highaltitude.log.20130919

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[06:21] <malgar> when will be launched the balloons from spain?
[06:21] <malgar> Is there a page about their payloads?
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[06:24] <x-f> malgar, launch scheduled for today, around 12 UTC
[06:24] <x-f> good morning
[06:24] <daveake> Morning
[06:25] <daveake> Much simpler payload today shouldn't take so long to launch
[06:26] <daveake> Back to 600 baud so more live pix
[06:27] <daveake> The prediction shoes a much shorter path so the chase should be easier too
[06:28] <daveake> Shows
[06:34] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good Morning
[06:36] <malgar> btw: why from spain if the team is uk?
[06:41] <daveake> The guy it'd for lives in Spain, and there are less restrictive rules here
[06:47] <Upu> morning all
[06:48] <malgar> daveake: uk rules seem to me not so restrictives
[06:49] <malgar> Upu: good morning
[06:49] <Upu> they are restrictive
[06:49] <Upu> in comparison to say Spain
[06:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good Morning Anthony, how are you?
[06:50] <Upu> good
[06:51] <Upu> thanks
[06:51] <G0TDJ_Steve> Excellent
[06:51] <malgar> could you explain the differences? :)
[06:51] <Upu> everyone passed their exams at the conference and have call signs
[06:51] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yay! ;-)
[06:51] <malgar> in italy we have to compile a lot of paper :(
[06:51] <Upu> Spain can use airborne APRS, no need for a NOTAM under 4Kg payload etc
[06:52] <G0TDJ_Steve> I understand the weight thing but we should be able to use APRS at 10mw over here.
[06:54] <Upu> well no
[06:54] <G0TDJ_Steve> ?
[06:54] <Upu> airborne use under your call sign isn't permitted
[06:54] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh yeah, I know.
[06:54] <Upu> so if you launch a payload with M0UPU TXing RTTY @ 10mW on 434.500 not permitted
[06:55] <Upu> call it DONALDDUCK
[06:55] <Upu> fine
[06:55] <G0TDJ_Steve> Don't get me started :-)
[06:56] <Darkside> and FM at 10mW dosnt really work so well
[06:57] <G0TDJ_Steve> I hope the weather is better with Dave than it is here
[06:57] <malgar> no need for notam! wow
[06:58] <G0TDJ_Steve> daveake: Have you settled on a launch site for today?
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[07:14] <mfa298> aprs on 434 10mW has been done but there's not much point, there's a better listening network for rtty
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[07:28] <gonzo_> if it's on the exempt allocation it don't matter what data you send, AR cal;lsign or not
[07:28] <gonzo_> We could all launch as m0upu
[07:29] <eroomde> arko: yo
[07:30] <Upu> hmm
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[07:31] <HixGoneHome> g'day. I see congratulations are in order fore everyone passing their licences at the conf!!
[07:32] <HixGoneHome> *for
[07:32] Nick change: HixGoneHome -> hix
[07:32] Nick change: hix -> Hix
[07:33] <DL1SGP> Good Morning :)
[07:34] <eroomde> morning DL1SGP
[07:35] <mfa298> obviously putting an ar callsign on 434 ism probably becomes a grey area of is it ar or ism.
[07:36] <DL1SGP> over here in Germany amateur radio service is primary user in the 70cm band, ISM is secondary, so it would not be an issue here
[07:38] <mfa298> our main issue is that in the uk ar isn't permitted airborne so airborne 434 has to be ism rather than ar.
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[07:39] <DL1SGP> yes, but that does not only apply to ISM but rather to all bands :) if you use an ISM application that stays in the limits of specifications concerning bandwidth requirements and tx power then there is no need to use a unique callsign as "identificator" such as the amateur radio call
[07:41] <eroomde> i would have thought from a legalese pod that using your call sign on ISM is fine
[07:41] <mfa298> you may have missed some of the earlier comments on this matter, in particular
[07:41] <mfa298> 08:28 < gonzo_> if it's on the exempt allocation it don't matter what data you send, AR cal;lsign or not
[07:41] <mfa298> 08:28 < gonzo_> We could all launch as m0upu
[07:41] <eroomde> as fine as sending an ssdv picture of a donkey
[07:42] <eroomde> or playing a midi beethoven concerto
[07:42] <eroomde> you can just do whatever the hell you like provided you stay in power+bw limits
[07:42] <mfa298> to which i suggested that putting obviously putting an ar call sign on ism might become more of a grey area
[07:42] <eroomde> honestly I don't think so
[07:43] <eroomde> i think it's black and white
[07:43] <eroomde> inside the amateur radio power+bw limits, everything is strictly defined
[07:43] <eroomde> outside that, the RSGB might as well not exist.
[07:43] <DL1SGP> well I would be careful about using the callsign of somebody else, seeing it as a unique id it could be considered as impersonation of somebody else as soon as trouble start. In UK I would not use any amateur radio callsign for ISM applications at all, it makes no sense, if you use something like B-11 it is much shorter as well, less transmission time
[07:44] <eroomde> for all the relevance its/ofcom's rules have regarding use of AR bands
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[07:44] <mfa298> if it wasn't a shared band i'd say black and white, putting my ar hat on if I saw a callsign on 434 using an predominently ar protocol (this started out talking about aprs) then I think I would be justified in assuming it's ar use.
[07:45] <eroomde> yes, but AR people do things like that
[07:45] <eroomde> doesn't mean they#re right
[07:45] <eroomde> i'm not arguing from a good-neighbour, gentleman's agreement POV. in that regard I agree with you
[07:45] <eroomde> but just from a rights and laws POV
[07:46] <DL1SGP> the matter is, as soon as your use your Amateur Radio callsign your operation becomes an amateur radio operation, operation from airborne vehicles is not permitted in the UK, that's it, no matter which band. It could be something else if it was a ground based operation
[07:46] <eroomde> i think that's incorrect
[07:46] <eroomde> sorry
[07:47] <eroomde> i don't thinking using your call sign makes it an AR operation
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[07:47] <mfa298> If i took that complaint to ofcom (with a it's stopping my car from working and here's the callsign beinging tranmitted) I suspect they'de make the same assumption about it being ar use.
[07:47] <eroomde> any more than me saying 'Ed Moore' at the end of every message makes my irc chat a legally binding document. Signed: Ed Moore
[07:47] <gonzo_> if it's in the exempt service, then it's just data. the fact that it resembles an AR call is purely coincidental
[07:47] <eroomde> yes ^
[07:49] <gonzo_> i agree that assumptions would be made. But no cation could be taken. Though if you sling enough mud.....
[07:50] <gonzo_> there was a lit of upset when maplin started selling 446meg radios with 10mW LPD channels in.
[07:50] <gonzo_> As non AR people were coming out on the AR repeaters
[07:51] <mfa298> but if that data was a predominantly ar protocol (aprs) you're likely to make that mud stick more and it would be that smell mud.
[07:53] <gonzo_> the amount of mud/substance probably is proportiolan to the length of time before an official complaint were made. As soon as iot was investigated then it would be logally seen as LPD
[07:53] <eroomde> sure but mud-sticking and assumptions are all alegal concepts. You can upset some other amateurs, and well all know hams are upsettable, but that's all within the realms of trying to resolves tuff without authorities. If you actually wanted to get legal the confusion goes away
[07:53] <eroomde> it's very clear
[07:55] <gonzo_> the ofcom legal dept are reasonably quick to reply. So a simple enquiry and forward the reply to rsgb letters page. End of argument. (Though strat of grumpy grumbling)
[07:55] <mfa298> As a licensed operator if I ran aprs on on the ground 434 at 10mW using my call sign is that ISM or AR.
[07:56] <eroomde> ISM, legally
[07:56] <eroomde> just like all our balloon stuff
[07:56] <eroomde> even if we operate in the spirit of AR
[07:56] <gonzo_> if you are conforming to the ism specs and you say it is ism, that it';s ism. The data/protocol has no bearing on it
[07:57] <mfa298> I was going to say legally it could be either.
[07:57] <eroomde> no
[07:57] <eroomde> it's ISM
[07:58] <eroomde> if it sticks to the ISM rules
[07:58] <gonzo_> if you use a callsign as an ssid on your WLAN, it does not make it AR. Unless you deciode to operate it as AR (as the WLAN band is partyl in the existing 13cm allocation)
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[07:58] <gonzo_> you are the licence holder, so you decide what licence you are using
[07:59] <gonzo_> if you were .mil you would have a 3rd choice. But it's up to you
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[08:01] <eroomde> AR qualifications are just some hoops you have to jump through to allow you to use up to certain powers at certain frequencies. Basically a show of competency. Everything else that AR peeps stick ontop (culture, preferred modes, competitions) is just icing sugar. From a legal POV, it's just about operating requirements at higher powers at certain frequencies. If you fall beneath the threshold at which that's required (I
[08:01] <eroomde> then that's the end of it. Icing sugar or not.
[08:01] Action: mfa298 wonders based on that how many amteurs you could get to break the regs with the secondary aprs frequency that's in the ism band
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[08:02] <eroomde> no idea. is that relevent?
[08:02] <mfa298> but the AR regs are for up to that max power *and* to use the minimum power necessary so if I only need 10mW for an AR experiment I should only use 10mW
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[08:03] <eroomde> right&.
[08:04] <mfa298> the wondering was an aside - if an aprs station recieved an ISM aprs packet and then repeated it they would probably be in breach of their terms.
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[08:05] <eroomde> i thinking APRS repeaters are all under NoVs anyway aren't they?
[08:05] <mfa298> the simple answer to all this is make it obvious that something isn't AR by not using a callsign for ism tasks.
[08:05] <eroomde> in that they break the AR rules anyway
[08:08] <eroomde> sure but that's a decision that's completely orthogonal to legality, and just based on trying to be pragmatic. That's fine of course, it would just be wrong to say you're doing it for legal reasons which was the implication earlier.
[08:12] <mfa298> If it looks like AR traffic (aprs, 434Mhz with a valid callsign) then I think legally it probably still is a grey area it could be AR traffic, it could be ism. I suspect for a definitive answer it might need some case law which is unlikely to happen.
[08:13] <mfa298> if you do something to make it obviously one or the other (different data protocol, differnt
[08:13] <eroomde> no, this is so confused.
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[08:13] <eroomde> so so confused
[08:13] <mfa298> freq, more power, not callsign) then it becomes clear
[08:14] <eroomde> you're attributing so much more legal status to AR than it deserves
[08:14] <eroomde> which is something hams do which irritates me a lot
[08:14] <eroomde> 'oh that looks a bit like what we do so we muct be in charge of it'
[08:16] <mfa298> I'm trying to look at it in a way that most people who had a broad range of the radio spectrum would look at it.
[08:16] <eroomde> and I'm talking legally as I have been all along
[08:17] <eroomde> and being irritated by the ham tendency to muddy waters but making oblique reference to legal things when really the situation is quite clear
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[08:18] <mfa298> if it walks like a cat, talks like a cat, eats like a cat, it's probably a cat. In this example it looks like ISM *and* AR. So just looking at it I don't think you could define that it's either.
[08:18] <eroomde> but it doesn't matter what the hell you define it as. if it was broadcast within the ISM power and bw (and whatever else IR3020 specifies) limits then that's the end of the matter
[08:18] <eroomde> there is no more debate to be had
[08:19] <eroomde> legally
[08:19] <eroomde> i think i've been consistent in this point all along. if you want to argue mortally or whatever then fine, that's different and probably without resolution.
[08:20] <eroomde> morally*
[08:20] <eroomde> i don;t want to argue morally with you
[08:20] <eroomde> mortally*
[08:20] <eroomde> that would be a bit too final
[08:21] <mfa298> I don't fancy the pistols at dawn style of arguing either thankfully
[08:22] <eroomde> i just get irritated as ever since starting this whole technical journey about 8 years ago i constantly come across beard vested interests who keep throwing up clouds of vague hubris and suggestions of what i want to do being legally ropey
[08:23] <eroomde> beardy*
[08:23] <eroomde> when on examination they're usually talking bullshit and just trying to keep protected their little way of doing things without the threat of outside innovation
[08:23] <eroomde> it's the same with rocketry too
[08:24] <mfa298> simple answer to some of that is to make sure it doesn't look like AR (don't use something looking like a callsign)
[08:24] <eroomde> you're trolling now
[08:25] <eroomde> yes i accept that point pragmatically as i've said above. but please don't suggest to people that there's a legal basis for what you're saying
[08:25] <eroomde> that would be lying
[08:26] <mfa298> as I think someone said earlier the best place for an answer is ofcom although based on what's happened before chances are they wont answer in a definitive way.
[08:26] <eroomde> until then we have existing regulations which are unambiguous
[08:26] <eroomde> i'm sure they'd just point you to IR3020
[08:27] <eroomde> and saying 'we should ask of com' is just another oblique and unfounded reference to legal issues
[08:27] <eroomde> it's just muddying waters
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[08:29] <mfa298> from my understanding ISM and AR are both secondary users of the band, MOD are primary user. If ISM were the primary user then I'd agree with you but as it is I don't think ISM or AR has any more right to the band.
[08:30] <eroomde> sure but that's also orthogonal to if you can use an AR call sign on ism
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[08:31] <mfa298> but similarly I don't think that means IR2030 has any more standing than the AR space, so as it's shared from looking at a signal I don't think you could specify that it's ISM or AR useage if it fits into either license
[08:33] <eroomde> it certainly does have standing, it specifies what is license exempt
[08:33] <eroomde> doesn't matter what licenced users think about that, be the private security guards or radio hams or whatever
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[08:34] <eroomde> AR 'rules' just define power and bandwidth and say that you have a requirement to state who you are periodically
[08:34] <Darkside> theres also no commercial content, no encrypted or intentionally obsfucated content
[08:34] <Darkside> no third party content
[08:34] <Darkside> and no communication with non-amateur operators
[08:35] <Darkside> with all of the above waived in the case of an emergency
[08:35] <jcoxon> morning all
[08:35] <x-f> i recently read the rules for AR in my country and they state that radioamateurs can make a contact only with other amateur radiostations, which, i assume, might lead to the conclusion that all who track HABs (regular ISM ones) under their callsign are doing it illegally
[08:35] <ibanezmatt13> Morning
[08:35] <x-f> morning
[08:35] <Darkside> x-f: i wouldn't say so
[08:35] <Darkside> make contact implies a two-way QSO
[08:35] <eroomde> sure, but none of this affects what you can transmit with an ISM module
[08:35] <Darkside> yep
[08:36] <Darkside> exactly
[08:36] <Darkside> and receiving it is fine
[08:36] <Darkside> communicating to it with more than ISM power is where it gets grey
[08:36] <eroomde> yes exactly
[08:36] <Darkside> but i think the response from OFCOM on that was 'don't cause interference and we don't care'
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[08:37] <mfa298> i think that's the standard response from ofcom
[08:37] <Darkside> yeah
[08:37] <Darkside> do it until someone complains
[08:38] <eroomde> even when someone complains they encourage you to resolve it between yourselves
[08:38] <Darkside> yeah
[08:38] <eroomde> assuming you know who the other party is
[08:38] <Darkside> hehe
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[08:39] <eroomde> but yes, i really can't see any ambiguity in ISM on 70cm. unless the military say no, it's yours to do with within ISM as IR2030 (and whatever else it references) allows
[08:43] <gonzo_> neither ar or ism are protected services. So both must accespt interference. There is the AR requirement to not cause undue interference. ISM is niot controled in that way (given the useage)
[08:43] <eroomde> how AR users choose to use their allotted spectrum (within the bounds of the rules) is just orthogonal to any legal considerations, provided their use satisfies those rules. e.g. things like band plans have no legal standing, they're just gentleman's agreements.
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[09:47] <fsphil> regarding the earlier ISM chat, you can transmit anything except analogue music on 434mhz
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[09:57] <gonzo_> really? that's a bit of an odd differentiation
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[09:59] <fsphil> yea. I'm not sure the reason for it
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[09:59] <fsphil> digital music would be permitted
[10:00] <gonzo_> no music or speech it says
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[10:01] <fsphil> "Analogue audio applications other than voice / speech are excluded."
[10:01] <fsphil> that's for the 10mw 100% duty section
[10:01] <ed__> jcoxon, back now in this guide
[10:01] <ed__> guise*
[10:01] <gonzo_> what doc is that from?
[10:01] <craag> so no transmitting DTMF?!
[10:02] <fsphil> IR2030
[10:02] <fsphil> http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/spectrum/spectrum-policy-area/spectrum-management/research-guidelines-tech-info/interface-requirements/IR_2030.pdf
[10:02] <fsphil> I guess DTMF would be sorta digital
[10:02] <craag> hmm kinda I suppos
[10:02] <fsphil> in the same way CW is
[10:02] <fsphil> but not really
[10:02] <craag> true
[10:03] <craag> oh I was looking at VLF amateur radio stuff the other day
[10:03] <craag> Found one of those old 'webrings' of guys working on comms protocols
[10:03] <fsphil> ah, I remember those
[10:03] <fsphil> pre-google
[10:04] <craag> THey'd been using CW, but then one had the awesome and "revolutionary" idea that instead of switching the carrir off to send a space
[10:04] <craag> They'd shift it in frequency!
[10:04] <fsphil> oh wow, so some kind of frequency shift keying
[10:04] <craag> THey thought they'd invented the best thing ever
[10:05] <craag> yeah exactly
[10:05] <craag> I couldn't stop laughing..
[10:05] <gonzo_> ta for the link fsphil, I was working from an older copy
[10:05] <fsphil> the VLF stuff is pretty interesting. can be gotten at with simple audio equipment
[10:06] <craag> I guess they were CW types that had never played with rtty or anything 'fancy' like that.
[10:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> OoH just remembered I still have one on the bottom of one of my pages!
[10:07] <gonzo_> one of our lot wrote something like that, three shift cw. so euqal duration tines for dit dah and space
[10:07] <craag> Yeah, I was looking at possibly doing <0.1 baud rtty tracking once a payload is on the ground, so you wouldn't need LOS to receive it.
[10:07] <craag> <1 baud
[10:07] <gonzo_> slow cw, so you can read it off the waterfall
[10:08] <craag> bit of an issue with that, I'd need to know morse :P
[10:08] <fsphil> haha
[10:08] <gonzo_> the vlf boys do 0.001bd stuff
[10:08] <gonzo_> dot times of 10min
[10:08] <gonzo_> all day to send a callsign
[10:09] <craag> mm, I was thinking of a ferrite-rod TX antenna in the payload, then a well-loaded whip on the car, see what range you can get (1 mile would be great!)
[10:09] <fsphil> ground wave
[10:10] <fsphil> with a really low frequency it might not even be that
[10:10] <craag> I'm unfamiliar with propagation at those freqs, but it might penetrate hills quite well
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[10:11] <craag> Turbo-coded FSK and some simple DSP would get you quite an increase over CW I think.
[10:11] <fsphil> definitly
[10:11] <gonzo_> the prob is, the antennas are stupidly inefficient at vlf, so you have to put kw in to get a fraction of a watt eirp
[10:11] <fsphil> wouldn't even need to tx a callsign, just a position
[10:11] <craag> gonzo_: Hence the really low data rate, and only looking for the range of <1 mile.
[10:12] <gonzo_> g4jnt has soem pics on his site of his 'shed' whuch caught fire from magnetic coupling to his loading coil
[10:12] <fsphil> I've only managed a few metres at vlf, and I suspect that was more inductance than RF
[10:12] <fsphil> I was just using two long wires at either side of the house
[10:13] <craag> I mean you've got 2 frequency bins, and over a period of a minute you pick the one with the most energy in. I think you can get away with some *really* low erp.
[10:13] <gonzo_> it may be poss to have a pico that releases a the balloon on a long wire, when the payload hits the ground.
[10:13] <mfa298> I do recall reading something in radcom/pw about cave rescue using lower frequencies because it had better penetration through the rocks although that might not have been down to the vlf frequencies
[10:13] <gonzo_> so assuming you have a good balloon still (underinflate one?)
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[10:14] <craag> The issue with VLF is getting enough bandwidth for voice.
[10:14] <craag> SO a lot of the cave rescue systems are limited to a 10 character message or something
[10:14] <craag> THey tend to use a flat-pack coil about A4/A5 size iirc
[10:15] <fsphil> if the payload repeated the same message at exact intervals, you could probably use that to improve the signal level
[10:15] <craag> mm
[10:15] <fsphil> stack time periods together
[10:15] Nick change: MichaelC -> MichaelC|Away
[10:15] <craag> That's an idea that came up with analogue ATV recently
[10:15] <craag> GPS-sync the vsync
[10:15] <fsphil> ah, cool
[10:15] <G0TDJ_Steve> I believe theres a cave rescue kit that uses that kind of technique fsphil
[10:16] <craag> then integrate 60 frames over 2 seconds
[10:16] <craag> Most people are transmitting a static image of a callsign and ID numbers anyway.
[10:17] <craag> many many more dee-bees
[10:17] <fsphil> it's a bit overkill for sending a callsign :)
[10:17] <craag> Yeah but it's TV, so would count in the ATV contests!
[10:18] <fsphil> true
[10:19] <craag> But yeah, GPS-synced sentences would be quite easy, only needs it accurate to about a second or so.
[10:19] <craag> (For <0.1 baud)
[10:20] <craag> I dunno how much use it'd be for hab tbh. But would be cool to play with.
[10:20] <Tramvai> Can someone give me clues as to why sometimes my Arduino uBlox GPS bugs out and starts sending me false information (random latitude, longitude, 99 sats etc)? I can provide you the source code.
[10:20] <Tramvai> Time freezes.
[10:20] <gonzo_> I did my final year project developing an inductive loop comms system. the other guy I worked with chose that as it was cliose to cave radio, which he also did
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[10:21] <craag> If it loses lock then the time will freeze and lat/lon will wander randomly, but sats should go to 0
[10:21] <Tramvai> The problem is that it probably never had the lock
[10:21] <craag> Have you plugged it into ucenter on the PC?
[10:21] <gonzo_> worked so well, they use it as a construction project fro the next intake, then installed them in all the lecture theatre as head-aid tx
[10:22] <gonzo_> deaf-aid
[10:22] <Tramvai> No.
[10:22] <craag> nice gonzo_ !
[10:22] <Tramvai> It was sitting on my windowsill and transmitting.
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[10:22] <craag> Tramvai: Ok.. how long have you left it there?
[10:23] <Tramvai> Was less than 10 minutes before it bugged out
[10:24] <craag> hmm
[10:24] <Tramvai> Right now, it's transmitting fine again
[10:24] <craag> oh right
[10:24] <Tramvai> Time froze again...
[10:24] <craag> TIme freezing means it may be losing lock I'd have though.
[10:24] <Tramvai> Why does that happen? The time should continue ticking until it gets a lock
[10:24] <craag> Unless it loses the satellites
[10:24] <Tramvai> And it broke down again
[10:25] <craag> is this with the sarantel?
[10:25] <Tramvai> Yes
[10:25] <craag> ok
[10:25] <craag> ANd the code you're using? is it from the wiki?
[10:25] <Tramvai> I compiled it from bits and pieces
[10:26] <Tramvai> Even the radio stopped working now... I'm starting to suspect the power source it's connected to
[10:26] <Tramvai> Works fine while connected to the computer
[10:26] <craag> What's the power source?
[10:26] <craag> That does sound likely then.
[10:26] <Tramvai> http://paste2.org/ALxBDCxg
[10:26] <Tramvai> 6xAAA
[10:26] <Tramvai> 9V
[10:27] <craag> 9V then going into some kind of regulator I hope?
[10:27] <Tramvai> Arduino has one, I think
[10:28] <craag> Ok, the arduino regulator tends to not have enough power to run the GPS as well
[10:29] <Tramvai> Uhm.
[10:29] <craag> what arduino board are you using?
[10:29] <Tramvai> Uno.
[10:30] <craag> Yeah the regulator on that is rated to 50mA
[10:30] <craag> The GPS can pull more when trying to lock
[10:30] <craag> ALso the regulator might be getting a bit warm?
[10:31] <Tramvai> Not noticeably
[10:31] <craag> ok
[10:31] <craag> (I haven't used those boards)
[10:31] <craag> But you do probably need to get a decent regulator
[10:32] <craag> A switch-mode one will almost double your battery life when running from a high voltage like 9V
[10:32] <Tramvai> Sigh
[10:32] <Tramvai> New problems keep arising
[10:32] <craag> It happens to everyone
[10:32] <ed__> it's all part of learning
[10:32] <craag> I blew up 3 regulators building my first hab payload
[10:32] <gonzo_> it's a learing curve
[10:33] <ed__> soon all these problems you keep 'discovering' will actually be obvious in hindsight
[10:33] <Tramvai> Hm
[10:33] <ed__> and you would never get into the same situation if doing it again
[10:33] <ed__> learning ^
[10:33] <Tramvai> I'll have to drop the project for a year soon though
[10:33] <gonzo_> at least, not too many times
[10:34] <Tramvai> Conscription in my country forces me to join the defence forces for a year
[10:34] <craag> Ah
[10:34] <gonzo_> you can still do development in the eveniongs?
[10:34] <Tramvai> though, if lucky, might be able to fly it at the end of the next summer
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[10:35] <Tramvai> We're not allowed to have anything like that with us
[10:35] <Tramvai> Not even a MP3 player
[10:36] <gonzo_> that's a bit mean
[10:36] <Tramvai> Forcing people to join defence forces against their will alone is mean
[10:36] <craag> how long have you got until you have to go?
[10:36] <Tramvai> and frankly, it's not gonna work
[10:36] <Tramvai> A week
[10:36] <x-f> :/
[10:37] <Tramvai> I hope I'll receive the SMA connector before I go
[10:37] <Tramvai> Can finally get the antenna working properly
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> On the subject of transmissions.
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> 'They used a neutrino beam at Fermilab to send a short, encoded message through 240 meters of rock. Using the MINERvA neutrino detector, the scientists detected and deciphered the message, which read neutrino. Sending this simple message 240 meters required the worlds most powerful neutrino beam and took about 90 minutes.'
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> if anyone was thinking of using neutrinos. :)
[10:37] <craag> SpeedEvil: lol
[10:38] <Tramvai> that'd be useful for something reverse-HAB-like: send a drilling bot into the ground
[10:38] <mfa298> Idon't recall neutinos being mentioned as prohibited in ir2030 :p
[10:39] <ed__> it's a whitelist
[10:41] <Tramvai> Yeah, the power source ruins it
[10:42] <Tramvai> So... where and which regulator should I get?
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[10:42] <gonzo_> at least you would not have to get a notam for it
[10:43] <Ugi_> SpeedEvil: neutrinos not the medium of choice for HAB telemetry then?
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> Alas no.
[10:43] <Ugi_> At least there's no power limit!
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> they would nicely solve the 'landed in a valley' problem.
[10:43] <craag> Tramvai: I'm not sure what's available in your country, but pulling the circuit board out of a cheap car-accessory-usb adaptor would probably work.
[10:44] <craag> oh wait 9V
[10:44] <craag> No then
[10:44] <mfa298> might need the Babs mega gimbal thingy so you send the neutrino's to your receiver
[10:44] <Ugi_> At the expense of needing rather more helium to lift the mega-ton transmitter & power supply...
[10:44] <Tramvai> What power source do people usually use for their Arduinos?
[10:44] <craag> Try the LM2596 modules on ebay
[10:44] <craag> You'll need to set them to 5V output before connecting them up!
[10:46] <Tramvai> Huh?
[10:46] <craag> Tramvai: eg http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171031829268
[10:47] <craag> You put 9V from yor batteries in one end
[10:47] <Tramvai> Yeah, already got that: http://www.ebay.com/itm/171120450016
[10:47] <craag> Adjust the screw on the blue box until the output is 5V
[10:47] <craag> Then connect the 5V to the arduino
[10:47] <craag> (to 5V pin, not Voltage-In)
[10:48] <Tramvai> Uuum
[10:48] <craag> If you can find one sold in your country, that might be best, china post is not going to arrive in a week.
[10:48] <Tramvai> Yeah, I know
[10:50] <Ugi_> incidentally, does anyone know the circuit layout of a typical step-up voltage converter? In particular, I have several cheap emergency phone chargers that give 5v I would like to hack one for 3v3
[10:51] <Ugi_> do we know if that's possible/viable?
[10:51] <Ugi_> I have a feeling they are regulated by a zener diode
[10:51] <ed__> there are lots of ways of stepping up
[10:51] <ed__> all quite easy
[10:52] <ed__> zener diodes tend to be for regulating down
[10:52] <ed__> in a very cheap way
[10:53] <ed__> if you want a design, go to TI and try their webbench thing
[10:53] <Tramvai> Arduino wiki states the following on how to power the Arduino using an external power supply: an unregulated 6-20 V DC (7-12V recommended), which you can supply via the 2.1 mm centre-positive barrel plug connector.
[10:53] <Ugi_> OK. Cheap is pretty likely here. It's just that the circuit is about a tenth of the size and weight of anything I might build & might be nice for a pico-type launch
[10:53] <Tramvai> How come my 9V fails then?
[10:53] <ed__> which lets you input parameters (3.3V in, 5V out, current) and provides you designs optimised for whatever you want - board space, efficiency, whatever
[10:54] <craag> Tramvai: Because the arduino regulator is designed just to power the arduino and maybe some LEDs.
[10:54] <craag> Not a power-hungry GPS as well.
[10:54] <Tramvai> Ah, fair enough
[10:54] <craag> Are you running NTX2 off that as well?
[10:55] <Tramvai> Oh yes
[10:55] <Tramvai> And some LEDs. And a temperature sensor.
[10:55] <craag> I'm sure that's the issue then :)
[10:56] <Tramvai> And you claim I can power the Arduino by plugging a 5V power source into the 5V power output pin?
[10:56] <craag> let me check that..
[10:56] <ed__> it might not like 5V going back up its jacksie if it's a linear reg
[10:57] <Ugi_> when you power the Arduino from USB, where does it go?
[10:57] <Ugi_> (the powe that is)
[10:58] <craag> Ugi_: Just looking at that
[10:58] <craag> Does look like it goes straight into the 5V rail
[10:58] <craag> (through a diode arrangement)
[10:58] <craag> Tramvai: Yep, connect it to the 5V pin on the headers
[10:58] <Ugi_> I'm pretty sure craag is correct - and that people power Ardu's off 5v to the 5v rail all the time
[10:59] <craag> Tramvai: Just remember to make sure the module is set to 5V output first!
[10:59] <Tramvai> Yup
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[11:00] <Tramvai> Can I um...
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[11:01] <Tramvai> Anything I can use as an alternative power source temporarily?
[11:01] <Tramvai> Only a laptop?
[11:02] <Tramvai> Ah, nevermind.
[11:02] <Tramvai> Laptop's small enough to be carried around.
[11:02] <craag> unless you have anything else with 5V output lying around
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[11:18] <keydash> Hello
[11:25] <Laurenceb> no sign of B-12 last night then?
[11:27] <Laurenceb> looks like its probably down then
[11:28] <Laurenceb> wouldnt have expected it to fly much longer than this due to diffusion
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[11:31] Nick change: mattbrejza_ -> mattbrejza
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[11:38] <Upu> where did the participants list go from batc.tv ?
[11:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Its showing on mine
[11:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> They seem tohave arrived at the launch site
[11:39] <mfa298> I see it as well. although I don't see as many people listed as joining he chat
[11:40] <ramm25> i am alredy joined
[11:40] Action: craag logs in to how the server is doing..
[11:41] <fsphil> hehe
[11:41] <fsphil> this server needs memcache
[11:41] <mfa298> maybe I should have left my script showing mysql errors then I could see how it's failing
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[11:42] <craag> load average 2.4 - It's fine
[11:42] <craag> Only seeing about 10% cpu from mysql atm. That'll climb as more people join
[11:43] <mfa298> was only ~70 users just now in the list
[11:43] <mfa298> not the 420 that we had for launch #1
[11:43] <craag> Well not launching yet.. most people will be at lunch I guess
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[11:45] <craag> fsphil: It's mainly the horrible chat system
[11:45] <craag> I'm yet to find out what the chat db looks like..
[11:45] <fsphil> just looking at the javascript
[11:46] <mfa298> easy to scrap though https://gist.github.com/m1ari/6621996
[11:47] <fsphil> you don't have access to the db craag?
[11:47] <mfa298> I'm now wondering how easily I could have it show the number of online users somewhere.
[11:47] <Steffanx> lol, you included the mysql errors mfa298 :D
[11:48] <mfa298> Steffanx: the other day there were a *lot* of mysql errors
[11:48] <ramm25> Bambarbia
[11:48] <craag> fsphil: I have root access to the box, but no mysql password
[11:48] <fsphil> ah
[11:48] <craag> Still trying to work out where http root is
[11:48] <mfa298> tried a blank password
[11:49] <craag> more I dig, the more wtf pops up
[11:49] <Upu> hehe
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[11:49] <Hix> secret buried wtf craag?
[11:50] <mfa298> maybe you need to try: find / -type f -name \*php -ls
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[11:52] <cuddykid> does anyone have one of http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=171127968142 ?
[11:52] <cuddykid> I have two, one old version and one new
[11:53] <cuddykid> commands have changed for new version and wondering what they are
[11:53] <cuddykid> used to be text 222+passcode to turn GPS on 223+passcode to turn GPS off and 666+passcode for location
[11:53] <cuddykid> but these no longer work!
[11:54] <cuddykid> I'm wrong - 666 works but there doesn't seem an option to turn on/off GPS which is a nuisance as it drains the battery fast
[11:55] <fsphil> so the batc chat just spits out javascript. not ideal :)
[11:56] <mattbrejza> can you put html into it...
[11:56] <mfa298> you tell it which id you last got and it spits out JS for each new entry
[11:56] <mfa298> some html certainly comes through
[11:56] <craag> mattbrejza :|
[11:57] <craag> mfa298: what url do you call for that?
[11:57] <fsphil> this would be trivial to cache
[11:57] <mfa298> I'm seeing <br /> and <span> in the log
[11:57] <mfa298> craag: both the chat url is the second one in the gist I posted earlier
[11:57] <fsphil> maybe it already does
[11:58] <mattbrejza> hahaha
[11:58] <fsphil> lol
[11:58] <mfa298> based on the mysql errors I saw the other day I don't think it's caching anything
[11:58] <adamgreig> nuke it from orbit
[11:58] <adamgreig> only way to be sure
[11:58] <fsphil> indeed
[11:58] <fsphil> fixing this would be too painful
[11:59] <mfa298> damn, my console version doesn't show images
[11:59] <mfa298> at least you can't exploit js bugs in my browser that way
[12:00] <craag> Found the php side..
[12:00] <craag> it's fun
[12:00] <mfa298> simple fix: rm <php file>
[12:01] <mattbrejza> so not everyone can see the cat?
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[12:01] <craag> each url is a minimal script that includes 'functions3.php' (a massive file) and then calls the respective functions.
[12:01] <mfa298> I saw the cat on the batc window
[12:01] <fsphil> !!
[12:01] <mattbrejza> hmm what other html do i know
[12:01] <mfa298> my console version just said:
[12:01] <mfa298> 19/09 12:57 guest506 <img src=\"http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/69911000/jpg/_69911854_toxo_624_61854.jpg\">
[12:01] <mattbrejza> you do you get flashing text?
[12:01] <mattbrejza> oh
[12:01] <fsphil> hah, yea I see the cat
[12:01] <Laurenceb> marquee
[12:02] <fsphil> please don't hack my browser
[12:02] <mfa298> don't think I've seen any other post from guest 506
[12:02] <craag> seriously, can you put a js include in it?
[12:02] <mfa298> no html around the testing
[12:02] <mattbrejza> derp
[12:02] <fsphil> probably
[12:02] <fsphil> if you can do <img
[12:03] <fsphil> why not <javascript
[12:03] <craag> :((((((
[12:03] <craag> please dont
[12:03] <Upu> ouch
[12:03] <fsphil> you'd need to put htmlentities() on any input
[12:03] <mattbrejza> so <img > works but not <marquee > :/
[12:03] <fsphil> or at least where it gets output to the javascript
[12:04] <mfa298> <span> seems to work so you might manage it with some styles
[12:05] <Maxell> http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/19/helium-shortage-us-reservoir-texas
[12:05] <fsphil> it's possible its coded to only allow certain html tags
[12:06] <mattbrejza> blink doesnt work either
[12:06] <fsphil> blink was removed from firefox
[12:06] <fsphil> though I'm not seeing the html coming through at all
[12:06] <mattbrejza> and chrome
[12:06] <mattbrejza> it seems
[12:06] <fsphil> <div class="cauthor">guest506</div> : <div class="ctext"> ttesting </div>
[12:07] <fsphil> so it seems to be stripping certain codes
[12:07] <mattbrejza> so it only allows images?
[12:07] <mfa298> I'm wondering if <span style="text-decoration:blink">blink</span> might work
[12:07] <fsphil> possibly only allows span and img
[12:07] <mfa298> it comes through the filters
[12:08] <mfa298> but the " are escaped
[12:08] <fsphil> see that
[12:08] <mfa298> <span style=\"text-decoration:blink\">meow</span>
[12:08] <fsphil> hmm
[12:08] <craag> to top it all off, it uses php-mysql
[12:08] <craag> can't see any escaping at all
[12:08] <fsphil> eek
[12:08] <mattbrejza> well that code doesnt even work in a .html file in chrome
[12:09] cururcucu (58196f94@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.25.111.148) joined #highaltitude.
[12:09] <craag> but it's such a mess I'm probably just missing it
[12:09] <mfa298> that was a quick bit I found in a forum
[12:10] cururcucu (58196f94@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.25.111.148) left irc: Client Quit
[12:10] <mfa298> hmm, that blink example was from 2006
[12:10] <mfa298> so medieval times for web
[12:11] <mattbrejza> messed that up
[12:11] <mfa298> the embed code came through
[12:11] <mfa298> as does the iframe
[12:12] <craag> if I could nuke this per-stream, this would be nuked now.
[12:13] <fsphil> iframe? oooch
[12:13] <mfa298> I saw: <iframe src=http://www.google.com>
[12:13] PH3V (~renetuijt@ip5456e3dc.speed.planet.nl) joined #highaltitude.
[12:13] <craag> Yeah iframe was me
[12:14] <fsphil> yea the quites are missing
[12:14] <craag> and it appeared
[12:14] <mfa298> and the <embed> just before
[12:14] <Upu> SIGH
[12:14] <Upu> don't do that :)
[12:15] <mattbrejza> ok im done
[12:15] <craag> I think you guys have proved this enough thanks
[12:15] <mfa298> I think it's been proved that the batc chat app is utter crap
[12:15] <fsphil> now we need something better
[12:15] <mattbrejza> i was nice and set loop="false" at least
[12:16] <craag> I need to get an irc host set up, then I can move it all over
[12:16] <mfa298> 142 people on batc chat now
[12:17] simrun (~simrun@gateway/shell/freebnc/x-uweaowwowowzirsq) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[12:17] <mfa298> just hope they don't realise how bad the chat from that testing
[12:17] <mattbrejza> i wonder how many had their sound on
[12:17] <G0TDJ_Steve> I did....
[12:17] <craag> I had it turned right up :(
[12:17] <fsphil> I was listening to skrillex
[12:17] <craag> I thought it was wind-noise off the stream at first, then wtf
[12:17] <nerdsville> computer started meowing and then browser crashed.. thx ;-)
[12:18] simrun (~simrun@gateway/shell/freebnc/x-eczudjlxmeooswlv) joined #highaltitude.
[12:18] <mfa298> should have been benny hill (from earlier comments)
[12:18] jnew (18d49f2d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.212.159.45) joined #highaltitude.
[12:18] <G0TDJ_Steve> My PC jumped into a box....
[12:18] <fsphil> hah
[12:18] <fsphil> "This plugin is disabled"
[12:19] <f5vnf> thats what i got
[12:19] krikkit (504fd006@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.79.208.6) joined #highaltitude.
[12:19] G____ (5ec2eaed@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.194.234.237) joined #highaltitude.
[12:20] <mattbrejza> no idea what an .oga file actually is mind you (other than audio)
[12:20] krikkit (504fd006@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.79.208.6) left irc: Client Quit
[12:20] <G0TDJ_Steve> What's the name of LOHAN's launch location please?
[12:20] <nerdsville> so it is you lot messing about? or is it a load of evil hackers?
[12:20] LZ1NY (550e2662@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.14.38.98) left #highaltitude.
[12:20] <mfa298> I assumed some sort of ogg file
[12:21] <f5vnf> i cant keep up with all these differnet pages
[12:21] <fsphil> mattbrejza: ogg audio
[12:21] <mattbrejza> that was my guess, but why not .ogg
[12:21] <mattbrejza> o well
[12:21] <mfa298> nerdsville: if it was evil hackers it wouldn't have been cats (you probably wouldn't own your browser any more)
[12:21] <G0TDJ_Steve> Daveake What's the name of your launch location please?
[12:22] <mattbrejza> or it would be covered in porn
[12:22] <nerdsville> whats new? mattbrejza ;-)
[12:23] chem (5f78f448@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.120.244.72) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[12:23] <mfa298> looks like oga is supposed to be audio only ogg.
[12:25] <nerdsville> oh dear, might have to stop video disrupting my co-workers skype call to his Thai wife.. don't ask!
[12:27] <craag> Oh god, that audio clip runs every time you reload the page!
[12:27] <craag> time to get into this db..
[12:27] <fsphil> I'm glad firefox disabled java by default
[12:28] <fsphil> I'd just get rid of all html tags on the output
[12:28] <fsphil> you'd lose the bold/italic/underline bit but... meh
[12:28] <craag> We're moving to the IRC solution
[12:29] <fsphil> as a temporary fix I mean
[12:29] <G0TDJ_Steve> Phil, does that mean it will be combined in this channel?
[12:29] <craag> I've sent Noel an email that if it was my decision I'd take it down now, but I'll do it this evening. It may not be 100% but at least it won't get filled up with porn and popups.
[12:30] <craag> fsphil: I would, but I'm still trying to get my head around the structure, and need to get back to real work :/
[12:30] <fsphil> know the feeling
[12:31] <mfa298> I think there's probably enough proof that if anyone outside of the people playing earlier posted embeded stuff then it would be an imediate kill the chat (working on the principle that we've proved the issues and won't be posting more interesting html)
[12:32] <craag> Yeah I've left a root shell open and will keep an eye on it.
[12:33] <fsphil> what happens to all this video Lester takes? they never seem to end up on anything
[12:33] <WillDWork> just check if bash is working ok craag :(){ :|:& };:
[12:34] <craag> WillDWork: I should run that on the server right? :P
[12:34] <WillDWork> yeah - why not eh ;)
[12:35] <craag> G0TDJ_Steve: It could be, although others have pointed out that it might get very crowded in here for the big launches. We'll see what we can do and maybe have it configurable at some point.
[12:35] <mfa298> hmmm, the checking in that code is bad: F1VJQnbsp joined the chat
[12:35] <G0TDJ_Steve> Sounds good Phil
[12:35] <mfa298> looks like it just striped the & and ; from nbsp
[12:36] <mfa298> then again after what we've already shown I'm not surprised
[12:36] <fsphil> it does that a lot
[12:36] <mfa298> it's like it's just doing a preg_replace for anyting not in [a-zA-Z0-9] on /nick changes
[12:37] <mfa298> which at least is vaguely secure for nick changes
[12:37] <mattbrejza> i cant set my nick to a image then? :(
[12:38] jim_g3wgm (5244226e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.68.34.110) joined #highaltitude.
[12:38] <mfa298> there did appear to be someone witha blank nick earlier
[12:38] <fsphil> it's starting to slow now
[12:39] <craag> Server load: 7.2
[12:39] <craag> That'll be why...
[12:39] <fsphil> aye
[12:39] <mfa298> hmm, looks like someone just tried posting a word doc or similar
[12:39] <fsphil> is the new setup ready to be dropped in?
[12:40] <craag> fsphil: Not in the slightest. I've only just got access to see what we're working with :/
[12:40] <fsphil> the old code could be made safe fairly easily I suspect
[12:40] <craag> I do have a webirc system with history set up on another project though.
[12:41] <craag> So just need to set up a new irc server, sort out channel infrastructure and bung it in.
[12:41] <mfa298> up to 251 users listed in the online box
[12:41] <craag> anyway, work calls.
[12:42] <mattbrejza> i wonder how many of them have sound :P
[12:42] <fsphil> someone's already mentioned the cat
[12:43] <fsphil> the limit on the comment length is rather big, if it has one
[12:43] <mattbrejza> not as many as you would expect though
[12:43] <mfa298> I'm not sure there is a limit
[12:43] <fsphil> java's not nearly as popular as it used to be
[12:43] <mattbrejza> its not java
[12:43] <fsphil> oh
[12:43] <mattbrejza> <embed name="kitty" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Purring_cat.oga" loop="false" hidden="true" autostart="true">
[12:43] <fsphil> I thought that's why my firefox disabled it
[12:43] <fsphil> ah ha
[12:44] <fsphil> IE won't play that, but ff and chrome will
[12:44] <fsphil> opera too, but nobody uses that
[12:44] <Hix> cue "Space" rage at the New Scientist link from the mailing list
[12:44] <mfa298> there was a: 19/09 13:38 guest829 <!--[if gte mso 9]> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View>
[12:44] <mfa298> which continues for a Kb or more
[12:45] <fsphil> that's what made me wonder
[12:45] number10 (1f6f1435@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.111.20.53) joined #highaltitude.
[12:45] <mfa298> there's three screens on my 131x50 window
[12:45] <WillDWork> launch?
[12:45] Action: mfa298 does sums
[12:46] <daveake> launched yes
[12:46] <mfa298> ~2kb of data
[12:46] <daveake> pretty easy
[12:46] <Hix> I'm sure CUSF might have sometihing to say about a commercial outfit using their predistor for commercial gain too "On our website, we link to software that helps you make quite accurate predictions about where it will land"
[12:46] <mattbrejza> adamgreig: jonsowman ^
[12:47] <adamgreig> lol
[12:47] pe1nkv (d594e2a9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.148.226.169) joined #highaltitude.
[12:47] <adamgreig> where is this?
[12:47] <adamgreig> oh
[12:47] <adamgreig> that link
[12:47] <adamgreig> let's see
[12:47] <mattbrejza> mailing list
[12:47] <malgar> what are the green and blue circles?
[12:48] <adamgreig> I don't think they actually do link to us?
[12:49] <mattbrejza> they dont seem to
[12:49] <craag> adamgreig: They don't, it appears you have to pay them for that bit.
[12:49] <adamgreig> lol
[12:49] <G0TDJ_Steve> malgar Blue circle is the 0deg footprint, green circle is the 5deg footprint
[12:49] <Hix> adamgreig www.sentintospace.com
[12:50] <adamgreig> I don't see any incoming entries with their site as referrer in the logs
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[12:50] <G____> mfa298 - that was me, just checking spelling and copied and pasted from word, sorry
[12:50] <Hix> oh ffs "exploring space just became affordable."
[12:50] <adamgreig> fuckers
[12:51] <Hix> adamgreig it's prpobably on a sheet in the kits they intend to sell
[12:51] <Hix> I'd be pissed, I bet they never even consulted the owners
[12:51] <adamgreig> which owners?
[12:51] <adamgreig> I mean it's a public service that we want everyone to use, right
[12:51] <Hix> CUSF - past or present
[12:52] <mfa298> I think the new scientist article did comment at the bottom that it's really near space not space but everything else said space
[12:52] <adamgreig> they definitely didn't consult us ;)
[12:52] <adamgreig> but like.. it's open source and publically available
[12:52] <Hix> use, not profit from, not in the UKHAS spirit at all from my understanding
[12:52] <adamgreig> it's good that they link to us rather than don't link to us
[12:52] <mattbrejza> theres a difference betweeen advising people of a service (the predictor) and say embedding it in their commerical website
[12:52] <adamgreig> in the same way at least they seem to indicate that people need CAA service
[12:52] <mattbrejza> so linking to it would be fine?
[12:52] iain_G4SGX (~iain@175.81.90.146.dyn.plus.net) joined #highaltitude.
[12:52] <adamgreig> and I mean, habduino is a thing, it will no doubt be linking to the predictor too
[12:53] <adamgreig> plus we don't even know it's our predictor they're talking about
[12:53] <adamgreig> could be linking to that shit american one
[12:53] <adamgreig> it's a shame they're not getting involved with ukhas, since they've probably found out about us
[12:53] <adamgreig> but I mean, I don't see any other grounds to be getting annoyed at them
[12:54] <adamgreig> (if they were linking to the predictor I'd still have it troll anyone coming from that referrer link though)
[12:54] <Hix> habduino is not a complete solution. As Upu stated at the conf, you still need to get it working and build a payload
[12:54] <adamgreig> "hi! thinking of giving these charlatans money? don't! ukhas.org.uk"
[12:54] <adamgreig> yea well
[12:54] <Hix> heh - i would :D
[12:54] <adamgreig> it comes with hardware and code
[12:54] <Hix> as in the message
[12:54] <adamgreig> you still need to buy a balloon I guess
[12:55] <adamgreig> but like, project aether sell full kits on amazon too
[12:55] <adamgreig> and theirs are insane
[12:55] SilentListener (58bcbc7c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.188.188.124) joined #highaltitude.
[12:55] <malgar> are PIE and SPEARS identical and launched at the same time?
[12:55] <gonzo_> no different from steve or dave using the tools for commercial flight. Apart from they are 'one of us'
[12:55] <daveake> 2 trackers same box
[12:55] <adamgreig> indeed. or anyone else using them for a commercial flight - steve and dave are far from the only ones
[12:56] <gonzo_> (not both being one, but each being one in their own right)
[12:56] <adamgreig> everyone benefits from everybody having access to good tools
[12:56] <ed__> yeah the 'we're in charge you need to do it through us' thing is an attitude i find terrible and have talked about a lot in the past
[12:56] <malgar> ahh same box! so one balloon! one for ssdv and the other for tracking?
[12:56] <ed__> UKRA get annoyed if people do amatuer rocketry without them often
[12:56] <adamgreig> ed__: formalisation! insurance!
[12:56] Action: adamgreig kicks the horse some more
[12:56] <ed__> UKSEDS always seemed to think that CUSF should be under their umbrella
[12:56] <adamgreig> UKSEDS are fantastic
[12:56] <adamgreig> did you see their recommended club activities?
[12:57] <adamgreig> "watch a space movie"
[12:57] <adamgreig> couldn't make this shit up
[12:57] <ed__> it's a terrible terrible gene that seems to afflict some people
[12:57] <ed__> 'i want you to do this in my tiny pond that i'm a big fish in so i can keep on being a big fish'
[12:57] <malgar> daveake: esimated max altitude?
[12:57] <ed__> ham radio crowd are sometimes great (eg here) and sometimes not, in that regard too
[12:58] <daveake> 36.5km
[12:58] <adamgreig> other suggested activities for a ukseds branch include a "space food fest" - "make space-themed food (cakes are always popular) and then eat it afterwards. this could be made into a competition between members."
[12:58] <nats`> hi
[12:58] <ed__> adamgreig, i was being rude about UKSEDS at REL the other day
[12:58] <ed__> to someone who then announced himself the chairman of ukseds
[12:58] <adamgreig> that's not entirely fair to them - the other activities include HABing and they actually linked to ukhas.org.uk
[12:58] <adamgreig> hahaha well done
[12:58] <ed__> but because i know i'm right and he's wrong, it wasn't embarassing
[12:58] <Hix> heh - good work ed__
[12:58] <G0TDJ_Steve> daveake: Not far to go fpr recovery if the predictions hold true
[12:58] <daveake> nope
[12:59] <adamgreig> they also suggest people do model rocketry and link to ukra, mars etc, and pulse jets
[12:59] <adamgreig> and suggest people get involved in amateur radio
[12:59] <adamgreig> but like
[12:59] <adamgreig> space food fest?
[12:59] <adamgreig> really?
[12:59] <gonzo_> I like the "On top of being awesome, projects give you the chance to be involved in the design, management, and construction of . "
[12:59] <adamgreig> ( DanielRichman: we should have a cusf space food fest, i will bake the cakes and cookies)
[13:00] <gonzo_> I know engineers are crap at english, but.....
[13:00] <adamgreig> ed__: anyway ukseds continue to email cusf on a regular basis asking us to affiliate
[13:00] <adamgreig> maybe I should send some emails from ukhas to cusf asking us to affiliate with us
[13:00] <gonzo_> ukhas food fest. Pig out on bacon butties
[13:00] <ed__> yes
[13:00] <adamgreig> that would be so great
[13:00] <adamgreig> should have had bacon butties at the conf
[13:00] <ed__> i'm not sure what 'affiliate' means
[13:00] <ed__> this is a point i put to jeremy
[13:00] <mattbrejza> tbh send emails from cusf to ukseds to get them to affiliate as part of cusf :P
[13:01] <adamgreig> haha
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: Freeze dried potatos are the traditional high altitude food.
[13:01] <adamgreig> when we were filthy rich we were considering sponsoring some of the other engineering socs
[13:01] number10 (1f6f1435@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.111.20.53) joined #highaltitude.
[13:01] <adamgreig> and thus getting our logo in their sponsor section
[13:01] <adamgreig> but in the end, we just got stickers made up and covered all the other team's stuff in our logo anyway
[13:01] <adamgreig> I don't think they ever got all the stickers off
[13:02] <adamgreig> apparently sentintospace has been developing these kits for 2 years
[13:02] <adamgreig> can confirm they use our predictor: https://twitter.com/Sent_into_space/status/201235342022545409
[13:04] <adamgreig> Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found life arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the stratosphere.
[13:04] <adamgreig> hmmmmmmmmm
[13:04] <Hix> ggs
[13:05] <adamgreig> Our conclusion then is that life is continually arriving to Earth from space, life is not restricted to this planet and it almost certainly did not originate here.
[13:05] <Hix> that how bad that was it changed ffs to ggs
[13:05] <adamgreig> someone needs some bayes
[13:05] <malgar> what is that long boom visible from ssdv?
[13:05] <ed__> adamgreig, could you forward me an example current affiliation request email?
[13:06] <adamgreig> P(bacteria coming from space | found results on balloon) = P(found results on balloon | bacteria coming from space) P(bacteria come from space all the time every day) / P(found bacteria on poorly steralised balloon)
[13:06] <adamgreig> oh no my calculator can't work out numbers that small!
[13:06] <Upu> well I did say at the conference I predicted people would be offering kits
[13:06] <mattbrejza> any idea how they do telemetry?
[13:07] <Upu> no idea
[13:07] <Upu> I think best thing we can do is get them on board
[13:07] <adamgreig> sure. the @gmail address?
[13:07] <adamgreig> maybe some formal representative from ukhas should email and ask them to affiliate
[13:07] <Hix> voted ed__
[13:08] <adamgreig> haha
[13:08] <adamgreig> or we could just send upu round their house with a stick and some backup
[13:08] <ed__> at gmail yep
[13:08] <Upu> well just come and speak to us
[13:08] <Upu> lol
[13:08] <Upu> students
[13:08] <Upu> at Sheffield
[13:08] <Hix> damn Yorkshire ;p
[13:08] <Upu> I'll fire an e-mail there way when I can be bothered
[13:08] <ed__> yeah, don't brow beat
[13:08] <adamgreig> getting them to use ukhas telem would be nice
[13:08] <ed__> ukhas has had it when it becomes brow-beating
[13:09] <Upu> lets get some more information before we draw any conclusions
[13:09] <Upu> they may have been on here
[13:09] <ed__> but if they join because we provide the best ecosystem, all the better
[13:09] <malgar> has someone ever tried to track and record the balloon using a telescope?
[13:09] <mattbrejza> well what else do they use? can only really be spot/gsm
[13:09] <Upu> they have an awfully large number of images
[13:09] <adamgreig> oh
[13:09] <adamgreig> pretty sure they use gsm mattbrejza
[13:09] <Upu> face palm if the "kit" is just SPOT and GSM
[13:09] <adamgreig> given their twitter is full of iOS maps screenshots with pins
[13:09] <adamgreig> I'd be highly surprised it it had SPOT
[13:09] <Upu> jesus
[13:09] <adamgreig> suspect just GSM
[13:09] <adamgreig> but can't be sure - they say they've spent 2 years developing
[13:09] <adamgreig> so could well be a radio
[13:09] <mattbrejza> but how did they spend 2 yrs developing that :/
[13:10] <Upu> lol
[13:10] <adamgreig> just, if radio then you require ground side radio
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[13:10] <adamgreig> so possibly doesn't have radio
[13:10] <adamgreig> just gsm would be a shame
[13:10] <Upu> I'll mail them see what the "kit" contains
[13:10] <ed__> i think a lot of people would spend 2 years deveoping a tracker if they didn't find ukhas
[13:10] <adamgreig> then upsell them on a batch order of habduinos? ;)
[13:10] <ed__> our progress at the very beginning of cusf was a bit slower as none of this shared knowledge existed
[13:10] <Upu> lol nah
[13:10] <adamgreig> seriously, you both win if they can bundle habduinos with the kits
[13:10] <mattbrejza> http://hexoc.com/apex/apex-i.html the no-ukhas payload :D
[13:10] <Upu> Wish my eye would sort itself out so I could get moving on that
[13:11] <malgar> do you feel so much the competition with other groups? :P
[13:11] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: the amount of effort that went into that!
[13:11] <adamgreig> I still love how you worked out like free space path loss and link power and stuff
[13:11] <mattbrejza> we made circular polarized tx/rx antennas
[13:11] <mattbrejza> well i did
[13:12] <adamgreig> lol
[13:12] <mattbrejza> swr'ed them and everthnig
[13:12] <adamgreig> My First Payload was entirely made in an afternoon with an arduino and whatever I could find lying around
[13:12] <adamgreig> old GPS, dodgy ntx2, scraps of other code
[13:12] <mattbrejza> that took like 9-10months i think, the three of us
[13:12] <adamgreig> duct tape
[13:13] <adamgreig> and a quick run to sainsburies to buy biscuits and straws for the antenna
[13:13] <adamgreig> lol
[13:13] <adamgreig> that^ was with jon too, we had a great time
[13:13] <mattbrejza> i orginally made a 144MHz QFH antenna for that thing
[13:13] <DanielRichman> oh ukseds
[13:14] <DanielRichman> to be fair the most recent affiliation attempt was another student (for whatever reason) creating a UKSEDS Cambridge branch and wanted us to get involved or something, rather than a direct request from UKSEDs
[13:14] <DanielRichman> they regularly email us crap though. Did we volunteer to be on that mailing list?
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[13:15] <adamgreig> DanielRichman: haha no
[13:15] <adamgreig> also oh yea!!
[13:15] <adamgreig> I remember that guy
[13:15] <adamgreig> jeez
[13:15] <adamgreig> DanielRichman: the worst is
[13:15] <adamgreig> check out the email list for all of them
[13:16] <adamgreig> every bloody email they send is to 13 socs in total
[13:16] <adamgreig> (which is a bit poor)
[13:16] <adamgreig> sorry, 13 email addresses
[13:16] <number10> adamgreig: you have to tell me where the buiscuits were used on the antenna
[13:16] <DanielRichman> I wonder if he got anywhere with it
[13:16] <number10> :p
[13:16] <adamgreig> like astronomical.society@durham.ac.uk, and space.society@studentclubs.ox.ac.uk
[13:16] <adamgreig> and like adam@adamgreig.com
[13:16] <ed__> well anyway, i feel a bit bad for being so mean about ukseds to this chap
[13:16] <mfa298> wasnt there a sheffield lot trying 868MHz recently (start of the summer)
[13:16] <adamgreig> literally he emails me every bulletin and announcement personally
[13:17] <ed__> so i have emailed to offer to explain all the ways i think it could be better over a beer
[13:17] <craag> mfa298: Yes... that could be what they use
[13:18] <mattbrejza> mfa298: wasnt that warwick?
[13:18] <mattbrejza> the mars thing?
[13:18] <mfa298> ah might have been.
[13:18] <craag> oh yeah
[13:18] <mattbrejza> https://twitter.com/marsballoon
[13:18] <mfa298> I just remembered it was oop norf. but then almost everyone is up north from here
[13:19] <adamgreig> ed__: indeed. well it'd be interesting to see if they take you up on it
[13:19] <adamgreig> they seem to be full of people who are keen about space but maybe their aspirations are "eventually graduate and work for SSTL" rather than "launch my own stuff"
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[13:20] <DanielRichman> the ukseds site says bristol is building a rockoon
[13:20] <adamgreig> bristol has been building a rockoon for years
[13:21] Nick change: wally__ -> Guest91026
[13:21] <adamgreig> their website even had some sketches
[13:21] <adamgreig> as far as I'm aware they're yet to launch a balloon
[13:21] <mattbrejza> the soton 'branch' joined with Euroavia if anyone has heard of those people
[13:21] <Hix> what batteries are they using for marsballoon? look like some alkaline d cells
[13:21] <ed__> well exactly
[13:22] <adamgreig> in other news
[13:22] <adamgreig> http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/19/watch-a-cat-unlock-the-iphone-5s-using-touch-id-and-the-fingerprint-sensor/
[13:22] <adamgreig> fingerprint sensors: also ok for cats
[13:22] <ed__> taking a small bunch of bright people (cusf) and adding loads of other people into the loop at other universities in the name of 'collaboration' just sounds like a way of slowing things down for everyone
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[13:24] <Hix> hilarious http://istouchidhackedyet.com/
[13:24] <Hix> "@violetblue - $100, a dirty sex book, and a bottle of Bulleit Bourbon "
[13:24] <DanielRichman> https://www.facebook.com/events/168965129949714/ :-( looks lonely
[13:25] <DanielRichman> </ukseds bashing>
[13:25] <DanielRichman> (or atleast on my part, you are welcome to continue :P)
[13:25] <adamgreig> lol six people
[13:25] <adamgreig> BYOtelescope
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[13:27] <iain_G4SGX> The SSDV link is wrong on the map?
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[13:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> Go to the main page or /PIE
[13:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> The link is to the /CHAV page hat is now empty
[13:28] <Peevester> They're parked in Landa trying to catch it going overhead?
[13:28] <daveake> ah needs to be changed
[13:29] <daveake> waiting for burst then see where it's going
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[13:29] <Peevester> So here's PIE, http://ssdv.habhub.org/PIE does CHAV have a page too? I like the boom view though
[13:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/LOHAN_TEST_20130919/index.php?ind=2
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[13:32] <Peevester> Oh, ha, That's Langa not Landa, the car was on the caption
[13:33] <Peevester> crazy how well spacenear can plot out the course
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[13:36] <Peevester> well this looks like it's going to be an easier recovery...
[13:36] <daveake> yup
[13:37] <LeeE> There seem to be more ssdv packets being lost on this flight than on previous flights - any idea why?
[13:38] g8zbj (021b2122@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.27.33.34) joined #highaltitude.
[13:38] <Peevester> This is better than Monday
[13:38] <number10> only one listener
[13:41] <g8kbz> and 45 degree elevation. Possible poor signal?
[13:41] <martinus> Are the vertical blue lines indicative of positional messages recieved?
[13:42] <g8kbz> if you're referring to the blue bars in the boxes to the right, Altitude
[13:42] <martinus> I'm looking at http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/LOHAN_TEST_20130919/index.php?ind=2
[13:43] <g8kbz> Yes, altitude. You're seeing the altitude profile of the flight so far
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[13:43] <Peevester> then you're probably right, that seems to correspond to the waypoints on the map
[13:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes each vert is the location when the data was received
[13:44] <martinus> If it's only altitude how has the map creator determined the direction?
[13:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> It plots location and height from the telemetry
[13:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> it doesn't plot direction
[13:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> just links up waypoint to waypoint called a Track
[13:45] <martinus> Ah, yes. I guess thinking of it in terms of location makes more sense. :)
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[13:46] <Peevester> whoops, landing position change
[13:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> If you have GE loaded then click the link in the lower right corner of the spacenear.us page then it will plot in GE
[13:47] <fsphil> they're flying a but further south than predicted
[13:47] <fsphil> bit*
[13:47] <Hix> when did CPC drop the minimum order value and give free delivery?
[13:47] <fsphil> since they started charging a "handling" charge Hix
[13:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> About 2 -3 months agp
[13:47] <Hix> just ordered the WSM-270 magmount
[13:47] <Peevester> Ha, aiming now for the only wooded space for several miles
[13:47] <martinus> Are the telemetry packets(?) are being recieved at a fixed rate or are the verts simply those packets that were recieved?
[13:48] <Hix> gonna give it some speed trials on the M25 ;)
[13:48] <martinus> ignore my spelling of received. :D
[13:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> Just the ones that are received and fed back to the Habitat server
[13:48] <Hix> fsphil i seeno handling charge?
[13:48] <adamgreig> haha oh boy
[13:48] <fsphil> hmm
[13:48] <adamgreig> M6ODP
[13:49] <adamgreig> anyone want to hazard a guess on ODP
[13:49] <Hix> fsphil https://cpc.farnell.com/images/en_CC/FreeDelivery_RBHPJuly13.jpg
[13:49] <Peevester> the path is getting kind of weird, caught in an updraft or something
[13:49] <adamgreig> you have a few seconds before I approve this
[13:49] Action: fsphil already knows who ODP is :)
[13:49] <martinus> Very cool. Is packets the correct term? Apologies for not being au-fait with the terminology.
[13:49] <fsphil> packets works. though they're sometimes called strings, or lines
[13:49] <number10> i guess is oli
[13:49] <mattbrejza> packets/frames/sentences/messages/strings/lines
[13:50] <fsphil> ah yes, frames and sentences
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[13:50] <adamgreig> he is deadly serious tho
[13:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> Humm didn't know I'd left
[13:51] <G0TDJ_Steve> Habitat should stack multiple payloads
[13:51] <Peevester> na, you want both readings
[13:52] <fsphil> what if one starts putting out bad data?
[13:52] <Peevester> ^^^
[13:52] <G0TDJ_Steve> One balloon icon and a box for each payload underneath
[13:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> And what happens when they seperate shortly!
[13:52] <Peevester> getting close to Monday's max altitude
[13:52] <G0TDJ_Steve> Habitat shouldbe intelligent enough to split the entries
[13:52] <fsphil> interesting images
[13:52] <Peevester> and going straight up looks like
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[13:53] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[13:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/LOHAN_TEST_20130919/index.php?ind=4
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[13:55] <iain_G4SGX> Excuse my laziness for not looking on web, but is this flight to test the ignition of a rocket, is that what's on the end of the boom?
[13:56] <Peevester> May be doing the same thing as Monday, using the igniter to drop the glider
[13:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Just of the Ignitor itself, don't think the rocket is attached...
[13:56] <mattbrejza> i think dave said its a tiny motor to just test the ignitor
[13:56] <malgar2> but what's the main project? Launch a rocket from stratosphere?
[13:56] <malgar2> or a glider?
[13:57] <malgar2> or both?
[13:57] <daveake> Testig ignitor and cutdown pyros
[13:57] <daveake> no plane
[13:57] <Peevester> spears isn't talking
[13:57] <Peevester> or not receiving anyway
[13:59] <daveake> Just a bit weak here
[13:59] <daveake> Surrounded by houses
[13:59] <daveake> But we traded a poorer signal for the shade :p
[13:59] <Peevester> getting signal from PIE though
[14:00] <Peevester> hm, or maybe not, 90 seconds since last fix.
[14:00] <fsphil> interesting little detour
[14:00] <fsphil> that wasn't predicted
[14:00] <Peevester> whoops, there we go.
[14:01] <malgar2> those antennas at A Coruna and Tolouse aren't receiving anything? still to low?
[14:01] <fsphil> depends on local geography
[14:01] <fsphil> with a flat horizon, EA1EXV
[14:01] <fsphil> should be receiving
[14:03] <malgar2> is EA1EXV fully automatic 24h or is there an user actively monitoring? I really would know the setup of that station
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[14:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> This is EA1EXV's location https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.538407,-8.105378&spn=0.019973,0.048366&t=p&z=15&key=ABQIAAAAeMKbTrWgK8lcXVYCoI2vVBS-snRltXcxX7Bn7KMk0LMTZbe4mxTc5UK_2QgLgj_g2DKhvk6A5z00Eg&sensor=false&mapclient=jsapi&oi=map_misc
[14:06] <malgar2> veru hilly
[14:06] <malgar2> very
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[14:09] <Peevester> does the charge go off at exactly 30000m, or at burst?
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[14:10] <Peevester> well hello SPEARS
[14:11] <Peevester> 30k, nice!
[14:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/LOHAN_TEST_20130919/View%20of%20Balloon%20from%20bar.jpg
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[14:12] <Peevester> Dangit Geoff, I keep trying to drag your images around!
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[14:12] <Peevester> snort
[14:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> That comes later ;-)
[14:13] <malgar2> the footprint is wide almost all outside the spain+portugal borders
[14:15] <Peevester> crossing fingers on the igniter test...
[14:16] <Peevester> Will you be able to tell from the ground if it went off?
[14:16] <G0TDJ_Steve> Peevester: The decent rate on the tracker goes up quickly
[14:17] <Peevester> I mean the igniter, not the balloon
[14:17] <nerdsville> EA1EXV decoding yah!
[14:17] <Peevester> yeah, saw that
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[14:17] <G0TDJ_Steve> Sorry, no I have no idea. I'm surprised they didn't out a sensor to add to the telemetry
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[14:21] <Peevester> the course plot hasn't been so accurate today
[14:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> Humm no cut down ?
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[14:21] <Peevester> still going up
[14:21] <SP3OSJ> #habhub
[14:22] <Peevester> time to fiddle with the brastrap
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[14:26] <massini> hi All
[14:27] <Maxell> Hello!
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[14:27] <malgar2> hi
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[14:28] <SushiKenBrown> hello
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[14:28] <Peevester> hm, no more burst forecast on the map
[14:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its backdown south again
[14:30] <Peevester> Jane stop this crazy thing
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[14:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> Making up for the rip last time!
[14:31] <Peevester> yeah, seriously, almost double the altitude
[14:31] <Peevester> well, not realluy
[14:31] <Peevester> still, wow
[14:31] <gbruenetti> when should it go poof?
[14:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> Any time!
[14:32] <Peevester> speed, 70km/h? Wha?
[14:33] <daveake> pop
[14:33] <Maxell> pop'd?
[14:33] <Mik_WD8MNV> it's not gonna float for a week is it?
[14:34] <Maxell> :P
[14:34] <gbruenetti> there she blows!
[14:34] <Peevester> wow, nice flight
[14:35] <gbruenetti> Is speed = ground speed as per GPS?
[14:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> Luv the predicton its heading for the hills again!
[14:36] <Peevester> think so
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[14:39] <gbruenetti> how long will the descent take? at the moment its pretty fast...
[14:40] <Peevester> wow, the predictions are flailing all over the place
[14:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> It will slow as it comes back into denser air 30mins to an hour
[14:42] <gbruenetti> this project is really cool :-)
[14:43] <NickSF> Are they falling together? I thought the plan was for SPEARS to separate when the igniter went off?
[14:43] <MarkR42> was the rocket supposed to separate spears?
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[14:44] <daveake> no separation this time
[14:45] <gbruenetti> I'd love a picture of a wild eyed A380 pilot at flight level 350 ...
[14:45] <daveake> waiting here tosee how the landing prediction goes
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[14:45] <diodesign> yarr.
[14:47] <MarkR42> Air pressure reported by PIE and SPEARS is dramatically different all the time, I think one of them must be very wrong
[14:47] <gbruenetti> looks like climbing will involve only a fence or two this time
[14:48] <Peevester> one is pascals, the other hectopascals
[14:48] <gbruenetti> do you have barbwire resistant clothes? :-)
[14:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> Diveide SPEARS by 100
[14:48] <Peevester> yep
[14:49] <Peevester> might need a red cape for the south one, looks like a pasture
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[14:52] <Boomsling> can we see live images from pie or spears?
[14:53] <NickSF> Boomsling http://ssdv.habhub.org/PIE
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[14:53] <Boomsling> thanks
[14:54] <gonzo_> those round fields are interesting. Wonder why they have them? Some rotart irrigation system?
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[14:55] <gbruenetti> yep thats because of irrigation
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[14:57] <ed__> adamgreig, making some nice increments to the test rig atm
[14:57] <ed__> getting some firewire 800 machine vision cameras
[14:58] <ed__> they're quite nice. C-mount lenses, global shutters which you can externall trigger (this sync with the dataloggers) and other niceties
[14:58] <ed__> i can types good
[14:58] <adamgreig> you mentioned
[14:58] <adamgreig> good stuff
[14:58] <adamgreig> cameras are definitely the best part of test rigs
[14:59] <ed__> yus
[14:59] <ed__> it's an excuse to play with libCVD
[14:59] <ed__> which is ed rosten's library
[14:59] <ed__> it's quite fun
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[15:00] <Hix> ed__ I got a Sony XC-75CE c-mount m.v camera with 1.10,000 sec shutter bundled withthe Leica
[15:00] <ed__> it has the drivers for almost anything imagine be it usb webcams of MRI scanners or whatever, and turns it into a pointer to an array of pixels
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[15:01] <ed__> oh god my typing
[15:02] <ed__> it has the drivers for almost anything imaginable, be it USB webcams or MRI scanners or whatever, and just provides pointers to an array of pixels
[15:02] <ed__> is what i was trying to say
[15:02] <ed__> so you can dive straight in to cvis algorithms
[15:02] <ed__> plus general helper functions like saving all the frames to various formats
[15:04] <Mik_WD8MNV> can they see it from their position?
[15:04] <ed__> Hix, nice!
[15:05] <ed__> Hix, how much did you pay for all this lot together?
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[15:05] <Hix> £176 ed__
[15:05] <ed__> jesus wept
[15:06] <ed__> what a steal
[15:06] <Hix> :D
[15:06] <Hix> still need a CNC post for mounting it though
[15:06] <ed__> why?
[15:07] <daveake> visual
[15:07] <Mik_WD8MNV> wave for the cam
[15:07] <Hix> ed__ http://i.imgur.com/euSt4vo.jpg without the Sony mounted, but imaging prism viewable. Only issue is yellowed zoom handles, but hey
[15:07] <Hix> need something to mount it on, focus mech is for one of those big lab boom arms
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[15:08] <Hix> ed__ there you go, sony attached http://i.imgur.com/pEE2eGc.jpg
[15:09] <ed__> what a joy
[15:09] <Hix> all the gear - no idea :)
[15:09] <Hix> but for that moneuy I HAD to
[15:09] <Peevester> You'll almost be able to drive to it Dave
[15:09] <craag> mfa298: Load average 19.4 :|
[15:09] <Mik_WD8MNV> should be able to smell it by now
[15:09] <Upu> that has to be doing something wrong :/
[15:10] <mfa298> whats the cpu idle time (vmstat 1)
[15:10] <Upu> how much of that is MySQL ?
[15:10] <Peevester> I wonder if that creekbed has any water in it
[15:10] <craag> Upu: About 40% of one cpu
[15:10] <mfa298> Upu I think the answer is that it's doing lots of things wrong (at least the chat)
[15:10] <craag> The rest is httpd
[15:10] <Upu> uff
[15:11] <Upu> :)
[15:11] <Upu> I think you need to speak to Habhub guys :)
[15:11] <craag> I'm ripping this system out tonight
[15:12] <craag> Even if I can't get the new one up properly
[15:12] <Peevester> looks like you're down about 150 feet from the road
[15:12] <mattbrejza> do you not appriciate people being able to post images and embedded audio? :P
[15:12] <craag> :|
[15:12] <mfa298> I suspect a monkey could have put something better together. even some of my bad code has handled more mysql traffic than this (although probably not opening connections to mysql as much)
[15:12] <mattbrejza> persumably that would allow js too?
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[15:13] <craag> load average now 22 and climbing..
[15:13] <craag> 24
[15:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/LOHAN_TEST_20130919/Landed.jpg
[15:14] <mfa298> I'm guessing CPU idle time is somewhere in the 0-5% range now then
[15:14] <craag> yeah about 5-6
[15:15] <craag> bursts of 2-3
[15:15] <Peevester> looks like either hay or scrub from the pie cam, not going to be a hard walk
[15:15] <iain_G4SGX> Must have landed right in front of them, good driving
[15:16] <mfa298> 395 users in the online list
[15:16] <Hix> ed__ what are you aiming to monitor / capture with the c.v on the rig?
[15:17] <ed__> the engine firings
[15:17] <Hix> as in pulsing?
[15:17] <mfa298> I should have got a script going for the count, Could have had a pretty graph of online users.
[15:17] <ed__> as in pulsing?
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[15:18] <craag> mfa298: I'll get google analytics on it too.
[15:18] <mfa298> hmmm, that could be interesting.
[15:18] <Hix> monitoring the start-up or the actual exhaust pulses?
[15:19] <ed__> the whole thing
[15:19] <Hix> ok
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[15:19] <Hix> I'd imagine some pretty high frame rates
[15:20] <craag> Are they planning another flight at some point (to actually launch the plane?)
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[15:20] <ed__> well it's not proper high speed photography
[15:20] <ed__> it'll be 120fps probably
[15:20] <ed__> just like fast-for-normal video
[15:20] <Peevester> looks like they have it!
[15:21] <ed__> it's more so we can get proper timestamped stills
[15:21] <gbruenetti> :-)
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[15:21] <Peevester> or it grew feet
[15:21] <ed__> as that helps with looking back at the data
[15:21] <gbruenetti> still transmitting :-)
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[15:22] <Peevester> wish they had left the carcam facing north
[15:23] <daveake> recovered :)
[15:23] <Peevester> CHEERS
[15:23] <diodesign> cool :-)
[15:23] <G0TDJ_Steve> Beauty shot on cam please daveake
[15:23] <gbruenetti> that went a lot easier than last time...
[15:23] <Peevester> I'd say, 5 minute recovery
[15:23] <G0TDJ_Steve> YAY! :D
[15:23] <Peevester> *waves*
[15:23] <G0TDJ_Steve> Thank you
[15:24] <Peevester> this stuff is really addictive
[15:24] <daveake> saw it land
[15:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> Peevester: Tell me about it
[15:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> Great stuff Dave
[15:24] <Hix> ed__ gotcha match images to the logger data exactly as it's triggered frames
[15:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> Well done on a great fliht and recovery
[15:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> *flight
[15:24] <Peevester> any word on the igniter test Dave?
[15:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/LOHAN_TEST_20130919/index.php?ind=0
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[15:26] <ed__> Hix, fazackerly. then we can have a nice gui thing that matches the video up with the graphs
[15:27] <G0TDJ_Steve> So daveake Is that end of mission or will there be more?
[15:27] <diodesign> daveake: how did the igniter test go?
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[15:28] <daveake> end of this week's testing
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[15:31] <Hix> ed__ HUD stylee graphical overlays :D
[15:31] <gbruenetti> Are these guys UNIX or DOS (Translation: No news on igniter is good or bad)?
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[15:38] <birilloso> hello :-)
[15:38] <birilloso> i have a question on the optimal design for the balloon
[15:38] <birilloso> in the last launch, the payload box suffered a lot of rotations and oscillations
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[15:38] <Upu> put a spinner between the parachute and the payload
[15:39] <birilloso> is there some strategy to mitigate this movement? some little wings? a weight at the bottom?
[15:39] <Upu> I don't know what they call them
[15:39] <Upu> but they use them in fishing
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[15:40] <SpeedEvil> birilloso: a 100 kg weight on the payload generally fixes movement
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> Upu: swivel
[15:40] <birilloso> is this http://www.maracana.it/img/NENCINI/0/GIRELLE_PESCA7_-_Watt38820.jpg a spinner? :)
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> those, yes
[15:40] <Upu> thats the one
[15:40] <Upu> thx SpeedEvil
[15:41] <birilloso> in italian it's called "girella", but almost nobody knows
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[15:41] <enkidu> yes. it is. anyways it would not work in atmosphere
[15:42] <KT5TK1> Simply mounting the camera on the neck of the balloon makes it surprisingly steady.
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> KT5TK1: good point
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[15:43] <birilloso> ok, so the wings are quite a bad idea
[15:43] <KT5TK1> We have tried that with a GoPro last flight and it was great
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[15:45] <birilloso> KT5TK1: my payload is just camera+battery+tk102
[15:45] <birilloso> if I put camera and additional battery on the neck... there is only the gps in the foam box
[15:45] <Upu> just watch the GPS only tracker
[15:45] <Upu> quickest way to loose your payload
[15:46] <Upu> GSM only
[15:46] <birilloso> Upu: it's a cheap launch... tk-102 35¬, camera 10¬, additional battery 10¬
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[15:47] <birilloso> the first launch (15km) was good, so the payload already did his job
[15:47] <Hix> for a tiny amount more you could make a radio tracker
[15:47] <birilloso> it I lose the payload in the second launch, it's not a big affair
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[15:48] <birilloso> Hix: how much tiny?
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[15:49] <enkidu> actually you could try to make your tracker broadcast its position on VHF
[15:49] <birilloso> enkidu: how much would it cost?
[15:49] <Hix> birilloso you can get uBlox from aliexpress for ~€8 and RFM22B radio modules for ~€10 need a few other compponents and a board, but its not massive cost.
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[15:50] <enkidu> especially you can track your payload even outside you rcountry borders
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> Hix: and a gsm moaule for a tenner
[15:50] <Hix> and after is has lost GSM signal, which is highly likely
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[15:51] <SpeedEvil> Hix: which is a somewhat interesting add on
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[15:51] <tweetBot> @daveake: #UKHAS LOHAN test flight recovered. Saw it land in a field. More later when I've got the images and video off of the #RaspberryPi
[15:51] <Upu> birilloso google habduino or make your own
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2013-New-Arrival-N9-Sound-Activated-Listening-Mini-Voice-Device-GSM-Voice-Alarm-With-USB-Charger/1288662886.html
[15:52] <Hix> SpeedEvil why bother with GSM module? it'd just drive up the cost, i believe he already has from last launch
[15:52] <enkidu> Hix: actually this tracker has serial connector
[15:52] <Hix> heh - genuine apple product there ;p
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[15:52] <enkidu> http://www.stadar.org/content/misc/TK-102
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[15:53] <enkidu> so its just little work to broadcast it with simple serial module
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[15:53] <SpeedEvil> I find it amusing that it uses a standard Sim
[15:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> OM of the last Lohan flight http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/LOHAN_TEST_20130919/lohan_20130919.html
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[15:54] <daveake> cheers Geoff-G8DHE
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[15:54] <SpeedEvil> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-Arrival-Sound-Activated-Listening-Mini-Voice-Device-GSM-Voice-Alarm-With-USB-Charger-GSM-Alarm/1285971703.html
[15:54] <birilloso> enkidu: woooow
[15:54] <birilloso> I looked all around the internet for the tk102 pinout!
[15:54] <birilloso> i wonder if my cloned tk102 has the same pinout :o
[15:55] <Hix> more than likely
[15:55] <Hix> good find enkidu
[15:55] <enkidu> birilloso: you can however use mcu to convert it to proper format and broadcast it then with less annoying modulation than original serial module
[15:56] <enkidu> moreover, inside MCU is probably regular AVR
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[15:58] <birilloso> what is MCU?
[15:58] <enkidu> microcontroller unit
[15:58] <jcoxon> ed__, wb8elk launched a stormhab
[15:59] <ed__> oh cool!!
[15:59] <ed__> pics vids?
[15:59] <ed__> just now?
[15:59] <birilloso> MCU = arduino?
[15:59] <mfa298> only downside to using the tk-102 gps is that it probably won't work over 18km (there's a good reason alsmost everyone here used ublox)
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[16:00] <Laurenceb> what happened to the special projects thingy?
[16:00] <enkidu> sometimes adapting existing project can be a challenge too
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[16:00] <Laurenceb> heh
[16:01] <Laurenceb> we already know what kind of special they mean
[16:01] <Laurenceb> special as in educational needs
[16:02] <enkidu> I think that I can try using some little things to make a tracker, but have to wait for my salary, no funds this month
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[16:04] <enkidu> it will use solars, ublox, mcu with on-chip radio, camera and sd card
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[16:06] <birilloso> so, just to sum up costs: uBlox (gps for arduino) 10¬, RFM22B (radio for arduino) 10¬, arduino 10¬... do I need to buy anything else? Probably a good arduino manual :)
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[16:07] <enkidu> if you really need arduino... there are some nice modules that need only soldering
[16:07] <mattbrejza> recieving radio
[16:07] <enkidu> ^^^
[16:07] <enkidu> or even whole network of receivers
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[16:08] <birilloso> soooo costy
[16:08] <enkidu> we have network of receivers
[16:09] <birilloso> do you know the state of receivers in italy?
[16:09] <enkidu> for you more than enough would be one of these little dvb tuners
[16:09] <Laurenceb> this looks interesting http://www.engineering-design-show.co.uk/
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[16:10] <birilloso> enkidu: i am going to launch just a couple of balloons
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[16:10] <birilloso> it looks like at least 10-20 hours of work would be needed
[16:10] <birilloso> to assemble all these things
[16:11] <mattbrejza> + program
[16:11] <enkidu> not as long as you say
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[16:12] <birilloso> just a question
[16:12] <birilloso> how much power do I need, to get the signal to the earth?
[16:12] <mattbrejza> Laurenceb: http://www.electronics-design-show.co.uk/ too
[16:13] <birilloso> a 3,7V 300mah battery will suffice for 2-3 hours?
[16:13] <enkidu> birilloso: 10mW for transmitter is standard here
[16:13] <Laurenceb> nice
[16:13] <birilloso> °_° so it's fine
[16:13] <Laurenceb> uh oh http://www.electronics-design-show.co.uk/conference/2013/
[16:13] <Laurenceb> rpi
[16:14] <birilloso> thanks enkidu, this night I will study all these things and decide what to do
[16:14] <birilloso> probably I will come back
[16:14] <birilloso> byebye!
[16:14] <adamgreig> Laurenceb: lol I just spotted the rpi too
[16:14] <adamgreig> :|
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[16:15] <Laurenceb> http://www.electronics-design-show.co.uk/electronics-design-show-workshops/meet-the-cortex-m-family/51785
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[16:17] <Laurenceb> http://www.electronics-design-show.co.uk/electronics-design-show-workshops/answering-the-inevitable-question-to-build-or-to-buy/52546
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[16:17] <Laurenceb> hahaha irony meter
[16:18] <Willdude123> Hi people
[16:18] <ed__> labview
[16:18] <ed__> jesus
[16:19] <Laurenceb> http://fplreflib.findlay.co.uk/showfloorplans/engineeringdesignshow/EDS%202013%20-%20Website%20Plan.pdf
[16:19] <Laurenceb> why is by J5 just called "JTAG" ?!
[16:19] <Laurenceb> *bay
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[16:20] <Laurenceb> this conference is so 1337 it has its own debug port
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[16:21] <Will|BF3> My user name is literal, I am actually talking while playing BF3
[16:25] <Laurenceb> wonderful
[16:26] <Laurenceb> now i have to ignore Will*
[16:26] <Will|BF3> Why?
[16:26] <mattbrejza> youre never gonna get top of the stats if you keep changing your nick...
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[16:26] <Laurenceb> i will keep that crown forever
[16:26] <Laurenceb> or not lol
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[16:27] <Laurenceb> looks like eroomde and jcoxon are the biggest ircers
[16:27] <mattbrejza> youre not far off top
[16:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> Has anybody tried these balloons ? http://www.kapshop.com/Lifters-Balloons-&-Blimps/c75_32/p99/Balloon-150/product_info.html
[16:28] <ed__> i doubt i'll be there for long
[16:29] <mattbrejza> 845000 words, thats a lot of keystrokes over the years
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[16:30] <ed__> yep
[16:30] <mattbrejza> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/view.php is still 4th most common link, i remember that system
[16:30] <mfa298> stats might be more interesteing if they were just for the year
[16:30] <mfa298> although I think it still need a s/n ratio value on there as well (shame pisg probably can't do that)
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[16:33] <Laurenceb> thats longer than my thesis :-/
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> what's the link?
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[16:34] <mattbrejza> thats where fldigi used to upload strings to
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[16:37] <SpeedEvil> the stats
[16:38] <mattbrejza> oh
[16:38] <mfa298> http://habhub.org/zeusbot/pisg.html
[16:39] <mfa298> SpeedEvil @ #5 with a lot of typing to get to #4
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[16:40] <Willdude123> Ah man
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[16:40] <Willdude123> I need to talk a lot more to beat mattbrejza
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[16:41] <mattbrejza> well not really, youve been here much less than a lot of those around yo
[16:41] <mattbrejza> u
[16:41] <mattbrejza> (first join)
[16:41] <cuddykid> people seen this http://news.sky.com/story/1143906/alien-bugs-discovered-in-earths-atmosphere ?
[16:41] <cuddykid> though of our very own astro biologist
[16:41] <ed__> also there's no poin talking here just for the sake of talking Willdude123
[16:42] <Willdude123> Of course
[16:42] <Willdude123> Most of what I have to say is useless anyway :)
[16:42] <mattbrejza> could just ban your 123 nick and make you start again from willdude124 :P
[16:43] <ed__> there is that
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[16:43] <Willdude123> Actually do it.
[16:43] <Willdude123> :)
[16:44] <Willdude123> Am I the only person who came here because of the Felix Baumgartner Whoobly-Doo?
[16:44] <Laurenceb> heh im never around in the morning
[16:44] <Laurenceb> cuz i stay up way too late and oversleep
[16:44] <Willdude123> I actually convinced apple online support my name was Al-Bashir and I rule Wadiya
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[16:48] <wb8elk_> We just had our balloon downed by a thunderstorm cell at about 2000 meters up...a few minutes after we launched it in Bunker Hill, Indiana
[16:49] <Mik_WD8MNV> ouch
[16:49] <wb8elk_> 600 gram balloon with Iridium tracker and SPOT along with student experiments
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[16:49] <wb8elk_> A pop-up thunderstorm caught up with the balloon and down it came.
[16:49] <bertrik> have you recovered the payload?
[16:52] <bertrik> sorry to hear that
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[16:55] <wb8elk_> Yes...only had to drive 2 miles to recover it. It was only up for 15 minutes before the storm hit it
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[17:12] <jcoxon> wb8elk_, thats very cool
[17:12] <jcoxon> we've had discussions about a stormhab for a few years
[17:13] <jcoxon> fly above a front then drop sensors down into the storm
[17:14] <Mik_WD8MNV> or launc stuff into a tornado
[17:15] <jcoxon> it would be like a reverse 'dorothy' from twister
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[17:17] <enkidu> :}
[17:17] <enkidu> imagine amount of units needed to really make it
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[17:21] <jcoxon> ping fsphil
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[17:26] <wb8elk_> I proposed just such a system to NOAA years ago...dropped sensors into a storm from above.
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[17:30] <enkidu> dropsondes are being used sometimes
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[17:31] <Mik_WD8MNV> need pico or nano dropsonds
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[17:32] <enkidu> nature of well-formed tornado is already known
[17:34] <fsphil> pong jcoxon
[17:36] <fsphil> wb8elk_: did the balloon burst?
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[18:11] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-Nokia-808-Pureview-808-Pure-view-Camera-4858308-41MP-/271278584693?pt=UK_Replacement_Parts_Tools&hash=item3f2976b375 hmm
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[18:13] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:13] <Lunar_Lander> today I considered something like "where to go from here" in terms of ballooning
[18:14] <Lunar_Lander> we plan to go into electric field measurement and optical ozone detection now
[18:14] <Lunar_Lander> but I thought that it might be good to have a roadmap
[18:14] <Lunar_Lander> to sum up what is thought that could be done in terms of research with our balloons
[18:14] <Lunar_Lander> what do you think?
[18:15] <bertrik> we did some kind of uv (to detect ozone layer) and electric field measurement on habanero2, but are too lazy to process the data :)
[18:16] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I remember that :)
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander> I think any advanced chemistry is just a dream
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander> I think there is no way to make a small 1 kg Mass Spectrometer for instance
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> high voltage, magnetic fields, evacuating the instrument itself
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> that should not be possible
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[18:20] <Lunar_Lander> I just don't want to run into a dead end
[18:21] <Lunar_Lander> I think the right way is not just to look at old papers and reconstruct experiments but to ask questions first and develop from there
[18:22] <bertrik> I've often wondered if the balloons launches are really for science, or just for the nice pictures
[18:22] <Lunar_Lander> yea, I think the ones on TV and in the papers are often "We put some object in front of the cam"
[18:22] <Lunar_Lander> that is what dave and Steve didn't like so much I think
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> or better, that is why Steve decided to make such launches on a contract basis, so that the people wanting pictures don't make an accident with a non-well planned flight
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> bertrik, we decided to start two lines of the project
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> one with the university
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> which will fly more advanced experiments
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> and one that will be funded by ourselves, but will take abord, for example, HAM equipment
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> but I still want these flights to be scientific
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> for example, my prof said, Geiger Counters don't give much new info these days
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> so one of the private flights should look into geiger counters
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> I think
[18:28] <enkidu> Lunar_Lander: TCD detector with zeolite column?
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> a scintillator?
[18:29] <enkidu> maybe. It would be easy
[18:30] <enkidu> electric field measure is also easy - but you will need motor
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> you mean for a field mill?
[18:31] <enkidu> yes
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:32] <darkstar-2001> A GM tube with a lead collimator - so you know where the radiation came from might be a good start. Not sure how far down into the atmosphere x-rays get. The telescope I used was on the mir space station so a little higher! How could you stabilise & point in a particular direction?
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> yea that is one type of detector
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> darkstar-2001, cool!
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> hmm Babs did some pointing I think when he flew his SLR camera
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> I think he used some gyros for attitude information
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> but I am not sure about that
[18:34] <darkstar-2001> Lots of interesting sources (black hole, LMXBs etc). Would need to make a balloon that stays up high for a while.
[18:35] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:35] <darkstar-2001> Now sure what the quantum efficiency of this is: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/imetry-p-1429.html?cPath=25_109
[18:35] <darkstar-2001> but its on my (very...) long list of thing to have a closer look at.
[18:36] <wb8elk_> fsphil....yes, apparently we were caught in the thunderstorm's downdraft. The balloon was cleanly cut about 6 inches above the filler nozzle. Looked like an X-Acto knife had cut through the balloon.
[18:36] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:36] <fsphil> yikes
[18:37] <fsphil> was it a foil balloon?
[18:37] <fsphil> I doubt those things would handle hail too well
[18:37] <wb8elk_> very short flight....the thunderstorm popped up and caught up with the balloon while it was at 6671 feet a few minutes after launch.
[18:37] <wb8elk_> very heavy downpour and probably a downdraft. Knocked it right out of the sky.
[18:38] <wb8elk_> the good news is that they only had to drive 2 miles for the recovery.
[18:38] <wb8elk_> it was a 600 gram latex with a 3 pound payload. Iridium modem tracker, SPOT and student experiments.
[18:39] <fsphil> ah weird
[18:39] <fsphil> wonder if it just got kicked about so much that it ripped
[18:39] <wb8elk_> I thought it was a GPS error at first when I saw it go from 6671 feet to 761 feet in 5 minutes time.
[18:39] <fsphil> or one of the payloads got bounced up and tore it
[18:40] <wb8elk_> probably a lot of turbulence.
[18:40] <fsphil> I'd love to launch a camera into a storm
[18:40] <wb8elk_> that would be a wild video
[18:40] <wb8elk_> Gotta head into work ... I'll have to try the camera into the storm.
[18:41] <fsphil> good luck :D
[18:41] <wb8elk_> bye for now
[18:42] <Willdude123> My mind went completely blank when emailling my french exchange.
[18:43] <Willdude123> I almost sent him an email saying I'm horny about him coming to England
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> hello wb8elk_
[18:48] <Lunar_Lander> nice to hear you again
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[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> hi mic
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> mclane,
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> darkstar-20011, interesting idea, once again
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[18:55] <mclane> Hi Lunar_Lander
[18:55] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, we were just discussing how to get more physics into ballooning
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[18:56] <mclane> what kind of physics are you thinking of?
[18:56] <M6PFX-mobile> evening
[18:57] <mclane> we have already flown a geiger counter and a UV photometer
[18:58] <mclane> what about your electrometer?
[18:58] <darkstar-20011> Lunar_Lander: ideas are easy......
[19:00] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, yeah still working on it
[19:00] <Lunar_Lander> darkstar-20011, yeah definately
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[19:04] <darkstar-20011> Earlier you were talking about not being able to get a mass spec that light - well, what about a sample & return? Take a sample(s) of gas and bring them back for analysis.
[19:04] <Lunar_Lander> yeah that could work
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[19:05] <adamgreig> cooler if you do it in the air
[19:06] <adamgreig> bet you could do a mass spec in 1kg
[19:06] <adamgreig> get on it
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:06] <mclane> someone tried to measure ozone?
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[19:07] <darkstar-20011> Don't you just need a really good microscope and see what atoms are in each molecule? :)b
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[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, yeah working on that :)
[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> darkstar-20011, XD yea
[19:11] <mclane> what sensor will you use Lunar_lander?
[19:11] <mclane> I read that the met offices use some electrochemical cell with pumps and stuff
[19:11] <mclane> I dont like that
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> planning on some differential light intensity measurement
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> observing sunlight in a UV and a blue wavelenghth
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> then you only need the intensity ratio
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[19:16] <bertrik> Lunar_Lander: yeah, I think that's a good way to go, do relative/ratio measurements
[19:17] <mclane> but then you measure the integral ozone absorption of the atmosphere down to your ballon payload
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> but that is what was done in the 60s too
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> brb
[19:20] <mclane> so you think of some kind of Dobso spectrophotometer?
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[19:23] <mclane> thats beyond my capabilities
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> beamsplitter and stuff
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> have to talk to the optics guys
[19:24] <mclane> and you have to track the sun
[19:25] <mclane> and you need uv optics - expensive
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> as I said, talk to prof and optics guys
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> need some sort of heliostat
[19:28] <mclane> I have done that during my PhD 30 years ago
[19:28] <mclane> but in the infrared
[19:28] <mclane> (11 micron)
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> btw never knew you are a Dr
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:30] <mclane> yea, that was fun
[19:30] <mclane> we build a heliostat and a high resolution ir spectrometer
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[19:31] <ibanezmatt13> abend
[19:31] <mclane> very high resolution
[19:31] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[19:32] <mclane> so we could resolve the uv absorption lines completely
[19:32] <darkstar-20011> What sort of 'targets' were you looking at?
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[19:33] <mclane> the sun
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> Is 'twinkle' reduced significantly at 30km?
[19:33] <darkstar-20011> ahh. Just the sun - not other stars.
[19:33] <mclane> - with the heliostat
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> In principle photometry might be interesting
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> Crappler.
[19:33] <mclane> otherwise we lokked to Mars, Venus and some very bright IR souces
[19:34] <mclane> (e.g. red stars and stars with a thick dust cloud)
[19:34] <mclane> but this with big telescopes
[19:35] <darkstar-20011> I looked at the other end of the spectrum - soft x-rays.
[19:35] <mclane> (ok, big for the standards 30 years ago where the largest usable telescope was the 5m Mount Palomar)
[19:36] <mclane> I spend some weeks in Hawaii on the 3m NASA IRTF at that time
[19:36] <darkstar-20011> 'my' telescope was 256mm across!
[19:36] <mclane> Wolter telescope?
[19:36] <darkstar-20011> I spent mine in birmingham and thankfully avoided the beetroot soup in Moscow.
[19:37] <darkstar-20011> One called TTM on the mir spacestation.
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[19:38] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening All :-)
[19:38] ajm-b (~ajm_b@94.13.57.198) joined #highaltitude.
[19:38] <mclane> bye guys
[19:39] <darkstar-20011> bye
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[19:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> Anyone likes electronic music? This piece is from one of greatest polish composers: http://youtu.be/G7yWWIvI4NQ
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[19:46] <DL7AD> good evening
[19:46] <Willdude123> Evening DL7AD
[19:46] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening D:7AD
[19:46] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening DL7AD
[19:47] <DL7AD> :)
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[19:53] <DL1SGP> good evening Sven and everyone else :)
[19:59] <Rebounder> good evening
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[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> darkstar-20011, thanks again for the suggestions
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> hej Rebounder
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> first of all, I want to get my new mainboard, Stormdrifter II, up and running
[20:13] <darkstar-20011> Lunar_Lander: No probs. I should do some back of the env calc to see how feasible it would be.......
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> one word on MS
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> I thought maybe only time of flight MS is possible
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> also one would need to calibrate it I think
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> or at least througroughly calculate everything
[20:14] <craag> Does anoyne know when elReg are planning their next flight?
[20:14] <craag> anyone even
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> hi craag
[20:15] <craag> Evening Lunar_Lander
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[20:17] <craag> Not too bad, currently trying to knock batc.tv's chat system into shape.
[20:18] <craag> So we can have a load average of a bit less than 24 during the elreg launches.
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> sounds good
[20:18] <craag> how about you?
[20:22] <f5vnf> I could sit here and read this feed all night , as well as all day, thanks , but must go
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[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> craag, I am ok, thanks
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> lot of work to do if you read the backscroll
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[20:29] <enkidu> SP9UOB-Tom: co tam na sznurku puszczasz?
[20:29] <eroomde> wvwning
[20:30] <craag> Lunar_Lander: Oh yeah, sounds cool!
[20:31] <eroomde> attending a very interesting talk about the Cern Open Hardware license
[20:31] <arko> eroomde: i get the feeling im suppose to be sleepy yet im not
[20:31] <arko> heh
[20:31] <eroomde> and open hardware at CERN
[20:31] <arko> CERN?
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:31] <arko> like cern cern?
[20:31] <eroomde> yes
[20:31] <arko> weird
[20:31] <eroomde> one of their hardware engineers
[20:32] <arko> are the OSing cern?
[20:32] <arko> "if you have a few billion sitting around...
[20:32] <eroomde> most of their stuff is open hardware
[20:32] <eroomde> all the adcs, the protocol they've built onto of ethernet that gives ins precision, all sorts
[20:32] <arko> oh wow
[20:32] <arko> aewsome
[20:32] <eroomde> ns*
[20:32] <eroomde> <1ns infact
[20:32] <eroomde> called White Rabbit
[20:32] <eroomde> everything is online. gerbers and all
[20:32] <eroomde> it's all doable by us
[20:33] <eroomde> analog adcs, xilinx fpgas etc
[20:33] <eroomde> nothing too exotic
[20:33] <arko> woah epic
[20:33] <arko> i'd love to see the CERN github
[20:33] <enkidu> DIY LHC
[20:33] <arko> no big deal
[20:34] <arko> i bet those adc designs are really nice
[20:34] <arko> wonder what trickery they did
[20:34] <arko> curious to see the pcb layout too
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[20:34] <eroomde> i am gonna poke
[20:35] <eroomde> just they provided a couple of piolypins of very nice ale at the talk so now is not the time
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[20:35] <eroomde> also they have just contributed nudge-rerouting to kicad
[20:35] <arko> learn github though fox news!
[20:35] <arko> http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/k2vJNNAQZlg/hqdefault.jpg
[20:35] <eroomde> i.e. the tracks move out the way to make way for the track you're dragging
[20:35] <arko> oh cool
[20:36] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHDAHpR5Ls
[20:37] <Laurenceb__> github floatation
[20:37] <Laurenceb__> ooh
[20:37] <arko> oh thats neat
[20:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> enkidu: http://www.kosmonauta.net/pl/badania-rozwoj/menu-artykuly-badania-rozwoj/misje/5840-2013-09-19-gliwice_28-09.html
[20:38] <eroomde> https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg11235.html
[20:38] <eroomde> so yes, CERN si super busxy
[20:38] <eroomde> in the open hardware scheme
[20:38] <eroomde> i guess their open software stuff goes without saying
[20:38] <fsphil> they use kikad for their hardware? neat
[20:38] <fsphil> cad*
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> push and shove router
[20:39] <adamgreig> a fair while back cern published a great thing on kicad
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> wut
[20:39] <adamgreig> basically they were like "we need better hardware design tools"
[20:39] <adamgreig> reviewed all of them
[20:39] <adamgreig> concluded that they were all lacking but kicad was the best of a bad bunch
[20:39] <adamgreig> and committed to implementing a huge list of excellent features
[20:39] <eroomde> this is one
[20:39] <eroomde> might have pushed me over the edge
[20:39] <enkidu> SP9UOB-Tom: przewidywane trajektorie macie?
[20:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> enkidu: its to early for accurate predictions
[20:40] <enkidu> k
[20:40] <adamgreig> kicad has been better than eagle for years :P
[20:41] <eroomde> if only cern would do cad
[20:41] <eroomde> we just caved and bought solidworks
[20:41] <adamgreig> http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackages
[20:41] <fsphil> eagle still has more library parts
[20:41] <adamgreig> check out their feature list
[20:41] <arko> eroomde: i "bought" it tooo
[20:41] <Laurenceb__> omg that videos is hawt
[20:41] <eroomde> yeah
[20:42] <arko> long live solidworks
[20:42] <adamgreig> fsphil: but so what, I stopped trusting most eagle library parts a long time ago
[20:42] <arko> down with inventor
[20:42] <fsphil> adamgreig: fair point
[20:42] <adamgreig> making your own parts is much easier in kicad than eagle
[20:42] <arko> I miss the rains down in England
[20:42] Nick change: arko -> toto
[20:42] <fsphil> it's raining here atm, and it's cold
[20:42] <toto> I miss the rains down in England
[20:42] <enkidu> SP9UOB-Tom: if somehow payload lands near my position, I would help. Anyways, Ill be away from PC - all the tracking may be only automatic
[20:42] Nick change: toto -> arko
[20:42] <arko> fsphil: its hot here :(
[20:43] <SP9UOB-Tom> enkidu: Thanks a lot. But where is your location :) ?
[20:43] <enkidu> Gdansk
[20:44] <enkidu> dont know, if winds will take it here
[20:44] <Laurenceb__> "Parts of the core routing algorithm were written in Visual Basic (using, of course, the Comic Sans font"
[20:44] <Laurenceb__> big lulz
[20:44] <Laurenceb__> "and the router interactive operations use ActiveX controls" trolling surely
[20:44] <SP9UOB-Tom> enkidu: im affraid its too far. But this saturday i'll be launching PICO and some other crazy exprinents from Funka near Chojnice
[20:44] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzro0Jc70xI
[20:45] <eroomde> wonderful
[20:45] <enkidu> OK. launch time?
[20:45] <adamgreig> kind of lovely
[20:45] <adamgreig> not sure how I feel about p&s tho
[20:45] <adamgreig> I like telling my traces where to go
[20:45] <adamgreig> same reasons I don't like autorouters
[20:45] <adamgreig> but I think in practice it works very well so it's ok
[20:45] <arko> anyone here know when batc.tv is going to post ed's workshop?
[20:46] <adamgreig> stuff like breaking out an fpga feels like it should be done for me tbh, every possible fanout looks awful :P
[20:46] <adamgreig> at least mirror and rotational symmetry would be prettier
[20:46] <adamgreig> all the layers
[20:46] <arko> i rip up fpga's so much
[20:46] <arko> i move the layout of other chips around
[20:46] <SP9UOB-Tom> enkidu: at 12:00 local time. Anyway if You wish to join us at the launch site, and meet some guys from Copernicus Project - You are welcome
[20:46] <arko> then redo the ucf for the fpga so the traces work out better
[20:47] <adamgreig> more and more people seem to be realising that using eagle is a poor choice and pickign up kicad
[20:47] <arko> then run the traces again
[20:47] <adamgreig> I'm seeing way more tutorials and videos and other projects using it than three or four years ago
[20:47] <arko> eagle is fine once you learn the qurkes
[20:47] Action: adamgreig is a cool early adopter
[20:47] <arko> lol
[20:47] <arko> Altium or GTFO
[20:47] <adamgreig> eagle is still a poor choice, especially after you learn the quirks
[20:47] <arko> lol
[20:47] <adamgreig> I had an eagle pro license via cusf in like, '09
[20:47] <adamgreig> doesn't change things
[20:47] <arko> heh
[20:47] <arko> "pro lic"
[20:48] <adamgreig> it's especially useless if you actually want to release your files or let anyone else use them
[20:48] <arko> true
[20:48] <adamgreig> open source code works because code is text files
[20:48] <adamgreig> open source hardware developed in closed source or limited software is like
[20:48] <adamgreig> it's stupid
[20:48] <adamgreig> "you can look but you can't actually do anything useful with this"
[20:48] <adamgreig> "here are some gerbers"
[20:48] <arko> :/ not open source
[20:48] <adamgreig> learning from schematics is nice and all
[20:48] <adamgreig> but exactly
[20:48] <arko> in the traditional sense
[20:48] <adamgreig> the whole open hardware movement is only really getting started now
[20:48] <adamgreig> good that cern wrote a license
[20:48] <arko> yeah
[20:49] <arko> heh
[20:49] <adamgreig> before it was a mess of people trying to put GPL on things, or using CC
[20:49] <adamgreig> CC probably still the best choice
[20:49] <arko> just like MIT did a while back
[20:49] <arko> i love the MIT lic
[20:49] <adamgreig> obviously it's harder - you can't really have 'libraries' in the same sense
[20:49] <Maxell> CC wins
[20:49] <eroomde> he did address why he though cc wax
[20:49] <adamgreig> but still
[20:49] <eroomde> cc was crap*
[20:49] <arko> whats CC?
[20:49] <arko> ohh
[20:49] <arko> commons
[20:49] <eroomde> and why he preferred this
[20:49] <adamgreig> crap or crap for osh?
[20:49] <arko> creattive commons
[20:49] <eroomde> crap for osh
[20:49] <adamgreig> the cern license is an improvement I think, but in practice I thought it was kind of lacking too
[20:49] <adamgreig> or at least badly worded and poorly adopted
[20:49] <eroomde> and also the slight differences with tapr
[20:50] <eroomde> mostly to do with patent licensee rights
[20:50] <adamgreig> yea
[20:50] <adamgreig> the patent thing is a huge confusing mess
[20:50] <adamgreig> and I guess even more relevant for osh
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[20:54] <adamgreig> though to be honest I'm still pretty bad at actually releasing hardware stuff open source
[20:54] <adamgreig> needs to be clearer imo
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> Open hardware is in general a mess.
[20:57] <adamgreig> mmhmm
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt - standard rant on the topic
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> ^my
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[20:59] <adamgreig> yea
[20:59] <adamgreig> hardware is tricky basically
[20:59] <adamgreig> and modularisation, which works so well in software, fails badly in hardware
[21:00] <adamgreig> or at least it fails badly if you want compact or high performance hardware
[21:00] <adamgreig> works a treat for arduinos and shields ;)
[21:00] <adamgreig> I guess in theory you can have high speed interlinks and lvds and so forth
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[21:00] <adamgreig> and a lot of people are starting to make cool looking modular hardware
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[21:01] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - modularisation is the sort-of-counterargument to the above - but it doesn't work in many regimens.
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> Good luck in making a modular phone.
[21:01] <adamgreig> did you see that really silly modularised smartphone concept someone posted recently?
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> - that's not a quarter of the reliability, twice the weight and volume, ...
[21:01] <adamgreig> phonebloks
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> Three times the cost.
[21:01] <adamgreig> http://phonebloks.com/
[21:01] <adamgreig> try to not laugh
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> I saw it.
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> Lol - in a depressing way
[21:02] <ibanezmatt13> Anyone know where I can get a Hakko fx 888 in the UK? They all seem to be dodgy ones from China :/
[21:02] <adamgreig> smartphones are absolutely tiny and replaced maybe every two years
[21:02] <adamgreig> I really don't think they are a significant contribution to landfill waste
[21:02] <adamgreig> energy usage maybe
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> Smartphones may well have negative energy usage.
[21:03] <adamgreig> that modular one wouldn't
[21:03] <adamgreig> my god
[21:03] <adamgreig> I mean in theory it would be nice? but...
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> If you don't get up off the sofa/out of bed/... to do somthing on your 'big' computer/TV/...
[21:03] <fsphil> isn't hakko a chinese brand?
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> Then the cellphone can easily work out at -200W or so
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> Cellphones and recent montors and tablets are very much the counterpoint to the doom-sayers that claim that energy use has to always go up.
[21:04] <adamgreig> also their commercial strategy appears to be "get lots of people on the internet to ask companies to make this phone"
[21:05] <adamgreig> mm, good point on the energy front. though if you replace your phone every two years and your TV every ten, I'm not so sure?
[21:05] <Mik_WD8MNV> maybe adafruit ships to UK?
[21:05] <adamgreig> ibanezmatt13: just get the dodgy one from china, should be fine
[21:05] <SpeedEvil> Thre was an xkcd on that - that I've forgotten enough details of to be able to search.
[21:05] <adamgreig> :P
[21:05] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[21:05] <Mik_WD8MNV> my 936 clone works fine
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> 'and hope that nobody notices that nothing you've describes involves you actually doing anything'
[21:06] <adamgreig> unless someone comes up with a truly fantastic data and power transport
[21:06] <adamgreig> that's entirely universal and super fast and efficient
[21:06] <adamgreig> then I would be all for neat modular hardware :P
[21:07] <bertrik> is there an approximate time for tomorrow's launch?
[21:07] <adamgreig> some kind of wireless cloud of power and data transport that doesn't involve physical connections (or physics)
[21:07] <adamgreig> SpeedEvil: that too. except making youtube videos of course
[21:08] <cuddykid> bertrik: hoping to get it off around 12/12:30ish :)
[21:08] <bertrik> thanks
[21:08] <bertrik> UTC?
[21:09] <cuddykid> around 11/11:30 UTC
[21:09] <bertrik> ok, looking forward to tracking it :)
[21:10] <cuddykid> thanks in advance :) need all the help I can get tomorrow with 3 radios on it!
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[21:24] <cuddykid> quite scary seeing the interest in sentintospace.com - so many people going 'how do I buy?' etc
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[21:28] <WillTablet> Hmm School's Patronal Feast day tomorrow. Looking into who the guy that our school is named after did.
[21:28] <Upu> sod all detail on what their kit offers though
[21:29] <WillTablet> Hi Upu, how are you?
[21:29] <Upu> fine Will thanks
[21:29] <WillTablet> Awesome.
[21:30] <WillTablet> What you been doing since you're off work?
[21:30] <cuddykid> Upu: do we know who the people behind it are?
[21:31] <cuddykid> don't recall seeing any of their launches on spacenear
[21:31] <Upu> no
[21:31] <Upu> They use the predictor
[21:31] <Upu> as its in some of their screen shots
[21:32] <cuddykid> ah
[21:32] <Upu> but no
[21:32] <Upu> not seen any launches
[21:32] <Upu> from Sheffield
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[21:33] <Upu> we don't do launches up North due to the NOTAM restrictions
[21:34] <WillTablet> Yup. The guy just hid in a hole for a few years, and preached to people about Catholicism.
[21:34] <craag> My yorkshire launch doesn't look likely to be approved.
[21:34] <Upu> well we've had a few notams approved
[21:34] <craag> 1/2 a mile from an airfield :/
[21:34] <Upu> one only 6 miles from LBA
[21:34] <Upu> but restrictions are it must go North
[21:35] <Upu> which the winds rarely do
[21:35] <enkidu> craag: sometimes you can get approval for launching on airfield itself just after plane launch
[21:35] <DL1SGP> Good Evening Upu, I hope you are still recovering well :)
[21:36] <Upu> Thanks DL1SGP doing ok
[21:36] <Upu> just bored
[21:36] <Upu> Daytime TV sucks
[21:36] <DL1SGP> I can imagine that...
[21:36] <craag> enkidu: I'm putting it in anyway, we'll see what the CAA say.
[21:36] <enkidu> Upu: s/Daytime//
[21:36] <Upu> yeah that
[21:36] <WillTablet> Upu, record night time tv then :-)
[21:36] <WillTablet> Or use iplayer
[21:36] <Upu> I am doing :)
[21:37] <WillTablet> Or ITV player
[21:37] <WillTablet> Or 4oD
[21:37] <WillTablet> Or Demand 5
[21:37] <enkidu> craag: I'll apply for launch from navigation tower (not flight conrol one, but navpoint nearby)
[21:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=732479656777799&set=pb.100000473142757.-2207520000.1379626611.&type=3&theater
[21:37] <jcoxon> craag, we regularly launch 1mile from an airbase
[21:37] <jcoxon> its actually easier as you can coordinate with them
[21:38] <WillTablet> Upu i'm actually slightly excited about receiving the PCBs although they won't arrive for around 1 month
[21:38] <enkidu> SP9UOB-Tom: no battery or antenna attached :P
[21:38] <Upu> yeah we have to call LBA Tower on ours
[21:38] <WillTablet> Upu you could play BF3?
[21:38] <Upu> WillTablet ~ 9 days from when you get the tracking
[21:38] <Upu> no WillTablet
[21:38] <Upu> eyes moving round = bad
[21:38] <Upu> also BF3 dries my eyes out at the best of times
[21:38] <WillTablet> Oh was it eye surgery?
[21:38] <Upu> yes
[21:39] <WillTablet> Oh OK.
[21:39] <Upu> talking of which night all
[21:39] <WillTablet> I'm useless at it
[21:39] <WillTablet> The stinge is awesome.
[21:40] <WillTablet> OK night Upu
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> evening Upu
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[21:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> night all
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[21:41] <enkidu> nighty
[21:41] <WillTablet> Ooh I have a half day tomorrow, looking forward to only half a day of heterosexist people yelling Hah! Gay at everything they see
[21:43] <craag> jcoxon: I was hoping it would be easy just to co-ordinate with the tower, thanks.
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[21:47] <enkidu> ffs stupid chrome
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[22:18] <tweetBot> @daveake: Launch of second LOHAN test flight of the week, carrying a #RaspberryPi to 38,381 metres #UKHAS http://t.co/2tu4Urk3Rj
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[22:23] <WillTablet> Wondering if I should get an ssd
[22:23] <adamgreig> they're pretty great
[22:24] <WillTablet> Hmm
[22:24] <Laurenceb__> ifailometer
[22:24] <Laurenceb__> http://www.akamai.com/html/technology/dataviz1.html
[22:24] <WillTablet> The alternative is to get a second hand gpu.
[22:26] <tweetBot> @daveake: Image from today's flight, taken by a #RaspberryPi camera through a wide-angle lens http://t.co/sMoNOvD2mM #UKHAS
[22:26] <mfa298> depends vastly on what you're doing and whats the bottle neck
[22:27] <WillTablet> I don't suppose I could clone the partition windows boots from to an ssd and then boot from the ssd somehow
[22:29] <mfa298> if you get an ssd as a retail pack you'll probably get software with it to clone your system drive. but you'll probably need an ssd with enough space for your windows and program files folders at least + space for them to grow + 20%
[22:29] <WillTablet> Wait I thought program files were stored on the main partition
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[22:29] <mfa298> if you go down the ssd route you're probably better off re-installing windows and then install most of your apps to the secondary drive
[22:30] <WillTablet> I could just use it for a bit of extra storage
[22:30] <adamgreig> kinda pointless
[22:30] <adamgreig> ssd is by far best if you have your OS and program files on it
[22:30] <mfa298> normally windows is installed on the same partition as all your software
[22:30] <adamgreig> for most use cases
[22:30] <adamgreig> using it for storage is probably going to net you way less benefit
[22:31] <adamgreig> except like video rendering
[22:31] <mfa298> unless you're doing lots of work on huge datafiles which need fast speeds (i.e. professional video editing) an ssd is overkill for storage
[22:31] <WillTablet> Oh, I have a system reserved partition and the c drive
[22:31] <WillTablet> Well, it just takes ages to come out of hibernation
[22:32] <mfa298> system reserved is or things like EFI book and will be around 100MB.
[22:32] <WillTablet> Not dodgy at all http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=360731765088
[22:32] <Lunar_Lander> night!
[22:32] <WillTablet> Right
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[22:32] <mfa298> it may also be acting to move your main partition to be suitably aligned to give best performance from the drive
[22:33] <WillTablet> My drive is a bit rubbish
[22:33] <WillTablet> I went for the cheapest
[22:33] <mfa298> hibernation will have a large file (the same size as your ram) so having that on an ssd may speed thing up.
[22:34] <mfa298> or just shutdown rather than hibernate the system
[22:34] <WillTablet> But I don't want to move the whole system over. Anyway, I don't really need to upgrade my pc anyway
[22:34] <WillTablet> I just need something to do
[22:35] <mfa298> for most of what you're doing the mechanical disk you've got won't make a huge difference.
[22:35] <mfa298> and if you've got the main drive split into two (system and data) that will improve things a lot.
[22:35] <WillTablet> I have a half day tomorrow. Most people are doing stuff like going to McDonalds or going to the cinema with their friends, but I'll be playing BF3 with Germans, like I do every day. I just need something to do
[22:36] <mfa298> the killer for drive performance tends to be random seek times, two partitions will will reduce that significantly for startup, having a higher rpm drive will help slightly.
[22:36] <adamgreig> WillTablet: given as hardware hobbies seem difficult due to parents/money, maybe try software?
[22:37] <WillTablet> Too head-bashingly complicated
[22:37] <adamgreig> install linux, that'l give you something to do of an afternoon ;)
[22:37] <adamgreig> it doesn't have to be! try python and pygame and write a quick 3d game. it's so satisfying and surprisingly easy (promise)
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[22:37] <adamgreig> when I was about your age or thereabouts I had DarkBasic which was a BASIC for writing DX games and it was great fun (even if in retrospect it was a terrible language and my games were laughable)
[22:38] <adamgreig> it doesn't help that modern commercial games are so many orders of magnitude beyond what anyone could make by themselves any more I guess
[22:38] <mfa298> or install a webserver and write some webpages from scratch and have a play with php (/me shudders)
[22:38] <adamgreig> oh god don't even joke about that
[22:38] <adamgreig> install a webserver and make webapps but use python or ruby
[22:38] <adamgreig> it's honestly just as easy or even easier
[22:38] <adamgreig> python and ruby frameworks (django or rails) both come with web servers
[22:38] <adamgreig> do you can just.. run your program and open your browser
[22:38] <adamgreig> avoid php
[22:39] <craag> far too many php devs in the world anyway
[22:39] <adamgreig> but wrt games, lots of invidivuals are making really cool fun games by having a novel concept, without having to have a million dollars to pay artists and modellers and programmers etc
[22:39] <adamgreig> craag: >0
[22:39] <fsphil> php ain't too bad
[22:39] <craag> yep that!
[22:39] <adamgreig> couple of kickstarter projects I backed are one-man video games that I'm really excited about
[22:39] <adamgreig> fsphil: php is so bad
[22:39] <mfa298> the one advantage of php is there is a lot of example code out there (even if half of it is crap)
[22:39] <WillTablet> But what do I do with it once I have some web app?
[22:39] <adamgreig> mfa298: half?!
[22:40] <fsphil> it's not great, but it's not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be :)
[22:40] <adamgreig> maybe 95% of it is terrible
[22:40] <adamgreig> like, gaping security issues or O(N³) terrible
[22:40] <adamgreig> I like http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ about PHP
[22:40] <adamgreig> "a fractal of bad design" sums it up neatly
[22:40] <mfa298> almost all of the issues with php are down to the people that write it. The same can apply to any language.
[22:41] <WillTablet> Most people say the solution to me not having any friends is to get a gf/bf but I think python web apps are where it's at :-)
[22:41] <mfa298> write it as in write scripts using php
[22:42] <adamgreig> mfa298: that is only true if you interpret "it" as "the language"
[22:42] <adamgreig> so many of its issues are terrible design flaws, poor design choices, inconsistencies, etc
[22:42] <adamgreig> the only thing I will say in its support is that their documentation is excellent
[22:42] <adamgreig> but only because you can go php.net/array to see help on the array function, with examples and explanation and usually informative comments
[22:43] <adamgreig> unfortunately that same page will explain how PHP does arrays, which still makes me cry inside
[22:43] <adamgreig> WillTablet: I'm not sure that getting a partner is a good way to solve not having friends!
[22:44] <WillTablet> Nor do I. Also impossible.
[22:44] <adamgreig> if anything I would try getting friends first
[22:44] <adamgreig> but apparently basingstoke is the dumps?
[22:44] <mfa298> reading the start of that blog, the first set of his compaints are pretty outdated.
[22:44] <WillTablet> Is u dissin bstoke?
[22:44] <WillTablet> Is u dissin bstoke mate?
[22:45] <adamgreig> yes
[22:45] <adamgreig> the only interaction I have with basingstoke is that it's the end of my train line to london
[22:45] <adamgreig> mfa298: maybe just read the analogy
[22:45] <WillTablet> Have you never been here?
[22:45] <WillTablet> It's awesome.
[22:45] <mfa298> mysql_ functions date back to at least version 3 (possibly earlier) and have been replaced at least twice since then
[22:45] <WillTablet> The reason I have no friends is because I'm me
[22:45] <WillTablet> Nothing to do with area.
[22:46] <Laurenceb__> WillTablet: there is an internet legend from Bstoke
[22:46] <Laurenceb__> the world famous Tom66
[22:46] <WillTablet> Ah
[22:46] <Laurenceb__> you should meet him, he is an legend
[22:47] <Laurenceb__> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=324057
[22:47] <Laurenceb__> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1290963&page=129
[22:48] <Laurenceb__> timecop = president of GNAA
[22:48] <WillTablet> Is he a student or a student if you get what I mean?
[22:49] <Laurenceb__> the possibility exists that the entire this is a massive troll by timecop
[22:49] <Laurenceb__> *thing
[22:49] <craag> mfa298: And yet are still used today :P
[22:49] <WillTablet> What as in a sockpuppet?
[22:49] <WillTablet> Oh yh, I can't meet other people
[22:50] <WillTablet> They are probably paedophiles, as my parents would say
[22:50] <adamgreig> craag: not lease because there are a billion pieces of dire example code on the internet using them that everyone copies
[22:50] <WillTablet> Which is ironic, given they send me to a Catholic school
[22:50] <adamgreig> WillTablet: aren't you a bit old for pædophiles? the word changes when it's teenagers
[22:50] <WillTablet> Idk
[22:51] <adamgreig> though lol catholic schools
[22:51] <enkidu> adamgreig: every parents now are treating their children as little kids
[22:51] <adamgreig> mine was great. we had to have supervised showers age <11, i.e. when we didn't need them, but showers stopped age >11, i.e. when we started to actually sweat
[22:51] <craag> adamgreig: Absolutely. I was just surprised to find mysql_ in the batc chat code earlier today..
[22:51] <adamgreig> were you really surprised though?
[22:51] <adamgreig> I think as soon as I open a PHP file I'm already bracing myself for it
[22:51] <enkidu> my friend is 25 and she was at work when her dad phoned her "there is paedophile around, watch yourself"
[22:52] <craag> well it was written by a guy who owns 50% of an ISP
[22:52] <adamgreig> which ISP?
[22:52] <WillTablet> If I ever have to organize a wedding or funeral in the Catholic Church, Only the Good Die Young would be my song choice?
[22:52] <adamgreig> please don't say AAISP :P
[22:52] <WillTablet> *.
[22:52] <adamgreig> or just confirm it's not, because I was about to swap to them
[22:52] <craag> It's a small one, I'd never heard of it, but I'm not going to say.
[22:52] <adamgreig> that's fine
[22:52] <adamgreig> so long as it's not one I'm likely to be using :P
[22:52] <craag> No not tem
[22:52] <craag> *them
[22:53] <craag> I'd just assume he knows about about scaling and security... it seems not.
[22:53] <craag> *a bit about
[22:53] <adamgreig> lol
[22:53] <adamgreig> people will always surprise you huh
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[22:55] <mfa298> I'm not sure if the worst code (php or otherwise) I've seen comes from students or researchers.
[22:55] <mfa298> im ignoring that piece of perl code in this instance.
[22:55] <adamgreig> hmm
[22:55] <adamgreig> toss up
[22:55] <adamgreig> I find students generally just can't write code at all, whereas researchers have had to write code but never been taught or learnt
[22:56] <adamgreig> so they have large messy complicated software doing specialist mathsy things that no one else can understand anyway
[22:56] <adamgreig> which is a unique hell?
[22:56] <fsphil> research students
[22:56] <adamgreig> D: D: D:
[22:57] <fsphil> it's painful reading code written by someone who may know a lot about what the code does, but not the language or programming in general
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[22:59] <adamgreig> hmm
[22:59] <adamgreig> but having been through one engineering course's attempt to teach programming
[22:59] <adamgreig> you can see why
[22:59] <adamgreig> I don't understand who came up with that course or thought it could possibly be a good idea
[22:59] <fsphil> yea, I've not seen that side of it
[22:59] <adamgreig> I suspect like most things, it was originally several people and several courses and over the years more and more people have tampered with it to leave their mark
[23:00] <adamgreig> and that kind of thing apparently only evolves to worse
[23:00] <adamgreig> because it was seriously dire. either you knew programming, learnt nothing, had no opportunity to learn anything new, and either got a month of lie-ins while your friends hated you
[23:00] <adamgreig> (or you had to turn up and sit in sulken boredom because your marker was a sadist)
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[23:00] <adamgreig> or you didn't already know programming and had to start by calculating pi from a monte carlo method in C++ in two hours
[23:01] <adamgreig> and ended up sitting waiting for the single demonstrator to write your code for you before moving on to the next person, also learning nothing in the process
[23:03] <adamgreig> wow, that's a lot of rant
[23:03] <adamgreig> I should probably just filter "PHP" out from my IRC
[23:03] <adamgreig> I have strong feelings about programming and teaching programming, I guess :P
[23:04] <fsphil> I should make a Python Hypertext Processor
[23:05] <enkidu> you can use it actually
[23:05] <enkidu> in cgi mode
[23:05] <craag> I think I set that up once
[23:05] <adamgreig> fsphil: that would be excellent
[23:05] <adamgreig> python as a web language is amazing, cgi mode is awful for anything
[23:05] <adamgreig> fcgi is acceptable but with any modern server wsgi is a much much better choice
[23:06] <craag> Have become a fan of nodejs recently for reasons I can't describe.
[23:06] <adamgreig> nodejs seems cool!
[23:06] <adamgreig> I want to play with it more, only done like hello world
[23:06] <adamgreig> really though I want to play with something properly functional next
[23:06] <craag> As a daemon web backend it works really quite well, managing it's own cache and talking to a stats daemon, I like it.
[23:07] <enkidu> cmon... js on server side?
[23:07] <craag> yes
[23:07] <enkidu> worse would be only client-side PHP
[23:08] <adamgreig> ahaha
[23:08] <adamgreig> yes
[23:08] <adamgreig> php.js
[23:08] <adamgreig> I hope someone has made that already!
[23:08] <adamgreig> <script language="php"><?php echo "hi"; ?></script>
[23:08] <adamgreig> and then it can compile it to javascript and run it locally!
[23:09] <enkidu> use node.js to run php code on client side. pure evilness
[23:09] <craag> js server-side works great with all the async stuff, especially for db-heavy
[23:09] <adamgreig> yea it's not a bad idea
[23:09] <enkidu> what about security?
[23:09] <adamgreig> though I have some issues with js as a language too ;) but coffeescript solves all of them and is also node compatible!
[23:10] <adamgreig> it's a fairly entertaining target for other languages to compile to
[23:10] <adamgreig> enkidu: what about it?
[23:10] <craag> I keep hearing good things about coffeescript, will have to investigate.
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[23:10] <adamgreig> it's so great
[23:10] <adamgreig> use it once and you'll never write normal javascript again
[23:10] <adamgreig> literally anything
[23:10] <adamgreig> even oneoffs I'll write in cs and compile to js on their website, it's quicker
[23:10] <enkidu> sometimes I think it is better to use precompiled things on server side
[23:10] <adamgreig> for anything else, I include the coffee.js script on the website and let the browser buidl it :P
[23:11] <adamgreig> which is naughty, should compile cs to js first then send that, and I'd do that for anything serious...
[23:11] <craag> enkidu: Maybe if performance is of absolute priority
[23:12] <adamgreig> but you mostly can! precompiled libraries for the hard parts
[23:12] <adamgreig> and a happy dynamic language to actually glue it all together
[23:12] <craag> But I'm yet to find performance an issue at all with node.js, even with several hundred parallel queries.
[23:12] <adamgreig> and you get great performance and easy development and debugging
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[23:14] <enkidu> actually I had one thing that I wanted to be purely binary: hardware sensor reader. simple thing. few KB ELF without possibility of getting to system shell
[23:14] <adamgreig> "without possibility" ;)
[23:15] <craag> hehe
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[23:15] <enkidu> runned in chroot with system shell of /bin/false :P no way it could even try to run shell
[23:15] <adamgreig> "no way" ;)
[23:16] <mfa298> I've only come across one bit of code that made sense to be a compiled binary, but that was pulling lots of data out of mysql and generating a graph from it
[23:16] <craag> hehehehehe
[23:16] <craag> Well for the sensor reader you're probably never going to modify it once it's written
[23:16] <enkidu> sometimes it is fastest way, GDI on PHP is painful
[23:16] <mfa298> a lot of data potentially being several one minute samples for the course of a month.
[23:17] <enkidu> especially for reader that had to use one connection. I could open a socket for PHP but I decided to open a socket for network->less overhead
[23:17] <craag> anyway thanks for the pointer towards coffeescript. I'll try that out next time I write some js.
[23:18] <craag> gn all!
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[23:20] <mfa298> enkidu: never say no way, there have been exploits to break out of chroot.
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[23:22] <mfa298> I'm sure there are people out there that think it's safe to give web admins sudo access to vi so they can edit apache files. Because what can they do with a text editor
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[23:23] <enkidu> no sudo access to anyone, even my own account
[23:24] <enkidu> if I need root, I su
[23:24] <enkidu> then ctrl-
[23:24] <enkidu> d
[23:24] <adamgreig> and that's more secure how exactly?
[23:25] <enkidu> just because. one little paranoic thing
[23:25] <mfa298> sudo access to vi is basicly giving someone shell access anyway
[23:26] <mfa298> if you're giving someone meaningful access via sudo the only real difference is whether they know the root password or not.
[23:26] Nick change: Mission-Critical -> MissionCritical
[23:27] <mfa298> I tend to use su - rather than sudo as I know exactly what environment I'll have. If I use sudo will $HOME refer to ~root or ~me (depends on the sudo config)
[23:28] <enkidu> sometimes it is good to put noexec on home
[23:28] <mfa298> if you really want to confuse your users / hackers give them a Solaris box instead.
[23:29] <adamgreig> so they can run "killall apache" and then swear in sudden realisation?
[23:29] <mfa298> it's great fun watching them try linux kernel exploits against solaris
[23:29] <enkidu> and fake uname saying its hurd
[23:29] <adamgreig> hah
[23:29] <adamgreig> lol enkidu but no one would believe that ;)
[23:30] Action: mfa298 grabs the OS/2 disk
[23:30] <enkidu> good access restrictions plus some fake informations
[23:33] <enkidu> I've left my servers without any shell access from network they are operating. Each of them is reachable only via RS232 switch connected to shell server using separate broadband connection
[23:33] <mfa298> I think for really good access restricions Solaris has the right tools and Solaris 11 is starting to enforce them. With role based access rather for more privileged stuff.
[23:34] <mfa298> but people tend to be scared of solaris.
[23:39] <enkidu> need beer. night shop seems open, brb
[23:51] <crash_18974> sudo fetch beers -many
[23:55] <mfa298> sleep(25200);
[00:00] --- Fri Sep 20 2013