highaltitude.log.20131206

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[00:36] <N2NXZ> looks quiet out there
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[01:10] <N2NXZ> CNS-18 statistics > The final numbers on this balloon flight 55 hours, 54 minutes, 6092.5 Great Circle miles, 118,262 altitude, highest speed 232 MPH.
[01:11] <N2NXZ> http://www.cnsp-inc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/us-1024x643.jpg
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> :)
[01:12] <N2NXZ> http://www.cnsp-inc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/mor.jpg
[01:12] <N2NXZ> Just for reference :)
[01:13] <SpeedEvil> Wow! you've invented teleportation!
[01:13] <SpeedEvil> :)
[01:13] <N2NXZ> lol
[01:14] <SpeedEvil> The - replay the log every few hours - idea used by Leo is a good plan.
[01:15] <N2NXZ> the time of that flight is not that long...we are on 52hrs now
[01:16] <N2NXZ> splash down...lol
[01:18] <N2NXZ> Will say one thing though...that was really fun and cant wait to try again
[01:18] <N2NXZ> Thanks to everyone who was involved for sure...no sleep for many I bet
[01:19] <N2NXZ> good news tho...fixed my PC and able to access the old HD yet...got all my stuff again...lol
[01:20] <craag> :)
[01:20] <craag> I look forward to your next flight!
[01:21] <N2NXZ> me too..and others
[01:21] <N2NXZ> bunch of party balloons here yet...and 510 psi of he
[01:21] <N2NXZ> and a lawn chair :)
[01:21] <craag> Achieving float with a 1600g can be quite tricky, and you know you got that bit right.
[01:22] <craag> haha
[01:22] <N2NXZ> i liked the vent idea a lot
[01:23] <N2NXZ> Hey...if it was easy...we wouldnt do it
[01:23] <craag> Absolutely :)
[01:23] <N2NXZ> whats the farthest recorded foil balloon traveled?
[01:24] <N2NXZ> or bunch
[01:24] <craag> Leo has that record, by a long way
[01:24] <craag> He's had several go cross europe
[01:24] <N2NXZ> u know milage off hand?
[01:24] <N2NXZ> cool
[01:24] <craag> I don't think anybodys done x-altlantic ;)
[01:25] <craag> 3576km
[01:25] <craag> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:uk_records?s[]=records#distance_great_circle
[01:25] <N2NXZ> single foil?
[01:25] <craag> yep
[01:25] <craag> 92cm
[01:25] <craag> with ~11g payload
[01:26] <N2NXZ> wow
[01:26] <N2NXZ> Now I want to get foil balloons and use up this gas...lol
[01:26] <craag> Oh, that one was 15.7g
[01:26] <craag> one of his early dual 70cm/APRS
[01:27] <N2NXZ> i would need a bunch of foil balloons for 500 psi
[01:27] <N2NXZ> send my APRS ...lol
[01:28] <craag> People have floated the foils with upto 40g or so
[01:28] <N2NXZ> think i need much more for these bricks...lol
[01:29] <N2NXZ> how many cu ft in a foil?
[01:29] <N2NXZ> 1?
[01:29] <craag> about 0.1cu m iirc
[01:29] <N2NXZ> need about 50 foils...lol
[01:30] <craag> so about 3.5 cu ft
[01:30] <craag> well you can string multiple ones together of course.
[01:30] <N2NXZ> interesting
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[01:30] <N2NXZ> thinking now
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[01:30] <N2NXZ> 500 psi too much to return
[01:31] <craag> I agree!
[01:31] <craag> What trackers can you make quickly and cheaply?
[01:31] <N2NXZ> from a 2000 psi tank,sent 2 hwoyee 1600`s...500 left
[01:32] <N2NXZ> 510 actually
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[01:32] <N2NXZ> too much math for my brain now
[01:32] <N2NXZ> now want to weigh the APRS stuff...lol
[01:33] <craag> What APRS kit do you use?
[01:33] <craag> off the shelf units?
[01:34] <N2NXZ> tinytrak3plus
[01:34] <N2NXZ> gps4
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[01:36] <craag> Yeah once you've hooked radio, that unit and gps together with 9-pin sockets it starts getting very weighty
[01:36] <craag> I'd have a go with the radiometrix HX1 transmitter, arduino and ublox gps.
[01:36] <N2NXZ> my HT...brick
[01:36] <craag> I reckon you could easily get something in the ~50g range that way.
[01:37] <craag> BTW Leo uses 15mW for his APRS... so 300mW from the HX1 is way more than enough.
[01:37] <N2NXZ> this is 1.5 watt or 1 watt...lol
[01:38] <N2NXZ> it almost went on this flight
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[01:41] <craag> We're hoping to get some changes to the Amateur Radio license over here that would allow us use APRS airborne
[01:41] <craag> But currently 70cm RTTY is quite nice, 100% duty cycle downlink and keeps everyone involved receiving!
[01:41] <N2NXZ> so 144.8 land only?
[01:42] <craag> yep
[01:42] <craag> No Amateur Radio airborne. Full stop.
[01:42] <N2NXZ> land,sea...and thats it
[01:42] <craag> yep
[01:42] <N2NXZ> hmmm...bet you get it done
[01:42] <N2NXZ> not even aircraft can use them...or just balloons?
[01:43] <craag> neither aircraft nor balloons can use Ham radio
[01:43] <N2NXZ> wow...odd,wonder why
[01:43] <craag> the 70cm RTTY stuff is in the ISM band, unlicensed at 10mW max power.
[01:43] <N2NXZ> which is USA amateur band
[01:44] <craag> Yep, overlaps with UK Amateur band too.
[01:44] <N2NXZ> 420.0 to 450.0 here
[01:44] <craag> But that has brought us a few extra people who've been hunting for 70cm dx, found some rtty, googled what they decoded and found us.
[01:45] <N2NXZ> cool
[01:45] <N2NXZ> if not for SSB 70cm and 2m...would not own it
[01:46] <N2NXZ> not a fan of the repeater stuff...YAWN
[01:47] <craag> I chat on repeaters on the commute if there's people I want to talk to on.
[01:47] <N2NXZ> not primarily tho
[01:48] <N2NXZ> ok for passing info and such
[01:48] <N2NXZ> here,some guys live on them
[01:49] <craag> I know.. I lived in virginia for a year and went to a lot of effort to take my rig out there and mod it for your 2m band.
[01:49] <craag> local repeater was jam-packed with people talking about haemerroids..
[01:50] <N2NXZ> LOL
[01:50] <craag> Figured I'd try it out anyway, but as soon as I put a call out, it would go dead.
[01:50] <N2NXZ> like a record at times
[01:50] <N2NXZ> not good on repeaters here...just not me
[01:50] <craag> Then overhead a conversation where one of them had reported me to the FCC for jamming their repeater, as apparently I wasn't licensed :P
[01:51] <N2NXZ> seems i always do something wrong...at least the 2m cops tell me all the time :)
[01:51] <craag> haha yeah, but W7?/M0DNY/M really shocked them!
[01:52] <craag> Oh well. Yeah I mainly just do RAYNET, club contests, and playing around with VHF/UHF data transmitters.
[01:52] <N2NXZ> simplex!!!
[01:53] <craag> Don't have a decent enough QTH for that unfortunately :/
[01:54] <N2NXZ> multi elements !!! lol
[01:54] <N2NXZ> 1.5 kw
[01:54] <craag> that'd be nice :)
[01:54] <N2NXZ> kidding..
[01:54] <N2NXZ> yes...nice'
[01:54] <craag> also student rented house..
[01:55] <N2NXZ> can even cook with it
[01:55] <N2NXZ> no kw then
[01:56] <N2NXZ> i like low power myself
[01:58] <craag> We've done a good bit of HF QRP with the university club, very satisfying to make a contact with a US QRO station, with 5W :)
[01:59] <N2NXZ> qrp is rewarding
[01:59] <N2NXZ> guess how much the APRS stuff weighs here :)
[01:59] <N2NXZ> without gps batts
[02:00] <N2NXZ> 493.2817 g
[02:00] <craag> hmm 300g?
[02:00] <craag> very precise :)
[02:00] <N2NXZ> fish scale
[02:01] <N2NXZ> could make it lighter by eliminating cables and serial connector
[02:01] <N2NXZ> take the knobs off the ht...lol
[02:01] <N2NXZ> just strip it down..
[02:02] <craag> Do you have any experience programming AVR/PIC?
[02:02] <N2NXZ> terrible at the pic program
[02:03] <N2NXZ> 10m beacon with 9v...54.4 g
[02:04] <N2NXZ> sounds like foil balloon time
[02:04] <craag> :)
[02:04] <craag> Sounds good to me
[02:04] <N2NXZ> too hard to get many to listen
[02:04] <craag> if it bursts, go get it and try again.
[02:04] <N2NXZ> here
[02:05] <N2NXZ> this one just came in by mail yesterday
[02:05] <craag> The real way to get the weight down is to use your own microcontroller, like the AVR in upu's boards.
[02:05] <N2NXZ> fell all the way from 1600 g last launch
[02:05] <N2NXZ> yes
[02:05] <craag> It's exactly the same as an arduino
[02:06] <N2NXZ> they are so small.and really cool...seems a shame to lose them
[02:06] <craag> One of them, a GPS chip and a 2m TX module is all you need for APRS :)
[02:06] <craag> hehe, he mass produces them :) He's more concerned about not being able to work out what went wrong I think.
[02:07] <N2NXZ> ha ha ...well one went off just before we got to launch site...that was a bummer
[02:07] <N2NXZ> maybe it started later...who knows
[02:08] <craag> Yep that was rather annoying, as the APRS should have been able to help you track it all the way to the coast!
[02:08] <N2NXZ> but he had it set off until around 300m
[02:08] <craag> ah ok
[02:09] <N2NXZ> never know if it ever worked that way
[02:09] <craag> Only answer is to try again :P
[02:09] <N2NXZ> maybe watch APRS tonight...lol
[02:09] <craag> Right, gone 2am here, I should go to bed. Putting up a new WebSDR receiver tomorrow!
[02:10] <craag> gn
[02:10] <N2NXZ> GL on the SDR..cool rx...ok,me 2...gonna rest a bit
[02:10] <N2NXZ> gn
[02:10] <N2NXZ> tnx
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[04:08] <hihi_> any word on the ballon?
[04:12] <N2NXZ> nothing...
[04:12] <N2NXZ> tomorrow morning going to listen for beacon for kicks
[04:13] <N2NXZ> think I am heading to bed...been a long week
[04:13] <N2NXZ> see ya all later...thanks for everyone listening for it!!!
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[04:28] <arko> just tried out a few global tuners
[04:28] <arko> nada
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[08:21] <DL7AD> morning
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[08:40] <LeoBodnar> morning
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[08:54] Nick change: Mission-Critical -> MissionCritical
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[09:06] <WillDWork> any launches this weekend? can't see any in the calendar
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[09:14] <DL7AD_> morning LeoBodnar WillDWork
[09:14] Nick change: DL7AD_ -> DL7AD
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[09:18] <fsphil> haven't heard of any launches, which may mean a LeoBodnar launch later
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[09:32] <DL7AD> its snowing in berlin fsphil
[09:32] <fsphil> oooh nice
[09:33] <fsphil> we had some ice last night but it had melted by the morning
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[09:55] <ok1cdj> hello all
[10:01] <nats`> hi
[10:25] <DL7AD> morning ok1cdj nats`
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[11:15] <Darkside> G0RBD on 10m
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[11:23] <gonzo__> 10-4
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[11:43] <f5vnf> #linux
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[12:00] <fsphil> I try
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[13:01] <N2NXZ> Good morning anyone...just woke and waking up...need coffee.:)
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[13:16] <UpuWork> 2 meter habamp prototype : http://i.imgur.com/Mq6aIb5.jpg
[13:16] <UpuWork> if anyone is interested
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[13:17] <mattbrejza> any reason for the long trace from the middle inductor to gnd?
[13:17] <UpuWork> probably
[13:18] <UpuWork> and by long you mean 2mm yeah ?
[13:18] <mattbrejza> well the other one isnt so long
[13:18] <UpuWork> just checking
[13:18] <UpuWork> yes the track to the other inductor runs underneth
[13:19] <Darkside> mattbrejza: it doesnt go to ground
[13:19] <LeoBodnar> It looks like LNA power
[13:19] <mattbrejza> oh i see
[13:19] <Darkside> exactly
[13:19] <UpuWork> however confirming oven and stencil works
[13:19] <Darkside> its the bias tap
[13:19] <UpuWork> no tis not GND
[13:19] <mattbrejza> that makes more sense
[13:20] <UpuWork> mouse bites are shit need to work on those
[13:20] <Darkside> should note that that ground around the edge isn't really needed UpuWork
[13:20] <UpuWork> I know but it looks nice
[13:20] <Darkside> yeah but its meant to not have solder mask on it
[13:20] <Darkside> the reason its there is so you can solder th edgs to a tin box
[13:20] <Darkside> if you want to mak your own box to go around it
[13:20] <UpuWork> well
[13:20] <Darkside> but you cant do that with where you placed the regulator
[13:20] <UpuWork> that was way back when it was a thin board
[13:20] <UpuWork> yep
[13:21] <Darkside> (which was why th regulator was on the bottom on my design)
[13:21] <mattbrejza> i was going to say that i like how you could convert it to ->SAW->LNA-> by just rotating all the components by 180o
[13:21] <mattbrejza> but that bias messes that idea up :P
[13:21] <Darkside> mattbrejza: nope
[13:21] <Darkside> exactly
[13:21] <Darkside> also the LNA's footprint is asymmetric
[13:21] <LeoBodnar> exposed GND around the edges with lotsa vias gives anything cool RF look
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[13:22] <Darkside> the LNA has a pretty high IP3 anyway
[13:22] <Darkside> so unless you're transmitting right next to it, you shoudl be OK with it how it is
[13:22] <mattbrejza> yea makes sense
[13:22] <Darkside> anyway, at 2m you can gt away with a fair bit
[13:22] <Darkside> but this is intended for sat downlink telemetry, so noise figure is important
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[13:26] <LeoBodnar> have you hit any local APRS igate yet Upu ?
[13:27] <UpuWork> nah we don't have any locally
[13:27] <UpuWork> only mine when it was working
[13:28] <LeoBodnar> Took my tracker with APRS turned on and connected to magmount 70cm/2m for a car drive around Northampton. nowt
[13:30] <UpuWork> Yeah same here
[13:31] <UpuWork> I made the Habduino into a car tracker
[13:31] <UpuWork> didn't get a hit at all
[13:32] <LeoBodnar> I can understand why many think that you need a 5W APRS tracker for a balloon
[13:33] <Darkside> we use 300mW on ours
[13:33] <Darkside> its more for getting over local stations
[13:33] <Darkside> if thres no local traffic, then lss power is fine
[13:33] <Darkside> though it'll depend what the aprs digi/igate's squlch is set to
[13:34] <LeoBodnar> I had problems near Rome with 15mW but got through about 10% of packets
[13:34] <Darkside> yeah, we wanted ALL of our packets to gt through lol
[13:34] <LeoBodnar> 500km on 15mW
[13:34] <Darkside> it was probably the most use some of the igates had in a while
[13:36] <LeoBodnar> I did not expect 15mW APRS to be heard by anybody, but it far exceeded any expectations
[13:36] <UpuWork> I was surprised
[13:38] <Darkside> yeah, irs pretty cool
[13:38] <Darkside> how are you doing the AFSK modulation?
[13:38] <Darkside> DDS'ing the output frquency? or modulating the crystal
[13:38] <LeoBodnar> Digitally
[13:38] <Darkside> or something else
[13:38] <Darkside> sending 0101 at 1200 and 2400 baud?
[13:39] <Darkside> thats how the bigredbee aprs unit does it
[13:39] <Darkside> bit of a hack, but it works
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> I am doing pre-emphasis
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> What's bigredbee?
[13:40] <Darkside> another APRS all-in-on eunit
[13:40] <Darkside> uses some analog devices chip
[13:40] <Darkside> hrm, im not sure you ned the pre-emphasis
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> So instantaneous frequency depends on phase
[13:40] <Darkside> as most APRS receivrs should be bypassint the de-mphasis
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> You do!
[13:41] <LeoBodnar> Most APRS receivers work off phones output
[13:41] <Darkside> hrmmm
[13:41] <Darkside> ah ok
[13:41] <LeoBodnar> so 3dB/oct
[13:41] <Darkside> in which case you'd want the pre-emphasis
[13:41] <LeoBodnar> you get almost 50% difference between 1200 and 2200 tones
[13:41] <mattbrejza> pre-emphasis being adding some gain to the 2400Hz tone?
[13:41] <Darkside> still, thts a pretty amazing achievement out of that chip
[13:42] <Darkside> if you could document how you did it that'd be excellent :-)
[13:42] <mattbrejza> but it thought the transmitter was constant power?
[13:42] <mattbrejza> oh dw
[13:42] <LeoBodnar> On my ICOM IC-R20 signal looked total crap without pre-emph
[13:42] <mattbrejza> being silly
[13:42] <Darkside> tone power, not signal power
[13:42] <mattbrejza> forgot AFSK not FSK
[13:43] <LeoBodnar> constant power? I do pulse shaping on Contestia :p
[13:43] <Darkside> i am amazed you got that working
[13:43] <LeoBodnar> Would be cool to do AM voice
[13:43] <Darkside> also why contestia and not olivia?
[13:43] <Darkside> olivia has slightly better FEC iirc
[13:43] <Darkside> well, longer FEC
[13:43] <LeoBodnar> Olivia has full alphabet, I like the fact that Contestia has only 64 chars
[13:43] <Darkside> ahh right
[13:44] <LeoBodnar> It's the same code essentially just a smaller block
[13:44] <Darkside> so you implemented contestia in PIC assembly?
[13:44] <LeoBodnar> sure how else? :D
[13:44] <Darkside> ...
[13:44] <fsphil> +...
[13:44] <Darkside> you're a madman
[13:44] <LeoBodnar> I know I am
[13:44] <Darkside> a genius madman
[13:44] <Darkside> bloody hell
[13:45] <Darkside> seriously, please documnt some of your Si chip hacks :-)
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> I had Microchip european online manager yesterday tell me the same
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> wilco!
[13:45] <Darkside> so some of us who are slightly less insane can implement it in C
[13:45] <Darkside> well
[13:45] <Darkside> likely C with inline assembly
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> I'd rather use better chip to be honest
[13:46] <Darkside> AVR
[13:46] <Darkside> plz
[13:46] <LeoBodnar> Hacks are nice and all but this is probably the most this chip can do
[13:46] <Darkside> surely more registers could b usful >_>
[13:46] <LeoBodnar> I mean Si446*
[13:46] <Darkside> oh
[13:47] <Darkside> how the hell did you do pulse shaping for contestia?
[13:47] <Darkside> as technically olivia/contestia has 2 tones present at one time
[13:47] <Darkside> theres a small amount of overlap
[13:47] <LeoBodnar> Well not that bit
[13:47] <Darkside> the symbol window is twice the symbol lngth
[13:48] <Darkside> im surprised you got it to work
[13:48] <mattbrejza> persumably by just adjusting the output power register on the radio?
[13:48] <Darkside> i had a go writing a modulator and couldnt get it to demodulate without it
[13:48] <Darkside> but i may have just stuffed something
[13:48] <LeoBodnar> I know, waveform looks very weird on proper Olivia signal
[13:48] <Darkside> A) not constant amplitude
[13:48] <Darkside> which is annoying
[13:49] <LeoBodnar> But it is mostly for reducing the spectrum bw rather than inter-symbol interference
[13:49] <Darkside> yp
[13:49] <Darkside> yep
[13:49] <Darkside> and if you dont care about that, you dont do it
[13:49] <Darkside> did you try it with constant amplitude?
[13:49] <LeoBodnar> yes mattbrejza
[13:49] <LeoBodnar> yes, it extends below the waterfall into the next room
[13:50] <Darkside> hah
[13:50] <LeoBodnar> but we don't care with 10mW and ISM
[13:50] <Darkside> i think the demodulator uses some part of the pulse shaping for symbol sync too
[13:50] <Darkside> so it may require it
[13:50] <LeoBodnar> I don't know. I think PSK31 uses AM part of the pulse for sync
[13:51] <Darkside> fldigi will demod PSK31 without pulse shaping just fine :-)
[13:51] <LeoBodnar> so PSK31 won't work with non-AM-modulated signal
[13:51] <LeoBodnar> Oh?
[13:51] <Darkside> i've done it
[13:51] <LeoBodnar> Or do I mix it up with other mode?
[13:51] <Darkside> on HF, no less >_>
[13:51] <Darkside> yes, it was nasty
[13:51] <Darkside> nope, you're right
[13:51] <Darkside> PSK31 does use raised cosine pulse shaping
[13:52] <Darkside> im not sure if all demodulators work teh same way, but fldigi will happy demodulate it even with no pulse shaping
[13:52] <Darkside> the signal looks horiffic, and if you transmitted it in any HF bands PSK segment you'd get murderd, but it does work
[13:53] <mattbrejza> well hopefully the rx will put the signal through a filter so the remaining blocks in the rx chain should get something reasonably nice
[13:53] <LeoBodnar> Darkside: Contestia decodes without any AM modulation but looks horrible
[13:53] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: cool, that means my code is broken
[13:53] <Darkside> :P
[13:53] <Darkside> mattbrejza: im sure it does
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[13:54] <LeoBodnar> By the time I have got WalshHadamard transform working I though why the heck not just slower DomEX?!
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:54] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: THOR4
[13:54] <Darkside> slow as hell
[13:54] <Darkside> but also incredibly reliable
[13:55] <Darkside> not quite below-the-noise reliable like olivia 32/1000, but pretty good
[13:55] <Darkside> and is just Rat 1/2 convolutional coding
[13:55] <Darkside> rate*
[13:55] <Darkside> so dead simple to implement
[13:57] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: http://i.imgur.com/rDYEYdn.png Hard keyed PSK31, transmitted through a Class-D amp
[13:57] <Darkside> then received on another radio
[14:00] <Darkside> i did some experimentatio with shaping the phase transitions, but nver got too far
[14:02] <LeoBodnar> So Olivia is better than Thor?
[14:02] <LeoBodnar> Did you use DDS for PSK31?
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[14:08] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: yeah, was an AD9834 DDS
[14:08] <DL7AD_> good afternoon
[14:09] <LeoBodnar> I remember you mentioned it few months ago
[14:09] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: in terms of reliability, Olivia 32/1000 and THOR 11 are similar
[14:09] <Darkside> sorry, Olivia 8/500 and THOR11 are similar
[14:09] <LeoBodnar> Did it have high phase noise or something like that?
[14:09] <Darkside> yeah its not the best
[14:09] <Darkside> well
[14:09] <Darkside> i'd be happy to put it on the air
[14:09] <Darkside> and i have done so
[14:10] <LeoBodnar> I am more concerned about readibility per speed ratio
[14:11] <Darkside> right
[14:11] <Darkside> let me upload some plots
[14:11] <Darkside> i did a massive amount of simulation on this for som eof my research work
[14:11] <Darkside> of course that was over simulated HF channels
[14:11] <Darkside> but ehh
[14:12] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/E1cXvJo.png
[14:12] <LeoBodnar> we had similar discussion about half a year ago but I did not pay much attention at the time
[14:12] <Darkside> those were the modes i tested
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> With a random char set?
[14:13] <Darkside> yeah
[14:13] <Darkside> well,
[14:13] <Darkside> short packts
[14:13] <Darkside> packets*
[14:13] <Darkside> its an approximation of the BER anyway
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> DomEX is slower vs advertised speed as it has variable length varicode and unfortunately we happen to use longer codes fro HABing
[14:14] <LeoBodnar> great chart
[14:14] <Darkside> yeah, you mak a good point about that
[14:14] <Darkside> unfortunately none of the modes really pass arbitrary bytes
[14:14] <Darkside> except for RTTY
[14:14] <Darkside> they were all designed for text transfer
[14:15] <Darkside> well, 'chat'
[14:15] <fsphil> we could probably just send raw bits, ignore the character set
[14:15] <Darkside> it wouldn't be particularlt efficient
[14:15] <fsphil> a valid character decode isn't part of the FEC so it would still work as well
[14:15] <LeoBodnar> we need a bleed'n' binary protocol standard!
[14:16] <fsphil> I'm thinking of a binary data
[14:16] <fsphil> just send two 32-bit values for coordinates
[14:16] <Darkside> fsphil: you mean pack the binary data as text?
[14:16] <Darkside> like base64?
[14:16] <Darkside> or whatever
[14:16] <fsphil> oh no
[14:16] <fsphil> just send the bits
[14:16] <fsphil> as is
[14:16] <LeoBodnar> 24 bit values would be enough
[14:16] <Darkside> you cant pass arbitrary byts to the modems
[14:17] <fsphil> you could in thor
[14:17] <Darkside> not all of them allow characters >127 for example
[14:17] <Darkside> i think the mfsk varicode does go that high
[14:17] <fsphil> the symbol is a 4-bit value
[14:17] <Darkside> but its ineffient as all hell
[14:17] <LeoBodnar> You can with Contestia/Olivia
[14:17] <fsphil> and the data being valid varicode is not required
[14:17] <Darkside> oh you mean roll your own entirely
[14:17] <Darkside> i mean, we could do that
[14:17] <LeoBodnar> it does not have any "significant" chars
[14:17] <Darkside> i've made a start
[14:18] <Darkside> as we can pull out demodulated symbols from the thor demodulator easily
[14:18] <fsphil> indeedy
[14:18] <Darkside> you can then decide what does symbols mean yourself
[14:18] <fsphil> just feed the bits into the habitat code
[14:18] <Darkside> well
[14:18] <Darkside> no
[14:18] <LeoBodnar> Contestia operates with 6 bit chars but it is easy to repackage 8 bit bytes into 6 bit chunks
[14:19] <fsphil> it doens't do bit streams yet
[14:19] <fsphil> or does it
[14:19] <Darkside> my thought was a packet based mode
[14:19] <Darkside> not a text stream mode
[14:19] <Darkside> where you have a packet which is, say, 32 bytes long
[14:19] <Darkside> 2 of thoe are a checksum
[14:19] <Darkside> then some kind of sync header
[14:19] <fsphil> that's what I'm thinking
[14:19] <Darkside> then you add FEC and interleaving
[14:19] <Darkside> and away you go
[14:19] <fsphil> a small set of RS codes on the packet
[14:20] <Darkside> ehh
[14:20] <Darkside> i'd probably just to convolutional coding
[14:20] <Darkside> it works
[14:20] <fsphil> true
[14:20] <Darkside> did you know WSPR uses it
[14:20] <LeoBodnar> Contestia/Olivia demods always return a block so you don't have to sync on a bit level
[14:20] <gonzo__> are we doing a new hab mode here?
[14:20] <fsphil> RS?
[14:20] <Darkside> WSPR uses convolutional coding
[14:20] <fsphil> ah
[14:20] <Darkside> at some ridicuous rate
[14:20] <Darkside> oh wait
[14:20] <fsphil> didn't think that would work on such a small data set
[14:21] <Darkside> its Rate 1/2, but constraint length 32 or somthing
[14:21] <Darkside> which makes the trellis huge
[14:21] <Darkside> but eh, its almost 2014
[14:21] <Darkside> we can do that shit nowdays
[14:21] <fsphil> moar cycles!
[14:21] <Darkside> yup
[14:22] <Darkside> anyways, i think a modem spec based around say, a 16, 32 or 64 byt packet with a MFSK modulator would b cool
[14:22] <Darkside> or, a whatever modulator
[14:22] <mattbrejza> *cough* turbo...
[14:22] <Darkside> mattbrejza: *cough* LDPC
[14:22] <fsphil> isn't that patented?
[14:22] <Darkside> get with the times
[14:22] <Darkside> also fuckkkk that
[14:23] <Darkside> too comp[lex
[14:23] <Darkside> i dont even know where to start with LDPC codes
[14:23] <mattbrejza> turbo is much easier to encode on something small
[14:23] <Darkside> turbo is simple enough, but yeah, its patented
[14:23] <Darkside> turbo is just 2 convolutional encoders
[14:23] <Darkside> with some extra stuff
[14:23] <fsphil> feeds back into itself doesn't it?
[14:23] <Darkside> yah
[14:23] <mattbrejza> also not sure if ldpc codes work well with small bit lengths
[14:23] <Darkside> yeah they dont
[14:24] <Darkside> i remember hearing something about that
[14:24] <Darkside> anyways, convolutional coding would b a good start
[14:24] <mattbrejza> bearing in mind dvb-s2 uses 32400 frame lengths
[14:24] <Darkside> just stick with the tried and tested Rate 1/2 k-7 code
[14:24] <gonzo__> could be worth asking the parent holders for prmission to use. non comersial/research/amateur etc
[14:24] <mattbrejza> well lte has a max of 6144
[14:24] <mattbrejza> *while
[14:24] <Darkside> gonzo__: atm i wouldnt bother
[14:24] <gonzo__> amsat got petrmission for testing on oscar 40
[14:24] <Darkside> turbo coding is probably not needed
[14:24] <mattbrejza> i dont think the original turbo encoder is patented
[14:25] <mattbrejza> im not sure what the patents cover
[14:25] <Darkside> we cant do too much about SNR, but we can help with short fades
[14:25] <Darkside> which is the most common problem faced with HABs
[14:25] <Darkside> losing one or two characters in a string
[14:25] <fsphil> yea the interleaver is more important than the type of FEC
[14:25] <Darkside> yep
[14:25] <Darkside> so take your 32 bytes, FEC it to say, double that
[14:25] <Darkside> and then apply interleaving
[14:25] <LeoBodnar> it would be wise to detach modulation from protocol levels so it could work even with RTTY
[14:26] <gonzo__> short fade and bit errors are the killer. With a reasonable rx station, the overall SNR is good till the hab drops opff the edge of the world
[14:26] <Darkside> yeah that'd be possible LeoBodnar
[14:26] <Darkside> modulation will affect some interleaving stuff
[14:26] <mattbrejza> Darkside: did you see my simulations for a fading channel with different fec schemes?
[14:26] <Darkside> as you want to have your interleaver fit the modulation bit width
[14:26] <mattbrejza> i didnt do conv though
[14:26] <Darkside> mattbrejza: nope?
[14:26] <mattbrejza> only rs + turbo + repeition
[14:26] <Darkside> ah ok
[14:27] <Darkside> what did oyu use for that? gnuradio?
[14:27] <mattbrejza> na just wrote some matlab
[14:27] <mattbrejza> was for ukhas2013
[14:27] <Darkside> ahh matlab has turbocoding?
[14:27] <Darkside> or did you roll it yourself
[14:27] <mattbrejza> it does when you write it :P
[14:27] <Darkside> hah
[14:27] <Darkside> nice
[14:28] <Darkside> anyways, i'd say lower th SNR limit by lowering the baud rate
[14:28] <Darkside> fix burst errors (i.e. fading) with interleaving and FEC
[14:28] <mattbrejza> http://i.imgur.com/RgsgOtl.png
[14:28] <Darkside> and at that point convolutional coding will do just fin
[14:28] <Darkside> yep i've seen this kind of graph before :P
[14:28] <mattbrejza> http://imgur.com/PmlepMC,gBGST9s
[14:28] <mattbrejza> now iwth added caption
[14:29] <Darkside> mmk
[14:29] <mattbrejza> thats frame error rate also
[14:30] <Darkside> packet error rate?
[14:30] <mattbrejza> yea
[14:30] <Darkside> (same thing i guess)
[14:30] <Darkside> yeah thats basically what i did
[14:30] <Darkside> though i did it through with HF channel sims
[14:30] <Darkside> for various paths
[14:30] <Darkside> similar results though
[14:31] Nick change: Trollence -> Laurenceb
[14:31] <mattbrejza> i cant say i paid too much attention to the channel
[14:31] <Darkside> i couldn't get pure FER/Eb/No plots though
[14:31] <Darkside> as i was of course using blackbox modems
[14:31] <mattbrejza> it was just somethig that had fades in it
[14:31] <mattbrejza> yea this is all perfect sync and so on
[14:32] <Darkside> i'd say that a HAB channl is a burst error channe
[14:32] <mattbrejza> either way the results will be similar
[14:32] <Darkside> fading due to temporary polrisation mismatches
[14:32] <Laurenceb> mattbrejza: nice work
[14:32] <mattbrejza> keep meaning to write all this up
[14:32] <Laurenceb> but dont forget that modulation also effects things
[14:33] <Laurenceb> e.g. mfsk gives you a good gain
[14:33] <mattbrejza> yea its all bpsk
[14:33] <Laurenceb> we are power limited
[14:33] <Darkside> Laurenceb: you might like a look at my data then :P
[14:33] <Laurenceb> so its different from what most people are looking at
[14:33] <mattbrejza> http://imgur.com/PhJyuQc
[14:33] <Laurenceb> which is bandwidth limited
[14:33] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/E1cXvJo.png
[14:34] <Laurenceb> nice graphs
[14:34] <Darkside> Laurenceb: thats constant power stuff
[14:34] <Darkside> though that over a HF multipath & flat fading channel
[14:34] <Darkside> so its not quite the same as a HAB situation
[14:34] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:35] <Darkside> still, it provides a good comparison of fldigi's modes
[14:35] <Darkside> and how they stack up at a fixed power
[14:35] <Laurenceb> so mfsk gives you about 8dB
[14:35] <Laurenceb> oh
[14:35] <Laurenceb> BER
[14:35] <Darkside> and works best when paired with interleaving and FEC
[14:36] <Laurenceb> FER is going to show more change
[14:36] <Darkside> yes
[14:36] <Darkside> my plot is FER effectively
[14:36] <Laurenceb> so 8dB MFSK versus 20dB FEC will not be so pronounced
[14:36] <Darkside> i just didn't do the log plot >_>
[14:36] <Laurenceb> but MFSK + FEC will be very good
[14:36] <Darkside> yep
[14:37] <Darkside> with MFSK you really need th FEC and interleaving, as you lose more bits when you lose a symbol
[14:37] <Laurenceb> but RTTY with no FEC is the lamest
[14:37] <Darkside> and yet we still use it :P
[14:37] <Darkside> haha
[14:37] <Laurenceb> yeah, its the worst mode of all
[14:37] <Darkside> a mode where a single bit error will scrw your packt up
[14:37] <Darkside> the problem with MFSK is drift
[14:37] <Darkside> and thats been a big issue until recently
[14:37] <Laurenceb> that can be deal with easily
[14:38] <Laurenceb> some tracking filtering isnt too hard
[14:38] <Darkside> yes, more recently that problem has gone away
[14:38] <Darkside> Laurenceb: sure, you go write it into the THOR modem
[14:38] <Laurenceb> heh yeah with tcxo
[14:38] <Darkside> i dare you
[14:38] <Laurenceb> no way
[14:38] <Laurenceb> fldigi is horrible
[14:38] <Darkside> :P
[14:38] <Laurenceb> c++ insanity
[14:38] <Darkside> TCXO is is then
[14:38] <Darkside> :P
[14:39] <Darkside> anyway, i cam to teh same conclusion for my HF work
[14:39] <Darkside> that for power limited and reliability fixated situations, MFSK + FEC is the best option
[14:40] <Darkside> you just need to draw the line at how much data you want
[14:40] <Darkside> and that sets your minimum SNR
[14:40] <Darkside> above that level, you handle short fades with FEC
[14:42] <Darkside> i'd suggest fixed packet sizes with a sync header and checksum
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[14:42] <Darkside> so you push your received bits through the interleavr until the output has a sync header and ideally also matches checksum
[14:42] <Darkside> de-interleaver that should b
[14:45] <Darkside> bedtime
[14:57] <x-f> my bicycle is under a layer of snow.. :/
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[15:01] <mattbrejza> go for a cycle...
[15:03] <x-f> i will have to in 10 minutes
[15:03] <mattbrejza> its probably not actually has deep as im imagining
[15:03] <mattbrejza> *as
[15:05] <x-f> a few centimeters for now, but it's still snowing
[15:05] <x-f> world looks completely different now, compared to the one on this morning
[15:05] <mattbrejza> persumably you have a mountain bike with nice chunky tires
[15:06] <mattbrejza> not sure i would want to ride mine in the snow
[15:06] <mattbrejza> would be exciting though
[15:06] <mattbrejza> at least until i fell off
[15:07] <x-f> MTB is at home, i'm not using it in the city :/
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> Damn.
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> http://www.fairchildimaging.com/catalog/focal-plane-arrays/scmos/cis-2521f
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> Me wanty.
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> 100fps 4MP imager with _2_ photoelectron or so readout noise plus dark current.
[15:08] <mattbrejza> im guessing your city council is better at keeping the roads clear of snow than the uk
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[15:09] <x-f> i'm going on vacations and before i turn off the work pc, here's screenshot of snus "for a while" - http://i.imgur.com/FcjNnXp.png
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[15:11] <mattbrejza> i had a tab like that, but chrome crashed so i lost it...
[15:12] <x-f> i feel mine is very close to a crash :)
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[15:19] <Laurenceb> anyone here any good with makefiles?
[15:19] <Laurenceb> im trying to make a verbos/non verbose option
[15:20] <N2NXZ> Sorry...not I
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[15:20] <Laurenceb> $(MAIN_OUT): $(MAIN_OBJS) $(USBLIB)
[15:20] <Laurenceb> $(vecho) "-> Compiling $@"
[15:20] <Laurenceb> $(Q)$(LD) $(CFLAGS) $(TARGET_ARCH) $^ -o $@ $(LDFLAGS)
[15:20] <N2NXZ> Just finished giving up on my PC...HAD TO CHANGE TO NEW
[15:20] <Laurenceb> this kind of works
[15:20] <Laurenceb> but only for linking, not compiling
[15:23] <mfa298> Laurenceb: you might need to overwrite the default "%.o: %.c" target
[15:23] <mfa298> something like lines 15-16 of https://github.com/m1ari/Sandals/blob/master/Makefile
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[15:32] <Laurenceb> interesting
[15:32] <Laurenceb> but there is no %o. target in my makefile
[15:33] <mfa298> I think make has default targets built in for things like that.
[15:33] <Laurenceb> ah
[15:33] <mfa298> you could run "make foo.o" with no makefile and it would do something
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I hadn't realised quite how good solid state imagers had gotten recently.
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: To the point that there is questionable reason for image tubes.
[15:37] <Laurenceb> interesting
[15:37] <Laurenceb> "/tmp/ccYYJ9Bp.s: Assembler messages:
[15:37] <Laurenceb> /tmp/ccYYJ9Bp.s:1049: Error: selected processor does not support ARM mode `dmb'"
[15:37] <Laurenceb> wtf
[15:41] <Laurenceb> seems it missing AS or ASFLAGS now
[15:45] <Laurenceb> fixed it :P
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[16:04] <SpeedEvil> Coincidence - or conspiracy - you decide. http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/styles/media_gallery_large/public/f9_rolls_out_of_hangar.jpg?itok=FOq4D4vg http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uvyBj0KemdE#t=95
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[16:09] <nats`> SpeedEvil I don't understand this is just a picture of a space rocket
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> I found the visual similarity amusing.
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> - the hangers are superficially similar.
[16:14] <eroomde> 'just' a picture of a rocket
[16:15] <nats`> ohhh I can't watch the youtube video here maybe that's why I didn't understand :)
[16:15] <nats`> eroomde the just was linked to the conspiracy stuff
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[16:17] <eroomde> thunderbirds
[16:18] <mattbrejza> now to watch the launch sequences for all the other thunderbirds...
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[16:25] <SpeedEvil> I see someone already did it.
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> http://i.imgur.com/LlU3QnN.jpg
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[16:35] <Laurenceb> haha
[16:35] Nick change: Guest34978 -> nigelvh
[16:37] <eroomde> edith piaf manages to make the word 'milord' into just a gargle
[16:37] <eroomde> it's quite impressive
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[16:45] <nats`> have a nice week end all :)
[16:45] <nats`> bye
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[17:05] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Hi. Any news on N2NXZ/B?
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[17:28] <x-f> nope, it is lost
[17:32] <Upu> I think we are calling it MIA
[17:33] <mattbrejza> iridium next time?
[17:33] <Upu> yes wb8elk has suggested that
[17:33] <Upu> suggest making it float :)
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[17:33] <Upu> air deployed Kraken
[17:33] <mattbrejza> although the HF should be heard non LOS
[17:33] <mfa298> need to call it B-*
[17:34] <Upu> actually B-* ? :)
[17:34] <blitz__> is there a url that shows current position?
[17:34] <mfa298> work out which sets of numbers worked best and use the next good number
[17:34] <Upu> blitz__ last know : http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[17:34] <mattbrejza> well i wonder how easy it would be to make a waterproof solar powered floating iridium based thingy
[17:35] <x-f> arko needs to do a Trans-Am floater with a tube to prove if this technic works
[17:35] <blitz__> The one in the original article I read yday isnt updated
[17:35] <blitz__> Thnx ill try that
[17:36] <blitz__> Yeah thats the one that doesnt seem to be updating.
[17:36] <blitz__> Also i tried all the callsigns in aprs.fi with no joy
[17:36] <mfa298> blitz__: there's not been any data from the N2NXZ balloon for a few days
[17:37] <blitz__> splains that, ok thanks.
[17:37] <mfa298> it's potentially come down in the middle of the atlantic somewhere.
[17:37] <blitz__> Im gonna try the 10 meter freq, bands pretty good, anyone hear the beacon 2day?
[17:37] <mfa298> or the radios failed, or it's still out of range of any receivers
[17:38] <blitz__> Ugh, roger on the failure, hope thats not the case.
[17:39] <mfa298> there'll be more balloons flying at some point, there's a lot of people across europe that fly them and a few in the USA (although fewer of the USA ones on the spacenear.us tracker page)
[17:40] <ve6ts> i'm also trying a 10meter balloon beacon, but i will be launching from western Canada
[17:40] <blitz__> Great, Im only 90 miles from Rochester, near Buffalo.
[17:41] <blitz__> I watchwed one a few years ago, wound up in algeria.
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[17:43] <x-f> that was from the California Near-Space Project
[17:43] <blitz__> That Western Canada one should light up APRS pretty good, lotsa aprs stations stateside.
[17:43] <blitz__> Yeah seems I remember that now.
[17:43] <ve6ts> the 10m will not be on aprs, only morse code beacon for now
[17:44] <blitz__> too bad, seems a useful tool to trach baloons with.
[17:45] <ve6ts> my large balloons use aprs, my micro uses a comb of field-hell, rtty and morse code on wither 10m or 70cm
[17:45] <DL1SGP1> A quick good evening and good luck for whatever you are up to :)
[17:46] <eroomde> a good message from my friend
[17:46] <mfa298> some might suggest that the ukhas rtty method is better than aprs - although that might be because we've now got a big listener network.
[17:46] <eroomde> 'So I was going to be on the One Show tonight talking about toilets, but they've cancelled it because, and I quote, "Nelson Mandela's death is more important than the annual Loo of the Year Awards 2014".'
[17:46] <blitz__> heh, no comment. But i see similarities in the two sories.
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[17:52] <Laurenceb> "everyone is very sad over Mandelas death, accept Morgan Freeman, who is too busy signing the film deal"
[17:52] <Laurenceb> im going to hell for that :P
[17:53] <x-f> yes, that typo is horrible
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[18:39] <LeoBodnar> Ant news on N2NXZ?
[18:39] <es5nhc> Norwegian Blue?
[18:40] <LeoBodnar> pining for the fjords?
[18:40] <es5nhc> <Upu> I think we are calling it MIA
[18:41] <LeoBodnar> k
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[19:01] <fsphil> it's an ex-payload
[19:02] Nick change: ms7821_ -> ms7821
[19:02] <fsphil> worth a try though
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[19:12] <ve6ts> thats too bad it didn't make it
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[19:12] <ve6ts> well it just opens up for another attempt
[19:13] <fsphil> indeed
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[19:19] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:20] <ve6ts> jcoxon: evening to you, just hit afternoon for me
[19:20] <fsphil> evnin'
[19:21] <jcoxon> no more trans a?
[19:21] <ve6ts> i was at my launch site (AKA my cabin in the badlands) last weekend and there was almost 50cm of snow in some places, might get snowshoes for next time
[19:22] <ve6ts> and a sled for hawling gear
[19:22] <jcoxon> eek
[19:22] <jcoxon> i find it hard to tie knots when its cold
[19:22] <fsphil> that's awesome
[19:23] <ve6ts> a few weeks ago, i flew over it and got some photos from above, no human footprints at that time, i'm scared to know how much snow there is now, as it snowed i'm sure at least another 30cms
[19:24] <ve6ts> -23 outside (without the windchill) today
[19:25] <jcoxon> wow - can't complain about 5deg here
[19:25] <ve6ts> twas a cold walk to work today
[19:25] <ve6ts> with the windchill it takes us below -30C
[19:26] <ve6ts> the bad news is i've volunteering to run radio for the santa shuffle a 5 KM walk tomarrow (outside) it is suppost to be colder, i'm just hoping it won't be, i will be out in it for 4 hours
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[19:32] <fsphil> yeaaa we just don't get that here
[19:33] <fsphil> if -30C happened it would be a national emergency
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaeD3juIMAAF4Ek.jpg:large
[19:33] <es5nhc> Well, at -30°C even I here in ES would hunker down
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: I think it hit -18C here
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> a couple of years ago
[19:34] Action: SpeedEvil is starting ordering bits to install aircon properly.
[19:37] <ve6ts> we have been at -20ish for almost a week now, our proximity to the mountains means we do get nice weather in the winter (with the chinook winds) some times upto around +10C
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[19:38] <SpeedEvil> MOAR LAYERS.
[19:39] <ve6ts> i wonder if my hydroden in my tank has liqified :)
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[20:36] <anerDev> hello guys
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[20:46] <mclane> hi anerDev
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[21:05] <ve6ts> hey anerDev
[21:08] <ve6ts> has anyone tried rc hot air balloon?
[21:09] <ve6ts> i'm interested in trying it as short range
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[21:16] <SpeedEvil> Small hot air balloons suck.
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> Heat loss goes with area, lift goes with volume.
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[21:17] <SpeedEvil> A 1m balloon cools off 10* faster than a 10m one.
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[21:21] <ve6ts> hmm, i might try a airship design instead filled with lifting gas
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[21:22] <ve6ts> the only part i've not been able to do yet, is recieve a signal from a controller to active the control
[21:22] <ve6ts> all my designed balloons only transmit
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> http://shop.8devices.com/carambola :)
[21:26] <ve6ts> not bad
[21:26] <ve6ts> 1.5W
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> Not quite being serious - but it is neat
[21:27] <ve6ts> ya, i still want to try a wifi range test for ballooning, i'm fairely sure it will work upto over 1KM, but just how far more?
[21:29] <ve6ts> that unit would be great for a wireless homebrew weather station
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[21:35] <SpeedEvil> To a first order - your range increases by the diameter of your transmit dish - if the reciever is an omni.
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> So - 12*1 wavelength diameter (1.5 meters for wifi), 12* the distance
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> If you get about 100m to an omni, you now get 1.2km
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> 5ghz helps this a little
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> For homebrew weather stations, 1.5W is regrettibly a lot.
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> That is of the order of 15Wh of battery overnight, maybe as much as 20.
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> Something that can actually go to sleep, and wake up every 60s to take a reading and fire it over a low power 433 link can last years on that battery.
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[21:53] <mikestir> ve6ts: I've had success with wifi over a not quite line of sight path of well over 1km
[21:54] <mikestir> 10s of km is doable with a clear path, but there are other issues than signal strength to worry about
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> For 10s of km - it's basically utterly impractical with an omni on one end
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[21:55] <SpeedEvil> For several km, you can probably get away with it.
[21:58] <mikestir> yeah sure - the stuff I've done was directional on both ends, which is obviously no good for HAB
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[21:59] <SpeedEvil> Wellll...
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> You can fake it sort of
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> Light somewhat directional antennas or corner cubes are really light at 2.4
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> Made from foil
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> Now, eight of http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150Mb-Mini-Nano-Tiny-USB-Wireless-WiFi-Lan-11-N-Internet-Network-Adapter-Dongle-/360674283998?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item53f9dcd1de and a tiny hub
[22:00] <mfa298> you could have something fairly directional pointing down, but then you'd need to keep up with the balloon
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> Some software to do 'listen every minute on all sides, and set route to strongest direction'
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> (also using a gyro)
[22:01] <mikestir> I think it would also be hard to achieve while remaining legal, since the power limits for WLAN are defined as EIRP
[22:01] <mfa298> for similar cost you can get something similar with an rp-sma on it.
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[22:02] <mfa298> plus for airborne I think you're only legal for 10mW (the wifi bit of ir2030 doesn't specify it allows airborne).
[22:04] <mfa298> I'm thinking of trying one of www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280914854707 on a HAB with something similar on the ground with a higher gain antenna.
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[22:05] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about the refractive index of helium WRT air at 2.4GHz
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> Probably the wrong way round.
[22:07] <mikestir> ir2030 does seem to allow airborne use at 2.4GHz for the full 100mW
[22:07] <mikestir> assuming wifi is covered by the "Wideband Data Transmission Systems" bit
[22:10] Nick change: MichaelC1 -> MichaelC
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[22:11] <mfa298> interesting. I thought when I looked there was no mention of airborne use which means it's not permitted.
[22:13] <mfa298> Ah, my printed version looks to be an older version (2008 rather than 2011)
[22:13] <mikestir> I must admit the whole WLAN/general SRD thing leaves me confused - e.g. why does 802.15.4 (such as ZigBee) only get to run 10mW as a general SRD when it's clearly a (fairly) wideband data transmission system
[22:14] <mikestir> I guess it must be defined properly in the relevant european spec
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[22:24] <arko> http://dangerousprototypes.com/2013/12/06/nooelec-rtl-sdr-giveaway-at-amateurradio-com/
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[22:29] <craag> Just set up the 70cm websdr :)
[22:29] <craag> http://websdr.suws.org.uk/
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[22:33] <jcoxon> evening all
[22:33] <arko> :P
[22:33] <arko> mornin
[22:33] <arko> er
[22:33] <arko> evening
[22:33] <jcoxon> haha
[22:33] <arko> i need coffee
[22:34] <jcoxon> hmmm any launches this weekend?
[22:37] <craag> Doesn't look like it :(
[22:38] <mfa298> craag: looks like you need Dave to launch so you can test it
[22:38] <craag> mfa298: :D
[22:38] <craag> Yes..
[22:38] Action: jcoxon is hacking dl-fldigi
[22:39] <craag> 70cm needs a decent filter on it though.. upu will be getting an order soon!
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[22:40] <mfa298> errr, yes I can see what you mean.
[22:41] <craag> no.. now is not too bad, wait until the BR repeater at aldermaston kicks up.
[22:41] <craag> knackers the entire channel
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[22:42] <mfa298> that sounded a bit like a repeater breaking through
[22:43] <craag> There's also unfortunately GB3ET, a 70cm repeater at the site, which keys it's callsign every 10 minutes.
[22:43] <craag> It turns out putting a wideband rx on top of a hill is not always the best idea.
[22:43] <craag> But hopefully the habamp will help a little
[22:44] <mfa298> I think it was ET I just heard - I knew it was fairly local, I hadnt realised it was the same site - assuming the sdr is where I'm guessing it is
[22:45] <craag> that was ET
[22:45] <mfa298> I think that's what I heard just now - possibly with a bit of voice just before
[22:46] <craag> Someone fly something! I wanna test my new toy!
[22:46] <DL1SGP> heh craag
[22:46] <mfa298> should make the likes of arko happy, he'll be able to track rtty payloads which aren't his own.
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[22:47] <craag> :)
[22:47] <arko> what what?
[22:47] <craag> arko: http://websdr.suws.org.uk/
[22:47] <craag> your own 434MHz rx in the UK :)
[22:48] <mfa298> you might
[22:48] <arko> :D
[22:48] <arko> yay
[22:48] <arko> i can feel apart of something :P
[22:48] <mfa298> you might need to check the all bands box
[22:48] <arko> sweet, thanks
[22:48] <craag> The input is rather overloaded at the moment, but we're working on mitigating that.
[22:48] <mfa298> ah, or use the 70cm option further down I hadn't seen before
[22:49] <mfa298> a notch on the o/p for ET might be worth it, but you'de want it to be fairly tight
[22:50] <craag> mm, not really in the budget right now unfortunately.
[22:51] <mfa298> as in on the sdr rx antenna but for the ET o/p frequency.
[22:51] <craag> yep
[22:51] <craag> Even BN at bracknell causes some intermod
[22:51] <Upu> I did a prototype 2 meter habamp craag : http://i.imgur.com/e6Rvkw7.jpg
[22:51] <Upu> gone to Darkside for VNA testing
[22:52] <craag> Upu: We might be interested in one of those too :P
[22:52] <craag> It should have 2m running, but it seems the motherboard only has one root USB port, so not enough bandwidth.
[22:52] <Upu> tbh can make one in any frequency 0.1-3Ghz probably
[22:52] <craag> (not enough for 3x dongles)
[22:53] <craag> hmm
[22:53] <Upu> yeah 3 dongle is pushing it
[22:53] <craag> We'll try with a USB PCI card, maybe next week.
[22:54] <mfa298> I was just going to say I might have a pci usb2 card lying around needing a good use.
[22:54] <craag> Might be interested in one for 1296MHz if we can't scrounge up a filter.
[22:55] <Upu> whats that for ?
[22:56] <craag> 23cm SSB band
[22:56] <Upu> what bandwidth ?
[22:57] <craag> Needs to cover 1295.6 - 1297.6 (2MHz)
[22:58] <Upu> http://www.taisaw.com/upload/product/TA0536A%20_Rev.1.0_.pdf
[22:59] <Upu> http://www.golledge.com/pdf/products/specs/mp03271.pdf
[23:00] <craag> First one looks pretty good, I'm not sure there's too much down the lower end.
[23:00] <craag> I'll pass them on to Noel and see what he thinks, thanks!
[23:01] <Upu> http://www.golledge.com/pdf/products/saw/gsrf.pdf
[23:01] <Upu> however ever time I give them a spec they give me something thats way better back
[23:01] <Upu> that 2 meter filter is only 1.5db insertion loss
[23:01] <craag> wow
[23:01] <Upu> the one KT5TK was using is about 10
[23:01] <craag> what bw?
[23:01] <Upu> checking
[23:02] <craag> yeah.. they're usually not great for VHF due to the loss
[23:02] <Upu> 6Mhz centered on 145Mhz
[23:02] <arko> no launches this weekend?
[23:03] <craag> Upu: Awesome :)
[23:03] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/PDFS/mp01901.pdf
[23:03] <craag> Ok, we'll be in touch.. but you'll certainly be getting an order for the 70cm one soon.
[23:03] <Upu> ok use the discount code, i can't give it away but happy to help
[23:04] <Upu> do you want it "naked" or in a box ?
[23:04] <craag> in a box would be ideal
[23:04] <Upu> yeah use the discount code :)
[23:04] <craag> Also I notice the reg is only rated to 10V input, is that right?
[23:04] <craag> THanks!
[23:04] <Upu> that is correct and something I might address on the next version
[23:04] <Upu> blame Darkside :)
[23:05] <craag> Heh ok, I'll go stock up on some 7805s :)
[23:05] <Upu> I know it should be at least 13.8v so you could use it in the car
[23:06] <craag> for cars it should really be able to handle 14.5V (that's what mine puts out while running)
[23:06] <craag> but 12/13.8V for shack use would be good
[23:08] <heathkid> Upu... received the LEA-6T board today
[23:08] <DL1SGP> get some heatsinks for the 7805 as well if you plan to torture them, they can get pretty warm if supplied internal car voltage
[23:08] <Upu> wow that took a while :/
[23:08] <heathkid> :) I'm just happy I got it
[23:08] <Upu> me too, I need to make another one now
[23:08] <heathkid> :)
[23:09] <craag> DL1SGP: I usually just bolt them to the inside of the box with a bit of compound
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[23:10] <heathkid> is there 10mhz out anywhere on there? or just the 1pps?
[23:11] <Upu> either of the PPS or PPS2 output can be set to 10Mhz
[23:11] <Upu> PPS2 defaults to it
[23:11] <Upu> PPS you can turn it up to 10Mhz using uCenter
[23:11] <Upu> default is 1hz
[23:11] <heathkid> ah
[23:11] <heathkid> nice!
[23:12] <heathkid> yea, uCenter is a bit more than a little confusing.
[23:12] <heathkid> so many options to configure it's NOT funny!
[23:12] <Upu> you get used to it
[23:12] <DL1SGP> craag: sounds good :) altoids box?
[23:13] <heathkid> so PPS is 1hz and PPS2 is 10Mhz?
[23:13] <Upu> out of the box on the 6T yes
[23:14] <heathkid> :)
[23:14] <heathkid> sweet
[23:14] <Upu> but you can set either to anything you want
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[23:16] <heathkid> have you seen this? http://www.g4jnt.com/SimpleGPSDO.pdf
[23:16] <heathkid> I'm wanting to do a version based on the 6T and a 10Mhz DOCXO
[23:17] <Upu> yes James Miller has done one too
[23:17] <heathkid> really?
[23:17] <Upu> http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd.htm
[23:18] <Upu> http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd0.htm
[23:18] <Upu> right I'm up early so night all
[23:19] <heathkid> yep... those are all based on the Rockwell/Conexant/Navman Jupiter GPS engines
[23:19] <heathkid> 10khz
[23:19] <heathkid> ok.. good night Upu
[23:19] <heathkid> thanks for the links
[23:19] <heathkid> and info
[23:19] <heathkid> etc.
[23:19] <heathkid> good night
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[23:26] <heathkid> only major difference is I *also* want to add a "clock" output using 7-segment displays... to ms resolution
[23:26] <heathkid> yes I realize the last digit will be constantly lit
[23:27] <heathkid> but the 1/10th of a second would cycle through at 10hz and "should" be able to be seen changing
[23:27] <heathkid> well... so not really ms resolutin
[23:27] <heathkid> resolution
[23:28] <heathkid> I guess it would actually be displaying down to the centisecond
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[23:29] <heathkid> or more precisely... 1.66 centiseconds for the last digit
[23:30] Action: heathkid thinks so?
[23:30] <heathkid> not sure
[23:30] <heathkid> haven't seen a design for a clock with two more segments after the second
[23:31] <heathkid> and I guess it wouldn't be 1/10 of a second anyway
[23:31] <heathkid> digits 7 and 8 would be 1/6 of a second and 1/60 of a second
[23:32] <heathkid> right?
[23:32] <heathkid> of course nixie tubes would be even better!!!
[23:32] <heathkid> :)
[23:33] <heathkid> then I'll send it up in a balloon for a time experiment (to keep it on topic) :P
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[23:58] <jcoxon> damn dl-fldigi
[23:58] <jcoxon> and damn fltk
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[00:00] --- Sat Dec 7 2013