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[03:28] <Ben_L_> Ok, I'm in the US and I want to buy a Radiometrix NTX2 and NRX2, who do I contact?
[03:29] <wd8mnv> i'd guess from upu
[03:29] <Darkside> very good question
[03:30] <Darkside> that i don't know the answer to :P
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[04:10] <heathkid> buy from upu
[04:10] <heathkid> that's your answer
[04:11] <heathkid> Radiometrix = Upu
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[06:56] <jarod> 4 go around in a row at Shiphol now
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[06:58] <ibanezmatt13> that's interesting jarod, just watching now. How come?
[06:58] <jarod> WIND!
[06:58] <jarod> http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/6561-Storm-fun-at-EHAM-Amsterdam-Schiphol-Airport
[06:58] <ibanezmatt13> wow
[06:59] <ibanezmatt13> EHAM 280655Z 20031G46KT 9999 FEW022 SCT029 16/12 Q0985 NOSIG
[07:00] <ibanezmatt13> Low pressure, 46 knot winds. I wouldn't like to be that KLM 777 captain landing today...
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[07:01] <jarod> 747 also landing on a 2014m runway :D
[07:01] <ibanezmatt13> surely that's not big enough!
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[07:02] <jarod> it landed!
[07:03] <ibanezmatt13> jesus
[07:04] <ibanezmatt13> looks like it's gone of the end of the runway
[07:04] <ibanezmatt13> oh wait, it's taking off :P
[07:04] <jarod> :P
[07:06] <Hix> There's quite a bit of stuff flying here. Most of it is supposed to be terrestrial though
[07:07] <ibanezmatt13> where you at Hix?
[07:07] <Hix> London[ish]
[07:07] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[07:07] <Hix> not looking forward to driving on a motorway in these winds
[07:08] <ibanezmatt13> it's perfectly still up here
[07:08] <ibanezmatt13> the storm forceast looked like it was going to miss us
[07:09] <DL1SGP1> we got new storm warnings as well after it calmed down over night, rel pressure even climbed back up to 1000hPa and now is down to 991.7
[07:09] <DL1SGP1> good morning :)
[07:10] <Hix> 975mb here
[07:10] <jarod> KLM 1762 second go around... now offered to try 18R
[07:14] <Relman> is this one lost
[07:14] <Relman> http://www.flightradar24.com/DLH6PF
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[07:14] <jarod> lost? normal holding :)
[07:15] <Relman> its meant to be in rome
[07:15] <Relman> not london
[07:15] <Relman> or something
[07:15] <Relman> its like its been to germany already or something
[07:15] <Relman> odd
[07:15] <jarod> ah route error, they are common
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[07:22] <ibanezmatt13> morning eroomde
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[07:23] <eroomde> morning ibanezmatt13
[07:24] <ibanezmatt13> Has anybody got much experience with SD cards?
[07:26] <ibanezmatt13> I tested with my multimeter yesterday and two sides of capacitors C1 and C2 are shorting with the SD socket itself. Just wondered if that was why it wasn't working
[07:26] <ibanezmatt13> http://pasteboard.co/P97nAdd.png
[07:26] <jarod> http://www.flightradar24.com/KLM1662 failed to do what ATC wanted :)
[07:27] <ibanezmatt13> ah ha, I've spotted a short on two of the sd pins!
[07:28] <Upu> oops
[07:28] Action: Upu ducks
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[07:28] <ibanezmatt13> lol
[07:29] <DL1SGP1> hehe Upu, what is your antenna status?
[07:29] <ibanezmatt13> well actually Upu, one of those two pins isn't connected to anything
[07:29] <ibanezmatt13> So probably not the issue
[07:30] <ibanezmatt13> Hey Upu, got that sensor working. Only the SD card which is defunct now
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[07:35] <oh1jcs_> Someone has spotted your balloons. :) Viodeolinks on a finnish newspapersite: http://www.iltalehti.fi/iltvuutiset/20131027031936255_v0.shtml
[07:36] <Upu> DL1SGP1 the storm totally missed
[07:36] <Upu> its just wet outside
[07:36] <Upu> so fine :)
[07:36] <Upu> ibanezmatt13 sorry I thought I'd got all the pins
[07:37] <ibanezmatt13> I can't see it being a problem. Can't work out why it won't work though
[07:37] <eroomde> it wasn't that violent in ox either
[07:37] <Upu> glad its not just me
[07:37] <Upu> I keep reading the news saying how bad it is and its just a bit damp outside
[07:37] <eroomde> i did hear it much stronger during the night
[07:37] <eroomde> but it's just a bit blowy here now
[07:38] <Upu> not even that here
[07:38] <Upu> sometimes depending which way it comes from (North) we can be sheltered here
[07:38] <Upu> but any other direction and its usually bad
[07:40] <eroomde> i feel like this week could be a good week to hack on some stuff
[07:40] <eroomde> no idea what though
[07:40] <eroomde> it's a quitter one at work
[07:40] <eroomde> quieter*
[07:41] <ibanezmatt13> we can design a small rocket to send a NORB board on :P
[07:42] <ibanezmatt13> that would be cool
[07:43] <eroomde> how long until you get your UKRA level 1, i wonder...
[07:43] <eroomde> you might be able to get it before me!
[07:43] <ibanezmatt13> lol yeah. :)
[07:47] <eroomde> are you on 0.5term atm?
[07:47] <ibanezmatt13> yp
[07:47] <ibanezmatt13> yup*
[07:47] <eroomde> nice
[07:47] <eroomde> quality needing time
[07:47] <eroomde> nerding*
[07:48] <ibanezmatt13> lol
[07:49] <eroomde> the skies have gone blue in the last 10 mins
[07:49] <eroomde> nice light
[07:49] <ibanezmatt13> grey over here but still
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[07:51] <eroomde> sure but you're in The North
[07:51] <ibanezmatt13> yep, true
[07:53] <ibanezmatt13> We might try and fly NORB in December.
[07:53] <eroomde> cool
[07:53] <ibanezmatt13> I think I might have to write some JSON python program to log the humidity and temp readings from Habitat. This SD card thing is looking a bit pear-shaped
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[07:54] <eroomde> what's wrong with it?
[07:55] <ibanezmatt13> no code which I try will work with it at all.
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[07:55] <ibanezmatt13> I went through it with a few people last night, we didn't get anywhere
[07:55] <eroomde> hmm
[07:55] <eroomde> got multiple sd cards to try?
[07:55] <ibanezmatt13> nope. Only one, which I also considered as the issue
[07:56] <ibanezmatt13> I formatted it with a FAT32 filesystem, supposedly covered by the Arduino SD library which is pretty simple
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[07:56] <eroomde> i wouldn't bother with any of that atm
[07:57] <eroomde> that's miles too tower-of-cards to start with
[07:57] <eroomde> just see if you can treat it as api addressable memory
[07:57] <eroomde> spi*
[07:57] <ibanezmatt13> not sure how I'd do that without a card
[07:57] <eroomde> i.e. write a single byte to a single address, wait 1 second, then see if you can read it back
[07:57] <eroomde> well yes, you do need a card
[07:57] <ibanezmatt13> oh right :P
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[07:58] <eroomde> but no file systems or anything
[07:58] <eroomde> that's much much too complicated
[07:58] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I could try that
[07:58] <ibanezmatt13> I'll just have a read of how to use SPI on Arduino
[07:58] <eroomde> it should be pretty simples
[07:58] <eroomde> api is about the simplest possible thing, conceptually
[07:59] <eroomde> though you have to be sure you set it up right in terms of whether the data is aligned with rising or falling clock edges and so on
[07:59] <ibanezmatt13> ah yeah, that stuff confuses me
[07:59] <eroomde> it's simple enough really
[07:59] <eroomde> you have a clock, which looks like a square wave
[08:00] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[08:00] <eroomde> the things listening on SPI will look at the state of the MOSI line either on the clock's rising edge or the clock's falling edge - the data sheet will tell you which
[08:00] <eroomde> and so the thing sending as to be configured to know how to send it according to that
[08:00] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok
[08:01] <eroomde> there is not a great reason to design the api bus like that
[08:01] <eroomde> you could just say 'data is read on clock rising edges'
[08:01] <eroomde> and be done with it
[08:01] <eroomde> but for historical reasons we're stuck with it
[08:02] <ibanezmatt13> ah right. So I'll have a look at the SD socket data sheet
[08:02] <eroomde> yeah
[08:02] <eroomde> well, sd card datahseets are crap
[08:02] <ibanezmatt13> lol, this one only has dimensions on it :P
[08:02] <ibanezmatt13> http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtmX&a4x&cEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--
[08:02] <eroomde> but http://elm-chan.org/docs/mmc/mmc_e.html
[08:03] <eroomde> read the api bit
[08:03] <eroomde> spi*
[08:03] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[08:03] <eroomde> well, read the whole thing
[08:03] <eroomde> it's a good guide
[08:04] <ibanezmatt13> yeah looks very informative, thanks
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[08:10] <ibanezmatt13> not quite the easiest thing to understand eroomde :)
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[08:11] <eroomde> his english is soso
[08:12] <ibanezmatt13> I was thinking more that the actual concept is tricky to grasp initially
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[08:13] <eroomde> spi?
[08:13] <ibanezmatt13> yea, well for me
[08:13] <eroomde> it's super simple
[08:13] <eroomde> there are 2 hills
[08:13] <eroomde> you're on the top of one, i'm on the top of the other
[08:13] <eroomde> you're trying to send me a message
[08:14] <eroomde> you have a flag which you can hold up above your heard, or down
[08:14] <eroomde> i want you to send me the following message
[08:14] <eroomde> 11101000
[08:14] <eroomde> how do you do it?
[08:14] <ibanezmatt13> go up or down accordingly with the flag
[08:14] <daveake> write 11101000 on the flag :p
[08:15] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: that's a totally weasel answer
[08:15] <eroomde> 'accordingly'
[08:15] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[08:15] <eroomde> what does that mean
[08:15] <eroomde> i am on the other hill
[08:15] <eroomde> what do i see
[08:16] <ibanezmatt13> me with a flag waving it up if it's a 1 or down if it's a 0, perhaps
[08:16] <Hix> you've wired the flag up wrong
[08:16] <Hix> ;p
[08:16] <ibanezmatt13> very interesting example
[08:17] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ_AFK -> Steve_G0TDJ
[08:17] <Steve_G0TDJ> Morning Peopel :-)
[08:17] <Steve_G0TDJ> *gah* People
[08:17] <fsphil> morning parson
[08:17] <Steve_G0TDJ> ...my son
[08:17] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: no
[08:17] <eroomde> you're not answering my question
[08:18] <eroomde> answer my question
[08:18] <eroomde> i want you to send the message 11101000 to me
[08:18] <eroomde> describe what you would do
[08:18] <eroomde> not in general terms, literally tell me what you would do to send that exact message
[08:19] <ibanezmatt13> er
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[08:20] <ibanezmatt13> I really don't know what I'd do
[08:20] <eroomde> why not?
[08:22] <ibanezmatt13> I just don't understand, honestly it just seems really confusing
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[08:23] <eroomde> what i wanted to get at was the following
[08:23] <eroomde> you have a flag
[08:23] <eroomde> i am watching you
[08:23] <Hix> think ed is just after down-up-down etc
[08:23] <eroomde> i want you to send 11101000
[08:23] <eroomde> yes Hix
[08:23] <eroomde> i want you to get that byte to me by waving your flag
[08:23] <eroomde> don't over think this :)
[08:23] <eroomde> over-think*
[08:23] <Hix> you defined 0 and 1 earlier ibanezmatt13
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[08:24] <ibanezmatt13> I always overthink
[08:24] <eroomde> i know
[08:24] <ibanezmatt13> so it's to do with me actually moving and giving you this byte?
[08:24] <eroomde> yes
[08:24] <eroomde> up-down-up-down etc
[08:25] <ibanezmatt13> still not sure. If you're on a hill and I'm on the hill next to you, I go down-up and I'm there. So then do I like, go back down up again to get back to where I was or... man this is wierd :/
[08:26] <Hix> literally, down-up-up-up-down in that format
[08:26] <Hix> you only have 2 states, why try to add another
[08:27] <ibanezmatt13> how can I go up if I'm already up
[08:27] <fsphil> ah ha
[08:27] <eroomde> tada!
[08:27] <Steve_G0TDJ> LOL
[08:27] <ibanezmatt13> what did I do :)
[08:28] <eroomde> wouldn't it be useful if you had a second flag
[08:28] <ibanezmatt13> I still don't understand, so I'm not sure why it would be useful
[08:28] <eroomde> so you identified that sending repeated bits was difficult e.g. 1-1-1
[08:29] <ibanezmatt13> yse
[08:29] <ibanezmatt13> yes
[08:29] <eroomde> how do i know that's 1-1-1
[08:29] <eroomde> it could be 1
[08:29] <eroomde> or 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
[08:29] <eroomde> i just don't know
[08:29] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[08:29] <eroomde> if you had a second flag, you could wave it for when you want me to read the first flag
[08:29] <eroomde> so you could hold your 'data' flag up in the '1' position
[08:30] <eroomde> then wave the 'read-it-now' flag 3 times
[08:30] <eroomde> do you see?
[08:30] <ibanezmatt13> 1-1-1?
[08:30] <eroomde> yeah
[08:30] <eroomde> this would be to send 1-1-1
[08:30] <ibanezmatt13> that part makes sense
[08:30] <jarod> http://www.flightradar24.com/BAW428
[08:30] <jarod> next mixed
[08:31] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: cool
[08:31] <eroomde> so we have a flag that you put the data on, and a flag that you put on a signal that tells me when i can read the data
[08:31] <ibanezmatt13> right
[08:31] <eroomde> well, that's just what SPI is doing
[08:32] <eroomde> it has a data line (well, 2, one for each direction) and a clock line which plays the role of you 'read-the-data-now' flag
[08:32] <eroomde> i.e. the listener knows to read the data line (i.e. is it a high or low, 1 or 0) every time the clock line pulses
[08:33] <ibanezmatt13> I see
[08:33] <eroomde> now you might say 'why do i need the clock line, can't both sides just know that it's 1 bit per 1ms or something'
[08:33] <eroomde> yes ou can do that, that's how UART works
[08:33] <eroomde> i.e. the serial links with the gps
[08:33] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[08:33] <eroomde> but, it's much more complicated to make a UART than and SPI
[08:34] <eroomde> you both have to know and agree on a baud rate
[08:34] <eroomde> if your two clocks are slightly different, they can drift relative to each other over time and fall out of sync
[08:34] <PE2G> jarod: Missed approach?
[08:34] <eroomde> so you have to constantly correct for timing slips, e.g. with the sync pulses in rtty
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[08:35] <ibanezmatt13> Ok then, so know I should have sufficient info to test this SD card out?
[08:35] <eroomde> and you have to read the data line at least 4 times faster than the agreed data rate so you can fully recover the sent signal
[08:35] <eroomde> which is why serial links top out at about 1Mbps, whereas SPI links can do say 25Mbps quite easily
[08:35] <ibanezmatt13> ah I see
[08:35] <eroomde> well, that's how the physical signalling works
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[08:36] <eroomde> for the sd card, you need to know (which that doc describes) to to actually send
[08:36] <fsphil> spi is also easier to do from software
[08:36] <eroomde> and what to expect back
[08:36] <fsphil> no timing nonsense
[08:36] <eroomde> yeah
[08:36] <ibanezmatt13> ok, I'll read that page again
[08:37] <ibanezmatt13> I think I'm a visual learner :P
[08:39] <eroomde> indeed
[08:39] <eroomde> i'll might lend you my logic analyser
[08:39] <eroomde> i think you'll like it
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[08:40] <ibanezmatt13> I've heard of these things but never looked into them
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[08:40] <fsphil> they give you a visual look into your circuit
[08:41] <eroomde> you can see all the pulses going back and forth
[08:41] <fsphil> very handy for seeing how things are actually going
[08:41] <eroomde> i'll demo it on wed
[08:41] <fsphil> not what you think they're doing
[08:41] <ibanezmatt13> excellent
[08:41] <eroomde> yes ^^^
[08:41] <fsphil> I was using one last night and noticed some timing issues with my code
[08:41] <eroomde> the difference between what you think is happening and what's actually happening is very different often
[08:41] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: that would have been very helpful when we were sorting the sensor out :P
[08:42] <eroomde> nothing like actually having eyes on it
[08:42] <fsphil> yep :)
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[08:42] <ibanezmatt13> are they expensive?
[08:42] <ibanezmatt13> for a decent one
[08:42] <eroomde> not the cheapest
[08:42] <fsphil> you might be able to get a student discount
[08:42] <ibanezmatt13> ah
[08:42] <eroomde> ah yes
[08:42] <eroomde> yes
[08:42] <ibanezmatt13> possibly yeah
[08:42] <Steve_G0TDJ> I got a nice cheap one on eBay that uses the 'Logic' software
[08:43] <eroomde> http://www.saleae.com/students
[08:43] <eroomde> don't worry about it for now ibanezmatt13, we'll have a play on mine
[08:43] <eroomde> then you can see how you like it
[08:43] <ibanezmatt13> ok, thanks
[08:43] Action: Steve_G0TDJ wishes he could visit
[08:43] <eroomde> i'd get a scope before a LA
[08:43] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[08:43] <fsphil> I was hoping my prediction would move further south -- it's done the opposite: http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=41ebf3099c4d32eb05c6c7ce25b2ac24745cdb39
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> don't oscilloscopes do the same as logic analysers?
[08:44] <eroomde> if you get a chance by wed (obv no pressure), maybe see if you can get the api sending one byte over and over again
[08:44] <eroomde> not quite
[08:44] <eroomde> i'll explain the dif on wed
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[08:45] <jarod> for dutch:
[08:45] <jarod> Piloot: Zet je hem ff op youtube!
[08:45] <jarod> ATC: haha ja mooie landing
[08:45] <ibanezmatt13> I'll try eroomde but my knowledge on the whole thing isn't great
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[08:45] <eroomde> yep indeed
[08:45] <eroomde> no pressure or expectation
[08:45] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[08:46] <fsphil> just play with cool gadgets
[08:46] <eroomde> but don;t worry about the sd or anything, just get the avr to send one single byte in a loop, say 1000 times a second
[08:46] <ibanezmatt13> no libraries? Just by controlling HIGH/LOW on pins?
[08:46] <ibanezmatt13> I suppose the later will be better for undertsnadin
[08:46] <eroomde> library is fine
[08:47] <ibanezmatt13> ok
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[08:47] <eroomde> well, it's an actual hardware peripheral on the avr
[08:47] Action: Steve_G0TDJ whistfully remembers playing with crystal radios when he was Matt's age...
[08:47] <eroomde> so it's not done in tersm of high/low anyway
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[08:47] <daveake> Steve_G0TDJ Ditto. Also TTL shiift registers which are pretty much SPI anyway
[08:48] <eroomde> if you are writing in low-level C, you would write a byte to an SPI tx buffer, then write a byte to the api control register saying 'send' and it would then do the relevant 8 high/low bits on the right pin
[08:48] <Steve_G0TDJ> Played with them at school daveake
[08:48] <eroomde> sorry i keep typing api when i mean spi
[08:48] <ibanezmatt13> lol, an SPI API would make it easier to understand
[08:49] <daveake> wrong
[08:49] <eroomde> :)
[08:49] <daveake> easier to implement
[08:49] <Steve_G0TDJ> daveake: My school won the very first BBC Micro produced
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> Yes, that daveake
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> :)#
[08:49] <daveake> you're supposed to be learning not just getting something to work :)
[08:50] <eroomde> you're doing a good job of both btw
[08:50] <daveake> indeed
[08:50] <Steve_G0TDJ> Seconded
[08:50] <eroomde> you're covering a lot of new ground quickly
[08:50] <eroomde> so take heart from that
[08:50] <ibanezmatt13> well, slowly getting there
[08:50] <Steve_G0TDJ> It always feels slow
[08:50] <eroomde> we're just pushing you hard because there's no point pushing to softly :)
[08:50] <ibanezmatt13> of course :)
[08:51] <ibanezmatt13> Time to play with some SPI I think
[08:51] <jarod> if you want to listen to ATC radio
[08:51] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm going to have a read of that SD-Card page, thanks to eroomde
[08:52] <eroomde> np
[08:52] <ibanezmatt13> yes, very informative. Just a bit over my head at the minute
[08:52] <eroomde> it's a good explanation, despite the definite english-as-a-second-language air
[08:52] <ibanezmatt13> Steve_G0TDJ, the sell giffy bags at the post office right?
[08:52] <ibanezmatt13> how ever you spell it
[08:53] <Steve_G0TDJ> Mine does, yes
[08:53] <Steve_G0TDJ> Jiffy
[08:53] Action: fsphil borrows them from the office
[08:53] <ibanezmatt13> cool, if I can get to one today I'll post your stuff, but might me tomorrow
[08:53] <ibanezmatt13> be*
[08:53] <Steve_G0TDJ> Thanks Matt, no rush
[08:53] <ibanezmatt13> np
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[08:57] <DL1SGP1> morning Steve
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[08:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi Felix, sorry, I was on another page :-)
[08:58] <ibanezmatt13_> Oh Steve_G0TDJ, I looked at your new board. Looks stunning
[08:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> Thank you :-)
[08:58] <Steve_G0TDJ> I wante to get everything on a really small board
[08:59] <DL1SGP1> ha I apologize your 30s delay in returning to my greeting
[08:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> 42x46mm I believe
[08:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> LOL Felix :-)
[08:59] <ibanezmatt13_> cool
[08:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> I already did a versio with not so many pins broken out but I wanted to make sure they were all available.
[09:01] <PE2G> Wind at Schiphol 220 deg with 48 gusting 63 knots
[09:02] <DL1SGP1> sweet PE2G
[09:02] <jarod> listen here: :)
[09:02] <PE2G> Moin DL1SGP
[09:02] <DL1SGP1> it is rather quiet here right now, we had some stronger but yet weak gusts earlier... still rather boring in northern Germany :)
[09:03] <Steve_G0TDJ> Same here Felix. Quite high gusts at around 6:00am but calmer now with blue skies and sun
[09:04] <jarod> http://www.flightradar24.com/THA898 go around
[09:04] <PE2G> Wind increasing here in the east of NL. I just took my GP antenna in
[09:05] <DL1SGP1> data from my WX-Station http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=INIEDERS152&day=28&year=2013&month=10&graphspan=day
[09:05] <Steve_G0TDJ> Just seen on Twitter: BREAKING: Hyde Park and Regent Park in London closed due to safety concerns
[09:06] <fsphil> "London closed due to safety concerns"
[09:07] <fsphil> forget the first bit
[09:07] <Steve_G0TDJ> I wouldn't be surprised
[09:07] <DL1SGP1> heh
[09:07] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
[09:07] <PE2G> Missed approaches at Schiphol now
[09:07] <Steve_G0TDJ> The Woolwich ferry was closed for a while, they have re-opened with one boat since
[09:08] <f5vnf> 22 deg and clear blue skies
[09:08] <DL1SGP> Stormy weather reminds me of lovely walks towards the port of Southampton
[09:08] <jarod> http://www.flightradar24.com/DLH9PK join holding request
[09:09] <PE2G> Herstmonceux 00Z met-sonde landed in central NL last night. Never seen Herst that far east before
[09:09] <PE2G> Last decode at 1146 m: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=51.75350+5.12878
[09:10] <PE2G> http://s14.postimg.org/qeqog3cgx/Screen1166.jpg
[09:10] <jarod> i missed.. http://www.flightradar24.com/KLM462
[09:10] <jarod> also missed approach
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[09:14] <jarod> http://www.flightradar24.com/DLH9PK <-- screw you guys, i am going home?
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[09:16] <Maxell> jarod: nice :)
[09:16] <Reb-SM3ULC> jarod: hu? to windy?
[09:16] <Maxell> due to storm?
[09:16] <jarod> lets following him
[09:16] <jarod> i dont wanna switch radio to him
[09:16] <Maxell> green line is lower altitude right?
[09:17] <jarod> yes
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[09:17] <Maxell> so he was about to do something :P
[09:18] <fsphil> eject?
[09:19] <jarod> welcome to schiphol :D
[09:20] <Reb-SM3ULC> welcome to skip-hole
[09:20] <Reb-SM3ULC> ;)
[09:21] <DL1SGP> Friend and inmate at halls of mine once wanted to fly back to Southampton and instead was sent to Birmingham due to WX issues... he in a great mood after the trip :D
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[09:22] <sidhantdhall> hello
[09:23] <Hix> morning
[09:23] <sidhantdhall> i have questions egarding ntx2 and sdr radio
[09:24] <Hix> shoot
[09:24] <sidhantdhall> first, how do u assign callsign to a ntx2 module interfacing to arduino??
[09:25] <Hix> have you seen the wiki article on UKHAS?
[09:25] <Hix> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[09:26] <sidhantdhall> i saw a tutorial provided by a radiomedix guy abt the interfacing and reading the data on ur ham radio.. but no mention abt the callsign
[09:27] <sidhantdhall> how do u assign it to the transmitter module?
[09:27] <Hix> all the sample code is in the link above. It was written by Upu who also sells them in his store. He also has the NTX2B now.
[09:27] <fsphil> the ntx2 is just a dumb transmitter. it'll send whatever you put into the TX pin
[09:28] <Hix> It's pretty simple. I made it work, and I am known for using flint tools
[09:28] <sidhantdhall> yup saw that, problem is.. i have 2 launches at the same time with same transmitter.. how do i differiente between the recieving frequency without knowing the callsign.. any solution for that?
[09:29] <daveake> Each launch has its own callsign and that's embedded in the message along with the rest of the telemetry
[09:29] <Hix> 2 launches with the same transmitter? On the same frequency?
[09:29] <sidhantdhall> yup..
[09:30] <Hix> as in 2 x NTX2
[09:30] <sidhantdhall> thats right
[09:30] <Darkside> er
[09:30] <Darkside> why
[09:30] <Hix> not a common transmitter between 2 payloads
[09:30] <craag> Why?
[09:30] <daveake> Use different frequencies
[09:30] <Darkside> yeah
[09:30] <Darkside> or use a NTX2B
[09:30] <Hix> NTX2B has differnt freqs
[09:30] <daveake> Or you need to TDM which is probably a step too complex
[09:30] <fsphil> you'll have to buy them at different frequencies. you can't change them after
[09:30] <Hix> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=71_63
[09:30] <fsphil> well you can a little
[09:30] <Hix> speak to Upu
[09:33] <sidhantdhall> just a curiosity, what would happnnnn n n both trasmit the same freq .. im using a sdr
[09:33] <Darkside> they would intrfere
[09:33] <sidhantdhall> what wud u receive ?
[09:33] <Darkside> and you would gt no data
[09:33] <sidhantdhall> ok
[09:33] <daveake> Depends but don't do it
[09:34] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[09:35] <gonzo_> a slow TDM should be easy to do on HABS, if both units have GPS timing
[09:35] <craag> gonzo_: A bit complex for a first launch though.
[09:35] <fsphil> would be cool though
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[09:35] <Darkside> its been done
[09:35] <Darkside> some guy in NSW did it with a few launches
[09:36] <gonzo_> but the drict problems from turning the TX on and off with the ntx2 would be a prob
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[09:36] <gonzo_> drift
[09:36] <daveake> Wasn' there some sort of balloon fiesta (no, a real one that actually happened) that did this a year or so back?
[09:36] <Darkside> gonzo_: yep
[09:36] <Hix> daveake heh
[09:36] <fsphil> or, CDMA
[09:36] <Darkside> fsphil: heh
[09:36] <gonzo_> poss the ntx2b is less drifty though, that has a tcxo I believe?
[09:37] <daveake> yes that's much better
[09:37] <daveake> not tried enabling/disabl;ing one yet tho
[09:37] <Hix> speaking of balloon fiestas, I was thinking of flying one of these http://goo.gl/fKzZOF
[09:37] <gonzo_> not sure we could manage cdma with a simple FM modulation
[09:37] <daveake> lol
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[09:37] <craag> lol Hix
[09:37] <fsphil> sure it would work
[09:38] <Darkside> Hix: do it
[09:38] <Darkside> 100% australian approved
[09:38] <Hix> I plan to land it in the open boot of a moving car
[09:38] <Darkside> i'm glad i'm on the other side of the world when you fly it
[09:38] <fsphil> lol
[09:39] <Hix> I'm not using a GPS either going to have AVR based telekinesis
[09:39] <Darkside> using dowsing rods as receiv antennas?
[09:39] <Darkside> i don't see a problem with that
[09:39] <Hix> should be all good, just wanted to check here first
[09:39] <Darkside> yeah
[09:39] <Darkside> sounds A-OK to me
[09:40] <Hix> and instead of a cutodown, H2 with piezo igniter
[09:40] <fsphil> flare gun
[09:40] <Hix> don't be stupid fsphil thats just dangerous
[09:41] <fsphil> ok, tazer
[09:41] <Hix> hmmmm
[09:41] <craag> Yeah, lose the flare, could cause a fire, just use a gun to shoot the balloon.
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[09:41] <Hix> .50" would be ok in the counrtyside wouldn't it
[09:42] <craag> Hmm might be a bit heavy to put on the payload, but hey you could just use multiple parachutes right?
[09:42] <fsphil> small explosive in the balloon neck, using a mechanical timer
[09:42] <Hix> a chute, hmm hadn't though of one of them. is it stricly neccessary?
[09:43] <Darkside> fsphil: because mechanical timers work veyr well
[09:43] <Darkside> as the register has shown
[09:43] <Hix> did think of mech timer fsphil but thought it might not thaw in time
[09:43] <daveake> :)
[09:43] <Darkside> Note to any ballooning newbies: Don't do anythign we are talking about.
[09:43] <Darkside> Seriosuly
[09:43] <Darkside> Seriously*
[09:43] <Steve_G0TDJ> *Don't try this at home*
[09:43] <sidhantdhall> got it.. lol
[09:44] <daveake> Darkside I told Lester that if he was going to bring that timer, I was going to bring my timer-adjustment-hammer
[09:44] <gonzo_> </satire>
[09:44] <Darkside> we're professionals, we do this for a living
[09:44] <Darkside> (not)
[09:44] <Hix> We could arrange a proper balloon fiesta, where we fly Ford Fiestas, they are very light compared to Land Rovers so they'll be ok. they are also <2m
[09:45] <Hix> </flipant_behaviour>
[09:45] <Hix> +p
[09:45] <gonzo_> topgear put a reliant in the air. So 'how hard can it be....'
[09:46] <Darkside> that didn't work though
[09:46] <Hix> I'll consult Richard Vere-Compton to make sure any science I plan is correct and sensible
[09:47] <Darkside> ok now i don't gt that reference
[09:47] <Hix> ask eroomde, he steals his ideas all the time and uses them to make rockets under the pretense of knowing what he is doing
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[09:56] <sidhantdhall> guys... plz give me options for the tracking.. lot of regulations in india which is damn restricting us from using good modules... one is 144mhz, we cannot use it so going with 27mhz, is it ok?, second is RDF900, 900 mhz banned so alternative 2.4 high range?? third is spot gps, less coverage of spot gps here, other options?? gprs option left for but cutoff when it goes more than 1 km altitude.. please suggest
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[09:57] <Hix> Darkside check this https://www.facebook.com/richard.verecompton
[09:57] <Hix> it's <5% of the real level of lunacy of the man himself
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[10:00] <craag> sidhantdhall: Have you found whether you can use 434MHz like we do in the UK?
[10:01] <sidhantdhall> we can but we need license for that which takes more than 1 year to get
[10:02] <daveake> Even for low power?
[10:03] <craag> 433 ISM is listed as Region 1 only. India is Region 3.
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[10:04] <craag> sidhantdhall: Can you use Amateur Radio airborne?
[10:05] <sidhantdhall> we need to wait for that for 1 year.. im getting up someone who has ham license.. for that reason i was thinking to go with sdr
[10:06] <sidhantdhall> no issues of license
[10:06] <daveake> sdr has nothing to do with it
[10:06] <daveake> That's just a receiver, of ISM or amateur transmissions
[10:07] <craag> On a side note, a Ham License is good to get, teaches you some helpful stuff.
[10:07] <adamgreig> 27MHz is a very different game to 434 or 144
[10:07] <craag> But if you are permitted to use it airborne, you can use APRS on 144MHz, it'll be a lot easier than 27Mhz.
[10:07] <adamgreig> 2.4GHz is also tricky because losses are much highe
[10:07] <adamgreig> higher*
[10:07] <sidhantdhall> yes im giving the exam soon..but i for the tests before that, i wud use sdr....
[10:08] <craag> License is for the transmitter.
[10:08] <sidhantdhall> u need license for the ham radio even
[10:08] <craag> You'll need the license before you can test on 144MHz.
[10:09] <craag> Whether with an sdr or not.
[10:09] <sidhantdhall> right.. that is the reason i was going with 27mhz with is in citizen band
[10:09] <craag> 27Mhz is difficult to use though, and can have a lot of interference.
[10:09] <craag> If you can, 144MHz APRS is your best bet in my opinion.
[10:11] <sidhantdhall> oh.. i was seeing the byonics modules even.. but all fall under the licensing category.. any solutions to test it without the requirement of license??
[10:11] <craag> Nope.
[10:11] <craag> You'll need the license.
[10:11] <sidhantdhall> umm..
[10:11] <craag> Worth getting though! (I'm a UK instructor)
[10:12] <sidhantdhall> ye sim giving the exam for sure.. but a wait for 1 year is long
[10:12] <sidhantdhall> lemme find out sme people who have the license, they can help out
[10:13] <craag> Yes, if someone else is happy to take responsibility for the tracker under their callsign+license, you're all set.
[10:13] <sidhantdhall> right..
[10:14] <jarod> http://www.flightradar24.com/TRA5582 go around
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[10:16] <craag> With APRS you can then just use an off-the-shelf unit. Just make sure the GPS module in it works at 35km or so. (Some stop working at >18km)
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[10:17] <sidhantdhall> yes.. are the byonics modules good enough? what modules do u use for the tranmitter?
[10:18] <craag> sidhantdhall: THe byonics have the GPS4 unit, that states it works at high-altitude.
[10:19] <sidhantdhall> ok.. lemme see if i can get those..
[10:20] <craag> (THat's just the GPS receiver, the APRS transmitter is seperate)
[10:21] <sidhantdhall> ya, i see that..
[10:21] <craag> :) Just checking.
[10:22] <craag> Note: I build my own APRS units, so don't have experience with the byonics kit, but I've heard of people using it in cars without problems.
[10:22] <sidhantdhall> so for those transmitters u can actually call sign right??
[10:22] <sidhantdhall> *assign
[10:23] <craag> Yes. THe callsign will need to be the callsign of the Amateur Radio License Holder who is responsible for the transmitter.
[10:24] <sidhantdhall> oh.. got it now
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[10:25] <craag> I think you can program a comment field on those, which could say "sidhantdhall's balloon"
[10:25] <craag> But the callsign has to identify the Amateur Radio license that is being used for the transmission.
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[10:27] <sidhantdhall> ok.. what are the other options for tracking? spot gps, gprs trackers etc
[10:27] <craag> SPOT/gprs trackers can be used as a backup, but in the UK we tend to only get 50% reliability out of them.
[10:27] <daveake> those are options for not tracking :/
[10:28] <craag> ^^ not primary at least.
[10:28] <daveake> yup
[10:29] <sidhantdhall> these wud be backup but any primary?? like i saw post people sayign abt using rdf900 and worked nicely
[10:29] <sidhantdhall> now again 900 is banned here
[10:29] <craag> Primary in your situation: APRS is best I think.
[10:30] <craag> (144MHz)
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[10:31] <craag> brb
[10:32] <sidhantdhall> ok..
[10:33] <LeoBodnar> TI says India is 315/433/470/780 http://www.ti.com/lit/sg/slya020a/slya020a.pdf
[10:35] <DL1SGP> Greetings LeoBodnar :)
[10:36] <LeoBodnar> What is APRS freq for India? http://aprsisce.wdfiles.com/local--files/doc:frequencies/APRSVHFworldmap.png lists it as unallocated
[10:37] <craag> LeoBodnar: Wikipedia listed 433 as R1 only.
[10:37] <craag> And no mention of it in: http://cis-india.org/telecom/unlicensed-spectrum-policy-brief-for-govt-of-india/unlicensed-spectrum-brief.pdf
[10:37] <craag> See Section 5
[10:38] <LeoBodnar> OK, I won't put much trust into any marketing stuff from TI
[10:38] <DL1SGP> :)
[10:38] <LeoBodnar> I am switching 2m APRS frequencies flying over different regions - so what is India's?
[10:42] <LeoBodnar> looks like it can be pretty much anything - not a single digipeater or igate in the country
[10:42] <craag> :(
[10:43] <Maxell> are there hams in India?!
[10:44] <sidhantdhall> i guess one igate gateway is there in bangalore.. i was searching for their contacts but no luck
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[10:44] <craag> You might be able to persuade other hams to set a temporary one help to help you track though.
[10:45] <sidhantdhall> ther are hams but the procedure for getting the license is like 1-2 years which is too much
[10:45] <craag> *up to help you track
[10:45] <Maxell> LeoBodnar: flying APRS now?
[10:45] <sidhantdhall> yup, searching for that
[10:45] <LeoBodnar> Yes Maxell on the last two balloons
[10:45] <Maxell> You know airborne APRS in .nl is a bit shady, eh
[10:46] <Maxell> However, Dutch law does not apply in UK, right? :P
[10:47] <DL1SGP> he told the Balloon to avoid NL, not his fault if it does not obey :) he was even reading the regulations to the balloon
[10:47] <LeoBodnar> I can put it on my black list together with UK France Latvia North Korea and Yemen
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[10:47] <Maxell> In .nl you'd need a special 159 euro "no one is around" licence.
[10:48] <Maxell> For fm simplex repeaters, digis, beacons, balloons etc etc
[10:48] <LeoBodnar> Do you have a link with details?
[10:48] <Maxell> They also require you to have some way of making it stop
[10:48] <fsphil> my eyes read that as "digis, bacons, balloons etc"
[10:49] <fsphil> waiting for it to burst is a kind of way of making it stop?
[10:49] <craag> btw fsphil I remember you had a plan to illuminate a balloon with big leds at one point?
[10:49] <fsphil> indeed craag
[10:50] <PE2G> LeoBodnar: Are you using APRS on 2m or 70cm?
[10:50] <fsphil> a small device in the neck shining up into the balloon
[10:50] <LeoBodnar> 2m PE2G
[10:50] <Maxell> LeoBodnar: http://www.agentschaptelecom.nl/sites/default/files/beleidsnotitie-onbemand-frequentiegebruik.pdf
[10:50] <craag> Well, there was a demo at the BATC convention AM modulating video onto an LED, and receiving it with a fresnel sheet and a phototransistor.
[10:50] <fsphil> though I think it would be better to have the LED facing down -- the latex gets quite transparant when stretched
[10:50] <craag> Yeah, we came to that conclusion too.
[10:51] <fsphil> oooh nice. M0DTS was telling me about doing video over optical
[10:51] <fsphil> I'm going to try just doing rtty
[10:51] <fsphil> got it working with a small LED
[10:51] <craag> I have a photo, one mo.
[10:51] <fsphil> need to make something with a lot more power
[10:51] <Maxell> LeoBodnar: and http://www.agentschaptelecom.nl/onderwerpen/radiozendamateurs/onbemand-frequentiegebruik
[10:51] <LeoBodnar> Thanks Maxell I will have a read
[10:52] <craag> They've done it with ~5W LED at 100km terrestial.
[10:52] <craag> *terrestrial
[10:54] <Maxell> LeoBodnar: it's mostly about fm repeaters blasting 24/7, but somewhat applies to hab most dutch hams avoid it
[10:55] <LeoBodnar> avoid it?
[10:55] <Maxell> PE2G: something like that, right?
[10:55] <sidhantdhall> guys gotta go... catch u again.. have a good day!!
[10:55] <Maxell> Yeah, they do not do amateur licence stuff on balloons
[10:55] <Maxell> And if they do they get the paperwork done
[10:56] <LeoBodnar> Do you have 70cm APRS infrastructure?
[10:56] <LeoBodnar> WIth a number of manual 434MHz trackers in NL who needs APRS? :D
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[10:56] <fsphil> craag: the catch being that they have gain on both sides of the link
[10:57] <fsphil> but I'm hoping the low data rate of RTTY will allow it to work
[10:57] <PE2G> Maxell: I haven't ever come across the word "balloon" on that site
[10:57] <craag> Yeah, they reckoned it could be done with a bit more gain at the ground end though.
[10:57] <fsphil> indeed
[10:57] <craag> Arrggh G+ keeps posting cut-off pics
[10:57] <fsphil> my prediction for next weekend is stupid, so no point trying it on that
[10:58] <craag> The scotland one?
[10:58] <fsphil> yea
[10:58] <fsphil> most of the optical hams are in the north of england or cambridge
[10:58] <Maxell> PE2G: i remeber http://www.ballonvossenjacht.nl/frequenties/ getting the special "no one is behind the transmitter" paperwork
[10:58] <craag> The 'northeners' are keenly waiting for another of your inter-island balloons.
[10:59] <craag> They loved having one dumped in their back yard!
[10:59] <fsphil> lol
[10:59] <Maxell> LeoBodnar: yeah we run APRS on 430,5125 Mhz in .nl!
[10:59] <fsphil> I loved having a look for it
[10:59] <Maxell> and 144.8 ofc
[10:59] <fsphil> it's a nice part of the world
[11:00] <fsphil> I might delay this launch, wait for a better prediction
[11:00] <PE2G> I believe the Balloon fox hunt got an exemption
[11:03] <PB1DFT> mogge
[11:05] <PE2G> I've run an APRS I-gate for a short while on 430.5125 but hardly any station used it.
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[11:05] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[11:05] <DL1SGP> Hallo Lunar_LanderU
[11:05] <PE2G> http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FPE2G-10
[11:06] <PB1DFT> most use 144.800
[11:08] <PE2G> PB1DFT yeah, but I'm mainly set up for UHF
[11:09] <PB1DFT> i listenen on 70cm for aprs for a while here too but no the was no radio traffic..
[11:10] <PB1DFT> *listened
[11:10] <PE2G> I agree
[11:11] <PE2G> I pointed a yagi to the SW approx along the A1, but hardly any mobiles
[11:11] <nats`> hi
[11:13] <Maxell> PE2G: yeah same here in The Hague. The Rijswijk digi most of the time just annoucing itself
[11:13] <Maxell> and PA3WEG uses it when hes on his bike :P
[11:14] <PE2G> If he's coming my way on his bike, I'll start the I-gate up again :)
[11:14] <Maxell> hahaha
[11:16] <Maxell> I hope to start doing APRS soon, 6 nov exam :)
[11:16] <Maxell> APRS/packet networks is/are nice
[11:17] <PE2G> Yeah, are you ready for the exam?
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[11:18] <Maxell> PE2G: I guess so, having some troubles memorizing the classes of transmission (like CW A1A, analog fm voice F3E)
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[11:18] <Maxell> However, Q-codes is going pretty ok
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[11:22] <PB1DFT> hehehe
[11:23] <mattbrejza> hey LeoBodnar , whats your usual source of lipos on ebay?
[11:23] <mattbrejza> this bloke: http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/snewway?_trksid=p2047675.l2559 ?
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[11:24] <Maxell> PB1DFT: learning rows of words once again the hard part :P
[11:24] <mfa298> Maxell: wow, you have to remember the classes of emmission. We don't even have them listed in the license schedule any more here (they used to be listed in the old license conditions - the much loved/hated br68)
[11:26] <Maxell> mfa298: yeah, and it acctually got asked in the latest novice exam!
[11:26] Action: Maxell is going to search for online q-code tutor :P
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[11:28] <mfa298> Q codes make sense as they're used a lot, but I rarely see the classes of emmision used anywhere - people just refer to AM/FM/SSB etc.
[11:29] <Maxell> mfa298: yes. I wonder if they will use this list for the exam http://www.qsl.net/sp9hzx/qcode.html
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[11:31] <mfa298> that looks like a fairly long list.
[11:31] <Maxell> :(
[11:32] <mfa298> QAZ looks like a fitting one for the current wx, QAZ -- storm here,I am closing station
[11:32] <Maxell> lol, that list might be bogus QLF -- you are keying with your left foot
[11:32] <adamgreig> haha
[11:32] <adamgreig> 100% sure those are all real legit Q codes
[11:32] <adamgreig> that every self respecting ham knows
[11:32] <Maxell> lol
[11:33] <mfa298> if you go looking there are lots of Q codes. With some parts of the Q space for Airforce, Navy, and HAM and some are shared.
[11:33] <mfa298> although I don't know if they're used much outside of HAM these days
[11:34] <gonzo_> aviation use qnh and qfe still
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[11:35] <Maxell> This textbook I have only states 14 Q-codes. I will stick with those.
[11:35] <mfa298> QLF is listed on wikipedia (as a humourous code)
[11:35] <mfa298> some of the background etc is on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_code
[11:35] <LeoBodnar> I have personally used QDM
[11:36] <LeoBodnar> [embarrassed about that]
[11:39] <Maxell> Whats wrong with QDM?
[11:39] <jarod> big mofo incoming: http://www.flightradar24.com/CLX861
[11:40] <Maxell> jarod: man the harpoons
[11:40] <gonzo_> just had a count, I know 16 that are regularly used
[11:41] <jarod> http://bin.snmmd.nl/m/m1mx9onas8kp_std1024.jpg :O
[11:41] <jarod> http://www.flightradar24.com/UAE147 bigger boy incoming
[11:42] <eroomde> sort of the wrong channel jarod
[11:42] <Maxell> gonzo_: textbook tells me about QRK, QRM, QRN, QRO, QRP, QRT, QRV, QRX, QRZ, QSB, QSL, QSO, QSY, QTH.
[11:42] <eroomde> there must be irc channels dedicated to plane spotting
[11:42] <eroomde> this isn't one, though
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[11:43] <Maxell> hehe
[11:44] <gonzo_> QRA QRG, QSP and QRL (Though prob not that common)
[11:44] <fsphil> what about high altitude planes?
[11:44] <LazyLeopard> QLF may not be official, but it certainly gets used occasionally, sometimes followed by HI...
[11:45] <Maxell> gonzo_: wow they do sound useful :P
[11:45] <Maxell> textbox why u so incomplete :(
[11:46] <LazyLeopard> Which text book?
[11:47] <Maxell> LazyLeopard: VERON "Cursusboek voor het N-examen"
[11:47] <Reb-SM3ULC> fsphil: I would say all planes >20 km is ok.. :)
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[11:48] <LazyLeopard> HTat the novice exam?
[11:48] <LazyLeopard> That the novice licence exam?
[11:48] <Maxell> Yes, Dutch Novice, "PD*" callsign
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[11:48] Action: LazyLeopard 's typing is a bit QLF this morning...
[11:49] <Maxell> LazyLeopard: QRK is fine
[11:49] <Maxell> QRO! QRO!
[11:49] <LazyLeopard> It'd make sense to just have the most common ones, then.
[11:49] Action: LazyLeopard is sitting with his keyboard resting on his left foot, as it happens... ;)
[11:50] <Hix> all this Q mullarkey, is this the same as QNH and QFE in aviation (<20km ;p)
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[11:51] <gonzo_> yep, they stared out as universal morse abreviations. And some still used as TLA's
[11:51] <Maxell> wtf, tla?
[11:51] <gonzo_> (Though TLA's that are not much of an 'A' !)
[11:51] <gonzo_> Three Letter Apreviation
[11:51] <Reb-SM3ULC> LazyLeopard: QLF gets a bit of a new meaning with these trackers... :)
[11:52] <Maxell> gonzo_: lol, wtf... tla?? ;)
[11:52] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[11:52] <Lunar_LanderU> Vla!
[11:52] <gonzo_> well soptted Maxell
[11:52] <Maxell> Lunar_LanderU: https://lh3.ggpht.com/_-1tqrsseXpA/Rqn-bhTkCsI/AAAAAAAAAII/RIAOJvugPDw/s320/vla.jpg
[11:53] <Maxell> ???
[11:53] <gonzo_> Should have QLW and QLT. Landed-tree and Landed-wet
[11:53] <Lunar_LanderU> yeah :)
[11:53] <Lunar_LanderU> Vla is awesome!
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[11:54] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[11:55] <LeoBodnar> Maxell: I was lost
[11:55] <LeoBodnar> And resisted the temptation of using GPS
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[11:56] Nick change: ibanezmatt13_ -> MYSDWORKS
[11:57] <DL1SGP> congrats matt
[11:57] <MYSDWORKS> thanks!
[11:57] Nick change: MYSDWORKS -> ibanezmatt13
[11:57] <Lunar_LanderU> yay congrats xD
[11:58] <ibanezmatt13> the problem: the GND pins weren't actually grounded :/
[11:58] <ibanezmatt13> So I've bodged it with a wire from the "gnd pins" to ground. And woo
[11:58] <DL1SGP> so you put the pcb into the time-out corner to get grounded?
[11:58] <Reb-SM3ULC> The newpapers in Sweden are funny... storm has been renamed to Simone.. but also to a swedish variant of "Jude".. weird
[11:58] <DL1SGP> ah your approach made sense too :)
[11:58] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[11:58] <Lunar_LanderU> oh
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[11:59] <Lunar_LanderU> Simone is a nice name actually
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[11:59] <DL1SGP> indeed, they should have called it Angela, or NSA or something along those lines :D
[12:01] <Reb-SM3ULC> Lunar_LanderU: yeah.. :) the swedish version of Jude is Judas which translates to Judas back in english....
[12:01] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13, good news
[12:01] <Maxell> LeoBodnar: ah!
[12:01] <ibanezmatt13> yes!
[12:01] <eroomde> which library is that using?
[12:01] <ibanezmatt13> Arduino SD
[12:01] <ibanezmatt13> It was a hardware issue
[12:01] <Reb-SM3ULC> DL1SGP: but this storm doesn't stick with you forever... ;)
[12:02] <Lunar_LanderU> Reb-SM3ULC: oh ok
[12:02] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde, I've still been practising SPI. https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/7194355
[12:02] <Lunar_LanderU> DL1SGP: xD
[12:02] <Reb-SM3ULC> DL1SGP: probably postpones antennawork until late tomorrow i guess....
[12:02] <ibanezmatt13> I know I could have done it in a loop, but I wanted to break it into all the steps
[12:04] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13, wow nice
[12:04] <eroomde> so you're basically doing software SPI
[12:04] <DL1SGP> Reb-SM3ULC: Antennas have been secured over here, not lowered so for now station stays operational. The storm is a joke over here anyhow :) max gust a bit ago was 25km/h
[12:04] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde, well I was studying the clock/data diagrams showing the pulses so I basically translated as best as I could
[12:05] <eroomde> now your avr chip has hardware peripherals that will do all this for you
[12:05] <eroomde> but this is a very good exercise
[12:05] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[12:05] <eroomde> you might want to then condense that into a function that takes a byte, or a pointer to some bytes, as an arguement
[12:05] <eroomde> and then breaks up those bytes into bits and sends them one bit at a time
[12:05] <eroomde> that'd teach you some very useful C too
[12:06] <ibanezmatt13> I'm working on that right now eroomde
[12:06] <eroomde> awesome
[12:06] <ibanezmatt13> learning about LSBs and stuff
[12:06] <eroomde> great
[12:06] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: looks like some good learning practice that, well done!
[12:07] <eroomde> you've come across the concept of 'endianess' then i guess
[12:07] <ibanezmatt13> thank you mfa298
[12:07] <adamgreig> ibanezmatt13: your identicon is great
[12:07] <adamgreig> pure luck?
[12:07] <ibanezmatt13> I don't know what that means :/
[12:07] <ibanezmatt13> probably yes
[12:07] <adamgreig> your github avatar
[12:07] <ibanezmatt13> aaah
[12:07] <adamgreig> is based on a hash of your username and some other bits or something
[12:07] <adamgreig> https://identicons.github.com/f143752d072fd5ca0303c1b45e9f2e99.png
[12:07] <ibanezmatt13> well, what can I say
[12:07] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[12:08] <craag> wow, best one I've seen!
[12:08] cuddykid (~acudworth@ joined #highaltitude.
[12:08] <adamgreig> in a system they made to create symmetric and patterned things
[12:08] <adamgreig> but an X is pretty cool
[12:08] <ibanezmatt13> it knows it's me you see
[12:08] <ibanezmatt13> NORB
[12:08] <adamgreig> :P
[12:08] Action: ibanezmatt13 back to work
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[12:14] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
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[12:29] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13, if you fancied something fun, I came across this
[12:29] <eroomde> https://www.udacity.com/course/cs222
[12:29] <eroomde> it might help with the whole a-level amths/mechanics + coding thing
[12:30] <eroomde> + rocket science!
[12:30] <ibanezmatt13> oh nice, thanks! :D
[12:30] <Willdude123> eroomde, I tried that once I think, I just forgot about it really. Might try it again
[12:31] <eroomde> Willdude123, i've not used it so can't give a super proper recommendation
[12:31] <eroomde> but from the intro video, i'd say it looks like an excellent thing to try and do
[12:31] <Willdude123> I did PH100 and that was quite good
[12:31] <Willdude123> I actually got my name mentioned in TIME
[12:31] <eroomde> i definitely think that coding these things and solving them numerically is a really useful thing to do at a school stage
[12:32] <eroomde> it'll give you a good intuition
[12:32] <Willdude123> http://nation.time.com/2012/10/18/college-is-dead-long-live-college/
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[12:33] <eroomde> ha nice
[12:34] <Willdude123> Obama and Romney actually wrote articles in the same section.
[12:34] <Willdude123> They may well have read it
[12:34] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde, NORB is logging datastrings to SD card perfectly :)
[12:34] <Lunar_LanderU> some wind http://wetter.physik.uni-osnabrueck.de/rrdtool/rrdtool/wetter-os-wind-xxl.png
[12:35] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13, awesome
[12:35] <eroomde> good work
[12:35] <eroomde> is that with a filesystem?
[12:35] <ibanezmatt13> yes, FAT standard
[12:37] <mfa298> when you want a new challenge you could try writing your own FAT driver.
[12:37] <mfa298> I had something similar as a piece of coursework at uni but that was working with a 3.5" floppy (they were still standard back then)
[12:37] <ibanezmatt13> nah I think I'll not frustrate myself more :)
[12:38] <eroomde> yeah, maybe save that for another day :)
[12:38] <fsphil> or make your own FS :)
[12:38] <eroomde> but basically do you understand the problem a filesystem is solving?
[12:38] <ibanezmatt13> no, but perhaps I should not try to understand that yet
[12:38] <eroomde> nah it's easy
[12:38] <mfa298> there was a reason I started that suggestion with *when*
[12:39] <eroomde> there's not much to understand
[12:39] <eroomde> let's play another silly ed thought game
[12:39] <eroomde> this time no overthinking
[12:39] <ibanezmatt13> hang on one sec
[12:39] <ibanezmatt13> I've got a 2 year old menace wanting me to play drums with him, let me get him elsewhere first
[12:40] <eroomde> memory is just a load of bytes in a row
[12:40] <eroomde> each byte has an address
[12:40] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[12:40] <eroomde> the SD interface just lets you write a a byte to an address
[12:40] <mattbrejza> if you wanted a bit more of a challange, try using an SD card via: http://elm-chan.org/fsw/ff/00index_e.html
[12:40] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[12:41] <eroomde> so i put an sd card into your flight computer and you don't have this clever fat sd library, it's just an sd interface that will write a byte to an address you tell it to
[12:41] <eroomde> you want to start writing telem strings, what do you do?
[12:41] <eroomde> how do you pick your address to start writing from?
[12:41] <ibanezmatt13> read the datasheet
[12:42] <eroomde> ok, the datasheet says you can start writing from address 0x0000
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[12:42] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[12:42] <eroomde> so you're gonna start from there?
[12:42] <eroomde> (that's fine if that's your answer, remember don't overthink yet)
[12:42] <ibanezmatt13> I guess so
[12:42] <eroomde> cool
[12:42] <eroomde> ok
[12:43] <eroomde> so midflight your flight computer restarts due to a dodgy power connection
[12:43] <eroomde> where are you gonna start writing from?
[12:43] <ibanezmatt13> ah
[12:43] <eroomde> :)
[12:43] <ibanezmatt13> the next address after what has already been filled with something
[12:43] <eroomde> wouldn't it be cool if you had a section, say at the beginning of the sd card, where you remember how far into the sd card you'd got
[12:44] <eroomde> ah but how do you know what that next address is?
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[12:44] <ibanezmatt13> mm
[12:44] <eroomde> the sd card could be filled with garbage
[12:44] <Darkside> ibanezmatt13: don't assume the SD card is blank
[12:44] <ibanezmatt13> good point
[12:44] <eroomde> you don't know just from looking at it what 'data' and what's 'garbage', it's all just bytes
[12:44] <ibanezmatt13> I see
[12:44] <adamgreig> even if it WAS blank
[12:44] <ibanezmatt13> Thank god file systems already exist readily
[12:44] <eroomde> so, the way around this is to store how far into the sd card you've got, every time you write something
[12:44] <adamgreig> you might be storing "0x00000000" as your data
[12:44] <eroomde> so you know where to start from next time
[12:45] <ibanezmatt13> That makes sense
[12:45] <Darkside> ibanezmatt13: using something like FAT Is nice from a being able to plug it into a computer point of view
[12:45] <eroomde> and if you have multiple files, you might want to store in a table where you've allocated them all
[12:45] <Darkside> but horrible from a code space point of view
[12:45] <adamgreig> eroomde: almost like a.. file.. allocation.. table
[12:45] <ibanezmatt13> ah :D
[12:45] <eroomde> you could call this table where you store where you've allocated your files a: File allocation table
[12:45] <Darkside> you could use the SD card like a big EEPROM, and write some code to read the data out via serial or something
[12:45] <eroomde> or FAT for short :)
[12:46] <ibanezmatt13> that's pretty cool
[12:46] <eroomde> so that's all it's doing
[12:46] <Darkside> hell, you could probably take th sd card and read it as a block device and gt the data
[12:46] <eroomde> nothing more complicated than that
[12:46] <Darkside> anyone know if that woudl work?
[12:46] <adamgreig> yea you can
[12:46] <Darkside> writ byte into card from AVR, then dump the sd card via dd and strings it
[12:46] <adamgreig> of course
[12:46] <adamgreig> that's fine
[12:46] <ibanezmatt13> so an SD card is a lot of registers to store bytes
[12:46] <fsphil> I had an idea for a really simple block file system. if a block has a valid checksum, it's in use
[12:46] <adamgreig> you could even write your own linux filesystem driver for it
[12:46] <eroomde> Darkside, yep that's fine
[12:47] <eroomde> and you can pull it off with dd or something
[12:47] <adamgreig> (don't do that though)
[12:47] <Darkside> fsphil: that involves doing lots of checksums though
[12:47] <adamgreig> checksums are pretty cheap and you're doing htem anyway for your telem strings
[12:47] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13, more modern file systems do even more stuff, like have checksums on the data so you know if the memory has corrupted, or whatever
[12:47] <Darkside> i mean from his file system point of view
[12:47] <adamgreig> don't most filesystems checksum anyway
[12:47] <Darkside> its vry inefficint
[12:47] <fsphil> to find a blank block you just do a binary search
[12:47] <ibanezmatt13> ah right
[12:47] <eroomde> but the basic job of the filesystem, the problem it's trying to solve, is to keep tabs on where everything actually is inside your large sea of bytes
[12:48] <fsphil> would be a pain to delete stuff from though
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[12:48] <Laurenceb> just use fatfs
[12:48] <fsphil> it would be a write-once read many kind of file system
[12:48] <Laurenceb> problem solved
[12:48] <adamgreig> thanks for that insight Laurenceb
[12:48] <Darkside> bahaha
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[12:49] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13, cool, ok, so that's what FAT is doing. you understand now, and can carry on as you were ;)
[12:49] <Darkside> 'The more you know, by ed'
[12:49] <ibanezmatt13> thanks for the lesson eroomde :)
[12:49] <eroomde> np
[12:49] <cardre> It also explains why SDCards fail, because FAT keeps rewriting the tables to the same place and the sdcard has limited write cycles per block
[12:50] <cardre> The rest of the card is fine, but that area is unable to be rewritten any more
[12:50] <eroomde> tis always useful to at least know why you're using stuff, even if the guts of it are too complicated to go into right now
[12:50] <SpeedEvil> blocks are not blocks.
[12:50] <eroomde> what cardre says is *super* true
[12:50] <adamgreig> and SD cards will upset you in all sorts of other ways
[12:50] <cardre> logfs is an alternate that gets around that problem, if you don't need windows support.
[12:50] <adamgreig> just ask eroomde
[12:50] <eroomde> and infact there is a bit of an art to getting data onto SD cards at high speed
[12:50] <SpeedEvil> the SD card wear levels over large sets of eraseblocks of 2m or so each
[12:50] <cardre> it keeps appending all the time
[12:51] <eroomde> which involves not repeatedly hammering the file allocation table, because the sd card's wear leveller will keep saying 'STFU!!!' for like 200ms while it tries to stop the same sector getting bashed repeatedly
[12:51] <eroomde> during which time you're building up a large backlog of data
[12:52] <cardre> not all sdcards have wear levelling, esp cheaper ones
[12:52] <eroomde> indeed
[12:52] <eroomde> that's annother annoying thing
[12:52] <eroomde> how different they all are
[12:52] <Darkside> apparently some of the class 10 cards you buy are actually lower class cards pretending to be higher class level cards
[12:52] <eroomde> just using the SPI interface and keeping the rates low is nice, you never had to encounter 90% of this crap
[12:52] <Darkside> dunno how that works
[12:53] <eroomde> bbl lunch
[12:53] <Laurenceb> preallocation stuff helps
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[12:54] <mfa298> Darkside: I've certainly seen some SD cards that don't write at the speed their class suggests, although some of that could be FS issues.
[12:54] <Laurenceb> https://github.com/Laurenceb/STM32-Logger/blob/master/main.c#L268
[12:54] <fsphil> I've avoided SD cards. will have to have a play
[12:54] <mfa298> although for large files (video) I'd hope the FS overhead isn't that huge.
[12:54] <fsphil> they're really cheap storage
[12:55] <cardre> Preallocation is the answer for large/bulk data. FS overhead is a limitting factor if not used
[12:56] <cardre> I've also seen a large 'cache' files created that are then just treated as large memory blocks that then have video or other higher speed streaming data written to them.
[12:57] <Laurenceb> cardre: sd spec calls for wear levelling
[12:57] <cardre> Cross between using FAT for windows compatibility and raw block usage for speed. The small FAT files themselves store pointers that get written into the cache block file occasionally
[12:58] <cardre> Laurenceb: it does, but how effective and how well it is (or isn't implemented) in cheap cards is questionable
[12:58] <Laurenceb> yeah
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[13:11] <fsphil> oh, ISS doing SSTV?
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[13:14] <DL1SGP> sometimes fsphil
[13:14] <DL1SGP> they have an automated system for it, in past lack of batteries was an issue :)
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[13:41] <PB1DFT> Maxell: i have untill the 6th for my F
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[13:48] <Andrew_M6GTG> Just a heads up, the ISS SSTV is currently active, not sure if it still will be for next pass over UK but might be..
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[13:56] <fsphil> typically I can't get any sstv software working on linux
[13:56] <eroomde> nice
[13:57] <Hix> eroomde I'm now going through cs222 - I do have work to do you know :)
[13:57] <eroomde> which ones is that?
[13:57] <eroomde> oh yes
[13:58] <eroomde> that one
[13:58] <eroomde> yes
[13:58] <eroomde> you know, i might give it a whirl
[13:58] <eroomde> always with that kind of thing it's stuff you in theory did at the beginning of your degree and in theory know and stuff
[13:58] <eroomde> but there will always be little snippets on insight to gain that you missed the first time round
[13:58] <eroomde> eg the udacity course on particle filters really sorted out something in my mind which i never quote grokked on the first pass at uni
[13:59] <Hix> In my case, just completely forgotten, like every part of maths after the age of 16
[13:59] <eroomde> :)
[13:59] <eroomde> lemme know what you think of it
[13:59] <Hix> I had even forgotten BODMAS a few weeks back, but still had OHSAHCOAT luckily
[14:00] <eroomde> i learnt it as SOHCAHTOA
[14:00] <eroomde> but your way works to
[14:00] <eroomde> like a japanese man demanding to know wht you're wearing that pretects you from the rain
[14:00] <eroomde> WHAYUWEARIN?
[14:01] <eroomde> OHSAHCOAT!
[14:01] <Hix> yup - that was how it stuck with me
[14:01] <Hix> though it was more like odd job gong through a lost property box
[14:02] <Hix> whatever, it stayed there :) BODMAS should have just remembered a stick figure going to church
[14:02] <eroomde> i prefer your mental image
[14:02] <Hix> cur bod music as an earworm for all
[14:02] <Hix> that is THE first time I have heard that quote from anyone :)
[14:03] <Hix> if those of you who are too young for bod don't now have the earworm, you're welcome http://goo.gl/8FeKqI
[14:03] <fsphil> are the udacity course time limited once you start one?
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[14:04] <eroomde> nope
[14:04] <eroomde> totally at your own pace
[14:05] <eroomde> it's basically youtube vids with gaps for questions/answers as you go along
[14:05] <eroomde> and then a more substancial bit of homework at the end of the module
[14:05] <fsphil> not so bad that
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[14:08] <Hix> MITx has some great offerings too
[14:08] <Hix> and for C there is a series of UNSW lectures, the guy is really engaging, helps get a lot of concepts into my head easile
[14:08] <Hix> *y
[14:17] <fsphil> ah, must check that out
[14:17] <fsphil> R.Buckland?
[14:17] <Hix> sec
[14:19] <Hix> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2YOaJzOxMQ&list=PL6B940F08B9773B9F
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[14:19] <Hix> yes Buckland
[14:20] <mfa298> Hix: that bod intro was reminding me of some early Aardman things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta7VHKGuoJY (probably not something you'll get on kids tv)
[14:26] <fsphil> hah
[14:30] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: The NORB 3 Tracker is finally complete! All components working away as expected. Check out http://t.co/pockoCKDNi for more! #hab #ukhas
[14:33] <ibanezmatt13> I think as a nice exercise, I'm going to form some sort of Python script to read through the text file on the SD card and produce a few different graphs of the different data. That should be interesting. Anybody know of some sort of module/api for Python which exports graphs or something?
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[14:39] <Darkside> matplotlib
[14:39] <mfa298> that sounds like a good exercise.
[14:41] <adamgreig> matplotlib is the one to go for
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[14:47] <Hix> ipython notebook is good for playing around with too ibanezmatt13
[14:47] <Hix> includes matplotlib / numpy too
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[14:50] <Hix> mfa298 that kick in the cojones lookd painful
[14:53] <Maxell> PB1DFT: are F and N at the same time, if yes, soo you wednesday :
[14:53] <Maxell> :P
[14:53] <eroomde> +1 for matplotlib
[14:53] <eroomde> it's the answer
[14:53] Action: mfa298 realises that afternoon productivity might have dropped as everyone goes to watch various youtube clips
[14:53] <eroomde> :)
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[15:01] <Laurenceb> http://www.u-blox.com/en/evaluation-tools-a-software/reference-designs/for-wireless-modules/c027-internet-of-things-kit.html
[15:01] <Laurenceb> balloon boardz
[15:01] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ -> Steve_G0TDJ_AFK
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[15:03] <craag> Those look pricey...
[15:03] <craag> Quite a bit of interest in an IoT enabled balloon here. We're thinking about doing 6LoWPAN UDP downlink on 868MHz!
[15:03] <Laurenceb> 119 euros with 3G
[15:03] <PB1DFT> Maxell: F is around 14:00
[15:04] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:04] <craag> Huh, not bad at all then!
[15:04] <Laurenceb> STM32W1 now has 6LoPAN
[15:04] <Laurenceb> not tried it yet
[15:05] <craag> The main issue is it's all still very experimental, almost every current implementation still has bugs.
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[15:05] <Laurenceb> doesnt 6LoWPAN need bidirectional?
[15:05] <craag> Not as UDP!
[15:05] <Laurenceb> oh of course
[15:05] <Laurenceb> neat
[15:05] <Laurenceb> so STM32W with power amp
[15:06] <craag> There's tons of options.
[15:07] <craag> I'm building a border router, then I'll see what the guys recommend at that time to hook up to a ublox.
[15:07] Action: craag submits feature request for IPv6 UDP interface on habitat.
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[15:11] <Laurenceb> whats a border router?
[15:11] Action: Laurenceb learns to google
[15:11] Action: Hix resists bad joke involving wooden picture frames
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[15:13] <mfa298> border router - presumably the router at the border of a network, not usually so applicable to home networks.
[15:13] <craag> It sits inbetween the 6LoWPAN Network on one side, and an ethernet/wifi IPv6 network on the other.
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[15:14] <craag> Provides the bridge. And does a lot of header-mangling to do it.
[15:14] <mattbrejza> is this what you were thinking of using hte cc430 for craag ?
[15:14] <craag> mattbrejza: No. This is a long way off at the moment.
[15:14] <craag> And there are better chips.
[15:14] <mattbrejza> your 3yp though?
[15:14] <craag> yes
[15:14] <craag> using CC1180
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[15:15] <mattbrejza> yea cc430 is a nice space saving thing
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[15:15] <mattbrejza> oh TI have made an ic for 6lowpan
[15:15] <mattbrejza> makes your life easier
[15:16] <craag> Ah not CC430 for 3yp, CC1180 instead.
[15:16] <craag> Yeah.. does the 6lowpan-packet => radio interface at least
[15:16] <mattbrejza> well better hope the hardwaire isnt as buggy as the software stack
[15:16] <craag> I've still gotta do ipv6-packet <=> 6lowpan-packet
[15:17] <jarod> dear techs: How much difference does 50 or 75 ohm make for reception anyway?
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[15:17] <mattbrejza> at the 'basestation'?
[15:17] <craag> Yep. My 3yp is to make the 'basestation' that then plugs into an ethernet ipv6 network.
[15:17] <mattbrejza> oh right
[15:18] <mattbrejza> you already have some transmitters then?
[15:18] <mattbrejza> or is that trivial?
[15:18] <craag> There are some lying around from previous projects.
[15:18] <mattbrejza> oh ok
[15:18] <mfa298> jarod: you might get some loss if the antenna and radio are 50 ohm
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[15:18] <mfa298> although unless you're doing really weak signals you might not notice the loss.
[15:19] <mattbrejza> its like 0.18dB?
[15:19] <mfa298> a bigger factor is the quality of the cable. Low Loss UHF tv cable really isn't low loss.
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[15:19] <mfa298> unless you're comparing it to a wet piece of string when it might be a lower loss than said string.
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[15:26] <wd8mnv> a wild D-2 has appeared!
[15:28] ibanezmatt13 (6d9097bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip. left irc: Quit: Page closed
[15:28] <x-f> its launch is scheduled for 23 UTC to ride with the cyclone
[15:28] <DL1SGP> yeah sven announced that he planned to launch
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[15:30] <fsphil> 6lowpan is a terrible name
[15:31] <Laurenceb> 6fryingpan
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[15:32] <fsphil> lindsay 6lowpan
[15:32] <mfa298> 6bacon
[15:32] <Hix> 6loworm
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[15:34] <Laurenceb> haha
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[15:39] <Hix> failed my udacity module for minutes in 7 weeks by ruinning print "there are %d minutes in %d weeks" % (minutes, weeks)
[15:39] <Hix> sometimes learning punishes you......
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[15:47] <Hix> fsphil that thing you weretalking about where you could access and write to a remote drive over ssh, what was it again?
[15:48] <craag> sshfs ?
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[15:48] <ed__> i'm trying to bomb through this course Hix
[15:49] <ed__> i've just met miriam
[15:49] <ed__> she likes baking sweet things
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[15:49] <Hix> which one ed__
[15:49] <ed__> 222
[15:50] <Hix> ahh
[15:50] cuddykid (~acudworth@ left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
[15:50] <Hix> I went back to python as a bit a day seems to be sinking in
[15:50] <Hix> though I got cocky and failed for being too flash [pleb level flash]
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[15:52] <Hix> ed__ where would baking be coming into 222?
[15:52] <Hix> contagions?
[15:52] <ed__> miriam introduces herself at the end of the first lesson
[15:52] <ed__> she's helping with the problem sets
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[15:55] <Hix> ahh. I'm doing lptwh and to brake up the boredom and practice CS101 from udacity
[15:55] <Hix> break, dammnit
[15:55] <Hix> I want to speed up not slow down
[15:55] <Hix> you put baking in my head, now I can taste bread
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[15:56] <PB0NER> ping DL7AD
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[15:57] <Maxell> PB1DFT: :O nice I'm going for N @ 14:15!
[15:57] <fsphil> Hix: yea sshfs
[15:57] <Maxell> QRV PMR446 channel 1? :P
[15:57] <fsphil> it's brilliant
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[16:00] <Hix> cheers fsphil and sorry craag, missed that.
[16:00] <PB0NER> Maxell: kids on ch 1
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[16:04] <Hix> randomly someone just tweeted some weird Eithipoian maths style of multiplication http://goo.gl/1YPiB8
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[16:10] <DL7AD> ping PB0NER
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[16:13] <Hix> hmm sshfs is excellent
[16:13] <adamgreig> "excellent"
[16:13] <PB1DFT> yep @ Maxell 14:15
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[16:14] <PB1DFT> nice small drie from the west to the east ;)
[16:14] <PB1DFT> *drive
[16:14] Nick change: KyleYankan -> TianenmenSquareR
[16:14] Nick change: TianenmenSquareR -> KyleYankan
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[16:36] <LeoBodnar_> ping arko
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[16:40] <ed__> i have left miriam behind
[16:40] <ed__> now i'm saving apollo 13
[16:40] <adamgreig> nice
[16:40] <ed__> i'm not sure i have the patience to see this through
[16:40] <adamgreig> this is the applied DEs thing?
[16:40] <ed__> yes
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[16:41] <Hix> change the scrubber before you run out of o2s ed__
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[16:42] <PB0NER> DL7AD: I did work in Niederlehme
[16:43] <jphoglund> hmm
[16:43] <jphoglund> D-2 being prepared for launch?
[16:43] <PB0NER> launch 2300 (CET)
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[16:44] <jarod> thanks for the answers... i tested rg-59 on 1090 mhz for fun :)
[16:45] <jarod> its not that bad
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[16:45] <Hix> apparently solar [partial] eclipse on 03-11-13
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[16:47] <mfa298> if it's a really short piece of cable rg58/rg59 will work on 1090, but I wouldn't want a long piece as it's quite lossy at those frequecies
[16:47] <fsphil> rain on the 3rd then
[16:47] Action: fsphil gets his coat
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[16:48] <jarod> mfa298 10-12m :)
[16:48] <arko> LeoBodnar_: yoyo
[16:48] <arko> you pinged?
[16:49] <mfa298> jarod: that's probably ~3dB of loss in that then just from the cable - so half the power lost.
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[16:58] <mfa298> jarod: for that sort of length I'd probably look to use rg213 as a minimum and ideally something like westflex 103 (1.3dB loss)
[16:58] <mfa298> alternativly a pre-amp at the antenna end could help.
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[16:59] <craag> pre-amp at the antenna is ideal if you aren't planning to transmit
[16:59] <craag> What freq is this at?
[16:59] <mfa298> 1090
[16:59] <craag> ah ads-b
[17:00] <mfa298> currently he's using 10-12m of rg59
[17:00] <craag> Upu makes an ADS-B version of the habamp
[17:00] <craag> You could jsut put that at the antennas-end of the rg59 and it would improve things a lot!
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[17:01] <mfa298> pre-amp (habamp) is probably worth it whatever is used if the antenna is only used for rx.
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[17:02] <LeoBodnar_> arko: do you remember I have been pitching you those small latex party balloons that are about 36"
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[17:03] <craag> mfa298: I think he uses a 1090 1/4 wave. So wouldn't be txing.
[17:03] <mfa298> then again I'd also prefer urm70 over rg59, stranded core makes it a lot easier to work with.
[17:04] <craag> Yeah RG59 could definetely be improved on. But I think you'll see a far greater improvement by adding a preamp, even an unfiltered one.
[17:04] <craag> (if the choice is to do one or the other)
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[17:05] <nats`> for RG59 at this length and freq I would directly go for a down mixer + lna
[17:05] <nats`> like discussed with jarod the RG59 is not even rated for GHz on website
[17:06] <arko> i think so yes
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[17:06] <arko> LeoBodnar_: i cant remember the source
[17:07] <mfa298> a couple of places gave a loss figure for rg59 at 1ghz (which was slightly better than I expected)
[17:07] <craag> Downconverter would be ideal, but maybe a little ott on complexity for an ADS-B rx setu.
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[17:07] <LeoBodnar_> I have told you their burst diameter as measured by chrisstubs. Do you still posses this vital knowledge?
[17:07] <arko> ah yes!
[17:07] <arko> like 1.4m or so
[17:08] <LeoBodnar_> could it be 1.2?
[17:08] <LeoBodnar_> I forgot lol
[17:08] <mfa298> or have a longer usb connection and short coax between antenna and rx (presumably rtl-sdr)
[17:09] <nats`> mfa298 I did some test with the longer usb cable and in that case you need to modify the dongle
[17:09] <nats`> that destroy snr
[17:09] <mfa298> run ethernet and power up to the antenna and stick a Pi at the bottom of the antenna.
[17:09] <nats`> I think the ground become bad
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[17:09] <nats`> yep that could be an idea :)
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[17:09] <mfa298> I think USB is specced to 5m for a passive connection.
[17:10] <arko> LeoBodnar_: yeah something like that
[17:10] <nats`> yep but the problem is that your Vcc and GND will have too much noise
[17:10] <mfa298> so you'de need something active in there, or find something else designed for longer usb connections.
[17:10] <arko> one sec
[17:10] <nats`> I should post picture of my modification
[17:11] <nats`> I cut the usb 5V to have one locally cleaner
[17:11] <nats`> and added decoupling cap
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[17:11] <arko> LeoBodnar_: 1.2m
[17:11] <arko> you got it right
[17:11] <LeoBodnar_> Cheers!
[17:11] <arko> :)
[17:11] <arko> are you going to try it?
[17:11] <arko> if so im super interested
[17:12] <arko> i need an alternative to mylar soon
[17:12] <arko> i have a few picos im building now
[17:12] <LeoBodnar_> My memory is getting worse. I need to meet you in person one day to say thank you!
[17:12] <arko> half tempted to ship them to one of you guys to fly them
[17:12] <craag> nats`: I've also run into Vdrop issues on long cables with 3G dongles.
[17:12] <arko> me?
[17:12] <LeoBodnar_> 'twas a joke
[17:12] <arko> ah
[17:12] <nats`> craag taht's not surprising since they don't respect the max current
[17:12] <arko> i need coffee
[17:12] <arko> i am yet to really wake up
[17:13] <arko> :P brb
[17:13] <nats`> and IIRC USB 5V has a min voltage of 4.4V
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[17:13] <craag> I've seen stuff fail at <4.8V
[17:13] <nats`> so if your stick is doing something a little too power hungry you're fucked
[17:13] <LeoBodnar_> use picos as indoor blimps
[17:13] <nats`> min is 4.4V in usb 2 and 4 in usb 3 :)
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[17:14] <craag> Most decent USB kit we use at work has a 5v->5v DC-DC on the input, and works down to 3V in :)
[17:14] <nats`> seems the usual way to do it :)
[17:14] <craag> Yeah, but when has chinese kit ever paid attention to specs ;)
[17:15] <nats`> I don't know if you already put a scope or better a SA probe on the usb 5V
[17:15] <nats`> really cool noise generator
[17:15] <nats`> following what you do on the computer :p
[17:15] <craag> Yeah I've stuck a scope on there a lot
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[17:16] <nats`> <craag> Yeah I've stuck a scope on there a lot <= that will be next introductory sentence to girls I meet at the bar :p
[17:16] <craag> haha
[17:16] <nats`> anyway using clean "unlimited" current 5V for the rtl sdr is a good idea
[17:17] <craag> mm
[17:17] <mfa298> Hix: that's an interesting video of how to do multiplication
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[17:18] <craag> Some of my kit now has 9-12V feeds to 5V step-downs at the end of extension cables, bulked up with the full range of caps :)
[17:18] <craag> (mainly for the 3g dongles)
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[17:27] <nats`> craag I should try with a linear psu :D
[17:27] <nats`> I have a 220V to 5V tranformer
[17:27] <nats`> for 5A
[17:27] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ_AFK -> Steve_G0TDJ
[17:27] <nats`> pretty big and lossy but with good filtering.. :D
[17:27] <nats`> but seeing the dynamic range of those rtl sdr dongle I don't think it worth the pain
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[17:36] <Upu> ping ibanezmatt13
[17:36] <ibanezmatt13> hey
[17:36] <ibanezmatt13> SD working perfectly by the way
[17:37] <Steve_G0TDJ> Ah Upu, just the fella :-)
[17:37] <Upu> oh the off chance those NTX2B were turning up tomorrow
[17:37] <Upu> yes don't all fall off your chairs
[17:37] <Steve_G0TDJ> Woo hoo!
[17:37] <ibanezmatt13> YES! :D
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[17:37] <Upu> PM me the first line of the address you want them posting too
[17:38] <Upu> hi Steve
[17:38] <Upu> sorry had a mental day
[17:38] <Steve_G0TDJ> Upu: Hi, did you get a chance to glance?
[17:38] <Steve_G0TDJ> No worries, I said not to rush
[17:38] <Upu> Kaspersky Business Space decided to mark tcpip.sys as a virus
[17:38] <Upu> haha
[17:38] <Steve_G0TDJ> Geesh
[17:38] <Upu> for added lolz the fix looked like a zip file
[17:38] <Upu> but when you double clicked it , ran without prompting
[17:38] <Upu> on an unaffected server
[17:38] <Steve_G0TDJ> PITA Day for you then
[17:39] <Upu> and rendered that inop too
[17:39] <Upu> yeah all good fun
[17:39] <Upu> will look later on
[17:39] <Steve_G0TDJ> Sure
[17:39] <Upu> just sorting some bits out now
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[17:39] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'd like it to have the 'UPU' seal of approval :-)
[17:39] <Upu> lol
[17:39] <Upu> post it here I'm sure others will critique :)
[17:39] <Upu> right afk
[17:40] <Steve_G0TDJ> I should make a seal logo up.....
[17:40] <ibanezmatt13> My SD card mustn't have passed the Upu seal of approval
[17:40] <ibanezmatt13> ;)
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[17:40] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK Guys, this is my new VAYU-NTX board utilising an NTX2b (I've heard they exist LOL) and a uBlox MAX7
[17:40] <Steve_G0TDJ> http://gerblook.org/pcb/Qk88PB9mcy85FTd4WoqNjD
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[17:41] <Steve_G0TDJ> Comments welcome
[17:42] Action: Steve_G0TDJ cowers from the stampede
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[17:43] <ibanezmatt13> Looks awesome
[17:43] Nick change: MichaelC1 -> MichaelC
[17:43] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cheers Matt
[17:43] <Steve_G0TDJ> That's the first board I really enjoyed routing
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[17:44] <adamgreig> Steve_G0TDJ: I'd pull the ground plane back from the two antenna feed lines
[17:44] <adamgreig> not much isolation there
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[17:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> I wondered about that, thanks
[17:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> Not hard to do
[17:44] <mattbrejza> you should put your decoupling for hte gps next to the power pins
[17:44] <ibanezmatt13> it gets dark waaay to early now
[17:44] <mattbrejza> same for the avr
[17:44] <adamgreig> oh yea C2 doesn't look like it's helping at all
[17:45] <adamgreig> ditto C3 and... well yea what mattbrejza said
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[17:45] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK Guys... cool noting
[17:45] <adamgreig> the power line into a chip should come directly from the capacitor
[17:45] <mattbrejza> also not entirely sure if J2 will screw too much with the antenna
[17:45] <adamgreig> never be fed from the net itself
[17:45] <adamgreig> always supply -> pin on capacitor -> your chip
[17:45] <adamgreig> and that capacitor should then be as close to the chip as possible
[17:45] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK
[17:46] <Steve_G0TDJ> Looks like I need to do a big revision
[17:46] <mattbrejza> its not a massive revision really
[17:46] <Steve_G0TDJ> :-) No, not too bad
[17:47] <mattbrejza> traces always get ripped up lots, but once all the compoenets are in place it basically routes itself very quickely
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[17:48] <Steve_G0TDJ> So I put C2 on the wrong side of the MAX7
[17:48] <Steve_G0TDJ> *doh
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[17:50] <LeoBodnar_> mattbrejza: http://miniaviation.com/KM_190P.html
[17:50] <mattbrejza> ah thanks
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[17:54] <ed__> what is U2, Steve_G0TDJ ?
[17:55] <Steve_G0TDJ> TI Boost regulator
[17:55] <Steve_G0TDJ> TPS16016
[17:55] <ed__> the only reference to it on google is your log
[17:55] <ed__> typo?
[17:55] <ed__> blog*
[17:56] <Steve_G0TDJ> TPS61016
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[17:56] <Steve_G0TDJ> Sorry, I'm numerically dyslexic :-)
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[18:02] <ed__> ok
[18:02] <ed__> so
[18:02] <ed__> it's difficult to do dorensics just off gerbview
[18:02] <ed__> but the layout for your switching converter might cause you some trouble
[18:02] <ed__> it looks like you input filtering cap is meant to be C6
[18:03] <ed__> now, that wants to be between S1 and pin1/the inductor
[18:03] <ed__> at the moment it's out on the other side of the switching reg, not really doing anything
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[18:03] <ed__> and you have the input connector going directly into the inductor
[18:04] <Steve_G0TDJ> Can I shouw you the circuit?
[18:06] <ed__> yes
[18:07] <ed__> further, i would make that output cap, C9, the last think on the switching circuit
[18:07] <ed__> before you get to the rest of the circuit
[18:07] <Steve_G0TDJ> http://www.projecthab.co.uk/VAYU_NTX-1.02/VAYU_NTX-1.02.pdf
[18:07] <ed__> atm you have r*, presumably part of the feedback network, the other side of C9
[18:07] <ed__> which is also suboptimal for the system response
[18:09] <Steve_G0TDJ> So C9 should be on the other side towards the Xtal?
[18:09] <ed__> ah right, so r8 is actually just for the low voltage indicator. that can stay
[18:10] <ed__> the one big change would be to get the input cap between the connector and the inductor
[18:10] <ed__> it's import they're close
[18:10] <Steve_G0TDJ> C6?
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[18:10] <ed__> yes
[18:11] <Steve_G0TDJ> Between the power connector you mean?
[18:11] <ed__> there is probably an example layout in the regulator's datasheet
[18:11] <ed__> yep
[18:11] <Steve_G0TDJ> There is but it's not exaclty easy to transfer, entirely my brains problem :-)
[18:12] <ed__> well, the takeaway is that you want
[18:12] <ed__> connector-->cap-->inductor-->part
[18:12] <ed__> and the traces between the inducto and the paert want to be as short as possible
[18:12] <ed__> i.e., as it stands i would consider rotating thw switching 90 degrees anticlockwise
[18:13] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK I@ll move the switch down etc.
[18:13] <ed__> it's much more important to get the track short with pin 7 - SW, rather han pin 1 -EN
[18:13] <Steve_G0TDJ> If I rotated the switch, the lever would be over the board. I suppose thats not an issue
[18:13] <ed__> the lever?
[18:13] <ed__> i meant switcher rather than switch
[18:14] <ed__> the TPS part
[18:14] <Steve_G0TDJ> The thing you move on the switch to actuate
[18:14] <Steve_G0TDJ> Oh!
[18:14] <ed__> switcher as in switching power supply. sorry, am using sloppy language
[18:14] <Steve_G0TDJ> :-) Yeah, no worris
[18:14] <ed__> u2 :)
[18:14] <Steve_G0TDJ> Third exit.... Yeah
[18:15] <Steve_G0TDJ> brb phone
[18:15] <ed__> c3 is in a random place
[18:15] <ed__> it wants to be right up next to the aref pin on the avr
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[18:17] <ed__> likewise c1
[18:17] <ed__> infact basically these all want to be as close as possible to the input pin whose supply they're filtering
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[18:18] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK Ripping up tracks as you type
[18:19] <ed__> :)
[18:19] <ed__> it's all for a good cause
[18:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> I know, it's cool
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[18:20] <ed__> it's all these bits and bobs that means 5 visible sats instead of 3
[18:20] <Steve_G0TDJ> C3 is the decoupling cap for the AVR?
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[18:20] <ed__> on your schematic, it's for AREF
[18:20] <ed__> i.e. it shields the analog reference voltage pin from any noise on the 3.3V bus
[18:20] <ed__> so yep, as close as possible to the aref pin
[18:20] <Steve_G0TDJ> So as long as it's close to the AVR somewhere, that's OK?
[18:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> Right
[18:21] <ed__> close to the aref pin
[18:21] <ed__> not just the avr
[18:21] <ed__> the avr is very noisy
[18:21] <ed__> which brings me onto
[18:21] <ed__> you are sharing the avr gnd pin on the right with the gps rf gnd
[18:21] <ed__> i'd avoid that
[18:21] <ed__> i'd have the top half of the gps (its pin and the antenna) on a separate bit of gnd
[18:22] <ed__> a little island
[18:22] <ed__> so that switching noise coming from the avr can't so easily get to the gps antenna part
[18:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> Just the top row? NOt isolate the whole thing
[18:22] <ed__> if you were to put a cutout just above where the silkscreen says 'MAX6', that'd do it
[18:22] <ed__> maybe leave it connected over to the right of the chip
[18:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> And connect the GNDs manually
[18:24] <ed__> you just want to get rid of the direct sort of line-of-sight, copper-wise, between that avr gnd pin and the gps antenna connections
[18:24] <Willdude123> ed__, are you doing that Udacity course yourself?
[18:25] <ed__> cs222?
[18:26] <Willdude123> Yeah
[18:26] <ed__> i did the first lesson just now
[18:26] <ed__> and the problems
[18:27] <ed__> it's all stuff I've done before, but there's no harm in revision. equally if it's going to be like 20 hours of work, that's a lot if it's all just stuff i've done before
[18:27] <ed__> so i'll carry on for a bit and if it doesn't look like it's going into new ground, i'll stop. the ABS bit looking interesting though, if there's some non-linear control
[18:28] <Steve_G0TDJ> ed__: Can you have a glance at: http://i.imgur.com/MDNXLyO.jpg Is that the kind of thing you meant?
[18:28] <ed__> not quite
[18:28] <ed__> one sec
[18:28] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK
[18:28] <ed__> will find an example from one of my boards
[18:28] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cool
[18:31] <ed__> http://i.imgur.com/Q9wIYMp.png
[18:31] <ed__> see there's only a bit of bottom copper connector them, otherwise separate
[18:31] <ed__> sort of analogous to how a harbour wall keeps the inside of the harbour calm despite crashing waves outside
[18:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK I see
[18:32] <ed__> also note how i've done my decoupling caps on the right there
[18:32] <ed__> close to the v+ and gnd pins on the chip
[18:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yep
[18:33] <Steve_G0TDJ> You can just see C2 in the shot I posted just now.
[18:33] <ed__> yes yep
[18:33] <ed__> much better
[18:33] <Steve_G0TDJ> Also, C3 next to the AVR
[18:33] <ed__> yep
[18:34] <ed__> 100% improvement in the noise performance of that circuit, just with those mods
[18:34] <Steve_G0TDJ> I don't think I can move the big header anywhere.
[18:34] <Steve_G0TDJ> So, C1 is the AVRs decoupling cap
[18:35] <Steve_G0TDJ> Has to be by elimination LOL
[18:36] <ed__> :)
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> lol, getting there: http://pbrd.co/Hp3bN9
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> using my new Python API
[18:38] <Steve_G0TDJ> :-)
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> oops
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[18:39] <ibanezmatt13> The solution I think would be to order the altitude from lowest to highest
[18:40] <ed__> yes
[18:40] <ed__> also
[18:40] <ed__> 140% humidity?
[18:40] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, it won't cap off at 100
[18:41] <ed__> there is something wrong somewhere between your sensor and that graph
[18:41] <ibanezmatt13> ho
[18:41] <ibanezmatt13> oh
[18:41] <ibanezmatt13> oops
[18:41] <ibanezmatt13> lol, wrong way round
[18:41] <ed__> ah :)
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[18:45] <Steve_G0TDJ> ed__: Are you around f or a little while?
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[18:48] <ed__> until about 7.15
[18:48] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK Well, before I start on the MAX7....
[18:50] <Steve_G0TDJ> Am I going in the right direction? http://i.imgur.com/J8antux.jpg
[18:51] <ed__> yes
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[18:51] <ed__> that looks good
[18:51] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cool. Anything else you can spot that needs moving?
[18:52] <Steve_G0TDJ> Actually, I might be able to squeeze a few more mil out of the board now
[18:52] <ed__> though i believe the gps antenna specifically defines the distance between it and the ground plane on the same layer
[18:52] <Steve_G0TDJ> I;'ll check out the datasheet
[18:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> ed__: It also defines the width of the trace to be 50ohms... Not exactly sure how to calculate that
[18:59] <ed__> if you did, you'd fine it was impractically thick of 1.6mm 2-layer pcb material anyway
[18:59] <ed__> so just make it the width of the pad :)
[18:59] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK
[18:59] <ed__> you can see on mine actually that i did go a bit anal
[19:00] <Steve_G0TDJ> ;-)
[19:00] <ed__> but basically if you google
[19:00] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm sure I can emulate it
[19:00] <ed__> or
[19:01] <ed__> relative mermittivity (Er) of FR4 pcb material is about 4.5
[19:01] <Steve_G0TDJ> I think I@ll copy our layout
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[19:01] <ed__> i used a coplanar waveguide for that
[19:01] <ed__> it was quite sensitive to the actual trace thicknesses and gaps
[19:01] <ed__> but as long as the trace is kept short it doesn't really matter
[19:02] <Steve_G0TDJ> THe datasheet specifies 10mm
[19:02] <Steve_G0TDJ> 19, sorry
[19:02] <Steve_G0TDJ> http://www.johansontechnology.com/images/stories/ip/rf-antennas/Antenna_1575AT43A0040.pdf
[19:03] <ed__> that's just the test board
[19:03] <Steve_G0TDJ> Although, the GPS isn't on that of course
[19:03] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, OK. Back to your version
[19:03] <ed__> the diagram at the bottom of page 1 is the important one
[19:03] <ed__> in terms of that 1mm gap
[19:04] <Steve_G0TDJ> So is that the other connectors on the GPS or the GP?
[19:04] <ed__> GP
[19:04] <Steve_G0TDJ> Right, I'm getting it now
[19:04] <ed__> the distance from the GPS module edge to the 'shore' of the GP doesn't matter so much
[19:04] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK If there's no more components to move, I'll get on with sorting the antenna out
[19:04] <ed__> forgive my constant sea analogies
[19:04] <Steve_G0TDJ> :-) no worries
[19:04] <ed__> i just think about rf stuff in terms of liquids and waves
[19:05] <Steve_G0TDJ> If it works....
[19:05] <Steve_G0TDJ> I@m gonna have to cook some dinner up soon so I@ll bid you farewell for now and many thanks for all your help
[19:05] <ed__> np
[19:05] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'll (hopefully) show you a completed board tomorrow
[19:05] <ed__> enjoy dinner
[19:05] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cheers!
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[19:06] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ -> Steve_G0TDJ_AFK
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[19:30] <DL1SGP> good evening LeoBodnar
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> evening!
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[19:33] <LazyLeopard> Have folks seen this: http://rsgb.org/main/rsgb-consultations/active-consultations/ofcom-consultations/licence-review-preparation/airborne-use/
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[19:35] <mfa298> LazyLeopard: interesting
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[19:36] <LeoBodnar> Oh balloon = UAV now
[19:36] <mfa298> there's a discussion forum it now in the litmus test http://rsgbdata.net/litmus/viewforum.php?f=22
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[19:37] <LazyLeopard> Looks like it's not open yet though.
[19:38] <mfa298> not sue UAV is the best term for them to use, although they do mention RC controlled stuff as well
[19:38] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: http://pbrd.co/Hp7Y16
[19:38] <ibanezmatt13> looking better
[19:38] <LazyLeopard> UAV is apparently "Unmanned Aerial Vehicle", which could cover all sorts of things...
[19:39] <Laurenceb__> ibanezmatt13: but not very interesting
[19:39] <LeoBodnar> UAV usually associated with drones in most people minds
[19:39] <Laurenceb__> altitude change is not very dramatic lol
[19:39] <ibanezmatt13> Laurenceb__, I'm experimenting with graphs in Python. Merely test data :P
[19:40] <LazyLeopard> Yes, it's an ambiguous acronym.
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[19:42] <nats`> that ambiguous because drone are not really unmanned usually
[19:44] <LazyLeopard> The usual use of UAV is rather narrower than the use the RSGB is trying to imply.
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[19:45] <LazyLeopard> ...but that usual use will side-track the discussion.
[19:45] <Andrew_M6GTG> My bad, my fault AURA showing up on spacenear
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[19:45] <Andrew_M6GTG> playing back some SDR recordings and hadn't switched DL-FLDIGI to offline mode
[19:46] <mfa298> I'd be tempted to get a comment in early once the discussion opens to point out that this usage of UAV is not the same as that commonly used.
[19:46] <mfa298> or maybe make a comment to the RSGB in advance.
[19:49] <LazyLeopard> I'd guess they'll open the discussion this coming weekend, probably...
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[19:51] <LazyLeopard> ...but G3WKL looks like the likely candidate for any advance comment...
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> I have a feeling that CAA gradually claims ownership to the sky while it should be a coordinator and moderator of the airspace users.
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> *of
[19:51] <nats`> the CAA is the civilian agency for air transport ?
[19:52] <Upu> the Civil Aviation Authority
[19:52] <Upu> yes
[19:52] <nats`> don't let them do the same as in France
[19:52] <nats`> ...
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[19:52] <Andrew_M6GTG> Upu: Sorry Anthony, bogus AURA showing up on Spacenear because of my error
[19:53] <Upu> not a problem
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[19:53] <Upu> playing back ? :)
[19:53] <Andrew_M6GTG> yes, preparing for a demo at the radio club on Wednesday night showing how to track.. hadn't got it offline ;-)
[19:54] <Upu> just waiting for people to come on "what frequency for AURA?!!1"
[19:54] <arko> aww, no word from B-22
[19:54] <LazyLeopard> Ah! Thanks for the reminder. I'm supposed to be giving a short talk on HAB next week too...
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> Some automatic system has already sent notifications to nearby users
[19:54] <Upu> Andrew_M6GTG do a live demo
[19:54] <Upu> do you have a working tracker ?
[19:55] <Andrew_M6GTG> Upu: sorry no, club are hoping to do launches next year, trying to drum up interest
[19:55] <Upu> ok
[19:55] <LazyLeopard> ...but will be covering it from a listener's POV
[19:55] <nats`> lunch time
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[19:56] <Andrew_M6GTG> I've got some video of screen when I tracked Stratodean showing updating of map/position on tracker, just hunting for some SDR recordings ;-)
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[19:57] <DL1SGP> Guten Abend Lunar_Lander, good luck for the presentation Andrew
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:59] <Andrew_M6GTG> \quit
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[20:06] <LeoBodnar> Something is coming our way (tick "Altitude" box) http://www.sat24.com/?ir=true&ra=false&region=eu
[20:08] <LeoBodnar> ABEND has a nostalgic feel to it
[20:10] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[20:10] <LeoBodnar> ...from IBM mainframe days
[20:12] <mfa298> I think novell netware had ABENDs as well
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[20:13] <mfa298> although that was probably influenced by the IBM mainframe days
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> Had Novell had their own Unix at the time?
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> Everybody had their own Unix version at the time...
[20:16] <mfa298> I think Netware was it's own thing - netware 3 (being the only one I've really done anything with) didn't look like the Unixs I've used.
[20:16] <mfa298> bit netware 3 was from mid 90's so may have borrowed terminology from elsewhere
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[20:21] <LeoBodnar> No, Netware wasn't but I think Novell at the time went mad and bought the rights to the UNIX name and started suing left and right
[20:21] <LeoBodnar> Those were strange times
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[20:23] <LeoBodnar> Ah, it was Novell UnixWare
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[20:34] <arko> LeoBodnar: http://www.clyde-space.com/products/spacecraft_batteries
[20:35] <arko> giant batteries
[20:35] <arko> but neat design
[20:35] <arko> they have the chemistry on the site
[20:35] <arko> http://www.clyde-space.com/products/spacecraft_batteries/useful_info_about_batteriesbatteries
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> Ah, the bodge guys
[20:38] <arko> i was curious about cubesat battery chemistry
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[20:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening all
[20:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> how's storm in UK?
[20:40] <Upu> tell you when I see it
[20:40] <Upu> bad further south apparently
[20:40] <Upu> not seen it here
[20:40] <arko> [insert Michael Fish joke]
[20:41] <Upu> my antenna is back where it should be
[20:41] <arko> hah
[20:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: :-)
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[20:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Not that bad 52.1mph @ 05:24 this morning
[20:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Only damage was to the roof
[20:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> of the bird table that blew over ;-)
[20:43] <LeoBodnar> arko: wft? their discharge graph clearly shows onset of Lithium electrode plating http://www.clyde-space.com/documents/1403
[20:43] <Upu> english problems :)
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[20:43] <Upu> Hurricane in the US: Board up the windows, get the sandbags in place, stock up on supplies, hide in the cellar and pray for salvation.
[20:43] <Upu> Hurricane in the UK: Ooh, better bring in the washing off the line.
[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> seen this Upu? http://www.sat24.com/?ir=true&ra=false&region=eu
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> check the altitude levels
[20:44] <bertrik> LeoBodnar: how can you tell that there's electrode plating?
[20:44] <Upu> if its green its bad*
[20:44] <Upu> *for Leo
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> Hurricane warning? Mmmm, after a cuppa maybe
[20:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> Normal jetstream for this time of year http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=jetstream;sess=
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> You know it when you see one :D
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> https://batteryworkshop.msfc.nasa.gov/presentations/1-Lithium_Plating_AZimmerman.pdf page 11
[20:47] <bertrik> thanks, I'll have a look
[20:50] <arko> hmm
[20:50] <arko> interesting
[20:50] <arko> it doesn't seem extreme
[20:50] <arko> but the fact that it's occuring isn't good news
[20:51] <arko> what bothers me is that they dont have a cycle graph
[20:51] <arko> voltage & capacity vs number of cycle
[20:52] <bertrik> so, it's the "bump" at around 20% discharge, right?
[20:52] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> Good battery is smooth
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> But I am not a chemist
[20:53] <arko> seems wired that they would cheap out on cubesat batteries
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[20:54] <LeoBodnar> To figure out if the battery is good you have to pretty much almost kill it
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> I can see the dilemma
[20:54] <arko> well, you do that to the batch right
[20:54] <arko> ?
[20:54] <arko> even we dont kill them
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[20:55] <SpeedEvil> For a cubesat - even buying 50 batteries, and cycling to death 48 of them wouldn't be silly
[20:56] <LeoBodnar> It's not really statistical analysis, I am happy to have 99 out 100 failure rate if that last one performs very well
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> (And you want to test the other two to maybe 10% of their cyclic life to make sure they're on the curve
[20:57] <LeoBodnar> But how do you know the remaining 2 are pukka ones?
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[20:57] <LeoBodnar> They probably know what they are doing
[20:57] <LeoBodnar> http://www.clyde-space.com/documents/414/414-large.jpg
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[20:58] <arko> what the hell
[20:58] <arko> is that ic upside down with kaynar wire!?
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[20:58] <LeoBodnar> two arko, two
[20:58] <arko> that should fail every g/shock test
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> arko: not if glued down :)
[20:59] <arko> here, that would fail at the initial inspection test
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[20:59] <arko> no way
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> But not ideal.
[20:59] <arko> that would never pass in our book
[20:59] <LeoBodnar> Since there are only two that makes it "all the ICs are upside down"
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> Not even really sane
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[21:02] <LeoBodnar> I can also see that large tantalum caps have smaller land pads that they should
[21:03] <adamgreig> the real question is why they are publishing photos of it
[21:04] <adamgreig> TIL: in C, a[b] == b[a], i.e. you can say int my_array[5]; 2[my_array] = 123;
[21:04] <adamgreig> the mind boggles
[21:04] <LeoBodnar> Yea, that is cool
[21:04] <adamgreig> "cool" was not the first word that came to mind
[21:05] <arko> wtf?
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[21:05] <LeoBodnar> I think this is even mentioned in K&R?
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[21:05] <arko> ah yes, the holy book of C
[21:06] <LeoBodnar> I read it but I never use C
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[21:06] <arko> assembly?
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> :D Grrrr
[21:07] <arko> haha
[21:07] <arko> after learning how the compilers for IAR work, C has been my choice for embedded systems
[21:07] <arko> you just have to be smart/careful
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> But I know a few hand gestures in C
[21:08] <arko> when coding it up, otherwise it could compile and function differently than you think
[21:08] <LeoBodnar> C: happily unaware
[21:08] <arko> haha
[21:08] <arko> i like asm, but somethings just take forever with it
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[21:10] <LeoBodnar> Took me awhile to realise that b++ is not always b+1
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[21:12] <Upu> it isn't ?
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[21:13] <LeoBodnar> if b is a pointer to e.g. int then b++ is b+2
[21:13] <adamgreig> (do you mean +4?)
[21:13] <adamgreig> (or +8? or what?)
[21:13] <adamgreig> +sizeof(int) ;)
[21:13] <LeoBodnar> Depends on platform, yeah on 32 bit system +4
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[21:16] <acidtech> 4>1@K9 45=L
[21:16] <LeoBodnar> ?@825B
[21:17] <LeoBodnar> How often does habitat pull the prediction dataset from NOAA?
[21:17] <acidtech> 345 2 0=3;88 <>6=> :C?8BL 35;89?
[21:17] <acidtech> 8;8 ;CGH5 H0@8:8 2>4>@>4>< 70?@02;OBL?
[21:18] <LeoBodnar> ;CGH5 35;89 4;O =0G0;0
[21:18] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: as often as they release it (4 times a day)
[21:19] <acidtech> LeoBodnar, 2 :0:>9 D8@<5 ?>:C?05HL 35;89?
[21:20] <LeoBodnar> O ?>:C?0; 745AL http://www.click4balloons.co.uk/helium-gas-499-c.asp
[21:21] <LeoBodnar> adamgreig: turns out day number has subtle influence on the results
[21:21] <adamgreig> huh?
[21:22] <LeoBodnar> I have run predictions for the wrong day
[21:22] <adamgreig> ah ;)
[21:22] <adamgreig> yes I've heard that getting the day right helps
[21:22] <DL1SGP> happens :D
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[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:26] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th8BCFLO9AM&list=UUxYwzRO26kB7GPi1qCRJqvw lol
[21:27] <acidtech> LeoBodnar, 0 H0@K <>6=> 157 A?@>A0 70?CA:0BL?
[21:27] <acidtech> 8;8 =C6=> @07@5H5=85?
[21:27] <DL1SGP> as long as we do not have news about some person running around with an LED lit party foil in UK 1 night before halloween we would not have to worry about LeoBodnar ^^
[21:27] <fsphil> important lesson there ibanezmatt13
[21:28] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[21:28] <LeoBodnar> acidtech: 2K 2 :0:>9 AB@0=5 A59G0A?
[21:29] <acidtech> UK
[21:29] <acidtech> IO95
[21:30] <LeoBodnar> http://www.ukhas.org.uk/guides:guidelines
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[21:30] <ibanezmatt13> evening chrisstubbs
[21:31] <ibanezmatt13> sorted that SD card, working perfectly
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> 5A;8 H0@ 2<5AB5 A ?>;57=>9 =03@C7:>9 C<5I05BAO 2 ?@545;K AD5@K 480<5B@0 2 <5B@0 2> 2A5E D070E ?>;5B0 B> @07@5H5=8O >B CAA =5 B@51C5BA]
[21:31] <chrisstubbs> Oo nice, what was up?
[21:31] <ibanezmatt13> The schematic :P
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> yo chrisstubbs
[21:31] <chrisstubbs> Hi Leo
[21:31] <ibanezmatt13> VSS pins didn't connect to GND
[21:31] <acidtech> B>5ABL 5A;8 H0@+?5@540BG8: C<5I05BAO 2 2< 480<5B@ B> <>6=> 40?
[21:31] <acidtech> A?0A81>
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> I forgot the burst diameter of those latex Qualatex you have tested
[21:32] <ibanezmatt13> soldered a small wire to connect them, everything's working fine now
[21:32] <LeoBodnar> 40
[21:32] <chrisstubbs> That looked right on the SCH, was it not routed?
[21:32] <ibanezmatt13> probably not :/
[21:32] <ibanezmatt13> ah well, fixed now
[21:32] <LeoBodnar> 8<59B5 2 284C GB> => <>65B @074CBLAO =0 2KA>B5
[21:34] <LeoBodnar> acidtech: http://ukhas.org.uk/
[21:35] <LeoBodnar> chrisstubbs: was it 1.2m that they burst at?
[21:35] Action: chrisstubbs needs an SSD
[21:35] <chrisstubbs> wait for me to warm up and I will check
[21:36] <LeoBodnar> k
[21:37] <chrisstubbs> 1.18m http://grab.by/rybS It was a pretty crude test but they seemed well away from the 2m limit
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[21:38] <chrisstubbs> Thinking of floating one LeoBodnar?
[21:39] <Willdude123> eroomde, you couldn't help me with one of the CS222 problems could you?
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[21:43] <DL7AD_> launched
[21:43] <DL1SGP> have a nice flight Sven
[21:43] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL7AD: keeping my fingers crossed :-)
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> yay best of luck :)
[21:45] <DL7AD_> this time i threw my sdr away.... now im using an FT-290R
[21:45] <DL1SGP> good idea
[21:46] <DL7AD_> this time the balloon already started to be fast from low altitude
[21:46] <DL7AD_> something arout 50kph at 30m
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[21:47] <LeoBodnar> cheers chrisstubbs
[21:49] <DL7AD_> elevation already less than 4°
[21:52] <tweetBot> @HabduinoProject: Prototype @Habduino flown in UK : http://t.co/R83YFUCHuw Yes we are still here just debugging new boards! #ukhas
[21:52] <Laurenceb__> hahaha arctic challenge rule 8
[21:54] <SP9UOB-Tom> night all
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[22:12] <acidtech> LeoBodnar, 0 :0:>9 D8@<K 8 @07<5@>2 2>74CH=K5 H0@K 8A?>;L7C5HL?
[22:13] <DL7AD> okay.... the poland caught it. so no more reason anymore to stay on the roof anymore.
[22:13] <Upu> acidtech 36" Qualatex
[22:14] <Upu> http://www.qualatex.com/pages/colorchart/microfoil.php
[22:14] <acidtech> thanks
[22:14] <Upu> don't thank me thank Google Translate :)
[22:14] <arko> woah they make pink
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[22:15] <fsphil> noooooooo
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[22:17] <DL7AD> somebody currently reading the chat receiving D-2
[22:17] <DL7AD> ?
[22:22] <arko> http://www.thefind.com/gifts/browse-mylar-hello-kitty-balloon
[22:23] <arko> someone please launch one of these
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[22:24] <DL7AD> arko: rofl... no but i thought to buy a round hello kitty balloon because it has been the largest one. :D
[22:24] <arko> haha
[22:25] <arko> it'd be amazing if it's the best possible balloon for picos
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[22:30] <acidtech> http://www.click4balloons.co.uk/f30---small-disposable-helium-gas-cylinder-fill-n-away-20829-p.asp how many 36" baloons can be filled up with this cylinder?
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[22:31] <arko> 8.9cu-ft of He
[22:31] <Upu> 2 and a bit I think
[22:31] <Upu> I filled one
[22:32] <Upu> hoping there is enough left for another
[22:33] <LeoBodnar> Fully inflated 36" qualatex is 3.5cu-ft but I am launching them 50% full which is about 1.7cu-ft
[22:33] <LeoBodnar> so I'd guess 4-5
[22:34] <Upu> super
[22:34] <LeoBodnar> depends on the payload weight and free lift of course
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[22:36] <acidtech> so, what is the diameter of it when it is half inflated?
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[22:36] <LeoBodnar> Same :D
[22:36] <arko> just squishy
[22:37] <LeoBodnar> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-13/Images/1.jpg
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[22:37] <acidtech> 36"?
[22:37] <LeoBodnar> that's the one
[22:37] <DL7AD> www.dl7ad.de/balloons/D-2
[22:38] <LeoBodnar> Everything sounds big when given in inches
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[22:39] <LeoBodnar> acidtech: you need to get the right free lift when inflating, not size or gas volume
[22:40] <LeoBodnar> http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data last chart
[22:42] <heathkid> what's a good ratio for lift -vs- payload weight for (a) fast ascent to burst (b) regular launch - whatever that is (c) floater?
[22:42] <heathkid> say I have a 500g payload
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[22:43] <heathkid> well, everything below the neck of the balloon
[22:45] <LeoBodnar> what balloon is that?
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[22:48] <LeoBodnar> I can't see much point using ISS for balloon comms
[22:49] <LeoBodnar> if it just digipeats packets
[22:50] <LeoBodnar> Which means there should be other people in its communication range
[22:51] <LeoBodnar> And if there are other people in its communication range then these people are blasting at ISS with 50W with 12el yagis
[22:51] <LeoBodnar> Which means balloons has no chance to get through
[22:52] <eroomde_> you've more chance of being heard if you shout louder
[22:52] <LeoBodnar> Over Pacific balloons can possibly get through but nobody listens to digipeated packets
[22:52] <LeoBodnar> Q.E.D
[22:53] <adamgreig> not clear that everyone all the time is blasting the ISS
[22:53] <LeoBodnar> APRS sucks
[22:53] <adamgreig> didn't you just implement APRS?
[22:53] <LeoBodnar> It's so ugly
[22:53] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[22:54] <LeoBodnar> It is still ugly and sucks
[22:55] <LeoBodnar> Can ISS store and forward packets?
[22:55] <DL7AD> no
[22:56] <LeoBodnar> I am not very much into packet radio.
[22:57] <acidtech> what about iss amateur tv? is it working
[22:57] <acidtech> ?
[22:58] <LeoBodnar> somebody mentioned this subject here earlier today!
[22:59] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-24672979 - wow
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> third from the last - the spitfire - amazing
[23:00] <LeoBodnar> Oh, they startup lovely!
[23:01] <chrisstubbs> Wow, now thats a wallpaper!
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&hl=en&site=imghp&tbs=simg:CAESWhpYCxCwjKcIGjwKOggBEhSWA5MDoAOVA6oDqwOCBIEElAWABBog1JyQkFy2p6TUdKj2edP2k8zzeq696KNDmT1NbUuRCx4MCxCOrv4IGgoKCAgBEgSXlDodDA&q=spitfire&tbm=isch&ei=R-1uUrzuCYijhgfD5IDYBQ&ved=0CDcQsw4&biw=1280&bih=857
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> interesting.
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> It sort of matches, and gets some very wrong
[23:04] <DL7AD> aren't there more receivers than that only one?
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[23:09] <SpeedEvil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/defenceimages/10477411446/sizes/o/in/photostream/ - large image
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[23:17] Nick change: MichaelC1 -> MichaelC
[23:20] <LeoBodnar> SpeedEvil: this guys is a good photographer, it looks like it has been hand-printed, a bit of burning and dodging here and there
[23:20] <LeoBodnar> very analogue
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> And the third from last - yes - it's HDR - but it's done well.
[23:22] <LeoBodnar> *as if it were hand-printed
[23:24] <LeoBodnar> Airborne use of amateur radio is prohibited in Latvia
[23:25] <acidtech> Who is from latvia?
[23:28] <LeoBodnar> a few people, x-f
[23:28] <LeoBodnar> D-2 is heading for it
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[23:42] <Steve_G0TDJ_AFK> Please someone tell me Aura was recorded data and I did't miss a flight....
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[23:49] <Laurenceb__> HDR done well?
[23:50] <Laurenceb__> this needs to be seen
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[23:55] <Laurenceb__> where is this photo?
[23:56] hp_ (~quassel@c-71-228-250-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) joined #highaltitude.
[00:00] --- Tue Oct 29 2013