highaltitude.log.20131230

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[00:22] <Astro_> Upu are you still here? Can you send me the link to the Cloud/Snow page again?
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[02:02] <ArceusMI> Hello
[02:02] <ArceusMI> Hello?
[02:03] <fsphil> morning
[02:03] <ArceusMI> Night for me, but Morning to you, I guess!
[02:03] <fsphil> yea, most people here are asleep
[02:04] <ArceusMI> Where, UK?
[02:04] <fsphil> mostly europe, but it's a pretty international channel these days
[02:05] <ArceusMI> Hm, cool.
[02:05] <ArceusMI> I'm here from the Pi link, I'm not sure if that is the ONLY link here, though...
[02:06] <fsphil> Pi link?
[02:06] <ArceusMI> Raspberry?
[02:06] <ArceusMI> Ya know, Raspberry Pi? There's a link to here from their site.
[02:06] <fsphil> ah cool, we're on the front page
[02:06] <bbjunkie_> Liz put a link to here from raspberry pi site
[02:06] <ArceusMI> Yep.
[02:08] <fsphil> that explains the random Pi questions earlier :)
[02:09] <ArceusMI> Earlier, there were Pi questions? Like what, if you don't mind?
[02:10] <fsphil> streaming audio between two pi's
[02:10] <fsphil> what is the plural to pi anyway
[02:10] <fsphil> pies
[02:11] <ArceusMI> I think the term would just be RPis.
[02:11] <ArceusMI> That is what I see often.
[02:12] <ArceusMI> I bet you can stream audio between two RPis using some special program and the GPIO pins, TXD and RXD.
[02:13] <fsphil> the uart would be fast enough to stream compressed audio
[02:13] <fsphil> 115200 baud could handle a fairly decent opus stream
[02:13] <ArceusMI> Uart.... I am good with the CODING in comps... not whatever that is classified as xD
[02:14] <fsphil> serial port
[02:14] <ArceusMI> ah
[02:14] <ArceusMI> makes sense
[02:15] <ArceusMI> Hey, I'll be right back, gonna go do some Python stuff to light up some LEDs on my own Pi. :D I'm still new to it
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[02:16] <fsphil> nice!
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[02:23] <ArceusMI> Back
[02:24] <ArceusMI> :D
[02:25] <ArceusMI> I luv the RPi!
[02:25] <ArceusMI> It is amazing!
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[02:42] <SpeedEvil> ArceeusMI == beaky?
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[08:48] <VK4HIA> UPU are you around/
[08:51] <UpuWork> Hi there
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[09:03] <VK4HIA> Sorry UPU, stepped away for a sec
[09:04] <VK4HIA> Email rx thanks
[09:05] <UpuWork> nps
[09:05] <UpuWork> just sorting it out now
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[09:08] Action: es5nhc scratches head at the spot of 2128934_chase...
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[09:11] <es5nhc> And a few trackers have lats and longs mixed up. I somehow doubt there are stations in Yemen and Somalia. Callsigns are European either
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[10:01] <nats`> hi
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[10:23] <VK4HIA> Anyone available to approve a flight doc for me?
[10:23] <UpuWork> sure
[10:23] <UpuWork> got the doc id ?
[10:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ah new source of very cheap controllers who's up to building a tracker using them ? http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3554 ;-)
[10:25] <fsphil> aww, no seba updates
[10:26] <VK4HIA> sby
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> Geoff-G8DHE-M: That did look interesting.
[10:28] <VK4HIA> Doc Id as in name??
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> Geoff-G8DHE-M: I've been going on for years that that was interesting.
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> s/interesting/possible/
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[10:29] <VK4HIA> VK4HIA - Bunjil the latest one as I have two. Latest has all info
[10:29] <VK4HIA> df9baa4ff6ca027f70d27206b0ad115f
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[10:36] <UpuWork> Approved
[10:37] <VK4HIA> thanks upu
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[10:56] <tweetBot> @daveake: Blog post on the flight of CLOUDY and SNOW http://t.co/I2fdrNLjzc #raspberrypi #UKHAS
[10:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> An 8051 based tracker with memory!
[10:56] <daveake> Unlikely the serial port is get-at-able
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[10:57] <daveake> Worth a try for someone with the time :)
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> daveake: but it should be quite fine for bit-banging
[10:58] <daveake> yes indeed
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> especially given that the bigger ones are liable to be fastish arms.
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> Not 8051
[10:59] <daveake> Yes I'm sure they'd be fast enough; just extra work for whoever tries it
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[11:00] <Darkside> is this th sd card thing?
[11:00] <Darkside> i think thy likely have a miniscule amount of ROM
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> ROM tends to be comparable in price to flash these days in these sorts of device.
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[11:01] <Darkside> er
[11:01] <Darkside> maybe w're talking about diffrent things
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[11:01] <Darkside> im talking about the SD card hacking stuff
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2096045&page=2 - contains details of how to reprogram the microcontroller inside a samsung EMMC chip
[11:01] <Darkside> i think the onboard micro has a limited amount of rom
[11:01] <Darkside> maybe too limiting
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[11:03] <SpeedEvil> Do you mean RAM?
[11:03] <Darkside> well, both i guess
[11:03] <Darkside> they probably have enough ram
[11:03] <Darkside> since they'll need to buffer data and stuff
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[11:03] <Darkside> but i'd expect the program memory for the controller will be quite small
[11:03] <Darkside> and not on the same flash as the sd cards main storage
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[11:05] <fsphil> it could read the program from flash
[11:07] <fsphil> IO is too limited to be useful I suspect
[11:07] <Darkside> oh yeahi guess
[11:07] <Darkside> could write a bootloader
[11:07] <Darkside> maybe
[11:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> and store all the data in Flash as well
[11:07] <Darkside> of course the point of the controller is to correct for errors in teh flash
[11:07] <Darkside> so you'd hav to be careful
[11:07] <eroomde> it could bootload a great number of things if it could be persuaded to be an spi-master
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[11:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Noticed the date & time on the last CLOUDY SSDV picture ?? I presume someone playing back ??
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[11:10] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ah its gone ?
[11:10] <daveake> No that's correct
[11:10] <eroomde> i prefer the more romanticised explanation of it being the work of the ghost's of chsthabs past
[11:10] <eroomde> christhabs*
[11:10] <eroomde> they haunt the habhub server
[11:11] <daveake> ghosts
[11:11] <daveake> as you were complaining about my grammar recently :P
[11:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> There was one more a little while back with Image 0 and an S??? callsign
[11:11] <eroomde> When upu goes to open the server rack, the handle briefly becomes the face of a payload and menacingly says 'uuuuuuuuuppppuuuuuuuuu'
[11:11] <daveake> Yes "TEST image 0"
[11:12] <daveake> So it's a payload called "TEST" not "CLOUDY"
[11:12] <eroomde> to which upu replies 'Bah Habhub!'
[11:12] <daveake> lol
[11:12] <UpuWork> lol
[11:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ah yes I just selected the Tab before clsoing it and then realised there was another image there!
[11:14] <eroomde> he then gets three visits that evening, the ghost of christhab past is a childhood version of bill brown showing him hab in the early days
[11:14] <eroomde> the ghost of christhab present is a giant steve randall booming with laughter sat atop a large pile of balloon boxes, helium tanks and parachutes
[11:15] <eroomde> the ghost of christhab future is david miller in a black cloak showing him a time when no-one can get a notam and pico-tim is dead
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[11:17] <Darkside> haha
[11:17] <Darkside> hillarious
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[11:17] <jonsowman> excellent
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[11:24] <ei3kd> mornin' all, what freq icarus pse?
[11:24] <navrac_home> are you around upu?
[11:28] <UpuWork> Yup here navrac_home
[11:28] <ei3kd> any info on icarus pse? freq/mode?
[11:28] <UpuWork> Icarus will be someone playing back the wav from the WIki ei3kd
[11:28] <ei3kd> aha ok thanks
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[11:29] <UpuWork> deleted
[11:29] <Darkside> baleeted
[11:29] <navrac_home> Hi upu, just sitting down to design a new tracker board. What is the current state of the art as far as trackers is concerned now the rfm22b is now gone - is it the rfm69w or something else?
[11:30] <Darkside> raw Si chip
[11:30] <Darkside> with supporting components
[11:30] <UpuWork> either NTX2B
[11:30] <UpuWork> or roll your own
[11:30] <Darkside> there are reference designs floating around
[11:31] <fsphil> what chip was used on the rfm22b?
[11:31] <navrac_home> 4432 wasnt it?
[11:31] <Darkside> Si4432 ?
[11:31] <Darkside> mm
[11:31] <Darkside> somthing like that
[11:32] <fsphil> I'd like to try the two-way thing agian
[11:32] <fsphil> fly a transceiver
[11:32] <navrac_home> I notice the rfm69 module does 60hz steps so could probably do contestia with no external components
[11:32] <Darkside> LeoBodnar made it work with the Si chips
[11:32] <Darkside> i think h does frequency PWMing or something scary
[11:33] <Darkside> problm is h writes all his code in PIC assembly
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[11:33] <fsphil> crazy fool
[11:33] <Darkside> yeah
[11:33] <navrac_home> i'm not too keen on the pwm and pulling an xtal - I'd rather do direct digital
[11:33] <Darkside> makes the code completely useless to the greater community :-)
[11:33] <Darkside> navrac_home: this is what i mean
[11:33] <Darkside> h does it directly somehow
[11:34] <navrac_home> I like pic assember - thats easier for me than c
[11:34] <Darkside> god
[11:34] <Darkside> you're one of them
[11:34] <Darkside> you and leo can go sit over there
[11:34] <navrac_home> sorry....
[11:34] <Darkside> no, its ok..
[11:34] <Darkside> just weird
[11:34] <Darkside> :P
[11:35] <fsphil> do you have nightmares about bank switching?
[11:35] <navrac_home> not really, I think we are probably of an age where c compilers didnt exist when we started out so pure machine code is how we learnt
[11:35] <navrac_home> nah bank switching is easy it becomes automatic
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[11:36] <LeoBodnar> PIC24 does not have bank switching - it is asm nirvana
[11:36] <fsphil> "C compilers didn't exist" -- lies!!
[11:36] <fsphil> it's always been C
[11:37] <navrac_home> First thin i programmed was a 4004, then an 8008 then 8080
[11:37] <LeoBodnar> Well I lied. It does but bank size is 32K
[11:37] <navrac_home> if you cant do it in 32k its not worth doing :-)
[11:38] <LeoBodnar> Use PIC12F1501 for kicks
[11:38] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: im surprised you're not using an Si1000 alrady
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[11:38] <Darkside> or similar
[11:38] <Darkside> and doing it all on the 8051 fore
[11:38] <Darkside> core*
[11:39] <eroomde> i sort of want to do some more asm stuff
[11:40] <eroomde> but my resolution to practice embedded-craft is asm is severely tested upon meeting the countenance of trying to divide two numbers
[11:40] <LeoBodnar> there are some tectonic movements
[11:40] <LeoBodnar> But 8051 is even worse than PIC in RAM department
[11:40] <eroomde> why i wrote that like jane austen I'm not sure
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> RAM overlapped with SFRs and XRAM on top
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> so you have MOV, MOVC and MOVX
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[11:48] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: have you played with the PIC32/MIPS stuff?
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[11:49] <LeoBodnar> Not really. ARM is already a handful and I know a bit of its ASM from ARM7 days
[11:49] <LeoBodnar> MIPS is a new architecture to me
[11:49] <eroomde> h'ok
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[11:50] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb seems to be straying onto the dark side with ARM assembly recently
[11:51] <eroomde> the cortex M4 has some really nice DSP instructions
[11:51] <eroomde> i can see the appeal there
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[12:29] <g0azs> OK dumb question time... as I am curious
[12:29] <fsphil> no there is no tooth fairy
[12:29] <g0azs> Why do trackers use/transmit RTTY rather than PSK31? (as an example)
[12:30] <Darkside> g0azs: widespread availability of FSK modules
[12:30] <g0azs> what no tooth fairy either!
[12:30] <fsphil> there are no cheap radios that can do PSK
[12:30] <Darkside> well, FM modules that hav varactor input
[12:30] <Darkside> so you can do FSK
[12:31] <g0azs> OK so it is component type/availability driven rather than a "choice"..
[12:32] <Darkside> yes
[12:32] <Darkside> recently MFSK modes hav become popular, due to the availability of good modulators that can be modified to do small frequncy shifts
[12:32] <Darkside> PSK/QPSK/QAM on HABs is still a littl way off
[12:33] <Darkside> unless you want to go ahead and fly a SSB transmitter
[12:33] <g0azs> OK so that makes sense given the other modes I have seen used are MFSK
[12:33] <fsphil> nopefully not too far off
[12:33] <fsphil> QAM should be really interesting
[12:34] <Darkside> in terms of pushing the shannon limit, ys
[12:34] <g0azs> Thanks
[12:34] <Darkside> yes :-)
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[12:43] <LeoBodnar> Does anybody seriously want to try PSK31 on UHF?
[12:44] <LeoBodnar> What benefits would it have?
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[12:44] <gonzo_> make the tx stability and encoding more challenging?
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[12:45] <eroomde> i think it would have no benefits
[12:46] <eroomde> the bandwidth would be tiny, but we are not constrained by bandwidth at that kind of data rate
[12:46] <LeoBodnar> I can't see any benefits given our specific conditions
[12:46] <eroomde> if you want to send 30bps reliably, it makes far more sense to use an FSK mode
[12:46] <LeoBodnar> precis
[12:46] <eroomde> FSk when power constrained, PSK(or similar) when bandwidth constrained.
[12:46] <LeoBodnar> So unless you want to cram 30 balloons in the same audio BW
[12:47] <eroomde> exactly
[12:47] <eroomde> FSK has better performance than PSK from the point of view of energy required per bit for a given bit error-rate
[12:47] <eroomde> will find a diagram one sec
[12:48] <LeoBodnar> But if it's purely for the challenge somebody will do it
[12:49] <LeoBodnar> Yeah, we really need very efficient modes to keep transmitting '$$$$$BOOMBASTIC,52.9132407,-1.63249874,etc" ASCII strings
[12:50] <mattbrejza> coherent BPSK is better than non coherent FSK though
[12:50] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/gCTLqxI.png
[12:50] <mattbrejza> in terms of BER vs Eb/N0
[12:51] <eroomde> well yes, that's why I think it's all a bit academic to improve the modes unless we're getting 1-2 orders of magnitude higher datarates
[12:51] <eroomde> which should open up different oportunities
[12:51] <mattbrejza> yea much easier to just use 8FSK
[12:51] <eroomde> sending housekeeping data twice every second instead of once every 3 seconds is not that exciting
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[12:52] <LeoBodnar> so 8MFSK beats BPSK
[12:52] <eroomde> at lower data rates
[12:52] <Darkside> yep
[12:52] <eroomde> er, lower bit error rates
[12:52] <Darkside> this is very true on HF too
[12:53] <LeoBodnar> and QPSK is completely off
[12:53] <Darkside> though you nd to be careful with the tone spacing, becaus eof nastyness like doppler spread
[12:53] <Darkside> offset-QPSK might be interesting to look at
[12:53] <LeoBodnar> *QAM
[12:53] <Darkside> pi/4 or offset QPSK
[12:54] <eroomde> the PSKs and QAMs have worse bit error rates for a given SNR than FSK
[12:54] <Darkside> not sure if non-coherent offset-QPSK beats MFSK though
[12:54] <eroomde> *but*
[12:54] <eroomde> you have no choice when bandwidth constrained
[12:54] <Darkside> yes
[12:54] <Darkside> definitely
[12:54] <Darkside> i would like to implement a silly MFSK modem sometime though
[12:54] <Darkside> like, 256-tone
[12:54] <Darkside> just to see how it works
[12:55] <adamgreig> just use ofdm
[12:55] <LeoBodnar> Make Olivia work and bump up tones number
[12:55] <Darkside> adamgreig: OFDM requires linearity
[12:55] <Darkside> and lots of it
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[12:55] <LeoBodnar> I have tested 64 tones contestia
[12:55] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: yeah, olivia can do 256 tones already
[12:55] <LeoBodnar> It makes your head go "Boom" soundwise
[12:55] <Darkside> it drops the symbol rate way down though
[12:55] <eroomde> so for example, shannon says that with a hab 100km away, 10mW tx, 1/4 wave with groundplane antenna at both ends, and 5dB or so losses from coax and connectors, and a decent ham radio receiver, you can reliable communicate about 11,000bits/s with arbitrarily low bit error rates
[12:56] <eroomde> within a 3kHz wide channel
[12:56] <eroomde> now, you probably won't even get a 1/4 of the way to that with MFSK in a 3kHz channel
[12:56] <eroomde> probably less than 1/4, even
[12:56] <adamgreig> given the proliferation of SDRs I reckon we could toy with >3kHz channels
[12:56] <gonzo_> could we get him on the irc channel then?
[12:56] <adamgreig> shannon was always reticent to specify exactly how one achieves such data rates ;)
[12:57] <eroomde> adamgreig: you could but i think most people atill use ham radio stuff
[12:57] <eroomde> and it's much more sensitive
[12:57] <LeoBodnar> we need to send Shannon a message
[12:57] <adamgreig> seems the excess bandwidth would more than make up for any drop in sensitivity
[12:57] <adamgreig> considering C goes linearly with B and log with SNR
[12:58] <LeoBodnar> we are stick with ham equipment if we want coverage
[12:58] <LeoBodnar> *stuck
[12:58] <adamgreig> but the point about most people using ham radios is fair enough
[12:58] <eroomde> that's what I think
[12:58] <mattbrejza> if tx power stays the same and as BW increases the max capacity reaches a maximuim?
[12:58] <adamgreig> no mattbrejza
[12:58] <eroomde> plus once you go wise, 70cm starts to get quite noisy and quite non-gaussian
[12:58] <adamgreig> no limit on capacity if you can increase power or bandwidth
[12:58] <eroomde> whereas you can find pretty quite patches of it if you stay narrow
[12:58] <adamgreig> but power needs to go up exponentially to get linear capacity gain
[12:58] <adamgreig> while bandwidth goes up linearly for linear capacity gain
[12:59] <mattbrejza> but the issue is we cant increase power, so i thought capacity reaches a mac
[12:59] <mattbrejza> x
[12:59] <adamgreig> for a given capacity (and assuming all AGWN which breaks down at extreme bandwidths as ed said ^) you can just keep adding more bandwidth
[12:59] <adamgreig> and keep getting more capacity
[12:59] <eroomde> SNR also drops as you increase B
[12:59] <adamgreig> no limit
[12:59] <adamgreig> oh I guess
[12:59] <eroomde> Tx power stays the same, noise power collected increases
[12:59] <adamgreig> for a given SNR*, not for a given capacity, ^
[12:59] <eroomde> sure
[12:59] <adamgreig> but yea
[12:59] <adamgreig> fair enough
[13:00] <eroomde> tho yes, probably slow than B increases
[13:00] <eroomde> O(n - logn)
[13:00] <adamgreig> something like that
[13:00] <adamgreig> esp if you can ofdm or similar to not worry overmuch about noisier spectrum bits
[13:00] <eroomde> er yes, something like that but no that, that was bs
[13:00] <adamgreig> well yea O(n-logn) is O(n)
[13:01] <mattbrejza> http://www.dsplog.com/db-install/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/capacity_vs_bandwidth.png
[13:01] <adamgreig> such a well drawn chart.
[13:01] <adamgreig> wait, no.
[13:01] <adamgreig> though that is a bit weird
[13:01] <LeoBodnar> I wonder how much TX/RX phase noise degrades the channel capacity
[13:01] <adamgreig> what on earth are they plotting?
[13:02] <eroomde> it's B*log(1+ S/kB)
[13:02] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: that'll matter for PSK/QAM modes i guess
[13:02] <mattbrejza> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Channel_Capacity_with_Power-_and_Bandwidth-Limited_Regimes.png
[13:02] <Darkside> less so for MFSK/FSK unlss the tone spacing is tiny
[13:02] <adamgreig> https://randomskk.net/u/shannon_2.png
[13:03] <Darkside> purty
[13:03] <Darkside> also 3d plots kind of suck unless they can be manipulated
[13:03] <Darkside> i use contours
[13:03] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: you'd need a linear Tx for psk/qam
[13:03] <adamgreig> I think you can tell a convincing point with 3d plots Darkside
[13:04] <Darkside> yeah
[13:04] <adamgreig> in this case you can clearly see the linear relation on one plane and the log on the other
[13:04] <Darkside> i just avoud using them
[13:04] <Darkside> but ok
[13:04] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: have you measured the power efficiency of your transmitters?
[13:04] <mattbrejza> adamgreig: thats power in W or dB?
[13:04] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: suspect it's actually SNR
[13:04] <Darkside> i'd be interested to know the actual transmitter efficiency of a SiXXXX chip
[13:04] <adamgreig> old chart, made it years ago
[13:05] <mattbrejza> k
[13:05] <Darkside> i know it can be made into a Class E configuration
[13:05] <Darkside> but its still running at 434MHz, and you dont get 98% efficincy amplifiers up there
[13:05] <eroomde> my thinking is, if you're shooting for say 2.4kbps from a hab, you're doing something a bit more serious, and a low efficient Tx is not a big deal
[13:05] <Darkside> because FETs suck
[13:05] <eroomde> you're not doing a mass-optimised pico
[13:05] <Darkside> yeah
[13:05] <Darkside> agreed
[13:06] <eroomde> you're Doing Science or something, doesn't matter if the payload weighs 1kg
[13:06] <Darkside> well i already know 115kbps is possible from a balloon
[13:06] <Darkside> but thats at 1W TX power on 915MHz
[13:06] <eroomde> what power, bw and range?
[13:07] <eroomde> ah
[13:07] <adamgreig> but in that case send up a bladeRF or hackRF and it's like, a full duplex, 20MHz channels, IQ transmitter/receiver that's frequency agile over way more than just 70cms
[13:07] <Darkside> adamgreig: yep i was just thinking that
[13:07] <eroomde> well, i think henry (ex-CUSF) got 40MBps with 1W from one of his cubesats
[13:07] <eroomde> Mb sorry
[13:07] <eroomde> not MB
[13:07] <Darkside> i.e. what ready-built SSB transceiver is available
[13:07] <Darkside> the hackrf didnt quite click
[13:07] <Darkside> but there it is
[13:07] <adamgreig> want my hackrf to arrive soon
[13:07] <Darkside> and it'll do 10mW or so stock
[13:07] <adamgreig> have plans
[13:08] <Darkside> will the 8-bits resolution cause problems for QAM?
[13:08] <eroomde> not for modulating it
[13:08] <Darkside> ok
[13:08] <eroomde> you only need 4 bits per axis
[13:08] <eroomde> er, 2 bits
[13:08] <eroomde> sorry
[13:09] <Darkside> well there you go
[13:09] <eroomde> oh, unless you're producing some IF
[13:09] <eroomde> rather than baseband
[13:09] <Darkside> humm
[13:09] <Darkside> dunno what the hackrf does
[13:09] <Darkside> i think you produce baseband
[13:09] <eroomde> well 8 bits is pro bably still plenty
[13:09] <adamgreig> no need to be though since the actual IF of the hackRF has good precision
[13:09] <eroomde> 256 levels is a lot
[13:09] <adamgreig> you produce baseband on the hackrf
[13:09] <adamgreig> it modulates it up for you, and you can control the carrier freq quite well
[13:09] <Darkside> well th hackrf might be a good candidate for the first QAMHAB
[13:10] <Darkside> is thre some kind of processor core on the FPGA?
[13:10] <Darkside> the hackrf has a FPGA, rite?
[13:10] <adamgreig> hackrf doesn't have an fpga
[13:10] <adamgreig> that's bladerf and the quattus stuff
[13:10] <Darkside> oh
[13:10] <adamgreig> hackrf has a cpla or whatever
[13:10] <Darkside> what does the hackrf have
[13:10] <Darkside> CPLD
[13:11] <adamgreig> that one
[13:11] <Darkside> hm
[13:11] <Darkside> well thats a pain
[13:11] <Darkside> still, hackrf, rpi
[13:11] <Darkside> doabl
[13:11] <Darkside> doable
[13:11] <gonzo_> more expensive than flying gopro's
[13:11] <Darkside> yes
[13:11] <adamgreig> no
[13:11] <Darkside> oh?
[13:11] <Darkside> i thought the hackrfs were a few hundred bob
[13:11] <gonzo_> how about generatying IQ with a uproc?
[13:12] <eroomde> minicircuits probably have iQ mixes in a little box already
[13:12] <adamgreig> about £160 for a hackrf
[13:12] <adamgreig> cheapest gopro is £200
[13:12] <Darkside> eroomde: theres some AD IQ modulator chips too
[13:12] <Darkside> which will probably do this job
[13:12] <eroomde> yeah
[13:12] <eroomde> you're right
[13:12] <Darkside> i've used a few of them actually
[13:12] <Darkside> also ones from LT
[13:12] <Darkside> i tried to mak them work at HF and failed miserably
[13:13] <Darkside> you know how IQ channels are meant to be 90 degrees phase shifted?
[13:13] <eroomde> such is life
[13:13] <Darkside> well below 50MHz this particular chip got to somthing like 110 degrees
[13:13] <Darkside> of course it was out of spec
[13:13] <Darkside> but oh well
[13:13] <Darkside> ended up using a tayloe mixer >_>
[13:14] <Darkside> aaaaanyway
[13:15] <eroomde> right, i need to go and be a bit domestic
[13:15] <eroomde> bbl
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[13:25] <nats`> Darkside you can do the shift in software if you need a good one
[13:25] <Darkside> uh, what?
[13:25] <VK4HIA> G'day darkside
[13:26] <nats`> if you realy need a precise 90° phase shift you can do it in software
[13:26] <nats`> problem is you need to sample faster
[13:26] <Darkside> hey VK4HIA
[13:26] <Darkside> nats`: yeah it isnt a problem anymore
[13:26] <Darkside> not working with that stuff now
[13:27] <nats`> oky :)
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[13:44] <eroomde> car died :(
[13:44] <eroomde> i haven;t driven it for a week, i think perhaps the LED in the 12V adaptor for my satnav is the responsible part
[13:44] <eroomde> tedious
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[13:47] <number10> I have one of those solar charger things I plug into the fag lighter when I leave my car at an airport CP not sure how well they work
[13:49] <beingaware> DARKSIDE
[13:49] <Darkside> BEINGAWARE
[13:49] <Darkside> why ar we shouting
[13:49] <VK4HIA> Cause he is QRP
[13:50] <Darkside> lol
[13:51] <VK4HIA> beingaware, no hear on the repeater tonight, very quiet.
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[13:58] <Suns> hello all
[13:58] <Darkside> VK4HIA: depnds on your regulator
[13:58] <Darkside> also i cant remember >_>
[13:59] <Darkside> we usually do it slowly, maybe 15 min
[13:59] <Suns> has someone the correct timming for the dominoex4?
[13:59] <Suns> 125ms for tone and 125ms for space?
[13:59] <Darkside> er
[13:59] <VK4HIA> Thx
[14:00] <Darkside> dominoex dosnt have mark and space
[14:00] <Darkside> its a MFSK mode
[14:00] <Suns> yeah i try this way. but the decoder dont work very well. and find this
[14:01] <Darkside> i think you need to do some more reading on how DominoEX works
[14:01] <Darkside> and i need to go to bed
[14:01] <Darkside> since its 1AM.
[14:01] <Suns> Multi-tone frequency shift keying, single tone coherent phase (CPMFSK). 18 tones spaced 1T without interleaving. Slower modes use 2T spacing.
[14:01] <Darkside> sure, now go read about the varicode it uses
[14:01] <Darkside> and how its incremental frequeny shift kying, etc
[14:01] <Suns> the fldigi is working with my generator. but very badly.
[14:02] <Darkside> ah ok
[14:02] <Darkside> usually timing or frequency spacing then
[14:02] <Darkside> fldigi is a bit finnicky
[14:02] <Darkside> the symbol rate information is on the fldigi dominoex modes page
[14:02] <Darkside> 3.90625 baud
[14:02] <Suns> i tryed with 125ms tone and 125ms blank it works better, but yes it is not right.
[14:03] <Darkside> each symbol should b 256 ms long
[14:04] <Darkside> http://www.w1hkj.com/FldigiHelp-3.21/Modes/DominoEXdesc.htm
[14:04] <Darkside> anyway im going to bed
[14:04] <Darkside> gnight all
[14:04] <Suns> hehe thanks anyway.
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[14:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> number10, Is your Fag lighter live when the ignition is turned off then ?
[14:19] <number10> fortunatel yes Geoff-G8DHE
[14:19] <number10> fortunately
[14:21] <beingaware> VK4HIA
[14:21] <beingaware> I am around haha
[14:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> Is it mofified then ?
[14:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> modified
[14:26] <number10> no just as is
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[14:32] <VK4HIA> Anyone able to give me some info as to why I dont get the distance and bearing to up on DL-FLdigi?
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[14:54] <beingaware> we talking about live google maps intergration ?
[14:54] <beingaware> or is the unit xmitting correctly?
[14:55] <beingaware> anyway night guys
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[15:41] <ike> now it's quiet
[15:42] <ike> but you should have seen them
[15:43] <ike> GPS chips have 18 000M limit, so they calcuate raw data
[15:47] Zuph (~Zuph@2001:470:8:626:21d:7dff:fe0b:5e97) joined #highaltitude.
[15:47] <ike> http://imgur.com/a/MjsbX#0
[15:48] <ike> http://imgur.com/a/Fgesk
[15:48] <ike> this is CC430 pulling it's own xtal to do modulation
[15:50] <UpuWork> what are you posting random stuff for ike ?
[15:50] <ike> for friend of mine
[15:50] <ike> nice plane
[15:50] <daveake_> try pm
[15:50] <UpuWork> please pm next time
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[15:52] <ike> but those project are cool and more people should have see it
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[15:52] <Willdude123> Is this what an NFM signal should look like on an SDR? http://imgur.com/rLtFg0x
[15:53] <craag> ike: most people here have :)
[15:53] <Willdude123> It seems to just raise the noise floor
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[15:53] <craag> Willdude123: Have you looked at them on the websdr?
[15:54] <Willdude123> I mean it's got no antenna but it's 5w and only a few CMs.
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[15:54] <Gadget-Mac> UpuWork: Who do you use for you PCB stencils ?
[15:54] <Willdude123> craag: yeah. I'm just trying to see if I'm txing a ctcss tone
[15:54] <Willdude123> I can't open any repeaters
[15:54] <Gadget-Mac> Willdude123: have you got anything on the end of that 5W TX, dummy load ?
[15:54] <Willdude123> Whip
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[15:55] <Willdude123> Sometimes my signals are very strong on the WebSDR
[15:55] <Willdude123> Other times not
[15:55] <craag> Willdude123: Would probably have been stronger over the weekend, as that was using the antenna at the top of the mast.
[15:56] <craag> Now it's back to using the dipole about 5m lower I believe.
[15:56] <mfa298> how well your signal get to somewhere can vary with position, expecially when it's lower powered on a handheld
[15:56] <Willdude123> craag: I get through to some repeaters if they are open
[15:56] <Willdude123> craag: not sure when I checked but they were definitely stronger a while ago
[15:57] <craag> Willdude123: Sounds like lack of ctcss then
[15:57] <Willdude123> Well, I'll just TX with CTCSS on 433.525 and see how loud I am
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[15:57] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[15:57] <Willdude123> Very very quiet
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[15:58] <mfa298> Willdude123: if you're trying to see if your local sdr can receive stuff then you probably want to remove all antennas (sdr and radio) *and* put the radio onto low power. (Dummy load on the radio would be ideal but you might not have one yet)
[15:58] <Willdude123> Will just try and figure why I can't hear myself
[15:58] <DL7AD> good morning
[15:59] <Willdude123> mfa298: is it safe without an atenna if I'm on low power?
[15:59] <mfa298> but as craag said, if you can only use repeaters after someone else has opened it up that sounds like you're not sending cctss.
[15:59] <Willdude123> Yeah, I'm just looking for CTCSS
[16:00] <Willdude123> Will program it to GB3FN which I've acessed before
[16:00] <mfa298> low power with no antenna should be fairly safe if it's just a quick tx.
[16:00] <Willdude123> Not hearing anything,
[16:02] <Willdude123> Still nothing
[16:02] <UpuWork> Gadget-Mac - Hackvana (#hackvana)
[16:02] <Willdude123> Will just try SDR#
[16:02] <Gadget-Mac> Cool, quality pretty good ?
[16:02] <UpuWork> yup got three now no issues
[16:02] <UpuWork> and cheap
[16:04] <Gadget-Mac> Cool, good to know.
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[16:04] <Gadget-Mac> Looks like it works well with the step-up converter, which is probably as testing as it's likely to get, or a TMP112 ;)
[16:08] <Willdude123> I'm not sure what's happening here
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[16:09] <Willdude123> It seems I'm txing
[16:09] <Willdude123> I can't decode it on SDR console though
[16:10] <Willdude123> Odd
[16:10] <Willdude123> Sometimes I can hear my signal, others not
[16:11] <mfa298> Willdude123: this is what I see on sdr-radio for GB3ET https://www.dropbox.com/s/1jo1hjj3ywjhn9d/SDR-GB3ET.jpg, the spike between 50 and 100Hz should be the cctss tone
[16:14] <Willdude123> mfa298: are you on V1 or V2?
[16:14] <Willdude123> I can sometimes copy myself loudly
[16:14] <mfa298> 2.1
[16:14] <Willdude123> Others not at all and nothing has changed
[16:16] <mfa298> copy your self on what ?
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[16:18] <Willdude123> mfa298: SDR
[16:18] <Willdude123> Same goes for the websdr
[16:18] <Willdude123> I thinl
[16:18] <Willdude123> http://imgur.com/J2CDpYn
[16:18] <Willdude123> That's all that happens
[16:19] <mfa298> make sure you're listening on the repeater input frequencies (434.925 for ET, 434.9750 for FN)
[16:19] <ike> what is this software SDR console
[16:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> That looks like your totally overloading the Dongle
[16:20] <mfa298> you might want to move the dongle centre frequency away from what you're listening to.
[16:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> ike http://v2.sdr-radio.com/Home.aspx
[16:21] <mfa298> I'm not sure what the early fcd was like but some don't work as well on the centre or the edges
[16:22] <ike> 10x Geoff-G8DHE
[16:24] <Willdude123> mfa298: yup
[16:24] <Willdude123> Will try
[16:25] <mfa298> Willdude123: also it might help to set sdr-radio on FM-Narrow (rather than FM Broadcast)
[16:28] <Willdude123> mfa298: off center http://i.imgur.com/KyP99Ge.png
[16:28] <mfa298> is the band in the middle when you transmitted ?
[16:29] <Willdude123> No
[16:29] <Willdude123> I was transmitting on 434.975
[16:29] <Willdude123> I get nothing whatsoever without an antenna
[16:31] <Willdude123> (tx_
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[16:32] <mfa298> if the tx was for the whole of the time in the bottom waterfall your either overloading it or it's not strong enough.
[16:34] <Willdude123> It was only on during the whiteish bit
[16:34] <Willdude123> Maybe I am overloading it, but without an antenna it gets nothing
[16:35] <Willdude123> That's low power
[16:35] <Willdude123> With antenna
[16:35] <mfa298> if the tx was during that white horizontal bar in the waterfall then it looks like you're overloading it.
[16:36] <mfa298> if you look at the image from my sdr-radio the transmission is nice and clear in both waterfalls
[16:37] <Willdude123> Can I record it or something so I can go downstairs and transmit so it doesn't overload?
[16:38] <mfa298> with the radio on low power, I'd try removing the antenna first from the radio - that's what I did
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[16:39] <Willdude123> mfa298: okay
[16:39] <Willdude123> Doesn't seemto work though at all with low power
[16:39] <Willdude123> How do I listen back to audio recordings?
[16:40] <mfa298> I'm not sure, I've never done recordings.
[16:40] <Willdude123> Right found it
[16:40] <Willdude123> Absolutely nothing
[16:40] <Willdude123> I don't get why SDR# works though
[16:41] <mclane> any proposal what to use as chip for a step down converter (3.3V 800 mAmax)?
[16:41] <nats`> mclane VIN ?
[16:41] <mclane> 6-7 V down to 3.3V
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[16:42] <nats`> you need it to source it easily with mouser farnell etc ?
[16:42] <mclane> yea
[16:42] <nats`> if so you have some nice mps in friendly package like SOIC
[16:42] <Willdude123> mfa298: SDR# works fine so I might just see if I can get a audio spectrum analyser
[16:43] <nats`> http://fr.mouser.com/_/?Keyword=monolithic+power+system&FS=True
[16:43] <mclane> ah ok thanks
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[16:44] <nats`> http://fr.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Monolithic-Power-Systems-MPS/MP1470GJ-P/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtitjHzVIkrqfgy%252bSBRf9b7AeaZ2zRQDP0%3d
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[16:45] <mclane> merci!
[16:45] <mfa298> Willdude123: the bit you will need to check is if things are being filtered. AR generally uses an audio pass band of 300Hz -> 3KHz (so the cctss tones would be filtered out)
[16:45] <YO9ICT> Have someone used http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__37828__Turnigy_Highrate_30FPS_Mini_XQ_80_Digital_Camera_without_memory_card_.html ?
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[16:47] <nats`> mclane it's just an example :)
[16:47] <nats`> if you're targetting low power long run device
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[16:47] <nats`> please check mps switcher with good effiency in your case
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[16:58] <Willdude123> http://imgur.com/mmQIjAa
[16:58] <Willdude123> That's what I see
[17:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> Well in that case you have a Ctcss tone in the 50-1ooHz range
[17:01] <Willdude123> Oh
[17:01] <Willdude123> So it really should work
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[17:01] <mfa298> it does look like there's a cctss tone in there, but a bit more resolution would be nice
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[17:02] <Geoff-G8DHE> If you have the right ctcss tone yes
[17:02] <Willdude123> mfa298: I' m a little unsure with this software
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[17:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> Set the Hi Freq limit to something like 4Khz and also the RTA Resolution to some a lot less than 1 Octave maybe ?
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[17:10] <Willdude123> Just got in to fn
[17:10] <Willdude123> Not sure if it was open
[17:12] <Willdude123> Damn, I made a contact with someone who I've heard quite a few times but can't recall his call
[17:15] <nats`> http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Electronics_NA/Electronics/Products/Product_Catalog/~/3M-Electrically-Conductive-Adhesive-Transfer-Tape-9703?N=4294406280+5153906&&Nr=AND%28hrcy_id%3A5CP6S9HG9Rgs_H1RGD426ZK_N2RL3FHWVK_GPD0K8BC31gv%29&rt=d
[17:15] <nats`> to prototype bga \o/
[17:16] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[17:19] <Willdude123> I think I might have just opened FN
[17:19] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
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[17:22] <Willdude123> craag: how exactly did you get the long range wifi link at the webSDR site?
[17:22] <Willdude123> I'm interested as to how it works
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[17:26] <fsphil> high gain antennas
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> Moderate range wifi links are pretty easy
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> up to a 'few' kilometers.
[17:27] <fsphil> high gains on both sides of the link and a clear path between them
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> Buy two 1.2m satellite dishes on ebay, place two USB wifi sticks at the focal points, point them right, and you get of the order of several kilometers range
[17:27] <fsphil> wonder if it's 2.4 or 5ghz
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> It's very slightly, but not drastically more involved than that.
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[17:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> Don't you need to alter some of the timings ?
[17:29] <mfa298> altering some of the timings and/or fixing a lower speed may help.
[17:29] <fsphil> it would still work without that, just not ideal
[17:30] <mfa298> technically it's probably not legal either (unless you reduce the tx power to match the antenna gain)
[17:30] <fsphil> maybe if it was a really distant link
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[17:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening !
[17:30] <fsphil> yea. annoying that, as it'll be interfering with fewer people
[17:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pliki/seba6earth.png
[17:30] <fsphil> being higher gain
[17:30] <fsphil> howdy SP9UOB-Tom
[17:32] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu, LeoBodnar i have idea :)
[17:32] <fsphil> looks like the crack out of doctor who
[17:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> :)
[17:34] <fsphil> we're doomed
[17:34] <fsphil> it really did go far didn't it
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[17:35] <BrainDamage> generally rulings over wifi power is EIRP, so including antenna gain, but in pratice none will care of an high focused beam unless you leak signal to someone who cares too much about it
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[17:46] <mfa298> unless you're interferring with something that really matters I doubt anyone will care. you can find 2W wifi devices on sale without much effort
[17:47] Action: SP9UOB-Tom have 10Watt 2.4 GHz tube :-)
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> mfa298: yeah - ideally you don't use them unless it's in a place nobody cares.
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> Otherwise you're just being an asshat.
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[18:15] <shadowlessman> hi?
[18:16] <fsphil> yes
[18:17] <shadowlessman> why does it show so many ips on the top
[18:19] wehj (5199ba9e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.153.186.158) joined #highaltitude.
[18:19] <fsphil> probably the people in the channel
[18:19] <shadowlessman> any whay to hid mine?
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[18:20] <daveake> that's one way
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[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Or buy a cloak.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Or obtain a cloak through wierd methods.
[18:28] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host86-163-166-232.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> (I ran a tor exit node for a few days, and only registered exit nodes were allowed to connect to freenode (or something) - so I got a /tor/ cloak to let me connect.
[18:28] BadClown (5b92f182@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.146.241.130) joined #highaltitude.
[18:29] <gurgalof> paranoid IP cloaking people...
[18:29] <Hiena> Grow mustache, wear a top hat and nobody will know about your evil genius.
[18:33] <Hiena> I never thought, cleaning my workshop could finance a small research project, and at the same time i have to do something with 2000 M10x30 screw and a dozen 250W UV bulb.
[18:35] <craag> Willdude123: It's 2x ubiquiti airmax units.
[18:36] <craag> Vanilla wifi was attempted but the path goes through a lot of trees, so it wasn't successful. These however manage to keep a ~6MBit link out of the box.
[18:36] Babs (1f30d8f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.48.216.249) joined #highaltitude.
[18:36] <craag> THey're the nanobridge units with little dishes.
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[18:48] <ike> I can't run SDR console v2.0 I think because I don't have SSE2
[18:49] <ike> but I can run SDR-RADIO console v1.5
[18:49] <craag> ike: What CPU do you have??
[18:49] <ike> can I use that with SDR dongle
[18:49] <ike> 10 yo
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[18:50] <craag> SSE2 was introduced with the P4 in 2001 and the AMD64 in 2003..
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[18:52] <ike> Sempron 2200+ 1500 MHz 256 KB 333 MT/s 9x 1.60 V 62 W July 28, 2004 SDA2200DUT3D
[18:52] <ike> "Thoroughbred-B" (Socket A, 130 nm, Model 8) MMX, SSE, Enhanced 3DNow!
[18:52] <craag> Ah ok fair enough
[18:53] <mfa298> you might need something a little bit newer than that for sdr-radio. even my old netbook has struggled with it.
[18:53] <craag> Yes that's probably too old to be able to run any SDR with an RTL dongle
[18:54] <ike> I can run SDR# just fine
[18:54] <x-f> i used RTLSDR with SDR# on Duron 1.2 GHz and 256 MB RAM
[18:54] <ike> question is can I run SDR dongle with SDR-RADIO console v1.5?
[18:54] <x-f> you can't, it doesn't support these dongles
[18:54] <ike> with this software http://v2.sdr-radio.com/V15.aspx
[18:54] <craag> wow ok, guess they managed to use SSEv1 for that then.
[18:55] <ike> x-f can I output SDR dongle output like sterio autio-in sound card?
[18:57] <x-f> i'm not sure what you mean by that
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[18:58] <ike> on SDR-RADIO console v1.5 I can select audio input from my sound card
[18:59] <ike> so if I can represend SDR dongle as a sterio sound card
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[18:59] <ike> I can use it
[19:03] <mfa298> if it's a cheap rtl dongle I don't think you can use it like that - at least not easily.
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[19:05] <ike> I can limit it's sample rate to let's say 200KHz
[19:05] <ike> 200KHz sound card is not something unheard
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[19:05] <ike> all I need is the right driver
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[19:07] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
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[19:11] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pliki/arhab.png :-))
[19:12] <x-f> congratulations :)
[19:13] <ike> SP9UOB-Tom I can beat your record just hold my beer.
[19:14] <ike> does anyone know how I can fake some results?
[19:15] <mfa298> ike: I think you'll be writing your own driver then.
[19:16] <x-f> those metric values seem a bit.. 100 times bigger?
[19:19] <SP9UOB-Tom> x-f: look at the commas and dots
[19:19] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[19:21] <x-f> ah, right, i expected kilometers..
[19:21] <craag> x-f: That would be logical.. this is arhab though ;)
[19:24] <MLow> for hab stuff is there any reasoning to using a directional antenna?
[19:24] <MLow> or would that just be usefull for when it gets near the ground
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[19:25] <craag> MLow: Generally not needed when you're <200km from the balloon. But can be very useful to pinpoint it on the ground for recovery.
[19:25] <MLow> got it
[19:25] <MLow> thats how i figured
[19:26] <MLow> so using an rtl-sdr, how might i go about testing antennas and configurations to find the best
[19:26] <craag> You're USA right?
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> Find a fairly flat place - point it at a distant transmitter of about the right frequency
[19:28] <MLow> craag: yes
[19:28] <craag> Yeah, given that there aren't many other flights in the US for you to test with, you'll have to find (or create) a distant LOS signal and then do an antenna-shootout
[19:29] <MLow> hm
[19:29] <MLow> uhm
[19:30] <MLow> any ideas?
[19:30] <MLow> my workplace is 2 story, i can put something on the roof
[19:30] <MLow> thats about as high as i can get something
[19:31] <craag> Sounds ideal
[19:31] <craag> Have you got your own payload tx?
[19:31] <MLow> kinda
[19:31] <MLow> breadboarded mostly
[19:31] <craag> Would be a good test of the range on that also :)
[19:31] <MLow> well sitting on my desk with a piece of wire its 10mi at least to a local repeater
[19:32] <craag> Ah aprs?
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[19:34] <MLow> yeah
[19:34] <MLow> i made a 1/4wave ground plane to poke thru the foam payload boax
[19:34] <MLow> as i understand that makes it a 5/8wave 70cm as well
[19:35] <MLow> so with some diodes or something i should be able to use 70cm and 2m with the same antenna
[19:35] <craag> As that's not a continuous signal, it's going to be time-consuming to test rx antennas with. Might be worth hooking up a 144mhz cw signal to use.
[19:35] <MLow> right?
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[19:35] <craag> You could just use a splitter.
[19:35] <MLow> huh?
[19:36] <MLow> they would be on the same board couldn't I just run a trace to both TX?
[19:37] <craag> ah TX
[19:37] <craag> darkside had a board for feedin 2m/70cm tx to one antenna
[19:39] <MLow> i imagine diodes would be involved
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[19:40] <craag> Just a couple of filters I think
[19:40] <craag> Diodes won't really work with RF as it's AC :)
[19:41] <mfa298> high/low pass filters or bandpass filters should do it.
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[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:44] <craag> MLow: google is failing me, but there is a design for a 2m/70cm antenna feed somewhere. I think Upu might have looked at it at one point.
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[19:44] <Upu> diplexor ?
[19:45] <Upu> Darkside designed one
[19:45] <Upu> still have a few left
[19:45] <MLow> yeah
[19:45] <MLow> seems hard to find plans
[19:45] <Upu> speak to Darkside
[19:45] <Upu> I think I may still have some actual PCB's
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[19:47] <Upu> whats the project swift website ?
[19:49] <Upu> http://www.projectswift.co.uk/
[19:49] <Upu> looks like nigey broke the site
[19:49] <craag> broken dns?
[19:49] <Upu> yep possibly
[19:49] <MLow> hey just out of curiosity is there any you can ship with UPS or something
[19:49] <Upu> I can
[19:50] <craag> yep no A/AAAA records
[19:50] <MLow> id like to use the rtty/aprs combo but i dont think i can get 2 antennas on there
[19:50] <Upu> https://web.archive.org/web/20120821222709/http://www.projectswift.co.uk/
[19:52] <MLow> is the board populated or just the raw board
[19:52] <Upu> I *may* have enough parts left to populate
[19:52] <Upu> I'd have to check its been a while since I made one
[19:53] <MLow> ah
[19:53] <MLow> 500mw comes out the hx1, so i probably need different stuff than you used?
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[19:55] <mfa298> looks like the upstream dns servers for projectswift are down/don't exist.
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[19:56] <mikestir> you can use diodes as RF switches craag
[19:57] <Upu> speak to Darkside I'd be surprised if it couldn't handle 500mW (actually HX1 is 300mW)
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[19:58] <MLow> ah my mistake
[19:59] <MLow> been a while since i looked at the datasheet
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[20:16] <SP9UOB-Tom> hello again
[20:17] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/nsas-ant-division-catalog-of-exploits-for-nearly-every-major-software-hardware-firmware/
[20:17] <craag> mikestir: Yep, haven't seen them in many >10mW RF paths though.
[20:23] <mikestir> I think a lot of rigs use pin diodes for T/R switching the antenna path
[20:25] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[20:25] <craag> Ah yes... I'm not exactly on the ball today..
[20:27] <craag> I should probably take my newer rigs apart more often
[20:27] <craag> Most recently was the FT101, and that definitely doesn't use a pin diode!
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> On a sort of high-altitudey note.
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_beams
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> WWII navigation systems.
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> X-Gerät was used effectively in a series of raids known to the Germans as "Moonlight Sonata", against Coventry, Wolverhampton and Birmingham. In the raid on Birmingham only KGr 100 was used, and British post-raid analysis showed that the vast majority of the bombs dropped were placed within 100 yards (91 m) of the midline of the 'Weser' beam, spread along it for a few hundred yards. This was the sort of accuracy that even daytime bombing
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> could rarely achieve.
[20:30] <MLow> hey man this isnt cool, you cant fly model planes over 400ft!
[20:31] <MLow> my dreams are crushed
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> MLow: you can if you are in an aircraft following them
[20:33] <MLow> this memo i found from the 80s says pretty clear and with no exceptions, where are you looking
[20:36] <MLow> usa right?
[20:36] <MLow> im trying so hard but i cant find the alt key on my phone to switch to usahab
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[20:40] <jarod> http://www.boredpanda.com/crane-operator-shanghai-aerial-photography-wei-gensheng/ ON TOPIC!
[20:41] <SpeedEvil> MLow: UK
[20:41] <SpeedEvil> MLow: I thought you were in the UK
[20:41] <SpeedEvil> I read in detail the most recent CAA document that covers (amongst other things) balloons and RC aircraft.
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[21:16] <Laurenceb_> http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/nsas-ant-division-catalog-of-exploits-for-nearly-every-major-software-hardware-firmware/
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> this is quite worrying
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> the soldering that is
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> http://leaksource.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/nsa-ant-loudauto.jpg
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> http://leaksource.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/nsa-ant-sparrow-ii.jpg
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> heh
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[21:20] <Laurenceb_> the "GENESIS" looks cool
[21:21] <Laurenceb_> that stuff must have cost a fortune to develop
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> http://leaksource.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/nsa-ant-cottonomouth-iii.jpg
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> genius
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[21:26] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: they use Rhode and Schwarz portable spectrum analyses to demod the audio bug
[21:27] <eroomde> this is a big-bucks operation
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> i was thinking the wages of the team that built all that stuff
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> got to be bazillions of man hours gone into it
[21:29] <eroomde> yep
[21:29] <eroomde> simple though
[21:30] <eroomde> modulating the reflected signal just with an IF
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[21:30] <Laurenceb_> the exploitable covert GSM base station is not simple
[21:30] <eroomde> where is that?
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[21:32] <Laurenceb_> http://leaksource.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/nsa-ant-candygram.jpg
[21:32] <Laurenceb_> http://leaksource.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/nsa-ant-cyclone-hx9.jpg
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[21:34] <eroomde> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-FSH3-R-S-3-03-Handheld-Spectrum-Analyzer-FSH-303-/350965935377?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51b7332d11
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> not bad
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> we could use one at work
[21:36] <eroomde> would sooner get the ZVL
[21:36] <eroomde> hopefully getting one for a job Real Soon Now
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> http://cdn.energymicro.com/dl/an/pdf/an0051_efm32_dsp.pdf
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> ^figure 4.1, wtf
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> why so slow
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[21:39] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: what do you mean?
[21:39] <eroomde> why is the CM3 so much slower than the CM4?
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> ~240k cycles on CM4
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> for 512 point fft
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> i calculate about 7 times fewer
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> unless they are being confusing and its not 512 point
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> should be just a couple of loads (twiddle and data), and a store, and a complex MAC
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> per data point, so ~10 cycles tops , times 512 times 9
[21:42] <eroomde> hang on let me catch up
[21:42] <eroomde> so N*log_2(N)
[21:42] <eroomde> 512 * 9
[21:42] <eroomde> ok
[21:43] <eroomde> and you reckon 10 cycles per point
[21:43] <eroomde> i can't really help, not tried to do it myself
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> complex MAC is 4 cycles using CM4 SIMD
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:43] <eroomde> but yes, that'd be about 50k
[21:43] <eroomde> cache misses?
[21:43] <eroomde> should be factor-of-five out
[21:43] <eroomde> shouldn't*
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> i guess that is on energy micro, not stm32
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> so no fancy flash accelerator
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> aiui that is running the ARM CMSIS library, so it has saturation and arbitrary size FFT support
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> maybe that gives a huge slowdown
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> FFT is more complex than i thought :-/
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[21:46] <Laurenceb_> especially doing pruned FFT without a bit reversal stage
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[21:46] <Laurenceb_> but it seems ARM CMSIS is slower than anything i'm looking at
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[21:51] <Laurenceb_> https://github.com/jhgorse/gcc-arm-none-eabi_samples/blob/master/CMSIS-SP-00300-r3p1-00rel0/CMSIS/DSP_Lib/Source/TransformFunctions/arm_cfft_radix2_q15.c#L184
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> arg wuutttt
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> ok that explains that one
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> easily 60 cycles in that loop
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[21:56] <gurgalof> build aa overkill payload with a CM4 in it
[21:57] <eroomde> cm4 is overkill for a payload?
[21:57] <nats`> Laurenceb it doesn't implement a cooley turkey fft ?
[21:58] <nats`> that would be surprising
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> nats': its does
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> but its very generalised, see the code
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[21:58] <nats`> I was looking in memory optimisationr ecently
[21:58] <gurgalof> what would you need all that power for in flight?
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> giving massive overkill
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> gurgalof: software GPS
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> hence the FFT
[21:58] <gurgalof> ah
[21:58] <cm13g09> chrisstubbs: ping
[21:59] <nats`> fiiou
[21:59] <nats`> Laurenceb clearly recoding it with targetted optimisation
[21:59] <gurgalof> or you could send telemetry with OFDM (fft's too)
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> nats': well you dont need saturation if you design your DSP chain correctly
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> and you can inline it using macro asm
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> giving a massive performance boost right away
[22:00] <nats`> yep
[22:00] <nats`> but I'm wondering why not using float
[22:00] <nats`> the dsp in M4 is one cycle I think
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> ewww
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> better than one cycle
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> SIMD
[22:01] <nats`> yep true :)
[22:01] <eroomde> gurgalof: compression/encoding/modulating for radio
[22:01] <nats`> yay pcb on their way home !
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[22:26] <adamgreig> gurgalof: i flew a cm4 payload
[22:26] <adamgreig> it was great
[22:26] <adamgreig> used floating point to divide the ublox lat/lng into decimal degrees and normal sprintf("%f") to output them
[22:26] <adamgreig> life was so much easier
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[22:27] <gurgalof> you could do that in software on a less powerful micro
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[22:28] <gurgalof> HW float is useful for highspeed float stuff, GPS isn't highspeed
[22:28] <gurgalof> so a small CM3 should be sufficient
[22:29] <eroomde> probably lower power though
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[22:31] <gurgalof> probably a little bit
[22:31] <eroomde> it's nice really to have the overhead to try things quickly
[22:31] <eroomde> whack an rtos on, give each thread 1k of stack without worrying too much
[22:32] <SpeedEvil> gurgalof: It's highspeed if you're doing it in software!
[22:32] <gurgalof> 1Hz or maybe 5Hz isn't fast
[22:32] <Laurenceb_> 8Msps baseband is fast
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> gurgalof: In software = take the ...
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> that
[22:33] <gurgalof> ah, "that"
[22:37] <gurgalof> this was the cheapest ublox I could find, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=291043189866&ssPageName=ADME:X:EAC:GB:3160
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[22:39] <qyx_> Voltage: 2.7V - 3.6V
[22:39] <qyx_> Power consumption: <80mW@1.8V
[22:39] <qyx_> heh
[22:41] <gurgalof> I don't think it works on 1.8V
[22:41] <eroomde> gurgalof: try upu, he buys them almost buy the real and sells them in low cost for single units
[22:41] <eroomde> he also sells the MAX7C units that will work at 1.8V
[22:41] <gurgalof> Im going for cheapest possible with my first one
[22:42] <eroomde> try Upu
[22:43] <qyx_> Laurenceb_: do you remember that single chip receiver you pasted last time?
[22:43] <qyx_> something from skyworks
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> se4110 ?
[22:43] <Darkside> ublox does a single chip one
[22:43] <Darkside> AMY6 i think
[22:43] <arko> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_64
[22:43] <arko> what eroomde said ^
[22:43] <gurgalof> next time then, I've already purchased the ebay one
[22:44] <eroomde> ask here first for low prices
[22:44] <qyx_> Laurenceb_: hm, propbably, thx
[22:44] <eroomde> given this has been done hundreds of times before, we at least know about a couple of local minima, price/performance-wise
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[22:47] <gurgalof> cheapest on upus store is GBP17.34, ebay 2 pcs but slighty bigger USD17.98
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[22:55] <arko> anyone have recommendations on books about orbital mechanics?
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[23:00] <eroomde> Fundamentals of Astrodynamics
[23:00] <eroomde> that's the sutton of orbital stuff
[23:01] <arko> danke
[23:01] <eroomde> i think it's in shit units tho
[23:02] <arko> non-SI?
[23:02] <arko> really?
[23:02] <arko> or did you mean something else by units
[23:05] <eroomde> yes
[23:05] <eroomde> non-si
[23:05] <eroomde> it's quite an old text
[23:05] <arko> :O
[23:05] <arko> wtf
[23:05] <eroomde> just the thing for radioactive payloads
[23:06] <arko> well, the concepts are important, i guess i could live with less superior units
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[23:06] <arko> neat
[23:07] <eroomde> re-write it in TeX with SI units as you go along
[23:07] <eroomde> the world will owe you one
[23:07] <arko> wanted to get a better understanding of gravity turns and how optimal orbits are determined
[23:07] <arko> hahahaha
[23:07] <arko> brilliant
[23:10] <arko> i really should be spending my time learning other things, but this stuff is way too interesting
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[00:00] --- Tue Dec 31 2013