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[00:07] <Laurenceb_> error estimated by perman00b algorithm
[00:13] JDat (JDat@ left irc:
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[00:18] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego_Mindstorms_EV3
[00:18] <Laurenceb_> another linux platform :P
[00:21] <LeoBodnar> arko: yo! is Robocop stuff there too? I think it had 6502 assembly featured
[00:21] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[00:21] <arko> robocop was huge here in the 90's
[00:22] <LeoBodnar> Terminator as well possibly
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[00:26] <Laurenceb_> turbocop
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[00:32] <LeoBodnar> Excellent spread spectrum brief http://sss-mag.com/pdf/Ss_jme_denayer_intro_print.pdf
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[00:38] <Laurenceb_> why does this exist
[00:38] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sealab_2021
[00:38] <WillTablet> Aww this is so sweet http://blog.duolingo.com/post/53207277316/a-duolingo-proposal
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[00:41] <Laurenceb_> someone actually took the time to write that
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[01:11] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OEz_e9C4KM
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[07:33] <Darkside> dumm de dumm, beaming long path europ on 20m
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[08:26] <jcoxon> morning
[08:31] <Upu> morning
[08:32] <kossy> morning morning
[08:32] <Upu> going for a reccy walk with dog to see if I can see blue sky
[08:34] <jcoxon> its good here Upu
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[08:45] <eroomde> v blue here
[08:46] <jcoxon> my measure of cloud is if i can see the shard
[08:47] <jcoxon> which i can
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[08:56] <Upu> yes the weather likes to troll me, it was sunny and blue when I set off
[08:57] <Upu> but within 30 mins a large bank of solid low grey cloud has rolled in
[08:57] <Upu> and its now raining
[08:57] Action: Upu puts the tracker back in the box
[08:58] <jcoxon> :-(
[08:58] <eroomde> a metaphor for life
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[09:34] <Reb-SM3ULC> Upu: any good forecast?
[09:36] <fsphil> foggy and icy here
[09:39] Action: Reb-SM3ULC has -4C and some 5 cm fresh snow in the 420-euro-launch-country.
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[09:59] <YO9ICT> Hi, can someone explain me the difference between pedestrian and flight mode, in terms of accuracy and operational limits ?
[10:03] <x-f> pedestrian mode (default, i think) works up to 12 km altitude and has acceleration limit, but gives more accurate position, flight mode - up to 50 km altitude
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[10:04] <YO9ICT> Has anyone tried to launch with Pedestrian mode and then switch it into Flight at x meters alt ?
[10:04] <x-f> flight mode is good on the ground too, but you can (if you can) switch to the pedestrian mode when below certain altitude
[10:05] <daveake> yes it's been done
[10:05] <eroomde> not sure why you'd particularly want to though
[10:05] <YO9ICT> I was thinking about a more accurate position upon landing
[10:05] <daveake> iirc Upu did that on the one that landed atop an Austrian mountain - it was still in flight mode when it landed :p
[10:05] <eroomde> it'll be as accurate if it's standing still
[10:05] <jcoxon> i personally just use flight mode through out
[10:06] <eroomde> for a given stationart position, the airborne and pedestrian modes will give you the same mean position
[10:06] <eroomde> just the airborne mode might have a higher varience
[10:06] <eroomde> but they'll both be plenty good enough to find it in a field
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[10:08] Nick change: MLow_ -> MLow
[10:08] <YO9ICT> Is there any difference in current consumption ?
[10:09] <eroomde> don't think so
[10:09] <eroomde> can't pretend i've looked at the datasheet in the last 3-4 months
[10:09] <jcoxon> i don't think they are measurable different
[10:10] <eroomde> they're just coefficients in the state-estimation filter
[10:10] <eroomde> same cpu cycles, i'd have thought
[10:10] <jcoxon> the risk is that the additional complexity of switching puts you at risk of going into predestrian at altitude
[10:10] <eroomde> yeah exactly. it's good to avoid 'state' wherever possible
[10:10] <jcoxon> and the ublox doesn't cope well in that situation
[10:11] <eroomde> unless you can test very thoroughly
[10:11] <YO9ICT> Understand, and that makes sense
[10:11] <eroomde> it's amazing how many times state bites people in hab
[10:11] <eroomde> they put in some condition that they are sure will be met
[10:11] <eroomde> and it's nt met
[10:12] <x-f> "every flight is a test flight"
[10:12] <YO9ICT> :-)
[10:12] Action: jcoxon looks away
[10:12] <YO9ICT> Another question, if you guys still have time
[10:12] <eroomde> always
[10:13] <eroomde> i'm half watching a mornign tv cookery program, having a black coffee, and browsing the web
[10:13] <eroomde> it's not a day of being rushed
[10:13] <eroomde> although people coming for dinner and staying over, i need to make them something
[10:13] <eroomde> not that you need to know all this information
[10:14] <YO9ICT> By taking ADC measurment of the batt voltage at count intervals, instead every time can save some mA ?
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[10:14] <eroomde> yes, although the savings from using the ADC less will be very very small
[10:15] <eroomde> compared to things like the gps and the radio, the microcontroller doesn;t add much to the total power budget
[10:16] <YO9ICT> I have managed 5 hrs from a Li AAA and I want to sqeeze every mA
[10:16] <eroomde> people can get 1-2 days from AAA
[10:16] <eroomde> it's all about gps low power modes
[10:17] <eroomde> also the microcntroller's power consumption goes up non-linearly with clock frequency
[10:17] <eroomde> so for example the saving from going from a 8mhz clock to a 2mhz clock is huge
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[10:17] <eroomde> and 2mhz is still plenty for a basic tracker
[10:17] <YO9ICT> I'm running at 3.3, so I cannot except very long run times
[10:18] <eroomde> indeed, the switch to 1.8 would obviously be a big help
[10:18] <eroomde> ok, so in your case i'd tr and profile first (as with optimising software)
[10:18] <eroomde> i suspect the greatest savings will be had from working hard on the gps
[10:18] <YO9ICT> Let's suppose I can not do 1.8 :-)
[10:19] <eroomde> yep :) so gps, the figure out how little you need to transmit
[10:19] <YO9ICT> After 5+ sats I put the GPS into power saving, that reduces the currect drawn from a single AAA from 250 to 170 mA
[10:20] <eroomde> 170mA!?!?!
[10:20] <eroomde> that's enormous!
[10:20] <jcoxon> step up i assume
[10:20] <YO9ICT> Yes
[10:20] <eroomde> oh yes
[10:20] <eroomde> gah, go 1.8V :)
[10:21] <eroomde> i'd definitely try lowing the cpu-freq on the microcontroller
[10:21] <eroomde> what radio are you using?
[10:21] <YO9ICT> the RFM22B
[10:21] <eroomde> there might be some gains from looking at the step-up
[10:21] <eroomde> are you optimising for weight or for power consumption?
[10:22] <YO9ICT> I am doing solar ballooning, so the weight is the first factor
[10:22] <YO9ICT> The stepup is a TPS61201
[10:23] <eroomde> ok. so often with step-up convertes the efficiency is to do with the switching speed and losses in the components you use around it, dominated by the inductor
[10:24] <eroomde> you can often buy 5-10% more efficiency from the converter by tackling that
[10:24] <eroomde> and TI provide a nice (if clunky) online tool called the webbench that will design a step-up circuit for you where you can optimise for efficiency, or cost, or parts count, or whatever
[10:25] <YO9ICT> Ok, will check that !
[10:26] <eroomde> but i'd definitely tackle the microcontroller next
[10:26] <eroomde> if you've got what you can from the gps
[10:26] <YO9ICT> I saw on the ublox datasheet a mode that will turn off the RF part , might be useful doing that during the long RTTY transmission ?
[10:26] <eroomde> make sure you're using timers to sleep, not nasty sleepus() functions or anything like that
[10:26] <YO9ICT> The design is a Cheapo v4
[10:27] <eroomde> YO9ICT: yes possibly. i presume it's a passive antenna?
[10:27] <YO9ICT> Yes, chip antenna
[10:27] <eroomde> ok fine
[10:28] <YO9ICT> 2) Switch the RF GPS section off, draws about 5mA, retains its settings, wakes on serial command. from http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox_psm
[10:29] <eroomde> go for it
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[10:29] <eroomde> and document all your steps
[10:30] <eroomde> will be v useful for others
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[10:31] <YO9ICT> Will try that today
[10:37] <Upu> 1`qyuio[]
[10:37] <jonsowman> profound
[10:37] <eroomde> that looks passwordy
[10:38] <jonsowman> it does a bit
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[10:40] Action: jcoxon starts his tax return
[10:40] <eroomde> surely the NHS can sort all of that out for you
[10:40] <jcoxon> yeah but i used to rent my flat out
[10:41] <eroomde> ah righty
[10:41] <jcoxon> and as its the year before i'm still catching up
[10:41] <eroomde> yeah
[10:41] <eroomde> i'm gonna have to start all that when i rent a room out
[10:41] <jcoxon> its not too bad
[10:42] <eroomde> i'm celebrating the water-level starting to drop around the island by having some people for dinner this eve
[10:42] <eroomde> it's gone down 15cm
[10:43] <jcoxon> hooray
[10:43] <eroomde> it's been a hairy 7 days
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[11:10] <LeoBodnar> What is the largest cross-correlation between PRNs?
[11:10] <eroomde> like zero
[11:10] <eroomde> i don;t know exactly
[11:11] <eroomde> but the gold codes (as that set are called) are pulled from the set of 2^1023possible codes because of their properties that 1) they have effecitvely zero correlation with each other and 2) they have effectively zero autocorrelation
[11:11] <eroomde> i.e. correlation with themselves at different shifts
[11:11] <LeoBodnar> Aren't they degraded slightly for the sake of practicality same chiplength, etc?
[11:11] <eroomde> so it's basically zero cross correlation. you could certainly *never* get the wrong sat
[11:12] <eroomde> well, they are all only 1023 chips long, which is a constraint
[11:12] <eroomde> it's just an approximation of randomness
[11:12] <eroomde> vs being infinitely long
[11:14] <LeoBodnar> In practice they are derived from "ideal" zero cross-correlation sets but then made slightly more practical which dissolves their goodness a bit
[11:14] <eroomde> yeah
[11:15] <LeoBodnar> THat's what I barely remember and I can't find the reference to this
[11:15] <eroomde> well, it's not infinitely long
[11:15] <eroomde> it's periodic
[11:15] <eroomde> so just that along is completely enough to prove that it's not going to be as good as a perfectly random code
[11:15] <eroomde> that alone*
[11:15] <LeoBodnar> sure
[11:16] <LeoBodnar> if phase shift is not whole chip
[11:17] <eroomde> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_code
[11:17] <eroomde> thar you go
[11:18] <eroomde> a set of codes whose cross-correlation properties satisfy some bound
[11:19] <LeoBodnar> cheers
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[11:20] <eroomde> bugger, this convo reminded me that i left a text book at work that i wanted this weekend
[11:20] <eroomde> tedious
[11:20] <LeoBodnar> Interesting factoid: the timing unit in PRNs is called "chip" to reflect the fact that it does not carry any information as opposed to "bit" in modulating data
[11:21] <eroomde> yes
[11:21] <eroomde> it gets very confusing
[11:21] <eroomde> especially with FEC because 'bit' means different things to information theory people and computer scientists
[11:21] <LeoBodnar> This actually has cleared up as I did not know that
[11:21] <LeoBodnar> same with "symbol"
[11:22] <eroomde> i have some computer science friends who get very upset with the idea that i can say something like 'whether the sun is burning or not burning is less than one bit of information'
[11:22] <LeoBodnar> as I don't belong to either group
[11:22] <eroomde> and they say 'no! it's burning (1) or not burning (0) - it's exactly one bit!'
[11:23] <eroomde> and then you either start talking about entropy or chage the topic of conversation
[11:24] <eroomde> bayes rule is the nearest thing i have to religion
[11:24] <jonsowman> :D
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[11:27] <Upu> still *may* launch later on
[11:27] <Upu> problem is one way is lovely
[11:27] <Upu> other way is this : http://i.imgur.com/0eoIRH1.jpg
[11:30] <cm13g09> AH
[11:30] <cm13g09> suboptimal weather then Upu
[11:33] <Willdude123> eroomde: how would it be less than one bit?
[11:33] <eroomde> Willdude123: it has less than 1 bit of information
[11:33] <eroomde> so
[11:34] <eroomde> let's say i tell you now that the sun is burning
[11:34] <eroomde> is that a surprise to you?
[11:42] <Willdude123> No
[11:42] <LeoBodnar> ring Metoffice for advice
[11:42] <eroomde> Willdude123: ok
[11:43] <eroomde> so i haven't told you anything you don't know
[11:43] <Willdude123> Nope
[11:43] <eroomde> i've therefore conveyed no information to you
[11:43] <LeoBodnar> I know a person who rang them and asked why wind is blowing along the isobars and not across
[11:43] <LeoBodnar> And got coherent answer
[11:44] <eroomde> yet on a computer you might still use 1 bit to store that information, even tho there is very very little information actually there
[11:44] <eroomde> here's another example
[11:44] <eroomde> i'm going to send you a message Willdude123, and in each word i will randomly remove one letter. i want you to tell me what the original message was
[11:45] <LeoBodnar> I am interested area of intersection between information theory and quantum mechanics
[11:45] <LeoBodnar> *in the
[11:45] <eroomde> hllo Wlldude123 yu ar tlking t eromde n nternet rlay cht
[11:47] <qyx_> not anough fec
[11:47] <LeoBodnar> I have posted this yesterday but here it is again for the benefits of anybody interested in spread spectrum techniques and DSSS in particuar http://sss-mag.com/pdf/Ss_jme_denayer_intro_print.pdf
[11:47] <LeoBodnar> What the FEC?
[11:48] <LeoBodnar> IF this statement were to use FEC it would have been unprintable.
[11:49] <eroomde> Willdude123: nudge. if we're going to do this i need you to not be also doing battlefield 3 or on reddit or some other bollocks
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[11:49] <eroomde> as otherwise i'm going to give up talking to you, as this happens too much
[11:49] <Upu> he's not playing BF :)
[11:53] <eroomde> he's not paying attention either
[11:53] <Upu> no
[11:54] <daveake> so that's at least 1 bit of information he's returned without saying anything :p
[11:54] #highaltitude: mode change '+o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[11:54] Willdude123 kicked from #highaltitude by Upu: Pay attention!
[11:54] <LeoBodnar> incoming!
[11:54] #highaltitude: mode change '-o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[11:55] <LeoBodnar> unduck
[11:55] <eroomde> not sure that's in the freenode moderation guide but nvm :)
[11:55] <jonsowman> not sure that was entirely necessary
[11:55] <LeoBodnar> launching today Upu ?
[11:55] <jonsowman> if he's not seeing nick highlights there's no reason a kick is going to help
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[11:55] <Upu> felt that way out
[11:56] <Upu> dunno LeoBodnar
[11:56] <Upu> the weather isn't playing ball
[11:56] <Upu> It looks ok so I duck outside and there is a huge grey cloud rolling in
[11:56] <Upu> Will have another look this aft
[11:57] <Upu> rain radar is clear
[11:57] <Upu> technically too windy too
[11:57] <LeoBodnar> Should be Ok in the next few hours: http://www.sat24.com/
[11:58] <Upu> but generally I ignore the wind
[11:58] <LeoBodnar> yeah wind is more of a problem
[11:58] <LeoBodnar> I don't like it when it batters the foil
[11:58] <Upu> no
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[12:04] <WillTablet> Sorry eroomde my mum made me get up
[12:04] <Upu> wb
[12:06] <WillTablet> eroomde: okay then. So you can convey a whole load of information like that? But surely I already need data in your brain to be able to tell what you meanr
[12:07] <eroomde> WillTablet: translate my message
[12:07] <qyx_> LeoBodnar: btw what is the weight of your pico balloon? excluding h/he and payload
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[12:08] <WillTablet> Hello Willdude123 you are talking to eroomde in internet relay chat
[12:08] <eroomde> WillTablet: exactly
[12:09] <WillTablet> Or on
[12:09] <WillTablet> I can't be sure
[12:09] <eroomde> and yes, your intuition is right
[12:09] <eroomde> the decoder needs a 'model' of the compressor, but forget that for now, let's carry on with this message line of reasoning
[12:09] <eroomde> so i've sent you a message which you've decoded successfully (if not perfectly, with a very high degree of probability of it being right, be it in or on)
[12:10] <eroomde> however i used less data to send it to you than was in the source message
[12:10] <eroomde> but you still got the message
[12:10] <eroomde> what this shows is that written english has 'redundancy'
[12:10] <LeoBodnar> qyx_: standard Qualatex 36" balloon weighs 37g
[12:10] <eroomde> i.e. it sends more data than is needed to convey the information
[12:10] <eroomde> that means it can be compressed
[12:11] <WillTablet> Right
[12:11] <eroomde> and it's exactly that principle - that a lot of data has reduncacy - that means compressors work
[12:11] <eroomde> so there's a differentce between the concept of an amount of data, and the information that the data contains
[12:12] <WillTablet> So compressors work by compacting data into smaller chunks that aren't 100% likely to be readable?
[12:13] <eroomde> some compressors are 'lossy' but have a very high (but not perfect) chance of decoding the original message
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[12:14] <eroomde> other compressors are perfect but they can't compress all possible sources. so for lossless compressors, they'll compress some kinds of data but other kinds of data will actually be bigger after being run through the compressor
[12:14] <eroomde> but the latter kind are less interesting (but more common eg it's what gzip uses)
[12:14] <WillTablet> But I don't really get how that would work with binary data? Because how would the compressor know if any given bit is likely to be 0 or 1
[12:14] <eroomde> but something like jpeg is a lossy compressor
[12:14] <eroomde> WillTablet: consider the following bit on binary data
[12:15] <WillTablet> Mhm
[12:15] <eroomde> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
[12:15] <WillTablet> Yup
[12:15] <eroomde> i could just say it's 50x1, then a 1
[12:15] <eroomde> or consider a picture that is say 64,64 black pixels
[12:16] <eroomde> you could encode every single pixel with RGB
[12:16] <eroomde> (0,0,0),(0,0,0).........(0,0,0)
[12:16] <eroomde> and that would be a big file
[12:16] <WillTablet> Right
[12:16] <eroomde> or you could just say it's 64x64 of (0,0,0)
[12:17] <WillTablet> Makes sensr
[12:17] <eroomde> now, in a more general sense there are ways, depending on the kind of information you're compressing, of breaking the source down into ways that can be compressed
[12:18] <WillTablet> Mhm
[12:19] <eroomde> so if it's text, english text, we expect to see the letter 'e' a lot
[12:19] <eroomde> because it's the most common letter
[12:19] <WillTablet> Yup
[12:19] <eroomde> in binary, ascii, e is 8 bits
[12:20] <bertrik> what specific items are you considering to compress?
[12:20] <eroomde> can't remember exactly that it is, say it's just 01001010
[12:20] <WillTablet> Mhm
[12:21] <eroomde> well, if we seeing that sequence of 8 bits the most in our source data, why not, with our compressure, make a shorter 'key' for it, that the decoder needs to know to expand back to that?
[12:21] <eroomde> eg 01, say
[12:22] <WillTablet> Like "1 at the 1st, 4th and 6th location and 0 at the zeroth location etc?
[12:22] <eroomde> so every time the decoder or the compressed message sees a 01, it looks it up and sees that it needs to expand that back to 01001010
[12:22] <eroomde> WillTablet: sort of yes
[12:22] <WillTablet> Right
[12:22] <eroomde> and for letters you hardly every see like x or z, you could use a much longer string
[12:23] <WillTablet> Right
[12:23] <eroomde> that's a lossless compression i'm describing here
[12:23] <eroomde> so for all the ones you make shorter, others will have to be longer
[12:23] <WillTablet> Yup
[12:23] <eroomde> it's like a glove full of water, you squeeze one finger, another finger will grow
[12:23] <WillTablet> Mhm
[12:24] <eroomde> but if you pick the most common symbols to get the shorter keys, then on average it's likely that the compressed file will be smaller than the source file
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[12:24] <eroomde> however, you'd be stuffed if you wanted to compress a file full of 'z's, it'd likely be larger than the source file
[12:24] <eroomde> but that chances are, that won't happen, because we've designed our compressure using a model of the english language
[12:24] <eroomde> and as a result it will 'probably' compress and english language source
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[12:25] <WillTablet> Mhm
[12:25] <eroomde> with pictures, there are other more mathematical ways of representing pictures in terms of frequencies, and then we use the same kind of shoter/longer keys to encode the most likely/less likely frequencies
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[12:26] <eroomde> btw this concept of giving shorter keys to the most common source-symbols is called a 'huffman code'
[12:26] <eroomde> lots of things use it, like jpeg
[12:26] <fsphil> huffman codes are great
[12:26] <WillTablet> Also what exactly is a reed Solomon code?
[12:26] <daveake> "huff" to his friends, no doubt
[12:26] <fsphil> huffdaddy
[12:26] <WillTablet> We did qr codes in it
[12:26] <eroomde> WillTablet: hah
[12:26] <eroomde> ok
[12:26] <bertrik> don't hassle the huff
[12:26] <eroomde> can we save this for another time?
[12:27] <eroomde> i can give you the low down on error correction
[12:27] <eroomde> oh infact
[12:27] <eroomde> much better idea
[12:27] <fsphil> yes I'd like someone to explain RS codes to me too :)
[12:27] <WillTablet> fsphil: you wrote a format with them you should know
[12:28] <fsphil> I didn't write the RS bit
[12:28] <eroomde> WillTablet: http://videolectures.net/mackay_course_01/
[12:28] <eroomde> watch this
[12:28] <eroomde> reed-solomon is a kind of error correction code
[12:28] <eroomde> this video will explain in a really great way what an error correction code is, and why some are better than others
[12:28] <WillTablet> Wilco
[12:28] <eroomde> and ifnormation theory in general
[12:28] <eroomde> compression, error correction, and cryptography are really all the same thing
[12:29] <eroomde> anyway, i need to go now
[12:29] <eroomde> watch the vid, it's good
[12:29] <eroomde> very good
[12:29] <WillTablet> Goodbye and thanks eroomde
[12:29] <eroomde> np
[12:29] <WillTablet> But I'm talking to online strangers is not a good argument against having to get up :-)
[12:31] <mfa298> WillTablet: if you wanted to see the impact of different types of compression, if you ripped a track from a CD (assuming you have some) as a WAV file that would be uncompressed data (and quite large). You could then try converting that wav file into other formats and see the impact.
[12:32] <mfa298> Things to try might be zip it (general purpose compression), convert to FLAC (lossless audio compression) and various bitrates of MP3 (lossy compression).
[12:33] <mfa298> what you should find is that a low bitrate MP3 gives the smallest filesize, but there will be some loss in quality. However you might not notice that unless you go to something like 64/96kbps mp3.
[12:34] <fsphil> annoyingly once you know the sounds of high compress you start hearing them everywhere
[12:34] <mfa298> you could also try converting them back to a wav file - In theory the zipped and flac files should be able to give you the original wav file back. MP3 wont be able to
[12:34] <fsphil> ruined DAB radio for me
[12:36] <mattbrejza> DAB is mp2 which doesnt help either :P
[12:41] <fsphil> nope, def not
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[12:42] <fsphil> easier to make a decoder though :)
[12:42] <mattbrejza> well a mp3 or aac decoder is common place these days
[12:42] <mattbrejza> the ofdm is the harder bit
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[12:49] <Upu_M0UPU> pava going up in 1
[12:50] <fsphil> ooh good luck
[12:51] <Upu_M0UPU> very windy launch
[12:51] <Upu_M0UPU> had to just let it go before it tore
[12:51] <WillDuckworth> excellent
[12:52] <WillDuckworth> good luck
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[12:53] <Upu_M0UPU> not doing the going up thing :/
[12:53] <Upu_M0UPU> oh it is now
[12:54] <Upu_M0UPU> can see it glinting in the sun
[12:54] <Upu_M0UPU> ok driving home brb
[12:56] <mfa298> you can tell it's been a while since anyone has flown a balloon in the UK, you can count the UK recievers on your fingers (without resorting to binary)
[12:57] <cm13g09> mfa298: lol
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[12:58] <cm13g09> afternoon chrisstubbs
[12:58] <chrisstubbs> howdy
[12:59] <cm13g09> how goes?
[13:01] <WillDuckworth> what's the freq for pava?
[13:02] <x-f> 434.498
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[13:06] <bertrik> oh wow, ascent looks a bit wobbly
[13:06] <LeoBodnar> Give it some time, it's a very turbulent layer
[13:08] <qyx_> wut, chasing car in south africa?
[13:08] <chrisstubbs> been dealing with sky broadband all morning, could be better
[13:08] <chrisstubbs> ohai pava
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[13:10] <Upu> 1g of neck lift
[13:10] <Upu> balloon looked deflated tbh
[13:10] <Upu> however up is up
[13:11] <Upu> however you go about it
[13:11] <WillDuckworth> will be interesting to see what happens
[13:11] <LeoBodnar> Give it a chance Upu, it'll be fine
[13:11] <Upu> its THOR16 btw
[13:11] <Upu> don't get confused with autoconfig
[13:11] <Upu> amazing signal from here for some reason
[13:11] <daveake> Oh, we were going to leave it to you to track :p
[13:12] <Upu> might need too if it floats at 500m
[13:13] <LeoBodnar> There is a lot of vertical air movement today
[13:13] <LeoBodnar> Dare I say "thermals"
[13:13] <Upu> might be 1.5g of lilft
[13:13] <Upu> with a 12.5g payload
[13:14] <Upu> antenna is almost ideal 1/4 wave
[13:14] <LeoBodnar> guitar string?
[13:14] <Upu> yep
[13:14] <qyx_> lol
[13:15] <Upu> launch was too windy
[13:15] <Upu> right getting some lunch
[13:15] <Upu> feel free to track it :)
[13:16] <LeoBodnar> coolio
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[13:17] <bertrik> it's floating towards the netherlands, nice, will track it when it gets near enough
[13:17] <mfa298> you launched it in the wrong place if you want us down South to track it.
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[13:32] <LeoBodnar> Upu are you sleeping MAX7?
[13:34] Delphinus (3e07b628@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[13:36] <Upu> no 1 sec cyclic
[13:36] <Upu> its got 28 hours run time under best circumstances
[13:36] <Upu> holy inversion layer batman
[13:37] <Upu> check that ascent rate graph
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[13:38] <Upu> this is a test of the radio and the Thor code
[13:38] kpiman (56815a6f@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[13:38] <Upu> oh hi kpiman
[13:38] <Upu> you should be able to get this one :)
[13:39] <Upu> THOR16 434.498
[13:40] <kpiman> yes, got it
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> It's not inversion, just lots of turbulence
[13:40] <Upu> ok
[13:41] <kpiman> very strong has you would expect
[13:41] <Upu> you're not on the map kpiman
[13:41] <Upu> over your house isn't it ?
[13:41] <Laurenceb_> nice oscillation :D
[13:42] <Upu> making some nice curves :)
[13:45] <YO9ICT> Upu : what means status 32 ?
[13:45] <Upu> I'll check in a sec
[13:45] <Upu> probably GPS not reporting a lock but you get that with power saving occasionally
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> Battery seems fine
[13:46] <Upu> yup
[13:46] <G8KNN> lovely stable signal too
[13:46] <Upu> GPS not locked = 32
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[13:46] <Upu> TCXO G8KNN
[13:47] <G8KNN> ah OK
[13:47] <daveake> 2B or not 2B?
[13:47] <Upu> I left my radio on frequency at home and came back and it was decoding fine
[13:47] <Upu> home brew radio this one
[13:47] <daveake> ok
[13:47] <Upu> well SI4060
[13:47] <G8KNN> Congrats, seems to be working well
[13:47] <Upu> thanks
[13:47] <Upu> strength ok ?
[13:48] <kpiman> Doh, wifi helps
[13:48] <G8KNN> yes, very good. Was decoding at -0.1deg elev :)
[13:48] <Upu> over your house kpiman :)
[13:49] <Upu> For the record just like to say thanks to arko & fsphil for this one
[13:50] <Upu> had a good ground speed too
[13:52] <mclane> is there a websdr close to pava? I would like to see thor16 in fldigi
[13:52] <Upu> it just looks like Domino
[13:53] <mclane> ok
[13:54] g4dpz_dave (522f7ade@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[13:55] <kpiman> very close now, can't see it :)
[13:56] <g4dpz_dave> pava frequncy and setting please
[13:57] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[13:58] <G8KNN> 434.498 select pava in dl-fldigi and then select Opmode of Thor16
[13:58] <g4dpz_dave> thanks
[14:02] <aadamson> from the dumb us guy category, first congrats all and second, is there any web info on thor16, just curious what you are using... :)
[14:03] <Upu> http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/MFSK/
[14:03] <aadamson> thanks!
[14:05] <Upu> its like an error corrected DominoEX
[14:07] <aadamson> yep, indeed... what hardware is the flight vehicle using, I think I saw an SI4060 RF chip
[14:08] Geoff-G8DHE_ (~Geoff-G8D@geoffg8dhe.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[14:08] <Upu> give me a min
[14:09] <aadamson> no hurry whatsoever, I know you are *busy* :)
[14:10] <Upu> just trying to get some images uploaded
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[14:10] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[14:10] <Upu> http://imgur.com/a/j4wE6
[14:10] <Upu> its an Atmega328p
[14:10] <mclane> I can hear it via southhampton web sdr; but no decode
[14:10] <Upu> running @ 1.8V 2Mhz
[14:11] <mclane> do I need to set something special in THOR16?
[14:11] <Upu> with ublox max7c and an SI4060 RF chip with a TCXO
[14:11] <Upu> just configure for THOR16 mode
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[14:13] <Upu> 90mph
[14:13] <Upu> dem winds
[14:13] <aadamson> Upu, excellent work, very nice hardware, I'm just messing with the 4463 now and have a little board up on 144.390 with vcxo etc, can also do rtty if wanted :)... Nice design, very compact!
[14:13] <Upu> thanks
[14:13] <Upu> it can in theory do APRS too
[14:13] <Upu> but thats not coded yet but LeoBodnar has done it with the same hardware
[14:14] <aadamson> using vxco or tcxo?
[14:14] <Upu> TCXO
[14:14] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[14:14] <aadamson> my version you modulate the vcxo to make fm
[14:14] <Upu> yeah I think thats probably a better way of doing it
[14:14] <Upu> maybe in R10 of my board :)
[14:15] <aadamson> thats crazy running the 328 at 2mhz and 1.8v :)... very good battery life doing that
[14:15] <Upu> well its a 16Mhz crystal
[14:15] <Upu> with the DIV/8 fuse set
[14:15] <aadamson> ah ok, clocked at 16, executing at 2 that make sense..
[14:15] <Upu> as you can't get 2Mhz crystals in very small form factors
[14:15] <Upu> not that I've found anyway
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[14:17] <aadamson> well, congrats and excellent work, I'll go back in the wood work and follow the *balloon* (wanted to say bouncing ball, but too unappropriate) :)...
[14:17] <Upu> I'm sure thats what google translate will make of Alain's french site translated back into english
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[14:21] Nick change: Upu -> Upu_M0UPU
[14:22] <LeoBodnar> Le English balls
[14:25] <Upu_M0UPU> Daves pink balls are still my favourite
[14:25] Nick change: number10 -> number10_M0MDB
[14:25] <tweetBot> @AnthonyStirk: Foil balloon $$PAVA TX 434.498Mhz USB THOR16 in the air over Northern UK trackers welcome http://t.co/o1me5yKvJ7 #ukhas #hamr
[14:26] <Upu_M0UPU> mind you at the speed its going not going to be in the UK for long
[14:27] <Upu_M0UPU> handing over to the Netherlands in 30 mins I suspect
[14:28] <Upu_M0UPU> afk a few
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[14:33] <g0azs> erm... should AFC work when tracking THR for PAVA?
[14:33] <g0azs> Mine seems to be greyed out
[14:33] <g0azs> *THOR
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[14:35] <maxell> Good morning peeps.
[14:35] Nick change: maxell -> Maxell
[14:36] <LeoBodnar> good signal Upu_M0UPU
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[14:38] Nick change: g0azs_ -> g0azs
[14:38] <g0azs> ...any thoughts as to whether AFC should be working in fl-digi for THOR?
[14:39] <Upu_M0UPU> no but you won't need it
[14:39] <Upu_M0UPU> I need to run out back in 15
[14:39] <g0azs> OK...but I might until my radio warms up and stops drifting :-)
[14:39] <g0azs> I have no TCXO :-(
[14:43] <G8APZ> Upu_M0UPU there is a slight drift HF - I need to retune every few minutes
[14:43] <G8APZ> cursor that is.. not the radio!
[14:44] <G0HDI_> What frequency now please
[14:44] <g0azs> OK maybe its not my radio then... I have the same.
[14:44] <g0azs> I have 434.499404 on the dial
[14:45] <g0azs> With signal at 1500 hz of course
[14:45] <g0azs> Now 434.499420
[14:46] <LeoBodnar> I can give a reading with a few Hz accuracy if anybody is interested
[14:46] <Steve_G0TDJ> 'Arternoon Guys :-)
[14:46] <g0azs> Why not. .then I can see how far out my dial is :-)
[14:46] <Steve_G0TDJ> Afternoon even.... typing hasn't improved any
[14:47] <LeoBodnar> Modem centre now is at 434,999,510
[14:47] <G0HDI_> Tnx, got a geen now.
[14:47] <g0azs> resolution new my years is typing touch learn to
[14:48] <eroomde> me too g0azs
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[14:48] <eroomde> i always catch myself looking though
[14:48] <LeoBodnar> So 434,499,510 corrected
[14:49] <G0HDI_> 434.4992 here at 1500
[14:49] <Steve_G0TDJ> No sig here - Too low for me sadly
[14:50] <g0azs> OK thanks Leo. So I'm about 70 hz out when you posted that reading
[14:50] <g0azs> It IS drifting HF slightly isn't it?
[14:51] <bertrik> just got first green decode of PAVA here at revspace, the hague, netherlands
[14:51] <LeoBodnar> Yes, a little bit
[14:51] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
[14:51] <DL1SGP> hi folks
[14:51] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi Felix :-)
[14:51] <LeoBodnar> yo gents
[14:51] <Maxell> herrow
[14:52] <Steve_G0TDJ> Sorry I've been quiet, been a tocch unwell. On the mend now hopefully
[14:53] <DL1SGP> ah hope you gonna be all well again soon Steve
[14:53] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cheers Felix
[14:53] Action: DL1SGP waits PAVA :D
[14:53] <LeoBodnar> get well soon Steve
[14:54] <Steve_G0TDJ> Thanks Leo
[14:54] <Steve_G0TDJ> I think I'll miss UPUs balloon. Needs to be up a ways before I can 'see' it
[14:55] <eroomde> 1) columbo is on. cool. 2) i'm making a chicken pie and it first involves poaching the whole chicken in wine and veg and herbs and it smells nice, which is cool. 3) there's a claim that an analytical solution to the navier stokes equation has been found, which would be ultra-cool if it passes the super-high barrier of scrutiny
[14:55] <G8APZ> Steve_G0TDJ are you in Kent?
[14:55] <eroomde> a thousand numberical CFD careers killed in one fell swoop
[14:55] <LeoBodnar> wow that's biggie
[14:55] <Steve_G0TDJ> Roger G8APZ North Kent, between Bexleyheath and Dartford
[14:55] <LeoBodnar> #3
[14:55] <G8APZ> I'm on the ridge at Brentwood... good signal here
[14:56] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: yeah!
[14:56] <Steve_G0TDJ> Nice position G8a
[14:56] <Steve_G0TDJ> G8APZ:
[14:56] <LeoBodnar> whoddunit ?
[14:56] <DL1SGP> no signal here yet :)
[14:56] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hopefully you will later Felix
[14:57] <DL1SGP> yeah we gonna see else there is plenty of other things to have fun with
[14:57] <Upu_M0UPU> woah did it float
[14:57] <eroomde> http://www.inform.kz/eng/article/2619922
[14:57] <Steve_G0TDJ> Looking good Anthony
[14:58] <eroomde> but obviously the huge caveat is that we should wait for peer review, and this might have done the rounds not meritocratically
[14:59] <LeoBodnar> It can take years
[14:59] <eroomde> yeah
[15:00] <G8APZ> What bloody use is an equation that nobody can solve!!!
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[15:00] <eroomde> tongue in cheek perhaps but it's one of the most useful equations in all of engineering
[15:00] <Maxell> signal suddenly lost after 4 packets here @ revspace
[15:01] <eroomde> you can solve it numberically
[15:01] <eroomde> numerically*
[15:02] <jonsowman> and it's fine if the flow is incompressible :p
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> G8APZ: Come up with a nice solution to navier-stokes, and I'll give you a shiny fiver.
[15:03] <Maxell> Full signal back!
[15:03] <Maxell> and green
[15:04] <Maxell> wow
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: That is alas an extraordinarily high barrier. Link?
[15:04] <G8APZ> SpeedEvil That's generous of you! I'll try in my next life!
[15:04] <LeoBodnar> Is THOR error-corrected on character level?
[15:05] <eroomde> http://25.media.tumblr.com/6ec82a02d525d1af460c19398deb9f43/tumblr_mgo3bjL8hD1qhxob3o1_500.gif
[15:06] <LeoBodnar> SpeedEvil: http://www.inform.kz/eng/article/2619922
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: I need to study maths more.
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: That doesn't at first glance looklike a putative solution to any of the problems with navier-stokes.
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: ah
[15:07] <LeoBodnar> I wonder if it increases speed of CFD solution by many factors of magnitude
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: Does this make the guy that solved it number four professor in all of khazakhstan?
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yeah - or is it one of the 'well - yes - there is a closed form solution, and I proved it, and it's o(10^800)'
[15:08] <LeoBodnar> and maybe even realtime
[15:10] <LeoBodnar> Has he found a solution or proved one exists?
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> im sure we solved navier-stokes in my undergrad course
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> (C) Existence and smoothness of the NavierStokes solutions in \mathbb{T}^3
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> Let \mathbf{f}(x,t)\equiv 0. For any initial condition \mathbf{v}_0(x) satisfying the above hypotheses there exist smooth and globally defined solutions to the NavierStokes equations, i.e. there is a velocity vector \mathbf{v}(x,t) and a pressure p(x,t) satisfying conditions 3 and 4 above.
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> (D) Breakdown of the NavierStokes solutions in \mathbb{T}^3
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> There exists an initial condition \mathbf{v}_0(x) and an external force \mathbf{f}(x,t) such that there exists no solutions \mathbf{v}(x,t) and p(x,t) satisfying conditions 3 and 4 above.
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> for a really simple case :P
[15:11] <DL1SGP> The solution is 42
[15:11] <LeoBodnar> probably for incompressible flow Laurenceb_
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> trivial solutions exist
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> Could be what's being meant
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> The milenium prize is mentioned
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navier%E2%80%93Stokes_existence_and_smoothness#The_Millennium_Prize_conjectures_in_the_whole_space
[15:12] Action: SpeedEvil is depressed in that he has _no_ clue what such a solution would do.
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[15:13] <LeoBodnar> Could one have found one by exhaustive search of all possible LaTeX symbols combinations limited to an 80 page document?
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> hah
[15:13] <eroomde> i barely see the latex
[15:13] <eroomde> so used to writing it i just see the maths
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> As my limited understanding of the above - could the result be as little as finding solution spaces for which there is no solution?
[15:15] <eroomde> it's basically finding a solution in a single step
[15:15] <eroomde> analytically, rather than numerically
[15:16] <eroomde> i can find the 10th fibonacci number numberically
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[15:16] <eroomde> def fib(n): n if n<2 else fib(n-1) + fib(n-2)
[15:16] <eroomde> or i can do it analytically
[15:17] <eroomde> (a^n - (-a)^-n)/sqrt(5)
[15:17] <eroomde> where a is the golden ratio
[15:18] <eroomde> the conjecture is that you can't do the second thing (analytical) for navier stokes
[15:18] <eroomde> in a general way
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[15:21] <eroomde> at least that's my understanding, i'm not a mathematician
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[15:29] <aadamson> all quick question on spacenear.us is the green inner circle the visual footprint and the blue larger the rf footprint?
[15:30] <Steve_G0TDJ> aadamson: Blue circle is the 0 degree circle and green is the 5 degree circle
[15:31] <craag> aadamson: blue circle is expected range for good receiver stations (0 degrees) and green is expected range for any station (5 degrees).
[15:31] <eroomde> elevation of balloon relative to a point on the circumference
[15:31] <aadamson> ah... ok makes sense... thanks I was trying to figure out how the green circle could be used to see something that is over 21000 feet in the air :) lol
[15:32] <aadamson> just been following along this morning/afternoon... pretty cool/impressive/etc... looks like it's over the channel currently
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[15:32] <aadamson> is there any way to see a feed of live (or semi live) telemetry?
[15:32] <aadamson> or a websdr site?
[15:32] <chrisstubbs> Hey aadamson
[15:33] <aadamson> chrisstubbs, ya?
[15:33] <chrisstubbs> I could take you a quick recording
[15:33] <Upu_M0UPU> FEC is working well
[15:33] <aadamson> oh, I've heard what is sounds like, was just wanting to see live telem (or semi) was hoping that spacenear.us did that, but only the graph of alt
[15:33] <number10_M0MDB> nice float Upu_M0UPU
[15:34] <craag> aadamson: You might be able to hear it on the websdr, but it's close to the edge of the range.
[15:34] <Upu_M0UPU> yeah first time I've managed to get one of these to float
[15:34] <craag> http://websdr.suws.org.uk/
[15:34] <YO9ICT> I still hear it on WebSDR
[15:34] <Upu_M0UPU> balloon looked empty
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[15:35] <number10_M0MDB> is wasn't looking earlier Upu_M0UPU , what was the ascent rate
[15:35] <craag> Oh yes very audible on the websdr :)
[15:35] <Upu_M0UPU> random number10_M0MDB
[15:35] <chrisstubbs> aadamson, you can also download a telemetry log from habitat if its the data your after
[15:35] <Upu_M0UPU> check the graph
[15:35] <Upu_M0UPU> http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/9f099e7e19c80d01d431ab5c52ffb721#g/batterymv,altitude
[15:35] <aadamson> ok, can someone give me the quick websdr setup please?
[15:35] <Upu_M0UPU> thanks again to x-f for that
[15:35] <chrisstubbs> aadamson, http://habitat.habhub.org/ept/
[15:36] <craag> aadamson: 434.49956 usb on the websdr
[15:36] <number10_M0MDB> hu _ thought you would have had the average on the tip of your tongue
[15:36] <jcoxon> oooo i can see it
[15:36] <Upu_M0UPU> no idea number10_M0MDB it was all over the place
[15:36] <number10_M0MDB> :)
[15:36] <Upu_M0UPU> 1-1.5g of free lift
[15:38] <aadamson> oh yes, very cool on websdr... now I guess I need to find a decoder, what are people using?
[15:39] <Upu_M0UPU> dl-fldigi
[15:39] <aadamson> ah yes... thank!
[15:40] <craag> aadamson: http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:dl-fldigi
[15:40] <aadamson> got it thanks!
[15:40] <chrisstubbs> aadamson, are you by any chance evvgc aadamson? ;)
[15:41] <aadamson> ya found me :)
[15:41] <chrisstubbs> welcome :)
[15:41] <aadamson> hehe thanks!
[15:41] <chrisstubbs> thanks for the tips the other night
[15:41] <aadamson> w7qo in the us by other names too :)
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[15:43] <aadamson> OMG, I've actually able to decode it via websdr... very cool! Thanks to all for the help!
[15:43] <aadamson> that's awesome
[15:45] <Upu_M0UPU> :)
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[15:46] <Upu_M0UPU> FEC or no FEC the horizon always wins
[15:49] <eroomde> unless the sun is shining on your
[15:49] <eroomde> in a very specific sense rather than a general sense
[15:49] <eroomde> on you*
[15:49] <Upu_M0UPU> heading into sunset
[15:50] <eroomde> winter is damned depressing isn;t it
[15:50] <Babs> Hey Upu - is this a foil or a latex?
[15:50] <Upu_M0UPU> foil
[15:50] <eroomde> sunset when it barely feels like the afternoon has started
[15:50] <LeoBodnar> floating! cool Upu_M0UPU
[15:50] <Upu_M0UPU> I know first time for everything
[15:50] <LeoBodnar> lol
[15:50] <Upu_M0UPU> Consider your results peer reviewed
[15:51] <LeoBodnar> hehe
[15:51] <Babs> nice. when i came back after 3 months i couldn't believe how the trackers had advanced and everyone was doing foils
[15:51] <LeoBodnar> MOderation and self-restraint when filling with He
[15:51] <Upu_M0UPU> battery is holding up this time
[15:51] <Babs> going to get another nice heavy camera going up again to restore the status quo
[15:52] <Upu_M0UPU> I thought I'd punched the balloon when launching it as it was very windy and it looked empty
[15:52] <Babs> punched. arf.
[15:52] <Upu_M0UPU> punctured
[15:52] <Upu_M0UPU> hehe
[15:52] <LeoBodnar> pierced
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[15:52] <Upu_M0UPU> torn would be a better description it was getting thrown around
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> or rather pricked
[15:53] <Upu_M0UPU> I just let it go and hope it wouldn't blow into the ground
[15:53] <Babs> what is the duration record up to LeoBodnar. The last one I saw of yours was at the conf.
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> I can't remember tbh
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> 7-8 days?
[15:53] <Upu_M0UPU> this isn't going to beat it
[15:53] <Reb-SM3ULC> DL1SGP: mm, cant see you on the map?
[15:54] <eroomde> i think it was between 1 and two weeks but don't remember either
[15:54] <LeoBodnar> 187 hours
[15:54] <Upu_M0UPU> 100mph ground speed
[15:54] <Babs> amazing. it looks as if there are far more trackers Eastwards too.
[15:54] <LeoBodnar> oh, nice
[15:54] <Reb-SM3ULC> B-11 or B-12 or somthing?
[15:54] <Upu_M0UPU> and sunset is upon us
[15:55] <LeoBodnar> So technically RTW balloon is not going to get into Distance (Great Circle) record table
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[15:56] <aadamson> what was the *predicted* landing site and is it hardware/software determined or just whenever the balloon decides it?
[15:56] <Babs> LeoBodnar - did it come down or just get out of range?
[15:56] <LeoBodnar> Out of range over Turkey
[15:57] <Babs> wow. amazing.
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[15:57] <eroomde> columbo is so good
[15:58] <craag> aadamson: The hope is that this one will float, ie not burst. So it'll keep going at altitude until the batteries run out.
[15:58] <LeoBodnar> Did you finally get a TV?
[15:59] <aadamson> craag, oh, well, that will be awesome, can't wait to see how this all works/turns out..
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[16:00] <Babs> eroomde - you have got sucked into TV. Next thing you know you will be eating beans on toast in front of cash in the attic.
[16:00] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/DSCN2415.JPG - my latest play toy... left is si4463 in a form factor to mate to a pro mini, right is my stm32F303 pro mini drop in :) it's pin/feature/function compat, just at 72mhz and hw floating point with 256k flash
[16:00] <craag> aadamson: Great to hear we've got you hooked :)
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[16:00] <aadamson> I brought the radio board up on arduino first and will port software to the stm later
[16:01] <aadamson> board is 144mhz at the moment and works rather well using modulatef vcxo to make fm
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[16:02] <chrisstubbs> aadamson, babs is your man to talk to regarding HABs and gimbals
[16:02] <Babs> hey aadamson
[16:02] <craag> aadamson: Looks fantastic!
[16:02] <aadamson> hehe hadn't thought about those :)
[16:02] <aadamson> probably too much weight to do gimbal and balloon, but interesting idea
[16:03] <Babs> you can never have too much weight
[16:03] <aadamson> hey Babs - nice to meet you all btw... sorry, I'm just a NOOB at the moment around some of this
[16:03] <Babs> although arko holds the record i think
[16:03] <Babs> aadamson - don't fret, i impressed everyone yesterday by failing to upload a jpeg to imgur
[16:04] <Babs> in public on irc
[16:04] <aadamson> hehe.
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[16:07] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/DSCN2349.JPG - my other pet project... 3 axis gimbal controller - open source, picked it up from prior author who disappeared... somewhere I have an F4 version in picture... dang it
[16:07] <gonzo_> what's the freq for pava?
[16:09] <chrisstubbs> 434.489
[16:09] <chrisstubbs> 434.498
[16:09] <eroomde> adamgreig: nice, those are prwesumably n/p pairs of mosfets?
[16:10] <aadamson> yea both bss123 and n/p fet for control, instead of monolithic drivers we do it all is software
[16:10] <qyx_> i've already seen this design without mosfet drivers
[16:10] <qyx_> probably the old one
[16:10] <eroomde> i've just done a board with a TI chip that just integrates 4 half bridges
[16:10] <aadamson> just wish the stm had one more timer that had built in deadband :)... may look at a different chip with built in control of the high/low side later, would remove 9 pins from the processor if so
[16:11] <qyx_> aadamson: you can emulate it using synchronized timers
[16:11] <aadamson> yeah, it's kinda what we do now
[16:11] <eroomde> my dropbox seems to be dead
[16:12] <eroomde> error 500, something went wrong
[16:12] <qyx_> clouds are breaking
[16:12] <qyx_> end of internets
[16:12] <aadamson> probably the biggest problem with that board is that it uses the tx/rx of usart1 for both fet control and flashing ... SOOOO. if you have LIPO connected and anything connected to the uart1 connector - POOF, there goes 2 fets...
[16:13] <aadamson> btw, yes, DB is having problems, I can't get to my folders online either
[16:13] <aadamson> wow, almost feet dry in mainland EU... very cool... you guys are terribly addicting :)
[16:14] <qyx_> overcurrent protection is priceless someteimes
[16:15] <aadamson> ya, were it my hardware design it would have been different in a bunch of ways... we fixed most of the issues with a board spin, but not all and I *really* didn't want to do a ground up just yet
[16:15] <aadamson> it's in Altium so I had to go remember how to use that piece of software :)
[16:15] <Hoogvlieger> Dropbox is hacked: see: http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/10/dropbox-offline-hacker-group-claims-credit/
[16:16] <qyx_> so when you are reworking the board, pls use proper fet drivers :P
[16:17] <eroomde> half my job with electronics is trying to mitigate against ways of it blowing up or browning out
[16:18] <eroomde> amazing how the board area can double once you add in those 'details'
[16:18] <aadamson> qyx_, now who would you be on rcg? :)... yeah, I'm not sure I'm going there... it's a full time job just trying to bring a new set of firmware up for it... warts and all
[16:18] <qyx_> yep, once i had such feeling i have to do gimbal driver the proper way
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: I am perhaps taking the silly approach for my SMPS design. I am designing a SOA protector for my FETs.
[16:19] <qyx_> much of the board space was capacitors, inductors and other filtering and protection circuits
[16:19] <aadamson> yeah, but I really don't want to use monolithic drivers... probably will do the hc4452's or whatever that part is *if* I do something different...
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> Teh silliness starts with the fact that I'm using a 2GHz capable multiplier to work out the instantaneous power.
[16:19] <qyx_> *were
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[16:21] <aadamson> TC4552 to be specific :)
[16:21] Action: SpeedEvil is astounded there are no SOA protected gate drivers.
[16:22] <aadamson> ok, so I give... how do you make a *floater*, is it type of balloon, amount of lift agent, etc?
[16:22] <qyx_> the exact part number doesnt really mattrer, but driving fets at few tens of kHz directly of mcu output is not a good idea
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: The basic idea is that balloons will ascend till they burst.
[16:23] <aadamson> yeah, that part I get
[16:24] <aadamson> but this one has been at 7000m approx for 1:30 approx
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: Or until the pressure exerted by the envelope is enough to compress the internal gas enough that it floats.
[16:24] <aadamson> I knew there was going to be some *funky* math involved... :)... ok, that make sense..
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> If, for example, it has 10% excess lift - if it rises to where the atmosphere is 10% less dense - the lift is zero.
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> But - the balloon now has to contain an excess pressure of 10% of the outside atmospheric pressure.
[16:25] <aadamson> and you try to calculate that to happen such that the balloon it's at *burst* point hence its ability to float for some time, which I assume it will burst at some point?
[16:25] <uu4jlm_Valery> http://websdr.suws.org.uk/ :)
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> Delta-p is 'constant' for a given envelope.
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> This means that you can - for a given payload in principle compute how much gas you need to add to the balloon to make it float.
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> (within limits)
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> delta-p at burst
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[16:27] <SpeedEvil> Elastic balloons become non-elastic rigid balloons at near burst - which is the other thing that makes this work.
[16:27] <aadamson> and what is the material of this balloon?
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> no idea
[16:30] <fsphil> have you lost it Upu_M0UPU?
[16:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> Lot of slow QSB for me on the signal, suspect its spinning, what balloon is it on ?
[16:36] <G8APZ> Geoff-G8DHE it's now over the horizon for you so that's probably why...
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[16:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its still in range the circles aren't that accurate :-) But the signal is currently at a minimum, just see it in the w/f
[16:38] <fsphil> is it decoding?
[16:38] <Geoff-G8DHE> It was upto 6minutes ago
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[16:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> its getting stronger again now but not decoding yet
[16:39] <Upu_M0UPU> yeah lost it just after 4pm
[16:39] <Upu_M0UPU> -1' elevation
[16:39] <fsphil> not bad
[16:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> which balloon is it Upu ?
[16:40] <Upu_M0UPU> 36" Qualatex
[16:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> Hence the Pava
[16:40] <Upu_M0UPU> yup
[16:40] <Upu_M0UPU> just making a cuppa
[16:40] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> Upu
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: that's a large 'party' balloon
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> aadamson: one of the shiny sort.
[16:41] <eroomde> the technical term
[16:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Like this one http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-10/Pages/7.html
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[16:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> Right its under my local horizon at the moment, south downs now blocking it :-(
[16:45] <Upu> back
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[16:47] <G8APZ> I think I'll lose it soon...
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[16:48] <Upu> edge of the horizon there
[16:48] <G8APZ> Still decoding well at s/n -11
[16:48] <eroomde> it's amazing how mushrooms saute down to nothing
[16:48] <eroomde> they're like all water
[16:49] <Upu> I just make a Key Lime Pie
[16:49] <Upu> which I've managed not to burn this time
[16:49] <jonsowman> spinach is the worst for that
[16:49] <G8APZ> eroomde you must be overcooking them!
[16:50] <eroomde> jonsowman: yes. am doing spinach next
[16:50] <eroomde> G8APZ: i want them dryish
[16:50] <eroomde> they're going in a pie so will reabsrob all the stock
[16:50] <G8APZ> eroomde sounds good!
[16:51] <G8APZ> looks as if I'm the last UK station with decodes....
[16:52] <DutchMillbt> Hi all what's going wrong with the autoconfig
[16:52] <eroomde> all eyes on you
[16:52] <G8APZ> Oh no.. there's GZH
[16:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> THOR isn't one of the auto-confgurable modes in dl-fldigi
[16:54] <aadamson> Ah, what I'd call a *mylar* balloon... thanks all for the info
[16:54] <DutchMillbt> thankz Geoff ..
[16:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Which is why having RSID is nice as it will set the mode and AFC frequency I believe.
[16:56] <G8APZ> oops first bad decode
[16:56] <G8APZ> now a good one again
[16:57] <G8APZ> s/n -13dB
[16:57] <Willdude123> eroomde: can you link me to that lecture again? My desktop client wasn't in the channel at the time
[16:59] <eroomde> sure
[16:59] <eroomde> 1 sec
[16:59] <eroomde> http://videolectures.net/mackay_course_01/
[17:00] <eroomde> don't worry if you can't quite keep up with all of the maths (it's degree level, tho do ask questions) but it's more the point about redundancy and how to add it in a clever way to maximise the data rate
[17:01] Nick change: number10_M0MDB -> number10
[17:02] <G8APZ> Final good decode was block 875 at 17:00:26 at -15dB s/n
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[17:04] <Willdude123> eroomde: thx and sorry again for leaving half way through the convo
[17:04] <LeoBodnar> Going over SP9UOB soon
[17:05] <eroomde> np
[17:05] <eroomde> let me know if you're going to go silent mid-flow
[17:06] <Willdude123> Yeah sorry, my mum sorta forced me to get up yho
[17:06] <Willdude123> This guy one of your lecturers?
[17:08] <Willdude123> I found a great networking course which uses the Tanenbaum book as a textbook.
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[17:33] <eroomde> Willdude123: yep, one of my old lecturers
[17:39] <Upu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/191405_trj001.gif should skirt Southern Poland
[17:39] <Upu> by midnight UTC
[17:45] <Upu> NL1ALX great position
[17:45] <Reb-SM3ULC> eroomde: seem nice course, will have a look at it to revive some zyaps ;)
[17:46] <Maxell> It broke.
[17:46] <Maxell> Signal gone, no one else reporting packets?
[17:46] <Maxell> Oh, very feint now
[17:47] <Maxell> Partial: $$PAVA,te028,17:46:36,50.40572,6.18442,7002,9,1356,32*3E1A
[17:47] <LeoBodnar> Calling Tom
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1297652933/Aluminum_Foil.html - For $300 (less shipping) you can get 5km*1m*.0065mm of aluminium foil.
[17:48] <Upu> data still coming in Maxell
[17:48] <qyx_> but only 50000 ton per month, will it be enough?
[17:49] <happysat> yes $$PAVA,1035,17:48:45,50.37598,6.24248,7045,7,1355,0*60C7
[17:49] <Maxell> Upu: yeah looks like it was gone for a sec
[17:49] <Upu> hi happysat are you RXing it ? If so whats your callsign ?
[17:49] <eroomde> is anyone else not able to access dropbox?
[17:49] <Upu> works for me Ed
[17:50] <LeoBodnar> Why do you need Al foil SpeedEvil ?
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: I was actually looking it up for lining wooden vacuum chambers.
[17:50] <LeoBodnar> Ah, is it airtight?
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> Then I got to thinking of balloons.
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[17:52] <LeoBodnar> Aluminium is not the best foil for balloons
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yes - I was being somewhat silly.
[17:52] <Maxell> SpeedEvil: wow, nice deal. I will order 3!
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> In principle if you could get it inflated, without wrinkles, at altitude, it should work really well.
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> But - that is a whole heap of principle.
[17:53] <LeoBodnar> Wouldn't gold be better?
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> Gold is way, way heavier. Also less cheap.
[17:53] <LeoBodnar> more chic
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> It would be nice from teh fatigue resistance POV
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[17:58] <LeoBodnar> does parallel search take into account Doppler shift of the code frequency or carrier only?
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> It depends on the algorithm.
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> There are chips with ~32000 correlators.
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> These basically spit out I and Q values for 'every' doppler and frequency bin.
[18:01] <Willdude123> Fun times trying to figure out my radio's interface (isn't specified)
[18:01] <LeoBodnar> correlation search usually (from what I have seen) ignores Doppler of the code/PRN
[18:02] <LeoBodnar> chips as in ICs?
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> yes
[18:02] <LeoBodnar> I am using stone age technology
[18:02] <qyx_> correlation search is done in freq domain, isn't it?
[18:02] <qyx_> at least in gps
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> qyx_: not usually.
[18:02] <LeoBodnar> no in time domain
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> qyx_: Laurenceb has been going on about doing in the frequency domain a lot.
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> Which seems quite reasonable from many aspects.
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> As it can let you skip stuff.
[18:03] <eroomde> aquisition is done in the frequency domain for sure
[18:03] <qyx_> some docs i have seen did it in freq domain
[18:03] <LeoBodnar> I am just going through motions
[18:03] <eroomde> i.e. searching the code phase space
[18:03] <LeoBodnar> I am new to all this
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Well - I mean 'not in the frequency domain' - as in there is no explicit FFT step, or other similar step. It may vary the searched for frequency in some way.
[18:04] <eroomde> there is an explicit fft step for aquisition
[18:04] <eroomde> very explicit
[18:04] <eroomde> most ISPs block it
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> In what code?
[18:05] <eroomde> lots of code
[18:05] <eroomde> it's completely batty to not so aquisition in the frequency domain
[18:05] <eroomde> to not do*
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> I'm mostly referring to hardware datasheets I read 4-5 years ago.
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> Which did not mention any FFT whatsoever.
[18:06] <LeoBodnar> at max Doppler shift of 10kHz we have only about 0.0065 worth of chip shift at the end of 1ms long PRN sequence
[18:06] <eroomde> hardware is a different story
[18:07] <eroomde> if you can put 100 things in parallel then you don;t have to do complicated algorithms that make single-threaded computation much faster
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Quite.
[18:07] <Willdude123> Hmm. A port I want to use is registered as being in use. It isn't however. Can I free it up and make whatever device it is pick a different number if I plug it in again
[18:07] <eroomde> yeah, the symbol length changing for PRNs with doppler is ignorable
[18:07] <Willdude123> (this being COM ports
[18:08] <LeoBodnar> so for correlating over 1-2 PRN lengths (1-2msec) one can completely ignore code timing Doppler
[18:08] <eroomde> yes
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: Do you have software drivers for any OS for the radio?
[18:08] <LeoBodnar> but if coherent correlation is done over say 20msec we get 0.13 chips difference
[18:09] <LeoBodnar> whether it is significant or no I can't say
[18:09] <LeoBodnar> Then again whether 10kHz Doppler shift is common I don't know either
[18:09] <Willdude123> SpeedEvil: yah. The radio is on COM 2. The software (COM0COM) seems to think all ports to 11 are in use
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[18:10] <LeoBodnar> But in this case we also have master system clock offset influencing this as well
[18:10] <Willdude123> I basically want COM3 to pass via the program to COM2 and it shows the stuff going thru
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[18:11] <Willdude123> Well, even if it can't read what's going on then I can at least see one side of the communications
[18:11] <LeoBodnar> 10kHz Doppler is equivalent to 6PPM clock shift
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[18:12] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening all
[18:13] <Maxell> morning
[18:16] <Maxell> PE2G: You beat us... 550 pkts vs 531 pkts
[18:16] <PE2G> Maxell: Sorry, wasn't my intention :)
[18:17] <Maxell> \o/
[18:18] <Maxell> DutchMillbt also doing great
[18:18] <Willdude123> Is there such a think as a program that does autobauding?
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[18:27] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
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[18:28] <DL1SGP> Guten Abend Kevin
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> hallo
[18:28] <DL1SGP> sighs looks like no PAVA for me :(
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[18:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: Pava has still a chance to be in my range :-)
[18:30] <DL1SGP> yeah but your range is not my range, but I hope it will get into your range under gentleman sports spirit
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[18:31] <DL1SGP> it should be fine for mclane :)
[18:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: :-))
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[18:38] <Maxell> DutchMillbt: qrv pi2hgl?
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[18:45] <Willdude123> ping daveake
[18:46] <daveake> pung
[18:46] <Willdude123> Dw. Was just going to ask a question about that serial monitor you used but got it working
[18:47] <Willdude123> Trying to automate the process of putting repeaters in to my radio so I can grab a list of all in the southeast and then chuck that on them. FIguring out the protocol
[18:49] <Willdude123> Just have to wok it out bit by bit (double meaning intended
[18:49] <G8APZ> Wasn't expecting another balloon today... What's this icarus one? Loads of trackers from other continents?
[18:49] <DL1SGP> old data G8APZ
[18:49] <daveake> someone playing back a recorded transmission
[18:50] <DL1SGP> it wil vanish if you refresh the map
[18:50] <G8APZ> Ah.. thanks....
[18:50] <qyx_> ou, pava's prediction is going directly above ba/sk
[18:50] <G8APZ> Pava doesn't seem to have many fans!!
[18:51] <DL1SGP> G8APZ: out of my range hene my tower is not on the map :)
[18:51] <G8APZ> That is a pity!
[18:52] <DL1SGP> Happens, quite... often... lately :) last balloon I tracked from here was fsphil's ORION
[18:52] <G8APZ> the track is remarkably straight since launch
[18:53] <DL1SGP> unfortunately, that is true :)
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[18:54] <G8APZ> It's aiming at Heidelberg...!
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[18:56] <G8APZ> nick G8APZ-offline
[18:57] <eroomde> almost
[18:58] <daveake> offtarget
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[19:16] <PE2G> I lost PAVA at 346 km: http://s24.postimg.org/ptd3j6i5h/Screen1300.jpg
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[19:19] <Laurenceb_> any bash experts here?
[19:19] <Laurenceb_> if [ $[ -f gps*.csv ] -eq "0" ]; then
[19:19] <Laurenceb_> why does this give syntax error?
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[19:23] <daveake> Have a look at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6363441/check-if-a-file-exists-with-wildcard-in-shell-script
[19:29] <jcoxon> PAVA is making pretty good progress
[19:37] <Laurenceb_> thanks for the link
[19:37] <Laurenceb_> think i need ! -f
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[20:03] <Willdude123> daveake: how did you figure out the differences in the data sent with the serial monitor?
[20:04] <Willdude123> I need to get two recordings open up at once so I can see what changes when I modify a given setting
[20:05] <daveake> Mk I eyeball
[20:05] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efgoislKd8Q - mentioned a really capable binary editor
[20:05] <SpeedEvil> I forgot the name
[20:06] <Willdude123> daveake: how did you get them both open though?
[20:06] <daveake> Just used a hex editor
[20:08] <Willdude123> Ah right so you exported them ok.
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[20:18] <Willdude123> daveake: can it export them as hex or are you describing the hex editor that comes with it?
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[20:25] <daveake> export as hex
[20:25] <daveake> well
[20:25] <daveake> it exports the binary data as bytes
[20:25] <daveake> the hex editor shows them as hex
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[20:26] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_ I should get a 4110 sampler PCB next week
[20:26] <daveake> I think I did it by selecting then copying to the clipboard, but no doubt it has a save or export function
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[20:27] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: sounds exciting
[20:27] <Willdude123> Which hex editor do you use daveake ?
[20:28] <LeoBodnar> http://www.pcb-pool.com/order_aufruf/BIE52cea5565012c_04.jpg
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> I have deliberately made it a bit wonky
[20:30] <Upu> evening
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> evening Upu
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> is there a SAW filter on the GPS?
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> I have made float most beautiful
[20:31] <LeoBodnar> No, barebones
[20:31] <LeoBodnar> *You
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[20:31] <Upu> it does appear to be floating
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> Fine for testing, in good conditions.
[20:31] <LeoBodnar> Great float Upu
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> might be worth adding a SAW
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> yeah i guess
[20:31] <Willdude123> Is it true that WTA 2006 forbids airband listening?
[20:31] <Upu> I'm quite impressed and its got some quite impressive speed
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> I want to see if cutting corners is punishable offence
[20:32] <Upu> needs more German listeners though
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> heh
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> did icarus die?
[20:32] <Upu> Icarus was a replay
[20:32] <Willdude123> Found this http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/36/section/48
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> flew too high?
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> ah
[20:32] <Willdude123> Seems it is
[20:32] <Upu> I'm going to get a Caol Ila to celebrate
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> wax
[20:32] <Willdude123> But would that not make it illegal to listen to amateur communications too??
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> what micro is that?
[20:33] <LeoBodnar> I am glad it went well and you resisted overfilling
[20:33] <daveake> yeah musn't overfill :p
[20:33] <LeoBodnar> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/39969b.pdf
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> ah, PIC
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> it has a MIckey Mouse GPU
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> indeed Dave :D
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> looks like ChromART on stm32
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[20:37] <LeoBodnar> It is very useful for block transfers in RAM
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> also has a decompressor
[20:37] <Upu> so whats the PCB for LeoBodnar ?
[20:37] <Upu> USB to something GPS
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> software GPS
[20:37] <Upu> oh interesting
[20:37] <Upu> like the one Ed did ?
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> or maybe just a sampler
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[20:38] <daveake> LeoBodnar, You'll be pleased to hear that I bought the bits to make a much lighter and more flexible H2 filler
[20:38] <Upu> yay daveake
[20:38] <Laurenceb_> are there FFT libraries from microchip?
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> cool, I want to do it agin
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> -drama
[20:38] <Upu> where's McClane when you need him
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> that's not a command line switch
[20:39] <LeoBodnar> yes there are
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2P1_JZYnVc http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2MP-USB-digital-microscope-loupe-magnifier-webcam-endoscope-with-Metal-stand-UK-/191001311232?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Equipment_ET&hash=item2c7890b800
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[20:42] <Willdude123> It seems incredibly orwellian to limit what people can and cannot listen in to
[20:42] <LeoBodnar> I might use dsPIC33 when done the basics but at the moment I need max RAM and ROM
[20:42] <Willdude123> I don't get that.
[20:42] <Willdude123> Have they ever actually prosecuted someone for it?
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> Would it be easier to acquire 2msec of samples every 5 minutes, find correlations and send delays for the best 8-10 sats
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> then data crunch on the ground and feed to snus?
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> solving for position is easy
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> might as well do it onboard
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[20:45] <Laurenceb_> FFT is the hard part
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> If data is cheap, sending the several K of sample can be cheap.
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> But several K of data isn't cheap, in this case.
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> knowing PRN phase relationship among all visible sats *might* be enough for figuring out the position given known sats data (received on the ground)
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> and strict trajectory prediction
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> I am trying to dream up the cheapest (in power sense) distributed GPS solution
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> What do you mean by distributed?
[20:49] <LeoBodnar> processing and sat data reception on the ground
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure that's ever going to be lowest power.
[20:49] <LeoBodnar> Using GPS or in general?
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> You can do all sorts of fun optimisations by actually knowing stuff about the satellite signal.
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> GPS specifically.
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> You can re-broadcast downconverted GPS signal
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> For example, if you know the satellite geometry, you can sample two bits at once - in a 2ms sample.
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> (of the nav message)
[20:51] <LeoBodnar> indeed
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> Simply by differences in range.
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> its really not so hard
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> 1 or 2ms of data, FFT
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> yup.
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> then find the PRN phases
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> then you can solve for position
[20:51] <Upu> DG2MAW receiving yay
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> My figures for absolute complete cold lock were quite insane that I came up with.
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> It's of the order of tens of milliseconds of radio.
[20:52] <Upu> Radim is waking up Slovakia
[20:52] <LeoBodnar> If signal is strong you might even correlate for partial PRNs
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> and do all other sorts of heresy
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> I rased the thought of sampling at 1khz. - if you can get a jitter free clock. :)
[20:54] <craag> Upu: You mean calling them all back early from the pub?
[20:54] <Upu> lol
[20:54] <Upu> possibly
[20:54] <DL1SGP> heh
[20:54] <Upu> the have an hour or two to drink up
[20:54] <Upu> its slowed down a bit
[20:54] <Upu> 60mph now
[20:55] <craag> Just when everyone thought Leo was taking a break and we could get some proper drinking done.. :P
[20:55] <DL1SGP> Upu if you have remote access activate teh propeller to make it fly north for a bit please :) just 300km should be fine *joke*
[20:55] <craag> What's the battery life on this one btw?
[20:56] <Upu> 28 hours under room temp
[20:56] <LeoBodnar> will fly over downed B-14 soon http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-14/1.png
[20:56] <DL1SGP> RIP B-14
[20:57] <YO9ICT> Upu, when you expect it to run out of juice ?
[20:57] <SiC> why does no-one put the floaters up at the peak winds of the jetstream?
[20:57] <SiC> surely that would take it for an interesting ride
[20:58] <craag> SiC: Where's that?
[20:58] <LeoBodnar> It's usually associated with sh!t weather below the JS
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[20:58] <SiC> I thought the strongest winds were around the 40k ft mark
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: I got for a prompt lock 800ms of radio time - spread over 6.5 seconds. For a delayed lock - 600ms over 12.5 min or so. That's at the point you don't need to optimise - pretty much. If you're just keeping track - you need about 4ms of signal - for every 80ms of clock drift - or 2 hoursish with a 10ppm clock.
[20:59] <Upu> no idea YO9ICT depends how cold it gets
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> its not possible to get an envelope that will float that high
[20:59] <DL1SGP> there is a hidden FL of ninja goats just below JS entry level
[20:59] <SiC> ah
[20:59] <SiC> too much expansion in the balloon envelope?
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Err - 40000 feet?
[21:00] <aadamson> Upu, I've been following the *ball* all day... very cool... awesome learning experience... and good job!
[21:00] <craag> Well, non-latex envelope
[21:00] <daveake> We've had one floater at 40km
[21:00] <Upu> thx
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> craag: ah
[21:01] <LeoBodnar> SpeedEvil: mind blowing, what the heck is UBLOX et al are doing
[21:02] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: battery voltage looks good at the moment
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: It is a very, very different mindset - and it will not work very well at all in multipathed or environments with dropouts.
[21:02] <LeoBodnar> indeed
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: And - basically - 'I'm driving/walking/running/... is 99.999% f their market.
[21:03] <LeoBodnar> yeah, features bloat as well
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> To the point they are so heavily optimising for 'I have to get the last scrap of signal under these trees' - that they're not thinking of good signal performance.
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> well the 1ms or so PRN only aquisition is used in most smartphones
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> thats what "A-GPS" is about
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> Optimisations for GPSs that must work in a building are really different.
[21:04] <LeoBodnar> acquisition? so they don't need to know the phases on a bit level ?
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> course not
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> just do coarse time aquisition
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[21:05] <Laurenceb_> stick the satellite time in as another variable
[21:06] <LeoBodnar> true
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> There are many, many things that are called A-GPS
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> everything from just uploading an accurate almanac to the phone, to actually generating position on the cell-tower from a sample from the phone.
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[21:21] <Upu> just noticed this, just after I launched looks like it came pretty close to ground before climbing and missing the pylons
[21:21] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/xoZe7U8.jpg
[21:22] <LeoBodnar> You stuck it into a descending pocket of air
[21:23] <Upu> not intentionally!
[21:23] <LeoBodnar> If you want to know how to get it into rising air talk to free flight people
[21:24] <Upu> I think it only cleared the pylons by 10 meters
[21:24] <LeoBodnar> You met Pete before when I came to the first launch at Dave's.
[21:24] <Upu> yes
[21:24] <LeoBodnar> He has two machines that do that
[21:24] <Upu> how ?
[21:24] <LeoBodnar> one is very sensitive deifferential temperature sensor and another is anemometer
[21:24] <Upu> ok
[21:25] <LeoBodnar> positioned upwind and a receiver with paper recorder (like an old ECG printers) at the launch site
[21:26] <LeoBodnar> He eyeballs the charts and makes decision to launch
[21:26] <LeoBodnar> lol
[21:26] <LeoBodnar> the equipment is really nice
[21:26] <Upu> and expensive ?
[21:27] <LeoBodnar> About £500+
[21:27] <Upu> my method is cheaper
[21:27] <Upu> "sh*t this is too windy let go"
[21:28] <LeoBodnar> lol yes
[21:28] <LeoBodnar> I used to do it when I flew free flight models like 30 years ago
[21:28] <Upu> right back later on
[21:29] <Upu> thx for continued tracker
[21:29] <Upu> even though OK1SLA isn't on here
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[21:29] <DL1SGP> heh he might read it in the logs
[21:31] Action: Willdude123 loves reverse engineering protocols
[21:31] <Willdude123> It's so tedious in such a lovely way#
[21:32] Action: Willdude123 changed one setting and found that 3 different bits were diffferent
[21:34] <Willdude123> Well this is more difficult than I thought
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[21:36] <aadamson> Upu, At what point with the battery start into a reset cycle?
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[21:36] <aadamson> or will it just shutdown?
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[21:46] <Upu> aadamson it won't it will just die aroun 850mV
[21:46] <aadamson> ok, and it's still at 1.35v correct?
[21:46] <Upu> yep
[21:47] <aadamson> is that running off a single cell?
[21:47] <Upu> though once it gets to less than 1.2v its got about 30 mins left
[21:47] <Upu> Yes Energizer Lithium AAA
[21:47] <aadamson> ah, very cool and some form of regulator?
[21:47] <Upu> step up
[21:47] <aadamson> to 1.8?
[21:47] <Upu> yep
[21:48] <Willdude123> Wow. American repeaters. I like the whole "This is KQ2H repeating"
[21:48] <aadamson> very nice... I think I found your sources on github is the hardware opensource?
[21:48] <Upu> aadamson http://pastebin.com/iEeJBJyt this is a test run I did
[21:48] <Willdude123> What they don't have in civility they make up for in technology
[21:49] <Upu> I've not uploaded the Eagle designs
[21:49] <aadamson> ah, ok, just curious about the power supply... makes me want to play with the low power st stuff :)... i'm a self admitted st fan/bigot/etc :)
[21:50] <Upu> its an LTC3526
[21:50] <aadamson> that the step up converter
[21:50] <Upu> yep
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[21:50] <aadamson> well as we say over here... "ya done good!" :)
[21:50] <Upu> lol ta
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[21:51] <Upu> not perfect need to test the solar power board next
[21:51] <Upu> nothing is ever perfect :)
[21:51] <aadamson> and I'm assuming that didn't fly this time?
[21:51] <Upu> no
[21:52] <Upu> the board is manufactured with the tracker
[21:52] <Upu> and 2 mezzanine boards, one is a step up, one is a lipo + solar charger
[21:52] <Upu> you pick a mezzanine and solder it on
[21:52] <aadamson> you guys just want to go for a full revolution or 2 don't ya? lol
[21:52] <aadamson> I think I saw those in the pics you posted earlier
[21:52] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/RVsJ6Nc.jpg
[21:53] <Upu> the solar board has a number of issues
[21:53] <Upu> firsly the Lipo and Solar connectors are mislabled
[21:53] <aadamson> that's no fair on a pick and place machine! :)
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[21:53] <Upu> thats not a pick and place machine I did that by hand
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[21:53] <Upu> http://imgur.com/a/bQXrk
[21:54] <aadamson> ah well even better, what's the table - router?
[21:54] <Upu> Stencil-8 peg board
[21:54] <Upu> or a copy of
[21:54] <aadamson> ah, got it...
[21:54] <aadamson> make sense
[21:54] <aadamson> I do all mine by hand with stencil too and a cheap toaster over and reflow controller
[21:54] <Upu> https://www.tindie.com/products/arachnidlabs/pcb-tooling-block-full-grid/
[21:55] <Upu> yeah I got a T962A
[21:55] <Upu> never got on with the toaster and controller
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[21:55] <Upu> the temp sensor just got in the way
[21:55] <aadamson> I've read mixed review about that, yours work ok?
[21:55] <Upu> I love it but yes with lead free it does have some cold zones
[21:56] <Upu> with leaded no issues at all
[21:56] <aadamson> I use only leaded stuff anyway kester easy profile 256
[21:56] <Upu> yeah should have no issues
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[21:56] <aadamson> I wanted to buy one, now you may talk me into it...
[21:56] <Upu> tbh never looked back
[21:56] <aadamson> got to be better than the now so fast ramp on the toaster oven
[21:57] <Upu> well I got one when the temp sensor on the controller some how flipped a PCB over as it was heating sending components everywhere
[21:57] <aadamson> and for $404 on amazon, that's even more tempting
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[21:58] <Upu> evening jcoxon
[21:58] <Upu> yeah combined with the stencil and peg board
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[21:58] <Upu> btw Hackvana are doing stencils now $30
[21:58] <Upu> in metal
[21:58] <jcoxon> Upu, good work!
[21:58] <Upu> going well :)
[21:59] <jcoxon> yes
[21:59] <Upu> just sent OK1SLA thanking him
[21:59] <Upu> Radim is ready as well
[21:59] <Upu> amazing considering how sketchy the launch was
[21:59] <jcoxon> yeah its quite windy
[21:59] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/xoZe7U8.jpg
[22:00] <Upu> after launch
[22:00] <Upu> and I draw your attention to the power lines
[22:01] <jcoxon> oh yes
[22:01] <Upu> must have skimmed that field
[22:04] <Willdude123> Where can I find the UK amateur license schedules?
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[22:06] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/PDFS/HAM%20Radio/amateur-terms.pdf
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[22:09] <LeoBodnar> Willdude123: you should have a copy via your Ofcom access page
[22:10] <LeoBodnar> I think they stipulate that it has to be printed and kept at the station
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[22:14] <Willdude123> LeoBodnar: ah
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[22:16] <Laurenceb_> no receivers?
[22:23] <jcoxon> looks like it
[22:23] <jcoxon> though there are people that should come into range
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[22:28] <YO9ICT> Any SDR in that region ??
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[22:30] <LeoBodnar> not with 434MHz
[22:32] <aadamson> woah, got one just a few seconds ago, new update that is
[22:32] <bertrik> great, it just seems to have gotten an update, from OM1GX
[22:32] <aadamson> :)
[22:36] <Upu> Radim said he'd wake up the Slovak trackers
[22:38] <ak4rp> do you have an estimate of its current ground speed?
[22:38] <Upu> 32.2m/s
[22:38] <Upu> http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/ calculates it
[22:39] <Upu> 70mpg
[22:39] <Upu> 70mph even
[22:39] <ak4rp> indeed
[22:40] <ak4rp> 70mpg is pretty much for 6EUR a gallon in Austria :)
[22:40] <Hoogvlieger> 116 km/u
[22:41] <Upu> A few hours YO9ICT
[22:41] <Upu> I wouldn't stay up :)
[22:42] <YO9ICT> No, I do not stay up
[22:42] <YO9ICT> Making some calculations
[22:42] <Upu> lol ok :)
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[22:46] <Laurenceb_> how can i force a file to a certain size?
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> so i want to fix file to 1MB and dump all data after first 1MB?
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> to 2 dooo
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> erm wut
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> nvm ill use truncate :P
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[22:53] <qyx_> Laurenceb_: tail -c +1048576
[22:54] pete (3e386c4a@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[22:54] <qyx_> will dump all data starting with 1048576 byte
[22:54] Nick change: pete -> Guest15344
[22:56] <Upu> I just noticed you're in Hungary ak4rp
[22:56] <Upu> I'd say < an hour till its in range
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[22:57] <Upu> and its coming right for you
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[22:59] <LeoBodnar> man split
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[23:00] <LeoBodnar> oh, the first 1MB Laurenceb_ ?
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> truncate fixed it
[23:01] <qyx_> now i don't know if dump means print or move to trash
[23:01] <LeoBodnar> man head
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> im trying to recover data from old hard drives :-/
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> reading lots of hex..
[23:02] <qyx_> then dd is your friend
[23:02] <qyx_> and ddrescue
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[23:03] <LeoBodnar> are certain sats opposite on their orbits?
[23:03] <LeoBodnar> I.e. If you see sat X there is no way you can see sat Y?
[23:04] <Reb-SM3ULC> LeoBodnar: iridiums, like?
[23:04] <LeoBodnar> among GPS ones
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[23:04] <daveake> Yes
[23:04] <Reb-SM3ULC> LeoBodnar: they are about 20000 km up
[23:04] <ak4rp> Upu: yes
[23:04] <LeoBodnar> so I can prune the search then
[23:04] <Reb-SM3ULC> LeoBodnar: but yes, some will be in the dark.. :)
[23:05] <daveake> :)
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> ok so i have a huge csv file
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> i want to add a number to the first column
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> any idea how i could do this?
[23:05] <qyx_> nj
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> file is about 16GB
[23:05] <qyx_> nl even
[23:05] <LeoBodnar> awk
[23:05] <Reb-SM3ULC> Laurenceb_: awk
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> ok
[23:05] <Reb-SM3ULC> :)
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> ill read the manual :P
[23:06] <qyx_> ah, add != prepend :)
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> id try matlab or octave but i dont have enough ram
[23:06] <daveake> yeah, awk
[23:06] <Reb-SM3ULC> Laurenceb_: how many columns, fixed?
[23:06] <daveake> Or teeny C prog
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> yes, fixed columns
[23:07] <LeoBodnar> awk '{print NR, $0}'
[23:07] <daveake> If you have 2 hard drives suggest you put the new file on a different drive to the existing one
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[23:07] <daveake> save a bit of head rattling
[23:08] <LeoBodnar> awk '{print NR, $0}' yourfilename
[23:09] <Laurenceb_> right
[23:09] <LeoBodnar> did it work?
[23:09] <Laurenceb_> ok, so the full problem is:
[23:09] <Laurenceb_> from line 69622 to line 276649 i need to add a number to the first column of the csv
[23:10] <Laurenceb_> dunno if thats possible in one step
[23:10] <Laurenceb_> guess i can split and concatenate later
[23:10] <qyx_> do a if (NR ...) { print $1 + 234234, $2, $3 ...}
[23:11] <qyx_> else print ...
[23:11] <LeoBodnar> awk '{if(NR>= 69622 && NR<= 276649) printf NR; print $0}'
[23:11] <LeoBodnar> awk '{if(NR>= 69622 && NR<= 276649) printf NR; print $0}' yourfilename
[23:12] Nick change: Willdude123 -> raspberrypifanfa
[23:12] <LeoBodnar> ah, you mean the 1st column is the number?
[23:12] Nick change: raspberrypifanfa -> Willdude123
[23:13] <Laurenceb_> yes
[23:13] <LeoBodnar> awk '{if(NR>= 69622 && NR<= 276649) $1+=numbertoadd; print $0}' yourfilename
[23:13] <Laurenceb_> does that output to stdout?
[23:13] Nick change: MLow -> MLow_work
[23:13] <MLow_work> i hate work
[23:13] <Laurenceb_> so i need to pipe that to a file?
[23:13] <MLow_work> gets in the way of RL stuff
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[23:13] <MLow_work> Like playing rust
[23:13] <LeoBodnar> awk '{if(NR>= 69622 && NR<= 276649) $1+=numbertoadd; print $0}' yourfilename > outfile
[23:14] <Laurenceb_> got it
[23:14] <LeoBodnar> cool
[23:14] <LeoBodnar> how is it separated?
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[23:15] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[23:15] <Upu> sorry SP9UOB-Tom winds don't seem to want to bring it to Poland
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> comma
[23:16] <Laurenceb_> ok so that works but im losing the rest of the columns
[23:16] <qyx_> i hope you know the basics of programming
[23:16] <Laurenceb_> heh
[23:17] <qyx_> awk has c-like syntax, so try else
[23:17] <qyx_> http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2010/02/awk-conditional-statements/
[23:17] <LeoBodnar> You need to change field separator to comma FS=","
[23:18] <Laurenceb_> aha
[23:18] <Laurenceb_> but now , is swapped for " "
[23:19] <LeoBodnar> OFS=","
[23:19] <LeoBodnar> as well
[23:19] <LeoBodnar> that's for output
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> perfect, thanks
[23:20] <LeoBodnar> what it works?
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> yup
[23:21] <LeoBodnar> hah
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> much nicer than matlab
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> a few seconds
[23:22] <LeoBodnar> lol awk is cool for text files
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> as opposed to 15minutes before i realise just how big the file is
[23:22] <LeoBodnar> that's what it has been designed for
[23:22] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: Modern laptops are no good for HAB tracking... Good bye sound issues! #ukhas #USBSoundCard http://t.co/ko7mGx6fK9
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> some people would have tried excel...
[23:23] <LeoBodnar> sort of text based database
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[23:23] <LeoBodnar> or C++
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[23:29] <Laurenceb_> is PAVA 434mhz?
[23:30] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[23:31] <Upu> yep
[23:31] <Upu> 434.498
[23:31] <Laurenceb_> seem to be getting good reception
[23:31] <Upu> only 100km from where I ditched AVA on an Austrian mountain
[23:31] <Upu> well we woke up the Slovaks
[23:31] <Upu> :)
[23:32] <Laurenceb_> heh
[23:32] <Upu> antenna was an ideal 1/4 wave
[23:32] <Upu> radials bent back
[23:34] <Upu> best thing is can probably just leave the radios going and go to bed
[23:34] <LeoBodnar> nice :D
[23:34] <LeoBodnar> It's probably about -45C there
[23:34] <LeoBodnar> TCXO is only -30C
[23:36] <Laurenceb_> omly :P
[23:36] <LeoBodnar> heh
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[23:37] <Upu> I insulated mine though Leo
[23:37] <Upu> a little
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[23:38] <LeoBodnar> I think it will only save 3-4C
[23:39] Action: SpeedEvil is pondering ordering 2.5m^3 of insulation to insulate the shed.
[23:40] <LeoBodnar> Order a solid block and carve a hide
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kingspan-Ecotherm-Insulation-Board-180mm-/291054211029?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43c42ecfd5
[23:43] <nats`> hey I have a slovak friend who is ham
[23:43] <nats`> :)
[23:43] <nats`> need me to call him ?
[23:43] <Upu> no need to wake him :)
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[23:44] <nats`> oky :)
[23:48] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar I'm using PhilCrump map... there is a place spelt in cyrillics... ?eorpa? What is it ?
[23:49] <G8APZ> it is to the south east of PAVA
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[23:49] <LeoBodnar> can you send the link?
[23:49] <G8APZ> and NE of Sarajevo
[23:49] <G8APZ> http://habmap.philcrump.co.uk/?filter=SD3
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[23:52] <LeoBodnar> Belgrade?
[23:52] <G8APZ> Yes, could be! I usually see it spelled as Beograd!
[23:52] <LeoBodnar> 5>3@04
[23:52] <G8APZ> I don't know the cyryllic alphabet....
[23:53] <LeoBodnar> =Beograd
[23:53] <G8APZ> OK - mystery solved!!
[23:53] <G8APZ> do you have a cyryllic keyboard? !
[23:53] <LeoBodnar> i switched the language
[23:53] <G8APZ> OK
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[23:55] <G8APZ> 5>3@04 C A@?A:>X ;0=3C03C5 
[23:56] <G8APZ> K <>3;8 1K 4065 @073>20@820BL =0 @CAA:><!
[23:57] <G8APZ> Upu - I was impressed with Thor 16 today... very easy decodes down to - 15dB s/n
[23:58] <Upu> glad it worked,I'm pretty chuffed with the hardware
[23:58] <Upu> Thor code is fsphil's
[23:58] <Upu> bolted on to my existing tracker
[23:58] <G8APZ> The decoding was 100% until -15 and when it went, it was sudden... one bad decode and then nil
[23:59] <Upu> it was decoding for me until it hit the horizon despite being very weak
[23:59] <Upu> I'd use it again
[23:59] <G8APZ> I got it beyond the map 0 horizon... but only 20km or so... j
[00:00] --- Sun Jan 12 2014