highaltitude.log.20131116

[00:00] <bambi> OK Thank you
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[00:03] <fsphil> wonder if they're sending these large images for the entire flight
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[00:05] <arko> i want to go to Wagga Wagga, OZ
[00:05] <arko> just because it has a cool name
[00:06] <VK5RM> not too sure not sure where rec station is shud be better when aloft
[00:07] <VK5RM> sri typo keyboard 1/2 meter away
[00:07] <bambi> hoe about Woolloongabba a suburb of Brisbane - just 7km from me or Coorparoo even closer :)
[00:07] <fsphil> there's an area in sydney called woolloomooloo
[00:08] <VK5RM> Im in North Lakes atm
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[00:10] <fsphil> http://www.bienalto.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/image003.png
[00:11] <VK5RM> very good like that
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[00:13] <fsphil> red balloon?
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[00:14] <bambi> fsphil> cool image :)
[00:14] <fsphil> there's a nice bar there. make nice burgers
[00:15] <bambi> I like 'Doyles on The Beach' at Watson's Bay when I visit Sydney - nice city distant views at night
[00:16] <fsphil> yea it's a lovely city when viewed from a distance
[00:17] <VK5RM> new image http://ssdv.habhub.org/PSBPI
[00:17] <arko> woah red
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[00:18] <fsphil> and a human
[00:21] <VK5RM> red balloons go higher
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander__> xD!
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[00:24] <arko> put flames on it to make it get there faster
[00:24] <arko> and if it's H2 a match will do
[00:25] <fsphil> put it in some kind of ridid structure
[00:25] <fsphil> rigid
[00:26] <fsphil> maybe with a nozzle on the bottom to direct the force
[00:26] <fsphil> hey we could be on to something here
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander__> xD
[00:26] <arko> hahaha
[00:26] <arko> man i want to leave work early today
[00:26] <arko> so slow
[00:27] <arko> finished all my work 30 mins ago.. to start something else would just be crazy
[00:27] <VK5RM> on aprs http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=9&lat=-37.9000&lng=144.9667&timerange=3600&tail=3600
[00:28] <fsphil> they've launched
[00:29] <fsphil> that balloon doesn't look very big
[00:29] <arko> floater?
[00:31] <fsphil> ground pictures take so long to transmit
[00:31] <arko> yeah
[00:32] <arko> is this rtty?
[00:32] <fsphil> yep
[00:32] <nats`> there is a problem with B29
[00:33] <fsphil> yea someone keeps replaying old data
[00:34] <bambi> details about PSB can be found here http://projectspaceballoon.net/
[00:34] <fsphil> I'm suppose to be asleep. silly timezones
[00:36] <VK5RM> balloon info http://projectspaceballoon.net/
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[00:48] <fsphil> hmm, image data stopped
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[00:48] <DL7AD> good morning
[00:49] <bambi> <DL7AD> > Greetings
[00:50] <DL7AD> aprs-relay station is working :) http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=10&call=a%2FDB0LDS&timerange=3600&tail=3600
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[00:52] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq90dWrFEiQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUHq-5fr8fGEsntnNDdJ_ohQ
[00:54] <fsphil> ah, new images
[00:57] <fsphil> hmm,, altitude on spacenear has gone down
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[01:02] <fsphil> fields
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[01:02] <fsphil> weird seeing green fields in australia
[01:03] <Laurenceb_> heh
[01:03] <Laurenceb_> it doesnt look too bad
[01:03] <Laurenceb_> almost wet
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[01:04] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay-class_fast_patrol_boat
[01:06] <DL1SGP> either my eyes are tired or they have launched a geostationary HAB, the volage and temp is updating however altitude and position remains same
[01:06] <DL1SGP> ... or they lost gps fix :)
[01:07] <bambi> yes <Temperature, 53.3 °C> is a bit of a worry...
[01:08] <arko> yikes
[01:08] <bambi> sensor in the direct sun ???
[01:08] <DL1SGP> there was alot of sun there
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[01:09] <DL1SGP> over here it is totally foggy at sub-zero temperature right now yikes
[01:09] <DL1SGP> and for some odd reason I should be asleep lol
[01:11] <fsphil> virtual jetlag
[01:11] <bambi> 27.2C in my room window opem in Brisbane
[01:12] <fsphil> where you not in queensland before?
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[01:14] <DL1SGP> temperature still going up...
[01:16] <fsphil> latest picture still below the clouds
[01:16] <DL1SGP> no smoke seen :)
[01:17] <DL1SGP> I remember the SP3OSJ flight which went down somewhere on its way to Bornholm... we were worried about some funny 43c or so
[01:17] <Lunar_Lander__> XD Smoking Socks
[01:17] <bambi> eek ! computer issues I have to reboot brb...
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> http://energy.concord.org/energy2d/thermal-conductivity.html
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> On the topic of things that are too hot
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[01:18] <SpeedEvil> Interesting 2D thermal transfer app that does 2d heat mofeling
[01:18] <DL1SGP> it starts cooling down now
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[01:25] <DL1SGP> well time for bed, back in roughly 5h30 for a brief check on situation :) goodnight
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[02:37] <vk4tec> two seperate ballons over VIC ?
[02:46] <vk3ohm> I thought it was a single balloon, tx on UHF and HF, but the telemetry indicates 2 balloons
[02:53] <Darkside> its a single balloon
[02:53] <Darkside> with 2 payloads
[02:53] <Darkside> the telemetry won't update at the same time, so the payloads will appears to diverge
[02:54] <Darkside> and there arent many updates being pushed through from either payload
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[03:10] <vk3ohm> There are two flight path predictions which confuses things
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[03:18] <vk3xor> quit
[03:18] <vk3xor> exit
[03:18] <vk3xor> bye
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[06:56] <tjanos> Big lanches.. Prof. TS Kelso start with this words his analysis, first about the 21. nov Dnepr launches: http://celestrak.com/events/dnepr.asp
[06:57] <tjanos> *launches
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[07:32] <SP9UOB-Tom> morning!
[07:32] <SP9UOB-Tom> what is the frequency of PSB HF ?
[07:32] <Darkside> its landed
[07:33] <Darkside> hours ago
[07:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> ...Im assuming that it is working on HF :-)
[07:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> Darkside: oh...
[07:33] <Darkside> it workd, but the gps had problems
[07:34] <SP9UOB-Tom> im planning to launch 21 MHz in december
[07:34] <SP9UOB-Tom> hope to float
[07:34] <Darkside> launch 20m
[07:34] <Darkside> not 15m
[07:34] <SP9UOB-Tom> why?
[07:35] <Darkside> better clos-in coverage
[07:35] <Darkside> remember you want to be heard by pople in europe
[07:35] <Darkside> not just DX
[07:35] <Darkside> with 15m you may have troubl with that
[07:35] <SP9UOB-Tom> i've done some tests and fsphil reveived me :-)
[07:35] <Darkside> sure, at on eparticular point in th day
[07:35] <SP9UOB-Tom> with 300 mW out
[07:36] <Darkside> i'd way 20m is going to be a better 'all rounder' band
[07:36] <SP9UOB-Tom> yes,
[07:36] <SP9UOB-Tom> i can retune TX to 20m no problem
[07:36] <Darkside> mm
[07:36] <Darkside> i'd say 20m is going to be a better option
[07:36] <tjanos> Stratocaching web cams: http://stratocaching.idnes.cz/
[07:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> ...and turn on APRS also :-)
[07:37] <Darkside> you could do 20m APRS :-)
[07:37] <Darkside> might need more than 300mW for that
[07:39] <SP9UOB-Tom> Darkside: yes, i have my code ready, also for wspr
[07:39] <Darkside> cool
[07:39] <Darkside> you need to be damn sure your transmitter dosnt drift for both of those
[07:39] <Darkside> WSPR in particular
[07:40] <Darkside> JT65 may b a better option instead of WSPR
[07:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> Darkside: it is driven with good 125 MHz TCXO and GPS locked
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[07:40] <Darkside> wider tone spacing, will handle a few Hz drift OK
[07:40] <Darkside> SP9UOB-Tom: wat
[07:40] <Darkside> how big is this payload
[07:41] <Darkside> that sounds pretty complex
[07:41] <Darkside> anyway, the JT65 flight tday workd OK
[07:41] <Darkside> damn slow
[07:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> Darkside: https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1380420_769819639710467_922962278_n.jpg
[07:41] <Darkside> THOR4 worked just as well
[07:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> evweryhing is done in code :-)
[07:41] <Darkside> yes
[07:42] <Darkside> so you could do THOR4
[07:42] <SP9UOB-Tom> got the photo?
[07:42] <Darkside> yes
[07:42] <Darkside> AD9851
[07:42] <SP9UOB-Tom> this is my developmend board
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[07:43] <SP9UOB-Tom> yes, im using internal comparator to get the square wave at output, an im driving class-E PA on BD170 MOSFET
[07:44] <SP9UOB-Tom> on 20m it is more efficient
[07:44] <Darkside> cool
[07:44] <Darkside> i've got a board that does the sam, using an AD9834
[07:44] <Darkside> built it ags ago
[07:45] <SP9UOB-Tom> ok, its time for brekfast - beacon smells awesome :-) BBL
[07:46] <Darkside> SP9UOB-Tom: http://imgur.com/a/hipPQ
[07:46] <UT3BW> tjanos please tx frec
[07:51] <tjanos> here is the announcement: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ukhas/nXMesq_uKRI
[07:51] <tjanos> Callsign: OK1OMX - UKHAS RTTY 300Bd, 7N2, 450 Hz shift, freq 437.650 MHz, SSB/USB OK1OMX-11 - APRS, freq 144.8 MHz
[07:51] <tjanos> Seed1 - UKHAS RTTY 300Bd, 7N2, 450 Hz shift, freq 437.670 MHz, SSB/USB Seed2 - UKHAS RTTY 300Bd, 7N2, 450 Hz shift, freq 437.690 MHz, SSB/USB
[07:54] <UT3BW> ahoj
[07:54] <UT3BW> tnx gl
[07:58] <tjanos> some pictures: http://technet.idnes.cz/starujeme-stratocashing-miri-do-stratosfery-fa1-/online.aspx?online=1005412
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[08:04] <DL1SGP1> good morning
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[08:07] <Reb-SM3ULC> morrn
[08:08] <DL1SGP1> hi Reb-SM3ULC hope you gonna have a great weekend
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[08:14] <SP9UOB-Tom> Darkside: nice
[08:15] <SP9UOB-Tom> i have to considet 20m
[08:15] <SP9UOB-Tom> i have to consider 20m
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[08:46] <ibanezmatt13> If I cut the connector off a 12v PSU you plug into the wall, the two wires that I'll see will be the +12v and GND wires right? So, would it be safe to shove that straight into my breadboard or do I need some sort of protection circuit?
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[09:10] <DL7AD> good morning
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[09:15] <DL1SGP1> Moin Sven
[09:15] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
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[09:26] <tjanos> Dropion/OK1OMX is flying: http://technet.idnes.cz/starujeme-stratocashing-miri-do-stratosfery-fa1-/online.aspx
[09:27] <mclane> cool!
[09:28] <tjanos> its better link: http://technet.idnes.cz/starujeme-stratocashing-miri-do-stratosfery-fa1-/online.aspx?online=1005412
[09:28] <SP9UOB-Tom> soon in my range
[09:28] <tjanos> webcams: http://stratocaching.idnes.cz/
[09:30] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ_AFK -> Steve_G0TDJ
[09:30] <Steve_G0TDJ> Morning
[09:30] <mclane> are the seeds not transmitting?
[09:31] <tjanos> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/17717_trj001.gif
[09:31] <tjanos> only two do it: Seed1 - UKHAS RTTY 300Bd, 7N2, 450 Hz shift, freq 437.670 MHz, SSB/USB Seed2 - UKHAS RTTY 300Bd, 7N2, 450 Hz shift, freq 437.690 MHz, SSB/USB
[09:32] <Darkside> then how are people expecting to find the rest?
[09:32] <mclane> yea, but I do not see them updated in spacenear?
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[09:36] <SP9UOB-Tom> Darkside: by accident ;-)
[09:36] <tjanos> They send coordinats with gsm/sms to dedicated phones, and will put on the map for geocaching people
[09:36] <SP9UOB-Tom> ahh..
[09:36] <Darkside> assuming GSM works
[09:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> the payload is really huge
[09:38] <tjanos> Or this is the part of the game: based on not correct coordinats find the seeds
[09:38] <Darkside> which will likely involve hundreds of geocachers traipsing across private land
[09:38] <Darkside> because the chances are that thy will land in private property
[09:39] <tjanos> Yes, it is big payload, and if I know well, they have permission to fly only in Czehaland
[09:40] <tjanos> There are min two interesting quesrions: when started the seeds rotate, how will functioning the antenna, transmit
[09:41] <mclane> I can hear the balloon already, but no decode yet
[09:41] <tjanos> - how big will be the teritory, where the seeds will spread
[09:44] <SP9UOB-Tom> $$OK1OMX,933,09:44:16,49.953053,14.330471,07531,028,1.41,5.5,10*5530
[09:46] <DL1SGP> good morning Darkside, tjanos, mclane and SP9UOB-Tom
[09:47] <x-f> good morning
[09:47] <DL1SGP> hi x-f
[09:47] <tjanos> There is a camera on board, and live video from it. But I didnot find link, where can see it. On this page on the second cam you can see on the display it on the wall
[09:47] <tjanos> http://technet.idnes.cz/starujeme-stratocashing-miri-do-stratosfery-fa1-/online.aspx?online=1005412
[09:48] <mclane> hi DL1SGP
[09:50] <x-f> at what altitude will they release the seeds?
[09:52] <DL1SGP> the email does not tell about that hmm possibly remote triggered?
[09:55] <tjanos> I havenot shure informations,but it was plan to allow it about 30 000 m. But it seems, on this alitude there are strong wind to west. Maybe they dont want to put the seed in Austria or Germany
[09:56] <tjanos> *seeds
[09:56] <DL1SGP> according to the email that was sent the plan was to stay within czech boundaries, we will see
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[09:58] <tjanos> I think, we can calculate the radius of the territory, what the seed will "occupy" conmparable as the altitude, approx 20 km
[09:59] <mclane> OK1OMX frequency is drifting strongly
[09:59] <DL1SGP> hey that look on the aircraft with chemtrail was cool
[10:00] <mclane> now I see it at 437.643 MHz
[10:01] <mclane> first green decode
[10:01] <DL1SGP> danke mclane
[10:04] <mclane> something is wrong with OK1OMX: gps height is not changing
[10:04] <DL1SGP> does it put out roughly 3s dahs by times mclane? I have a faint trace of a drifty signal here
[10:05] <mclane> there are some seconds of rtty followed by morse
[10:05] <DL1SGP> ok could be partial rtty it is really weak, but looking at the fact that I am near Hannover that is acceptable lol
[10:06] <mclane> yea, I am only 180 km away ;-)
[10:08] <tjanos> it seems, on the arps.fi the altitude is correct from the seed, 16917 m
[10:08] <mclane> OK1OMX gps hangs - I know that story; we had that in PYSY4
[10:09] <DL1SGP> yes it is the rtty bursts that I am picking up here
[10:10] <DJ3AK> nw Seed2 decodes fine here: filter BW 300 Hz for RTTY modem
[10:10] <DL1SGP> Guten Morgen Nachbar :D
[10:11] <mclane> I switched to seed2
[10:11] <mclane> 437.688 MHz
[10:12] <x-f> seed2 isn't updating on snus? or that's just for me?
[10:13] <DJ3AK> 437.687 USB 1200Hz/1650 Hz here drifting here
[10:13] <DJ3AK> hallo Nachbar :-))
[10:14] <mclane> seed2 gps also seesm to be stuck
[10:15] <mclane> trying seed1 now
[10:17] <x-f> i hope they are not relying only on Dropion's GPS then :/
[10:17] <DL1SGP> another aircraft seen woot
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[10:18] <x-f> it is making a turn
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[10:18] <DL1SGP> yeah and having a chemtrail
[10:18] <x-f> could it be that aircraft was redirected away?
[10:19] <x-f> it's not chemtrail, DL1SGP, relax :)
[10:19] <DL1SGP> :P just joking you know
[10:19] <x-f> suuuuure :>
[10:20] <Reb-SM3ULC> Cool, HAB-day :)
[10:20] <DL1SGP> we should offer some chemtail conspiracy folks to insert instrument for them into a chemtrail by using ballons
[10:21] <x-f> that would require some serious aiming for the balloon and the aircraft
[10:22] <x-f> besides, "it was all staged, they wouldn't release any chemicals knowing we are going to inspect the trail!"
[10:24] <tjanos> there was a plat to follow it with a helocopter
[10:24] <DL1SGP> shhh as long as they pay for the helium
[10:24] <tjanos> plan
[10:24] <x-f> seed1 battery is quite low
[10:25] <tjanos> in the early hours there was an option on the webcam page, to choose the live video from the helocipter. but is seems, ther dfropped this option
[10:26] <x-f> 5 km to go
[10:26] <x-f> DL1SGP, got any signal?
[10:27] <DL1SGP> yeah but it is drifting bad
[10:27] <PE2G> First few greens from Seed2
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[10:29] <DL1SGP> goedenmorgen where do you have SEED2 right now PE2G?
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[10:30] <mclane> seed2 is at 437.6898
[10:30] <DL1SGP> just found it but thanks
[10:30] <PE2G> 437.689.5
[10:30] <mclane> but gps hangs...
[10:30] <PE2G> drifting
[10:31] <x-f> another plane
[10:31] <PE2G> RTTY alternating with morse
[10:32] <PE2G> 437.690.1
[10:32] <mclane> seed1 is very faint here and not decodable
[10:32] <DL1SGP> yeap the drift is killing my decodes
[10:32] <PE2G> Difficult indeed
[10:33] <DL1SGP> well I gonna rotate the log periodic a but and will see if that works better after I did some wire work on it a few days ago. the balloon will be a fine test subject
[10:34] <mclane> what is the polarization of the seeds?
[10:34] <PE2G> Morse on 437.690.1, after the morse RTTY drifting up fast
[10:34] <x-f> 28km
[10:35] <PE2G> mclane: I think they're vertical
[10:36] <mclane> I try to understand why the seed1 signal is fading quite strongly where seed 2 is constant
[10:36] <PE2G> Seed2 had bad fading here too
[10:36] <PE2G> has bad
[10:36] <x-f> video stopped?
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[10:37] <nats`> hi
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[10:39] <x-f> over 30 km
[10:39] <mclane> yea
[10:39] <x-f> hi, nats`
[10:39] <nats`> what are ou chasing in deuschland ?
[10:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> seed releases ?
[10:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> seed released ?
[10:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> i can hear its spinning very fast
[10:40] <x-f> nats`, Stratocaching in Czech Republic - http://stratocaching.idnes.cz/
[10:40] <x-f> yep, coming down
[10:41] <PE2G> Morse becoming weak here
[10:41] <DL1SGP> nice burst
[10:41] <x-f> woo, video restarted
[10:41] <DL1SGP> sweet colorful chute
[10:42] <mclane> I guess the ballon has burts, no release?
[10:42] <es5nhc> Seed1 is reporting descent
[10:42] <x-f> not sure, seed1 is falling with -29 m/s at 27 km altitude, that is slooow
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[10:44] <tjanos> Dámy a pánové, práv mo~ete v pYímém pYenosu sledovat zábry ze stratosféry. Semínka (Stratocache práv opustila gondolu a padají na Ze: Ladies and gentlemen, now you can watch live footage from the stratosphere. Seeds (Stratocache) just left the gondola and fall to the ground.
[10:45] <x-f> i think they have been released, 3kg payload with 72" chute would fall faster
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[10:46] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FOK1OMX-11&timerange=3600&tail=3600
[10:46] <SP9UOB-Tom> aprs is reporting ok
[10:47] <PE2G> Faint traces. 15 successful decodes according to the stats, which is more than I thought
[10:47] <LeoBodnar> morning *
[10:48] <DL1SGP> good morning LeoBodnar
[10:48] <bertrik> good morning
[10:48] <SP9UOB-Tom> morning Leo
[10:49] <LeoBodnar> Tom, what path are you using for APRS, WIDE2-1?
[10:50] <malgar> live images? how do they transmit at such an high rate?
[10:50] <es5nhc> ditto
[10:51] <x-f> 5GHz and not an amateur system, if i understood Radim correctly
[10:51] <es5nhc> Surprised too
[10:51] <es5nhc> aha
[10:51] <x-f> woo, seeds are released, altitudes at the same time don't match
[10:54] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: my path depends of altitude
[10:54] <SP9UOB-Tom> wait
[10:55] <SP9UOB-Tom> over 2500m i do not transmit path at all
[10:55] <SP9UOB-Tom> below there is WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2
[10:55] <tjanos> It seems, all the seeds landed:...: All seeds (Stratokeaky) has successfully embarked on a journey to the ground."
[10:56] <es5nhc> tjanos - I think it means they have begun descending
[10:56] <es5nhc> embark - start the journey
[10:57] <x-f> they are 5 km higher than Dropion
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[10:57] <x-f> well, seed1 at least
[10:57] <LeoBodnar> Thanks Tom
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[11:00] <tjanos> Ok, sry, I put here the google translate automatically
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[11:01] <x-f> both trackers on one map - http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=10&call=a%2FOK1OMX-11%2Ca%2FHB-Seed1&timerange=21600&tail=21600
[11:03] <LeoBodnar> You haven't been flying for awhile Tom?
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[11:06] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: no, there is some legal issue with pico extemption, so i have to drive to Czech Republic or Slovakia or postpone launch
[11:07] <LeoBodnar> oh, I see
[11:07] <x-f> :(
[11:07] <LeoBodnar> Are you back to latex ones then?
[11:07] <SP9UOB-Tom> im working on hf payload which be regular Latex with notam
[11:08] <SP9UOB-Tom> yes
[11:08] <LeoBodnar> Cool, I want to go back to HF as well
[11:08] <SP9UOB-Tom> anyway - does your si446x / domino causes that horrible splatter on the band ?
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[11:09] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: i have to turn off tx to retune DDS, and turn it on again which causes splattering
[11:09] <LeoBodnar> when nearby there is some, yes
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[11:09] <SP9UOB-Tom> i see...
[11:10] <LeoBodnar> It's not designed for live freq change :(
[11:10] <LeoBodnar> unlike Si4032
[11:10] <SP9UOB-Tom> but it has possibility to upload firmware patches... :-)
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[11:11] <LeoBodnar> yes, it has some clever stuff running inside, the question is how to take control of it
[11:11] <LeoBodnar> lots of undocumented commands and paramteres
[11:11] <LeoBodnar> And I also need to move to C maybe, the project becomes a bit hairy
[11:12] <SP9UOB-Tom> im guessing that they wont told anything without NDA :-(
[11:12] <LeoBodnar> I think they won't tell anything even with NDA :D
[11:12] <SP9UOB-Tom> You are not writting in C? assembler?
[11:12] <LeoBodnar> yeah PIC24 assembler
[11:13] <SP9UOB-Tom> oh, with that large project... respect :)
[11:13] <LeoBodnar> I can't even ask for help as there is almost nobody else there to ask
[11:13] <LeoBodnar> anyway, coffee time
[11:13] <SP9UOB-Tom> CU
[11:14] <LeoBodnar> cheers :D
[11:14] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[11:14] <LeoBodnar> oh what happened to PSB? Payload separated?
[11:14] <DL1SGP> burst
[11:14] <DL1SGP> and recovered
[11:15] <LeoBodnar> cool, I envy recovered payloads
[11:15] <DL1SGP> I think that was the better way to go for them looking at the GPS issues they had
[11:16] <DL1SGP> good way to check on stuff and possibly refly
[11:16] <LeoBodnar> So HF is down as well?
[11:16] <DL1SGP> yes, afaik it was all on one balloon
[11:16] <DL1SGP> there is a picture of the balloon on the ssdv page Leo
[11:16] <DL1SGP> did not look very floaty to me :)
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[11:21] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: i have bought
[11:21] <SP9UOB-Tom> new scales
[11:21] <LeoBodnar> ah! :D
[11:22] <SP9UOB-Tom> and the payload is about 2 times heavier than Yours : http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pliki/picov3a.jpg
[11:22] <LeoBodnar> lol it's just a few grams heavier
[11:23] <LeoBodnar> just PCB itself
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[11:23] <LeoBodnar> You should be able to make 15g payload with AAA
[11:23] <LeoBodnar> or 21g with AA
[11:24] <LeoBodnar> somewhere there
[11:24] <SP9UOB-Tom> i have about 20 gram with AA
[11:24] <x-f> Dropion has landed
[11:24] <Willdude123> I immediately thought anti-aircraft when you said AA :)
[11:25] <SP9UOB-Tom> wait im going to taka a picture
[11:25] <SP9UOB-Tom> take
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[11:26] <LeoBodnar> holy cow this dropion is massive! http://technet.idnes.cz/foto.aspx?r=tec_vesmir&c=A131114_124509_tec_vesmir_kuz&foto=VEN4f43f5_105231_551234.jpg
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[11:27] <LeoBodnar> It's like the size of a small child
[11:27] <LeoBodnar> I thought its a foot high max
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[11:28] <SP9UOB-Tom> actually its littlebit over 23g with "case" and antenna
[11:30] <LeoBodnar> AA?
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[11:35] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: what is isobutane's latent heat?
[11:35] <LeoBodnar> and good morning at that!
[11:35] <Laurenceb_> hi
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> i think i know by B-29 burst when B11/B-12 did not
[11:36] <LeoBodnar> low sun angle?
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> it was cruising considerable lower
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> so more delta P for the same free lift
[11:36] <LeoBodnar> should be same pressure altitude
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> was the mass the same?
[11:37] <LeoBodnar> I think it's a dodgy batch
[11:37] <Laurenceb_> ok
[11:37] <Laurenceb_> we need a way to make mylar envelopes
[11:37] <LeoBodnar> I had a valve blowout over Ladoga lake in Russia
[11:37] <Laurenceb_> for isobutane, try wolfram alpha
[11:37] <Laurenceb_> oh
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[11:37] <Laurenceb_> was it recovered?
[11:37] <LeoBodnar> yes, same weight as B-11
[11:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> i had to reboot
[11:37] <Laurenceb_> i see
[11:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pliki/IMG_0717.JPG
[11:37] <LeoBodnar> extra 1g free lift
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[11:38] <LeoBodnar> How long the drive to Czech Republic or Slovakia Tom ? :D
[11:39] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: less than hour
[11:39] <LeoBodnar> You can make it by the sunset
[11:39] <LeoBodnar> :D
[11:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> UK folks, can You give me link to Your PICO extemption regulation ?
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[11:42] <SpeedEvil> http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf search 'under 2m'
[11:44] <SP9UOB-Tom> SpeedEvil: thank You
[11:47] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: Does 366 J/g sound reasonable?
[11:49] <LeoBodnar> I think with balloon foil I can make reasonable butane pouch
[11:49] <Laurenceb_> yes
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[11:50] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> SP9UOB-Tom: Specifically.
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> SP9UOB-Tom: reg 253 - exemptions - then scroll down to the definition of 'small balloon' in 255
[11:51] <SP9UOB-Tom> well phrase "under 2m" not found, i have to dig
[11:51] <SP9UOB-Tom> oh thanks :-)
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> Also - on closer reading, I find Leo might be close to violating the rules.
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> 'A person must not cause or permit a group of small balloons of more than 1000 in number to be simultaneously released'
[11:55] <Reb-SM3ULC> :)
[11:56] <SP9UOB-Tom> LOL
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[11:57] <SpeedEvil> Also - on reading the rules carefully - it does not say small balloons can't be guidable.
[11:57] Action: SpeedEvil continues reading.
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[11:59] <SpeedEvil> Ok - 'a small balloon' cannot be by definition a 'controlled balloon' or an 'uncontrolled balloon'.
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> Fail - they don't define aircraft.
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[12:04] <SP9UOB-Tom> SpeedEvil: is there mentioned border crossing ?
[12:04] <SP9UOB-Tom> SpeedEvil: i meen for balloons
[12:04] <SP9UOB-Tom> mean
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[12:05] <SpeedEvil> I'm currently reading the provisions that apply to exempt aircraft. You can't drop stuff from them.
[12:05] <SP9UOB-Tom> i want to talk with Polish Aviation Navigation Services Agency to claryfi regulations
[12:06] <LeoBodnar> Does Chicago convention apply to manned aircraft vehicles only?
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> Actually - no - that only applies if you're doing it for agriculture or forestry.
[12:06] <LeoBodnar> (less Belarus)
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[12:08] <LeoBodnar> If you are not a scheduled passenger flight you can just fly into another Chicago convention airspace without prior warning (complying with ATC of course)
[12:09] <LeoBodnar> But that's for manned registered aircraft I think
[12:10] <SP9UOB-Tom> mmm garlic butter :-)
[12:10] <SP9UOB-Tom> my second breakfast :-)
[12:10] <SP9UOB-Tom> or lunch
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[12:10] <LeoBodnar> And silver bullets by the bedside
[12:10] <DL1SGP> heh
[12:12] <SP9UOB-Tom> Lol :-)
[12:12] <SP9UOB-Tom> anyway, they found vampires graves in Gliwice (city where i live)
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> You can't be reckless in allowing it to endanger property. (138). The secatery of state can prohibit flying (161) Nothing other than the 'no mass releases' provisions of 163 applies - as small balloons are not uncontrolled or controlled. (unless captive)
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[12:13] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/jul/16/meaning-vampire-graves-poland
[12:13] <LeoBodnar> Do you can use silver plated UHF connectors as well Tom
[12:14] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/07/130715-vampire-archaeology-burial-exorcism-anthropology-grave/
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> The provisions around surveilance do not apply to balloons - they're not small unmanned aircraft. (167)
[12:14] <SP9UOB-Tom> yes i can :-)
[12:15] <LeoBodnar> This is how pagans dealt with first hams
[12:15] <SP9UOB-Tom> hahahaha
[12:16] <SP9UOB-Tom> i dont want end this way
[12:16] <LeoBodnar> I have microblackouts when typing
[12:17] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: migrene ?
[12:19] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://www.livescience.com/38148-vampire-grave-uncovered-vampire-burial.html
[12:19] <SP9UOB-Tom> ok have to go
[12:19] <LeoBodnar> No, but my own sentences make no sense to me
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> Including this one ^^
[12:20] <SP9UOB-Tom> ;-)
[12:20] <SP9UOB-Tom> see You all
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> CU latyer Tom
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> On completing reading the ANO - small balloons seem very unregulated. You basically can't release >1000 of them sometimes, can't drop stuff for the purposes of forestry,
[12:21] <LeoBodnar> Can you pilot one?
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> You can actually drop stuff from small balloons with the intent of killing people.
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[12:21] <SpeedEvil> Unless it's for the purpose of forestry.
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> - the 'general you can't drop stuff' only applies to 'small unmanned aircraft' -and balloons are specifically exempted from that.
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> So Dropion seding would be illegal?
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> seeding
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> yes
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> If done for the purposes of agriculture or forestry. You need a licence.
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> Dropping darts is just fine.
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[12:22] <SpeedEvil> (Please note, consult a lawyer)
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[12:29] <SpeedEvil> As far as I can tell, towing yourself through the air on a parascending parachute with an RC aircraft is quite legal.
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> PArascending parachutes are exempt - in the same way small balloons are. Parascending parachutes launched by winch and cable are controlled. A small RC plane weighing under 20kg, with enough thrust to make you able to ascend however does not come within the scope of these regulations.
[12:32] <LeoBodnar> Are hoverboards regulated as well?
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> Basically everything is heavily regulated except the exempt categories.
[12:34] <LeoBodnar> This is what is called true freedom
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> Small balloons, kites not weighing over 2kg, any small unmanned aircraft (this does not include small balloons), and any parachutes
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> ^are exempt from most provisions.
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> So, as far as I understand it.
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> Hoverboards are quite illegal.
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> Lifting yourself off the ground with 20 7Kg quadcopters attached to you by cable - just fine.
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[12:55] <DL7AD> good afternoon
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> hey.
[12:56] <nats`> someone have "easy" documentation on how to do lna ?
[12:56] <nats`> I mean more practical than math
[12:56] <nats`> but with a little math to do my own design
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> LNA?
[12:56] <nats`> low noise amplifier
[12:57] <mfa298> starting point would probably be the datasheet for the chip you're using
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> Or the habamp
[12:58] Action: SpeedEvil can't find schematics/board layouts.
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> I don't know ifhtey[re public
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[13:04] <nats`> mfa298 the datasheet is not a problem :)
[13:04] <nats`> it's more general method and math to do that
[13:04] <nats`> I did some small signal amp with BJT
[13:04] <nats`> using the small signal model
[13:04] <nats`> with dc biasing etc
[13:04] <nats`> but need a more specific consideration for LNA
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[13:05] <SpeedEvil> What frequency.
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[13:12] <HA6NN> tjanos: Szia! Any good news?
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[13:34] <Upu_M0PU> Daves batc.tv stream now :)
[13:34] <Upu_M0PU> m6rpi
[13:35] <mattbrejza> M0PU? ;)
[13:35] <bertrik> can someone give me some hints on how the green line in the graph on the bottom of this page was calculated: http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data ?
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[13:37] <SpeedEvil> For a full balloon, it ascends till the total density of the balloon + payload is equal to the atmospheric weight displaced.
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> As the atmosphere drops in density, it hovers where the two densities match
[13:38] <bertrik> SpeedEvil: ah, so that's basically the red line, right?
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> When you double the balloon+payloads systems total weight, you are doubling its density - so doubling the density at which it will hover - so dropping that by 5km or so
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> However.
[13:40] <bertrik> ok, I get that, the simplest atmospheric model is halving of density/pressure per ~ 5km or so, disregarding temperature
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> When you increase the amount of 'free lift' - that is excess lift over hovering - you are in effect pushing the balloon + payload system upwards.
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> This means higher internal-external pressure - and at some point, it bursts
[13:41] <x-f> http://batc.tv/ch_live.php?ch=5&id=1194
[13:41] <bertrik> the green line is some kind of constant-force on the envelope vs altitude?
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> bertrik: yes.
[13:41] <x-f> Dave's streams need more sound
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> It is limited by envelope burst pressure
[13:42] <mfa298> x-f agreed
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ckMvj1piK58#t=33 x-f
[13:43] <bertrik> SpeedEvil: and force is directly proportional to delta pressure (in vs out), right?
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> bertrik: Delta-pressure is proprotional to delta-density.
[13:44] <x-f> SpeedEvil, oooook..
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> I think - if volume is constant
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> I think that means yes.
[13:44] <LeoBodnar> Don't forget temperature
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yes - I'm ignoring that for the moment.
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> k
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> this is why day float is more complex
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> For a constant volume - delta-density is the same as delta-weight (though in different units)
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> Assuming inelastic balloons, and incompressible gasses.
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> err - no - with inelastic balloons - gas compression is irrelevant
[13:46] <bertrik> ok, just for my understanding: a typical pico float is half filled at sea level, becomes fully filled at some height h1, and finally floats even a bit higher at h2, where h1 < h2, right?
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[13:47] <bertrik> thanks
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> If it displaces 20g of air at the first altitude, and has a free lift of 2g, it will rise until it has a free lift of 0 - displaces 18g of air.
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[13:48] <SpeedEvil> So the external pressure will be 18/20ths of the initial float altitude.
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> And the pressure on the envelope will be 2/20ths of the pressure at the iniitial float altitude.
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> s/pressure/hoop stress * some constant related to the balloon size/
[13:51] <bertrik> SpeedEvil: thanks, I'll play a bit with the equations and try to get an intuitive feel for this
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> Oooh.
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> I thinkyou can also consider it as burst energy.
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> The balloon bursts at pressure * volume. This is an energy.
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> It has mgh energy available at the initial altitude where it fills.
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> (the nonlinear m due to free lift varying is annoying) but if you integrate the work done against drag with the burst energy, I think they're equal
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> However - that is an argument I need more coffee for.
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[13:55] Action: SpeedEvil ponders a nap.
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[14:00] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/xSwILKD.jpg
[14:02] <nats`> SpeedEvil I'm targetting the 70cm band
[14:02] <nats`> at the moment I have 5dB gain
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> Have you looked at the habamp
[14:02] <nats`> nop I'll take a look
[14:02] <nats`> I need to understand how I change the input and output impedance correctly
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=72_73&product_id=83
[14:04] <nats`> uhhm SpeedEvil I forget to mention that
[14:04] <nats`> I don't want to use an integrated amp :)
[14:04] <nats`> I want to do it with FET
[14:04] <nats`> more to learn
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[14:05] <gonzo_> you would want an impedance matching network.
[14:05] <gonzo_> some l's and c's
[14:06] <gonzo_> should be lots of tutorials about
[14:06] <nats`> yep I know how to do that more with the fet data
[14:07] <nats`> I don't know how to integrate this constraint :)
[14:07] <nats`> I'll search a little more
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[14:12] <HA6NN> tjanos: Hi, itt vagy még?
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[15:02] <SpeedEvil> Todays fun fact. Aluminium takes 15kWh/kg to make. It has a spot price of about 1100 quid a ton. This comes out to indirectly buying power at 7p/kWh or so.
[15:02] <SpeedEvil> Considerably cheaper than my electricity bill.
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[15:31] <Adam012> Okay, my turn - The mathematician Évariste Galois' work resulted in self corrected codes which permeate much of modern technology. He died from a sword through the throat at the age of 21 because someone objected to him sleeping with their wife/girlfriend.
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[16:12] <nats`> SpeedEvil if I understand the gate of the mosfet will be seen as a capacitor going to the source
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> nats`: Pretty much
[16:12] <nats`> I could match it by adding a serie inductance
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> Gate-source
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> Err - it's rather complex
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> http://www.qsl.net/sv1bsx/uhflna-bsx/uhflna-bsx.html
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> In short - yes - you can tune out the capacitance with an inductor.
[16:14] <SpeedEvil> The above looks decent
[16:14] <mclane> B30 is up
[16:14] <DL1SGP> woot
[16:14] <DL1SGP> :D
[16:15] <nats`> I'll read :)
[16:15] <nats`> wind say it'll go over france ?
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: Just remember - no more than 10000 balloons per 15 minutes per square kilometer launch- or you need CAA permission.
[16:16] <nats`> :D
[16:16] <LeoBodnar> haha OK
[16:17] <DL7AD> woho B-30
[16:17] <DL1SGP> have not checked any predictions nats but I would be happy if it was flying into an area you could decode it at
[16:18] <nats`> that's why I was asking plus my bad LNA can do at least 5db :p
[16:20] <DL1SGP> yay
[16:28] <nats`> SpeedEvil I have trouble to understand how the matching is done on this one
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> Do you understand complex impedences
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[16:28] <nats`> I have an overview
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[16:29] <nats`> for what I remember your try to correct the phase shifting between the current and the voltage
[16:30] <nats`> (+ the real resistance part)
[16:32] <nats`> the problem I have here is that the capacitance on G1 (it's the bf998 dg fet) can vary
[16:33] <nats`> twice more following the voltage on the gate
[16:34] <nats`> DL7AD there is MASH too it seems
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[16:35] <DL7AD> nats`: where is it flying?
[16:36] <nats`> manchester
[16:36] <nats`> on the tracker
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[16:36] <nats`> ohh mistake last message have some hours
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> nats`: right - and that causes distortion in some cases.
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[16:37] <nats`> SpeedEvil maybe I should use varicap and some variable inductor on the input to find better results ?
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[17:08] <bertrik> oh wow, B-30 already received by F5APQ
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[17:14] <ed5> just switched on. What frequency is B30 on?
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[17:15] <bertrik> I don't know, I'm not receiving it yet, but I guess the usual, 434.500 MHz
[17:15] <chrisstubbs> 434.500
[17:15] <chrisstubbs> just txed then
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[17:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hey Guys :-)
[17:19] <gonzo_> bugger me, another!
[17:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> LOL
[17:20] <DL1SGP> Hey Steve_G0TDJ get a cuppa tea, Leo is at it again :)
[17:20] <Steve_G0TDJ> Nothing heard here yet but that's nothing unusual
[17:20] <Steve_G0TDJ> Funny you should say that Felix ;-)
[17:20] <DL1SGP> yeah nothing heard here either
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[17:20] <Steve_G0TDJ> Is it right on .500 again?
[17:21] <G8KNN> yeah, its the usual frequency
[17:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK Cool
[17:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> I was in the middle of fixing dinner and I spotted the map....
[17:21] <G8KNN> pretty strong signal too
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[17:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> Oh good. I might get to hear it soon
[17:22] <DL1SGP> fingers crossed Steve_G0TDJ :P
[17:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> Partial $$B-36,4,NC2232,am16,51.9a9,-9i1,414B,-5,4t572
[17:23] <DL1SGP> 36 heh
[17:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, delusions of grandeur LOL
[17:23] <DL1SGP> you got a time traveler frame, you will be famous!
[17:24] <Steve_G0TDJ> Gotta cieck my dinner - brb LOL
[17:24] <DL1SGP> go to stonehenge and shout that you caught radio signals from future, to emphasize the severity of the message it is up to you to wear a tinfoil hat or not
[17:25] <Steve_G0TDJ> Felix, you're nuts! :D (in a good way)
[17:26] <gonzo_> prefer to be at the henge painted in flowers and stoned
[17:26] Action: DL1SGP liked the countryside around Salisbury towards Stonehenge
[17:26] <Steve_G0TDJ> Weird prediction
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[17:31] <Steve_G0TDJ> chrisstubbs: Did you say you were sending a v4 CHEAPO up tomorrow? Id=s that the same as the 'mini?
[17:31] <chrisstubbs> Yeah the little blue one
[17:31] <Steve_G0TDJ> Is it the forst flight for one of those?
[17:31] <chrisstubbs> about 11:00 - 12:00 launch i hope
[17:31] <Steve_G0TDJ> first even
[17:32] <chrisstubbs> Nope this should be the second
[17:32] <LeoBodnar> What's up for tomorrow?
[17:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> Oh OK
[17:32] <chrisstubbs> the first only went to about 6/7km
[17:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hey Leo :-)
[17:32] <LeoBodnar> Hey Steve!
[17:32] <chrisstubbs> LeoBodnar, me and MickMondo are picoing on latex ballons i think
[17:32] <LeoBodnar> How did those seeds go?
[17:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> Oh Microwave ping! Dinner ready :D
[17:32] <LeoBodnar> Cool!
[17:32] <DL7AD> rofl
[17:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hot I hope LOL...brb
[17:34] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: to which altitude is b-30 about to go now?
[17:35] <LeoBodnar> Tonight about 6900..7000m
[17:37] <Steve_G0TDJ> I better drag myself up at a reasonable time. MickMondo mentioned a 9:30 launch?
[17:39] <LeoBodnar> How the Dropanought flew?
[17:39] <LeoBodnar> Dropion, sorry
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[17:41] <Steve_G0TDJ> HIya Andy
[17:42] <Andrew_M6GTG> afternoon Steve
[17:42] <Andrew_M6GTG> just saw on twitter B-30 up!
[17:42] <Steve_G0TDJ> I was about to tell you but you beat me to it :-)
[17:44] <Andrew_M6GTG> lol
[17:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> I can't hear it here yet. I'm hoping that prediction isn't correct..
[17:45] <Steve_G0TDJ> Partials...
[17:45] <Andrew_M6GTG> odd pattern ;-)
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[17:47] <Andrew_M6GTG> if the prediction is correct, should come close by
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Maestro-Wireless-Solutions/A2200-A/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsjLMBIknjmktYVBsqsIotyqEY%252bXiYuHqE= -GPS for a tenner
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> Sirf Iv
[17:48] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, I doubt if I'll get much if it starts going away from here. I'll have to content myself with Mick and Chris's launches tomorrow.
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> Claims 500uA@2.5Vto maintain hot start of 1s
[17:52] <adamgreig> this is adam
[17:52] <adamgreig> i am adam
[17:52] <adamgreig> it's actually ed
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> I am not adam.
[17:52] <jonsowman> i edam
[17:52] <jonsowman> *hi
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> jonsowman: Cheesed to meet you.
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[17:52] <jonsowman> lol
[17:53] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi Ed
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[17:54] <Andrew_M6GTG> Went into a maplins today.. unbelievable
[17:55] <Steve_G0TDJ> Couldn't find anything you needed?
[17:55] <Steve_G0TDJ> Overpriced?
[17:55] <Andrew_M6GTG> overpriced.. breadboard wires.. £6 for 10!
[17:55] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, nutty
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> What's the average accelleration of a balloon in float? Did anyone do any logging?
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> I'm wondering about low power laser gimbals.
[17:56] <Steve_G0TDJ> Whats one of them?
[17:56] <Andrew_M6GTG> did get a few bits under protest
[17:57] <Steve_G0TDJ> Andrew_M6GTG: I have a Maplin within easy walking distance and I only use them for 'emergency' stuff.
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> Steve_G0TDJ: I want to work out how to do lowish power medium bandwidth comms between balloons over 200km ranges or so.
[17:57] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK
[17:57] <Steve_G0TDJ> You might need more than 10mW
[17:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> B-30 in a bit of a spin....
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Steve_G0TDJ: possibly - I was wondering about >>>50bps though
[17:58] Action: SpeedEvil should do some numbers.
[17:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> Interesting idea
[17:59] <gonzo_> I had tpo get a new laser printer the other day and went to maplins. (Well the work's weee bin didn't have any decent ones in)
[17:59] <gonzo_> ended up getting a bgood price on it
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[18:02] <Andrew_M6GTG> gonzo_: they used to be really good, a shadow of their former self - mind you they will struggle again ebay et al
[18:02] <DL7AD> A2200 is no good chip because it consumes too much power
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[18:02] <Andrew_M6GTG> *against
[18:03] <gonzo_> they still try and sell their catalogue
[18:03] <gonzo_> was worth buying 25 yrs ago
[18:04] <gonzo_> useful databook. but now it looks like the argos xatalogue
[18:04] <mfa298> they usually try and sign me up for the tokens as well until I point out I never spend enough
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[18:05] <Andrew_M6GTG> yeap pages and pages of components, pin outs data and kits, was a book of wonder back then ;-)
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> 30mm lens diffraction limited with 822nm light would be 30 microradians. This is a nanosteradian or so. At 100km, a 30mm target is 3*10^-7 radians. So the beamwidth is 30m or so. a 30mm lens gets 1 part in a million of this light. A watt would result in 10^19*10^-6 = 10^13 photons per second. At 1000 photons a bit that's 10^10 photons/s
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> photons/bit
[18:06] Action: SpeedEvil wonders where his error is.
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[18:07] <SpeedEvil> I guess assuming the pointing
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[18:13] <LeoBodnar> Laser comms might be extremely efficient considering low beam divergence
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> I was idly wondering about the MicroLoon idea
[18:15] <LeoBodnar> Targeting becomes difficult as you need to know the counterpart position first to target it
[18:15] <LeoBodnar> I know...
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: that's not so bad with GPS broadcasts on 433
[18:16] <LeoBodnar> atmospheric absorption could be a bit of a problem
[18:16] <LeoBodnar> do they make solid state masers?
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> Masers = microwave
[18:18] <BrainDamage> there are some, but they aren't considerably superior to normal cavity stuff which is already coherent
[18:20] <LeoBodnar> You can't do cavity with low power levels, is that right?
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> Any sort of microwaves isn't really viable
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> As the antenna size needs to be too large
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> For feasible levels of power
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> http://nari.arc.nasa.gov/LEARNseminar2013 - all of the NASA presentation is up now. I need to watch the gust sensing UAVs one, and the UAV microradar ones.
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[18:26] <mattbrejza> http://hackaday.com/2013/11/16/nearspace-environmental-chamber/ seems familiar...
[18:27] <x-f> nice :)
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[18:28] <LeoBodnar> why color?
[18:28] <arko> oh hey look at that
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[18:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> B-30 wants to go home
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> PVC is probably a bad choice.
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> It has a nasty habit of shattering, especially at low temps
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[18:36] <LeoBodnar> I really enjoyed your talk arko !
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[18:57] <LeoBodnar> SpeedEvil: laser pointing can be done best with galvo controlled mirrors
[19:01] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> Upu
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[19:04] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yes, I know.
[19:05] <SpeedEvil> how to do a 30mm binocular laser bidirectional gimballed system in under 30g or so is interesting though
[19:05] <LeoBodnar> Maybe negative feedback control loop involving the other hab?
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[19:05] <SpeedEvil> The feedback look - in some ways - is theeasy part
[19:05] <SpeedEvil> loop
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> 200km of light-time isn't that bad - once locked
[19:06] <LeoBodnar> I have found so far no easy parts in habbing lol :D
[19:06] <LeoBodnar> As soon as you think you got a grip of certain aspect it fails miserably and pathetically
[19:09] <bombd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRYDTnlkU6c
[19:10] <bombd> sorry, i had to.. in finnish
[19:14] <Upu> oh yay its coming north
[19:14] <Upu> best place to be
[19:14] Nick change: Upu -> Upu_M0UPU
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[19:23] <arko> LeoBodnar: thanks dude :)
[19:25] <fsphil> ah he's at it again
[19:25] <fsphil> and this one heading north
[19:25] Action: SP9UOB-Tom was burned by resistor acting as artifical antenna - that means PA is working :-)
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[19:25] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening all :-)
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[19:25] <fsphil> that's a kind of success I guess!
[19:25] <DL1SGP> Great way to test Tom, and good evening :)
[19:26] <nats`> I have a spice model for my lna someone could take a look at it ?
[19:26] <SP9UOB-Tom> fsphil: sure :-) 7.2 V RMS @75 ohm
[19:27] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: :-) im finishing my HF payload
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[19:29] <DL1SGP> SP9UOB-Tom: I am very looking forward to it. Let me know once you have details concerning start and so on, I heard of your "legal issues" earlier
[19:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: legal issues are about pico payloads in Poland
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[19:30] <DL1SGP> hope you get that stuff resolved to a satisfactional level Tom :)
[19:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: that HF flight will be latex, with NOTAM and permission and so on :-) 100% legal
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[19:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: the easiest solution is to launch form Chech Republic :-)
[19:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> Czech
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[19:32] <DL1SGP> Great idea, if it is not too far for you :)
[19:32] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: right :-)
[19:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> when it cros the Polish border airborne - it should be legal :-)
[19:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> cross
[19:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> i have to dig in Czech or Slovak regulations
[19:35] Action: SP9UOB-Tom has finally got 860 mili Watts from one BS170 in E class @21 MHz :-)
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[19:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pliki/hantek92_2.gif
[19:46] <DL1SGP> nice :)
[19:46] <DL1SGP> so on the HF side it will be 15m that is a good choice
[19:49] <SP9UOB-Tom> im considering 20m but it can be harder to recieve in line-of-sight i suppose
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[19:51] <DL1SGP> indeed
[19:52] <SP9UOB-Tom> i have flown 3 times @28 Mhz, and results was very promising :-)
[19:53] <SP9UOB-Tom> more than 7000 km range :-)
[19:53] <DL1SGP> oh yes 10m can be a pretty band
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[20:36] <Upu_M0UPU> does anyone else have some out of sync (sync with B-30) pips up about 500hz from B-30 ?
[20:36] <Upu_M0UPU> http://i.imgur.com/qL5Awb0.jpg
[20:39] <Steve_G0TDJ> The ghost of B-29......
[20:39] <LeoBodnar> The Black Balloon
[20:40] <arko> some say....
[20:40] <Steve_G0TDJ> COMING TO A CINEMA NEAR YOU - TERMS & CONDITIONS APPLY
[20:41] <Steve_G0TDJ> Just getting occasional partials here Upu_M0UPU
[20:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> LeoBodnar, I hope your keep ing some balloons back for a week or so's time I'll need somethig reliable to check my aerials out on when they go back up!
[20:43] <LeoBodnar> I will do Geoff-G8DHE
[20:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Excellent!
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[20:50] <chrisstubbs> Now where did I put my RTL-SDR...
[20:51] <arko> this is how i've ended up with 3 of them
[20:51] <arko> cant find one, just buy another
[20:51] <LeoBodnar> This is how you have ended up with none
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[20:52] Action: arko plays the violin
[20:52] <arko> :P
[20:52] <arko> ok coffee time, im completely behind schedule :/
[20:52] <mfa298> problem with that method is the shipping time from china.
[20:52] <gonzo_> wonder if they are like biro's?
[20:52] <LeoBodnar> are you merging sites with Sven?
[20:52] <mfa298> Leo will have flown 30+ balloons by the time the new rtl-sdr arrives
[20:53] <SP9UOB-Tom> arko: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMNK5KDHScY
[20:53] <Upu_M0UPU> even more if it takes more than two weeks mfa298
[20:53] <DL1SGP> hehe
[20:53] <arko> LeoBodnar: yes
[20:53] <arko> DL7AD and I need to talk today
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> cool
[20:53] <arko> SOON
[20:54] <Upu_M0UPU> I said to Daveke in Manchester today, we best get back before Leo launches another balloon however we didn't make it
[20:54] Action: SP9UOB-Tom is playing with the RF chokes :-)
[20:54] <arko> its going to become apart of habhub at some point, once we have a design down
[20:54] <Upu_M0UPU> once its working let us know arko and we can host it on the habhub servers
[20:54] <Steve_G0TDJ> gonzo_: Slipping away un-noticed through wormholes in space, to a Dongoliod planet, leading a uniquely dongoliod lifestyle....
[20:54] <arko> SP9UOB-Tom: nicee
[20:54] <arko> Upu_M0UPU: :D
[20:54] <arko> im half tempted to actually make some real pagers
[20:55] <LeoBodnar> Life goes on as normal in habiverse
[20:55] <arko> use some pocsag/flex network
[20:55] <arko> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Og1DuMu3k
[20:56] <chrisstubbs> arko is that sign up page working or just a template?
[20:56] <arko> template
[20:56] <arko> DL7AD: has a working page
[20:56] <arko> but this is all soon to merge
[20:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> You need these type of USB connectors attached to the Dongles http://tinyurl.com/pr68zuz
[20:56] <gonzo_> Steve_G0TDJ, that was where I would have gone, if the topic had not changed
[20:56] <LeoBodnar> a pager and a Filofax, who needs more?
[20:57] <Steve_G0TDJ> Good to know there's a DNA fan or two here anyway
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[20:58] <gonzo_> though my theory (this theory, that I have and is mine) a room can disolve a certain concentration of pens. and you have to saturate the room, before they start to crystallise out. Then you can find pens when you need
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[20:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> Interesting theory
[20:59] <gonzo_> and who's it is
[20:59] <chrisstubbs> Same applies for little scraps of wire
[20:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'll remember it's yours :-)
[20:59] <DL1SGP> gonzo_: can I have my pen back please I need to take a note on that theory
[20:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> LOL
[20:59] <chrisstubbs> they get shorter and shorter until you have to get the cat5 box out of the loft again ;)
[20:59] <gonzo_> pleasy apply, Ms Anne Elke
[21:00] <gonzo_> they get shgorter, till your bare feet find them again
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[21:02] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> http://hackaday.com/2013/11/16/nearspace-environmental-chamber/
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[21:07] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[21:19] <chrisstubbs> One day I will post a launch announcement without any typos
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[21:24] <Steve_G0TDJ> I read it without noticing any chrisstubbs
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[21:25] <chrisstubbs> drift/shift on the first and binging/bringing
[21:25] <Steve_G0TDJ> Don't worry about it.
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[21:27] <chrisstubbs> Cool tracker is all set, tested and wrapped up in foam/tape
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[21:33] <LeoBodnar> Nice! One day I will make tracker the night before.
[21:33] <DL1SGP> hehe LeoBodnar
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[21:49] <tweetBot> @daveake: Slides from my presentation at @McrRaspJam https://t.co/wEE9PznCou #raspberrypi #UKHAS. Slide 9 is the "movember" one :-)
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UdRKkR_WZTQ&list=PLZyhXyYkcZ9rw-IZ4US8I48O1TLLHHpF_
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[21:59] <DL7AD> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/920064946/oscilloscope-watch
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> heh
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> more stupid junk
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[22:02] <guest1234> ge all
[22:02] <chrisstubbs> A mobile phone scope would be cool
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[22:02] <chrisstubbs> Hi guest1234
[22:03] <guest1234> hi
[22:04] <DL7AD> evening :)
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> B-30 is so slow
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[22:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> Update on SDR-Radio it now includes PSK & RTTY decoding built in
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[22:27] <gonzo_> have they included a payload auto config and fwd telem?
[22:27] <mfa298> needs DominoEX and SSDV decoding next
[22:28] <gonzo_> hehe, was just typing similar!
[22:28] <craag> is sdr-radio open source?
[22:29] <mfa298> i don't think so
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[22:30] <Lunar_Lander__> hello!
[22:30] <Maxell> nice, PB0AHX already decoding
[22:31] <Upu_M0UPU> oh reminds me ping mattbrejza
[22:31] <Maxell> USB dial still 434.500 MHz?
[22:31] <Maxell> mattbrejza: ping :P
[22:32] <Upu_M0UPU> Speaking to Eben they have done a GPU accelerated fourier transform library for the Pi so they think it can do SDR decoding on the fly with super complex stuff
[22:32] <craag> :D
[22:32] <mfa298> I've had it decoding Wideband FM with the rtl_fm utility
[22:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> No SDR-Radio isn't :-(
[22:33] <Upu_M0UPU> well they think it should be able to decode raw gps
[22:33] <Lunar_Lander__> hey craag
[22:33] <mfa298> and according to the options rtl_fm can do USB/LSB/NFM/AM as well
[22:33] <craag> evening Lunar_Lander__
[22:33] <Lunar_Lander__> craag, I got something interesting for you
[22:33] Action: Upu_M0UPU gets the pop corn
[22:33] Action: craag jumps up and down with glee..
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander__> http://s.gullipics.com/image/c/i/f/5yvau9-kzu0hy-k13s/IMG0191.jpeg
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander__> http://s.gullipics.com/image/j/w/4/5yvau9-kzu1ik-ss8a/IMG0192.jpeg
[22:34] <adamgreig> Upu_M0UPU: well it can do raw gps, but in real time? :P
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[22:34] <Upu_M0UPU> thats what they think
[22:34] <adamgreig> they need to publish a gpu interface really
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[22:34] <Upu_M0UPU> the GPU is pretty beefy
[22:34] <adamgreig> maybe but GPUs only get you so far
[22:34] <adamgreig> still it would be nice
[22:35] <Upu_M0UPU> I don't understand enough about the underlying maths to say if it can but the guy who wrote the library did it specifically for this reason
[22:35] <Upu_M0UPU> Eben has had a bee in his bonnet about SDR for a while
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander__> craag, this is from the SLAC/Fermilab magazine "Symmetry"
[22:36] <Upu_M0UPU> sadly GPU is closed
[22:36] <craag> Lunar_Lander__: right..
[22:36] <Upu_M0UPU> however he has said repeatidly if you give him the code he'll get it GPU accelerated
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander__> I like question 11 "Where the heck do cosmic rays come from?"
[22:36] <craag> hence pinging matt ? :P
[22:37] <Upu_M0UPU> well he's made that decoder on an Android
[22:37] <adamgreig> can't really "give" him the code though, in a useful sense?
[22:37] <adamgreig> doing things for gpu is very different
[22:37] <adamgreig> you probably want to be using different algorithms
[22:37] <adamgreig> but it kinda depends on the gpu
[22:37] <Upu_M0UPU> well
[22:37] <craag> Upu_M0UPU: It's all on his github btw.
[22:37] <adamgreig> in any event if you know how to make the code work on a gpu you probably don't need a reference
[22:37] <Upu_M0UPU> yes but he has some very bright people working for him
[22:38] <adamgreig> then why does he need code? just tell them to make an sdr decoder
[22:38] <Upu_M0UPU> lol
[22:38] <adamgreig> it's not rocket science, there are references
[22:38] <adamgreig> rtty is just sync and matched filters
[22:38] <adamgreig> would be really interested just to know how they interface with the gpu
[22:38] <adamgreig> whether it's openCL esque or writing custom shaders or actually something totally proprietory
[22:38] <Upu_M0UPU> I think its the more mathematically intensive stuff he's referring too
[22:39] <craag> Lunar_Lander__: 'What is the nature of the vacuum?' - that's a strange one
[22:39] <adamgreig> that is the mathematically intensive stuff
[22:39] <adamgreig> for general sdr purposes anyway
[22:39] <Upu_M0UPU> demonstrating how little I know
[22:39] <adamgreig> maybe a gpu decimater or something would be nice, but..
[22:39] <adamgreig> it's a big shame the gpu is closed is all I'm getting at I guess
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[22:40] <adamgreig> never going to get very far if all the gpu things have to be closed blobs that magically work
[22:40] <adamgreig> someone's made a web interface SDR, ShinySDR. cute
[22:40] <Upu_M0UPU> yeah I think thats broadcom
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander__> craag, yeah
[22:41] <mfa298> from seeing how things appear to work I think you can could do basic sdr and decoding on the pi cpu (mikestir's app almost works on the pi for the receiver side, and rtl_fm seems to work to some extent)
[22:41] <craag> Yeah broadcom are not helpful.
[22:41] <mfa298> and matts app looks to load up on the pi - but I've not managed to get audio into it yet.
[22:41] <craag> From what I've heard from Interns, they're really cagey about everything to do with their chips.
[22:41] <Upu_M0UPU> yep
[22:41] <craag> Scared of chinese clones.
[22:46] <LeoBodnar> craag: Nature of vacuum is not s strange question. Complete nothingness is pretty much ruled out by quantum mechanics so it may well be "bubbly" and "wrinkly" nothingness rather than smooth and empty one
[22:47] <craag> LeoBodnar: Ah fair enough, shows how far my physics knowledge goes ;)
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander__> xD
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander__> the Woman with question 8 looks like a friend of mine btw
[22:48] <mfa298> LeoBodnar's '"bubbly" and "wrinkly" nothingness' sounds somewhat similar to the Doctor's "Wibbly Wobbly Timey-Whimey"
[22:48] <craag> lol mfa298
[22:49] <LeoBodnar> * stares out of the window in coxesque way
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[22:52] <Lunar_Lander__> xD LeoBodnar
[22:53] <Lunar_Lander__> and the guy at the bottom, number 12, he looks like me with gray hair :S
[22:54] <LeoBodnar> Maybe you will have designed a one-way time machine in the future?
[22:55] <Lunar_Lander__> xD
[22:55] <LeoBodnar> And played a practical joke on yourslef
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander__> xD
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[23:04] <LeoBodnar> Just looking at sn.us infobox: Leigh On Sea, Essex, UK 0930 MONDO 434.200Mhz 8N1.5
[23:05] <LeoBodnar> Is this 1.5 stop bits?
[23:05] <chrisstubbs> Yeah thats what he said on the list leo
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander__> hey chrisstubbs
[23:06] <LeoBodnar> Haven't seen this selection for q very long time, any idea what the practical reason would be?
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander__> hi to Ireland ei3hmb
[23:06] <Upu_M0UPU> none I've ever worked out
[23:07] <LeoBodnar> I guess with proper decoder it can make sync process better as edges timing clock would have moved 1/2 bit
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> B-30 is slowest pico ever
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> hardly moved in 5 hours
[23:08] <LeoBodnar> hah
[23:08] <ei3hmb> hi there..
[23:08] <ei3hmb> i have an issue with my payload config
[23:09] <LeoBodnar> Anyway, does 366 J/g sounds a reasonable latent heat of vapourisation for i-butane?
[23:09] <db_g6gzh> ISTR 5-bit baudot RTTY using 1.5 stop bits, probably due to mechanical teleprinters though I don't know why
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander__> LeoBodnar, yeah http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=i-butane
[23:10] <Laurenceb_> yes
[23:10] <Laurenceb_> seems correct latent heat
[23:10] <LeoBodnar> An awful lot...
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[23:11] <LeoBodnar> To vapourise 10g one would need 3.7kJ
[23:11] <LeoBodnar> or 1000mWh
[23:12] <LeoBodnar> And AA capacity is 4400mWh at room temp :/
[23:13] <LeoBodnar> hmmm
[23:13] Nick change: guest1234 -> Herman-PB0AHX
[23:14] <Herman-PB0AHX> ge all
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> latent heats are large
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> is about 8 times lower than water
[23:16] <Herman-PB0AHX> ge Leo B30 working agn very fine here
[23:17] <LeoBodnar> ge Herman-PB0AHX
[23:17] <LeoBodnar> glad to hear!
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[23:18] <LeoBodnar> Is there anything with low latent heat that liquifies at -10..-20C?
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[23:20] <Maxell> Hmm, in range, not yet seeing anything
[23:20] <Maxell> Herman-PB0AHX: you are doing great!
[23:20] <Maxell> ah, acctually seeing the latest TX
[23:21] <Maxell> not yet decoding
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: i dont know
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> its going to be hard to find something thats also cheap and available
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> most refrigerants arent well suited to this
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[23:23] <LeoBodnar> Might experiment with i-butane then
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[23:25] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
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[23:27] <DL1SGP> Good Night folks, enjoy the tracking
[23:28] <LeoBodnar> Good night!
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[23:30] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: I can't get my head around partial pressure calcs
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[23:31] <LeoBodnar> If I were to fill zero pressure balloon with He + butane mix how do I know saturated butane vapour pressure at certain temperature and pressure?
[23:32] <LeoBodnar> There must be data on how much butane vapour Helium can sustain similar to air + water mix
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[23:34] <Laurenceb__> if you have ibutane in a sealed envelope, partial pressure isnt relevant
[23:34] <LeoBodnar> I know, but I want to stick it into main envelope
[23:34] <LeoBodnar> this will save a lot of weight
[23:34] <LeoBodnar> if it works
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[23:36] <Herman-PB0AHX> maxel yes writing green lines on this moment
[23:36] <LeoBodnar> The problem with the separate ibutane pouch is it should be quite large to accommodate expansion
[23:36] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[23:37] <Laurenceb__> this sounds hard to simulate
[23:37] <LeoBodnar> to avoid it going superpressured
[23:37] <LeoBodnar> I have simulated it and it should be 2-3 times the volume of butane on the ground
[23:38] <LeoBodnar> obviously it can be larger if weight is not a problem
[23:38] <LeoBodnar> the key is stopping it SPing
[23:38] <Laurenceb__> need to get NASA to sponsor this
[23:38] <LeoBodnar> It expands and then suddenly it liquifies and collapses
[23:38] <LeoBodnar> Pure magic
[23:39] <Laurenceb__> seems relevant to their plantery balloon ideas
[23:39] <LeoBodnar> I want to stick it into main envelope for a laugh
[23:40] <LeoBodnar> so it will start saturating and condensing at certain pressure/temperature point
[23:40] <LeoBodnar> It must almost the same
[23:40] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[23:40] <Maxell> ah, great
[23:41] <LeoBodnar> How much water vapour can air contain at 20C ?
[23:41] <Laurenceb__> this will make the ibutane more volatile
[23:41] <Maxell> now we wait until the signal gets stronger: $$B-30,236,233932t31116,52.3683,0.2952u6748,6,-22,3t 78,0*B19d
[23:41] <Laurenceb__> not much by volume
[23:41] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: iirc ibutane is too volatile already
[23:41] <Laurenceb__> im not sure this will work
[23:41] <LeoBodnar> See, if you make 50/50% mix of air to water and cool it down to 50C almost all water will condense
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[23:42] <LeoBodnar> so below butane boiling point Helium won't be able to absorb a lot of butane vapour
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[23:43] <LeoBodnar> *50/50 % mix of water/air at 200C
[23:44] <Laurenceb__> not exactly
[23:44] <Laurenceb__> you need to look at the vapour pressure
[23:44] <Laurenceb__> this is why i suggested methanol
[23:45] <LeoBodnar> expecting Willdude any minute now
[23:45] <Laurenceb__> i have him on ignore :P
[23:47] <LeoBodnar> I don't believe 50/50 mix of Helium to butane will remain gaseous at say -30C
[23:47] <LeoBodnar> 50/50 He + butane density is roughly the same as air
[23:48] <Herman-PB0AHX> maxell u are writing now green ?
[23:48] <Laurenceb__> its easy to work out with partial pressures
[23:48] <LeoBodnar> So 20/80 butane + Helium is reasonably buoyant
[23:49] <Laurenceb__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/LogNbutaneVaporPresure.png
[23:49] <LeoBodnar> how? I slept through all my thermodynamics classes :D
[23:49] <Laurenceb__> so 20/80 only starts condensing at -30C
[23:49] <Laurenceb__> at 1Bar
[23:50] <Laurenceb__> as pressure goes lower it gets even worse
[23:50] <Laurenceb__> 1Bar ~ 1000mmHg
[23:51] <LeoBodnar> Ah, you are taking 1/5 of mix pressure?
[23:51] <Laurenceb__> yes
[23:51] <LeoBodnar> OK, then move on to n-butane
[23:51] <LeoBodnar> it should be better
[23:51] <Laurenceb__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a1/MeOHlogVaporpressure.png
[23:51] <Laurenceb__> that was n-butane
[23:52] <LeoBodnar> bummer
[23:52] <Laurenceb__> methanol might be feasible
[23:53] <LeoBodnar> prediction suggests 90 degrees turn any minute now for the last 4 hours
[23:54] <Laurenceb__> so at 8Km
[23:54] <Laurenceb__> with 20/80 methanol/He
[23:54] <Laurenceb__> it starts condensing below 15C
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[23:55] <LeoBodnar> I get 0C
[23:56] <LeoBodnar> at 8km pressure is 1/3 atm
[23:56] <Laurenceb__> so 330mm
[23:57] <Laurenceb__> divide that by 5
[23:57] <LeoBodnar> by 0.2 it's 66
[23:57] <LeoBodnar> yeah you are right
[23:58] <LeoBodnar> so it won't go to 8km then
[23:58] <LeoBodnar> I use about 50-60L of Helum
[23:59] <LeoBodnar> so 5g lift difference more like 10%
[23:59] <LeoBodnar> 10/90 mix more like it
[00:00] --- Sun Nov 17 2013