highaltitude.log.20140115

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[03:29] <cats7896> Hi I am back!
[03:29] <cats7896> LOL
[03:37] <adwiens> hey
[03:37] <cats7896> hey
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[04:37] <MLow> dominoex seems to decode really poorly compared to rtty
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[04:55] <Darkside> MLow: then you have your implementation of dominoEX wrong
[04:55] <Darkside> it requires fairly accurate timing and frquency shifts
[04:55] <MLow> possible
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[05:13] <MLow> seems hard to do with an arduino
[05:14] <Darkside> its doable
[05:14] <Darkside> you just dont use delays
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[06:06] <MLow> alright so im trying out upu's rtty code
[06:06] <MLow> but im having a hard time figuring out how to get gps over serial, and transmit
[06:07] <MLow> because the rtty code uses delay, so if im trying to catch characters coming over serial it is obviously missing some
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[06:33] <wb8elk> adwiens, we launched a 300 pound rockoon from a boat in the Gulf of Mexico and also launched a rocket glider from a balloon as well. http://www.harcspace.com
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[06:47] <adwiens> 300 pounds?!
[06:47] <adwiens> wow
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[06:54] <cats7896> hi
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[06:56] <cats7896> what type of balloon is the best for first time?
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[06:58] <x-f> latex balloon - 600-1000g, depending on your payload weight
[06:58] <MLow> i got a 600 gram for like 50 bucks
[06:58] <MLow> the helium is the real cost
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[07:00] <cats7896> I see, I am still working on the payload weight,
[07:02] <cats7896> when it pops how do I find it? I know there is gps, but what us the best way APRS?
[07:03] <MLow> in the uk i dont think you can use aprs
[07:05] <x-f> he's from California, iirc
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[07:06] <x-f> you can buy ready-made APRS trackers, not that i would encourage that, it is much more fun to build your own tracker
[07:08] <cats7896> ok, Have there been any APRS HAB attempts?
[07:08] <x-f> if you are a licenced radio amateur, you can use 70cm UKHAS style trackers in the US and have it on spacenear.us with all the other goodies
[07:08] <x-f> sure, very many
[07:10] <cats7896> alright, and yes I am an licensed radio amateur.
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[07:13] <x-f> in Europe we mostly use licence-exempt ISM transmitters with 10mW power
[07:14] <x-f> that seems like nothing but actually is good to receive telemetry for 600+ km
[07:14] <cats7896> so 10mw works?
[07:14] <x-f> then we have the distributed listener network - people with radios that receive the telemetry, decode it and upload to the central server
[07:14] <x-f> yep
[07:15] <x-f> UKHAS wiki has it all covered - http://ukhas.org.uk/
[07:15] <cats7896> alright
[07:16] <cats7896> I would use a 5w transmitter for my aprs on 2 meters
[07:17] <cats7896> also I will look at ukhas for more info
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[07:21] <cats7896> are there aprs gps units that work at high altitudes? because I know in the us not many gps's work over 60 thousand feet,
[07:23] <x-f> high altitude ballooners mostly use GPS with Ublox chipsets - if they are put in a certain mode, they are good up to 50 km altitude
[07:24] <cats7896> then when it falls back and it get to 50 km it is tracked again?
[07:24] <x-f> 50 km is 164000 feet
[07:25] <x-f> balloons don't get that high anyway
[07:25] <x-f> i know BigRedBee APRS trackers have been flown on HAB, but that's about it i can help you with APRS, i'm not familiar with this system
[07:26] <cats7896> ok well all you have said has helped!
[07:27] <cats7896> what kind of gps, how do I find the payload once it goes up?
[07:30] <x-f> UKHAS standard is to continously transmit telemetry over the radio - get data from the GPS and sensors (if you have them), form a telemetry sentence, transmit it
[07:31] <x-f> volunteers on the ground receive it, decode it, upload to the server, and you can see the track on http://spacenear.us/tracker
[07:32] <x-f> that website will also display you a live prediction based on the latest data so you will know where will it land to get there quickly
[07:33] <x-f> some have seen their payloads landing
[07:33] <x-f> once the balloon is off the ground you will be able to track it for the most of the time, so you will know where your balloon is and what it is doing
[07:34] <x-f> but you have to listen on the radio and have a computer while chasing it, of course
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[07:35] <cats7896> That is cool, and its done by a 70cm system on ssb?
[07:35] <x-f> you should just join this chatroom when there is a flight going on
[07:35] <x-f> correct
[07:36] <cats7896> alright, what is up with the red balloon SP3OSJ it looks like it is not moving?
[07:36] <cats7896> or it is just slow
[07:37] <x-f> it was three days ago
[07:37] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> Upu
[07:37] <x-f> that was a "pico" flight - tiny tracker under a party balloon
[07:37] <adwiens> mylar?
[07:37] <x-f> they don't get high but can float around for days
[07:38] <x-f> yes
[07:38] <cats7896> ok cool
[07:38] <adwiens> how did it work?
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[07:38] <x-f> that particular one probably burst or leaked at maximum altitude
[07:39] <cats7896> when is the next flight?
[07:40] <x-f> don't know, i see no scheduled flights for now
[07:41] <adwiens> cats, are you in the us?
[07:41] <cats7896> yes
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[07:42] <cats7896> California
[07:43] <cats7896> Why do you ask?
[07:44] <adwiens> im also in the us, also probably building a payload and launching it sometime in the next few months
[07:44] <adwiens> im in Atlanta
[07:46] <cats7896> cool, in the us do we need permission from the faa? to launch? I need to look in to that.
[07:46] <adwiens> FAA part 101 regulations
[07:47] <adwiens> if your payload exceeds certain limits you have to get permission
[07:47] <cats7896> yea I knew that, I just did not know the part
[07:47] <cats7896> I think it is like 6 pounds
[07:47] <adwiens> yeah something like that
[07:48] <adwiens> i launched two in the midwest that were about 7 lbs, permission was just a phone call a few weeks in advance basically
[07:48] <adwiens> very heavy payloads... heh
[07:49] <cats7896> nice, so you have done this before? Do you have any youtube videos of the flight?
[07:49] <adwiens> but those were launched very far from airports, they told me its usually harder or impossible if you try to launch near a city
[07:49] <adwiens> if your payload is that big
[07:49] <adwiens> ya sec...
[07:50] <adwiens> http://adwiens.com/projects/ensure/1/index.html
[07:50] <adwiens> http://adwiens.com/projects/ensure/2/index.html
[07:51] <cats7896> ok, I live about 20 miles from a private airport and about 20 miles from the Pacific Ocean so a water landing is possible if I launched from home
[07:51] <cats7896> Thanks
[07:52] <x-f> cats7896, do you know about the predictor?
[07:52] <cats7896> no what is it
[07:52] <x-f> http://predict.habhub.org/
[07:53] <x-f> a tool from gods :)
[07:53] <UpuWork> morning all
[07:53] <x-f> morning
[07:53] <UpuWork> I saw your launches adwiens last night
[07:53] <UpuWork> quite impressively large
[07:54] <UpuWork> I think this was it landing : http://i.imgur.com/36s5f.gif
[07:54] <cats7896> x-f Thanks I will use that when I am ready to launch !
[07:54] <adwiens> hahaha
[07:54] <cats7896> LOL
[07:56] <UpuWork> very impressive though
[07:56] <UpuWork> old school
[07:56] <UpuWork> :)
[07:56] <UpuWork> we have the weight down quite considerably now
[07:57] <adwiens> thanks! ya it was a while back, that was high school and I'm in grad school now
[07:57] <UpuWork> going to do another one ?
[07:57] <adwiens> yes, i'd like to build a tiny aprs tracker this time
[07:57] <cats7896> I want to use aprs also
[07:58] <UpuWork> Leo has an APRS tracker battery and the lot in about 10g
[07:58] <adwiens> wow thats really impressive
[07:58] <adwiens> is there a link?
[07:59] <UpuWork> Have a look at these links
[07:59] <UpuWork> http://www.leobodnar.com/balloons/
[07:59] <UpuWork> this is my version : http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=675
[07:59] <adwiens> oh wait I saw that, didn't realize it was aprs though
[07:59] <UpuWork> yeah both of these can do APRS as well
[07:59] <UpuWork> 20mW but its enough
[08:00] <adwiens> is the modulation in software then?
[08:00] <UpuWork> yup
[08:00] <UpuWork> and the filtering is dubious
[08:00] <adwiens> pwm?
[08:00] <UpuWork> not sure I've not implemented it yet but I don't think so
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[08:00] <UpuWork> not crystal pulling anyway
[08:01] <adwiens> i'd like to do something like what he's done but on 2m instead of 70cm
[08:01] <adwiens> it seems like most of the available tiny radios on the market are in the ism bands though
[08:01] <UpuWork> you might find your PCB size comes down some :)
[08:02] <UpuWork> well you can stick a Radiometrix HX1 on an Arduino and you're done
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[08:02] <adwiens> yah but thats boring :)
[08:02] <UpuWork> the SI4464 chip goes to 100mW and down to 144Mhz so you can use that too
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[08:03] Action: adwiens looks up si4464
[08:03] <UpuWork> I use the SI4060 on my board
[08:04] <adwiens> are you using the built in modulator or are you modulating the crystal?
[08:05] <UpuWork> built in sort of I'm just currently stepping the channel to get DominoEX/Thor/RTTY
[08:06] <cats7896> yeasu makes a small radio, I think it is a 2m 70cm radio, yeasu vx 3r
[08:07] <UpuWork> doesn't do SSB ?
[08:08] <cats7896> I do not know
[08:08] <UpuWork> adwiens I made a piss take image a while back but its not so piss take now after seeing that payload you launched : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/Funny/pico.jpg
[08:10] <x-f> Windows 2000 payload :)
[08:10] <cats7896> I don't think it does ssb but I will look in to it
[08:10] <adwiens> hey helium was cheap in 2006 :P
[08:11] <adwiens> lol thats hilarious
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[08:12] <daveake> UpuWork Your image just needs a cooling fan, then it's complete
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[08:13] <cats7896> adwiens how was the live feed on ensure 2? and did you use atv fast scan?
[08:14] <adwiens> ya it was fast scan, it didn't work though
[08:14] <adwiens> the transmitter and amplifier were not impedance matched properly
[08:15] <cats7896> I see, in theory it worked
[08:16] <adwiens> yeah it worked for the first few hundred feet, the rest of the flight was snow
[08:16] <adwiens> there was an onboard video recorder though
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[08:22] <adwiens> i'm really tempted to call my next balloon picoAmericur 1...
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[08:22] <cats7896> I need to name my project
[08:23] <cats7896> So the gps2rtty look cool
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[08:24] <UpuWork> lol
[08:24] <UpuWork> I support that adwiens :)
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[08:24] <adwiens> a silkscreened american flag on the pcb would be a nice touch too
[08:27] <UpuWork> Bald Eagle too
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[08:27] <adwiens> oh ya gps2rtty is what i was working on recently, it's pretty much ready to fly but i'd like to change it to transmit aprs on 2m
[08:28] <fsphil> are you not required by law to have a full US flag on the cord? and salute while launching?
[08:28] <adwiens> i just pulled the old radio from my first balloon project
[08:28] <adwiens> which is 70cm
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[08:30] <cats7896> yea I was thinking about using aprs also
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[08:42] <MLow> i just cant get the hang of this
[08:42] <MLow> ok so if i even plug in my gps to the arduino rx
[08:42] <MLow> the rtty starts to get messed up and sometimes it sends the raw gps NMEA strings over rtty
[08:43] <fsphil> are you using software serial?
[08:43] <UpuWork> this -----/\
[08:53] <WillDWork> hey UpuWork - are you keeping a log of frequency distribution of your sold NTX2B modules? I'd like a couple please and was curious as to a recommended freq
[08:54] <number10> staying away from 434.500 may be a good idea WillDWork
[08:55] <WillDWork> I think that's not on the list ;)
[09:02] <cats7896> what is a Unmanned Free Balloon?
[09:03] <daveake> Free = not tethered
[09:03] <daveake> unmanned should be obvious :)
[09:04] <cats7896> well yea I know what unmanned is and free, got it not tethered
[09:18] <UpuWork> Hi WillDWork
[09:18] <UpuWork> I'm recieving a new batch today
[09:18] <UpuWork> let me know what frequencies you're interested in
[09:24] <cats7896> Where is the best place to buy a HAB online?
[09:25] <UpuWork> which part of a HAB ?
[09:26] <UpuWork> do you mean the actual balloon ?
[09:27] <cats7896> yes the actual balloon
[09:27] <UpuWork> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Welcome.html
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[09:30] <cats7896> Thanks!
[09:31] <cats7896> Do you know if they ship international?
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[09:32] <YO9ICT> mornin'
[09:32] <cats7896> morning!
[09:34] <UpuWork> I think he does yes cats7896
[09:34] <cats7896> ok
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[10:21] <ibanezmatt13> Hey UpuWork, I'm attempting to make the 1/4 wave antenna today :) Following the method we used last time as on the Wiki, it's a much better way of doing it I think
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[10:27] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi ibanezmatt13
[10:27] <ibanezmatt13> Hi Steve, how's things?
[10:28] <Steve_G0TDJ> Pretty good. Just testing VAYU-NTX for a launch next week
[10:28] <ibanezmatt13> very good, look forward to watching it
[10:28] <Steve_G0TDJ> All going well with NORB?
[10:29] <ibanezmatt13> balloon wise yeah. Box is made, making antenna today. Technically we'll be ready for launch by the end of today
[10:29] <Steve_G0TDJ> Coolio :-)
[10:29] <Steve_G0TDJ> My launch, subject to the usual weather, will be next Tues evening around 7:30 - 8:30
[10:29] <Steve_G0TDJ> pm
[10:33] <Reb-SM3ULC> Steve_G0TDJ: aiming for specfic trajectory?
[10:34] <Steve_G0TDJ> Not really, its a demo for my local radio club
[10:36] <Steve_G0TDJ> Predicted path showing SE towards France which is ideal if it remains so
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[11:03] <Hix> is it possible to upgrade ubuntu on a headless server via ssh? Tried this morning, all went well until ssh went down, reconnected and seems its as it was
[11:04] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[11:07] <WillDWork> I'd use a screen session Hix
[11:07] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: http://www.co2cartridges.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=227&category=944
[11:07] <Laurenceb_> RCS power source :P
[11:08] <Hix> cheers WillDWork will look into that option
[11:10] <WillDWork> ctrl-a-d to detach and leave it running, and you can login later with calling screen -r
[11:11] <Maxell> UpuWork: about the THOR fec: I had some fades due buidlings, and as soon as the signal was decoding, it decoded 100%
[11:12] <Hix> cheers WillDWork going down for reboot now - so will disconnect socks + IRC
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[11:13] <UpuWork> excellent thx Maxell
[11:13] <UpuWork> I think I'll use it again
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[11:16] <ibanezmatt13> braid stumps tinned UpuWork :)
[11:18] <UpuWork> jolly good
[11:19] <ibanezmatt13> oops, just realised I've not thought that well about how I'm going to get the antenna to slide down the hole I cut for it with radials sticking out... Let me think
[11:19] <ibanezmatt13> I'll see if it's possible to get it up from the bottom
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[11:20] <Maxell> UpuWork: it felt mor binary, too bad I didn't watch the fading of it
[11:20] <Maxell> it was very stable
[11:20] <UpuWork> yes the radio worked well
[11:21] <UpuWork> will be testing a lipo + solar circuit this evening
[11:21] <UpuWork> http://i.imgur.com/vltDI9R.jpg
[11:21] <Maxell> great!
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[11:28] <Babs_> ibanezmatt13 - can you pop a thin straw down the hole first and then thread the antenna through? it should go through a straw pretty easily
[11:29] <eroomde> where is the solar cell?
[11:29] <fsphil> or put the antenna and radials in the straw, and slide that through
[11:30] <UpuWork> eroomde subsituted with a bench PSU
[11:30] <UpuWork> current limited
[11:30] <UpuWork> ofc
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[11:32] <eroomde> ok. what does the solar circuit do?
[11:33] <eroomde> does it do max power point tracking?
[11:33] <fsphil> won't be able to test it much today. my home PV system just came on 30 minutes ago
[11:34] <Hix> speaking of bench psu's I inherited an old laptop psu 20V @8.5A - could I use this as the basis for a variable voltage / current psu?
[11:34] <fsphil> peak output, 2 watts
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[11:34] <eroomde> Hix: probably not all that much
[11:34] <LazyLeopard> PV system generating interference?
[11:34] <eroomde> i mean, it won't be a decent lab PSU
[11:34] <Hix> ok
[11:35] <eroomde> but it could be useful as a supply of DC power
[11:35] <eroomde> you can get off-the-shelf SMPS units that can make useful voltages from that kind of power
[11:37] <UpuWork> yes eroomde
[11:37] <UpuWork> http://www.st.com/web/catalog/sense_power/FM142/CL1810/SC1517/PF251161
[11:37] <UpuWork> that charges
[11:37] <UpuWork> and then there is an LDO to step down to 1.8V
[11:37] <UpuWork> on that board
[11:38] <eroomde> everything all integrated into one brick for you
[11:38] <eroomde> nice
[11:39] <fsphil> yea that's a nice chip
[11:40] <fsphil> not even that expensive
[11:41] <UpuWork> nope
[11:42] <UpuWork> very cheap as Leo send me 10 :)
[11:42] <eroomde> oh yeah peanuts
[11:42] <eroomde> $4 for one
[11:42] <eroomde> not bad for a chip that does quite a lot
[11:43] <eroomde> electronics is like lego now
[11:43] <eroomde> it's amazing
[11:44] <UpuWork> I think Leo foudn them for $0.97 each
[11:44] <UpuWork> anyway will test the circuit tonight
[11:44] <UpuWork> there was a fault on the step down and a broken ground plane
[11:44] <UpuWork> which I've fixed
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[12:05] <ibanezmatt13> UpuWork: I can't seem to twist the two wires around the pencil to make the hole for the main element to go through :/
[12:10] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: in the engineering journal in the Times, there's a section on Reaction Engines
[12:11] <eroomde> what's it about?
[12:11] <eroomde> the recent press release?
[12:11] <ibanezmatt13> not sure, my Granddad just emailed me telling me about it. I've asked him to scan it through
[12:11] <ibanezmatt13> I'll send it on to you when I get it
[12:11] <eroomde> thanks
[12:11] <eroomde> suspect it might be as one was just released
[12:12] <ibanezmatt13> probably
[12:12] <fsphil> the air force one?
[12:12] <eroomde> yes
[12:13] <WillDWork> Americans slurping the tech?
[12:13] <WillDWork> sorry, I mean: helping out with testing
[12:14] <eroomde> guess just how much i can talk about it on an irc channel full of randoms
[12:14] <eroomde> divide that answer by 2
[12:14] <eroomde> and there you go
[12:14] <fsphil> divide by zero error
[12:14] <daveake> I read that as "air force one"
[12:14] <daveake> which would be interesting
[12:14] <fsphil> hah
[12:14] <ibanezmatt13> same here :)
[12:15] <ibanezmatt13> UpuWork: Is this ok? I can get the main element through fine, just making sure it's ok; http://sdrv.ms/KiGyKR
[12:16] <daveake> Get the coax through the hole then solder on the gp wires after
[12:16] <Babs_> ping daveake
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[12:16] <daveake> punged
[12:17] <Babs_> arf
[12:17] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I'm doing that next daveake, does it look ok though before I do that?
[12:17] <daveake> well I've seen tidier gps, but yes :)
[12:17] <ibanezmatt13> lol, so long as it works
[12:18] <fsphil> you'll note I didn't post any pictures of Orion's circuit
[12:18] <Babs_> wonder whether I could ask a favour. is it possible to take a picture of the front and back and your Rock Block and post it on flickr?/email it to me. I'm designing something, have the locations of the holes in the board but am a bit unclear what is sticking out of the board and where
[12:18] <Babs_> there appears to be two different designs on the interweb (which is confusing)
[12:19] <Babs_> one that looks like it has a couple of cells mated to it http://regmedia.co.uk/2012/11/27/rockblock_views.jpg
[12:19] <daveake> can do but not till the w/e as I'm away all week
[12:19] <Babs_> and one which doesn't http://regmedia.co.uk/2012/09/12/rockblock_01.jpg
[12:19] <Babs_> ahh, no problem, not urgent
[12:20] <Babs_> just want to see whether i can get it in the thing I am designing before i buy it
[12:20] <daveake> Not seen any without the supercaps
[12:21] <Babs_> as in the second one? its off the register so it might even be yours
[12:21] <daveake> Those, however, are so it can run from USB even though needing >500mA peak. If it's connected directly to Lithiums then shouldn't need the supercaps
[12:21] <Babs_> (second picture)
[12:22] <daveake> I didn't send Lester any pics of the Rockblock so dunno where he got that from
[12:23] <Babs_> ok, no problems to wait. i might give them a ring too. It has to rotate in a frame so the vertical dimensions are significant but I haven't got anywhere doing it by eye
[12:23] <Babs_> thanks daveake
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[13:03] <Laurenceb> http://laserpointerforums.com/attachments/f42/26874d1273869669-micro-stepper-motors-bluray-sleds-plextor-2012x-20sled.jpg
[13:03] <Laurenceb> omg
[13:04] <Laurenceb> blueray/dvd/cd/r etc optics is kind of complex
[13:05] <Darkside> a bit, eh
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[13:07] <jonsowman> yes
[13:08] <mattbrejza> no
[13:08] <tweetBot> @Project_HAB: Launch Announcement. VAYU-NTX HAB from B'heath 21st Jan 20:00 434.450MHz 50bd 7n2 450Hz Shift. More details: http://t.co/MeSPwVRgXi #ukhas
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[13:14] <jonsowman> stupid ssh
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[13:18] <eroomde> best of luck Steve_G0TDJ
[13:18] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cheers Ed :-)
[13:18] <eroomde> good demo :)
[13:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> I hope so. Perhaps the weather will be with me
[13:19] <eroomde> v close to where jcoxon livess
[13:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yes, I'd love him to come along to the club if he can
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[13:29] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
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[13:43] <ibanezmatt13> here it is: http://sdrv.ms/1d6neaC
[13:43] <Steve_G0TDJ> Nice work
[13:43] <ibanezmatt13> not the neatest of jobs, hot glue looks naf, but as far as I can tell, everything should work
[13:43] <ibanezmatt13> thanks :)
[13:43] <eroomde> nice work
[13:43] <Steve_G0TDJ> Doesn't have to look good - just work :-)
[13:43] <ibanezmatt13> exactly
[13:44] <eroomde> though things that look good often work well
[13:44] <ibanezmatt13> oh and by the way, I strongly dislike coaxial cable now... :P
[13:44] <ibanezmatt13> true eroomde
[13:44] <eroomde> if it looks right, it flies right
[13:44] <eroomde> coaxial cable is a pleasure to work with
[13:44] <eroomde> wiringing in general
[13:44] <eroomde> *but* you really need someone to show you how to do it all
[13:44] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GIscUsnlM0 -- dave jones plays with breadboard
[13:44] <ibanezmatt13> thankfully I have had that training :)
[13:44] <eroomde> i've had that from james here in the last two years, now i get quite excited by doing a nice wiring job
[13:45] <eroomde> it's a sort of craftmasnship thing over which you can take a lot of pride
[13:45] <ibanezmatt13> I feel very pleased now that I have done it. You forget about taking pride sometimes during a frustrating part, but now I'm very pleased :)
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[13:48] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: And the NORB quarter wave antenna is complete! Bit messy, but if it works its perfect :D #ukhas #NearOrbit http://t.co/LygMGM21Ky
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[13:48] <ibanezmatt13> that was fast Steve_G0TDJ :)
[13:49] <Steve_G0TDJ> :-) Spotted, Re-tweeted
[13:49] <gonzo__> soldering nylon dielectric coax to pcb's is a pain. ptfe based stuff is nicer
[13:49] <gonzo__> and anythuing involving PL259's is hateful
[13:49] <mfa298> doing a good job with pretty much form of wiring comes with practice and experience.
[13:49] <gonzo__> that prob covers most coax woes
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[13:51] <ibanezmatt13> that's the last thing off the 4 page checklist for our launch.
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[13:51] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[13:53] <ibanezmatt13> for the main element, where exactly should you measure from to check it's 164mm long? Should you measure from the ground plane where the 4 radials are?
[13:54] <ibanezmatt13> from there it is 163.9mm
[13:55] <Darkside> close enough
[13:55] <mfa298> I'd go from where the driven element seperates from the radials (which is hopefully close to where the the outer insulation stops
[13:55] <Babs_> when it exits the shielding
[13:55] <ibanezmatt13> ok well it leaves the shielding as it goes through the bit where the radials are attached
[13:55] <ibanezmatt13> should be fine, hard to explain
[13:56] <Babs_> ibanezmatt13 - don't worry about the neatness, mine had only 3 radials and transmitted fine
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[13:56] <mfa298> as long as things are within a couple of mm shouldn't make a huge difference (would probably still do a reasonable job if it was within a couple of cm)
[13:56] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I think it's fine Babs_, will certainly do the job I think. Is there a set length the radials should be? They're not all equal at the mo, may need trimming
[13:57] <Babs_> they are approximating an infinite ground plane
[13:57] <mfa298> ideally similar length to the driven element or a bit longer.
[13:58] <Babs_> so ideally infinite, but their approximation to an infinite ground plane gets ~100% when they extend beyond the driven element
[13:58] <ibanezmatt13> ok, and I measure the radials from the point they leave the main element?
[13:58] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok
[13:58] <Babs_> *babs gets ready to get his radio theory shot down
[13:59] <mfa298> best method for making any antenna is to make the elements a bit longer then trim to length (ideally with an antenna analyzer or transmitter and swr meter)
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[13:59] <ibanezmatt13> So 3 of them are around 170mm ish, one of them is a tad under that
[13:59] <craag> Babs_: Close enough :)
[14:00] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298: I didn't realise the radials should be slightly longer, I think it'll be ok though
[14:00] <Babs_> my foundation radio course was not in vain then
[14:00] <ibanezmatt13> mikestir: ping
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[14:03] <craag> radial length is not vital. Just get it as close as you can to 4 equally-spaced of same length as the radiating element and you should be fine. If you're worried, do a range test from a hill before launching.
[14:04] <ibanezmatt13> that's exactly the test I'm doing craag :)
[14:04] <craag> :)
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[14:18] <Hix> balls - updated to 13.04 and now have the grey vnc screen again :/
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[14:21] <eroomde> nice
[14:25] <Hix> anyone have the stock xstartup for 13.04? I've got 3 variants and none work
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[14:27] <eroomde> this is on the ebays
[14:27] <eroomde> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FARNELL-MODEL-L30-2-30V-2-Amp-BENCH-POWER-SUPPLY-/370969659163?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item565f83c71b
[14:27] <eroomde> good price if anyone is in the market for such a ting
[14:28] <ibanezmatt13> that looks nice
[14:28] <SiC> looks expensive to me
[14:29] <SiC> we used to have them at uni
[14:29] <SiC> even they threw it out
[14:29] <SiC> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thurlby-30V-2A-Variable-Workshop-Bench-DC-Power-Supply-PSU-PL320-/231125706363?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Other&hash=item35d02a667b
[14:29] <SiC> thats a better buy
[14:29] <SiC> you don't have to short the input to set the current limit either
[14:30] <SiC> seem a save search on ebay for TTI and there are often good buys up
[14:31] <SiC> I bought a TTI EX354 (dual 35v @ 4a) for £90 shipped a couple of years ago
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[14:32] <eroomde> why did they throw it out?
[14:32] <eroomde> those all ones are usually pretty good
[14:33] <eroomde> that's a single one
[14:33] <SiC> age, they upgraded to TTI EX-series (different ones in differnt labs)
[14:33] <eroomde> that you linked to
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[14:33] <SiC> yup, but a much better psu
[14:33] <SiC> not having a setable constant current with a screen is a deal breaker for me
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[14:34] <SiC> and thats digital too, which makes setting the current+voltage much easier
[14:34] <SiC> schematics are around for the PL320 too, its all discrete components so dead easy to fix (had to fix mine a couple years ago after the output transistor stage died)
[14:35] <eroomde> there aren't that many psu's whose display i'd trust to 2 decimal places
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[14:35] <SiC> this tti is accurate
[14:35] <SiC> according to my cal'ed fluke
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[14:35] <SiC> iirc, that farnell psu was made by thurlby thandar originally
[14:36] <SiC> just to put an age on that farnell psu, the ones at uni we had "Bristol Polytechnic" engraved on it
[14:36] <SiC> (not saying old is bad, but there is better kit for that sort of money around imo)
[14:36] <eroomde> yeah, your rs one looks jus like a farnell one i have
[14:37] <eroomde> i dunno, most of the modern psu's for £100ish a crap
[14:37] <eroomde> eg all the chinese stuff like tenma
[14:37] <SiC> yea my pl320 isn't actually branded rs at all, just thurlby
[14:38] <SiC> yea, thats why a mid 90's to mid 2000's are a better buy
[14:38] <eroomde> yeah
[14:38] <SiC> I'd never buy a chinese crap psu, when you can get stuff like thurlbys cheap
[14:38] <SiC> iirc, that thurlby is still made, or only just discontinued
[14:38] <eroomde> i think my farnell must be a thurlby unit
[14:39] <SiC> ah the pl320 is discontinued
[14:39] <SiC> replaced by http://uk.farnell.com/aim-tti-instruments/el302r/psu-30v-2a/dp/1670779?whydiditmatch=rel_3&matchedProduct=pl320
[14:39] <eroomde> never used one
[14:39] <SiC> often see them in electronics labs in companies up and down the uk
[14:39] <craag> Those EL302s are the ones we have in Uni labs
[14:39] <eroomde> i have a triple output hameg, this old farnell, and a pair of agilent 6632b's for when i need niceness
[14:39] <SiC> and in unis
[14:40] <SiC> yea the uni used to have hamegs before they chucked them out
[14:40] <SiC> no output voltage switch though :|
[14:40] <SiC> again, a deal breaker for me
[14:40] <eroomde> the new tti?
[14:40] <SiC> no, on the old hameg
[14:40] <craag> I've got an an old Weir unit with an IBA asset sticker on it :P
[14:40] <eroomde> oh
[14:40] <SiC> the tti all have output switches
[14:40] <eroomde> the new hameg's do
[14:41] <eroomde> i'm v impressed with ours
[14:41] <eroomde> the output is very stable, and the response is fast and doesn't overshoot
[14:41] <eroomde> aswell as being nice to use
[14:41] <eroomde> was designed by someone who knew what they were doing
[14:41] <SiC> yea
[14:41] <SiC> unlike a lot of the chinese shite
[14:42] <eroomde> even into horribly reactice loads it was almost as good as my 6632b
[14:42] <SiC> even the rigols (which usually are good design) have a bit crap design on their adjustable psu
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[14:42] <SiC> https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5r46kzabtynfjt/2014-01-15%2014.41.20.jpg
[14:42] <SiC> my pair :)
[14:42] <eroomde> yeah the chinese shite is garbage. the output transistors are just naively paralleled up such that it's only a matter of time before you get a thermal runaway
[14:43] <SiC> the ex354 is switching, while the pl320 is linear
[14:43] <SiC> you can tell by the weight!
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[14:43] <eroomde> likewise the agilents
[14:43] <eroomde> i still don't really trust rigol stuff
[14:43] <eroomde> yet
[14:44] <eroomde> i know the scopes are probably the best you can get on a hobby budget, but there are too many undocumented, or poorly documented traps
[14:44] <eroomde> eg i borrowed one of their siggens, and the output power wasn't constant during a sweep
[14:44] <eroomde> garbage
[14:44] <SiC> ya
[14:44] <SiC> I've got the rigol ds1052, not bad scope for the price
[14:45] <SiC> does its job ok
[14:45] <SiC> I do need to upgrade it though
[14:45] <eroomde> just sufficiently quirky that you can't rely on them. i want to know it's a problem with my pcb design, not the test equipment
[14:45] <SiC> the new rigol 2000-series look very good value
[14:45] <SiC> yea
[14:45] <eroomde> yeah, just got a rigol 3034
[14:45] <eroomde> 3004*
[14:45] <eroomde> it's really good
[14:45] <SiC> I guess you've seen the unluck hacks around?
[14:46] <eroomde> 4ch, 400MHz bw, 16ch LA, and about 1/2 the price of the equivalent agilent
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[14:46] <SiC> 3004?
[14:46] <eroomde> however, they're dropping the prices on agilents atm
[14:46] <eroomde> i assume a new gen is coming
[14:46] <SiC> name change too
[14:46] <eroomde> yeah HMO3004
[14:46] <eroomde> yes that's a bit stupid
[14:46] <eroomde> but whatever
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[14:46] <SiC> hmo? thats hameg isnt it?
[14:46] <eroomde> oh sorry i totally misread
[14:46] <SiC> lol
[14:47] <eroomde> or rather my brain mis-mapped
[14:47] <SiC> are hameg owned (or own) R&S?
[14:47] <eroomde> yes it's a hameg scope
[14:47] <eroomde> yes
[14:47] <SiC> or just resold by them
[14:47] <SiC> ah
[14:47] <eroomde> wned fully
[14:47] <eroomde> it's basically the R&S value line now
[14:48] <fsphil> should have one tomorrow
[14:48] <eroomde> i've been impressed with the couple of new (since R&S) stuff of theirs
[14:48] <eroomde> that i've used
[14:49] <eroomde> i'm basically using work stuff and building up my own stuff slowly as ebay allows
[14:49] <SiC> yea
[14:49] <SiC> thats what I did
[14:49] <eroomde> mostly HP and R&S stuff, when there's a bargain
[14:49] <fsphil> we don't have any good supplies at work
[14:49] <SiC> now work for myself, so I have to really justify purchases!
[14:49] <eroomde> i'm really chuffed with the 6632b's
[14:49] <fsphil> infact the other guy here couldn't understand why I paid so much for a psu
[14:50] <SiC> thats why my next scope is probably going to be a rigol
[14:50] <eroomde> they're such an amazing psu, and you can get them for £120 now
[14:50] <eroomde> fsphil: you didn't pay much!
[14:50] <eroomde> it's linear output too
[14:50] <eroomde> so it'll be as smooth as a
[14:50] <eroomde> ...
[14:50] <eroomde> whatever
[14:50] <fsphil> smooth thing
[14:50] <SiC> butter
[14:50] <SiC> :p
[14:51] <eroomde> the only bad thing about the agilents is the fan
[14:51] <SiC> yea
[14:51] <eroomde> which is why i like the hameg for 90% of the time
[14:51] <SiC> both of these tti's are fanless
[14:52] <eroomde> and the agilents are for when i want to increase the supply by 1mV and expect it to therefore increase by 1mV
[14:52] <eroomde> they also sink!
[14:52] <eroomde> which is nice
[14:52] <SiC> thats good, a lot of psus dont
[14:52] <eroomde> yeah
[14:52] <eroomde> they're amazing for the money
[14:52] <eroomde> just take up lots of space
[14:52] <SiC> lol, like my spectrum anaylser here
[14:52] <eroomde> their rrp is like £1.7k or some madness like that. just glad there seems to be a seam of them on ebay for cheap atm
[14:53] <SiC> anything decent value is huge and heavy
[14:53] <eroomde> must be some huge factory having its assets stripped or something
[14:53] <SiC> *decent value / affordable
[14:53] <eroomde> i've got my eye on a R&S ZVL this year
[14:53] <SiC> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AGILENT-HP-6632B-Bench-DC-Power-Supply-0-20VOLT-5-AMP-Programmable-/350957363663?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item51b6b061cf
[14:53] <SiC> yours I guess
[14:53] <eroomde> would be the bigest test equipment purchase i've ever done
[14:54] <eroomde> those are the beasties
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[15:06] <adwiens> This chip looks awesome http://www.silabs.com/products/wireless/wirelessmcu/Pages/si106x-8x.aspx
[15:07] <eroomde> 8051 core
[15:07] <adwiens> So?
[15:08] <eroomde> old-school
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[15:10] <adwiens> Yes but built in boost converter for 0.9 v operation, there are models for pretty much every band from 142mhz to 1ghz, output power up to 20dbm, built in uart...
[15:10] <adwiens> you can replace most of the chips on a tracker with just one
[15:11] <eroomde> i know
[15:11] <eroomde> we built a tracker with a ti cc1110
[15:11] <eroomde> 8051 + re cofre
[15:11] <eroomde> some the same deal
[15:11] <eroomde> rf core*
[15:11] <adwiens> oh so you've done something like that
[15:11] <eroomde> yes
[15:11] <adwiens> didn't like it?
[15:12] <eroomde> usually not as power efficient is a modern mcu archicture with optimised code + separate radio
[15:12] <eroomde> 8051 is pretty ropey
[15:12] <eroomde> and we had to use the small-devices-compiler-collection
[15:12] <adwiens> i was under the impression there are many different 8051 cores
[15:12] <eroomde> sdcc
[15:12] <eroomde> which was a joke
[15:12] <adwiens> using the same instruction set
[15:13] <eroomde> well probably there are, but i don't ever see any of them hold a candle to, say, MSP430 for lower power
[15:14] <eroomde> on the right there
[15:14] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3887350096/in/set-72157621846323425
[15:14] <eroomde> is the one based on the cc1110
[15:15] <adwiens> what's the huge chip on the lower right?
[15:15] <eroomde> 'new generation' lol
[15:15] <eroomde> half a decade old
[15:15] <eroomde> venus gps
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[15:15] <adwiens> ok
[15:15] <eroomde> a decentish but not especially exciting gps chipset
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[15:16] <adwiens> what are some of the lowest power gps chips you've seen?
[15:16] <adwiens> that are good for hab of course
[15:16] <eroomde> ublox has basically won the midshare here
[15:16] <eroomde> ublox max7c for example
[15:16] <eroomde> 1.8V, about 8mA continuous in 1Hz tracking mode
[15:16] <eroomde> iirc
[15:16] <eroomde> and obviously lower if you do more elaborate power saving
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[15:17] <adwiens> whoa that c1110 is a hog, 31 ma in TX mode
[15:17] <adwiens> wow
[15:19] <eroomde> unless you're space constrained i'd just have a separate mcu and rf bit
[15:19] <adwiens> yeah?
[15:19] <adwiens> just because the 8051 or is there another reason?
[15:20] <adwiens> a single chip solution would be just really slick
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Single chip is only great if it helps.
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> In many cases, it won't be optimised the way you want, or may be considerably harder to program.
[15:23] <mikestir> I'm contemplating a max7c/freescale kl05/si4060 combo to play with some picos. whether I will get time to make it is another matter
[15:24] <mikestir> the kl05 is so cheap and low power though, especially for ARM
[15:24] <craag> kl*5s are nice
[15:25] <craag> I'm playing with the kl25s, just trying to find a project that demands them!
[15:26] <mikestir> I evaluated one of the higher end kinetis parts in work recently - they're nice
[15:26] <mikestir> potentially even better than stm32
[15:26] <eroomde> it's partly 8051, it's partly that single-chip is slick if you want to fit it onto a postage stamp
[15:26] <eroomde> but you usually don't
[15:27] <eroomde> usually for situations where you need lightweight, the trade usually ends up being lower power rather than smaller pcb
[15:27] <eroomde> for a given total system weight for a given flying life
[15:27] <eroomde> eg people can get 30ish hours now with a single AAA battery
[15:28] <eroomde> and being able to then get plenty of time on just one AAA battery is usually a bigger saving than saving yourself 1g of extra chip and pcb
[15:30] <adwiens> okay so power and dev toolchain being equal the single chip is better, otherwise split it up
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[15:31] <eroomde> better if it helps you solve a problem, sure
[15:31] <eroomde> that's really my only metric
[15:32] <eroomde> a think a lot of the low power mania would dissappear overnight if there was a source of 2m dia super-pressure capacble balloons
[15:32] <eroomde> for example
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[15:33] <eroomde> as suddenly you can have a lot more payload so you don't have to give up on loads of interesting engineering (temps, pressures, inside and out etc) just to get something that does the most basic hab-task possible
[15:33] <eroomde> i.e. merely tell you where it is
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> 1.99m :)
[15:33] <eroomde> i don't really see what the point of that is even
[15:33] <eroomde> but i'm in a minority on that one
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> I agree, largely.
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> (though it is fun)
[15:34] <eroomde> see i differ on the latter
[15:34] <eroomde> i find new stuff fun
[15:34] <eroomde> if something has been done before and there's not much to learn from doing it again, i literally don't find it fun
[15:35] <adwiens> so to be clear though, nobody has tried the Si106x/8x chips yet?
[15:36] <eroomde> don't know i'm afriad
[15:36] <adwiens> i haven't seen a single chip 2m tracker done yet
[15:36] <adwiens> idk, i think that would be really cool.
[15:37] <eroomde> leobodnar did a nice 2m aprs payload
[15:38] <eroomde> http://www.leobodnar.com/balloons/B-15/Pages/1.html
[15:38] <eroomde> that wasn't the aprs one but i think the hardware was basically the same
[15:39] <eroomde> http://www.leobodnar.com/balloons/B-14/Pages/1.html
[15:39] <eroomde> my fun thing is not generally true
[15:39] <eroomde> like, i enjoy playing the piano
[15:39] <eroomde> and learning a piece
[15:39] <eroomde> i know i'm not going to push the world of piano forward in anyway, that there exist people much better than me
[15:39] <eroomde> but i still like the personal challenge
[15:40] <eroomde> but i don't really feel that with technical things
[15:40] <eroomde> dunno why really
[15:41] <aadamson> ok, for my new techie question of the day :)...
[15:41] <aadamson> I ultimately want to graph my si4463 board onto an stm32f303 board - this has a DAC output
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[15:41] <aadamson> so.... just thinking, would there be any advantage to bringing out the dac pin to control the vcxo?
[15:42] <eroomde> probably!
[15:42] <eroomde> i don't actually know what the response time of VCXOs is to an input step
[15:42] <eroomde> i'm assuming it's an xtal rather than some generic definition of a voltage controlled oscillator
[15:42] <aadamson> sheesh, I barely got along with PWM controlling it, I'm not sure I any clue on how to interface a dac to it... let me check
[15:42] <aadamson> it's an actual VCXO
[15:43] <aadamson> http://www.foxonline.com/pdfs/FVXO_HC53.pdf
[15:43] <aadamson> this one
[15:43] <eroomde> i'd have thought the dac would be a lot easier!
[15:43] <eroomde> no filter needed
[15:43] <aadamson> you would think... but
[15:44] <adwiens> yea i'd with eroomde
[15:44] <adwiens> i'm*
[15:44] <mikestir> you would still need an anti-imaging filter
[15:44] <aadamson> the vcxo wants vc at 1.65 (half 3v3) at no swing
[15:44] <mikestir> it won't need to be anywhere near as aggressive tho
[15:44] <adwiens> i'm new to this discussion, are you generating fm with a vcxo?
[15:45] <aadamson> so just hooking up the dac to the vc won't really help much or you'll only end up with 1/2 the dac range
[15:45] <aadamson> yes, fm from the vcxo
[15:45] <aadamson> is one thing it can do
[15:45] <eroomde> oh if it's fm rather than FSK then you def want a filter
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[15:46] <eroomde> i was assuming fsk, where i'd probably not bother with the filter, just except the ping every time you change the voltage each symbol
[15:46] <aadamson> I want to be able to do *anything* by changing components on the board :)
[15:46] <aadamson> cake and eat it too as they say :)
[15:46] <adwiens> im hear you
[15:46] <adwiens> ya cause then you can do any modes basically
[15:46] <adwiens> i*
[15:46] <adwiens> can't type
[15:46] <eroomde> jesus wept
[15:46] <eroomde> it uses some current
[15:47] <eroomde> modulation bandwidth is 10kHz - nice!
[15:48] <aadamson> btw, the dang pwm filter is a RPITA I have one, it's not very good, just using passive components...
[15:48] <mikestir> you should be able to get the required bias and swing with a resistor network
[15:48] <aadamson> I still see the 31.2khz through it...
[15:48] <aadamson> I have that already too mikestir :)
[15:48] <eroomde> make it active
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[15:49] <aadamson> I feed pwm into the VCXO as it is and I dc couple that (that was yesterdays discussion) and then have a 1/2 vcc voltage divider to keep it centered around 1.65v
[15:50] <aadamson> yeah eroomde I probably should do that... just working with a board I've done already so may think of a spin with that... anyone got a good design for an active filter?
[15:50] <eroomde> microchip's filterlab
[15:50] <eroomde> works fine in wine
[15:50] <eroomde> very good for designing active filters
[15:50] <eroomde> gives you schematics, bode plots, all sorts
[15:50] <eroomde> i use it all the time
[15:51] <mikestir> that hardwarebook.net has cookbook style recipes for sallen key filters
[15:51] <eroomde> you can get a little quad op-amp tssop-12 package and have a 4-pole beauty in hardly any board space
[15:51] <aadamson> advantage to a VCXO (and maybe a TVXCO) is that I can just not modulate the pwm and the vc will hold constant so it becomes a TCXO and then I can do the other modes etc... course VCXO frequency may be a limiting factor too
[15:51] <aadamson> eroomde, *thats* what I need to do :)
[15:52] <aadamson> I actually have a little space where I could put it
[15:52] <_Natio> Sup guys!
[15:52] <_Natio> Any projects live? :)
[15:55] <eroomde> don't think anything's up right now
[15:55] <eroomde> should be at the weekend tho
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[15:56] <adwiens> eroomde: how was the experience using sdcc?
[15:56] <adwiens> the small device compiler?
[15:58] <eroomde> horrible
[15:58] <eroomde> couldn't even multiply ints
[15:58] <eroomde> had to do it with shifts and adds
[15:59] <fsphil> burn it
[15:59] <mikestir> hmm I remember it being a bit basic, but not that bad!
[15:59] <eroomde> the firmware was written in a huge panic
[15:59] <eroomde> during the allnighter phase of our project
[16:00] <eroomde> i don't guarantee everything was done properly
[16:00] <eroomde> and i haven't launched a hab since that project, my position on hab being 'to hell with the lot of it' after that
[16:01] <eroomde> was a bit of a stress
[16:01] <eroomde> we did do uplinks with the cc1110 though
[16:01] <eroomde> by polling the RSSI register
[16:02] <WillTablet> Hello
[16:02] <eroomde> you don't get that level of awesome anywhere else, folks
[16:02] <craag> eroomde: To detect OOK?
[16:02] <eroomde> yes
[16:02] <mikestir> I used the silabs 8051s once (the mcu without the radio) - they're pretty good
[16:02] <eroomde> we invented an OOK mode
[16:02] <mikestir> for an 8051
[16:02] <craag> Ok.. hadn't thought of that :P
[16:03] <eroomde> 40W down a yagi pointing to the payload
[16:03] <eroomde> voila
[16:03] <eroomde> god it was bad
[16:03] <eroomde> that was for the mars parachute drop-test vehicle
[16:03] <adwiens> haha wow using rssi for ook is pretty clever
[16:03] <craag> heh, gotta be better than SHARP's one though!
[16:03] <eroomde> adwiens: 'clever'
[16:03] <adwiens> :)
[16:03] <eroomde> by which you mean 'horrible'
[16:03] <adwiens> yes
[16:04] <eroomde> anything is better than SHARP
[16:04] <fsphil> hah
[16:04] <adwiens> so is there no alu in the 8051 or something?
[16:04] <craag> That if it detected a carrier, but the command detection failed, it hard-froze the payload CPU.
[16:04] <fsphil> they flew with that?
[16:04] <craag> yep
[16:04] <fsphil> whoa
[16:04] <eroomde> everything about SHARP seemed like a bit of a disaster
[16:05] <fsphil> worse than I thought
[16:05] <adwiens> was that the name of the balloon?
[16:05] <eroomde> yes
[16:05] <eroomde> it also had a lot of people from SEDS in it
[16:05] <adwiens> link?
[16:05] <fsphil> it was a successful project, if the goal was to show how not to do it
[16:05] <eroomde> which is another group that i found a bit annoying
[16:05] <eroomde> everyone in it seems to be a proto-management consultant
[16:06] <eroomde> wanting to organize other people and Be In Charge of other people's projects
[16:06] <adwiens> ah yes, all chiefs no indians
[16:06] <fsphil> I guess there can be advantages to being a one man team
[16:06] <eroomde> they often wanted to collaborate with CUSF
[16:06] <craag> adwiens: They've taken down the website.
[16:06] <eroomde> which as far as i could tell meant taking credit for CUSF stuff
[16:07] <craag> It was an engineering Group Design Project.
[16:07] <eroomde> for nothing inreturn
[16:07] Action: fsphil tries to take down his memories
[16:07] <craag> hehe
[16:07] <eroomde> once on the internet, always on the internet
[16:07] <eroomde> c.f. Darkside
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[16:08] <craag> I got a payload slot on their last flight, under the strict instructions that I wasn't to distract them or get in the way during the launch.
[16:08] <craag> 30 minutes after arriving, they were asking me to give the go/no-go on their flight prediction.
[16:08] <eroomde> so you watched and learned instead
[16:08] <eroomde> i bet
[16:08] <craag> Oh, and the actual SHARP payload didn't fly on that one, as they couldn't get it to boot.
[16:09] <craag> But they already had the balloon inflated...
[16:10] <craag> eroomde: I got there, put the batteries in my payload, got the gas stove and chair out and just watched the fun and games :)
[16:10] <eroomde> made a bacon buttie?
[16:10] <craag> Nah, forgot the bacon that time :(
[16:11] <craag> Plenty of tea though
[16:12] <craag> 4 hours of tea iirc
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[16:18] <eroomde> :)
[16:18] <eroomde> i love business
[16:18] <eroomde> you do a prototype for someone
[16:19] <eroomde> lots of design work up front etc
[16:19] <eroomde> you spend ages putting together design files, getting cnc quotes, large parts lists, it all takes hours/days/weeks
[16:19] <eroomde> then a year later they ask for something identical
[16:19] <eroomde> and this time you just crank the handle as all the hardwork is already done
[16:20] <eroomde> and fill a swimming pool with the profit and then go and swim in it
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[16:21] <eroomde> better to sell products than hours, i guess
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[16:23] <Chetic> is there a cheap helium regulator? $75 seems ridiculous to me..
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[16:24] <eroomde> that is cheap
[16:24] <eroomde> anything involving the control of 200+bar stored gasses is proper industrical process control territory
[16:25] <eroomde> $75 is pencil shavings in that context
[16:25] <Chetic> yes well
[16:25] <Chetic> I happen to be a person
[16:25] <Chetic> :p
[16:25] <eroomde> i just paid twice that for a fitting to attach two high pressure pipes together
[16:26] <Chetic> I will try to use my Linde gas connections
[16:26] <eroomde> you could just use a tiny orifice
[16:27] <eroomde> to keep the flow rate low
[16:29] <Chetic> you mean turn the valve very little or some sort of makeshift adapter?
[16:29] <Chetic> regulator* (not adapter)
[16:30] <eroomde> it wouldn't be a regulator
[16:30] <eroomde> a regulator is a feedback device that maintains an output pressure
[16:31] <Chetic> ah
[16:31] <eroomde> this wouldn't be that, this would just be a tiny hole with the bottle pressure on one side
[16:31] <eroomde> as it comes out of the whole and expands, is pressure would drop a lot
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> You don't actually need a regulator.
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> As you can do it by hand effectively.
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> As long as the flow rate is sane, and you can control the turnoff
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> This isn't a critical application where +-10% of the flowrate may matter - 50+1000% may be fine
[16:33] <Chetic> it'd be nice with a regulator but I guess I'll just be really careful
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[16:39] <SpeedEvil> I don't know if directly using the cylinder valve is sane. I suspect probably not, even if you're very careful.
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Conwin-Carbonic-Regulator-for-Helium-Balloon-Filling-Industrial-use-/111250320224?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e7092b60 I note
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> Oh - broken - nvm
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[16:41] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Conwin-helium-balloon-gas-regulator-inflator-/321291783683?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Make_Up_Cosmetics_Foundation_PP&hash=item4ace7b8e03 for example.
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> I do not know if the thread would be compatible
[16:45] <Laurenceb> hi all
[16:45] <Laurenceb> so i was playing with my rockoon simulator
[16:45] <Laurenceb> this is getting stupidly easy
[16:46] <Laurenceb> tho very expensive
[16:46] <Laurenceb> two of these http://ph.parker.com/us/12051/en/pulse-valves-miniature-high-speed-high-vacuum-dispense-valve
[16:47] <Laurenceb> one of these: http://www.co2cartridges.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=227&category=944
[16:47] <Laurenceb> a little time in a workshop and job done
[16:48] <Laurenceb> i have a Parker trade account, looks like about $1k
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[16:49] <qyx_> lol 600usd?
[16:49] <Laurenceb> shrug
[16:49] <qyx_> Hah, 1k
[16:50] <Laurenceb> for two of them :P
[16:50] <Laurenceb> epic savings
[16:50] <Laurenceb> or not..
[16:50] <eroomde> keep the co2 heated
[16:50] <eroomde> otherwise it'll solidify at those pressures and temps
[16:50] <Laurenceb> sure
[16:50] <Laurenceb> the large mass of steel helps
[16:51] <eroomde> sure but there's the 2 hours of loating up
[16:51] <Laurenceb> looks like you could empty the whole thing in a second or two and keep the isp okish
[16:51] <Laurenceb> i was talking about as it empties
[16:51] <Laurenceb> grrr
[16:52] <Laurenceb> so tempted to build this thing
[16:52] <Laurenceb> looks like itd be light too - ~250grams total
[16:55] <Laurenceb> eroomde: my "tumbling rockoon" simulator is rather numerically unstable, and ideas how to improve it - its trivially simple atm
[16:55] <Laurenceb> i was thinking of applying conversation of energy to the rotation rate
[16:55] <eroomde> don't know i'm afriad
[16:56] <Laurenceb> ok nvm, back to matlab time
[16:56] <Laurenceb> turns out you need dual fast response nozzels for good control authority
[16:57] <Laurenceb> have you ever used A-LOK fittings?
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[16:59] <eroomde> no
[16:59] <Laurenceb> ok
[16:59] <Laurenceb> looks simple enough to use - im wondering if Alu tube could be used to save mass
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[17:19] <eroomde> Tethered balloons are the devil
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[17:46] <SpeedEvil> You pretty much need some aerosurfaces on them to tame them.
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> And by the time you get done, you're at tethered blimps
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> If you can ensure that the free ascent velocity is lower than the windspeed, you can sort-of-get-by with 45 degree tethers.
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> But - 5m/s, or even 10m/s is not a very high wind - once aloft.
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> s/tethers/guys/
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[18:36] <Laurenceb> http://www.repeater-builder.com/humor/signetics-wom.pdf
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[19:20] <mclane> hi
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[19:57] <Herman_PB0AHX> GE all
[20:03] <MLow> yo
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[20:51] <eroomde> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Farnell-AP60-50-Regulated-Power-Supply/271370991366?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D74%26meid%3D4141816934646647143%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1048%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D261366120248%26
[20:51] <eroomde> for that meaty amp
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[20:52] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhEkzwWIIoc&feature=youtu.be
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> On digital voice over ham radio.
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> (1600bps channels)
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> Free codec.
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> Bruce perens.
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> Skip to about 10 mins for the actual talk
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[20:54] <eroomde> i love bruce perens
[20:54] <eroomde> every word he says is very sort-of pronounced
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[20:57] <SpeedEvil> Quite - it's a great attribute to have an interesting speaking manner, as a lecturer.
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:58] <natrium42> eroomde: wtb the new ublox chip
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[20:58] <jcoxon> natrium42!
[20:58] <eroomde> natrium42: upu sells em
[20:59] <eroomde> he'll be cheaper than anyone else for <100 i'm sure
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[20:59] <eroomde> oh just the chip?
[20:59] <eroomde> the amy thing?
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[21:02] <natrium42> eroomde: EVA-7M
[21:02] <natrium42> jcoxon: ohi
[21:03] <Upu> those are very high volume
[21:03] <Upu> I got some AMY's but not worth it tbh
[21:04] <eroomde> no harm in asking the distributor for some samples
[21:04] <natrium42> Upu: how are the AMYs?
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[21:04] <eroomde> amy's lack a builtin xtal right?
[21:04] <Upu> yeah
[21:05] <Upu> hard to use
[21:05] <eroomde> by the time you add that and a pair of loading caps i doubt you've much board area left over vs a max
[21:05] <Upu> I think KT5TK has tried some and so has Arko
[21:05] <Upu> but you might as well use the MAX7's
[21:05] <eroomde> but the EVAs look completely integrated
[21:06] <Upu> most likely but you won't be able to buy them
[21:07] <Upu> high volume they won't be interested unless you're talking about 5000
[21:07] <eroomde> like i said, always worth an ask for some samples
[21:07] <Upu> yeah you can get 20
[21:07] <Upu> and thats it
[21:07] <Upu> and I struggled to get 20 AMY's
[21:08] <eroomde> i'm used to getting samples from people, not worried about it unless it's actual impossible
[21:08] <eroomde> how keen do you think people are to sell stuff to one-off experimental rocket engines
[21:08] <eroomde> + 4 hours of complicated technical questions on the phone about just how far out of spec we can push them
[21:09] <Upu> I'll make some enquiries but it took me a while to get some AMY's
[21:09] <eroomde> i'm like their worst customer
[21:10] <Upu> mind you
[21:10] <Upu> its 500 a reel
[21:10] <Upu> Sending a mail
[21:10] <eroomde> yeah
[21:10] <eroomde> i might give them a call tomorrow
[21:10] <eroomde> would be fun to experiment with
[21:11] <eroomde> 4mA in 1Hz tracking mode
[21:11] <natrium42> eroomde: let me know how it goes!
[21:12] <eroomde> you have something up your sleeve?
[21:12] <natrium42> i was just going to design a tracker
[21:12] <eroomde> ah cool
[21:12] <eroomde> well, feel free to ask alpha-micro yourself
[21:12] <natrium42> wanted to play around with altium
[21:12] <Upu> battery is the big bit now natrium42 : http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=675
[21:12] <natrium42> having used only eagle before
[21:13] <eroomde> they've always been quite relaxed and helpful whenever i've wanted to get small qtys of anything from them
[21:13] <Upu> I have mailed them let see what they say
[21:13] <natrium42> ok, cool
[21:13] <eroomde> i'll call them anyway
[21:13] <eroomde> much harder to say no
[21:13] <jcoxon> natrium42, you in california these days?
[21:14] <natrium42> that is pretty tiny, Upu, awesome work!
[21:14] <eroomde> natrium42: have you ponied up for altium or do you have an evaluation (nudge-wink) copy?
[21:14] <Upu> lol
[21:14] <natrium42> jcoxon: yeah, you should come visit some time!
[21:15] <Upu> evaluation period license extension utility
[21:15] <natrium42> eroomde: well.... :)
[21:15] <eroomde> are you still in palo alto?
[21:15] <eroomde> in the house?
[21:16] <natrium42> yeah, though our startup was acquired
[21:16] <eroomde> yeah, tis why i asked
[21:16] <eroomde> you get to carry on working there
[21:16] <natrium42> yep, it's a nice place to work actually
[21:17] <eroomde> + stanford
[21:17] <eroomde> that's still the university library in which i most want to read and work
[21:17] <eroomde> of all the ones i've been to
[21:17] <natrium42> dan bowen is out here as well
[21:17] <eroomde> in MV?
[21:18] <natrium42> right, but that's like 15 mins away
[21:18] <eroomde> yeah
[21:18] <eroomde> i drove from the google campus to your house
[21:18] <eroomde> must first ever drive in a wrong-hand-drive car
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[21:19] <natrium42> lol, wrong :O
[21:19] <natrium42> i drove a bit in india over the holidays
[21:19] <eroomde> that must have been an experience
[21:19] <natrium42> also left side of the road driving
[21:19] <natrium42> plus manual cars
[21:20] <eroomde> well at least that's a saving grace
[21:20] <eroomde> cannot understand why you'd want automatic
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[21:20] <eroomde> the one let-down of my drive from la to sf along route 1 in my convertible mustang (so far so good....) was that it was automatic
[21:21] <Upu> I drove a Dodge something from Orlando down to the Keys
[21:21] <Upu> tbh glad it was auto it was one big long straight boring road
[21:22] <eroomde> route 1 is definitely not long and straight
[21:22] <eroomde> it was proper almost alpine windiness
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[21:22] <natrium42> eroomde: future cars will all be electric and single gear :P
[21:23] <eroomde> http://hdwallpaper.freehdw.com/0002/nature-landscapes_hdwallpaper_beautiful-route-1-on-california-coast_17508.jpg
[21:23] <natrium42> maybe they will put a knob for europeans that is not actually doing anything
[21:23] <eroomde> yeah, that'll be sad
[21:23] <eroomde> thought the acceleration is nice
[21:23] <eroomde> though*
[21:24] Action: DL1SGP is looking forward trying to receive Steve_G0TDJ's launch on 21st and highly appreciated the "get the kettle going" note :D
[21:25] <natrium42> it's a beautiful drive, though, eroomde
[21:26] <natrium42> route 1
[21:26] <eroomde> yeah stunning
[21:26] <eroomde> loved it
[21:27] <eroomde> stopped in lots of places along the way
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[21:28] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
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[21:32] <Laurenceb_> lol freecycle
[21:32] <eroomde> spent what about it?
[21:32] <Laurenceb_> i wondered by there was a pile of carpet on the street outside my house
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> then i checked my email "carpet; free for collection"
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[21:34] <Laurenceb_> now i know who the neighbour is on the local group :P
[21:34] <Upu> the line on a SMD diode is normally the cathode isn't it ?
[21:35] <eroomde> correctatron
[21:36] <eroomde> but it different on tantalum capacitors
[21:36] <eroomde> which can cause mega lols
[21:36] <eroomde> by 'lols' i mean fire
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> heh been there done that
[21:36] <eroomde> ain't we all
[21:37] <Upu> lol
[21:39] <eroomde> i know people who use tantalums as pyro initiators
[21:39] <cm13g09> eroomde: fun
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> uh oh
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> http://www.google.co.uk/patents?hl=en&lr=&vid=USPAT6110455&id=ft0DAAAAEBAJ&oi=fnd&dq=poultry++behaviour+sound+PATENT&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> my chicken disco is patented
[21:40] <cm13g09> lol
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> i was just thinking about tidal locking
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> if the earth rotated in the opposite direction, would the orbital height of the moon decrease with time?
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[21:42] <SpeedEvil> On the topic of multichannel digital modulation. The carrier phases all 'locking up' and causing massive power spikes was raised in this talk - as Laurenceb was talking about a while abck.
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yes, for a while. But as the angular momentum of the eath is smaller than the orbital of the moon, it would go 'one-faced sooner.
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> an earth-moon collision would be kind of bad :P
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> we would have to launch ion engines to the side of the moon or something
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> If you have a modulation scheme with a constraint - for example a ten value system, where the same digit cannot happen twice. Can you not simply treat this from a data perspective as a 9 value signalling system?
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[21:44] <Laurenceb_> i think so
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> Similarly - cannot you not treat parts of a coding scheme where some things can't be transmitted simply as reducing the whole coding space -r ather than clipping or whatever.
[21:45] Action: SpeedEvil doesn't understand why this isn't obvious. There has to be a catch.
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[21:48] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I highly recommend the kepler science conference videos - sort of along the same topic.
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> Fun fact.
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> The 'habitable zone' of very small stars actually has another significant constraint.
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> Not only average insolation.
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> If the eccentricity is over 1% or so, the tidal heating on the core of the planet heats it to uninhabitability.
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[22:28] <adwiens> Anyone tried spot welding tabs onto lithium batteries?
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[22:30] <eroomde> no but have tried flicking the nostrils of sleeping tigers
[22:31] <arko> lol
[22:32] <eroomde> i might be inclined to first try soldering a tab on with a 100W iron
[22:36] <adwiens> The point of spot welding is to prevent the battery from getting that hot
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[22:38] <eroomde> i've seen spotwelding done on them, never tried myself
[22:39] <eroomde> we did do soldering on some c-size cells though
[22:39] <eroomde> they seemed quite happy, though a c cell does have more metal to sink heat into
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: i fixed my rockoon simulator, there were some sign errors :P
[22:42] <mikestir> I've soldered wires onto lithium coin cells in the past and never had any go bang
[22:42] <mikestir> and I went through a lot on that project
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> giving sane results now, also turns out that a "strapdown" IMU can be used, and the spin axis of the gyro allowed to saturate
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> I have soldered onto batteries - including lithium-ion.
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[22:42] <SpeedEvil> The key is speed.
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> And cleanliness.
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> its possible to calculate the orientation based of model fitting of the other two axes alone
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> for a limited amount of time - 2 seconds gives a few milliradians RMS error and it picks up massively after that
[22:43] <mikestir> the real key is a powerful iron, since that's the only way you get speed
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> First wash your hands. Now, clean the cells to remove any grease or oil that are on them. Now, abrade with some 600 grit sandpaper.
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> Take the most microscopic bit of flux, and smear a tiny coating on the cell.
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> im tempted to try single solenoid valve configurations again
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> Now, using your 25W iron, with a oval bit - place the flat side of the iron up, build up a bead, and then touch the cell to it, before removing.
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> ~$630 for the whole thing is a very tempting price
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> The whole process between applying the solder and removing the iron should take under 1 second, and you should be left with a .2mm or so solder pad on the battery. You should be able to touch it immediately.
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> Wait for cell to cool, and repeat the process - this time clamping a pre-tinned bit of wire to the battery first.
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> There is plenty of heat in the molten solder to complete the joint. If you're waiting for conduction from the iron to warm it - you're doing it wrong.
[22:47] <adwiens> Ok thanks!
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> I've done this on li-ion and nicd cells - and both seemed to work.
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> I am unsure that this cannot produce a lower heat input than spot welding, done right.
[22:49] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Unique-Hand-Finished-Sculpture-Priscilla-the-Pig-Recycled-Steel-Oil-Drum-/350975514456 - on the topic of crap welding.
[22:50] <adwiens> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KuuktJh6c8I/T7yUjp9e_aI/AAAAAAAABOY/sLHmTr9Mwdc/s1600/misfits.gif
[22:53] <adwiens> Another question about batteries
[22:53] <adwiens> Is there a difference at cold temperatures between LiMnO2 and LiFeS2 batteries?
[22:54] <adwiens> Or altitude
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[23:07] <nick_> eroomde: Alan Bond is giving a talk to the physics society at Merton this term.
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[23:11] <eroomde> nick_: cool
[23:11] <eroomde> you should go!
[23:12] <nick_> I will.
[23:12] <nick_> Hopefully I'll get to chat with him over dinner.
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[23:39] <wd8mnv> in case no one saw this yet...http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/01/we-hacked-north-korea-with-balloons-and-usb-drives/283106/
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[00:00] --- Thu Jan 16 2014