highaltitude.log.20131217

[00:00] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/1zagscND
[00:00] <LeoBodnar> One of the crazy projects I have done is polynomial regression approximation on dsPIC in 192-bit fixed point math
[00:01] <Laurenceb_> eek
[00:01] <LeoBodnar> in assembly of course
[00:01] <Laurenceb_> thats direct form 1, second order bandpass
[00:01] <adamgreig> sounds like fun
[00:01] <Laurenceb_> or should be...
[00:01] <LeoBodnar> I was a bit sceptical about loss of precision so kept all the bits intact until final stage
[00:02] <eroomde> FPGAs are cool
[00:02] <Laurenceb_> you might know the answer to this: i have incoming 12bit data, should i shift it up before putting it into the filter?
[00:02] <LeoBodnar> Have you run it on a sim?
[00:02] <Laurenceb_> only an octave sim
[00:02] <eroomde> you sit there with the vhdl and think 'oooh, why don't i invent a whole new number representation'
[00:03] <Laurenceb_> i should try an arm sim yeah
[00:03] <LeoBodnar> You can just stick trivial data cases in and see where the problem is
[00:03] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[00:03] <Laurenceb_> its not completely mad, looks like instability of some form tho
[00:04] <Laurenceb_> but my octave simulation runs nicely
[00:04] <LeoBodnar> do they all still need 7 voltage levels and 10W of power? eroomde
[00:04] <Laurenceb_> and yeah i did handle all the integers, no floats or doubles in ther e:P
[00:04] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: yep!
[00:04] <eroomde> i think i had 3 for the last layout
[00:05] <LeoBodnar> ok cool
[00:05] <eroomde> 3v3, 2v5 (for configuring) 1v8 (for the core)
[00:05] <chrisstubbs> Im off, night all
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[00:05] <Laurenceb_> quite a high core voltage
[00:05] <eroomde> maybe it was 1v2
[00:05] <eroomde> i am in two minds
[00:06] <eroomde> and don't remember
[00:06] <eroomde> or maybe it was 1v2 but 1v8 to configure and 2v5 for something else
[00:06] <eroomde> it was complicated
[00:07] <eroomde> so there was a mosfet on the jtag enable line that i put in there to switch the core voltage up to something else to reconfigure
[00:07] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: I usually only shift up when there is division coming and you want better resolution (sort of poor man's float)
[00:07] <eroomde> iirc
[00:07] <Laurenceb_> interesting, ok
[00:07] <Laurenceb_> im using "rsb r1, r1, r1, asr #7" style instructions to multiply by 1-2^(-n)
[00:07] <LeoBodnar> if anly multiplication and addition are used then shifting up (left) is pointless
[00:08] <Laurenceb_> ok
[00:08] <LeoBodnar> as it is linear
[00:09] <LeoBodnar> I can haz a look tomorrow if you want
[00:09] <Laurenceb_> ok thanks
[00:09] <LeoBodnar> do you have the algorithm anywhere i can refer to?
[00:09] <Laurenceb_> ill have more of a play with JTAG of course
[00:09] <Laurenceb_> http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fisher/cgi-bin/mkfscript
[00:10] <Laurenceb_> its Chebyshev, bandpass centered on 12kHz, 857kSps 16 bit halfwords of data input
[00:12] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/npQpspvg
[00:12] <Laurenceb_> ^quick and dirty sim of the algorithm
[00:13] <Laurenceb_> in b4 "omg for loops in octave"
[00:13] <LeoBodnar> cheers, I'l have a nosey
[00:13] <Laurenceb_> thanks
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[00:17] <Laurenceb_> output looks like http://imagebin.org/282398
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[00:21] <LeoBodnar> did the comments get truncated?
[00:22] <Laurenceb_> erm yeah - nano over ssh
[00:23] <LeoBodnar> so you are operating in fixed point integer math?
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[00:23] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/T9sqzedd
[00:23] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[00:24] <LeoBodnar> and 0x7FFF would be just below 2.0?
[00:25] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[00:25] <Laurenceb_> brb
[00:26] <Laurenceb_> theres no actual multiply
[00:27] <LeoBodnar> OK
[00:27] <Laurenceb_> it uses subtract with immediate arithmetic shift right
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[00:27] <LeoBodnar> cool I'll have a look
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[00:28] <Laurenceb_> to do single cycle *=+-(1-2^(-n))
[00:31] <LeoBodnar> so how 1.0 would look in a 16 bit register?
[00:32] <LeoBodnar> 0x4000?
[00:32] <Laurenceb_> i guess its not actual fixed point
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[00:32] <Lunar_Lander_> ah
[00:32] <Lunar_Lander_> there went the fuse
[00:32] <LeoBodnar> hah
[00:33] <Laurenceb_> as there is no "1.0" value
[00:33] <Laurenceb_> i hadn't thought of it like this before
[00:33] <Laurenceb_> previously i was using MAC with proper fixed point
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[00:33] <Laurenceb_> but MAC is slow on cortex M3
[00:34] <LeoBodnar> MAC automatically corrects for fixed point with extra shift
[00:34] <LeoBodnar> I think
[00:34] <Laurenceb_> but its 32x32->64 is several clocks on M3
[00:34] <Laurenceb_> M4 has nicer DSP
[00:35] <Laurenceb_> but im stuck on M3 for this thing :-/
[00:35] <LeoBodnar> better than ENIAC
[00:35] <Laurenceb_> lol
[00:36] <Laurenceb_> so yeah i guess its now just integers, not fixed point
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[00:37] <Laurenceb_> but coefficients of the form +-(1-2^(-n)) seem to be usable
[00:37] <Laurenceb_> in simulation...
[00:38] <LeoBodnar> So what are the coefficients in floating point or rational form?
[00:40] <LeoBodnar> I need write this on a nice squared paper pad tomorrow
[00:40] <Laurenceb_> 1.984375 and -0.9921875
[00:40] <Laurenceb_> heh
[00:40] <LeoBodnar> *to
[00:40] <LeoBodnar> ok
[00:41] <Laurenceb_> for y(n-1) and y(n-2)
[00:41] <Laurenceb_> the x coefficients are +1 and -1
[00:41] <LeoBodnar> cool, I'll look at it tomorrow, let me know if you find the problem
[00:41] <LeoBodnar> good night for now!
[00:43] <Laurenceb_> cya
[00:43] <Laurenceb_> thanks for the help :)
[00:43] <LeoBodnar> nps! :D
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[01:32] <MLow> where might i look for a launch schedule
[01:33] <MLow> or does such a thing not exist
[01:37] <Lunar_Lander_> ah on the UKHAS website is a Google Group where people announce launches
[01:45] <KT5TK> MLow, We're launching on the first weekend in January. You're welcome to join us...
[01:46] <MLow> hm, from houston area?
[01:46] <MLow> where abouts houston ?
[01:46] <KT5TK> Yes. 20 Miles West of Houston
[01:46] <KT5TK> So good for you
[01:46] <MLow> Katy by chance?
[01:46] <KT5TK> close
[01:47] <MLow> id be honored to join the hunt
[01:47] <KT5TK> NP. We'll make sure that the launch location is confirmed. Then I'll send you an email
[01:48] <KT5TK> Not sure if we're hunting though.
[01:48] <KT5TK> We're planing on two floaters
[01:48] <MLow> ah gotcha
[01:49] <KT5TK> One 1600g Hwoyee and one 10x foil cluster
[01:49] <MLow> ooooh, interesting, i assume really light payloads?
[01:49] <KT5TK> yes
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[01:50] <MLow> dusk launch?
[01:51] <KT5TK> Rather afternoon
[01:51] <MLow> seems like those doing floater pick dusk, I wonder why
[01:51] <KT5TK> The night float is stable.
[01:51] <MLow> pecanpico's?
[01:52] <KT5TK> However until the balloon reaches altitude it takes several hours
[01:52] <KT5TK> Yes, PP4
[01:53] <MLow> your work on those is awesome, i took one look at the si4463 datasheet and it made my head really hurt
[01:53] <KT5TK> Yes, they're pretty complex. I also use just a few basic features.
[01:55] <MLow> if i didn't work so damn much i want to try to understand it
[01:57] <MLow> never got my HX1 working right btw, like 50% decode rate, I gave up and ordered another
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[02:03] <MLow> o/ cuddykid
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[04:26] <heathkid> KT5TK: unless that 100 goes over 115k ft...
[04:26] <heathkid> 1600
[04:26] <heathkid> doesn't seem to like that
[04:26] <heathkid> = no floater
[04:27] <heathkid> floating at 100k+ ft. at night seems to = it'll burst not long after the sun rises
[04:27] <heathkid> true?
[04:30] <heathkid> this last weekend
[04:30] <heathkid> I can't remember who's it was
[04:30] <heathkid> my PC crashed hard... lost a lot
[04:31] <heathkid> launched from CA
[04:31] <heathkid> looked like a floater...
[04:31] <heathkid> landing in the Sea of Japan
[04:31] <heathkid> burst
[04:31] <heathkid> sun killed it... it went up to like 115k ft. and it burst
[04:33] <heathkid> that leaves me thinking maybe a LOT of smaller balloons w/ multiple cutdowns would work better
[04:33] <heathkid> or one large and a couple small barely inflated
[04:34] <heathkid> no to provide payload lift but just enough to lift itself
[04:34] <heathkid> say >105k ft. cutdown to release one of the tiny ones
[04:35] <heathkid> to maintain float without ascending during daytime
[04:35] <heathkid> thoughts???
[04:35] <heathkid> how do you keep a balloon below burst altitude?
[04:35] <heathkid> and control that
[04:47] <SpeedEvil> Latex balloons are elastic - up until they're not.
[04:48] <SpeedEvil> When they expand to their full diameter - they raise in pressure by several millibars internally before they burst.
[04:48] <SpeedEvil> that is - the differential pressure across the envelope
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[04:49] <SpeedEvil> In some cases, this differential pressure can compress the gas enough that it is no longer positively bouyant - but neutral - it floats.
[04:49] <SpeedEvil> This only happens if the total excess volume of gas to get to bouyancy is small - the balloon is ascending slowly in other words.
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[05:19] <heathkid> SpeedEvil: you do realize that would take me thinking about what you just said and trying to understand it...
[05:20] <heathkid> let me try to think about that to understand it
[05:21] <heathkid> I'm not getting the "differntial pressure can compress the gas" part...
[05:22] <heathkid> and for a floater... which is better then... H or He???
[05:26] <craag> heathkid: When you stretch latex there is point where it becomes a lot stiffer, jsut before it bursts. If you don't have much free lift, this stiffness can actually compress the gas inside and not expand any more, therefore it won't burst, and will maintain neutral buoyancy.
[05:28] <craag> If you have too much free lift, the stiffness isn't enough to hold it, and it'll be forced to expand more, and burst. (as on a normal flight)
[05:29] <heathkid> can we add a valve to protect from burst?
[05:30] <heathkid> a strain gauge on the latex?
[05:30] <heathkid> then vent?
[05:31] <craag> Yes, so the recent flight from up near New York had a pinhole to release gas when the inside pressure was high enough. That worked initially but vented too much gas on the first day and subsequently most likely descended the following night.
[05:31] <craag> The day/night balance is proving one of the most difficult areas I think.
[05:32] <heathkid> indeed
[05:32] Action: heathkid sleeps and thinks about this...
[05:32] <heathkid> good night (late here)
[05:32] <craag> altitude triggered venting and ballast-dropping alternately is another idea
[05:32] <craag> but v complex
[05:33] <craag> gn!
[05:33] <heathkid> not with multiple balloons and multiple cutdowns
[05:33] <heathkid> say 3 600g's insead of one big one
[05:34] <craag> Then you have to get 3x lift just right rather than just one!
[05:34] <heathkid> how so?
[05:34] <heathkid> if two of the balloons are just simply boyant
[05:34] <craag> I might be misunderstanding your idea..
[05:34] <craag> ah I see
[05:34] <heathkid> one is for lift
[05:35] <craag> Hmm I think someone in the UK tried something similar
[05:35] <craag> a long while ago though, might have been cusf
[05:35] <heathkid> check in with me tomorrow please... I have to sleep... and work tomorrow...
[05:35] <heathkid> 12:35 AM here
[05:36] <craag> Yep, I need to get to work, gn!
[05:36] <heathkid> gn
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[08:34] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: yo
[08:34] <LeoBodnar> morning gents!
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[08:35] <Laurenceb_> hi
[08:35] <LeoBodnar> q re IIR filter - are you getting completely weird results or just slightly crappy results?
[08:36] <Laurenceb_> the data seems to be unstable
[08:37] <Laurenceb_> it could be the saving and loading of the filter state
[08:37] <Laurenceb_> ill try some more investigation later :P
[08:37] <LeoBodnar> I have not realised you are using right shifts for division
[08:38] <Laurenceb_> yeah its fast
[08:38] <LeoBodnar> if you are feeding 12 bit data in and shift right by 7 you lose almost half of the precision
[08:38] <LeoBodnar> all these 7 bits are lost forever
[08:39] <Laurenceb_> but those are lost from the filter state
[08:39] <Laurenceb_> which has 32bits of precision and ~8bits gain
[08:39] <LeoBodnar> also your data seems to be unsigned int so better use lsr than asr - you don't have a sign bit
[08:39] <LeoBodnar> ignore that now!
[08:39] <Laurenceb_> heh
[08:39] <LeoBodnar> intermediate results might be negative
[08:39] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[08:40] <Laurenceb_> the adc data is unsigned, but its only in range 0 to 4095
[08:40] <Laurenceb_> so can i treat it as signed halfword?
[08:40] <LeoBodnar> but when you do Xn - Xn-2 it can be
[08:41] <LeoBodnar> asr will correctly populate sign bit
[08:42] <LeoBodnar> I can't think off the top of my head what max amplitude intermediate results might be but definitely worth shifting incoming data left by 15-16 bits if not more
[08:42] <Laurenceb_> ok, i have room to shift it 12bits
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[08:42] <LeoBodnar> only 12?
[08:43] <Laurenceb_> 12bits data + 12 + 8bits of gain
[08:43] <Laurenceb_> giving 32bits
[08:43] <LeoBodnar> if incoming data is 12 bit the intermediate results are maybe 14-15
[08:44] <Laurenceb_> ok
[08:44] <LeoBodnar> sp you multiply incoming 12 bits by 256?
[08:44] <LeoBodnar> are you?
[08:44] <Laurenceb_> no
[08:44] <Laurenceb_> that gain is from the filter itself
[08:45] <LeoBodnar> what do you mean?
[08:45] <Laurenceb_> its actually 254 times from the octave code, but close enough
[08:45] <Laurenceb_> output looks like http://imagebin.org/282398
[08:45] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/npQpspvg
[08:46] <LeoBodnar> is this response or hystogram?
[08:46] <LeoBodnar> histogram rather
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[08:47] <Laurenceb_> thats the response as input is swept
[08:47] <LeoBodnar> DC level sweep?
[08:47] <Laurenceb_> line 5, its offset by 2048
[08:49] <Laurenceb_> so frequency sweep
[08:49] <LeoBodnar> hold on. What is raw data coming out of your ADC at zero input?
[08:49] <LeoBodnar> as fed into the filter
[08:50] <LeoBodnar> ARM asm one
[08:50] <Laurenceb_> at zero input adc is 2048
[08:51] <LeoBodnar> then your result coming out of it should be 2048 as well just before you divide it by 256 on line 8
[08:52] <LeoBodnar> you divide by 256 and should get 8
[08:52] <Laurenceb_> but the filter gain is ~254 according to the frequency swept simulation
[08:53] <Laurenceb_> also that page i linked agrees with the gain
[08:53] <LeoBodnar> hmm
[08:53] <Laurenceb_> http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fisher/cgi-bin/mkfscript
[08:53] <LeoBodnar> I am a bit concerned that your data is unsigned int rather than signed
[08:54] <LeoBodnar> but it should not really matter
[08:54] <LeoBodnar> it's just shifting zero point by 254
[08:54] <Laurenceb_> yeah its less than 2^15, as only a 12 bits adc
[08:55] <LeoBodnar> then the only problem I can see is rapid loss of precision if you keep intermediate results as 12 bit shifter right
[08:56] <LeoBodnar> so say you have 12 bit coming in and about 8 bits after gain you should be able to shift it left by 10-11 bits
[08:56] <Laurenceb_> yeah ill try that
[08:56] <LeoBodnar> and compensate on the output by asr #10
[08:56] <Laurenceb_> ass immediate shift is "free"
[08:56] <Laurenceb_> *-s
[08:56] <Laurenceb_> lol
[08:56] <LeoBodnar> I love that feature
[08:57] <Laurenceb_> ok, bbl
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[08:57] <LeoBodnar> cu later
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[09:08] <KT5TK> Has anybody an idea how to program a 1.8V Arduino?
[09:10] <KT5TK> Can I use the standard Atmel AVRISP mkII for that?
[09:11] <Darkside> yes you can
[09:11] <KT5TK> Oh, thanks. No level shifters necessary?
[09:12] <fsphil> you should check the programmer isn't providing power through the VCC pin
[09:12] <Darkside> none at all
[09:13] <Darkside> avrispmk22 wont
[09:14] <KT5TK> Gotcha. Will take care of that. I soldered a first prototype of a tracker and after I was done and confirmed the 1.8 V I noticed there was no firmware on the atmega yet...
[09:15] <KT5TK> So maybe a USBtiny clone?
[09:15] <Darkside> argh
[09:15] <Darkside> 3g lag
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[09:29] <kokey> Darkside I thought you used irc over psk31
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[09:30] <Darkside> lol no
[09:30] <Darkside> i've wantd to
[09:30] <Darkside> would be fun
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[09:37] <kokey> it would be putting the channel back into channel
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[10:32] <eroomde> morning
[10:32] <Laurenceb> back
[10:32] <Laurenceb> morning eroomde
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[10:37] <eroomde> morning
[10:38] <Laurenceb> yo dawg we heard you like the morning
[10:38] <eroomde> no
[10:38] <eroomde> actually i don't
[10:38] <eroomde> i was up early making sweet pastry
[10:38] <eroomde> and then doing lots of washing up
[10:38] <nats`> hi boyz ! :)
[10:39] Action: Laurenceb is working out which mercurial repo actually has the latest code..
[10:39] <Laurenceb> funtimes
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[10:53] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: how did you calculate integer IIR coeffs?
[10:54] <Laurenceb> trial and error
[10:54] <Laurenceb> i think i may have spotted the problem
[10:54] <Laurenceb> its prob in my c wrapper function, not the asm
[10:55] <Laurenceb> the memory its accessing looks misaligned with the dma buffer
[10:56] <Laurenceb> do you have octave installed?
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[10:57] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.octave.org/Octave_for_MacOS_X
[10:57] <eroomde> you using osx?
[10:58] <Laurenceb> im not, leobodnar is?
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[10:59] <eroomde> is that like a kind of ipython but used by the ancients?
[11:00] <LeoBodnar> Is this what used to build dl-fldigi?
[11:00] <nats`> eroomde give you respect to scilab :D
[11:00] <Laurenceb> hehe
[11:00] <nats`> your
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[11:01] <LeoBodnar> oh why is the life so hard? I just wanted a few numbers :D
[11:01] <eroomde> to be fair, octave/matlab's language is still the easiest way of doing linear algebra quickly, that i've found
[11:01] <Laurenceb> thats why i use it
[11:01] <nats`> LeoBodnar take scopeiir
[11:01] <Laurenceb> lazyness
[11:01] <nats`> they have demo version
[11:02] <eroomde> julia could be a contender though
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[11:02] <LeoBodnar> I think I will start writing code by doing either exhaustive search or Monte Carlo method on machine code while running it through "yes it does what I want" filter
[11:03] <nats`> genetic algo ? :D
[11:03] <eroomde> what are you trying to do?
[11:04] <LeoBodnar> no just run through all possible combinations of code bytes until the code works
[11:04] <Laurenceb> hah
[11:04] <db_g6gzh> LeoBodnar: the benefit is that you should also get lots of things you never knew you needed
[11:04] <LeoBodnar> indeed!
[11:04] <LeoBodnar> maybe the code can write itself first
[11:05] <db_g6gzh> I proposed random EPROM contents + testing once at work years ago. Nobody could see that benefit.
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[11:05] <nats`> LeoBodnar how many taps do you have ?
[11:06] <db_g6gzh> I think some of the contractors sometimes did the first part anyway.
[11:06] <LeoBodnar> I want high pass filter for 1200Hz with 24dB/oct rolloff eroomde on 44100 digitised input
[11:06] <LeoBodnar> I feel like feeding it into a DAC, 4 RC networks and back into and ADC...
[11:07] <eroomde> nice
[11:17] <Laurenceb> heh
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[11:20] <Ericc_> any other radio module can install on Raspberry pi except NX2B?
[11:21] <Chetic> NTX2?
[11:21] <Chetic> that's what I have
[11:21] <Ericc_> 434Mhz seems illegal in My country.....
[11:21] <Chetic> oh that sucks
[11:21] <Chetic> which country?
[11:21] <Ericc_> Taiwan
[11:22] <Ericc_> Its for military ...
[11:22] <UpuWork> yeah you probably don't want to upset them
[11:22] <UpuWork> 868Mhz ?
[11:22] <Darkside> theres probably an amateur radio allocation there
[11:22] <Ericc_> Any other frequency module?
[11:22] <UpuWork> well find out what you can use first
[11:22] <UpuWork> frequency
[11:23] <Ericc_> http://www.tarc.com.tw/hams/amateurband.htm
[11:24] <Darkside> taiwan is also going to hav the problm of lots of water
[11:24] <UpuWork> are you a licensed amateur ?
[11:24] <Darkside> wow thats a tiny 70cm band
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[11:24] <Darkside> if you ar a licensed amateur th 144.390MHz TX1H modue may work well
[11:24] <Ericc_> No , But I can find people to help me
[11:25] <Darkside> as long as you find someone licnsed, then 144.390MHz may be a better option
[11:25] <Ericc_> Thank you!
[11:25] <mclane> is there a .deb file for dl-fldigi for ubuntu saucy?
[11:25] <Darkside> is that what the new ubuntu is called?
[11:25] <Darkside> seriously?
[11:25] <mclane> yes - 13.10
[11:26] <Ericc_> how to buy TX1H?
[11:26] <Darkside> mclane: wow
[11:26] <Ericc_> I didnt see it on our website
[11:26] <UpuWork> HX1 ?
[11:26] <Darkside> Ericc_: not sure, i bought from a local resellet
[11:26] <Darkside> UpuWork: no
[11:26] <Darkside> TX1H
[11:26] <UpuWork> ok
[11:26] <UpuWork> I don't sell those
[11:27] <Darkside> yeah RFMA had to get thm in for m
[11:27] <Darkside> they dont kp them in stock
[11:28] <Darkside> but it is one of the 'standard; frequencies, as its th US APRS frequency
[11:28] <Darkside> Ericc_: you need to be sure nothing else in the area is using that frequency though
[11:28] <Darkside> before you pick a frequency
[11:29] <Darkside> so i'd go ask some local amatur operators
[11:29] <Darkside> you're also going to have the 'lots of water' problem
[11:31] <UpuWork> heh
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[12:34] <Laurenceb> epic lol
[12:34] <Laurenceb> http://akinfuzyon.com/includes/domit/1.php
[12:35] <Laurenceb> "Bandwidth Limit Exceeded"
[12:35] <Laurenceb> wonder whyt hat could be
[12:35] <Laurenceb> bt router rooting info :P
[12:36] <chrisstubbs> homehub?
[12:36] <Laurenceb> yeah, they run linux
[12:36] <Laurenceb> you need to root them to bypass the block thing
[12:37] <chrisstubbs> interesting, what block?
[12:37] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/06/big_4_isps_will_all_embrace_network_level_filtering_to_protect_children/
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[12:41] <chrisstubbs> Haha
[12:41] <Laurenceb> prob "root, 1234"
[12:41] <Laurenceb> then swap it to opendns
[12:43] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: had a quick bash during coffeebreak
[12:43] <eroomde> http://nbviewer.ipython.org/gist/anonymous/8004347
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[13:08] <fsphil> Laurenceb: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2013/121613-report-accuses-bt-of-supplying-276975.html
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[13:38] <LeoBodnar> cool! Thank you Ed
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> I have resorted to having several RC models in line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-pass_filter#Algorithmic_implementation
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[13:40] <LeoBodnar> but I am not sure how stable it will be when implemented in fixed decimal point
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[13:42] <mattbrejza> thats just a standard IIR filter?
[13:42] <mattbrejza> providing poles in unit circle etc?
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[13:45] <eroomde> you can probably get better performance for a given number of taps with a different topology, tis all
[13:46] <eroomde> i wonder if there is some dixed-point code in scipy
[13:47] <adamgreig> could just use np.int types and scale
[13:50] <eroomde> yus
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[13:58] <LeoBodnar> limited precision math is interesting area
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[14:19] Action: SpeedEvil tries not to think of bit-banging a 3kW PSU.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Even if the processor in theory could easily handle per-cycle current and everything limiting.
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[14:27] <eroomde> what exactly does it mean to bit-bang a psu?
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> To control programatically the switching transistors at 50-200khz.
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> On a cycle by cycle basis, without any analog feedback loops doing the complex bits.
[14:30] <LeoBodnar> oh dear
[14:31] <LeoBodnar> software controlled fuse
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> The aforementioned silly ARM chip has put this thought in my mind.
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> Probably more sane to do that for v3 :)
[14:33] <mattbrejza> whats wrong with a really bit transformer? :P
[14:34] <mattbrejza> eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXEPy6Za6cI
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[14:37] <eroomde> really big transformers are nice until you have to move the psu around
[14:37] <eroomde> as evidenced with my lovely but heavy agilkents
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[14:41] <SpeedEvil> The eventual intent is to make a nice flexible power supply/welder - if it works, it will be awesome, and quite saleable.
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> USB programmable +-50V 3A PSUs aren't cheap - never mind 300A
[14:43] <iqon_> I have couple 48v 25A
[14:44] Nick change: iqon_ -> acidtechh
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> yeah - but probably not programmable.
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> I do now have a HP6632B - which is awesome
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> 5A 20V
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[15:08] <LeoBodnar> agree SpeedEvil
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[15:36] <Ericc_> Can NTX2B change to other frequency ?
[15:37] <fsphil> nope
[15:37] <chrisstubbs> Ericc_, I think it has to be programmed when you buy it
[15:37] <fsphil> it's set at the factory
[15:37] <chrisstubbs> Can anthony program them yet?
[15:38] <fsphil> havn't heard, don't believe so
[15:38] <Ericc_> thanks!
[15:39] <Ericc_> What are NRX2 and LMR2 receiver?
[15:41] <Ericc_> I saw it in NRX2s datasheet
[15:41] <Ericc_> is it necessary to receive the signal?
[15:41] <chrisstubbs> We usually use a 70cms HAM radio or SDR dongle
[15:42] <chrisstubbs> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
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[15:44] <Ericc_> SDR dongle is a priceless way to track it ?
[15:45] <gonzo__> You mean cheap?
[15:45] <Ericc_> yes
[15:45] <chrisstubbs> the £20 ones are good for testing (and some people do track with them using a decent antenna)
[15:45] <gonzo__> and a preamp (habamp)
[15:46] <Ericc_> should it be use in outdoors?
[15:46] <gonzo__> the funcube pro+ s better, but more expensive
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[15:47] <gonzo__> you have to use an outdoor antenna. The preamp should be at the antenna, but that is not always possible
[15:47] <Ericc_> you mean the software is more expensive?
[15:48] <chrisstubbs> the funcube is a much more sensitive SDR
[15:48] <chrisstubbs> the cheap RTL ones can be a bit deaf
[15:48] <gonzo__> the funcube Pro+ is one of the sdr dongles you can get. it is about £150. But it has preamos and filters built in. And ihas better frequency stability
[15:49] <gonzo__> most of the sdr software people use is free
[15:51] <Ericc_> so i can fust use this and antenna to receive the data
[15:51] <Ericc_> just
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[16:00] <nats`> chrisstubbs the problem with the FCP+ is at this price you can have decent used Yaesu
[16:00] <chrisstubbs> quite possibly
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[16:01] <chrisstubbs> I have never used a SDR on the chase, but i can imagine a normal radio is a lot more convinient
[16:01] <Reb-SM3ULC> Ericc_: i've tracked Leos's balloon about 300 km away with, dipol+rtldongle
[16:02] <Reb-SM3ULC> Ericc_: height about 5km if i remember
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[16:47] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: i got that filter working thanks
[16:47] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/Vj1JMSKv
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[16:53] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: what did you do in the end to fix it?
[16:53] <Laurenceb> wrapped code, both asm and c wrapped was buggy
[16:53] <Laurenceb> core code works ok
[16:54] <LeoBodnar> cool, even without extra left shifts?
[16:55] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:55] <Laurenceb> but unfortunatly it doesnt help much
[16:55] <Laurenceb> its for a photodiode amplifier
[16:55] <Laurenceb> turns out the 50hz light flicker modulates in regardless due to slight sensor nonlinearity
[16:56] <Laurenceb> the filter only helps slightly
[16:56] <LeoBodnar> but it's good to have it working for next time you need it
[16:57] <Laurenceb> heh yeah
[16:57] <LeoBodnar> branching is expensive
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[17:00] <LeoBodnar> Does M4 not have some predictive whizbang doodah ?
[17:00] <Laurenceb> it does
[17:00] <Laurenceb> im using M3
[17:00] <LeoBodnar> Ah
[17:00] <LeoBodnar> I forgot
[17:01] <nats`> Laurenceb you control when you tx ?
[17:01] <nats`> because you could do a first measure with no txing
[17:01] <nats`> and do a measure just after
[17:01] <Laurenceb> nats': tx what?
[17:01] <nats`> I guess you photodiode catch a signal
[17:01] <Laurenceb> oh
[17:01] <nats`> I was wondering if you control this signal
[17:01] <Laurenceb> yeah the baud rate is 64hz
[17:01] <Laurenceb> so that wont work
[17:02] <nats`> ohh it's really near the 50Hz
[17:02] <nats`> yep
[17:02] <Laurenceb> yeah :-/
[17:02] <nats`> meant to be used indoor ?
[17:02] <Laurenceb> its a spectrometer
[17:02] <nats`> because you'll have the flicker of the fancy low power lighting like those mercury lamp
[17:02] <Laurenceb> so yeah its indoor
[17:03] <Laurenceb> i have has issues with CFL
[17:03] <Laurenceb> they have higher frequency components
[17:03] <LeoBodnar> CFL are vile
[17:03] <nats`> yep I lost much time due to CFL lighting
[17:03] <Laurenceb> but it tends to die off due to the slow phosphor
[17:03] <nats`> but on other project
[17:03] <nats`> like PLC :p
[17:03] <Laurenceb> so i modulate at 11kHz
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[17:03] <nats`> oky
[17:03] <Laurenceb> which is above CFL
[17:04] <Laurenceb> the filter only seems to help with EMI
[17:04] <Laurenceb> but the 50hz buzz is the main problem i have atm
[17:04] <nats`> good luck with that I stopped all my test on VLF receiver because of that
[17:05] <LeoBodnar> The only CFL I can tolerate is Hopper's
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[17:51] <Willdude123_> Hello
[17:51] <Willdude123_> VPS changing node :( been ages since I used webchat
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[18:46] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:48] <arko> ahoy
[18:51] <FASTed> Hi Arko does Amanda have your email address?
[18:51] <arko> i believe so yes
[18:52] <FASTed> Ok I will check with her to make sure
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[18:53] <FASTed> We liked leos idea of having a "contest" with different trackers
[18:55] <arko> hahaha
[18:55] <arko> so im wondering, what are you guys doing different this time to prevent burst at sunrise?
[18:56] <FASTed> We are not sure we actually had a burst
[18:56] <FASTed> the package came back to earth with no string on the payload
[18:56] <FASTed> It is possible that the payload simply became disconnected
[18:57] <FASTed> ugh
[18:57] <FASTed> however
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[18:57] <FASTed> we used 138g of free lift and achieved night time neutral buoyancy at 83,000 ft
[18:58] <FASTed> we can go down to 75g or so that should buy us about 5,000-6,000 feet lower float
[18:58] <FASTed> the balloon was going neutral at the time whatever happened happened
[18:59] <FASTed> We are hoping that will be enough
[18:59] <FASTed> but we really dont have a great solution, alot depends on luck
[18:59] <arko> well the balloon didnt look like it was in equilibrium
[18:59] <arko> it seems that after sunrise, it was just about to level off again
[19:00] <FASTed> We ran a plot and it appeared to be leveling but I agree it is hard to say
[19:00] <arko> but then there was a point of inflection followed by a greater ascent rate
[19:00] <arko> hmmm
[19:00] <arko> i see
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[19:01] <FASTed> Basically we are at the very edge of what the latex can do
[19:01] <arko> so you had no balloon stub?
[19:01] <arko> yeah
[19:01] <FASTed> no stub no string attached to payload
[19:01] <arko> hmmm
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[19:02] <arko> sounds like you're knot having a good time there
[19:02] Action: arko slaps himself
[19:03] <FASTed> definately
[19:03] <jcoxon> oh arko
[19:03] <FASTed> just got a call, need to break for a few minutes
[19:03] <arko> it was terrible, i'll admit
[19:03] <arko> cool
[19:03] <arko> i need to finish this stupid database setup
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[19:08] <FASTed> ha ha just saw your knot reference
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[19:25] <LeoBodnar> evening
[19:25] <bertrik> Evening
[19:25] <x-f> evening
[19:26] <arko> evening
[19:26] <FASTed> evening
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> EvenIng
[19:27] <Willdude123_> Evening
[19:28] <Willdude123_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1kftCx5-tA
[19:28] <MLow> afternoon
[19:28] <arko> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rELYuM7QlU
[19:28] <arko> its still morning here
[19:28] <arko> for another 32 minutes
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[19:32] <cm13g09> Evening all
[19:35] <Willdude123_> Evening
[19:36] <mfa298> That Steven Fry clip reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vju2pyqXBLg
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[19:41] Action: jcoxon is making progress with this teensy
[19:42] <jcoxon> now have got ntx2 working with crc16
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[19:52] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> hello
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[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> ah well
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> what is more power efficient on ARM Cortex - RAM or flash code execution?
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> neon tube capacitor failed last night
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[19:57] <qyx_> LeoBodnar: datasheets usually have tables for that
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[19:59] <qyx_> for example stm32f103, code & data from flash, 72MHz, peripherals disabled 32.8mA
[20:00] <qyx_> from ram, 72MHz, periphreals disabled, 29mA
[20:00] <qyx_> so it's not so huge difference
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[20:06] <LeoBodnar> yeah, OK thanks
[20:07] <eroomde> another evening of cooking
[20:08] <eroomde> and another break as i've got the boeff bourg in the oven for 3 hours
[20:08] <eroomde> i'm gonna continue the gastronomic theme by ordering a large dominos pizza for myself
[20:08] <eroomde> and then make a pear and roquefort quiche for the veggies
[20:09] <jcoxon> eroomde, are you preparing for a feast?
[20:09] <eroomde> yes
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[20:09] <eroomde> 16 people at work
[20:09] <eroomde> 14 carnivores, 2 veggies
[20:09] <Laurenceb_> sup folks
[20:09] <eroomde> office dinner tomorrow, in the workshop again
[20:10] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/873ymarmzewrhaq/2013-12-17%2019.46.03.jpg
[20:10] <eroomde> beef having been browned, the veggies being browned
[20:10] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: so today i discovered why if you are developing a project the weakest link is always the most poor developer
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[20:10] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/rkrs4yqbgzjyv07/2013-12-17%2020.03.34.jpg
[20:10] <eroomde> everything in the pot ready to spend 3-4 hours in a low oven to do its thing
[20:10] <Laurenceb_> so with IIR the cpu use was hitting 90%
[20:11] <jcoxon> eroomde, looks great
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> but i wondered why the reverse engineered NI-VISA interface thread was hitting 25% when it wasnt connected
[20:11] <nats`> pooling ?
[20:11] <eroomde> i've borrowed my friend's really big le creuset
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> answer - while 1 busy waits everywhere O-O
[20:11] <eroomde> i have major middle-class lust
[20:11] <nats`> oO
[20:12] <jcoxon> eroomde, haha, indeed, i think you might get upset at helens cooking equipment then
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> and ever arduino style usart debugging with busy wait
[20:12] <LeoBodnar> oh dear
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> i can afford 4th order or something with that fixed :D
[20:13] <LeoBodnar> you had to inject NI code?
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[20:13] <Laurenceb_> its from some uni guy
[20:13] <LeoBodnar> Silicon is now contaminated for good
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[20:13] <Laurenceb_> reverse engineered NI-VISA
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[20:14] <LeoBodnar> you need preemptive multitasking OS
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> like Linux or better Windows
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> it runs chibios
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> then you can run calculator on it
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> but the thread priorities meant that lower priority stuff than NI-VISA (like save to sd card and stuff) got locked out first
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> Okeeey and this it read a photodiode output?
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[20:16] <LeoBodnar> *is to
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> sigh
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> lol
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> we have no chance
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> I don't want to know what runs on modern jet navigation computers
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> its for multi wavelength diffuse reflectance spectroscopy with high ambient light
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> not so simple to do
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[20:18] <LeoBodnar> You were on the right direction (Thumb asm)
[20:18] <LeoBodnar> *path
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> we need 16bit data at 7 wavelengths at ~64sps using a few mW for LED drive
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> with target ~10cm away
[20:18] <LeoBodnar> gosh I'd rather dictate than type
[20:19] <eroomde> still don't have internet, have to go to the top room of the house for sufficient mobile broadband to order a pizza
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[20:19] <LeoBodnar> It's like PIC16C84 job
[20:19] <eroomde> #firstworldproblems etc
[20:19] <LeoBodnar> lol not really
[20:20] <LeoBodnar> but OS multitasking on a micro is often a solution looking for a problem
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[20:21] <Japers> hey folks, i'm looking for some help with a weather balloon project in Scotland. i work for a charity called Scottish Huntington's Association and we have an idea for raising awareness, but need some technical help
[20:21] <Willdude123_> eroomde: any particular reason or just a crap ISP?
[20:21] <eroomde> Willdude123_: i'm either buying this house or buying a different house
[20:21] <LeoBodnar> few interrupts and a tight loop solve 95% of all jobs
[20:21] <eroomde> 1 year contract on broadband can wait until after that decision
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> Willdude wants to get in b4 pronz filter
[20:22] <bertrik> LeoBodnar: like making an interrupt so slow, that you start to think about nested interrupts ? :D
[20:22] <Willdude123_> Laurenceb_: heh
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> hence NVIC on arm cortex :D
[20:22] <Willdude123_> I have ways of getting around that.
[20:23] <LeoBodnar> nested interrupts are easy
[20:23] <LeoBodnar> unless you use C
[20:23] <Willdude123_> A lot of online advice stuff about homosexual relationships seems to be blocked under pornography, despite have equally descriptive content as their heterosexual counterparts. So I get around it, obviously not due to actual pron :?
[20:24] <LeoBodnar> By the time you figured out what resources are saved and what get trashed under C hood you could have written it in assembly
[20:24] <nats`> LeoBodnar you're pretty unfair :p
[20:25] <nats`> you jnow that C compiler evolved a lot ? :D
[20:25] <LeoBodnar> I am a raging fanatic
[20:27] <LeoBodnar> lol not really :D
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[20:59] <KF5WYX> hi highaltitude
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> hello.
[21:00] <KF5WYX> :-)
[21:00] <KF5WYX> SpeedEvil, you're quite experienced with eagle right?
[21:00] <Willdude123_> Is anyone here a QRZ member?
[21:00] <Willdude123_> QRZ.com
[21:00] <Willdude123_> I need to be added by another user to the database
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[21:00] <SpeedEvil> KF5WYX: I never touched it. I certainly did not skin it and have it with chips.
[21:01] <KF5WYX> I detect a grin
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> I just used 'PCB' - I haven't actually used eagle
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> I think PCB has changed name.
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> I need to do some boards soon for my silly projects.
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> PC power supply, and solar AMPPT charger
[21:02] <KF5WYX> I'd guess Eagle PCB == PCB from cadsoft
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> http://pcb.sourceforge.net/
[21:04] <KF5WYX> Ahh, think these are very different products.
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[21:06] <Willdude123_> So is anyone here a QRZ.com member?
[21:06] <Willdude123_> Just want to be added to the database
[21:07] <mfa298> Willdude123_: I think you just create an account in there
[21:07] <Willdude123_> You need to have somebody add you to the database
[21:07] <Willdude123_> Who is already on there
[21:07] <Willdude123_> http://www.qrz.com/page/addcall.html
[21:07] <KF5WYX> I guess the only way I'm going to know if my board design is right, is to try cutting it and see what comes out.
[21:07] <Willdude123_> I sort of need it before midnight as there's sweepstakes that close then
[21:09] <Upu> KF5WYX post it we'll be happy to critique i
[21:09] <Upu> t
[21:09] <Willdude123_> I don't think the forum members would reply in that time
[21:10] <KF5WYX> Hi Upu - well it's an incomplete design. I just have a question about the board designer which I posted in the eagle channel. I'm isolation routing on single sided copper clad, but the board designer doesn't seem to leave much copper around the holes. I'm curious if the component pads will be left in the copper.
[21:10] <Upu> I'll need to see it
[21:10] <Willdude123_> But IDK. I guess I have almost no chance of winning anyhow
[21:10] <Upu> you can generate Gerbers and view in GerbV
[21:10] <Upu> or export it to Sketchup
[21:11] <KF5WYX> Thanks - I'll check out Gerbv - and I'd be happy to send what I have for you to see too. It's just basic wiring for an AtMega328 right now
[21:12] <Upu> sure link it via Dropbox
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[21:13] <Willdude123_> Sorry, I'm nagging now :)
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[21:21] <mikestir> KF5WYX: I've used EAGLE for designing boards for isolation routing (ages ago though). IIRC we just used the restring function to globally beef up the pads a bit
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[21:21] <mikestir> we got some pretty fine pitch stuff out, although the setup of the router was critical
[21:21] <KF5WYX> restring - thanks mikesir, I'll look that up. Just repairing some damage I did to my design right now (noobing software hurts)
[21:22] <mikestir> it's in the DRC window
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[21:24] <DL7AD> good evening
[21:25] <Upu> Latest Eagle toy : http://i.imgur.com/YcQuNVr.jpg :)
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> Anthony, AWESOME!
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[21:29] <arko> such design, much improvement
[21:30] <Upu> lol
[21:30] <Upu> ask me how many of those three work
[21:30] <arko> :P
[21:30] <Upu> 1
[21:30] <Upu> 1 :)
[21:30] <Upu> noticed a solder bridge I'd missed on another so that should be ok
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[21:30] <Upu> 3rd one the AVR isn't playing
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[21:33] <Willdude123_> heh nobody wants to add me to QRZ.com
[21:33] <Willdude123_> It will decrease their chance of winning :)
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[21:35] <FASTed> Hi Upu
[21:35] <Upu> hi FASTed
[21:35] <FASTed> My name is Edward
[21:35] <Upu> My name is Anthony
[21:35] <FASTed> we launched N9VAR-11 last weekend
[21:35] <Upu> Yes I kno
[21:36] <Upu> I watched it with interest
[21:36] <Upu> shame they don't seem able to survive sunrise these day
[21:36] <Upu> s
[21:36] <Upu> sorry typing is crap tonight
[21:36] <FASTed> Id like to talk to you about your trackers
[21:36] <Upu> shoot :)
[21:36] <Willdude123_> Upu I thought you were a Tony
[21:36] <Willdude123_> Which do you prefer?
[21:37] <FASTed> Leo and arko have expressed some interest in flying their trackers on future launches of ours
[21:37] <FASTed> are you interested?
[21:37] <nats`> Upu \o/
[21:37] <Upu> "Glorious leader" to you Will
[21:37] <Upu> Always interested FASTed yes
[21:37] <FASTed> A big part of what we do is to try to involve as many people in our projects as possible
[21:38] <eroomde> spreads the blame
[21:38] <eroomde> good idea
[21:38] <FASTed> is there a email where we can contact you?
[21:38] <Willdude123_> Ok Glorious Leader
[21:39] <FASTed> or some other way that you would prefer
[21:39] <eroomde> there is a command in this channel that works well
[21:39] <arko> eroomde: lol
[21:39] <eroomde> delete the preceeding space
[21:39] <arko> !awaken
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[21:40] <arko> !awaken cthulu
[21:40] <arko> lame
[21:40] <eroomde> and then it fails to send you an email
[21:40] <Upu> however
[21:40] <Upu> never mind
[21:41] <Willdude123_> Upu you may want to put Glorious Leader on your ping list
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[21:41] <Willdude123_> Sorry
[21:41] <Willdude123_> Glorious Leader you may want to put Glorious Leader on your ping list
[21:41] <Upu> have you not got home work to do or something Will ?
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[21:42] <FASTed> Upu how should I contact you?
[21:43] <Upu> I pretty much live on here if you say my name either Upu or UpuWork it makes my clients blink
[21:43] <FASTed> OK so its ok to talk here?
[21:43] <daveake_> My clients blink when they see the bill
[21:43] <arko> lol
[21:44] <Upu> of course
[21:44] <FASTed> would you like to send us one of your trackers so we can fly it?
[21:44] <arko> my clients dont even know i exist
[21:44] <Upu> lol daveake
[21:44] <Upu> yes of course when I have one working
[21:44] <eroomde> if it's not ok to talk about flying high altitude balloon payloads on a channel about flying high altitude balloon payloads then my world is turned upset down and i no longer know what to believe
[21:44] <arko> hah
[21:45] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
[21:45] <LeoBodnar> kids
[21:45] <FASTed> sorry im new to this chat thing
[21:45] <Upu> :)
[21:45] <FASTed> dont want to say things I shouldnt
[21:45] <Upu> its ok
[21:45] <Upu> just keep it PG and everything should be fine
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[21:46] <FASTed> I dont live on the board so do you want to email us when one is ready?
[21:46] <Upu> sure I'll tweet you
[21:46] <Upu> I'm following you
[21:46] <daveake> cuddykid any update on CSI HAB ?
[21:46] <FASTed> that goes for arko and Leo also
[21:46] <arko> coolio
[21:46] <FASTed> OK cool
[21:46] <cuddykid> not heard anything from the police unfortunately - might chase them tomorrow daveake
[21:46] <arko> you're in pheonix right?
[21:47] <FASTed> we are in Irvine CA
[21:47] <LeoBodnar> do you want to make a payload train or fly separate missions FASTed ?
[21:47] <cuddykid> last I heard was that they have enough info to pursue it
[21:47] <arko> oh no way!
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> cuddykid: yeah. They're doing house to house searches right now.
[21:47] <FASTed> whatever you guys would like to do
[21:47] <arko> thats like 2 hour drive on the 5 during rush hour
[21:47] <FASTed> we were thinking seprate missions
[21:47] <arko> dude im in pasadena
[21:47] <arko> hmmm
[21:47] <FASTed> but it could all be one if that is what you guys would like to do
[21:47] <cuddykid> SpeedEvil: ha
[21:47] <FASTed> I used to live in San Gabriel
[21:47] <arko> you should swing by our hackerspace in downtown la, i got all my hab stuff there
[21:47] <LeoBodnar> I'd have two trackers until you figured out they work they way you want them to (= at all)
[21:48] <arko> we have a "meeting" tonight
[21:48] <FASTed> I worked as a subcontactor for JPL for 4 years
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[21:48] <arko> haha, that's what im doing
[21:48] <eroomde> wait for it...
[21:48] <arko> small world
[21:48] <arko> eroomde: lol
[21:48] <LeoBodnar> I had friends at JPL
[21:48] <Upu> me too
[21:48] Action: Upu points at arko
[21:48] <arko> s/ad/ave/
[21:48] <arko> aw now regex bot
[21:48] <FASTed> My dad worked there for 36 years
[21:48] <LeoBodnar> until after Shuttle closedown
[21:48] <FASTed> and my mom for 17
[21:48] <eroomde> LA is just enormous
[21:49] <arko> it really is, yet small sometimes
[21:49] <arko> you run into people all the time
[21:49] <arko> super weird
[21:49] <eroomde> i mean the suburbia
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[21:49] <arko> FASTed: if you are free tonight, i'll be at the hackerspace in downtown LA after 8pm
[21:49] <eroomde> i know its in thoery different cities/towns
[21:49] <Willdude123_> Glorious Leader I have no homework but from my English knowledge I can infer although not explicitly mentioned that you want me to bugger off.
[21:49] <eroomde> but they're all just connected
[21:49] <arko> http://032.la/
[21:49] <daveake> There aren't many cities where you have a choice of 6 interstates to get across town
[21:49] <arko> free parking
[21:49] <eroomde> it's like the future
[21:50] <FASTed> very cool I'll talk to Amanda
[21:50] <FASTed> Amanda = N9VAR
[21:50] <eroomde> you can see why bladerunner was set there
[21:50] <arko> we got loads of tools if you need any
[21:50] <arko> i'll bring my tracker tonight too
[21:51] <FASTed> Im texting her now tosee if we are available
[21:52] <arko> cool cool
[21:52] <FASTed> arko, Leo, Ubu do you have a preference all on one flight or three separate flights?
[21:52] <eroomde> looking at the map, i drove through bel air without realising
[21:52] <arko> just let it fly :)
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[21:52] <arko> eroomde: its not that interesting there
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> ALDI germany has these robotic vacuum cleaners :)
[21:52] <eroomde> no but fresh prince
[21:52] <arko> hahaha
[21:53] <arko> i was just about to make a joke about fresh prince
[21:53] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: you're not allowed to just do that
[21:53] <arko> something something cab yo home smell ya later
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[21:53] <arko> eroomde: you guys have a cool dinner?
[21:54] <eroomde> imagine if a table of people were in a restaurant and talking about visiting mexico this summer
[21:54] <eroomde> and you walk up to them and say
[21:54] <eroomde> 'btw, i like trousers!'
[21:54] <eroomde> that
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> ah
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[21:54] <arko> lol
[21:55] <eroomde> it's ok really, you're forgiven if you steal me a robotic vacuum cleaner for my kitchen
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[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> xD!
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> well I wanted to say that as people talked about JPL above
[21:56] <Upu> up to you FASTed
[21:56] <Upu> I would do some tests as I don't think the balloons can do it any more
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[21:57] <Upu> you might need something other than latex
[21:57] <eroomde> or latex + valve + ballast
[21:57] <Upu> yeah or we are back to pin holes and vents
[21:58] <FASTed> We know latex has its limits but that is part of the fun.
[21:58] <LeoBodnar> FASTed: I'd use two trackers on on first few flights to make sure they work
[21:58] <eroomde> zero pressure balloons will take over one day
[21:58] <LeoBodnar> I love SP
[21:59] <LeoBodnar> or sky anchor
[21:59] <DL7AD> good evening @all
[21:59] <FASTed> Plus we have a bunch of them
[21:59] <eroomde> aye but i cant think of a non-woo way to make them
[21:59] <LeoBodnar> persistence
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[22:00] <KF5WYX> Upu - anyone - http://chapmanworld.com/flightcomputer.zip I know it's a trivial and incomplete board, not really looking for a critique, just looking for an opinion on the amount of copper left on the pads for soldering through-hole. (single sided board)
[22:01] <LeoBodnar> Upu: I had a few of these TCXOs drift very badly, not sure if my IR reflow profile is too harsh or TCXOs are rubbish
[22:01] <LeoBodnar> but they are still technically within 0.5ppm
[22:01] <Upu> not noticed them moving yet
[22:01] <eroomde> KF5WYX: it'll be fine
[22:01] <FASTed> OK so maybe we should fly all three on one balloon and see whos work best...
[22:02] <Upu> I'm reflowing at quite a cool temp with leaded solder
[22:02] <Upu> will look shortly KF5WYX
[22:02] <LeoBodnar> no they are not! one drifted off 3kHz on 434
[22:02] <KF5WYX> in your own time of course Upu, thanks
[22:02] <eroomde> a tip for getting drill-holes aligned on diy boards is to pre-tin the track with solder. that makes a little crater in the middle where you want the drill-hole to be, which can guide the drill bit and help alignment
[22:03] <Upu> thats quite a bit LeoBodnar
[22:03] <LeoBodnar> It's an odd bad one now and then
[22:03] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: the few on my gps board are good to 0.1ppm, though the temp is fairly stable in that environment
[22:03] <LeoBodnar> I had at least three so far
[22:04] <LeoBodnar> Yeah generally they are very good but from time to time you get a strange ugly one
[22:04] <LeoBodnar> not sure if it is worth kicking up a stink with the supplier
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> can't you test before flight?
[22:05] <LeoBodnar> 3 out of 40 or so
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[22:05] <Laurenceb_> tbh i'd concentrate on floating higher
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> you have everything else down to a fine art
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> you need a blood pressure cuff powered test rig :D
[22:06] <LeoBodnar> I need to heat seal a big ballon. It's quite a challange on your own
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[22:07] <Laurenceb_> yeah
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[22:08] <LeoBodnar> I have not decided how many gores to use for spherical or almost-pumpkin shape
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> we were trying to do heat sealing for a work project
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> gave up, its too hard
[22:08] <morteh> Laurence of arabia
[22:08] <Upu> random
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[22:09] <LeoBodnar> dorman
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> lolwut
[22:09] <Upu> you need to speak to Dan Bowen :)
[22:10] <eroomde> i think it was 8 gores for a 2m super pressure
[22:10] <eroomde> was about optimal
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[22:10] <eroomde> likewise spherical for that size
[22:10] <eroomde> this is all from that pellegrino paper
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> eeek
[22:11] <eroomde> i dont think dan is doing super-pressure
[22:11] <eroomde> well, he is actually i suppose
[22:11] <eroomde> it's using a ballonet
[22:12] <eroomde> which is quite sensible, i think. we had one in the airship so it could be trimmed to have the correct bouyancy at whatever altitude in the alps we were
[22:12] <LeoBodnar> Is Dan still flying?
[22:12] <eroomde> he's working on project loon
[22:12] <eroomde> for the goog
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[22:13] <Laurenceb_> hah nice
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> well.. if they are serious
[22:13] <eroomde> who knows
[22:14] <eroomde> when you have that much money you can do a lot without being serious
[22:14] <LeoBodnar> It's mostly a publicity stunt I suppose
[22:14] <eroomde> if they could get enought of these flying to test out their wind/bouyancy algorithm then that would be a nice result
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[22:15] <eroomde> they're hoping to optimise for equispacing, i guess, by adjusting altitude according to the wind/altitude profile
[22:15] <eroomde> an interesting algorithmic problem
[22:15] <LeoBodnar> As well as buying Boston Dynamics. Wtf was that for? They are military through and through.
[22:15] <eroomde> might just be because DARPA has money to throw at legged robots
[22:16] <eroomde> suspect they just want the talent
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[22:16] <arko> their youtube channel has been neat
[22:16] <arko> https://www.youtube.com/user/ProjectLoon?feature=watch
[22:17] <wd8mnv> google is building delivery unicorns to compete with amazon's drones
[22:18] <eroomde> yeah the balonet pump in that channel was nice
[22:18] <arko> yeah, they mention dan for a split second
[22:18] <FASTed> I was thinking about a heat pipe to cool the gas instead of a vent or ballast
[22:19] <eroomde> heat exhange with low pressure He might be tough though
[22:19] <FASTed> yes very tough
[22:20] <FASTed> but that way you have a closed system and could be up for long durations
[22:20] <Laurenceb_> FASTed: thermal stuff takes tons of energy
[22:20] <eroomde> i have a bit of familiarity with high performance/mass heat exchangers, and it's still basically a surface area problem
[22:20] <Laurenceb_> passive infrared techniques are interesting
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[22:20] <Laurenceb_> actually, i just had an idea
[22:20] <Laurenceb_> maybe passive infrared heating could help avoid icing
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> so like a "semi MIR" balloon
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> prob pointless
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> but useful for battery heating
[22:23] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: fatty food safe cling film is LDPE based, so should make a good window material
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[22:28] Action: SpeedEvil looks at his roll of polythene.
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> Cloudtops are depressingly cool
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[22:38] <MLow-werk> yo
[22:42] <LeoBodnar> My current theory is latex burst because of overheating
[22:42] <LeoBodnar> +s
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> That seems unlikely.
[22:42] <LeoBodnar> during ascent convection cooling prevents that
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> The surrounding air is -40C or so
[22:42] <LeoBodnar> in floating stage convection stops
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> No, it doesn't.
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Airflow due to ascent stops, yes
[22:43] <arko> convection stops playing an important role after 18000m
[22:43] <LeoBodnar> my payload temperature was 0C when floating
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> oops - yeah - that
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Conduction is unaffected largely though
[22:43] <LeoBodnar> after ballon burst it went to -45C within 30 seconds
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Untill you get to .1Pa or so for balloon sized objects
[22:44] <arko> LeoBodnar: perhaps a reflective blanket around the balloon...
[22:44] <arko> hmmm
[22:44] <LeoBodnar> THis is my theory anyway and it explains why balloons burst in the morning after ascent just after levelling off
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> replace 'overheating' with 'getting modestly warm' - and I have no problem.
[22:45] <LeoBodnar> at altitudes 10km below "normal" bursting ones
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> I can easily believe that latex at 0C will have a much lower burst pressure than at -40C
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[22:46] <LeoBodnar> rubber can take in only that much of energy - some of it as heat and some as stress/strain
[22:46] <LeoBodnar> increased temperature tips it over the limit and it ruptures
[22:46] <LeoBodnar> rubber is amazing heat/potential energy convertor
[22:47] <LeoBodnar> I think it is about 80% efficient
[22:47] <LeoBodnar> somebody should make a freezer based on rubber bands
[22:47] <MLow-werk> rubber cpu cooler
[22:48] <MLow-werk> added benifit of a nice smelling room
[22:48] <bertrik> LeoBodnar: how would that work? it cools when it stretched back?
[22:48] <arko> LeoBodnar: hmmm
[22:48] <arko> perhaps i can throw some material in my chamber
[22:49] <arko> stress it and see if i can snap it at the burst altitude observed by just applying IR
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[22:49] <SpeedEvil> arko: Does this chamber do vacuum too - and do you have a guage?
[22:50] <arko> yes
[22:50] <MLow-werk> stretch in cooler slowly as you drop temp, then apply a laser to bring surface temp up?
[22:50] <MLow-werk> awesome
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> in b4 hackaday comments
[22:50] <arko> i will need a gauge setup inside
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> "omg its too dangerous"
[22:50] <arko> hackaday can go f itself
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> haha
[22:50] <arko> err the comments
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> trollments
[22:50] <arko> i did the math, this is fine
[22:50] Action: SpeedEvil needs to calibrate a thermocouple guage.
[22:51] <Laurenceb_> http://hackaday.com/2013/11/16/nearspace-environmental-chamber/
[22:51] <cm13g09> these are fun little bits of kit: http://docs.microwave-solutions.com/createPdf.php?id=MDU1720
[22:51] <arko> this is in no way calibrated
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> arko: ah
[22:52] <arko> you an do basic testing really
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> I've idly been wondering about selling refrigeration kit.
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> Some of the guages are murderously expensive.
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> And a basic thermocouple guage should be good enough for many jobs, and quite cheap.
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtNLctyoxU8
[22:53] <LeoBodnar> rubber can cool below zero when snaps back
[22:53] <LeoBodnar> pretty much like expanding gas
[22:53] <LeoBodnar> however rubber can be approximated as non-comressible liquid is 1st approximation
[22:54] <LeoBodnar> *in
[22:54] <Laurenceb_> interesting, i didnt know that
[22:54] <LeoBodnar> amazing stuff
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb_, nice find, thanks
[22:54] <LeoBodnar> and it grows on trees
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> I was actually contemplating about how to make a test chamber like that
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> pressure, temperature, humidity control
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> artificial sun maybe also
[22:55] <Laurenceb_> Lunar_Lander: thats made by arko :P
[22:55] <Lunar_Lander> cool :)
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> A cheap refrigeration vacuum pump will set you back 60 quid or so, delivered.
[22:55] <LeoBodnar> I have been talking to a guy testing rubber motor for competition models
[22:56] <LeoBodnar> he said as soon as they increased testing speed the motors started to break
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> heh competition rubber band planes
[22:56] <LeoBodnar> testing is tightly controlled stress / strain process but speed is variable
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> some people will compete for anything
[22:57] <LeoBodnar> so heat does not dissipate fast enough and rubber breaks earlier
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> i see
[22:57] <LeoBodnar> We have build (=sold) them the test rg
[22:57] <LeoBodnar> *rig
[22:58] <LeoBodnar> The best rubber made for competition flying was June 1998
[22:59] <LeoBodnar> There is some still around and it is about x10 the cost of freshly produced one
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> wow
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[22:59] <Laurenceb_> serious business
[22:59] <LeoBodnar> It's like wine
[22:59] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> yea almost
[22:59] <LeoBodnar> they are mad
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:59] <arko> like natural rubber?
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[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, that reminds me of something
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> I recently saw a crazy ad banner in my mailbox
[23:00] <LeoBodnar> It is mostly natural but it has some doping agents
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> suggesting one should invest in rubber plantations
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:00] <LeoBodnar> it used to be made for golf balls internals
[23:00] <arko> oh wow
[23:01] <LeoBodnar> one of the doping agents was mildly cancerogenic so golf ball manufacturers modified the formula and it has become much worse
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[23:02] <arko> haha
[23:02] <arko> "well we filled it with asbestos..."
[23:03] <LeoBodnar> it's like lead-free all over again
[23:03] <bertrik> reminds me of the "happy fun ball" :)
[23:03] <LeoBodnar> Anyway we are testing rubber for the last manufacturer left
[23:04] <LeoBodnar> bit it's "ain't what it used to be"
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:04] <LeoBodnar> humans are crazy
[23:05] <LeoBodnar> back to latex balloons then
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, do you still have flights planned this year?
[23:06] <LeoBodnar> yeah!
[23:06] <LeoBodnar> made a few trackers today
[23:06] <DL7AD> Lunar_Lander: are you able to solder smd pcbs on your own?
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> not yet
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> the others and I have to get some training in that
[23:07] <DL7AD> im currently blocked by my exams but i still need somebody to test my prototype i made 1 month ago
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[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I myself have to finish my Thesis until the start of January
[23:08] <arko> oh sweet, more leo flights
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[23:08] <DL7AD> Lunar_Lander: are you already finished for this year with stuy?
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> yea, but as I said I have to write my thesis
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[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> I could ask my friends if they have time
[23:09] <DL7AD> Lunar_Lander: ah forgot that
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> no problem
[23:10] <DL7AD> Lunar_Lander: ive still two samples of them
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[23:10] <DL7AD> i would ship it to you for free if you have someone who can solder it
[23:11] <DL7AD> i dont have the equipment and the right handling for it ^^
[23:12] <DL7AD> Lunar_Lander: but we could talk later about. i have 2 exams to go this year
[23:12] <DL7AD> one tomorrow and one on friday
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> what about?
[23:16] <DL7AD> virtual reality and geomatics on friday. btw: this semester we had embedded c :P :P :P
[23:16] <DL7AD> virtual reality is about creating 3d models in the computer.
[23:17] <DL7AD> and geomatics about navigation
[23:20] <DL7AD> okay gn!
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[23:28] <MLow-werk> hey does anyone want a probably broken HX1-144.390-3 for free? just cover shipping
[23:28] <MLow-werk> it decodes like 50% of the time and im just getting a -10, and a 434 module
[23:29] <fsphil> tempting
[23:29] <arko> FASTed: looks like i should be there around 7:30
[23:30] <MLow-werk> anyone with more skill than me could probably get it working %100, i just don't want to fiddle with it anymore
[23:30] <MLow-werk> it just probably needs to be tuned, I made the mistake of turning the pots on the face of it, so it's probably off
[23:32] <MLow-werk> oh well, i'll probably just tape it to my wall as a mark of failure to remind me
[23:36] <FASTed> arko: OK it sounds like we willb e going. traffic is a bear until a bit later so we may not be there until about 8:30
[23:36] <arko> cool
[23:36] <arko> yeah, traffic on the 5 is crap
[23:37] <arko> 1015 S Main Street Los Angeles, CA 90015
[23:37] <arko> 3rd floor
[23:37] <arko> parking is free in the parking lot we are connected to
[23:37] <fsphil> wonder if google maps can get me there
[23:37] <arko> if you hit the button marked [NSL] it buzzes us
[23:38] <arko> fsphil: jump into your screen
[23:38] <fsphil> "We could not calculate directions" awww
[23:38] <arko> haha
[23:38] <arko> start swimming fsphil
[23:39] <FASTed> anything we should bring? I thought we would bring our tracker and an APRS radio
[23:39] <arko> bring it on over!
[23:39] <arko> why not
[23:39] <arko> laptops too usually
[23:40] <arko> at least i do
[23:40] <FASTed> OK
[23:40] <arko> i got my radios there
[23:40] <arko> hmm
[23:40] <arko> oh right, check your pm
[23:40] <FASTed> how do I do that?
[23:40] <arko> are you on the web interface?
[23:40] <FASTed> yes
[23:40] <arko> there should be a button on the top now that says "arko"
[23:40] <arko> click that tab
[23:41] <arko> i messaged you my number in case
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[23:42] <FASTed> got it
[23:42] <arko> cool
[23:42] <FASTed> how do you send a PM if one has not already been started?
[23:42] <arko> "/query name"
[23:43] <arko> so you type "/query arko" to start it
[23:44] <FASTed> ok useful
[23:46] <FASTed> Upu sent me one also glad you mentioned it or I might not have noticed
[23:46] <arko> haha
[23:47] <arko> so most of us have irc bouncers running
[23:47] <arko> essentially another server that keeps the session open and logs for like the last day or so
[23:48] <arko> so when we open up our clients we will have any messages sent to us and a back log of each channel we are in (last day or so of what was said)
[23:48] <arko> thats why you see some of us on 24/7
[23:48] <fsphil> also some people just don't sleep
[23:48] <arko> that too
[23:48] <FASTed> I figured you were just cyborgs
[23:48] <arko> i am a robot for example
[23:48] <LeoBodnar> some people are aliens
[23:48] <arko> like LeoBodnar
[23:48] <fsphil> he really is
[23:48] <arko> from the planet habicron perci 8
[23:49] <fsphil> they have latex mines there
[23:49] <arko> 1998 was a good year
[23:50] <LeoBodnar> well remembered :D
[23:50] <arko> reminds me of 1997
[23:50] <arko> a good year for wine
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[23:51] <fsphil> I used to like wine, but these days I rarely use windows apps
[23:52] <arko> OH YOU
[23:52] <fsphil> I can't help it
[23:52] <arko> http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1368/21/1368215696954.jpg
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[23:56] <MLow-werk> anyone ever put gyro/accelerometers in a payload?
[23:56] <MLow-werk> then like do a visualization to see what it's doing
[23:56] <arko> yes
[23:57] <MLow-werk> i just had the idea to do that
[23:57] <WillTablet> If I have a really really small yagi, say 20cm long, what would be the cheapest rotator for it?
[23:57] <fsphil> your arm
[23:57] <MLow-werk> 2 micro servos?
[23:57] <MLow-werk> and some balsa wood
[23:58] <MLow-werk> arko: who?
[23:58] <arko> ?
[23:58] <arko> lots of people
[23:58] <arko> including me
[23:58] <MLow-werk> whats the payload look like moving around?
[23:59] <arko> jf;aosjfiaewhgaiuhegal;wioejf;aoweijfawo
[23:59] <arko> like that
[23:59] <MLow-werk> with 6DOF you should get some really cool visualization
[23:59] <arko> thats an ascii representation
[23:59] <Lunar_Lander> arko, the front page of your Conference Talk is cool :P
[23:59] <Lunar_Lander> just to inject that
[23:59] <MLow-werk> i mean like a 3d visualization
[23:59] <arko> MLow-werk: i thought that too but you really need to record either the raw data which is a lot
[23:59] <arko> or processes real time and filter it out
[00:00] --- Wed Dec 18 2013