highaltitude.log.20140107

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[01:12] <heathki_d> who banned me this time and why?
[01:14] Action: SpeedEvil checks.
[01:15] <heathki_d> thanks
[01:15] <heathki_d> I looked back and didn't see anything... I got disconnected and when it reconnected I was banned
[01:15] <heathki_d> maybe I didn't get un-banned correctly?
[01:15] <SpeedEvil> what happens if you /nick heathkid?
[01:16] <heathki_d> I can change to that but I don't think anyone can see my messages
[01:16] <SpeedEvil> Mode #highaltitude +b heathkid*!*@* by hobana.freenode.net
[01:16] <heathki_d> ???
[01:17] <Darkside> heathki_d: you were connecting and disconncting repeatedly
[01:17] <Darkside> it was flooding the channel
[01:17] <SpeedEvil> I would guess what happened was some server still had you as banned while ti was disconnected
[01:17] <SpeedEvil> and it reconnected and banned you
[01:17] <heathki_d> ah
[01:17] <heathki_d> because that was fixed yesterday
[01:17] <Darkside> ah
[01:17] <heathki_d> and I was un-banned
[01:17] <Darkside> yeah, netsplit problems likelyt
[01:17] <heathki_d> now banned again
[01:18] <heathki_d> ...and that was my new android tablet that was having issues... it's not even connected
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> yeah - there have been no recent problems
[01:19] <craag> I think you need someone to issue the unban command again
[01:19] <heathki_d> any ops around?
[01:19] <craag> You'll probably have to wait until tomorrow, most responsible uk peeps are in bed :P
[01:19] <heathki_d> Upu are you still around?
[01:20] <craag> It's 1:20am, I doubt it.
[01:20] <heathki_d> ah
[01:21] <heathki_d> guess it'll have to wait a few hours then. :)
[01:22] <heathki_d> this nick sucks
[01:22] Nick change: heathki_d -> heath_kid
[01:22] <heath_kid> that's a little better
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[01:29] <MLow> lol just had to kick the router harder
[01:34] <MLow> is it working?
[01:34] <MLow> ...so quiet
[01:34] <MLow> (sigh)
[01:35] <arko> MLow: europe is asleep
[01:35] <arko> this is american hour
[01:36] <arko> quick, post american videos while eu sleeps
[01:36] Action: SpeedEvil hits arko with a duck.
[01:36] <arko> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MGQjiBqO8A&t=43
[01:37] <arko> man this song is terrible
[01:37] <MLow> Dope - Die MF Die
[01:39] <MLow> well im in here cause #usahab is dead
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[02:11] <heath_kid> I'm here
[02:12] <heath_kid> I'm there too
[02:12] <heath_kid> need more USA folks in there
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[04:03] <heath_kid> any ops here yet?
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[04:20] <heath_kid> Darkside: aren't you an Op here?
[04:21] <Darkside> nope
[04:22] <heath_kid> <sigh>
[04:23] <heath_kid> you're not UK are you?
[04:27] <Darkside> nope, australia
[04:27] <heath_kid> that's right
[04:28] <heath_kid> now I remember
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[04:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/707560498/Linux_support_gsm_modem_pool_TCP.html?s=p
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[05:30] <heath_kid> daveake: are you an op here?
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[07:37] <Lunar_LanderU> morning
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[07:45] <Lunar_LanderU> morning UpuWork
[07:45] <Lunar_LanderU> do you have time for a short shop question?
[07:45] <DL1SGP> morning Kevin es all
[07:46] <Lunar_LanderU> hi DL1SGP
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[08:05] <UpuWork> morning Lunar_LanderU
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[08:25] <Lunar_LanderU> morning UpuWork
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[08:56] <LeoBodnar> SpeedEvil: reading back. You can possibly lock on any part of the NAV stream that is unique enough to guarantee the detection of few bits of shift
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[09:00] <LeoBodnar> I.e. for argument's sake it's a 010 and it is not alternating between messages. Then you can afford 20msec worth of drift between sampling 60 msec (ignoring sat movements and other shifts)
[09:01] <LeoBodnar> In fact sampling just 40 msec of data if you are hunting for the edge transition of just 01 that is guaranteed to be in the same place in the message
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[09:02] <Lunar_LanderU> ah
[09:02] <Lunar_LanderU> hello :)
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[09:50] <x-f> hi, hello
[09:52] <x-f> i'd like to put two trackers in one payload box and wonder about antennae. would it be possible for them to share the same ground plane and have seperate radiators? or that's a bad idea?
[09:53] <fsphil> morn!
[09:53] Nick change: eroomde_ -> eroomde
[09:53] <fsphil> no reason they couldn't share ground
[09:54] <daveake> x-f I've done that worked fine
[09:54] <daveake> I kept the radiators 1/4 wavelength apart
[09:55] <x-f> that's great, thank you
[09:55] <daveake> this one http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/IMG_6785-768x1024.jpg
[09:56] <daveake> That was 2 x 600 baud SSDV channels
[09:56] <fsphil> http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/castorbay/ -- neatly avoiding the IoM
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[09:56] <gonzo_> it should be doable to split one antenna between two tx modules
[09:57] <fsphil> I don't think I've seen a prediction landing in NI for the past three months
[09:57] <gonzo_> needs a bcouple of bits of 75R coax
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[09:58] <x-f> i would rather not experiment with that just yet, gonzo_ :)
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[10:01] <gonzo_> if it's two separate trackets, then no point adding a single point fail mode
[10:01] <gonzo_> but for dave's traffic splitting for ssdv, could be worth looking at
[10:02] <daveake> Might go for 2x1200 next time
[10:02] <daveake> push those bits out :)
[10:02] <eroomde> the channel is good for 10ish kbps
[10:02] <eroomde> (not with FSK)
[10:02] <gonzo_> ooohhh
[10:02] <eroomde> so so long as the FEC is good, you'll hopefully be ok
[10:03] <x-f> sigh, our will be just 300 baud SSDV for starters, i don't think our dl coverage isn't that good yet
[10:04] <gonzo_> what mode would you need for that sort of rate eroomde?
[10:04] <eroomde> i *reckon*
[10:04] <eroomde> well, i wouldn't necessarily just straight to a 9.6(say) datarate
[10:04] <eroomde> but you'd want lots-QAM
[10:05] <eroomde> 16 or 64
[10:05] <gonzo_> all starts getting involved on the modulation side
[10:05] <eroomde> my gut instinct (which is to say no proper analysis yet) is to do 16-QAM at 9600 baud but with 1/4 FEC
[10:05] <eroomde> for a 2.4kbps data rate
[10:06] <gonzo_> unless a plug and play board were made avail
[10:06] <eroomde> that's doable
[10:06] <eroomde> we have the technology
[10:09] <gonzo_> does QAM need super high linearity PA? Or can the usual crappy class AB work?
[10:09] <eroomde> nope would need linear
[10:10] <gonzo_> that would put extra load on the power budget, but for 10mW that would probbably not be a killer
[10:10] <LeoBodnar> How many power levels does QAM use and is there a pulse shaping?
[10:10] <eroomde> well, you might be able to do something hackery for 4QAM or 16-QAM, but it doesn't make me feel very good in my extremities
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[10:10] <adamgreig> 4QAM wouldn't need linear
[10:10] <gonzo_> and high datarate payloads will probably be bulky anyway
[10:10] <adamgreig> well
[10:10] <adamgreig> I don't think it would :P
[10:10] <adamgreig> but yes for what it's worth a nice linear amp at 10mW isn't gonna break the bank
[10:10] <eroomde> yeah
[10:11] <eroomde> i'm assuming this is not really for picos just trying to tell someone where they are once an hour
[10:11] <eroomde> but more for old-school high-altitude payloads
[10:11] <eroomde> so yep, a linear PA hopefully won't be killer
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[10:11] <eroomde> worth observing that the NTX2 takes 60mW to Tx 10mW
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[10:12] <gonzo_> what would the channel bandwidth be for a 9k6 rate then?
[10:12] <eroomde> 2.4kHz
[10:12] <eroomde> that's the constraint i'm working to
[10:12] <gonzo_> that iis good. I was concerned about the ground segment
[10:12] <eroomde> to stay compatible with HAM receivers
[10:13] <LeoBodnar> "Satellite navigation signals are generated using a process known as DSSS (Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum) modulation" I can't see anything apart from BPSK modulated L1 carrier
[10:13] <LeoBodnar> Or is it just internal BPSK modulator design?
[10:13] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
[10:13] <LeoBodnar> to keep B/W shape in check
[10:13] <eroomde> it's just BPSK
[10:14] <eroomde> but upstream, a 50-baud binary signal is 'spread' to 1.023e6 bits per second
[10:14] <gonzo_> when you look at a strong gps spread signal, you can see the slow bpsk carriers every khz or so (assume that is the chip rate)
[10:15] <LeoBodnar> OK, then it must have been an editor urge to use another acronym
[10:15] <eroomde> by xoring the 50-baud data signal with the pseudorandom sequence comprised of a 1023-bit pseudorandom number produced 1000 times a second
[10:15] <adamgreig> well it is DSSS
[10:15] <LeoBodnar> roger that
[10:15] <adamgreig> that's a way of doing DSSS
[10:16] <eroomde> yeah. the way it's modulated is then another design-choice
[10:16] <eroomde> but sort of a sepeate consideration
[10:16] <eroomde> you can do frequency-hopping spread spectrum too, for example
[10:16] <eroomde> which you could say is 'just' FSK
[10:16] <adamgreig> yea
[10:17] <gonzo_> when you say xoring the 50bd signal, you mean mixing the 50bd bpsk carrier with the ps seq?
[10:17] <LeoBodnar> well phase-frequency has the same duality as everything in quantum mechanics
[10:17] <eroomde> gonzo_: sure, but it is literally xoring, mathematically
[10:18] <eroomde> i drew a slide thusly in my talk
[10:18] <eroomde> number10 i beleive might have taken a photo of it
[10:18] <eroomde> if he could link?
[10:18] <gonzo_> rr, thoughy you meant spreading the 50bd data, then bpsking the lot afterwards
[10:18] <LeoBodnar> in a sense BPSK is XORing as well
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[10:19] <gonzo_> I suppose it is
[10:20] <gonzo_> I'd looked at the poss of using a ring mixer as a simple bpsk modulator. to avoid using an IQ system
[10:20] <LeoBodnar> Depends on what you did as a kid
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[10:20] <eroomde> well, xopring is adding 1 in a number-space called Galois-Field(2), bpsk is multiplying by -1 in a complex space
[10:20] <LeoBodnar> math, physics, electronics or TTL circuits
[10:21] <LeoBodnar> What is was the (2) sidenote?
[10:21] <eroomde> GF(2) is the name of the space
[10:21] <eroomde> i.e. just binary numbers
[10:22] <number10> ah your talk - pics here eroomde http://www.flickr.com/photos/65839734@N04/sets/72157635434184382/
[10:22] <gonzo_> (childhood=analogue elctronics and making explosions)
[10:22] <eroomde> ah, doesn't have the slide i was thinking
[10:22] <eroomde> nvm
[10:22] <gonzo_> actually that went on into adulthood, with the addition of beer and women
[10:23] <number10> shame - still when you do the write up eroomde ;)
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[10:23] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[10:23] <eroomde> number10: yesyes
[10:23] <eroomde> 2014 is the year of pulling my finger out with hobby stuff
[10:24] <eroomde> i was a bit work-obsessed last year
[10:24] <eroomde> other than having an irc window open to stop me focussing
[10:24] <eroomde> :)
[10:24] <number10> :) just joking - I was trying to find a book that describes quadrature modulation for beginiers
[10:26] <LeoBodnar> I don't think there is any. Let me know if you find one
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[10:26] <adamgreig> do you know what IQ modulation is?
[10:27] <adamgreig> (it was in ed's gps talk)
[10:27] <eroomde> quadrature is more a concept
[10:27] <eroomde> a pair of axes that you can use to describe the amplitude and phase of a signal
[10:30] <eroomde> and the thing i was saying about correlating a given signal with a sin wave and a cos wave is really just a mathematical transform that allows you to convert a time-series sinusoid into a dot on those axes
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[10:33] <eroomde> so if i gave you those axes (I and Q) with a dot on them say at (1,1), that means that the dot represents a sinusoid with a phase that is the angle from the I-axis (the horizontal axis) to the line from the origin to (1,1), which would be 45 degrees, and a magnitude which is the length of that line from the origin to (1,1), which ftrom pythagoras is just the sqrt(2)
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[10:33] <eroomde> if i put a dot on at (2,0) that would be a sinusoid with phase 0 degrees and amplitude 2
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[10:33] <eroomde> the 'phase' is just relative to your local oscillator
[10:34] <eroomde> so if i think show you a diagram with some terrifying name like 'constellation diagram', it's actually just dots on those axis, and each dot represents a sequence of bits you want to encode
[10:34] <eroomde> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/QAM16_Demonstration.gif
[10:35] <eroomde> so QAM is just change the phase *and* the amplitude to encode data bits, FSK is just changing the frequency, PSK is just changing the phase
[10:36] <eroomde> so for PSK, because you can only change the phase and not the amplitude, all the dots on the I-Q axes lie on a circle
[10:36] <eroomde> http://tele-information.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/QPSK-constellation-diagram-288x300.png
[10:37] <fsphil> wouldn't FSK be the same?
[10:37] <adamgreig> FSK doesn't really have a constellation
[10:37] <fsphil> true
[10:37] <adamgreig> its constellation isn't static anyway
[10:37] <adamgreig> it has a rotating constellation I guess
[10:37] <eroomde> you can't really represent FSK on an IQ diagram
[10:37] <eroomde> yeah
[10:37] <fsphil> it spins
[10:38] <adamgreig> the speed at which the carrier rotates around the IQ diagram is what matters
[10:38] <adamgreig> but that makes IQ diagrams kinda not that useful :P
[10:38] <eroomde> so the question might be why do you use 16QAM instead of just 16PSK, because qam involves sending some signals at lower power which is surely not so good for SNR
[10:38] <eroomde> well
[10:39] <eroomde> if you're happy with the idea that a sinusoid of a given phase and magnitude can be represented as a dot on that diagram, that's also like saying it's a vector
[10:39] <eroomde> the line between the origin and the dot, is a vector
[10:39] <eroomde> we can also represent noise as a vector
[10:40] <eroomde> and noise gets added to our signal, so it's a line that you draw from the end of the signal vector to some new place - some new dot
[10:40] <eroomde> noise is random, so the size and direction of the noise vector is random
[10:40] <eroomde> but hopefully small compared to the size of the signal vector
[10:41] <fsphil> the 16PSK points are closer than the 16QAM points?
[10:41] <eroomde> so instead of a clear dot for each point, you might get a cloud of dots around it, as with this 16PSK diagram
[10:41] <eroomde> http://www.dsplog.com/db-install/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/16psk_constellation_symbol.png
[10:42] <eroomde> yes fsphil, you have it
[10:42] <fsphil> never thought of it that way
[10:42] <eroomde> so if you start pushing your datarates for more efficiency, the SNR reduces, and the size of the signal vectors compared to the size of the noise vectors starts to reduce
[10:43] <eroomde> and then the noise vecotrs might start to overlap, and it becomes ambiguous as to whether the original signal was from one point on the constellation or another one nearby
[10:43] <eroomde> so QAM maximises the distance between points on the constellation diagram, for a given number of points, vs PSK
[10:43] <LeoBodnar> constellation diagram reminded me for some reason of beautiful analogue piece of equipment called vectorscope
[10:43] <eroomde> thus giving you the most tolerance to noise vectors
[10:43] <LeoBodnar> http://direct.www.tek.com/Measurement/App_Notes/NTSC_Video_Msmt/vectorscope.html
[10:49] <fsphil> wouldn't it be better if each row of the constellation was shifted by 50%? kinda like a beehive
[10:49] <fsphil> hexagonal is the word I'm looking for
[10:50] <adamgreig> typically there's a max power constraint which defines a circle around the origin you can't go outside of
[10:50] <eroomde> not sure i understand
[10:50] <adamgreig> so I think you'd have to have fewer constellation points if you wanted to position them like that
[10:50] <eroomde> but yes, what adamgreig says
[10:50] <adamgreig> which probably hurts more than you benefit
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[10:51] <adamgreig> eroomde: think he means that the voronoi diagram would be hexagonal
[10:51] <fsphil> http://cs.nju.edu.cn/yangxc/dcc_teach/adsl-pass/3-5.files/Image347.gif
[10:51] <fsphil> looks like it's been done
[10:51] <eroomde> ah i getcha
[10:51] <eroomde> yes probably
[10:51] <adamgreig> cute. looks like you can get close enough to a circle still
[10:52] <adamgreig> perhaps just more annoying to decode in hardware then?
[10:52] <eroomde> i imagine a lot of the QAM stuff is for ease of encoding/decoding
[10:52] <eroomde> too slow
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[10:53] <LeoBodnar> more power levels = linear TX/RX requirements are higher
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[10:54] <eroomde> yes
[10:54] <LeoBodnar> phase is easier to deal with
[10:54] <eroomde> though that's small bananas for Rx as 99% of people use an SSB receiver
[10:55] <fsphil> there was a datasheet somewhere that had a feedback part, where the transmitter monitored the output of the amplifier and adjusted the levels
[10:55] <eroomde> i think making something linear enough phase-wise is 99% of the propblem
[10:55] <eroomde> variable power is easy
[10:56] <eroomde> yes, to make a linear PA you usually take a very small amount of the rf, demodulate it back down to the IF you're mixing with, and do the feedback there
[10:57] <eroomde> as doing feedback at the RF freqs is a bit woowoo
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[10:57] <LeoBodnar> phase can be modulated easily digitally
[10:57] <LeoBodnar> power cannot
[10:57] <eroomde> sure it can
[10:58] <eroomde> say you're generating some audio-freq IF to mix with, you just change the amplitude just as readily as you change the phase, it's small bananas if you just have a microcontroller and a DAC
[10:58] <eroomde> or a DDS
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[11:00] <LeoBodnar> but PA linearity is the problem
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[11:00] <LeoBodnar> efficient designs tend to use class E, et al
[11:01] <eroomde> it doesn't scare me that much
[11:01] <Darkside> and at 70cm even those arent that efficint
[11:01] <eroomde> it's not going to fit on a postage-stamp PCB
[11:01] <Darkside> yeah
[11:01] <Darkside> but its doable
[11:01] <eroomde> but it's nothing that isn't well-understood rf engineering
[11:01] <Darkside> see if anyone has done an 'open' (in the amateur sense) SSB transmitter
[11:02] <eroomde> there myust be hundreds
[11:02] <Darkside> http://www.intio.or.jp/jf10zl/430ssb.htm
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[11:03] <RocketBoy> so much simpler than an antenna analyser http://www.ehow.com/how_6085455_measure-uhf-antenna-resistance.html
[11:03] <eroomde> you're flirting with a DIY gps receiver LeoBodnar, people would have said that's all woowoo until someone sits down and realises it isn't, it's just a bunch of simple concepts chained together
[11:04] <eroomde> i see similarities with designing a PA
[11:04] <gonzo_> sounds like you cound have the IQ drive pretty much sorted, just looking for a small 70cm IQ tx ?
[11:04] <eroomde> OH MY GOD RocketBoy
[11:04] <eroomde> i feel ill
[11:05] <Darkside> oh wow
[11:05] <Darkside> thats horrible
[11:05] <RocketBoy> thats the internet for you
[11:05] <daveake> w.................t...................f...........................?
[11:05] <RocketBoy> not even april 1
[11:06] <Lunar_LanderU> compiling dl-fldigi on the lubuntu install on the laptop, hoping it works
[11:06] <LeoBodnar> http://www.ehow.com/how_12325266_fix-bent-dipole.html
[11:06] <LeoBodnar> "The dipole style antenna works well because it matches the natural resonance of the radio signal"
[11:06] <LeoBodnar> I need to meditate to that
[11:07] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[11:09] <gonzo_> for qam, would it not be more compact to directly modulate the phase and aplitude components separatly?
[11:09] <eroomde> i'm not sure
[11:09] <eroomde> my gut feeling is to just get a DDS to do everything directly to an IF
[11:09] <Darkside> eroomde: i have seen some nice IQ modulator chips
[11:09] <nats`> hey RocketBoy that could work
[11:10] <nats`> do you have bionic arm to plug it in and off quickly enough ?
[11:10] <nats`> :D
[11:10] <Darkside> i'd be considering generating the I and Q at baseband and mixing it up with such a modulator
[11:11] <Darkside> you'd be after a pretty hefty DDS to be able to do stuff like QAM
[11:11] <adamgreig> the recent SDRs do that, essentially
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[11:11] <Darkside> yeah
[11:11] <adamgreig> pair of ADCs/DACs and IQ mod/demod
[11:11] <Darkside> and there are IQ modulator chips that will tak you straight to 70cm
[11:12] <Darkside> you may need to provide something annoying lik 2xLO or something
[11:12] <mattbrejza> then have the IQ inputs to the IQ mod at say 1-2MHz IF?
[11:12] <mattbrejza> or baseband into the IQ mod?
[11:12] <Darkside> i think it has to be baseband
[11:12] <Darkside> which sure as shit makes it easier
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[11:12] <Darkside> in terms of DAC requirements anyway
[11:13] <eroomde> bbl
[11:13] <mattbrejza> well a 10MSPS DAC isnt too bad
[11:13] <Darkside> yeah, but evn in terms of processing power its nicer
[11:13] <mattbrejza> pfft fpga :P
[11:13] <Darkside> hah
[11:13] <mattbrejza> cpld even
[11:13] <Darkside> so im wondering about the DDS idea
[11:13] <Darkside> most of the DDSes i've lookd at have been constant amplitude
[11:14] <Darkside> but i've really only been looking at low power DDSes
[11:14] <gonzo_> the I/Q LO feeds should be easy enough. just a bit of shift with some C
[11:14] <mattbrejza> do you just want to do bpsk/qpsk at 70cm?
[11:14] <Darkside> there are some scary AD DDS chips that can do some crazy stuff
[11:14] <Darkside> mattbrejza: ed does
[11:14] <Darkside> h wants to do QAM
[11:14] <gonzo_> you can do the AM part at the PA
[11:14] <Darkside> yeah
[11:14] <gonzo_> old world style
[11:15] <mattbrejza> does he want to approach the 10kb/s?
[11:15] <Darkside> yep
[11:15] <Darkside> h wants a 9.6kbps symbol rate, with 1/4 coding
[11:15] <mattbrejza> a good start would be 2.7kHz wide MSK
[11:15] <Darkside> for 2400bit/s user throughput
[11:15] <Darkside> yeah, he wants to do QAM :P
[11:15] <adamgreig> 2.4kbit isn't really 10kbit/s
[11:15] <adamgreig> only .25 of capacity :P
[11:15] <Darkside> :P
[11:15] <Darkside> well we cant have everything
[11:15] <mattbrejza> i would do 1/3 rate coding as you can then just apply the LTE code
[11:15] <adamgreig> why not? shannon promised the world
[11:16] <Darkside> dammit, now im reminded of the start of DOTT
[11:16] <Darkside> day of the tentacle
[11:17] <Darkside> http://www.ehow.com/how_6085455_measure-uhf-antenna-resistance.html
[11:17] <Darkside> argh
[11:17] <Darkside> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BRXmgcBHBM#t=55
[11:17] <Darkside> that
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[11:17] <Darkside> dunno why
[11:17] <Darkside> but there it is
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[11:20] <LeoBodnar> For ICs I drew a line at 1W power consumption. Above that any chip does not exist to me. Which sadly includes majority of AD products
[11:20] <Darkside> hehe
[11:21] <Darkside> one of the higher spec AD DDSes draws somthign like 2A
[11:21] <Darkside> its just stupid
[11:21] <LeoBodnar> yeah that
[11:22] <mattbrejza> AD8345 or AD8346 look quite promising
[11:22] <mattbrejza> well AD8345 for 70cm
[11:22] <mattbrejza> only 65mA supply current....
[11:23] <Darkside> and you'll only need a 10dB amp
[11:23] <Darkside> or thereabouts
[11:23] <gonzo_> mmic
[11:23] <Darkside> yep
[11:23] <mattbrejza> yea i dunno how much you want to run below the P1 value
[11:23] <Darkside> the minicircuits MMICs would be linear enough
[11:23] <Darkside> gali 84 would do it
[11:23] <gonzo_> though that will prob be another 65ma
[11:24] <Darkside> so does that AD chip require a 2xLO or something?
[11:24] <gonzo_> but we are back to this being olny needed for bigger pauloads
[11:24] <mattbrejza> nopr
[11:24] <Darkside> cool
[11:24] <Darkside> needs a differential LO input though
[11:24] <LeoBodnar> Looks like it generates 90 deg phase diff internally
[11:25] <Darkside> ok
[11:25] <mattbrejza> could you match the differential output of a cc1101 to the LO though?
[11:25] <Darkside> well it looks like a QAM transmitter could be quite small
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[11:25] <LeoBodnar> So it's either divider or PLL
[11:25] <Darkside> mattbrejza: i was thinking the same thing..
[11:25] <Darkside> use one of the RF chips we already use as a LO
[11:25] <mattbrejza> as these small ISM Tx seem to be the easiest PLLs around
[11:25] <Darkside> might have bad phase noise or something
[11:25] <gonzo_> can you do the phase mod in the dds?
[11:25] <Darkside> gonzo_: this isnt a DDS
[11:26] <Darkside> its an IQ modulator
[11:26] <Darkside> direct from baseband to 70cm
[11:26] <gonzo_> the drive LO dds I mean, sorry
[11:26] <mattbrejza> the appnotes suggest generating the differential LO via a balun
[11:26] <mattbrejza> dislike baluns
[11:26] <Darkside> the LO would be from a PLL
[11:26] <Darkside> mattbrejza: minicircuits 1:1 transformer
[11:26] <Darkside> tiny little things
[11:27] <gonzo_> phase mod the pll? Then Am at the PA.
[11:27] <mattbrejza> adl5320 might be a good amp
[11:27] <Darkside> gonzo_: dont need to
[11:27] <fsphil> nice, AD8345 covers quite a bit of spectrum
[11:27] <gonzo_> seems that IQ is great for complicated modulation schemes, but this application coudl be simplified?
[11:27] <Darkside> gonzo_: the point of this chip is you generate the QAM signal at baseband, and the chip shifts it up to 70cm
[11:27] <mattbrejza> i was going to use one when i was looking at the 500mW at 869
[11:27] <Darkside> gonzo_: well the point of this is for QAM
[11:27] <mattbrejza> but then noticed the DC and other annoyances
[11:27] <fsphil> you could do any mode with this
[11:28] <Darkside> well the datasheet mentions QAM
[11:28] <Darkside> so thats promising
[11:28] <LeoBodnar> So what is this for?
[11:28] <fsphil> ah, this was the datasheet I mentioned earlier: http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/AN-1039.pdf
[11:29] <Darkside> humm whats this TxDAC Chip family
[11:29] <mattbrejza> i would probably drive the IQ mod at a few MHz IF to avoid LO leakage and image issues, but i might be overthinking it
[11:29] <fsphil> with the feedback circuit to correct the output constellation
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[12:13] <Lunar_LanderU> so
[12:13] <Lunar_LanderU> 10 year old ThinkPad T23 runs dl-fldigi on Lubuntu 13.10
[12:13] <Lunar_LanderU> that is good
[12:14] <craag> :)
[12:14] <fsphil> oh nice
[12:14] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[12:14] <fsphil> and I thought my thinkpad was old
[12:15] <fsphil> well it is, 2006
[12:15] <mfa298> does it manage to decode well? (I found on an old mini-itx system it appeared to work but the decode rate was poor)
[12:16] <Lunar_LanderU> decoding is next, I just tried if the installation and getting it to listen with PulseAudio works
[12:18] <mfa298> with any luck the 10 yeard old thinkpad will have a bit more cpu power than the mini-itx I had (which was probably also around 10 years old but low powered)
[12:18] <eroomde> there are a tonne of single-chip USF linear PAs
[12:18] <fsphil> decoding rtty really shouldn't be that cpu intensive
[12:18] <fsphil> I bet an atmega could do it
[12:18] <eroomde> because that's what wifi uses (all its subchannels are qam) but they're all a bit too UHF
[12:18] <eroomde> UHF*
[12:20] <eroomde> http://www.skyworksinc.com/uploads/documents/SKY65162_70LF_201212H.pdf
[12:22] <eroomde> current's a bit scary, granted
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[12:29] <Lunar_LanderT> so, at the T23 now
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[12:36] <Lunar_LanderT> yes decoding works well
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[12:38] <cm13g09> Lunar_LanderU: lucky you
[12:38] <cm13g09> getting Pulse to work :P
[12:38] <fsphil> hah
[12:38] <fsphil> pulseaudio I do believe is evil
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[12:39] <fsphil> fine for listening to music
[12:50] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[12:51] <Lunar_LanderU> the normal interface was a bit laggy
[12:51] <Lunar_LanderU> HAB slim interface worked better
[12:51] <Lunar_LanderU> probably due to the GPU
[12:52] <cm13g09> fsphil: PA is *very much* evil
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yes - I was wondering what the minimum sample time vs clock drift curve looked like.
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: Clearly, if your maximum drift is under 1ms, you can sample for somewhat under 1ms if you can recover enough signal during that time.
[12:53] <LeoBodnar> So if 2msec interval is enough for 50baud bit acquisition does this mean that receiver can use 1:10 duty ratio when receiving navigation messages?
[12:54] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yes.
[12:54] <LeoBodnar> That's only 1mA of current on SE4120
[12:54] <SpeedEvil> For one sat.
[12:54] <SpeedEvil> It gets annoying when you consider >1 sat -
[12:54] <LeoBodnar> why one?
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> If you sample 2ms every 20ms, you can do it - but some sats will have their transitions split between intervals
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> Which isn't in principle a problem, but will complicate your code a lot.
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> There are also optimisations. If you don't need to download the ephemeris or almanac - there is no reason to listen to other than the time of week word.
[12:57] <LeoBodnar> *This will probably degrade SNR by 10dB
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> But - the time of week is completely predictable - so why are you listening to that if you're remaining locked.
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[12:58] <LeoBodnar> To get locked
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> (locked = never, ever slipping 1ms)
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right.
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[12:58] <SpeedEvil> If you assume you know roughly where you are, you can do further optimisations.
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> If satellite A is 6000km further away from you than B then sampling for 1ms reads one bit from satellite A, and the next bit from satellite B.
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[13:00] <SpeedEvil> You only need to turn the RF stage on for 2ms every 40ms
[13:01] <Joel_re> hey SpeedEvil !
[13:03] <SpeedEvil> So it'd go something like 'get 2ms - see what SVs are in this'. Look up our position and the almanac to work out their positions. Work out what the delays between them is. Now, work out at what interval we can sample to get data bits from all SVs. This may be bit -2 from SV1, bit -1 from SV2
[13:06] <fsphil> pulseaudio seems to mess with the phase of the signal at random, or if the cpu is being worked
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> I think the minimum is something like - if you have almanac but know nothing about time. 2ms listen to work out what SVs are visible and their time offsets. 6 seconds of listening for the navigation message at around 2ms/50ms or so. (depending on satellite configuration)
[13:07] <fsphil> and will sometimes just mess up the signal completely by repeating samples and doubling the sample rate, also at random
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> Err - no - actually, it's probably better than that
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> Because the frames are synchronous, the only times that all SVs will generally be transmitting the same data is the start of the navigation frame.
[13:09] <Laurenceb> hello
[13:10] <Laurenceb> oof GPS talk :P
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> This means I think it's possible - if 2ms samples are adequate - to sample every (say) 400ms or so, for the first 6 seconds, and very likely get an idea of exactly when the start of the nav message is. During this you'll have sampled probably 6 of the nav messages time of week bits.
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[13:10] <SpeedEvil> So you only need to get the other 11
[13:10] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: i might be able to spare a couple of se4120 ics
[13:10] <Laurenceb> as they are out of production
[13:10] <Laurenceb> they do 4Msps unlike se4110
[13:11] <LeoBodnar> Hah, I have been just hunting for them everywhere
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> I think that means you might be able to lock to GPS with 40ms or so of radio time.
[13:11] <Laurenceb> tbh se4110 is just as usable
[13:11] <Laurenceb> i only have 10 spare
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> Assuming almanac only - 'cold' - no idea of time at all.
[13:11] <LeoBodnar> ah ok
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> That is barking mad.
[13:12] <LeoBodnar> so SIG output is what you sample, not MAG?
[13:12] <Laurenceb> se4110 could be resampled quite easily
[13:12] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:12] <Laurenceb> but FFT aquisition would be just as fast with sig and MAG
[13:12] <Laurenceb> as 16bit fixed point
[13:13] <LeoBodnar> I can't see why commercial modules have such massive power requirements vs what can be [seemingly] done DIY
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> Actually. ...
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure teh above isn't pessimistic
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> It assumes we need to know all the bits in the TOW
[13:14] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: they do continuous tracking
[13:14] <Laurenceb> but then again, look at what android/iphone achieve with A-GPS
[13:14] <Laurenceb> much better performance than any commercial modules
[13:14] <SpeedEvil> But we don't - as the first 2ms or so sample will give us a damn good idea of the time because of the sky clock.
[13:14] <Laurenceb> basically im thinking of A-GPS
[13:14] <SpeedEvil> It's unfortunate that GPS sats are in a 12 hour orbit.
[13:15] <Laurenceb> RTC and almanac onboard
[13:15] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: with even a rough almanac you can solve for TOW
[13:16] <Laurenceb> you just dont know what sats to look for and what dopplers
[13:16] <Laurenceb> tho you do need rough position
[13:16] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming 2ms sample -> FFT to get the offsets.
[13:16] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:17] <SpeedEvil> Then a 'cold' reading just assuming approx position - and getting crazy results - like 40ms of radio time required for a lock.
[13:17] <SpeedEvil> - 2ms*20 or so
[13:18] <SpeedEvil> As you know the time of week bits and training bits are broadcast in lock-step on all sats.
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[13:19] <SpeedEvil> I suspect adding in the almanac might reduce this to 15*2ms, but would need to think more.
[13:19] <LeoBodnar> Shouldn't you be able to continuously receive nav messages from all satellites waking RF stage for 2msec every 20 msec?
[13:19] <Laurenceb> heh
[13:19] <SpeedEvil> No, it's better than that. - if you know where you are.
[13:19] <Laurenceb> with good SNR, yes
[13:20] <LeoBodnar> that's 1mA average current for RF frontend
[13:20] <LeoBodnar> mind blowing
[13:20] <LeoBodnar> vs 80mA for UBLOX
[13:20] <SpeedEvil> because when you wake up, you sample one bit from one sat, and the previous bit from a satellite 6000km away
[13:20] <SpeedEvil> So you may only need to sample every 40 or 50ms
[13:21] <LeoBodnar> yes but you can have separate message decoder for each sat, as decoder is only 50 baud
[13:21] <SpeedEvil> For the initial 'where is the start of frame' scan - you probably only need to scan once every 400ms or so.
[13:21] <SpeedEvil> Over 6 seconds - to get to know where the start of frame is.
[13:22] <Laurenceb> http://www.insidegnss.com/node/2979
[13:22] <Laurenceb> ^that
[13:22] <Laurenceb> as i've said :P no need for any of this with RTC and almanac
[13:22] <SpeedEvil> Then you just need to 'fill in' the rest of the bits you missed - perhaps another 5 or so samples.
[13:22] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Oh - I agree.
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I just find it mindblowing that you can do a 'cold' acquisition in a very few tens of milliseconds radio time.
[13:23] <Laurenceb> ah
[13:23] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:23] <Laurenceb> but you still have to find the satellites
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> And that's even without considering the almanac - I suspect proper thinking about it could reduce it to 20ms.
[13:23] <Laurenceb> no so easy if you dont know which ones to look for and what dopplers
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> yes - FFT over the initial 2ms of data.
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> Or actually - does that require more.
[13:24] <Laurenceb> if you have RTC, tadaaa
[13:24] <Laurenceb> http://docs.swift-nav.com/libswiftnav/group__almanac.html
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yeah. RTC makes it way too easy
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Even if you only know the time to a second.
[13:24] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:25] <Laurenceb> attn arko: http://hackaday.com/2014/01/06/come-build-the-hackaday-community/#comments
[13:25] <Laurenceb> * - #comments
[13:31] <eroomde> what am i looking for?
[13:31] <Laurenceb> hackaday in LA
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[13:33] <eroomde> oh attn arko
[13:33] <eroomde> i see
[13:34] <Laurenceb> lol
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[13:46] <Laurenceb> eroomde: if you are still interested in rockoons/n-prize
[13:46] <Laurenceb> i had a hilariously simple idea for attitude control on spin stabilised rockoons: a magnet
[13:47] <Laurenceb> turns out a few gram Nd magnet is enough to precess the spin axis
[13:47] <eroomde> huh?
[13:47] <Laurenceb> in earth field
[13:48] <Laurenceb> so, magnet on a pyro release to reorientate stages
[13:49] <eroomde> i see
[13:49] <eroomde> that's really enough torque is it?
[13:49] <Laurenceb> seems counter-intuitive to me yeah
[13:50] <Laurenceb> but with most of the designs i looked at there was ~100s from staging to stage 2 ignition
[13:50] <Laurenceb> and the maths says it works ok
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: For a truly cold lock - you need about 400*2ms (800ms) spread over 12s which may be up to a total initial lock time of 35s elapsed time. The almanac needs a total of 6 seconds or so radio time - assuming a reasonable satellite geometry.
[13:51] <Laurenceb> so just the _slight_ issue of spinning up and launching it
[13:52] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: interesting
[13:52] <Laurenceb> would take a lot of code to make this feasible...
[13:53] <Laurenceb> "simple" implementation of http://www.insidegnss.com/node/2979 with fft and libswiftnav seems doable to me
[13:55] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: for picos, have you considered trying sirf chipsets?
[13:55] <eroomde> if all this effort is to circumvent the 10-20s the ublox needs to get a lock from sleep, then I'd have thought it much easier to first try other gps chipsets
[13:56] <eroomde> and sirf chipsets are very good - very sensitive, at least as good as the ublox's
[13:56] <UpuWork> use more power though
[13:56] <Laurenceb> lol
[13:56] <UpuWork> not seen one that runs down to 2V either
[13:56] <UpuWork> though there are step ups for that
[13:56] <eroomde> use more power than what?
[13:57] <UpuWork> I've said before if you can replicate this behaviour in uCenter I can log it as an issue
[13:57] <UpuWork> MAX7's
[13:57] <eroomde> but power ias the wrong metric to be considering
[13:57] <Laurenceb> eroomde: i think this is more for "fun"
[13:57] <eroomde> Leo is interested in energy per lock
[13:57] <eroomde> not power
[13:57] <UpuWork> oh ok
[13:57] <eroomde> so if it can get a lock from a hotstart in 2s vs 20s, that's very likely to be a lot less energy per lock
[13:57] <eroomde> which is what you care about
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I think you can actually beat that 6 seconds of radio time quite a lot if you don't care much about accuracy. Instead of needing to listen to all of the satellites at once and download the ephemirides for all satellites in view - which requires 400 or so samples *2ms - you can - if you don't care about lock time - instead download only the bits of the almanac you care about for the four strongest sats. This would get you about a 3
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> .5 second total radio time lock.
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: This may on the other hand - be insane though.
[13:58] <LeoBodnar> I can't replicate this with uCenter as it is hardware controlled hotstart
[13:58] <Laurenceb> well
[13:59] <Laurenceb> front end is ~10ma
[13:59] <Laurenceb> stm32 at full pelt is ~50ma
[13:59] <UpuWork> I know thats the issue
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> err - 2.5 seconds
[13:59] <Laurenceb> so processing demand is also important
[14:00] <eroomde> also I think you info is out of date Upu
[14:00] <UpuWork> which info ?
[14:00] <eroomde> the newer Sirf chipsets (eg SirfStarIV) run at 1.8V
[14:00] <UpuWork> ah ok it is then
[14:00] <eroomde> 1Hz tracking is 10mA
[14:00] <UpuWork> they'll be ok for foils I guess
[14:01] <eroomde> yeah
[14:01] <eroomde> Telit Jupiter SE880
[14:01] <UpuWork> however I'd prefer to try get ublox to fix whatever the issue is
[14:01] <eroomde> 4mm x 4mm
[14:01] <Laurenceb> Only 50 to 500¼A maintains hot start capability
[14:01] <Laurenceb> not bad
[14:01] <Laurenceb> if it works reliably
[14:01] <eroomde> yes, that's the big 'if' i guess
[14:02] <Laurenceb> but not as fun
[14:02] <LeoBodnar> £10 and SPI bus http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/SE880GPSR22R001/943-1019-1-ND/3991550
[14:02] <eroomde> you're welcome
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Oops - order of magnitude typo error. ~40ms for initial lockon to the time-of-week. Another 8ms for getting the week number. And then 600ms or so for downloading the relevant bits of the almanac. So - of the order of 700ms radio time for a cold lock.
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[14:03] <eroomde> i looked at it for something else a bit ago, it looked good
[14:04] <LeoBodnar> If it is predictable in power consumption then it's worth a shot
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: This is with 2ms samples, and the multiple bit sampling as mentioned above.
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[14:04] <eroomde> gotta be worth a try right
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> Gah - I'm not awake. Getting a prompt lock is not nearly 6.5 seconds, but 800ms. (radio, not elapsed, elapsed is 7s or so) Elapsed for the almanac hack is up to 12 mins.
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> This is from completely cold.
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> But this is quite irrelevant for HAB
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[14:07] <SpeedEvil> I should wake up properly. Elapsed for a prompt cold fix is up to 32 seconds.
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> Last correction - 37
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[14:35] <eroomde> don't know if this is of any use to anyone
[14:35] <eroomde> http://uk.farnell.com/parts-finder-tool?ICID=I-HPBL-LDBR-0101
[14:38] <LeoBodnar> what's this?
[14:39] <eroomde> the link
[14:39] <LeoBodnar> I get parts finder generic page
[14:39] <eroomde> it's a browser plugin that lets you find bits on farnell as you browse
[14:39] <eroomde> oh
[14:39] <eroomde> yes that's correct
[14:40] <eroomde> is there an embedded youtube video?
[14:40] <eroomde> on the right?
[14:40] <eroomde> if so it's the right page, and the video explains what it is
[14:40] <craag> Ah, you're not part of the chrome master race leo?
[14:41] <craag> (It's a chrome browser extension)
[14:41] <LeoBodnar> I am using steam power (Safari)
[14:41] <eroomde> it's multibrowser
[14:41] <eroomde> FF too
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[14:42] <LeoBodnar> I am cautious about browser extensions
[14:43] <LeoBodnar> but if it makes Farnell website slightly more useable it might be worth changing the browser
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[15:08] <Laurenceb> plugins you say?
[15:08] <Laurenceb> http://www.planitagency.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/too_many_toolbars.jpg
[15:13] <nats`> browser heart attack
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[15:19] <eroomde> Laurenceb: do you have a link to that NSA bug?
[15:19] <eroomde> the one that modulated the reflected RF
[15:20] <eroomde> here's a fun game
[15:20] <eroomde> type 'ADXXXX' into google where XXXX is a 4-digit random number. if it's an analog devices part, read about it and read the datasheet. it's amazing what you learn. I just found a really useful IC
[15:21] <fsphil> hah, there is an AD6502
[15:21] <fsphil> obsolete adsl communications processor
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[15:21] <eroomde> 8312 i just tried, RF detector and meater
[15:21] <Laurenceb> http://btpro.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/TAO-implants.pdf
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[15:22] <eroomde> i can definitely use that on the rocket so the power-amps can self-test before launch
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[15:38] <LeoBodnar> meater
[15:39] <LeoBodnar> sorry it lolled me
[15:39] <eroomde> oh yes
[15:41] <iain_g4sgx> Afternoon all, anyone about can answer a question about hand soldering SMD crytals? I'm trying to put a 8Mhz xtal onto the PIC dev board my proto uses but as far as I can see all the pad is covered by the completely Xtal body. Is this normal? Am I gonna have to use hot air?
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[15:42] <LeoBodnar> I can't put my finger on what AD does differently that makes their product more pleasurable to use
[15:43] <eroomde> iain_g4sgx: it's normal yes, and hot-air will certainly make it easier
[15:43] <eroomde> often with parts like that, people extend the pcb footprint so you can put the iron tip down on the exposed bit and have the heat carry through to under the device
[15:43] <eroomde> in the absense of that, hot-air or luck+patience
[15:43] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: I find they have good datasheets
[15:44] <eroomde> parts are well specified, there are good application notes and diagrams
[15:44] <eroomde> i like Linear Tech stuff for the same reason
[15:44] <LeoBodnar> maybe lack of dynamics on the website
[15:44] <LeoBodnar> motion damped popping tabs and other crap
[15:45] <eroomde> TI...
[15:45] <eroomde> webwench is a beast
[15:45] <iain_g4sgx> Hmm.ok thanks. I shall have a go when i'm not too tired and i can see properly. Wish me luck.
[15:45] <eroomde> gluck
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[15:46] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: I first read about RF filtering on the front ends of instrumentation amps through a note in one of their datasheets
[15:46] <eroomde> i have been grateful to them since
[15:47] <LeoBodnar> oh yeah, they had great opamp musings
[15:47] <Laurenceb> yeah thats a big issue in some applications
[15:47] <Laurenceb> RF induced offsets
[15:47] <eroomde> yes, i suffered from it at CUED
[15:48] <LeoBodnar> via internal rectification?
[15:48] <eroomde> i've learnt so much about making good instrumentation since working in this job
[15:48] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: exactly
[15:48] <LeoBodnar> interesting
[15:48] <iain_g4sgx> I shall get a rework station. I have used them years ago but only to remove big chips. Easy to overdo it and either get some devices 'tombstoning' or worse.
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[15:50] <eroomde> iain_g4sgx: the biggest single thing i found to make using hot-air pleasureable was a pre-heat plate
[15:50] <eroomde> you can pick them up for little on ebay
[15:50] <eroomde> they bring the whole pcb up to 100-150C, then when you apply the hot-air it takes enormously less time to melt the solder
[15:51] <eroomde> which puts a lot less stress on the components and the pcb
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[15:51] <eroomde> and it's especially good when you have large ground planes that otherwise happily wick away all the heat
[15:51] <mattbrejza> agreed, just dont lean on the hot plate...
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[15:52] <eroomde> Laurenceb: on the pitot tube on the parachute drop vehcile, we could see when we were TXing
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[15:52] <eroomde> as the pressure sensors on the pitot were just bridge
[15:53] <iain_g4sgx> OK cool. In this case its surrounded by caps etc. Awkward. I have accidentally removed half a boards components with a miss calculated chip nudge once. Very embarassing, had to bin it.
[15:55] <LeoBodnar> I had a few very strange experiences with instrumentation amps and bridges
[15:56] <eroomde> like what?
[15:57] <LeoBodnar> Microchip pushed their new instrumentation amp that was supposed to be wonderful and it turned out to be a disastrously noisy
[15:57] <LeoBodnar> It was just horrible
[15:57] <eroomde> i've never really used any of their analogue stuff
[15:57] <LeoBodnar> even on their own demo board
[15:58] <LeoBodnar> I thought I'd give them a shot
[15:58] <LeoBodnar> let me dig the part number
[15:58] <eroomde> i like Analog and Linear for analogue stuff, mostly
[15:58] <eroomde> TI I often use for SMPS
[15:59] <LeoBodnar> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/25073A.pdf
[15:59] <LeoBodnar> it was just awful
[16:00] <LeoBodnar> AD and TI, nothing else for me
[16:00] <mattbrejza> maxim?
[16:00] <LeoBodnar> *BB really, lovely stuff
[16:00] <fsphil> would the output of an AD8348 be powerful enough to be received in the same room, without any amps?
[16:00] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: did you mention you had a book which was essentially just the collected app-notes of jim williams edited into a book?
[16:00] <eroomde> yeah, BB stuff is good
[16:00] <LeoBodnar> yep
[16:00] <eroomde> but Linear also gets propers from me
[16:00] <eroomde> they have some really useful partas
[16:00] <arko> Laurenceb: yeah got tickets
[16:01] <eroomde> I often prototype with Linear as they have the canonical chip for a given task, and then look at TI for production as they'll have something close enough for 1/3 the price
[16:01] <arko> and free samples
[16:01] <LeoBodnar> There was also a case when one of my seemingly clever cost-saving jobbies didn't work
[16:01] <eroomde> fsphil: that's a demodulator
[16:02] <eroomde> do you mean 8345?
[16:02] <fsphil> ah, whoops yes
[16:02] <eroomde> yes probably
[16:02] <fsphil> that would've been a waste
[16:02] <mattbrejza> the 8345 has at least 1mW output so would have hoped so
[16:03] <eroomde> it can do like 0dbm if VCC is high enough
[16:03] <eroomde> if memory serves
[16:03] <eroomde> which is plenty
[16:03] <LeoBodnar> turned out noise spike drove instrumentation amp into internal saturation and even though noise was in usec range the recovery took like 50 msec for the amp to come back to life
[16:03] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: yes i've had that too
[16:03] <LeoBodnar> if you think about this is like forever for the single silicon IC
[16:03] <eroomde> i had different supplies for the =ve and -ve rails on one design, and the ive rail came up before =ve
[16:03] <fsphil> thanks
[16:03] <eroomde> and the thing locked to a rail and consumed 120mA
[16:03] <eroomde> and wouldn't recover
[16:03] <LeoBodnar> embarrassingly this was mentioned in the datasheet
[16:04] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: ping on book question
[16:04] <LeoBodnar> yep
[16:05] <eroomde> what was it called?
[16:05] <LeoBodnar> let me find it
[16:05] <eroomde> ty
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[16:08] <LeoBodnar> I got this http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0123851858/ref=pe_385721_37038051_pe_217191_31005151_M3T1_dp_2
[16:08] <LeoBodnar> I also got this one and it's good as well http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0750686278/ref=pe_385721_37038051_pe_217191_31005151_M3T1_dp_1
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[16:09] <Laurenceb> i hate adhesives
[16:09] <Laurenceb> now i have to rebuild a ton of sensors as the plastic has too much plasticizer :-/
[16:09] <LeoBodnar> like porridge?
[16:10] <Laurenceb> this stuff
[16:10] <Laurenceb> http://www.smith-nephew.com/snef/pdfs/8/eu29.pdf
[16:10] <Laurenceb> turns out its impossible to epoxy
[16:10] <Laurenceb> get some of the other stuff in the same range epoxies fine
[16:10] <Laurenceb> so annoying
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[16:11] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/uj7Fedd.jpg <- i lolled
[16:12] <eroomde> thanks LeoBodnar
[16:12] <eroomde> Laurenceb: what's funny about it?
[16:12] <eroomde> should i stare at it longer?
[16:12] <Laurenceb> rpi shopped to inside a steambox
[16:12] <eroomde> oh right
[16:13] <Laurenceb> i hate epoxy
[16:13] <Laurenceb> whenever i use it it doesnt want to stick to anything
[16:14] <eroomde> you think you have it bad
[16:14] <LeoBodnar> it does to applicator and all packaging and fingers and the desk
[16:14] <eroomde> try using adhesives inside a liquid-helium systems
[16:14] <Laurenceb> eeek
[16:14] <eroomde> or LOX for that matter
[16:14] <eroomde> it's all goes barf
[16:15] <Laurenceb> time for EU28
[16:15] <Laurenceb> itd help if my epoxy didnt take 36hours to cure
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[16:16] <eroomde> epoxy is a canonical example of the life lesson that if you want something better you have to wait longer
[16:17] <eroomde> it seems like there's a perfectly linear relationship between strength of bond and curing time
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[16:17] <Hix> Greetings and HNY folks
[16:17] <Laurenceb> yeah - im using epecial medical stuff
[16:18] <Laurenceb> http://www.ztex.de/imgs/usb-fpga-2.16-1600.jpg
[16:18] <Laurenceb> my eyes
[16:19] <Laurenceb> wait wut
[16:19] <Laurenceb> http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/06/ibuypower-sbx/
[16:19] <eroomde> wierd cap packages
[16:19] <Laurenceb> im confused as to who is trolling who
[16:19] <Hix> sort of on subject Laurenceb http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~ucahhmf/Research_files/thesis_main.pdf
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[16:30] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
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[16:31] <Laurenceb> eroomde: if initial epoxy bond is good, but strength decays over a few days until it peels off, thats plasticizer right?
[16:31] <eroomde> don't know i'm afriad
[16:32] <Laurenceb> ok nvm
[16:32] <eroomde> never seen that happen
[16:32] <LeoBodnar> wtf traces layout and heatsink angle?
[16:32] <Laurenceb> i think its plasticizer accumulating at the bond
[16:32] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: autorouter
[16:33] Nick change: stilldavid_ -> stilldavid
[16:34] <Laurenceb> its supposedly a bitcoin miner
[16:34] <Laurenceb> talking of which
[16:34] <Laurenceb> http://thegenesisblock.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/avalaon_asic_card.jpg
[16:34] <Laurenceb> looks like a real asic miner card
[16:34] <eroomde> wow
[16:35] <adamgreig> still doesn't seem like it could be profitable unless you can get electricity nearly free
[16:35] <eroomde> apparently this is the cheapest way to get a Zync devioce to play with
[16:35] <eroomde> http://www.parallella.org/
[16:35] <adamgreig> though apparently it's having all sorts of really bizarre externalities
[16:35] <eroomde> zynq*
[16:35] <adamgreig> like, people are starting to ship bitcoin miners around the world to take advantage of cheap electricity
[16:35] <adamgreig> the cost of an amazon EC2 GPU instance is now dictated by the price of litecoin, and is thus about 8x higher than before litecoin existed
[16:36] <zyp> eroomde, still waiting for mine
[16:37] <zyp> which was supposed to ship in may last year :)
[16:37] <eroomde> the toolchain is somethign that I would fear more
[16:37] <LeoBodnar> How are we supposed to talk to aliens if we can't even converse with cats?
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[16:39] <Laurenceb> lolwut
[16:39] <Laurenceb> talking of which, my neighbours cat keeps waking me up each morning now
[16:39] <Laurenceb> i fed it once.. now its managing to bang on my window
[16:40] <Laurenceb> one freakily smart cat
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Seems reasonable to me.
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> (plasticiser)
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[17:06] <LeoBodnar> http://www.telit.com/module/infopool/download.php?id=4233 page.21 Fig.4-4 makes lots of sense
[17:09] <LeoBodnar> But it does not seem to include the fix cycles. Fig.4-3 suggests a fix request requires "Variable period of up to 8 or more seconds" at full power
[17:09] <Willdude123> Hello.
[17:09] <Willdude123> So what highly complicated ideas that I don't understand are we discussing today>? :P
[17:09] <LeoBodnar> = "any number of seconds"
[17:10] <Willdude123> Dammit I'd really like to take my radio to southampton tommorrow
[17:11] <Willdude123> But I probably shouldn't
[17:11] <craag> The way I understand it is that it'll grab as much data as it can in the 100ms captures, and depending on how successful it is, it'll have to do a proper data-collection cycle at some point?
[17:12] <craag> The energy used does look to be miniscule :)
[17:13] <craag> Willdude123: There are a few radio hams around but no repeater. I don't get a repsonse to about 3/4 of my calls, so it's not really worth it.
[17:13] <craag> (Plus that's when I'm in the car with a 5/8 whip and 50W)
[17:14] <Willdude123> craag: why no repeater?
[17:14] <craag> Willdude123: They wanted at least 2000 quid a year for the spot on the roof where it was.
[17:15] <craag> So it got taken down, and we haven't found an alternative site.
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[17:16] <Willdude123> gah
[17:16] <Willdude123> It doesn't cost them £2000
[17:16] <Willdude123> DO you do any hf?
[17:16] <craag> No, but that's how much a mobile phone company would have paid for the spot.
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[17:17] <craag> Not much, too much cheap student kit around here. We do a bit portable in the new forest from time to time.
[17:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah Babs, some Pano's are available on the website http://360.g8dhe.net/default.php?HAB
[17:18] <Willdude123> In countries where airborne use is allowed, is it allowed on commercial flights?
[17:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> I've also put the masters at much higher resloution on the FTP server for you along with a local viewer.
[17:18] <craag> Willdude123: No, not without permission from the pilot, which he'd never give you.
[17:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> Babs_
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[17:19] <craag> Far too much electronics on a commercial passenger plane.
[17:19] <Babs_> Hey Geoff-G8DHE
[17:19] <Babs_> lets have a look. v excited!
[17:19] <craag> They go through *massive* testing just to make sure their own radios don't interfere with their control systems.
[17:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> The gimbals in some ways is to good!
[17:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> It took over 10 minutes and several hundred shots to get a 360 above 20Kms!
[17:21] <Willdude123> craag: is that actually necessary?
[17:21] <LeoBodnar> A lot of interference to VHF airband equipment comes from crap FM transmitters
[17:21] <Willdude123> Like if private pilots can make mobile phone calls and use amateur radio?
[17:21] <Willdude123> Then why is it different?
[17:22] <craag> Willdude123: In which case it's their life.
[17:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> One of the reasons that they stll use AM for aircraft, nobody wants to do th etesting!
[17:22] <craag> Not the lifes of the 200+ people who've paid to be on the plane!
[17:22] <mattbrejza> and they can stop tx'ing when they realise its interfering
[17:22] <craag> (and hence the airline is responsible for)
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[17:22] <LeoBodnar> mobile phones are not really allowed to use even on the private planes but many people do use them
[17:23] <Babs_> Great stuff Geoff-G8DHE - they look fantastic
[17:23] <mattbrejza> do light aircraft still have mechanical links between the control stick and surfaces?
[17:23] <LeoBodnar> like when you are on the circuit hight
[17:23] <nats`> LeoBodnar they are now :)
[17:23] <LeoBodnar> i.e. 100ft
[17:23] <mfa298> I would imagine that use on an aircraft would have a similar clause to that on shipping - i.e. you need (written?) permission from the person in charge (captain of the ship).
[17:23] <LeoBodnar> bah 1000ft
[17:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> Do you have any shots around burst point when the was more varied angles /tilt ?
[17:23] <Babs_> question, did you use more shots to get the 360 above 2okm because they were available, or if not what made it more complex?
[17:24] <LeoBodnar> not written
[17:24] <nats`> http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/in-flight-mobile-us-fcc-132523
[17:24] <Willdude123> Why is it that in this country you can't operate maritime mobile aside from on inland waters?
[17:24] <Babs_> Nope, the camera ran out before I got up there because I didn't put a Stirk in before I let it go
[17:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> The gimbal made sure that they were all clustered shots around a small angle, then something would perturb it
[17:24] <Babs_> Ahhh, stabilisation worked too well. excellent.
[17:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> and it would settle at a new angle, hence it was about a dozen clusters to get 360!
[17:24] <mfa298> Willdude123: you can operate in /mm in international waters but you need a full license
[17:24] <LeoBodnar> I am not abreast with current ANO and regulations but 10 years ago using the phones was not openly possible
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[17:25] <Babs_> I have a HD gopro video from up there, can you use that for anything?
[17:25] <Willdude123> mfa298: that would be cool, not that you could actually work anyone in international waters
[17:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> probably I can extract single shots possibly and align them,
[17:26] <Willdude123> Will probably take my handy with me on the French exchange
[17:26] <Willdude123> I might be an M0 by then
[17:26] <Babs_> ie just this one, but the HD view I can upload http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/8845053028/in/set-72157632733154985
[17:26] <eroomde> Guillaume le jambon
[17:26] <Willdude123> William the ham
[17:27] <Willdude123> YESS
[17:27] <mfa298> there shouldn't be any problem working people from international waters - although if you're going to use something restrictive like vhf fm then it might be a bit empty
[17:27] <Willdude123> I got it right
[17:27] <LeoBodnar> As to the US Garmin actually made a mobile phone with GPS avionics for pilots 5-6 years ago
[17:27] <Babs_> I don't think you actually have all of the files, my go up to 3301
[17:27] <Willdude123> mfa298: you can't easily do HF mobile on a ferry
[17:27] <Willdude123> WOuld I need to ask before using it if I did?
[17:27] <Babs_> what is the latest you had uploaded? I think virgin broadband got a bit bored with me and decided to limit my upload speed
[17:28] <mfa298> Willdude123: best answer for what you can do is to read the license!
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[17:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> In that case possibly not as the camera still stays very much on the horizon, very little tilt above 40 degrees or more
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[17:28] <mfa298> And on over water could be a good place for HF mobile.
[17:29] <nats`> Geoff-G8DHE for use of AM in airplane communication I saw other explaination than lack of testing
[17:29] <nats`> for voice call the brain is a good decoder
[17:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> it might be better to mount the cameras in Portraight mode so that the wider FoV is in the vertical direction
[17:29] <nats`> you can have understandable communication where some digital mode could be hard to get
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[17:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> there will be enough swing to cover the reduced FoV in the hoizontal plane from the small drift.
[17:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> nats' yes I would agree AM doesn't suffer the capture effect either wherby one Tx could override others.
[17:31] <Babs_> the one cool thing that came out of the experiment was how stable it all was. it was definitely a calm day, but even so i was pleased with the stability of it. now going to download the first pano, it is a epic
[17:31] <Babs_> thank you
[17:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> nps
[17:32] <eroomde> there is a huge amount of redundancy in voice communication, i think
[17:32] <LeoBodnar> especially between females
[17:33] <eroomde> this is an equal-opportunities channel
[17:33] <Babs_> who are you and what have you done with eroomde?
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[17:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> yes 3301 was the last inage uploaded
[17:35] <eroomde> I am equal opportunities Babs_
[17:36] <eroomde> all questions where I think the person asking has thought hard enough before asking will get an equal amount of scorn
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[17:36] Nick change: The_Doctor -> Adran
[17:38] <Laurenceb> theres a lot to be said for using metal for everything
[17:38] <eroomde> yes
[17:38] <Babs_> fair point. I don't think i have seen anyone who hasn't been exposed to disdain
[17:39] <Laurenceb> it does what its told to
[17:39] <eroomde> and welding
[17:39] <Laurenceb> so my sensors from before Christmas are also failing
[17:39] <Laurenceb> turns out all the polyurethane films suffer from same problem to one degree or another
[17:42] <Laurenceb> guess its time to try urethane adhesive
[17:42] <Babs_> Geoff-G8DHE - to get the heights did you look at the picture timings and compare them with the flight log?
[17:42] <Laurenceb> as ive tried all other adhesive types...
[17:42] <Hix> any of you guys use 1&1 as a host?
[17:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> yEs I was going to ask how close the two were, the sun angle and Heywood (?) airfield don't seem to quite tally
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[17:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Hayford air field I think
[17:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> Heyford airfield
[17:46] <Babs_> I can go back but I seem to remember the clock was an hour out
[17:46] <Babs_> It's enstone airfield I think
[17:46] <Babs_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/8882946838/in/set-72157632733154985
[17:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> There are several airfilds but the clearest was Heyford, yes that could have been the offset BST against UTC
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[17:48] <Babs_> I did have a spreadsheet that aligned the true times with the pictures using an iphone video of the launch for timing purposes
[17:48] <Babs_> but i lost it when I changed laptops
[17:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes I started with that then realised it didn't match, its Heyford that does match
[17:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Heyford+airfield&hl=en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=67.081585,74.707031&t=h&hq=Heyford+airfield&radius=15000&z=13
[17:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> At least the one that I was matching against ;-)
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[17:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> Called for Food, AFK
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[18:09] <mfa298> BBC needs SIBot, reporting on temperature in the US they used a thermometer that made it look like a toasty 10 degrees, Then said its F
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[18:12] <SpeedEvil> Babs_: #openstreetmap over on irc.oftc.net
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> Babs_: Or google around - fixing picture timestamps is a common problem
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> JOSM - the java OSM editor may also be able to do it now
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> with pictures
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[18:24] <Babs_> ok, thanks SpeedEvil, will look into it
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[19:25] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: Preliminary box designs are always such fun... #ukhas http://t.co/HiamMPdA33
[19:27] <eroomde> there is a town called Hell in Missouri, and it's been -11C there for the last few days, and all the water has turned to ice
[19:27] <eroomde> therefore, Hell has frozen over
[19:27] <arko> yes!
[19:28] number10 (0551eaed@gateway/web/freenode/ip.5.81.234.237) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[19:28] <Babs_> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25641310
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[19:29] <mikestir> lol just reading back about the BBC and their units fails. I get really wound up by their constant omission of "degrees" when talking in C, and their insistance on incorrectly adding it when using Kelvin :)
[19:31] <eroomde> there is a possibility we'll be on stargazing live tomorrow
[19:31] <eroomde> not sure if they'll end up using it
[19:31] <Babs_> Did you meet Liz Bonnin
[19:31] <Babs_> ?
[19:32] <daveake> potential serious jealousy alert
[19:33] <eroomde> no
[19:33] <eroomde> though i was at uni with one of the producers
[19:34] <Babs_> I met Jet from Gladiators once. That is my most glamorous TV meet.
[19:34] <eroomde> they filmed a thing about the space-probe vacuum engines that are made at westcott
[19:34] <eroomde> including a test firing
[19:35] <Babs_> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8e0_1306355775&comments=1 37 seconds in is quite good. Off topic and on topic at the same time.
[19:35] <daveake> I've met a TV chef
[19:35] <adamgreig> eroomde: need pics of the Welcome to Hell sign with icicles plz
[19:36] <Babs_> eroomde - i thought of you the other day. there is a review of Spaceship 1 in 2013. Less about their progress, but there is some interesting previously unreleased shots of their test firings that you might find interesting
[19:37] <Babs_> although I might just get some disdain as a result
[19:37] <eroomde> i don't know that it'll be tomorrow, could be tonight or thurs, but tomorrow's bumff says they're talking about interstellar travel
[19:37] <eroomde> so it seems the most likel we'd be in that one if at all
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[19:48] Nick change: davo_ -> davo
[19:54] Action: SpeedEvil did not realise Reaction Engines had a warp drive.
[19:54] <eroomde> it's not REL
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[20:06] <iain_g4sgx> Yay, nightmare SMD soldering done, 8Mhz xtal connected.. Now to connect up the step-up regulator and battery, freeze test, then get a balloon. Which 1.5V battery is best for low temp? Alkaline?
[20:06] <eroomde> energizer lithium ultimate
[20:07] <eroomde> specifically that brand
[20:07] <iain_g4sgx> ok cool, tnx
[20:07] <eroomde> far and away the best performing thing in hab
[20:07] <daveake> the only hab question for which there really is only one answer
[20:08] <eroomde> yep
[20:08] <iain_g4sgx> Excellent, can't wait/
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[20:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> Babs, Just recalulated the times it looks like the Camera was 35 minutes fast given the launch time of 06:10 and the camera time of 06:44
[20:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> does that tally with what you might remember ?
[20:15] <iain_g4sgx> Software is all done and tested, apart for the 2's complement for negative numbers bit. Dont anticipate it being a problem though. Hope to do a test launch in Feb/March.
[20:17] <eroomde> assembler?
[20:17] <adamgreig> eroomde: got a link to that diagram with the guy getting interrupted by someone walking past around?
[20:21] <iain_g4sgx> yep. All 2K of it.
[20:21] <eroomde> http://ubuntuone.com/27zU9Q5Tlqkoohp6cO4sF2
[20:21] <eroomde> iain_g4sgx: nice!
[20:22] <iain_g4sgx> If it flies OK will start on eagle, want make as lightweight as poss.
[20:24] <eroomde> adamgreig: ^
[20:24] <adamgreig> thanks!
[20:32] <Babs_> I'll have a look for the timestamp on the launch video Geoff-G8DHE - as far as I remember it was about 0703 when it finally went off
[20:33] <Babs_> and about 30 seconds later when daveake picked it up
[20:33] <Babs_> and told me that it was going up at about 0.8m/s
[20:33] <Babs_> :-(
[20:33] <Babs_> pah, it got up there in the end
[20:33] <daveake> ah yes
[20:33] <Babs_> but there was a moment when i was going to call on fsphil to pick it up
[20:34] <daveake> I remember wondering where in the sea that was going to come dow
[20:34] <daveake> n
[20:34] <Babs_> it was a good day's tracking though, I really enjoyed it and it was amazing quite how many people had got up to track it
[20:34] <Babs_> daveake - I was lucky that there was no wind I think
[20:34] <daveake> yeah
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[20:37] <Babs_> [06:13] <daveake> ascent rate ... hmm
[20:37] <Babs_> [06:14] <Babs> What's the ascent rate?
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[20:38] <Babs_> [06:14] <daveake> 1.4
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[20:39] <daveake> I was up at that time?
[20:39] <daveake> wow
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[20:45] <fsphil> someday someone will send one here :)
[20:45] <eroomde> annoying the winds often don't help
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[20:47] <fsphil> jcoxon is the only one so far, with a pico
[20:47] <fsphil> and the radio died just as soon as it crossed the coastline
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[20:48] <jcoxon> fsphil, indeed
[20:48] <jcoxon> damn code to up the power
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[20:51] <Babs_> the logs that day are great
[20:52] <Babs_> there are 11 mentions of the word "bacon" - everyone was clearly up way to early
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[21:02] <AdhesiveDisaster> sup
[21:03] <mattbrejza> assuming not as bad as that bit from american pie?
[21:03] <AdhesiveDisaster> no
[21:03] Nick change: AdhesiveDisaster -> Laurenceb_
[21:03] <mattbrejza> good to know
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> just issues with plasticizer
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> tomorrow is heat welding time :D
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> ive had enough of adhesives
[21:04] <mattbrejza> tape?
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> not strong enough
[21:05] <mattbrejza> clearly just needs more tape
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[21:23] <arko> damn leo's not around?
[21:24] <eroomde> tappears non
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[21:33] <eroomde> arko: ^
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[21:43] <arko> ah!
[21:43] <arko> thanks eroomde
[21:43] <arko> LeoBodnar: sir
[21:43] <arko> are the solar panels you are using greater than 4v?
[21:48] <LeoBodnar> they are single cells arko
[21:48] <LeoBodnar> ~0.6v
[21:49] <arko> damn
[21:49] <arko> http://www.linear.com/solutions/1778
[21:49] <arko> wanted to try this
[21:49] <arko> but it requires a 4v
[21:49] <arko> i guess i could put them in series
[21:49] <LeoBodnar> series connect them?
[21:49] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[21:50] <LeoBodnar> expect 0.64V in fullsunlight at altitude at max power point
[21:50] <LeoBodnar> I have a faulty spacebar here so might sound a bit German
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> 0.64 varies a lot. -2mV/C at 70C below room temp, you're up to .79 or something.
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> (cells in bright sun will not remain at that temp)
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> 0.64V at altitude
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> ah
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> 0.55 ish down here
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:52] <LeoBodnar> :D this is from experience but fits theory
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[22:17] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I don't have the MPP voltage on earth memorised
[22:21] <Willdude123> I was thinking about joining raynet
[22:21] <Willdude123> But it sounds ever so slightly boring
[22:22] <mfa298> I'm not sure that's the case.
[22:22] <craag> It can be boring
[22:22] <Willdude123> It's just you don't hear much about them helping out
[22:22] <Willdude123> craag: you a member?
[22:23] <craag> It's technically meant to be training for emergency communications. So it can be sitting by a checkpoint for 6 hours in the rain.
[22:23] <craag> Willdude123: Yes, I do 5 or 6 events a year.
[22:27] <Babs_> Weren't they the group that massively helped out Lockerbie?
[22:27] <craag> Most likely.
[22:28] <craag> They're a group of volunteers training in the use of Amateur Radio for passing emergency communication traffic.
[22:28] <mfa298> and potentially would help out with larger scale flooding although I doubt anything has really got that bad yet
[22:29] <craag> So a lot of the event (eg in the new forest) is not doing anything, until someone falls over and breaks their wrist or something (no phone signal).
[22:30] <craag> Then co-ordinating medical help. (especially when st john's radios don't work...)
[22:31] <craag> There's other bits like calling in numbers of people who are too slow on the marathons and so are no longer covered by the event. And APRS tracking of lead/tail vehicles.
[22:31] <mfa298> we need a large enoguh scale event that it takes out a few mobile base stations, then the use of things like raynet would become more aparent.
[22:32] <craag> mm, last time they were called out was when the southampton telephone exchange broke.
[22:33] <craag> They had an operator in Southampton police hq, with a voice link on 2m with a guy in the police hq in Portsmouth, to pass messages in/out.
[22:33] <Willdude123> craag so you basically want someone to break their wrist so you can help
[22:33] <craag> Willdude123: Well no, but we're there just incase they do.
[22:33] <Willdude123> For one day?
[22:33] <craag> I took along revision last time.
[22:33] <mfa298> When I was newly licensed my local group helped out with a pony trial, where each station basicly said when each rider had passed through the field so the organisers knew how they were progressing around the track (meaning you don't release too many riders at a time)
[22:34] <craag> Although ended up driving a tail vehicle, so didn't get much downtime.
[22:34] <craag> Willdude123: Can vary, I've done 2 hour events and 8 hour events.
[22:34] <Willdude123> right
[22:34] <Willdude123> Do you enjoy it?
[22:35] <craag> I do. A lot of what I do with radio is messing around, and it's a nice contrast to do something a bit more 'professional' and efficient.
[22:35] <craag> Albeit on a volunteer basis.
[22:35] <mfa298> part of the point is it's training in how to pass messages efficiently and accurately.
[22:36] <craag> And it tends to impress interviewers when they think you're a lazy student too
[22:37] <craag> Yes exactly what mfa298 said. You give clear, concise messages. And so can pass a lot of information between lots of people quickly if you have to.
[22:37] <mfa298> It's quite interesting if you look at other radio users and in particular emergency comms, In marine band there's a lot of stuff about emergency comms which isn't even considered in amateur radio
[22:37] <craag> (HF nets are sooo painful to listen to after co-ordinating a raynet freq for the day)
[22:41] <craag> In summary Willdude123 it's definitely not everyone's cup of tea, but I would suggest you give it a try and see what you think.
[22:41] <craag> Contact your local RAYNET group and talk to them about it. They might invite you along to sit at control for a bit during one of their events to get a betrer idea.
[22:41] <craag> *better
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[22:49] <Willdude123> hmm
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[22:50] <Willdude123> craag why they difficult to listen to!
[22:50] <Willdude123> *?
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[22:51] <mfa298> I think craag meant HF nets aren't difficult to listen to more painful due to the lack of any common sense in the people operating them at times
[22:52] <mfa298> where something like Raynet will be done very professionally (especially for amateurs)
[22:53] <Willdude123> Heh
[22:53] <Willdude123> i accidentally called cq on a repeater earlier,
[22:53] <Willdude123> pretty sure it didnt activate it though
[22:54] <mfa298> with pretty much any repeater you should have a pip back after you've spoken
[22:54] <Willdude123> i didnt
[22:54] <Willdude123> I was listening on the websdr too
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[23:09] <Willdude123> congrats guys we cause a polar vortex, thats number one of our agenda crossed off
[23:09] <Willdude123> oops
[23:10] <iain_g4sgx> The Ublox max6 chip, what dya reckon the realistic peak current draw is?
[23:12] <mattbrejza> 70mA or so iirc
[23:13] <iain_g4sgx> ok thanks, is the newer max7 the same?
[23:13] <Upu> no its way less
[23:13] <Upu> peak on 6 is about 55mA
[23:13] <mattbrejza> i think its similar, although its average current is lower after lock (check datasheet for more reliable answer)
[23:14] <Upu> its 25mA on 7
[23:14] <mattbrejza> oh 7 is only 25
[23:14] <Upu> drops to 5-6mA on 1 sec cyclic
[23:14] <mattbrejza> and some other out of context numbers: 5 9.4 32
[23:15] <iain_g4sgx> OK good, ive got some 150mA max chips i would like to use for the step-up. pic, si-4032(40mA) and ublox all at 3.3V. I think it'll be enough and spare.
[23:16] <Upu> should be fine anyway night all
[23:16] <iain_g4sgx> nite & thanks.
[23:17] <mattbrejza> max6 max current = 67mA
[23:18] <mattbrejza> so is max7 actually http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/MAX-7_DataSheet_(GPS.G7-HW-12012).pdf
[23:18] <mattbrejza> ok realistic will be somewhat less
[23:18] <mattbrejza> but a 150mA reg is still fine
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[23:24] <iain_g4sgx> good, i'll give it a go tomorrow. I normally like a 100% leeway but 50% not bad. Gotta crash, gunnite.
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[00:00] --- Wed Jan 8 2014