highaltitude.log.20131112

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[00:07] <Herman-PB0AHX> i go to sleep now gn to all
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[01:07] <DL7AD> livestream sp3osj http://radio.it/PROJECTS/spectra/Albugnano/Albugnano-tuned.m3u
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[06:41] <x-f> hmmmmmmmmmmmm
[06:43] <x-f> on the Russian forum from where RS010 got STS-10 Belarus decodes, there is a reply at 4:26am this morning, that STS-10 was barely heard but couldn't be decoded
[06:44] <x-f> no location though, and it might be 1:26 UTC, i guess
[06:44] <Upu> SP3OSJ is doing well
[06:44] <Upu> I think B-27 is dead nothing on APRS
[06:45] <Upu> might fix itself when it warms up
[06:46] <x-f> morning, Upu
[06:46] <Upu> hi x-f
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[07:31] <arko> https://gmaps-samples.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/poly/puzzledrag.html
[07:31] <arko> thought you guys might appricate this
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[07:31] <arko> somewhat of a neat description http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lR7s1Y6Zig
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[08:06] <DL1SGP> good morning
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[08:07] <jedas> morning
[08:08] <DL7AD> morning
[08:09] <x-f> morning
[08:14] <fsphil> ^
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[08:16] <daveake> morning
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[08:17] <arko> morning
[08:19] <number10> morning
[08:23] <fsphil> nice bit of tracking on SP3OSJ
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[08:38] <ibanezmatt13> morning
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[08:42] <LeoBodnar> morning!
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> I've been comparing this camera http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22plKNaYab0&feature=youtu.be to the Go Pro, as it's significantly cheaper. Looks ok to be honest, or at least a suitable alternative
[08:45] <ibanezmatt13> Not sure about the battery life but everything else looksfine
[08:46] <LeoBodnar> Has anybody tracked B-27 yesterday?
[08:46] <Steve_G0TDJ_AFK> I managed a few sentances but it went out of range pretty quickly
[08:47] <UpuWork> it was drifting badly on TX Leo
[08:47] <UpuWork> almost impossible to keep up with it
[08:47] <Steve_G0TDJ_AFK> Once it cooled down to -58C
[08:47] <LeoBodnar> All the way up or after certain altitude?
[08:47] <UpuWork> not sure it was initially ok
[08:47] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ_AFK -> Steve_G0TDJ
[08:47] <LeoBodnar> It was hitting -59C at some point
[08:47] <UpuWork> then it droped down to 434.496
[08:47] <LeoBodnar> Thanks for tracking guys!
[08:48] <Steve_G0TDJ> I think I caught the drift on a screenshot
[08:48] <UpuWork> and then on TX it drifted up 1000-2000Hz as it TX'd
[08:48] <UpuWork> -59 ?
[08:48] <UpuWork> wow
[08:48] <fsphil> ooch
[08:48] <fsphil> no wonder it drifted
[08:48] <UpuWork> not surprised it had issues
[08:48] <LeoBodnar> Yeah http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/a244561842da7239ce31ea591188a8fb#g/altitude,battery,temperature_internal
[08:48] <UpuWork> see if it wakes up this morning
[08:48] <LeoBodnar> It burst
[08:48] <fsphil> it'll be on the ground
[08:49] <Steve_G0TDJ> LeoBodnar: You can see the dramatic drift in this screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/0FcvKQt.jpg
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[08:50] <LeoBodnar> Oh dear
[08:50] <Steve_G0TDJ> Good Morning Everyone BTW
[08:50] <jphoglund> morning
[08:50] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm off out in a minute but I'll be back for a chat later.
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[08:51] <Steve_G0TDJ> Before I go - LeoBodnar are you intending a launch today ;-)
[08:51] <LeoBodnar> I think the nature of TCXO makes it possibly worse outside of the compensated range?
[08:51] <LeoBodnar> Not yet Steve_G0TDJ :D
[08:51] <Steve_G0TDJ> It as a dramatic change. One minute it was fine, the next it went nuts
[08:51] <LeoBodnar> Do you know the time it happened?
[08:52] <LeoBodnar> Or alt?
[08:52] <Steve_G0TDJ> Not exactly but it couldn't have been very much earlier than my screenshot
[08:52] <fsphil> first mention in the channel at 22:11:47
[08:52] <Steve_G0TDJ> My screenshot 22:08
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[08:53] <Steve_G0TDJ> *doh* I've just been told I don't need to go anywhere for an hour....
[08:55] <LeoBodnar> Cheers fsphil
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[08:57] <LeoBodnar> 22:11 was -55C at 13000m
[08:57] <Steve_G0TDJ> Did it have much insulation?
[08:57] <LeoBodnar> Almost none
[08:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> We were speculating that.
[08:58] <LeoBodnar> It needs some
[08:58] <LeoBodnar> Even -45C would be better
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[08:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit's ANDY!
[08:59] <Andrew_M6GTG> morning Steve
[08:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi Mate
[09:00] <Andrew_M6GTG> hows tricks?
[09:00] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cool, Leo is just doing a post-fly'em on B-27
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[09:01] <Andrew_M6GTG> saw it had suddenly lost altitude and ditched?
[09:02] <LeoBodnar> Yeah it burst
[09:02] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, sadly didn't make the Eu coast
[09:02] <DL1SGP> yeah shame on it
[09:02] <DL1SGP> :D
[09:02] <fsphil> what kind of netting are you using, or are you varying it each time?
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[09:02] <Steve_G0TDJ> Poor Felix is busting to track one of ours ;-)
[09:02] <Andrew_M6GTG> so the netted latex, is the net to constrain the balloon to prevent it bursting and make it float?
[09:03] <DL1SGP> it's fine there are plenty of other RF enabled objects to track in air and orbit :)
[09:03] <LeoBodnar> It wasn't netted latex, it was a flying foil sausage
[09:03] <Andrew_M6GTG> don't prick the sausages is what I've been told.. ;-)
[09:04] <daveake> when you ay sausage ....
[09:04] <daveake> s
[09:04] <DL1SGP> Steve_G0TDJ: thinking of yesterday that makes it totally possible that he went to debenhams lady's section and asked for stockings for his flying sausage :D
[09:04] <Steve_G0TDJ> ROTFL :D
[09:05] <Andrew_M6GTG> to stop it swelling and bursting?
[09:05] <DL1SGP> but no water based lubricant to make it glide through air more easily, that stuff would freeze
[09:06] <Andrew_M6GTG> on a more serious note, when you preform tests and get data on the tracker do you ask for it to be removed or is it done automatically?
[09:07] <fsphil> it's done manually. you can ask, or someone might just clear it if they see it
[09:08] <Andrew_M6GTG> thanks, pretty obvious test as most balloon flights don't follow the Newark ringroad ;-)
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[09:08] <fsphil> hah
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[09:09] <DL1SGP> heh
[09:10] <Steve_G0TDJ> Did you do a mobile test Andy?
[09:11] <Andrew_M6GTG> playing backing a GPS capture when out driving, the mobile test is tonight hopefully
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[09:11] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cool.
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[09:12] <Andrew_M6GTG> still no GPS module yet, so having to feed serial data from the netbook
[09:13] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, I think the post is a little slow. Maybe the time of year? Still waiting for my boards.
[09:16] <Andrew_M6GTG> ordered a sensor pack yesterday.. maybe not for a payload but who knows gyro/accelerometer/compass/pressure/temp ;-)
[09:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> Have they got headers for easy connection? There's some challenging packages around.
[09:24] <Steve_G0TDJ> Gotta go AFK for a bit - BBL
[09:24] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ -> Steve_G0TDJ_AFK
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[09:46] <Hix> found this for those of you who use the Pi [not for HAB] http://goo.gl/EcKzbI
[09:47] <Hix> and am also looking at an IP67 rated enclosure for Pi, possibly as a kickstarter, if anyone is interested in that too
[09:49] <LeoBodnar> Will it not cook itself in IP67?
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[09:51] <Hix> was thinking of using the case as a heatsink too
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[09:55] <fsphil> the Pi has an LCD interface built in, hopefully they make a screen for that soon
[10:04] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
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[10:33] <Hix> http://i.imgur.com/rPQWyhn.png busy morning in the office :)
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[10:37] <fsphil> inaccurate. that Pi has a much better SD socket than the real one :)
[10:39] <Hix> heh
[10:40] <Hix> CAD is too accurate compared to the real world most of the time
[10:43] <mattbrejza> 'Bill says he has video of the event but cannot share it because of the islands slow internet connection.'
[10:43] <LazyLeopard> There's a question in the RSGB discussion on airborne use asking about power levels, and requesting responses from HAB folks...
[10:43] <mattbrejza> event = goce breakup
[10:46] <fsphil> bill lives in Brightwalton?
[10:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> :)
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[10:47] <eroomde> mattbrejza, who is bill?
[10:47] <mattbrejza> some bloke in the falklands
[10:48] <fsphil> he's posted some pics
[10:48] <mattbrejza> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24907261
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[11:10] <eroomde> cool, thanks mattbrejza
[11:10] <mattbrejza> np
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[11:41] <nats`> hi
[11:42] <DL7AD> good afternoon
[11:42] <nats`> yep good afternoon :)
[11:42] <nats`> but holiday so mornin and afternoon don't mean anything \o/
[11:42] <nats`> :D
[11:42] <x-f> it is always morning on IRC
[11:43] <eroomde> yes
[11:43] <fsphil> this a new rule? I like it
[11:43] <nats`> I need to find an rf splitter to test my new antenna
[11:43] <nats`> fsphil new since 197X
[11:43] <eroomde> this channel is also an eternal september
[11:43] <nats`> :D
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[11:46] <tjanos> good afternoon! what we can think about the last position of SP3OSJ?
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[11:51] <nats`> playing with chipscope...
[11:51] <nats`> they did a great job on last version of that crap
[11:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> Seems to be a single rogue report, the data from habitat shows it approachng Mallorca at 06:xx then nothing else
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[11:54] <fsphil> someone has played back a recording from the looks of it
[11:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> tjanos, See http://360.g8dhe.net\HAB_Flights\SP3OSJ Data Export.kmz
[11:54] <tjanos> It seems me there is a repwted position report near Munich, maybe with bad time stamp...
[11:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> tjanos, See http://360.g8dhe.net\HAB_Flights\SP3OSJ%20Data%20Export.kmz
[11:55] <tjanos> Thanks, now I must go out....
[11:58] <fsphil> removed it now
[12:02] <SP3OSJ> http://s18.postimg.org/jtm84t5qx/P1000962.jpg
[12:02] <fsphil> you're not going to lose that radio
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[12:06] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[12:07] <jcoxon> morning all
[12:09] <fsphil> morn
[12:09] <DL7AD> afternoon jcoxon
[12:15] Action: jcoxon is stateside
[12:15] <fsphil> intentionally?
[12:16] <db_g6gzh> that would be an impressive accident
[12:16] <fsphil> ah you're in the big apple
[12:16] Action: fsphil did a whois
[12:17] <fsphil> on my list of places to see but probably won't
[12:17] <jcoxon> yeah, holiday for a week
[12:17] <fsphil> nice
[12:18] <jcoxon> its good fun (for a short trip)
[12:18] <fsphil> what are the locals like? I've heard they can be quite abrupt
[12:18] <jcoxon> yeah, but if you are just being a bit touristy thats okay
[12:19] <fsphil> what's the weather like?
[12:20] <jcoxon> they say its going to get cold today
[12:20] <jcoxon> 6C max
[12:20] <fsphil> not to far of here
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> MAX+6C?
[12:21] <jcoxon> yup
[12:22] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar: any pictures of B-27 balloon
[12:22] <jcoxon> ?
[12:24] <SP3OSJ> Max7C
[12:26] <fsphil> oh yea, where there any pics of the netted latex balloon?
[12:27] <DL1SGP> fsphil the netted latex is visible on the recovery pictures, I can look up the link
[12:27] <DL1SGP> yesterday flight was a foil sausage :D
[12:27] <DL1SGP> at least as to info from LeoBodnar
[12:28] <DL1SGP> (5:31:37 PM) PE2G: Here are some pics of the B-26 recovery: http://tinyurl.com/qaxv5yr
[12:28] <fsphil> thanks
[12:29] <DL7AD> *thumbs up*
[12:29] <fsphil> nice
[12:29] <fsphil> black balloon
[12:29] <fsphil> never seen that before
[12:30] <DL7AD> leo wanted to hide it in the night ^^
[12:30] <LeoBodnar> B-27 was a foils sausage
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[12:31] <LeoBodnar> trying to find some pics
[12:37] <SP3OSJ_> LeoBodnar : what a balloon B-26?
[12:37] <SP3OSJ_> these are the two balloons?
[12:41] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[12:42] <LeoBodnar> Beauty http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-27/sausage.jpg
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[12:44] <SP3OSJ_> Leo: What is this?
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[12:45] <craag> wow
[12:45] <x-f> ooh, you made a balloon!
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[12:46] <fsphil> if you made that a bit longer you might be able to operate it as a zero pressure balloon
[12:47] <LeoBodnar> I had too much free lift and cowboy spirit when it came to seals so it burst
[12:49] <Reb-SM3ULC> well, more experience gained!
[12:49] <LeoBodnar> Need to practice and come up with a plan
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[12:53] <Babs> ping hix
[12:53] <Babs> or hixwork for that matter
[12:53] <Babs> bonjour habbers, top 'o' the morning etc.
[12:53] <Hix> yo Babs
[12:53] <Babs> yo yo. pm.
[12:55] <PE2G> LeoBodnar: the wrinkled foil has the potential to collect water, snow
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[12:59] <SP3OSJ_> Leo is aluminum foil, whether it is a balloon?
[13:00] <SP3OSJ_> If the balloon is her name? BigLeo
[13:02] <DL7AD> ?
[13:02] <SP3OSJ_> This is a garbage bag (big-bag)
[13:02] <SP3OSJ_> second computer
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[13:22] <LeoBodnar> PE2G: there should be no water or snow where I want it to go
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[13:25] <PE2G> LeoBodnar: On its way up there, it could pass alts with moisture, I think
[13:27] <LeoBodnar> Needs careful launch planning
[13:28] <DL1SGP> yes moin LeoBodnar :)
[13:28] <LeoBodnar> moin moin
[13:28] <DL1SGP> lovely picture, looks like you put on a foil costume and jumped to ceiling ^^
[13:29] <LeoBodnar> I was tempted to draw Casper face on it
[13:30] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298: is there something wrong with the server? Can't load the site up
[13:31] <LeoBodnar> Too many points
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[13:32] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: might me, I shall look.
[13:32] <ibanezmatt13> thanks
[13:34] <mfa298> I've just told the server to reboot as I can't access it.
[13:34] <ibanezmatt13> ah, strange
[13:35] <mfa298> the monitoring graphs I can see for it suggest the CPU went mental sometime yesterday :|
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> oh dear
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> NORB is down! I repeat, NORB is down!
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[13:37] <ibanezmatt13> NORB is up! :d
[13:38] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ_AFK -> Steve_G0TDJ
[13:38] <Steve_G0TDJ> Eh? What? Where?
[13:39] <Steve_G0TDJ> 'Afternoon Chaps
[13:39] <ibanezmatt13> Website, don't panic :)
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[13:39] <Steve_G0TDJ> Ah OK
[13:41] <G8APZ> Steve_G0TDJ Is this highlighted?
[13:41] <Steve_G0TDJ> Well it pinged me, yes.
[13:41] <Steve_G0TDJ> And your callsing is in red
[13:41] <Steve_G0TDJ> Like G8APZ
[13:42] <G8APZ> OK thanks! Looks as if Leo's B-27 ditched last night?
[13:42] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, sadly.
[13:42] <Steve_G0TDJ> Slow decline into the water
[13:42] <DL1SGP> nods
[13:42] <DL1SGP> it still was fun!
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[13:42] <G8APZ> it's telemetry was almost too hard to capture!
[13:43] <DL1SGP> G8APZ: pciture of it http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-27/sausage.jpg
[13:43] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, fun and slightly agraviating :D
[13:43] <Steve_G0TDJ> Can't spell
[13:43] <Steve_G0TDJ> agrivating
[13:43] <G8APZ> Oh! Is Leo making his own envelopes?
[13:43] <DL1SGP> sausages
[13:43] <DL1SGP> :D
[13:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> Dunno about sausage :-/
[13:44] <G8APZ> Wurst? !!!
[13:45] <DL1SGP> yeah for BBQ it is "Bratwurst"
[13:45] <DL1SGP> you can get them on Xmas-Markets in UK at funny prices :)
[13:45] <DL1SGP> easier to get them at Lidl and bbq yourself :P
[13:48] <G8APZ> DL1SGP I have a butcher near me who won the National Sausage Champion a few years ago... I prefer them!!
[13:48] <DL1SGP> good choice G8APZ
[13:49] <LeoBodnar> G8APZ: the payload temperature had gone down to -59C
[13:49] <G8APZ> The Supreme Winner of the National Sausage Championship
[13:50] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar Yes I was watching that... it was difficult to read the telem as the TX was drifting LF about 10Hz every blip!
[13:51] <LeoBodnar> Yeah, at these temperatures payload should be designed differently
[13:52] <LeoBodnar> I am gradually getting into big boy's altitudes.
[13:52] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar I tracked it as far as crossing the coast near Southwold but the first packet almost decoded entirely, the drift was so bad that the second did not. There is not enough time to retune between telemetry blocks!
[13:52] <LeoBodnar> 13km is my personal best so far
[13:53] <mattbrejza> first time youve put your flight mode code to the test
[13:53] <daveake> :)
[13:53] <LeoBodnar> Lol took 27 flights for that
[13:53] <Hix> I fear the wurst
[13:53] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar perhaps a few bips countdown to the 2nd block would help.
[13:54] <LeoBodnar> I am a bit slow on the uptake
[13:55] <LeoBodnar> So how the drift was developing and what made reception difficlult? Speed of drift or getting out of the RX band strip
[13:56] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar I took some screen grabs I can send you the sig was going LF for most of the time but as it descended the sigs went HF and back to .500
[13:56] <LeoBodnar> I have a suspicion that TCXO becomes mental when it gets out of its specified compensated temperature inteval
[13:57] <LeoBodnar> Yes, please send them to leo@leobodnar.com
[13:57] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar What made it hard was that as the telemetry blocks were sent, the drift was very rapid HF and the end of a block was out of the red bar on the waterfall
[13:58] <LeoBodnar> I see
[14:01] <G8APZ> I'll go and send the screen grabs... back soon
[14:03] <LeoBodnar> thanks
[14:04] <eroomde> what's new
[14:04] <tweetBot> @daveake: I'm presenting on HAB at Harwell Radio Society this evening http://t.co/Oa2QH42AwS #UKHAS
[14:07] <eroomde> not too far from me daveake
[14:07] <daveake> You're very welcome :-), just so long as you don't heckle :)
[14:08] <eroomde> am going to a show unfort
[14:08] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: did you build ZP before?
[14:08] <eroomde> yep
[14:08] <DL1SGP> eroomde: ask about insurance :)
[14:09] <eroomde> The 'I' word
[14:10] <LeoBodnar> I guess ZP balloon seams are not as critical as SP balloons ones?
[14:10] <LeoBodnar> Or envelope stress from the payload is still high?
[14:11] <eroomde> yes much less critical
[14:11] <eroomde> fairly easy to do
[14:11] <eroomde> SP on the other hand
[14:11] <Babs> eroomde - some good news
[14:11] <LeoBodnar> Tempting to go for sky anchor instead of SP
[14:11] <eroomde> there is a very good paper wich i worked through a few years ago on SP balloon design and stressing
[14:11] <Babs> i have thought of an awesome new HAB experiment
[14:11] <eroomde> it basically solves the design problem
[14:12] <LeoBodnar> Where is it?
[14:12] <eroomde> but makes no mention of practical manufacturing techniques
[14:12] <eroomde> the takeaway is the for small diameters, a sphere is optimum as the sahpe, with say 8 goes
[14:12] <eroomde> the problem is was solving was bistable structures (i.e. avoiding kinks and folds) in the huge pumpkin balloons, which are the optimum shape for large diameter
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> THat's understandable, pumpkin is new teardrop for small SPs
[14:13] <eroomde> one sec will try and find it
[14:13] <eroomde> Babs, shoot
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> I thought I read abstract somewhere
[14:13] <Babs> http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-05/smallest-atomic-clock-ever-now-sale
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> but my memory is patchy
[14:13] <Babs> just need $3000 to buy two of them and then test Einsteins general theory of relativity
[14:14] <eroomde> someone did that on hackaday
[14:14] <Babs> DAMN. everyone has done these things before me.
[14:14] <eroomde> for a family vacation, took two cesium clocks, put one at the bottom of a mountain and the other at the top
[14:14] <eroomde> compared them a week later
[14:14] <Babs> ahh, but not in a HAB
[14:15] <eroomde> i think it was this one LeoBodnar http://pellegrino.caltech.edu/PUBLICATIONS/A%20Technique%20to%20Predict%20Clefting%202011.pdf
[14:15] <Babs> as one could fly something this small. i saw the caesium clock mountain thing, but it looked large
[14:15] <eroomde> the summary at our scale was just make it spherical
[14:15] <eroomde> and do a good job making it
[14:17] <LeoBodnar> I remember a lot of research was put into S-clefting on large SPs
[14:18] <LeoBodnar> I assume this stops them reaching predicted altitude
[14:18] <eroomde> yeah
[14:19] <eroomde> i just onder what the answer is to the question of how to make these things well
[14:19] <LeoBodnar> I'll let you know when I have figured it out
[14:19] <eroomde> :)
[14:20] <LeoBodnar> XD
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: It's dangerous buisness. Making balloones can get you gored.
[14:20] <tweetBot> @AMSAT_UK: Amateur Radio Balloon on 7, 10 and 14 MHz http://t.co/XV3imm1Tbd #amsat #hamr #ukhas #hab
[14:21] <fsphil> ooh THOR4
[14:23] <eroomde> with a depressing inevitability, hollywood will provide
[14:24] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar Sorry Leo, I can't find any of the B-27 flight, only the HABLAB and XABEN ones... I must have been too occupied with tuning!
[14:24] <LeoBodnar> Thanks Ed, I have seen it before but skimmed only. In fact the whole directory was very useful find!
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[14:25] <eroomde> pelegrino did a lot of interesting work in this area
[14:25] <eroomde> he used to run the deployable structure lab at cambridge before he went to caltech
[14:26] <LeoBodnar> Aha
[14:26] <eroomde> and indeed when the deployable structures lab abandoned, CUSF moved into it a year later to squat before it was reused for something ese
[14:26] <eroomde> it also had next to it a room with an autoclave, which made us all very happy
[14:26] <adamgreig> oh about that autoclave
[14:26] <adamgreig> we've been promised re-access to it
[14:27] <eroomde> adamgreig, the reaction of a student having the matrix inversion lemma explained to them
[14:27] <adamgreig> apparently the terms of sale when they got rid of it included a chunk of hours per month for the uni
[14:27] <eroomde> thusly:
[14:27] <eroomde> ok
[14:27] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[14:27] <eroomde> ok...
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[14:27] <eroomde> .... o... k
[14:27] <eroomde> um, sure
[14:27] <eroomde> .... if you say so ....
[14:28] <eroomde> WTF
[14:28] <adamgreig> hah
[14:28] <adamgreig> sounds about right
[14:29] <eroomde> it encapsulates everything i find annoying about linear algebra
[14:29] <eroomde> which is mostly setneces like
[14:30] <eroomde> 'Suppose we take a Matrix P where P = A' - BCB^TA^H - K(I-K)
[14:30] <G8APZ> and suppose we don't!
[14:30] <adamgreig> "oh of course, why didn't I think of taking that particular P"
[14:30] <eroomde> i'm willing to believe it, but i mean who the hell gets the intuition to try that out in the first place
[14:31] <adamgreig> one imagines the intuition comes elsewise
[14:31] <eroomde> yes
[14:31] <eroomde> but no one will tell you how
[14:31] <adamgreig> of course not
[14:31] <adamgreig> here to remember formulas, not learn maths
[14:31] <eroomde> well exactly, that's what's so frustrating
[14:32] <eroomde> i can kind of see the motivation for it, where you can find the inverse of a matrix by actually finding the inverse of a much smaller matrix by doing a bunch of manipulation
[14:33] <eroomde> and that rings bells for undergrad in terms of the SVD
[14:33] <eroomde> but just the actual algebra seems like there should be some kind of way it to understanding why, but I can't see one
[14:33] <adamgreig> well yea it's used all over. kalman filter too?
[14:33] <eroomde> yes
[14:34] <adamgreig> but yes, good luck finding the intuition
[14:34] <eroomde> it's why the kalman filter is a particularly computationally efficient instance of a bayesian filter
[14:34] <adamgreig> mm
[14:34] <adamgreig> sometimes it's like sausages. best you don't know how it came about
[14:34] <adamgreig> trellis decoding was a sidenote in an appendix used to prove some upper bound on some other quantity, and used incorrectly as it turned out
[14:34] <adamgreig> someone was like "hang on, this is wrong, but that algorithm is cute"
[14:35] <adamgreig> and it finds the ML estimate in generally hugely reduced computational complexity
[14:35] <fsphil> cute?
[14:35] <adamgreig> trellis decoding is pretty cute
[14:35] <adamgreig> the trellis diagrams are pretty
[14:36] <eroomde> but just accepting it as an incantation is annoying
[14:36] <eroomde> might aswell be practicing witchcraft
[14:36] <fsphil> yea just looking at the diagram
[14:36] <eroomde> fsphil, you will love trellis coding/decoing
[14:36] <eroomde> viterbi decoding etc
[14:37] <adamgreig> right. it was viterbi's paper that had this in the appendix and now it bears his name and made him heaps and heaps of cash
[14:40] <eroomde> well, he co-founded qualcomm
[14:40] <eroomde> that also made him lots of money
[14:40] <adamgreig> :P
[14:40] <fsphil> yea they've done rather well for themselves
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[15:12] <mattbrejza> UpuWork: around?
[15:16] <UpuWork> hi mattbrejza
[15:17] <mattbrejza> whats the reason for speaking to you regarding ntx2bs?
[15:18] <Laurenceb> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=undefined%20reference%20to%20_sbrk
[15:18] <Laurenceb> rofl
[15:22] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-27/sausage.jpg
[15:22] <Laurenceb> what the hell
[15:22] <Laurenceb> oh
[15:23] <Laurenceb> its some tube?
[15:23] <Laurenceb> nice
[15:23] <Laurenceb> did it burst due to pressure?
[15:23] <LeoBodnar> I think so, too much free lift
[15:23] <Laurenceb> interesting
[15:23] <LeoBodnar> It was going up at 2m/s
[15:23] <Laurenceb> i have loads of kit at work that would be useful for this stuff
[15:24] <LeoBodnar> Overstirked it a bit
[15:24] <Laurenceb> are you able to do burst pressure tests?
[15:24] <LeoBodnar> NOt atm.
[15:24] <Laurenceb> i have pump kit that might be useful if you want to do tests
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[15:24] <UpuWork> Laurenceb this is what that balloon looks like from the front : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MR-WILLY-30-HELIUM-FOIL-BALLOON-HEN-NIGHT-PARTY-ACCESSORIES-PARTY-BAG-FAVOUR-/111148207483?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Make_Up_Cosmetics_Foundation_PP&hash=item19e0f30d7b
[15:25] <LeoBodnar> Definitely, need a controlled test strategy
[15:25] <Laurenceb> haha
[15:25] <UpuWork> did you make that yourself LeoBodnar ?
[15:25] <Laurenceb> this morning i did a john carmack
[15:26] <Laurenceb> set a breakpoint in some pneumatics control code....
[15:26] <fsphil> open sourced a 3D game engine?
[15:26] <Laurenceb> "why do i smell burning"
[15:26] <Laurenceb> fried all my solenoid valves
[15:26] <fsphil> the term breakpoint shouldn't be taken literally
[15:26] <Laurenceb> haha
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: oops.
[15:27] <Laurenceb> yeah armadillo aerospace trashed one of their rockets just like this
[15:28] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: whats the total mass of that thing?
[15:29] <LeoBodnar> Yes UpuWork
[15:29] <LeoBodnar> 100g
[15:29] <Laurenceb> so about 100L
[15:29] <Laurenceb> max
[15:30] <Laurenceb> i have pumps spare that do about 1L/sec
[15:30] <Laurenceb> */minute
[15:30] <Laurenceb> might be good enough
[15:30] <LeoBodnar> 520l
[15:30] <Laurenceb> oh yeah
[15:30] <Laurenceb> total volume :P
[15:31] <LeoBodnar> Yeah at burst point
[15:31] <Laurenceb> not so easy with small pumps
[15:31] <LeoBodnar> Do they overheat?
[15:31] <Laurenceb> i guess you could inflate it with something else
[15:31] <Laurenceb> no, you just have to wait all day
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[15:31] <Laurenceb> so i guess inflate with another pump first
[15:32] <LeoBodnar> Well seams are stronger than material itself, it's just non-uniform stress distribution that makes it split
[15:32] <Laurenceb> i could probably rig up a leak/burst characterisation system with the kit i have here
[15:32] <Laurenceb> would that be useful?
[15:32] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:32] <LeoBodnar> So for seams technique perfection smaller models can be built
[15:33] <LeoBodnar> sure!
[15:33] <Laurenceb> in fact...
[15:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Omron-Classic-Upper-Pressure-Monitor/dp/B0033B0HYC/ref=sr_1_3?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1384270422&sr=1-3&keywords=omron+monitor
[15:34] <Laurenceb> somewhere i have some custom control boards for putting in those things
[15:34] <Laurenceb> and that has a rather better pump
[15:34] <Laurenceb> ill have a play with some firmware when i get time
[15:34] <LeoBodnar> Does it use standard pressure gauge?
[15:35] <Laurenceb> its an omron 2smpp-02
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[15:35] <Laurenceb> http://gb.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=3P%252bcriiv584EfFf%252bLos22A==
[15:35] <LeoBodnar> Make a balloon pressure tester :D
[15:35] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:36] <LeoBodnar> Not sure how to deal with the inflation orifice though
[15:36] <Laurenceb> i have access to a blood pressure cuff assembly line :P
[15:36] <LeoBodnar> I heatseal balloon after inflation
[15:36] <Laurenceb> lots of useful pneumatics
[15:38] <LeoBodnar> spoilt
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[16:06] <Laurenceb> but im too busy for the foreseeable future :-/
[16:07] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: why not buy an omron M2 and modify it
[16:07] <Laurenceb> should be doable
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[16:09] <LeoBodnar> Where do you get them from?
[16:09] <Laurenceb> amazon :D
[16:10] <Laurenceb> im not sure how to do the modifications
[16:10] <LeoBodnar> ok, nvm
[16:10] <Laurenceb> you want to be able to keep the calibration
[16:11] <Laurenceb> maybe hook a multimeter up to the ADC input on the micro and read the numbers off the LCD
[16:11] <Laurenceb> on the blood pressure meter
[16:11] <Laurenceb> then you know the scale factor
[16:13] Nick change: MichaelC1 -> MichaelC
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[16:21] <LeoBodnar> How much pressure can they produce? Is there a significant back-flow? How much current do they drain? Do they work at -50C?
[16:21] <Laurenceb> heh
[16:22] <Laurenceb> i doubt its work at -50
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[16:22] <Laurenceb> the omron thingies have a calibrated leak
[16:22] <Laurenceb> about 2ml/second
[16:22] <Laurenceb> but it could be sealed, in which case id guess about 0.5ml/second at 6psi
[16:22] <Laurenceb> max pressure is about 6 to 8psi
[16:23] <Laurenceb> and current is a few hundered ma with the pump running full pelt
[16:23] <Laurenceb> uh oh
[16:23] <Laurenceb> i think i know what you are thinking
[16:23] <LeoBodnar> Yeah
[16:23] <Laurenceb> outer envelope inflated with pump
[16:23] <Laurenceb> lolz
[16:23] <Laurenceb> that might even work
[16:23] <LeoBodnar> Lightweight pressure container
[16:24] <LeoBodnar> To suck overpressure during the day
[16:24] <DL1SGP> that sucks :)
[16:24] <Laurenceb> might even be possible to pressure cycle to break off ice and control altitude
[16:24] <DL1SGP> and sounds interesting!
[16:24] <LeoBodnar> Uhu
[16:24] <LeoBodnar> Lightweight pressure container = bear can
[16:25] <LeoBodnar> beer
[16:25] <LeoBodnar> daveake is fiddling with my neurons
[16:26] <Laurenceb> http://ph.parker.com/us/en/air-gas-and-liquid-pumps
[16:26] <Laurenceb> http://ph.parker.com/us/12051/en/t2-05-micro-diaphragm-pumps-air-gas-up-to-800-mlpm
[16:27] <Laurenceb> i have some of those - they draw 80mA @ 3.3v
[16:27] <SpeedEvil> Or for up to 200mB - there is a rather easier way
[16:27] <LeoBodnar> You only need to control a few grams worth of helium to control buoyancy
[16:27] <SpeedEvil> A water u-loop manometer
[16:27] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:27] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I thought the discussionwas still on burst pressure
[16:27] <SpeedEvil> oops.
[16:27] Action: SpeedEvil should readmore scroll.
[16:27] <Laurenceb> i was thinking an outer pressure envelope
[16:27] <LeoBodnar> keep up! :D
[16:27] <Laurenceb> then an inner helium container
[16:27] <Laurenceb> made of thin polythene
[16:27] <Laurenceb> outer envelope inflated with air from pump
[16:28] <LeoBodnar> The whole beer can thingy can be sealed inside the main envelope
[16:28] <Laurenceb> id worry about leakage
[16:28] <LeoBodnar> Have some extra helium on launch for that
[16:28] <Laurenceb> maybe a custom made silicone flap valve would fix that
[16:29] <LeoBodnar> Leakage from the pressure canister into the envelope?
[16:29] <Laurenceb> oh i see your idea
[16:29] <Laurenceb> hmm
[16:29] <Laurenceb> a pop bottle would need a high pressure pump
[16:30] <Laurenceb> http://ph.parker.com/us/12051/en/t2-04-miniature-diaphragm-pump
[16:30] <LeoBodnar> It can also be sucked out slightly below atmospheric
[16:30] <Laurenceb> its hard to get above 12psi in lightweight stuff
[16:31] <LeoBodnar> I wonder if weight figures stack up for this
[16:31] <LeoBodnar> It needs to pressurise during the day -> solar power
[16:32] <Laurenceb> i think phase change techniques are more sane
[16:32] <LeoBodnar> small freon cycle?
[16:32] <Laurenceb> or some sort of butane + heater
[16:33] <Laurenceb> but that ended up using too much energy
[16:33] <LeoBodnar> It's more to control overpressure during the day
[16:34] <Laurenceb> id try a stand off layer of reflective mylar
[16:34] <Laurenceb> to lower the solar overheating
[16:35] <Laurenceb> use some bits of balsa or styrofoam to hold the mylar off the surface of the balloon
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> On a wackier idea.
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> Add a little water, and have a salt inside which is almost hyperscopic
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> moderate heating of the salt will drive off the water
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> http://intraweb.stockton.edu/eyos/energy_studies/content/docs/effstock09/Session_6_2_Thermochemical_storage/49.pdf
[16:38] <Laurenceb> interesting
[16:38] <Laurenceb> so when it gets hotter it gets more lift
[16:38] <Laurenceb> i guess that makes it stable against tropospheric temperature gradient
[16:39] <LeoBodnar> Salt precipitates ice crystal growth
[16:39] <LeoBodnar> But the air might be too dry for that
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[16:39] <LeoBodnar> Unless we are talking at below 10k stuff
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> I was.
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> Sorry.
[16:40] <LeoBodnar> Ah, sorry, I am not keeping up :D
[16:40] <LeoBodnar> Does silicagel work same way?
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> Broadly, yes.
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> But I don't think it absorbs so much
[16:46] <Laurenceb> interesting pdf
[16:49] <Babs> cool image from Cassini-Huygens http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA14949
[16:51] <OH7HJ-1> Did the B-27 foil burst too early?
[16:53] <OH7HJ-1> It did rise high, a promising start!
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[16:56] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Quite. I'm wondering where to get CaCl cheap.
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> ^eight tons of
[16:56] <Laurenceb> heh
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[16:57] <Laurenceb> cheesemakers?
[16:58] <ibanezmatt13> really simple Q I just need to clarify. The sigma symbol £ meaning "sum of" ... If I had an array of x values and an array of y values, and I had to work out £xy - would I multiply element 0 of x with element 0 of y, and keep doing so until I had a xy for each element, and THEN would I add all those up?
[16:58] <adamgreig> uhm
[16:58] <adamgreig> it depends exactly
[16:59] <adamgreig> on what's under the sigma
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> xy
[16:59] <adamgreig> then you want the sum of all possible products, typically
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> that's what I thought
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> just making sure :)
[16:59] <adamgreig> say x=[0,1,2] and y=[4,5] you want 0*4 + 0*5 + 1*4 + 1*5 + 2*4 + 2*5
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> thanks
[16:59] <adamgreig> yep
[17:00] <ibanezmatt13> that's the most stupid question :P
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[17:10] <ibanezmatt13> adamgreig, I've just applied some stats stuff to some results I got for resistance vs length in an experiment. On the graph I plotted, the correlation between the two look really strong, the line of best fit goes through most of the points. However, I've just calculated the product moment correlation coefficient to be around 0.68. In the grand scheme of things, is r = 0.68 a decent correlation or not?
[17:10] <adamgreig> it's not super
[17:10] <ibanezmatt13> didn't think so
[17:10] <adamgreig> I'd expect better for resistance vs length unless you are terrible at experimental accuracy
[17:10] <adamgreig> like .95 or so
[17:11] <adamgreig> run your data through a known good piece of code (like scipy) to check if I were you
[17:11] <adamgreig> or just check your working
[17:11] <ibanezmatt13> hmm, yeah I'll check the working
[17:12] <ibanezmatt13> ah adamgreig, the calculator suggests that the actual coefficient is 0.997 :)
[17:12] <ibanezmatt13> oops
[17:13] <ibanezmatt13> at least my experimental accuracy is ok
[17:14] <ibanezmatt13> I've used to correct method to calculate the co-variances for the dataset. Not a clue what the problem with my working is. Ah well
[17:14] <ibanezmatt13> the*
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[17:37] <ibanezmatt13> calculator says otherwise, here's my working: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj18doEEMk9hdFkwVnRvektOeXpNaGl0SnB6NnpVclE&usp=sharing
[17:37] <ibanezmatt13> It's wrong, but I can't see where :/
[17:38] <ibanezmatt13> adamgreig
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[17:45] <ibanezmatt13> It's all well and good tapping the data in to a calculator and having it spit out the answer, but seen as I've learned the formulas, I'd like to get it right without the calculator
[17:46] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
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[18:06] <adamgreig> sorry ibanezmatt13, was heading home. looking now
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[18:06] <ibanezmatt13> no probs :)
[18:06] <ibanezmatt13> thanks
[18:07] <ibanezmatt13> I don't even know what co-variances actually area or what that even means. I'm just regurgitating the formulas we learned today.
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[18:07] <ibanezmatt13> are*
[18:09] <adamgreig> ugh now I remember why I don't do this by hand
[18:10] <adamgreig> it's a bit of a mess really
[18:10] <ibanezmatt13> lol, sure is
[18:10] <ibanezmatt13> did it on a calculator in 1 minute
[18:10] <ibanezmatt13> but it's still good to know the formulas and how they work just in case they don't give you the raw data
[18:10] <adamgreig> yea
[18:11] <ibanezmatt13> and it's not *that* bad, I must have just messed up a value somewhere. Just can't find what I've done :P
[18:12] <adamgreig> why do you have L² and R² typed in by hand rather than as formula on the spreadsheet?
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> I only remembered to start using formulas on the spreadsheet after I was half way through R^2
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[18:13] <DL1SGP> smiles
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[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> cries
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[18:14] <adamgreig> is sigma L (sLL) really sum LL - bla?
[18:14] <adamgreig> Var[X] = E[X²] - E[X]²
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[18:14] <adamgreig> not quite sure you've got that
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> ok, the S in sLL, is the co-variance of LL
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> or something like that
[18:15] <adamgreig> the 's' is short for 'sigma' I imagine
[18:15] <ibanezmatt13> I think so
[18:15] <adamgreig> and co-variance of LL is the variance of L
[18:15] <ibanezmatt13> Written as big S, and LL on the bottom of it.
[18:15] <ibanezmatt13> oh right
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[18:30] <ibanezmatt13> any further forward adamgreig? :/
[18:32] <adamgreig> still checking
[18:33] <adamgreig> I get .997
[18:33] <adamgreig> doing it from first principles by hand
[18:33] <ibanezmatt13> that's the right answer
[18:33] <ibanezmatt13> according to the calculator
[18:33] <adamgreig> great
[18:33] <ibanezmatt13> how did I go wrong?
[18:33] <adamgreig> not sure yet :P
[18:33] <ibanezmatt13> ok :)
[18:33] <adamgreig> I'll quickly explain what I did
[18:33] <adamgreig> inc ase you spot it
[18:33] <adamgreig> then try to see
[18:33] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[18:34] <ibanezmatt13> Bear in mind we've only had 2 lessons of stats
[18:34] <adamgreig> anyway r=Cov[R,L] / sqrt(Var[R] * Var[L])
[18:34] <adamgreig> that's how it's defined, and it makes sense, it's how big the covariance is compared to the individual variances
[18:34] <adamgreig> like a normalised covariance (independent of the actual size of the numbers)
[18:34] <ibanezmatt13> I don't fully understand what variance and covariance actually is, but ok
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[18:35] <adamgreig> generally the variance is like, how spread out some data is, and the covariance is how much a change in one set of data changes the other
[18:35] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok
[18:35] <adamgreig> so e.g. if the covariance is 0, the things have no effect on each other, like the height of my glass here vs the amount of rain in texas
[18:35] <ibanezmatt13> ah right
[18:35] <adamgreig> brb one sec kitchen incident
[18:36] <ibanezmatt13> :o
[18:36] <DL1SGP> uh oh
[18:36] <ibanezmatt13> I understand that formula you used. I used it in mine, you can see on the spreadsheet. Perhaps my covariances were incorrect
[18:36] <adamgreig> back
[18:36] <adamgreig> right so yea I think they were
[18:36] <ibanezmatt13> ooh wait!
[18:36] <adamgreig> I'm especially unconvinced by where you have like
[18:36] <fsphil> man, wish I'd kept at maths at school
[18:37] <ibanezmatt13> I've spotted it
[18:37] <adamgreig> sRR = sum RR - n(R-bar)²
[18:37] <adamgreig> the basic definitions are simple enough
[18:37] <adamgreig> Var[X] = E[X²] - E[X]²
[18:37] <adamgreig> E[.] means sum(.)/len(.)
[18:37] <adamgreig> so like, sum(R)/8 here
[18:37] <adamgreig> or sum(R²)/8 for E[X²]
[18:37] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[18:37] <adamgreig> so you can work those out easy peasy
[18:37] <ibanezmatt13> adamgreig: I DIDN'T SQUARE ROOT THE (Var[R] * Var[L]) ! :D
[18:38] <adamgreig> the Cov is similar: Cov[X, Y] = E[XY] - E[X]E[Y]
[18:38] <adamgreig> aaaah
[18:38] <adamgreig> nice
[18:38] <adamgreig> well no
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> brb, incident
[18:38] <adamgreig> because I didn't square root it the first time and got like 6 as my correlation coefficient
[18:38] <LeoBodnar> is anything flying tonight?
[18:38] <adamgreig> not .6
[18:38] <adamgreig> but maybe your equations worked out different when you forgot to do that ;)
[18:38] <adamgreig> aha!
[18:38] <adamgreig> yes that's it
[18:38] <DL1SGP> We do not know yet LeoBodnar, there is a guy here who announces his flights through putting them on the map only
[18:39] <adamgreig> yea ibanezmatt13 your definitions are a bit weird but work out
[18:39] <adamgreig> the sqrt is indeed the issue
[18:39] <adamgreig> well spotted :P
[18:39] <ibanezmatt13> lol, awesome.
[18:39] <ibanezmatt13> definitions are wierd?
[18:39] <LeoBodnar> I'll have a word with him
[18:40] <DL1SGP> lol
[18:40] <ibanezmatt13> thanks for assisting adamgreig. Could you elaborate on why my definitions are wierd? :)
[18:40] <ibanezmatt13> you mean I've just not quite grasped what everything means yet or something
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[18:42] <ibanezmatt13> I'm really pleased that I got that far to be honest. Now I'm gonna manually work out the least squares regression line
[18:42] <ibanezmatt13> and then check the answer on the calc to see if I've done it right
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[18:49] <ibanezmatt13> adamgreig: I've manually worked out the least squares regression line, and it's correct! :D
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[18:58] Nick change: DL1SGP2 -> DL1SGP
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[19:11] <Willdude> http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/robertson-ask-your-gay-son-if-his-coach-molested-him
[19:11] <Willdude> LOL
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[19:12] <Willdude> Wrong channel
[19:12] <Willdude> Sorry
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[19:17] <ibanezmatt13> adamgreig: I have knocked up a "statistical report," just to prove that I understand it to myself. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-cEGtyyQePFYtHaMXd8zN3VLfcUe3Bx7ahSTY58eZNQ/edit?usp=sharing
[19:17] <ibanezmatt13> how unbelievably sad :P
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[19:18] <adamgreig> nice
[19:18] <adamgreig> stats is great
[19:18] <adamgreig> so that formula
[19:19] <adamgreig> typically you do Cov[X,Y] = E[XY] - E[X]E[Y] and Var[X] = E[X²] - E[X]² (and the std.dev. is sqrt(var))
[19:19] <adamgreig> r = Cov[X,Y]/sqrt(Var[X]Var[Y])
[19:19] <ibanezmatt13> yep, that's how I did it
[19:19] <adamgreig> so you just need to work those three out
[19:19] <adamgreig> whcih is fine and must be basically what you've done
[19:20] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[19:20] <adamgreig> but I'm not sure that your sLL etc variables are quite the same things
[19:20] <adamgreig> still, whatever, I wouldn't worry. you have a working formula
[19:20] <ibanezmatt13> excellent, I guess that's all that matters :)
[19:21] <adamgreig> hah, I did resistance on constantan wire for my gcse
[19:21] <adamgreig> wrote a PHP web app or something that did the resitance formula to get theoretical results to go with my real measurements
[19:21] <adamgreig> 2nd paragraph, shouldn't say 'however'
[19:21] <ibanezmatt13> awesome :D
[19:22] <ibanezmatt13> ah well
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[19:22] <adamgreig> might be worth saying that the relationship is linear
[19:22] <adamgreig> though that's what "proportionally" means really
[19:22] <ibanezmatt13> yes I considered linear, and thought proportionally was good enough
[19:23] <adamgreig> fair enough
[19:23] <adamgreig> otherwise looks accurate. good job
[19:23] <ibanezmatt13> thank you.
[19:23] <ibanezmatt13> It's not like this was even homework or anything. But at least I can be sure I've understood this
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[19:28] <adamgreig> a good habit :)
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[19:56] <Upu> SP3OSJ I may have to clear the tracker soon so please take any screen shots you need
[19:57] <micked> B-28 on its way :)
[19:58] <Willdude123> Upu: boards arrived
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[19:58] <Willdude123> Soldered NTX2 already
[19:59] <Upu> before you checked the power ?
[19:59] Action: Upu pats Willdude123
[19:59] <Willdude123> What do you mean>
[19:59] <Willdude123> :/
[20:00] <Upu> brand new board
[20:00] <Upu> start with the power circuit, check it works
[20:00] <Upu> then the microcontroller check it works
[20:00] <Upu> then the radio check it works
[20:00] <Upu> then the GPS
[20:00] <ibanezmatt13> I am an expert at not jumping ahead with making boards aren't I Upu :P
[20:00] <Upu> that way when you find something not right you can diagose it easier, don't waste a GPS chip etc
[20:01] <Upu> if you slap everything on diagnosing issues is going to be harder
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[20:02] <Willdude> As in check the continuity?
[20:02] <Upu> no as it in check it works at all
[20:02] <Upu> you solder it all on and there is a short
[20:02] <Upu> where do you start ?
[20:02] <Upu> if you put the power circuit on and it shorts you know the short is something with the power circuit
[20:02] <Upu> or the board
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[20:04] <Willdude> Oh.
[20:04] <Upu> oh indeed
[20:04] <Willdude> Well I've got the NTX2 soldered on.
[20:05] <Upu> best go do the power next then
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[20:05] <mfa298> and with a power circuit as importantly make sure it's working correctly with the right voltage - rather than sticking 15V into your expensive gps/microcontroller/radio
[20:05] <mfa298> and that the polarity is right
[20:05] <Upu> yeah that too
[20:05] Action: mfa298 has a chip with a nice hole in the top after connecting it backwards to an SLA
[20:06] <chrisstubbs> I guess that wasnt a current limiting SLA :(
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[20:07] <Willdude123> So I'll plug the 5v and GND out of my BBB into the board and test it with a multimeter? I can check it on one of the other boards I suppose.
[20:07] <mfa298> the circuit was also missing the all important input diode - Still it was a fairly cheap chip and I had spares (small audio amp)
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[20:09] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, Are you using 5v or 3.3v? 5v wont be good for the ublox without regulators and level shifting
[20:10] <chrisstubbs> B28 is off by the looks of it
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[20:11] <Willdude123> Wait, let me think, haven't done this in a while
[20:11] <Willdude123> 5v power 3v3 serial
[20:11] <Willdude123> 3v3 serial was OK for the ublox I think
[20:11] <Willdude123> Wait
[20:11] <Willdude123> I had it working so it must've been
[20:11] <chrisstubbs> yes it wants 3.3v serial AND 3.3v power
[20:11] <Willdude123> Ah yes.
[20:11] <Willdude123> I remember
[20:11] <chrisstubbs> i guess the bbb has a 3.3v onboard reg?
[20:12] <Willdude123> Yup.
[20:12] <mfa298> if you've got the raw chip then it's all 3v3.
[20:12] <Willdude123> GPIO is also 3v3
[20:12] <mfa298> one of the breakout boards has a suitable reg and level shifters so you can use it with 5v
[20:12] <chrisstubbs> you should be sorted then, I think this was a MAX6 stright on wills board mfa298
[20:13] <craag> Yep there's 3.3V power availible on the BBB header, so connect it to that.
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[20:15] <craag> has usb hotplug been fixed on the BBB yet?
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[20:17] <Willdude> Is there any particular advantage to using 5v instead of 3v3 or vica versa?
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[20:17] <craag> Well for the ublox GPS it's designed for 3.3V
[20:18] <craag> So plugging in 5V may kill it.
[20:19] <craag> For electronic circuits in general whey will tend to consume less power if the manufacturer can get them to work at lower voltages.
[20:19] <craag> *they will
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[20:19] <craag> But the beaglebone is designed to work on 5V, so won't work on much less than that.
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[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[20:23] <G0CXW> EVENING lEO
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[20:23] <G0CXW> caps lock on
[20:24] <G0CXW> glasses on sorry
[20:24] <G0CXW> and i'm sober tonight
[20:24] <G8APZ> chrisstubbs B-28 isn't moving on my map... ready to receive when it does!
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[20:25] <chrisstubbs> it made a big jump and i presumed it was going.. nothing since..
[20:25] <G8KNN> Nothing heard here yet.
[20:27] <G8APZ> chrisstubbs perhaps it is Leo's car and he's gone to a launch site... his receiver hasn't updated since it moved
[20:27] <G8APZ> chrisstubbs 20:09:23 on my map unless I've frozen!
[20:28] <chrisg7ogx> all quiet on the southern front..
[20:29] <G8KNN> pips just appearing out of the noise here now
[20:29] <chrisg7ogx> my map the same
[20:29] <chrisg7ogx> were off
[20:29] <mfa298> there appears to be movement
[20:30] <G8KNN> thar she blows...
[20:30] <mfa298> looks like it's heading straight for you chrisg7ogx
[20:30] <OH7HJ-1> B-28 released? Wow!
[20:30] <G8APZ> G8KNN your update moved it!
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[20:30] <chrisg7ogx> yes
[20:31] <chrisg7ogx> be great if it does sweep around into the Med
[20:31] <G8KNN> still very weak but signal improving
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[20:32] <chrisg7ogx> 434.500?
[20:32] <G8KNN> yes
[20:32] <chrisg7ogx> tks
[20:34] <DL7AD> seems to be a solar
[20:34] <DL7AD> btw good evening
[20:34] <chrisg7ogx> ge
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[20:36] <G8APZ> one telemetry block seen but weakly not the pips yet
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[20:38] <chrisg7ogx> nothing here
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[20:45] <Reb-SM3ULC> Wonder when Leo will delay the beacon until it should have reached some serious height.. sneaking up in the sky.. ;)
[20:46] <Reb-SM3ULC> OH7HJ-1: Doesn't seem to go for our areas.. yet..
[20:46] <G8APZ> Reb-SM3ULC I think we need the beacon when low so we get an idea where it is going!
[20:47] <Reb-SM3ULC> G8APZ: tight :)
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[20:47] <Reb-SM3ULC> with en r
[20:47] <chrisg7ogx> no pips ...not a sausage!
[20:47] <Reb-SM3ULC> :D
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[20:48] <chrisg7ogx> maybe South Downs in the way!
[20:48] <G8APZ> chrisg7ogx not much here either... I see occasional pip but not sure that's B-28!
[20:48] LeoBodnar (4e967898@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.150.120.152) joined #highaltitude.
[20:48] <G8APZ> yes.. and Chilterns
[20:48] <chrisg7ogx> yes after a while self doubt taps you on the shoulder!
[20:49] <chrisg7ogx> and pollution, central heating...
[20:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> Oh maybe I can look out and see it seeing as my aerials won't be back up till the weekend!
[20:49] <G8APZ> Reb-SM3ULC B-15 came your way in early october!
[20:50] <chrisg7ogx> something just swept across screen
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[20:50] <G8KNN-1> I think this might be one of Leo's more challenging flights to track :)
[20:52] <LeoBodnar> Inversion layer is thick like butter tonight
[20:52] <chrisg7ogx> Geoff put your car at 30 minutes standby!
[20:52] <Reb-SM3ULC> G8APZ: i think i have had 6 of them passing by close
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[20:53] <G8APZ> Reb-SM3ULC Yes, there have been some passed Scandinavia...
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[20:54] <Reb-SM3ULC> G8APZ: when they come, they seems very likely to pass by stockholm area
[20:55] <chrisstubbs> much lower ascent this time around, back to a normal foil this time?
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[20:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> Actually that's the only 70cms aerial I could plug into!
[20:56] <Willdude123> So to test the power circuit on my board, should I just connect GND and VCC and then test it with a DMM?
[20:56] <Upu> yes will
[20:56] <Upu> but test for shorts across GND and VCC
[20:57] <Upu> and GND and power input first
[20:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> Willdude123, First check for lack of continuity on the input and putpu before applying power!
[20:57] <Upu> continuity
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[20:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> You should just see a short pulse whilst any cpacitors charge up.
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[20:58] <Willdude123> OK, not got any caps on yet. Will test on another board w/o components first
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[21:02] <LeoBodnar> Yes, this is a regular foil
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: how did you bond the foil tube balloon?
[21:03] <DL1SGP1> another B- as expected :) TAHNKS LEO
[21:03] <DL1SGP1> thanks even
[21:03] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
[21:04] <LeoBodnar> welcome
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[21:04] <Willdude> Despite my uselessness at this whole PCB making stuff, it's always nice to hold something you designed in your hand
[21:04] <DL1SGP> shall it have a good float
[21:04] <LeoBodnar> With magic TESCO iron
[21:05] <DL1SGP> yay TESCO :)
[21:05] <LeoBodnar> It's hot sealable
[21:09] <chrisg7ogx> every little helps
[21:09] <chrisg7ogx> sorry
[21:10] LeoBodnar_ (4e967898@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.150.120.152) joined #highaltitude.
[21:10] <chrisg7ogx> does anyone have a dial frequency?
[21:11] <G8APZ> B-28 should be romping in but I can't find it!
[21:11] <chrisg7ogx> same here
[21:12] <LeoBodnar_> 434.500 chrisg7ogx
[21:12] <chrisg7ogx> tks Leo thought so..just checking
[21:13] <chrisg7ogx> that is my default setting now!!
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[21:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> chrisg7ogx, Doesn't look to be over your horizon yet ?
[21:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> At least not from a few m above goround level, it was at 200m ;-)
[21:19] <chrisg7ogx> Geoff that's a little comforting thanks! just looked at B-28 altitude..sloooow
[21:25] <chrisg7ogx> my antenna is 236 feet asl
[21:25] <SIbot> In real units: 236 ft = 72 m
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[21:26] <G4AIU-Eugene> GE all
[21:26] <chrisg7ogx> my antenna is 72 m ASL
[21:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> chrisg7ogx, You must be putting that trampoline to good use then (if I have the right location!) !
[21:27] <chrisg7ogx> you have and we do!!
[21:27] <chrisg7ogx> seriously thinking of painting c/s on flat roof
[21:27] <Geoff-G8DHE> 72m that's 210+feet ?
[21:27] <chrisg7ogx> yes my android App told me
[21:28] <chrisg7ogx> have domino here
[21:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> :0 don' walk to far South then when using your App, there's a big cliff down that way ;-)
[21:29] <chrisg7ogx> and pips yee ha!
[21:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> GE would agree with you its one Pixel over the Downs!
[21:29] <chrisg7ogx> Strewth
[21:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its 3 pixels now so should be s9 ;-)
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[21:32] <G8APZ> chrisg7ogx dial freq still .500?
[21:32] <chrisg7ogx> txing now
[21:33] <chrisg7ogx> 434.498.700
[21:33] <G8APZ> I heard the bagpipes but didn't get onto them fast enough!
[21:33] <chrisg7ogx> will give double pip warning next time
[21:33] <chrisg7ogx> QSB
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[21:37] <chrisg7ogx> TXing now
[21:38] <chrisg7ogx> soo every 5 mins confirmed Dr Watson!
[21:38] <chrisg7ogx> weaker that time
[21:40] <G8APZ> chrisg7ogx is it sending 3 second pips?
[21:41] <chrisg7ogx> yes but deep QSB
[21:41] <G8APZ> chrisg7ogx I mean pips every 3 secs
[21:41] <chrisg7ogx> :@}
[21:42] <chrisg7ogx> TXing now
[21:42] <chrisg7ogx> string 49 and 50
[21:43] <chrisg7ogx> and so on..anyone require count downs?
[21:45] <G8APZ> I heard the end of the telemetry... wish I could find the sodding pips!!
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[21:48] <chrisg7ogx> G8APZ what software are you using?
[21:48] <chrisg7ogx> SDR Console here
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[21:50] <G8APZ> dl-fldigi, but I can't hear by ear on IC-475e either!!
[21:50] <chrisg7ogx> 434.498?
[21:50] <Reb-SM3ULC> B-28 landning at Heathrow? ;)
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> hej Reb-SM3ULC
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:52] <chrisg7ogx> G8APZ pips disappear here for quite a while
[21:52] <G8APZ> chrisg7ogx not helpful when no SDR!!
[21:52] <chrisg7ogx> TXing now
[21:53] <chrisg7ogx> using FCD pro plus here
[21:53] <chrisg7ogx> but i must say condx are poor
[21:53] <G8APZ> chrisg7ogx I have a feeling I'm not going to hear this one... only a folded dipole here, but there is woodland to the west with wet trees
[21:54] <G8APZ> I'll have to put up a 21 ele vertical yagi and preamp on top of the 60ft mast!!
[21:54] <SIbot> In real units: 60 ft = 18 m
[21:54] <chrisg7ogx> I think you need at least a white stick
[21:54] <G8APZ> SIbot getting annoying.
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[21:54] <chrisg7ogx> now you're talking dirty!!
[21:55] <chrisg7ogx> Sibot he lonely love you long time 20 dollar
[21:55] <G8APZ> what has 60 feet ? 30 squaddies in a platoon
[21:55] <SIbot> In real units: 60 ft = 18 m
[21:55] <G8APZ> Gotcha!!
[21:55] <mclane> 20 ft
[21:55] <SIbot> In real units: 20 ft = 6.10 m
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[21:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> 1 mile
[21:56] <G8APZ> 10 furlongs
[21:56] <bertrik> 40 rods to the hogshead
[21:56] <chrisg7ogx> <SIbot> in real units 30 squaddies worth their weight in gold
[21:56] <G8APZ> 6chains and a rod pole and perch
[21:56] <chrisg7ogx> pips strong now
[21:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> So now we know how to fill in the gaps between telemetry ;-)
[21:57] <chrisg7ogx> all those chains etc are at Weald and downland museum
[21:57] <chrisg7ogx> tx
[21:58] <G8APZ> 12 inches
[21:58] <chrisg7ogx> are we old enough to remeber all that stuff on the back of school exercise books?
[21:58] <G8APZ> my mast is (60 x 12) inches!
[21:59] <G8APZ> chrisg7ogx I think so ! Just check out when G8A calls issued!!
[21:59] <chrisg7ogx> SIbot gets his coat..
[21:59] <adamgreig> hah :P
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[21:59] <gonzo_> is leo on his usual 434.500?
[21:59] <chrisg7ogx> LOL
[22:00] <Reb-SM3ULC> 434.500 ft
[22:00] <SIbot> In real units: 500 ft = 152 m
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[22:00] <chrisg7ogx> boss is home back later
[22:00] <Reb-SM3ULC> sri, just had to...
[22:00] <G8APZ> good one!!
[22:01] <LeoBodnar_> can we break it?
[22:01] <LeoBodnar_> 0.1 ft
[22:01] <SIbot> In real units: 1 ft = 0.30 m
[22:01] <LeoBodnar_> 0,1 ft
[22:01] <SIbot> In real units: 0,1 ft = 0.30 m
[22:01] <Geoff-G8DHE> 1 inch
[22:02] <LeoBodnar_> 1'
[22:02] <LeoBodnar_> Ha got ya
[22:02] <Geoff-G8DHE> Obviously a real unit of measurment
[22:02] <LeoBodnar_> Altitude is 33000'
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> does B-28 have really low lift?
[22:02] <G8APZ> SIbot can't do decimals!!
[22:02] <LeoBodnar_> No, its has large drag
[22:02] <LeoBodnar_> s/s//
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> why?
[22:03] <LeoBodnar_> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-28/Images/3.jpg
[22:03] <G8APZ> I could do with someone putting a carrier on top of the pips for a mo!!
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> hahaha
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> lolling
[22:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> Black & Sliver eh ?
[22:04] <Laurenceb_> this might be interesting
[22:04] <gonzo_> anyone hav a cal'ed dial freq for b28?
[22:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah ha http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-28/index.html
[22:06] <G8APZ> I see a red door and I want to paint it black..
[22:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> Stealth floater ;-)
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[22:08] <G8APZ> crossing above end of LHR runways!
[22:09] <G8APZ> I bet LHR control tower can see it on their radar!!
[22:09] <G8APZ> Just that I can't see it on my radio!
[22:11] Action: DL1SGP would not mind the ballon turning eas a bit earlier... hmm... like now! *withdrawl symptoms*
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[22:14] <chrisstubbs> Thought I had found the pips again there but I see no domino :(
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[22:15] <G8APZ> chrisstubbs strange ... LHR almost LoS from the ridge not far from here...
[22:15] <Geoff-G8DHE> This would be nice to fly! http://bublcam.com/the-technology/hardware/
[22:16] <G8APZ> hrd Domino weakly but still can't find the pips
[22:16] <chrisstubbs> Oh here we go
[22:17] <chrisstubbs> 434.500 center at 1900Hz
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[22:18] <chrisstubbs> should be within your range by now Steve_G0TDJ
[22:18] <Steve_G0TDJ> Just as well I'm tracking :-)
[22:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> Thanks for the ping, Chris. I jsut got in.
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[22:20] <Willdude> Hi
[22:20] <Willdude> Really nervous about soldering the Ublox
[22:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> Just take it slow and patient. Tack opposite connections to hold it down.
[22:21] <Upu> have you tested the AVR yet ?
[22:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> Two perfect sentences LeoBodnar_ chrisstubbs
[22:22] <chrisstubbs> hah i saw, nice
[22:22] Nick change: chrisstubbs -> chrisstubbsM6EDF
[22:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> Gotta sort my cat out. He wants feeding - brb
[22:23] <Willdude> Upu, me?
[22:23] <Upu> yes
[22:23] <Willdude> AVR?
[22:23] <Upu> the chip ?
[22:23] <Upu> microcontroller
[22:24] <Upu> or is this just an add on for your BBBBBB thingy ?
[22:24] <Willdude> Yup
[22:24] <Willdude> (the latter
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[22:31] <G8APZ> first decode
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[22:34] <G8APZ> dial reads 434.5007 for centre on 1200
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[22:37] <LeoBodnar_> G8APZ you are abeam
[22:37] <LeoBodnar_> So was it distance or local obstruction?
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[22:38] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[22:39] <LeoBodnar_> I admit I want to find better antenna solution for sharing between 2m and 70cm
[22:40] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar I think it's a poor antenna... single folded vertical dipole... must get better antenna out....
[22:40] <G8APZ> tracked B-27 to the coast yesterday though, so I'm puzzled why this is so hard!!
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> balloon heading toward Dorking
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> ...
[22:41] <G8APZ> a colinear with mini co-ax perhaps
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> it is high up and looks like a crown
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[22:41] <G8APZ> packet 72 and 73 not decoded
[22:50] <chrisg7ogx> accessing from downstairs using splashtop personal software
[22:51] <chrisg7ogx> the lowest loss coax you can afford
[22:52] <G8APZ> low loss = heavy!
[22:52] <chrisg7ogx> compromise low loss mini
[22:53] <fsphil> stick the FCD at the base of the antenna .. no coax at all :)
[22:53] <G8APZ> thinking of making a colinear out of UR67 and a plastic pipe
[22:53] <LeoBodnar_> Yeah, 12V supply and linear Vreg for FCD
[22:54] <LeoBodnar_> locally
[22:54] <chrisg7ogx> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RG8X-MINI-8-SUPER-LOW-LOSS-50-OHM-COAXIAL-CABLE-10M-/390435724081
[22:54] <fsphil> yep. usb can work over fairly long distances
[22:55] <fsphil> catch being you can't use the antenna for anything else
[22:55] <chrisg7ogx> whats the lossthough
[22:55] <chrisg7ogx> loss though
[22:56] <fsphil> digital, so it'll either work perfectly or be unreliable
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[22:57] <fsphil> the FCD might not like being in an enclosure outside
[22:57] <Darkside> dont b eusing RG8X on 70cm
[22:57] <Darkside> use LMR200 or something
[22:58] <Darkside> or LMR400
[22:58] <Darkside> or if its receive only, put a habamp up at the antenna feedpoint
[22:58] <chrisg7ogx> fcd wont like temperature changes and resultant moisture
[22:59] <Darkside> LeoBodnar_: with regards to a 2m/70cm antenna, you may be able to make somthing similar to the comet dual band antennas we used on our payloads
[22:59] <LeoBodnar_> I am planning to do a dipole with traps
[23:00] <Darkside> urgh
[23:00] <Darkside> at those frequencies thart gets difficult
[23:00] <fsphil> http://sigalrm.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/in-search-of-better-serial-camera-module.html
[23:00] <Darkside> we used a flexible dual-band handheld whip, with a small groundplane
[23:00] <fsphil> with an stm32f4 onboard, why bother with arduino
[23:00] <Darkside> works like a charm
[23:01] <LeoBodnar_> Well my total payload weight budget is about 10 grams
[23:01] <Darkside> i think you can still do it
[23:01] <Darkside> its just a matter of working out what matching ntwork is in the base of the whip
[23:01] <Darkside> and replicating it in SMD
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[23:02] <Darkside> th ground plan for it doesnt need to be a huge amount bigger for it to work effectivly
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[23:03] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/pMNZN.jpg
[23:03] <Darkside> not a good picture, but you can see the APRS payload on the left
[23:04] <LeoBodnar_> I have flown 70cm groundplane with 2m 1/4 wave active element and it was OKish
[23:04] <Darkside> anyway, trapped dipole are a pain enough on HF
[23:04] <Darkside> doing it on UHF/VHF is madness
[23:06] <Darkside> hmm
[23:06] <Darkside> you could do some funky switching with the ground plane radials
[23:06] <Darkside> switch them from being a ground plane for 2m, to being a dipole on 70cm
[23:06] <Darkside> dunno how you'd do it effectivly though
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[23:07] <Darkside> i think the switching circuitry would eat up your weight budget
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[23:08] <DL7AD> evening...
[23:08] <LeoBodnar_> It would have to work at high voltages (up to 7v peak) and be linear to avoid generating harmonics so tough
[23:09] <LeoBodnar_> reed relays maybe
[23:09] <Darkside> LeoBodnar_: yeah, it'd have to be relay based it hink
[23:09] <LeoBodnar_> Eveneing Sven
[23:09] <Darkside> which makes it way too heavy
[23:09] <DL1SGP> Guten Abend Sven
[23:09] <LeoBodnar_> I love reed relays
[23:09] <DL7AD> i think leo was hungry when he built the balloon :P
[23:10] <Darkside> still, the othr problem you'll have with using a horizontal dipoe is th payload spinning
[23:10] <DL1SGP> shh I am hungry now :)
[23:10] <LeoBodnar_> Which one?
[23:10] <LeoBodnar_> XD
[23:10] <Darkside> also most peoples antennas are vertically polarised, so thre goes 5dB or so
[23:11] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar_: B-28
[23:11] <pb1dft> Grrrr dutchies are boooorrrrreeeeeeedddddddd........
[23:11] Nick change: pb1dft -> PB1DFT
[23:12] <LeoBodnar_> Go wake some French trackers up! XD
[23:12] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar_: theres a pizza carton in one of the images :D
[23:12] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar_: already wrote emails to everyone
[23:12] <gonzo_> would not a 2mtr gp 1/4wave working on 70cm as a 3/4wave be ok?
[23:12] <LeoBodnar_> Lol, it's a steering wheel packaging
[23:12] Nick change: LeoBodnar_ -> LeoBodnar
[23:13] <gonzo_> may not be quite the cardiod pattern, but simple
[23:13] <DL1SGP> pizza such a good idea
[23:13] <DL1SGP> darn
[23:13] <DL1SGP> 9h until breakfast
[23:13] <gonzo_> steering wheels are better
[23:13] <LeoBodnar> gonzo_: why not just dipole then?
[23:14] <Darkside> bcause trapping a dipol for dual bands is going to be a PITA
[23:14] <Darkside> espcially at 70cm
[23:14] <Darkside> also you hav to ask where you want your radiation to go
[23:14] <gonzo_> a vertival dipole would work
[23:15] <Darkside> you'll be beaming at the horizon with that
[23:15] <Darkside> that will be OK for APRS i guess
[23:15] <Darkside> hrm
[23:15] <Darkside> maybe
[23:15] <gonzo_> I've flown a sleve dipole on last pico, tied up the string to the balloomn
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[23:15] <Darkside> with 10mw TX power on APRS, you may want to be talking to igates below you for a better chance of FM capture
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[23:16] <LeoBodnar> That's what I am doing right now - 2m dipole used for both 70cm and 2m APRS but I think there is better solution than that
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[23:16] <gonzo_> a good gp should be equiv to a dipole in the radiatiop patern
[23:16] <Darkside> gonzo_: no
[23:16] <LeoBodnar> in free space yes
[23:16] <gonzo_> enlighten me.......
[23:16] <Darkside> gonzo_: its half of a dipoles pattern
[23:17] <Darkside> with the lobes angled up a bit further
[23:17] <Darkside> and remember, this is *definitely* not an ideal ground plane
[23:17] <LeoBodnar> GP radiation pattern = dipole in free space
[23:17] <gonzo_> I thought the idea of the gp was so that the half dipile could not see that there was not another half of the dipole on the other side?
[23:18] <Darkside> thats how it works *ideally*
[23:18] <Darkside> with an infinite groundplane
[23:18] <LeoBodnar> No, that's how it works with 1/4 wave GP
[23:18] <gonzo_> rr, ok, I was going to add the 'theoretically' word, buty had already hit entre
[23:19] <Darkside> anyway, you can certainly do btter with a dual band antnena, but in 10g you'r epushing it
[23:19] <LeoBodnar> Well, we are talking no feeder and infinitesimally small transmitter
[23:19] <gonzo_> I had always found that real gp had wuite a bit of upward tilt
[23:19] <Darkside> we got around the problem by usin a flxibl handheld antenna
[23:19] <Darkside> gonzo_: thats what i mean about real GP antennas
[23:19] <Darkside> how they have that tilt
[23:19] <Darkside> which in a balloon is good
[23:19] <gonzo_> agree that
[23:20] <LeoBodnar> earth
[23:20] <Darkside> means more radiation to listeners which are on teh ground
[23:20] <Darkside> yep
[23:20] <gonzo_> made for the job
[23:20] <Darkside> a dipole means you're wasting some energy
[23:20] <gonzo_> when the gods were planning EM theory, they must have had us in mind
[23:20] <Darkside> also makes it harder for receiver sits below the payload to hear
[23:20] <Darkside> sites*
[23:20] <G8APZ> well bugger me! Just decoded 89 and 90!!
[23:21] <LeoBodnar> EM theory has been created by a work experience god
[23:21] <LeoBodnar> lol G8APZ
[23:21] <LeoBodnar> ping nats`
[23:21] <gonzo_> I flew a sleeve dipole as it was a foil pico, so would be low to most rx sites and by putting it on the string to the balloons, it would prob come down with the ant a few ft above ground at least
[23:22] <G8APZ> first time 2 consecutive packets decoded on this flight
[23:22] <gonzo_> got 90 here to! That makes 2 decodes this eve
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[23:23] <Darkside> anyways, th handheld antenna worked beautifully
[23:23] <Darkside> but that probably weighed as much as leos entire payload
[23:23] <G8APZ> I'm going to do something about a vertical antenna here... this is frustrating with a simple folded dipole
[23:23] <gonzo_> went out and recal'ed the az/el rotator this eve. was about 20deg out
[23:23] <Darkside> however, the base of that antenna is pretty much some kind of LC ntwork
[23:24] <Darkside> so im sure you could do that LC ntwork in SMD, then have the rest of th whip as thin wire
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> hi Darkside
[23:24] <LeoBodnar> What is the efficiency of feeding 2m into 70cm GP antenna?
[23:24] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: bad
[23:24] <LeoBodnar> I am using APRS as a backup mostly
[23:25] <Darkside> mm
[23:25] <LeoBodnar> And it is working brilliantly well so I can afford some quality loss
[23:25] <gonzo_> G8APZ, the white stick colinear is about optimal for hab rx. may not be as much fun to make, but they are so cheap now.
[23:25] <G8APZ> 92 decoded
[23:25] <craag> You can do 3/4 wave at 70cm that then becomes 1/4 wave at 2m. But then your gain will be 45 degrees down at 70cm.
[23:25] <Darkside> craag: this is basically what th handhld antennas do
[23:26] <Darkside> it requires matching though
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> hey craag :)
[23:26] <G8APZ> gonzo yes, I was thinking of a trip to W&S to buy one and stop sodding about with making one!!
[23:26] <craag> Yeah, and a 5/8 is basically a squashed first 1/4.
[23:26] <craag> Doesn't need matching afaik
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> hey antennas
[23:26] <craag> 50 ohm for both designs
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> I can say one of my fav words now
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> Harmonics!
[23:26] <Darkside> craag: it does to be dual band
[23:27] <DL1SGP> goodnight folks
[23:27] <Lunar_Lander> good night DL1SGP
[23:27] <gonzo_> I've tried making collinears. Only successful have been phased dipoles and simple 5/8 over 5/8
[23:27] <Darkside> im trying to find some references on this
[23:27] <G8APZ> DL1SGP GN
[23:27] <gonzo_> made as a poor schoolboy
[23:27] <craag> Darkside: I have a 57 ohm 1/4 wave on 2m that was 80 ohm on 70cm.
[23:28] <G8APZ> gonzo I made successful 70cm turnstiles in 70s - very good horizontal antenna on mobile!
[23:28] <LeoBodnar> GN DL1SGP
[23:28] <gonzo_> that's not a bad match really
[23:28] <Darkside> ooh
[23:28] <Darkside> i wonder
[23:28] <Darkside> what about a lpole
[23:28] <Darkside> sorry
[23:28] <Darkside> J-pole
[23:28] <Lunar_Lander> does it have good Harmonics?
[23:28] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[23:28] <Darkside> you could make a jpol small
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[23:28] <Darkside> it will have the horizon radiation problm
[23:28] <craag> my 2m jpole works v well for 70cm rx, haven't checked with a vna though.
[23:29] <craag> bbl
[23:29] <Darkside> oh wait
[23:29] <Darkside> yeah, making it dual band will be a pain
[23:29] <gonzo_> that's just a half wave vert with a twin feed matcher isn't it?
[23:29] <LeoBodnar> Fractal antenna!
[23:29] <Darkside> nevermind m
[23:30] <G8APZ> 93 and 94 successful
[23:34] <G8APZ> Soon be time to wake up French trackers!! Croissants and coffe
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[23:36] <Laurenceb_> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-28/Pages/3.html
[23:37] <Laurenceb_> is there APRS on there?
[23:39] <LeoBodnar> Yes but not over UK or France
[23:39] <Laurenceb_> i cant see it :P
[23:39] <Laurenceb_> very thin wire?
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[23:39] <LeoBodnar> Do you mean dipole??
[23:39] <Laurenceb_> yes
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[23:40] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: how are you matching the dipole?
[23:40] <LeoBodnar> It's very thin wire (0.3mm)
[23:40] <Laurenceb_> ah
[23:41] <LeoBodnar> It amtches itself XD
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[23:41] <Darkside> ah
[23:41] <Darkside> so no matching then
[23:41] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[23:41] <Darkside> so its not actually acting as a dipole
[23:41] <Darkside> its acting as a 1/4 wave with a counterpoise
[23:41] <Darkside> which means the radiation pattern will be whack
[23:41] <LeoBodnar> Well, I have adjusted match/LPF to be roughly OK
[23:42] <Darkside> ah ok
[23:42] <Darkside> thats better than nothing i guess :P
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[23:44] <gonzo_> signals come right up in strength. Better path for me
[23:46] <G8APZ> gonzo I hear in the noise and partial decodes... I'm about to switch rig off... others have better setups
[23:47] <LeoBodnar> Thank you for tracking G8APZ !
[23:47] <G8APZ> its about to cross coast at Newhaven, so out to sea
[23:47] <gonzo_> I have yagis here, but I'm in a valley. Only out to the east is clear for me.
[23:48] <G8APZ> Leo My pleasure... my biggest regret was when I was in SW France as F1VJQ one of your mega trip ballons passed very close a few days earlier, but I hadn't been aware of HABs then
[23:49] <G8APZ> I did RX a vertical flight at > 700km!
[23:49] <G8APZ> 102 just loaded up
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[23:50] <G8APZ> but in France I have a vertical 9ele yagi
[23:51] <Laurenceb_> http://inkjetflex.com/site/
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[23:56] <LeoBodnar> G8APZ we'll repeat it next summer ;D
[23:56] <G8APZ> LeoBodnar I'll be there waiting in July/Aug/Sep!!
[23:57] <LeoBodnar> I like flex but not when you need crystal oscillators
[23:57] <LeoBodnar> I'll book those three month
[23:57] <LeoBodnar> s
[00:00] --- Wed Nov 13 2013