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[00:19] <Lunar_Lander> still someone on?
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> me
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> Sort of
[00:19] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[00:19] <Lunar_Lander> I think it's done http://gerblook.org/pcb/tc7sZG3qGmbDEMXrew73ZB :)
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
[00:20] <enkidu> reduce amount of vias so it will be less expensive
[00:21] <SpeedEvil> Lot of stitching
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:22] <enkidu> near sma groups of 6 - 2 per group is more than enough. LM2973 - no need of full row there, two will do its job
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> Unless vias are free
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[00:23] <enkidu> unless, but my manufacturer charges for every drilling
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[00:23] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:23] <Lunar_Lander> adjusting
[00:24] Action: SpeedEvil waits for SpaceX - sunday/monday
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> I think they are launching with the recovery test stage this time
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> Fingers crossed
[00:26] <enkidu> do you know any place where I should look for generic 5.25 module case?
[00:30] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/vqU6cdz7mJHGY4LFEnJB57
[00:31] <enkidu> now better. I should open Paint and fix it further ;)
[00:39] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[00:39] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/PXfTdBKdsb6Q2cUaGDwMQm
[00:40] <enkidu> that was very important change ;)
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[00:42] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[00:45] <Lunar_Lander> final adjustment http://gerblook.org/pcb/mr8XKR9CGePvDHyweBcyB8
[00:47] <enkidu> actually why is R14 so far from this IRF?
[00:47] <enkidu> (I like small PCBs so much)
[00:47] <Lunar_Lander> ah that was by accident, I'll bring it in further
[00:48] <enkidu> my smallest PCB was 3 mm wide and 22 mm long
[00:48] <enkidu> led backlight with BGA driver
[00:48] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:50] <enkidu> http://www.amazon.com/Cremax-ToughArmor-2-5-Inch-Mobile-MB996SP-6SB/dp/B009I87Q2U/ref=pd_cp_pc_0
[00:50] <enkidu> insane price
[00:52] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/mNkxdg3yPrqKHVuLBegiGk
[00:53] <enkidu> actually I was thinking about rotating it 180 degrees and putting qust near IRF pins
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[00:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:55] <enkidu> and for real you dont need to put so many vias around SMA socket if it is not going to be over 1 ghz
[00:56] <enkidu> in real case we have not this amount of vias on GSM/GPS plate of commercial car tracker
[00:57] <enkidu> if you are developing PCB for yourself only it doesnt matter, but if you want to release something that will be produced in mass scale - it matters
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[00:58] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:58] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/KLd4zfwPEAmdM9hUFNybdY
[00:58] <Lunar_Lander> (The SMA really only is 434 MHz) :)
[00:59] <enkidu> also remember, that on double layer PCB tht pins are acting as vias too
[01:00] <enkidu> only place vias on sides on HF lines if they exceeding length of 1/4 wavelength
[01:00] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[01:00] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
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[01:01] <TATA> or use microstrip and place no vias
[01:01] <TATA> but you need a blank area around your line then, if you have little space it's not so good
[01:01] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:02] <TATA> but for your SMA it would have worked
[01:02] <TATA> probably any sort of connection would have worked for 1cm of 400MHz
[01:02] <Lunar_Lander> ag
[01:02] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:03] <enkidu> drilling one via here is just one cent
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[01:03] <TATA> BTW, it is recommended to connect crystal capacitors C5 and C6 negative side together
[01:03] <TATA> and only to ground at one point
[01:03] <TATA> it reduces phase noise injected by ground currents
[01:03] <TATA> doesnt really matter for a cpu but just saying
[01:03] <Lunar_Lander> ah thanks
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[01:05] <TATA> Some guy at university got burned by via charges...
[01:05] <TATA> He used some autorouting tool which made a simple pcb (hand layout would take 1 hour) have 780 vias
[01:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:05] <TATA> costing 5 ct each
[01:06] <Lunar_Lander> that's ba
[01:06] <Lunar_Lander> +d
[01:06] <enkidu> 5ct? expensive layout, multilayer?
[01:06] <TATA> for 20 boards it cost 800€
[01:06] <TATA> enkidu: no, rogers rf substrate
[01:06] <TATA> which he didn't need, but bought anyway
[01:06] <enkidu> argh
[01:07] <TATA> total price was something of 1500€ for the 20 boards
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> TATA: haha
[01:08] <TATA> It was a simple microprocessor circuit ffs. But he was a theoretical guy and he tought 'ah a digital signal is a square wave so it has many GHz of harmonics'
[01:08] <Lunar_Lander> TATA, btw at hackvana, vias do not cost extra
[01:08] <TATA> so it needs good pcb substrate
[01:08] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[01:08] <TATA> Same for seedstudio
[01:08] <TATA> its 10$ for 10 5x5cm boards
[01:08] <enkidu> put him to sleep
[01:08] <TATA> or 26$ for 10 10x10cm
[01:08] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:09] <TATA> Good deal
[01:09] <TATA> university mostly uses eurocircuits
[01:09] <TATA> slightly better quality, but much more expensive
[01:10] <enkidu> I am etching most of boards myself using photoprocess
[01:10] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[01:11] <enkidu> but multilayers are out of my range, so I let it done in a factory
[01:11] <TATA> Another 'interesting' story, we had some student who designed a patch antenna. A simple metal plate (etched on pcb) above another metal plate (solid brass). She had the simulation set to 10um precision
[01:11] <TATA> And she finally had it made to 10um precision!
[01:11] <TATA> also costing quite a bit
[01:11] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[01:12] <TATA> To find out, 300€ later, that some value in the cad program was incorrect and that it was made for the wrong frequency
[01:13] <enkidu> oops
[01:14] <enkidu> anyways I would not trust antenna done on fiberglass epoxy PCB
[01:14] <TATA> It was RO4003 IIRC
[01:14] <enkidu> most of them have dielectric constant related with humidity
[01:15] <TATA> I have only used PIFA PCB antennas so far
[01:15] <TATA> they seem to work with cheap FR4
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[01:16] <Lunar_Lander> TATA, OHHHHH
[01:17] <enkidu> Ive seen tv antennas etched on PCB so far
[01:17] <enkidu> mostly biquad ones
[01:18] <enkidu> microstrips are good for wifi, but even - first test could be done with regular PCB (i believe)
[01:19] <enkidu> using distances
[01:19] <TATA> Patch antenna's don't work very well on lossy substrate, the field strength below the patch is very high
[01:19] <TATA> causing poor radiation efficiency
[01:19] <TATA> I like how you can pull the copper foil of RO4xxx
[01:20] <TATA> I have used eurocircuits board up to 6GHz without major problems
[01:20] <TATA> the loss starts to become annoying though
[01:20] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[01:20] <Lunar_Lander> can you do microstrip lines with EAGLE?
[01:20] <TATA> Dunno, it's just a trace with the correct width so it should be possible to do it manually
[01:21] <TATA> even if you cannot give it specific drc rules
[01:22] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[01:22] <TATA> Altium is really nice, you can give a certain class of traces special properties
[01:22] <TATA> So for example you get more clearance around high voltage traces
[01:22] <TATA> Kinda expensive, unfortunately
[01:23] <enkidu> for high voltage traces good isolation is pcb milling
[01:23] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[01:24] <Lunar_Lander> good that I heard about that before failing
[01:24] <TATA> Costs more though
[01:24] <enkidu> costs more - but more secure
[01:24] <TATA> true
[01:24] <TATA> Some chinese electronics is really scary
[01:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:25] <Lunar_Lander> probably the board already failed
[01:25] <enkidu> milling of 12mm line costs less than two metalised vias
[01:25] <TATA> I have seen a usb charger where the live was ~0.1mm from the usb 5v output
[01:25] <TATA> without solder mask, so if some piece of conducting dust bridges it the output becomes live
[01:26] <enkidu> Ive disassembled failed lappy charger (original one) without any proper clearance
[01:26] <enkidu> and one "el cheapo" replacement that was done properly
[01:26] <TATA> Yeah, depends on how lucky you are probably
[01:26] <enkidu> but not packed with 10 additional output filters
[01:27] <TATA> this usb charger was included with some stupid accessory
[01:27] <TATA> I think it was a usb led
[01:27] <TATA> costing 1$ for the led+charger
[01:27] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[01:27] <Lunar_Lander> probably the board already failed
[01:27] <TATA> what you mean?
[01:28] <enkidu> funny thing: sometimes flux may cause short
[01:29] <Lunar_Lander> oh nice to hear that as well
[01:29] <enkidu> we have been making power modules using tinyswitch. this little thing is sensitive to 2uA current on enable pin, turning on undervolt detection
[01:29] <Lunar_Lander> yeah the Idea to make an SMD board probably was flawed all the time
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[01:30] <TATA> I was reading some papers (I'm in telecom/microwaves) and there was some paper for a 'High resolution through wall imaging device'
[01:30] <TATA> So I assumed that it would be radar.
[01:30] <enkidu> SMD is very nice, just you have to keep an eye on few more things
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[01:30] <TATA> But it was a drill to make a hole in the wall, and a pinhole camera
[01:30] <TATA> became clear when I saw there (very good) COLOR pictures...
[01:30] <enkidu> :)
[01:31] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[01:32] <enkidu> Lunar_Lander: in your application there are just little optimisation, but it is in general failure-proof
[01:32] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[01:33] <TATA> I prefer SMD for manual assembly
[01:33] <enkidu> I like it too
[01:33] <TATA> Turning the board around to solder is a pity with through hold
[01:33] <TATA> and drilling the holes also sucks
[01:33] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:34] <enkidu> only parts I am using in THT: sockets, leds and capacitors
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[01:34] <enkidu> sometimes diodes or optocouplers
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[01:38] <enkidu> for boards etched myself sometimes I am using flatbed scanner
[01:39] <TATA> why capacitors
[01:39] <TATA> You mean larger electrolyic ones?
[01:40] <Lunar_Lander> thanks again, good night!
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[01:42] <enkidu> yes, large ones
[01:43] <enkidu> better to keep all large things on one side
[01:44] <TATA> Ah
[01:44] <TATA> I am going to bed
[01:44] <TATA> byte
[01:44] <TATA> bye
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[01:44] <enkidu> bye
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[03:57] Action: enkidu wonders, if QFH for 70cm band would be nice way for omnidirectional reception
[04:03] <Darkside> we use cross dipoles on our chase cars
[04:03] <Darkside> for the hemispherical radiation pattern
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[05:24] <enkidu> idiots everywhere. some moron stolen cap from water pipes
[05:26] <enkidu> okay, time for me to proceed with moving
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[06:43] <ibanezmatt13> morning :)
[06:45] <craag> morning
[06:45] <ibanezmatt13> We're in the process of moving house so I've not been able to do much in the last few days :P
[06:46] <craag> That's fair enough!
[06:47] <ibanezmatt13> Yea, I was still assembling beds at 11 last night -_-
[06:48] <craag> so still plenty of unopened boxes around?
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[06:48] <craag> at least it appears you have internet!
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13> i'm at my grandma's :p
[06:48] <craag> ah...
[06:49] <ibanezmatt13> only because i dont have a matteres
[06:49] <ibanezmatt13> mattress*
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[07:22] <DL7AD> morning
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[08:01] <x-f> morning
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[08:01] <x-f> being about 850km from Gliwice, PL, what are my chances of receiving Tom's etc HF trackers on Saturday?
[08:02] <x-f> am i too close?
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[08:07] <Darkside> x-f: what frquency, and what pwoer
[08:07] <Darkside> and what is your HF noise floor
[08:08] <fsphil> it's on 10m
[08:08] <x-f> Darkside, 21.401 MHz, 1W
[08:08] <fsphil> oh no it's not
[08:08] <Darkside> 15m
[08:08] <Darkside> you wont hear it skywave
[08:08] <Darkside> way too close
[08:08] <x-f> ah so :/
[08:08] <Darkside> might hear it in the US :P
[08:09] <fsphil> I heard Bill's last HF flight. didn't manage a decode
[08:09] <Darkside> unless you get line of sight, you won't hear it. and even if you do have line of sight, you may still not hear it if your noise floor is too high
[08:10] <x-f> i don't know about noise floor, it wouldn't be my radio, just trying to get local hams more interested in HAB activities
[08:10] <Darkside> mm
[08:10] <Darkside> well you may hear it if you get line of sight
[08:10] <Darkside> but if you don't have LOS, you wont hear it
[08:10] <Darkside> not on 15m anyway
[08:10] <fsphil> it would have to get pretty high up
[08:10] <Darkside> 30m or 40m, maybe
[08:12] <x-f> meh, to get LOS, it should be at 65km
[08:12] <Darkside> hh
[08:12] <Darkside> hehe
[08:12] <Darkside> yeah
[08:13] <Darkside> you could use an overseas websdr, but most of those either A) don't have good antennas
[08:13] <Darkside> or B) have high nois floors
[08:14] <fsphil> I'm 1779 km from the launch site
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[08:19] <Herman__> GM all from a suny delft
[08:19] <fsphil> morning from cloudy cookstown :)
[08:23] <Herman__> het is dak antenne weather
[08:25] <Herman__> dak =roof
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[08:33] <PH3V> :-)
[08:34] <PH3V> GM from Roosendaal
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[09:51] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
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[09:53] <DL7AD> Good morning
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[10:00] <Steve_2e0vet> whats the website address to check notams
[10:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://notaminfo.com/nationalmap
[10:00] Action: fsphil checks if his is there
[10:00] <fsphil> (prediction: no)
[10:00] <fsphil> oh look, it's not there
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[10:02] <eroomde> what are you launching fsphil?
[10:02] <fsphil> Pi + Camera, nothing too exciting. It's a demo for a local radio club's conference
[10:03] <fsphil> though if I can I might try using the Thor mode on it
[10:03] <fsphil> and tempted to put a wifi module on there, run it in master mode
[10:03] <fsphil> challange people to connect to it
[10:07] <mfa298> could be interesting to compare how Master mode works vs Ad-Hoc over a distance.
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[10:07] <fsphil> yea
[10:07] <fsphil> did you find out if adhoc needs a two-way contact first before it works?
[10:07] Action: mfa298 still waiting for a wifi card with external antenna to arrive to do some range testing
[10:07] <mfa298> I think I've found the tools to check but not done any real investigation yet.
[10:08] <fsphil> none of the wifi cards I have work in adhoc mode on linux
[10:08] <fsphil> I've got some ancient pcmcia cards somewhere that might
[10:08] <mfa298> Ad-Hoc does send beacons but that makes some sense (you need to see the network)
[10:08] <mfa298> the cheap rtl ones I've got seemed to do Ad-Hoc mode.
[10:09] <mfa298> I had one of these on fedora www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280914854707
[10:09] <mfa298> and just ordered another to go on the pi. (previously had similar chipset but no external antenna)
[10:10] <fsphil> man that's tiny
[10:10] <mfa298> the ones with no external antenna are even smaller (so I doubt have much of an antenna so don't seem that sensible for range testing)
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[10:11] <mfa298> I was going to run that antenna at home on the pi and then try wanding somewhere probably with a patch antenna and see if I can see it.
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[11:30] <f5vnf> dongles arrived yipee, of to the shack for a play
[11:31] <PE9PE-Rob> @ f5vnf Enjoy your dongles.
[11:32] <f5vnf> can i log in to this irc on my other computer at the same time as being on this one
[11:33] <PE9PE-Rob> Don't know Bryan, just give it a try i would say.
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[11:50] <fsphil> f5vnf: yes but with a different nick
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[12:05] <Bo_DK> Yoo... is there a kind soul here that can help with some programming issues?
[12:05] <Bo_DK> i'm dead in the water.... close to giving up
[12:05] <Bo_DK> wanted to build a platform that can track a HAB
[12:06] <Bo_DK> modded craag 's habrotate to control servos
[12:06] <Bo_DK> got all kinds of persmiision issues etc etc
[12:07] <mfa298> if you're trying to open serial ports you'll either (good solution) need to be in a suitable group or (bad solution) run the application as root.
[12:08] <mfa298> on the raspberry pi I had to add the pi user to the dialout group. chances are you have to do something similar on the BBB.
[12:08] <Bo_DK> well
[12:09] <Bo_DK> just not sure on much
[12:09] <Bo_DK> i know hardware is ok
[12:09] <Bo_DK> i somewhat "think" python script is ok
[12:10] <mfa298> linux uses a reasonably decent permissions model, if you want to talk to hardware you need the right permissions (which you might not have by default).
[12:10] <Bo_DK> hehe
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[12:11] <mfa298> if you're getting permission issues then chances are you don't currently have suitable permissions so you need to fix that.
[12:11] <Bo_DK> well... think project is dead.... i cant figure it... and i dont expect that the soloution is spoonfeed to me
[12:11] <mfa298> if you're trying to access a serial port then you probably need to add your user to a suitable group.
[12:12] <Bo_DK> i can give ssh access....
[12:12] <Bo_DK> not worried about security
[12:12] <craag> Bo_DK: What happens when you run the script as root?
[12:12] <Bo_DK> still have an idea that this project would be very welcomed in the end
[12:13] <mfa298> Bo_DK: I've practically spoonfed you the likely answer twice!
[12:13] <Bo_DK> mfa298: yeah.. understand the answer....
[12:14] <mfa298> so check what permissions you need to access the hardware (assuming serial look at the device) and make sure you're in a suitable group.
[12:17] <nats`> if you use an usb adapter either you can add a udev rules or you add your user to the right group
[12:23] <Bo_DK> well
[12:23] <Bo_DK> gps chip is connected as serial
[12:24] <Bo_DK> to read from that i need to fire 3 commands as root after login
[12:24] <Bo_DK> let me find those
[12:24] <Bo_DK> first one is: sudo chmod 666 /sys/devices/bone_capemgr.9/slots
[12:24] <Bo_DK> of course it asks for pass
[12:25] <Bo_DK> its same file/folder it complains about for the servos part
[12:25] <Bo_DK> so i assume that user needs to be root so command can be fired without sudo
[12:27] <mfa298> changing permissions like that will probably require root access
[12:27] <mfa298> although chmod 666 feels like the wrong way of doing it.
[12:27] <Bo_DK> it was the only way i could figure access to gps
[12:28] <Bo_DK> after that line i do: sudo echo ttyO1_armhf.com > /sys/devices/bone_capemgr*/slots
[12:28] <Bo_DK> finaly
[12:28] <Bo_DK> ...
[12:28] <Bo_DK> sudo gpsd /dev/ttyO1
[12:28] <Bo_DK> and to test... cgps
[12:29] <nats`> if you don't mind about security why not
[12:29] <Bo_DK> that is what i did just to test gps is working
[12:29] <nats`> but chmoding a system file like that is a little rude
[12:29] <nats`> :)
[12:29] <Bo_DK> hehe
[12:29] <Bo_DK> as i said... only way i could figure
[12:29] <Bo_DK> tried to put those in rc.local... did not work
[12:30] <nats`> I don't understand your gps is simply plugged on a "native" serial port ?
[12:30] <mfa298> if it's going in rc.local (assuming that get's run at startup) then they should work but you shouldn't need the sudo bit
[12:30] <Bo_DK> sudo is needed on first one at least
[12:31] <Bo_DK> nats yes it is
[12:31] <mfa298> nats`: my understanding is that's it's native serial on the BeagleBone Black - which might require some stuff to enable the UARTs
[12:31] <nats`> ohhh oky
[12:31] <mfa298> if it's in rc.local then you shouldn't need sudo.
[12:31] <nats`> I though about a "standard" arch
[12:31] <Bo_DK> mfa298: yes... serial needs to be enabled
[12:31] <nats`> are you sure there are no system script already made for that ?
[12:31] <Bo_DK> it does not work from rc.local either way
[12:32] <mfa298> rc.local by default will be run as root so sudo will not be doing anything useful (apart from possibly waiting for a password)
[12:32] <Bo_DK> so far i just know that those 3 makes gps tick
[12:32] <mfa298> depending on the linux install rc.local might not get used anymore
[12:32] <nats`> mfa298 sudo when you're already root don't skip the password ?
[12:33] <nats`> my advice here would be to buy a usb to serial adapter and put a udev rule to render it RW
[12:33] <mfa298> nats`: not sure, not something I've ever tried.
[12:33] <nats`> less system modification
[12:34] <eroomde> the udev rule would eb the right way to do it, i think. that's what i've always done be it gps or microcontroller programmers or whatever
[12:34] <mfa298> if the BBB platform is well designed I'd hope there's a nice easy flag you can set somewhere for bootup to enable the serial ports at bootup. But you'll need someone that knows the BBB hardware for that.
[12:34] <Bo_DK> yeah....
[12:35] <Bo_DK> but well... project is just going to take longer than i expected
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[12:35] <mfa298> maybe find a group of BBB users to ask, they should have a better idea of how to use the hardware than most of us do.
[12:35] <Bo_DK> an usb-serial would be a fix... but then just more hardware... right now it allmost fits the size of a pack of smokes
[12:36] <eroomde> Bo_DK, no surprises there, they always do, especially if you have to learn all the stuff new. you were in no place to make a decent estimate of how long it would take before you started, it sounds like (which is fine, same for all of us trying new things)
[12:36] <Bo_DK> mfa298: yeah.... been in #beagle not placing my feet there again... got the rude answer: read the f...ing manual and figure it yourself
[12:37] <mfa298> in which case you're probably on your own as almost no one here uses the BBB
[12:38] <Bo_DK> it was worth a try
[12:38] <mfa298> standard project time estimation fix, Estimate a time, double it, then increase the units used by an order of magnitude (so 1 week -> 2 months)
[12:38] <mfa298> #beagle is probably the right place to ask
[12:39] <Bo_DK> could have gone for raspi... but not enough power to decode
[12:39] <Bo_DK> that is going to be added after antenna aiming is in place
[12:39] <eroomde> a pi should have bags of cpu to decode rtty
[12:39] <eroomde> by like a factor of 10
[12:39] <fsphil> indeedy
[12:40] <fsphil> fldigi on the Pi spends most of its cpu time doing the interface
[12:40] <fsphil> not the modem itself
[12:40] <mfa298> if only I could persaude rtl_fm -U to do something decent I'd be in a position to try something.
[12:41] <mfa298> matt's java app seems to work happily on the pi, but I've failed getting a usb soundcard to work.
[12:41] <Bo_DK> hmm... so the decode part is running on pit ?
[12:41] <mfa298> and that's java - not a language known for it's performance
[12:41] <Bo_DK> is that a cli app?
[12:42] <mfa298> I don't think anyone has got a pi decoding yet but all the bits are there and it should be possible
[12:42] <fsphil> I'd started hacking a cli-version of fldigi, but that died pretty quickly
[12:43] <eroomde> wrong kind of hacking?
[12:43] <Bo_DK> if i should say anything... and know it sound folish etc etc.....
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[12:43] <fsphil> indeed. computers and axes don't mix
[12:43] <Darkside> fsphil: youc an already use fldigi cli
[12:43] <Darkside> you can run it in a no-gui mode
[12:43] <Darkside> and control it entirely via xmlrpc
[12:43] <Bo_DK> i have 4 more boards for this expansion i have made for the BBB
[12:43] <fsphil> oh typical, I was re-inventing the wheel
[12:44] <Bo_DK> so anyone that pitch in to get it working will get those populated
[12:44] <Bo_DK> heck
[12:44] <Bo_DK> even a complete platform
[12:44] <fsphil> someone needs to write a libsdr
[12:44] Action: fsphil checks if that already exists
[12:44] <eroomde> gnuradio?
[12:45] <eroomde> Bo_DK, chillax
[12:45] <Bo_DK> i know that running on a BBB does not help it much since not many are using it
[12:45] <eroomde> accept it will take a while
[12:45] <eroomde> and go back the the beginnings to learn stuff
[12:45] <Bo_DK> but think still this could be awesome to have
[12:45] <eroomde> i agree
[12:45] <galjo> I'm using Raspberry Pi and I want to send telemtry data over RTTY to the ground. Our group has problems with code, how to put GPS plain text to RTTY. Can anyone confirm if is this code suitable: https://www.dropbox.com/s/450k8ohdcr0djgg/GPS.py
[12:45] <mfa298> there's a library as part of the rtl code
[12:45] <fsphil> gnuradio seems very heavy for the Pi. but I guess that's SDR in general
[12:45] <Bo_DK> complete compact unit that can track and decode
[12:46] <Bo_DK> just setup and hit a button to start
[12:46] <Bo_DK> select payload and leave it
[12:46] <eroomde> so for example, several people have told you to add the user to a group to save having to sudo. do you understand what that means? if not, go and have a read up on groups and ownerships in linux. if you don't understand any part of the instruction to make the gps work that you have so far, go and read up on them and play with them and try out different things
[12:46] <darkstar-2001> On my BBB I installed debian unstable and run gnuradio and rtl_tcp on it. Not done any decoding. I've also used the Adafruit GPIO python library - which I'll replace with some C at some point when I have time.
[12:47] <mfa298> galjo: the standard approach people use on the Pi for rtty is to use the UART (as well as using the UART for gps)
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> mfa298: I may be misremembering - but IIRC the Pi UART does not support 50bps out
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> only 300 as lowest
[12:48] <mfa298> for rtty on a GPIO pin you need to do fairly accurate timing (I've done this in C++ but it needs to have a high priority thread)
[12:48] <fsphil> I ordered a BBB through work, with the theory that we might use it for "something"
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> http://pythonhosted.org/RPIO/pwm_py.html
[12:48] <mfa298> I think some people have had it work at 50bd but not everyone.
[12:48] <galjo> mfa298: Can you tel me what's would be suitable for me, cuz am searching over net and I cant found anything
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> Should be fairly easily modifieable to do submicrosecond accurate DMA RS232
[12:50] <mfa298> galjo: there's some info on http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:raspberrypi although I don't think there are any links from there to python code.
[12:51] <fsphil> galjo: you may (will) find that software delays on the Pi will be unreliable
[12:51] <galjo> This delays I can change in code
[12:51] <daveake> I've used it at 50 baud for testing and it seemed fine. Back when I started on the Pi 50 baud seemed unreliable but may have been my code
[12:52] <Bo_DK> that link was for a thing to send up with a baloon right?
[12:52] <galjo> If for mine, yes
[12:52] <Bo_DK> or does the same issues simply apply at decode end?
[12:52] <mfa298> galjo: the issue is that even though your code says delay 0.01, the os will give you 0.01+random unknown value
[12:53] <eroomde> Bo_DK, for decode you assume the radio receiver or soundcard or whatever you're using has something in it with an accurate clock
[12:53] <galjo> So what can I do?
[12:53] <eroomde> arduino
[12:53] <eroomde> or just any old microcontroller
[12:54] <eroomde> but i presume the pi's serial ports had their baud rate set in hardware?
[12:54] <eroomde> (i have no idea so sorry if that's wrong)
[12:54] <mfa298> as is mentioned on that page the standard approach is to connect both the gps and ntx2 to the uart and then use that (you'll need to change baud rates between gps and ntx2)
[12:55] <galjo> I have Columbus v-800 reciever and ntx2 transmitter
[12:55] <mfa298> you can try using a gpio pin but you'll want to do a lot of testing - probably with a logic analyser to check how good the timing is.
[12:55] <galjo> We're going to try it with oscilator
[12:56] <galjo> *oscillator in english
[12:57] <mfa298> assuming this is for a balloon payload you'll want to check your GPS module is suitable. Most don't work at the altitudes balloons go to.
[12:58] <galjo> It doesn't work over 18 km but for me is enough. All I want is to find it
[12:58] <mfa298> if it goes over 18km will it recover when it comes back below 18km?
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[12:59] <galjo> That's a question
[12:59] <enkidu> re
[12:59] <mfa298> most people here use the uBlox - which can be configured to work up to 50km
[12:59] <daveake> Better if you know where it is throughout the flight, then you've got a better chance of getting to where it lands before someone finds it and walks/drives off with it
[13:00] <galjo> I know that, is there any other option with mine GPS or I need another one (uBlox)
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[13:00] <mfa298> if you're using the standard dl-fldigi /spacenear.us setup having data throughout the flight should help get some decent predictions as well so you know where to head during the flight.
[13:02] <eroomde> yeah, i highly recommend having gps the whole time
[13:02] <eroomde> so much more reliable
[13:02] <eroomde> say it died after burst, you can at least get a good enough prediction from the last know burst point to get close enough to perhaps see it visually or at least hear it if the antennas has been damaged
[13:06] <galjo> If I buy uBlox I need to connect Tx with NTX2?
[13:07] <mfa298> the normal way of connecting the uBlox is to the onboard serial port
[13:07] <mfa298> so they need to share the port (making it hard to use gpsd)
[13:08] <mfa298> I just realised you're using a USB gps at the moment, when I saw ttyACM0 I assumed it was the onboard serial (ttyAMA0)
[13:09] <galjo> Yes thats true it is ttyACM0
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[13:11] <galjo> If I buy uBLOX MAX-7C, do I have to make script that will transform gps to rtty
[13:12] <mfa298> like most gps modules they send out NMEA sentences so the standard approard is open the serial port, wait for a suitable string, close the serial port, parse the string and then send the rtty
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[13:13] <galjo> Can you tell me how to send string to rtty
[13:13] <mfa298> if you hadn't found it before most people get their uBlox and NTX2 modules from http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_60
[13:14] <mfa298> if you're using the uart you just open the uart with suitable settings and send data.
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[13:15] <mfa298> if you're trying to toggle the gpio pin take a look at what's done in the arduino guide http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[13:15] <daveake> echo "Wow this is easy" > /dev/ttyAMA0
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[13:16] <galjo> Oh thank for that daveake
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[13:17] <daveake> Also investigate stty to set baud rate etc
[13:17] <daveake> e.g. stty 50 < /dev/ttyAMA0
[13:18] <galjo> that mean it will be baud rate 50 when I send this: echo "Wow this is easy" > /dev/ttyAMA0
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[13:56] <darkstar-2001> Could a star tracker work at, say, >30,000m during daylight? Or is the sky still pretty bright?
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[14:01] <enkidu> it is high enough to make air dust invisible on photos I think. You can see blue atmosphere edge on photos, so probably pointing camera upwards could work... if there were no balloon
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[14:05] <darkstar-2001> OK. So a 'perhaps'. No one has tried it. And the balloon may well get in the way. I'd noticed the sky looked dark in peoples photos - but not seen any stars (cos they want their cameras to point down!).
[14:05] <eroomde> i think perhaps
[14:05] <eroomde> someone in my old group did some work in this area
[14:06] <eroomde> he thought about 28km would be adequate
[14:06] <eroomde> we did try it
[14:06] <eroomde> but i think the results were inconclusive for some unrelated reason
[14:06] <darkstar-2001> Sods law.
[14:07] <darkstar-2001> OK, I'll continue to ponder.
[14:08] <darkstar-2001> Ta.
[14:10] <eroomde> i would highly recommend it as an idea, if you're considering it
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[14:13] Nick change: darkstar-20011 -> darkstar-2001
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[14:18] <SpeedEvil> Darkside: It depends.
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> darkstar-2001:
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> darkstar-2001: You can see some stars from the ground.
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> Under the right conditions.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Certainly with binoculars pointed in the right direction in a clear sky
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Pointing them is hard.
[14:21] <darkstar-2001> OK. Yeah, its a signal to noise problem. I want to make the noise as low as possible to make the problem 'easy'.
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> Also - there is the obvious answer
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> There is a rather easy star to track with no signal-noise issues at all
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> That + down from accel + gyro + gps + clock gives you a pretty good orientation solution
[14:22] <darkstar-2001> Yeah, but there's only one of them....
[14:23] <darkstar-2001> And add in a 3d magnetometer.
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> well - that helps too of course - I was meaning if you weren't wanting to use the magnetic field - as you were measuring it for example
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> If you can pick the day - then you have sun+moon
[14:24] <eroomde> it's actually quite hard to be accurate with the sun
[14:24] <eroomde> it's so big
[14:25] <eroomde> much better to have maybe a few tens of stars in your field of view, each of which has a centroid you calculate
[14:25] <darkstar-2001> Nah, I'm still thing about an x-ray telescope and how to get pointing on that.
[14:25] <darkstar-2001> *thinking
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: naah - it's dead easy
[14:25] <eroomde> the varience of your pointing estimate goes down as sqrt(N) of the stars you can see
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: the size means the centroid is really great
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Well - I guess it depends as to how much you want to poitn
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> Are you looking for tens of arc minutes, or seconds
[14:26] <eroomde> seconds natch
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> If you're actually pointing a scope - then - well - no
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> But I'm not sure how much resolution a practical liftable x-ray scope could get
[14:27] <darkstar-2001> The xray telescope I used on mir used a sextant (well the cosmonauts used it) to point the
[14:27] <eroomde> what do you have in mind for ballooning darkstar-2001 ?
[14:27] <darkstar-2001> well we used to get about 1.8 armin res from that.
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Does the telescope weigh more or less than a car.
[14:27] <darkstar-2001> Something much more simple
[14:28] <darkstar-2001> a GM tube. some lead for collimation.
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> What's its angular resolution
[14:28] <darkstar-2001> no idea yet.
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> If it's not much better than a degree - GPS+gyro + mag may be quite adequate
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> especially adding in a sun sesor
[14:29] <darkstar-2001> It shouldn't weight more that 25 tonnes or so :lol:
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> Also - are you sure lead is best
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> You don't care about volume - but weight
[14:30] <darkstar-2001> Another thing to ponder.
[14:31] Action: SpeedEvil ponders going outside with binoculars to see if he can see stars
[14:31] <darkstar-2001> As you can tell - this project is in its very early stages! :os
[14:31] <darkstar-2001> Weirdly, I can even see the big one this afternoon!
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[14:32] <gonzo_> how about wate as a screening medium
[14:32] <gonzo_> water
[14:34] <gonzo_> I used to work on low background alpha -bete detectors. some placed used a room within a water tank for shielding against background
[14:34] <fsphil> SpeedEvil: remember to stand in the shadow of your house :)
[14:35] <fsphil> I've seen venus during the day
[14:35] <fsphil> and people have imaged jupiter during the day too
[14:36] <enkidu> actually you can look for the stars but have to avoid the sun. It will make cmos insensitive for weak light
[14:36] <fsphil> yea the sun is the biggest problem
[14:36] <fsphil> and reflection from the balloon
[14:37] <fsphil> other than that there should be no other bright sources of light from the sky
[14:37] <eroomde> so a decently colimated star tracker
[14:37] <eroomde> that oughta do it
[14:37] <fsphil> this will be much easier to test at night
[14:37] <enkidu> using balloon matrix (ie. 3) you can put camera on long boom and place weight under tracker
[14:38] <fsphil> that's getting silly though
[14:38] <eroomde> yes
[14:38] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: planets are easy if you can resolve them
[14:38] <fsphil> a long cord would help, get the balloon and payload fairly far apart and the balloon will be visually fairly small
[14:38] <SpeedEvil> planets are as bright as nearby illuminated objects
[14:39] <eroomde> so i msieed some scrollback, are you looking at flying a telescope?
[14:39] <fsphil> an image of the orion nebula in summer would be a neat trick :)
[14:39] <fsphil> *from the UK
[14:39] <darkstar-2001> looking at = pondering
[14:40] <eroomde> i'd encourage this hugely
[14:40] <eroomde> fwiw
[14:40] <eroomde> it would be completely awesome
[14:40] <fsphil> very
[14:41] <darkstar-2001> Yeah, it would. I've a whole bunch of challenges!
[14:41] <fsphil> I'm hoping the little cameras I've ordered can resolve stars
[14:41] <darkstar-2001> Wow!
[14:41] <eroomde> that would be cool
[14:41] <fsphil> they claim good low light performance
[14:41] <enkidu> maybe camera on top of ballon would be useful?
[14:41] <enkidu> glued
[14:42] <eroomde> attaching anything to latex balloons is really a non-starter
[14:42] <eroomde> apart from at the neck
[14:42] <eroomde> it'll just create failure points for premature burst
[14:42] <SpeedEvil> everyone seen the mikes electric stuff little FPGA camera?
[14:42] <eroomde> yep
[14:43] <SpeedEvil> it's pretty cool. :-)
[14:43] <fsphil> that's the one I've ordered SpeedEvil :)
[14:43] <fsphil> well the camera, not the fpga
[14:44] Action: SpeedEvil ponders if the drumming next door means it's OK for me to start making windows in the greenhouse.
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[14:44] <SpeedEvil> cash is an issue, and timber is quite cheap.
[14:45] <eroomde> https://sites.google.com/a/pericynthion.org/www/ftr_shorter.pdf
[14:45] <eroomde> that's what henry did for his 4th year project
[14:45] <eroomde> not the final report, just one of the progress reports after the first few weeks
[14:45] <eroomde> but food for thought
[14:46] <SpeedEvil> quite
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> I sort of wondered about a star tracker for boats
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> for the 'if GPS fails' people
[14:48] <eroomde> sextant
[14:48] <darkstar-2001> That looks like good background reading.
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: well, yes.
[14:48] <eroomde> that's what we flew
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: but automated, accurate, and day/night too (with sky view)
[14:48] <darkstar-2001> Its what the cosmonauts used to point the 'scope i used on mir!
[14:49] <fsphil> nice lens
[14:49] <eroomde> you were on mir?
[14:49] <darkstar-2001> nah.
[14:49] <darkstar-2001> the 'scope was.
[14:49] <eroomde> was that part of some experiment?
[14:49] <SpeedEvil> I got something carried up to Mir.
[14:49] <eroomde> or a nav backup?
[14:49] <darkstar-2001> http://www.sron.nl/divisions/hea/sax/htdocs/comis/
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> technically, it was a water molecule I breathed out.
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> but statistics prove it likely went to Mir.
[14:50] <darkstar-2001> On the qvant module on the mir station - back in the day.
[14:51] <darkstar-2001> The star tracker on the 'scope failed. so the cosmonaughts just tweaked the momentum wheels till it was pointing in the right direction. more or less.
[14:51] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[14:51] <eroomde> nice
[14:51] <fsphil> "based on the relative positions of its two nearest neighbours" .. aaaw that was my idea too :)
[14:52] <eroomde> ftpdf?
[14:52] <Laurenceb__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZGCHhL7zm4
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[15:52] <Laurenceb__> submitting my thesis tomorrow XD
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[15:56] <WillTablet> Does the resistance of aluminium foil detectably change with area?
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[16:02] <chrisstubbs> Resistance is a cross sectional area of the conductor thing
[16:02] <chrisstubbs> not sure if the same applies to foil, I would presume so
[16:03] <tjanos> good afternoon to all
[16:03] <chrisstubbs> Hu tjanos
[16:03] <chrisstubbs> *Hi
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[16:05] <tjanos> are there any new about the polish/slovakian ballons?
[16:06] <tjanos> I dont see anything on spacenear map
[16:06] <Upu> they are launching on Saturday
[16:06] <Upu> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ukhas/kepfKQANeK0
[16:07] <arko> Uggg 9 am classes suck
[16:07] <arko> How does this even happen in upper division
[16:07] darkstar-2001 (~matt@dsl-217-155-229-6.zen.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[16:08] <tjanos> are there good wether prediction? the clouds walking here, around: http://www.sat24.com/
[16:08] <mfa298> from what I remember 9am monday morning is the worst. I think that's when I had maths in my first year of Uni.
[16:09] <arko> Right, first and second year classes sure, but 4th?
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[16:09] <arko> This is a war crime
[16:13] <enkidu> arko: 13 hours, 7am-8pm
[16:13] <WillTablet> chrisstubbs I'm just wondering if I put a piece of foil over the end of the barrel of a gun and fired it, if the change in resistance would be noticable
[16:13] <enkidu> only lectures
[16:13] <enkidu> mandatory
[16:13] <enkidu> in one auditorium
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[16:13] <enkidu> is it genocide already?
[16:13] <eroomde> WillTablet, i like the idea. i might be inclined to jsut put a narrow strip across the barel such that it gets completely broken
[16:13] <eroomde> so you loose continuity completely
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[16:13] <enkidu> eroomde: I think that thin foil mill be broken entirely by so called "boxer" ammo
[16:14] <DL7AD> evening
[16:14] <WillTablet> That's an idea, but you'd need to position right.
[16:14] <WillTablet> *it
[16:20] <chrisstubbs> Sounds like a fun experiment
[16:20] <chrisstubbs> what kinda range?
[16:21] <enkidu> it should be done in a barn on other enclosed space
[16:23] <chrisstubbs> blow up a balloon in a box so it presses against a microswitch then shoot the balloon
[16:23] <enkidu> bullet will be few metres after balloon when switch became depressed
[16:24] <enkidu> also two balloons in series may be not very accurate
[16:24] <chrisstubbs> Dare I ask how this topic came about? haha
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[16:28] <SP3OSJ> #habhub
[16:28] <enkidu> SP3OSJ: I am off tracking today - server room with no window
[16:29] <WillTablet> I just thought it'd be cool
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[16:30] <ibanezmatt13> evening
[16:31] <enkidu> maybe I should place antenna on roof and point it to lithuania?
[16:37] <Semordnilap> Hi ibanezmatt13
[16:38] <ibanezmatt13> Hi there
[16:38] <Semordnilap> I'm pretty sure I never used this nick
[16:38] Nick change: Semordnilap -> Willdude123
[16:38] <chrisstubbs> howdy ibanezmatt13, hows the NORB status?
[16:38] <Willdude123> Weird
[16:38] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[16:38] <ibanezmatt13> chrisstubbs: NORB 3 will be made when parts can be ordered :)
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[16:38] <eroomde> what's going in norb3?
[16:39] <Willdude123> Just realized £55 was a little too much to pay for BF4. Never mind
[16:39] <ibanezmatt13> It's a PCB I made eroomde
[16:39] <ibanezmatt13> SD card, humidity and temp sensors, atmega328p, ublox max 6, ntx2 etc
[16:40] <ibanezmatt13> We're sending two payloads up both with NORB 3 boards inside. One made of the usual styrofoam, the other... cardboard
[16:41] <ibanezmatt13> The idea being to test some cardboard my Dad's company have designed to see if it can withstand the conditions up there. Should be interesting.
[16:42] <ibanezmatt13> Gotta run, food. See you
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[16:49] <G0TDJ_Steve> chrisstubbs: Good afternoon - Boards ordered (With a little help from Mitch)
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[17:33] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good evening - Anyone know how to put a red 'X' symbol on a connection in Eagle to signify No Connection?
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[17:35] <Bo_DK> G0TDJ_Steve: hmmm
[17:35] <Bo_DK> let me think if others do not beat me to it
[17:36] <G0TDJ_Steve> I've seen them before and I know you don't need them. It's my OCD :-)
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[17:36] <Bo_DK> so... its like a pin on a chip... you want to show its not connected?
[17:37] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, I'm trying to find an example
[17:37] <Bo_DK> actually never seen it....
[17:37] <Bo_DK> build a few PCB's and simply not connected the pin
[17:37] <Bo_DK> anyone should know
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[17:38] <G0TDJ_Steve> Maybe it's not possible. I'm having trouble trying to find an example
[17:38] <Bo_DK> of course you can always put in a text field with a X in
[17:39] <Bo_DK> before selecting text symbol
[17:39] <Bo_DK> select symbol instead of nets
[17:39] <Bo_DK> and then the X should be red
[17:39] <Bo_DK> drag it over the pin
[17:39] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hmmm
[17:39] <Bo_DK> maybe zoom way in so it does not connect
[17:39] <Bo_DK> but when you zoom out you cant see
[17:40] <Bo_DK> eagle should just see a text there... user sees it as a symbol
[17:40] <Bo_DK> know its cutting coners like hell
[17:40] <Bo_DK> but you get what you want
[17:40] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, my brain is a little bit fuzzy...
[17:41] <Bo_DK> fuzzy... then try to be in my brain
[17:41] <Bo_DK> you would run away screaming for your mum :-P
[17:41] <G0TDJ_Steve> I had wine at lunch
[17:41] <Bo_DK> sure you have seen me call for help on a project of mine
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[17:42] <Bo_DK> tracker/listnerdecoder thin i try to build
[17:42] <fsphil> I only get whines at my office
[17:42] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh? I don't remember. I'd have helped if poss
[17:42] <G0TDJ_Steve> LOL fsphil
[17:42] <LeoBodnar> evening!
[17:42] <Bo_DK> now that project makes me very fuzzy
[17:42] <Bo_DK> was close to hammering my fist down in hardware
[17:42] <fsphil> howdy Mr.Leo
[17:42] <Bo_DK> which has several pin headers
[17:42] <LeoBodnar> What are you struggling with G0TDJ_Steve ?
[17:43] <LeoBodnar> G'day old son!
[17:43] <Bo_DK> should never have started it.... programming is just not me
[17:43] <LeoBodnar> That's what my aussie landlord says
[17:43] <G0TDJ_Steve> Just trying to find out how to put a red 'x' for No connection, on an Eagle circuit. I know it's not actually necessary but it wouldbe nice to say explicitly
[17:44] <LeoBodnar> On a diagram or PVB?
[17:44] <LeoBodnar> PCB
[17:44] <G0TDJ_Steve> Diagram
[17:45] <LeoBodnar> You can just draw to diagonal lines on a say info layer
[17:45] <LeoBodnar> Or Symbol if you want it red
[17:45] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, I jsut thought there was a way of doing it by the connection.
[17:45] <LeoBodnar> Or draw a text "X"
[17:45] <G0TDJ_Steve> Built in
[17:47] <LeoBodnar> in the part symbol in the library?
[17:47] <Bo_DK> G0TDJ_Steve + LeoBodnar i suggest to draw a text X on symbol layer
[17:47] <Bo_DK> makes the X red
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[17:47] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'm not sure Leo, I've never used it before. Just seen it on some diagrams. The more I look, the more I think it's on a different program (Proteus or something)
[17:47] <Bo_DK> then just drag it close to pin that is not connected
[17:47] <SP3OSJ> #habhub
[17:48] <LeoBodnar> Do you have a link?
[17:48] <G0TDJ_Steve> That's an adequate work-around Bo_DK
[17:48] <G0TDJ_Steve> No, I'm looking for one now!
[17:48] <Bo_DK> i like work-arrounds... as long they do not screw things up and gets the job done :-)
[17:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> This is nuts....
[17:52] <G0TDJ_Steve> Never mind. I'll have another search when my head clears a bit... Where's the kettle?
[17:53] <Laurenceb__> wut
[17:53] <Laurenceb__> http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2013/09/26/with-engineers-on-board-a-startup-is-driving-the-hyperloop-idea-forward/
[17:55] <nats`> hi
[17:55] <DL7AD> evening
[17:55] <keydash> any dongle owner here?
[17:55] <G0TDJ_Steve> GE OM
[17:56] <nats`> dongle like rtl sdr ?
[17:56] <keydash> yeah
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[17:56] <nats`> yep
[17:56] <DL7AD> i have
[17:56] <keydash> What's the difference between normalfm
[17:56] <keydash> and
[17:56] <keydash> wide fm
[17:57] <nats`> the BW ?
[17:57] <keydash> yep
[17:57] <DL7AD> yes
[17:57] <keydash> cause in the WFM I can hear local stations
[17:57] <DL7AD> wfm is 220khz wide used for broadcast radio
[17:57] <keydash> but on the same frequency on NFM
[17:57] <keydash> RIGHT
[17:57] <nats`> keydash because normal fm is narrower band
[17:58] <nats`> so you don't have all the signal
[17:58] <LeoBodnar> 220kHz?
[17:58] <DL7AD> but nfm has not the same quality like wfm
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[17:58] <keydash_> uops
[17:58] <LeoBodnar> I thought deviation is 75kHz
[17:58] <keydash_> sorry man
[17:58] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar i think it was 220
[17:58] <keydash_> I didn't read cause the chrome fucked the irc
[17:59] <keydash_> the issue
[17:59] <keydash_> i hear the stations with several cuts
[17:59] <keydash_> in nfm
[17:59] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar yes but deviation is not everything ;)
[17:59] <keydash_> that's becasue the wide?
[17:59] <keydash_> not dongle issue?
[18:00] <LeoBodnar> Well even with Carson rule it is below 100kHz?
[18:00] <DL7AD> keydash_ yes but you can also hear somethink if there is an ssb singal demodulated with wfm ;)
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[18:01] <keydash_> hmm
[18:01] <keydash_> what I can hear on ssb or nfm?
[18:01] <LeoBodnar> WiKi says Normally each channel is 200 kHz (0.2 MHz) wide, and can pass audio and subcarrier frequencies up to 100 kHz. Deviation is typically limited to 150 kHz total (±75 kHz)
[18:01] <LeoBodnar> But who trusts wikid?
[18:02] <keydash_> Changing to NFM and the silence come to the headphone
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[18:02] <DL7AD> keydash_: with nfm you could receiver aprs 144.8 (digital) or most time its used by radio amateurs for local purpuses (144-146mhz)
[18:03] <DL7AD> keydash_: ssb is used most time on shortwafe frequencies below 30mhz. but you can also do digital modes like leo's balloons do.
[18:04] <keydash_> I see to peaks on 144 Mhz
[18:04] <keydash_> just hearing noise
[18:04] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: could be right. its definetly something around 200khz
[18:05] <DL7AD> keydash_: yes search for 144.8 (nfm). this should be a frequency frequenly used ;)
[18:05] <keydash_> what BW??
[18:05] <DL7AD> keydash_: 12khz. in which region are you living? maybe you could hear an amateur relay station.
[18:06] <keydash_> spain
[18:06] <keydash_> barcelona
[18:06] <DL7AD> second. i will search for some frequencies for you
[18:06] <keydash_> thanks men
[18:06] <keydash_> when i get over 6.53khz the sound stops
[18:06] <[1]Geoff-G8DHE> http://www.ure.es/principal/2013-07-03-10-24-44/1023-repetidores-432-mhz.html
[18:07] <[1]Geoff-G8DHE> http://www.ure.es/principal/2013-07-03-10-24-44/1022-repetidores-144-mhz.html
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[18:07] <DL7AD> [1]Geoff-G8DHE: thats a good page :)
[18:08] <[1]Geoff-G8DHE> Should be able to find some thng local I think!
[18:08] <keydash_> NICE!
[18:08] <keydash_> Thanks men
[18:08] <DL7AD> no problem :)
[18:08] <keydash_> well i have the tiny antenna
[18:09] <DL7AD> how long is your antenna?
[18:09] <keydash_> pff
[18:09] <keydash_> maybe 15 cm?
[18:09] <keydash_> xD
[18:10] <keydash_> the ones that comes with the dongle
[18:10] <DL7AD> 16...17cm should be ideal for 430mhz
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[18:10] <keydash_> dunno if relevant, but i can ge some 1090 mhz adsb
[18:11] <DL7AD> keydash_: yes thats cool. ;) thats the ideal test to check if your equiment is workin
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[18:11] <keydash_> I can't hear anything on these frequencies but
[18:11] <keydash_> at least
[18:12] <keydash_> i acn put the bw at 12khz and hear noise
[18:12] <DL7AD> yes thats okay... no worry
[18:12] <mfa298> if your near an airport you could try looking up the air traffic frequncies
[18:12] <keydash_> I'm quite near
[18:12] <DL7AD> just listen on these frequencies. the relays are not transmitting at every time
[18:12] <keydash_> maybe 5 km
[18:12] <keydash_> or 8 km
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[18:13] <keydash_> in the gain setting
[18:14] <keydash_> on configure on sdrsharp
[18:14] <keydash_> should I have RTL AGC or TUNER AGC or some value?
[18:14] <keydash_> I see a lot of peaks on 433 mhz
[18:14] <Laurenceb__> wait wut
[18:14] <Laurenceb__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minokawa
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[18:15] <DL7AD> mfa298: do you know some frequencies of the local airport?
[18:16] <mfa298> I've got the frequency for my local tower somewhere but that's not going to be much help
[18:17] <mfa298> they're usually easy to find online
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[18:19] <Mik_WD8MNV> from what i understand, the dongle is somewhat noisy, so use the least amout of gain you need. works best with a low noise external pre amp?
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[18:19] <keydash_> http://imgur.com/2jq6VHj
[18:20] <craag> The dongle is noisy, I've still always got the best signal by leaving it's gain at default. Then adding a preamp will boost an incoming signal above the internal noise.
[18:20] <mfa298> I've found that for listening to most signals I've had to turn the gains up on the rtl dongles, but that's with not external pre-amp
[18:20] <keydash_> that's what I see on 432 mhz
[18:20] <keydash_> also teh gain conf
[18:21] <Mik_WD8MNV> anyone use this one? http://lna4all.blogspot.ie/
[18:22] <DL7AD> keydash_: you should hear the airplanes at least. but set your demodulation to AM before! https://www.ivao.aero/db/ss/airport.asp?Id=LEBL
[18:22] <keydash_> the conf is ok?
[18:24] <mfa298> keydash_: the best thing is to find some communications to listen to and have a play with settings
[18:24] <craag> Mik_WD8MNV: I don't use that one, but the specs look great.
[18:25] <keydash_> I can't find anything
[18:25] <mfa298> airband/marine band can be good if you're close to an airport/seaport as there's often radio traffic as things arive/depart
[18:25] <mfa298> If you're just using the small antenna that came with the dongle the signals will be weaker and it will help a lot if you've got the antenna outside (hang it out a window)
[18:26] <keydash_> i'm about 30 km from barcelona's airport
[18:26] <keydash_> but there's a lot of planes above my city all day
[18:26] <Mik_WD8MNV> you can simply clip a wire on the end of the whip to make it longer
[18:27] <keydash_> can I clip a wire on the end of the antenna and throw it outside?
[18:27] <Mik_WD8MNV> you can also get adapter cables so you can hook it to a real antenna
[18:27] <keydash_> im waiting for it
[18:27] <Mik_WD8MNV> sure... try it and see
[18:28] <mfa298> as with most things radio the best thing to do is try it and see.
[18:28] <keydash_> let's try then
[18:28] <Mik_WD8MNV> depend one the dongle... it may go as low as 24Mhz
[18:30] <Mik_WD8MNV> 50 - 54 Mhz is 6 meters
[18:32] <chrisstubbs> G0TDJ_Steve, Cool :)
[18:32] <keydash_> found electrical wire
[18:32] <chrisstubbs> The --X symbols on my schematic are pinheaders btw
[18:33] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing them now Although they haven't passed the factory yet
[18:33] <G0TDJ_Steve> Pin headers? What, singles?
[18:34] <chrisstubbs> Yeah just for like breaking out io pins
[18:34] <G0TDJ_Steve> Don't they appear on teh baord?
[18:34] <chrisstubbs> Sorry not pinheaders, wirepads :P
[18:34] <chrisstubbs> I thought thats what you meant, Not aware of a "not connected" symbol
[18:34] <G0TDJ_Steve> Any idea where they are LOL
[18:36] <G0TDJ_Steve> OK Got them
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[18:36] <chrisstubbs> Oh really? what are they?
[18:36] <G0TDJ_Steve> These appear on the board though. Wirepads
[18:37] <G0TDJ_Steve> There's a wirepad library
[18:39] <chrisstubbs> afraid I dont know of a N/C symbol
[18:39] <G0TDJ_Steve> I've seen circuit diagrams with the same symbol but no package and it symbolises No Connection.
[18:39] <Willdude123> I'm bored. I need something cool to do
[18:39] <G0TDJ_Steve> When I find one I'll show you.
[18:39] <chrisstubbs> Lol
[18:39] <chrisstubbs> I have only ever seen diagrams with N/C written next to pins as text
[18:39] <G0TDJ_Steve> Mitch was a great help in hackvana
[18:40] <keydash_> hell yeah
[18:40] <chrisstubbs> Yeah hes great
[18:40] <keydash_> I've detached the antenna
[18:40] <keydash_> and clip the wire
[18:40] <keydash_> the low signals increased
[18:40] <Willdude123> G0TDJ_Steve, What is your board for?
[18:40] <keydash_> I'm gonna to take dinner, then i'll continue
[18:40] <G0TDJ_Steve> Willdude123: It's a HAB Tracker developed from Chris's CHEAPO board
[18:40] <G0TDJ_Steve> I just added a few bits
[18:42] <G0TDJ_Steve> Willdude123: My blog entry: http://projecthab.co.uk/2013/09/26/cheapo-re-design/
[18:43] <chrisstubbs> Thought I would replace one of the burned out motors on my robot today. Sheared the driveshaft on the replacement motor :(
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> Oops.
[18:43] <G0TDJ_Steve> Blimey
[18:43] <G0TDJ_Steve> DId you put it under too much load?
[18:44] <chrisstubbs> Had a spare gerbox from the burned out one though, just typical haha
[18:44] <G0TDJ_Steve> :-/
[18:46] <G0TDJ_Steve> chrisstubbs: Sorry I didn't get back last night. You think my modular thing would be problematic?
[18:46] <chrisstubbs> It would be cool, and people have flown stacked arduino sheilds before
[18:47] <chrisstubbs> It just worries me if things can detatch in flight :P
[18:48] <G0TDJ_Steve> Well, I could put drill holes in each side to thread cable ties though?
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[18:48] <G0TDJ_Steve> Or bolts...
[18:48] <chrisstubbs> Yeah maybe :)
[18:49] <mfa298> I think i'd trust bolts more than cable ties
[18:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> I just thought it would be good to design a separate module for each task so a user could match a uBlox GPS with an NTX2 or a-n-other GPS with an RFM22b etc, maybe have options for boost reg or normal batts, rechargable, whatever
[18:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> Maybe I just miss my lego LOL
[18:51] <eroomde> the romanians are doing the followup to the work we did testing mars chutes
[18:51] <eroomde> the full scale test was given to the romanian space agency
[18:51] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EllWgNTaZJo&list=UUEj_j2XCSPcPD4u4XwcQGDw
[18:52] <eroomde> i think this is just a test of the instrumentation
[18:52] <G0TDJ_Steve> Some serious ballonage
[18:52] <eroomde> yeah, i guess they're not into zero-pressure stuff yet
[18:53] <eroomde> which would be a less taffy way of getting that lift
[18:53] <eroomde> faffy*
[18:53] <G0TDJ_Steve> Mission control looks like Dave's place :-)
[18:54] <G0TDJ_Steve> Wet recovery....
[18:55] <G0TDJ_Steve> Nice whatyou can do with a budget....
[18:56] <eroomde> mmm, i suspect that day out probably cost a similar amount to our whole program
[18:56] <eroomde> this was our bit: http://www.eng.cam.ac.uk/news/stories/2011/CU_Spaceflight/
[18:56] <eroomde> and about the last bit of tab i did. wanted a break after that and then found rockets in the meantime
[18:57] <G0TDJ_Steve> Nice
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[19:02] <Willdude123> Urgh. Science homework involves plotting a graph.
[19:02] <Willdude123> They must've been asleep when Lotus 1-2-3 came out.
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[19:05] <Willdude123> G0TDJ_Steve, How come you have such a cool logo?
[19:06] <G0TDJ_Steve> Which one?
[19:06] <mfa298> being able to plot a graph by hand (or at least have some idea of what a graph will look like) is a useful tool to have. Just because a computer can do something doesn't mean it will do it right
[19:08] <Willdude123> mfa298, I can, it's tedious given that a computer will do it much faster.
[19:08] <Willdude123> And just as accurately, albeit with a little setup required
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[19:09] <mfa298> the point is that being able to do it yourself acts as a check that the computer gets it right. But first you have to do it manually so you learn (and remember) how the process works.
[19:11] <mfa298> I've had instances that I've asked some software to do something and because of some small error the result is totally wrong. If I hadn't learnt how the processes work by doing it manually I would not have spotted those errors.
[19:11] <G0TDJ_Steve> Willdude123: It's good to know the process behind the scenes
[19:11] <Willdude123> Meh, nobody said I couldn't use excel
[19:12] <mfa298> usually the point of homework is to learn, getting excel to do it for you doesn't help you learn - and if it's something you need to do in the exam it's *much* easier if it's something you've practiced.
[19:13] <bertrik> I'd use excel
[19:13] <bertrik> Willdude123: what kind of function is it?
[19:13] <Willdude123> hah
[19:13] <Willdude123> It isn't a function
[19:13] <mfa298> learn from someone who's sat in exams and thought: "I remember being taught this but I didn't practice it enough so can't remember what to do"
[19:14] <Willdude123> I was taught how to plot a graph in year 6, I could do it then, and I can do it now.
[19:14] <mfa298> of course in the time you've been moaning about it you could probably have completed the task.
[19:15] <Willdude123> I have been completing it.
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[19:15] <G0TDJ_Steve> Willdude123: Did you mean the blog logo? I designed it.
[19:15] <Willdude123> Yeah it's awesome
[19:15] <G0TDJ_Steve> Cheers :-)
[19:16] <chrisstubbs> G0TDJ_Steve, do you have design background?
[19:16] <chrisstubbs> having done the HAB TAGS and habduino logo too
[19:16] <G0TDJ_Steve> Only in an amateur sense, although I used to teach basic Desktop Publishing
[19:16] <chrisstubbs> (feel free to use that awesome name btw)
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[19:22] <eroomde> anyone with opinions either way on the new brian cox history of science thing?
[19:23] <chrisstubbs> The first one was okay
[19:23] <G0TDJ_Steve> Science Britannica? Liked the first one, haven't seen the second yet
[19:23] <chrisstubbs> not seen the second (or sure if its out yet)
[19:23] <Upu> I quite enjoyed it
[19:24] <Upu> was his usual self
[19:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> I like Mr. Cox anyway
[19:24] <Upu> long stares out of windows
[19:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> Very Sagan-esque
[19:24] <eroomde> mum emailed to say i should watch it
[19:24] <Upu> I did chuckle when he say books are just an opinion of the writer
[19:24] <eroomde> but that can go either way
[19:24] <Upu> did you note which book he had ?
[19:24] <mfa298> you may or may not learn much from it but it describes some good sciency concepts well.
[19:24] <eroomde> usually when you're scientifically inclined, well meaning family members assume you'll like popular-science books and stuff
[19:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> What one was it Anthony?
[19:24] <mfa298> the 2nd one talked a bit about journals and peer review.
[19:24] <eroomde> when often reading them can be quite a trying experience
[19:25] <Upu> basically he was holding a book by deepak chopra up as an example
[19:25] <G0TDJ_Steve> Bit over my uneducated head LOL
[19:25] <eroomde> but equally history of science stuff is slightly orthogonal to that so i'll give it an inlayer and see
[19:25] <Upu> Well
[19:25] <Upu> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/278-0369089-5092444?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=deepak%20chopra&sprefix=deepak+chopra%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Adeepak%20chopra
[19:25] <Upu> I think you'll get it :)
[19:25] <G0TDJ_Steve> I did love the Iodine experiment he did
[19:26] <Upu> tbh Ed he exploded some hydrogen
[19:26] <G0TDJ_Steve> Ah LOL
[19:26] <Upu> and the next episode has a HAB in it
[19:26] <G0TDJ_Steve> Is that No.2 or 3?
[19:26] <G0TDJ_Steve> Although I have the sky box set to record them anyway
[19:26] <eroomde> many science programs have tab in them now
[19:26] <Upu> no idea
[19:26] <eroomde> hab*
[19:27] <Upu> yeah
[19:27] <eroomde> it's obviously got onto the radar of bbc researchers
[19:27] <Upu> but it seems in context
[19:27] <Upu> rather than LOOK SPACE!
[19:27] <eroomde> that's ok then
[19:27] <Upu> it was interesting though
[19:28] <eroomde> better than Julia, my age, right accent, calling from some production company asking for a load of tab work for free because OMG TV
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[19:28] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'm in Practical Wireless this month :-)
[19:28] <eroomde> and then turning up and wanting my level or urgency to reflect her level of urgency
[19:28] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh, and Chris is mentioned
[19:29] <eroomde> which is only because she hasn't planned stuff properly
[19:29] <[1]Geoff-G8DHE> I remember making the same explosive and loading on to paper planes to launch from the window sill!
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> tab work?
[19:29] <Willdude123> eroomde, remind me why did you have so much hydrogen>
[19:29] <eroomde> or they're spending £3758/min on their presenter
[19:29] <eroomde> hab work
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> ah
[19:29] <eroomde> so they're trying to fit all the filming into one massive panic day
[19:30] <eroomde> or perhaps Olivia will come in Julia's place because Julia is on another project today
[19:30] <eroomde> or has OD'd on cocaine or something
[19:30] <eroomde> who knows
[19:31] <eroomde> james, my boss, did the top gear robin reliant space shuttle
[19:31] <eroomde> bringing up tv researchers nearer him triggers and involuntary 3 hour rant
[19:32] <Upu> You know what
[19:32] <DL7AD> I want to test red color
[19:32] <Upu> That had me on the edge of my seat going "wooooah" like a 12 year old
[19:32] <Upu> I loved it
[19:32] <Upu> shame it didn't part away
[19:32] <eroomde> i think it had all the abused engineers on the edge of their sanity
[19:33] <daveake> I'd like to see the notam application for that one
[19:33] <G0TDJ_Steve> It was great fun. Saw the actual thing (Was it?) At Beulaeu (can't spell it)
[19:33] <eroomde> he's about to do nitrogen triiodide isn't he
[19:33] <eroomde> ah yes
[19:33] <daveake> "Will it descend by parachute?" "No"
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[19:33] <eroomde> whenever a tv person spreads something purpley onto a filter paper, the wave function collapses
[19:33] <daveake> feather next
[19:33] <eroomde> oh yes!
[19:34] <eroomde> i fly landed on my sample when i made it
[19:34] <eroomde> poor fly
[19:34] <daveake> did it fly?
[19:34] <eroomde> its atoms did
[19:34] <eroomde> in different directions
[19:35] <daveake> purple paste gives you wings
[19:35] <daveake> or removes them
[19:35] <Upu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJdrlWR-yFM
[19:35] <Upu> in case anyone has no idea what we are on about
[19:35] <eroomde> this is BS
[19:35] <G0TDJ_Steve> That was fun...
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[19:36] <eroomde> about renaissance people wanting to understand nature to use it and create things rather than just understand it like ancient greek philosophers
[19:36] <eroomde> being a renaissance thing
[19:36] <eroomde> it came from islam, along with all the scientific texts that kicked the renaissance off
[19:37] <eroomde> i'm doing this thing where i get annoyed when i watch tv and remember why i don;t have a tv
[19:37] <Laurenceb__> http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs45/f/2009/100/f/6/Ubunchu_Manga_in_English_by_doctormo.png
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[19:38] <G0TDJ_Steve> Spectacular
[19:39] <chrisstubbs> eroomde, dare I ask how much the BBC blew on that?
[19:40] <eroomde> dunno
[19:40] <eroomde> but top gear makes all its money back in international sales 10 times over
[19:40] <chrisstubbs> haha
[19:40] <eroomde> their budget is different to everything else
[19:40] <daveake> yup
[19:40] <Willdude123_> eroomde, you don't have a TV? Why?
[19:41] <eroomde> why? i don;t really want or need one
[19:41] <Willdude123_> Fair enough
[19:41] <Willdude123_> Do you not watch any tv at all?
[19:41] <eroomde> i think most of it is crap, the stuff that's good doesn't usually get shown on uk terrestrial tv anyway (e.g. HBO stuff)
[19:41] <eroomde> no i do
[19:41] <eroomde> just not much and i download the stuff i want
[19:42] <Willdude123_> Isn't that illegal?
[19:42] <eroomde> but documentaries seem to have to never get too into any subject less they scare people off
[19:42] <eroomde> news is retarded
[19:42] <eroomde> there is about 20x the number of hours required to transmit the information
[19:42] <Willdude123_> (says the person trying to make my server capable of streaming torrented movies and tv shows to vlc to no avail)
[19:42] <eroomde> probably willdude
[19:43] Nick change: Willdude123_ -> Willdude123
[19:43] <eroomde> nothing could be more nauseating than being live outside the hospital of the 'royal baby'
[19:43] <Willdude123> Heh
[19:43] <eroomde> for example
[19:44] <eroomde> most of the stuff i'm interested in learning about is better served by books and the net
[19:44] <Willdude123> The BBC warning of NOO-CUE-LAR threats is annoyinh.
[19:44] <eroomde> tis all, really
[19:44] <keydash_> buh
[19:44] <Willdude123> Yeah come to thing of it it is
[19:44] <keydash_> still hearing just noise
[19:44] <eroomde> or radio
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[19:45] <eroomde> it just seems the official policy is that TV has to be the most populist medium
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[19:45] <eroomde> you can do more interesting/niche programs on radio, but if you want to make something for territorial tv it has to be bland and bankable
[19:45] <eroomde> it's analogous to the rut that hollywood has got itself into
[19:45] <keydash_> got peaks but all sounds rare
[19:45] <Willdude123> eroomde, the daily mail is just as bad as TV is
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[19:46] <eroomde> same old shit, no high art, nothing too challenging, just let them bathe in warm vomit
[19:47] <eroomde> sure, i'm sure there are other media outlets that are just as bad
[19:47] <eroomde> it's just annoying that tv, in principle a spectacular medium, has become what it has
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[19:47] <eroomde> but equally, i guess there's youtube for niche stuff. but the budgets and production value aren't there yet
[19:47] <Laurenceb__> Lanthanum Floride
[19:48] <chrisstubbs> People that voice their opinions they get from tabloid newspapers really make me laugh
[19:48] <eroomde> i just think the bbc has such a gift in not actually having to get advertising views, yet they still go and fart it all away on bollocks like The Voice and strictly and soaps
[19:48] Nick change: G0TDJ_Steve -> G0TDJ_AFK
[19:48] <G0TDJ_AFK> BBL guys
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[19:49] <eroomde> anyway that's why i'm not bothered about having a tv
[19:49] <eroomde> as you were
[19:52] <SP3OSJ> In England may be flight 144-146Mhz?
[19:52] <eroomde> no
[19:52] <SP3OSJ> ups no good!
[19:53] <Upu> :)
[19:54] <SP3OSJ> http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/271513249.html (120Mhz-1050Mhz) instead RFM22b
[19:55] <SP3OSJ> tracker easily convert 70cm to 2m
[19:56] <SP3OSJ> You have to write to the Queen
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[20:03] <Mik_WD8MNV> is that a drop in replacement?
[20:07] <bertrik> I'd like to write a message to the mailing list about some RFM22 experiments, do I need to apply for posting permission first?
[20:07] <SP3OSJ> You have to program as it flies England (GPS position) retune the 434.5MHz It will not be difficult.
[20:07] <eroomde> bertrik: no
[20:09] <bertrik> thanks
[20:18] <LeoBodnar> Iodine... Sweet memories of childhood
[20:18] <LeoBodnar> Nitrogen triiodide that is
[20:19] <LeoBodnar> Magnesium...
[20:24] <LeoBodnar> Maybe Prince Philip can be tricked into lobbying airborne use of AR.
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[20:30] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb__: I got almost 80% of capacity from a 300mAh LiPo cell in the freezer at 0.2C
[20:30] <Laurenceb__> nice
[20:30] <Laurenceb__> any graphs?
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> It discharged to 3.1V cutoff
[20:30] Action: Laurenceb__ is aiming to submit his thesis by 5pm tomorrow XD
[20:31] <LeoBodnar> So plenty of time then!
[20:31] <LeoBodnar> Anyway, this is not important.
[20:31] <Laurenceb__> heh
[20:31] <LeoBodnar> What is important is that sat in the fridge for another 4 hours
[20:31] <LeoBodnar> and ended up at 0.8V
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> So I guess there is a critical SOC level below which it should not be taken
[20:33] <LeoBodnar> So early voltage cutoff is critical. Maybe 3.4-3.3V or so
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> ANyway after warming up the voltage crept back to 3.0V
[20:36] <Laurenceb__> sat in the fridge or the freezer?
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> And subsequent charge-discharge showed no capacity loss
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> freezer
[20:37] <Laurenceb__> right
[20:37] <Laurenceb__> so you discharged to 3.1V
[20:37] <Laurenceb__> then left it?
[20:37] <Laurenceb__> do you have graphs of this?
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[20:38] <LeoBodnar> yeah but I did not plot the drop after 3.1V
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:38] <chrisstubbs> hi Lunar_Lander
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> I think there was a tine trickle current on the PSU after it cut off, 1mA or so
[20:39] <LeoBodnar> tiny
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> ah
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> hi chrisstubbs
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> you probably hit the discharge ramp
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[20:41] <LeoBodnar> I'll get you the pictures in a minute
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[20:45] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb__: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/300mAh-cold.png
[20:46] <Laurenceb__> hardly any difference
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> Steps are -16C..-21C variations
[20:46] <Laurenceb__> ah
[20:46] <Laurenceb__> 60mA discharge?
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> Yeah
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> 275mAh extracted
[20:47] <Laurenceb__> not bad
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> So the plan is to batten all the hatches when Vbatt drops to 3.5V and sit tight until sunrise
[20:48] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> I got shutdown battery current to 1.7mA
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> It should work
[20:48] <Laurenceb__> but this doesnt explain the crazy low voltage from B-13
[20:49] <Laurenceb__> it survived the first night extracting current at -2.6v
[20:49] <LeoBodnar> Bad battery, undercharged too
[20:49] <LeoBodnar> 4.0V is too low a voltage to stop charging
[20:49] <LeoBodnar> It's just high ESR
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> electrochemistry voltage could have been 3.0v but ESR went up massively
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> So idea with start-stopping GPS has actually killed it
[20:51] <Laurenceb__> ah yeah
[20:51] <LeoBodnar> because GPS consumes no current when off but when it's on it wants 60-80mAh
[20:51] <LeoBodnar> It's better to keep draining 10mAh than go for 100mAh with 1/10 DR
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> Using MPPT on a LiPo could be good idea
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> but I need a step-down, not step-up
[20:53] <Laurenceb__> heh
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[21:08] <DL7AD> ping LeoBodnar
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[21:26] <WillTablet> Heh. I was getting creeped out by the no of joins and quits under my nick then I realized I left my server connected
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[21:47] <LeoBodnar> How's thesis going Laurenceb__ ?
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[21:52] <Laurenceb__> proofread 50% now
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[21:52] <Laurenceb__> proofread everything then send off the pdf...
[21:52] <Laurenceb__> then relax :D
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[22:27] <mikestir> arghhhhh why can't microsoft just stop writing code, delete everything they've ever done and go away!
[22:28] <fsphil> they made minesweeper. that's good!
[22:28] <mikestir> lol
[22:29] <mikestir> I bet they bought that from someone
[22:29] <mikestir> like that pinball game
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[22:39] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
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[00:00] --- Fri Sep 27 2013