highaltitude.log.20140112

[00:00] <Upu> I was way out of horizon as usual
[00:00] <G8APZ> Upu is there a way to conserve battery and use Leo type pips?
[00:00] <LeoBodnar> lol G8APZ well done
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> The things you learn on the internet. http://www.nocirc.org/touch-test/bju_6685.pdf I now know that the average male can detect a point-load of 0.08g on his uncircumcised penis.
[00:00] <Upu> Don't see why not
[00:00] <G8APZ> I'm pretty impressed with the Diamond x-50 I bought for tracking
[00:00] <Upu> but winds were so fast I don't think it will be in range of anything in 12 hours
[00:00] <Upu> and battery life is about 28 hours @ 8'C
[00:01] <Upu> so probably less
[00:01] <LeoBodnar> The biggest power consumer is GPS, we need to sort it out
[00:01] <Upu> if I get 24 hours I'll be surprised
[00:01] <Upu> yeah I need to sit down and replicate that
[00:01] <Upu> this board has provision for turning it off entirely
[00:01] <Upu> anyway I'm tired, thanks to everyone for tracking
[00:02] <G8APZ> can the GPS be sent to sleep and wake up every 3 or 4 minutes?
[00:02] <Upu> yeah but not always worth it
[00:02] <Laurenceb_> interesting battery voltage/ altitude correlation
[00:02] <G8APZ> OK
[00:02] <Upu> and it seems to hae issues
[00:02] <Laurenceb_> im guessing temperature related to up and down drafts
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> On a more serious note.
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> Has anyone considered LORAN?
[00:02] <Laurenceb_> yes
[00:02] <Laurenceb_> but i can't find the documentation for it
[00:02] <G8APZ> Upu well have a good sleep, and thanks for the flight... always very interesting to track
[00:02] <Laurenceb_> guess its a question of trying it and seeing
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[00:03] <G8APZ> Is Loran still on air?
[00:03] <Laurenceb_> i cant find a list of tx stations and emitted power
[00:03] <Upu> night all
[00:03] <Laurenceb_> G8APZ: yes
[00:03] <LeoBodnar> Cool! x-f has calculated speeds now http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/9f099e7e19c80d01d431ab5c52ffb721#g/batterymv,altitude,_speed
[00:03] <Laurenceb_> theres enhanced LORAN and stuff now
[00:03] <Laurenceb_> with PRN and things iirc
[00:03] <G8APZ> I can only remember Loran from the 60s on Top Band!!
[00:04] <LeoBodnar> night Upu well done!
[00:04] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: I have some old docs on Loran
[00:04] <G8APZ> a friend of mine was sailing overnight from Jersey to Southampton, and they put the auto pilot on... giving a target of a known buoy in the Solent....
[00:04] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[00:04] <LeoBodnar> But isn't eLoran coming anytime now?
[00:04] <Laurenceb_> its live now
[00:05] <Laurenceb_> thats what i cant find docs for
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[00:05] <G8APZ> They dozed off and next morning, they woke with a bang... Loran had taken them to the buoy and hit it!!
[00:05] <Laurenceb_> lol
[00:05] <LeoBodnar> Haha I remember when GPS started to become ubiquitous coastguard complained people run over buoys
[00:06] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar that's as close as you need!!
[00:07] <LeoBodnar> needed new mentality
[00:07] <LeoBodnar> or paradigm shift or other BS bingo
[00:08] <LeoBodnar> but interesting side-effect
[00:08] <G8APZ> Buoys are big and hard!!
[00:09] <LeoBodnar> http://www.loran.org/ILAArchive/eLoran%20Definition%20Document/eLoran%20Definition%20Document-1.0.pdf
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> http://www.jproc.ca/hyperbolic/loran_c_sigchar.html - loran c
[00:10] <Laurenceb_> is there a map of base stations anywhere?
[00:11] <Laurenceb_> thats what i was looking for - to see if its feasible for HAB
[00:11] <LeoBodnar> Admiralty website should have them
[00:13] <LeoBodnar> http://www.iala-aism.org/
[00:13] <Laurenceb_> aha
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Loranstationscrkl.jpg
[00:14] <Laurenceb_> arg, website is rather BS
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[00:14] <Laurenceb_> oh perfect, thanks
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[00:14] <Laurenceb_> large hole over russia
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/NGA-Atlantic_Loran.png
[00:15] <Laurenceb_> ah theres some russian ones there
[00:15] <Laurenceb_> te other option is to use spherics
[00:15] <Laurenceb_> DARPA have that working apparently
[00:15] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: is 434.498 dial frequency?
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAYKA
[00:16] <Laurenceb_> "covert survivable navigation system" or something
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> Conveniently also on 100khz
[00:17] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[00:17] <Laurenceb_> so theres only a smallish gap in mid russia
[00:18] <Laurenceb_> but as its on 100kHz...
[00:18] <LeoBodnar> Russians are still using regular Loran
[00:18] <G8APZ> Laurenceb_ I noted a number of places where OS had no details... usually RAF bases where a public road went through a split site!!
[00:18] <Laurenceb_> i bet you could pull out a signal from a HAB
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: yeah.
[00:18] <Laurenceb_> maybe an E field based antenni
[00:18] <LeoBodnar> the problem is RX antennas
[00:18] <Laurenceb_> nice and light
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: j-pole.
[00:18] <LeoBodnar> ah, I'm lagging
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:19] <Laurenceb_> i can pick up spherics and sub comms easily with a pie dish
[00:19] <Laurenceb_> and decent op amp
[00:19] <LeoBodnar> maybe a loop?
[00:19] <G8APZ> Not so easy to buy an RX module off the shelf for Loran though!! and the antenna needs to be more than a 434MHz GP
[00:19] <Laurenceb_> dunno about mass
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> how do spherics five you position You detect the disturbances to the waves from known ground effect altering regions?
[00:19] <Laurenceb_> youd have to do the maths
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[00:20] <SpeedEvil> Well - practically - tehre is an easy asnwer
[00:20] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: a spheric starts off as a broadband impulse
[00:20] <Laurenceb_> as it travels it gets group delay
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> How much SNR margin does a radio have to get radio 4
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> on LW
[00:20] <Laurenceb_> you measure the spread then do statistics to locate the storm
[00:20] <Laurenceb_> heh radio 4
[00:20] <Laurenceb_> its HUGE
[00:20] <Laurenceb_> whenever i build an opamp circuit it ends up picking it up
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[00:21] <Laurenceb_> but i dunno how far it would travel
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> Very few of the loran transmitter towers seem to be under 100kw
[00:21] <LeoBodnar> Have 'mericans shut HAARP down?
[00:21] <Laurenceb_> haha
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> Or indeed chayka
[00:21] <Laurenceb_> HAARP has done its job and infected everyones minds
[00:22] <LeoBodnar> When our foil floaters start reaching US it could be a problem
[00:22] <Laurenceb_> LOL
[00:22] <Laurenceb_> its a conspiracy
[00:23] <Laurenceb_> but yeah, LORAN looks promising
[00:23] <Laurenceb_> i might try making a pie dish antenni
[00:23] <LeoBodnar> VORs are supereasy
[00:25] <Laurenceb_> http://www.vlf.it/immagine/minimal_E.html
[00:25] <G8APZ> SpeedEvil R4 LW TX relies on old obsolete valves... when they are all gone that's the end!!
[00:25] <Laurenceb_> http://www.vlf.it/immagine/_fig15.gif
[00:25] <Laurenceb_> nice
[00:25] <Laurenceb_> large Schumann resonance
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> Some quick reading indicates that LORAN-C and chayka should be quite interoperable with no real difference in the reciever.
[00:26] <G8APZ> The valves, at Droitwich in Worcestershire, are so rare that engineers say there are fewer than 10 in the world, and the BBC has been forced to buy up the entire global supply. Each lasts anywhere between one and 10 years, and when one of the last two blows the service will go quiet.
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> The envelope shapes are modestly different.
[00:26] <Laurenceb_> you could use Schumann resonance
[00:26] <Laurenceb_> but thats getting silly
[00:27] <G8APZ> BBC LW need to get up to speed on 500kW of solid state!!
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Sun-tracker/clock/magno.
[00:27] <LeoBodnar> I think Chaika uses some slightly different message numbers or whatever they are called in Loran
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yeah - the fundamental chirps don't really differ.
[00:27] <LeoBodnar> but main navigation is the same
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: you've got each station chirping in sequence.
[00:28] <G8APZ> anyone understand how the Russian Woodpecker worked or what it did?
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> wacky - I'm listening to radio 4 LW in .nl
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> -55dBm
[00:29] <LeoBodnar> I think it was either below horizon radar or frequency prober
[00:30] <G8APZ> SpeedEvil I listen in France on car radio.... and have received as far away as Costa Brava in Spain....
[00:30] <LeoBodnar> It's sad to see valves go
[00:30] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar or maybe just a loud signal to do nothing except confuse the yanks!!
[00:30] <LeoBodnar> and arc-lamps on high streets
[00:31] <LeoBodnar> Could have been just an ultimate geek uber-prank
[00:31] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar I have a PA which I use on moonbounce on 2m from my place in France... 2 triodes total o/p 1kW and one went soft
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> http://phk.freebsd.dk/loran-c/ SDR-loran
[00:32] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar I found someone selling a "pull" in USA... for $400 and $95 to send it.... ouch!!
[00:32] Action: SP9UOB-Tom has faint traces of PAVA
[00:33] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar ... I eventually bought a secondhand pair for £250
[00:33] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar The Eimac valves have not been made since 1993 and the Russian Sylvana source also stopped making themi
[00:33] <LeoBodnar> they keep their values
[00:34] <G8APZ> SP9UOB Hope you get decodes! it will decode at -14dB s/n
[00:34] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: have you looked at using VORs?
[00:35] <SP9UOB-Tom> G8APZ: -17 s/n nothing decodable nnow
[00:35] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar 8874 triode 3CX400A7
[00:36] <G8APZ> SP9UOB a vertical beam and preamp needed then!!
[00:37] <G8APZ> SP9UOB or a change in the wind direction!!
[00:37] <HA7018SWL> SP9UOB-Tom: What freq do you receive PAVA?
[00:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> $$PAVA,2338,00:37:31,47.60624,16.09401,7347,6,1347,0*ABBD
[00:38] <SP9UOB-Tom> 434.498 MHZ (DIAL)
[00:38] <SP9UOB-Tom> $$PAVA,2340,00:38:09"o w v5add? rHoc iGnu gf t
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[00:40] <G8APZ> SP9UOB that's almost a good decode!
[00:40] <SpeedEvil> http://www.rtl-sdr.com/tag/vor-demodulator/
[00:40] <LeoBodnar_> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0BI6ioB8kM8C&lpg=PA44&ots=scJS_B5mIa&dq=vor%20receiver%20principles&pg=PA27#v=onepage&q=vor%20receiver%20principles&f=false
[00:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> got green TWICE ;-)
[00:40] <G8APZ> Yippee!!
[00:41] <SpeedEvil> SP9UOB-Tom: :)
[00:41] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: VOR seems a bit more annoying than LORAN. Potentially more accurate though
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[00:43] <LeoBodnar_> There is an abundance of stations everywhere
[00:44] <G8APZ> PAVA still at a nice altitude and climbing slowly
[00:44] <G8APZ> well climbing and descending!
[00:44] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar_: true
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar_: but that's practically true of LORAN too - especially counting better airborne propagation
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[00:46] <qyx_> no visible signal on my sdr dongle
[00:46] <qyx_> apparently because no antenna is connected :S
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> So - >5m.
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> Well - it's a useful datapoint.
[00:47] <G8APZ> qyx_ I suppose that could be a problem!
[00:48] <LeoBodnar_> VORs are 108-118MHz so antenna is much easier
[00:48] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar_: there's that, yeah.
[00:48] <LeoBodnar_> unfortunately VORs are HP
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> Can you recieve them with a circularly polarised antenna oriented vertically?
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> though that will probably be physically alrger than you'd want I guess
[00:50] <LeoBodnar_> hmm
[00:50] <G8APZ> SpeedEvil how do you build a circ polarised antenna with omni pattern?
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> Point it down.
[00:51] <SpeedEvil> (or up)
[00:51] <G8APZ> then it doesn't go out to horizon!
[00:52] <G8APZ> Depends which VOR you want
[00:52] Nick change: LeoBodnar_ -> LeoBodnar
[00:53] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar are you now an Englishman? And do you like real ale? :-)
[00:53] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar or do you prefer a vodka on ice!
[00:54] <G8APZ> Or a samovar of tea!
[00:54] <LeoBodnar> lol I never liked vodka
[00:54] <LeoBodnar> I eat caviar for breakfast
[00:54] <LeoBodnar> not really :D
[00:54] <LeoBodnar> I also look like a meerkat
[00:55] <LeoBodnar> hehe
[00:55] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar That'll be the cold hard winters in USSR!
[00:55] <qyx_> lol ussr
[00:56] <G8APZ> qyx_ as was....
[00:56] <G8APZ> I must have missed the news that day.... it was USSR then it all fell apart!!
[00:57] <G8APZ> I expect the politicians f******d up
[00:57] <LeoBodnar> I am struggling to recall a decade when they haven't
[00:57] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar Caspian Sea Caviar of course.... vodka, blinis and caviar .... yuk!!!
[00:58] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar you are right! Did you watch PQ17 on BBC recently?
[00:58] <LeoBodnar> It's tough live but you have to pull yourself together and carry on
[00:58] <LeoBodnar> *f
[00:59] <LeoBodnar> If a sporadic TV viewer
[00:59] SP9UOB-Tom (~verox@matrix.verox.pl) left irc: Quit: nite
[00:59] <LeoBodnar> TV watcher would be more suitable
[00:59] <LeoBodnar> *I am
[01:00] <LeoBodnar> Does this thing have a predictive typing of sorts?
[01:00] <LeoBodnar> Sometimes typos are so weird
[01:00] <SiC> http://www.flickr.com/photos/russell_w_b/sets/72157603792453070
[01:00] <SiC> interesting photo set
[01:01] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar Try BBC iPlayer look for PQ17: An Arctic Convoy Disaster....
[01:01] <SiC> BBC Droitwich R4 transmitter
[01:01] <SiC> in 1984
[01:01] <SiC> inside the building
[01:02] <LeoBodnar> will do!
[01:02] <SiC> http://www.flickr.com/photos/russell_w_b/152496308/in/set-72157603792453070/
[01:02] <SiC> Mezzanine Floor, Droitwich Transmitter Hall
[01:02] <SiC> "Do you remember how you couldn't really turn the lights out? There were parts when the lights stayed on continuosly, you couldn't tell if the switch was on or off, du to the fluorescent tubes picking up RF."
[01:02] <SiC> haha
[01:03] <LeoBodnar> lol the age of innocence
[01:03] <Laurenceb_> so thats what messes up my opamps
[01:03] <SiC> some of the stories on there in the comments are hilarious
[01:03] <SiC> http://www.flickr.com/photos/russell_w_b/152496773/in/set-72157603792453070/
[01:03] <SiC> Droitwich Engine-House
[01:03] <SiC> "The open switchboard was the kingdom of a welsh guy we called "Taff", as obnoxious as he was he knew his way around it. We got struck by lightning once when I was looking at it & ended up almost blind with arc eye. The diesls were amazing beasts, you cranked them into starting positon BY HAND! then started them with air. It is one of the most amazing things I've evere done. What a noise!
[01:03] <SiC> The diesel mechanic was a dirty old man. When staff visited from Birmingham studios he made sure the girls walked the cylinder head gantry while the engine ran. The viration would maek their nipples stand out. I'm not kidding!"
[01:05] <G8APZ> SiC Love it!! The DOM was on the ground looking up I expect!!
[01:07] <Laurenceb_> Hungary
[01:07] <G8APZ> and 9A receiver
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[01:08] <G8APZ> Such a shame that after Hungary... trackers are rare
[01:09] <G8APZ> SiC at night did they have UV tubes to make white undies light up?
[01:09] <SiC> lol
[01:09] <SiC> no idea
[01:10] <SiC> just came across this chaps photostream when doing a bit of link clicking about droitwich
[01:10] <G8APZ> I once met a German beauty... in Spain on holiday.... and took her to a night club where they had UV!!!
[01:11] <LeoBodnar> lol
[01:11] <G8APZ> It revealed skimpy knickers and a low cut bra!!!
[01:12] <SiC> lol
[01:12] <SiC> http://www.flickr.com/photos/russell_w_b/152501300/in/set-72157603792453070/
[01:12] <SiC> WB400 Carrier Warning Receiver
[01:12] <SiC> Used to provide warning of nuclear attack
[01:14] <SiC> http://www.flickr.com/photos/russell_w_b/152501639/in/set-72157603792453070/ <- the magic valve thats apparently so rare
[01:14] <SiC> that is the heart of the R4 broadcast
[01:14] <SiC> interesting comment about them on that page though
[01:16] <G8APZ> I'm sure some Chinese company would relish the thought of £30,000 to make one or ten!!
[01:17] <G8APZ> Or even £300k for 10
[01:18] <LeoBodnar> They can make the whole of the UK for £300k
[01:19] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar Or move production to a cheaper place!
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[01:20] <HA7018SWL> Started receiving something. Not sure it is PAVA.
[01:21] <LeoBodnar> It turned out once it was more expensive to get one LCD screen replacement from the original supplier than to get Chinese to design a replacement from scratch and supply 1000 (MOQ)
[01:21] <LeoBodnar> some esoteric custom screen
[01:21] <LeoBodnar> some 80's avionics
[01:22] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar That is the problem with a developed economy.... there is always somewhere cheaper
[01:23] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar I heard a horror story.... in avionics.... they built some units with Chinese components... they were just lumps of plastic with legs. and nothing inside..
[01:23] <LeoBodnar> Sometime in the future it will turn around
[01:24] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar The future developments will be in Silverstone!
[01:25] <gonzo_> they had that with flash ram chips some years ago
[01:25] <LeoBodnar> Probably a scare but some people in the US went to jail for supplying military with spare parts as NOS but in fact recovered by Chinese and sold on the street markets
[01:25] <SiC> sparkfun had that with some atmels
[01:25] <LeoBodnar> They made into F-15s iirc
[01:25] <gonzo_> a while load of counterfiet ones got into the chain and they were just empty.
[01:26] <G8APZ> gonzo yes... and the supply chain is duff.. supposed to be auditable
[01:27] <gonzo_> we ended up buying soem processors a few years ago, with one time proms. Turned out the lot were already programmed
[01:27] <gonzo_> not much use
[01:28] <G8APZ> THere are Chinese suppliers of 5.7GHz PA chips... 25W out....and nothing inside!
[01:28] <gonzo_> the qa is oly as good as the honesty of the suppliers and at some point that is zero
[01:28] <LeoBodnar> http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/08/1117/counterfeitelectronics.html
[01:29] <LeoBodnar> "Most counterfeit products found in military avionics systems in 2007 (3,282) were previously used microcircuits that were remarked as being higher grade than what was required for the military application. There were 740 incidents in 2007 of new microcircuits "re-marked as higher grade"; 248 incidents of used microcircuits that were being sold as being new; 214 incidents of "fake (non-working) original component manufacture
[01:29] <SiC> only set to get bigger as the miltary uses more and more COTS
[01:30] <SiC> *bigger problem
[01:31] <G8APZ> It is all depressing to read... I once heard from a friend in MOD that light bulbs were to be totally trackable to supplier and every part of it... glass , tungsten, etc.... and the cost per unit was over £100
[01:31] <SpeedEvil> haha. http://phk.freebsd.dk/loran-c/Chains/ My honeymoon actually allowed me to visit the Loran transmitter which emits the master signal for this chain. Here are some pictures from the visit.
[01:31] <gonzo_> an understanding wife!
[01:32] <gonzo_> but I suppose, start how you intend to go on.
[01:35] <WillTablet> What is LORAN C?
[01:35] <SpeedEvil> WillTablet: It is a navigation system popular before GPS
[01:35] <SpeedEvil> Well - what GPS 'replaced'
[01:35] <WillTablet> Don't they still use beacons in aviation ?
[01:35] <SpeedEvil> Though people are realising there are issues with GPS - hence it's not died out totally
[01:35] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[01:36] <SpeedEvil> See the above mentioned 'VOR'
[01:36] <SiC> http://www.flickr.com/photos/russell_w_b/2512456492/in/set-72157603795862341/
[01:36] <SiC> English Electric AR64 Excitron Rectifiers, BBC Rampisham, Dorsetshire, 1990
[01:36] <SiC> Two of the excitron mercury-arc rectifiers used in Marconi BD253-type senders 35 and 36 to obtain the 11kV transmitter HT supply.
[01:36] <SiC> Controlled by a 148V sine-wave superimposed on a negative DC line applied to the grid, the device conducts when the AC takes the DC positive.
[01:36] <SiC> Occasionally, one would encounter a 'sticky dipper', and would effect a cure by poking the excitron cabinet (gently!) with a broom-handle.
[01:36] <SiC> haha!
[01:36] <SiC> try doing that with solid state technology!
[01:40] <G8APZ> SiC a sticky dipper... I'm too old for that!!
[01:42] <G8APZ> Goodnight all... I'm off to my bed
[01:43] <SiC> me too
[01:43] <SiC> night
[01:43] <G8APZ> Zzzzzzzzzz
[01:43] <G8APZ> =======================
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[03:44] <MLow_work> whats a good acent rate that doesnt risk floating?
[03:47] <MLow_work> the calculator in cusf says that if i have an 800g payload on a 600g balloon and fill it with 80cu ft of h2, i will have an ascent rate of 5.42m/s and a burst @ 27km
[03:49] <MLow_work> less h2 = less ascent rate and more altitude
[03:49] <MLow_work> but im worried about the prospect of it floating
[03:55] <adamgreig> 5m/s should be safe
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[03:55] <MLow_work> thanks
[03:56] <MLow_work> hydrogen seems really cheap, either that or im looking at the wrong price lists pdf's
[03:56] <MLow_work> airgas has 99.9 pure for $50@300cu ft
[03:56] <adamgreig> hydrogen is pretty cheap
[03:56] <MLow_work> i was thinking of buying a couple 80cu ft tanks, i think those would fit in my trunk
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[04:25] <SpeedEvil> natural gas is even cheaper.
[04:26] <SpeedEvil> Though admittedly - half the lift.
[04:26] <SpeedEvil> _waaay_ cheaper though - $1/m^3 or so
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[05:10] <MLow> SpeedEvil: not sure if its worth it when h2 has better lift than he
[05:11] <SpeedEvil> Not really noticably.
[05:11] <SpeedEvil> - very very noticably than natural gas of course.
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[06:26] <yo9hzn> any news about pava?
[06:27] <yo9hzn> i am trying to spot-it and don't hear anything yet
[06:28] <yo9hzn> ok
[06:28] <yo9hzn> heard now
[06:30] <yo9hzn> weak signal in my balcony...
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[06:44] <yo9hzn> 812,24.584
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[07:12] <yo9hzn> v
[07:12] <yo9hzn> $$PAVA,3583,07:11:37,46.29017,25.30055,7151,7,1406,0*8B42
[07:12] <x-f> woo, nice job decoding it, yo9hzn! :)
[07:13] <x-f> good morning, early birds
[07:13] <yo9hzn> good morning
[07:14] <yo9hzn> noisy area in my balcony....i should go mobile....
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[07:15] <x-f> where in Romania are you? i can't find you on the map
[07:21] <yo9hzn> kn24rw
[07:21] <yo9hzn> Targoviste
[07:22] <yo9hzn> ok
[07:22] <yo9hzn> fix the gps position in dl-fldigi
[07:23] <x-f> yeah, your tower is on the map now
[07:23] <yo9hzn> i spot the pava with ft-897 and switch to rtl-sdr
[07:24] <yo9hzn> no audio cable for ft but it works pretty well with sdr sharp
[07:24] <x-f> cool
[07:25] <x-f> prediction for PAVA - http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/16782_trj001.gif
[07:30] <yo9hzn> i lost-it again.....
[07:31] <yo9hzn> a tall building is in the direction of hab
[07:53] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
[07:53] <DL1SGP> good morning, great to see that PAVA is still floating happily
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[08:11] <yo9hzn> yo9gly decode now
[08:11] <jcoxon> morning all
[08:11] <yo9hzn> i got him to listen to hab, and help setting dl-fldigi
[08:12] <jcoxon> oooo PAVA has made it to romania
[08:12] <Darkside> europ coming in really nic on 10m
[08:12] <Darkside> DL1SGP: got HF?
[08:13] <jcoxon> uu4jlm_Valery, finally a balloon that might actually make it to you!
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[08:20] <uu4jlm_Valery> I receive, I have the high mountains to the west and see what I hear.
[08:21] <jcoxon> uu4jlm_Valery, hopefully it'll swing all the way past you as it goes East
[08:21] <jcoxon> uu4jlm_Valery, do you know any other people who could listen on their radios?
[08:22] <Upu> wow
[08:22] <Upu> morning all
[08:22] <Upu> :)
[08:23] <YO9ICT> morning guys
[08:23] <Upu> morning
[08:23] <YO9ICT> my friend YO9GLY tracked it, I don't know why it stopped, let me check
[08:24] <eroomde> quite a daily mail trajectory
[08:24] <jcoxon> eroomde, reverse trajectory surely
[08:25] <Upu> thanks YO9ICT
[08:25] <eroomde> liam yliad
[08:25] <Upu> lol yeah
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[08:26] <eroomde> amusingly it's not a million miles from an yliad trajectory
[08:26] <Upu> battery voltage jumped up in the sun light
[08:27] <eroomde> science
[08:27] <Upu> lol
[08:27] <yo9hzn> hi edi
[08:28] <YO9ICT> Salut, ti-am dat sms acum, suna ocupat si la tine si la GLY
[08:28] <yo9hzn> yo9gly hears the signal much weak now then earlyer
[08:28] <yo9hzn> guess why
[08:29] <YO9ICT> mountains
[08:30] <yo9hzn> suntem in convorbire
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[08:39] <YO9ICT> Upu, I'm searching for Ukraine guys on ON4KST chat
[08:39] <YO9GLY> $PAVA,3835,08:31:25,46. 49222,27.51261
[08:39] <YO9GLY> mai e :)
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[08:41] <YO9ICT> stiu, dar sa avem ajutoare
[08:41] <YO9GLY> da ....ca nu mai e
[08:42] <YO9GLY> nu are crc
[08:42] <YO9ICT> Ba da, l-am auzit ieri cu un SDR din UK
[08:43] <YO9GLY> da, ziceam ca nu am luat eu crc-ul
[08:43] <YO9ICT> uu4jlm_Valery When it will fly into your range?
[08:43] <YO9GLY> la ce am postat
[08:43] <YO9ICT> YO9GLY Am inteles
[08:44] <Upu> thanks YO9ICT
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[08:45] <Upu> I suspect it has about 3 hours battery left
[08:45] <Upu> 6 at most
[08:45] <YO9ICT> No problem, too bad all the balloons are lost when they fly toward Russia
[08:45] <Natio> Hello everyone. I'm Natio, exploring channels on Freenode! Don't mind me, i'm just curious
[08:46] <Upu> welcome explorer
[08:46] <eroomde> a wondering explorer
[08:46] <eroomde> you've come across an amateur balloon flight
[08:46] <Natio> Cool!
[08:46] <Natio> :D
[08:46] <Natio> Whats it's purpose? =o
[08:46] <Upu> here : http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[08:46] <eroomde> it was launched in the uk yesterday, and is now over romania heading towards russia
[08:47] <Natio> Omg thats a long way!!
[08:47] <Natio> Jesus!
[08:47] <Natio> What time yesterday?
[08:47] <Upu> thats what happens when you get go of a party balloon
[08:47] <eroomde> it's a tiny balloon, of the sort used for birthday parties, and amateur radio enthusiasts are tracking its transmissions, which include a position from an onboard gps
[08:47] <Upu> midday
[08:47] <Natio> Omg thats so awesome xD
[08:48] <YO9ICT> Too bad when they fly to Mother Russia, no one there xD
[08:48] <Natio> Lool :D
[08:49] <Natio> But hey, it has a great value that information.. Thinking about it.. If the balloon could carry a computer to listen on networks inside Russia..
[08:49] <Natio> Dont mind me lol.
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[08:50] <YO9ICT> "A balloon to peer into the secrets of Kremlin"
[08:50] <Natio> Seems like its already carrying a transmitter
[08:50] <Natio> Lool exactly! :D
[08:52] <Natio> I imagine, that you with a small piece of firework, and a 9-volt battery, would be able to put ur transmitter down any place you desire, that it travels across(taking that the fuse and powder remains dry on the flight)
[08:53] <Natio> Might as well.. I dont imagine that u plan to get it back by travellin to its crash location
[08:53] <YO9GLY> The Russian Federal Guard Service (FSO), who are in charge of protecting high level politicians like president Putin (amongst others), are 'upgrading' to electric typewriters for writing sensitive documents
[08:54] <YO9GLY> so, no chance
[08:54] <YO9GLY> :)
[08:54] <Natio> Lol.. xD
[08:54] <eroomde> well, you probably wouldn't trust most operating systems for that kind of thing
[08:55] <eroomde> unless you give them some lockeddown openBSD install + vim (which i don;t think i'd mind as a writing environment) the US can probably get to it
[08:56] <Natio> They have a point tho.. The Mandiant report and the NSA scandal indicates, that one has to take that into account if they want to protect their secret.. However.. A computer with no netcard would do the trick as well i guess..
[08:56] <Natio> But then again.. Powerline hacking.. Which i know nothing about, might get some data from it anyways..
[08:57] <mikestir> see TEMPEST
[08:57] <jcoxon> right!
[08:57] <jcoxon> back on topic please
[08:57] <mikestir> bah I missed a flight oop north
[08:57] <Natio> Sorry, i got carried away x)
[08:58] <jcoxon> we need some one tracking in Odessa
[08:58] <Natio> Eeeh... Can i help..? :-/
[08:59] <Natio> I'm not a scientist tho, but very curious ^^
[08:59] <jcoxon> Natio, so there are networks of people who listen out
[08:59] <jcoxon> the problem is that they need to be approximately in the blue circle to have a chance of hearing the transmissions
[08:59] <jcoxon> not that many balloons make it down to Ukraine
[08:59] <Natio> What hardware do they need to hear it?
[09:00] <jcoxon> either a TV/Radio dongle or a amateur (ham) radio setup
[09:00] <Natio> How can i help to contact amateurs down there with such gear?
[09:01] <jcoxon> i think we've sent emails already
[09:01] <Natio> Im thinking maybe one could google the universities down there and ask them to help out
[09:01] <jcoxon> we'll just have to wait and see
[09:01] <Upu> there is a free receiver in Ukraine
[09:01] <Upu> remotehams.com
[09:01] <Upu> but can't seem to get any audio out of it
[09:02] <jcoxon> uu4jlm_Valery is also on the case and might be able to get some data when it gets a bit closer
[09:02] <Upu> its not going to have much battery left
[09:03] <mikestir> is it single AA?
[09:03] <Upu> single AAA
[09:03] <mikestir> right
[09:03] <Upu> anyone got a remote HAM's account and the RCForb client ?
[09:04] <Natio> I wish i knew half the stuff u guys were talking about. Sounds very nerdy :)
[09:05] <Natio> I got good google skills tho
[09:05] <Upu> sit back and watch for a while
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[09:06] <qyx_> Upu: :D
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[09:06] <YO9ICT> Upu , i'm amazed how easy you guys let go of the precious trackers, especially the relative expensive ublox chips..
[09:07] <Natio> Maybe you can find some info there :/ https://www.google.dk/search?q=remote+HAM+%7C+RCforb&oq=remote+HAM+%7C+RCforb&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7384j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#es_sm=93&espv=210&q=remote+HAM+%7C+RCforb+%22login%22+%2B+%22password%22+%2B+ukraine
[09:07] <Upu> its ok you don't need to post that Natio
[09:07] <Upu> YO9ICT if you can shoot it down its yours
[09:08] <Natio> Ok, ill sit back and idle :)
[09:08] <jcoxon> YO9ICT, we've got costs down quite a bit now
[09:09] <Upu> yup
[09:09] <YO9ICT> Upu :-)
[09:09] <YO9ICT> I'm trying to talk to UT5JCW from Sevastopol, but the track seems to miss it
[09:10] <Upu> would be nice to get a few more before the battery dies
[09:10] <Upu> solar next time
[09:10] <Upu> still not bad for an AAA
[09:10] <YO9ICT> jcoxon , but it still costs 30-50 pounds to make a single tracker, nevermind the delivery times for the individual components
[09:11] <Upu> I run the shop :)
[09:11] <jcoxon> YO9ICT, 30 - 50 pounds for an evening out in a resturant etc and its kept us entertained and out of trouble for a good 16 hours
[09:11] <Upu> right off to walk dog
[09:11] <Upu> back later
[09:12] <jcoxon> YO9ICT, but yes ideally we'd recover the payloads
[09:12] <jcoxon> should avoid wasting it
[09:13] <ibanezmatt13> Must admit, I'd be quite upset if I lost the NORB board this Feb after all that's gone into it. But it's just one of those risks you take
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[09:13] <YO9ICT> UT5JCW cannot help us, but he agrees to put details in the VHF UA region
[09:13] <Natio> How about calling people in the surrounding where it drops, and ask them to recover it and send it back.. For a price ofc..?
[09:14] <YO9ICT> I need a page will all the details, jcoxon can you provide that?
[09:14] <jcoxon> YO9ICT, how about:
[09:14] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide:russian
[09:15] <jcoxon> and that they need to select PAVA in the drop down box in dl-fldigi
[09:15] <jcoxon> and then switch to THOR16
[09:15] <jcoxon> and its 434.498 USB
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[09:16] <YO9ICT> Sent that info
[09:17] <jcoxon> thanks
[09:17] <YO9ICT> From there do you get your gps chip, besides Upu?
[09:18] <YO9ICT> Sergey UT5JCW : OK I will place the info soon and double it on Russian VHF portal too
[09:18] <jcoxon> i think most people get them from upu as he is able to buy in larger volumes
[09:18] <jcoxon> but ublox have suppliers in most companies
[09:18] <jcoxon> might be able to get small volumes from them
[09:19] <YO9ICT> Ok
[09:20] <qyx_> btw there are also quectel modules
[09:20] <qyx_> which might be usable for floater
[09:20] <qyx_> s
[09:21] <qyx_> they are super cheap, around $10
[09:21] <jcoxon> yeah in theory all gps could be used for mylar floater
[09:21] <jcoxon> as long as it remained below 18km
[09:21] <jcoxon> but not for high alt latex floaters
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[09:21] <qyx_> 10.1x9.7x2.5 mm,UART,18-pin SMD,MT3339
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[09:22] <qyx_> i got 1pcs quote for 8.62e
[09:22] <YO9ICT> jcoxon have you managed to listen with the radio at remotehams.com ?
[09:22] <jcoxon> i haven't tried
[09:22] <jcoxon> i think it was upu
[09:23] <jcoxon> also don't have a windows machine to run the software on
[09:24] <number10> nice PAVA flight Upu
[09:27] <eroomde> lovely isn't it
[09:27] <eroomde> graceful grand tour of europe
[09:27] <eroomde> jetsrream smiles on us
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[09:28] <ibanezmatt13> yes, perfect
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[09:34] <YO9ICT> Talked with UA3TFA , but he is away, near Novgorod
[09:35] <eroomde> i love place names like that
[09:35] <eroomde> central and northern russia has a huge mystique to me
[09:35] <x-f> it means "new city"
[09:35] <eroomde> i want to see all these old five-year-plan cities
[09:35] <Natio> The crew from Jackass once visitted Denmark.. They passed through a city on their way, that made them laugh a lot.. "Middelfart"
[09:36] <eroomde> with names like Magnetogorsk and Elektrabisk
[09:36] <Natio> Lol x)
[09:36] <YO9ICT> http://forum.vhfdx.ru/sputniki/a-omo-eme-teemet-ooo-aa/msg177723/?topicseen#new
[09:37] <YO9ICT> http://vhfdx.at.ua/forum/9-465-5#17362
[09:37] <YO9ICT> This is all I can do , hoe we will get it at least one more time
[09:37] <eroomde> excellent
[09:38] <number10> it would be good to get some russian trackers.
[09:39] <number10> It was great to get ukranians over on the christmas flights
[09:40] <number10> -over
[09:41] <eroomde> it's cool that picos nicely fill the gap in the off season
[09:42] <eroomde> when the jetstream is all wrong for habs and you usually want to get them back as the payloads are more involved
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[09:43] <number10> it is. Anu was infact a 1600g, and Pava has travelled neally as far
[09:43] <number10> for a foil balloon that good
[09:44] <number10> I have a payload here - very tempted but I thing 30g is difficult to get a float
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[09:47] <mclane> upu: would you share the schematics of pava?
[09:48] <YO9ICT> Yea, I subscribe to that !
[09:48] <Upu> hey mclane
[09:48] <mclane> hi upu
[09:48] <Upu> its just an LTC3506 stepup + normal ATmega328P board with MAX7C and the Si4060 reference circuit for a radio
[09:49] <Upu> http://imgur.com/a/j4wE6#v3sg93U
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[09:50] <mclane> what is the tcxo you are using?
[09:50] <eroomde> there are two xtals?
[09:50] <Upu> yeah
[09:51] <Upu> one is for the µC (16Mhz DIV/8 to run @ 2Mhz)
[09:51] <Upu> the other is a 16.369Mhz tcxo for the radio
[09:52] <eroomde> that's so close as to be annying
[09:52] <eroomde> and the gps will have it's own one too
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[09:52] <Upu> http://uk.farnell.com/txc/7l-16-369mbg-t/oscillator-tcxo-16-369mhz-smd/dp/2095948
[09:52] <Upu> yup
[09:52] <Upu> 48Mhz I think ?
[09:52] <eroomde> that's a lot
[09:52] <eroomde> would be surprised if it was that high
[09:53] <Upu> its something like that as it can't do 10Mhz output from it cleanly
[09:53] <Upu> but 8Mhz is fine
[09:53] <Upu> afk cooking
[09:53] <eroomde> sure, but the xtal itself won't be as high as the cpu freq
[09:53] <eroomde> it'll be PLL'd up inside the chip
[09:58] <Upu> probably , Darkside knows I believe
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[09:58] <Upu> https://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/Timing_AppNote_%28GPS.G6-X-11007%29.pdf
[09:58] <Upu> Note, that the time pulse is derived internally from a 48 MHz clock, which causes a jitter to the time pulse [3].
[09:59] <Upu> doesn't say how that clock is generated though
[09:59] <Upu> but I knew I'd read 48Mhz somewhere
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[10:00] <eroomde> 99% of embedded uC systems will do a clock <25Mhz
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[10:00] <eroomde> and PLL up
[10:00] <eroomde> i've seen that note before i think
[10:00] <eroomde> if there's a circuit to smooth the phase noise at the bottom
[10:00] <eroomde> yep
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[10:01] <eroomde> that's probably hgelp with the jittery 10Mhz thing
[10:01] <eroomde> though at the cose of taking more power
[10:01] <Upu> don't think power is an issue on the timing applications
[10:01] <eroomde> no indeed
[10:02] <eroomde> unless it's embedded
[10:02] <eroomde> sometimes want accurate time on flying things
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[10:02] <number10> thats a bit annoying that TXCO is US stock only
[10:03] <eroomde> that annoys me a lot
[10:03] <eroomde> there .368 is in stock in the uk iirc
[10:03] <mikestir> upu: I was going to ask you about that 16.369 ref. Can you show your working? I calculated 16.384 (or 32.768, which is less out of spec) would give you the right 15.625 Hz channel step. are you using a different baud rate or have I gone wrong somewhere?
[10:03] <eroomde> and i think rs has the .369 parts in stock
[10:04] <number10> I clicked buy - not realising the extra cost once
[10:04] <eroomde> the cortex jtag headers with polarity protection are US-stock too, which is annoying
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[10:07] <Upu> mikestir its just Fcrystal/2^21
[10:07] <Upu> or the other way up
[10:07] <Upu> bbs
[10:08] <mikestir> agreed, so 16.384MHz/2^21 = 7.8125 (for dominoex8 or 16)
[10:09] <number10> RS website is beyond useless - fails to find a search on TXCO
[10:10] <mikestir> and it still fails to find a search in TCXO
[10:10] <mikestir> on*
[10:10] <number10> yes sorry my typing is verry bad
[10:11] <mikestir> farnell has 16.384 MHz tcxos on uk stock but they are really expensive
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[10:30] <YO9ICT> UY0LL is online
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[10:44] <kpiman> PAVA out of range?
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[10:46] <Upu> yeah think so
[10:48] <kpiman> still a couple of stations if it remains alive.
[10:48] <kpiman> It's done very well
[10:49] <Upu> yup quite pleased with it
[10:49] <Upu> if it doesn't get another RX before midday I suspect thats it
[10:49] <uu4jlm_Valery> While unfortunately not hear anything;( I have to Mountain West
[10:49] <Upu> no problems uu4jlm_Valery
[10:49] <Upu> few more hours before I'm calling it dead
[10:51] <jedas> they're catching cygnus in ISS http://www.ustream.tv/channel/6540154
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[11:09] <SP3OSJ> #habhub
[11:11] <qyx_> wut
[11:11] <LeoBodnar> yay PAVA
[11:12] <LeoBodnar> Battery level 1.398v
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[11:12] <YO9ICT> SP3OSJ Launch ?
[11:14] <LeoBodnar> MAX7C uses 26 MHz crystal
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[11:16] <eroomde> good info
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[11:16] <eroomde> believe the jupiter wanted something a lot less
[11:17] <LeoBodnar> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/MAX-7C.jpg
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[11:18] <LeoBodnar> and it's a regular XTAL, not TCXO
[11:18] <SP3OSJ> Hi please enter: Doc ID:864a482e8ba78926bee6a59b039693ce
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[11:21] <qyx_> i was expecting more passives inside
[11:22] <Upu> 7Q has the TCXO
[11:23] <LeoBodnar> Are you using 7Qs?
[11:23] <Upu> nope
[11:23] <Upu> doesn't run down to 1.8V
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[11:23] <Upu> yep battery looked good
[11:24] <Upu> but sadly no receivers
[11:24] <Upu> it will be dead by lunch time
[11:24] <LeoBodnar> Will run until tonight
[11:24] <Upu> no
[11:24] <Upu> power on was 12:40
[11:25] <Upu> in ideal conditions it will run for just over 28 hours
[11:25] <Upu> under open sky
[11:25] <Upu> it was getting rather low last night so I doubt it will run for that
[11:25] <Upu> My guess is if we haven't heard from it by 12:00 its dead
[11:26] <Upu> however exceeded my expections considerably so quite chuffed
[11:26] <LeoBodnar> yeah you should be!
[11:29] <Upu> SP3OSJ in the air
[11:30] <eroomde> leftover pie o'clock
[11:30] <YO9GLY> so this is the last received location of PAVA at 8:31 46.492220, 27.512610 ?
[11:30] <Upu> just had a full english
[11:31] <Upu> where did that come from YO9GLY ? Partial ?
[11:31] <YO9GLY> yes
[11:31] <Upu> oh nice
[11:31] <eroomde> a full english would have gone down well
[11:31] <LeoBodnar> Does parallel search require FP FFT or is it all integer?
[11:32] <eroomde> you could do it fixed point i'm sure
[11:33] <LeoBodnar> cool, the speed increase is just too good
[11:33] <LeoBodnar> vs exhaustive correlation search
[11:33] <eroomde> oh yes, it's a no-brainer
[11:34] <eroomde> so the key to it is circular convolution
[11:34] <eroomde> which does all the phase shifts in parallel
[11:35] <eroomde> to turn a convolution into a correlation, you convolve with the complex conjugate of the fft of the prn
[11:35] <eroomde> and that's the trick you use that buys you the 1024x speed increase
[11:36] <eroomde> hard to explain over ascii but algebraically quite simple
[11:36] <LeoBodnar> are all PRN FFTs tabulate or computed?
[11:36] <eroomde> i'd pre-compute them for embedded
[11:36] <eroomde> probably
[11:36] <LeoBodnar> missing characters day
[11:37] <nats`> hi boyz
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[11:38] <eroomde> for our propper gps sdr we precompute all the PRNS
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> what frontend are you using if this is not and NDA info?
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[11:41] <LeoBodnar> I know that you are using secret flipped-chip TCXO
[11:42] <LeoBodnar> for reverse FFT
[11:42] <eroomde> yes that's the secret
[11:42] <eroomde> my chip is from Maxim
[11:42] <eroomde> much for much with the sige
[11:42] <LeoBodnar> thanks
[11:42] <eroomde> however i've also been doing a from-scratch front end
[11:42] <eroomde> for dual frequency
[11:43] <eroomde> but i'm running into a brick wall without a vna
[11:43] <LeoBodnar> I am amazed that reducing frontend ADC resolution from 4 bit to 1 bit does not change the result significantly
[11:43] <eroomde> trying to characterise the phase delay exactly on each branch after the split
[11:43] <eroomde> yeah, it's amazing
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[11:44] <eroomde> it's really all about sampling
[11:44] <eroomde> sampling frequency*
[11:44] <LeoBodnar> Time for R&S visit
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[11:44] <eroomde> ZVL
[11:44] <eroomde> i want it back
[11:44] <YO9ICT> !!!!
[11:44] <YO9ICT> PAVA
[11:45] <Upu> awesome :)
[11:45] <eroomde> and yeah, with 1 bit, having an LO that is just 1 bit (so you can just xor registers together) also doesn't cose much vs having a higher resolution LO
[11:45] <eroomde> cost*
[11:45] <LeoBodnar> I have reduced data samples to 1 bit and use 1 bit LO
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[11:46] <qyx_> btw the sample data are at 8bit?
[11:46] <qyx_> or?
[11:46] <eroomde> henry did exactly that a few years ago, worked fine
[11:46] <eroomde> 1 bit
[11:46] <eroomde> 8 samples per byte
[11:46] <qyx_> ok, thx, forgot to ask this last time
[11:46] <LeoBodnar> I got a book http://www.springer.com/birkhauser/engineering/book/978-0-8176-4390-4 that came with DVD with samples and MATLAB code
[11:46] <eroomde> np
[11:46] <eroomde> it has an IF too
[11:46] <eroomde> 3.something Mhz
[11:46] <eroomde> i forget exactly
[11:46] <eroomde> it'll all be in the logs
[11:46] <LeoBodnar> I am using samples so far, haven't looked at the code yet
[11:47] <eroomde> yes, i've seen that book
[11:47] <eroomde> it's good up to navigation
[11:47] <eroomde> then it devotes like 12% of the book to navigation which is not nearly enough
[11:47] <eroomde> you need the gps spec to make any sense
[11:47] <LeoBodnar> well NAV message chapter is 1.5 pages long haha
[11:47] <eroomde> ut it's good as far as getting a bitstream out
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[11:47] <eroomde> it's basically a lot like my talk, iirc
[11:48] <eroomde> in terms of emphasis
[11:48] <LeoBodnar> that's for bedtime reading - easier than on a laptop/ipad
[11:48] <eroomde> and it has an explanation of circular convolution
[11:48] <sa6bss> pava got an update :) nice setup at UY0LL
[11:48] <daveake> Ukraine ... popular destination this year
[11:48] <sa6bss> indeed !
[11:49] <Upu> and on it flies
[11:49] <daveake> higher too
[11:49] <Upu> yup
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[11:50] <YO9ICT> Upu, based on the batt reading, i give it 5+ hrs
[11:50] <Upu> that would be consistent with ground testing yest
[11:50] <Upu> probably less
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[11:51] <YO9ICT> We need a station in Volgograd :-)
[11:53] <sa6bss> where du you read the bat status?
[11:54] <sa6bss> sory, using http://habmap.philcrump.co.uk/
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[11:54] <sa6bss> spacenear displays it I can se
[11:54] <LeoBodnar> I can't put my finger on it but I feel there should be another way of searching for sats apart from phase shift correlation and FFT
[11:55] <Upu> sa6bss, Spacenear.us shows it
[11:55] <Upu> also http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/9f099e7e19c80d01d431ab5c52ffb721#g/altitude,batterymv,_speed
[11:55] <Upu> and craag's site above
[11:56] <LeoBodnar> There is too much pre-existing knowledge about the whole system that is not being used in the search algorithms
[11:56] <eroomde> you think?
[11:56] <eroomde> i'm not sure
[11:57] <LeoBodnar> It is just a feeling
[11:57] <eroomde> i mean, if you know where you are in space and time, you can reverse the whole problem to predict exactly where in the phase and doppler space each sattelite will be
[11:58] <eroomde> you can then look there, see where exactly it is relative to where you thought (should be within a chip or so) and use the estimate and the observation to combine together to get a new predicted position with is more accurate than either the estimate or the measurement on its own
[11:58] <eroomde> that's a kalman filter, and that's exactly how our (much higher performance than normal) one works
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[11:58] <LeoBodnar> E.g. if two sats are diametrically opposite then you don't worry about their cross-correlation so PRN sequence *may be* reduced
[11:59] <LeoBodnar> Also two satellites can't be in the same position at the same time at the same Doppler shift - algos don't have this information embedded
[12:00] <LeoBodnar> Just fantasising
[12:00] <eroomde> our one does do exactly this
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[12:00] <eroomde> it reduces the search sapce, so increases the snr
[12:00] <tweetBot> @daveake: Foil balloon $$PAVA TX 434.498Mhz USB THOR16made it from UK to Ukraine stiill going @AnthonyStirk http://t.co/1bqhemUKIp #UKHAS #HAB #hamr
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[12:00] <eroomde> it also has nice side effects like a result like being able to track sats with weaker snr and tolerate jamming and so on
[12:02] <eroomde> however, for this to work it first has to know position and time
[12:03] <eroomde> so we do a conventional aquitision and tracking to the first fix
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[12:04] <LeoBodnar> Is this called *something* observer method?
[12:04] <eroomde> it's quite similar to what's called 'observer' in control theory
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[12:04] <LeoBodnar> That's what I mean yes
[12:04] <eroomde> but in the literature it's usually called a Vector Kalman tracking
[12:04] <eroomde> kalman filters do make good observers though
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[12:05] <LeoBodnar> YOu can see this used in decoding resolver position in servo drives
[12:05] <eroomde> yes exactly
[12:05] <LeoBodnar> rather than just doing brute force calculation
[12:05] <LeoBodnar> every time
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[12:06] <eroomde> kt all boils down to these magical properties of gaussian distributions
[12:06] <eroomde> that if you multiply a gaussian with a gaussian, you get another gaussian
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[12:06] <LeoBodnar> yeah, beauty of randomness
[12:07] <LeoBodnar> *pure randomness
[12:07] <eroomde> whose mean is the weighted (by varienace) average of the two gaussians, and whose varience is the inverse sum (1/variance_1 + 1/varience_2) of the input gaussians
[12:07] <eroomde> which is always less
[12:07] <eroomde> so if you have an observation of something whose certainty you can model as a gaussian, and also a prediction of your state from knowing your previous state and knowing your dynamics, which you also model as a gaussian, you multiply those two gaussians together to fuse both estimates to get an even better one
[12:08] <eroomde> voila, kalman filter
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[12:08] <LeoBodnar> hehe
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[12:10] <eroomde> signal processing literature will net uo much better results than control theory literature on this one
[12:10] <bertrik> so you can combine a good estimate with a bad estimate and yet still get an even (slightly) better estimate as a result, right?
[12:10] <eroomde> yes
[12:10] <eroomde> they're both new information
[12:10] <eroomde> and more information is always good
[12:11] <eroomde> however it can be garbage in/garbage out
[12:11] <SP3OSJ> http://s24.postimg.org/44hqrkg79/image.jpg
[12:11] <eroomde> so it has to be reasonable to start with
[12:12] <eroomde> so ignore the legend
[12:12] <eroomde> https://raw.github.com/danielkorzekwa/bayes-scala/master/doc/localisation_example/dynamic_localisation_gaussian.png
[12:12] <eroomde> imagine red is an observation of your state, blue is your prediction of your state given the previous state
[12:12] <eroomde> purple is what you get when you multiply the two, which because your new estimate of your state that you use
[12:13] <eroomde> so far so good
[12:13] <eroomde> now imagine that red and blue each move 30cm to the right and left respectively
[12:13] <eroomde> i.e. they have very little in common
[12:13] <eroomde> you'll still get the purple gaussian confidently estimating your state
[12:14] <eroomde> but in relatiy your estimation and your observation would both totally disagree with each other
[12:14] <eroomde> which would normtlally tell you something is wrong with either your dynamical model or your measurement
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[12:14] <eroomde> but bayes rule is happy to just splarge them together
[12:14] <eroomde> so when people say bayes rule is 'only as good as your priors', that's what they mean
[12:18] <eroomde> 'prior' being your prior beleif that you use to help judge your observation, in the kalman filter case it's the predicted new state that you predicted from knowing the previous state
[12:19] <eroomde> i am monologuing
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[12:20] <cardre> eromode: I'm listening, carry on...
[12:20] <gonzo_> lecturing surely
[12:21] <eroomde> well i've sort of finished
[12:21] <eroomde> it's just a really beautiful thing, i think
[12:21] <gonzo_> no reason why we can't have a hab chan sunday surmon
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[12:22] <eroomde> that you can improve your knowledge or something by combining information about it
[12:22] <cardre> oh ok. I only came in on the end, but am interested in this stuff myself. Just got back from linux.conf.au and there was an interesting talk on doing DGPS using cheap GPS receivers to get a better position by feeding the known errors of the fixed position GPS to the moving one over a simple radio link.
[12:22] <eroomde> and that an estimate of it based on knowing something else about it is just as valid as a measurement of it
[12:22] <eroomde> cardre: cool
[12:22] <eroomde> well, i gave a talk at the ukhas conf
[12:23] <eroomde> it was a basic SDR gps receiver
[12:23] <eroomde> wrote it in pthon as i went along to illustrate some of the sdr concepts
[12:23] <eroomde> might or might not be interesting
[12:23] <eroomde> the video is online
[12:23] <cardre> is there a video/slides/notes?
[12:23] <eroomde> yes
[12:23] <cardre> URL please
[12:23] <eroomde> the video site doesn't allow direct linking annoyingly
[12:24] <eroomde> so batc.tv
[12:24] <eroomde> under categories dropdown, hab2013
[12:24] <eroomde> in the talks submenu in that cetagory, gps workshop (in 4 parts)
[12:24] Action: cardre is looking
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[12:24] <eroomde> first part is basic principles of sdr, I and Q, and so on
[12:24] <eroomde> then it goes into writing an actual receiver
[12:24] <cardre> are there associated notes/slides that can be downloaded?
[12:25] <eroomde> i've been really crap and lazy and not written them up neatly
[12:25] <gonzo_> you have to remembr to hit the select button o the catagories, to update the video's list
[12:25] <eroomde> *all* i have is the ipython notebook that i wrote as i went along
[12:25] <eroomde> which in can send you, but i'd watch the talk first so you see how it evolved a bit organically
[12:25] <eroomde> the talk was a bit of a rush
[12:26] <cardre> hmm, do I need to join batc.tv to watch this?
[12:26] <eroomde> nope
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[12:27] <cardre> ah ok, I think I've found it
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[12:28] <cardre> ok, downloading them now for later review.
[12:28] <number10> nice payload SP3OSJ
[12:29] <cardre> eroomode: The talk I went to see is outlined here -> http://linux.conf.au/schedule/30165/view_talk?day=wednesday
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[12:30] <SP3OSJ> batery AAA
[12:30] <eroomde> SP3OSJ: got a pic of the pcb?
[12:30] <cardre> There is a video already on the mirror site for it here -> http://mirror.linux.org.au/linux.conf.au/2014/Wednesday/45-Building_an_affordable_differential_GPS_positioning_system_-_Andrew_Tridgell,_Ben_Nizette.mp4
[12:32] <cardre> Andrew Tridgell is of samba/rsync fame, if you've ever mounted a windows file server on a linux box, you'll know who he is.
[12:32] <eroomde> the anme did ring a bell
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[12:33] <eroomde> i found samba not too horrendous to set up for the one guy at work who uses windows
[12:33] <eroomde> and does version control with filenames
[12:33] <eroomde> and does number processing with excel
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[12:35] <cardre> Looks like the following link will allow direct d/load of your video(s) -> http://www.batc.tv/vod/GPS%20part1.flv
[12:35] <cardre> I'm using that in VLC
[12:35] <eroomde> thanks
[12:37] <cardre> Looks like part 1 you're already into the talk, is there something beforehand that I missed?
[12:37] <SP3OSJ> pcb 0.5mm http://s21.postimg.org/qv9thh9qv/image.jpg
[12:38] <eroomde> cardre: probably not
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[12:44] <Upu> right thats 24 hours since PAVA was powered on
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[12:45] <eroomde> and it was good for about 28 in testing?
[12:45] <SP3OSJ> eroomde please write to me via email
[12:45] <eroomde> what should i say?
[12:45] <LeoBodnar> "... will present an attempt to build a free software DGPS system..."
[12:46] <LeoBodnar> should really say " will present an attempt to build a low cost software DGPS system "
[12:46] <Upu> jsut over 28 hours under open sky at about 6-8'C
[12:46] <Upu> however I suspect this has 2 hours left tops
[12:46] <eroomde> ok. fingers crossed
[12:46] <sa6bss> is weight the cause of not using an AA bat instead of a AAA?
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[12:46] <eroomde> lovely flight
[12:46] <Upu> very pleased with it :)
[12:47] <Upu> sa6bss quite a bit relatively
[12:47] <eroomde> good path over lots of trackers, and float behaved
[12:47] <Upu> and anyway with an AA it would transmit for days but to who ? :)
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[12:48] <eroomde> the ruskies
[12:48] <eroomde> sounds like there's a gap for a good hf mode
[12:48] <Upu> yep
[12:48] <Upu> need a solar one going round in circles for days
[12:48] <LeoBodnar> *weeks
[12:48] <Upu> yep :)
[12:49] <LeoBodnar> Summer is coming - get ready
[12:49] <LeoBodnar> It's only a week long in this country
[12:49] <eroomde> when you can DIY 2m-dia superpressures, it'll be a whole new world
[12:49] <Upu> yep
[12:49] <Upu> I think Leo is on with that :)
[12:49] <LeoBodnar> hehe indeed
[12:50] <eroomde> i have nothing to add on that front
[12:50] <eroomde> had a brief flirt with making balloons
[12:50] <eroomde> too much effort
[12:50] <sa6bss> well, got my 7 el yagi and lna ready, just waiting for a few connectors and it will be ready . https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26543754/9db%20ant%20%2Blna.JPG
[12:50] <LeoBodnar> it's easier to wait a few months than battle with -70C temperatures
[12:51] <eroomde> SP3OSJ: why do you want me to email you?
[12:51] <cardre> eroomode: Just caught up on the scroll-back... How does the deliberate time jitter affect your predictions? I believe (from my limited understanding) this was done to make exact location determination more difficult without knowing the pseudo random sequence.
[12:52] <sa6bss> summer the best day in all year as we say here :)
[12:52] <eroomde> cardre: that was turned off
[12:52] <Upu> :)
[12:52] <eroomde> years ago
[12:52] <SP3OSJ> eroomde:"SP3OSJ: got a pic of the pcb?"
[12:52] <LeoBodnar> cardre: BIll switched it off
[12:52] <eroomde> oh - you just linked me to an imgur one though
[12:53] <LeoBodnar> I think he wants you to buy one
[12:53] <eroomde> but i can do my own pcbs
[12:54] <cardre> oh ok :) I didn't realise that. Shows how far back I am and need to catch up. I'm just getting into this as I want to do 10-100Hz GPS. Got a 7Q now, but want faster and more accurate updates in the future. Hence the talk on DGPS was of interest to me
[12:54] <eroomde> ah
[12:54] <eroomde> well, my interest is in rockets, and so that's what got me into gps
[12:54] <eroomde> fast updates, high dynamics
[12:54] <eroomde> so we built one that will do 1000 fixes/sec
[12:55] <cardre> I see :) I have a TeleMetrum board for my model rocket
[12:55] <eroomde> i use an eroomde-special :)
[12:55] <cardre> OK, wow. That is quick. Is that a product, or just a development project?
[12:55] <eroomde> project
[12:55] <eroomde> might become a product
[12:55] <eroomde> but it is not a simple small thing
[12:56] <eroomde> in software it'd need a good i& pc104 board
[12:56] <cardre> I'd like to use > 10Hz in my car for track days (sorry about going offtopic here with HAB)
[12:56] <eroomde> i7*
[12:57] <eroomde> it does inertial fusion too - again useful for rockets
[12:57] <cardre> So has it been in a rocket, that type of h/w, or is that 'classified' :)
[12:57] <eroomde> i'm not a military contractor!
[12:57] <eroomde> none of it is classified
[12:58] <eroomde> some stuff has flown, although mostly logging raw rf samples for offline trajectry reconstruction
[12:58] <cardre> OK, next question, is it a public or private project, ie. something that I can look at?
[12:58] <eroomde> it's public but just not much online
[12:58] Action: cardre should probably wait and just watch the videos when they finish downloading
[12:58] <eroomde> the gps has nothing online, the rocket has some strapdown-test vids
[13:00] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkGlKYRISFM
[13:00] <cardre> hmm ok. Is there some site/twitter feed/whatever I can follow to get updates on your gps part of the project?
[13:00] <eroomde> heh, i have a twitter, i have used it maybe 3 times
[13:00] <eroomde> twitter.com/eoomde
[13:00] <eroomde> i'm just super bad at housekeeping
[13:00] <eroomde> i like the linear algebra
[13:00] <eroomde> the rest i never get round to
[13:01] <cardre> Cool! Direction rocket motor control. V nice!
[13:01] <eroomde> twitter.com/eroomde
[13:01] <eroomde> yeah, it's going to be one of the hovering jobs
[13:01] <eroomde> i will start to tweet more stuff this year probably
[13:01] <eroomde> there should be some fun hardware
[13:02] <cardre> So twitter feed will be best way to find out about the GPS stuff as you release more info?
[13:02] <eroomde> yes
[13:02] <eroomde> or hang around here
[13:02] <eroomde> this is a good chanel
[13:03] <cardre> I'm on here most of the time, but there's so much activity, I don't usually get through all the scroll back and end up missing lots of it. I'm also on the other side of the world (Down Under) so its not always good timing when I am 'in' the channel
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[13:04] <eroomde> darkside can be your funnel
[13:04] <cardre> I catch up with him occasionally at our local Hackerspace. He recommended I go for my Advanced HAM license which I'm happy to say I passed on Monday!
[13:05] <eroomde> congrats!
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[13:05] <cardre> Thanks. Once my license is issued, I get to play with 400W PEP!!
[13:05] <eroomde> you can cook food
[13:07] <cardre> OK, you have a new twitter follower. I look forward to being able to do 1kHz GPS updates at some point in the future ;)
[13:07] <eroomde> thanks :)
[13:08] <eroomde> it's a bit low priority atm as my job is more mechanical/thermodynamicsy at the moment
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[13:08] <eroomde> and it's going to be a buuuusy year
[13:08] <eroomde> but i'm hoping to fly a gps in the states
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[13:10] <Willdude123> That's a point. Would an amateur radio license allow to build a microwave for food
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[13:10] <cardre> Sounds like fun. If you do watch Tridge's video, you'll see the problems we have down under with the majority of our sats being north of us hence making accurate latitude fixes a problem.
[13:11] <eroomde> yeah, it gets harder as you go nearer the poles
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[13:30] <LeoBodnar> Is low elevation is usually associated with largest doppler?
[13:30] <LeoBodnar> -is
[13:32] <eroomde> yes i guess
[13:32] <eroomde> but it's more just a worse geometric distribution about the antenna
[13:32] <eroomde> of sats
[13:38] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: Check out NORB 2's internal payload design. #ukhas #AwesomeBox! :) http://t.co/Wx3xBwP8wm
[13:38] <gonzo_> Willdude123, you would not need a licence, as you are not radiating the power to space
[13:38] <gonzo_> in the same way that you don't really need a licence for a transciver, if you don't use it to tx with
[13:39] <LeoBodnar> At 16,368,000 sps sampling rate one chip length is 16 bits. Which makes it super easy for correlation search. Phase shift is a full word for 1 chip step or 1 byte for 1/2 chip
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[13:39] <gonzo_> (and commonly, people don't connect a mic to it, so that they don't show an intention to tx
[13:40] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: yes indeed
[13:40] <eroomde> that's what my front end runs at for that reason
[13:41] <LeoBodnar> In former USSR you had to get a licence to even start building a transmitter
[13:41] <LeoBodnar> "permission to built a radio station"
[13:42] <Willdude123> Hmm. Reverse engineering is hard.
[13:42] <eroomde> so yo0u could listen to the woodpecker
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[13:44] <LeoBodnar> I can't see how it could have been enforced. Technically almost any single transistor circuit was illegal even before being powered up.
[13:44] <LeoBodnar> without the permit
[13:44] <Willdude123> Where do I start with reverse engineering a whole radio programming protocol?
[13:45] <Willdude123> I've got the serial being monitored
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> Disassemble the radio micro or PC software
[13:46] <sa6bss> UY0LL station reciving pava, nice antenna :) http://www.qrz.com/db/UY0LL
[13:46] <LeoBodnar> Most probably it has been already done Willdude123
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[13:49] <mfa298> Willdude123: generally make one small change at a time and see what changes in the protocol. However it can be days/ weeks to work it all out (and potentially if you get things wrong you could cause other issues).
[13:49] <mfa298> if this is just still for trying to programme memories on your radio it might be quicker to just do it manaually.
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[13:50] <Willdude123> mfa298: I can do it via the software fine, it's just I want do be able to automate the process and grab lists of ukrepeater.net and things
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[13:51] <Upu> I'd say PAVA has about 30 mins left
[13:51] <Upu> if that
[13:51] <mfa298> It might just be quicker to do it manually, chances are there aren't many repeaters to add
[13:52] <Willdude123> Yeah
[13:52] <Willdude123> Well, I'd want the whole of the south east which is probably at least 200
[13:53] <mfa298> just add them as you need them, I doubt it's that many to add.
[13:54] <mfa298> and they don't change that often
[13:55] <Willdude123> Hmm
[13:55] <mfa298> I'd probably listen to the frequencies first to see if you can actually hear them.
[13:56] <Willdude123> It's more for when I go /m to be honest
[13:56] <Willdude123> I might have a crack at it
[13:56] <mfa298> in that case look up the repeaters for where you're traveling when you go. That way you'll also remember which ones are likely to be useful for a location
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[13:57] <Willdude123> http://imgur.com/hPMGR6a one ugly interface
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[13:57] <mfa298> otherwise you'll be somewhere but not know which of the 200 memories to try.
[14:02] <Willdude123> Good point
[14:03] <Upu> Right I'm calling PAVA dead, thanks to everyone who tracked much appreciated
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[14:05] <YO9ICT> Upu Are you sure? based on last batt reading I would give it another half an hour
[14:05] <Upu> nah
[14:05] <Upu> once it hits that
[14:05] <Upu> and with sunset on it
[14:05] <Upu> 10 mins
[14:05] <Upu> tops
[14:06] <YO9ICT> Ok, so RIP PAVA, it was a good one ! Congrats !
[14:07] <G8KNN> Impressive flight Upu!
[14:08] <kimwo> Well done. Did wonders for my geography.
[14:08] <Upu> cheers all :)
[14:12] <fsphil> oh wow, look where it is
[14:12] <daveake> oh updated
[14:12] <daveake> 1V batt
[14:12] <fsphil> Ukraine and Romania doing some great tracking there
[14:13] <Upu> oh called it too soon
[14:13] <Upu> haha on top of that station awesome
[14:13] <fsphil> ah, battery cliff?
[14:13] <Upu> lets watch it die :)
[14:13] <fsphil> I don't think there can be any doubt, this was a successful test :)
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[14:16] <sa6bss> You should have put an AA in instead ;)
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[14:21] <YO9ICT> sa6bss Why? No tracking stations...I bet UR6ISU is the last...even if Upu has launched it with 1xAA
[14:21] <sa6bss> yep, just being funny :)
[14:22] <sa6bss> sems there ´s ben some flight died while stil in tracker area
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[14:23] <uu4jlm_Valery> Ublox NEO6MV2 GPS Module Aircraft Flight Controller For Arduino, this module is suitable for Balloon?
[14:23] <Upu> Pretty sure this will at least float through the night
[14:24] <Upu> DX.com
[14:24] <Upu> yes but they use more power and are heavier than the MAX7's
[14:24] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=52
[14:26] <uu4jlm_Valery> ok
[14:28] <Upu> not that I'm wishing it but that has to die soon
[14:28] <sa6bss> I can see temps doen yo-50 -60 and lower, whats the temperature usuly at this hight 8000m in the summer month?
[14:28] <YO9ICT> 0.982 V
[14:28] <LeoBodnar> -30C ish
[14:29] <sa6bss> ok
[14:29] <LeoBodnar> great flight Upu
[14:30] <Upu> battery is a rolling aveage over the last 5 readings
[14:30] <Upu> cheers Leo
[14:30] <Upu> 26 hours
[14:30] <Upu> thats not bad at all considering
[14:33] <Upu> still updating
[14:33] <Upu> lol
[14:33] <YO9ICT> UR6ISU is listening with a 144 mhz j-pole
[14:34] <Upu> oh wow
[14:34] <Upu> not ideal
[14:35] <YO9ICT> Having UR6ISU is the merit of UT5JCW, he posted on the Ukraine VHF forums
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[14:36] <YO9ICT> Seems I was true with that half an hour estimate :-)
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[14:36] <Upu> I take it back
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[14:36] <Upu> I was expecting it to fail much quicker
[14:36] <Upu> oh hai jcoxon :)
[14:36] <jcoxon> hey Upu
[14:36] <jcoxon> ooo we are still going?
[14:37] <Upu> we are just witnessing the slow death of a midair payload
[14:37] <jcoxon> oh yes
[14:37] <jcoxon> the dreaded cliff
[14:38] <Upu> hanging in there but can't have long left
[14:38] <Upu> might just make it into Russia whilst transmitting
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[14:39] <jcoxon> excellent flight all the same
[14:39] <jcoxon> also we are getting more and more ukrainian listeners
[14:39] <Upu> yup test box has a tick next to it
[14:39] <Upu> and welcome to Russia
[14:40] <Upu> bang on 26 hours since power one
[14:40] <Upu> on
[14:41] <jcoxon> sp3osj looks like its descending slowly
[14:42] <mclane> if I compile dl-fldigi in linux according to the wiki, I get a version which does not seem to be up to date
[14:42] <cuddykid> Upu: is this off 1AA?
[14:42] <Upu> AAA
[14:43] <cuddykid> madness
[14:43] <cuddykid> wow
[14:43] <jcoxon> mclane, which page exactly were you looking at
[14:43] <mclane> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:dl-fldigi:build-ubuntu
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[14:44] <jcoxon> mclane, its using my github which is the latest
[14:44] <jcoxon> that said we are finding issues with the latest dl-fldigi (as in on github) as the rtty decoder has poorer performance
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[14:45] <jcoxon> which is annoying
[14:45] <craag> batterymv added to habmap. Just in time to see it drop!
[14:45] <mclane> I also have a binary installation out of the ubuntu debs
[14:45] <mclane> this one does not complain "newer version available"
[14:46] <yo9hzn> Can't wait Batterymv 777
[14:46] <jcoxon> oh don't worry about that
[14:46] <jcoxon> its because we haven't updated the github part
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[14:48] <adamgreig> mclane: it really means you have a different version to the current stable release - in your case a newer version
[14:49] <Laurenceb_> 26hours, nice
[14:49] <Upu> err shuold be dead now
[14:50] <uy0ll> PAVA still alive! atterymv: 853mV - is it possible?
[14:51] <sa6bss> craag: just reloaded habmap and there it was - battery stat tnx!
[14:51] <craag> sa6bss: If you click it you'll get a graph too! Just trying to work out why it doesn't show as a link..
[14:51] <Upu> no should be dead now lol
[14:52] <craag> Next jump out of gps powersave wil kill it I reckon
[14:53] <Upu> yep
[14:53] <YO9ICT> Had any glitches with power save during the flight?
[14:53] <Upu> yeah
[14:54] <Upu> not seen it drop out of power save mode though
[14:54] <Upu> 835mV is lowest I've seen and it still work
[14:55] <YO9ICT> 818
[14:55] <craag> 813..
[14:55] <Upu> thanks btw uy0ll
[14:56] <DL1SGP> Upu, congrats... lovely float
[14:56] <Upu> cheers DL1SGP
[14:56] <craag> What's the step-up rated down to?
[14:56] <mclane> very cool flight indeed!
[14:56] <uy0ll> Hope to receive last message from PAVA. I received last message from SP9UOP when battery was 1.61V (distance 755:<).
[14:57] <Upu> not sure craag
[14:57] <Upu> 0.7 ?
[14:57] <jcoxon> uy0ll, the winds seem to push these long flights towards you
[14:57] <craag> Is this one of your new set of boards?
[14:58] <Upu> VIN Start-Up Voltage: 850mV
[14:58] <Upu> yes
[14:58] <Upu> its below its start up voltage
[14:58] <YO9ICT> What regulator is that?
[14:58] <Upu> http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/3526bfd.pdf
[14:59] <Upu> i suspect a certain level of inaccuracy in the ADC
[14:59] <gurgalof> Upu: it's amazing your tracker is still alive
[14:59] <yo9hzn> 777
[14:59] <Upu> lol
[15:00] <yo9hzn> nice fly
[15:00] <Upu> right I have to go out
[15:00] <Upu> thanks everyone for tracking
[15:00] <Upu> much appreciated
[15:01] <Upu> yes craag
[15:01] <Upu> in answer to your question
[15:01] <Upu> ok afk
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[15:02] <uy0ll> PAVA is died! No modulted tone
[15:02] <craag> 776mV last?
[15:02] <uy0ll> Upu, I'll glad to observe any your flight, it seems my location is the last chance for most longdistance ballon
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[15:04] <uy0ll> Last copied 766mV, after something happened with software - I saw wrong sync on the waterfall
[15:05] <craag> So it died slowly, impressive.
[15:05] <jcoxon> good work Upu
[15:06] <craag> Sounds like you have quite a station there uy0ll !
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[15:08] <uy0ll> Frequency driffted up.
[15:09] <nats`> someone can tell me the name of a mechanical tool
[15:09] <uy0ll> Last 3 screenshots: software fail http://vhfdx.at.ua/_fr/4/0616338.png
[15:09] <nats`> in French it's a taraud it's used to do hole for a specific type of screw
[15:09] <uy0ll> Unmodulated http://vhfdx.at.ua/_fr/4/4857215.png
[15:09] <craag> so died around 766mv
[15:10] <uy0ll> Freq drift http://vhfdx.at.ua/_fr/4/9940389.png
[15:10] <craag> Still reporting 8 sats, looks like mcu/radio died before gps!
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[15:17] <ibanezmatt13__> Does anybody know of a glue like Uhu Por that sticks foam together well enough for HAB? Looking for something we can get from a DIY place rather than Ebay if possible
[15:17] Nick change: Guest85722 -> nigelvh
[15:17] <mclane> I am using hotmelt glue
[15:18] <ibanezmatt13__> Mm, last time I tried that it melted :P
[15:18] <mclane> depends on the styrofoam
[15:19] <mclane> I use something called styrodur
[15:19] <ibanezmatt13__> It's pretty decent. 25mm thick blue styrofoam from Hindley's. Same as used by Stratodean
[15:19] <mclane> (it's a little bit heavier then the white stuff)
[15:20] <ibanezmatt13__> right. I have plenty plastic cement, but thought it either wouldn't do the trick or it'd do something bad
[15:20] <YO9ICT> Upu, how do compare the THOR16 performance vs classic RTTY ?
[15:20] <mclane> for me it melts just on the surface
[15:20] <mclane> a little bit
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[15:26] <mattbrejza> ibanezmatt13__: you can get different temperature glue gun glues
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[15:27] <ibanezmatt13__> Yeah, I guess. I was trying to avoid it if I could. Would Uhu Por glue do the trick without destroying the foam?
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[15:28] <mattbrejza> so do you have several stacked layers you want to join?
[15:29] <ibanezmatt13__> Really, I just need to glue the four side walls of my box to the base piece. That's all I need it for
[15:29] <ibanezmatt13__> I just don't want it to deform the foam so it doesn't fit as accurately as it should
[15:29] <daveake> hot melt but don't let it get too hot
[15:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Just a thought would it not be possible to use Dovetail joints then you can get away without using glues ?
[15:30] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13__: if you've got some off cuts of the foam you can always try out the glues you've got on them to see if there are any problems.
[15:30] <ibanezmatt13__> Probably Geoff-G8DHE-M, I'm not the best designer to be honest :) daveake it's probably worth a try. I've had bad experience but it may be ok if I have it on low
[15:31] <ibanezmatt13__> yes mfa298, I do. Good point. I'll try the hot glue on some scrap later
[15:31] <mattbrejza> ive found normal tempearutre hot glue is fine on polystrene providing its not too hot
[15:31] <mattbrejza> so the blue stuff is probably the same
[15:31] <daveake> If the gun has heat settings use the lower one. Or use soon after it melts. Just don't leave it on for 15 mins then use it
[15:32] <ibanezmatt13__> Yes daveake, I think last time I was doing it and my Granddad said it was taking too long to warm up and put it on Hi :P
[15:32] <ibanezmatt13__> I will be in control this time :)
[15:32] <mattbrejza> making the box fit together with tabs helps too as youre not just relying on the glue to hold it
[15:32] <daveake> before or after he coverd the camera lens? :/
[15:33] <ibanezmatt13__> Ah that was my Dad who did that, that was silicone! :)
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[15:33] <daveake> I see you blame everyone but yourself :p
[15:33] <daveake> good start
[15:33] <daveake> :)
[15:33] <ibanezmatt13__> Unfortunately it's true! This time it's the first time I've been allowed to handle tools myself
[15:33] <ibanezmatt13__> lol
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[15:34] <daveake> Allegedly PVA glue works however it needs air on it to dry, so won't work for large sheets, and will need time to dry
[15:35] <ibanezmatt13__> Ah ok. So hot glue sticks are different? They will allow me to apply the hot glue, and push the pieces together pretty much straight away to set?
[15:35] <mfa298> blaming other people is probably better than blaming the tools. Probably also good practice for managment.
[15:35] <daveake> yes
[15:36] <daveake> the hot glue takes a while to cool down (insulation you see)
[15:37] <ibanezmatt13__> right, I'll test it later. Might be that I apply the glue, let it cool slightly, then push together
[15:37] <ibanezmatt13__> very true mfa298. NORB 2 is a project created and organised only by me :/ I bet my Dad £20 that I could start and finish a project completely myself, including organise times with Steve and stuff like that. So long as he's there to drive it's all good :)
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[15:38] <ibanezmatt13__> Only issue is, his new Volvo electric plug in caught fire on the drive yesterday and he had to drive it away from the house as it smouldered. Now he's got a crappy hire car. Let's hope we're not in that for the launch :)
[15:38] <adamgreig> haha what!
[15:39] <ibanezmatt13__> honestly, he's not impressed :P
[15:39] <adamgreig> you don't say
[15:39] <adamgreig> uhm, that's kinda bad though?
[15:39] <adamgreig> any idea why?
[15:39] <ibanezmatt13__> I think he said something about a generator under the engine which is used to charge the notorious Li-Ion batteries... :/
[15:39] <adamgreig> pretty sure it shouldn't be catching fire
[15:40] <ibanezmatt13__> May be a faulty part. The smell of melting plastic was awful
[15:40] <daveake> it'll be in the small print
[15:40] <adamgreig> like a single tesla electric car caught fire and it was major, major news
[15:40] <ibanezmatt13__> lol daveake. Same problem with the 787's
[15:41] <ibanezmatt13__> He's one of five "elite" people in the country to have one. Company car thankfully
[15:41] <daveake> s/elite/guinea pigs/
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[15:42] <ibanezmatt13__> well not strictly true. They have hundreds of them working fine in Sweden, only 5 here. He suspects also it may be an issue after making it right hand drive
[15:42] <ibanezmatt13__> Some sort of short circuit
[15:43] <ibanezmatt13__> Chocolates are calling me, bbl
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[15:44] <daveake> They didn't just wispa
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[15:55] <jeffewil> HI, I am starting the build of a camera balloon using a raspberry PI. Can anyone tell me why I should programme in C rather than Python. Both are pretty rusty so will need to be relearnt, so I figure python will be easier...
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> no reason
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> The pi is however very energy hungry - at least for the model B, with USB on.
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> Even the model A still wants 170mA or so @5V idle
[15:57] <daveake> 115mA
[15:57] <jeffewil> Will be using a Mod A for the flight - developing on the B though
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> But literally all the programming you need is basically one or two lines of code, to read from the GPS, and send that string out the transmitter.
[15:57] <jeffewil> for that reason.
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[15:58] <daveake> C or Python will work - up to what you're more familiar with really
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> I dare say you could probably use bash script without any issues.
[15:58] <fsphil> some have used C, some python. both work well
[15:58] <fsphil> same rules for both -- lots of testing, lots of error checking
[15:58] <Babs_> Hey guys - i just posted a query about a spot tracker board - but I don't think it got through. did it come up on here?
[15:59] <fsphil> on the mailing list? haven't seen anything
[15:59] <jeffewil> good to know... Dave I was reading your blog... have you written anything more explaining why to use the UART forr the output to the radio not the GPIO
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[15:59] <Babs_> thanks fsphil
[15:59] <Babs_> so I broke open my Spot tracker - I'm keen on suspending it so it is always pointing up, in theory meaning (famous last words) it should be difficult to lose its location whether it lands in a valley, tree or whatever
[15:59] <Babs_> anyhow, here is it broken out part way through http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/11908744484/in/photostream/
[16:00] <Babs_> and the board http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/11908748214/in/photostream/
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> Are you doing more to it than ripping its clothes off?
[16:00] <Babs_> and on the other side http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/11908304885/in/photostream/
[16:00] <Babs_> hang on a sec SpeedEvil
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> - the MITM GPS thingy.
[16:00] <Babs_> and the back side of the plastic buttons that sit on the outside of the casing http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/11908304885/in/photostream/
[16:00] <daveake> jeffewil If you use GPIO then the timing will likely go to shite as soon as the CPU has something else meaningful to do
[16:01] <fsphil> oh that's right, there was a hack to encode altitude in the gps coordinates for the spot
[16:01] <Babs_> the buttons aren't microswitched as you can see, they are just copper contacts that need to be connected to activate the switch (or so I assume)
[16:01] <Babs_> but the backs to the buttons look to be rubber, so how do they work?
[16:01] <daveake> conductive rubber
[16:02] <jeffewil> Thanks daveake, SpeedExil
[16:02] <Babs_> daveake - can you buy that?
[16:02] <jeffewil> and fsphil
[16:02] <Babs_> ahh, I see you can. so that answers that one
[16:03] <Babs_> thanks daveake
[16:03] <daveake> yes :)
[16:03] <fsphil> ah, pava has finally stopped. and it looked to be floating again too
[16:03] <Babs_> second query. I'm keen on using just the bare board, and I need to get power to the battery contact points on this view http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/11908748214/in/photostream/ which are mid to top left, and bottom right
[16:04] <Babs_> but I'd like to avoid soldering to it because I need to put it back in the case for skiing etc.
[16:04] <Babs_> is there an easy workaround other than soldering, then desoldering wires to it every time I need to put it back into the case?
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> Babs_: the easy way to do interfacing to stuff without really thinking about it: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/AQY280SX/255-3913-1-ND/3885638
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> Babs_: make a little connector
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> Babs_: for example - take fine enamelled wires - and run them out to a strip of 0.1" header.
[16:07] <Babs_> SpeedEvil - at the moment when the back of the tracker goes back on it two spring contacts from the battery pack contact the two copper discs and make the connection, so I can't have much sticking up from the back of the contacts on the board
[16:07] <Babs_> are you basically saying solder a small wire on each coming out sideways to a connector, and then connecting the reconnecting as and when needed?
[16:08] <Babs_> I think that might work
[16:09] <SpeedEvil> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CPC1017NTR/CLA233CT-ND/1212844 - actually - that's lots cheaper
[16:09] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:09] <SpeedEvil> how many of the buttons do you need to control?
[16:10] <Babs_> like this (I did it with paper strips but the physical orientation holds) http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/11908904255/
[16:11] <Babs_> operating the buttons is easy I think. the batteries last 7 days so all i need to do is put a flylead across the two contacts the night before I am ready to go and it will all activate in plenty of time
[16:11] <Babs_> As for your first query, you can hack these things to send out other stuff besides just the position data
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[16:13] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I'd bring power and buttons out to a common 8 pin*0.1" or so connector.
[16:15] <eroomde> if you want a permenant mod, i'd make it a better connector
[16:15] <eroomde> ip67 or something, if the rest of the unit is
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes - if it was to be used outside the case.
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> I gather the point is to remove the case for weight reduction in flight.
[16:16] <eroomde> oh right sorry
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> but still be able to use it 'vanilla' for other purposes
[16:16] <eroomde> didn;t read scrollback well enough
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[16:20] <Babs_> correct SpeedEvil - make it lighter but also make it smaller
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> Babs_: Sigh. You know what you need to do. Reverse engineer the protocol, and come up with a from-scratch transmitter.
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:21] <Babs_> I've got 30 mins before dinner, I'll get onto it
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[16:21] <SpeedEvil> Would be a fun project.
[16:23] <Babs_> this guy did it https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/340
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[16:35] <Broliv> evening all
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[16:51] <aadamson> Anyone on here have some experience with the sixxxx flavor of rf chips? I'm trying to track down an issue and am looking for someone to bounce some ideas off :)
[16:53] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar or Upu are the best people to talk to
[16:53] <mikestir> I have some experience particularly with the si4431 and 4432 if you want to try me
[16:53] <Laurenceb_> me too
[16:55] <mikestir> and I'm about to start a design with the si4060 so I've fairly familiar with that
[16:58] <aadamson> ok, so here goes...
[16:58] <aadamson> it's a 4463 being used only as a TX (RX circuit is there, but not stuffed). im trying to get afsk to work via pwm from a micro and a vcxo.
[16:59] <aadamson> board is here... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/DSCN2418.JPG
[16:59] <aadamson> nothing magic on the arduino code right now, just 31.2khz pwm and bell 1200/2200 tones
[16:59] <aadamson> that all works just fine.
[16:59] <aadamson> the output from the PWM to the input to the vcxo is via a passband filter with just r/c's
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[17:00] <aadamson> it's also got a 10k/10k voltage divider to drop the 3v3 pwm down to 3v3/2 for the vcxo
[17:00] <aadamson> BUT and here's what I can for the life of me figure out...
[17:00] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/si4463sdr.jpg
[17:00] <aadamson> that's what the output looks like *on air* via a funcube pro+
[17:01] <aadamson> and it looks similar on my hp8920a
[17:01] <aadamson> and what do you know, those images are 31.2khz away on both sides...
[17:01] <aadamson> I've tried about everything. Checked the pwm filter its good, ac coupled the pwm that made no difference
[17:02] <aadamson> it's that way out of the si chip before the matching and lpf
[17:02] <aadamson> no loss or mismatch there, for 20db output I get 110mW output power, right where it should be
[17:03] <aadamson> so at this point, I'm dragging out the scope to check that the pwm isn't distorted (doesn't sound like it is and it decodes just fine over the air)
[17:03] <aadamson> it's either a) it is what is it; b) something to do with the pwm generation; or.... and this one I don't understand
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[17:04] <aadamson> the VCXO is supposed to be connected to the xin pin, but if I do that I get nothing, if I connect it to the xout pin it works...
[17:04] <aadamson> so it may be something to do with the vcxo (althought the output looks fine)
[17:04] <aadamson> so there, more than you wanted to know... :)
[17:04] <aadamson> any thoughts appreiciated
[17:05] <aadamson> oh and if interested...
[17:05] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/STM-SIradio.pdf
[17:05] <aadamson> needs some clean up, but there's the schematic
[17:06] <aadamson> everything works, I'm just trying to clean up the RF side if possible...
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[17:11] <mikestir> I'm just sorting out my kid's tea so I only skim read that, but it looks like you've got too much residual 31 kHz content from the pwm
[17:12] <mikestir> have you determined the VCO sensitivity so you know what deviation you're expecting?
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[17:14] <aadamson> mikestir, not completely, I know that where I started on pwm levels was *too low* around 1.2khz of deviation and that full PWM is 17khz... that's one of my things to look at today with the scope, and to make sure that the pwm filter isn't doing something it's not supposed to be :)
[17:14] <eroomde> aadamson: dropbox is back up at last. re: monolithic motor drivers, this was the board i soldered up last week
[17:14] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0bs65qbdual1m47/motordriver.jpg
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[17:14] <eroomde> it's just 4 half bridges, really
[17:15] <aadamson> nice board... don't you love St processors :)... oh and clean up those solder bridges :)
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[17:15] <eroomde> they are clean now!
[17:15] <eroomde> yes the st's are nice
[17:16] <mikestir> aadamson: maybe check it with a 1200/2400 Hz sine tone from a sig gen first
[17:16] <aadamson> I do need to look into a driver scheme, but it's not high on my priority list at the moment on the gimbal controller
[17:16] <aadamson> mikestir, yes I can do that... good idea
[17:16] <eroomde> what are you gimbaling?
[17:17] <aadamson> mostly cameras
[17:17] <eroomde> on aircraft?
[17:17] <aadamson> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1978860 - i got involved with this and when the original designer disappeared, I picked it up and fixed a bunch of things on it...
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[17:18] <aadamson> on anything actually, they are being used handheld, or via flight vehicles.
[17:18] <chrisstubbs> I have one of your boards on my hex :)
[17:18] <aadamson> hehe
[17:19] <eroomde> cool
[17:19] <aadamson> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViWrvf47Ouk was a new 3 axis stabilized gopro sized gimbal that I brought the board up on for the first time..
[17:19] <eroomde> i'd really like to do a balloon-lofted telescope one day, for a night flight
[17:19] <eroomde> get some good shots of the orion nebular or somerhing
[17:19] <eroomde> bt the stabilisation would have to be a whole new level of good
[17:20] <eroomde> offputtingly complicated atm
[17:20] <aadamson> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsEagm_luGo - a Nex sized version with same controller
[17:20] <eroomde> so what are the brushless motors of choice atm?
[17:20] <eroomde> is there was chinese outfit that gratifyingly sells rewound things for cheap?
[17:21] <eroomde> is there some*
[17:21] <aadamson> the biggest issue with gimbals is *balance*, using a BDLC, the have to be *perfect* because you are making a spinning motor be a stepper and they have movement torque but lots of holding torque
[17:21] <aadamson> oh, yes, there are lots of gimbal motors on the cheap... 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, and now 8000 series motors
[17:21] <aadamson> little to huge basically
[17:22] <aadamson> btw, those are all stm processors ;)
[17:22] <eroomde> could you possibly link me to something suitabe for slinging a compact camera like in that vid?
[17:22] <aadamson> F103 and I did an F405 version too, as it was drop in with 2 parts change
[17:22] <eroomde> i'm using 407s for dataloggers for work
[17:22] <eroomde> very impressed
[17:22] <aadamson> go check rctimer.com and their gimbal motors or ipower I think has some too
[17:23] <aadamson> mikestir, thanks for the comments, if you think of anything else you might look at let me know... it has to be something stupid, it's too simple of a design to be otherwise :)...
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[17:24] <aadamson> just to make sure it wasn't board related I build a second one... same exact output
[17:24] <aadamson> used a second arduino too, so it's something, I just can't put my finger on it yet
[17:24] <eroomde> wow that's cheap
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[17:25] <mikestir> your modulation is going to be well inside the loop bandwidth of the synth, so the radio should probably not notice the modulation
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[17:25] <mikestir> so I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work
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[17:25] <mikestir> I bet you've currently got the same spread on the output of the VCXO itself
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> I have wondered about a rather stupid way to get rid of the massive cogging for brushless motors
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> Use two on each axis, offset half a step.
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[17:30] <aadamson> mikestir, that's one of the things I'm going to re-look at.
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[17:32] <LeoBodnar> aadamson: what is you FM deviation?
[17:33] <LeoBodnar> how does the VCXO signal look on the scope?
[17:33] <LeoBodnar> how does the RF look at constant PWM output?
[17:34] <aadamson> right now it's 3.5khz and the VXCO output looks like it should *I think, I don't have lots o experience here)
[17:34] <aadamson> the VXCO output is a peak at 27mhz (it's a 27mhz vxco)
[17:34] <aadamson> and then 2 side peaks down about 40db on both sides
[17:34] <LeoBodnar> even with constant PWM output?
[17:35] <aadamson> So here's what I need to recheck.. let me do it really quick... I think it looks like that even when there is no PWM input to the vxco
[17:35] <aadamson> I can pull the pwm line off the vcxo... let me check that again
[17:35] <LeoBodnar> I am not sure what PLL lock loop bandwidth is in Si446x
[17:36] <aadamson> ah, I can't test that at the moment... :(
[17:36] <aadamson> so I'll put that verification back on the test list
[17:36] <LeoBodnar> Modulating reference frequency only works if PLL bandwidth is wide
[17:37] <aadamson> ok, pondering that statement...
[17:37] <LeoBodnar> Otherwise PLL can lose lock but we are probably few orders of magnitude below the critical limit at audio freqeuncies
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[17:38] <aadamson> I believe so, this basic design is used in another application, he uses a 5x7 vcxo and I used a 5x3, but they are the same spec... 50pmm, 27mhz 15pf vxco's
[17:38] <LeoBodnar> Si446x uses direct PLL modulation for its own modulation and it can do very high baudrates so you are most definitely safe there
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[17:39] <aadamson> oh, and I'm using CW mode on the si for reference
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[17:39] <LeoBodnar> I am just theorising
[17:39] <aadamson> ah, good stuff!!! thanks, that's what I need
[17:39] <aadamson> I can't figure out why I can't put the vxco on the xin pin tho... and wonder if thats related
[17:40] <aadamson> when I do that the si won't transmit, but on xout it works fine...
[17:40] <tweetBot> @stratodean: The Making of Santa Sleigh Test and update for 2014. #santasleightest #makingof #ukhas #2014 #plans
[17:40] <aadamson> bizarry
[17:40] <aadamson> bizarre
[17:40] <LeoBodnar> But internal modulation might use feedforward
[17:40] <LeoBodnar> to speed up PLL loop
[17:40] <tweetBot> @stratodean: The Making of Santa Sleigh Test and update for 2014. #santasleightest #makingof #ukhas #2014 #plans
[17:40] <tweetBot> http://t.co/tKvdg6cUb9
[17:41] <LeoBodnar> Are you AC decoupling VCXO output?
[17:42] <aadamson> yes 100pf cap between vxco output and si input
[17:42] <aadamson> pwm input is also ac coupled with a .1uf cap
[17:42] <aadamson> I added that last night just to be sure
[17:43] <aadamson> pwm is band pass filtered and I took the hpf off for now so it's lpf with a 4k cutoff *at the moment*
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[17:44] <LeoBodnar> I use XIN and it works fine however lots of people are having problems with it
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[17:44] <LeoBodnar> We have been discussing this here
[17:44] <aadamson> yeah, I know and I saw that upu is as well.
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[17:44] <aadamson> I treat the vxco like a txco and set the internal capacitance to 0
[17:44] <LeoBodnar> me too
[17:45] <aadamson> have you guys seen the reference to a *poke xosc_cf 0a* in the datasheets?
[17:45] <aadamson> I have no clue what the xosc_cfg is or where to put that 0x0a...
[17:45] <LeoBodnar> I have even changed to XOUT on one of the Revisions but then manned up and changed back
[17:45] <aadamson> http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/AN785.pdf
[17:46] <aadamson> section 6
[17:46] <LeoBodnar> where's that
[17:46] <aadamson> yeah, I'd like to understand why it won't work on XIN
[17:46] <aadamson> I just liked you to the reference to the POKE...
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[17:46] <LeoBodnar> it's a very secret command
[17:47] <aadamson> I even sent Si an email asking about that, but no response and no clue, there are *zero* references to it on the web either
[17:47] <LeoBodnar> I am surprised it is mentioned in public dcs
[17:47] <aadamson> you know about it?
[17:47] <LeoBodnar> *docs
[17:47] <aadamson> so is it something I need to do?
[17:47] <LeoBodnar> don't mess with POKEs and you'll be OK :D
[17:48] <aadamson> it's *c* so i can't anyway (as a poke anyway) :)
[17:49] <aadamson> other than turning off the internal capacitance with the global_xo_tune api, I still can't make it osc on xin... very strange
[17:50] <aadamson> and the power up is set for the 27mhz vxco
[17:50] <aadamson> (maybe I need to verify that against the WDS software and how it would build the string to send... Id like to try to get on Xin just to rule that out
[17:50] <aadamson> )
[17:50] <LeoBodnar> If you configure TCXO in POWER_UP command you should be OK
[17:51] <aadamson> seems I can and it responds with cts
[17:51] <LeoBodnar> this POKE will change the NVM setting that is loaded by the chip on cold-start before POWER_UP is issued
[17:52] <aadamson> ah ok...
[17:52] <eroomde> i'm watching an extremely strange film that has in it both keith allen and ted danson
[17:52] <aadamson> but I wouldn't know how to do that anyway, it would require some form of api to issue the internal *poke* command that value is internal to the chip not external or api available
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[17:53] <LeoBodnar> YOu shouldn't be able to use POKE command
[17:53] <aadamson> good, cuz I can't :)
[17:53] <LeoBodnar> If you can - welcome to the secret society :D
[17:54] <aadamson> nope, and I dont think I want to be part of that just yet... lol
[17:54] <LeoBodnar> XIN works out of the box for me, I am confused as to why people are having the problems
[17:54] <LeoBodnar> I can't help because I can't replicate the problem
[17:54] <aadamson> hehe... nice problem to have :)
[17:54] <LeoBodnar> I use 100pF AC decoupling and that's it
[17:55] <LeoBodnar> what's you drive level?
[17:55] <LeoBodnar> Si446x don't like very strong drive
[17:55] <aadamson> vcxo to si is 3v3/2
[17:55] <aadamson> 1.62x
[17:55] <LeoBodnar> hmm, a bit hot
[17:56] <aadamson> actually hang on... let me check something
[17:56] <aadamson> that's not right... that's the input to the vxco, I'll ahve to check the output.
[17:56] <aadamson> you're talking about the no more that 1.8v peak and 600mw to 1.4 nominla
[17:56] <aadamson> ?
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[17:57] <LeoBodnar> "The incoming clock signal is recommended to have a peak-to-peak swing in the range of 600 mV to 1.4 V and ac-coupled to the XIN pin with a series capacitor."
[17:57] <aadamson> yeah
[17:57] <aadamson> I'll have to check that
[17:58] <LeoBodnar> And they use 100pF as well
[17:58] <LeoBodnar> and XIN hmm
[17:58] <eroomde> the IQ modulator i'm doing a design with wants balanced inputs with exactly the same swing
[17:58] <eroomde> and dc bias
[17:58] <LeoBodnar> My Vpp is about 0.8v
[17:59] <aadamson> ok... the data sheet says that you ac couple if 600mV to 1.4V *OR* you DC couple if more that 1.4
[17:59] <aadamson> where did I see that
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[17:59] <aadamson> A TCXO or external signal source can easily be used in place of a conventional XTAL and should be connected to
[17:59] <aadamson> the XIN pin. The incoming clock signal is recommended to have a peak-to-peak swing in the range of 600 mV to
[17:59] <aadamson> 1.4 V and ac-coupled to the XIN pin. If the peak-to-peak swing of the TCXO exceeds 1.4 V peak-to-peak, then dc
[17:59] <aadamson> coupling to the XIN pin should be used. The maximum allowed swing on XIN is 1.8 V peak-to-peak.
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[18:00] <aadamson> maybe I"m more than 1.4 and need to dc couple or adjust the level to make xin work
[18:01] <aadamson> is the output level varied by the input or how would you scale that up or down?
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[18:01] <LeoBodnar> DC is mentioned in the main datasheet iirc aadamson
[18:01] <aadamson> yes, thats where I copied that from
[18:02] <LeoBodnar> Si446x tends to lock up very easily if drive level is not to its liking
[18:02] <aadamson> just curious... how do you adjust that?
[18:03] <LeoBodnar> try damping it down by loading the Si side of the cap
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[18:03] <LeoBodnar> say with another 100pF cap
[18:03] <LeoBodnar> you should be able to half it
[18:03] <aadamson> http://www.foxonline.com/pdfs/FVXO_HC53.pdf is the vcxo that I use
[18:05] <aadamson> ok, you've given me some good ideas... basic stuff that I need to verify... I'm close, I just want perfect :)...
[18:05] <aadamson> one of my little problems with things like this ...
[18:06] <LeoBodnar> If it's HCMOS its output swing can reach almost full Vdd under light load. And with ringing even exceed that.
[18:08] <aadamson> yeah and that's kinda what the output of the si looks like... like I'm ringing something as the peaks are not perfect harmonics, etc...
[18:08] <aadamson> Ah and if I'm putting oh say 2+v pp into the si, that's gonna cause all kinds of issues.... makes sense
[18:08] <aadamson> also may be why I can't use xin :)...
[18:09] <aadamson> ok, now I think we are onto something and I can look into this... many thanks for the brainstorming.
[18:09] <LeoBodnar> no probs
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[18:18] <Laurenceb_> this is odd
[18:18] <Laurenceb_> i can use "if [ ! -f foo*.bar ] ; then"
[18:18] <Laurenceb_> from command line
[18:18] <Laurenceb_> but when i run it over the same directory from a script it always returns true
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> #bash
[18:19] Action: SpeedEvil is bad at scripting
[18:19] <Laurenceb_> heh
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> #bash is quite helpful, generally.
[18:19] <Laurenceb_> ok
[18:21] <Laurenceb_> maybe i need [[ and ]]
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[18:23] <Laurenceb_> http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/79301/test-if-there-are-files-matching-a-pattern-in-bash
[18:23] <Laurenceb_> annyoing
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[18:26] <nats`> Laurenceb why do you use bash
[18:26] <nats`> that's an awfull language
[18:26] <LeoBodnar> it's always there nats` :D
[18:27] <nats`> uhhmmmm on old distribution maybe but on new one you're pretty sure there is Python Perl and other
[18:27] <nats`> (Perl is worst than bash :p)
[18:28] <Carry_> Hey, does anyone have any North American sites for buying balloons and etc? Or should I just stick with Amazon or eBay?
[18:29] <jcoxon> Carry_, i think scientific sales sell
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[18:29] <Carry_> Alright, I'll have a look
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[18:36] <Day> So, i was looking into a balloon project, i was wondering how high it would go. And if it would actually be near the vacuum of space.
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> 'near' ..
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> The atmosphere extends - for some meanings - up past several hundred kilometers.
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> GEtting to about 40 kilometers is possible with inexpensive balloons.
[18:38] <Day> Ok
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> (latex weather balloons and hydrogen)
[18:38] <eroomde> you can quite easily get to a region where the pressure/density is <1% sea-level
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> If that's 'near space' is anyones call really.
[18:38] <eroomde> to give you an idea
[18:38] <Day> Thx
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> I personally like the definition of 'space' as 'when the mean free path for an air molecule exceeds 1/2 orbit'.
[18:39] <eroomde> that must be pretty high
[18:39] <eroomde> like, beyond the moon
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exobase#Lower_boundary
[18:40] <Carry_> I assume this isn't possible but I'm going to ask anyways: What if you attached a rocket and had it go off when you reach 40km?
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> Carry_: Sure.
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> Carry_: the problem is you still need to get to orbital speed
[18:40] <Carry_> That would be a lot of fuel...
[18:40] <jcoxon> Carry_, but it would go much higher
[18:41] <Carry_> Hmm, that'd be interesting
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> Carry_: you need to add 8km/s horizontally to get to orbit , and you now have added teh problem that your rocket starts out in an unpredictable orientation and very cold.
[18:41] <eroomde> Carry_: it's possible
[18:41] <eroomde> and it would be awesome
[18:42] <Carry_> Yeah you'd have to have some stabilization I would think
[18:42] <jcoxon> eroomde, almost the holy grail of ballooning
[18:42] <Laurenceb_> will rsync -avz overwrite more recent local files?
[18:43] <Laurenceb_> it checks based on time right?
[18:44] <eroomde> Carry_: i think you can get away with stabilisation
[18:45] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[18:45] <eroomde> assuming you just wanted to get to space rather than get into orbit
[18:45] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[18:45] <Carry_> Well, yes, eventually
[18:45] <Carry_> As long as your craft is balanced I guess it'd be okay
[18:46] <Laurenceb_> Carry_: i looked at spin stabilization
[18:46] <Laurenceb_> its hard
[18:46] <Laurenceb_> but doable if you have the skills
[18:46] <Carry_> I bet..
[18:46] <Carry_> I have no skills xD
[18:47] <eroomde> you can just launch very hard at a low enough altitude where there's still some atmosphere
[18:47] <Carry_> I've yet to even launch anything, just thinking about it
[18:47] <eroomde> we had a design that called for about 50G acceleration from about 28km
[18:47] <eroomde> that would get above 100km
[18:47] <Carry_> Yeah you'd need something to push off to get you started..
[18:47] <Carry_> Holy
[18:48] <eroomde> you don;t need anything to push off
[18:48] <Carry_> 50G? What we're you going to strap on there?
[18:48] <eroomde> a L730
[18:48] <eroomde> a solid rocket motor
[18:48] <eroomde> on a very lightweight carbon-fibre rocket
[18:49] <daveake> Even the LOHAN thing could do 10g, depending on choice of motor
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> If you want to get to orbit from a balloon you basically have no choice but to start out relatively slowly
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> the drag otherwise is murderous.
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> Even if you start out at 35km.
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> It's not nearly as bad as at sea level - but it's quite bad enough.
[18:50] <eroomde> for small rockets certainly
[18:50] <eroomde> the cube-square law goes against you
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[18:51] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Well - yes. I would be truly entertained to see someont trying to launch a hundred ton rocket from 35km :)
[18:51] <Carry_> Heheh, indeed..
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> Once you get to a hundred kilos or so launch weight - especially if you're doing liquids, and multi-stages - it becomes sort-of-plausible to get to orbit.
[18:52] <eroomde> it becomes sort of silly to launch from a balloon
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> But that would be very much for example 100 grams of payload, and four stages.
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> its not impossible to make a spin launcher
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> Err - 'get to orbit from teh ground'
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> even the famous Monroe got that far
[18:52] <Carry_> But at they point you may as well launch from the ground
[18:52] <eroomde> the energy saving from launching 30km higher is pretty insignificant
[18:52] <Carry_> Kind of my thoughts
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> its the drag thats the issue
[18:53] <eroomde> i really don;t think you can get into orbit with 100km liftoff weight
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> also ISP is a little higher
[18:53] <eroomde> really don't
[18:53] <eroomde> 100kg*
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> i got it down to 1Kg
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> in ym design
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> with 10gram payload
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> 35Km launch
[18:53] <eroomde> yes but you didn't built it
[18:54] <eroomde> because it would be impossible
[18:54] <Laurenceb_> lol
[18:54] <Carry_> Has anyone ever done it with 2 balloons, does it makes sense to?
[18:54] <eroomde> yes
[18:54] <eroomde> yes 2 balloons have been used to launch payloads
[18:54] <eroomde> whether or not it makes sense depends specifically on what you want in your flight
[18:54] <eroomde> 99" of the time i'd say just use a bigger balloon
[18:54] <eroomde> 99%
[18:55] <Carry_> Haha, and the 1%?
[18:55] <eroomde> well, this one time
[18:55] <eroomde> ... at band camp ...
[18:55] <Carry_> Oh no.
[18:55] <eroomde> we wanted to test-fly a star tracker
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: The above was basically assuming a first stage weighing 60kg or so which accellerates and burns at ~0.8 mach till burnout at (from memory) 50km and 1km/s or so.
[18:55] <eroomde> so we wanted to get up to alt fairly quickly, say 28km, then stay there for a while to test the tracker
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: i have launch at 35Km, burnout at 65Km for first stage
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> coast to 200Km
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: then the latter three stages are vacuum optimised.
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> second stage gives additional 5Km/sec delta v to orbit
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> Big plus is staging is where there is no air.
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> but its been done already
[18:56] <eroomde> so we had 2 balloons, one which had basically the same lift as the weight of the payload, such that it would more-or-less float
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> explorer 1
[18:56] <eroomde> and another second balloon which provided more lift
[18:56] <Laurenceb_> is exactly this
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: yeah - your idea looks fin too.
[18:57] <eroomde> so we flew with both to 28km, the detached the second balloon, then it just kinda floated under the first one for a while
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> explorer 1, but swap the first stage for a balloon
[18:57] <Laurenceb_> and you get this
[18:57] <Carry_> Huh.
[18:57] <Carry_> That's cool
[18:57] <Natio> Hi again guys! Wheres the balloon at now? :D
[18:57] <eroomde> deaded
[18:57] <eroomde> died over the ukraine
[18:57] <Natio> Aww thats to bad
[18:58] <Carry_> [VGTA]?
[18:58] <eroomde> good lfight though, balloon and tracker performed very well
[18:58] <Natio> I hoped it wold reach Russia
[18:58] <Carry_> How big was it?
[18:58] <daveake> Thought it did, just
[18:58] <cm13g09> for anyone who hasn't seen this and has an interest in programming (any language), https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat - It makes you realise just how good some programming languages are ;)
[18:58] <eroomde> maybe it did
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[19:01] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: so why can't you do orbit with a rockoon?
[19:02] <eroomde> you can
[19:02] <eroomde> maybe
[19:02] <eroomde> but why would you?
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[19:02] <eroomde> like paiting a wall with a toothbrush
[19:02] <eroomde> just pathological
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> lol
[19:02] <Carry_> Well it's the difference from near space and outer space
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> fairdoos
[19:02] <Carry_> If you can get a orbit
[19:03] <eroomde> no
[19:03] <eroomde> orbit and space are orhtogonal concepts
[19:03] <eroomde> you can get into space and not be in orbit
[19:03] <Laurenceb_> yeah, utterly
[19:03] <eroomde> and vice versa
[19:03] <Carry_> I'm talking about a stable orbit
[19:03] Action: SpeedEvil jumps up and down.
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> (suborbital)
[19:03] <eroomde> sure, but you can be in space and not be in orbit
[19:04] <eroomde> i could fire a cannon straight up and have the cannon ball go up above the international space station and then fall straight back down
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> i was wondering about that...
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> i have too many insane ideas
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Don't - it's illegal to frighten astronauts.
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> suborbital grappler
[19:05] <Laurenceb_> it grabs onto orbital stuff
[19:05] <Carry_> I understand that, but stable orbits have to 'fall' around earth to be a orbit
[19:05] <Laurenceb_> not the same as tether stuff
[19:05] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: err - grabbing onto stuff that's at 8km/s is 'challenging'
[19:05] <Laurenceb_> use magnetic induction or something to grapple some foil
[19:05] <eroomde> grappling things with a closed speed of 17,500ph tends to make the orbital debris problem worse rather than better
[19:05] <Laurenceb_> then accelerate
[19:05] <Laurenceb_> heh
[19:06] <eroomde> anyway it's not a huge problem in LEO <1000km
[19:06] <Carry_> I suppose if you actually figured out a way to get something in a proper orbit you could try to make a little space station
[19:06] <eroomde> everything will come back down within a few years
[19:06] <eroomde> it's the 1000+km stuff that causes nightmares
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> dunno how feasible it is to grapple foil
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> compared to space elevator
[19:07] Action: SpeedEvil wishes someone would just work out how to make high yield 'cheap' long SWNTs.
[19:07] <eroomde> Carry_: i think basically making a system that minimises $$/kg into orbit is the answer
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: there is a point for small launchers too though.
[19:09] <eroomde> yes i agree
[19:09] <eroomde> but i think small wants to be 100ish kg
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[19:09] <eroomde> there's just too much engineering cost for 1kg or payload, the cost would be insane
[19:09] <eroomde> and these things just don't scale down well
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> If there were no regulatory requirements - I could see few kilo launchers not being insane.
[19:09] <eroomde> but i am fully convinced of the utility of a smallsat launcher
[19:09] <eroomde> SSTL would bite your arm off
[19:10] <eroomde> 100kg into polar orbit from dounrae, for £2M
[19:10] <eroomde> you'd have yourself a party
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> But even if you can scale the technical requirements - hitting the regulatory ones would be hard.
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> thats not small
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> 100g is small :P
[19:10] <eroomde> 100g is useless
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> heh i suppose
[19:10] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: no not hard
[19:10] <eroomde> if you're serious, there's a need for this
[19:11] <eroomde> the gov would help you get it done
[19:11] <eroomde> why do you think we have david willets comissioning the CAA to start putting the regulatory framework in place for our bird
[19:12] <Carry_> Why do I never hear about European Space Agency(ies)?
[19:12] <Carry_> Other than the fact that I'm from Canada
[19:12] <eroomde> they do do stuff
[19:12] <eroomde> i worked for them for 6 months
[19:12] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Well - to be fair - the hard work's been done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow - wander over to Woomera with a tape measure.
[19:12] <eroomde> australis is miles away
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> That looks almost tempting. I mean - 2m diameter * 13m tall - I could put that in the garden, and nobody'd notice.
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> (until I lit the blue touchpaper)
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> hah. The third (solid) stage has better ISP than the liquids.
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[19:23] <Laurenceb_> The HPR reloads are suprisingly good
[19:24] <Laurenceb_> over 220s ISP with the stock cases
[19:24] <Laurenceb_> at 35Km+ with a decent nozzle it looks like 270 to 280s
[19:25] <eroomde> yeah it's quite respectable
[19:30] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: when XORing the results do you calculate the difference between 0s and 1s in the end?
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[19:30] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: The number of 0s or 1s in the output more or less than 50% is your signal.
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: you take the PRN, xor with your signal - and ideally - get all ones or all zeros.
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> i.e. 10101010 produces 0 and 11111111 +8 and 00000000 -8
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> ?
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> In reality - with noise - you get a bias towards 0 or 1
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> yes
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> I am talking about XORed PRN and data
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> indeed.
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> cool
[19:32] <Laurenceb_> yeah check the code i pastebinned
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> You may in some cases want to consider 'soft decisions' - which can in principle boost your performance.
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> That is - not use xor, but properly multiply your input signal - if it's more than one bit.
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> I am just going to use 256 bytes lookup table
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> I think it is quicker
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> But this isn't required for really good signal
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> If you care about jam resistance and low signal though - you wouldn't be hacking it like this though
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> it's a ghetto design so far
[19:37] <YO9ICT> What was the page that let me view different graphs about a payload ?
[19:37] <LeoBodnar> let me hack my version first before I contaminate my thinking
[19:37] <LeoBodnar> *or clear up rather
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[19:38] <LeoBodnar> http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/9f099e7e19c80d01d431ab5c52ffb721#g/batterymv,status,satellites
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[19:38] <YO9ICT> Tnx Leo !
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[19:41] <Laurenceb_> arg
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> this isnt my day
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> im trying to make some shell script stuff and so far it just deletes all my files
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> mv -uf "$f" "../processed_data/$f"
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> ^ seems to delete everything
[19:42] <Laurenceb_> are there any conditions under which that could happen?
[19:42] <eroomde> what are you trying to do?
[19:43] <Laurenceb_> more files from current location to the processed_data directory
[19:43] <Laurenceb_> but they disappear never to be seen again
[19:44] <LeoBodnar> processed data does not need file suffix I think?
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> oh, no they dont
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> sync issues
[19:44] <fsphil> is $f a single file?
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> cd ../../../../
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> then reenter the directory tree
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> and it runs nicely
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[19:46] <LeoBodnar> is $f a file name?
[19:46] <LeoBodnar> or is this bash script?
[19:48] <Laurenceb_> bash script
[19:48] <Reb-SM3ULC> Laurenceb_: try to just echo the whole command
[19:48] <Laurenceb_> works now thanks :P
[19:48] <Laurenceb_> ok
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[19:53] <Upu_M0UPU> evening
[19:53] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> Upu
[19:54] <Upu> the GPS continuing to work is probably because it has its own step up internally
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[20:18] <YO9ICT> Upu , how do you compare the THOR16 performance vs classic RTTY ?
[20:19] <Upu> well it certainly works better when weaker
[20:19] <Upu> there were points where I'm sure RTTY would have failed to decode
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[20:30] <YO9ICT> Spoken to the guys from YO who helped with the decode this morning, they think is the opposite way
[20:30] <Upu> they think RTTY would have been better ?
[20:32] <MLow> Upu: i have an odd question
[20:32] <MLow> im using multimon because it's ability to decode afsk1200 seems far superior to all other decoders, and im on windows
[20:33] <MLow> do you know of a way to get the output of multimon
[20:33] <Upu> don't even know what multimon is sorry
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[20:34] <MLow> its a command line application
[20:34] <MLow> i know in linux you can do output to a file
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[20:48] <YO9ICT> Yes, they think RTTY is slighty better
[20:48] <YO9ICT> That's also my opinion
[20:49] <Upu> interesting
[20:49] <YO9ICT> THOR can be used if it has a higher baud rate
[20:49] <Upu> and hard to compare as they weren't side by side
[20:49] <YO9ICT> I have decoded it using an SDR from Southampton yesterday so I heard it, that this is my opinion
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[20:50] <Upu> I'll put it out there see what people think
[20:50] <YO9ICT> Would be interesting to make a side by side comparision
[20:50] <Upu> yep hard to do
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[20:57] <YO9ICT> Upu , Can you share the code for THOR ?
[20:58] <Upu> I didn't write it so I'll have to check
[20:58] <YO9ICT> Ok, leave me an email at yo9ict [at] gmail.com if you can
[20:59] <Upu> ok
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[21:27] <aadamson> any of you Si guys still on the channel?
[21:27] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, you around?
[21:27] <aadamson> I think I found the problem
[21:28] <aadamson> and you were spot on it appears
[21:28] <wd8mnv> you might want to post it anyway, and maybe someone sees it later
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[21:30] <aadamson> hehe... so the VXCO that I'm using is an HCMOS version and if I read the data sheet right, it's swing is .1*vdd to .9@vdd or in this case let's call it 2.9-3v as the vcxo's vdd is 3v3
[21:30] <aadamson> So therein lies the problem.... I need to be 600mV to 1.4v and I'm pretty sure I'm about 2.9V :(
[21:31] <aadamson> and this is most likely why people aren't able to use Xin because they have too much drive
[21:31] <aadamson> so now the question... how do I take the vcxo output and scale it down?... I need the same frequency, just less drive
[21:32] <MLow> logic level converter?
[21:33] <bertrik> I would say a simple resistive divider, but have no actual experience with clock signals
[21:34] <aadamson> ya me too I'm kinda in the same boat... so let's say its... 80% of 3v3 call it 2.7v
[21:35] <aadamson> and it's AC coupled so on the other side of the cap, its probably 2.5v... so if I can divide it half *voltage wise*, I'd be in the ballpark
[21:42] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
[21:44] <bertrik> perhaps you can use a capacitive divider too? added advantage is that you don't waste dc current
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[21:49] <aadamson> hmm and that might be easier than I thought... Ideally I want to use Xin (I'm using xout at the moment)... and it just happens that I have the pads for a series and shunt device on the xin pins :).... hmmm
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[21:56] <LeoBodnar> aadamson: back here
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[21:58] <LeoBodnar> yes, use capacitive divider
[21:58] <LeoBodnar> aadamson: <LeoBodnar> try damping it down by loading the Si side of the cap [18:03] <LeoBodnar> say with another 100pF cap
[21:59] <aadamson> ok, I think I have some 150pf caps, and a series and shunt pad on my xin pin, if I use 2 of those caps, that could give me half the voltage and still be ac coupled, ya think the 15opuf will be ok?
[21:59] <aadamson> 150puff
[22:00] <LeoBodnar> I hope so, continuous constant load might be a good thing for VCXO as well
[22:00] <aadamson> ok... gonna try that, digging through my parts to find the 150's... there are here somewhere :)
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[22:04] <ike> LeoBodnar did you see that http://forum.43oh.com/topic/4833-potm-daisy-a-simple-ais-receiver/
[22:04] <ike> I wonder if a balloon can represent itself as a ship
[22:04] <ike> and use other ships to track it
[22:06] <ike> you know "The Flying Dutchman" . It happend before, so it will hapend again
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[22:07] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, oh, and I found the *other* major issue
[22:09] <aadamson> stupid me... that graph was off a funcube pro+ which was ok, but my problem was, I was using an HT with sma screwed onto my board.... duh, there is no groundplane so I was getting a bad match and putting out junk that was getting back into the board
[22:09] <aadamson> when I checked everything with it connected to my service monitor and a 50 ohm match... life was *much* better
[22:09] <aadamson> That's probably 70% of the issue, but I"m sure driving xout with close to 3v isn't good no a variety of fronts.
[22:10] <aadamson> and if my theory holds true, getting the level back down to where the chip wants I'm better I'll be able to use Xin!
[22:11] <aadamson> I'll drop you a message directly with my results... it's going to be a little while before I get to it... it's dinner/ dog walking etc time here :)... and if you are in the UK or EU, it's starting to get late you way as well... THANKS again for the sounding board... it helped a bunch!
[22:17] <LeoBodnar> yeah, no probs! thanks for the info aadamson
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[22:18] <mfa298> cm13g09: pong
[22:18] <LeoBodnar> ike: balloon can even represent itself as an aircraft with mode-C transponder but that would be illegal I suppose
[22:19] <LeoBodnar> you need licence for AIS and aircraft comms
[22:20] <ike> but it's legal in somalia so no problem there
[22:22] <LeoBodnar> heh my mum told me not to get in trouble, I assume she actually meant "Son, don't transmit on AIS frequency"
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[22:23] <ike> you will not TX on AIS frequency, your balloon will
[22:29] <LeoBodnar> Hmm... "For a stationary receiver on Earth, the Doppler frequency shift will never exceed 5 kHz" http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b9O6EmBlc0cC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=%22doppler+frequency+shift+will+never+exceed%22&source=bl&ots=SPJyASjnWJ&sig=9YJaAbdmD4-WQf9HGqfDKbu6sCM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_BbTUqrKA4qThQfcgIGICg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22doppler%20frequency%20shift%20will%20never%20exceed%22&f=false
[22:30] <LeoBodnar> So it is realistic to narrow Doppler search range to +-6kHz
[22:30] <LeoBodnar> Unless your name is Ed
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> dont forget TCXO drift
[22:31] <LeoBodnar> I was just a bout to say that
[22:31] <LeoBodnar> 1PPM = 1600Hz extra
[22:31] <LeoBodnar> but I use 0.5PPM TCXOs
[22:32] <LeoBodnar> so +-6kHz
[22:36] <Laurenceb_> nice
[22:39] <ike> what if your balloon is flying with 300kmph/200mph
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[22:43] <LeoBodnar> less then 1000Hz for 650kph
[22:43] <LeoBodnar> and that's only for near horizon sats
[22:43] <LeoBodnar> as ones near zenith will have zero extra shift
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: And remember that doppler is correlated to HDOP
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> oh - you got there - I should read all the way down
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> yeah - if you knowish where you are, and can look at only the top 120 degrees of the constellation say you're down another couple of khz
[22:49] <mfa298> ike for AIS the transmitter needs to be covered by at least one license (I think there may actually be a license for the ship as well as a licene for the person responsible) and I believe you need an ID that's assigned to the vessel. I suspect there's similar stuff for ADSB as well.
[22:50] <LeoBodnar> low angle sats should improve the HDOP but would ionosphere degrade the signal too much?
[22:50] <mfa298> also marine bands cannot generally be used legally on land
[22:50] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: not terribly.
[22:50] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: For 99.9% of HAB stuff +-300m would do - and that's damn nearly doable with no satellites. :)
[22:51] <LeoBodnar> heh
[22:52] <ike> LeoBodnar if you have GPS clock and know where the Sun is, then you don't need GPS
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> ike: If you know where down is
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> Also - sun alt only gives you one datapoint.
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> You also need orientation
[22:55] <LeoBodnar> Starry sky is enough for anything if you can see planets
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[22:56] <Laurenceb_> or just magnet field versus gravity
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> combined with sun
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> but its rather silly
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> compared to all this, SDR GPS is quite practical
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> Moon+venus+sun
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[23:00] <Laurenceb_> lol
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[23:12] <WillTablet> What is all this drama on the mailing list?
[23:15] <mattbrejza> :/
[23:16] <WillTablet> I don't get it what happened?
[23:16] <mattbrejza> a thing happened?
[23:17] <mattbrejza> i didnt tihnk we had any mailing list dramas for a while
[23:18] <WillTablet> Reading wrong list :-)
[23:18] <WillTablet> Oops
[23:18] <WillTablet> It was UK.radio.amateur
[23:18] <WillTablet> Full of trolls
[23:20] <mfa298> yeah, best bet is stay well away from uk.radio.amateur
[23:20] <WillTablet> Yup
[23:20] <mfa298> the snr in that newsgroup is almost non existant
[23:21] <WillTablet> I've decided that once played with the HF transceiver I'll probably get an Ft 857D used somewhere
[23:22] <WillTablet> I hear a lot of people set their radios to a beacon and set the squelch and just leave it on all the time so they know when a band is open
[23:23] <mfa298> it would be a method if you're particularly interested in a band
[23:25] <WillTablet> On another note this new aerial I have should be good for rxing balloons
[23:25] <mfa298> what antenna is it ?
[23:25] <WillTablet> Putting it on a mast in the garden temporarily
[23:25] <SpeedEvil> WillTablet: Also popping them, if you poke them.
[23:26] <WillTablet> Vertex 250E or something, let me check
[23:28] <WillTablet> Vertex VT-120D
[23:30] <mfa298> just use some decent coax with it
[23:36] <ike> is there solar pannel outputing 300mA at 3.6V with meazurement 4x4x0.04mm?
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> ike: 4mm?
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> hhhahhhahha.
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> In short - no.
[23:36] <ike> that is too bad
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> 1kW/m^2. 100mW/cm^2. After typical solar cell efficiency - 17mW/cm^2
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> So, 4*4mm would get you around 3mW
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> Or 1mA@3V - optimistically
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> Why 4mm?
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[23:38] <ike> I would love to see thracker with this GPS http://www.electronicscomponentsworld.com/imagemanager_net/images/march2009/ublox_amy5_5pence.jpg this mcu http://www.electronicsweekly.com/embedded-live/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2010/08/01nxp-m0.jpg
[23:39] <ike> and this TX http://bg.mouser.com/images/siliconlaboratories/lrg/Si446x.JPG
[23:39] <ike> stacked on top of each other
[23:39] <ike> all I missing is power
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[23:40] <ike> is there 4x4mm nuclear battery?
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> No.
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[23:48] <LeoBodnar> Start from something doable and push it further. What is the point in smallest tracker?
[23:49] <ike> I can swallow it and thack myslef
[23:50] <LeoBodnar> Custom ASIC would be ideal but I can't see much point
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> A tracker running on 3mW is not barking mad.
[23:50] <ike> LeoBodnar can you glue tracker with those parts on the back side of solar panel and have light and small tracker?
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> - average.
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> You'd need a battery
[23:50] <LeoBodnar> Yes but why?
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> ike: there is very little point
[23:50] <ike> or super cap
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> ike: you can save a fraction of a gram, but construction gets more annoying.
[23:51] <LeoBodnar> 8g tracker floats at 9800m. 1g tracker floats at 11000m under a Qualatex baloon
[23:51] <ike> 0.5gr tracker can fly with just nylon bag
[23:52] <LeoBodnar> to 3000-4000m yes
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[00:00] --- Mon Jan 13 2014