highaltitude.log.20131101

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[06:01] <DL7AD___> morning
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[06:54] <jphoglund> morning
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[07:47] <ibanezmatt13> morning
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[07:59] <DL1SGP> good morning
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[08:08] <fsphil> mooning
[08:09] <ibanezmatt13> evening
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[08:30] <DL7AD_> evening
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[09:31] Action: Andrew_M6GTG taps the screen is this thing working?
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[09:59] <ibanezmatt13_> UpuWork: NTX2 replaced with NTX2B
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[10:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> Very quiet today ?
[10:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> Larkhill Sonde is up
[10:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> 404.4MHz
[10:59] <Andrew_M6GTG> It is quiet, thought it was just me ;-)
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[11:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> Normally come in and see everybody has been chatting for ages! Late this morning as my server back up failed last night :-(
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[11:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> Perhaps they also all fell over ;-)
[11:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> Morning GMT
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[11:05] <GMT> Morning Geoff ... much happening?
[11:06] <Geoff-G8DHE> Nope not a thing on IRC just Andrew_M6GTG and me wondering where everyone is! LArkhill Sonde up I notice
[11:07] <GMT> yes, just picked that up, and started decoding
[11:08] <GMT> based on CUSF prediction, Larkhill ones today will just about reach the eastern edge of London
[11:08] <Geoff-G8DHE> Spotted it this morining from 3Km, so I may try to schedule it even earlier to get the launch as early as possible!
[11:09] <GMT> sig is a bit 'iffy' here (technical term), still waiting for an alt figure
[11:09] <GMT> oh, here we go, 10000m
[11:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> No Alt data here but a good signal at -100dBm
[11:10] <GMT> okay, as a sanity check, I have it just passing over Tadley, north of Basingstoke
[11:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> I meant Aux data not Alt
[11:11] <GMT> no Aux data from larkhill, only Reading sondes
[11:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> Do we know what the Aux data is ?
[11:11] <Steve_G0TDJ> 'Morning Guys
[11:11] <GMT> no idea, never heard anyone give a convincing theory!
[11:11] <fsphil> castorbay's sonde hourly: http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/castorbay/
[11:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> The world is waking up
[11:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> morining Steve
[11:11] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi Geoff-G8DHE
[11:12] <fsphil> man the winds are horrible at the moment
[11:12] <Steve_G0TDJ> GMT: YOu wanted to know how I soldered SMDs?
[11:12] <fsphil> you know it's bad when the met sonde is landing 300km away
[11:12] <daveake> eek
[11:12] <GMT> Steve_G0TDJ: yes
[11:13] <Steve_G0TDJ> Although I didn't do a fantastic job, have a look at: http://flyha.be/1aO2p6s
[11:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> Your as Sane as me in that case
[11:13] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi Dave, Phil et al.
[11:13] <GMT> fsphil: on Monday (the storms!) a larkhill sonde landed in the sea off Lowestoft!
[11:13] <fsphil> hah
[11:14] <fsphil> the winds next week are really bad
[11:14] <fsphil> going to launch a 100g, see how far it goes
[11:15] Nick change: skoushik|2 -> skoushik
[11:15] <Steve_G0TDJ> When are you launching fsphil ?
[11:16] <fsphil> not sure yet. sometime next week
[11:16] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK Cool. Should be able to track
[11:16] <fsphil> I was hoping to do it halloween but the bits didn't arrive in time
[11:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> Steve_G0TDJ, Interesting technique for the SMD, which solder paste do you use ?
[11:16] <Steve_G0TDJ> Shame... Maybe next year
[11:16] <GMT> any theories as to which direction it will go?
[11:17] <Steve_G0TDJ> Geoff-G8DHE: Cheap stuff from eBay :-)
[11:17] <fsphil> the winds next week will make it more interseting :)
[11:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> I wa going to say it seems to have a different texture to the stuff I use, mine is a lot smoother and seems wetter.
[11:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> I have found that old stuff out of date is a pain to use.
[11:18] <Steve_G0TDJ> Geoff-G8DHE: This stuff: http://flyha.be/1bILJLZ
[11:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> A lOT cheaper than the stuff I use from Farnell ;-)
[11:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, I bet
[11:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> I was going to invest in some dear stuff when I got a couple of quid in the hope it was easier to use
[11:19] <GMT> wow, that snd soldering is far beyond anything I could do!
[11:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> Really Graham?
[11:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> :-( I end up with most of it drying out, but seems a lot easier to use as most of it sucks to the track when heated so very few if any shorts.
[11:20] <Steve_G0TDJ> What would be the difficulty for you?
[11:20] <GMT> I'm sure. I've got a 15w iron with a small tip, but not sure if I have the eyesight for such fine detail
[11:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> I mustadmit the last few years has seen my eyesight detoriate for this work as well :-(
[11:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> I have to use a jewellers glass. And ti has to be a hot air station
[11:21] <Andrew_M6GTG> IR rework rigs for a little over £100 on ebay ;-)
[11:21] <ed__> i'm not looking forward to this getting-old business
[11:21] <ed__> i likemy eyes
[11:21] <GMT> and I don't have a hot air station!
[11:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> That would be ideal Andy. Maybe when I have a bit of space
[11:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> £40 on eBay GMT
[11:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> I have a large sicular light/magnifier on an arm 8" dia which is essential
[11:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> even circular
[11:22] <ed__> Steve_G0TDJ, that's a very crafty (pun sort of intended) soldering technique
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[11:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> :-) I've luckily always had a crafty side LOL
[11:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> OH Larkhill took a rightangle whilst we have been typing
[11:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> Anyway GMT That's how I manage it :-)
[11:24] <Steve_G0TDJ> I need a cuppa - brb
[11:25] <GMT> Geoff-G8DHE: larkhill travelling straight as an arrow!, now just S of M3/M25 junction at 14000m
[11:27] <GMT> can't see me ever launching a balloon if that kind of soldering is required; I'd meed a large board with bigger components
[11:27] <GMT> (or get somebody else to make it for me!)
[11:27] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WeatherSondes/Capture.JPG is what mine has plotted
[11:27] <Geoff-G8DHE> gong up past Abingdon on mine ?
[11:28] <GMT> wow, dunno what happened there! wrong Almanac maybe? I show it just inside M25
[11:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> I'll update mine, but not impossible as I take it from my GPS which might see differing Sats to the Sonde of course
[11:30] <GMT> from launch to Basingstoke seems okay, they can't make a turn like that.
[11:30] <GMT> also, try zooming-in
[11:31] <ed__> GMT, you can do them just fine with veroboard and DIP componentns
[11:31] <ed__> many tens of reliable flight computers do it that way
[11:31] <GMT> it's just burst
[11:32] <GMT> I can cope with veroboard and DIP
[11:32] <GMT> doing it with smd for lightness I can understand, but I'm never gonna beat Leo
[11:33] <ed__> indeed
[11:33] <Laurenceb> hmm
[11:33] <ed__> and you don't really need lightness for non-pico
[11:33] <Laurenceb> APRS network is quite extensive
[11:34] <Laurenceb> this APRS stuff looks like the way to go for long duration pico
[11:34] <GMT> well, easier for me to go pico, not looking for full-on science, just a simple tracker
[11:35] <Darkside> Laurenceb: and with leos stuff, its frequency agile
[11:35] <Darkside> so is can switch to teh appropriate frequency for the region
[11:36] <Darkside> there are large gaps in the APRS network though
[11:36] <Darkside> like, most of australia
[11:36] <Laurenceb> yeah
[11:36] <GMT> and Russia
[11:36] <Darkside> yeah
[11:36] <ed__> maybe that woodpecker thing in russia coul be repourposed
[11:36] <Darkside> pff
[11:36] <ed__> i'm assuming that has a modicum of gain
[11:36] <Darkside> its pointing the wrong way
[11:36] <Darkside> and its for HF
[11:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah yes Ephemeris was out new one has brought it back on a more sensible track!
[11:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> over Croydon at present descending
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[11:37] <GMT> okay Geoff, it burst at a little over 15k, now over central London (ish)
[11:38] <Laurenceb> http://www.dpl-surveillance-equipment.com/articles/article_60.html
[11:38] <Darkside> anyway, it'd have to be HF for a truly worldwid floater. not with 10mw though
[11:38] <Laurenceb> you mean this?
[11:38] <Darkside> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duga-3
[11:39] <Darkside> slightly more objective source
[11:39] <Laurenceb> hehe
[11:39] <Darkside> its a big HF array, very earl OTHR stuff
[11:39] <Darkside> early*
[11:39] <GMT> the attempt to use IMD on HF was good, but I never heard anything; needs to be another freq
[11:40] <Darkside> i think HF APRS could work, but not at a pico level
[11:40] <Darkside> you need more power
[11:40] <Darkside> but on APRS you have other options for tracking anyway
[11:40] <Darkside> just.. not within the pico size limits
[11:40] <GMT> how often do you need to update APRS, can it be every 30 mins?
[11:41] <Darkside> for sure, and on HF APRS you wouldnt want to do it too often
[11:41] <Darkside> thinking of charging something off solar, then discharging to transmit?
[11:41] <Maxell> every 5 minutes for fun
[11:41] <GMT> and at night?
[11:41] <Darkside> yeah at night it wouldnt work :P
[11:42] <Darkside> th eproblem with HF APRS is you dont gain anything with altitude
[11:42] <Darkside> you still have the same problems at the receive site as you do with all HF payloads - noise
[11:42] <Darkside> and since HF APRS Is 300 baud, you need pwoer.
[11:42] <fsphil> the noise problem is worse on HF
[11:42] <Darkside> yep
[11:42] <Darkside> much worse
[11:43] <fsphil> I think it'll have to be a slow data mode for HF
[11:43] <Darkside> yep
[11:43] <Steve_G0TDJ> Interestingly GMT I was going to do a Through-hole version of the tracker. Just for the excercise. I probably wouldn't get it fabricated.
[11:43] <Darkside> im actually doing a bit of work on that
[11:43] <fsphil> dl-wspr :)
[11:43] <Darkside> not quite
[11:43] <GMT> Steve, that Larkhill sonde is almost overhead you now, on 404.4 mhz
[11:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> Oh? I wonder if I can get 404MHz on any of my radios
[11:44] <ed__> we should set up a network of distributed lasers to shoot down met sondes
[11:44] <Darkside> fsphil: im thinking somthing similar to THOR, but with more error correction
[11:44] <GMT> its narrow FM
[11:44] <fsphil> slow it down a bit too maybe Darkside
[11:44] <Darkside> take a page from STANAG4415's book, and use Rate R=1/32 coding
[11:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> I need to get the dongle sorted for that I think
[11:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> DOngles well worth it
[11:45] <fsphil> if it can be made narrow we could fit more than a few in a 1khz band
[11:45] <Darkside> fsphil: i have plans :-)
[11:45] <Darkside> you dont want it too narrow
[11:45] <fsphil> so THOR but like wspr
[11:45] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGKtKLHD1cM&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL73EC00A8E1CA7C03
[11:45] <Darkside> the narrower you go, the more doppler spread affects it
[11:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> there are some e4000 on ebay at present as well
[11:45] <Laurenceb> what the fuuuu am i watching
[11:45] <Darkside> and doppler spread can be bad on HF
[11:45] <GMT> Ive got a couple of dongles, think abt an HF upconvertor 'just for the craic'
[11:45] <fsphil> not doppler of the payload surely?
[11:45] <Darkside> fsphil: no, this is doppler spread from the ionosphre
[11:45] <fsphil> ah
[11:46] <fsphil> as if phase changes where not bad enough
[11:46] <Darkside> the result is effectivly the transmitted signal, mixed with gaussian distributed noise
[11:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> The Noelectric convertor is naff I have found, works but useless :-(
[11:46] <Darkside> anyway, you get around this by spreading our your tonws
[11:47] <fsphil> so fast but with a crap load of FEC
[11:47] <Darkside> not too fast
[11:47] <Darkside> anyway
[11:47] <Darkside> im working on it :-)
[11:47] <GMT> I was thinking of the hamitup convertor
[11:47] <Darkside> like, thi is what the next 3 months of my life is going to be
[11:47] <Darkside> or more
[11:47] <Darkside> ill be experimenting with some very low rate codes
[11:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> Herstmonceux up as well
[11:48] <fsphil> shout if you need help for any non-maths problems :)
[11:48] <Darkside> fsphil: olivia uses 7/64 coding, using hadamard transforms
[11:48] <GMT> He'cx will be heading due east, so going away from me
[11:48] <Darkside> so my thought is what if you xtend that out to 7/128
[11:48] <Darkside> or 7/256
[11:48] <Steve_G0TDJ> Geoff-G8DHE: Is there a page like SpaceNear that shows where they are? The Sondes.
[11:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> Nope keep wondering if it would be worth discussing a feed /overlay on snus!
[11:49] <GMT> Larkhill sonde now crossing the M25 at dartford, heading ENE at 8000m+
[11:49] <Steve_G0TDJ> Geoff-G8DHE: It's very much related.
[11:50] <GMT> it would look good on SNUS, and creating many more tracking opportunities; lotsa sondes during the week!
[11:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> Biggest problem is feeding decodong the data and sending it to a central spot, dl-fldigi doesn't handle it
[11:50] <GMT> sonde position update every second or so, rather than every 10-15 with a HAB
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[11:51] <Steve_G0TDJ> Who looks after Dl-FLDigi?
[11:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> ony prog is SondeMonitor and that doesnt seem to have been updated in a while now
[11:51] <GMT> there is a 'bodge' to make sondes appear on APRS
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[11:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> fsphil was at one poijnt I beleieve Phil ?
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[11:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> Herstc, just leaving the Coast over Dungeness
[11:53] <GMT> is the Herstcx one on 404.8?
[11:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> Something on404.2MHz Reading ? as well now
[11:54] <fsphil> GMT: Geoff-G8DHE: yea I just tailed the output log from sondemonitor and pushed the coordinates to habitat
[11:54] <mfa298> Steve_G0TDJ: I think there are a few people that have done work on dl-fldigi - the source is available for anyone to do work on it.
[11:54] <fsphil> it was a bit unreliable
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[11:55] <Steve_G0TDJ> mfa298: I'm not much of a programmer I'm afraid.
[11:55] <GMT> nothing seen here on 404.2
[11:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> Herst on 404.8, Larkhill 404.4 and I guess reading on 404.2
[11:55] <GMT> 404.2 is not a Reading freq... may be Nottingham, but that's a long way!
[11:56] <fsphil> there are no open source programs that can decode these sondes sadly
[11:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WeatherSondes/Capture2.JPG
[11:56] <GMT> I've fired-up the dongle, nothing showing on 404.8 or 404.2. When the Larkhill one fades I will try 404.2
[11:56] <fsphil> I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult getting the frames from the signal, but understanding the data would be the trick
[11:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> Also you have to process the GPS data as its phase/fre etc.
[11:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Might not be able to track Vanyu on Sunday Steve_G0TDJ, hoping to get the aerials down if weather permits :-(
[11:58] <GMT> the Larkhill sonde now going down the Thames estuary, with a projected landing in the sea off Southen
[11:59] <GMT> signal getting too noisy, will now look at those others.
[11:59] <Geoff-G8DHE> Herstmonceux mid-channel heading Calais
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[11:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> No worries Geoff-G8DHE
[12:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> they desperately need an overhaul, and keep putting it off!
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[12:02] <GMT> Steve_G0TDJ: good luck for Sunday, hope the weather holds out for you
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[12:02] <GMT> but I fear the worst
[12:02] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cheers GMT Well, forecast looks OK at the mo
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[12:10] <GMT> Steve_G0TDJ: I was watching the Beeb forecast for the next 3 days
[12:10] <Steve_G0TDJ> Oh?
[12:11] <Steve_G0TDJ> I looked on the BBC weather site and it looked reasonable
[12:11] <GMT> they showed bands of rain at various times over the weekend
[12:12] <GMT> it seems to show a lot of rain for Sunday morning
[12:12] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yes, I think it will be changeable. But I am launching a stones throw from here so I can make the decision immediately
[12:13] <DL1SGP> hi Steve_G0TDJ :) hi GMT, hi all
[12:13] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hey Felix :-)
[12:13] <GMT> hi dl1sgp
[12:14] <Steve_G0TDJ> Just have to keep my fingers crossed they'll be enough clear sky to get a decent launch
[12:15] <mfa298> there are some storm warnings for hampshire again although I'm not sure quite when thats for.
[12:15] <ed__> a storm
[12:15] <GMT> There's a lot of rain tonight, and later on Sunday
[12:15] <Andrew_M6GTG> strong sonde signal here on 404.2, so assume it is Nottingham (can't decode it)
[12:16] <ed__> yes, super un-useful for fireworks
[12:16] <mfa298> looks like it's heavy rain today and into tomrrow now not so much storms
[12:16] <GMT> send a rocket up into a storm cloud with an attached filament of wire to attract some lightning
[12:16] <GMT> Andrew_M6GTG: where are you?
[12:16] <Steve_G0TDJ> Anyone know the current requirement for an ATMEGA328p off the top of their head?
[12:16] <Andrew_M6GTG> GMT: Newark
[12:17] <GMT> okay, no wonder you can hear the Nott sonde
[12:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> Humm yes not decoding the 404.2 strong with me as well
[12:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> sounds different also
[12:18] <GMT> I can't even hear it!
[12:18] <GMT> and I'm closer than Geoff
[12:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> its a lower pitched whine without the pulsing compared to Herst
[12:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> looks the same on w/f
[12:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WeatherSondes/Capture3.JPG
[12:21] <fsphil> handy reference: http://www.radiosonde.eu/RS02/RS02C.html
[12:21] <GMT> hmmm, my copy of sdrradio has stopped working
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[12:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> looking at that 404.2 its not quite the same to extra lobes and the fine detail is different, maybe a different protocol being used ??
[12:26] <GMT> unless it's one from France?
[12:26] <fsphil> 404.2 has a different colour on the map
[12:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> Difficult to say without geo adat!
[12:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> data
[12:27] <Geoff-G8DHE> Which map fsphil
[12:27] <GMT> the map on radiosonde.eu
[12:28] <fsphil> Geoff-G8DHE: http://www.radiosonde.eu/RS02/RS02C.html
[12:28] <fsphil> it's green
[12:28] <fsphil> most are yellow
[12:29] <GMT> Maybe it's an M10 from Camborne?
[12:29] <GMT> maybe what Andrew hears and Geoff hears are different sondes
[12:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> looking at the w/f on that page it doesn't look like an M10
[12:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> nor a M2K2
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[12:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> but could be a M2K2 looking at the FFT
[12:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its the double sidebands that are thre main difference
[12:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> selecting M2K2 on SM isn't getting a response either
[12:35] <fsphil> faulty radio perhaps
[12:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> There was a similar one the othernight I think on the same freq. and I wondred if that might be faulty as no decode, but two .....
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[12:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> could be bad batch
[12:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> but they are modulated with something
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[12:41] <Andrew_M6GTG> well just stumped up for Sondemonitor, no decode ;-)
[12:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Is your w/f the same as mine Andrew_M6GTG ?
[12:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WeatherSondes/Capture3.JPG
[12:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> the double sidebands ?
[12:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> Oh hangon just rebooted the server as having problems that won't be visible for a minute
[12:45] <fsphil> windows server?
[12:45] <Andrew_M6GTG> similar, don't have the two lines on each, just one
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[12:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah right maybe we are looking at different balloons but strange
[12:49] <Andrew_M6GTG> Geoff-G8DHE: I am doing this all remotely Geoff, using my RTL-SDR rather than the FCDP+ (doesn't cover freq) I do have a FCD that does cover it, but not running at moment
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[12:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah OK, yes know the feeling ;-)
[12:51] <Andrew_M6GTG> Tried running Sondemonitor last month, but seemed to think I'd already used it, tried again today and said I was on day 28 of 21 day trial!! Thought what the hell and paid for it ;-)
[12:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> right all back
[12:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its the only one it works but a bit clumsy at times, annoyingly he keeps all the files open R/W so you can't run multipile copies easily :-(
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[12:52] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[12:53] <Andrew_M6GTG> It should be NFM? for decode
[12:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup
[12:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah ha just heard the normal tons looked back and the double sidebands have gone
[12:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> tones
[12:54] <fsphil> weird
[12:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> I wonder if it locked up in an odd mode
[12:55] <Andrew_M6GTG> Funny I got double side tones now ;-)
[12:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> SM is trying for calibration now as well
[12:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WeatherSondes/Capture4.JPG
[12:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> its quite a bit weaker now however
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[12:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> right off for lunch AFK
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[13:03] <ed__> you remember a couple of weeks ago i was bitching loudly about the explosion about 200m from my office
[13:04] <ed__> that no one thought to tell us was going to happen, despite us running a rocket testing site where an explosion not preceeded by a warning siren normally means someone has died
[13:04] <ed__> remember?
[13:04] <x-f_> yep
[13:04] <Darkside> so what was it?
[13:05] <x-f_> some TV show
[13:05] <adamgreig> the slo mo guys
[13:05] <adamgreig> is it on youtube now?
[13:05] <GMT> somebody died?
[13:05] <adamgreig> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTUu4ZLtDSs
[13:06] <adamgreig> haha wat
[13:06] <adamgreig> they didn't think to tell anyone?
[13:06] <ed__> http://youtu.be/bTUu4ZLtDSs?t=5m12s
[13:06] <ed__> nope
[13:06] <adamgreig> oh jeez
[13:06] <adamgreig> what the hell
[13:07] <ed__> i know!
[13:07] <ed__> i saw that out of my window
[13:07] <ed__> nearly leapt out of my skin
[13:07] <adamgreig> christ, yes
[13:07] <adamgreig> that's kinda insanely irresponsible
[13:07] <adamgreig> also a waste of a lovely concrete bunker :(
[13:07] <Darkside> jeez
[13:07] <ed__> the bunker is fine
[13:07] <ed__> i'm sure it was all sfx
[13:08] <adamgreig> lol
[13:08] <adamgreig> yea I guess the concrete's gonna hold up no probs
[13:08] <adamgreig> still need a new door >_>
[13:08] <Darkside> all th wood lbew out
[13:08] <Darkside> hah
[13:08] <Darkside> still, wow
[13:08] <adamgreig> I guess EA paid for that then huh
[13:08] <adamgreig> admittedly does look like a fun thing to do
[13:08] <adamgreig> just... not without telling anyone?
[13:08] <adamgreig> or a siren at least
[13:09] <Darkside> bit dumb jhow they set it off
[13:09] <adamgreig> I imagine that was a big part of the point
[13:09] <ed__> we honestly thought J3 had blown up
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[13:09] <ed__> as in, in the first 2ms after the sound, by initial response was to call 999 with the special code we have to tell the fire service that there's a fire between hypergolics
[13:10] <ed__> and then i saw it was coming from over K site
[13:10] <ed__> assumed it was some old solids dump that someone had forgotten about
[13:10] <adamgreig> your job is too cool >_>
[13:10] <ed__> an then saw people wandering around quite calmly
[13:10] <ed__> so i figured out it must have been some kind of deliberate thing
[13:10] <ed__> but jeez
[13:10] <ed__> it really shook the windows
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[13:12] <adamgreig> I bet
[13:13] <ed__> oh well
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[13:14] <ed__> the guys visiting us from solidworks enjoyed it
[13:14] <adamgreig> they were there at the time? haha
[13:15] <ed__> although they said that when they saw us leap and and spring into emergency response, that they got the willies
[13:15] <adamgreig> I bet the various sales reps love your site
[13:15] <adamgreig> must be a bit more exciting than most of their customers
[13:16] <ed__> yes
[13:16] <ed__> it's good like that
[13:16] <ed__> the rohde & scwharz man lends us so much nice stuff just because we do fun things
[13:17] <adamgreig> nice
[13:17] <ed__> even though our annual turnover is probably less than the price he can sell one 4G simulation suite to vodafone for
[13:17] <Babs> those guys will die at some point. all explosions are good until you get a direct hit and then you find out that in the battle between a metal shard or rapid gas expansion at 400mph + and your head, the metal shard or rapid gas expansion tends to win
[13:18] <ed__> yes
[13:18] <ed__> although, i'm sure they weren't really real grenades
[13:18] <SpeedEvil> 1/r^2 - the best shielding.
[13:18] <Babs> when I was in the chemical industry one of our competitors had a guy who was cleaning out a massive tank. Think bus sized with a small 30cm by 30cm aperture at one end
[13:18] <ed__> it wouldn've been a dud then separately set off low-yeild sfx explosives in the other part of the stand
[13:18] <adamgreig> Babs: key word "had"?
[13:19] <Babs> key word adamgreig
[13:19] <adamgreig> :(
[13:19] <Babs> they basically found this guy headless with his head 20m away
[13:19] <GMT> where was that filmed than?
[13:19] <GMT> seems vaguely familiar
[13:20] <Babs> he had been using a spade to chip away at residue just inside the aperture, there was volatile gases left in the tank and then boom
[13:20] <ed__> GMT, Westcott
[13:20] <ed__> near oxford, in bucks
[13:20] <ed__> it was the Rocket Prpulsion Establishment
[13:20] <Babs> real life Javier Bardem No Country for Old Men moment, just scaled up
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[13:25] <GMT> okay, wasn't where I was thinking ...don't know where I *was* thinking but wasn't Westcott
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[13:26] <ed__> that used to be a stand for vertically firing engines
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[13:37] <fsphil> it certainly looked cool
[13:37] <fsphil> shame they went about it the wrong way
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[13:53] <Laurenceb> http://www.calibrax.myby.co.uk/b3ta/spocksearch.jpg
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[13:57] <SP9UOB-Tom> afternoon :-)
[13:58] <ed__> hello SP9UOB-Tom
[13:58] <ed__> so far today
[13:58] <ed__> rain
[13:58] <ed__> some met sondes of 404.something MHz
[13:58] <SP9UOB-Tom> fsphil: hi, have You some time for 21 MHz test :) ?
[13:58] <ed__> an explosion near my window
[13:58] <ed__> and laurence providing an irellevent picture
[14:01] <fsphil> SP9UOB-Tom: I'm home in about 40 minutes. will try then. I got the dds-60 working too
[14:02] <fsphil> so in theory I can transmit at some very low power
[14:04] <SP9UOB-Tom> fsphil: ok :-)
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> Sort of related to Laurenceb's pic.
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/patrick-stewart-2.jpg
[14:06] <mattbrejza> the metro's website is wordpress? :P
[14:08] <fsphil> patrick stewart is certainly enjoying old age
[14:10] <daveake> I think he's spent a bit too much time at Ten Forward
[14:15] <fsphil> he's been warned about the romulan ale many times
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> Problem is that he's now taking 'Tea, Earl Grey, Irish'.
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[14:18] <ed__> you would have thought that if they could invent a replicator they could also invent a natural language parser
[14:19] <daveake> He tried to resist ....
[14:19] <daveake> (make your own joke)
[14:19] <ed__> rather than the end users having tomentally sotre a sort of Trie data structure of all things in the universie in their head
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[14:20] <daveake> I think I need that parser right now
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> ed__: It works normally. But only for polish food.
[14:21] <fsphil> probably designed for a previous captain of the enterprise. "I'd. Like. Some tea. Please. Computer."
[14:22] <daveake> to boldly split tea bags
[14:22] <adamgreig> ed__: there's post for mackay in the sigproc corridor mail inbox
[14:22] <adamgreig> so maybe he is F
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[14:22] <ed__> see if you can spot him in the wild
[14:22] <adamgreig> yea gonna bring my book in to try and get an autograph ;)
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[14:22] <ed__> blurred and ambiguous camera-phone pics
[14:22] <adamgreig> apparently not the first person to have this idea etc
[14:22] <adamgreig> in that we all have our books in
[14:23] <adamgreig> and waiting for someone to spot him
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[14:28] <adamgreig> ed__: apparently the sigproc coffee room is getting a TV now
[14:28] <adamgreig> as in there's a guy installing one now
[14:28] <ed__> a meeting presentation display?
[14:28] <adamgreig> nope
[14:28] <adamgreig> one of the screens to advertise department stuff, like they have all over
[14:28] <adamgreig> but with the connectors exposed
[14:28] <ed__> do you really need department advertising piped into the coffee room?
[14:29] <adamgreig> no we really don't
[14:29] <adamgreig> but the TV with connectors exposed can quite quickly not do department advertising
[14:29] <ed__> ah i see
[14:29] <ed__> for jens's film nights
[14:29] <adamgreig> hehe
[14:30] <ed__> well that's cool
[14:30] <ed__> how research?
[14:30] <adamgreig> yup guess so
[14:30] <adamgreig> good I think
[14:30] <adamgreig> trying to remember estimation theory from last year
[14:31] <adamgreig> and reading up on a lot of various stats and comms stuff
[14:31] <adamgreig> starting to hit the part where I need maths
[14:31] <ed__> yeah
[14:31] <ed__> there's a lot of value in tackling a chapter of mackay
[14:31] <adamgreig> figure out optimal coefficients and algorithms rather than heuristics and guesswork
[14:31] <adamgreig> yea
[14:31] <ed__> if you can find one near enough
[14:31] <adamgreig> got a few books my supervisor recommeded out of the lib
[14:31] <adamgreig> first time I've rented a book from a cambridge library
[14:32] <ed__> rented as in money?
[14:32] <adamgreig> trying to do this MMSE estimator and I'm sure there's a happier way to do it with posteriors instead
[14:32] <adamgreig> no, as in borrowed from the library
[14:32] <ed__> ah
[14:32] <adamgreig> never needed to for my undergrad
[14:32] <adamgreig> but I get weeks per book and frankly no one else in the dept is gonna want them
[14:32] <ed__> i found some old book on mechanical gyros in the UL once
[14:33] <adamgreig> nice
[14:33] <ed__> helped for 3C5 coursework
[14:33] <adamgreig> I've never actually been inside the UL
[14:33] <adamgreig> might do one day
[14:33] <ed__> precession blew matt's mind when he visited on wed
[14:33] <adamgreig> haha oh nice
[14:33] <adamgreig> it is mental
[14:33] <ed__> on the old gyroc gyro
[14:33] <adamgreig> sweet
[14:33] <adamgreig> gyroscopes are like a mecheng's best friend. the maths is wonderful
[14:33] <adamgreig> how was the visit? did you get to burn anything?
[14:34] <ed__> we watched a moog test fire
[14:34] <ed__> same thing ara saw
[14:34] <ed__> and did the basics of rocket science
[14:34] <adamgreig> nice
[14:34] <ed__> showed matt what an oscilloscope is and we used it to help observe some things on his new pcb
[14:34] <ed__> and have lent him my old tek
[14:35] <ed__> i think he was quite sold on the salaea too
[14:35] <ed__> saleae*
[14:35] <adamgreig> they are great
[14:35] <daveake> good
[14:35] <ed__> we hooked it up to his spi line to see data being written to his sd card
[14:35] <adamgreig> though I haven't used mine in a long time
[14:35] <adamgreig> not done enough tricky digital electronics really
[14:35] <adamgreig> wombat didn't need any test kit even
[14:35] <adamgreig> well the radio side could have done with it but I got nothing that'l do 434MHz
[14:35] <ed__> printf and an led
[14:35] <adamgreig> yea
[14:35] <ed__> amazing what you can do between those two
[14:35] <adamgreig> gdb is nice too
[14:36] <adamgreig> well no, it's not, it's awful
[14:36] <adamgreig> but a working debugger that lets you breakpoint and inspect variables is defo handy for trickier software
[14:36] <fsphil> yes. awful
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[14:36] <fsphil> necessary evil
[14:36] <ed__> and we had a bit of a look around the workshop
[14:36] <ed__> different kinds of welding, turning, milling, camposites (martlet 0 is here) and other stuff
[14:36] <ed__> was a good visit
[14:37] <ed__> i think he miht have the rocket bug
[14:37] <adamgreig> hehe
[14:37] <adamgreig> yea I miss m0 being around the lab
[14:37] <adamgreig> oh well. m2 soon hopefully. not sure there's been any progress on that front yet though.
[14:37] <ed__> get them to get going :)
[14:38] <ed__> as we know, it's super easy for a term to flick by with zero pogress
[14:38] <adamgreig> yea for sure
[14:39] <adamgreig> making some progress on alumni dinner but really need that sorted so we can send out save-the-date emails soon
[14:39] <adamgreig> issue is the nicest room to have it in at selwyn requires a fellow dine with us
[14:39] <adamgreig> and the only selwyn fellow I know well enough to ask is currently hospitalised
[14:39] <ed__> hmm
[14:39] <adamgreig> so might have to change to another college or a different room
[14:39] <adamgreig> or just go to a restaurant instead, but a college would be fun
[14:41] <ed__> yes agreed
[14:41] <ed__> it would be
[14:41] <adamgreig> college does have another ok room. gonna see if joe (currently ugrad selwyn) can speak to his DoS tho
[14:41] <adamgreig> one committee person is at Chu but idk if they'd be a good place for it or what?
[14:43] <tweetBot> @stratodean: Our attempt at a HAB inspired pumpkin yesterday! #pumpkinpayload #ukhas http://t.co/5iwmrpSS8t
[14:44] <ed__> they do have some private dining rooms
[14:44] <ed__> mark really lkes HAB
[14:45] <adamgreig> also selwyn requires 20 guests min for the price to be £28 each
[14:45] <adamgreig> which is probably doable but depends how many current members turn up
[14:45] <adamgreig> reckon we'd get close to 15 just from alumni and the current committee
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[14:47] <ed__> yep
[14:47] <ed__> i could even try and locate Carl
[14:47] <adamgreig> phoar, I didn't know he was ever contactable
[14:47] <adamgreig> we spent years trying to get him to reply to emails for the domain
[14:48] <ed__> there are rumours and sightings
[14:48] <adamgreig> yes
[14:48] <adamgreig> he turns up in funny places
[14:48] <adamgreig> think something with LHS and maybe russss knows him or something
[14:48] <adamgreig> and devfort?
[14:50] <ed__> he seems to have abondoned all online things
[14:50] <ed__> like fb
[14:51] <adamgreig> and email >_>
[14:52] <ed__> what's the best way to learn about securing linux systems?
[14:52] <ed__> like web-facing machines
[14:52] <ed__> it would be rgeat if there was some sort of course that taught you something and then had to have to fix a toy 'compromised' server
[14:52] <ed__> at the end of each module
[14:53] <adamgreig> the NSA actually have a handbook
[14:53] <ed__> and then maybe some final exam where some chinese or NSA people try and throw everything they can at you to read a text file somewhere, and you must defend that text file
[14:53] <adamgreig> but I'm not sure I know of any interactive-like courses
[14:53] <adamgreig> they must exist but I've not really looked, I accumulated a lot of that knowledge slowly toying with things years ago
[14:54] <adamgreig> depends how paranoid you're getting though
[14:54] <ed__> a bit
[14:54] <adamgreig> up to date web server and SSH server and firewall off all the other ports, don't run dodgy web apps, run things with their own user and use user perms properly
[14:54] <adamgreig> there's not much to it at that level
[14:54] <adamgreig> up a notch and you use SELinux and policy and it gets a bit messier
[14:54] <adamgreig> if you want you can also do things like send log messages to a write-only server elsewhere so you have secure logs
[14:54] <adamgreig> and backups etc
[14:55] <adamgreig> SSH should be key only, no passwords and no root
[14:55] <adamgreig> mostly it's about making sure you keep everything up to date though
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[14:55] <adamgreig> that's what'l get you
[14:56] <adamgreig> and that goes double for things like wordpress (don't use it) or any other web app beyond the web server itself
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[14:56] <mfa298> for the most part I'd agree with adamgreig, keep stuff up to date, have as little running as possible, firewall as much as possible.
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[14:56] <mfa298> stay away from dodgy php applications and frameworks as much as possible (unless you really like patching stuff regularly)
[14:56] <adamgreig> stay away from php
[14:56] <adamgreig> entirely
[14:57] <mfa298> Most of the attacks I see against web servers is from things trying to find badly setup phpMyAdmin
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> There is an easy interactive way of checking your security.
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> Post the IP to 4chan
[14:57] <ed__> lol
[14:57] <ed__> that could be interesting
[14:58] <mfa298> although I think the only times I've had a compromised system is from a poor password. It's great watching the script kiddies trying to run linux exploits on a solaris box
[14:59] <adamgreig> your ssh should not allow passwords at all, and user account passwords should be good (plus use sudo). web facing passwords is always going to be an issue
[15:00] <mfa298> from the sysadmin PoV I like stuff that's packaged by a trusted source on a linux distro with a long support life (rhel/ centos/ ubuntu lts). And then try to stay away from installing stuff from source. That way keeping is updated is easy
[15:01] <mfa298> In that instance I had been playing with cyrus imapd so created an account for it and the password==username (that was quite a few years ago now)
[15:01] <adamgreig> ah yea. this is where debian/ubuntu making user accounts for your system services that don't have passwords and can't log in is a good approach I think
[15:01] <ed__> nice
[15:02] <mfa298> most unixes do that as standard
[15:03] <mfa298> Ideally of course your webservers etc. would be limited where you can SSH into them from with a seperate machine that you ssh into first if you're remote.
[15:04] <mfa298> if you really want security you get some sort of appliance that can inspect the webtraffic that sits in front of the web server - (Chechpoint, F5, ...). But that get's more expensive unless you're a bank.
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[15:05] <adamgreig> depends a bit what the security is for too
[15:05] <adamgreig> if you're just trying to have a company internal wiki, obviously you don't let it be web accessible at all
[15:05] <adamgreig> if you're serving a public website, it shouldn't have any confidential info on it anyway, so you jsut don't want it vandalised
[15:06] <adamgreig> if you're trying to share confidential information with non-company members maybe there's a better solution than a web server
[15:07] <mfa298> good, regular, *tested* backups and a *tested* Disaster Recovery procedure are good as well. So that even if something does happen you can recover quickly.
[15:07] <Elwell> slightly OT but I know people here have been trying: how the buggery do you switch a ublox into timing mode?
[15:07] <Elwell> ie stationary
[15:07] <adamgreig> if you're feeling cool, use configuration management and git repos for your content, so you can deploy a whole server from known-good config in no time at all
[15:07] <adamgreig> but mfa298's comments are testing are crucial. backups are not backups unless you regularly test recovering from them
[15:07] <adamgreig> about testing*
[15:09] <mfa298> and ideally testing on slightly different hardware
[15:10] Action: mfa298 remembers pulling tapedrives from servers after a building fire as there was a fear that backup tapes might not work in a different drive if recovery was needed.
[15:11] <UpuWork> DLT drives...
[15:12] <Elwell> so, I guess upu's not about then
[15:12] <UpuWork> no
[15:13] <UpuWork> was someone after me ?
[15:13] <Elwell> me: gpsctl to switch to stationary mode - did you get it working?
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[15:15] <mattbrejza> Elwell: tried connecting to ucentre and arsing around with settings?
[15:16] <Elwell> that means I have to remove from raspberry pi and find a windows VM...
[15:16] <UpuWork> you mean from the gpsd mailing lis t?
[15:16] <Elwell> yeah
[15:16] <UpuWork> no response at all
[15:16] <UpuWork> do me a favour
[15:16] <mattbrejza> did ucetnre run under wine?
[15:16] <UpuWork> can you respond to it and just say something like I'm interested in this as well
[15:17] <Elwell> sure - will do
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[15:17] <UpuWork> I suspect Eric Raymond is avoiding it
[15:17] <UpuWork> as I'm fairly sure its a bug
[15:17] <UpuWork> its not calculating the checksum correctly when it issues the command
[15:17] <Elwell> http://www.u-blox.com/en/evaluation-software/u-center.html ?
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[15:18] <mattbrejza> yea thats the one
[15:18] <Elwell> goddamit. I nuked my win7 virtualbox image
[15:18] <UpuWork> you can set it via u-center and save the config
[15:19] Action: Elwell digs out work laptop
[15:19] <UpuWork> but it should be possible via the Pi
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[15:19] <mattbrejza> even if you dont connect it to the gps, you can still use it to generate the required hex values
[15:19] <UpuWork> yep
[15:19] <Elwell> then it'll always boot in tat mode? (haven't put the battery on the breakout)
[15:19] <UpuWork> the thing is mattbrejza
[15:19] <UpuWork> the GPS is controlled by GPSD
[15:19] <UpuWork> on the Pi
[15:20] <UpuWork> and it comes with a gpsctl command
[15:20] <UpuWork> which should be able to issue binary comands
[15:20] <UpuWork> but its calculating the checksum incorrectly
[15:20] <mattbrejza> can you turn off the checksum?
[15:20] <UpuWork> no
[15:20] <mattbrejza> if you send two extra bytes after the normal message will the gps ignore them?
[15:21] <adamgreig> u-center works fine under wine
[15:22] <UpuWork> http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/gpsd-users/2013-10/msg00050.html
[15:23] <mattbrejza> i guess should be an easyish to fix bug that you shouldbt bother having to look into how to work around?
[15:24] <UpuWork> exactly
[15:24] <mattbrejza> also assuming you can always do all the gps stuff directly yourself?
[15:24] <UpuWork> I think he's working on it :
[15:24] <UpuWork> http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/gpsd-users/2013-10/msg00016.html
[15:25] Nick change: wd8mnv -> wd8mnv_away
[15:29] <Elwell> that sounds a promising outcome - ublox helping with docs too
[15:31] <Elwell> ah - flaw in my 'use windows / ucentre' plan -- can I just plug it into a ftdi connectpr?
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[15:32] <adamgreig> yea
[15:32] <adamgreig> works with wine too
[15:35] <Elwell> don't have wine on osx :-p
[15:36] <adamgreig> you can get it I think, but fe :P
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[15:51] <ed__> i'm back to looking at precision network time
[15:52] <adamgreig> not the easiest problem
[15:52] <ed__> ha @ that gpsd mailing list thing
[15:52] <ed__> yes
[15:52] <ed__> it is tedious
[15:53] <ed__> a lot of the hard ublox spaffing i've taken to doing with the logic analyser
[15:53] <ed__> recording rx and tx with two pairs of probes
[15:53] <ed__> one pair set to analyse at the baud rate you 8think* it should be
[15:54] <ed__> one pair to pick up the pieces when it randomly decides to change baud rate because you though you were masking only a power usage bit
[15:54] <ed__> but hahahaha no, you actually have changed the baud rate because you forget to drink a glass of milk whilst balancing on one leg
[15:54] <adamgreig> need to be located on a prime numbered degree of latitude
[15:56] <ed__> oh that's ESR
[15:56] <ed__> i thought the author sounded a bit up himself
[15:57] <ed__> didn't realise he did gpsd
[15:57] <adamgreig> lol
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[15:58] Action: mfa298 likes C++, it took as long to plug the ntx2b into some breadboard (yes I know) as it took to add code on the pi to send data to the ntx2 and ntx2b.
[15:58] <craag> mfa298: Diversity tx now then?
[15:59] <mfa298> yep, and it seems to work - although I'm not getting good data from the gps now (but that could be weather / power / breadboard)
[16:00] <mfa298> although I did intially have the gpio numbers mixed up between the enable and data pins for the ntx2 which didn't work too well
[16:00] <craag> hehe no
[16:03] <mfa298> hmmm, running the ntx2b at 600bd and the ntx2 at 300bd has some errors on the 600bd - not sure if that's thread timing or something else (would probably be good enough for ssdv)
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[16:06] <craag> I got errors at 600 baud with my demo over the weekend, I think it might just have been rx overload
[16:06] <mfa298> I think I had it going pretty well before.
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[16:06] <SpeedEvil> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BX7xWLqCIAELG2c.jpg:large - allegedly from ISS.
[16:06] <mfa298> but I've probably added extra noise on the breadboard as well now which may not help
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> Pretty (though inaccurate)
[16:07] <craag> Also I noticed the fcdpp degraded over time
[16:07] <craag> over a period of 6 hours i'd get more and more errors, eventually blocks being lost.
[16:08] <craag> Clicked 'Stop' then 'Start' in sdr#, completely recovers then slowly starts degrading again.
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[16:17] <Elwell> mutter.Just get a bloody lock will you. stupid gps
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[16:19] <Andrew_M6GTG> any Bladerunner fans? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTbpWak1O0w
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[16:21] <ed__> adamgreig, look at this
[16:21] <ed__> http://www.catb.org/gpsd/history.html
[16:21] <ed__> it is clearly written by ESR himself
[16:22] <ed__> from about the 6th paragraph, 204
[16:22] <ed__> likewise this, because no one else in the universe would describe ESR in such a way, except ESR himself
[16:22] <ed__> "The current project lead, Eric S. Raymond, is an open-source luminary; as co-founder and President Emeritus of the Open Source Initiative, he has long been one of the movement's principal theoreticians and public spokepersons."
[16:23] <adamgreig> lol
[16:23] <ed__> but, if he's done stuff towards making the CFG message documentation better from ublox, I'll buy him a beer
[16:23] <adamgreig> "yes, _that_ ESR"
[16:23] <ed__> if he can extracate his head from his own bottom long enough to drink it, that is
[16:25] <ed__> and the project has hacker's guide which is very good. how and why and what to start on
[16:26] <Elwell> only if he refrains from nibbling his foot cheese during beer drinking
[16:26] <ed__> i thing he generally eschews the characteristics of Stallman
[16:27] <ed__> like eating his own foot cheese in public, making asbergersey noises, and solving complicated technical problems with software
[16:27] <Elwell> wait - was the foot chese rms? - apologies
[16:28] <ed__> yep
[16:29] <Elwell> pah still 'no fix' -- I guess I have to find a clearer view of sky
[16:29] <daveake> I wish I hadn't googled that
[16:29] <ed__> :)
[16:29] <Elwell> daveake: youtube cannot be unseen
[16:30] <daveake> OK, that beats Monkey Boy Balmer as the most embarassing YT video ever
[16:31] Action: fsphil makes a note not to watch whatever that is
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[16:32] <Elwell> fsphil: so you won't be clicking on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ then
[16:32] <fsphil> regarding the security talk earlier. I had a spare windows xp machine, SP3, and opened up a VNC port with no password -- three days it ran and the only thing anyone did was move the mouse
[16:32] Action: fsphil resists
[16:33] <daveake> come on fsphil, toe the line
[16:34] <Elwell> it'll gnaw away at you until you do
[16:34] <fsphil> random animal picture to distract: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BX_7Y8bIAAA5l5z.jpg:large
[16:34] <chrisstubbs> daveake that was just cheesy
[16:34] <fsphil> ok now I really don't want to click on the link
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[16:41] <mfa298> youtube / ipv6 / slow adsl saved me from seeing anything bad on that video, it took long enough to buffer and then moved onto something else.
[16:42] <jarod> dem off topic links... seen countless today.... kick 90% of us!
[16:42] <ed__> best if you shut up, jarod
[16:43] <jarod> dem off topic links... seen countless today.... kick 90% of us!
[16:43] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[16:43] <ed__> sigh
[16:43] Nick change: ed__ -> eroomde
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[16:45] <eroomde> I'll explain it again on the generous assumption that it wasn't explained properly
[16:45] <eroomde> OT stuff is fine and part-and-parcel of a channel. 99% of it comes from users who are mostly on topic and do balloon stuff
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[16:46] <eroomde> it's when it comes from people who only every post OT stuff that it's a problem
[16:46] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: can You listen at 15m ?
[16:46] <DL1SGP1> sure Tom :D
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[16:46] <eroomde> just as a group that meets in a pub ostensibly to talk about, I dunno, cars, will sometimes talk about other stuff, but it's not appropriate for someone to join the car group to only ever talk about dungeons and dragons
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[16:47] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP:dial 21.435 domino should be +1 kHz
[16:47] <DL1SGP1> transmitting?
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[16:48] <SP9UOB-Tom> now
[16:48] <DL1SGP1> I hear it faintly
[16:49] <DL1SGP1> got a bunch of QRM
[16:49] <SP9UOB-Tom> doing some oscillator callibrarion
[16:49] <DL1SGP1> local stuff
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[16:49] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP1: 600mW
[16:49] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
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[16:50] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: try to decode :-)
[16:50] <DL1SGP> other unit or built a little PA?
[16:51] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: switched to class E PA
[16:51] <DL1SGP> ah
[16:53] <DL1SGP> sorry Tom, too much noise right now to get something useful done
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[16:54] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: thanks :-)
[16:54] <DL1SGP> but keep asking whenever you got tests to run
[16:55] <SP9UOB-Tom> ok
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[16:56] <DL1SGP> and if you plan something a bit earlier... my email address is on qrz :)
[17:00] <eroomde> adamgreig, so IEEE1588 is pretty cool
[17:00] <eroomde> for us accuracy on ethernet
[17:00] <eroomde> us = microseconds
[17:00] <adamgreig> isn't that what you were using before?
[17:00] <eroomde> no, it's what i tried to use but thought was much more complicated than it was because the hardware was so expensive
[17:01] <eroomde> or rather it was left as a work in progress
[17:01] <eroomde> now i'm returning
[17:01] <eroomde> you can do it all in software with OTS hardware
[17:01] <eroomde> in the newer standard that's made much much easier
[17:02] <adamgreig> ah, nice
[17:02] <eroomde> so you just elect a master and have it send what it thinks the time is, and the nodes receive it and wait a predefined time and send that message back, and then it waits a predefined time and pings T1 back again
[17:02] <eroomde> and then the nodes can work out their offset
[17:02] <adamgreig> ugh. trying to prove a thing using bayes rather than an MMSE minimising estimator but have a non positive definite covariance matrix so it's all awful
[17:03] <eroomde> the tricky thing was that with things like linux and other non realtime stuff you couldn't accurately say the time and be sure the network hardware would send it at the right time
[17:03] <adamgreig> ah, cute
[17:03] <adamgreig> indeed
[17:03] <eroomde> so you needed a custom (pricey) phy
[17:04] <eroomde> but now they just get round it by sending an non-specific sync packet, then asking the network controller what time on its internal clock it sent the sync, then send posteriori that time that the sync was sent
[17:05] <eroomde> and it just nicely sidesteps that need for the time to be embedded in the sync pulse
[17:05] <eroomde> super simples
[17:05] <eroomde> you do this a few times a second and the node clocks align to the master clock to within <1us
[17:05] <eroomde> tis cute
[17:05] <adamgreig> snazzy
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[17:05] <eroomde> what put me off originally was the price of 1588-compatible switches
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[17:07] <adamgreig> ugh. my covariance is singular
[17:07] <eroomde> they're only necessary for hardware timestamping (30ns-100ns sync) rather than software timestamping (1010us)
[17:08] <adamgreig> fair enough
[17:08] <adamgreig> guess if you need that kind of accuracy you pay for it
[17:08] <adamgreig> so you can't just use ntp? :P
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[17:12] <eroomde> naff off
[17:12] <eroomde> ntp is like ms of accuracy
[17:12] <eroomde> for when you sync your server with a calendar
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[17:41] <jcoxon> evening all
[17:41] <jcoxon> what are peoples thoughts on clearing hte tracker a bit
[17:41] <jcoxon> getting a bit crowded
[17:41] <eroomde> yep
[17:45] <Upu> hey jcoxon
[17:45] <Upu> we are ok to clear B-22 etc
[17:45] <Upu> I'll kill the APRS feed
[17:45] <jcoxon> hey Upu
[17:46] <Upu> ok both killed
[17:47] <Upu> done
[17:47] <Upu> afk
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[18:06] <Joel_re> this bmp085 module compensation code is pretty intense, is it possible to compensate it locally
[18:06] <Joel_re> I mean before sending it to habitat
[18:07] <Joel_re> so I recieve, apply my filters and then send via dl-fldgi
[18:08] <jcoxon> Joel_re, hmmm interesting idea
[18:08] <eroomde> that would probably involve modifying dl-fldigi
[18:08] <jcoxon> so habitat can do post processing
[18:08] <jcoxon> usually simple stuff
[18:08] <jcoxon> say scale by 10
[18:09] <jcoxon> you could chat with the habitat guys on #habhub
[18:09] <eroomde> yeah, it'd be better to do it somewhere else. havign dl-fldigi start to do numerical processing too might turn it into a bit of a dog
[18:09] <jcoxon> it would be possible but i must admit the arduino lib has always been good for me
[18:09] <eroomde> but is it really too intense to do onboard?
[18:10] <jcoxon> eroomde, the next version of dl-fldigi imports the habitat filters
[18:10] <jcoxon> dependent on the payload doc
[18:10] <eroomde> oh rightly, including arbitrary numerical processing?
[18:11] <Joel_re> eroomde: Im using the msp430g2553, trying to stuff in spi sdcard logging, uart gps parsing, onewire temp sensors, i2c pressure sensor
[18:11] <eroomde> Joel_re, yep
[18:11] <eroomde> that shouldn't even begin to break a sweat doing that
[18:11] <Joel_re> all these libs end up consuming a lot of flash and the bmp085 code does a lot of compensation with long ints
[18:12] <adamgreig> Joel_re: habitat can do the compensation but you need the temperature register from the bmp085 as well as the pressure reg
[18:12] <eroomde> how much flash do you have?
[18:12] <Joel_re> eroomde: 16KB flash and 512B ram
[18:12] <Joel_re> Im also a noob, so Im not really optimizing my code yet
[18:12] <eroomde> i mean, if there's like a big file system library, fair enough.
[18:13] <Joel_re> no fat lib
[18:13] <Joel_re> im rawwriting to the card
[18:13] <eroomde> but just talking to other things on hardware interfaces should barely tax it
[18:14] <Joel_re> right, it seems to reset randomly while trying to get pressure data as of now
[18:14] <eroomde> that sounds unhelpful
[18:14] <Joel_re> anyway that my problem, I was hoping to offload some stuff
[18:15] <Joel_re> the other part was decimal to degrees conversion for gps data
[18:15] <Joel_re> I wouldnt mind writing up scripts locally to parse it and send to habitat
[18:15] <Joel_re> I was also hoping to include gps fencing in some way
[18:15] <Joel_re> but that seems far fetched now
[18:15] <eroomde> it isn't
[18:16] <eroomde> none of this is in any way taxing for a microcontroller like that
[18:16] <eroomde> i promise
[18:16] <eroomde> have faith :)
[18:16] <eroomde> unless you're running it at like 500kHz clock speed or something...
[18:16] <Joel_re> hmm, its running at 8Mhz
[18:17] <Joel_re> the onewire code is pretty clock sensitive
[18:17] <Joel_re> and wont run at 1Mhz
[18:17] <eroomde> 8MHz should be fine
[18:19] <Joel_re> has anyone written any gps fencing code?
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[18:20] <Joel_re> I'd like to get an idea of how to go about it
[18:21] <eroomde> yes
[18:21] <eroomde> i have
[18:21] <eroomde> you can use a fun algorithm called the line crossing algorithm
[18:21] <eroomde> it's used in computer graphics a lot to tell if you're inside shape or outside a shape
[18:21] <Joel_re> ah ok, cool, Ill look
[18:21] <eroomde> i'm assuming here you want to define your 'fence' as a bunch of latitudes and longitudes, i.e. the fence posts
[18:21] <Joel_re> yes
[18:21] <eroomde> you can do much simpler things like just distance from lunch site, or something
[18:22] <eroomde> lanch*
[18:22] <eroomde> sorry, hungry
[18:22] <eroomde> launch*
[18:23] <eroomde> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_in_polygon
[18:23] <Joel_re> cool, thank!
[18:23] <Joel_re> thanks*
[18:23] <eroomde> line crossing algorithm doesn't seem to return much of oogle, i possible misremembered the name
[18:25] <Joel_re> I did find this http://ucexperiment.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/detect-gps-crossing-a-boundary-line-v2-0/
[18:26] <eroomde> sure
[18:26] <eroomde> but i'd write it yourself
[18:27] <Joel_re> yep, I'll do a read up
[18:27] <Joel_re> and write, thanks :)
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[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:28] Action: fsphil is transmitting some THOR4 on 10.131mhz
[18:28] Action: SP9UOB-Tom is not receiving it
[18:28] <fsphil> offset is 1132hz from 10.130mhz
[18:28] <fsphil> not 1000hz
[18:28] <fsphil> just measured it
[18:29] Action: DL1SGP does not seem to be receiving it either
[18:30] <fsphil> it's very low power
[18:30] <fsphil> not surprising
[18:31] <Joel_re> eroomde: http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.in/2007/09/v288-clickable-polylines-polygons.html is a nice explanation
[18:31] <DL1SGP> I hear a carrier now
[18:31] <DL1SGP> but that could be anything :D
[18:32] <eroomde> nice
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[18:40] <Maxell> nice, China clone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3XfpYxHKCo&t=1m
[18:40] <Maxell> free shipping!!
[18:41] <jarod> Maxell great those are... chinese ghost towns
[18:43] <Maxell> yea, see part one here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbDeS_mXMnM
[18:43] <Maxell> Or did you link me?
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[18:46] <arko> where does everyone here buy their balloons?
[18:46] <arko> im done with kaymont
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:49] <arko> i assume http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[18:50] <daveake> yup
[18:50] <arko> cool
[18:50] <arko> screw kaymont, they lost my order (not a cheap one at that), and now i have to delay my launch
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[18:52] <DL1SGP> Sorry to hear taht arko :(
[18:52] <arko> :/ me too
[18:53] <fsphil> hmmm.. one of my SLA batteries was reporting 3.6v
[18:53] <fsphil> hope it's not dead
[18:53] <fsphil> probably is
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[18:56] <ve6ts> fsphil: that is really low, hopefully you can get it back up
[18:56] <ve6ts> i've killed alot of batteries in my life
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[19:04] <Ballooner> Hey, does anyone know where to buy the modem compatible with the HAB modem and tracker app for android?
[19:06] <craag> Ballooner: The idea is generally that you build it.
[19:07] <craag> Have you read the wiki? http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[19:07] <fsphil> ve6ts: the charger I have seems to think its full
[19:07] <DL1SGP> the circuit required for creating the audio-in cable from your scanner/transceiver to the Tablet/Smartphone (and as far as I remember now Blackberry as well) should be on the same site as the Android HAB modem and tracker
[19:07] <DL1SGP> http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:hab_modem
[19:08] <craag> Ah, if you're jsut talking about plugging a receiver in, you want a radio receiver capable of SSB on 434MHz.
[19:08] <craag> The receiving 'modem' is in the app.
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[19:15] <fsphil> good quit message
[19:16] <DL1SGP> yeah
[19:16] <Ballooner> Ok thanks, but is there any page I can get some onformation on how to make a modem compatible with the app?
[19:17] <craag> Ballooner: Are you wanting to receive balloons?
[19:17] <craag> Or build your own balloon transmitter?
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[19:18] <Ballooner> I have already made retrieval balloons, Im interested in the transmitter thanks
[19:19] <craag> Ballooner: The HAB Modem and Tracker receives the 434MHz RTTY Telemetry that we use in the UK. Which country are you in?
[19:19] <Ballooner> The UK :)
[19:20] <craag> Ah ok! Have you received UKHAS Balloon telemetry before?
[19:21] <Ballooner> No, Its my next step, Ive made payloads which you must retrieve for the photos, but I now wish to transmit them. The GPS is easy enough, I can buy or build a module, but transmitting photos from the sattelite? I need help with that.
[19:22] <craag> Ballooner: We normally use a Radiometrix NTX2B module, there's a guide on how to link it up with an arduino here: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[19:22] <fsphil> I would work on the telemetry first. if you can do that, then move onto sending images
[19:23] <daveake> +1
[19:23] <Ballooner> thanks, is there any way to link it up to a raspberry pi instead of a microcontroller?
[19:23] <daveake> same circuit
[19:23] <daveake> use the Serial Tx line on the GPIO connector
[19:23] <ve6ts> Ballooner i looked at using a raspberry, issue i had was power comsumption
[19:24] <Ballooner> I can get a large battery, I can also minimise consumption by shutting off RAM. I can code some Linux.
[19:24] <craag> shutting off RAM??
[19:24] <Ballooner> Not size large, large in capacity
[19:24] <daveake> shutting off RAM????
[19:24] <Ballooner> Yes, making it inaccessible to the computer
[19:25] <daveake> Nope
[19:25] <craag> Erm..... wat
[19:25] <Upu> this should be interesting
[19:25] <Ballooner> wait lemme give you a link
[19:25] Action: craag gets the popcorn..
[19:25] Action: Upu passes craag some of his
[19:25] Action: mfa298 gets some beers
[19:25] <craag> cheers Upu !
[19:26] Action: daveake remembers the microwave has food
[19:26] Action: SP9UOB-Tom has a terrible headache
[19:26] <Ballooner> http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=33159
[19:26] <DL1SGP> same here Tom
[19:26] <Ballooner> http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/07/02/reducing-power-consumption-of-a-raspberry-pi
[19:27] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP: i think there is time for some painkiller drug
[19:27] <Upu> use a model A Ballooner
[19:27] <Ballooner> I meant dedicating RAM to the task, reducing the amount of RAM avilable to other processes
[19:27] <Ballooner> I would, but I only have a model B
[19:27] <Ballooner> Im keeping cost to a min
[19:27] <craag> Ballooner: There are ways to reduce power consumption (see http://www.daveakerman.com/?page_id=1294 )
[19:27] Action: mfa298 finds no reference to ram in those links
[19:28] <craag> But really, for a first tracker, you should use gps + arduino + ntx2b in my oponion
[19:28] <craag> *opinion
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[19:28] <mfa298> Ballooner: if you don't have the pi cam yet you can get the Model A and Picam for around £30 from cpc.
[19:28] <ve6ts> i also recommend starting small and working your way up, i have 20 launches under my belt
[19:28] <mfa298> there's some info on the ukhas wiki about the pi http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:raspberrypi
[19:29] <Ballooner> Thanks and all, but all I want to know is how to transmit photos from a raspberry pi model B to a ground station
[19:29] <Ballooner> Thx
[19:29] <DL1SGP> SP9UOB-Tom: I have nothing in the house other than a few bottles of wine which would certainly help first but then ruin it the next day
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[19:29] <daveake> Ballooner Those links are nothing to do with RAM
[19:30] <ve6ts> Ballooner what res of photo are you trying to transmit? the mode will depend on the quality
[19:30] <mfa298> daveake: was it a Model B you used initially - which then overheated ?
[19:30] <daveake> 3 rules for low power on the Pi: 1 use a model A, 2 use a good LDO or a switching reg, 3 switch HDMI of
[19:30] <Ballooner> ik, the RAM was a seperate issue, I already explained I meant dedicating RAM to a specific program limiting the avilability for other processes
[19:30] <daveake> off
[19:31] <daveake> mfa298 Yes
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[19:31] <craag> Ballooner: What does that achieve?
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[19:31] <daveake> Ballooner You can't turn the RAM off; if you did the Pi would stop. There is NO effective power saving on the Pi other than switching off the HDMI output
[19:31] <fsphil> even that's only about 10mw
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[19:31] <daveake> more ... 15mA IIRC
[19:32] <daveake> so about 50mW
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[19:32] <fsphil> ah yes, ma not mw
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[19:32] <Ballooner> Its not particuarly effective no, but every mah counts, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-External-Flashlight-Thunderbolt-Incredible/dp/B005NFOA0S/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1383334338&sr=8-3&keywords=external+battery
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[19:33] <craag> Ballooner: It wouldn't reduce power consumption at all....
[19:33] <mfa298> Ballooner: if every mah counts get the model A (if you've not got the Pi cam yet it will only cost you about £10 for the model A) - that saves a lot of power
[19:34] <Ballooner> ok thanks, but that aside, power isnt an issue for me, what about the transmitting?
[19:34] <fsphil> it's as effective as homeopathy
[19:34] <mfa298> Ballooner: also check the specs on your batteries, a lot of rechargeable batteries are known for not working very well at -40C
[19:35] <ve6ts> Ballooner what resolution of image are you trying to transmit? a low res tv signal is alot different then say an HD image
[19:35] <craag> Ballooner: See the NTX2 link I gave you earlier. But really Pics is a second step, do a flight with a real tracker first!
[19:35] <mfa298> Ballooner: and power is an issue:
[19:35] <mfa298> 19:30 < mfa298> daveake: was it a Model B you used initially - which then overheated ?
[19:35] <mfa298> 19:31 < daveake> mfa298 Yes
[19:35] <fsphil> and make sure you've applied for permission to launch the CAA -- it's a requirement in the UK
[19:36] <fsphil> from the*
[19:36] <mfa298> higer power - like the model B will potentially overheat itself unless you do a lot of work to keep it cool
[19:36] <daveake> Launching the CAA sounds like a good plan
[19:36] <fsphil> it does
[19:36] <daveake> the model B is a mad idea for a tracker
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[19:38] <mfa298> Ballooner: Listen to daveake he's the master of sending Pi's to near space!
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[19:40] <fsphil> near near space
[19:41] <daveake> closer to earth than space
[19:42] <mfa298> at least I didn't say to space ;)
[19:42] <x-f_> environment closer to mars than earth
[19:42] <daveake> :)
[19:42] <fsphil> yea it's very mars like
[19:42] <fsphil> near-Mars we should call it
[19:42] <Ballooner> ok, I understand the model A is better, but in principle, how do I transmit? Im kind of a newbie to transmitting in general
[19:42] <mfa298> Ballooner: read the ukhas wiki links given earlier
[19:43] <craag> Ballooner: With the link I sent you earlier
[19:43] <ve6ts> fsphil i like calling it near mars, might have to do that
[19:43] <mfa298> There is a *lot* of good information on the ukhas wiki
[19:43] <craag> Ballooner: Here it is again: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[19:43] <mfa298> Ballooner: and also http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:raspberrypi
[19:48] <Ballooner> daveake: so is it worthwhile using the raspberry pi model A, or should I go with Arduino>
[19:49] <daveake> Unless you have to send images, Arduino is better
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[19:50] <ve6ts> Ballooner Arduino is much easier
[19:50] <Ballooner> But I do have to send images
[19:50] <craag> +1 for Arduino! At least as a first step.
[19:50] <daveake> have to?
[19:51] <ve6ts> Ballooner what resolution of images?
[19:51] <Ballooner> Yes, thats my entire point of the project
[19:51] <Ballooner> 5MP
[19:51] <Upu> Arduino with a Canon A560
[19:51] <ve6ts> Ballooner 5MP will not transmit over narrow band RF modes
[19:51] <mfa298> sending 5MP live isn't going to work well
[19:51] <nats`> hi
[19:51] <craag> Sending 5MP images isn't really feasible on the UK system.
[19:51] <daveake> You want to send 5MP images?
[19:51] <ve6ts> it could take a month for 1 image
[19:51] <daveake> You'll need to fly it for about a week
[19:52] <ve6ts> Ballooner do what i do, track it and pick up the image after landing
[19:52] <Ballooner> is there any way I could send 5MP images, without picking up the images after landing?
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[19:53] <fsphil> no
[19:53] <mfa298> not in the UK - unless you invest in some specialist radio kit and experimental licenses
[19:53] <daveake> And why 5MP?
[19:54] <Ballooner> I need decent quality
[19:54] <daveake> clouds are fluffy
[19:54] <Ballooner> And thats the quality of the rasp pi camera I have
[19:54] <mikestir> and megapixels != quality
[19:54] <mfa298> for live images in the UK 816x528 is probably around the largest people normally send, and that takes several minutes to send
[19:55] <fsphil> 10 minutes at least
[19:55] <fsphil> 4 minutes for 384x288-ish
[19:55] <fsphil> but it is variable
[19:56] <ve6ts> fsphil are you talking transmission ontop of rtty?
[19:56] <fsphil> yea
[19:56] <Ballooner> I can deal with send time up to 1 hour
[19:56] <daveake> I doubt it
[19:56] <fsphil> your balloon will be on the ground before you've got half it :)
[19:56] <Ballooner> daveake: How did you do your transmitting flight then?
[19:56] <daveake> your flight will have landed by then
[19:56] <mfa298> with send time of 1 hour if you're lucky you'll get one picture whilst it's still on the ground and one at altitude
[19:57] <daveake> I send smaller images
[19:57] <fsphil> the first images sent where all 320x240
[19:58] <fsphil> that gives a fairly decent number of images from the flight
[19:58] <daveake> Yes, IMO aim for 5-10 mins per image so you get say 20 good images
[19:58] <mfa298> Ballooner: this is a *large* image that was sent back from a flight http://ssdv.habhub.org/images/2013-04-13--16-15-00-PIE5-A3.jpeg and would have taken a number of minutes to send
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[19:58] <fsphil> that's the largest image sent during a flight
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[19:58] <Ballooner> ok so heres the thing: Im hoping to make an orbital satellite using Makey Makey and arduino to remotely ignite a rocket after launch. Obviously this is near impossible, so Im hoping to make multiple atmoshpheric flights first.
[19:59] <Ballooner> Thats why I'd be fine with 1 hour send times
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[19:59] <craag> hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
[19:59] <craag> sorry
[19:59] <daveake> I'm hoping you don't ignite anything other than your imaginatio
[19:59] <daveake> n
[20:00] <mfa298> for a satallite you may still want it to send slower unless it's in a geostationary orbit.
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[20:00] <Upu> we got a live one here ... :)
[20:01] <Upu> at least you found your way here Ballooner
[20:01] <chrisstubbs> Do you think DM would have a problem with a launch window of 2 months?
[20:01] <daveake> Suggestion: read the wiki, make an arduino tracker, fly that
[20:02] <craag> Ballooner: Launching something into orbit is a serious endeavour. You're not going to manage it without a good space agency behind you.
[20:02] <fsphil> you can but try chrisstubbs. I suspect he will though
[20:02] <ve6ts> Ballooner you may want to see my website as well for information on large and micro balloons as well: http://arawr.ca
[20:02] <fsphil> (will have issues)
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[20:02] <daveake> after that you'll gave a much better idea about what's possible
[20:02] <chrisstubbs> Thinking of launching in december but there is the problem of people not being availible to help
[20:02] <ve6ts> Ballooner note that my stuff all uses amateur radio, which i believe you cannot use in the UK, but the payloads and camera stuff applies to everywhere.
[20:02] <daveake> and by possible I mean legally, practically, and within your capabilities
[20:02] <Ballooner> I told you, its near impossible. Clearly all anyone picked up on was the idea itself. Its about the theory. So theoretically, what MP would equate to 1 hour send time?
[20:02] <daveake> calculate it
[20:03] <daveake> hint: highest practical baud rate is probably 600 baud
[20:03] <fsphil> make a jpeg of the resolution you're after, and calculate from the size how long it would take to send at 600 bits per second
[20:04] <ve6ts> Ballooner if you can transmit 100 bits/sec and you need to transmit 1MP, it would take 1M / 100 (seconds)
[20:04] <mfa298> and it will then take a bit longer as you'll want to add some FEC, checksums etc
[20:04] <ve6ts> Ballooner then you need to account for how big a pixel is (so color will be more
[20:05] <daveake> answer is about 1 day
[20:05] <fsphil> yikes
[20:05] <ve6ts> yikes, i think the battery would be dead first
[20:05] <mfa298> Ballooner: what area of the UK are you in, you might find there's someone local that can show you some of what happens during a flight.
[20:06] <mikestir> Ballooner: why not transmit the images at low res and store them at full res, then you at least get something if you can't recover the memory card
[20:06] <Ballooner> I live in London, but Im doing the launch in Wilshire
[20:08] <mfa298> there's a few people around london (although I don't think any are active at the moment)
[20:08] <Ballooner> I checked out those links, but neither described how to transmit photos with the raspberrypi. Instead, it just stated how useless it was
[20:08] <mfa298> for sending images we using something called ssdv
[20:08] <ve6ts> mikestir excellent idea
[20:09] <daveake> that's what I do
[20:09] <Ballooner> Anyway, I know Im getting annoying know, so Ill stop typing, any ;inks would be appreciated
[20:09] <mfa298> which takes a jpeg in and generates a file with packets of data to send.
[20:10] <mfa298> Ballooner: best thing is to start off just getting something to send text data (for a balloon that would normally be telemetry data)
[20:10] <mfa298> once you can send and receive the data you can look at sending image data instead of telemetry.
[20:10] <mfa298> what coding experience do you have so far ?
[20:11] <Ballooner> Linux, bit of python, and ofc useless stuff like HTML and CSS
[20:12] <mfa298> Linux as in writing python scripts on linux
[20:12] <mfa298> or Linux as in writing kernel code.
[20:12] <Ballooner> yeah, pretty much
[20:12] <Ballooner> Bit of both, I mess around with the console a lot
[20:13] <mfa298> messing around with consle != writing kernel code (which would generally be in C)
[20:14] <mfa298> it's quite possible to do this stuff in python.
[20:15] <mfa298> the http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2 page describes how to connect an ntx2 transmitter to a gpio (the required bit of electronics)
[20:15] <Ballooner> Would that work with a rp? With a bit of modifiying ofc
[20:16] <mfa298> on the Pi you use the UART TX pin rather than a normal gpio pin, and then get the UART to send the data
[20:16] <daveake> Like I said, you use the serial Tx pin
[20:16] <mfa298> if you want telemetry as well you'de need a gps chip on there as well (which makes things a bit more interesting)
[20:17] <fsphil> interesting in an annoying way
[20:17] <Ballooner> anyway, I gtg
[20:18] <mfa298> or you could try interesting things with C, threads, gpio pins, process scheduling.
[20:18] <fsphil> or dma
[20:18] <mfa298> but that's not begginer stuff
[20:18] <Ballooner> If I manage to make a satellite (probably not) I will announce it on this thread
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[20:18] <daveake> can't wait for that
[20:19] <ve6ts> hehe :)
[20:19] <daveake> he need a rocket
[20:19] <daveake> up his arse
[20:19] <ve6ts> i asked him 3 times about the resolution of the photos, i knew he was trying to send a hudge pic
[20:19] <ve6ts> he was completely ignoring me
[20:19] <daveake> he wasn't really listeninig
[20:20] <ve6ts> someone like that needs to go with someone else who has done it
[20:20] <ve6ts> u cannot do this alone even if you have a premade payload
[20:20] <Upu> some back ground reading doesn't go amiss either
[20:21] <ve6ts> true, that is how people contact me all of the time, because there is very little documentation on the rules for balloons in Canada
[20:21] <ve6ts> they at least "googled" it
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[20:21] Nick change: BrainDamage1 -> BrainDamage
[20:22] <ve6ts> simular to: I want to build a rocket to fly to the moon, but i don't know anything about rockets, computers or the flight rules
[20:22] <daveake> followed by "gimme designz and codez"
[20:22] Action: ve6ts ponders calling himself a balloon scientist
[20:22] <mfa298> I pretty much knew what he was going to say about programming skills from what he'd said earlier about programming Linux.
[20:22] <ve6ts> daveake hehe
[20:23] <daveake> yes he fell into your kernel trap :p
[20:23] <fsphil> and paniced
[20:24] <daveake> :)
[20:24] <ve6ts> i love the idea of taking a copy of the large image, scaling it down, then transmit that on the radio. Never thought of that before
[20:25] <ve6ts> might build one of those for next summers launch
[20:26] <mfa298> if only I had some HAB kernel code - although that might have scared him away.
[20:26] <ve6ts> hehe
[20:26] <daveake> What I do is take 1 large image (5MB), then pause 15s, then take a small (800x500 ish) image, pause 15s, and repeat
[20:26] <mfa298> especially the pain you have to go through to get kernel headers to compile kernel modules on the pi.
[20:27] <daveake> Seperately the tx program chooses the largest recent jpeg from the smaller ones, sends that and moves them all to another folder so it all starts again
[20:27] <ve6ts> daveake i might even use 2 cameras, a cheap one for the live image and a good one for the stored image
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[20:27] <daveake> Well the pi cam is both cheap and good
[20:28] <ve6ts> daveake ah the best of both worlds
[20:28] <mfa298> but you can onlt have one of them on the pi.
[20:28] <daveake> It'll take the small images directly (the GPU does the resizing for you)
[20:28] <ve6ts> that is handy
[20:28] <daveake> yes only 1 per pi with the current pi
[20:28] <fsphil> my previous flights have used a small 320x240 camera for the live images
[20:29] <fsphil> and a canon for the good ones
[20:29] <ve6ts> we use mostly canons now
[20:29] <ve6ts> usually buy used ones
[20:29] <mfa298> although with the pi cam being "cheap and good" there's not much need for a 2nd cam for just doing stills
[20:29] <daveake> yeah £20-£30 gets you an excellent little canon
[20:30] <daveake> maybe a 2nd cam for a separate view if you want to capture the burst
[20:30] <ve6ts> we have never lost a camera, but we have dunked them in water before on landing :(
[20:30] <ve6ts> i love the burst, i have some great video of that
[20:30] <fsphil> I've lost three :/
[20:31] <ve6ts> fsphil how many launches have you done?
[20:31] <fsphil> 6
[20:31] <ve6ts> i have done 15 with GPS and 5 with no gps
[20:31] <mfa298> a 2nd picam would also be nice so you could have one doing video and one stills.
[20:31] <ve6ts> lost all 5 with no gps (also no camera / etc)
[20:31] <fsphil> two picam's would be lovely
[20:31] <fsphil> my recovery rate is about 50%
[20:31] <ve6ts> do you usually loose to the ocean?
[20:32] <fsphil> so far ocean, and yorkshire
[20:32] <ve6ts> that is why i love the praries, no people around only 1 angry farmer so far (who said he wanted to shoot us for tresspassing)
[20:33] <ve6ts> he happened to be driving by, we were along ways from any houses or paved roads - it wasn't even a field with crops in it, only grass
[20:34] <fsphil> he needs a better fence
[20:34] <ve6ts> or a no tresspassing sign
[20:34] <fsphil> not that any of these defences would have helped you
[20:34] <ve6ts> hehe :)
[20:35] <ve6ts> one balloon we had to walk in a field for 1 hour each way from the nearest road to recover our UFO :)
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[20:36] <mfa298> 790 on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/YAESU-FT790R-MULTIMODE-TRANSCEIVER-430-MHz-70-CMS-/171162792898
[20:36] <mfa298> £60 althoguh 8 days to go so will probably go up
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[21:17] <WillTablet> Hi
[21:17] <fsphil> Altitude
[21:18] <arko> five
[21:18] <mclane> daveake: in your pi trackers, did you connect the ublox gps via i2c?
[21:18] <WillTablet> Wish I'd seen this in time http://touch.groupon.com/deals/g1mm-it-university-online-central-jersey
[21:22] <mfa298> mclane: I believe he used i2c on some of them but you might have to bitbang it as the pi i2c didn't support features the ublox used
[21:22] <daveake> yes, s/w i2c
[21:23] <mclane> what does it mean "bitbang"?
[21:23] <mfa298> WillTablet: you don't want cisco, they do things backwards
[21:24] <WillTablet> mfa298 interesting, how?
[21:24] <mfa298> plus I think for cisco certs you've got to keep doing the exams every few years to keep it current
[21:24] <mfa298> the like things like host masks.
[21:25] <mfa298> so I allow traffic for 192.168.1.0 0.0.0.255, rather than 255.255.255.0
[21:25] <mfa298> which get's more interesting when you use something that's not a /8, /16 or /24
[21:26] <mfa298> to learn cisco (or any networking on that scale) properly you really also need the kit to play with.
[21:26] <mfa298> which costs $$$$
[21:26] <WillTablet> Which I won't be able to afford
[21:26] <WillTablet> At least until I get £10 a week pocket money.
[21:27] <mfa298> you might be saving for quite a while with £10/week
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> arko, I got something for you
[21:27] <WillTablet> I decided that to replace a normal childhood, which I don't, will not and can not have that I will try my best to do things that look good on a CV
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> and I assume you will be happy about it
[21:27] <arko> ?
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> arko, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOhCF8YhWgY
[21:28] <mfa298> my Cisco ADSL router 2nd hand on ebay cost at least as much (probably more) than a standard adsl router.
[21:28] <mfa298> new I think it would have cost at least £300
[21:29] <WillTablet> Wow
[21:29] <WillTablet> Not really worth it then
[21:30] <arko> Lunar_Lander: nicee
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
[21:30] <mfa298> Cisco kit is really nice if you know how to use it and there are some nice features in some of their kit, but you pay for it, and a lot of it only makes sense for big enterprise.
[21:31] <mfa298> a more generic networking course is likely to be of more interest,
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[21:33] <WillTablet> Yeah, I just need something to do also, I get really bored all the time and networking seems quite interesting
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> arko, video actually has an error :)
[21:37] <WillTablet> mfa298 it's probably not particularly worthwhile to do it.
[21:37] <WillTablet> Probably highly specific and Cisco-only oriented.
[21:37] <mfa298> there's a lot of stuff you can learn in networking.
[21:38] <mfa298> if you get into it in detail it's more than a full time job.
[21:38] <WillTablet> I think I'll start with learning the basics and get something like Networking for dummies
[21:38] <mfa298> something more generic would probably be a better place to start
[21:39] <WillTablet> I'm actually talking to someone in #lgbteens about it. He's doing the ccna course with them and he has no Cisco equipment whatsoever
[21:39] <mfa298> Computer Networks by Tanenbaum usually comes highly recommended.
[21:41] <WillTablet> Library has one missing copy
[21:41] <WillTablet> I think someone is deliberately losing all the boobs that I wank
[21:41] <WillTablet> Oh crap
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[21:42] <WillTablet> Haha
[21:42] <WillTablet> *books
[21:42] <WillTablet> *want
[21:42] <WillTablet> I was typing without looking
[21:42] <cm13g09> WillTablet: that's some typo :P
[21:42] <daveake> lol
[21:42] <WillTablet> Yup
[21:42] Action: cm13g09 frames it
[21:43] <Reb-SM3ULC> mfa298: Tanenbaums are great
[21:43] <WillTablet> One used on amazon
[21:43] <WillTablet> Can't go too wrong for £4.59
[21:44] <mfa298> looking at one of the sylabuses for ccna there's quite a bit of stuff in there (STP, EIGRP and OSPF, IPv4 and IPv6, SNMP, syslog, netflow )
[21:45] <Reb-SM3ULC>
[21:45] <Reb-SM3ULC> mmm
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> hej Reb-SM3ULC
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[21:45] <Reb-SM3ULC> /me recomends also http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Networking-James-Kurose-Keith/dp/0273768964
[21:45] <Reb-SM3ULC> wtf
[21:45] <Reb-SM3ULC> The rum is not helping
[21:46] <WillTablet> mfa298 there might even be a local college that has a course for it
[21:47] <Reb-SM3ULC> Lunar_Lander: Good evening!
[21:48] <WillTablet> Also, I have most of my savings tied up in a quite large >£1k loan to my parents so I should be able to convince them to, when I get it back, use some of it to pay for a ccna or similar course
[21:48] <mfa298> wow, my Tanenbaum is only 2 editions out of date, I was expecting it to be further out
[21:48] <WillTablet> How many are there?
[21:48] <mfa298> for networking stuff it helps a lot to have equipment to play with.
[21:49] <mfa298> Mine's 3rd edition, looks like it's now up to 5th edition
[21:50] <Ben_L_1> Ok, so my radiometrix ntx2 and nrx2 is in the mail.
[21:50] <Ben_L_1> what's everyone using for antennas?
[21:50] <Ben_L_1> 433 mhz
[21:50] <WillTablet> Nrx2?
[21:50] <WillTablet> What for?
[21:50] <Ben_L_1> it has to be able to receive data
[21:50] <mfa298> Ben_L_1: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payloadantenna
[21:50] <WillTablet> Ah OK
[21:51] <Ben_L_1> oh... it's in the guide... thanks
[21:51] <mfa298> nrx2 might not do that well at recieving data from a hab,
[21:51] <WillTablet> mfa298, yeah that's probably true. There is a guy I know though with no Cisco equipment
[21:51] <WillTablet> Is it worth getting the 3rd edition?
[21:52] <WillTablet> Or should I shell out for a brand new 5th?
[21:52] <Ben_L_1> the nrx2 will be on the balloon. both ntx2 and nrx2 will be on the balloon...
[21:52] <mfa298> if you're buying it it's worth getting the latest edition you can.
[21:52] <mfa298> or try getting it from a library
[21:52] <Ben_L_1> we have to have a "kill signal" capability
[21:52] <mfa298> Ben_L_1: ah right, I think I remember you talking about it before
[21:52] <Ben_L_1> ya...
[21:54] <Reb-SM3ULC> WillTablet: I recommend a networking course from a colloge. Cisco edu stuff is almost allways "the cisco way" and a lot of noise.
[21:54] <mfa298> WillTablet: when you're doing stuff with things like ospf it's a lot easier to see whats happening when you have a set of routers and you can unplug links and see what happens
[21:55] <WillTablet> Mhm. A college would likely be offering a Cisco/Ms/one of those sponsored qualification
[21:55] <DL7AD_> evening...
[21:55] <Reb-SM3ULC> WillTablet: back in the days there was almost only ciso stuff out there but these days with juniper/brocade/ is another thing
[21:55] <DL7AD_> ah damn.... still no new balloon
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[21:58] <WillTablet> mfa298 there are some copies on worldcat
[21:59] <WillTablet> Interlibrary loans are costly though
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[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> hey DL7AD_
[21:59] <DL7AD_> hey Lunar_Lander :D
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[21:59] Nick change: BrainDamage1 -> BrainDamage
[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:00] <DL7AD_> all my boards have been flown away Lunar_Lander...
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> to Russia!
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:00] <WillTablet> £90 cheapest
[22:00] <mfa298> looking at the contents in my 3rd Edition it covers a few dated things although there's plenty of relevant stuff still
[22:01] <DL7AD_> 90 pounds for what?
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[22:04] <DL7AD_> hm...
[22:04] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> it's amazing that Aspartam (the stuff in Coke Zero) has a mesomeric twin
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> there is just one group that is mirrored
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> and that makes it taste bitter and not sweet
[22:05] <WillTablet> mfa298 they are quite different I think
[22:05] <WillTablet> Found a PDF of 5th
[22:05] <WillTablet> Says it covers a lot of stuff like wireless networks, VoIP etc
[22:06] <WillTablet> I feel guilty pirating it, but it's sorta my only option
[22:06] <mfa298> 4th Edition looks like it might be reasonable looking at the list on amazon
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[22:07] <WillTablet> Mhm
[22:08] <WillTablet> I could get an old edition then read the new bits in a pdf
[22:10] <mfa298> randomly I think the 3rd edition doesn't have much about wireless, but does cover IPv6.
[22:13] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
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[22:18] <WillTablet> Will get the fourth and then read the PDF of the fifth
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[23:01] <Laurenceb__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKHz7wOjb9w
[23:02] <cm13g09> mfa298: that was worth posting, right?
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> Valveless pulsejets are cool.
[23:03] <mfa298> cm13g09: I see that you "framed it"
[23:03] <eroomde> i helped test a jet bike at work
[23:03] <eroomde> http://youtu.be/AMJRCkZYx5g?t=1m17s
[23:03] <cm13g09> mfa298: indeed ;)
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Lacks maniacal laughter.
[23:04] <eroomde> oh it has it
[23:05] <eroomde> it's just about 60dB quieter than the afterbuner
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> What's the thrust?
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[23:06] Action: SpeedEvil wishes small jet engines were better.
[23:06] <Willdude123_> mfa298 ordered the fourth edition of Computer Networks by Tenenbaum. It does look very comprehensive
[23:07] <Laurenceb__> someone made a proper electric scooter
[23:07] <Laurenceb__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPeGEtIuzpQ
[23:07] <Laurenceb__> need MOAR lipos
[23:07] <eroomde> don't remember he wants 450mph
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: 'lots' :)
[23:09] <cm13g09> Willdude123_: I wish I'd rememberd I have a copy
[23:09] <cm13g09> you could've had it
[23:09] <cm13g09> then again I suppose it might come in useful one day....
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[23:10] <mfa298> I'm tempted to get a 4th edition to join my 3rd edition
[23:10] <Willdude123_> cm13g09 what edition?
[23:10] <Willdude123_> *which
[23:10] <mfa298> not sure I want to spend lots of money on the latest 5th edition
[23:10] <cm13g09> fifth
[23:11] <Willdude123_> cm13g09: I could cancel the order if you're willing to give it to me
[23:12] <mfa298> at least looking at amazon for tanenbaun it reminded me of the book and cd I wanted to look for.
[23:12] <cm13g09> Willdude123_: seem to remember I paid for it...
[23:13] <cm13g09> so I'm not exactly going to give it away
[23:14] <Willdude123_> Of course
[23:14] <Willdude123_> I may as well get the 4th edition of amazon
[23:14] <Willdude123_> Was a good price anyway
[23:14] <cm13g09> depends how much you're paying for it?
[23:14] <Willdude123_> £12.77
[23:14] <cm13g09> yeah
[23:15] <cm13g09> stick with 4th ;)
[23:15] <Willdude123_> And I can read a PDF of the fifth that I have
[23:15] <Willdude123_> How much did you pay?
[23:15] <cm13g09> I think it was about £50 for a copy
[23:15] <cm13g09> and it's literally unused
[23:15] <Willdude123_> You didn't want to read it then?
[23:23] <Willdude123_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate
[23:27] <arko> "The debate has sometimes been considered a flame war."
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[23:27] <arko> Understatement of the century
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[23:28] <mfa298> from the little ive read it look like it could be an interesting thing
[23:28] <mfa298> although I fear it could be a standard Torvalds set of replies if you look at the original stuff
[23:28] <chrisstubbs> DM is a hacker?
[23:29] <mfa298> and for '92 there seems to be a good point of favouring the older processors for something that students could hack on.
[23:30] <mfa298> my first pc was a 2nd hand 8086 based system which I got around '95
[23:30] <mfa298> the popular Amstrad 1512
[23:32] <mfa298> lol: "Of course 5 years from now that will be different, but 5 years from now everyone will be running free GNU on their 200 MIPS, 64M SPARCstation-5."
[23:33] <mfa298> I did try running Gnu/Linux on a SPARCstation-2, it wasn't a pleasant experience.
[23:34] <mfa298> although slightly better than trying to get GNU/Linux working on an SGI Indigio 2
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[23:43] <Laurenceb__> when i was an undergrad all programming assignments were on SPARCstations
[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> the computers which almost killed sparkfun?
[23:44] <Laurenceb__> whole physics dept was on Sun thin clients
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[23:44] <Laurenceb__> because no fan noise to distract :P
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[23:46] <Laurenceb__> http://www.eej.ulst.ac.uk/~ian/modules/EEE348J2%282k8%29/files/saber_elktr_vb_book.pdf
[23:46] <WillTablet> I love the feeling of saying something on #highaltitude, forgetting about it and then going to #LGBTeens and getting bored of the conversation there and coming back to find my link provoked some very interesting discussion
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[23:46] <WillTablet> I don't really understand what it was about
[23:47] <WillTablet> Did it result in personal attacks?
[23:48] <mfa298> I don't know about that instance. But other bits I've seen about Torvalds seem to suggest he's good at attacking people who don't agree with him.
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[23:49] <mfa298> although my impression could be biased as I've only seen a few articles that have made the IT news.
[23:49] <Laurenceb__> hes always seemed reasonable to me
[23:50] <WillTablet> So was the idea of microkernels to promote development by students of drivers and other such stuff?
[23:50] <mfa298> often with a debate like the microkernel vs monolithic kernel stuff there isn't a right answer, the real key part is to have thought about why you're doing and can show that you've chosen a route for a reason.
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[23:51] <Laurenceb__> heh
[23:51] <Laurenceb__> flamewarzzzz
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[23:51] <mfa298> I'd guess Tanenbaun was using minix as a platform for teaching his students about OS design. At which point being able to run it on something that can be obtained cheaply is good.
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[23:53] <mfa298> When I was a Uni student I had a P3 system as my main PC, but then various 486's I'd got cheaply (a few quid each) that I could use to experiment with things on.
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[23:54] <WillTablet> Linus does sound like he was being a bit of a twat some of the time
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[23:59] <mfa298> Laurenceb__: thanks for that link, I think I'd pretty much got to the point of purging VB from my brain (only taken 10+ years)
[23:59] <Laurenceb__> troll link :P
[00:00] --- Sat Nov 2 2013