highaltitude.log.20140102

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[02:44] <arko> figure you guys will like this http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2013/30C3_-_5463_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312281400_-_hillbilly_tracking_of_low_earth_orbit_-_travis_goodspeed.html
[02:53] <WillTablet> arko, I would if my internet could load itl
[03:00] <DL7AD> morning
[03:01] <DL7AD> hey! saw that b-fore arko :)
[03:04] <SpeedEvil> :)
[03:07] <DL7AD> does anyone know how olivia or contestia works?
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[08:09] <DL7AD> morning
[08:12] <gurgalof> morning
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[08:26] <qyx_> Laurenceb: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MAX2769ETI%2B/MAX2769ETI%2B-ND/2349355
[08:26] <qyx_> rf frontend for your gps receiver
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[09:26] <LeoBodnar> good year everybody
[09:26] <fsphil> so far
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[09:38] <DL7AD> happy new year LeoBodnar fsphil :)
[09:38] <fsphil> you too :)
[09:38] <DL7AD> thx :)
[09:41] <LeoBodnar> happy new year DL7AD
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[09:44] <DL7AD> okay. my near year goal is it to overtook leo's serial number :P
[09:44] <DL7AD> *overtake
[09:44] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar:
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[09:45] <LeoBodnar> make it unsigned and count backwards :)
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[09:46] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: anytime the msb will flip :P
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[09:48] <fsphil> I'll hopefully have at least equal my number of launches in 2013
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[11:31] <eroomde_> pong Willdude223
[11:31] Nick change: eroomde_ -> eroomde
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[11:58] <deand83> hi
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[12:02] <fsphil> can't argue with that
[12:02] <daveake> concise, brief and to the point
[12:08] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: Oliver opens the new year with a rocket launch: http://t.co/HAxQVXWbwJ
[12:08] <tweetBot> @RocketEngines #ukhas
[12:14] <eroomde> cool
[12:14] <eroomde> that's ibanezmatt ^
[12:14] <eroomde> well, his baby brother
[12:16] <daveake> start 'em young
[12:16] <daveake> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61bcZ1N6qlL.jpg
[12:16] <eroomde> :)
[12:16] <fsphil> hah
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[13:10] <UpuWork> ping nigelvh
[13:12] <beingaware> CQ CQ CQ
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[13:43] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/f28tUEp.jpg
[13:43] <Laurenceb> daily trollbait
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[13:47] <fsphil> yikes
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[13:58] <Babs> Respect for the blue foam cutting http://www.flickr.com/photos/97969402@N03/10313184316/
[14:03] <fsphil> precise
[14:06] <eroomde> who the guy in the picture to the right, babs?
[14:06] <eroomde> looks awfully like another habber
[14:06] <Laurenceb> arg flickr
[14:07] <Laurenceb> can they make a sane user interface
[14:07] <Laurenceb> NO
[14:07] <eroomde> oh!
[14:07] <eroomde> it's not your flickr, but ibanezmatt's
[14:07] <eroomde> which is who I thought it looked like
[14:07] <eroomde> it is all clear
[14:10] <fsphil> flickr used to be easy
[14:10] <fsphil> they've gone and done a youtube
[14:10] <eroomde> Babs: how's progress with you?
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[14:12] <Babs> Hey eroomde - happy new year!
[14:13] <UpuWork> that looks like a Pi shaped hole Babs
[14:13] <Babs> progress has been zero since the last time I was on here a few months ago. Have had some interesting times at work which has been soaking up time unfortunately.
[14:13] <UpuWork> oh its Matts
[14:13] <fsphil> bad interesting?
[14:13] <Babs> UpuWork - happy new year - not my blue polystyrene, i think it is matt's
[14:14] <Babs> bad interesting yes
[14:14] <fsphil> urg
[14:14] <Babs> happy new year fsphil
[14:14] <fsphil> you too!
[14:14] <fsphil> looking forward to seeing what interesting things appear in 2014
[14:15] <Babs> on the plus side, have learnt how to code like a pro. I bash away the keys now and the code appears like it does in the movies http://hackertyper.net/
[14:15] <Babs> or maybe not
[14:17] <eroomde> you can dream
[14:17] <Babs> I have some nice carbon fibre bits for project eclipse 2017, but I am struggling to find anyone who does short run CNC aluminium. The guy I used last time let me down, does anyone know of any suppliers? I have all of the CAD files ready to go, all of the brushless motors purchased etc.
[14:17] <Babs> dreaming is the only way I will get anywhere near you guys
[14:17] <Babs> the last time i was on matt was coding his first tracker, now...
[14:18] <Babs> he's got some ribbon cable thang going on http://www.flickr.com/photos/97969402@N03/10313185226/
[14:18] <Babs> respect
[14:18] <eroomde> yep, he's into pcb design, has flown a couple of times, and now has the rocket bug
[14:19] <Babs> eroomde, one thing I was able to do was some simple trig work to see what kind of view we might get from eclipse balloon thing
[14:19] <fsphil> we need more rockets here
[14:20] <Babs> using this http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/1456244.htm?CMPID=GS001&_$ja=cgid:9102843062|tsid:41408|cid:177575462|lid:54873383093|nw:g|crid:32320257662|rnd:8978447881877296816|dvc:c|adp:1o1 with a 91 field of view
[14:20] <eroomde> nice
[14:20] <eroomde> fsphil: agreed
[14:20] <eroomde> we can hope
[14:21] <Babs> then to see a 115km wide eclipse shadow to fill 45 degrees of the 91 degree field, at 30km you need to be 100km away
[14:21] <Laurenceb> any idea on camera?
[14:22] <fsphil> or multiple cameras
[14:22] <Babs> for the eclipse laurenceb?
[14:22] <Laurenceb> when i looked at this it looked pretty demanding
[14:22] <eroomde> with luck you could get that 100km if the winds behave, and launch from somewhere on the path of totality itself
[14:22] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:22] <Laurenceb> 8bit stuff just didnt seem to cut it
[14:22] <fsphil> it would be very cool if the winds carry it along with the eclipse
[14:22] <Babs> i was looking at this one http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/canon-unveils-eos-m2-in-china-and-japan-1204837
[14:23] <Laurenceb> powershot G1 looked useful when i looked
[14:23] <Babs> yes, or the powershot. something that uses magic lantern or chdk
[14:23] <Laurenceb> G1 sensor is epic
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[14:24] <Laurenceb> http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/G1_X
[14:24] <Babs> the bizarre thing planning so far ahead is that really its only good enough for testing. by the time you get to 2017 the cameras available will dwarf that one in terms of capability
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[14:24] <Laurenceb> maybe
[14:25] <Laurenceb> def at the low end
[14:25] <Laurenceb> but at the pro end, not so sure
[14:25] <Babs> but the camera cage I have done will basically hold anything with the same cube as the eos m or the powershot, so hopefully I can use the frame for a few launches ahead of the main one as a test
[14:26] <Babs> all of the carbon fibre stuff looks quite nice http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/sets/72157636929911016/ I just need to get the aluminium connector bits machined out to link it all together
[14:27] <eroomde> it looks great
[14:27] <Babs> I figure planting outselves in Wisconsin or something, looking at where the prevailing wind is and launching it so it drifts over the centre line of totality when the centre of the shadow is about 100km away
[14:27] <Babs> *ourselves
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[14:27] <Babs> the guy machined a whole A3 sheet for me for £28. great service.
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[14:28] <eroomde> that's really very good
[14:29] <Babs> got 3 of these to move through the camera through 3 axes http://www.iflight-rc.com/product/iPower-GBM-Motors-iPower-GBM3506H-130T-Hollow-Shaft.html
[14:30] <eroomde> 130 turns!
[14:30] <eroomde> so they must be rewoud
[14:30] <eroomde> rewound*
[14:30] <eroomde> especially
[14:30] <eroomde> oh yeah der, they say 'gimbal motor' on them
[14:32] <Babs> yes, they are especially made for gimbals, the cool thing is the hole through the middle. using a slip ring (thanks Laurenceb) which fits into the aluminium bit you can basically route all of the wiring through the middle of the motor. its quite neat.
[14:33] <Babs> how is yoour business going eroomde? I would say "is it taking off" but even my puns are not that bad
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[14:35] <eroomde> busy final few months mostly doing paperwork
[14:35] <eroomde> kickoff payment for actually making stuff should arrive in the next few days
[14:35] <eroomde> so it should be a year of making things, which will be nice
[14:36] <eroomde> there is A Lot To Do...
[14:36] <Babs> do you primarily make it in house, or is it mostly outsourced to specialists?
[14:36] <eroomde> I am the specialist
[14:36] <eroomde> :)
[14:37] <eroomde> we do basic CNC stuff inhouse, but reaction engines owns a CNC firm with fancy-pants 5-axis stuff, which we use for lots of things
[14:37] <eroomde> we will do all the electronics and instrumention in house, and all the plumbing
[14:37] <Babs> Stallone or Stone ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Specialist
[14:37] <eroomde> there's a lot of plumbing
[14:38] <Babs> are you using plumbing in terms of liquid movement, or threading wires around stuff?
[14:38] <eroomde> very much both
[14:38] <eroomde> we have many kg/second of gas to move around
[14:38] <eroomde> which is a lot when it's a gas
[14:38] <Babs> Make it a liquid
[14:38] <eroomde> and many kg/s of stuff in liquid phase too
[14:39] <Babs> I went to see this firm once http://www.bf1systems.com/
[14:39] <eroomde> there will be hundreds of high pressure hoses, and we'll probably keep swagelok afloat for another year
[14:39] <eroomde> competing with Shell as a customer
[14:39] <Babs> they were doing some pretty cool stuff embedding wiring harnesses within sheets of carbon fibre before it was cured
[14:39] <eroomde> that's pretty cool...
[14:40] <Babs> it was all about eliminating the possiblity for wire breakage undere high stress applications such as yours
[14:40] <eroomde> i was actually looking at soemthing similar wrt rocket fins
[14:40] <eroomde> http://www.bf1systems.com/index.php?pag=products&catID=6
[14:40] <Babs> I imagine however that they didn't need as much redundancy as you would probably use
[14:40] <eroomde> those are exactly the sort of cables and harnesses we make for things
[14:41] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pcanvln4or8970u/cutdowns.JPG
[14:41] <eroomde> on the right there
[14:41] <eroomde> milspec circular connectors are an addictive habit, but they're *really* good for when i counts
[14:42] <Babs> sweet. are you building those yourself?
[14:42] <eroomde> yes, those are a product we do
[14:42] <eroomde> we get the pcbs made out, but I assemble them, and do the cables and boxes
[14:43] <eroomde> the quantity is low enough that it's not really worth getting a bacth of 50 made out, and I quite like the diversion
[14:43] <Babs> READY. WAIT. FAULT. no messing with those indicators.
[14:43] <eroomde> yes, i like to keep the UI simple :)
[14:44] <Babs> You should have a FUBAR one for the prototype.
[14:44] <Babs> just in case
[14:44] <eroomde> it has a lot of self-check, that board, so it can check all of it's power supplies are at the right voltage, that the hot-wires have the right resistence (not being so would indicate a kink or a break or something), it asks the ublox lots of different questions about its health, and various other thngs
[14:45] <eroomde> i have a header for an FTDI cable on the left
[14:45] <eroomde> that's for prototype debugging
[14:45] <eroomde> and there's a pattern of flashes that indicates what the fault is
[14:46] <eroomde> though thankfully it hardly ever happens, but it did happen once quite recently, when the customer got a resistence fault
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[14:46] <bertrik> is there some kind of standard for that? (and for the LED colors?)
[14:46] <eroomde> turns out that re-used a spent hot-wire, whose surface had therefore got horribly oxidised
[14:46] <eroomde> bertrik: i just copied traffic lights
[14:46] <eroomde> red for fault, yellow for wait (while the gps is getting a lock) and green for deploy
[14:46] <Laurenceb> Babs: do you have specs on the torque of those motors?
[14:47] <eroomde> these things attach to tethered blimps and bring them down if they accidently escape their moorings
[14:48] <Babs> Laurenceb - no, I actually only have two of the ones above, and then I bought one of these http://www.iflight-rc.com/product/iPower-Brushless-Motor-iPower%20GBM-Motor-iPower-GBM4006-150T.html
[14:48] Action: Laurenceb was thinking of using pancake steppers
[14:48] <Laurenceb> ver light tho
[14:48] <Babs> i was just going on the camera weight rating as a guide
[14:49] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:49] <Laurenceb> well it seems to work ok on quadcopters
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[14:49] <Babs> the issue with the steppers is that they move too slowly]
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[14:49] <Laurenceb> huh
[14:49] <Babs> I've tried servos first, then steppers
[14:50] <Laurenceb> servos are noisy
[14:50] <Laurenceb> how were you driving the steppers?
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[14:51] <Babs> just with a bit of code i knocked up (EDIT: it was pretty simple, if the IMU detects its 30 degrees to the horizontal, move 30 degrees the other way, that kind of thing)
[14:51] <Laurenceb> i see
[14:51] <Babs> You could probably do something a bit smarter by effectively looking at the rate of change of angle and switching from full step to half step to quarter step mode
[14:51] <Babs> depending on the rate of change
[14:51] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:51] <Babs> but it will still be slower
[14:52] <eroomde> PD
[14:52] <Laurenceb> if you use a decent controller you can microstep at a few Mhz
[14:52] <Laurenceb> i do it with linear steppers
[14:52] <eroomde> i have just finished makign such a controller, i should point out
[14:52] <Laurenceb> but then you need acceleration based control and stuff
[14:52] <Babs> this russian guy has basically worked out a way of rapidly altering the voltages in a brushless motor to effectively use it as a rapid stepper
[14:52] <Laurenceb> it does get quite complex
[14:52] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:52] <Laurenceb> but its basically just a huge stepper
[14:52] <Laurenceb> i.e. huge steps
[14:53] <Babs> http://www.basecamelectronics.com/
[14:53] <Laurenceb> imo the advantage is low mass
[14:53] <Laurenceb> due to use of decent magnets
[14:53] <eroomde> and you can input a vector to hold it very accurately
[14:53] <Laurenceb> but other than that it seems a bit heath robinson to me
[14:54] <gonzo_o> is that not the way microstepping works for std steppers?
[14:54] <eroomde> there is also a neat trick with the control system whereby you can charge a capacitor up to, say a few times the rated motor voltage, such that it provide a high voltage pulse into the winds at the start of each pulse
[14:54] <Laurenceb> eroomde: soon as it gets some torque it wont hold it
[14:54] <Babs> the control is pretty good for a quad copter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wdf-Xr1Z8k
[14:54] <eroomde> Laurenceb: read above
[14:54] <Laurenceb> eroomde: nice
[14:54] <Babs> there is a further option on his board where you can effectively add a varying voltage on top and fix it around a certain angle
[14:54] <eroomde> this gets the torque applied far more quickly, since torque is directly propertional to current, and V = L*di/dt
[14:54] <Laurenceb> i need to add that to my linear controller
[14:55] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:55] <Laurenceb> nice work
[14:55] <eroomde> so high V increases the rate of chage of current, therefore there speed at which you can dynamically apply a torque
[14:55] <eroomde> good for high-bandwidth systems
[14:55] <eroomde> of which there are a few such on the next rocket rig
[14:55] <Laurenceb> ive just been using 24V and a switching scheme
[14:55] <eroomde> which is why i've been messing with it
[14:55] <Laurenceb> but that woulds maybe nicer
[14:56] <Laurenceb> is this for linear actuators?
[14:56] <eroomde> yes
[14:56] <eroomde> for valves
[14:56] <Laurenceb> groovy
[14:56] <eroomde> moving a pintle in and out
[14:56] <Laurenceb> ah
[14:56] <eroomde> using a 15kW hacker brushless motor
[14:56] <Laurenceb> omg
[14:56] <eroomde> very small for thew power
[14:56] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:57] <Laurenceb> big gearbox?
[14:57] <Laurenceb> or just a leadscrew?
[14:57] <eroomde> ballscrew
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[14:57] <Laurenceb> cool
[14:57] <eroomde> although the quote SKF gave nearly made me cry
[14:58] <nigelvh> pong UpuWork
[15:04] <eroomde> Babs: this wire-in-composites things is cool
[15:05] <Babs> they were just developing it when i went there (2008 or something), not sure how far they got
[15:05] <Babs> i thought it was a clever idea
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[15:06] <Babs> particularly with airframes, the biggest cause of wiring failures was either vibration fatigue or engineers using them as a climbing frames
[15:06] <Babs> they were eliminating both by popping them in the superstructure
[15:06] <eroomde> yeah
[15:07] <Babs> in fact, if there is still a link to the bike on there, they were using that as the development tool for wire in composites
[15:07] <eroomde> one of the standard wires we use, that is sused in motorsport and aerospace, is RayChem Spec55 (it's excellent btw, for hab too). It has two walls of insulation, each of contrasting colour, such that any vibration against an abrasive surface of the outer should cause wear to reveal the contrasting colour beneath.
[15:07] <Babs> here you go http://www.bf1systems.com/index.php?pag=products&catID=8
[15:07] <eroomde> it is pleasingly effective, but surprising as a result at how much wear there is in such environments
[15:08] <eroomde> and I need to read jack kerouac or something to stop me involuntarily sounding like jane austin, who i've just been reading
[15:08] <eroomde> i once spent 2 months in dudley and even my accent started to drift
[15:08] <eroomde> to my horror
[15:09] <Babs> the other advantage is of course that you don't need weights of connectors and things to hold the wires in place, which for planes and f1 is great
[15:09] <Babs> my mom was born in dudley. watch it.
[15:09] <Babs> or wotch at, as people in dudlayy say
[15:09] <eroomde> what's the difference between a buffalo and a bison?
[15:09] <eroomde> you can't wash your face in a buffalo
[15:10] <Babs> you can't wash your face in a buffalo. don't waste my time.
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[15:10] <eroomde> my mum was born in norfolk. so i shall retire back to my glass house
[15:10] <Babs> what do you call a Chinese man who lives halfway between Stourbridge and Halesowen?
[15:11] <eroomde> dunno
[15:11] <Babs> Yow Min Lye
[15:11] <Babs> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/preview#!data=!1m4!1m3!1d63122!2d-2.0567711!3d52.4487085
[15:12] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRkkVQ6OSE
[15:14] <Babs> There was this awesome hack of the Star Wars game for the commodore amiga where they had taken out all of the star wars samples from the film and instead replaced it with a guy with a thick midlands accent telling you to "Yowze thu Foarce", that kind of thing
[15:14] <fsphil> aaah those where the days. replacing sound samples in games with farting noises
[15:15] Action: LazyLeopard is back from a hot dusty but interesting safari...
[15:16] <fsphil> to wales?
[15:16] <Babs> Hot dusty? http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1418577
[15:17] <Babs> (safe for work folks)
[15:18] <fsphil> it has my names on it
[15:18] <fsphil> -s
[15:18] <fsphil> PHILIPS
[15:18] <LazyLeopard> Heh. Just north of the equator, with a view of Mt. Kenya...
[15:18] <fsphil> oh nice
[15:19] <LazyLeopard> ....away from wind, rain, floods, and so on. Not looking forward to trying to dry out my garage when I get home, though...
[15:20] <fsphil> eek
[15:20] <fsphil> underwater?
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[15:32] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[15:33] <LazyLeopard> Back patio was under just enough water for some to get under the back door to the garage, or so my friends who've taken a look tell me...
[15:35] <eroomde> i'm hoping oxford will be fine when I get back
[15:35] <LazyLeopard> Just enough must have been 8 inches at the deepest point, which is at least acouple of inches higher than I've ever see it before...
[15:36] <eroomde> twitter is silent on the matter which i take as good news
[15:36] <eroomde> it was flooded with news when last there was news of flooding
[15:37] <LazyLeopard> Riiiight....
[15:38] <eroomde> i nearly shared my downstairs with the Thames, a few months ago
[15:38] <LazyLeopard> Not seen a Net connection since early last Friday, so no idea whether the second bout of wet-n-windy was worse than the first
[15:38] <eroomde> whereas I prefer our relationaship be strictly neighbourly
[15:39] <LazyLeopard> Yes, rivers don't make good flatmates...
[15:40] <eroomde> I hope your garage has survived
[15:40] <eroomde> moreover its contents
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[15:57] <Willdude223> Hello
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[16:00] <Willdude223> Someone seems to be doing simplex on the same frequency as GB3ET
[16:01] <Willdude223> Maybe it's just another repeater
[16:02] <mfa298> you should normally hear a pip at the end of each over if its a repeater
[16:03] <Willdude223> Hmm. Not sure
[16:03] <Willdude223> eroomde: is there anywhere that explains Fourier analysis relatively simply? I sort of need a reference
[16:03] <mfa298> listening via the websdr it could be intermod from somewhere else.
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> Willdude223: you mean the actual maths - or do you mean the basic concepts?
[16:04] <mfa298> I think ed's description the other day is
[16:04] <mfa298> was pretty decent (hit enter too soon there)
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> yeah - do you have that archived - I'd reread
[16:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://habhub.org/zeusbot/
[16:07] <iain_g4sgx> Afternoon chaps. I think I'm nearly ready to do a test flight of my prototype tracker. Any recommendations on a small balloon? Its about 35g (without batteries), runs on 3.3V. If it works I'll start on the PCB.
[16:08] <fsphil> 100g balloon will get you a nice short flight up to about 25kmish
[16:08] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/calc/
[16:08] <iain_g4sgx> Excellent, will i need to file a notice or anything for that size?
[16:09] <fsphil> maybe closer to 21km with a good ascent rate
[16:09] <fsphil> yea
[16:09] <fsphil> I believe they expand to greater than 2m before bursting
[16:10] <eroomde> Willdude223: yeah, my explanation of fourier analysis is probably what I think is intuitively the best way to understand what's going on
[16:10] <eroomde> in as much as it's the result of me trying to think about it in a visual way
[16:11] <eroomde> you will come across phrases and concepts like the 'DFT' (Discrete Fourier Transform) and the 'FFT' (fast fourier transform) but they're all 'just' algorithms that do what I described
[16:12] <eroomde> infact if you look at my talk at the ukhas conference, I sort of explained the same thing though in a more rushed way, during the first half of the talk
[16:12] <eroomde> infact yes, watch that. it arrived at the (sort of but not quite) discrete fourier transform, but thinking about it in a different way, in terms of 'correlations' with sinusoids
[16:13] <eroomde> between those two things, you might find a method of visualising it that you find more agreeable
[16:13] <eroomde> and DO ASK QUESTIONS, I am here to help
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[16:13] <SpeedEvil> It's wierd how helping can really clarify your own understnading
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[16:14] <eroomde> totally
[16:14] <eroomde> going over the basics is a great way to firm up your understanding of things that are built on those basic concepts
[16:17] <eroomde> 'basics' is probably not the best word, more like the nodes from which lots of other concepts spring
[16:17] <mfa298> going for something a bit more radio related, if you think of a radio signal (ssb/am is easiest) you have some sort of signal modulated on a carier signal, if you looked at it on an osciliscope you're looking at the time domain and get the sum of a collection of sinewaves (carier +/- one per frequency).
[16:18] <mfa298> trying to understand that in a meaningful way can be difficult. But if you convert into the frequency domain (using Fourier) you get much more useful plots like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SSB_bandform.svg
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[16:20] <eroomde> this blog post has a nice way of thinking about it too
[16:20] <eroomde> http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2011/05/17/understanding-the-fourier-transform/
[16:20] <fsphil> I wrote a software fm demodulator based on the ideas in that gps talk
[16:20] <eroomde> really?
[16:20] <eroomde> that's made my day
[16:20] <eroomde> awesome
[16:20] <fsphil> yea - looking at the IQ signal it sorta became obvious how to calculate the phase changes
[16:20] <fsphil> or frequency changes. same thing really
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[16:20] <eroomde> yeah
[16:21] <fsphil> I suppose what I actually wrote was a PM demodulator
[16:21] <eroomde> frequency is just the rate of change of phase
[16:21] <eroomde> well, FM is sometimes called 'angle modulation'
[16:21] <mfa298> it was quite a revelation when we got to fourier when I was at uni, I'd seen the two different representations of signals as part of the RAE and other bits of radio. Suddenly I had the tool that made those two types of plot make sense by linking them together.
[16:22] <eroomde> yes
[16:22] <eroomde> transforms in general are one of those things
[16:22] <eroomde> here's a cool thing
[16:22] <eroomde> i might have explained this before
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[16:22] <eroomde> if you take the gaussian distribution
[16:23] <eroomde> http://ocw.tufts.edu/data/1/194069/194111_xlarge.jpg
[16:23] <eroomde> pretend it's a time-based signal
[16:23] <bertrik> I remember how the equations for sin^2 and cos^2, suddenly made a lot more sense after understanding complex math
[16:23] <eroomde> so like a voltage that goes up and then down according to that curve
[16:24] <eroomde> bertrik: totally. e is the key to lots of things
[16:24] <eroomde> anyway back to this cool thing
[16:24] <eroomde> so take that gaussian curve, pretend it represents a time-based signal
[16:24] <eroomde> you can describe its 'tightness' by describits is standard deviation, the sigma symbol in the diagram
[16:25] <eroomde> so you can deribe it has having a standard deviation of 3s, say, that means about 68% of the area under that curve occures in the middle 3 seconds
[16:26] <eroomde> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Standard_deviation_diagram.svg
[16:26] <eroomde> this is the better diagram
[16:26] <eroomde> 68% occurs in +/- 1 standard deviation, i should say
[16:26] <eroomde> ok cool, so let's just call the standard deviation sigma, for the sake of arguement
[16:27] <eroomde> so we're pretending this is a time based signal, sigma could be a useful number for how well we think we know the position of this pulse in time
[16:27] <eroomde> is sigma is really large (say 10s) we are not so confident about the exact position of this pulse in time
[16:28] <eroomde> if sigma is really small (say 0.1s) then we are comparatively more confident of the position in time of the pulse
[16:28] <eroomde> because it means the pulse is taller and thinner, because the area underneath a gassian must always be 1
[16:28] <eroomde> so if you reduce the sigma - the uncertainty - you increases the height of the mean point
[16:28] <eroomde> so that the area remeains 1
[16:28] <eroomde> anyway, i'm labouring this
[16:28] <eroomde> here comes the cool bit
[16:29] <eroomde> if you take the fourier transform of a gassian, its frequency-domain representation is *also* a gaussian
[16:30] <eroomde> but this time, if the time-domain gaussian has a standard deviation of 'a', then its fouriter transform will have a standard diation of '1/a'
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[16:30] <eroomde> i.e. the higher the confidence of the time domain pulse, the low the confidence of the frequency-domain pulse, and vice versa
[16:31] <eroomde> so that measn that the better you know the position of sometime in time, the less well you know its frequency, and the better you know it's frequency, the less well you know it's position
[16:31] <eroomde> this is heisenburgs uncertainty principle
[16:31] <eroomde> and this is also how he showed it - with the fouriter transform of gaussians
[16:31] <eroomde> fourier*
[16:32] <eroomde> you can show the position/momentum have the same relationship is position-in-time and frequency
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[16:33] <Willdude223> eroomde: right wilco
[16:33] <eroomde> to get to the more usual statement of the principle, that the more accuractely you know a particle's position, the less accurately you know its momentum
[16:33] <eroomde> anyway, i think that's really elegant and lovely
[16:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/P1080929.jpg
[16:33] <Laurenceb> sex god
[16:34] <UpuWork> that was my idea :)
[16:34] <eroomde> thanks for restoring the tone, Laurenceb
[16:35] <bertrik> there are a couple more cool relations between time and frequency domains, like how a repetitive signal in one domain shows up as a discrete signal in the other domain (both ways)
[16:35] <iain_g4sgx> When I did electronics at uni, I loved it when I suddenly saw the connections in maths of seemingly seperate approaches, like that, even if I couldn't keep them fixed for long.
[16:36] <bertrik> and how multiplication in one domain is equivalent to convolution in the other
[16:36] <eroomde> iain_g4sgx: i know exactly what you mean
[16:37] <eroomde> you have these sort of fleeting periods for a few seconds when you feel like you can see god
[16:37] <mfa298> I think when we came accross fourier first almost everyone else was "eh? whats that useful for" and I was more like "wow, so that's how that works"
[16:37] <eroomde> and then you're not so sure again
[16:37] <eroomde> well, i had a false start with fourier transforms
[16:38] <eroomde> cam had high expectations of your insight, so they didn't dilly-dally explaining what it was all for
[16:38] <eroomde> our lecturer just went to the blackboard and launched straight in with zero motivation
[16:38] <eroomde> 'consider some orthogonal say, phi, ...'
[16:38] <eroomde> orthogonal set*
[16:39] <eroomde> however i appreciate that in hindsight because that it just had to me an orthogonal set, or which sin and cos waves are just one example, to work as a transform, was a useful insight
[16:39] <Willdude223> eroomde: is there a bit missing from the start?
[16:39] <eroomde> and that you could use other stuff instead, if you wanted
[16:39] <eroomde> Willdude223: i'm not sure
[16:39] <eroomde> the important stuff starts after the throwing around of paper aeroplanes
[16:40] <mfa298> I'm not sure southampton was that good always, we tended to learn the maths in a maths module which covered all engineering, and hopefully the timing matched other modules where you used that maths (communications stuff as part of electronics in my case for fourier)
[16:40] <iain_g4sgx> I managed S-level maths, some 30 years ago, but it was no preperation for the Systems analysis of the Uni course needed. It was my weakest bit alas.
[16:41] Nick change: davo_ -> davo
[16:41] <eroomde> but yes, the 'consider some orthogonal set, phi' basically lost everyone in the room
[16:41] <eroomde> and we got out of that lecture feeling like we'd been in, and lost, a fight
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[16:41] <eroomde> that lecturer ended up being my favourite one in 4th year
[16:41] <eroomde> he was perfect for that
[16:42] <eroomde> but he just had a total impedance mis-match with first-year students
[16:42] <mfa298> iain_g4sgx: doing the maths isn't a strong point for me either but its certainly a good thing when the principles of what it's trying to do makes sense with what you already know.
[16:42] <eroomde> maths is, at least at my level, still just encoding a concept i visually understand with some formal notation
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[16:43] <eroomde> and i'm really bad at learnign it if i don't have the visual understanding
[16:43] <eroomde> *however* I definitely need the formal maths, the rules for manipulation, so be able to play with stuff when i don't understand it
[16:43] <Willdude223> eroomde: I'm just reading a howstuffworks article on GPS then I will watch the talk
[16:43] <eroomde> in the hope that i can poke and prod it into something that i can then understand, then work backwards
[16:43] <eroomde> Willdude223: don't
[16:44] <iain_g4sgx> I had a mate doing the same electronics course as me, liked the maths and changed courses to physics, now working at CERN.
[16:44] <eroomde> the first half of the tal, apart from paper aeroplaness, has nothing to do with gps
[16:44] <eroomde> it's just a quick overview of signal processing
[16:44] <mfa298> southampton might have made the engineering maths easier initially, the first semester was a self guided (with help if needed) that basicly recapped A-level maths. But I think interesting stuff like Fourier, Laplace and Nyquist all appeared in the 2nd year for engineering.
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[16:45] <Willdude223> eroomde: it starts with the triangulation bit so I presumed it was GPS
[16:46] <eroomde> yeah, i wrote the whole talk in a huge hurry the day before, forgive the random order
[16:46] <bertrik> I studied electrical engineering (which is basically a mix of math, information theory, physics) and I often get the feeling that I still don't quite understand some of the fundamental principles
[16:46] <eroomde> it does a bit of the concept of how gps works, and then dives into signal stuff
[16:46] <eroomde> that's why it was OHP slides i could draw on the way down in the bus
[16:47] <eroomde> rather than on a computer
[16:47] <eroomde> bertrik: information theory was my happy thing, mathematically
[16:47] <Willdude223> I tend to forget a lot of stuff.
[16:47] <eroomde> that's what pulled me more into maths and almost philosophy
[16:47] <iain_g4sgx> I think there is a Eureka moment with maths, if you're lucky. I think most learn the rules and relationships and get away with it.
[16:48] <eroomde> i also had David Mackay as a lecturer, which was *fanstastic*
[16:48] <Willdude223> I forgot most of the physics stuff I did but I still remember problem solving methods i.e. I'd know what equation to use but I wouldn't neccessarily know it off by heart
[16:48] <eroomde> and similarly fantastic is that there are now video lectures of his course online
[16:48] <eroomde> which are so brilliant, i recommend them
[16:49] <eroomde> almost
[16:49] <eroomde> http://videolectures.net/course_information_theory_pattern_recognition/
[16:49] <Willdude223> Like yesterday I read US History for Dummies. I don't remember half the names and dates and events.
[16:49] <eroomde> he wrote probably the best text book on information theory
[16:49] <eroomde> Willdude223: you won't, it's concepts that count
[16:50] <Willdude223> But I still have a rough idea on how colonisation happened which I guess is important
[16:50] <eroomde> and being able to really understand them, which i do by visualisation, that measn you don't forget them
[16:52] <eroomde> bertrik: but yep, his text book is really great
[16:52] <eroomde> free online
[16:52] <eroomde> though good enough to have a copy at work and a copy at home
[16:52] <eroomde> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/itila/
[16:52] <mfa298> Willdude223: certainly with maths/engineering the important thing in real life is knowing what tools to use and how to use them. If you've got to lookup the equation in a book that's not an issue.
[16:53] <mfa298> if it's the other way around and you know lots of equations off by heart but don't know how to use them you'll have problems.
[16:53] <bertrik> I was told at the start of my electrical engineering studies that electrical engineerng is the art of knowing what is important and what can be ignored :)
[16:54] <bertrik> like having a feeling what order of magnitude a certain effect is
[16:54] <eroomde> yes, we got that too
[16:55] <eroomde> the very first meeting with our directory of studies, he got us to estimate the mass of the earth, just to within an order of magnitude
[16:55] <eroomde> but without 'knowing' things like the radius of the earth directly
[16:55] <eroomde> but estimating it from, say, knowing it takes 5 hours to fly to new york at 600mph
[16:56] <eroomde> or whatever
[16:56] <fsphil> that could be tricky
[16:57] <eroomde> well, you can sort of reason that iron is about an order of magnitude more dense than water, by visualising a floating hull
[16:57] <eroomde> and you can sort of say that the density of the earth is the density of iron, roughly
[16:57] <mfa298> sounds like a good challenge of logic and reasoning.
[16:58] <eroomde> and you can sort of say that NY is about 1/4-1/5s the circumference of the earth from london
[16:58] <eroomde> and you can sort of terefore get a number for the mass of the earth that's within about an order of magnitude
[16:58] <eroomde> just about
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[16:59] <eroomde> but yeah he was right in stressing the importance of that, that you often won't know everything you need to, but there's a skill in being able to quickly generate non-stupid estimates that you can later refine
[16:59] <eroomde> if only i could do it for budgets
[17:00] <eroomde> i think 99% of the value of a good engineer is to be able to design something good enough to prove it's fine on the back of an envelope, where possible
[17:00] <eroomde> and not resort to, computer stress simulation to make a fork-lift jig
[17:00] <eroomde> but instead just design it so you can show it'll definitely be strong enough just with some quick napkin calcs
[17:01] <eroomde> and thus save a day of computer analysis
[17:01] <eroomde> not everyone i work with understands this
[17:01] <eroomde> but a lot of the good engineers I've met do
[17:01] <mfa298> there's certainly something to be said for being able to get a quick ball park design in all aspects of engineering.
[17:01] <eroomde> and save the computer simulations for when every gram counts
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[17:08] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: quite. 'how many piano tuners are there in birmingham' type of answers.
[17:10] <mfa298> I remember seeing an interesting demonstation along those lines a few years ago on TV of sampling techniques to get a really good answer (no idea what show it was on now)
[17:11] <eroomde> that sounds quit heavy for a tv show!
[17:13] <mfa298> I think it was a fairly simple form of sampling but showed the principle involved.
[17:13] <eroomde> there's a whole section in mackay on sampling
[17:13] <eroomde> it's very interesting
[17:13] <eroomde> really, i love that book
[17:13] <eroomde> it is several books in one book
[17:14] <mfa298> from memory it was like most TV science/maths things it gives you enough to get you intested then leaves you dangling wanting to know more.
[17:15] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
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[17:23] <Willdude223> I still don't get why nobody has implemented mosh on windows properly
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> Nobody cared.
[17:25] <Willdude223> SpeedEvil: I guess most people who want it are using linux
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> Someone has to do the work - fundamentally.
[17:26] <Willdude223> Are most people using windows not smart enough to make one then? :P
[17:26] <mfa298> mosh fills a fairly niche role and I suspect most people who care aren't using windows.
[17:26] <mfa298> for most windows people accessing a remote system means rdp or vnc
[17:27] <mfa298> rdp copes with a connection dropping (although needs a reasonable bandwidth to be useable)
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[17:33] <Willdude223> Typical - when we try and prove to TalkTalk that our intertubes are broken, the logs don't show what they used to :)
[17:34] <mfa298> always copy and paste / screenshot the logs
[17:34] <mfa298> then again I don't bother with that as my router has good logging.
[17:35] <mfa298> and remote logging (syslog ftw!)
[17:35] <Willdude223> I could set up a remote logging server
[17:35] <Willdude223> It can do that
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[17:38] <mfa298> if it can that could be useful. I didn't think many home routers offered that option.
[17:39] <Willdude223> mfa298: you just need to go on advanced options.
[17:39] <Willdude223> I'd only have thought that's useful is networks with multiple routers
[17:39] <Willdude223> http://pastie.org/8593995 caught it
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[17:40] <mfa298> it's also useful if the router doesn't keep logs for long or accross reboots
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[17:41] <mfa298> if it can send syslog logs to a remote server then that's fairly esay to enable on a linux machine you usually just have to reconfigure a few things.
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[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[18:28] <fsphil> YOOO
[18:29] <Willdude223> YOOO
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[18:53] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:53] <Lunar_Lander> happy new year
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[20:00] <Willdude223> Cane anyone help me ascertain why my program is hanging on the timeit function? http://pastie.org/private/0tuqsojrguzp8y8a9hkkw
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[20:01] <Willdude223> I know it's a bit off-topic but #python will go all "It's not PEP-8!!!"
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[20:08] <eroomde> did the program successfully download the file before you added the timing bit?
[20:08] <eroomde> Willdude223
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[20:23] <Willdude223> eroomde: seems it
[20:23] <Willdude223> eroomde: I tried it on my server and it downloaded successfully without the time bit
[20:24] <Willdude223> Yup definitely a problem with timing
[20:24] <Willdude223> I change the name of time= to something else and that wasn't the issue
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[20:28] <adamgreig> hey Laurenceb are you around?
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[22:48] <ike> hi guys
[22:52] <eroomde> hello ike
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[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> hi ike
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> hej Reb-SM3ULC
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> happy new year
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[23:12] <ike> I know that a lot of you have played with si4432 modules
[23:12] <ike> so I was wondering how fast can you change it's frequency
[23:12] <ike> I know they can output constant carrier
[23:13] <mattbrejza> well they support up to the 100s of kbit so at least that fast
[23:14] <eroomde> ah but changing the carrier can be much slower
[23:14] <mikestir> but only to a resolution of 150Hz or so
[23:14] <ike> and there is APRS in UHF Secondary 432.500 MHz since 2008 where ISM is too bad on 433.800 (CT08_C5_Rec32) http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=Frequencies
[23:15] <ike> I know that is not widely used
[23:15] <ike> but some day
[23:15] <ike> ...
[23:15] <fsphil> there will be very very few igates on 70cm
[23:15] <fsphil> if any at all
[23:16] <mfa298> I think when I looked a few months ago it looked like there had been one in the UK once.
[23:17] <ike> it can be made cheap igate, because uhf radios are now like $18-20
[23:17] <eroomde> http://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-LINK-TL-WA801ND-300Mbps-Wireless-Access/dp/B003HVKTWI
[23:17] <eroomde> whoops
[23:18] <mfa298> but there you have a catch 22, no igates as there's no 70cms aprs traffic, and no 70cms igates as no traffic.
[23:18] <mfa298> >99% of all aprs traffic is on the various 2m frequencies
[23:19] <fsphil> the existing aprs network on 144.800 is the only single positive feature of aprs
[23:19] <fsphil> outside 144.800 anything else is better
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[23:32] <ike> does the Raspberry Pi have any ADC or audio input?
[23:32] <WillTablet> eroomde: I sorted out that code
[23:32] <mfa298> no standard audio input and I don't think there's an accessible ADC (can't remember if there's one at all)
[23:33] <WillTablet> It was trying to do it a thousand times by default
[23:33] <eroomde> oh yes, timeit does that
[23:33] <eroomde> now you mention it :)
[23:33] <WillTablet> :-)
[23:33] <WillTablet> It's running right now
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> ike: you can do sort-of-analog input with a GPIO and a RC
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> but not well
[23:34] <ike> SpeedEvil I think it's not verry well for AFSK ;)
[23:34] <ike> 1200bps
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> Well - I2C works
[23:35] <WillTablet> eroomde: we are running it for 24 hours to check that our connection really is crap and that the dropouts on the router are definitely what is going wrong
[23:35] <mfa298> you can add ADC or whatever via I2C or SPI
[23:35] <eroomde> WillTablet: good thinking
[23:36] <ike> WillTablet you can get this http://www.samknows.com/broadband/index.php to tell you how bad is your internet
[23:36] <WillTablet> ike: I smell bullsh*t but I'll look into it
[23:36] <ike> mfa298 yes, I can think that I can hook msp430 to SPI line
[23:37] <ike> I was wondering how cheap is to make UHF APRS igate
[23:37] <mfa298> samknows is decent for information about exchanges (although it currently still gives FTTC as RFS date set : 31/12/2013 for my exchange)
[23:38] <WillTablet> Right
[23:38] Action: mfa298 waits to see when it changes to 31/3/2014
[23:38] <ike> with something like $35 for R pi and cheap UHF radio for $20 and msp430 sampled for free from TI
[23:39] <ike> but the hard part is linux driver for SPI to PCM
[23:39] <mfa298> if you want cheap aprs you could just get a cheap usb soundcard.
[23:39] <ike> you are right
[23:39] <ike> R pi + soundcart
[23:40] <ike> too bad that they are 12 bit and less
[23:40] Action: WillTablet wonders if £20 for new earphones was worth it
[23:40] <ike> and are 12000 sps
[23:40] <ike> and output a lot of noice
[23:40] Action: mfa298 must try the £3 one I got recently works
[23:40] <ike> I have 2 of them
[23:40] <mfa298> WillTablet: depends on what headphones you got.
[23:41] <WillTablet> They were the best rated ones on amazon
[23:41] <ike> mfa298 do you have cheap USB sound card?
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[23:41] <WillTablet> Its just these let through noise on everything
[23:41] <WillTablet> So I can't quite enjoy Meat Loaf, Billy Joel and Supertramp quite as well
[23:41] <mfa298> ike: I have several although it's a bit hit and how well they work on the pi
[23:42] <ike> yes, there is hit and miss with those cheap ebay stuff
[23:42] <ike> anyway I was thinking about self-contained UHF APRS unit
[23:43] <mfa298> I've got them for doing AR stuff with other machines, the testing on the Pi is a secondary thing.
[23:43] <ike> that can be shipped to friends and relatives across the Europe
[23:43] <ike> so we can have more coverage
[23:44] <mikestir> ike: the rev 2 pi has the I2S port on the additional header iirc
[23:44] <mfa298> APRS already has pretty good coverage *if* you're using the standard 2m frequencies
[23:44] <ike> mikestir I2S are smd and not fun to work with
[23:44] <ike> mfa298 yes, but you need large antenna and expensive TX module
[23:44] <mikestir> some of the wolfson codecs are available in SOIC I think, or at least TSSOP
[23:44] <mikestir> which aren't bad
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[23:45] <mfa298> if you're going off the standard frequency there there are better ways of doing it than aprs
[23:45] <ike> I think you can do APRS with $4 si4432 module from ebay
[23:45] <mikestir> you would have to bit-bash the receive side
[23:45] <ike> like HF aprs with DDS module?
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[23:46] <mikestir> si4432 needs to see some preamble if you want to use the FIFO on the rx
[23:46] <WillTablet> Solomon had 700
[23:46] <WillTablet> Oops
[23:46] <ike> mikestir si4432 for TX only and cheap $18-20 uhf radio for RX
[23:46] <eroomde> he was known for his wisdom
[23:47] <mikestir> ike: I think you should be able to use the si443s for receive as well, but you'd need the microcontroller to be able to process the bits in real time
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[23:48] <mikestir> transmit you can get away with loads - I have used them to generate all sorts of obscure OOK remote control protocols
[23:48] <ike> I don't think that si4432 can recive AFSK
[23:48] <mikestir> oh yes I forgot it was AFSK
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[23:48] <mikestir> maybe not then
[23:49] <ike> but but ...
[23:49] <ike> it sounded great for the moment
[23:49] <ike> ;)
[23:50] <ike> with ebay arduino, enc24j60 and si4432 you can have igate for less than $10
[23:50] <mikestir> you might get it to tx by enabling the manchester encoder, getting it to transmit continuous 0s and changing the bitrate register per bit
[23:50] <WillTablet> eroomde: he probably wouldn't get the wrong IRC window either!
[23:52] <ike> mikestir there is "dumb mode" in those modules
[23:52] <ike> but I don't know
[23:52] <ike> it have to change bitrate 1200 times per second
[23:52] <mikestir> yes but it's still just a pass through from the data slicer on rx, and to the fsk modulator on tx
[23:54] <ike> so how this AFSK looks like in 440MHz
[23:55] <ike> it's not like USB, right, where you have only 2 discrete frequencyes
[23:56] <ike> on AFSK you have several like 20 discrete frequencyes that change 20*1200 times per second, right?
[23:57] <g4sgx_lappy> Evening guys. Whats the current thinking on encasing a small uC based board in polystyrene large balls. Do they not overheat or spin too widly ? I take it the bigger arduino/raspberry boards have the overheat prob?
[23:57] <mikestir> AFSK is just FSK at audio frequency, which is then modulated on the carrier - in the case of AFSK using FM
[23:57] <mikestir> *in the case of APRS
[23:59] <ike> does it look like this http://f1ult.free.fr/DIGIMODES/MULTIPSK/ccwfsk_fichiers/CCW_FSK_24.gif
[00:00] --- Fri Jan 3 2014