highaltitude.log.20131220

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[00:01] <solarballoonman> quick question on parachutes.. what's the largest size anyone on here uses?
[00:02] <mattbrejza> the largest steve sells
[00:03] <solarballoonman> how big is that?
[00:06] <mattbrejza> !g random+engineering+parachute
[00:06] <mattbrejza> close enough
[00:10] <solarballoonman> I see so you can get up to 6ft diam chutes.
[00:11] <solarballoonman> ok for some of the larger bears that occasionaly get dropped.
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[00:16] <solarballoonman> Of to bed. Might have something interesting to say about 'chute's tommorow.
[00:16] <mattbrejza> night
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[00:18] <fsphil> oooh exciting
[00:26] <nats`> good night boyz
[00:26] <nats`> math at this hour it's insane
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[07:27] <MLow> UpuWork: you busy?
[07:33] <UpuWork> yes sorry very
[07:33] <UpuWork> PM me a message and I'll get back to you
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[07:56] <Maxell> Good morning!
[07:58] <Maxell> UY0LL-11 last height 600 meters, bummer. Looks like it was coming down right?
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[07:58] <Maxell> Or not floating?
[07:58] <Maxell> Climbing so fast :P
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[08:04] <craag> Maxell: They had GPS issues, and yes it was on the way down.
[08:04] <craag> Got up to about 24km I think, but their GPS failed at 18km/
[08:05] <craag> And their flight doc pointed at the wrong payload config, so none of their RTTY was accepted.
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[08:20] <Maxell> craag: eek
[08:20] <Maxell> Sounds horriable :o
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[08:47] <LeoB> mornings!
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[08:56] <Ericc> https://www.cosycave.co.uk/product.php?id_product=288 is this one good for receiving the signal from Nx2b?
[08:58] <mfa298> Ericc: that will work, but you will need a decent antenna to go with it (as with any radio reciever)
[09:00] <Ericc> can it track the ballon from start to the end?
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[09:01] <mfa298> you may also want a preamp and filter with it (like the habamp)
[09:01] <mfa298> that's likely to depend on location. In general you can only recieve the payload when you've got line of sight to it
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[09:02] <mfa298> when the balloon is low down you need to be close to hear it
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[09:04] <Ericc> Is the filter occasional ?
[09:07] <mfa298> tis is the habamp that's good if you're using the ntx2 http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=83
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[09:07] <mfa298> it goes between the antenna and dongle. It removes some of the things you don't wantt to hear and boosts the rest.
[09:09] <Ericc> So I should take my laptop , antenna and the dongle to chase the balloon
[09:10] <mfa298> if you're using an sdr dongle you need the laptop to use it.
[09:11] <mfa298> you'll want to be able to decode the data near to where it lands to find out where it is.
[09:12] <mfa298> when you're close it is possible to use a radio reciever and suitable antenna (something like a yagi) to direction find, but that can take more skill than decoding the gps data from the radio
[09:13] <Ericc> but its too large to install in the car
[09:13] <Ericc> how to solve it
[09:14] <mfa298> what's too large ?
[09:14] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
[09:15] <Ericc> antenna
[09:15] <Ericc> will you install it on car?
[09:17] <mfa298> for a car most people use a magmount antenna designed to go on a car
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[09:17] <x-f> Ericc, is this a solo project or are you a group of people?
[09:18] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[09:18] <x-f> put a message on the local ham forum, they will help you to track it
[09:20] <x-f> you mentioned a mountain in Taiwan, might be worth sending somebody up on it, in case your balloon will fly to the other side, he would then track to almost to the ground
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[09:20] <Ericc> I come from Taiwan . Its a small Island any many illegal radio user
[09:20] <x-f> you will know the prediction a few days ahead
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[09:21] <Ericc> Im afraid that the signal will be interrupt by others
[09:21] <x-f> anybody can listen to the radio, you don't need them to transmit which requires a licence
[09:21] <x-f> heh
[09:21] <Ericc> and the frequency 434Mhz is illegal here
[09:22] <x-f> well, it will be really hard to do it completely solo, you will need to involve some friends
[09:24] <Ericc> Im thinking about smartphone...
[09:24] <Ericc> Anyone try that before?
[09:24] <mfa298> for chasing you really want 2-3 people in the chase car. Trying to drive, and monitor the signal/data, and look at maps etc. on your own is near impossible unless you keep stopping
[09:25] <Ericc> yea
[09:25] <x-f> we were two in the car for our first launch, it was ok, three on the second - was better
[09:26] <x-f> don't rely on the smartphone, but you can surely have it as a backup
[09:26] <mfa298> anything using the gsm/3g network won't respond when it's over around 2km high, and may not work when it's on the ground.
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[09:26] <Ericc> any App for sent location by ams?
[09:26] <Ericc> sms
[09:27] <mfa298> it's potentially good as a backup but dont rely on it (I think for UK/Europe they've worked about 50% of the time)
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[09:30] <x-f> Ericc, is there an APRS network in Taiwan?
[09:30] <Ericc> yes
[09:31] <x-f> any chace of you getting a licence till summer, to use it? :)
[09:31] <Ericc> 144.64 Mhz
[09:31] <Ericc> I think so
[09:31] <x-f> chance*
[09:32] <Ericc> But I cant find the module fit the frequency
[09:32] <x-f> alternatively - i think there is an app for smartphones to report your position on aprs.fi even without any licence
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[09:33] <Ericc> How dose Aprs work?
[09:34] <Ericc> Dont need anything to receive the signal by myself?
[09:35] <LeoBodnar> I have been considering transmitting standard APRS packet from the ballon on ISM terms on 434MHz and gating it into aprs.fi
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[09:35] <x-f> generally it's the same principle - radio transmitter -> receiver -> internet
[09:35] <LeoBodnar> Over UK. Would that violate any known rules?
[09:36] <LeoBodnar> I guess somebody is already gating snus data to APRS network anyway with all UK balloons appearing as HB-**
[09:38] <Ericc> but how do I find the module fit to 144.64
[09:39] <mfa298> Ericc: there are some tuneable radio modules, or for APRS you could look at using a cheap handheld radio. although that adds weight
[09:40] <mfa298> I thought using aprs.fi you were only supposed to import AR traffic, and be licensed if you're using an app. Although it's easy enough to generate a passkey for it.
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[09:42] <Ericc> AR traffic
[09:42] <Ericc> ?
[09:43] <x-f> amateur radio
[09:43] <LeoBodnar> there are tonnes of apps that send position data generated by a smartphone over TCP/IP to APRS-IS without ever going on air.
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[09:48] <Ericc> how to connect R-pi to the hand held radio
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[09:50] <eroomde> youaudio out on the pi to audio-in on the radio
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[09:51] <gonzo__> therev are other microcontroler solutions that are far more compact
[09:51] <Ericc> got it
[09:52] <LeoBodnar> I don't think pi even has audio out
[09:52] <gonzo__> unless you are flying the pi for iother reasons
[09:52] <eroomde> it does have audio out
[09:52] <eroomde> the blue connector
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[09:53] <LeoBodnar> indeed eroomde
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[09:56] <LeoBodnar> are there audio input solutions for pi based on normal busses (SPI/I2C)?
[09:57] <eroomde> not sure
[09:58] <LeoBodnar> doesn't pi have an ADC?
[09:58] <eroomde> i have used the pi to try and make a lisp machine in assembler, i got about as far as getting characters to print on a screen, i though 'all down hill from here' and haven't touched it since
[09:58] <mfa298> I think i saw mention of things to get audio into the pi, but most people probably just play with various usb devices until they find one that works
[09:58] <eroomde> that's the total of my pi usage
[09:58] <eroomde> oh it's also a NAT for the office as it doesn't take much horsepower to distribute our 2MB wireless internet connection
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[10:06] <gonzo__> generating audio with an adc/sound card seems such a clumsy way of doing things
[10:06] <gonzo__> but that is the madern way... (engage grumpy old engineer mode)
[10:06] <gonzo__> modern
[10:12] <eroomde> well, you need to convert a bitstream to analogue at some point
[10:13] <nats`> hi boyz
[10:14] <gonzo__> always feels to me that this final leg should be done in the analogue domain
[10:15] <gonzo__> thougn small micro's are easilly capable fp doing an adc/pwm for this. But throwing a pi at it always seems a sledgehammer for a nut
[10:16] <eroomde> yes i agree
[10:16] <eroomde> if it's just aprs is bonkers
[10:16] <eroomde> i can only think a pi might help if you have some quite intensive encoding
[10:16] <eroomde> eg a huge generator matrix for LDPC codes or something
[10:17] <gonzo__> yep, if flying a pi, just because it's agvail, there should at least be some effort to utilise it to do something else.
[10:18] <LeoBodnar> pi has similar capability to an 800MHz eMac that was sold in early 2000s
[10:18] <nats`> yep but a crappy design making him totally unreliable
[10:18] <LeoBodnar> so yeah, using it to light up a few LEDs seems the sign of the times
[10:18] <gonzo__> I've not played, but get the impression that tey are quite capable
[10:19] <daveake> Yeah for a basic tracker the pi is mad. But if you do fly one, you should use it - e.g. camera, image processing, 3g, whatever
[10:19] <Ericc> But I have no idea how to start to build a board
[10:19] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHKm-i0yyOA
[10:19] <LeoBodnar> mine still works nats` :D
[10:20] <gonzo__> Ericc, you could looc at the arduinop as a starting point
[10:20] <gonzo__> -p
[10:20] <mfa298> Ericc: the way a lot of people started is with arduino
[10:20] <nats`> LeoBodnar just plug some exotic usb and loose the networking :D
[10:20] <gonzo__> snap
[10:20] <nats`> to not talk about old ftdi adapters :p
[10:21] <mfa298> which for a basic radio tracker (rtty on 434MHZ or APRS) should be enough
[10:21] <LeoBodnar> https://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_800.html
[10:21] <eroomde> have you been an appler always LeoBodnar?
[10:21] <nats`> :D
[10:22] <nats`> why not sending a NUC :D
[10:22] <gonzo__> should consider flying a 'basic' tracketr with a pi anyway. As there is the possability of crash/lockup on the pi. A backup tracker has saved a number of flights from total failure
[10:23] <eroomde> i mentioned this before but will do so again - TI now have some MSP430 16-bit micros that use ferror-ram
[10:23] <Laurenceb> now ??
[10:23] <LeoBodnar> no, fell in love with OS X around 2002
[10:23] <Laurenceb> i thought they had had them for ages
[10:23] <eroomde> it's a non-volatile ram, so it's used for both flash and ram
[10:23] <eroomde> ferro-ram sorry, for ferror
[10:24] <Laurenceb> heh
[10:24] <eroomde> so it has the write-cycle life of ram (i.e. infinitely better than flash) and is 10^2-10^3 lower power than flash, and it's also almost impervious to radiation-induced bit flips
[10:24] <eroomde> you get to decide at linker-time how you want to apportion the FRAM to code/data
[10:24] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:25] <eroomde> so as a sort of bomb-proof lower-power tracker it seems quite appealing
[10:25] <Ericc> so the R-pi is not so stable to be a tracker
[10:25] <Laurenceb> itd be nice to have registers using fram
[10:25] <eroomde> it should be able to do nice things like hot-restarts and so on
[10:25] <Laurenceb> then you could apply power and the micro will carry on where it left of
[10:25] <Laurenceb> actually thats kind of silly - need to initialise stuff
[10:26] <Laurenceb> guess you can do a brownout interrupt and dump registers to fram
[10:26] <eroomde> you could have some process that writes some state vector to fram every heardbeat
[10:26] <mfa298> Ericc: it can be but takes some work, Ideally you need to change some components on the board, you also need to ensure the SD card is secure.
[10:26] <Laurenceb> then boot up to where you left off
[10:26] <eroomde> and use that to insert yourself into the correct state on power-up
[10:26] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:26] <eroomde> have some check to see if it's fresh or something
[10:27] <eroomde> the lunar module have a flight computer that could do hot restarts
[10:27] <eroomde> saved their bacon
[10:27] <mfa298> With the arduino the code is burnt onto the chip so you don't have worry about SD cards becoming loose
[10:27] <eroomde> i wanted a micro exactly like that for our 2-stage sounding rocket that we did last year
[10:28] <eroomde> my biggest fear was an in-boost reset, because that would just nadger the state machine
[10:28] <Laurenceb> need fram + arm
[10:28] <Laurenceb> that would be epic
[10:28] <LeoBodnar> being slashdotted for anything Apple related provides an excellent test for your hosting provider
[10:28] <Laurenceb> lol
[10:29] <eroomde> and in a 2-stage rocket the state machine was quite important, because the upper stage flight computer i had detected the acceleration burn of the lower stage, then detecting the burnout, then timing a coast, then firings its own stage motor, and so on
[10:29] <LeoBodnar> FRAMs are available as external chips
[10:29] <eroomde> yep
[10:30] <LeoBodnar> so FARM design is possible
[10:30] <eroomde> i also wrote the software for this flight computer in the tent at the launch site the night before, which gave me pause when i realised it was my friend (and now colleague) who'd be arming the rocket
[10:30] <Laurenceb> heh
[10:31] <eroomde> the annoying thing is the only micos with external memory busses tend to be a lot bigger and more expensive
[10:31] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:31] <eroomde> i'd like a little cortex with say 32-64K of fram
[10:31] <eroomde> that'd be lovely
[10:31] <eroomde> tqfp44 or something
[10:32] <Laurenceb> http://e2e.ti.com/support/microcontrollers/stellaris_arm/f/471/t/45449.aspx
[10:33] <LeoBodnar> Who'd be the first to release FRAM ARM?
[10:33] <Laurenceb> ill take that as a no
[10:33] <Laurenceb> Ti
[10:33] <LeoBodnar> I'd say Freescale or TI
[10:33] <eroomde> the stm32f3 does have some special registers infact
[10:34] <Laurenceb> yeah, TI have CMOS/FRAM line
[10:34] <eroomde> that are kept hot despite a restart
[10:34] <Laurenceb> eroomde: most/all stm32 have battery backed registers
[10:34] <Laurenceb> but if they lose power as well...
[10:34] <Laurenceb> i was playing with non initialised sram region on stm32
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[10:35] <Laurenceb> if you do a soft reset it is kept
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[10:36] <LeoBodnar> Is ARM memory dynamic?
[10:37] <Laurenceb> what do you mean dynamic?
[10:38] <LeoBodnar> As in technology - needs constant refreshing
[10:38] <Laurenceb> depends on the device
[10:38] <Laurenceb> most micros are sram
[10:38] <LeoBodnar> Then the whole of RAM should retain contents when clock has stopped or MCU restarted. Why do you need special registers? To get around silly C compiler WMDs?
[10:39] <eroomde> static
[10:39] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: to avoid losing data on power loss
[10:39] <Laurenceb> it has its own supply rail
[10:39] <LeoBodnar> Special registers set?
[10:40] <Laurenceb> yes, the "special" registers run off vbat
[10:40] <LeoBodnar> OK
[10:40] <Laurenceb> but you are right - i got non initialised sram to work as "data storage"
[10:40] <Laurenceb> by changing the linker script
[10:41] <LeoBodnar> What is the RAM contents retaining voltage on ARMs?
[10:41] <Laurenceb> but if you have a complete board brownout it loses data
[10:41] <Laurenceb> depends...
[10:41] <Laurenceb> on stm32f4 maybe 1.7v
[10:41] <LeoBodnar> On other micros it is usually below minimum operating voltage
[10:42] <Laurenceb> yes
[10:42] <Laurenceb> but prob not very far
[10:42] <LeoBodnar> so you can devise two-level power system with backup battery keeping mcu RAM warm while it is actually not operating
[10:42] <Laurenceb> hmm
[10:43] <Laurenceb> yeah i guess you could so long as it wouldnt back power the other stuff
[10:43] <eroomde> seems asking-for-trouble to me
[10:43] <eroomde> for something important
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[10:43] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:44] <LeoBodnar> well then if state does not change too often and the variables are not too many one can store state in EEPROM
[10:44] <Laurenceb> yeah ive used that technique on my balloons
[10:45] <eroomde> indeed, but in the example of the rocket computer i specifically rejecting eeprom because of the rtequirment to store state every tick
[10:45] <eroomde> and ticks were 50Hz
[10:45] <nats`> 1.65v for the data retention typically on cortex
[10:45] <eroomde> so leaving it on the desk for a few minutes while debugging could nadger the eeprom
[10:45] <nats`> I think you could lower it to 1.50v
[10:45] <db_g6gzh> The first microcontroller controlled PMR radio I worked on had the on/off switch connected to reset and looked at saved state to decied whether to power the main circuitry on or off etc.
[10:46] <LeoBodnar> YOu have a good few hours at 50Hz
[10:46] <LeoBodnar> EEPROM not FLASH
[10:46] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Are there likely to be any more flights over the weekend LeoBodnar ?
[10:47] <LeoBodnar> not planned yet Geoff-G8DHE-M but can't rule out categorically :D
[10:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> OK, I'll leave the other Dongle running then ;-)
[10:47] <eroomde> eeprom was rated at 100k write cycles
[10:48] <eroomde> at 50Hz, that's 2000s
[10:48] <Ericc> Is this one good for fly? http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-2012-Version-UNO-R3-Development-Board-MEGA328P-ATMEGA16U2-USB-Cable-f-Arduino-/181284654456?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a35684d78
[10:48] <eroomde> ok, that's ignoring doing wear levelling or something cleverer
[10:48] <eroomde> but that's less than 1hr
[10:48] <LeoBodnar> Typical SPI EEPROM is 1mln+
[10:48] <eroomde> it could be sitting on the pad for 2 hours waiting for a weather window
[10:48] <eroomde> well, it's rated at 100k, and given this is for something that's actually dangerous/important, i'm not going to risk it
[10:48] <eroomde> it's not a hab or a fridge or a toaster
[10:49] <LeoBodnar> OK I was not actually arguing :D
[10:49] <Laurenceb> http://s1.b3ta.com/host/creative/90662/1387531998/emo.jpg
[10:50] <LeoBodnar> lol
[10:50] <eroomde> the other fun lesson from a human-device interation point of view
[10:50] <eroomde> i had a status led on the rocket
[10:51] <eroomde> it just had a 1Hz heartbeat to show the flight computer was on but not armed
[10:51] <eroomde> it then went to 4Hz to show you'd armed it correctly
[10:52] <eroomde> the person arming the rocket had to climb up the launch tower, in full motorcycle leather and helment (to hopefully stop you being killed should it fire accidently) to rotate the arming switch
[10:52] <eroomde> iain did this, and i was in constant radio contact with him throughout
[10:52] <eroomde> he wasd quite nervous as this was quite a scary rocket
[10:53] <eroomde> i told him that the status LED would blink just at 'heart rate' when the flight computer was on but not armed, and fatser once it was armed
[10:54] <eroomde> well, we worked out his heart rate was nearer the armed 4Hz than the unarmed 1Hz
[10:54] <eroomde> so he couldn't actually tell what state the flight computer was in
[10:54] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/7316358262/in/set-72157630002319102
[10:55] <eroomde> that's him about to climb the tower to arm the 2nd stage
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[10:56] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/7316188428/in/set-72157630002319102
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[10:57] <LeoBodnar> coolio
[10:58] <eroomde> that was slightly long-winded, basically people are bad at estimating flashing freuqnecies when nervous
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[10:58] <gonzo__> I'd be nervous if there was a flasher around!
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[10:59] <eroomde> we were about 15 miles from the nearest humans at that point
[11:00] <eroomde> it's pretty much the most remote spot in the UK
[11:00] <gonzo__> that would be yeovil then!
[11:00] <LeoBodnar> So technically you were classed as superhumans at that moment?
[11:00] <eroomde> inland of golspie
[11:01] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[11:01] <eroomde> in the middle of that bit of the north-eastern mainland scotland
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[11:02] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_capacitor#Class_3_ceramic_capacitors
[11:02] <Laurenceb> lol its EEStor
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[11:04] <fsphil> was B-33 recovered? (not read history)
[11:11] <LeoBodnar> I don't think so
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[11:14] <LeoBodnar> LTSpice quick question: how do I insert S parameters list for MOSFET into generic part? http://www.nxp.com/documents/S-parameter/BLF177_50V100mA.s2p
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[11:18] <eroomde> ok so can-o-worms time
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[11:21] <Ugi> HI Guys - anyone see Stratodean in the Metro this morning? They had nearly all of page 3 with a HAB santa! May be old news around here.
[11:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> They made the DailyFail and the BBC and the UK SPace centre Xmas card ;-)
[11:23] <eroomde> given people sometimes fly several payloads per balloon, are we saying that multiple 10mW Tx's from a balloon is OK?
[11:23] <fsphil> that's my understanding
[11:23] <Ugi> Must have missed those - well not much to miss in the Mail I guess.
[11:24] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: no idea about LTSpice
[11:25] <eroomde> Bob Pease apparently punched a junior engineer once when they dared to question what we said about a circuit because Spice said something diferent
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[11:28] <fsphil> guess he wasn't pease'd
[11:28] <gonzo__> he was being pod-antic?
[11:28] <fsphil> how good/bad is ltspice?
[11:29] <daveake> it was the junior who was a bit green
[11:29] <gonzo__> he may have bean
[11:29] <daveake> then he did a runner
[11:30] <eroomde> when bob pease was asked what his favourite programming language was, he replied: 'solder'
[11:30] <fsphil> hah
[11:30] <eroomde> i think bob pease could be the chuck norris of electronics
[11:30] <fsphil> it's starting to sound like it
[11:35] <gonzo__> he has his finger on the pulse
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[11:46] <nats`> LeoBodnar you found how to do that ?
[11:47] <nats`> you can use .STEP PARAM ID FIRST_VALUE LAST_VALUE STEP_SIZE
[11:47] <nats`> you just put the parameter inthe device
[11:47] <nats`> {ID}
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[11:50] <nats`> oh I misread your question
[11:50] <nats`> you need to extract a spice model from your S parameter file
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[12:12] <LeoBodnar> Ironic that Bob Pease wrote a book "How to Drive Into Accidents ... and How Not To" and died in a car crash
[12:12] <LeoBodnar> Ironic and very sad
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[13:05] <Herman-PB0AHX> any ballon today ???
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[13:39] <SpeedEvil> Bob Pease > Paul Walker
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[14:17] <Laurenceb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25106956
[14:17] <Laurenceb> interesting
[14:17] <Laurenceb> they need some of my kit
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[14:31] <eroomde> we're bandwidth limited, not power limited
[14:31] <eroomde> assuming ham radio audio passbands
[14:31] <eroomde> d'oh
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[15:08] <eroomde> Darkside: ping
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[15:44] <Ericc> Arduino have many types . Which one is recommend to fly?
[15:46] <LeoBodnar> after 50 years of deciphering they were able to read the scrolls. It read "2 pints of milk, bread, fags."
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[15:48] <eroomde> UpuWork: what's the gain of your yagi?
[15:49] <mattbrejza> Ericc: a 3.3V one
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[15:52] <LeoBodnar> The appeal of slow modes like CW is in the fact that it takes longer to transmit than to compose. Makes you think what you are sending.
[15:53] <fsphil> like the ents
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[15:55] <fsphil> spacenear's doing that thing where it doesn't load the info boxes again
[15:58] <nats`> Ericc I suggest arduino without arduino :D
[16:03] <Laurenceb> an arduino board without the "arduino microcontroller"
[16:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Habduino ?
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[16:03] <Ericc> http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNO-ATMEGA-328P-ATmega-8U2-For-ARDUINOs-IDE-/131064785479?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e8411ea47
[16:03] <Ericc> how about this one
[16:05] <LeoBodnar> lolz http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linux%20on%208bit
[16:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://www.habduino.org/
[16:05] <nats`> LeoBodnar this project is pure genius
[16:05] <nats`> but read his CV
[16:05] <nats`> works mainly in virtual machine field :)
[16:06] <fsphil> that the linux on an arm emulated on an avr?
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[16:08] <nats`> yep
[16:08] <mattbrejza> Ericc: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11114
[16:08] <nats`> with ram socket etc
[16:08] <nats`> :D
[16:09] <nats`> "Curiously enough, once booted, the system is somewhat usable. You can type a command and get a reply within a minute. "
[16:09] <nats`> :D
[16:10] <fsphil> hah
[16:11] <nats`> now linux on x86 emulator on cortex
[16:12] <nats`> running virtualbox with windows7
[16:12] <nats`> using a dosbox
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[16:13] <UpuWork> eroomde about 17db I think
[16:14] <UpuWork> http://www.f9ft.com/pdf/220319e.pdf
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[16:18] <Willdude123_> Hello
[16:18] <Willdude123_> Had a half day today :-)
[16:19] <Willdude123_> Gosh, 17db
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[16:19] <Willdude123_> UpuWork did you build it?
[16:22] <Laurenceb> interesting
[16:22] <Laurenceb> https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/new_products?page=4
[16:26] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GASFa7rkLtM#t=593
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[16:31] <SpeedEvil> The nutter squad. :)
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[16:46] <number10> someone who used to work where I do himseld doing that
[16:47] <number10> killed himself
[16:47] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[16:55] <g0azs> Is you think that's mad, watch this... http://youtu.be/8L8UCfxmtSw
[16:55] <g0azs> *If*
[16:56] <Willdude123_> number10: deliberately?
[16:57] <number10> an accident Willdude123_
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[16:58] <nats`> SpeedEvil still alive ?
[16:58] <nats`> you didn't started your welder do you ? :D
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> I have some plans - at teh moment I haven't ordered parts, or done detailed sims
[17:00] <nats`> that would be fun to put a massive piezo on such a setup :D
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> It's not really ideal for that.
[17:05] <Laurenceb> someone ran a peizo disk at 200v and fitted it on a reprap
[17:05] <Laurenceb> looked interesting
[17:06] <Laurenceb> polymer inkjet
[17:07] <nats`> SpeedEvil I was thinking at some stone destroyer I saw
[17:07] <nats`> ohhhh did you already see the guy who did a metal extractor from stone with HV ?
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6yTrVq3J96Y#t=434 - how not to base jump
[17:10] <Laurenceb> http://www.reprappro.com/products/ormerod/
[17:10] <nats`> SpeedEvil I prefer the guy destroy the wall he is under :D
[17:10] <Laurenceb> this almost looks decent
[17:10] <Laurenceb> £500 at RS
[17:11] <Laurenceb> nice controller http://www.reprappro.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/duet-al.jpg
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[17:12] <Laurenceb> pity about the teeny JTAG port
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[17:14] <nats`> http://www.lucidscience.com/gal-rock%20disaggregator-1.aspx <= just for you SpeedEvil :)
[17:18] <Ericc> does Habduino come with Gps and radio antennas ?
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> nats`: neat
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[17:32] <Upu> yes Ericc
[17:32] <Upu> you have to do some work on the radio antenna
[17:32] <Ericc> Can I use the handheld radio and antenna to receive the signal?
[17:32] <Upu> but its supplied with a RG174 pig tail to make one
[17:32] <Upu> depends which radio
[17:32] <Upu> needs to be 70cms USB
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[17:34] <eroomde> SSB
[17:34] <eroomde> will be the spec to look for
[17:34] <Upu> sorry yes
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[17:37] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8wfMnpaaEY&list=PL0C38B365585B822D
[17:38] <mfa298> Ericc: if you're using the ukhas rtty (or DominoEX) method then the receiver needs to be SSB capable the rtl-sdr will do that or there's a list of some suitable radios on http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide some of which are handheld / portable.
[17:38] <KF5WYX> Did anyone create a hx1 component for eagle? or NTX2 (same pin sizes I think)
[17:39] <mfa298> if you are able to use APRS (I think possible on the habduino with extra components) then a more simple FM only handheld radio might be suitable.
[17:40] <mfa298> KF5WYX: there's an eagle library linked from http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_63&product_id=92 which has the NTX2 layout
[17:41] <KF5WYX> Many thanks
[17:45] <KF5WYX> Excellent, the same library has the hx1
[17:59] <Willdude123> I've made it my mission to find a £450 used ft-857d
[18:00] <mfa298> might be possible on eBay, I think you might struggle in a shop.
[18:02] <Willdude123> Seen a few in radcom though
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> It's easy with the right auction software.
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> http://xkcd.com/416/
[18:03] <mfa298> likely to depend on how long you are prepared to wait. If you want something quickly it might cost more or you might need to have a few options of what to buy.
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[18:08] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
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[18:13] <LeoBodnar> Should we try RTTY or DomEX over FM on 434?
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[18:14] <eroomde> no
[18:14] <LeoBodnar> I will then
[18:14] <arko> thats the spirit?
[18:14] <eroomde> it's the same as ssb except needs about 10 times the energy per symbol for a given bit error rate
[18:14] <eroomde> only advantage would be no drift
[18:14] <LeoBodnar> refusenik / contrarian
[18:15] <LeoBodnar> I also want to try APRS over SSB
[18:15] <eroomde> that would definitely improve things
[18:15] <eroomde> just need decent freq alignment between tx and rx
[18:16] <LeoBodnar> +-100Hz seems to be fine for APRS
[18:16] <eroomde> well, for fm it doesn't matter
[18:16] <LeoBodnar> lots of modems use 1300/2100 tones instead of 1200/2200
[18:16] <eroomde> carrier freq errors just become dc offsets when decoded, which get filtered out
[18:17] <LeoBodnar> I mean tones, not carrier
[18:17] <eroomde> oh right
[18:17] <eroomde> sure
[18:17] <LeoBodnar> so SSB with TCXO should be OK
[18:17] <eroomde> we did do ssb over fm a few times
[18:17] <eroomde> i think generation 2 did it also to make it easy to drive and ntx2 with an android phone
[18:18] <eroomde> should basically work ok but it's massively less efficient
[18:18] <eroomde> but hey, we send data at like 50bps which is probably some microfraction of the shannon limit for out 3khz and 10mw from a hab
[18:18] <eroomde> so what do we care about efficiency
[18:20] <LeoBodnar> Winter is too bad for any type of modulation and summer is abundant with energy to tolerate even AM voice
[18:20] <eroomde> that makes my head hurt
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[18:21] <JDat> hello there
[18:21] <LeoBodnar> solar energy wise
[18:21] <mfa298> aprs on 434 FM has been done, just doesn't seem to be much point as there's no-one listening for it by default.
[18:21] <JDat> iz have an idea about hi alt ballon party
[18:21] <LeoBodnar> +"-" -" "
[18:22] <eroomde> my knowledge of how solar helps is limited
[18:22] <JDat> can I use habhub infrastructure to lonch from one place 30 ballons at the same time
[18:22] <eroomde> wouldn;t have thought much for LoS UHF
[18:23] <JDat> all balloons with RTTY
[18:23] <eroomde> JDat: you can try, i'm not sure if you'll get enough listeners to track all 30 at once
[18:23] <JDat> is it OK to use habhub infrastructure?
[18:23] <LeoBodnar> TDMA on same freq?
[18:23] <eroomde> and i'm not sure you'll get enough spectrum to have 30 independent trackers all on continuously either
[18:23] <mfa298> tracking them and not having frequency conflicts would probably be the biggest problem
[18:23] <eroomde> yeah would need some TD
[18:23] <JDat> listenes isn't problem
[18:24] <eroomde> is it not?
[18:24] <LeoBodnar> APRS would be ideal with its <1sec packet length
[18:24] <JDat> TDMA+GPS+RTTY also isn't problem. the only question is about habhub tracking infrastructure
[18:24] <eroomde> thyou mean just the online map?
[18:24] <JDat> yes
[18:24] <JDat> online map
[18:24] <mfa298> I don't think habitat would have an issue
[18:24] <LeoBodnar> just use aprs.fi
[18:25] <JDat> and also data parser
[18:25] <mfa298> spacenear.us might have issues with googles broken api but there are alternative maps (using the same habhub data)
[18:25] <JDat> 30 balloons at the same time can be huge load for habhub infrastructure
[18:26] <LeoBodnar> "huge" ?
[18:26] <eroomde> would have thought it ok - what is your receiving system?
[18:26] <mfa298> I think the load on habitat is from the number of listeners, As most listeners would only be able to manage 2 or 3 payloads I doubt it would make much difference.
[18:26] <LeoBodnar> If you don't pipe data continuously over 600 baud RTTY
[18:27] <LeoBodnar> So what't the point of this?
[18:27] <LeoBodnar> *Not that current activity has any point
[18:27] <JDat> imagine that there ar 30 balloons from schools. all balloons are lounchet at the same time from the same launch site, so tracking for 50 KM radios isnt prblem on receiver end.
[18:28] <eroomde> yes but who/what is listening to the balloons?
[18:28] <eroomde> arte they all sharing the same freq and taking turns to transmit?
[18:28] <eroomde> are they all transmitting constantly all on different freqs??
[18:28] <JDat> as www.zinoo.lv are working on education for school, there is an idea that everyone can launch own baloon on science party
[18:28] <eroomde> a mix of both?
[18:29] <mfa298> JDat: I think the issue you'll have is finding a good receiver that can track 30 different payloads, you're probably looking at 30 instances of dl-fldigi over several laptops if you're trying to track them all yourself.
[18:29] <JDat> ferquency, colldions etc is my problem
[18:29] <JDat> ;)
[18:30] <JDat> there is an idea for transmitter: http://lv.farnell.com/semtech/sx1240istrt/gpss-wl-sku-app1/dp/1892618
[18:30] <mfa298> I think you'de need to use a set of frequencies and then TDMA between several payloads on that frequency. Doing that well would be the challenge.
[18:31] <JDat> each balloon have unique ID and transmitting on own time slot
[18:31] <eroomde> make the time-slot thing reboust to gps failures
[18:31] <eroomde> we had bugs just trying to get 3 payloads to take turns according to gps time
[18:31] <JDat> rx time slot=GPS PPS signal+(packet lenght+guard interval)*baloonID
[18:32] <eroomde> but yes, i'm sure the habhub infrastructure could take it, and as it's for a school i'm sure it'd be very welcome
[18:32] <eroomde> but the engineering of the transmitters is probably the challenge here (good luck!)
[18:32] <JDat> right not it is just an idea
[18:32] <eroomde> habhub has its own channel for technical/server discussion by the way, #habhub
[18:32] <JDat> ok
[18:32] <eroomde> but in principle i'm sure it could be done
[18:32] <mfa298> thinking of the amounts of data some of dave's flights have had 300/600 baud with lots of listeners you probably wouldn't get much over those levels.
[18:32] <JDat> thank you anyway
[18:34] <mfa298> JDat: with that radio module you'll want to check what baudrates you can get it to do, If it's fixed at a high rate it may not be that suitable for HAB use.
[18:34] <JDat> if all balloons are launchet at the same time from the same launch site, than balloons will fly in the same dirrection and land in the same place
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[18:34] <mfa298> we get the larger distances by using relativly low baudrates
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[18:34] <JDat> challange: each balloon launcher must see this balloon
[18:34] <LeoBodnar> min freq deviation on SX1240 is 10kHz
[18:35] <JDat> 10 kHz... 9600 baud or 4800 baud :)
[18:35] <JDat> or 1200 baud ;)
[18:35] <mfa298> landing on the same place is likely to be dependant on getting the same ascent rate / descent rate and burst altitude to match. which will be dependant on payload weight, gas fill and balloon size.
[18:35] <eroomde> but too wide for amateur radio receivers
[18:35] <JDat> it depends...
[18:35] <eroomde> most of them anyway
[18:36] <LeoBodnar> It's too much for SSB and NFM
[18:36] <eroomde> what's a good figure for the noise power for 3khz bandwidth on 70cm?
[18:36] <JDat> not exactly same place, but +/- 5 KM range is OK
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[18:36] <eroomde> i actually want to see but what factor we're not using our channel efficiently
[18:37] <JDat> I will test RF part later on prototype and on field tests
[18:37] <LeoBodnar> What you are going to RX it with?
[18:38] <JDat> dl-fldigi isn't the only option. I think that GNU Radio companion will do the data decoding job with RTL-SDR
[18:38] <mfa298> JDat: for fsk (rtty) most people use 50/300/600 baud which does work for a good range.
[18:38] <JDat> one of the ideas is to test high speed downlink
[18:38] <mfa298> if you want to upload data to habitat and use spacenear.us dl-fldigi is the easiest option, otherwise you'll need to write your own interface to upload the data.
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[18:39] <JDat> amybe it isn't really legal, but we are doing it for education, so I hoe, there wil bee no big problems with law
[18:39] <LeoBodnar> Technically it is not going to work well
[18:40] <JDat> interface for spacenear.us will be leaver for my programmer :D
[18:40] <JDat> leaved* :D
[18:40] <LeoBodnar> 10kHz deviation is designed for high speed link
[18:40] <JDat> linux, curl, bash stuff, sockets :D
[18:41] <LeoBodnar> It's pointless to use 50 baud with such a massive BW
[18:41] <JDat> ok
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> And you are guaranteeing from the outset that no single ham receiver will be able to receive it
[18:42] <JDat> I am going to technical breefing for this project (drink some beer) :D
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> Use CW lol, the chip can do that :D
[18:42] <eroomde> ok then peeps
[18:43] <eroomde> it's the hab version of weigh-the-cow time
[18:43] <qyx_> hm, 30 baloons using tdma @ 50baud?
[18:43] <eroomde> you have a hab which is 100km away from you, LoS, 10mW Tx, a quarter wave with ground plane antenna at both ends
[18:43] <JDat> some local HAMs are welcome if there is some activity on 70 CM band, some oldfart HAMs are thinking that 70 CM belong to them.
[18:43] <LeoBodnar> Sputnik did ok with pips
[18:43] <eroomde> and you're listening to it with a decent amateur rig like my icon IC-7000
[18:43] <eroomde> can anyone guess what the theoretical capacity of this channel - our normal hab-flight channel - is, in bps?
[18:44] <JDat> We have some support from HAMs regarding TXing on 70 cm
[18:44] <eroomde> through in 5dB of losses from cables and connectors and so on
[18:44] <LeoBodnar> ca 2kbps?
[18:44] <LeoBodnar> *guess
[18:44] <JDat> well, what is tipical pacek len in bytes for ballon?
[18:44] <eroomde> higher
[18:45] <JDat> 20 characers?
[18:45] <JDat> 50 characters?
[18:45] <JDat> 50*30=1500 characters
[18:45] <craag> eroomde: 20kbps?
[18:45] <eroomde> 13kbps
[18:45] <mfa298> depends on what data you want to send back
[18:45] <JDat> 1500*10 bits=15000 baudrate minimum
[18:45] <LeoBodnar> with RL QRM?
[18:46] <craag> That's rather good, but relies on flat noise
[18:46] <eroomde> no, that's ignoring qrm
[18:46] <eroomde> that's just receiver sensitivity
[18:46] <eroomde> which is however a great deal worse than the thermal noise floor
[18:46] <JDat> to reduce BW, it is possible to use some king of compression...
[18:46] <JDat> BDC packing reduce BW by factor of 2
[18:46] <craag> Still, with FEC, you still get a data rate >>50 baud
[18:47] <eroomde> yes
[18:47] <eroomde> however, we're bandwidth constrained
[18:47] <mfa298> JDat: you can reduce that by spliting the balloons over a few frequencies (so 3 channels would give you 10 balloons per channel)
[18:47] <eroomde> not power constrained
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[18:47] <eroomde> MFSK is completely not the answer
[18:47] <craag> JDat: If you custom-design your telemetry, compression should not be possible.
[18:47] <eroomde> it's going to be some sort of QAM
[18:47] <qyx_> baloon mesh!
[18:47] <JDat> mfa298, yes. it is also option
[18:47] <LeoBodnar> *wakes up
[18:47] <eroomde> we should be able to do 2.4kbs downlinks routingly with 1/4 wave antennas
[18:48] <JDat> ok
[18:48] <eroomde> that much is clear to me from this quick sum
[18:48] <JDat> thank you guys. I'm going to drinken shnappsenn :D
[18:48] <craag> eroomde: We need a better modulation than rtty :/
[18:48] <eroomde> so MFSK bandwidth is (M+1)/(symbol_rate)
[18:49] <LeoBodnar> and binary format please
[18:49] <JDat> 256-QAM modulation :D
[18:49] <eroomde> oh yes binary format
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[18:49] <eroomde> i assume compression and good correction
[18:49] <eroomde> but the data rate for arbitrary data should be 2.4, i think
[18:49] <eroomde> we can decompress that how we want
[18:49] <eroomde> sorry not symbol_rate, symbol_time
[18:50] <eroomde> so that's, for 15FSK, 1/(2400*4)
[18:50] <eroomde> 16FSK*
[18:50] <eroomde> which is 1/600
[18:50] <JDat> OFDM modulation like in 802.11n
[18:50] <eroomde> so the bandwidth needed for MFSK to get 2.4kbps is (16+1)/(1/600)
[18:50] <JDat> ok just a joke
[18:50] <eroomde> which is a shit tone more than the 3khz we can use in amateur radio
[18:51] <eroomde> so MFSK won't even get us into the same zip code as the shannon limit
[18:51] <eroomde> it's gotta be QAM
[18:51] <craag> QPSK?
[18:51] <eroomde> OFDM is good for multipath and fading
[18:51] <eroomde> we don;t really have that
[18:51] <eroomde> the symbol rates are so low that tone lengths are like 60km
[18:51] <qyx_> hm, deep space telemetry uses 8psk, doesn't it?
[18:51] <eroomde> so you don;t really have to worry about multipath
[18:52] <eroomde> i'd rather use QAM to keep the spacing up
[18:52] <eroomde> and because the bandwidth is the limit here
[18:52] <JDat> deep space also use BPSK (voyager probes)
[18:52] <qyx_> so 16-WAM?
[18:52] <craag> Ah fair enough
[18:52] <qyx_> q
[18:52] <eroomde> yeah
[18:52] <eroomde> ]
[18:52] <eroomde> my gut feeling would be 16QAM
[18:52] <eroomde> as a good start
[18:52] <eroomde> good FEC
[18:53] <JDat> regarding deep sapace... http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/DPSummary/Descanso4--Voyager_new.pdf
[18:53] <eroomde> trellis coding
[18:53] <eroomde> that should put us into the right ballpark
[18:53] <JDat> ok bye!
[18:53] <craag> matt has started implementing some of his stuff I think
[18:53] <eroomde> none of this will be possible with ntx2s or anything else current
[18:53] <eroomde> we have to be able to use ssb Tx's
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[18:54] <craag> mystery empty git repo: https://github.com/mattbrejza/error-correction
[18:54] <eroomde> nice
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[18:54] <eroomde> but i mean we're just faffing around here trying to find another mode called Mediocia to implement
[18:54] <qyx_> at least README is here
[18:54] <eroomde> let's just start with physics and make something proper
[18:54] <craag> mm
[18:54] <LeoBodnar> see you later guys
[18:55] <eroomde> see you
[18:55] <eroomde> think i've found a holiday project :)
[18:55] <craag> Knocking up an RX in gnuradio that can then be put into gqrx should quite doable.
[18:55] <eroomde> yes
[18:55] <qyx_> i was thinking of using standard 24bit audio dac to make low cost sdr transmitter
[18:56] <eroomde> making the Tx will be interesting
[18:57] <craag> Yeah.. the balloon hardware would be a bit more pricey than NTX2s I think
[18:57] <eroomde> yeah
[18:57] <qyx_> unfortunetely it was placed to my work table swap space..
[18:57] <eroomde> but shmeh
[18:57] <eroomde> we've been insulting information theory for too long
[18:58] <qyx_> you just need dac, iq mixer and freq synthesizer, which should be cheap if you don't require wide tunnable range
[18:59] <craag> And then you need it to work in hab environments.. that bit could be fun.
[18:59] <qyx_> or any ook transmitter will do instead of it
[18:59] <eroomde> 2 dacs for an iq mixer?
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[18:59] <qyx_> single stereo dac for $1
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[19:00] <eroomde> fine
[19:01] <craag> Huh, the maths looked complex on the course, now I look at the tx implementation it's easy :P
[19:02] <qyx_> qam you mean?
[19:03] <craag> yep. maths is not my strong point.
[19:03] <eroomde> qam is simples
[19:03] <eroomde> it's just adding some AM to psk
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[19:05] <eroomde> the FEC will have to be good
[19:06] <eroomde> let's say we have a 'bit rate' of 4.8kbps with a 1/2 encoding for a datarate of 2.4kbps
[19:07] <eroomde> the BW of that will be 1.2kHz
[19:07] <eroomde> ok so let's make that 2.4khz and add more FEC
[19:07] <eroomde> so have a bit rate of 9.6kbps but with lots of fec
[19:08] <eroomde> it's just gonna sound like a very old modem
[19:10] <craag> Heh that'll make it easier for the 'Hams' to identify then :P
[19:11] <eroomde> :)
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[19:12] <eroomde> let's give this a whirl then
[19:14] <craag> I'd like having the 9.6kbps bitrate and then being able to play with the fec levels, there are plenty of stations out there with more than 1/4 waves!
[19:14] <eroomde> yes indeed
[19:14] <eroomde> there are knobs we can twiddle easily
[19:14] <craag> mm
[19:14] <eroomde> can get some yagi arrays on it
[19:14] <eroomde> upu has 17dB
[19:14] <eroomde> at 500km that's still 11kbps
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[19:15] <eroomde> but i would like an empirical figure for noise power for 3khz at 70cm
[19:15] <eroomde> as i'm still just assuming receiver sensitivity atm
[19:15] <craag> Yeah I've talked about having a downwards circ-polarised yagi (60 deg beamwidth or so) on the balloon, and then setting up underneath the flight path with a larger version pointing up.
[19:16] <eroomde> think you'd need a helicopter
[19:16] <craag> oh right?
[19:16] <qyx_> btw anyone considered dsss/psss?
[19:16] <eroomde> just to stay underneath it
[19:17] <eroomde> qyx_: assuming 3khz ham equipment here
[19:17] <eroomde> if you deconstrain yourself of that, there are hugely more possibilities
[19:17] <eroomde> but i'm not as i want ham stuff to stay
[19:18] <mattbrejza> craag: that repo is for when i write up my conference talk
[19:18] <mattbrejza> and to generally tidy stuff up
[19:18] <craag> Hmm maybe jsut a patch antenna on the balloon (~180 degree beamwidth), and yagi on the ground. I probably need to look at it a bit closer.
[19:19] <craag> Yeah 60 deg would be a rather small footprint.
[19:19] <craag> Ah ok matt
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[19:19] <eroomde> i'd just fire up yagis on the ground
[19:20] <mattbrejza> craag: i did start this a while ago http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:binary_protocol
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[19:20] <mattbrejza> my new boards was going to test this out
[19:20] <mattbrejza> but the bloody gps doesnt get lock...
[19:20] <mattbrejza> (well)
[19:20] <craag> ah yes
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[19:23] <craag> eroomde: I was trying to minimise path loss to the balloon while not getting into the null of the 1/4 waves. Anyway.. not even sure I'd need that much extra data throughput :P
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[19:24] <eroomde> but think of the pictures
[19:25] <eroomde> or being able to shell into your pi in-flight
[19:25] <eroomde> assuming an uplink of course
[19:25] <craag> that would be the next challenge :)
[19:25] <qyx_> shell over 50baud
[19:26] <eroomde> well we've done uplinks already
[19:26] <eroomde> but assuming a yagi and a few watts, you should be able to completely massacre the datarate
[19:27] <mfa298> with people getting the pi to do various modes (FM/WSPR) by doing things to the clock output I wonder if you could get it to act as the transmitter for some of this stuff. Might need some good test gear to make sure it's not doing anything to nasty elsewhere in the spectrum though.
[19:27] <eroomde> have got
[19:27] <eroomde> i'd just use an stm32 with its pair of 12bit dacs
[19:29] <craag> Well I was thinking you could quite easily interface to a uC from the Pi UART at those datarates.
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[19:29] <craag> (For SSDV-FEC)
[19:29] <eroomde> yeah
[19:29] <eroomde> or just encode a wav, and play it into an ssb tx
[19:30] <nats`> craag what would be the point of doing that ?
[19:30] <craag> True!
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[19:30] <nats`> you have arm with math copro + cmos sensors input etc...
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[19:31] <craag> nats`: I'm not so up on my embedded dsp programming :)
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[19:31] <craag> I'm on M0+ at the moment, nothing much more advanced yet.
[19:31] <nats`> M0+ is nice for low power simple stuff :)
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[19:31] <nats`> M3 and M4 are really powerfull
[19:31] <nats`> diner time !
[19:32] <craag> Yeah freescale have a nice new M4 board
[19:32] <eroomde> m4 could decode nicely
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> surely M0 can do 50 baud decoding of almost any modulation
[19:34] <eroomde> talking about 9.6k
[19:34] <arko> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwWm3HaDbnQ
[19:34] <arko> this is live btw
[19:36] <LeoBodnar> black screen
[19:36] <LeoBodnar> but live
[19:40] <arko> really?
[19:40] <arko> lol
[19:40] <arko> if youtube itar'd that
[19:40] <arko> but its international i think
[19:40] <arko> japan is in it
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[19:42] <LeoBodnar> must be Safari thing
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> or Flash
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[19:43] <qyx_> works ok using flash
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[20:29] <jcoxon> evening all
[20:30] <DL7AD> evening jcoxon
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[20:34] <LeoBodnar> evening
[20:34] <qyx_> evening
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[20:36] <Upu> evening
[20:37] <arko> evening
[20:37] <Upu> I like how you keep euro time arko despite being 7 hours out :)
[20:38] <arko> UTC is SI units for me
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[21:27] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: seems to be no good time to launch balloons
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[21:36] <LeoBodnar> indeed
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[22:00] <KF5WYX> Hmm, 6v of inline 1.5 AA cells -> 5v regulated for the HX1. Can't use 7805 because drop off is 2v. Any ideas?
[22:00] <daveake> MCP1825S
[22:00] <KF5WYX> I then need to go down to 3.3v for the lassenIQ, it won't tolerate 5 :-/
[22:01] <KF5WYX> thanks daveake, googling
[22:01] <daveake> though, 4 AAs for 5V is pushing it a bit since a flat one is~ 1V
[22:01] <daveake> So you won't get the full life from them
[22:02] <KF5WYX> I'm not sure what the best option is. I'm also considering coupling a solar cell to the input
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[22:03] <KF5WYX> Though that's probably just additional weight for no real gain.
[22:03] <mfa298> aww, I'd assumed the HX1 was similar to the ntx2 that it had a wide supply voltage range but looks like it needs a regulated 5v supply and it's 5v logic.
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[22:06] <Upu> 5V supply
[22:06] <Upu> I use a separate steup up
[22:06] <KF5WYX> Perhaps 6 AA's is best then - ensure 6v right down to flat and regulate it with the LDO -> 5 and ->3.3v. Might be somewhat wasteful with what gets dumpped.
[22:06] <Upu> On the one I did I used a steup up powered it fine from 2 x AA
[22:06] <KF5WYX> step up from 3.3?
[22:07] <Upu> it would do it from 1.8V
[22:07] <Upu> but the efficiencies got a bit crap
[22:07] <Upu> but yes easily
[22:07] <KF5WYX> That might be the way to go, fewer components to consider.
[22:07] <Upu> TPS61201DRC
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[22:10] <KF5WYX> The solar cell causes me pain. It's only advantage is if the payload is missing long enough for the cells to drain, it might provide the signal that saves the day.... but, for that, the cost of the additional weight + it's voltage is going to be erratic and therefore require more components to regulate.
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[22:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> Don't rely on a solar cell surving landing, they are rather delicate!
[22:11] <KF5WYX> That settles it then - I'd be as happy with the same weight in additional cells as with the solar.
[22:12] <KF5WYX> Simplifies the build too.
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[22:23] <KF5WYX> Is there any disadvantage to doing a step up to 5v from a regulated 3.3? (say the 7803 on the input line?)
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[22:33] <Upu> not really KF5WYX
[22:33] <Upu> you only switch the HX1 on when you need it anyway
[22:33] <Upu> however
[22:33] <Upu> you're probably going to have to learn to surface mount solder
[22:33] <KF5WYX> *nods, I already wired the enable signal.
[22:33] <KF5WYX> oh?
[22:33] <KF5WYX> :-/
[22:34] <Upu> hang one
[22:34] <Upu> on
[22:34] <Upu> I'll find the step up on Sparkfun
[22:34] <KF5WYX> I'm assured it's not too difficult, by those that are skilled :-P
[22:34] <Upu> easier than through hole imho
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[22:34] <Upu> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10255
[22:35] <KF5WYX> Actually Upu, I'm also looking at the sparkfun 7803 - it will supply upto 5v with a 1v dropout
[22:35] <KF5WYX> I would happily daisy chain two of them for 3.3v and 5v lines.
[22:37] <KF5WYX> Nice solder saver board there.
[22:37] <Upu> I ran 2 step ups one @ 1.8V for the µC + GPS and one at 5V for the HX1
[22:38] <KF5WYX> from a 3v supply?
[22:38] <Upu> single cell if you wanted
[22:38] <Upu> My GPS, Radio and µC runs at 1.8V
[22:38] <Upu> I clock the chip at 2Mhz
[22:39] <Upu> http://imgur.com/bbkggKZ
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[22:48] <LeoBodnar> Upu got the cold LiPos, testing now
[22:49] <Upu> ok cool let me know how it goes
[22:49] <LeoBodnar> k
[22:50] <Reb-SM3ULC> LeoBodnar: any balloons aimed for NE planned for the nearest week?
[22:51] <LeoBodnar> As soon as weather gets sensible there will be some
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[22:55] <Upu> its is a bit crap atm
[22:56] <daveake> just a bit
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[22:59] <Reb-SM3ULC> LeoBodnar: oki, i'll leave a receiver running then
[23:01] <LeoBodnar> cheers Reb
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[23:41] <chrisstubbs> Upu is there much inside a sarantel antenna that can actually break apart from just the solder connection to the PCB?
[23:42] <Upu> yeah
[23:42] <Upu> a little center bit
[23:42] <Upu> they don't respond well to being dropped
[23:42] <chrisstubbs> Well my hexacopter landed sarantel first
[23:43] <Upu> yeah thats not going to end well
[23:43] <LeoBodnar> sorryntel
[23:43] <Upu> give me a shout if you need to replace it
[23:43] <chrisstubbs> it gets 1 sat every now and again, the connection on the PCB is fine, tracks not ripped off or anything. Do you have any replacements?
[23:43] <Upu> yeah
[23:43] <Upu> SL1252R ?
[23:44] <chrisstubbs> http://www.flickr.com/photos/68579973@N02/11456278134/
[23:44] <Upu> oh wow
[23:44] <Upu> Sl1202
[23:44] <Upu> I might have one on the Spears board I can remove
[23:44] <Upu> anyway remind me tomorrow
[23:44] <chrisstubbs> Dont worry if you have to take something apart for it
[23:45] <Upu> I need some sleep
[23:45] <Upu> nah don't worry its in my scrap bin
[23:45] <Upu> night all
[23:45] <chrisstubbs> If your sure, cheers :)
[23:45] <chrisstubbs> Night!
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[23:58] <solarballoonman> Hi, need to know is there anyone other than daveake that will run/organise a flight, if some of the stuff is brought? I.e Balloon, gas and soft toy, (to be videoed and part of payload)
[23:59] <solarballoonman> should have included payload chute, in stuff brought.
[00:00] --- Sat Dec 21 2013