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[08:08] <Steve_G0TDJ> 'Morning
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[08:22] <fsphil> morn!
[08:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hey Phil, what's the weather like with you?
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[08:25] <fsphil> dry and cloudy
[08:25] <fsphil> a bit warmer too, no ice today
[08:26] <Steve_G0TDJ> Pretty naff here. Patches of rain, dull and very overcast
[08:26] <Steve_G0TDJ> Not too cold though
[08:26] <fsphil> yea the one advantage of dull wet weather, it's a bit warmer
[08:27] <Steve_G0TDJ> I've just begun writing my blog entry about my launch on Sunday. I was too busy yesterday.
[08:30] <fsphil> I'd be terrible at updating a blog if I had one
[08:31] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm trying to keep up with this one. I'm pretty useless too LOL There's a load of abandonded blogs with my name on out there...
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[08:45] <ibanezmatt13> morning
[08:45] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hey Matt
[08:45] <ibanezmatt13> Hey Steve, how you doing?
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[08:46] <Steve_G0TDJ> Not bad thanks. Just writing my blog entry about Sundays launch. How about you?
[08:46] <ibanezmatt13> Ah cool, not so bad. My rocket predictor is looking really cool
[08:46] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, I saw your post just now. I'll read it properly later on. Looks interesting.
[08:47] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, sure is :)
[08:47] <Steve_G0TDJ> I better get back to writing or I'll never finish ;-) Chat to you later.
[08:48] <ibanezmatt13> Cool, see you :)
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[08:59] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
[08:59] <DL1SGP> good morning :)
[09:00] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hey Felix. Just a quick greeting, I@m working on my blog entry for the launch.
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[09:06] <DL1SGP> heh good luck Steve, I am sure it will be great
[09:07] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cheers Felix. I've just been interupted by a text message reminding me that I have something to do this morning. I'll let you know when the blog entry is ready.
[09:07] <Steve_G0TDJ> Are you on Twitter?
[09:07] <DL1SGP> yes
[09:08] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cool, I've not been keeping up, do you follow @Project_HAB ?
[09:09] <DL1SGP> no :)
[09:09] <DL1SGP> I am not on twitter too often myself
[09:09] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'll be posting the link to the blog on there once complete.
[09:10] <Steve_G0TDJ> No worries, I'll let you know anyway.
[09:10] <DL1SGP> should build a little thingamabob with an LCD displaying updates conveniently in my shack :)
[09:10] <DL1SGP> you can include #ukhas hashtag so the bot will mention it here
[09:10] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yes, I'll do that
[09:13] <ibanezmatt13> The NORB rocket predictor now takes into account the atmospheric pressure model for different altitudes based on this: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/atmosmet.html
[09:14] <ibanezmatt13> awesome :)
[09:15] <fsphil> so when's the lunar mission ibanezmatt13 ? :)
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[09:15] <ibanezmatt13> ah not for a while yet. Need to get an explosives license ;)
[09:15] <fsphil> haha
[09:16] <DL1SGP> did I hear explosives?
[09:16] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[09:16] <ibanezmatt13> well UKRA level 1 rocketry license
[09:17] <daveake> I saw a sneak peek of it earlier http://forums.3dtotal.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=201338&d=1363195115
[09:17] <ibanezmatt13> lol
[09:17] <ibanezmatt13> the plan is to get a few model rockets and fly a NORB board on them,to get an idea. Then, we're actually going to design and build our own NORR, and run the predictor on it :)
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[09:35] <Andrew_M6GTG> Morning all
[09:35] <DL1SGP> Good Morning Andrew_M6GTG
[09:40] <Andrew_M6GTG> quiet again, everyone still in bed?
[09:40] <GMT> nah, I've been up for at least ... ooh, 30 minutes
[09:42] <Andrew_M6GTG> lol
[09:44] <DL1SGP> sorry was daydreaming of being asleep
[09:45] <Andrew_M6GTG> I might be in my 40s but excited like a kid, a NTX-2 arrived in the post this morning ;-)
[09:45] <DL1SGP> ooooh
[09:45] <DL1SGP> when will it fly?
[09:45] <DL1SGP> :D
[09:46] <GMT> ooh, launch this afternoon?
[09:46] Action: DL1SGP brings up dl-fldigi
[09:46] <DL1SGP> just in case
[09:47] <GMT> Andrew, what's its callsign? where launch?
[09:47] <Andrew_M6GTG> just experiments at the moment, hopefully soon - taking first steps
[09:47] <DL1SGP> ah
[09:47] <DL1SGP> sounds nice
[09:47] <ibanezmatt13> guys, does air density generally decrease or increase as you go up?
[09:48] <ibanezmatt13> decrease ?
[09:48] <Andrew_M6GTG> decided listening was being too passive.. need to get transmitting
[09:49] <DL1SGP> ibanezmatt13: http://en.wikipedia.org/Density_of_air
[09:49] <fsphil> pretty sure it decreases
[09:49] <ibanezmatt13> I think it does too, just checking my sanity
[09:49] <ibanezmatt13> "Air density decreases with increasing altitude"
[09:49] <ibanezmatt13> phew
[09:50] <DL1SGP> heh
[09:50] <ibanezmatt13> thought I'd lost it there for a minute
[09:50] <DL1SGP> you did not ... sanity checks are vital
[09:51] <ibanezmatt13> that's good. My predictor shows a very slight decrease as it goes up a little, and it increases again as it falls. Cool
[09:52] <DL1SGP> heh let's call that "expected behavior"
[09:52] <ibanezmatt13> :)
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[09:55] <daveake> It would be worrying if it increased with altitude
[09:56] <ibanezmatt13> yes it would
[09:56] <DL1SGP> morning daveake :)
[09:57] <daveake> It might make the altitude record easier to beat :p
[09:57] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[09:57] <fsphil> "day 25 ... balloon is still rising"
[09:57] <daveake> :)
[09:57] <fsphil> "day 26 ... payload crushed"
[09:57] <daveake> hah
[09:58] <DL1SGP> so ibanezmatt13 when will you start the ACRC? (Arctic Circle Rocket Challenge) :)
[09:58] <nats`> hi
[09:58] <ibanezmatt13> lol, when I get enough money and the highest level rocket license :P
[09:59] <fsphil> not sure dropping a lot of rockets in the arctic would be a good idea
[10:00] <ibanezmatt13> We'll just go for orbit instead
[10:00] <nats`> rocket pingu hunting ?
[10:00] <nats`> :)
[10:00] <ibanezmatt13> in Antarctica yeah :P
[10:00] <ibanezmatt13> do they have Pingus in the Arctic?
[10:00] <ibanezmatt13> *penguins :/
[10:01] <nats`> don't think so
[10:01] <daveake> ah yes, orbit ...
[10:01] <nats`> but not sure
[10:01] <daveake> ... you need quite a lot of energy for that
[10:01] <nats`> they have pingu in orbit ? :D
[10:01] <ibanezmatt13> indeed, hence the need for lots of money and the highest rocket license :)
[10:01] <daveake> riiiight
[10:02] <ibanezmatt13> what rocket did you use on LOHAN daveake?
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[10:02] <fsphil> we should kickstart putting a pingu in orbit. turns out people will throw money at any stupid thing
[10:02] <ibanezmatt13> RSPCA would stop it
[10:02] <x-f> penguins are in Antarctica, polar bears - in Arctica
[10:02] <fsphil> pingu, not a penguin :)
[10:02] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok :)
[10:03] <ibanezmatt13> thought so x-f, just needed a sanity check
[10:03] <daveake> pingu has "pi" in it
[10:03] <daveake> Sure fire winner
[10:03] <fsphil> there are four lights ibanezmatt13
[10:03] <fsphil> (sanity check)
[10:03] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[10:04] <ibanezmatt13> what rocket did you use on LOHAN daveake? :)
[10:04] <daveake> ibanezmatt13 Not (nearly) enough for orbit
[10:04] <daveake> and we didnt fly it
[10:04] <ibanezmatt13> ah
[10:06] <daveake> Even with that, the numbers for final speed and (especially) acceleration were pretty impressive/frightening
[10:06] <ibanezmatt13> I can imagine
[10:07] Action: DL1SGP listens up as the fact indicate the chance of impact crater
[10:07] <DL1SGP> :)
[10:08] <ibanezmatt13> lol
[10:08] <ibanezmatt13> right, think I'd better be off to college
[10:08] <ibanezmatt13> laters )
[10:09] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[10:09] <DL1SGP> be safe there
[10:09] <ibanezmatt13> don't worry. No wiring plugs there ;)
[10:09] <DL1SGP> heh, college should teach such useful things
[10:10] <ibanezmatt13> they should, i know how to do it now as well :)
[10:10] <ibanezmatt13> right, bye
[10:10] <nats`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingu <= let's the hunt begin :)
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[10:29] <eroomde> is anyone on ubuntu 13.10, and if so does it do anything awful compared to 13.04 that will make me regret upgrading?
[10:29] <Laurenceb> 10.04 here
[10:30] <eroomde> thanks for sharing
[10:31] <nats`> eroomde ubuntu is worst at each new version
[10:31] <eroomde> yes i know
[10:31] <nats`> we had a big regression on some network driver here
[10:31] <eroomde> and i know i'll have to make the jump soon
[10:31] <eroomde> and i'm trying a few things in a vm
[10:31] <nats`> get back to 12.04 for a test bench
[10:31] <eroomde> but right now, i want haskell-platform, it's not in 13.04 as they missed the boat, but is in 13.10
[10:32] <eroomde> i tried building bits of it last night from source but it was a nightmare and the build failed after 2.5hrs
[10:32] <nats`> I have a friend coding A LOT in haskell I can ask(ell) him if you want
[10:32] <nats`> I know he does it on windows and linux
[10:32] <eroomde> well, if he has made the jump from 13.04 to 13.10 then his opinion would be useful
[10:33] <eroomde> otherwise not so useful, as i'm not so much asking about haskell as the jump from 13.04 to 13.10
[10:34] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[10:34] <nats`> he is asking what version of GHC you use ?
[10:34] <nats`> but he 'll come here
[10:34] <eroomde> it's ok
[10:34] <eroomde> really
[10:34] <eroomde> this is one of those answering a different question to the one i asked moments
[10:35] <eroomde> i know that i want haskell-platform, i don't want to talk about ghc versions and stuff
[10:35] <nats`> if you need haskell reference he's the guy :)
[10:35] <eroomde> ok grand, thanks :)
[10:35] <eroomde> #haskell is also an obscenely friendly place
[10:35] <eroomde> that's all cool
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[10:36] <Twinside> yop
[10:36] <nats`> yop that was a eroomde question
[10:37] <eroomde> just, haskell-platform was, as i understand it, created to be the easiest way to just get a known working and mutually-compatible system of tools
[10:37] <Twinside> well, it's juste GHC and a set of libraries
[10:37] <Twinside> just*
[10:37] <eroomde> rather than trying to do it all manually, which I don't mind doing (c.f. my adventures with arm toolchains) but it's not the problem i'm trying to solve at the mo!
[10:38] <Twinside> what do you want to use Haskell for?
[10:39] <eroomde> learning
[10:40] <eroomde> so, i have a few problems that i'd be interested to try with haskell
[10:41] <Twinside> well If you're just covering the basics, playing with lists and different combinators, you could keep the GHC given with your distribution
[10:41] <Twinside> once you want to play with the libraries provided on Hackage, it might be interesting to upgrade to the Haskell Platform
[10:41] <eroomde> i had an unhappy time recently trying to make a very multicore machine learning bit of software
[10:42] <eroomde> i wrote a python module in C++ and did the multicore stuff in C++, but trying to reason about its behaviour was really a bit troublesome
[10:42] <eroomde> and there were some horrendous memory bugs
[10:42] <eroomde> which turned out partly to be the fault of cpython. but it made me want to try out a language where it's much easy to reason about side effects and so on
[10:43] <Twinside> yep Haskell is well suited for side effect tracking
[10:44] <eroomde> i'm as much interested to see if using it helps me think about writing better c++
[10:44] <Twinside> after for machine learning, getting some performances out of it will not be trivial
[10:45] <eroomde> i'm not sure what the state of haskell is for number crunching. it seems like if variables are immutable than the using high-performance paradigms of in-situ array bashing could be tricky
[10:45] <Twinside> well, it's complicated
[10:45] <Twinside> by default, everything is impure and Boxed
[10:46] <Twinside> the default array libraries of Haskell are shitty (to be polite)
[10:46] <Twinside> but some better stuff appeared not so long ago, a library called "Vector"
[10:46] <Twinside> which provide decent immutable & mutable array
[10:46] <eroomde> yeah. presumably all the type checking adds overhead
[10:46] <Twinside> it's not the type checking which add the overhead
[10:47] <Twinside> it's the pervasive lazyness in the language
[10:47] <eroomde> oh yes, that makes sense too
[10:47] <eroomde> i guess i was thinking of python, where th type checking makes lists slow for doing maths
[10:47] <Twinside> type checking is mostly free as the type information is completly erased at the end of the compilation
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[10:48] <Twinside> so to continue on the Vector library, there is an above library called "Repa" which is aimed at fast parallel array computation
[10:48] <Twinside> you may want to have a look in that
[10:49] <Twinside> and if you need array mutation, because you can't avoid it, you can look at the mutable vector and the ST monad
[10:49] <eroomde> i'm happy to try and avoid it
[10:49] <Twinside> with the ST monad, you can do all your mutation/ugly stuff in some functions and still provide a pure functional interface above
[10:50] <eroomde> i sort of want the piece of mind that immutability buys
[10:50] <eroomde> i.e., i don't mind if per thread it runs 1/2 the speed of c++, it it makes it much easier to spread over 32 threads
[10:50] <eroomde> if it*
[10:51] <Twinside> getting 1/2 the speed of C++ can be tricky
[10:51] <eroomde> well, i'll see how I get on
[10:51] <eroomde> if it helps me write better c++, that'll still all be worth it
[10:51] <Twinside> I'm managing to get 1/4 the speed of C on image decompression with pure haskell algorithm
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[10:52] <eroomde> does it require lots of understanding the guts of haskell?
[10:53] <eroomde> or does it look like 'nice' (for want of a better word. idiomatic?) haskell?
[10:53] <eroomde> i've hit the upgrade button on ubuntu
[10:53] <eroomde> so sorry if it decides to retsart without any warning
[10:55] <eroomde> do you use haskell professionally, Twinside? if so what for?
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[10:56] <Twinside> in my case, the code was idiomatic at start, then I tried load big images, so first optimisation pass made me use imperative constructs, but concealed to be still functional on the outside
[10:56] <Twinside> not professionally, I'm more a user of OCaml at work
[10:56] <tweetBot> @Project_HAB: New blog entry. VAYU-1 Re-Launch: http://t.co/dmQCCJNEtt What did end the flight? #HAB #hamr #ukhas
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[10:57] <Twinside> but I'm the author of one of the biggest image loading library in Haskell : http://hackage.haskell.org/package/JuicyPixels-
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[10:57] <eroomde> awesome
[10:57] <eroomde> do you do image work professionally?
[10:58] <Twinside> at my previous work yeah
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[11:01] <eroomde> cool
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[11:06] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi Andrew_M6GTG
[11:06] <Andrew_M6GTG> Morning Steve
[11:06] <Steve_G0TDJ> How you doing?
[11:07] <Andrew_M6GTG> Just recovered from a major PC snafu.. forced reboot
[11:07] <Steve_G0TDJ> Oh dear, that's not goo when that happens
[11:07] <DL1SGP> nice blog Steve_G0TDJ
[11:08] <Andrew_M6GTG> adobe reader I suspect, had about 12 documents open ;-)
[11:08] <Steve_G0TDJ> Thanks Felix :-)
[11:08] <Steve_G0TDJ> Not the most stable of apps
[11:08] <Andrew_M6GTG> nice url shortner too..
[11:08] <Steve_G0TDJ> Which one Andy, Twitter masks it with t.co
[11:08] <Andrew_M6GTG> flyha.be
[11:09] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm glad you spotted it
[11:09] <mfa298> if you don't like forced reboots don't upgrade past windows 7. Win8 gives the nice, "Updates have been installed rebooting in 15 minutes - save your work now." message
[11:09] <Steve_G0TDJ> Can you not switch it off Mike?
[11:10] <mfa298> I think so with registry hacking (or local security manager if you have the Pro version)
[11:10] <Steve_G0TDJ> Inconvienient
[11:10] <Andrew_M6GTG> mfa298: sorry meant forced reboot as system had become totally unresponsive.. power button job, now an hour while Raid verifies itself
[11:11] <mfa298> although at least the reboots are fairly quick, and it generally happens during the day so I have a chance to save a multitude of notepad documents.
[11:11] <mfa298> Andrew_M6GTG: I suspected that's what you mean, although the Win8 bit isn't much better (you can't cancel it, you just have a warning)
[11:12] <Andrew_M6GTG> Steve_G0TDJ: Did you see I've ordered some bits? NTX-2, Ublox and an arduino
[11:12] <Steve_G0TDJ> No, I did see the NTX2 pic but not the rest
[11:13] <mfa298> easy fix for waiting on raid to verify, buy a proper hardware raid card although that does get costly.
[11:13] <mfa298> or a better filesystem (although I think that really means moving to Solaris or possibly one of the BSDs)
[11:14] <Andrew_M6GTG> mfa298: works pc.. running vista, don't ask! ;-)
[11:14] <Steve_G0TDJ> WHAT!
[11:14] <mfa298> Kill it with fire (at least the vista part)
[11:14] <Steve_G0TDJ> Grenade....
[11:15] Action: mfa298 hopes the drives weren't bought at the same time - I had both drives in a Raid1 mirror fail together recently!
[11:15] <Steve_G0TDJ> That was bad luck
[11:16] <mfa298> half expected, two drives probably from the same batch treated in exactly the same way.
[11:17] <Andrew_M6GTG> mfa298: Not as bad as one PC I inherited when I started here, it was 'raided' and a drive died, then discovered the previous idiot had configured it as a striped instead of mirror!
[11:17] <DL1SGP> duh
[11:17] <mfa298> with a sysadmin hat on, the most likely time for a drive to fail is when rebuilding a raid array (it's the one time you want to access all data on the drive so shows up errors nicely)
[11:17] <DL1SGP> now you know why he quit :)
[11:18] <Andrew_M6GTG> DL1SGP: Oh and then discovered a lot of stuff supposedly on the main server wasn't...
[11:18] <mfa298> For a desktop I'd be tempted to strip drives in some scenarios anyway, much better performance. But then don't store important data on the drive (or make sure you have a good, working backup system)
[11:20] <Andrew_M6GTG> Did recover most of the data by swapping controlling boards, and then using software to rebuild the array
[11:21] <DL1SGP> yeah swapping control boards always is a good idea. I did so with a notebook drive that failed lately... interesting to see how the system then behaved with a new controller board telling me that the computer was setup recently and all the backup crap you get offered lol
[11:22] <Andrew_M6GTG> I digress.. Steve_G0TDJ: Decided I need to experiment, first payload might be veroboard and sticky tape ;-)
[11:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> LOL No worries. They'll always be a VAYU board here if you want one
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[11:23] <mfa298> there's nothing wrong with veroboard as long as the connections are soldered.
[11:23] Action: LazyLeopard did a short talk at the Surrey club last night.
[11:24] <mfa298> although my test rig is currently on breadboard (/me hides)
[11:25] <Andrew_M6GTG> mind you got surplus small PIC24 based product board here that could be easily canabilised into a flight computer - just don't have a programmer at home :-(
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[11:26] <Steve_G0TDJ> You could make one Andy
[11:26] Action: mfa298 wonders how easily you could make a pi act as a programmer for various systems using the gpio pins
[11:28] <Andrew_M6GTG> mfa298: funny you should say that, hopefully getting an unwanted model-a from a friend ;-)
[11:28] <Andrew_M6GTG> LazyLeopard: How did it go?
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[11:31] <LazyLeopard> Seemed to go OK.
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[11:37] <Andrew_M6GTG> LazyLeopard: Glad to hear that, I did one last week at my club which went down well
[11:40] <daveake> My turn at my club next week :p
[11:47] <eroomde> i don't belong to a club
[11:47] <eroomde> sad face
[11:47] <Darkside> :<
[11:47] <Darkside> im the secretary of my club >_>
[11:54] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm Chairman of mine....
[11:54] <nats`> eroomde let's start the club for people without club
[11:54] <Steve_G0TDJ> :D
[11:54] <Miek_> so i just saw Steve_G0TDJ's blog post and thought this all looks rather interesting. is there much activity in scotland? we've got a SDR setup on our hackerspace roof in edinburgh and i want to track things :)
[11:54] <eroomde> nats`, plan
[11:55] <Steve_G0TDJ> Why don't you launch your own Miek_
[11:55] <eroomde> except this is sort of my club
[11:55] <eroomde> as this is the bit i'm interested in
[11:55] <eroomde> i got the license so i could do more electronics
[11:56] <nats`> bitclub ?
[11:56] <nats`> (in french that's a fucking awesome joke :D)
[11:56] <Darkside> explain
[11:56] <fsphil> lol
[11:57] <nats`> bite = penis in french and you pronounce it like bit :D
[11:57] <Darkside> ah
[11:57] <nats`> so men"s club only
[11:57] <fsphil> Miek_: not so much, though a lot of my flight predictions head your way
[11:57] <fsphil> I'm planning on landing one in scotland in spring next year
[11:57] <nats`> typical french expression: "Soirée entre couille/bite" = party between male friend :)
[11:58] <Darkside> so th french equivalent of sausagefest
[11:58] <eroomde> yes
[11:58] <nats`> we could say that :D
[11:58] <eroomde> which presumably exists somewhere near munich
[11:58] <Andrew_M6GTG> Steve_G0TDJ: Great blog post, just got around to reading it over a cup of coffee
[11:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> :-)
[11:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> Gald it's going down well
[11:59] <Andrew_M6GTG> handy hints, like using party balloons to check wind ;-)
[11:59] <DL1SGP> for ground wind smoke grenades work too :)
[11:59] <Andrew_M6GTG> and using flight radar to check for turkish airplanes..
[12:00] <DL1SGP> but they are less floaty
[12:00] <DL1SGP> unless you use them below a party balloon
[12:00] <DL1SGP> which might look funny but would be incompatible with most people living in the area
[12:02] <Steve_G0TDJ> LOL....
[12:02] <Steve_G0TDJ> I hope my continuing posts are useful
[12:02] <nats`> oky time to simulate a delta sigma adc to validate verilog code :\
[12:02] <nats`> I hate maths
[12:03] <Steve_G0TDJ> Me too nats`
[12:03] <Andrew_M6GTG> must get around to putting some updates on my blog
[12:04] <Steve_G0TDJ> It's a time-sap but worth it
[12:04] <fsphil> cute bit of code: http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html#CountBitsSetKernighan
[12:05] <jonsowman> very neat
[12:06] <eroomde> i have used that before
[12:06] <eroomde> for summing up correlation scores when you only have 1 bit ADCs and 1-bit LOs
[12:06] <eroomde> it's great
[12:06] <jonsowman> :)
[12:06] <Laurenceb> too slow for GPS :-/
[12:07] <eroomde> it was fast enough actually
[12:07] <Laurenceb> on x86?
[12:07] <eroomde> yes
[12:07] <Laurenceb> ah
[12:07] <Laurenceb> i was benchmarking various approaches on cortex-m4
[12:08] <eroomde> what's faster?
[12:08] <Laurenceb> a nibble accumulation technique was faster
[12:08] <Laurenceb> bizarrely
[12:08] <eroomde> i can see that you could do predicatble time ones that are faster on average if you break it down
[12:08] <eroomde> yeah
[12:08] <eroomde> brian's way is no better for large numbers of bits set
[12:08] <Laurenceb> with clever use of the DSP insturctions
[12:08] <eroomde> but good for small number
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[12:26] <adamgreig> I think I used a 256 byte lookup table
[12:26] <adamgreig> for my xkcd thing
[12:27] <adamgreig> from that page in fact
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[12:33] <adamgreig> hmm. wonder if I have time to learn and use haskell for my optimisation coursework
[12:33] <adamgreig> maybe not even the best choice though. hum.
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[12:48] <Laurenceb> http://forums.bit-tech.net/picture.php?albumid=652&pictureid=10057
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[13:20] <ibanezmatt13> afternoon
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[13:22] <DL1SGP> welcome back matt
[13:23] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[13:24] <DL1SGP> btw, how are your preps for amateur radio licence exams going?
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[13:25] <ibanezmatt13> erm
[13:25] <ibanezmatt13> I'll be honest, I'm not really "prepping"
[13:25] <DL1SGP> heh pity :)
[13:26] <adamgreig> ibanezmatt13: saw your simulator, very cool!
[13:26] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[13:26] <ibanezmatt13> it is!
[13:26] <adamgreig> should use python3 though ;)
[13:27] <ibanezmatt13> Not too hard to convert though :)
[13:27] <ibanezmatt13> I'll do it when I get home
[13:27] <adamgreig> haha no I did it
[13:27] <adamgreig> just your two print statements
[13:27] <adamgreig> need brackets
[13:27] <ibanezmatt13> Ah ok
[13:27] <ibanezmatt13> coo
[13:27] <adamgreig> and to be honest you could not have print statements
[13:27] <ibanezmatt13> l
[13:27] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I know, just looks awesome :)
[13:27] <adamgreig> but yea it's very neat! maybe you could not print out reams of numbers anyway
[13:28] <ibanezmatt13> for development, that's a good thing, for the user, yes, print statements will be reduced
[13:29] <adamgreig> yea fe
[13:30] <mfa298> learn to have command line options :D
[13:30] <mfa298> that way you can have a --debug flag which prints lots of information if needed.
[13:31] <ibanezmatt13> good idea
[13:31] <ibanezmatt13> I think the next step is working on letting the user choose from a range of motors, or enter their own motor information
[13:32] <ibanezmatt13> Same for parachutes
[13:32] <ibanezmatt13> And after all that, get everything working in a 3-D plane :)
[13:32] <adamgreig> motor stuff'd be very cool
[13:34] <ibanezmatt13> would indeed
[13:35] <ibanezmatt13> I'm gonna look at modelling thrust curves for different motors instead of having an array that's like 50N for 3 seconds straight
[13:35] <daveake> yes that would be good
[13:35] <daveake> and reducing weight as the motor expires
[13:35] <ibanezmatt13> ah yes of course
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> good point
[13:36] <daveake> then you can add the staging :p
[13:36] Action: ibanezmatt13 sees some differentiation on the horizon
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> yes I can
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> this is mainly for small model rockets, but I'm gradually building it up
[13:36] <daveake> sure
[13:36] <daveake> best way
[13:37] <ibanezmatt13> Can you run Python programs as proper programs?
[13:37] <eroomde> yes
[13:37] <ibanezmatt13> good
[13:37] <eroomde> also yes to motor mass reduction, though it's small bananas on your little estes motors
[13:37] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I can imagine
[13:38] Action: daveake slaps himself for saying "weight" not "mass"
[13:38] <ibanezmatt13> I've tidied the code a little too eroomde. Smaller variable names, more functions
[13:38] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[13:38] <eroomde> good!
[13:38] <eroomde> my neck was hurting from those 200 char lines
[13:38] <daveake> Smaller variable names?
[13:38] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, everything just about fits now
[13:38] <daveake> ah
[13:38] <ibanezmatt13> yes I had names like coefficient_of_drag
[13:39] <daveake> OK
[13:39] <ibanezmatt13> gravitational_acceleration which I renamed 'g'
[13:39] <daveake> Just make sure it's still obvious what it represents
[13:39] <eroomde> get_the_maximum_altitude()
[13:39] <ibanezmatt13> yes, some names like "frontal_area" I kept the same
[13:39] <eroomde> I'd just call that A
[13:39] <eroomde> but that's me
[13:39] <eroomde> i'm used to see the drag equations
[13:39] <eroomde> rather than words
[13:39] <ibanezmatt13> I thought about it, but realised I'd get confused
[13:40] <ibanezmatt13> I changed coefficient_of_drag to Cd, because I seem to have that drummed into my mind somehow
[13:40] <eroomde> so 0.5*d*V^2*Cd*A makes immediately much more sense to me as to what's going on
[13:40] <eroomde> yes
[13:40] <eroomde> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_equation
[13:40] <eroomde> there she is
[13:41] <ibanezmatt13> so eroomde, you reckon modelling the thrust curves of actual motors is the next step, or is there something else I should do first as I build up?
[13:41] <eroomde> real motors would be useful
[13:41] <eroomde> i'd actually build your rocket
[13:41] <eroomde> and tune it for that
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[13:41] <eroomde> and see how well it works
[13:41] <ibanezmatt13> so I should leave the predictor and go design my rocket!? :)
[13:41] <ibanezmatt13> for now
[13:41] <eroomde> also once you have motor profile there's another thing you might enjoy
[13:42] <eroomde> 3D stuff is some more complicated maths that you might not want to tackle until you'd done matrices and are happier with things like moments of inertia
[13:42] <ibanezmatt13> yeah
[13:42] <eroomde> but you could do another useful technique which is to see how changes to input paramaters affect the flight
[13:42] <eroomde> so for example, some uncertainty in Cd
[13:43] <eroomde> some uncertainty in motor thrust
[13:43] <eroomde> so uncertainty in atmospheric pressure
[13:43] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, good idea
[13:43] <eroomde> the way you do this is to run the simulator with hundred or thousands of different inputs chosen at random but from some distribution
[13:43] <eroomde> so for example, you might make the Cd 0.3+/- 0.05
[13:44] <eroomde> and every time you run a sim, you pick a value at random from that range
[13:44] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I see that would be quite useful
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[13:44] <eroomde> and if you do like 1000 runs, you can do a historgram of max altitudes or flight times or whatever
[13:45] <ibanezmatt13> all this will certainly make a nice program
[13:45] <eroomde> and that can give you a mean but also let you see how spread it is - so for example you might be able to say that you're 90% confident it'll go to 1000m +/- 100m
[13:45] <eroomde> or it might show you that you can be 90% confident it'll be 1000m +/- 300m
[13:45] <ibanezmatt13> ah, so stats is useful then ;)
[13:45] <eroomde> yes!
[13:45] <eroomde> so often in engineering we have to be sure something should work with a given confidence level
[13:46] <eroomde> so lets say your rocket launch site had a limit of 200m altitude
[13:46] <eroomde> they would want you to be, say, 95% confident you'll be beneath that
[13:46] <ibanezmatt13> yes, I see
[13:51] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde, you seeing my PM?
[13:51] <ibanezmatt13> thought I'd gone offline, daft internet
[13:57] <fsphil> oh nice, iss photo from the ground: http://www.cieletespace.fr/files/image_du_jour/ISS_Bianconi_660.jpg
[13:58] <ibanezmatt13> awesome
[13:58] <ibanezmatt13> can you see NORB docked to it?
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[14:12] <ibanezmatt13> right, off to Maths
[14:12] <ibanezmatt13> see you later :)
[14:12] <adamgreig> enjoy
[14:12] <ibanezmatt13> how can one not enjoy stats... :p
[14:13] <adamgreig> my phd is pretty much in applied stats
[14:13] <ibanezmatt13> yikes
[14:13] <adamgreig> lol
[14:13] <ibanezmatt13> anyways, see you :)
[14:13] <adamgreig> many things turn out to be applied stats
[14:13] <adamgreig> seeya
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[14:13] <adamgreig> eroomde: nice gentle introduction to stochastic methods there
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[14:32] <eroomde> save the jargon for when it's needed :)
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[14:33] <adamgreig> my stupid practical optimisation cw2 is travelling "student"
[14:33] <adamgreig> we get a jpeg with some points on it on a cambridge map
[14:33] <adamgreig> step one is look up coordinates for each point
[14:33] <adamgreig> then find optimal route between all points, assuming you walk in straight lines between all of them
[14:33] <adamgreig> using simulated annealing or whatever
[14:33] <adamgreig> looking up coordinates feels somewhat stupid
[14:34] <adamgreig> guess I can just use pixel coords
[14:34] <adamgreig> ignoring road networks is sad
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[14:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> afternoon all
[14:47] <DL1SGP> Tom, nice to read you
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[14:47] <DL1SGP> likewise good afternoon to you
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[14:53] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: hi :-)
[14:54] <DL1SGP> how are the tests going?
[14:54] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: final TX stage is ready ;-)
[14:55] <DL1SGP> great
[14:55] <SP9UOB-Tom> about 500 mW @75 ohm
[14:55] <DL1SGP> oh nice
[14:56] <DL1SGP> so there is hope I gonna hear it once it is in air :)
[14:56] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: i hope so :-)
[14:57] <SP9UOB-Tom> there also be 70cm tracker as backup
[14:57] <eroomde> adamgreig, that sounds quite fun
[14:57] <adamgreig> it does! as a coursework I'm quite excited to try it
[14:57] <DL1SGP> yeah but if trend stays towards the east then I won't be hearing anything much of the 70cm :D
[14:57] <eroomde> a fun excuse to try simulated annealing
[14:57] <adamgreig> but a bit disappointed that we're meant to like, read coordinates of a jpeg of a map or something stupid
[14:58] <adamgreig> also would enjoy trying to make it use real roads
[14:58] <adamgreig> but then you need to build in route finding A->B and get the distance
[14:58] <eroomde> grab the open streemap data
[14:58] <adamgreig> yea exactly
[14:59] <adamgreig> it's got insane levels of detail for cambridge
[14:59] <adamgreig> but routing on it is still slightly non trivial
[14:59] <adamgreig> and can't really use a web service
[14:59] <eroomde> nvm
[15:00] <adamgreig> hmm
[15:00] <eroomde> the 3GB of packages needed to bumpt to 13.10 takes a while on out 2MB wireless internet link
[15:00] <adamgreig> oh ouch
[15:00] <eroomde> on our 2MB/s*
[15:00] <adamgreig> yes I can imagine
[15:00] <eroomde> the best thing westcott could do for us is fibre
[15:04] <eroomde> i'm on a bit of a programming language nose picking asside atm so please ignore it all and don't take it too seriously
[15:04] <eroomde> but what there needs to be is
[15:05] <nats`> oky I have my samples to test my verilog
[15:05] <nats`> :)
[15:06] <eroomde> perhaps starting from c
[15:06] <eroomde> a language with no garbage collection
[15:06] <eroomde> no header files
[15:06] <eroomde> no circular deps
[15:06] <eroomde> methods that can be declared as functions
[15:07] <eroomde> no 'this' in methods
[15:07] <eroomde> segmented stacks
[15:07] <fsphil> still my fav langauge
[15:07] <eroomde> and array bounds checking
[15:08] <eroomde> so basically like a non garbage collected go
[15:08] <nats`> you want to do the D from digital mars in fact ? :D
[15:08] <eroomde> that is great for numbers
[15:08] <adamgreig> can't you just disable the go gc
[15:08] <nats`> optionnal garbage collector no more preproc optionnal array checking
[15:08] <nats`> :D
[15:08] <eroomde> let's you define types andmetatypes (like matrices) fairly easily
[15:08] <eroomde> like c++ but with a lot less garbage
[15:08] <nats`> http://dlang.org/
[15:08] <eroomde> sort of simpler
[15:08] <fsphil> what's Go like .. I've not played with it yet?
[15:08] <fsphil> there's a project for tonight
[15:08] <eroomde> i did a few demos and saw that it was nice
[15:09] <eroomde> but i'd like it to work embedded and in real-time things
[15:09] <fsphil> C++ is horrible
[15:09] <eroomde> i don't like gc
[15:09] <fsphil> it encourages bad coding
[15:09] <nats`> eroomde give a try to the D (I think this is sad there are so few lib for it)
[15:09] <eroomde> http://www.rust-lang.org/
[15:09] <eroomde> this looks nice too
[15:10] <adamgreig> I hear nice things about Rust
[15:10] <eroomde> i think rust seems to be the nearest thing to what i want
[15:10] <eroomde> which is sort of C++ but without half of it and especially without things that let you kill yourself
[15:10] <eroomde> and more functionalness
[15:10] <eroomde> because that's nice
[15:10] <fsphil> C with python's lists
[15:10] <adamgreig> it does look pretty nice
[15:10] <fsphil> that'd be nice
[15:11] <adamgreig> so like rust ;)
[15:11] <fsphil> I've never heard of that one .. just reading about it
[15:12] <eroomde> yeah, that little code snipped does just look like python in c
[15:12] <fsphil> Go has a cute mascot. that's pretty important
[15:13] <eroomde> i think i'm going to have a late one tonight on SICP
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[15:13] <fsphil> I'd worry about hitting bugs in the compiler, going outside the established languages
[15:13] <eroomde> yeah indeed, i'm sure rust could cut you
[15:14] <eroomde> and give you tetanus
[15:14] <fsphil> spend hours trying to figure out if it's just me misunderstanding the language or the compiler doing a bad thing
[15:15] <nats`> fsphil that's the point of taking language already well supported
[15:15] <eroomde> i found some scipy bugs today
[15:15] <eroomde> that was fun
[15:15] <nats`> that's why I gave a try to D because it's digital amrs behind and some stuff like gtk lib are already ported
[15:15] <nats`> so you can have relative trust in it
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[15:16] <adamgreig> eroomde: that is always mildly upsetting. they do fix them up fairly often I find
[15:16] <eroomde> yeah, C++11 looks to have gone a bit in the direction of D
[15:16] <eroomde> i.e. type inference in function returns and stuff
[15:16] <eroomde> e.g.*
[15:16] <nats`> if I was the leader of that I would say drop C++ and declare D as new C++
[15:16] <nats`> they removed so much awfull stuff
[15:17] <fsphil> sounds good
[15:17] <eroomde> and nice, they have slices and ranges
[15:17] <eroomde> that's just nice
[15:17] <eroomde> well, i can still see the appeal of C++
[15:17] <eroomde> like, when it's complicated and has to be fast
[15:17] <fsphil> the idea of C++ is alright
[15:17] <nats`> eroomde I don't understand it
[15:17] <fsphil> just did it badly
[15:18] <nats`> I loved C++ but now you can plug C part on higher language like .net stuff or python
[15:18] <eroomde> i have total faith in the ability of a smart person with C++ to beat off all others if it came to number crunching throughput
[15:18] <eroomde> but it's just a shit to get there
[15:18] <nats`> that's easier and work well so I don't understand C++ anymore
[15:18] <eroomde> yeah, the multilanguage thing i like too
[15:18] <adamgreig> eroomde: even FORTRAN? :P
[15:19] <eroomde> but had an emotional time writing a very multicore python module in c++
[15:19] <adamgreig> OpenCL?
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[15:19] <eroomde> well, i'm treating that more as a library than a language
[15:19] <adamgreig> it's definitely a language >_>
[15:19] <nats`> +1
[15:19] <nats`> it's a language but you don't run it in 'independant mode'
[15:20] <adamgreig> sure
[15:20] <nats`> you have to load it in a hardware
[15:20] <nats`> I do the same with verilog I modelize that as a module with IO for the C code
[15:20] <nats`> (not sure that's a good way to do it but anyway I do it :p)
[15:20] <eroomde> so learn OpenCL over CUDA?
[15:20] <adamgreig> imo yes
[15:21] <adamgreig> OpenCL runs on CPUs, nvidia and AMD GPUs, and APUs etc
[15:21] <adamgreig> CUDA runs only on nvidia GPUs
[15:21] <adamgreig> additionally I preferred the OpenCL syntax and style and naming and stuff
[15:21] <adamgreig> and like to think it's going to end up more popular
[15:21] <eroomde> ok cool
[15:21] <adamgreig> MATLAB uses CUDA though, and some existing libraries are for CUDA
[15:21] <adamgreig> CUDA was first, basically
[15:22] <eroomde> how does it abstract across different processors when so much of the algorithm design is specific for the processor?
[15:22] <adamgreig> the core abstraction is the work grid
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[15:22] <eroomde> i.e. writing GPU specific code
[15:22] <adamgreig> ?
[15:22] <adamgreig> you don't write GPU specific code
[15:22] <adamgreig> you write code to fit a processing model
[15:22] <eroomde> sorry yes, what i mean is
[15:22] <adamgreig> which involves work units and work groups and registers and local memory and stuff
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[15:23] <adamgreig> typically the only practical difference between a GPU and a CPU is that they have different optimal sizes for executing things, which your host code can determine at runtime
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[15:23] <adamgreig> but different GPUs do too anyway
[15:24] <eroomde> ok dokey
[15:24] <adamgreig> and mostly it works very well anyway
[15:24] <adamgreig> essentially you write a function and it will be run very many times for different 1, 2 or 3d positions in some space
[15:24] <adamgreig> you can use the position in space to access different data or do different computation or whatever
[15:25] <adamgreig> each position on the grid is one work unit
[15:25] <adamgreig> but many work units run together, spatially grouped (in group sizes you define, maybe a long slice, or a cube, or..), in a work group
[15:25] <adamgreig> work groups share local memory
[15:25] <adamgreig> (work units each have small amounts of private memory)
[15:26] <adamgreig> the GPU might be running several work groups at the same time, or starting and stopping them arbitrarily depending on resources, memory delays, etc etc
[15:26] <adamgreig> work units inside a work group run in lockstep
[15:26] <fsphil> is opencl supported well by any of the open source gpu drivers?
[15:26] <adamgreig> but the whole group might be switched on/off processing while it waits for memory transfers or something
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[15:26] <adamgreig> fsphil: not sure. don't think so but haven't looked into it.
[15:27] <adamgreig> you then have global memory which is the GPU's actual memory area, and you have host memory which is your RAM, and copies between the two are explicit
[15:27] <adamgreig> then you have to think about things like coalesced memory access
[15:27] <adamgreig> if you were running on a 1d grid, it'd be nice if each work unit accessed a corresponding and sequential address in memory, because the GPU memory can do a wide load
[15:28] <adamgreig> you can do specific synchronisation too, putting barriers on local/global memory and thread steps etc
[15:28] <fsphil> ooh nouveau seems to have some opencl support
[15:28] <adamgreig> ooh nice
[15:29] <eroomde> bbiab
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[15:34] <eroomde> bk
[15:34] <eroomde> thought i'd switch to laptop as various things started going wrong on my pc as it's doing the OS upgrade
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[15:35] <fsphil> I'm too chicken to do an upgrade. always install fresh
[15:37] <eroomde> if it all goes to crap i'll just install debian
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[15:38] <fsphil> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24821528
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Not huge surprises.
[15:39] <fsphil> yea I think the last big password leak had the same one at the top
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> I wonder how many passwords are Correct horse battery staple.
[15:40] <adamgreig> wow, wonder how they got the top 20 already
[15:40] <adamgreig> it's encrypted...
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: The passwords were not salted as I understand it.
[15:41] <adamgreig> unless there are substantial intersections with the other leaked sets
[15:41] <adamgreig> they weren't hashed SpeedEvil
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> You simply take a dictionary, and run each word seperately with 3des
[15:41] <adamgreig> they're just 3DES in EBC
[15:41] <adamgreig> ECB
[15:41] <adamgreig> uhm no
[15:41] <adamgreig> need the key
[15:41] <adamgreig> not a hash
[15:41] <adamgreig> reversible crypto
[15:41] <adamgreig> has a key
[15:41] <fsphil> oooch
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> Right
[15:41] <adamgreig> if the key leaks, all 130m passwords are gonners
[15:41] Action: SpeedEvil is not quite awake.
[15:42] <adamgreig> a few are easy b/c the file had password hints too
[15:42] <fsphil> from the company that brings you flash
[15:42] <adamgreig> and you can see who had the same passwords
[15:42] <fsphil> yay
[15:42] <adamgreig> there were some 4k @cam.ac.uk people in it
[15:42] <mfa298> A good lesson in why you should use a hash with a random salt.
[15:42] <adamgreig> of whom 80 have appeared in my inbox in the last 4 years
[15:42] <Andrew_M6GTG> amazing what you find on the web, stumbled across some 2001 73' magazines describing a 433MHz rocket telemetry system
[15:43] <adamgreig> mfa298: their new system is sha256 with 1k iterations or something
[15:43] <adamgreig> hash with salt is NOT good enough any more
[15:43] <DL1SGP> yeah, crypt it, do not hash it in any way
[15:43] <adamgreig> you need something that is exceedingly computationally expensive, like bcrypt or pbkdf2
[15:43] <mfa298> true, although still many times better than reversible encryption for passwords.
[15:44] <adamgreig> not really - so far the key is unknown and there are some 2^128 odd possible keys
[15:44] <adamgreig> no one's broken 3DES either
[15:44] <adamgreig> there might be some known plaintext attacks but there's not much known plaintext here
[15:44] <adamgreig> if the key leaks obviously that's super bad
[15:44] <adamgreig> but if they'd just done SHA256+salt almost all these passwords would be broken already
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[15:44] <fsphil> if they already know what some of these passwords are, they's gotta help them narrow down on the key
[15:44] <adamgreig> no
[15:44] <adamgreig> it shouldn't
[15:44] <adamgreig> with a good crypto system
[15:44] <adamgreig> only if there's a known-plaintext attack
[15:44] <adamgreig> and it's not clear that there are for 3des
[15:44] <adamgreig> and even if there are, you want gigabytes of plaintext
[15:45] <adamgreig> and at best you have a few hundred bytes
[15:45] <fsphil> what's the weakness in sha256+salt?
[15:45] <adamgreig> it's easy to compute quickly
[15:45] <fsphil> right
[15:45] <adamgreig> it used to be hard to compute quickly, but now it's not
[15:45] <adamgreig> hash functions are fundamentally designed to be v quick
[15:46] <adamgreig> so are not good for passwords
[15:46] <adamgreig> hence bcrypt, scrypt, pbkdf2
[15:46] <adamgreig> which are veeery slow and shouldn't be possible to short circuit
[15:46] <adamgreig> plus, you can update how slow they are over time
[15:46] <adamgreig> so as computers get faster you can keep a constant time-per-hash of say 300ms
[15:47] <adamgreig> [by recomputing the hash when the user logs in, if required -- so if the user never logs in you still have some issues]
[15:47] <eroomde> what's the best password manager?
[15:47] <adamgreig> the real lesson though is to never do your own password hashing
[15:47] <eroomde> cross platform + mobile
[15:47] <adamgreig> eroomde: I really like lastpass with a premium subscription
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: Well - it's not that bad - for aproperly designed hash.
[15:47] <adamgreig> lets you use OTP or a yubikey (physical hardware thing)
[15:47] <adamgreig> SpeedEvil: what isn't that bad?
[15:47] <eroomde> OTP?
[15:47] <adamgreig> and has mobile and cross platform on everything
[15:47] <adamgreig> one time password, liek the google authenticator thing
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: From 1980 to now, random single byte accesshas gotten about 30* faster.
[15:47] <eroomde> ah right
[15:47] <eroomde> cool
[15:48] <mfa298> the downside with the 3des unsalted passwords here is that you can determine the popular passwords and then try the dictionary attacks on them and probably get a lot of user accounts very quickly.
[15:48] <adamgreig> yubikey is a little USB dongle that does a crypto thing
[15:48] <adamgreig> mfa298: ???
[15:48] <adamgreig> you can't do dictionary attacks
[15:48] <adamgreig> don't know key
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: So - if you can bust the L3 cache size - and make the problem hit main memory
[15:48] <adamgreig> "123456" encrypts to the same value every time
[15:48] <adamgreig> so you can instantly tell who has that as their password
[15:48] <adamgreig> but you can't tell it's that password
[15:48] <adamgreig> you can just say "these users all share a password"
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> The key is 144 bits?
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[15:49] <adamgreig> SpeedEvil: not clear what the key size is
[15:49] <adamgreig> 56 to 128 bits
[15:49] <adamgreig> iirc
[15:49] <adamgreig> if you happen to have their password from a separate leak, or because their password hint was their password, then you know everyone else with the same password
[15:49] <adamgreig> but you can't dictionary attack
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[15:49] <adamgreig> eroomde: while in theory lastpass can't access your passwords (encrypted with your passphrase)
[15:49] <UT3BW> http://stratocaching.idnes.cz/
[15:49] <mfa298> working on the principle that most people use the same password for all sites you don't have to dictionary attack that list.
[15:49] <adamgreig> today I am uncomfortable because lastpass could modify their website to record the passphrase and thus get access to your passwords
[15:49] <adamgreig> wasn't a concern pre-lavabit really
[15:50] <eroomde> how much is lastpass premium?
[15:50] <adamgreig> but now it depends on how important your secrecy is, esp. wrt american industrial espionage
[15:50] <adamgreig> like $1/mo
[15:50] <eroomde> ok
[15:50] <eroomde> yeah, the american industrial espionage thing is the bit that worries me
[15:50] <adamgreig> if you want a non-hosted solution
[15:50] <adamgreig> DanielRichman uses and likes keepassX iirc
[15:50] <adamgreig> which is fully cross platform inc ios/android
[15:50] <mfa298> it would be fairly easy to try dictionary attacks against other well known/used services with a range of usernames from a range of hosts you control and generate a lookup table for the common encrypted passwords on that list.
[15:50] <adamgreig> and local
[15:51] <adamgreig> mfa298: yes - especially given as there have been a few other high profile leaks recently of hashed passwords
[15:51] <eroomde> so you're saying the attack would be send your master password back to their server somehow?
[15:51] <adamgreig> whicih is how that list on the BBC was generated
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[15:51] <adamgreig> eroomde: I'm saying they push an update to the android app or chrome extension or you log into their website
[15:51] <adamgreig> and one of those things sends them your password, or a decrypted copy of your vault, or..
[15:51] <adamgreig> additionally there's a quasi password reset feature
[15:52] <adamgreig> whereby the browser plugin or app keeps a copy of a spare key
[15:52] <adamgreig> lastpass keep half of it
[15:52] <adamgreig> if you go through lastpass's email auth, they'll email you the code you need to have your local plugin unlock the vault
[15:52] <adamgreig> uh
[15:52] <adamgreig> basically a one time password
[15:52] <adamgreig> as designed their system is about as secure as a hosted one could get, but since you talk to their server and use their apps there are numerous ways it could go quietly sad, especially post-lavabit
[15:53] <adamgreig> trivially so, even
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[15:53] <adamgreig> but then I now have the same issue with dropbox and gmail
[15:54] <eroomde> tricksie
[15:54] <adamgreig> mm
[15:54] <adamgreig> it's not great
[15:54] <adamgreig> keepassX is nice being all local
[15:54] <adamgreig> but much worse browser integration and you have to sync your vault yourself
[15:55] <BrainDamage> the real solution would be to allow certificate auth
[15:55] <adamgreig> not sure
[15:55] <adamgreig> what cert do you trust?
[15:55] <BrainDamage> your own
[15:55] <BrainDamage> there's no need for CA
[15:55] <adamgreig> all the major top level authorities are on US soil anyway
[15:56] <BrainDamage> there's no need for ca
[15:56] <adamgreig> well then you have to bootstrap some kind of trust system over the internet
[15:56] <BrainDamage> just like there's the need for user+pw
[15:56] <adamgreig> eroomde: in theory even logging into the web site for lastpass does the crypto in-browser
[15:56] <BrainDamage> instead of sending user+pw you send a public key
[15:56] <adamgreig> just, they can change the javascript they send your browser...
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[15:56] <adamgreig> BrainDamage: how do you circumvent MITM then?
[15:56] <adamgreig> need established trust
[15:56] <eroomde> yes, that's what i understood the weakness to be
[15:56] <mfa298> certs with a CA should still be secure. The CA only ever sees your public key and signs it with their private key to say they trust it.
[15:56] <BrainDamage> it doesn't replace aith
[15:57] <BrainDamage> auth*
[15:57] <BrainDamage> it implies the channel was autenthicated to begin with
[15:57] <eroomde> i wonder if, given the js source is at least available, people would spot if it changed
[15:57] <BrainDamage> this sits on higher level
[15:57] <adamgreig> mfa298: right, but they can sign someone else's public key and say it was for your domain and now MITM proceeds silently
[15:57] <adamgreig> eroomde: unless it was just for you, of course
[15:57] <BrainDamage> so sits on top of regular ssl, or whatever
[15:57] <adamgreig> mfa298: so you can watch to see if the certificate you're getting for google.com changes
[15:57] <adamgreig> but then you need to know what it was and whether you can trust it at any point in time, or trust someone else saying what it is/was
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[15:58] <adamgreig> people have worked on that too - there are systems to do distributed cert checking
[15:58] <adamgreig> but it's similarly difficult to bootstrap
[15:58] <BrainDamage> it's just, no less secure than user+pw auth
[15:58] <BrainDamage> but much more handy
[15:58] <BrainDamage> one single thing to safe
[15:58] <mfa298> I think what BrainDamage was suggesting is using certs the other way for authentication (which is also supported by most browsers and web servers just not often used)
[15:58] <adamgreig> plus the other way around is problematic - probably the government can get the private key for many company's SSL and thus decrypt past and future traffic
[15:58] <BrainDamage> yep, it's just high level authentication
[15:58] <adamgreig> unless you have forward secrecy on, of course
[15:59] <adamgreig> right, you can do that, but you still have the initial problem
[15:59] <BrainDamage> sure, and?
[15:59] <adamgreig> and in any event lastpass is doing crypto with your passphrase
[15:59] <adamgreig> so why bother with the certs?
[15:59] <BrainDamage> because you have 1
[15:59] <adamgreig> does it add anything?
[15:59] <BrainDamage> you copy the certificate on any device, and you don't have to constantly sync
[15:59] <adamgreig> oh, like you're saying most websites (not just lastpass) should allow certs for user auth rather than passwords?
[15:59] <BrainDamage> yes
[15:59] <BrainDamage> or alongside
[16:00] <adamgreig> might be nice
[16:00] <adamgreig> some do
[16:00] <mfa298> certs can act as part of the two factor auth (something you have - the private key) and something you know (the password)
[16:00] <adamgreig> yea
[16:00] <adamgreig> best alongside I'd imagine rather than solely instead of
[16:00] <BrainDamage> and you could even have multiple set of key pairs
[16:00] <mfa298> although RSA secureID or similar is probably better for the something you have.
[16:00] <adamgreig> revocation becomes problematic and access from non-personal computers harder and stuff
[16:00] <BrainDamage> one for low security sites, like forums, etc
[16:00] <adamgreig> yea I think the totp stuff generally works better
[16:00] <BrainDamage> and another for higher
[16:01] <adamgreig> or a proper password manage so that your passwords are very long random strings
[16:01] <adamgreig> and different for each site
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[16:01] <BrainDamage> we're starting to carry a personal computer everywhere with phones
[16:01] <BrainDamage> the key could sit in protected storage
[16:01] <BrainDamage> altough arguably you could put there a keychain as well
[16:02] <BrainDamage> and put whatever pw you want to sync
[16:02] <adamgreig> eroomde: 1Password is also worth a look I guess
[16:02] <adamgreig> BrainDamage: nice until you lose your phone ;)
[16:02] <eroomde> my email is in that adobe list
[16:03] <eroomde> according to the bloom filter
[16:03] <eroomde> which is tiresome
[16:03] <adamgreig> huh
[16:03] <adamgreig> that is annoying
[16:03] <adamgreig> I can check with p=1 later if you want
[16:03] <adamgreig> do you reckon you set a password hint? ;)
[16:03] <BrainDamage> adamgreig: secure storage doesn't prevent backups
[16:03] <eroomde> so i might dl lastpass and go and change everything
[16:03] <eroomde> i'm sure i didn't
[16:03] <adamgreig> BrainDamage: some does >_>
[16:03] <adamgreig> eroomde: you should see the crsIDs in that list
[16:03] <adamgreig> they had the best password hints
[16:03] <eroomde> like what?
[16:03] <adamgreig> there were password hints in latin
[16:04] <adamgreig> more mentions of "my college" etc than I'd like
[16:04] <adamgreig> "my hermes password" was a sad one
[16:04] <Miek_> i was surprised to see the exact same hint for over 50k people with the 123456 password
[16:05] <eroomde> nice
[16:05] <DL1SGP> was the hint "idiot" ?
[16:05] <DL1SGP> :)
[16:05] <mfa298> I think half of my password hints are cryptic enough to not help anyone.
[16:05] <fsphil> "spaceballs"
[16:05] <Miek_> it was "1to6", so pretty much "idiot" :p
[16:06] <fsphil> haha
[16:08] <Ugi> eroomde: how did you find out that your e-mail was on the list? Did Adobe mail you?
[16:08] <Ugi> I don't think I have an Adobe account but who knows?
[16:08] <adamgreig> http://adobe.cynic.al/
[16:08] <adamgreig> has a (fairly accurate) check
[16:09] <adamgreig> else the list is public, that's what leaked means :P
[16:09] <Ugi> There is public and public... I'm not sure all hackers are pleased to give away their spoils.
[16:10] <Ugi> But thanks - I'll look.
[16:10] <adamgreig> that website is probably fine. it won't give a false negative.
[16:11] <fsphil> hmmm.. I don't remember registering but I'm on there
[16:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> me too :-(
[16:12] <adamgreig> somehow I'm not
[16:12] <adamgreig> guess I never really used any adobe stuff
[16:12] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I did register a long time back now for Adobe 8 acrobat
[16:12] <fsphil> changed
[16:13] <adamgreig> well if anyone needs reminding of their password hints just shout :P
[16:13] <fsphil> haha
[16:13] <fsphil> they don't allow you to login on the old password anyway
[16:13] <adamgreig> indeed
[16:13] <fsphil> required me to reset it
[16:13] <adamgreig> so long as you didn't use it anywhere else
[16:13] <mfa298> now you just have to change that password on all the other sites you used it on
[16:14] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> can't remember what the p/w was !
[16:14] <mfa298> hopefully that means zero other password changes
[16:14] <fsphil> I use a different one for each site
[16:14] <fsphil> which sucks for the less frequently visited ones
[16:14] <adamgreig> password manager ftw
[16:15] <fsphil> do I trust that?
[16:15] <Miek_> mine didn't require a password reset :s
[16:15] <adamgreig> I trust it more than a password generating scheme for each site and/or remembering different ones for everything
[16:15] <adamgreig> admittedly I don't trust it for certain particularly vulnerable sites
[16:15] <adamgreig> but for the overwhelming majority of things, yea
[16:16] <fsphil> can't beat a notebook on the desk
[16:16] <adamgreig> :P
[16:16] <adamgreig> I like my passwords to be usefully over 20 characters and a random mix of upper and lower case letters, numbers and symbols, so..
[16:17] <adamgreig> notebooks get tedious
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4jP7Trrc8WE#t=143 - how to measure Mylar sheets resistance to tearing.
[16:17] <mfa298> you could always add additional security by having multiple usernames - especially as so many places use email addresses as usernames
[16:17] <fsphil> always gets me when a site limits how long your password can be, or what characters can be in it
[16:17] <fsphil> stop doing that
[16:18] <daveake> yup had one like that the other day
[16:18] <Miek_> that usually means it's in plaintext :x
[16:18] <mfa298> the worst offenders I've found for limiting characters are banks and credit cards
[16:18] <adamgreig> especially hate it when they truncate password boxes in javascript
[16:18] <daveake> They might as well have said "please type in an easily guessable password"
[16:18] <adamgreig> so my long password goes into them
[16:18] <adamgreig> and it's only using the first 10 digits
[16:18] <adamgreig> and then I can't log in again
[16:18] <fsphil> euuu
[16:19] <adamgreig> mm
[16:20] <adamgreig> or long and important but not frequently used ones
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[16:20] <adamgreig> first time I rebooted my phone was about two weeks after setting it up
[16:20] <adamgreig> with full disk crypto
[16:20] <adamgreig> could I remember a two week old password typed once? could I hell
[16:20] <adamgreig> and when I say "password" I mean more like "very long passphrase"
[16:21] <adamgreig> had to like, not use my phone all dinner or whatever. talk to people n stuff.
[16:21] <fsphil> oops
[16:22] <mfa298> next you'll be thinking about using an amateur radio license to actually talk to people.
[16:22] <adamgreig> heaven forbid
[16:22] <mfa298> it's a slippery slope :p
[16:22] <fsphil> I tried full disk encryption on my eeepc a while back. forgot the password for about two weeks, then it suddently came back to me
[16:22] <daveake> steady on
[16:22] <fsphil> brains are weird
[16:22] <adamgreig> yea in this case I had an encrypted backup of the passphrase back home. sadly I was out travelling for the weekend.
[16:22] <adamgreig> brains are very weird
[16:22] <gonzo_> leave the ham bands for when you have something to talk about. Like hospital appointments and who died
[16:23] <daveake> I have enough trouble when programming ... declare a variable as NumberOfThings then 1 minute later I'm doing ThingCount = ...
[16:23] <fsphil> my back is a bit sore, should I try 80m?
[16:24] <daveake> Only if it itches and is starting to smell
[16:24] <mfa298> well a problem shared is supposed to be a problem halved, although they'll probably share their ailments with you as well so you might not end up better off.
[16:25] <gonzo_> you can smell the decay as you tune lower in the hf band
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[16:25] <fsphil> people on 160m must be really bad?
[16:25] <mfa298> someone was suggesting 80m as being a good band for the FL license.
[16:26] <gonzo_> yep, musty have great ground penetration on that band!
[16:26] <fsphil> FL?
[16:26] Action: mfa298 dreads what it's like down at 136KHz
[16:26] <mfa298> Foundation License
[16:26] <fsphil> ah
[16:26] <Andrew_M6GTG> on 2m round here the illness talk is anon as most of the good old boys never use callsigns just first names
[16:26] <gonzo_> interetingly enough, on the vlf bandsm you start to run across all the microwave experimenters
[16:26] <fsphil> can't foundation users already use 80m?
[16:26] <fsphil> yea it's all data modes below 160m
[16:27] <fsphil> things get interesting again
[16:27] <mfa298> the talk is about limiting the bands they can use as an incentive to upgrade to Intermediate/Full
[16:27] <fsphil> ah
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[16:27] <fsphil> not sure I like that
[16:27] <fsphil> the power limit is enough
[16:27] <mfa298> with a lot of people initially saying 10m/vhf/uhf
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[16:28] <fsphil> I'd be quite happy for foundation to be on all bands
[16:28] <fsphil> gives them a chance to play with whatever they're interested in
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[16:28] <fsphil> if it was VHF only, it would be totally useless for me -- VHF and UHF is dead here
[16:28] <mfa298> I think the concern is that some foundation holders ignore the power limit. band restrictions becomes easier to enforce.
[16:28] <Andrew_M6GTG> fsphil: As a new M6 the current chat I've seen about the proposals makes me angry
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[16:29] <adamgreig> I think they should run more tests for higher licenses
[16:29] <adamgreig> the intermediate and full licenses are not difficult, but finding somewhere to sit the exam is
[16:29] <fsphil> I still use my foundation callsign when doing lower power stuff
[16:29] <mfa298> Andrew_M6GTG: if you've not already got onto the forum it might be worth getting on there to make the foundation point get heard
[16:29] <Andrew_M6GTG> I registered today ;-)
[16:29] <adamgreig> and I imagine if it were relatively straightforward to get the full license many people probably would as a matter of course?
[16:30] <fsphil> took me ages to get my intermediate and full
[16:30] <mfa298> I think it's likely the bands for foundation are going to get more restriced (although possibly only for new users) but hopefully there's still a fight about how restricted or not it becomes.
[16:30] <adamgreig> fsphil: because of studying hard or because no one was running exams?
[16:31] <fsphil> nobody running one
[16:31] <adamgreig> right
[16:31] <adamgreig> that seems to be more the issue
[16:31] <daveake> ditto
[16:31] <DL1SGP> indeed adamgreig I also think that the 3 level approach gives a fine ability to try out the hobby first, and grow into it to proceed from experience and interest and not just having learned answers by heard to get a pass mark
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[16:31] <adamgreig> right
[16:31] <daveake> local club was supposed to do the inter in Sept but postponed till next year
[16:31] <adamgreig> though I wouldn't want like "you must have a foundation for this long to get full" or any such nonsense ;)
[16:31] <Andrew_M6GTG> so the licence progression is all about experimentation and learning yet most of the 'old boys' giving the 'foundation' is rubbish just go out and buy the latest shack in the box, latest prebuilt antenna and never do anything else
[16:32] <mfa298> There's been a few comments about how easy (or not) it is to find exams to progress
[16:32] <daveake> no that's silly
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[16:32] <mfa298> and also about direct entry into the different license levels.
[16:32] <adamgreig> interesting
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[16:33] <eroomde> i would have liked direct entry
[16:34] <adamgreig> same
[16:34] <mfa298> I was one of the early people to comment on direct entry and vaguely refereced Leo.
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[16:36] Action: DL1SGP wonders if Leo floated to Cayman Islands
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[16:36] <gonzo_> you prob saw my comments about the limited scope of most clubs, where the old lads just talk on HF and bugger all else happens
[16:37] <eroomde> yes, having to not be able to get a full license for a month just so they can check you know ohms law was a bit galling
[16:37] <eroomde> the poor guy giving us the exam was very apologetic about it all
[16:37] <gonzo_> if you listen on HF, you would think that all the experiemntation is limited to trying some new mic with the black box radio
[16:38] <DL1SGP> gonzo_: do not forget trying what the switch on the back of the mic does :)
[16:39] <gonzo_> There really is little point even considering building an HF set tbh. But there are other things to play with and progress.
[16:39] <eroomde> adamgreig, have gone with lastpass
[16:39] <eroomde> basically to fight against online fraud and not the nsa
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[16:39] <gonzo_> but as the AR community gets older, you get a limited view of what is out there to enthuse
[16:39] <eroomde> if the nsa want my gmail, they'll get it
[16:40] <eroomde> and then they'll have everything, because they can just do 'have you forgot your password' emails to all the services
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[16:41] <adamgreig> yea if you're already storing confidential things on gmail then the game's already up for state-level entities really
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[16:41] <fsphil> my gmail account is basically full of someone with the same name as me's email
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[16:42] <gonzo_> all the 'free' online storeage there is to backup to the cloud... Do people not question who pays for all this expensive server storeage.... Should really call it 'backup to .gov'
[16:43] <Andrew_M6GTG> I approached another club a while back about getting licenced, the instructor asked what I was interested in, mentioned receiving satellites, digimodes, sdr, sstv etc "Oh we aren't into all that computer malarky it's not proper radio"
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[16:43] <fsphil> oh I hate that kind of response Andrew_M6GTG
[16:43] <adamgreig> meh
[16:43] <adamgreig> they'll all be dead soon
[16:43] <fsphil> lol
[16:43] <Andrew_M6GTG> I made my excuses and never went back
[16:44] <mfa298> I'd be tempted to ask them what their miles/watt ratio is for their comms methods.
[16:44] <fsphil> a lot of these people would be equally happy on CB - but they'd shout at you for the suggestion :)
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> 'morse, coherers, alexanderson alternators.
[16:44] <gonzo_> we have about an equal ratio of doers and chatters. (And the rest are just chat-over-tea-ers)
[16:45] <gonzo_> at the mo ofcom has an interesting consultation on allowing SSB CB in the UK
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[16:46] <mfa298> that could be interesting as I think for CB SSB they can use more power than the FL
[16:46] <mfa298> although 2W probably won't make much difference.
[16:47] <mfa298> and I can't remember if that's using the same measurements.
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[16:48] <gonzo_> uk used to be limited to 4W and a silly short antenna (so low erp). Relaxed to effectivly 4W erp-d
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[16:49] <mfa298> I think the changes keep 4W for FM, and add AM @4W and SSB @12W
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[16:49] <mfa298> 3.10 In line with the Decision, we propose to limit the maximum effective radiated power for AM transmission on CB radio to 4 Watts (measured as a root mean square) for DSB modulation, and 12 Watts ( measured as a peak envelope power) for SSB modulation.
[16:49] <mfa298> from the consultation PDF
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[16:50] <mfa298> and I think CB is still supposedly limited to antennas under a certain length, although I've not checked the terms for a while
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[16:51] <Andrew_M6GTG> mfa298: you are not meant to swear or play music either.. doesn't stop them ;-)
[16:51] <chrisstubbs> Steve_G0TDJ, Did I send you the link of the video from your first launch in the end?
[16:51] <fsphil> there are churches that broadcast their sunday services on CB -- pretty sure that's illegal too. naughty christians :)
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[16:52] <mfa298> Andrew_M6GTG: I think for CB there's quite a big gap between whats legal and what's done.
[16:53] <gonzo_> a while ago they withdrew the spec for making the 27/81 sets (27.601-27.991) with the intention of passing the band over for community broadcasting (god-botherers etc)
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[16:54] <gonzo_> think it's still legal to sell and use radios, just not make any more
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[16:54] <eroomde> adamgreig, right, am LastPassed and premiumed
[16:54] <gonzo_> still lots of 27/95 sets on sale. They do the EU and UK chans
[16:54] <adamgreig> cool
[16:54] <eroomde> have changed amazon, paypal, ebay and so on to new random passwords
[16:54] <adamgreig> did you get/consider a yubikey or going with google auth or similar?
[16:54] <eroomde> hope that'll be ok for now
[16:55] <adamgreig> would imagine so. try to get into the habit of changing passwords as you use them from now on too
[16:55] <eroomde> i didn't want to do 2 factor for everything
[16:55] <eroomde> yes i will
[16:55] <adamgreig> for sites not yet lastpast'd
[16:55] <eroomde> i have 2 factor on my gmail
[16:55] <adamgreig> well fe, but it's just 2 factor to unlock your vault
[16:55] <eroomde> ah right
[16:55] <eroomde> ok
[16:55] <eroomde> that could be worth it
[16:55] <mfa298> looks like the AM/SSB is only on the EU channels, the UK channels look to be FM only
[16:55] <adamgreig> like, each time you load your browser from fresh, or log in on your phone or whatever
[16:55] <adamgreig> then stays til you log out of the vault
[16:56] <adamgreig> so like I don't tend to have to do it often
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[16:56] <adamgreig> only as often as you type your password in basically
[16:56] <gonzo_> mfa298, that sounds about right. They always intended to phase out the UK chans. (stupid idea they were from the start)
[16:56] <adamgreig> (though I have mine set to require typing the password in to show/copy passwords out of lastpass too)
[16:56] <Andrew_M6GTG> mfa298: UK channels were just to annoy everyone back in 81
[16:57] <gonzo_> it was a spoiler to all the people campaigning to legalise cb back then.
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[16:58] <eroomde> ok, will hunt around in the settings adamgreig
[16:58] <gonzo_> they had one minister famously stood up in the commons and said that they did not think that it was sebnsible to allow the general public to be in easy communications with one another, then in the distance a phone rang
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[16:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hey chrisstubbs Sorry, having connection issues here
[16:59] <gonzo_> then the were falling over themsleves to sell bands to the mobile phone companies, only a few years later
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[17:01] <mfa298> checking wikipedia it looks like the antenna restrictions are lifted (and I couldn't see any reference to antennas in the proposed terms allowing AM/SSB)
[17:01] <Andrew_M6GTG> remember 1981? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTZl8Wg6gcI
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[17:03] <Laurenceb> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags/1732454#1732454
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[17:11] Nick change: Matt_soton -> mattbrejza_
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[17:12] <cm13g09> mattbrejza_: was so much better as Matt_soton.
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[17:12] <cm13g09> At least we all knew where you were then :P
[17:12] <mattbrejza_> na tahts my old nick
[17:13] <mattbrejza_> but cant find where in irssi it has that setting
[17:13] <mattbrejza_> so every time have to change nick on connect
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[17:15] <jonsowman> /set nick
[17:15] Nick change: mattbrejza_ -> matt_brejza
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[17:15] Nick change: matt_brejza -> mattbrejza
[17:15] <mfa298> edit the config file and look for nick
[17:15] <mattbrejza> we shall see if that works next time i accidently close irssi
[17:16] <mfa298> you might need to /save as well
[17:16] <mattbrejza> which is normally after a reset and 'pause' isnt remapped to media
[17:16] <mattbrejza> should really add that to startup
[17:16] <cm13g09> o....k....
[17:17] <cm13g09> Since when was True not a valid Boolean!
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[17:19] <Willdude> ping Upu
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[17:20] <Willdude> Server changed node, IP change, need the subdomain to point to my server and I think the nameserver is hosted by you
[17:24] <Andrew_M6GTG> anyone ever tried to use an alpha-tx443s transmitter for HAB?
[17:25] <eroomde> not I
[17:26] <Andrew_M6GTG> datasheet is a bit vague
[17:26] <mfa298> I think I got one of those to play with, but other than stick it on some stripboard with headers I've not done anything with it
[17:28] <Andrew_M6GTG> it has a SPI interface, talks about transmitting data sent via SPI (assume using some format compatible with companion receiver) but also has a FSK - In pin, but doesn't really explain what that does
[17:30] <eroomde> world = turned upside-down
[17:30] <eroomde> http://coolprop.sourceforge.net/
[17:30] <eroomde> this is incredible
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[17:31] <eroomde> have devoted weeks to trying to collate all the non-ideal behaviour for each gas
[17:31] <eroomde> and it's all in here
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[17:36] <mfa298> Andrew_M6GTG: re-reading the datasheet I'm not sure you can get the fsk timing low enough for our uses with the commands.
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[17:36] <mfa298> I think you use the spi interface to configure it: frequency, data rate, max bandwidth (presumably shift)
[17:37] <mfa298> and then I assume you send it data via the FSKin pin which is buffers before sending out.
[17:38] <Andrew_M6GTG> thats the bit I wasn't sure about, since it talks about sending data in the SPI buffer via the SPI transmit command
[17:39] <Andrew_M6GTG> I just took a punt for the sake of £4
[17:39] <mfa298> same here
[17:39] <mattbrejza> you can always connect a few passives to the crystal and create fsk that way
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[17:42] <mfa298> it looks like you can also adjust the crytal load capacitor via spi - although that might not give enough control for slower fsk
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[17:45] <Andrew_M6GTG> anyway time to go home, thanks for the help and ideas
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[18:09] <ibanezmatt13> adamgreig, standard deviation is the square root of the variance of a set of data. What is the difference practically apart from the fact one is the square of the other?
[18:10] <eroomde> i am not adamgreig
[18:10] <eroomde> but
[18:10] <eroomde> take a cluster of points
[18:10] <eroomde> say landing spots
[18:10] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[18:10] <eroomde> draw the 1std ellipse
[18:10] <eroomde> draw the varience ellipse
[18:10] <eroomde> don't actually
[18:10] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[18:11] <eroomde> 1std is basically the width of the data spread, to 66% or whatever. it's a useful actual number
[18:11] <eroomde> in your head
[18:11] <eroomde> variance is very useful mathematically
[18:11] <ibanezmatt13> right
[18:11] <ibanezmatt13> variance seems to have a lot of point to it, but standard deviation just seems pointless. Right so the width
[18:12] <ibanezmatt13> interesting
[18:12] <eroomde> if you want a good introduction to all this,
[18:12] <eroomde> http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkbayes/
[18:12] <eroomde> actually quite short
[18:12] <eroomde> free pdf
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok, thanks
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[18:20] <JuniorStratosphe> Hi guys
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[18:21] <JuniorStratosphe> Anyone here to answer some questions?
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[18:21] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: on Estes website, they do really good thrust/time curves for the engines. So what I have to do basically is just look at what the thurst is on the curve at 0.1s, store it, then what it is at 0.2s, etc yes?
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[18:22] <eroomde> yes
[18:22] <eroomde> assuming you're wedded to 0.1s time stamps
[18:22] <eroomde> time steps, even
[18:22] <eroomde> i would be inclined to make the time step changeable
[18:22] <ibanezmatt13> good idea
[18:23] <ibanezmatt13> but that might cause issues with the motor thurst arrays
[18:24] Huseyin (~huseyiner@host-92-25-77-188.as13285.net) joined #highaltitude.
[18:24] <Huseyin> Hi
[18:24] <eroomde> yes, you'd have to change the way you generated it
[18:24] <DL1SGP> welcome back JuniorStratosp[here
[18:24] <eroomde> so store the motor thrust array at 0.1s say
[18:24] <DL1SGP> if you have questions just ask
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[18:25] <eroomde> but have it get resampled depending on the time step
[18:25] <ibanezmatt13> right
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[18:25] <Huseyin> I was wondering what is the best way to get live images from a raspberry Pi just as Dave Ackerman did?
[18:25] <ibanezmatt13> SSDV
[18:26] <Huseyin> Do you have any information to how we can implement this to our Raspberry Pi?
[18:26] <chrisstubbs> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ssdv is how the protocol works, basically take a photo with your picam, encode it to SSDV on the pi, send to radio transmitter via serial
[18:26] <ibanezmatt13> right there ^ :)
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[18:27] <ibanezmatt13> https://github.com/fsphil/ssdv
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[18:27] <chrisstubbs> check out the github link on that page, install that to your pi and have a go encoding some images
[18:27] <Huseyin> Ohh I see haha. So how do we send it to our computers etc. As in what kind of transmitter system do we need to setup.
[18:28] <ibanezmatt13> NTX2 is a good start, using a voltage divider. http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[18:28] <chrisstubbs> NTX2 (or NTX2B) radio transmitter
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[18:28] <chrisstubbs> there we go
[18:28] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[18:28] <chrisstubbs> also some stuff on pi hardware: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:raspberrypi
[18:28] <chrisstubbs> my advice: read the wiki inside out and abosrb all the HAB information you can
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[18:28] <ibanezmatt13> ^ as stated in the channel subject at the top
[18:29] <Huseyin> Wow you guys are amazing. Im going to check out all the information
[18:29] <chrisstubbs> And of couse come here with any questions you get stuck on
[18:29] <ibanezmatt13> Of course
[18:29] <Huseyin> Thank you guys. I understand why Dave said that there were some really friendly people here.
[18:30] <chrisstubbs> Are tou from the UK Huseyin?
[18:30] <chrisstubbs> *you
[18:30] <Huseyin> Yes I am.
[18:30] <Huseyin> I am a student at Camborne Science & International Academy
[18:30] <ibanezmatt13> awesome
[18:30] <eroomde> excellent
[18:30] <eroomde> more students
[18:30] <eroomde> welcome Huseyin
[18:31] <Huseyin> Hi. Are students something you guys want?
[18:31] <ibanezmatt13> this is a very good thing for students to get into
[18:32] <Huseyin> Me and my team have an almost unlimited finance support so we can try many things
[18:33] <ibanezmatt13> even more awesome, with we had that :P
[18:33] <ibanezmatt13> wish*
[18:33] <DL1SGP> they should order a truck of helium :)
[18:33] <eroomde> the more students the better
[18:33] <Huseyin> I will most probably change my nickname soon. I will let you guys know when I do. We will have a blog running soon showing every step of our journey.
[18:33] <eroomde> unlimited is relative!
[18:33] <eroomde> when i was a university student, £30k to work on my project was crazy money
[18:34] <Huseyin> Our science department has more than we can ever imagine.
[18:34] Action: chrisstubbs wonders how long it is until someone launches a crazy ammount of cash, with a "rat race" style chase
[18:34] <Huseyin> That would be amazing.
[18:34] <eroomde> 3 years later my current project has a budget of 10000x that and I'm worried it's not enough :)
[18:34] <DL1SGP> Huseyin: sounds fine. and whenever you run into tiny issues after having assimilated the knowledge from wiki do not fear to ask, in general we do not bite
[18:34] <eroomde> in general
[18:35] <Huseyin> We wanted to develop our project further once we have the basics running. "In General"
[18:35] <DL1SGP> that is the way to go... small steps
[18:35] <Huseyin> Im already liking this HAB community. The perfect hobby.
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[18:36] <DL1SGP> eroomde: there are sometimes withdrawal symptoms that can bring up unwanted behaviour
[18:36] <eroomde> i think my biting comes from over-exposure
[18:36] <eroomde> rather than withdrawal
[18:36] <Huseyin> Lets not bite anyone :D
[18:37] Nick change: Huseyin -> CSIA
[18:37] <DL1SGP> heh no worries, just kidding.. damn this makes me hungry
[18:37] <DL1SGP> :D
[18:37] Nick change: CSIA -> Huseyin
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[18:38] <Huseyin> So it seems "Huseyin" is registered. That docent come as a surprise. How do I register a new nickname?
[18:38] WillTablet (~Willdude1@unaffiliated/willdude123) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[18:38] <DL1SGP> .. /msg nickserv register help
[18:38] <DL1SGP> erm
[18:38] Nick change: Huseyin -> CSIA
[18:39] <DL1SGP> .. /msg nickserv help register
[18:39] <DL1SGP> that way around I guess
[18:39] <eroomde> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[18:39] <CSIA> CSIA because thats the nickname of our school
[18:39] <DL1SGP> you will get a direct message popping up in another tab giving you detailed instructions how to use the nickserv service on this irc
[18:39] <CSIA> I see.
[18:39] <CSIA> Thank you
[18:40] <CSIA> I am now registered :)
[18:40] <DL1SGP> wonderful
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[18:41] <CSIA> On my client I have my username as 'huseyinergisi" is their a password?
[18:41] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ -> Steve_G0TDJ_AFK
[18:43] <CSIA> There are 154 member. Is that online now?
[18:43] <mfa298> that will mean there are 154 people in this channel,
[18:44] <mfa298> they might just be idling (leaving their client on but not in front of the pc)
[18:44] <CSIA> I understand
[18:44] <mfa298> a lot of people on IRC stay connected 24/7 and look to see whats happening when they get the chance
[18:45] <CSIA> That makes sense.
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[18:50] <mfa298> CSIA: registering etc. on IRC isn't required. It's a fairly old protocol so in general you can just connect and use it. Registering on some IRC networks (like this one) allows you to keep your nickname - but a lot of people just connect and don't worry about registering.
[18:51] <CSIA> I was wondering do we need an Arduino to send live images to the ground. The Wiki said that it will work with any 5v or 3.3v micro controllers, so I'm guessing we don't?
[18:51] <mfa298> for ssdv it's easier (and probably cheaper with a Pi)
[18:52] <mfa298> arduino is good for a basic tracker (sending position data) as it requires less power and is much lighter (so less gas needed)
[18:52] <mfa298> there's also fewer issues with heat
[18:52] <CSIA> So to receive SSDV what will I need on the ground?
[18:54] <mfa298> A suitable radio receiver, PC and suitable software (dl-fldigi)
[18:54] <CSIA> And by suitable radio receiver. What examples do you have that I as a student might have access to?
[18:55] <mfa298> ssdv is usually sent back using rtty using a license free radio module (the NTX2/NTX2B) which operates on 434MHz
[18:55] <mfa298> so you need a reciever that can recieve that frequency range using SSB
[18:55] <CSIA> Ok let me Google the details here
[18:55] <mfa298> There's a lot of detail about receiving telemetry and ssdv data on http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[18:56] <mfa298> which also includes some possible radios.
[18:56] <mfa298> The cheapest option will probably be the rtl-sdr (around £8 from china) and a habamp http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=72_73
[18:58] <mfa298> a slightly better option is the funcube dongle (designed as a way for schools to pickup the funcube satellite that's being launched soon). That dongle costs around £150.
[18:58] <mfa298> or you get a real radio - which most of the better ones are amateur radio transcievers - so with a suitale license you can also use it to talk to other amateurs.
[18:59] <mfa298> But for a decent 2nd hand one you're probably paying £300-£1k
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[18:59] <CSIA> We need a cheap option. Even with our unlimited supply of finance we are still trying to make the cheapest build.
[18:59] <CSIA> RTL-SDR is essentially a TV Singal Reciever
[19:00] <CSIA> Right?
[19:00] <mfa298> yes
[19:00] <CSIA> And the habamp goes on board with the Raspberry Pi
[19:00] <mfa298> it's a TV dongle with a particular chipset that someone discovered you can use as a radio reciever
[19:01] <CSIA> The habamp?
[19:01] <mfa298> the habamp is a filter and pre-amp you have at the receiving end.
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[19:01] <CSIA> Hmm I see and to send the SSDV we have antennas on baord
[19:01] <mfa298> Ideally on the ground you'de have Antenna (up high outside somewhere), habamp, cable run, radio reciever, computer
[19:02] <mfa298> on the balloon end you have the Pi, something like the NTX2 (which is a transmitter) and a small antenna (design on the wiki)
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[19:02] <mfa298> payload antenna: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payloadantenna
[19:03] <CSIA> This is super interesting but seems so hard :D
[19:03] <mfa298> you might find getting something that can receive balloons a good starting point as you can then try and receive data from other flights.
[19:05] <CSIA> That seems like a better idea. I think I should start from the basics of actually getting a ballon up.
[19:05] <mfa298> are you a student or one of the teachers ?
[19:05] <CSIA> Student
[19:05] <mfa298> it might be worth talking to some of the teachers to see if any have radio knowledge
[19:05] <CSIA> I will give that a go
[19:06] <CSIA> I mean our school specialises in Science so I'm sure they must have someone
[19:06] <mfa298> or if they dont you might find there's a parent that's interested in radio (and in particular amateur radio)
[19:06] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[19:07] <mfa298> finding someone like that should be able to help a lot with getting a receiving station setup.
[19:07] <mfa298> balloon payload isn't that hard (bit of simple electronics and some programming)
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[19:07] <mfa298> but without something that can recieve it you don't know how well it's working.
[19:07] <CSIA> I heard that we can actually use other receiving radio stations form around the country. We will be launching from The Churchill University in Oxford
[19:08] <eroomde> say what?
[19:08] <eroomde> do you mean Churchill College in Cambridge?
[19:08] <mfa298> I think that might be Churchhill college at Cambridge University
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[19:08] <CSIA> It must be tha
[19:08] <CSIA> that*
[19:08] <eroomde> yes
[19:08] <eroomde> have you asked them?
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[19:08] <mfa298> during a flight you'll normally get a lot of other people tracking the flight (if you've announced it)
[19:08] <CSIA> Im not sure on the details
[19:09] <CSIA> Our school is taking care of that
[19:09] <mfa298> but you'll want something locally so you know what you've put together works before you launch it.
[19:09] <eroomde> has your school asked them?
[19:09] <CSIA> Yes they have
[19:09] <mfa298> trying to debug code after releasing the balloon is very difficult!
[19:09] <eroomde> ok
[19:10] <CSIA> We are aloud to launch from the Churchill College
[19:10] <CSIA> I was not sure on the name
[19:10] <CSIA> That part our school has taken care of
[19:10] <arko> Morning
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[19:11] <mfa298> evening arko
[19:11] <CSIA> Thank you for help guys. I will need to leave and I will hopefully be back soon.
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[19:12] <cm13g09> evening mfa298
[19:13] <mfa298> eveing cm13g09
[19:13] Lunar_Lander (~kevin@p548890FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander> India got a Mars Probe now
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander> still earth-bound though
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[19:17] <daveake> WillTablet could you fix your interwebz please?
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> evening dave
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> friend of mine liked your new Raspberry Pi ground systems
[19:20] <Willdude> daveake, sorry I have TalkTalk :)
[19:20] <daveake> self inflicted then :p
[19:20] <Willdude> I think on some clients you can just ignore joins and quits
[19:21] <daveake> I'm sure
[19:21] <Willdude> But that's a hassle
[19:21] <daveake> however best fixed at 1 source rather than 150 clients
[19:21] <fsphil> easier just to ignore the nick :)
[19:21] <daveake> btdt
[19:21] <Willdude> True, none of what I say is any good.
[19:22] <daveake> sigh. The problem was the low S/N ratio
[19:22] <fsphil> I was kidding :p
[19:22] <Willdude> Sorry daveake I've ranted at my dad as much I can, I could set up Irssi on my VPS.
[19:22] <mfa298> other simple solution, use a decent IRC client that's not on your home internet connection
[19:22] <eroomde> that's a good idea
[19:23] <Willdude> mfa298, what do you mean? Like a VPS?
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[19:25] <mfa298> exactly like irssi on a vps
[19:26] <mfa298> that's pretty much what I do, except the vps is on hardware I own and on the end of my ADSL connection
[19:27] <craag> I use irssi on my vps, never looked back.
[19:27] <fsphil> weechat here
[19:27] <fsphil> though I miss being able to click on long urls
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[19:28] <fsphil> and my spellchecker
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[19:29] Nick change: MichaelC1 -> MichaelC
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[19:32] <Willdude123> Sorry guys
[19:32] <Willdude123> Ima go make a huge rainbow flag on a minecraft server just cos
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[19:35] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2487485/Utah-truckdriver-builds-worlds-largest-amateur-telescope.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
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[19:46] <wd8mnv> BBc is being mean to me : (
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[19:50] Nick change: [1]chrisstubbs -> chrisstubbs
[19:50] <chrisstubbs> I need to mess around with my connection for a bit, seems to be running at 1/10 speed. brb
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[19:55] <x-f> that quit message
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[20:00] <chrisstubbs> new LAN driver did the trick
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[20:17] <ve6ts> does anyone know how high a party balloon will go before it will burst? in this case i have filled up a 3 foot latex balloon with pure hydrogen gas to a diameter of about 2 ft, from a flight test i got 5000 ft above ground before burst
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[20:19] <Upu> very weight / fill dependent
[20:19] <Upu> 25g on it ~ 50km
[20:19] <Upu> 12g on it ~9km
[20:20] <Upu> and by 50km I mean 5km
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[20:20] <SP9UOB-Tom> lol
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[20:20] <ve6ts> Upu ya, sorry ment to ask altitude
[20:20] <ve6ts> oh hehe :) thanks
[20:20] <ve6ts> 50 km in altitude with a party balloon, rock on! :)
[20:22] <ve6ts> i had the balloon approx 60% full with a 16 gram payload, from my temperature data (calibrated manually) and based on 1.9 degrees C / 1000 ft, i estimated the 5000ft
[20:23] <ve6ts> based on that information my rate of asscent was around 166ft/minute, sounds about right for me
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[20:24] <SP9UOB-Tom> ve6ts: use mpl3115 as altimetr and find it out :-)
[20:25] <SP9UOB-Tom> in my flights it has about 200m difference (allmost constant) to GPS
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[20:33] <mclane> some raspi specialist available? - I have a question about UART / NTX2b transmission
[20:33] <mfa298> mclane: ask away and hopefully one of us can answer
[20:33] <mclane> I can only receive reliably when setting the UART to 150 baud
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[20:34] <mclane> any other baudrate gives more or less distorted transmissions
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> hey mclane :)
[20:35] <mclane> I am using the ttyAMA0 interface with the termios library
[20:35] <mfa298> I think some people have had issues with slower speeds
[20:36] <mfa298> as a silly question have you turned off the other things trying to use the tty (linux kernel and getty)
[20:36] <mclane> that's what I expected from reading the wiki
[20:36] <mclane> yes, everything turned off
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[20:36] <mfa298> faster should be ok - I think several people have used 300bd and possibly even 600baud
[20:37] <mclane> 300 and 600 bd don't work well
[20:38] <mfa298> 2nd silly question, have you increased the reciever filter bandwidth (slider at the bottom of the rtty settings) ?
[20:38] <mclane> yes
[20:39] <mclane> ("auto" checkbox ticked)
[20:39] <mfa298> not sure what else to suggest.
[20:39] <mfa298> if you've got access to a logic analyser or scope you might want to hook it up and check the timing.
[20:40] <mfa298> otherwise you could try recording a bit at a higher rate and get someone else to see if they can decode it
[20:40] <mfa298> if you havn't done it might help to send 2 stop bits (although I think the dl-fldigi decode routine only uses 1 whatever the setting)
[20:42] <DL1SGP1> mclane feel free to send me any audio recording and I gonna have a listen/look at it
[20:42] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
[20:42] <mclane> changing stop bits have no influence
[20:43] <mfa298> with the reference to termios I'm guessing you're using C, so far I've only used termios in C to receive data from the gps.
[20:43] <mclane> I will check timing with the scope first
[20:43] <mclane> yes, C is used
[20:43] <mclane> gps is connected via i2c
[20:43] <mfa298> from C it is possible to bit bang rtty although it get's a bit more interesting (with 300 baud I had to set a higher priority for the rtty thread)
[20:43] <mclane> (that was a hassle, too)
[20:44] <mclane> mfa298: how do you do that?
[20:44] <mfa298> I've gone the other way, gps on the uart and bit-bang rtty. I'm now trying to see if I can do domino.
[20:45] <mclane> i2c is also bit-banged
[20:45] <mfa298> there's some text about it at http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:raspberrypi_advanced and my code is on github https://github.com/m1ari/Sandals
[20:46] <mclane> since the RasPi cannot cope with clock stretching
[20:46] <mclane> ah - will have a look to your code
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[20:46] <mfa298> it's not flight tested (or even freezer tested) so it might not work with temperature changes (although I don't see a reason for it to not work)
[20:47] <mfa298> it's written as C++ with classes but you should be able to work out what's happening.
[20:47] <mfa298> I had it working with an NTX2 and NTX2b the other day on different gpio's sending at 300bd on both at the same time :D
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[20:49] <mclane> I am also interested in your DominoEX results
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[20:51] <mfa298> I think it should be possible via PWM, I struggled to get good enough timing to bitbang dominoEX
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[21:02] <CSIA> Hi guys. What month do you think its best for launching?
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[21:05] <jcoxon> CSIA, where are you based?
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[21:05] <CSIA> Cornwall but we will be launching from the Churchill College
[21:05] <jcoxon> well it depends, summer is better for weather
[21:06] <jcoxon> that said the Jetstream is a bit variable
[21:06] <CSIA> Hmm
[21:06] <jcoxon> as in it varies all year round
[21:06] <jcoxon> launches take place all year really
[21:07] <craag> Winter not so good due to cold fingers when tying string at the launch site of course :P
[21:07] <jcoxon> well there is that
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[21:08] <craag> But whenever you're ready to launch and the predictions are right, go for it!
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[21:12] <CSIA> Yeah I'm sure we will find a day haha
[21:13] <mfa298> CSIA: there's a predictor at http://predict.habhub.org/ which you can plug some details into and get a prediction.
[21:13] <mfa298> if you try that over a few days / weeks / months you should see how things vary
[21:14] <CSIA> Yeah I hit that earlier. It does 180 hours in the future. We will be launching in 2014 so that won't be a worry until then
[21:15] <CSIA> Haha I just checked out my school website and I saw that I was on the front page
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[21:20] <CSIA> Alfie
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[21:28] <CSIAphysician> Any recommendations for the control of temperature within the unit... Preventing condensation etc
[21:28] <CSIA> Thats a problem for us.
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[21:29] Nick change: crash_18974_ -> crash_18974
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[21:29] <mfa298> With a pi you might find your biggest issue is overheating
[21:30] <CSIA> How can we overcome this issues? I was thinking of using the Model A with heatsinks.
[21:31] <craag> swap out the reg for a switch-mode as well
[21:31] <mfa298> Model A makes a big difference.
[21:31] <CSIA> "reg for a switch mode" are we talking about desoldering that black chip
[21:31] <CSIA> Model A is better because of power usage and heat
[21:31] <CSIA> Not the chip sorry. the regulator
[21:31] <mfa298> there's a good set of recommendations on http://www.daveakerman.com/?page_id=1294
[21:32] <craag> Yeah it's explained on that link ^^
[21:32] <CSIA> Thats what I meant
[21:32] <CSIAphysician> I anyone have any idea of the average stratospheric temperature outside?
[21:32] <CSIA> Hopefully we can overcome the heat issues. We will test it
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[21:33] <mfa298> a linear regulator works by converting the unused voltage to heat (so can generate a few watts of heat on a pi)
[21:33] <CSIA> Wait... so we need to generate heat?
[21:33] <mfa298> switchmode psu's do clever stuff so you dont get as much heat
[21:33] <CSIA> ohh i see
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[21:34] <mfa298> changing the linear reg to a switchmode one means you're generating less heat (which also means you're batteries last longer)
[21:34] <CSIA> Exactly. We will only be using 3.3v right?
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[21:35] <mfa298> it can get down to -50C as you go up through the atmosphere (although some insulation the payload shouldn't get that cold)
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[21:35] <mfa298> unless you've got something that needs 5v (usb dongles) you shouldn't need the 5v line
[21:36] <mfa298> the easiest options is likely to have two pi's one for the flight that's had the mods, and one for development that can still run usb devices etc (or possibly even a model-b so you can have ethernet on it)
[21:37] <CSIA> Yeah I have a development model B with me and we will soon get hold of a Model A for flight
[21:37] <craag> Yep I've been developing on a model B :)
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[21:37] <craag> Will then just put the sdcard in a model for flight
[21:37] <CSIA> Can the Raspberry Pi facilitate 2 cameras
[21:37] <craag> *Model A
[21:38] <craag> not 2x pi cams
[21:38] <CSIA> Yeah exactly
[21:38] <CSIAphysician> Going to be constructing the launch unit using a high density lightweight foam encased in a carbon fiber shell... I assume this will insulate the payload sufficiently?
[21:38] <mfa298> I've been developing on a B as well andjust bought an A as a flight Pi
[21:38] <Steve_G0TDJ_NKRS> Good Evening Folks
[21:38] <craag> you could do a webcam as well, but it gets messy (need 5V, more power consumption, etc)
[21:38] <craag> Evening Steve_G0TDJ_NKRS
[21:38] <eroomde> CSIAphysician: yes, that'll be strong enough
[21:38] <Steve_G0TDJ_NKRS> Hey Phil
[21:38] <eroomde> quite a lot stronger than you probably need
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[21:40] <mfa298> one thing to consider is would you be happy for it to land on your car/head as it descents on a parachute (hopefully at around 5m/s)
[21:40] <CSIA> Thank you for help guys. I have it all noted down for tomorrows development.
[21:40] <CSIA> Yeah it would be seriously heavy
[21:40] <craag> how heavy?
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[21:41] <CSIA> Were not sure yet. But I can imagine if we build from carbon fiber it will be too heavy
[21:41] <eroomde> do you have a rough idea?
[21:42] <eroomde> and is there a particular reason to use carbon fibre?
[21:42] <CSIA> We have a rough design etc. We are worried about damage to the payload
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[21:43] <eroomde> i'd be more worried about damage to what you land on
[21:43] <craag> Remember you need to worry a lot more about damage to anything it could land on.
[21:43] <eroomde> payload damage is not really an issue
[21:43] <eroomde> it's just going into the air
[21:43] <CSIA> Hmm thats a point to consider
[21:44] <CSIA> Now you guys brought it up we could cause like a whole motorway to crash
[21:44] <CSIAphysician> We are facing a very likely possibility of a water landing, so we are constructing something that will be able to withstand floating for quite a few hours
[21:45] <eroomde> polystyrene
[21:45] <eroomde> that'll do the job
[21:45] <DL1SGP> the issue will be the damage it might cause when it is coming down, as long as your design can get damaged badly on descent and is realtively well constructed, you should think of the fact that it might do same to other stuff :)
[21:45] <CSIAphysician> Need to test the breakdown and water absorption of polystyrene
[21:46] <eroomde> it'll be fine for a few hours
[21:46] <CSIA> I need to leave now. I will leave it to CSIAphysician.
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[21:46] <craag> polystyrene, like used in ice buckets? (holding water+ice for several hours)
[21:46] <eroomde> if you wish to protect the payload electronics, it'll be more about sealing the payload at its joints
[21:47] <mclane> when transmitting ssdv packets interleaved with position data, do you switch baud rate (e.g. between 50 and 600 baud)?
[21:48] <CSIAphysician> Of course, we will be incorporating a self inflating flotation and location balloon that contains a strobe, so we can locate the craft in the water
[21:48] <chrisstubbs> mclane, nope you are better off keeping it steady
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> https://connect.arc.nasa.gov/kepler?launcher=false Planetery formation
[21:49] <eroomde> it might be easier to just not launch on a day when it's likely to land in the sea
[21:49] <chrisstubbs> or people will have to switch fldigi settings every switch
[21:49] <DL1SGP> indeed
[21:49] <mfa298> you might be better off choosing a launch time when the chance of a dry landing is high.
[21:49] <eroomde> CSIAphysician: have you come across the predictor?
[21:49] <mclane> can I rely on 600 baud telemetry?
[21:50] <chrisstubbs> it is a bit on the fast side
[21:50] <mfa298> I'm not sure of the chances of retreiving a payload from a wet landing quickly
[21:50] <chrisstubbs> SSDV has the benifit of FEC
[21:50] <chrisstubbs> so the4 600b is slightly less of a problem
[21:51] <mclane> yea, but I do not have position data within the ssdv packets?
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[21:52] <chrisstubbs> I dont think so
[21:52] Action: chrisstubbs checks
[21:52] <chrisstubbs> no
[21:52] <mclane> so no fec for the position data
[21:52] <chrisstubbs> that would have been a handy optional feature
[21:53] <DL1SGP> if you had the computing power you could overlay the pos data at each corner of the image as text
[21:53] <chrisstubbs> not unless you implemented your own FEC on the rtty, but then habitat/fldigi would have to support it
[21:53] <craag> DL1SGP: You have to SW encode the JPEG to do that unfortunately
[21:53] <chrisstubbs> I would be tempted to just say transmit the position data a few times
[21:53] <mclane> yea, therefore I thought running 2 instances of dl-fldigi and switching baud rate
[21:54] <DL1SGP> ah tru drats craag
[21:54] <DL1SGP> *true even
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[21:55] <craag> DL1SGP: Yeah, nice to be able to HW encode it with the pi cam :)
[21:55] <DL1SGP> indeed!
[21:55] <craag> Also would be nice to do it on 3G streamed video, but again the H.264 encoding is HW.
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> hey DL1SGP and craag and chrisstubbs
[21:55] <chrisstubbs> Hi Lunar_Lander
[21:55] <craag> Good evening Lunar_Lander
[21:56] <DL1SGP> Guten Abend Lunar_Lander
[21:56] <mfa298> for a video stream it might be possible to add it as a subtitle track
[21:56] <craag> hmm good point
[21:57] <craag> So ffmpeg could mux it into an mpeg-ts?
[21:57] <mfa298> although the video streaming client would need to know what to do with it.
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[21:57] <mfa298> that's what I was thinking.
[21:57] <craag> Yeah... would need a custom streaming solution
[21:57] <mfa298> I don't know how plausible it really is, but shouldn't need too much cpu for that
[21:58] <craag> or streaming straight to vlc
[21:58] <craag> (im assuming vlc would support it)
[21:58] <mfa298> I think vlc can support it.
[21:59] <mclane> good night folks I have to leave
[21:59] <mfa298> if not mpeg-ts I think you can do it with mkv
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[22:45] <chrisstubbs> Its worryingly quiet
[22:46] <mfa298> that it is
[22:46] <chrisstubbs> I've been making a new filler tube
[22:46] <chrisstubbs> as the old one was about 300g of solid hot glue
[22:46] <chrisstubbs> with a bit of PVC pipe and some garden hose peeking out of each end
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[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> chat quizzes are fun :P
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> "With whom did Mick Jagger compose most of the Rolling Stones hits?"
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> my answer: Atomic Kitten
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> chrisstubbs, that is why I am not active at the moment :P
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[22:59] <chrisstubbs> aha oh dear
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[00:00] --- Wed Nov 6 2013