highaltitude.log.20140114

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[01:06] <aadamson> RF question of the day :)... (and to think this is a high altitude channel :))... if using a vcxo to create fm modulating it with PWM from a micro controller, would you expect that the VC input on the VCXO would be AC coupled?
[01:09] <aadamson> maybe I should restate that... Ac coupled with a dc bias added to the center control voltage?
[01:14] <aadamson> added *to* center the control voltage... I can't type tonight :)
[01:16] <SpeedEvil> depends, you can ewasonably do it either way
[01:17] <SpeedEvil> Lack of proper DC has an issue - as - for example - FSK serial has longterm DC offsets.
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> You need to filter the PWM to remove any energy content at the PWM frequency.
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[01:24] <aadamson> SpeedEvil, already did that, just wondering in general... if wanting to do any form of fsk, whether I'd want dc coupled or ac coupled... if ac, I have to bias it back to 1/2 vdd anyway in this case 3v3/2
[01:25] <aadamson> either way is needs a 1/2 vdd bias :)
[01:26] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[01:26] <aadamson> and doing sine wave pmw it's going to be centered at 1/2 vdd anyway I think
[01:26] <aadamson> even before the coupling
[01:27] <aadamson> there is no external bias other than the micro pin's output
[01:29] <jarod> Sorry for the off topic.... but there have been known to be pilots here.... just kick me if you dont want me here, else please answer this:
[01:29] <jarod> [02:26] (jarod): When a plane transmits on lets say 121.2 and 119.050 at the same time.... i can understand, i hear tower also on that freq
[01:29] <jarod> [02:27] (jarod): but on busy days, those freqs are seperated..... how is a "pilot/plane" told when not to transmit on multiple frequencies?
[01:29] <jarod> [02:28] (jarod): same for tower freqs: 18R = 118.275, 18C = 118.1 and 18L is 119.225, but now at night.. all frequencies are coupled
[01:29] <jarod> [02:28] (jarod): yet when a plane comes in to land, its asked to contact 118.275, but heard on all tower freqs
[01:30] <aadamson> ok, back up for a minute
[01:30] <aadamson> in the us?
[01:30] <jarod> Amsterdam Schiphol
[01:30] <aadamson> ah...
[01:30] <aadamson> might be different there.
[01:30] <jarod> but thats unrelated...
[01:31] <aadamson> in the US, I've flown for 20 years and I *never* transmit on 2 frequencies
[01:31] <aadamson> only 1
[01:31] <aadamson> radios don't even have that ability
[01:31] <jarod> Yes...
[01:31] <jarod> so i am wondering...
[01:31] <jarod> are the frequencies relayed then?
[01:32] <aadamson> so *usually* let's talk about the ground ops
[01:32] <aadamson> if they use 2 separate frequencies for 2 different runways, they either use 2 controllers, or 1 controller who switches between the 2 freqs
[01:32] <jarod> yes on busy days....
[01:32] <aadamson> they also *can* simulcast, but it's not done very much over here
[01:32] <jarod> 18R = 118.275, 18C = 118.1
[01:32] <jarod> yes, okay, so.......
[01:32] <aadamson> yep and probably 2 controllers or one that switches back and forth
[01:33] <jarod> How is that instrcute?
[01:33] <jarod> instructed
[01:33] <jarod> Where is it simulcasted? from the tower?
[01:33] <aadamson> from the air, it's published which freq to use for which runway and you listed to ATIS to determine which to use
[01:33] <aadamson> yes, from the tower it's simulcast if they use that
[01:33] <jarod> yes... i know that
[01:33] <jarod> ah okay
[01:34] <aadamson> little man setting behind a display or looking through binoculars :)
[01:34] <jarod> so tonight: TMA = 121.1 (but i also hear it on 119.050) thats the tower rebroadcasting it there
[01:34] <aadamson> most likely
[01:34] <jarod> interesting
[01:34] <jarod> it also explains the huge difference in signal strength on some frequencies
[01:34] <aadamson> there are also RCO's these are remote stations where *center* can broadcast and listen and multiple airports
[01:35] <jarod> yes, they have those on oilrigs here...
[01:35] <aadamson> this is usually done one ones where they either have hours of tower operation or where they have no tower but are in controlled airspace
[01:35] <jarod> At schiphol there is always: ground/tower/tma/radar
[01:36] <aadamson> yeah same here in most of the busy airports in atlanta
[01:36] <jarod> when busy a seperate arrival is setup for east and west
[01:36] <aadamson> we have it even more strange than that.
[01:36] <aadamson> departures are on the 90's and arrivals on the 45's :) degrees on the compass from the central airport
[01:37] <jarod> ya, well schiphol has 6 runways, so that works a bit different :)
[01:37] <aadamson> yeah, I'm sure it does... :)...
[01:37] <jarod> max 2 big for lading, each 1 arrival... and always runway 04/22 for smaller planes landing (from north, so 22 then)
[01:39] <jarod> thanks for helping me out a bit...
[01:40] <aadamson> at ATL, you *can't* land as a little airplane... well, you can if you want to pay a *huge landing fee*... so mostly around there, all of the smaller airports land the *general aviation* and ATL is reserved for Commercial
[01:40] <eroomde> thoroughly fed up with all this rc bollocks
[01:41] <eroomde> everything is engineered craply
[01:41] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Still CNCing shit?
[01:41] <aadamson> what are you building?
[01:41] <eroomde> no, doing surgery on some futaba servos
[01:41] <SpeedEvil> 'Fun'.
[01:41] <eroomde> aadamson: i'm trying to bodge something for s customer who has a demo at noon tomorrow
[01:41] <aadamson> ah... hehe, and they are considered some of the best... go figure :)
[01:41] <eroomde> it's not working, he is practically weeping
[01:41] <aadamson> oooo... good luck!
[01:42] <jarod> aadamson: well runway 04/22 is one of the oldest in existance :) its 2014 meters long.... still a 747-400 can land there easy :D
[01:42] <eroomde> so he came here to ask if we can make it work
[01:42] <eroomde> they're probably good vs other rc servos i'm sure
[01:42] <eroomde> but it's a case of anything to save a cent
[01:42] <aadamson> bigger hammer or smaller soldering iron will fix anything :)
[01:42] <eroomde> and we have some randomer on the internet's pan tilt mount
[01:42] <eroomde> which is dire
[01:42] <eroomde> it's all just dire
[01:43] <eroomde> everything is dire
[01:43] <eroomde> it fails on both design and craftsmanship
[01:43] <SpeedEvil> Watch out for the direwolves.
[01:43] <aadamson> yeah, it's tough anymore unless you do it yourself and even then it's tough... 3d printers to the rescue if you have to time to do the design
[01:43] <eroomde> i don't
[01:43] <eroomde> i'm putting stuff into diacast boxes
[01:44] <eroomde> as if i were a radio ham in a shed
[01:44] <eroomde> it's that bad
[01:44] <eroomde> it's 01:44 here
[01:44] <eroomde> i want to go to bed
[01:44] <SpeedEvil> http://3dtopo.com/lostPLA/ - looks like fun. (Take a 3d printed model, pour molten aluminium in it)
[01:44] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Good luck.
[01:45] <eroomde> this is not my normal day-job needless to say
[01:45] <SpeedEvil> yeah. :)
[01:45] <eroomde> i'm just using our electronics stuff
[01:45] <eroomde> also upsetting is that the feedback pots on the servos are not half their resistence when the servo is in the middle
[01:46] <eroomde> which bamboozled me when i tried to modify the servo guts into a speed controller for someone elses gearmotor
[01:46] <eroomde> this is all just horrible bodgery
[01:46] <eroomde> i'm even using a glue gun
[01:46] <eroomde> jesus
[01:47] <SpeedEvil> As long as you don't have to bring out the sticky back plastic and the fairy liquid bottle.
[01:48] <eroomde> also the radio gear he's given me is analogue
[01:48] <eroomde> 35Mhz
[01:48] <eroomde> so it's picking up everything in the lab
[01:48] <adamgreig> this sounds like a nightmare project
[01:48] <eroomde> yes
[01:48] <eroomde> this is crap
[01:48] <adamgreig> hope he's adequately compensating
[01:48] <eroomde> i hate doing crap work
[01:49] <eroomde> and this is crap
[01:49] <adamgreig> amazingly last minute
[01:49] <eroomde> yes he drove like 4 hours with bits to canabalize
[01:49] <adamgreig> is he still up?
[01:49] <eroomde> begging for us to just see if we can salve anything demoable
[01:49] <eroomde> no
[01:49] <adamgreig> sounds pretty desperate
[01:49] <eroomde> we're motorcycle couriering it by 9am
[01:49] <eroomde> it is desparate adamgreig
[01:49] <eroomde> look at this
[01:50] <eroomde> look at the nice environemtnally sealed milspec connector to attach the loom to the custom designed box
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[01:50] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/bd796cu984m1shr/2014-01-13%2022.40.33.jpg
[01:51] <eroomde> i'm not enjoying this one bit
[01:51] <adamgreig> haha
[01:58] <eroomde> end is in sight
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[02:06] <eroomde> right
[02:06] <eroomde> it works
[02:07] <eroomde> it pans and it tilts and it sends ir video down
[02:07] <arko> nice
[02:07] <arko> except that "connector"
[02:07] <eroomde> and it looks like frankenstein
[02:08] <eroomde> but it'll demo
[02:09] <arko> hoepfuly the people you are demoing to dont notice
[02:09] <eroomde> i think it'll be hanging from something high
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[02:51] <SpeedEvil> MOAR HOT GLUE!
[02:51] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[04:02] <WillTablet> Did you miss me?
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[09:14] Action: ibanezmatt13 is wondering what are the chances that his payload will be found a smoldering wreck after batteries in the camera exploded...
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[09:25] <nats`> hi boyz :)
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[09:28] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: at least you won't have a problem finding it. just follow the trail of smoke
[09:28] <ibanezmatt13> exactly fsphil :)
[09:29] <Guest12589> if I am sending a balloon around the worled how would I track it 24/7?
[09:29] <fsphil> the only sure way would be to put a satellite modem on it
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[09:30] <fsphil> how are you getting it around the world?
[09:30] <Guest12589> using winds at about 100,000 feet
[09:30] <fsphil> oh yea, sibot is broke
[09:31] <fsphil> what type of balloon?
[09:31] <Guest12589> it is a 0 pressure balloon... I think
[09:32] <fsphil> does the project have a website?
[09:33] <Guest12589> not yet
[09:34] <fsphil> should be interesting
[09:35] <fsphil> have you seen http://www.spiritofknoxville.com/ ?
[09:35] <Guest12589> no I have not!
[09:37] <Guest12589> also how can I get things like pressure, altitude, speed heading and all of that? Could I use an adriano board?
[09:38] <fsphil> possibly. with the appropriate sensors of course
[09:39] <fsphil> have you done any HAB flights before?
[09:40] <Guest12589> No this would be my first
[09:40] <Guest12589> I have done some LAV Flights, LOL
[09:41] <Guest12589> Low Altitude Ballooning
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[09:42] <fsphil> I'm not sure I'd recommend a zero-pressure flight for your first go :)
[09:43] <fsphil> it would be safer to test the various systems on a basic latex balloon first
[09:45] <Guest12589> I see, what I am working on is a group project and I need to get some info, I think the project leader have done some flight before
[09:45] <fsphil> and you'll probably have less issues with getting permission to launch something like that
[09:46] <fsphil> where abouts is the group based?
[09:46] <Guest12589> in the US, California
[09:46] <fsphil> ah. you have plenty of land area to test with anyway :)
[09:47] <Guest12589> true
[09:47] <fsphil> and nice weather
[09:48] <Guest12589> yea, its a little cold but a nice cold
[09:48] <fsphil> there have been a few flighst out of california
[09:48] <fsphil> two of them landed in europe
[09:49] <Guest12589> cool, do you know the names?
[09:50] <fsphil> http://www.cnsp-inc.com/
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[09:52] <Guest12589> Cool, I never knew about this group! Thanks!
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[09:58] <Guest12589> if I have any more questions I will be back! Thanks fsphil and I will be back a user name cats7896
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[09:59] <cats7896> I am back!
[09:59] <cats7896> LOL
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[09:59] <fsphil> hah
[10:00] <fsphil> is it not really late at night there?
[10:00] <fsphil> oh brb, breakfast
[10:00] Nick change: SiC- -> SiC
[10:00] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: I think a trip to McDonald's is required for my four 1/4 wave antenna straws :P #ukhas
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[10:01] <daveake> McD's straws are enormous I'm sure you can do better :)
[10:01] <cats7896> yea it's 2:02 am Tuesday the 14, 2014, 2014! wow
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[10:02] <ibanezmatt13> daveake: but they're such good quality compared to the likes of Asda :)
[10:02] <ibanezmatt13> They are a bit bulky though
[10:02] <daveake> You mean, "free" :p
[10:02] <ibanezmatt13> well, yeah... :)
[10:02] <cats7896> well it's time for me to go to bed goodnight all! I will be back later today or tomorrow to talk more about HAB! Night!
[10:02] <mfa298> doesn't that depend on whether you buy some processed cardboard to go with the straws
[10:03] <ibanezmatt13> last time I was there I just walked over to the straws and took 8, incase I melted 4 :P
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[10:03] <ibanezmatt13> you have to be innovative of course
[10:04] <mfa298> innovative, does that means a different silly walk each time you go in so they can't recognise you.
[10:05] <ibanezmatt13> kinda yeah :)
[10:05] <ibanezmatt13> I'll buy 8 milkshakes this time
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[10:09] <gonzo_> you only need one drink max, then unload the whole dispenser of straws
[10:09] <gonzo_> (I recon even if you did that, they still make huge profit on the deal)
[10:10] <ibanezmatt13> lol, probably :)
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[10:11] <gonzo_> they chatge a fiver for muck that [probably has a value of 10p
[10:11] <mfa298> some of the drinks it's probably not even a value of 10p
[10:12] <mfa298> someone I know worked it out for postmix and it came to something like 3p/pint.
[10:12] <gonzo_> (you can tell I'm not a fan. There is one right oposite and the smell from the old fat in the fryers is stomach turning)
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[10:13] <daveake> sounds like you need a fan
[10:13] <daveake> to blow the smell away
[10:13] <gonzo_> a bull doser
[10:13] <fsphil> I do go occasionally
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[10:14] <gonzo_> the fire engine turned up there last week, and a few of us cheered. Till we realised they were just getting lunch
[10:14] <fsphil> lol
[10:14] <ibanezmatt13> they do nice coffee
[10:15] <gonzo_> the only time I ever go into one is to use the loo on the tot hill services. And may have a cup of tea. As you can'y mc'ify a cup of tea
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[10:16] <gonzo_> people here do go over and get the coffees, before meetings
[10:16] <ibanezmatt13> Must say, it's as good as and I think slightly cheaper than starbucks
[10:16] <gonzo_> odd as we have a free machine that uses the pouches. So odd to walk over and pay
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[10:21] <ibanezmatt13> daveake, on thinking about it, McDonald's straws are a bit big, and you have to really get something when you go in there anyway. I think I'll settle for Asda, or maybe Sainsbury's have decent straws :)
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[10:26] <gonzo_> a bit of 16/0.2 wire is stiff enough on it's own I find. The last foil I did had some solid cat5 strands
[10:26] <gonzo_> worked fine
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[10:26] <ibanezmatt13> hmm maybe, I think the straws make it look awesome though :P
[10:26] <ibanezmatt13> Off to college, bll
[10:26] <ibanezmatt13> bbl even
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[11:35] <eroomde> eerbady be joinin n quittin
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[11:39] <fsphil> IRC QRM
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[11:41] <daveake> Intermittent RC
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[12:12] <WillDWork> anyone know when the rfm22b becomes end-of-life and what replaces it?
[12:12] <eroomde> ntx2b
[12:12] <eroomde> god's own ISM radio
[12:12] <fsphil> I think it's already EOL. you can't seem to buy it from many places anymore
[12:13] <eroomde> or diy with any of the many rf-ey chips around
[12:13] <fsphil> plus it's horrible
[12:13] <fsphil> it dies in the cold, and has a horrible interface
[12:13] <WillDWork> that about covers it
[12:14] YO9ICT (~YO9ICT@leu-a1.eregie.pub.ro) left irc:
[12:16] <WillDWork> is Kapton tape useful enough for use in HAB flights - I saw Upu used it - did it improve things?
[12:16] <eroomde> it hadds 20% to the battery life
[12:16] <mattbrejza> http://dx.com/s/cc1101 these modules are pretty similar to the rfm22b
[12:17] <eroomde> it's just good at low temps and high temps WillDWork
[12:17] <eroomde> mattbrejza: yes, we used the cc11xx for the badgercub
[12:17] <mattbrejza> they also come with a sma which itself is worth like £3 from farnell
[12:19] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3887350096/in/set-72157621846323425/
[12:19] <eroomde> the ones on the right
[12:19] <eroomde> it has an 8051 core too so no need for a separate MCU
[12:19] <Darkside> sdcc tho
[12:19] <WillDWork> they look interesting
[12:19] <Darkside> sdcc is horrible
[12:19] <daveake> If anyone actually wants an RFM22B I have a couple of unused spares, on breakout boards
[12:19] <eroomde> sdcc.... yeah
[12:19] <mfa298> RS still had some rfm22b last week if you really want them
[12:19] <mattbrejza> ah yea i remember, the one with the msp430 core is much nicer :P
[12:19] <Darkside> i man, shit...
[12:19] <Darkside> function declarations
[12:19] <Darkside> terrible
[12:19] <eroomde> not being able to multiply
[12:20] <eroomde> wrote diy multiplaction library doing shifts and adds
[12:20] <mfa298> daveake: you should use them to join in jcoxon's mesh network plans.
[12:20] <eroomde> mattbrejza: which as the 430 core?
[12:20] <mattbrejza> cc430
[12:20] <daveake> mfa298 jcoxon's what now?
[12:20] <mattbrejza> cc430f5137 for eg
[12:21] <mfa298> daveake: https://github.com/jamescoxon/UKHASnet (also #ukhasnet)
[12:21] <mattbrejza> http://imgur.com/sapcnwV apparently i only have a picture of a half assembled one
[12:22] <eroomde> nice
[12:22] <daveake> ah gottit
[12:24] <eroomde> mattbrejza: shame they don't have a fram version
[12:25] <mattbrejza> for tiny cubesats?
[12:25] <eroomde> yeah
[12:25] <eroomde> or polar habs
[12:25] <mattbrejza> would you need fram for polar habs?
[12:25] <eroomde> the denisty of energetic particles is much higher there
[12:26] <Darkside> south america
[12:26] <Darkside> well, brazil area
[12:26] <Darkside> magnetig anomaly thing
[12:26] <mattbrejza> although the gps would still be subject to errors
[12:26] <mattbrejza> also its a shame they dont do it in QFP
[12:27] <Darkside> use a OEMV-1DF, its space ratd :P
[12:27] <Darkside> rated*
[12:27] <Darkside> Novatel dual-freq unit
[12:27] <Darkside> also horrendously expensive
[12:27] <eroomde> yours for only 2W and £20k+?
[12:27] <mattbrejza> a little bigger than a max6
[12:27] <Darkside> it was about 3000 pounds
[12:27] <mattbrejza> the combined mcu/radio probably isnt worth it
[12:27] <Darkside> its whats on the UKube-1 payload i designd
[12:28] <Darkside> i wrote a lot of code to talk to that thing..
[12:28] <mattbrejza> "features: GPS tracking"
[12:28] <mattbrejza> no shit
[12:29] <Darkside> heh
[12:29] <Darkside> we're using it for scintillation observations
[12:29] <Darkside> well more accurately, i'm dumping data to flash then transmitting it. the other guys are using it for scintillation observations
[12:30] <mattbrejza> you got some facny particle detectors?
[12:30] <Darkside> er nope
[12:30] <Darkside> its using gps signals passing through ionosphere
[12:30] <Darkside> not that kind of scintillation :P
[12:30] <gonzo_> Darkside, you did the main radio on ukcube?
[12:30] <mattbrejza> oh right :P
[12:30] <Darkside> gonzo_: no
[12:30] <Darkside> i did a payload
[12:31] <Darkside> the main controller does use your gps for positioning though
[12:31] <gonzo_> ok, still intereesting
[12:31] <Darkside> it means something i dsignd is a critical part of a cubesat >_>
[12:31] <gonzo_> I know amsat uk did the backup comms board
[12:31] <Darkside> (eek)
[12:31] <Darkside> yah, its a copy of funcube
[12:32] <gonzo_> hehe, well it will be more reliable than putting a phone in space!
[12:32] <Darkside> lol
[12:32] <Darkside> wait wasnt that somoene in here >_>
[12:32] <jonsowman> lol
[12:32] <jonsowman> don't go there
[12:32] <gonzo_> think it may also have an L band RX on this one
[12:32] <Darkside> yes, 2.4GHz uplink
[12:32] <mattbrejza> jonsowman: what happened to that?
[12:33] <jonsowman> it broke
[12:33] <jonsowman> as adam predicted within about 10 seconds of talking to the SSTL people
[12:33] <Darkside> oh dear
[12:33] <gonzo_> Thought it was 1.3ghz, so L>V transponder
[12:33] <Darkside> failure mode?
[12:33] <Darkside> gonzo_: dunno
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[12:33] <Darkside> didnt think so
[12:33] <jonsowman> stopped transmitting
[12:33] <Darkside> jonsowman: oh lol
[12:34] <Darkside> bit hard to diagnose
[12:34] <gonzo_> either way. Still need to build some more uplink kit when it arrives
[12:34] <jonsowman> we didn't get any data from for our app
[12:34] <jonsowman> nor did anyone else
[12:34] <gonzo_> take the sim out and wipe it with a dry cloth
[12:34] <jonsowman> hah
[12:34] <daveake> ha
[12:34] <jonsowman> honestly the absolute incompetence of the people building it
[12:34] <fsphil> I suppose it failing is still data
[12:34] <mattbrejza> jonsowman: did the standard cubesat bit work?
[12:34] <jonsowman> I am absolutely not surprised at all
[12:34] <jonsowman> mattbrejza: no
[12:34] <jonsowman> the entire thing broke
[12:34] <Darkside> i remember sometrhing about them testing heaps of phones
[12:35] <Darkside> jonsowman: spill
[12:35] <gonzo_> nope failing is a lesson
[12:35] <Darkside> what did they do wrong
[12:35] <jonsowman> they were just completely incompetent
[12:35] <mattbrejza> does that still count as first?
[12:35] <jonsowman> no idea what they were doing
[12:35] <gonzo_> rely on domestic cots kit
[12:35] <mattbrejza> also btw the picaxe sat has done better than them :P
[12:35] <jonsowman> their internal sat comms was like, UDP over I2C or something
[12:35] <fsphil> noooooooo
[12:36] <Darkside> gonzo_: a lot of cubesat stuff has to be COTS
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[12:36] <Darkside> gonzo_: well, on UKube it was
[12:36] <jonsowman> and when I was asking about ack'ing messages to the sat and what happens if a packet gets lost
[12:36] <gonzo_> did anyone hear that 50$ sat? I did listen
[12:36] <jonsowman> their honest answer was "but where would they go?"
[12:36] Action: daveake shakes head
[12:36] <fsphil> !
[12:36] <jonsowman> I can't even begin to explain their uselessness
[12:37] Action: daveake 's head falls off
[12:37] <fsphil> these people got to build and launch a satellite?
[12:37] <jonsowman> yes
[12:37] <jonsowman> astonishing isn't it?
[12:37] <fsphil> and UKHAS didn't?
[12:37] <gonzo_> but something as complicated/intricate as a phone, built for domestic use....
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[12:37] <jonsowman> well we'll never know if it worked or not
[12:37] <jonsowman> because the rest of the systems failed
[12:37] <jonsowman> the phone never even booted
[12:38] <gonzo_> when a sat fails in space, did they hear their scream?
[12:38] <Darkside> lol what
[12:38] <jonsowman> one more example then I'll shut it: they were planning to get data off the phone by using a camera pointed at the phone screen and OCR'ing the text
[12:38] <Darkside> jonsowman: this is STRAND-1 ?
[12:38] <Darkside> what.
[12:38] <jonsowman> when we pointed out you could just SSH into the phone they were totally bemused
[12:38] <daveake> lol
[12:38] <jonsowman> yep strand-1
[12:38] <fsphil> strand-ed
[12:38] <Darkside> so it never even transmitted?
[12:39] <jonsowman> it did for a bit
[12:39] <jonsowman> couple of weeks maybe
[12:39] <jonsowman> but it wasn't running on the phone
[12:39] <mattbrejza> flash the status LED using morse code and use an LDR on the main sat part
[12:39] <mattbrejza> clearly the best way
[12:39] <jonsowman> they never got round to booting the phone before the thing died
[12:39] <jonsowman> mattbrejza: you joke, but that's better than OCRing
[12:39] <Darkside> mattbrejza: cryptonomicon style
[12:39] <Darkside> but the phone isnt being van-eck phreaked at the time
[12:39] <mattbrejza> isnt that how they dumped the canon firmware for chdk?
[12:40] <daveake> Strand?
[12:40] <daveake> There´s a new sensation
[12:40] <daveake> A fabulous creation
[12:40] <jonsowman> so yeah, if someone wants to do it _properly_ it'd be interested to see how it does
[12:40] <jonsowman> but strand-1 was doomed to failure long before it launched
[12:40] <gonzo_> I did a morse based mailbox system ove CB when I was a kid. Used an ldr on the screen to key the TX
[12:41] <daveake> hah nice
[12:41] <mfa298> mattbrejza: use two LDRs with colour filters and you could alternate the screen between two colours and do rtty :p
[12:41] <gonzo_> it was crap, but actually worked.
[12:41] <fsphil> the BBC transmitted programs to BBC Micros that way
[12:41] <fsphil> they sold an add-on that stuck to the TV
[12:42] <daveake> LDRs are slow enough at room temp
[12:42] <gonzo_> That was over the tape poer wasn't it. Unicode?
[12:43] <Babs_> mattbrejza - have you read Cryptonomicon?
[12:43] <mattbrejza> about to
[12:43] <gonzo_> that was why I used morse. Slow LDR. tried rtty, but it was all in basic, so could not get the speed up
[12:43] <mattbrejza> oh its a book, may be not then
[12:43] <Darkside> lol
[12:43] <Darkside> its great
[12:43] <Darkside> i finishd reading it again recently
[12:43] <gonzo_> (with a photodiode and some rough filtering to get the tv raster out)
[12:43] <Darkside> for about the 4th time
[12:44] <Babs_> There is a good bit of morse code action there where a guy flashes a caps lock LED to transmit a message because someone is van eck phreaking his cathode ray monitor
[12:44] <gonzo_> but thinking back, that would never have worked, as 25hz frame, 20mS bit timing....)
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[12:44] <daveake> I remember adding a light pen to my Z80 machine, using a photo-transistor
[12:45] <Babs_> ahh, i've just read back up. i've just repeated what darkside already said
[12:45] <Babs_> *babs goes back to sleep*
[12:46] <gonzo_> O level computer studies, whilst others were doing 'hello world' I ws doing a light pen driver for the BBC micro. What a sad little shit i was!
[12:46] <gonzo_> (Have we not had this conversation recentky?)
[12:48] <nats`> guyz anyone with experience on topological router ?
[12:49] <Laurenceb> ask in #stm32
[12:49] <Laurenceb> *##
[12:52] <nats`> Laurenceb for top router ?
[12:53] <Laurenceb> that was a joke
[12:53] <nats`> sorry didn't get it
[12:53] <Laurenceb> they would troll you to death
[12:53] <nats`> oky I still don't know why but who cares :D
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[13:30] <Chetic> do you guys solder everything on or do connectors work?
[13:30] <Chetic> (I ask stupid questions, it's what I do)
[13:31] <ibanezmatt13> not everything. It depends
[13:31] <mfa298> depends on what you're doing
[13:32] <Chetic> specifically thinking of how I'm connecting my own board of sensors to the raspberry pi
[13:32] <mfa298> if you're using connectors then make sure they're not going to come apart during a flight
[13:32] <mfa298> Chetic: something like the humble pi board to go on a pi should stay connected fairly well
[13:32] <ibanezmatt13> I used a ribbon cable for the GPIO header on my Pi. It took a hell of a lot of force to get it off anyway
[13:32] <mfa298> and you could always add some cable ties to ensure they stay together.
[13:33] <Chetic> yeah I think I could lift the pi with the connectors I have..
[13:33] <Chetic> I heard someone had their sd card fall out
[13:33] <Chetic> how'd that happen?
[13:34] <mfa298> anything that connects to all the pins on the pi gpio header should be fairly decent. I definetly wouldn't use individual cables though.
[13:34] <ibanezmatt13> Some people actually hot glue the SD cards to the socket. On mine, I just routed a cutout in the box to ensure it couldn't budge
[13:34] <ibanezmatt13> bit of tape too helps
[13:34] <mfa298> it's fairly easy to knock the SD card in the pi's and have them lose connections
[13:34] <ibanezmatt13> Yep, I just tilt mine upside down and it almost falls out then, I've worn it down a bit
[13:34] <Chetic> tape really still works at -50C?
[13:34] <mfa298> they don't have to move far to have issues - especially if the SD card is in use at the time.
[13:35] <eroomde> Chetic: kapton tape works
[13:35] <eroomde> it's often used in cryogenics
[13:35] <eroomde> though as much as anything for it's insulative properties
[13:35] <eroomde> at low temps
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> I used this real strong unbranded version of gaffer tape. It held my lid on throughout the flight so I guess it was ok.
[13:36] <eroomde> gaffer works everywhere
[13:36] <Chetic> I don't want to buy a special tape if gaffa works
[13:36] <Chetic> or electrical tape
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[13:37] <mfa298> also a Pi is unlikely to get that cold if it's in an insulated box.
[13:37] <Chetic> eheh that's true
[13:37] <ibanezmatt13> just found out, the tape I use is orange tape called "jaffa tape" :)
[13:37] <Chetic> lol :D
[13:39] <mfa298> also standard comment: Is using a Pi the best solution for your needs - if it's just sensors Arduino might be better (lower power, no SD card to fall out)
[13:39] <Chetic> no it is not, but it IS too late for that :)
[13:39] <daveake> For the Pi, get a *flush* micro SD adapter
[13:41] <daveake> Much more robust than having an SD card hanging out
[13:41] <Chetic> oh didn't know those existed
[13:41] <Babs_> "Ed's Rule If you'd be unwilling to throw your payload down the stairs, it might be unwise to fly it." - should be able to determine SD card slot resilience
[13:41] <Hix> kapton tape adds the look of the future to most things.
[13:42] <Chetic> heh good one Babs_
[13:42] <eroomde> neat hack could be useful for someone
[13:42] <eroomde> http://hackaday.com/2014/01/13/software-half-duplex-uart-for-avrs/
[13:42] <mfa298> it should never be too late to decide that the platform you're using really isn't a good idea and change to something else (unless you've just let go of the balloon in which case praying to your deity of choice might be the only option left)
[13:42] <Chetic> Hix: good point
[13:42] <eroomde> i have done this before, though with a tristate gate because i'm not as cool as tghis
[13:42] <Hix> I discovered this morning that work are involved in talks with Sugru for industrial amounts of their product. WIN!
[13:42] <Babs_> Hix speaks sense. Too much focus on functionality here and things actually working, should do more of the aesthetics I think.
[13:42] <Hix> Performance is nothing, image is everything
[13:42] <Hix> ;p
[13:43] <eroomde> after my 24 hours with 'carbon fibre' RC stuff...
[13:43] <daveake> www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390695490831?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
[13:43] <eroomde> i couldn't disagree more violently
[13:43] <daveake> ^ micro sd adapters
[13:43] <Chetic> mfa298: I still think it's a pretty good idea, just not the best
[13:43] <Chetic> so I'm stickin' to it
[13:44] <Hix> I've found adaptors are iffy at best, I'd stick to SD full fat, for what they cost
[13:44] Action: mfa298 checks daveake's ebay link. Same as the ones I ordered last week :D
[13:44] <Babs_> 24 hours with 'carbon fibre' stuff?
[13:44] <Babs_> this sounds dodgy
[13:44] <eroomde> a customer came without about 3 different rc gimbals, all of which had some element of crappiness to them
[13:45] <daveake> Get some of this foil :-) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1969-Flown-to-the-Moon-Apollo-12-CM-Yankee-Clipper-Kapton-Foil-/251425019967?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8a19583f
[13:45] <eroomde> and begged us to make somethign pan and tilt ina oderately reliable way for a demo today
[13:45] <mfa298> Hix: I think the benefit of these ones is that they shouldn't stick out the edge of the pi so there's less stuff to knock
[13:45] <eroomde> did an overnighter (well, stopped at 3) and motorbike couriered it to him at 9am this morning]
[13:45] <eroomde> but it was ghastly
[13:45] <Babs_> do you have pictures?
[13:45] <Babs_> and did it work?
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[13:46] <eroomde> the electronics engineering in what they call a 'BEC' (what I call just a DC/DC converter) almost made me vomit
[13:46] <eroomde> i had to hack some RC servos to turn them into redimentary speed controllers to control the speed of some gearmotors, they're awfully designed
[13:46] <daveake> mfa298 I ordered a few on the 3rd and they arrived last week
[13:46] <eroomde> some really illogical stuff where the feedback pot also does level conversion
[13:46] <mfa298> also getting SD cards at sensible prices seems to be getting harder - Cheapest option for 8G when I looked last week was the Pi NOOBs card from CPC (a day before the Pi foundation started selling them for less) and the NOOBS card is uSSD with adapter
[13:46] <eroomde> which for the record is BLOODY AWFUL
[13:46] <eroomde> and cost me an extra hour
[13:47] <eroomde> i had no time to do a nice job
[13:47] <eroomde> it was all diecast boxes and hot-melt glue and spray paint
[13:47] <eroomde> garden shed stuff
[13:47] <eroomde> anyway he has his demo and now i own him
[13:48] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb:
[13:48] <LeoBodnar> ping ^^
[13:49] <Babs_> eroomde - I will get my gimbal done. It will be a thing of beauty but will undoubtedly not work. We will compare and contrast with your functional but vomit inducing one.
[13:49] <Babs_> PS The new Babs stabilotron is going to have 2 (count them) gimbals
[13:49] <eroomde> omg
[13:50] <eroomde> what nerw level of awesome requires two?
[13:50] <Babs_> thereby instantly doubling the amount of gimbals ever flown from Great Tew, Oxfordshire.
[13:50] <gonzo_> I've seen some remains of BECs. The plane boys put huge currents thriough them. Supprised they llas more thana few sec
[13:50] <eroomde> great tew is only about 30 mins from my house
[13:51] <Babs_> one powered gimbal for camera, one passive gimbal for satellite-tracker-must-be-pointing-upwards-thing
[13:51] <Babs_> It is great if you only plan to launch between the hours of 5.00am and 7.00am in the morning. Otherwise a bit average.
[13:51] <eroomde> fairford?
[13:51] <eroomde> or is it brize norton
[13:52] <eroomde> they're all around there somewhere]
[13:52] <LeoBodnar> I got the GPS sampler hacked up http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/GPSsampler.jpg
[13:52] <Babs_> The RAF chief in the 1930s must have literally driven around Oxfordshire pointing out of the window ever 30 seconds and saying "we'll put another airfield there"
[13:53] <Laurenceb> yo Leo
[13:53] <Laurenceb> ooh very nice
[13:53] <gonzo_> the south coast was like that
[13:53] <Babs_> You could have definitely shaved off 0.05mm off the top side of that board Leo. You're slipping.
[13:53] <Laurenceb> heh
[13:54] <Laurenceb> have you scoped the data yet?
[13:54] <LeoBodnar> This is designed to be a bit lax. To see worst case scenario
[13:54] <LeoBodnar> I can see it coming out of 4110 but haven;t done much with it
[13:55] <LeoBodnar> DO you have any 4110 data with 16.368 clock?
[13:55] <Laurenceb> no
[13:56] <Laurenceb> only sige sampler stuff (and cant get at it atm)
[13:56] <eroomde> rev b already?
[13:56] <eroomde> who do you get your boards made with?
[13:56] <LeoBodnar> Yeah, Rev.A had another chip on it
[13:57] <Laurenceb> friendly troll says "<dongie> gotta love that grounding of all unused pins"
[13:57] <LeoBodnar> Almost all unused pins lol
[13:57] <Laurenceb> yeah i reposted for the lulz
[13:58] <Hix> Babs_ do you ever use the Flakland Arms in Great Tew? I used to partake in a tasty beverage there when I was at renault down the road
[13:58] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, quick question... on using pwm to drive the VC on an vcxo for afsk, would you ac couple it or not? If so I know I still need to dc bias it to 1.65v on this vcxo
[13:58] <LeoBodnar> I can't even remember why Rev.A got ripped apart
[13:58] <Laurenceb> aadamson: what if there is an input bias current on the vxxo?
[13:59] <LeoBodnar> Ah, it had a PIC with 8KB RAM and 64K FLASH, too little
[13:59] <eroomde> this is mine
[13:59] <Hix> *Falkland
[13:59] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/znxeaixm3xlpzbi/2013-05-15%2012.45.25.jpg
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: If you AC couple it - you will have a varying frequency offset with the data value, if your signal is not a balanced one.
[13:59] <Babs_> Hix - I've been there twice, both times to launch balloons, and in both cases left at 0715am. It looks nice though.
[13:59] <LeoBodnar> aadamson: if there is no DC bias then your midpoint might drift away
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: RS232 is not a balanced signal format - if you send FFFFFFFFFFFFF, then the average voltage is higher than 0000000000
[14:00] <Babs_> before I came on here I thought all balloons were limited to launching at 7am in the morning.
[14:00] <Hix> ahh, purely a launch venue then?
[14:00] <aadamson> ok, so let me fall back there... cuz I think I'm missing some fundamental point
[14:00] <LeoBodnar> cool eroomde
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: So, if you AC couple, you would need to have a coupling capacitor that - at least - will pass the whole of a message before drifting much.
[14:01] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: In short - no - DC couple it - unless you know what you're doing.
[14:01] <eroomde> it plugs into my fpga dev board
[14:01] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ff9v02f3hcjvneu/2013-05-15%2012.52.11.jpg
[14:01] <eroomde> so that's how i get it back out over USB
[14:01] <eroomde> i did it that way so i could gang several together onto one clock and do differential GPS
[14:01] <aadamson> ok... that makes some sense and seems to offer the greatest flexibility, in this case either works
[14:02] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2mdzhyx5j9s5yv/2013-05-18%2016.47.09.jpg
[14:02] <LeoBodnar> nice, is this the one with inverted TCXO on original revision?
[14:02] <aadamson> because pwm is basically balanced around mid vdd so generating afsk via pwm still leaves the signal averaged at vdd/2
[14:02] <eroomde> checking the baseband spectrum
[14:02] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: yes
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: What are you modulating - with what.
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[14:02] <aadamson> micro pin doing pwm
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: why.
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: what is the signal you're trying to output - in what modulation.
[14:03] <Babs_> Then with this photo http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/11947749466/
[14:03] <aadamson> fm
[14:03] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/j0s89bd1nxqsoh4/2013-05-22%2010.57.35.jpg
[14:03] <Babs_> i realised it was because i was flying in an area with a million airfields around it
[14:03] <Babs_> and daveake was launching only 30 miles or so away in the afternoon
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: What data modulation.
[14:04] <aadamson> SpeedEvil, I'm using pwm to modulate the vc input on the vcxo to create fm output to the si4463
[14:04] <Babs_> going to move over that way for the next one
[14:04] <aadamson> afsk 1200/2200 bell tones
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[14:04] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: Ok - now, what is the data modulation.
[14:04] <daveake> I'm moving further west myself :)
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: just serial?
[14:05] <aadamson> it's just ascii being sent at 1200 baud
[14:05] <aadamson> the chip is set for cw
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: So you're just using the chip as a pure VCO?
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: I assume you either don't mean 1200/2200, or 1200 baud?
[14:06] <LeoBodnar> So parallel code space search is based on the fact that FFT calculation complexity is N*log(N), right?
[14:07] <LeoBodnar> *its speed benefit
[14:07] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:07] <LeoBodnar> OK, so this is where the speed jump comes from
[14:07] <aadamson> no this is aprs, so it's ascii strings sent at 1200 baud using 1200/2200 audio tones sent as AFSK
[14:08] <eroomde> wait hold on
[14:08] <Laurenceb> no
[14:09] <eroomde> if you're doing code-phase parallel search, the Nice Thing is that you can doa circular convolution
[14:09] <LeoBodnar> because you still iterate of Doppler shift steps
[14:10] <LeoBodnar> *of ? surely *over
[14:10] <Laurenceb> you have to iterate over those, yes
[14:10] <Laurenceb> arg
[14:10] <Laurenceb> im going to have to do a pdf
[14:10] <eroomde> so there are two things you can do
[14:10] <Laurenceb> to explain my "A-GPS" idea
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: Oh - right - sorry - I'm not fully awake.
[14:11] <Laurenceb> basically if you know rough position and time, - ie tens of Km and seconds error
[14:11] <eroomde> all the doppler shifsts in parallel (40 in parallel assuming 500hz bins and 20kHz doppler space)
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: In that case - then certainly you need it DC coupled.
[14:11] <eroomde> OR
[14:11] <Laurenceb> then you dont need to worry about doppler
[14:11] <aadamson> SpeedEvil, no problem, but I want flexiblity either way so I think I'll dc couple
[14:11] <eroomde> all the code=phase searches in parallel (1024... obviously better)
[14:11] <Laurenceb> you can estimate it well enough
[14:11] <eroomde> the thing that makes the latter so fast vs doppler-parallel is the circular convolution theorem
[14:12] <LeoBodnar> more steps in code shift space so better extract speed efficiency there
[14:12] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:12] <Laurenceb> and if you have rough position and time, there is only 1 step in doppler
[14:12] <eroomde> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_convolution
[14:12] <eroomde> that's the key bit ^
[14:13] <eroomde> beyond the obvious-but-nice result that convolution in time domain is multiplication infreq domain
[14:13] Action: SpeedEvil imagines a head-to-head televised fight - with commentators trying to dramatise two GPS units in a field, being switched on and off once every 5 minutes for 8 hours.
[14:13] <Laurenceb> lol
[14:13] <eroomde> and we can get to freq domain quickly vs an n^2 time-domain correlation
[14:13] <SpeedEvil> I apologise for not reading properly - does the circular convoloution only apply if you miss a bit edge?
[14:14] <Laurenceb> no
[14:14] <eroomde> but it's the circular convolution theorem than enables you to search all code phases in parallel, and *that's* the exciting speed-up
[14:14] <Laurenceb> its always needed
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: It's almost getting to the point that speedups are silly. At least for the strong signal case.
[14:15] <Laurenceb> i'd call position solution in <5ms pretty silly :P
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: very.
[14:15] <Laurenceb> thats in the case of rough position and time from RTC
[14:16] <eroomde> here is the bit of code from my talk that does the code-phase-parallel search for a given PRN on a given ms of data
[14:16] <eroomde> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8418931
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: especially as with only 5ms, you can likely get a position accurately even if your clock has slipped 15ms or so.
[14:17] <Laurenceb> i was talking about 1ms of data. 4ms of processing on an stm32f4
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[14:17] <Laurenceb> thats if you use pruned FFT
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: and yes
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[14:18] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: if you've not slipped >.5ms, or know your position to within a data bit, not a problem.
[14:18] <Laurenceb> NOOO
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> err
[14:18] <Laurenceb> this isnt an issue
[14:18] <Laurenceb> you can take the sat time out as another variable
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Dur
[14:19] <Laurenceb> and the solution is stable even with just 4 sats
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[14:19] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> The 'slipped more than a data bit' means you get the orbits wrong
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> which means you're 2/3 of bugger all off.
[14:19] <Laurenceb> interestingly the goodness of fit surface is all ripply
[14:20] <Laurenceb> so a single time thats put into all the equations fails to converge
[14:20] <aadamson> SpeedEvil, so basically, dc coupling has greater flexibility if I ever wanted to *shift* the frequency of what I'm sending vs. ac coupling would always leave it centered around the 1.65 (0 shift) vc in... I think I'll leave well enough along and just leave it dc coupled... I have it both ways at the moment, both work, but that's only because the pwm is centered at vcc/2
[14:20] <Laurenceb> yet a 5DOF state vector with a satellite time component converges and is stable with 4 sats
[14:20] <aadamson> SpeedEvil, oh and THANKS!
[14:21] <Laurenceb> an interesting trick, migh come in handy for solving similar optimisation problems
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: The PWM being centreed around zero doesn't actually help if you are sending data bits which vary - and you're AC coupled.
[14:21] <aadamson> You guys just have *way* too much fun in this channel! thanks for bearing weith me!
[14:21] <eroomde> it's got pleasingly nerdy recently, this channel
[14:22] <aadamson> SpeedEvil, yes, understood... becaue of the weighting of the *bits higher or lower to 1, etc
[14:22] <eroomde> lots of techy talk
[14:22] <eroomde> rather than debugging other people's arduino problems
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: yes
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Psssst. I'm faking it.
[14:22] <aadamson> oh, do I fall in to the later ... :(... sorry if so
[14:22] <eroomde> you get away with it
[14:22] <eroomde> aadamson: no....
[14:22] <aadamson> hehe
[14:22] <aadamson> sides mine is arm based :)
[14:22] <eroomde> you can exoplain exactly what feature you find annoying in the stm32 timer
[14:23] <eroomde> that's good
[14:23] <eroomde> although i am quite impressed with their timers in general!
[14:23] <Laurenceb> wut
[14:23] <Laurenceb> stm32 timers are the god timers
[14:23] <aadamson> AGREED!
[14:23] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[14:23] <eroomde> yes, coming from other micros i was pretty blown away
[14:23] <Laurenceb> im generating 8 channel OFDM constellations with stm32f4 timers
[14:23] <eroomde> they can do anything
[14:23] <Laurenceb> and a teeny bit of passive analogue
[14:23] Action: SpeedEvil is currently being distracted by the ESA50A and crushing waves of hopelessness.
[14:23] <aadamson> compared to some others they are aewsome
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> Thinking about GPS is a pleasant alternative.
[14:24] <Laurenceb> i can DMA my constellatinos straight into them
[14:24] <aadamson> awesome
[14:24] <Laurenceb> i cant spell
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you use one timer to clock in the data to another using DMA?
[14:24] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:24] <eroomde> they're spanish constellations
[14:24] <Laurenceb> for OFDM im using master/slave mode
[14:25] <Laurenceb> to adjust the phases to keep them orthogonal
[14:25] <Laurenceb> then PWM outputs fed with DMA
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you should stop that.
[14:25] <Laurenceb> and low pass filtering
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you're making me thing actual software control of my welders PWM cycle is sane.
[14:25] <Laurenceb> heh
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[14:26] <SpeedEvil> I've got one of those devboards for that arm with the silly ADC on backorder.
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> To do a 'black box' with.
[14:26] <Laurenceb> the 80Msps?
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[14:26] <Laurenceb> atmel thing
[14:26] <Laurenceb> heh thats nuts
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> Though the lots of 10 bit channels are actually more useful
[14:27] <Laurenceb> tho stm32f3 will go up to tens of Msps
[14:27] <Laurenceb> seems to be limited more by the APB bandwidth than the ADC itself
[14:28] <Laurenceb> well i have to head off to do some construction work on my avian disco
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> I basically want to sample at at least 2Msps for a few hundred cycles every second stored to flash, for maybe 8 channels.
[14:28] <Laurenceb> bbl
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> have fun.
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Oh - have you seen operant conditioning?
[14:28] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:28] <Laurenceb> i need to read the docs and see how it effects timing
[14:29] <Laurenceb> i guess everything still needs to come in through the I bus for a start
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtfQlkGwE2U&list=FLBGlboO77mQ_IveRSyp9qpA&index=3
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> training pigeons with lights.
[14:29] <Laurenceb> omg
[14:29] <Laurenceb> all our ideas, stolen
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> (and food rewards)
[14:30] <Laurenceb> oh
[14:30] <Laurenceb> i though you were talking about ARM asm lol
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:38] <aadamson> ok, so it was fast and furious there for a few minutes, I have no idea what the topic was however... so now I'll ask... what the heck were you guys all talking about? in laymans terms please?
[14:38] <aadamson> :)
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[14:49] <SpeedEvil> Ways to beat commercial GPSs in some aspects.
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[14:49] <SpeedEvil> Commercial GPSs (the ones without tens of thousand pound pricetags) are limited in their acelleration, top speed, and other things.
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> They also tend to be optimised for low-signal multipath environments so they will reliably work on the ground, even in poor conditions.
[14:51] <SpeedEvil> If you optimise for a high signal case, you can beat the commercial offerings - simply by not needing to process nearly as much data to get a position - because you're assuming that it's really good data.
[14:51] <eroomde> the driver for a lot of the recent interes tis the following:
[14:52] <eroomde> if you can get a balloon to float indefinitely, you can do some quite interesting things
[14:52] <eroomde> to make a balloon float indefinitely, it must first ascent, then level off
[14:52] Action: SpeedEvil passes eroomde a ball of string with a weight on the end.
[14:53] <eroomde> the mechanism by which that happens is that the bag of gass expands as the outside pressure drops, until such time as the gas pressure iside starts to build up because the bag reaches it's limits of stretching
[14:53] <eroomde> with conventional latex weather balloons, what ofetn happens is that the latex bag expands until it bursts
[14:53] <eroomde> however in some cases they can be made to reach equilibrium
[14:53] <eroomde> however, they still degrade with UV light and burst within a 2-3 days or so
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTJ7AzBIJoI
[14:54] <eroomde> now, people have discovered that the alumised helium balloons you get for children's birthday parties are actually pretty resiliant
[14:54] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about silicone oil based sun-screen.
[14:54] <eroomde> and they will hold their pressure (become what's known as a 'superpressure' balloon - i.e. a balloon with a higher pressure inside than out)
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: mass production is awesome!
[14:55] <eroomde> however, they're really small compared to weither balloons
[14:55] <eroomde> this limits the payload weight to sort of <20g all-up
[14:55] <eroomde> that's quite hard to fit in a battery, gps, microcontroller, radio, insulation, etc, and have it last for any appreciable amount of time
[14:55] <eroomde> SO
[14:55] <eroomde> there is a very large empahsis on power consumption, to get the most from your battery or solar cell
[14:55] <eroomde> this means you have to start counting the joules to do things
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> Also - being able to merge the GPS and the microcontroller has some benefits.
[14:56] <eroomde> commercial gps receivers, while being fabbed on nice custom silicone, for whatever firmware/nominal-use-case reasons, can take a bit of time (therefore current) to get you a fix
[14:57] <eroomde> the question is therefore, given out requirements for a pico balloon, and how they're different from a pedestrian gps in terms of accuracy requirement and ambient conditions and whatever, can we build something that will uses less energy per fix than something off-the-shelf?
[14:57] <eroomde> if people think the answer to that is 'yes' then they will be motivated to have a go at building their own gps receiver
[14:58] <eroomde> i suspect it's very borederline, and that it's more a question of finding an off-the-shelf gps receiver with non-buggy firmware and good power-saving modes
[14:58] <eroomde> so, that's what has motivated a lot of the recent interest in DIY gps receiving
[14:58] <eroomde> now, my interest in it started last year, when i got a software one working
[14:58] <aadamson> ah, got it... makes sense.
[14:58] <Babs_> In summary, HABing in the last 3 months has been reduced to this kind of discussion http://tinyurl.com/nhd9j8r
[14:58] <eroomde> that's because i work with rockets and want something that had much better dynamic performance than a pedestrian-optimised gps
[14:59] <aadamson> Babs_, :)... on the video
[14:59] <eroomde> i gave a talk at the last UKHAS conference about how GPS worked based on what i learnt while hacking on that, and i think a few people after seeing that talk realised it wasn't as complicated as they might have thought
[14:59] <eroomde> laurenceb also has a bg in gps, i think he did stuff relating to it at the surrey space centre for a bit
[15:00] <Laurenceb> yes, before i realised i could do better things with my time than hang around that place...
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> I started out ages ago wondering about using the scenix 100MHz PICs to do GPS
[15:00] <Laurenceb> as jonsowman experienced :P
[15:01] <eroomde> what did jonsowman experience?
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> Somewhere I have a TTL PRN generator.
[15:01] <Laurenceb> UDP over I2C
[15:01] <Laurenceb> OCR of android phone screen..
[15:02] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: O....C...R.....
[15:02] Action: SpeedEvil 's head explodes.
[15:03] <eroomde> oh the sstl sat thing
[15:03] <aadamson> wait so it's not OCD! lol :)
[15:03] <eroomde> yes that was special
[15:03] <eroomde> there seems to be a lot of special once a company gets to a certain size
[15:03] <eroomde> my biggest fears are non-technical ones
[15:03] <eroomde> how do we keep the quality of people and their thought up
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Some manager saying 'keep it simple, we know the phone can output text on the screen, let's use that, rather than plugging something into the earphone socket'
[15:06] <eroomde> my 2nd biggest worry is why i have an irc window open on a 2nd screen all day long
[15:06] <Hix> :D
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> http://www.reddit.com/r/nicechips
[15:07] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t8yDnyOaQ8
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> http://www.vishay.com/product?docid=53041
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> Vishay has developed a special thin film resistor chip specifically designed to provide pyrotechnic engineers with a lot of advantages
[15:08] <Laurenceb> omg
[15:08] <Laurenceb> http://www.analog.com/en/interface-isolation/digital-isolators/adum4160/products/product.html
[15:08] Action: Laurenceb buys
[15:09] <Laurenceb> perfect for medical stuff
[15:09] <eroomde> Laurenceb: i use the ADUMs extensively
[15:09] <eroomde> have got a CAN one on the latest motor driver board, for example
[15:10] <eroomde> they're good
[15:10] <Laurenceb> nice
[15:10] <Laurenceb> i didnt realise there was USB
[15:10] <eroomde> vishay are pretty good with their stuff
[15:10] <eroomde> they sell some really nice resistors
[15:11] <eroomde> 0.01%, thermal coefficient 'not measureable'
[15:11] <eroomde> you pay for them though
[15:11] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: grr, now i just need a spin stabilised launch platform
[15:11] <eroomde> but they might make a good basis or something like a constant current source for bridge sensors measuring tiny delta-pressures in a hab
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[15:11] <Laurenceb> annoyingly it seems to be the hardest part of doing a rockoon
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yeah - I've got a couple of the USB isolators as samples
[15:11] <Laurenceb> and its the first thing that needs making
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[15:13] <eroomde> Laurenceb: what is?
[15:13] <Laurenceb> ironically it is the one thing the famous Monroe tried to build
[15:13] <Laurenceb> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FfkgwPNm3uA/S92QR_mVvvI/AAAAAAAAGiE/amkq0ItGw2c/s1600/a.jpg
[15:13] <Laurenceb> spun launcher
[15:13] <eroomde> ah
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[15:13] <Laurenceb> Monroe's launcher looks horrifically overweight and it'll wobble all over the place :-/
[15:14] <Laurenceb> also he doesnt seem to have heard of triangulation
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[15:14] <SpeedEvil> From the structural, or the RF side?
[15:17] <Laurenceb> he wants this design
[15:17] <Laurenceb> http://www.loptics.com/ATM/telescopes/16in_F4/16inF4_obs.jpg
[15:17] <Laurenceb> it pains me to say it, but i think he has the right idea
[15:18] <Laurenceb> probably that basic idea + short freefall and compressed air RCS is the most practical way i can see to launch
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> you mean spin, wait till you're about pointed right, drop off the balloon, fine-tune, and light? Or for the second stage
[15:19] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:19] <Laurenceb> this is for first stage
[15:19] <Laurenceb> second stage works with... a magnet :P
[15:19] <Laurenceb> so first stage is annoyingly complex
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> Assuming it's not swinging.
[15:20] <Laurenceb> huh? the swinging is what makes it annoying
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> Isn't it plausible to simply have it spun up, elevated to the right degree, then fire when you bear?
[15:21] <Laurenceb> i doubt you could ensure accurate firing time
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right - precession to
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> o
[15:21] <Laurenceb> especially with off the shelf reloads
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> A vastly oversized ignitor to get the pressure up in 50ms might help
[15:22] <Laurenceb> the other option is a huge flywheel
[15:22] <Laurenceb> but that spins up the balloon and it all gets complex and chaotic
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> As a momentum wheel/stabiliser oriented horizontally?
[15:22] <Laurenceb> no, off the end of the rockoon
[15:23] <Laurenceb> using long (3m long) ~1mm diameter CF rods
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Well - if you have the big kite to desaturate ike haboscope
[15:23] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> It's a pity magnetorquers aren't quite up to it
[15:23] <eroomde> you can get some decent 1.8V rail-to-rail opamps
[15:24] <Laurenceb> 2L coke bottle with 150psi air, then pyro diaphragm and three servo butterfly valves makes a good RCS
[15:24] <Laurenceb> especially at 35Km
[15:24] <Laurenceb> 100gram mass, 20Ns impulse
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> I guess it's decently expanded indeed
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> Actually - will it condense in the nozzle?
[15:25] <Laurenceb> maybe...
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> maybe argon?
[15:26] <Laurenceb> but thats not going to seriously limit the ISP
[15:26] <Laurenceb> compressed nitrogen makes a respectable RCS
[15:26] <Laurenceb> you could even use the same kit to spin up the rockoon
[15:27] <Laurenceb> but there is an annoying lack of suitable non ITAR gyros
[15:27] <Laurenceb> for the IMU
[15:28] <Laurenceb> unless the IMU "hangs" off a bearing with slip rings
[15:28] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> why do you need gyros - you mean on the spinning rocket?
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> and cross-axis contamination?
[15:28] <Laurenceb> the launch platform needs to know its attitude for running the RCS
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> I thought you were getting quite adequate performance even with the gyro/mag/accel you had
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> sub degree
[15:29] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> Or does vibration screw it
[15:29] <Laurenceb> but not whilst it was spinning at 30hz
[15:29] <Laurenceb> that would saturate it
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> Err
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right
[15:30] <Laurenceb> im talking about having rcs strapped to the rockoon
[15:30] <Laurenceb> and using it for spinup too
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> I was thinking the whole launch platform dropped off, and then ...
[15:30] <Laurenceb> yes, me too
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> Including the non-spinning bit
[15:31] <Laurenceb> of course... this would also make a very lethal improvised anti tank platform
[15:31] <Laurenceb> probably one of the reasons for the gyro ITAR limits :P
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[15:33] <SpeedEvil> It is scary how a lot of this stuff comes down to 'well, yes, if I change line 37, upgrade the servos, and change the laser pointer for a Barret, I can kill anything that moves in 5km'.
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[15:37] <eroomde> are there ITAR limits on gyros?
[15:37] <eroomde> i didn't know that
[15:38] <eroomde> makes sense i guess
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Low cost is scary in some ways.
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> No, a quadcopter can't take down an aeroplane.
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> But, they're 30 quid each, and you can make 100000 of them.
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> And a cloud of 100000 is a whole other issue.
[15:39] <YO9ICT> Where in Europe can I buy the Si4060 ?
[15:41] <eroomde> not sure, but don't be put off by things like digikey being in america
[15:41] <eroomde> (in general)
[15:41] <eroomde> it's very often much less expensive and slow and painful than you might think to get you stuff
[15:41] <eroomde> likewise mouser
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> Plus - digikey ships free over 50 quid
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> And - regrettably, ...
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[15:45] <qyx_> LeoBodnar: where did you get the se4110 from?
[15:45] <qyx_> dk?
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[15:49] <SpeedEvil> qyx_: Laurenceb had a couple spare
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> I don't think they are commercially available anymore
[15:50] <qyx_> digikey has them in 1 minimum order quantity
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> oh
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> nvm then
[15:50] <qyx_> but
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> I may have been thinking of something else
[15:50] <qyx_> i am not going to order 2 chips from dk :)
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> http://www.reddit.com/r/nicechips
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> Problem solved.
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[15:50] <SpeedEvil> :)
[15:51] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[15:51] <qyx_> ou, what a surprise
[15:51] <qyx_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SE4110L-Manu-SIGE-Encapsulation-QFN-24-/120928643723?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c27e8aa8b
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> We really need an IRC chinese person, in china.
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> To do shipping of stuff.
[15:54] <qyx_> hm, $4 shipping, $0.1 for each additional item
[15:54] <qyx_> i am ordering 4pcs \o/
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=hkutsource&iid=120928643723&de=off&items=25&which=negative&interval=30&_trkparms=negative_30
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> Several claims of recycled parts
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> Though I note they don't actually say they're not recycled
[15:57] <qyx_> New: A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item in its original packaging
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> oh
[15:57] <qyx_> they should be
[15:57] <qyx_> but
[15:57] <qyx_> who knows
[15:57] <qyx_> ill see
[16:05] <mfa298> useful stuff for the people using the PiCam on a Pi (Obviously) using Python: http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/5672
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[16:26] <Hix> ahh good work mfa298
[16:27] <mfa298> the only work I've done for that was going to the raspberrypi.org site.
[16:28] <mfa298> I've also added an update on the bottom of the rpi wiki page.
[16:28] <mfa298> now it needs a python programmer to give it a go
[16:28] <Hix> the heads up is classed as good work :)
[16:29] <mfa298> in that case I shall reward myself with Coffee :D
[16:30] <Hix> :D
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[17:13] <Laurenceb> http://www.vishay.com/docs/53044/epicappn.pdf
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[17:24] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: shiny
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[17:50] <qyx_> Laurenceb: wth
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[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:29] <ibanezmatt13> it's all very quiet Lunar_Lander, good evening
[19:30] <mclane> winter sucks
[19:30] <mclane> it's too windy up in the stratosphere
[19:31] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: you might like the bit I found on the RPI site earlier http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/5672
[19:31] <mclane> god for floaters, but not good for balloons which you want to recover
[19:31] <ibanezmatt13> thanks mfa298, will give it a read
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[19:32] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298: would have been nice if that was around for my first HAB :)
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[19:33] <Lunar_Lander> but you currently have an awesome view of the full moon and Jupiter next to it
[19:34] <mfa298> if you do another flight with the pi then it should work well for that (or anything else using the PiCam)
[19:34] <mclane> Lunar_Lander: its raining/snowing here; no Jupiter / full moon
[19:35] <ibanezmatt13> yes mfa298, it will definitely come in handy. Probably for a few non-hab Pi things I might get up to
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[19:56] <tweetBot> @nerdsville: Wife's birthday today.. do you think she'd miss the balloon? ;-) #hab #ukhas http://t.co/LevSW2kXaw
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, :(
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[20:04] <DL7AD> good evening
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> hi DL7AD
[20:05] <DL7AD> Lunar_Lander: guten abend ;) gruesse aus österreich :)
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> hi, cool :) grüße zurück
[20:08] <DL7AD> Lunar_Lander: hab ich was verpasst an ballons?
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> seit weihnachten z.B.?
[20:10] <DL7AD> hm ne eher seit neujahr
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> nicht wirklich glaub ich, bis auf PAVA gestern und wieder mal einen von leo's ballons
[20:10] <DL7AD> ick war 'n bissl abwesend
[20:11] <DL7AD> PAVA hab ich gesehen. ich konnte ihn in tirol nicht empfangen. ich war rund 2 stunden zu spät dran.
[20:11] <mclane> na ja da war doch die Armada vor 14 Tagen?
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> ja
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> aber er meinte ab neujahr
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> der superlaunch war am 27.12. :)
[20:11] <DL7AD> hm.... ja den hab ich mitbekommen
[20:11] <mclane> stimmt ;-)
[20:12] <DL7AD> juten abend mclane
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:12] <mclane> servus aus Bayern
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> und am 1.3. gibts einen start in Portugal
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:12] <DL7AD> servus aus tirol
[20:12] <DL7AD> Lunar_Lander: ui das ist aber noch ein wenig hin, wah?
[20:13] <mclane> schätze mal, dass wir davon leider nicht vierl sehen werden
[20:13] <mclane> viel (hören)
[20:13] <DL7AD> rofl ja ^^
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:13] <DL7AD> man hatte mich aus berlin nach unterstützung für einen ballon gefragt.
[20:14] <DL7AD> der termin würde wohl aber eher mai sein
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> ja
[20:15] <mclane> wir hätten eigentlich alles fertig für einen Start aber bei dem Wind/Sturm in der Stratosphäre landet der dann irgendo in Österreich
[20:15] <DL7AD> mein tracker ist jetzt übrigens so weit, dass jetzt demnächst ein prototyp gelötet wird. das wird vermutlich der letzte vor der "massenproduktion" sein.
[20:15] <mclane> ah cool
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> und ich hab die verd***** Linksprite-Kamera immer noch nicht am laufen xD
[20:16] <DL7AD> ich suche noch ein paar abnehmer ^^ weil 100stk wären für mich zu viel
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> hab aber auch länger nicht probiert
[20:16] <mclane> ich hab gerade etwas mit nem raspi in Arbeit
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[20:16] <mclane> incl. Kamera
[20:16] <mclane> geht viel besser als die Linksprite
[20:17] <DL7AD> mclane: wie? was ist Linksprite?
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[20:18] <mclane> die Linksprite ist eine Kamera
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> ja, so eine TTL-Kamera von sparkfun
[20:19] <mclane> die man per UART auslesen kann
[20:19] <mclane> und die jpg komprimierte Bilder liefert
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> ja
[20:19] <mclane> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/10061
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[20:19] Nick change: Gadget-Mac_ -> Gadget-Mac
[20:20] <DL7AD> okay.... uart hört sich cool an ^^
[20:20] <mclane> das ding taugt aber nicht viel
[20:21] <arko> was ist das?
[20:21] <mclane> max. VGA Auflösung; hat kein IR Filter --> Farben sehen strange aus
[20:21] <DL7AD> arko: a camera u can use by uart
[20:22] <arko> i just wanted to say something german
[20:22] <mclane> ok lets switch back to english ;-)
[20:22] <DL7AD> arko: rofl okay :P
[20:22] <DL7AD> mclane: could you send me a sample picture?
[20:22] <mclane> yea
[20:22] <mclane> let me see
[20:23] <mclane> need to boot the nas
[20:25] <mclane> http://imgur.com/ctGkVa5
[20:25] <mclane> that was in summer - so the stuff was green
[20:26] <DL7AD> mclane: wow.... i though it was autumn
[20:27] <mclane> this is from above - not too bad http://imgur.com/UtFFrlN
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[20:29] <DL7AD> mclane: i never knew that there are cameras having a uart output. but know i think about using the camera with my new tracking-board
[20:30] <mclane> this was the landin in the pine trees (usually also green;-) http://imgur.com/kBCGRGW
[20:31] <mclane> so I really recommend the raspi cam
[20:31] <mclane> muuuuuch better!
[20:33] <DL7AD> mclane: but it has no uart, right?
[20:34] <mclane> correct, but the raspberry pi has a dedicated interface for the camera and the SoC supports all the encoding
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[20:38] <DL7AD> mclane: how much does it consume when switched into power save mode?
[20:39] <mclane> I cannot tell you exact figures yet
[20:39] <mclane> I estimate 200-300 mA
[20:39] <mfa298> I don't think there's much power saving on the Pi, although you can turn a few bits of hardware off if you're not using them (like the HDMI port)
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[20:40] <mclane> there is a nice article from daveake
[20:40] <mclane> how to run the raspi from batteries
[20:41] <mclane> take the model A
[20:41] <mclane> and replace the 3.3V regulator
[20:41] <mclane> with a real LDO
[20:42] <craag> or a step-down
[20:42] <eroomde> i'm not sure putting an ldo back in would help much
[20:42] <mclane> yea
[20:43] <craag> I'm running a Pi+cam+ntx2b off a 9V ppa via a step-down, works great!
[20:43] <mfa298> a better LDO helps if you're running from batteries as you can have a lower dropout, but smps would be more efficient
[20:43] <craag> 7h off one Lithium 9v.
[20:44] <eroomde> that's jolly impressive
[20:44] <mfa298> the 3v3 reg on the pi is something like 1.4v drop so needs almost 5v in for the 3v3 systems (the 5v line can be lower unless you're using HDMI or USB)
[20:44] <DL7AD> i used the raspPI before running at 3.3V. it is possible to run it at 3.3V.
[20:45] <mclane> what kind of step down are you using? LM2596?
[20:45] <mfa298> craag: do you know what the capacity of the 9v lithium is off hand
[20:45] <craag> DL7AD: Yes, nothing on the pi uses 3.3V, it just needs it to supply USB devices.
[20:46] <mclane> even my wifi dongle in the USB works with 3.3v
[20:46] Action: mfa298 thinks craag means nothing on the pi uses 5V :p
[20:46] <fsphil> nothing on the Pi A uses 5v, is that also true for the Pi B?
[20:46] <DL7AD> craag: hehe yes. u're right. i switched everything to 3.3V. RTL-dongle, wifi connection. just everything :P and it worked fine.
[20:46] <craag> mfa298: yes...
[20:46] <Upu> just tie 5V to 3V on the Pi and you'll be fine
[20:47] <Upu> i.e put 3V on the 5V line
[20:47] <craag> mclane: It's a polulu device
[20:47] <craag> info: https://www.philcrump.co.uk/POPEYE
[20:47] <mfa298> fsphil: I think it's just HDMI and USB that need (or might need) 5V
[20:47] <DL7AD> mfa298: theres one chip which uses 5V. the graphical chip. but it also works at 3.3V i figured out
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> IIRC the Pi B will not work on 5
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> And there is no 'graphical chip'
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> it's integrated into the processor
[20:48] <craag> Pi B works fine on 3.3V.
[20:48] <SpeedEvil> k
[20:48] <Upu> as long as you're not using any 5V USB devices (Pi cam is 3V)
[20:48] <craag> I used it for prototyping, far easier with ssh :)
[20:48] <Upu> just tie 5V line to 3V
[20:48] <mfa298> DL7AD: if you're running HDMI then I think it needs 5V (it's part of the HDMI spec) similar for USB (the spec says 5V but some devices will work on less) but you need something on the 5v line for the power sense stuff
[20:48] <eroomde> mfa298: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/la522.pdf
[20:48] <Upu> I heard this from Eben Upton and he knows a little about the Pi
[20:48] <craag> But yeah, read daveake's article thoroughly.
[20:49] <eroomde> their numbers in their datahseets are usually good too
[20:49] <Upu> mfa298 http://imgur.com/a/5frwe
[20:49] <eroomde> i.e. not lies or optimistic
[20:49] <eroomde> you can design around them
[20:49] <craag> heh Upu, I have a diss-assembled one of those too ;)
[20:49] <DL7AD> mfa298: yes if some of the external devices has the need. but for my flight i was lucy that everything was working at 3.3V
[20:50] <Upu> I was hoping for 6 AAAA's
[20:50] <Upu> I was disappoint
[20:50] <craag> yeah me too
[20:50] <craag> rather volume inefficient infact
[20:50] <eroomde> they definitely used to be a 3x2 array of cylindrical cells
[20:50] <Upu> yes they did
[20:50] <craag> Some of the alkaline one are
[20:50] <craag> *ones
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[20:52] <mfa298> eroomde: thanks for the pdf link.
[20:52] <eroomde> they provide them for the aa and aaa ones too
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[20:53] <mfa298> I'd seen some of the other pdfs. That was going to be my port of call if someone didn't know the figure off the top of their head.
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[20:55] <eroomde> i like how consistent the curves are across discharge rates
[20:57] Action: mfa298 wonders if my wifi dongles will cope with 3v3. That should give lots of life from a 7Ah SLA (non-HAB but related)
[20:58] <craag> mfa298: Hmm, that would be good.
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[21:10] <DL7AD> gn!
[21:12] <mclane> gn!
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[21:15] <ibanezmatt13> Our next NORB flight will have the callsign $DAVID. The waves will echo the name for miles from 33+ KM, in memory of my awesome Uncle who passed away so suddenly and unexpectedly earlier today. Age 46
[21:15] <Upu> sorry to hear that ibanezmatt13
[21:15] <bertrik> sorry about your uncle
[21:16] <ibanezmatt13> I'm at the point where I just don't know what to do. It's just not right
[21:16] <Upu> take some time
[21:19] <ibanezmatt13> if one good thing happened today, it was that I found 4 straws in the house for an antenna. daveake, from Asda...
[21:20] <ibanezmatt13> ah who am I kidding, this is bloody awful. I gotta go
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[21:40] <Laurenceb_> https://www.servocity.com/html/hsg-8315bh_servo.html
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> that thing is _fast_
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[21:43] <eroomde> gosh yes
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[21:44] <Laurenceb_> fast enough to run butterfly valves for a spun rockoon launch platform
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[22:03] <eroomde> adwiens: long time no see
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[22:05] <Gadget-Mac> Laurenceb: Thats stupidly fast
[22:05] <adwiens> hey!
[22:05] <adwiens> how's it going
[22:05] <eroomde> fine
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[22:05] <eroomde> i think the last time we spoke you were about 15 or something
[22:05] <eroomde> you are presumably more than that now
[22:06] <adwiens> haha ya, 23 now
[22:06] <eroomde> have been in hab too long
[22:06] <adwiens> its a fun hobby
[22:06] <eroomde> what are you up to now?
[22:07] <adwiens> grad school mostly
[22:07] <adwiens> also looking to do another balloon for fun
[22:07] <eroomde> nice
[22:07] <eroomde> what are you studying?
[22:07] <adwiens> electrical engineering
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[22:08] <eroomde> great. what area?
[22:10] <adwiens> not 100% sure yet, but I just started a biomedical devices research project this semester, we'll see where it goes
[22:10] <eroomde> oh nice
[22:10] <eroomde> good stuff
[22:11] <adwiens> what are you up to these days?
[22:11] <eroomde> university came and went
[22:11] <eroomde> now i'm working on rocket propulsion research
[22:11] <eroomde> in industry
[22:12] <eroomde> it's grown a bit here
[22:13] <adwiens> oh wow, that's really cool
[22:13] <eroomde> about 200 people in the channel on a launch day, many tens of people across surope using the modified fldigi to upload strings to our online map
[22:14] <eroomde> and several flights a week from the uk, and poland is now probably almost as active
[22:14] <adwiens> ya i was digging around yesterday and found the habhub site, that's really neat, looks like there aren't many stations in the us though
[22:14] <eroomde> no, well you have aprs
[22:15] <eroomde> it's probably just about good enough that there's no pressing need for people to switch to our system
[22:15] <eroomde> fun as it is
[22:16] <adwiens> can you do aprs with really simple hardware though? or do you need the whole packet radio stack?
[22:16] <adwiens> i've honestly never looked into it
[22:16] <eroomde> the limitation here is that we can't Tx airborne on 2m
[22:17] <eroomde> or any band that doesn't have an explicit exemption for license-free use
[22:17] <eroomde> it's technically easy enough though
[22:18] Nick change: KingJ_ -> KingJ
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: inertia tensor is a constant right?
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> its not a function of rotation angle?
[22:22] <eroomde> sure it's usually fixed to the object
[22:22] <eroomde> relative to the objet's axes
[22:23] <Laurenceb_> got it
[22:23] <Laurenceb_> this makes sense
[22:23] <Laurenceb_> im writing a matlab simulation of a rockoon drop from a balloon :P
[22:24] <Laurenceb_> looks like a single servo + offset nozzle can do everything thats needs, if its as fast as the one i linked
[22:26] <Laurenceb_> need to put in realistic numbers and then chuck a load of random tumbles at it :D
[22:30] <adwiens> that's so cool!
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[22:32] <adwiens> has anyone here launched a rockoon before?
[22:34] <eroomde> we did a stupid tiny one once in 2007
[22:35] <eroomde> but that doesn't really count
[22:35] <eroomde> kinda gave up on plans for a 100km rockoon
[22:35] <eroomde> i think it's easier to launch from the ground, nowadays
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[22:36] <WillTablet> Hi eroomde. Watched the first third or so of that lecture
[22:36] <eroomde> how did you find it? i vaguely remember the important stuff being in the 2nd half :)
[22:38] <WillTablet> Hmm, it seems to be OK
[22:38] <WillTablet> I got most of it as it links in with what I'm studying in networking atm
[22:38] <eroomde> the important thing to take from it really is that an obvious way to cope with a channel that causes errors is to send the messave several times
[22:39] <eroomde> but that we can actually do much much better (in temr sof probability of an error for a given data rate) than just with repetition
[22:39] <eroomde> and that read-solomon, which you were asking about, is an example of a successful technique that performs well, and is easy to encode and decode
[22:40] <WillTablet> Reed Solomons are used by QR codes right?
[22:40] <eroomde> the thing in that lecture that drives the point home i think is the hard-disc where 10% of the bits are flipped - how many platters do you need for your pc to boot up reliably
[22:40] <eroomde> WillTablet: i beleive so, though don't know for sure
[22:41] <WillTablet> We are learning about them in IT
[22:41] <WillTablet> I'm taking IT
[22:41] <WillTablet> Well, computing
[22:41] <WillTablet> As of next year
[22:41] <WillTablet> Just need to shift my knowledge from python 2 to 3
[22:42] <nats`> don't shift everything
[22:42] <nats`> many stuff still run only on python 2
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[22:42] <ibanezmatt13> the most interesting thing we ever learned in IT was how IT is beneficial to the elderly. No programming.
[22:43] <WillTablet> I'm doing computing
[22:43] <WillTablet> I think most of my time will be spent helping people, although I shan't be complacent
[22:44] <WillTablet> That said, the final project, I could do in my sleep. No literally I did. I thought about it during a lucid dream
[22:44] <mfa298> 80% of any IT job is helping other people with IT even if that's not what the job description says.
[22:46] <WillTablet> It's a GCSE to be honest
[22:46] <WillTablet> It's something I can enjoy
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[22:47] <WillTablet> Which makes a change from school
[22:47] <WillTablet> *for
[22:48] Nick change: WillTablet -> Valjean
[22:48] Nick change: Valjean -> JeanValjean
[22:48] <JeanValjean> Damn
[22:48] Nick change: JeanValjean -> WillTablet
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[23:14] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: I hated that. The computer class at my school was mostly about word processors and spreadsheets. We did about one day in the year on proper programming
[23:14] <ibanezmatt13> we didn't even do a day! Dreadful isn't it. Glad I've made up for it on here :)
[23:15] <WillTablet> The GCSE is actually in programming
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[23:35] <ibanezmatt13> gn
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[23:36] <gonzo__> my course included punch tape and cards, even though they were totally obsolete by then
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[23:51] <SpeedEvil> Punching apes is cruel!
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[23:53] <fsphil> not if it punched you first
[23:58] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[23:58] <SpeedEvil> Night.
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[00:00] --- Wed Jan 15 2014