highaltitude.log.20130917

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[00:39] <crash_18974> how cool would it be if b-12 is still floating. cool enough to name a vitamin after it!
[00:49] <enkidu> =}
[00:50] <enkidu> maybe b-59 will succeed ;)
[00:50] <DL7AD> what?
[00:50] <enkidu> sorry, b-5
[00:50] <enkidu> 52*
[00:51] <enkidu> damn, need coffee and chocolate
[00:51] <DL7AD> enkidu are you doing the night shift? :D
[00:52] <enkidu> no, just my alarm clock failed in the morning and I woke up early
[00:52] <enkidu> (early for a student ;))
[00:52] <DL7AD> lol okay ^^
[00:53] <DL7AD> did not hear anything from the balloon yet
[00:53] <DL7AD> sometimes im listening to the stream
[00:54] <enkidu> as one of my proffesor said: student should wake up one minute before lecture end, so wont block place for another group
[00:54] <DL7AD> ^^
[00:55] <enkidu> my beer bottle reports malfunction
[00:55] <enkidu> its empty
[01:10] <enkidu> btw - anyone knows how to make fldigi stop taking whole screen space horizontally when started in hab mode? it is really annoying on thee monitors setup
[01:16] <Darkside> heh
[01:16] <Darkside> nope
[01:16] <Darkside> dunno why it does that
[01:20] <enkidu> btw - shitstorm started. In one of cities in Poland authorities prohibited using coal for heating
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[02:50] <enkidu> anyone alive?
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[02:51] <enkidu> there is something that beeps every three seconds on stream, but I dont know, if it will be B11 or just local noise. It is sunrise time...
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[03:51] <chris_4x1rf> enkidu: any telemetry or just beeps?
[04:42] <chris_4x1rf> enkidu: checked the recording around the time you mentioned, nothing worth mentioning
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[06:10] <eroomde> morning peppers
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[06:16] <x-f> morning, voices
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[06:17] <eroomde> don't listen to them
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[06:54] <eroomde> lots of churn
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[06:58] <adamgreig> freenode's web irc being silly
[06:58] <eroomde> you have done gnu stuff oui/non?
[06:59] <adamgreig> hm?
[06:59] <adamgreig> what do you mean by gnu stuff
[06:59] <eroomde> gpu
[06:59] <eroomde> clearly
[06:59] <adamgreig> oh
[06:59] <adamgreig> yes
[06:59] <adamgreig> my meng project was pretty much entirely that
[07:00] <eroomde> did you enjoy it?
[07:00] <adamgreig> yes
[07:00] <adamgreig> it was like a bizarre combination of writing c for embedded devices and writing really high performance code for an abstract library
[07:00] <adamgreig> you had to care a _lot_ about memory access and hardware layout, like a microcontroller
[07:00] <adamgreig> but also you wrote a few functions and by magic they get operated on a huge grid of data and results appear and stuff
[07:01] <adamgreig> pretty satisfying
[07:01] <eroomde> nice
[07:01] <adamgreig> especially when you suddenly grok what's going on in hardware, make a tiny change, see like 500% speedup
[07:01] <eroomde> i want to play, though i have no particular problem to solve
[07:01] <adamgreig> as ever probably worth finding some kind of problem
[07:01] <adamgreig> I highly recommend using OpenCL and PyOpenCL
[07:02] <adamgreig> https://github.com/adamgreig/iib/tree/master/simulation might be a helpful reference. idk
[07:02] <adamgreig> I do a range of bits and pieces though mostly my final code operated on OpenCL image2d types
[07:02] <adamgreig> rather than say long arrays of ints/floats
[07:03] <adamgreig> (because I was doing 2d stuff, the image types provide 2d spatial locality of reference, super nice)
[07:03] <eroomde> interesting
[07:03] <adamgreig> (they also provide native datatype conversion and clamping to edge values etc)
[07:03] <adamgreig> all things I was solving by myself in the earlier version that just used a big ol array of ints
[07:03] <adamgreig> https://github.com/adamgreig/iib/blob/601fc256d2b73016d7a063ec6bcbaec387993798/simulation/diffusion.py
[07:04] <adamgreig> is the previous code for comparison
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[07:04] <adamgreig> big float* array, then it does things to work out how to get at the right 2d data
[07:04] <adamgreig> loads of lines of code just working out correct array indicies and copying edge conditions and stuff
[07:04] <eroomde> i might do the audacity course
[07:04] <eroomde> which i believe uses cuda
[07:05] <adamgreig> :( cuda
[07:05] <adamgreig> audacity?
[07:05] <eroomde> but it'll hopefully be a decent start
[07:05] <eroomde> udacity*
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[07:05] <adamgreig> lol
[07:05] <eroomde> https://www.udacity.com/course/cs344
[07:05] <adamgreig> I like to encourage people to avoid cuda
[07:05] <eroomde> i will not wed myself to it :)
[07:05] <adamgreig> it's nvidia's fairly closed thing, it only runs on nvidia chips, and it's annoying and I want it to end up a footnote compared to opencl
[07:06] <adamgreig> opencl is an open standard, can run on CPUs, AMD, nvidia, intel GPUs, APUs, etc
[07:06] <adamgreig> plus, all CUDA devices run openCL
[07:06] <eroomde> i hope the value of the course is in the right way of thinking vs a specific language
[07:06] <adamgreig> hmm
[07:06] <adamgreig> bit of both
[07:06] <adamgreig> like learning a PIC instead of an AVR
[07:06] <adamgreig> lot of hardware specific bits
[07:06] <adamgreig> but both are embedded systems?
[07:06] <adamgreig> it uses different techniques and terminologies for stuff
[07:06] <adamgreig> not as drastic as single-accumulator vs harvard architecture in the pic/avr comparison
[07:06] <adamgreig> but still
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[07:13] <adamgreig> porridge, maple syrup, blackberries. yay breakfast
[07:13] <eroomde> toast black coffee
[07:13] <adamgreig> black coffee is a very rare breakfast treat for me
[07:13] <adamgreig> coffee generally, but if i have coffee it'l be black
[07:14] <eroomde> im dependant
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[07:15] <adamgreig> that's pretty much what I'm trying to avoid :P
[07:15] <eroomde> could be worse
[07:15] <adamgreig> at the moment I can happily stay up and work productively for 30 hours or more
[07:15] <adamgreig> my masters project pushed it hard but even that didn't involve coffee
[07:15] <adamgreig> suspect age will catch up with me soon enough
[07:16] <adamgreig> this phd will probably rob me of my youth and vitality and ability to stay awake
[07:16] <eroomde> yes
[07:16] <adamgreig> what little of those are left after the first degrees took their toll
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[07:17] <LeoBodnar_> morning gents
[07:17] <adamgreig> good morning
[07:17] <eroomde> mornatron
[07:19] <adamgreig> hah. made the mistake of comparing uni before/after pics
[07:19] <adamgreig> remind me to not do that with the phd
[07:19] <eroomde> you should see it with dan
[07:19] <adamgreig> hah
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[07:20] <adamgreig> oh my god
[07:20] <adamgreig> is that even the same person
[07:20] <adamgreig> haha I think I may have scrolled past "start of uni" into "high school"
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[07:21] <LeoBodnar_> aspirations replaced with cynicism
[07:21] <adamgreig> oh wow it wasn't even first year, actually
[07:22] <adamgreig> god, 4 years of degree followed by 3 years or so of PhD is a long time
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[07:22] <NickSF> msg NickServ identify nf0407
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[07:23] <adamgreig> lol
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[07:24] <adamgreig> btw eroomde I take it you saw the concordia salvage?
[07:26] <eroomde> 4.5 years
[07:26] <eroomde> http://imgur.com/a/nFwoR
[07:26] <eroomde> of cam degree
[07:26] <adamgreig> haha
[07:27] <eroomde> yes i saw
[07:27] <eroomde> interesting
[07:27] <adamgreig> https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/16469_188216681707_1500699_n.jpg
[07:27] <adamgreig> just shy of 4 years
[07:27] <adamgreig> ._.
[07:27] <eroomde> and today for comparison?
[07:27] <adamgreig> https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1012183_10200780361927310_11025276_n.jpg is recent enough
[07:27] <LeoBodnar_> Is it Whoopi Goldberg?
[07:28] <eroomde> yes - it's really changed him hasn't it
[07:28] <eroomde> no idea who the guy in the foreground is
[07:33] <fsphil> mlp cake. oh dear
[07:33] <adamgreig> uhm
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[07:33] <Hix> ah I am on
[07:33] <Hix> hello
[07:33] <adamgreig> well it's not like I made it or picked it
[07:34] <adamgreig> you can't choose what your friends bake you
[07:34] <fsphil> I'll accept that excuse :)
[07:34] <mfa298> morning Hix (and others)
[07:34] <fsphil> it is very well made
[07:34] <Hix> g'day
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[07:56] <fsphil> I guess the B-'s are down by now
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[08:04] <LeoBodnar_> adamgreig where is the tone pattern / code for the files you have generated? I can't make a few things match so wanted to do sanity check against actual tones
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[08:04] <LeoBodnar_> I think you have linked to it earlier
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[08:06] <adamgreig> http://nbviewer.ipython.org/urls/randomskk.net/u/DominoEX.ipynb
[08:07] <LeoBodnar_> cheers
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[08:26] <DL1SGP> Good Morning :)
[08:27] <fsphil> morning!
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[08:31] <DL1SGP> good luck daveake
[08:32] <daveake_> cheers
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[08:32] <daveake> off soon
[08:32] <fsphil> how's the weather today?
[08:32] <fsphil> or is that a stupid question for spain?
[08:33] <daveake> it is
[08:33] <daveake> :)
[08:34] <daveake> Looking forward to getting hold of that Pi and grabbing the images and video
[08:34] <daveake> The landing vid should be good
[08:35] <daveake> And with luck there'll be some (small) sunset and/or sunrise photos
[08:35] <daveake> It only takes small images on the ground
[08:36] <daveake> Have had to change Spanish SIM cards as I maxxed out the other one - has a daily limit of 1GB and I've hit that 3 days out of 4
[08:36] <fsphil> what altitude did the landing video begin?
[08:37] <fsphil> the last image shows hints of mountains
[08:37] <daveake> 3km, though it only checks every 30 secs
[08:37] <G0TDJ_Steve> Morning Guys :-)
[08:38] <daveake> I had to change the test as the ground is 1-2km up in these parts
[08:38] <DL1SGP> Good Morning Steve
[08:38] <fsphil> morn steve
[08:38] <daveake> morn Steve
[08:38] <fsphil> yea it's oddly high up there
[08:38] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hope it's all going well daveake
[08:38] <daveake> How does that landing alt compare with Upu's Austrian one?
[08:38] <DL1SGP> we have almost same weather here today. ignoring the fact that it is only 9c
[08:38] <daveake> Just having breakfast and making plans
[08:39] <fsphil> pava landed at 1600m
[08:39] <daveake> dammit
[08:39] <daveake> :)
[08:39] <DL1SGP> ah breakfast is always a good idea, especially with coffee involved, best lots of it
[08:39] <G0TDJ_Steve> Cool. Will you have positioning on when you recover the payload?
[08:40] <daveake> Not sure
[08:40] <daveake> Depends on how hilly it is :p
[08:40] <G0TDJ_Steve> :-) OK
[08:40] <daveake> We'll stream from the car on the way
[08:40] <daveake> If it's steep it'll be just my phone
[08:41] <daveake> Well, I can stream and send posn from that
[08:41] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'm sure we'll all enjoy following your progress whatever you do
[08:41] <daveake> I'll do my best to keep you up to date :)
[08:42] <G0TDJ_Steve> I just opened the streaming page and there a LOT of people waiting to see something :-)
[08:42] <daveake> hah
[08:43] <G0TDJ_Steve> Can I give them an idea of when it will happen?
[08:43] <G0TDJ_Steve> Ballpark...
[08:44] <G0TDJ_Steve> Cool, thanks Dave
[08:46] <daveake> How many were on batc yesterday? I counted well over 100
[08:46] <fsphil> that poor server
[08:46] <fsphil> the chat server was properly struggling. it was dropping db connections all over the place
[08:46] <G0TDJ_Steve> I lost several lines of text I posted and nothing happened
[08:47] <fsphil> yea from the sounds of it, it hit its connection limit
[08:47] <daveake> ok off now see y'all later
[08:47] <mfa298> I dupmed the online list of users at one point and there were 420 people
[08:47] <daveake> wow
[08:47] <fsphil> good luck!
[08:47] <G0TDJ_Steve> Catch you later Dave - Enjoy brekkie :-)
[08:47] <fsphil> don't die please
[08:47] <G0TDJ_Steve> How polite fsphil :-)
[08:48] <fsphil> it looks like australia there
[08:48] <fsphil> where everything is out to get you
[08:48] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'm sure they'll be fine
[08:49] <fsphil> yea, they're an experienced bunch
[08:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> Right, I have a job to do - be back soon
[08:50] <fsphil> oh yea, work
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[08:54] <Hix> 152 on here, that's pretty high no?
[08:55] <fsphil> not sure what the average is actually. it's been increasing for a while
[08:55] <mfa298> seems to have been around 130 whenever I've looked
[08:55] <Hix> i remember screengrabbing 128 when daveake did the big Pi launch
[08:55] <LeoBodnar_> adamgreig: the last file I can reliably decode is -11dB
[08:55] <mfa298> I think we peaked at 300/400 during the lohan in the water attempt
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[08:56] <Hix> ah whoopsie it was 226
[08:56] <Hix> http://i.imgur.com/5D5e0Yk.png
[08:57] Action: fsphil compares list to now
[08:57] <fsphil> we've some long term lurkers here :)
[08:58] Nick change: priyesh_ -> priyesh
[09:01] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar_: I guess that's good? I should run them through dl-fldigi I suppose
[09:01] <adamgreig> fairly small amount of data though
[09:01] <adamgreig> as I keep repeating, really need to do it many times with a lot of data and count errors :P
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[09:03] <ibanezmatt13> Morning
[09:04] <DL1SGP> good morning ibanezmatt13
[09:04] <ibanezmatt13> This is the first time I've got my windows phone to connect to irc from the really bad college wifi :)
[09:06] <DL1SGP> heh
[09:06] <DL1SGP> glad you made it
[09:06] <ibanezmatt13> -1.6x10^-19. is that the charge on an electron? I'm doing physics work
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[09:08] <LeoBodnar_> of course, one short string does not define BER
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[09:09] <LeoBodnar_> Millikan agrees
[09:09] <ibanezmatt13> :)
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[09:19] <Hix> how thoroughly exciting - shiny Leica arrival :D http://i.imgur.com/euSt4vo.jpg
[09:21] <fsphil> oh very nice
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[09:24] <Hix> I just need to get a base machined up now for macro-fun
[09:24] <eroomde> bk
[09:24] <Hix> morning eroomde
[09:24] <eroomde> morning
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[09:27] <Hix> shiny arrived eroomde :D
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[09:28] <eroomde> linky Hix
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[09:28] <Hix> http://i.imgur.com/euSt4vo.jpg
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[09:29] <eroomde> very nice!
[09:29] <Hix> impressed
[09:29] <Hix> it was a steal
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[10:08] <cuddykid> the lohan chaps didn't use a pawan did they? That would certainly explain the low burst alt
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[10:26] <Upu> no cuddykid
[10:28] <Hix> my brain still refuses to see them balloons as anything other than padawan
[10:28] <cuddykid> maybe it's just the spanish heat :P
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[10:30] <Upu> have we heard from Dave this morning ?
[10:30] <Hix> he was on earlier Upu
[10:30] <Upu> they heading out ?
[10:30] <Hix> (09:41:55)<daveake>I'll do my best to keep you up to date :)
[10:31] <DL1SGP> indeed, they were having breakfast and planning the hike. Dave was unsure if he would be entirely able to post posn and images from remote location
[10:31] <Hix> (09:40:35)<daveake>We'll stream from the car on the way
[10:31] <Hix> (09:40:54)<daveake>If it's steep it'll be just my phone
[10:31] <Hix> (09:41:08)<daveake>Well, I can stream and send posn from that
[10:31] <DL1SGP> indeed
[10:31] <Upu> fair enough
[10:31] <Upu> it looks like the surface of Mars that place
[10:32] <cuddykid> yeah
[10:33] <cuddykid> ssdv pics look rather different to the UK
[10:33] <DL1SGP> agreed Upu :) maybe Dave has a secret plan for being the first hab-launcher on Mars :)
[10:33] <Hix> I reckon Arko would probably get that :)
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[10:52] <nats`> hi peoples :)
[10:55] <DL1SGP> hi nats`
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[10:57] <Laurenceb_> https://youtube.com/watch?v=-LJ7hdlJMqg
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[11:05] <arko> Would not surprise me if I heard Dave on the the World Service talking about his hab on mars
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[11:07] <arko> I'm have such a lazy morning that its noon now
[11:08] <arko> Last full day in england.. Must drink as much coffee and beer as possible
[11:09] <adamgreig> haha
[11:09] <adamgreig> lazy mornings are great
[11:09] <adamgreig> glad you got to experience a bit of a range of british weather ;)
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[11:12] <arko> Haha yah
[11:12] <arko> Home is 30C :(
[11:12] <arko> I'm going to miss the cold
[11:12] <adamgreig> haha
[11:12] <adamgreig> sure you will
[11:12] <adamgreig> suure
[11:13] <arko> Not even kidding
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[11:26] <LazyLeopard> 16C indoors here. Was 15C earlier when I looked. Was probably colder earlier.
[11:27] <G0TDJ_Steve> Video stream is up
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[11:29] <eroomde> Hobby: reading crazy speculation on aRocket about how skylon works
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[11:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> Humm http://blog.360cities.net/theta-360-review/
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[11:31] <adamgreig> eroomde: hah, I bet that's entertaining
[11:31] <adamgreig> you could troll them super effectively
[11:32] <arko> Draw up a physics troll
[11:32] <adamgreig> on the plus side today's lunch was one of the sourdough rolls with smoked salmon and cream cheese, yay
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[11:33] <eroomde> must stay silent
[11:34] <arko> This is how jplers feel when people talk about the mars rovers being faked
[11:34] <arko> Or how daveake feels about Babbage hoax believers
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[11:43] <fsphil> I've heard Babbage wasn't even a real stuffed toy
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[11:54] <darkstar-2001> Yeah, I bet its easier to train a real bear than build electronics........:)b
[12:01] <daveake_> hah
[12:02] <Mik_WD8MNV> has the LOHAN stuff been recovered yet?
[12:02] <daveake_> Give us a chance!
[12:03] <daveake_> In the chase van now
[12:03] <daveake_> Stream should be running
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> daveake_: 3*10^-2 and falling.
[12:03] <Mik_WD8MNV> stream link?
[12:04] <DL1SGP> http://www.batc.tv/ch_live.php?ch=5&id=1153
[12:04] <Mik_WD8MNV> thanks
[12:05] <DL1SGP> they gonna be taking the approach via Villaviciosa. I bet we will get to see a pretty road up into the "mountains"
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[12:06] <Upu> I hope thats a 4x4 you're in daveake
[12:06] <Laurenceb_> im confused
[12:06] <Upu> that road doesn't look well like a road
[12:06] <Laurenceb_> launch was yesterday?
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[12:06] <Upu> yes
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[12:06] <Upu> landed up a hill in a remote area and was getting dark
[12:07] <Laurenceb_> oh i see
[12:07] <Laurenceb_> if there a relaunch planned today?
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[12:08] <daveake_> looks like a rally course
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[12:08] <DL1SGP> looks like a big fun road :D
[12:08] <daveake_> fri poss
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[12:09] Nick change: daveake_ -> dave_mcrae
[12:09] <fsphil> left 5 metres, then hard right
[12:09] <Laurenceb_> i see
[12:12] <dave_mcrae> stunning views to valley
[12:12] <DL1SGP> waaa a gate
[12:12] Action: DL1SGP hopes dave did not forget the TNT
[12:15] <dave_mcrae> cow gate
[12:15] <Upu> Dave have you seen Deliverance ?
[12:15] <Upu> Just checking
[12:17] <Upu> dave if you reduce the frame rate may smooth up the video feed
[12:22] <dave_mcrae> ok have reduced bitrate to 100
[12:23] <dave_mcrae> stopped for a lester break
[12:23] <Upu> ok
[12:23] <Upu> you're not far now
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> To do your taxes fraudulently?
[12:24] <iain_G4SGX> Google maps has
[12:24] <iain_G4SGX> a few pics of the track.. https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&gl=uk&q=40.511722,-4.911475&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0xd4087fece9182d1:0x36f3815256649a8c,40.511722,-4.911475&ei=Tkk4UvbcIMjR7AbF64GQBg&ved=0CC8Q8gEwAA
[12:25] <iain_G4SGX> if you move the little yellow man
[12:26] <dave_mcrae> epic drive
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[12:30] <iain_G4SGX> Got to be almost within visual noiw
[12:31] <dave_mcrae> signal
[12:33] <Upu> must be in a ditch
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[12:36] <dave_mcrae> sorry netbook ran out of juice
[12:36] <dave_mcrae> f-ing glorius views up here
[12:36] <dave_mcrae> beats UK :)
[12:36] <LeoBodnar_> digital filter experts, summon thyself! I have a problem
[12:36] <fsphil> take many pics
[12:36] <dave_mcrae> you'd have to land in the lake district to beat this
[12:37] <Upu> Saw some pics from google and it looks amazing
[12:37] <LeoBodnar_> trying to model de-emphasis RC circuit in FM radios
[12:37] <fsphil> or the yorkshire dales...
[12:37] <fsphil> actually no
[12:37] <fsphil> that's just full of sheep and forests and mountains
[12:37] <LeoBodnar_> in theory it should be -6dB/octave past the knee
[12:38] <mattbrejza> yea
[12:38] <iain_G4SGX> Yep, no trees is a bonus too.
[12:38] <mattbrejza> then 20dB/dec
[12:38] <LeoBodnar_> I am using recursive filter from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter
[12:38] <LeoBodnar_> y[i] := y[i-1] + ± * (x[i] - y[i-1])
[12:38] <dave_mcrae> rxing now
[12:39] <LeoBodnar_> set RC time constant large to move knee very low, say RC=1000usec
[12:39] <iain_G4SGX> map updated on spears?
[12:39] <mattbrejza> wait its 3dB at the knee
[12:39] <LeoBodnar_> Run simulation on 1kHz sine, get amplitude after filter 0.254380619
[12:39] <LeoBodnar_> On 2kHz sine amplitude is 0.141392837
[12:40] <LeoBodnar_> Difference is 1.8
[12:40] <LeoBodnar_> where is the problem?
[12:41] <mattbrejza> using that formula? so youre simulating a RC filter with that digital one?
[12:41] <LeoBodnar_> yeah
[12:41] <LeoBodnar_> I might be too close to the knee
[12:41] <mattbrejza> if you want to simulate, id recommend LTspice
[12:41] <LeoBodnar_> This is all so screwed
[12:42] <LeoBodnar_> All amateur FM literature says they are using 75usec RC time constant in de-emphasis
[12:42] <enkidu> LeoBodnar_: after discriminator
[12:42] <mattbrejza> so if RC = 1ms, then the cutoff is 159Hz
[12:43] <LeoBodnar_> yet they are all saying the difference between the 2200Hz and 1200Hz tones should be 5.5dB
[12:43] <mattbrejza> yea so that is about 20dB/dec slope?
[12:44] <LeoBodnar_> 75usec TC can't be true
[12:45] <LeoBodnar_> so what is de-emphasis time constant?
[12:46] <mattbrejza> na 75uS is 2122Hz
[12:47] <LeoBodnar_> Yeah, so both 1200 and 2200 modem freq are below the knee
[12:47] <LeoBodnar_> so what 6db/oct are they talking about?
[12:47] <LeoBodnar_> what a mess
[12:48] <LeoBodnar_> http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Electronics/Frequency%20Modulation.pdf "http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Electronics/Frequency%20Modulation.pdf"
[12:48] <mattbrejza> so all you want is a 5dB boost filter for >2kHz?
[12:48] <mattbrejza> digital?
[12:50] <LeoBodnar_> Firstly I don't understand why digital recursive filter delivers 5.1dB/oct difference
[12:50] <LeoBodnar_> instead of 6
[12:50] <mattbrejza> i guess the cutoff could be 2kHz then a 2nd or 4th order filter or something like that
[12:51] <LeoBodnar_> secondly amateur FM deemphasis circuit should have a knee below 300Hz if they want to maintain 6dB/oct over the whole of the audio channel
[12:51] <LeoBodnar_> not at 75usec
[12:51] <enkidu> LeoBodnar_: it is standard constant
[12:51] <mattbrejza> i dont think they have 6dB/oct over the entire passband though?
[12:52] <LeoBodnar_> then it does not de-emphasize anything below 2kHz
[12:52] <LeoBodnar_> and 1200Hz has the same level as 2200Hz
[12:52] <enkidu> it can be possible (nearly)
[12:53] <mattbrejza> well 75uS = 2100Hz cutoff, which with a 4th order filter will attenuate 2200Hz quite a bit
[12:53] <LeoBodnar_> http://vk1od.net/FM/FM.htm "Narrowband voice applications usually set the filter breakpoint outside the voice band and deliver a 6dB / octave slope over the entire band."
[12:53] <enkidu> http://www.daenotes.com/electronics/communication-system/pre-emphasis-and-de-emphasis
[12:53] <mattbrejza> i guess every radio is different
[12:54] <LeoBodnar_> Thats WFB broadcasts enkidu
[12:54] <LeoBodnar_> *WFM
[12:54] <enkidu> ah, will look to nfm
[12:56] <LeoBodnar_> I need a digital de-emphasis simulation for some AX.25 packet design. So I do not understand why RC filter recursive simulation produces 5.1dB/oct instead of 6...
[12:57] <mattbrejza> is that formula supposed to accurately model the analogue one?
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[12:58] <LeoBodnar_> Well it's derived from RC network differential equation and it is quite benign wrt simulation
[12:59] <mattbrejza> you might be too near hte knee
[12:59] <enkidu> LeoBodnar_: maybe filter is detuned due to load?
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[12:59] <enkidu> in a model of course
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[13:01] <LeoBodnar_> Model simulates ideal AC voltage source and open no load
[13:01] <mattbrejza> ltspice says RC = 1ms gives 6dB difference between 1khz and 2khz
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[13:01] <LeoBodnar_> Maybe need to check it in LTSpice for sanity
[13:02] <LeoBodnar_> So why recursive scheme differs so much?
[13:02] <LeoBodnar_> Hold on, bug hunt
[13:03] <Hix> iain_G4SGX did you end up getting the ThinkPad GPS card working?
[13:03] <nats`> my 2 cents it's a IIR
[13:03] <nats`> doesn't it have a problem when you let it run in idle
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[13:03] <nats`> I remember of crap with limit cycle stuff in
[13:04] <iain_G4SGX> Hix: Yes eventually, ubuntu still has some issues but works most of the time
[13:04] <mattbrejza> the sample rate might be too low
[13:04] <LeoBodnar_> Ah, found a problem
[13:04] <LeoBodnar_> Simulation starts with discharged capacitor in the filter
[13:05] <iain_G4SGX> Capacitor ESR is accounted for?
[13:05] <LeoBodnar_> screws up amplitude reading
[13:05] <nats`> ;)
[13:05] <Hix> iain_G4SGX any joy in windows environment?
[13:05] <mattbrejza> ah
[13:05] <nats`> I add the same problem with spice once by messing with start parameter
[13:06] <LeoBodnar_> Cheers, diving back into the maths
[13:06] <iain_G4SGX> Hix: Yes that wasn't problem at all, worked pretty much straight away after downloading lenovo drivers
[13:06] <nats`> don't forget the ibuprofene :)
[13:07] <Hix> hmm, I'll have to have a revisit
[13:07] <LeoBodnar_> Yeah, I'm with Bob Pease on simulations.
[13:07] <LeoBodnar_> Stick a voltmeter on and measure it.
[13:07] <LeoBodnar_> SPICE takes away your ability to get good insights on what is happening. Spice actually HURTS your understanding of how circuits function.
[13:08] <iain_G4SGX> Hix: Ubuntu works but I have to give access to the port by command line and wait til GPS is received before I start dl-fldigi
[13:08] <iain_G4SGX> Hix: Using a cheap $20 Gobi2000 card from ebay
[13:09] <Hix> have you got a link iain_G4SGX for the win drivers? I downloaded some thinkvantage gps, but not seen it work
[13:09] <nats`> LeoBodnar I agree but I hate maths and forget everything I learn in math
[13:09] <nats`> so yayyyy I love spice :D
[13:09] <iain_G4SGX> Hix: will have to check history on lappy. brb
[13:10] <Hix> cheers
[13:10] <LeoBodnar_> Good scope beats Spice
[13:11] <LeoBodnar_> sometimes
[13:11] <mattbrejza> you can get a lot done without spice by just knowing 20dB/dec per order
[13:11] <LeoBodnar_> anyway, thanks for letting me find the problem! :D
[13:11] <mattbrejza> good to see you havnt broken theory
[13:11] <nats`> I use spice but to be honnest if you want a real simulation it takes too much time to get the good components model
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[13:11] <nats`> so I use it now only to check if something is not totally wrong
[13:12] <LeoBodnar_> Yeah, common sense should override maths. I would not have noticed the problem if didn't try to prove results on an envelope
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[13:12] <nats`> ohh interesting stuff on spice did you see some example of genetic algorithm using spice to design basic function ?
[13:12] <nats`> that's pretty fun :)
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[13:13] <keydash_> helooo
[13:13] <nats`> http://hforsten.com/evolutionary-algorithms-and-analog-electronic-circuits.html <= if interested :)
[13:14] <LeoBodnar_> thanks nats` saved for later reading
[13:15] <eroomde> i find that often maths should override common sense
[13:16] <eroomde> trusting your analysis is often fruitful when you think ;nah that's not gonna work'
[13:16] <eroomde> but the analysis says otherwise
[13:16] <eroomde> unless of course you think you're going to travel at 2c
[13:16] <keydash_> were the 'spanish' balloon found?
[13:16] Nick change: nerdsville -> nerdsville_M6GTG
[13:17] <LeoBodnar_> Any idea what actual tau would be in de-emphasis circuit of a typical ham radio?
[13:17] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Their chasing it down now http://www.batc.tv/ch_live.php parked on a mountain top walking down to it in 34C
[13:19] <nats`> LeoBodnar : http://www.mrc.uidaho.edu/~knoren/GAs/B-159_paper.PDF <= this one is more itneresting I lost the link in my favs :)
[13:21] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar_: i thought of another solution....
[13:21] <Laurenceb_> use the secondary radar system
[13:22] <Laurenceb_> then follow on flightradar24....
[13:22] <Hix> iain_G4SGX this is the one I used http://support.lenovo.com/en_GB/downloads/detail.page?&LegacyDocID=MIGR-73724
[13:22] <Hix> for all the good it seems to have done
[13:22] <LeoBodnar_> Have you seen our exchange with adamgreig yesterday? :)
[13:22] <Laurenceb_> nope
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[13:22] <Laurenceb_> im not sure what the air traffic guys would think of this idea :P
[13:22] <iain_G4SGX> Hix: Yep thaTS THEDid you download the ultra-nav utility version 2.13.0 also?
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[13:23] <Laurenceb_> you were thinking of passive radar?
[13:23] <LeoBodnar_> [22:18] <LeoBodnar> Can you use existing SSR network to trigger response on ISM band? [22:18] <adamgreig> ssr? [22:18] <LeoBodnar> secondary radars [22:19] <LeoBodnar> the ones that trigger mode-c and mode-s transponders [22:19] <adamgreig> hmm
[13:23] <LeoBodnar_> I have thought about this as well
[13:23] <iain_G4SGX> Hix:yep thats the one, there are a load of pre-requisete depending on your card, need the hotkey download too
[13:23] <Laurenceb_> oh
[13:24] <Laurenceb_> so you use it for positioning
[13:24] <Laurenceb_> clever
[13:24] <Laurenceb_> but the max7 seems to work pretty well with all the powersaving
[13:24] <LeoBodnar_> Maybe we can cook something up
[13:24] <LeoBodnar_> It's just for the fun of it I guess
[13:25] <Laurenceb_> pity WSPR isnt quite suited for this
[13:25] <LeoBodnar_> very narrow purpose project :(
[13:26] <LeoBodnar_> saved as well nats`
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[13:26] <keydash_> what streaming is it?
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[13:27] <LeoBodnar_> It's difficult to know the SSR beam position as it triggers the response
[13:27] <LeoBodnar_> Unless you monitor aircraft xponder replies as well
[13:27] <Hix> iain_G4SGX hoping its the hotkey download that caused this. though I really don't see why
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[13:28] <LeoBodnar_> You don't know your bearing wrt to SSR
[13:31] <iain_G4SGX> Hix: Must say i thought is was broke too until i took it outside. Should be on com4
[13:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://www.batc.tv/ch_live.php?z=1&id=1153&ch=5 keydash_
[13:31] <wb8elk_> Someone found my Party3 payload in Waxhaw, NC. He just called me. He said he found it yesterday evening in his backyard. The foil balloon is totally gone, just the filler part is left. He saw the solar cell glinting in the sunlight.
[13:31] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar_: JT-65 is only ~ 2dB worse than WSPR
[13:32] <Laurenceb_> and it allows a message payload
[13:32] <LeoBodnar_> Is it spread spectrum-ish?
[13:32] <wb8elk_> It was heard in Atlanta Georgia that morning so must have burst in the afternoon.
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[13:32] <LeoBodnar_> wb8elk_: has it ruptured after the sun came up?
[13:33] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hi Guys - I had to go out. What's the latest on LOHAN please?
[13:33] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar_: 65 MFSK
[13:33] <LeoBodnar_> If no balloon then it must have fallen pretty much within a few miles of burst
[13:33] <Laurenceb_> with 2.7Hz spacing
[13:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> parked up out walking, or round the back of the vehicle having lunch we're not sure
[13:33] <Laurenceb_> thats a little challenging for the PLL
[13:33] <wb8elk_> It was heard in Atlanta Georgia in the morning (about 200 miles west of where it landed)....so sounds like it burst in the afternoon near Charlotte North Carolina
[13:33] <G0TDJ_Steve> Cheers Geoff
[13:34] <keydash_> thanks Geoff-G8DHE
[13:34] <LeoBodnar_> Oh, that's tough but could still be possible
[13:34] <wb8elk_> yes...probably pretty close
[13:34] <LeoBodnar_> or DDS chip
[13:34] <keydash_> seems it doesn't load
[13:34] <LeoBodnar_> It's HF, right?
[13:35] <Laurenceb_> yes
[13:35] <Laurenceb_> actually looks like its -24dB on the HAM scale
[13:35] <LeoBodnar_> HF is easier than 2.7Hz @ UHF
[13:35] <Laurenceb_> so 4 dB worse than WSPR
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[13:46] <nerdsville_M6GTG> have they located LOHAN yet?
[13:47] <Laurenceb_> theres JT-9, down to -27dB
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[13:52] <fsphil> located yes, recovered .. not sure
[13:52] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hey Andy! Love the callsign :D
[13:54] <craag> Congrats nerdsville_M6GTG
[13:55] <craag> THat's a nice callsign
[13:55] <fsphil> wb8elk_: neat! sounds like the balloon exploded
[13:55] <craag> Especially for HF pile-ups, the Golf-Tango-Golf is something the calling station will hear very well and pick out.
[13:55] <nerdsville_M6GTG> thanks it is actually my late father's initials.. he sacrificed so much and so many working electrical devices in my quest ot become a nerd!
[13:55] <iain_G4SGX> JT9-30, has total bandwidth 0.4 Hz and operates at signal-to-noise ratios as low as –40 dB measured in the standard 2.5 kHz reference bandwidth
[13:56] <iain_G4SGX> !!
[13:56] <fsphil> ah, is this the first UKHAS foundation callsign/
[13:56] <craag> fsphil: A couple have come through today :)
[13:56] <fsphil> fantastic
[13:56] <G0TDJ_Steve> nerdsville_M6GTG: Did you see my reply on Twitter?
[13:57] <Laurenceb_> but JT-9 is only 1.736 Hz spacing
[13:57] <nerdsville_M6GTG> yes G0TDJ_Steve I did.. ;-)
[13:57] <G0TDJ_Steve> COol
[13:58] <nerdsville_M6GTG> Good To Go.. I like it
[13:58] <G0TDJ_Steve> People always make something of your callsign, well they did when I was first licenced. I got Tells Dirty Jokes!
[13:59] <nerdsville_M6GTG> lol.. how is the hunt for LOHAN going, been away from PC over lunch
[13:59] <iain_G4SGX> Would be interesting to ill say 500Hz with parallel jt9 sigs to test throughput.
[13:59] <mfa298> That was always the fun of being given a random callsign, trying to come up with some suitable phonetics
[13:59] <iain_G4SGX> *fill
[14:00] <iain_G4SGX> You may have noticed i have a dodgy 'F' by now..
[14:00] <iain_G4SGX> :)
[14:01] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'm in the dark too Andy - Last I heard the recovery team were breaking for lunch, and that was before my lunch
[14:02] <iain_G4SGX> -40dB is mental though.
[14:02] <nerdsville_M6GTG> k.. Steve just wondered if they had been attacked by the goats
[14:02] <G0TDJ_Steve> LOL... The ones with specially evolved legs to stand on hills :-)
[14:03] <Hix> spanish lunch can take a while G0TDJ_Steve ;p
[14:03] <G0TDJ_Steve> :-)
[14:04] <iain_G4SGX> Surely a s/n ratio taken over the signal bandwidth would be a more usefull measurement, 2.5 KHz is to wide these days
[14:04] <cg45345> siesta :-))
[14:09] <LeoBodnar_> Is JT-9 conversation mode or automatic receivers network?
[14:14] <iain_G4SGX> same as jt65 pretty much but with an exstra optional message at the end instead of standard '73'
[14:14] <iain_G4SGX> psk reporter maps jt9
[14:15] <iain_G4SGX> http://pskreporter.info/pskmap.html select jt9
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[14:16] <iain_G4SGX> Its like WSPR in thats its very narrow bandwidth but with JT65 type exchanges
[14:17] <iain_G4SGX> Only JT9-1 is used at the mo
[14:17] <iain_G4SGX> Dont think ive ever heard JT9-30 yet
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[14:23] <daveake> recovered
[14:24] <fsphil> congrats!
[14:24] <daveake> Well I have, but Lester is still puffing :p
[14:24] <fsphil> easy enough to get to?
[14:25] <tweetBot> @daveake: Yesterday's flight recovered after a 7km rally course and 1km hike #UKHAS #RaspberryPi
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[14:25] <G0TDJ_Steve> YAY! :D
[14:26] <martinus> Sweet! Sounds like an adventure. :)
[14:26] <G0TDJ_Steve> Well done guys - Great to know
[14:26] <fsphil> An unexpected adventure
[14:26] <martinus> I lost the video feed to the car but it looked seriously off the beaten track. :)
[14:27] <G0TDJ_Steve> daveake: I look forward to seeing pics
[14:27] <daveake_> me too
[14:28] <G0TDJ_Steve> daveake_: Is the 'proper' launch still scheduled for Thurs?
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[14:28] <Hix> from the look of that road daveake, you're lucky you never met Sainz or Sordo coming the other way :)
[14:28] <daveake_> not doing that
[14:28] <G0TDJ_Steve> Change of plan then
[14:28] <daveake_> will do a flight tho
[14:28] <daveake_> yup
[14:28] <arko> nice work daveake_ !
[14:28] <daveake_> cheers
[14:29] <arko> is the balloon still attached?
[14:29] <daveake_> lots of it
[14:29] <arko> hmmm
[14:29] <martinus> How did the igniter test go?
[14:29] <arko> im curious to see how it split
[14:29] <daveake_> didn't get high enough
[14:29] <mfa298> these lohan flights do like to hang onto their latex
[14:30] <Hix> i thought LOHAN would have been entirely latex free :)
[14:30] <daveake_> lol
[14:30] <G0TDJ_Steve> He's quick... :-)
[14:31] <Hix> possibly silicone would be better suited
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[14:32] <martinus> Ah, of course, the igniter is pressure triggered IIRC.
[14:32] <daveake_> gps
[14:33] <martinus> Am I thinking of the earlier launch?
[14:33] <martinus> I remember seeing an extending rod on a syringe.
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[14:36] <martinus> Ah, that was the glider release mechanism from quite some time ago. Sorry, I've obviously not been keeping up.
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[14:36] <DL1SGP> dave_mcrae is back on the track
[14:44] <Hix> is dave_mcrae part of the recovery team?
[14:47] <seventeen> [12:09] == daveake_ has changed nick to dave_mcrae
[14:50] <Upu> I think it was in reference to the rather bumpy track they were on
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[15:45] <G0TDJ_Steve> All the excitement over *sigh*
[15:46] Nick change: 5EXAAKZCN -> ghoti_
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[15:46] <martinus> Until the main launch, at least.
[15:47] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, I@m looing forward to that. Perhaps we can rally some more receivers before it happens?
[15:48] <Hix> Upu - I was going to say - it was an ironic name :D
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[15:58] <Laurenceb_> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1521768569/edgertronictm-the-first-affordable-high-speed-vide?ref=category
[15:58] Action: Laurenceb_ droolllzzzz
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[16:07] <LeoBodnar_> Is there anybody on the US west coast that has UHF receiver to listen to B-12 later today/tomorrow?
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[16:07] Nick change: ghoti_ -> ghoti
[16:09] <Hix> Arko may know some. I'm off now though
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[16:10] <arko> LeoBodnar_: i can setup when i get home on wednesday
[16:10] <arko> more likely thursday
[16:10] <arko> is it really predicted to show up in the west coast?
[16:12] <mattbrejza> LeoBodnar_: you need to try to get one in the jet stream once the weather goes back to being crap
[16:13] <Laurenceb_> need a way to get comms first
[16:13] <Laurenceb_> that seems to be the challenge now
[16:13] <LeoBodnar_> It will be gone on Thursday http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/15725_trj001.gif
[16:13] <Laurenceb_> CNSP?
[16:13] <mattbrejza> yea was thinking that, you wont know where its gone after 5 hoyurs
[16:14] <LeoBodnar_> Nothing on globaltuners or websdr in the US
[16:14] <Laurenceb_> California near space might help
[16:14] <Laurenceb_> tho you would break their record if they picked it up...
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[16:17] <Ugi_> LeoBodnar_: Have you heard from B-11 or B-12 in the last week or so?
[16:17] <mattbrejza> so for comms youre thinking a super low baud rate mode on one of the <30MHz ISM bands?
[16:17] <Laurenceb_> yes
[16:17] <LeoBodnar_> No, no trackers anywhere in sight
[16:17] <mattbrejza> 6MHz?
[16:17] <LeoBodnar_> 13.56MHz
[16:17] <LeoBodnar_> 6MHz antenna is a bit a challange
[16:17] <iain_G4SGX> Oooh, whats the max power on that band?
[16:18] <mattbrejza> 10dBm
[16:18] <LeoBodnar_> 10mW in the UK
[16:18] <mattbrejza> also you have the issue of HF noise the lower in frequency you go i think
[16:18] <LeoBodnar_> International waters is whatever you can afford
[16:18] <Laurenceb_> WSPR would seem perfect for this
[16:18] <Laurenceb_> but the protocol is a little limited
[16:19] <arko> wow
[16:19] <LeoBodnar_> Domex 4 ?
[16:19] <Laurenceb_> dunno what the WSPR crowd would say to it being abused
[16:19] <arko> LeoBodnar_: i'll try my best
[16:19] <Laurenceb_> Domex seems a bit poor SNR wise
[16:19] <LeoBodnar_> Cheers arko
[16:19] <arko> i'll be jetlagged though...
[16:19] <mattbrejza> make your own? :P
[16:19] <arko> so dont hold your breath :P
[16:20] <mattbrejza> probaly best to try a flidgi one first though
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[16:21] <mattbrejza> is wspr normally 10mW?
[16:22] <Laurenceb_> no
[16:23] <Laurenceb_> most people use 100mW or more
[16:23] <Laurenceb_> but lots of round the world contacts have been made with 1mW or so
[16:23] <mattbrejza> hmm ok
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[16:24] <Laurenceb_> 2013-09-15 00:40 6P5VNX 10.140273 -4 -2 LE83 0.001 N2NOM FN22bg 16294 280
[16:24] <Laurenceb_> 16294Km on 1mW
[16:24] <mattbrejza> could cheat and use one of those really small animal satellite trackers
[16:25] <Laurenceb_> link?
[16:25] <mattbrejza> im sure they exist :P
[16:25] <mattbrejza> the argos ones
[16:25] <Laurenceb_> lol
[16:26] <mattbrejza> http://www.argos-system.org/files/Publication/public/r231_f33_anl_68.pdf
[16:26] <mattbrejza> down to 12g solar powered
[16:26] <Laurenceb_> oh not argos argos
[16:26] <Laurenceb_> wow
[16:26] <Laurenceb_> that changes everything
[16:28] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos_System
[16:28] <Laurenceb_> very interesting
[16:28] <mattbrejza> was going to be used for kraken but then rockblock came along
[16:28] <Laurenceb_> didnt know about that
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[16:31] <Laurenceb_> http://www.argos-system.org/web/en/52-getting-started.php
[16:31] <Laurenceb_> interesting
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[16:33] <Laurenceb_> http://www.sirtrack.com/index.php/avian/14-avian-argos-attachment-options/95-argos-implant
[16:34] <Laurenceb_> eeek big brother
[16:34] <Laurenceb_> http://www.sirtrack.com/images/pdfs/303_K3I.pdf
[16:35] <Laurenceb_> this is too easy :P
[16:35] <mattbrejza> tbh your phone already allows you to be tracked
[16:35] <mattbrejza> yea theres a reason a said its cheating :P
[16:35] <mattbrejza> argos is bpsk on VHF i seem to remember
[16:36] <Laurenceb_> K3I 149A + qualatex foil and job is done
[16:36] <Laurenceb_> i see
[16:36] <Laurenceb_> im guessing there is some sort of tag id?
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> or are they distinguished by doppler shift?
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> "Argos transmit power: 500mW
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> "
[16:37] <mattbrejza> i would guess so, the rockblock modules have an id like a phone does
[16:37] <mattbrejza> EMEI?
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> that seems a bit challenging as far as battery goes
[16:37] <mattbrejza> i think there are different versions, you can get away with 100mW
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> yeah but how would it be used? spread spectrum or somthing maybe?
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> i see
[16:38] <Laurenceb_> they use a primary cell, so somewhat easier
[16:39] <mattbrejza> 401MHz
[16:39] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[16:39] <mattbrejza> 400bps
[16:39] <Laurenceb_> i wonder what happens if you start transmitting your own stuff....
[16:39] <Laurenceb_> where is the spec?
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> i guess CNES might be quite helpful if they were emailed
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> or not....
[16:40] <mattbrejza> im getting this from an email exchange with someone called cls
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> ah
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[16:41] <DagoRed> Hey guys.... question. A friend of mine is considering a trans atlantic sail boat. I can't remember what you guys use for tracking. I know in the past the group I was with in college just used APRS but I know that doesn't work as well over seas.
[16:42] <Laurenceb_> aha http://www.argos-system.org/manual/index.html#2-system/22-platforms.htm
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[16:43] <Laurenceb_> this looks doable, but it'd have to be co-ordinated with CNES
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[16:44] <Laurenceb_> or just buy a tracker, register it on the online thingy and hack it
[16:44] <Laurenceb_> to send the telemetry.. thats the naughty option
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[16:45] <Laurenceb_> guess it depends how friendly they would be to this sort of thing
[16:45] <mattbrejza> i dont have the full spec though
[16:45] <mattbrejza> but reasonably detailed
[16:46] <Laurenceb_> i guess it must be fairly robust or itd break from all the junk it must pick up from up there
[16:46] <Laurenceb_> so its not like a firmware bug in one tag is going to take down the whole system
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[16:47] <Laurenceb_> id imagine they would be very worried about hacked/custom tags breaking things
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[16:47] <mattbrejza> im just uploading the specs
[16:47] <mattbrejza> they wernt marked as confidential so seems fine...?
[16:48] <mattbrejza> lol the building just sprung a leak again
[16:49] <LeoBodnar_> How about getting a 23g one and replacing battery for solar panel + supercap
[16:49] <LeoBodnar_> The biggest volume seems to be the cell
[16:49] <LeoBodnar_> and epoxy goo
[16:49] <mattbrejza> http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mfb2g09/AS3-SP-516-2281-CNES_2_0.pdf
[16:50] <Laurenceb_> thanks
[16:50] <mattbrejza> http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mfb2g09/AS3-SP-516-2098-CNES.pdf
[16:50] <Obscene_CNN> and the saved weight can be used for a death ray
[16:50] <mattbrejza> http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mfb2g09/AS3-SP-516-2095-CNES.pdf
[16:50] <DagoRed> thanks Laurenceb_, I'll pass that tracker information along.
[16:50] <enkidu> DagoRed: why dont you use some simple AIS device?
[16:50] <Laurenceb_> hah this looks like the sort of junk i used to write at SSTL
[16:50] <mattbrejza> DagoRed: if weight isnt an issue use rockblock
[16:51] <mattbrejza> http://rockblock.rock7mobile.com/
[16:51] <Laurenceb_> yeah too heavy for pico
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[16:54] <DagoRed> mattbrejza: weight isn't an issue, I'll look into that.
[16:54] <mattbrejza> http://track.poseidon.sgsphysics.co.uk/ was RB
[16:56] <DagoRed> what is that?
[16:56] <DagoRed> Oh...
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[17:01] <tweetBot> @thoughtstore: "Rdio-Exclusive Doc Goes Behind the Scenes of Felix's Space Jump" http://t.co/H2Z0L28muz #space #ukhas
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[17:18] <Laurenceb_> this Argos thingy looks like the perfect system
[17:18] <Laurenceb_> for picoballoon :P
[17:18] <mattbrejza> i still think a HF thing would be a nicer solution
[17:21] <Laurenceb_> heh
[17:21] <Laurenceb_> i cant find the Rx spec anywhere
[17:21] <Laurenceb_> maybe im missing it
[17:22] <Laurenceb_> was looking for the sensitivity on the sat
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[17:26] <darkstar-20011> How much does argos cost? I had a look but didn't see any prices.
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[17:27] <Sven1987h> hi
[17:27] <Laurenceb_> i guess its possible to calculate the sat sensitivity based on the specs
[17:27] <Laurenceb_> looks like circular polarization works best?
[17:32] <Laurenceb_> hmm this gives a 16dB SNR
[17:32] <Laurenceb_> at 2500Km range
[17:33] <Laurenceb_> thats not bad
[17:33] <Laurenceb_> - if i assume 100mW Tx and 2dBi antenni
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[17:38] <Laurenceb_> Argos is pretty much built for picoballoons :P
[17:38] <Laurenceb_> plenty of space for user messages and a web interface for the data
[17:39] <fsphil> how heavy?
[17:39] <Laurenceb_> well...
[17:39] <Laurenceb_> the tronics on B-11/B-12 would almost work
[17:40] <fsphil> almost
[17:40] <Laurenceb_> need a way to do BPSK
[17:41] <fsphil> so there's no existing hardware for a ground station?
[17:41] <Laurenceb_> huh
[17:41] <Laurenceb_> it uses satellites
[17:41] <Laurenceb_> and goes via CNES server, so you need an account
[17:41] <fsphil> would probably need a license to transmit on 401mhz
[17:42] <Laurenceb_> yeah its complex - more importantly CNES would need to certify a new transmitter
[17:42] <fsphil> hehe, http://www.telonics.com/products/argosMarine/
[17:42] <Laurenceb_> but apparently they are prepared to do that for uni teams
[17:42] <fsphil> 49g
[17:43] <fsphil> 15g, http://www.telonics.com/products/argosAvian/
[17:44] <fsphil> wonder how much the case weighs
[17:47] <Laurenceb_> aiui you can't just turn those things on and go
[17:47] <Laurenceb_> they still have to be registered
[17:48] <fsphil> aye
[17:49] <Laurenceb_> the bpsk scheme seems a little annoying - its really qpsk
[17:49] <LeoBodnar> Argos is like a scooter for marathon runners :D
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[17:50] <Laurenceb_> itd need some work to be solar powered and lighter
[17:50] <LeoBodnar> go on, try it, you know you want to!
[17:51] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:51] <LeoBodnar> lol
[17:51] <LeoBodnar> thye have everything we need
[17:51] <LeoBodnar> GPS option as well
[17:51] <fsphil> it does seem ideal
[17:52] <Laurenceb_> GPS is kind of unecessary
[17:52] <fsphil> not including cost anyway
[17:52] <Laurenceb_> the doppler position is good enough to pico
[17:52] <Laurenceb_> i dunno how youd go about doing it
[17:52] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[17:52] <Laurenceb_> if say telonics would be able to help
[17:53] <Laurenceb_> with custom firmware to allow serial io or something
[17:53] <Laurenceb_> or if the custom device approved by CNES would work
[17:53] <Laurenceb_> or even hack a telonic tracker
[17:53] <LeoBodnar> can you get one and clone it?
[17:54] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[17:54] <Laurenceb_> using an off the shelf tracker looks pretty easy - buy it and register on the website
[17:54] <Laurenceb_> and its ready to go it seems
[17:56] <LeoBodnar> The cost of a single PTT unit is usually $3,000-$4,500 http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/wildlife/radiotrk/satell.htm
[17:56] <fsphil> ooch
[17:57] <Laurenceb_> "White and Garrott 1990"
[17:57] <LeoBodnar> Adjust for inflation then :D
[17:57] <Laurenceb_> a little out of date
[17:57] <Laurenceb_> heh maybe
[17:57] <Laurenceb_> i guess there is dev costs and low sales
[17:58] <Laurenceb_> need to get a uni team onboard
[17:58] <Laurenceb_> and custom CNES approved unit
[17:58] <Laurenceb_> or you could hack the Argos system... spoofing ID codes
[17:58] <Laurenceb_> apparently i never said that
[17:59] <fsphil> sorry that was me spoofing your nick
[17:59] <LeoBodnar> it's not really fair, good tech
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[18:00] <Laurenceb_> capture an endangered bird and grab its ID
[18:00] <DL7AD> good evening
[18:00] <fsphil> attach a tagged bird to the balloon
[18:01] <martinus> There may be laws against that.
[18:01] <x-f> girls just wanna have fun
[18:02] <martinus> http://xkcd.com/585/
[18:03] <x-f> :>
[18:04] <Laurenceb_> if CNES are operating the 401.6x band and they approve a device
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[18:04] <Laurenceb_> does that mean you are ok to use it on that band?
[18:04] <Laurenceb_> i dont get how RF licensing works
[18:04] <fsphil> and what country
[18:05] <fsphil> would be a bit of a limit if you could only operate in France :)
[18:05] <martinus> Kudos to x-f for the most amusing handle I've seen in quite some time.
[18:05] <x-f> it's a bit evil smiley
[18:05] Action: martinus uses whois to see who selected x-D
[18:06] <x-f> quick question, offtopic and just theoretically - could you use the 2.4 or 5.8 GHz ISM band to TX a video from a HAB?
[18:06] <gonzo_> could do, but in the UK you are limited to 10mW
[18:07] <gonzo_> wide bandwidths don't go far on low powers
[18:07] <fsphil> requires a rather large RX antenna
[18:07] <fsphil> 8mhz bandwidth vs 50hz :)
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[18:08] <x-f> thanks, i'm outside the UK but those regulations are probably the same
[18:09] <x-f> so "it's possible, but"
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[18:11] <fsphil> the nbtv stuff I've been playing with needs about 20khz, and I suspect even that will be a bit crap at 10mw
[18:12] <x-f> fsphil, how did i manage to miss your talk on NBTV?
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[18:12] <fsphil> x-f: it didn't happen. I broke the Pi I was gonna use
[18:12] <x-f> ah :/
[18:13] <x-f> will you do it the next year then, please? :)
[18:13] <fsphil> totally!
[18:13] <fsphil> I'll bring spares
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[18:14] <Laurenceb_> lolz
[18:14] <Laurenceb_> http://www.spectrumwiki.com/wiki/display.aspx?f=401620000&limit=on
[18:14] <Laurenceb_> CNES i breaking the allocation rules
[18:15] <Laurenceb_> "Mobile except aeronautical mobile"
[18:15] <Laurenceb_> cant fix it on birds
[18:15] <enkidu> DL7AD: connect to stream pls
[18:15] <chrisstubbs> Laurenceb, you can if they dont take off
[18:15] <chrisstubbs> then its the birds breaking the law
[18:15] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[18:15] <gonzo_> then it's the bird that is breaking the law
[18:15] <DL7AD> enkidu connected
[18:16] <gonzo_> pft, snap
[18:16] <fsphil> wonder if ofcom would accept that
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[18:16] <fsphil> "the bird just totally took off with my aprs beacon, then somehow it got tangled up to a balloon someone was launching"
[18:17] <x-f> "shit happens" (tm)
[18:17] <DL7AD> enkidu what can i hear on the stream? anything special?
[18:18] <enkidu> I can hear beeps in ktown intervals, but no domex yet. I am afraid that we wont find it in a month
[18:19] <fsphil> I must start checking 434.500
[18:19] <DL7AD> enkidu yes that could be the case
[18:19] <fsphil> don't think it's likely to come my way unless it's gone around the hemisphere
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[18:20] <enkidu> fsphil: today I runned models again. It can be 12 km over pacific or still over Africa
[18:20] <DL7AD> hm.... yes. last prediction says that it is not flying close enough to chris
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[18:21] <enkidu> but these triple beeps were so promising
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[18:25] <fsphil> it is a steady beep
[18:25] <fsphil> and speeds up a bit before it starts transmitting telemetry
[18:25] <mikestir> is B11 back?
[18:26] <fsphil> sadly not
[18:26] <Laurenceb_> id say theres more luck of seeing B-12
[18:26] <enkidu> cannot hear it. We need to launch rescue balloon
[18:26] <mikestir> shame. sounded like you were describing it to someone
[18:26] <enkidu> B12 should be over US somewhere
[18:26] <fsphil> ah no, was describing how it should sound
[18:27] <mikestir> B-12 over US already? Wasn't that going to be about 7 weeks down the line?
[18:27] <enkidu> no, there was jet stream over himalaya and china
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[18:29] <LeoBodnar> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/15725_trj001.gif B-12
[18:30] <LeoBodnar> No UHF receivers anywhere in the US :-\
[18:30] <enkidu> storm chaser could help us
[18:31] <enkidu> they have nice radio equipment
[18:31] <fsphil> would be worth pinging the gpsl list
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[18:38] <KT5TK1> I can turn on my radio if B-11|2 are expected in the US
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[18:41] <Willdude123> Is there anyone french here who can help with my homework?
[18:41] <Willdude123> :)
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[18:51] <LeoBodnar> KT5TK1: B-12 is going North of you. Do you know any people in the western US with UHF gear?
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[19:32] <ramm25> 2A5< ?@825B
[19:32] <enkidu> zdrastwoj
[19:33] <ramm25> >, E>BL :B>-B> ?>=8<05B @CAA:89 O7K:!
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[19:33] <Laurenceb_> http://stratocat.com.ar/stratopedia/84.htm
[19:33] <Laurenceb_> its now the pros do it
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> ;how ? Laurenceb_
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> Argos
[19:34] <enkidu> panimaju kak panimaju :) diesiat liet bez jazyka
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> we need to get own sat
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> even tho it breaks ITU frequency allocations....
[19:34] <ramm25> enkidu, 0 BK >B:C40 @>4><?
[19:35] <enkidu> spod kaliningradstskovo oblasti
[19:36] <Laurenceb_> www.lmd.ens.fr/vasco/Pub/Aeroclipper_BAMS_preprint.pdf
[19:36] <ramm25> enkidu, A >AA88 7=0G8B. 0 A59G0A :C40 687=L 70=5A;0?
[19:37] <ramm25> Laurenceb_ NOT FOUND
[19:37] <enkidu> nu, ja z Polszy, spod samoi granicy
[19:38] <Laurenceb_> http://www.lmd.ens.fr/vasco/Pub/Aeroclipper_BAMS_preprint.pdf
[19:38] <ramm25> enkidu, ?>=OB=>, 7=0G8B >;LH0.
[19:39] <LeoBodnar> we can deploy retransmission buoys network from the ballons
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[19:40] <Laurenceb_> lol
[19:41] <LeoBodnar> big styrofoam things
[19:42] <enkidu> are you sure you want to deploy something, that will just ordinary float on surface?
[19:42] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: do you think you could do bpsk with the silabs pll?
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> no, it will proudly float on there
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> I can try :)
[19:43] <LeoBodnar> is it mpsk or just +-180 degrees?
[19:43] <mattbrejza> could you use a small 5 pin SOT mixer and a linear PA?
[19:43] <mattbrejza> more effort oc
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[19:43] <Laurenceb_> +-180
[19:43] <KT5TK1> LeoBodnar: Nigel would be the right guy, but I'm not sure if he is back from New Zealand: http://digitalnigel.com/wordpress/?page_id=1611
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[19:44] <ramm25_> enkidu, :>340 ?;0=8@C5BAO 70?CA: H0@8:0 A 20H59 AB@0=K? 5A;8 >= ?@875<;8BAO 345-B> =0 N35 C:@08=K, O <>3 1K 53> ?>8A:0BL.
[19:45] <KT5TK1> He is in Seattle WA
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[19:46] <ramm25> C <5=O 3;NG8B G0B
[19:47] <Laurenceb_> if you wanted to be clever it could use daylight to calculate approx position each day
[19:47] <mattbrejza> http://www.analog.com/en/rfif-components/mixersmultipliers/adl5350/products/product.html + http://www.analog.com/en/rfif-components/rfif-amplifiers/adl5320/products/product.html
[19:47] <Laurenceb_> then run satellite model to predict when to turn on the transmitter
[19:47] <LeoBodnar> hasn't somebody done it in 60's?
[19:47] <ramm25> enkidu, BK 5I5 BCB?
[19:47] <enkidu> :)
[19:47] <Laurenceb_> yeah theres daylight based bird trackers
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[19:48] <ramm25> enkidu, O A?@0H820;, ?;0=8@C5BAO ;8 70?CA: 87 20H59 AB@0=K?
[19:48] <ramm25> enkidu, C <5=O ?;>E> @01>B05B IRC
[19:48] <Laurenceb_> seems like 2Km CEP
[19:49] <malgar> is there a good website where to buy the hardware? in particular the radiometrix antenna
[19:49] <enkidu> ramm25, SP3OSJ ma szarika
[19:49] <LeoBodnar> ramm25 :0: A 0<8 A2O70BLAO 5A;8 2 0HC AB>@>=C H0@ ?>;5B8B? K 2 :0:>< 3>@>45 =0E>48B5AL?
[19:50] <enkidu> ale nie znaju, kogda
[19:50] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 8I8B5 <5=O ?> ramm25@ya.ru
[19:50] <LeoBodnar> ok
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/programs/im/satellite_gps_telemetry/wildlifetrackingtelementry.htm
[19:51] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 0 >B:C40 GB> G53>?
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[19:52] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, :AB0B8 O 2 45AA5
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> 87 UK, => ;5B0NB ?> 2A59 2@>?5
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> >B;8G=>
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> =0< =C65= B0< G5;>25: :)
[19:53] <ramm25> E>@>H>, O @04 AB0@0BLAO
[19:53] <enkidu> i to nie odin czielowiek ;)
[19:53] <LeoBodnar> so what do we do next then, Argos, satellites, radars or HF? :D
[19:53] <enkidu> VLF :P
[19:53] <enkidu> and use u-boot to track
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[19:54] <enkidu> that would be easy to find - use long wire directly into soundcard
[19:55] <enkidu> ramm25, a s Novosybirska masz kogo?
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> i doubt Argos would be fast
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> worth talking to CNES
[19:55] Nick change: Willdude123 -> BF3Will
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> it has the advantage that it might be feasible to use the 434mhz kit
[19:56] <LeoBodnar> I can only imagine how much bureaucracy this will involve...
[19:56] <Laurenceb_> have a 401mhz tuned antenni and reuse it for 434 based on geofence
[19:56] <ramm25> A =>2>A818@A:0.... =C6=> ?>4C<0BL, 2@>45 1K; 7=0:><K9 @048>;N18B5;L 8 5I5 5ABL "@>4AB25==8:8"
[19:56] <Laurenceb_> thats what i meant by slow
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[19:57] <Laurenceb_> surprisingly it doesnt seem out of the question
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[19:57] <enkidu> vladivostok?
[19:58] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, O @048>;N18B5;L, 5ABL :>5 :0:0O 0??0@0BC@0. C =0A(C:@08=0, @>AA8O) 5ABL A09B: www.radioscanner.ru B0< 5ABL B5<0 A C?><8=0=85< B@5:5@0, O >BBC40 20A 8 =0H5;.
[19:58] <LeoBodnar> Si446x would do 401 MHz with vigour
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[19:58] <Laurenceb_> arggg
[19:59] <Laurenceb_> you have to pay $3000 for an account
[19:59] <Laurenceb_> rage
[19:59] <ramm25> enkidu, A =>2>A818@A:0.... =C6=> ?>4C<0BL, 2@>45 1K; 7=0:><K9 @048>;N18B5;L 8 5I5 5ABL "@>4AB25==8:8"
[19:59] <LeoBodnar> 0 >B;8G=>, A>18@05<AO 70?CA:0BL 5I5 H0@K 2 1;860H85 ?0@C =545;L :)
[19:59] <LeoBodnar> Pay 3k just to open it!?
[19:59] <Laurenceb_> yup
[19:59] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, B0< A;CH0B5;59 =015@5BAO AB>;L:>.... GB> =5 E20B8B H0@8:>2
[20:00] <LeoBodnar> To track snails and squirrels?
[20:00] <LeoBodnar> ;>2;N 20A =0 A;>25 :)
[20:00] <Laurenceb_> then you get a 28bit ID code to use with your tags
[20:00] <Laurenceb_> this is crying out to be hacked :P
[20:00] <LeoBodnar> THis is like $100/bit
[20:00] <Laurenceb_> im suprised the mafia hasnt done it
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> I can only afford to buy a nibble
[20:01] <enkidu> ramm25: nu, ja budu spat', utrom rabota
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> good night enkidu
[20:01] <ramm25> enkidu, E>@>H>, 4> =>2KE 2AB@5GL!
[20:01] <Laurenceb_> apparently theres a UK Argos co-operative...
[20:02] <Laurenceb_> i cant find any website
[20:02] <LeoBodnar> ramm25: >1O70B5;L=> A2O6CAL A 0<8 :0: B>;L:> GB>-B> ?>;5B8B 2 0HC AB>@>=C!
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[20:03] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, E>@>H>! http://www.radioscanner.ru/forum/topic44799-2.html
[20:04] <LeoBodnar> >B;8G=> A?0A81>!
[20:04] <Laurenceb_> lol
[20:04] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, ?>60;C9AB0
[20:05] <Laurenceb_> "Marine Turtle Research Group: University of Exeter"
[20:05] <Laurenceb_> apparently they are the guys
[20:05] <LeoBodnar> What, selling $3k trackers?
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[20:05] <Laurenceb_> no, owning lots of accounts and letting you use them.. if you are from UK
[20:06] <LeoBodnar> It sounds a dodgy idea, I guess failure rate on these trackers is >50%
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[20:06] <Laurenceb_> aiui you can reuse the account code
[20:06] <LeoBodnar> Oh, don't we all suddenly love turtles? :D
[20:06] <Laurenceb_> can't find the full ruses anywhere
[20:06] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[20:06] <Laurenceb_> *rules
[20:07] <Laurenceb_> i think theres a limit based on total data throughput for each ID code
[20:07] <Laurenceb_> so i guess you "rent" an ID from them and pay per bit
[20:08] <LeoBodnar> Sounds like mobile phone industry in 80's
[20:08] <Laurenceb_> hehe
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[20:10] <Laurenceb_> http://www.seaturtle.org.uk/tracking/STAT_biologging2.pdf
[20:10] <Laurenceb_> lol page 8
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[20:10] <Laurenceb_> our expensive nibbles are safe
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[20:12] <LeoBodnar> platform = tracker, outreach = talking
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> haha
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[20:16] <Laurenceb_> i guess its a case of talking to someone to see how practical this is
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> i see the sea turtle project seems to involve a ton of data
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[20:17] <LeoBodnar> Butane is still in the freezer Laurenceb_ :D
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> haha
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> yeah maybe you should ignore my ideas sometimes
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> looks like thats not needed
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> extra lift + higher cruise solves the problems
[20:18] <LeoBodnar> It was a nice concept, shame B1? were so good
[20:20] <LeoBodnar> Considering tracker is physically small would 1/4 wave GP or dipole be significantly different if TX is matched to antenna input impedance?
[20:20] <LeoBodnar> They have prtty much identical radiation pattern in free space
[20:21] <LeoBodnar> (thinking about 2m APRS)
[20:21] <enkidu> cannot sleep... 1/4 wave GP has more leaves of radiation than half wave dipole
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> i thought 1/4 wave has slightly higher gain?
[20:21] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 0 O 286C 2K 5ABL =0 vhfdx
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:22] <KT5TK1> I normally use a l/4 dipole for 2m APRS
[20:22] <KT5TK1> actually 2x l/4
[20:22] <LeoBodnar> O ?KB0;AO 70@538AB@8@>20BLAO =0 @048>A:0==5@5 => <5=O >B@078;8 B: O =0?8A0; >4=> 8 B> 65 2 ?>;5 C2;5G5=8O 8 @01>B0 :D
[20:23] <KT5TK1> The radials are to long for a 2m gp
[20:23] <KT5TK1> to be stable
[20:23] <LeoBodnar> I can do radials KT5TK1 if needs be
[20:23] <enkidu> KT5TK1: fishing lines can stabilise it
[20:24] <KT5TK1> I also tried a 2 x l3/4 dipole which has an interesting radiation pattern
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[20:24] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 40, B0< 5ABL =5:>B>@K9 D59A-:>=B@>;L. 5402=> 1K;8 A>1KB8O, A2O70==K5 A ?@>?0659 A0<>;5B0 -2 =0 #@0;5, ?>A;5 MB>3> CA8;8;8 :>=B@>;L =04 @538AB@0F859.
[20:24] <LeoBodnar> asymmetrical dipole?
[20:25] <KT5TK1> no, about 1.5 metres on each side
[20:25] <LeoBodnar> >3> 0 MB> :>340 A<A-:0 ?@8H;0 G5@57 =5A:>;L:> =545;L?
[20:25] <LeoBodnar> it has a squashed diagram, doesn't it?
[20:26] <LeoBodnar> few squashed lobes?
[20:26] <KT5TK1> Yes, it kind of prefers the horizont
[20:26] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, vhfdx =5 A>2A5< B>B A09B 4;O ?>4>1=K9 ?@>5:B>2, CQHAM B>65 =5 B>, 0 @048>A:0==5@ B>, GB> =04>. C <5=O 5ABL 7=0:><K9 <>45@0B>@, O <>3C =0?8A0BL 5<C 8 MB> <>65B CA:>@8BL ?@>F5AA @538AB@0F88, 5A;8 20< MB> 8=B5@5A=>.
[20:27] <KT5TK1> but in practice not much difference to a halw wave dipole
[20:27] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: tinfoil GP could be nice too - it would reflect radar waves so we could track payload on meteo radars
[20:27] <KT5TK1> mind the weight and shearing forces by wind
[20:28] <enkidu> KT5TK1: radiosondes are using it
[20:28] <enkidu> (sometimes)
[20:28] <KT5TK1> But they're not on a foil balloon
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> > :>=5G=>! ?>60;C9AB0! 8 8;8 ?5@5=018@C @538AB@0F8N 8;8 5A;8 <>6=> ?CABL @07@5H0B AB0@CN <>5 5<59; 1K; Leo Bodnar <lbodnar@dsl.pipex.com>
[20:29] <KT5TK1> here we have much tighter weight restrictions
[20:29] <enkidu> they are not, right. I have weight restriction of about 600 grams
[20:29] <enkidu> tinfoil GP wouldnt be a problem
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> maybe sparse mesh?
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> or aluminised mylar
[20:30] <enkidu> mesh could be actualy heavier
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[20:30] <enkidu> aluminised mylar - good choice. more wind resistive
[20:30] <KT5TK1> It can be quite stormy in the jet stream
[20:31] <enkidu> balloon will follow stream anyways
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> short question to everyone, who of you, besides dave flew hydrogen?
[20:31] <KT5TK1> A simple wire does the job. No GP needed
[20:31] <fsphil> it's on my todo list :)
[20:32] <enkidu> I think of using it rather as radar reflector ocasionally antenna element
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> Upu did
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> RocketBoy did
[20:33] <enkidu> I think we could run simulation on some patterns that cun turn into antenna.
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> oh Monde whatever
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> forgot his name
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> the current record holder
[20:33] <KT5TK1> My first balloon in 1992 was also hydrogen
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> CNSP fly hydrogen
[20:34] <KT5TK1> We transported it inflated in a car
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[20:34] <enkidu> NASA made wire antenna that has very nice radiation pattern - half spheric
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> KT5TK1, ohh :)
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, are you there?
[20:34] <fsphil> evening KT5TK1. are you still this side of the pond?
[20:34] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 4>1@>
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> A?0A81> ramm25 !
[20:34] <KT5TK1> I'm back in Houston
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[20:35] <KT5TK1> We did the H2 balloon for a wedding (with a rdf tracker)
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[20:36] <KT5TK1> The balloon didn't explode, however the marriage did. A few years later...
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> oh :(
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> so H2 is easy to handle?
[20:37] <KT5TK1> Yes, as long as it's not related to a wedding ;)
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[20:37] <fsphil> just be careful not to mix it with air
[20:38] <mfa298> just don't call the balloon Hindenburg
[20:38] <KT5TK1> With H2 you should be careful, but it's doable
[20:38] <fsphil> hehe, and paint it with a flammable paint
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[20:38] <LeoBodnar> I wonder if this coherent packet decoding can be applied to APRS reception from a balloon. Because of fixed structure this is ideal
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> but APRS nodes cant have their firmware upgraded
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:39] <enkidu> actually there still exist one hangar used to keep Hindenburg
[20:39] <fsphil> also it's APRS
[20:39] <fsphil> if you're going to go to that effort .. use something better than APRS :)
[20:39] <LeoBodnar> I have a split attitude towards it
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> does anyone want to email the team at Exter?
[20:40] <LeoBodnar> I'd love to do something HF based
[20:40] <LeoBodnar> You do!
[20:40] <LeoBodnar> :D
[20:40] <fsphil> there is a 300 baud APRS frequency on HF
[20:40] <Laurenceb_> ok ill email tomorrow during work hours
[20:40] <fsphil> and a fair few RX stations already
[20:40] <Laurenceb_> looks more professional
[20:40] <fsphil> also uses FSK rather than AFSK
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[20:41] <LeoBodnar> Lol. When I unpack a patch that has file creation time of 03:55AM I usually skip said patch.
[20:41] <KT5TK1> APRS is only interesting because of the worldwide receive infrastructure. A modern tracker should be able to transmit a good narrow band mode and additionally APRS
[20:41] <fsphil> hah, 4am is when I do my best code
[20:41] <fsphil> assuming I can get past 1am
[20:42] <KT5TK1> fsphil: did you get the Pecan to work?
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[20:42] <LeoBodnar> How precise is the requirement for freq stability on HF APRS ?
[20:43] <KT5TK1> Much more relaxed than other modes
[20:43] <fsphil> not powered it up yet KT5TK1, the weather had been too bad to even think about launching it
[20:43] <KT5TK1> +/- 5 KHz or so
[20:43] <fsphil> was taking a closer look at it though. it's a great board
[20:43] <fsphil> love the gps antenna
[20:43] <KT5TK1> The wire? :)
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> Oh, this is so wide
[20:44] <fsphil> yep!. took me a moment to realise what it was for
[20:44] <KT5TK1> The wire works actually better than the chip antenna for me
[20:44] <fsphil> thought I'd broke a radial
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> And for me too!
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> It's probably a dipole fsphil
[20:45] <LeoBodnar> Haven't seen it close
[20:45] <LeoBodnar> Is it a dipole KT5TK1 ?
[20:45] <KT5TK1> Yes, a l/4 stub
[20:45] <LeoBodnar> :) http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-5/Images/3.jpg
[20:46] <DL7AD> he KT5TK1 good evening. are you still in germany or did you already flew back to america?
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> Best and simplest GPS antenna I had
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> this is why APRS is lame
[20:46] <KT5TK1> I arrived in Houston last night
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> really wide FM
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> AFSK bleh
[20:46] <fsphil> yea, it's just wasting energy
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> so 70's
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> remove the GPS, flip in upside down and brute force Argos :P
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> haxor their server :P
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> lol why upside down? GP radioation pattern is symmetrical in open space
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> i dont get why the south American cartels havent done this already
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> ok
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> Maybe they are the main users
[20:48] <Laurenceb_> perfect for drugs info upload
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> turtles are working hard
[20:48] <adamgreig> apparently they all use the US military relay sats
[20:48] <Laurenceb_> i guess it kind of gives away their position in the process tho
[20:48] <Laurenceb_> haha
[20:48] <Laurenceb_> ah yeah
[20:48] <adamgreig> http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2009/04/fleetcom?currentPage=all
[20:48] <KT5TK1> Don't they have their own sats yet?
[20:49] <Laurenceb_> *tinfoil hat* maybe the US military _provided_ the sats
[20:49] <adamgreig> lol
[20:49] <adamgreig> tinfoil hats are such a weird idea
[20:49] <LeoBodnar> so ironic...
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> Faraday overcoat
[20:50] <adamgreig> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TinFoilHat002.jpg
[20:50] <adamgreig> may be doing it wrong
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> There are radiation sidolobes
[20:52] <LeoBodnar> "Man wearing a tin foil (aluminum) hat." This statement contains contradiction.
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> I have question re UK ham license rules (preparing for exams.) From one side transmitting coded information on ham bands is illegal. From the other hand remote controlled transmitter has to have secure link on the ham bands. How does it tie up?
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[20:55] <LeoBodnar> Secure link = others should not be able to use it -> encrypted/coded
[20:55] <adamgreig> well I mean
[20:55] <adamgreig> you could sign it and not encrypt it
[20:55] <adamgreig> so the contents of the message are plain but it's authenticated
[20:56] <mfa298> I can't remember exactly what's in the regs but it might be that it's secure in terms of being able to shut it down quickly
[20:56] <adamgreig> but I believe there are some additional caveats or something
[20:56] <mfa298> I think there's also bits about controlling a station via the internet (although that might be full only)
[20:56] <LeoBodnar> The idea is that transmitter can be remotely controlled but others should not be able to use it through remote link
[20:57] <KT5TK1> Telecontrol is simply an exception to the rule.
[20:57] <LeoBodnar> The reg is the remote link MUST be over ham band
[20:57] <mfa298> if remote link == network/internet then having security on the network/internet side isn't a problem
[20:57] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 0 4;O G53> 2K 70?CA:05B5 H0@8:8? MB> =0CG=K9 ?@>5:B 8;8 4;O A0<>@0728B8O?
[20:58] <adamgreig> the link may be over internet for full license
[20:58] <LeoBodnar> No. one of the fail questions is a) control via internet
[20:58] <LeoBodnar> ramm25: 4;O A51O, ?@>AB> 8=B5@5A=> :) M;5:B@>=8:0 8 ?@8@>40 2 >4=><
[20:58] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: for what class?
[20:58] <adamgreig> foundation and intermediate may only use ham bands
[20:58] <adamgreig> full may use any link
[20:58] <LeoBodnar> intermediate
[20:58] <adamgreig> right, there you go
[20:58] <mfa298> control via the internet might be for full only
[20:58] <adamgreig> do you have the full terms?
[20:59] <adamgreig> https://randomskk.net/u/u/amateur-terms.pdf is the full set
[20:59] <adamgreig> uhm
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[20:59] <adamgreig> https://randomskk.net/u/amateur-terms.pdf
[20:59] <adamgreig> section 10 deals with unattended operation
[20:59] <LeoBodnar> I can't understand how private remote control link over ham band does not violate "no secret code" rule
[20:59] <mfa298> they might also be considering that secure means having some dtmf tones to authenticate (so not really that secure if someone hears what you send)
[20:59] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: the no secret code is 11(2)
[21:00] <adamgreig> that says you can't encrypt _for the purpose of rendering the message unintelligible to other radio spectrum users_
[21:00] <adamgreig> but for instance would allow cryptographic signatures
[21:00] <adamgreig> so you can verify that only you may control the radio, but anyone may see what controls you send it, for isntance
[21:00] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, OA=>. O C65 ?8A0; BCB, 2845;8 2K 8;8 =5B, O @01>B0N =0 702>45 =0 CAB0=>2:5 ?> ?@>872>4AB2C 2>4>@>40. 70?CA:0; <=>3> @07 <CA>@=K5 :C;L:8 A 2878B:0<8, A> A25B>48>40<8. 10;>2AB2> :>@>G5. ?5@540BG8: B>;L:> 2>B A59G0A 4>4C<0;AO.
[21:00] <adamgreig> but I mean, if you were just operating the radio as a kind of repeater, it's less clear
[21:01] <adamgreig> in practice I don't think it matters too much :P
[21:02] <LeoBodnar> 000! :;0A=> :0: :) O B>;L:> B@8 <5AOF0 MB8< 70=8<0NAL
[21:03] <LeoBodnar> Ok, cheers. Interesting that remote control clause actually refers to no secret message rule: 10(4) Any communication links4 used to control the Radio Equipment or to carry Messages to or from the Radio Equipment in accordance with Clause 10(2) must be adequately secure so as to ensure compliance with Clause 3 of this Licence. Any security measures must be consistent with Clause 11(2) of this Licence.
[21:03] <LeoBodnar> 11(2) is "no secret code"
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[21:03] <mfa298> I think one of the key parts is the 500mW PEP meaning that remote control links are likely to be fairly short range.
[21:04] <adamgreig> it isn't "no secret code", it's no encryption so as to render message unintelligible
[21:04] <adamgreig> mfa298: that too. though "adaquately secure"..
[21:04] <mfa298> I suspect they're thinking of things like an option with some of the kenwood rigs where you can use a handheld radio on 2m fm to control a bigger radio as a hf reciever
[21:04] <adamgreig> yea
[21:04] <adamgreig> but that's not secure at all :P
[21:04] <adamgreig> I think the idea of security may be at odds with the typical security community concept
[21:05] <LeoBodnar> So in theory I can just broadcast some random numbers at 500mW pep and then claim I was trying to control a remote transmitter?
[21:05] <adamgreig> well I mean
[21:05] <adamgreig> intent matters a lot
[21:05] <adamgreig> but no
[21:05] <adamgreig> that's not what I said at all
[21:05] <adamgreig> that would be rendering the message unintelligible
[21:05] <adamgreig> signing the message means you transmit the message in cleartext and transmit a small signature that verifies you sent it
[21:06] <adamgreig> which I think would comply with 11(b)
[21:06] <adamgreig> anyone can see what you attempted to do, but no one else may control the radio
[21:06] <adamgreig> but like, could you transmit a spreading code? does that count as encryption? if it's long enough no one will be able to get your signal
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> Intelligibility is in the eye of beholder.
[21:07] <adamgreig> so intent matters - if you are testing a new radio mode, maybe you've published it on the internet, maybe you identify in morse beforehand
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> I'm sorry gov, I din't know you can't decode RSA on the fly.
[21:08] <adamgreig> in principle I agree, I think the license should either allow a lot more interesting use of the spectrum or hams shouldn't get anything like as much bandwidth
[21:08] <adamgreig> but there you go
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[21:08] <LeoBodnar> Yeah, a bit of a mess but good intent and some due diligence probably resolve any misunderstanding
[21:08] <adamgreig> also in practice - no one is likely to detect a spreading code anyway ;)
[21:08] <adamgreig> so it's all a bit messy
[21:08] <adamgreig> silly license
[21:08] <adamgreig> I bet it bugs ofcom no end
[21:09] <enkidu> remember - dont make secrets to government
[21:10] <LeoBodnar> Is not reporting a crime a crime in itself?
[21:10] <mfa298> I think the bits in 10(4) about securing communications is much broader than remotely controlling a transciever 10(6)
[21:11] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: you dont have to report yourself
[21:11] <ramm25> sure
[21:11] <mfa298> so 10(4) might also include not having your aprs station running on a machine with publicly accessibly vnc with no authentication
[21:11] <LeoBodnar> This nicely takes care of recursive no-reporting of your own non-reporting!
[21:11] <adamgreig> mfa298: interesting interpretation
[21:11] <adamgreig> it says to or from the radio equipment
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[21:12] <enkidu> I need casing for really simple project. and cannot find anything suitable ;/
[21:12] <adamgreig> so maybe websdr would be a violation too
[21:12] <mfa298> that's based on part of 10(4) talking about beacons etc.
[21:12] <LeoBodnar> enkidu: farnell?
[21:13] <ramm25> enkidu - styrofoam
[21:13] <enkidu> ramm25: it will be ground based. stage equipment
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[21:13] <Laurenceb_> adamgreig: if CNES run the Agros system on 401MHz, and they say they are happy with some custom system
[21:13] Action: mfa298 hates trying to interperate the license terms, half of it seems to come down to interperation
[21:13] <Laurenceb_> does that mean you are free to use it on 401MHz?
[21:13] <LeoBodnar> How big is the box enkidu ?
[21:14] <adamgreig> mfa298: indeed, it seems weirdly poorly constructed
[21:14] <ramm25> enkidu 0 GB> A>1AB25==> 70 ?@>5:B?
[21:14] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: as in, licensed to use the frequencies?
[21:14] <adamgreig> not sure..
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> with the approved hardware
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> yeah its confusing
[21:14] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: device is 30 mm tall, 58 mm wide and 44 mm deep
[21:15] <LeoBodnar> O ;N1;N 2>B MB8 http://www.hammondmfg.com/1455.htm
[21:15] <enkidu> ramm25: interfejs DMX
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> adamgreig: apparently they are happy to certify uni projects
[21:15] <mfa298> If I was really bothered I'd dig out some really old license terms and see what they say, but I think Hot Chocolage might be a better idea
[21:15] <LeoBodnar> Farnell sells them and they have slots for PCB
[21:16] <mfa298> (really old being late 90's - there's probably people with older license terms)
[21:16] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: interesting
[21:16] <ramm25> enkidu, 5B> 5A;8 =5 >H810NAL A2O70=> A> AF5=8G5A:8< >1>@C4>20=85<?
[21:16] <LeoBodnar> IRC must have been designed by a woman
[21:16] <adamgreig> wonder if CUSF could get something then
[21:16] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: this is what I will use. actually I wanted fischer case with rubber elemennts
[21:16] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: why?
[21:16] <LeoBodnar> How on earth you can have 3 conversations at once and keep an eye on another 4
[21:17] <adamgreig> and that's just in one channel ;)
[21:17] <enkidu> ramm25: da
[21:17] <enkidu> multitasking FTW!
[21:18] <mfa298> there have been a few times recently I've considered getting one of the auto colour scripts for irssi to try and help work out who's saying what
[21:18] <adamgreig> do! sooo good.
[21:18] <mfa298> half the time I just ignore the nicks
[21:18] <adamgreig> I mean I stopped using irssi for weechat a long while ago
[21:18] <adamgreig> but colour is super useful
[21:18] <adamgreig> except it does add confusion when someone changes colour or two people have the same colour and nick length
[21:18] <mfa298> I've got colour on certain people
[21:18] <adamgreig> really I feel it should work so the same nick length never gives the same colour
[21:18] <enkidu> I am using irssi as I can run it in screen session even on remote server
[21:18] <LeoBodnar> You need to stop concentrating and slip into a Zen-like state of mind
[21:18] <adamgreig> enkidu: yes, weechat is also running in a tmux (like screen but better) session on my server
[21:19] <enkidu> tl;dr: I will not close it accidentally
[21:19] <adamgreig> just unlike irssi it's not a horrible monstrosity of perl crap
[21:19] <mfa298> enkidu: irssi and screen is a popular combo (I do the same)
[21:19] <adamgreig> tmux is better than screen >_>
[21:19] <LeoBodnar> What is the sound of one finger typing?
[21:19] <adamgreig> incidentally weechat is better than irssi but that's a harder one to convince people of
[21:20] <enkidu> adamgreig: tmux over rs232?
[21:20] <adamgreig> hmm, no, ssh
[21:20] <adamgreig> an rs232 link to my server would be a bit extreme
[21:20] <mfa298> screen works on all the OS'es I use - not looked for tmux on Solaris yet
[21:20] Action: mfa298 digs out the SGI
[21:20] <enkidu> I have RS as failover
[21:20] <adamgreig> probably need at least rs-485
[21:20] <adamgreig> my server is some way away :P
[21:21] <enkidu> I got even RS-422 links :P
[21:21] <LeoBodnar> KT5TK1: do you have Sven's email - he went offline and I need to forward him an email from websdr creator
[21:21] <LeoBodnar> ?
[21:22] <mfa298> I'm quite happy with perl stuff - languages that are designed for writing unreadable code are great :D
[21:22] <enkidu> mfa298: obfuscated c competition is waiting for you
[21:23] <LeoBodnar> FORTRAN IV
[21:23] <mfa298> enkidu: I know someone who did fairly well in the obfuscated perl contest
[21:23] <enkidu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest
[21:27] Action: Laurenceb_ read that as FORTRAN TV
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> what an exciting channel
[21:27] <enkidu> "To keep things simple, I have avoided the C preprocessor and tricky statements such as "if", "for", "do", "while", "switch", and "goto""
[21:27] <mfa298> This was written by one of the sysadmins when I was at Uni. I can still remember him showing it off to us as he write it. http://totl.net/PerlContest/
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> haha
[21:27] <enkidu> I would have to be really stoned and on Ballmer's curve to create such thing
[21:27] <LeoBodnar> An example is the world's shortest self-reproducing program. The entry was a program zero bytes in length that if run printed zero bytes to the screen (simply an empty file). lol
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[21:28] <mfa298> I think that's the sort of code that makes people love and hate perl at the same time.
[21:29] <adamgreig> or just hate ;)
[21:30] <mfa298> these are the same guys who managed to get into various media with the "Spud Powered weebserver" http://totl.net/Spud/ (it wasn't really powered by potatoes)
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[21:31] <adamgreig> evening eroomde
[21:31] <adamgreig> _
[21:33] <LeoBodnar> Hey, I have realised that I have not heard anything about Kevin Mitnick for the last 20 years.
[21:34] <LeoBodnar> DL7AD: I got an email from websdr cretors
[21:34] <LeoBodnar> creators even
[21:34] <mfa298> adamgreig: hopefully you've not had to use a system based on ePrints yet, it's from the same guy as the evil, evil perl code.
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[21:36] <adamgreig> haha oh good
[21:36] <adamgreig> not had the pleasure yet
[21:36] <eroomde_> yo adamgreig
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[21:37] <LeoBodnar> I have to ask: what is perl, is it python?
[21:37] <mfa298> I think the real hatred of ePrints is from the people who have to install it on servers as an enterprise level system
[21:38] <mfa298> perl is another scripting language like python but much older.
[21:38] <mfa298> I think mostly used by system administrators
[21:38] <ramm25> Has anyone tried communicate through SATCOM?
[21:38] <mfa298> half of which probably do have the Beard and Sandals
[21:39] <LeoBodnar> Was there life after bash and awk?
[21:40] <LeoBodnar> Is SATCOM the US satellite that Brazilians are using?
[21:40] <mfa298> there's a lot of things in perl that are very similar to sed/awk
[21:40] <enkidu> LeoBodnar, it was. They called it "haskell"
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> http://www.argos-system.org/files/pmedia/public/r362_9_id_number_request.pdf
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> lol tickbox for kalman filtering
[21:40] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 40, B>B A0<K9. =04 52@>?>9 B>65 5ABL
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> that'd look funny in a bank statement
[21:41] <LeoBodnar> AB@5<=> =5<=>3> :)
[21:41] <LeoBodnar> Why English version wouldn't use term "demand" instead of "request" ? lol
[21:42] <DL7AD_> got your mail LeoBodnar. did you get the software?
[21:42] <LeoBodnar> no, that's all I had so far
[21:42] <DL7AD_> LeoBodnar i dont think he has a good internet connection. but we could try
[21:43] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[21:43] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 70B> 3;>10;L=>)))
[21:43] Nick change: DL7AD_ -> DL7AD
[21:44] <enkidu> okay, now for real I am off. cya. do swidania
[21:44] <ramm25> enkidu 4> A2840=8O
[21:45] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, :AB0B8, 2K A;KE0;8 ?@> ?@>5:B FishPi?
[21:45] <LeoBodnar> 3K, ?>A;CH0BL <>6=> 0 2>B ?5@54020BL :0:-B> AB@0H=>20B> :)
[21:45] <LeoBodnar> -"> WSPR =0 RaspberyPi?
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar is russian?
[21:46] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, =C =025@=>5, :>@>G5 15A?8;>B=K9 :0B5@ G5@57 >:50=.
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> to everyone
[21:46] <LeoBodnar> yeah a bit
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> what is the current RX distance record with NTX2?
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, I think Upu got that on B-11 on the bay of biscay?
[21:47] <LeoBodnar> Sadly it wasn't NTX2 :D
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> hmm
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> then it was Brian I think on Apex ALPHA
[21:48] <LeoBodnar> Same power though
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:48] <LeoBodnar> it was just beeping
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> *scratching head*
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:48] <adamgreig> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:uk_records#radio_range_10mw_50_baud
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[21:49] <adamgreig> 800km, lol
[21:49] <LeoBodnar> Somebody posted a link yesterday to the transatlantic robotic vessel, what was it?
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[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> there is a german guy claiming he made an altitude of 45000 m, but has almost no tech details
[21:50] <eroomde_> no
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> shall I ask him for a GPS confirmation?
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> lol
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> "i got to 45Km, honest"
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> http://gotransat.com/
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> altitude *= M_PI ;
[21:51] <ramm25> o
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[21:52] <WillTablet> Hi
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> whoa
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> that boat is actually working
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> no way
[21:53] <WillTablet> Hi Laurenceb_
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> never saw that one coming
[21:53] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 40, =5 A:CG0NB @51OB0(AAK;:0)
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[21:54] <LeoBodnar> The big question "Will it crash into Portugal or not?"
[21:54] <LeoBodnar> It ignored all the en-route waypoints and navigates direct to the destination
[21:54] <LeoBodnar> 030 ?@8:>;L=K9 ?@>5:B!
[21:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> Pardon ?
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> Aga Prikolnyj Projekt
[21:55] <LeoBodnar> taking to Russian visitor here Geoff-G8DHE
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> something about a project
[21:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Rrright
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[21:56] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[21:56] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, 5ABL 4065 B@5:5@ http://gotransat.com/tracking/
[21:57] <WillTablet> My sister can read Cryllic script.
[21:57] <LeoBodnar> Oh, ham question again! Can I book advanced exam before passing the foundation/intermediate?
[21:57] <LeoBodnar> I am sitting foundation/intermediate on the 19th but last booking day for the next advanced is the 20th
[21:58] <LeoBodnar> A bit tight timing...
[21:58] <ramm25> B>G=> 1;8=, ?@O<> G5@57 ?>@BC30;8N ?>548B
[21:58] Action: WillTablet slaps zeusbot and tells him to learn Russian
[21:58] <LeoBodnar> 
[21:58] <LeoBodnar> :D
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[21:59] <ramm25> WillTablet, what can i do for you?
[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:00] <WillTablet> Huh?
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, btw
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> if someone will pick up B-11 or -12 again in western europe or so
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> do you think it qualifies for a circumnavigation?
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> big if there
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> seems unlikely
[22:01] <LeoBodnar> So does anybody remember if advanced exam booking need existing intermediate pass?
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> maybe if it was hydrogen filled
[22:01] <bertrik> is there any chance of it reaching europe again?
[22:01] <eroomde_> i believe so
[22:01] <eroomde_> re exam
[22:02] <mfa298> best person for an answer re exam is craag
[22:02] <LeoBodnar> Longest great circle distance is screwed big time (=0) lol
[22:02] <eroomde_> i think there is the gap
[22:03] <eroomde_> we did found and interned on the same day
[22:03] <eroomde_> but couldn't do advanced on the same day
[22:03] <eroomde_> had to wait about 4 week iirc
[22:03] <LeoBodnar> oh, will call RSGB tomorrow
[22:03] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: you can't
[22:03] <adamgreig> iirc
[22:04] <adamgreig> you can sit foundation and intermediate back to back
[22:04] <mfa298> I think you should have an answer as to pass/fail straight after the exams for foundation and intermediate although not sure if you have to wait for the rsgb to confirm before booking the advanced
[22:04] <adamgreig> but you must possess an intermediate before you can sit the full
[22:04] <LeoBodnar> But if I pass on 19th can I book on the 20th?
[22:04] <adamgreig> also the full exam is marked afterwards iirc
[22:04] <adamgreig> not immediately
[22:04] <LeoBodnar> I am talking about booking, not sitting it
[22:04] <adamgreig> yea
[22:04] <adamgreig> well
[22:04] <adamgreig> not sure - I think you have to _have the license_ to book the full
[22:04] <adamgreig> but you might only need to have the license to _sit_ the full
[22:04] <adamgreig> in which case you'd b ok
[22:04] <eroomde_> i believe that's the case
[22:05] <eroomde_> and the reason we could;t do them all back to back which i wanted to do
[22:05] <WillTablet> Hi eroomde_
[22:05] <adamgreig> eroomde_: yea
[22:05] <adamgreig> I did mine in approximately the shortest time period possible
[22:05] <LeoBodnar> yeah, results delay is not a problem, I just don't want to miss this turn
[22:05] <eroomde_> had to await a confirmed foundation before being able to book the advanced
[22:05] <adamgreig> did the foundation and intermediate practicals together one weekend
[22:05] <adamgreig> sat foundaton and intermediate exams the following week, same day, back to back
[22:05] <adamgreig> but it was a couple of weeks before I could then do the earliest available full
[22:05] <LeoBodnar> You don't need to have the license to sit the full
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[22:06] <LeoBodnar> just pass teh intermediate
[22:06] <adamgreig> you need to pass the intermediate but not have the intermediate license?
[22:06] <WillTablet> eroomde how can you do it straight after the foundation? Don't people do stuff in between licenses?
[22:06] <adamgreig> that wouldn't make sense or you could sit it right afterwards
[22:06] <adamgreig> since intermediate is marked on the spot
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[22:07] <adamgreig> shrug
[22:07] <adamgreig> it's been 4 years
[22:07] <mfa298> foundation and intermediate can be arranged for any date as well but advanced can only be done on set dates
[22:07] <adamgreig> best phone and ask
[22:07] <adamgreig> yea indeed
[22:08] <adamgreig> WillTablet: you can do the intermediate practical before sitting the foundation license
[22:08] <adamgreig> so you don't need to do anything in between the two
[22:08] <eroomde_> WillTablet: no
[22:08] <eroomde_> what would you need to do particularly?
[22:08] <adamgreig> in theory some people will not take them quite so aggressively
[22:09] <mfa298> i think the rsgb made a big thing ago about their convention and being able to do all three exams at the same time (which might suggest that you only need to have passed the intermediate, - or that it's one set of rules for them and another for everyone else)
[22:09] <WillTablet> IDK, use your license maybe?
[22:09] <adamgreig> but I guess first year cambridge students are like "more exams! yes! back to back!"
[22:09] <adamgreig> because that seemed to be the thing
[22:09] <eroomde_> i just wanted to be able to make my own equipment
[22:09] <WillTablet> Oh OK then
[22:09] <eroomde_> wasn't really interested in excessive song-and-dance in-between me and that
[22:09] <adamgreig> eroomde_: have you ever transmitted with radio equipment you made under your amateur license?
[22:09] <eroomde_> yep
[22:09] <WillTablet> Do you not make contacts or go on the air then?
[22:09] <adamgreig> cool. what did you do?
[22:09] <eroomde_> no voice to other hams
[22:10] <eroomde_> not*
[22:10] <adamgreig> lol
[22:10] <eroomde_> just hf data and uhf data
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[22:10] <adamgreig> with your own transceiver?
[22:10] <WillTablet> Fair enough
[22:10] <eroomde_> just tx
[22:10] <adamgreig> lol
[22:10] <WillTablet> I plan to talk to people
[22:10] <adamgreig> who needs to rx
[22:10] <mfa298> from memory you only have to make contacts for the foundation exame
[22:10] <eroomde_> exactly
[22:10] <eroomde_> i don't really want to talk to people
[22:10] <eroomde_> on the radio
[22:11] <adamgreig> I really don't want to talk to people on the radio
[22:11] <WillTablet> Is it weird that I'm getting a license to actually do ham radio stuff?
[22:11] <mfa298> the idea being that you can work through the exams at whatever speed suits you - some people do it quickly, some people take years
[22:11] <adamgreig> but I do wish the amateur license was more lenient in doing interesting radio things
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> is there an amateur radio irc channel?
[22:11] <adamgreig> lol
[22:11] <LeoBodnar> License is requested from Ofcom so you can have exam passed but license not issued
[22:11] <mfa298> Laurenceb_: ##hamradio
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> aha
[22:11] <WillTablet> Haha I'm too nervous to even talk to vatsim atc
[22:12] <mfa298> I think you need a registerd nick for it
[22:12] <eroomde_> i don't know who vatsim atc is
[22:12] <eroomde_> his name is unpronounceable
[22:12] <LeoBodnar> I think you only need to have intermediate exam passed to sit advanced, no need to get license if you are going straight for advanced
[22:12] <WillTablet> Vatsim is a flight sim network eroomde_
[22:12] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: oh cool, that's fine then
[22:12] <eroomde_> oh great
[22:12] <adamgreig> yea in retrospect I shouldn't have bothered getting my foundation and intermediate licenses
[22:12] <adamgreig> waste of a callsign really
[22:13] <mfa298> WillTablet: the idea is that there's a lot of stuff that you can do with an amateur radio license (expecially if you make it up to a full license) you don't atually have to talk to people
[22:13] <eroomde_> i heard people actually flight sim transatlantic flights in real time
[22:13] <adamgreig> mfa298: that's the idea, certainly
[22:13] <WillTablet> eroomde_ Yeah it really is awesome
[22:13] <eroomde_> i.e. sit there for 8 hours
[22:13] <WillTablet> IK, atc sometimes let people use time warp.
[22:13] <adamgreig> eroomde_: with the cockpits and VoIP radio to other planes/ATC etc too!
[22:13] <eroomde_> i would sooner shove a pencil up my nostril
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[22:13] <WillTablet> Haha
[22:13] <WillTablet> I'd do short flights
[22:14] <WillTablet> Like gatwick to glasgow in a C182
[22:14] <adamgreig> I'd turn autopilot on and get the wine
[22:14] <WillTablet> You still need to man it
[22:14] <adamgreig> I wonder what ATC would do if you were clearly drunk
[22:14] <adamgreig> oh pfft like hell you do
[22:14] <eroomde_> so at that point you're basically drinking while watching a screensaver
[22:14] <adamgreig> modern jetliner will fly itself no problem
[22:14] <adamgreig> eroomde_: I imagine I'd probably minimise the flight sim and do something else, too
[22:14] <WillTablet> In fact you need to man it even with AP
[22:15] <eroomde_> a strange exercise
[22:15] <adamgreig> WillTablet: what, in case someone realises you're not doing anything and you get fired?
[22:15] <WillTablet> You can't set it to fly your flight for you
[22:15] <adamgreig> just transmit to ATC "everything nominal" every two or three minutes
[22:15] <adamgreig> well why not >_>
[22:15] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:15] <Lunar_Lander> WillDuckworth, KITT on Knight Rider also didn't need Michael at all to drive
[22:15] <WillTablet> AP can hold heading, speed and altitude
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[22:15] <WillTablet> Thar's all
[22:16] <adamgreig> sounds like you need better autopilots
[22:16] <WillTablet> Well, and climb speed
[22:16] <eroomde_> ardupilot for example
[22:16] <adamgreig> oh god
[22:16] <adamgreig> I can see it now
[22:16] <LeoBodnar> Boredom Induced Unconsciousness simulator
[22:16] <adamgreig> you walk into the cockpit
[22:16] <adamgreig> both pilots are napping
[22:16] <adamgreig> on the console
[22:16] <adamgreig> a single ardupilot
[22:16] <adamgreig> a little ftdi board
[22:16] <WillTablet> Heh
[22:16] <adamgreig> usb cable runs into the dash
[22:17] <eroomde_> with bits of solid-core wire spliced onto cockpit controls
[22:17] <eroomde_> that keep falling out of the arduilot headers
[22:17] <eroomde_> in the grand arduino tradition
[22:17] <adamgreig> haha of course
[22:17] <eroomde_> maybe some electrical tape to keep them all in
[22:17] <WillTablet> The carenado c182's autopilot is crap, heading is fine but for altitude hold it climbs really slowly.
[22:17] <eroomde_> the pilots on an irc channel asking why it's not reliable
[22:18] <LeoBodnar> Flight engineer is playing tetris on FMC
[22:18] <adamgreig> great, now I'm gonna have nightmares
[22:18] <WillTablet> On at
[22:18] <adamgreig> ##arduino
[22:18] <adamgreig> well #arduino
[22:18] <eroomde_> and then complaining that proper cables and connectors are expensive
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[22:18] <eroomde_> and therefore you must provide them with a different answer
[22:18] <WillTablet> Even if you have alt hold of, you're restricted as to climb angle.
[22:18] <eroomde_> people who can't take advice&
[22:18] <WillTablet> *off
[22:19] <WillTablet> So I normally fly to near whatever altitude I'm supposed to be at then make ap do ut for me
[22:19] <WillTablet> *it
[22:19] <eroomde_> i have never understood that
[22:19] <LeoBodnar> I use Airbus A-310 autopilot console as a door stop.
[22:19] <eroomde_> noobie: 'what should i do?'
[22:19] <eroomde_> experiencedy: 'xyz'
[22:20] <eroomde_> noobie: 'OK I'm going to do abc'
[22:20] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: looks like the scout thing is pretty likely to hit portugal. shame it didn't follow waypoints..
[22:20] <eroomde_> noobie: 'but you must still help me when I inevitably cock-up abc'
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[22:21] <adamgreig> because pedagogy by imperative is the best way
[22:22] <LeoBodnar> I was flying circuits on my own and C-130 landed while I was on the downwind leg. ATC come in and said "please be advised that C-130 wake turbulence is estimated as 5 minutes or more"
[22:22] <LeoBodnar> I felt like screaming "Tell me WTF should I DO?"
[22:23] <LeoBodnar> I had like 10 hours flying time
[22:23] <LeoBodnar> It is funny now...
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[22:30] <eroomde_> pedagogy by volunteering is my way or the highway
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[22:34] <LeoBodnar> It's bedtime for me. Good night guys!
[22:34] <eroomde_> nn
[22:34] <eroomde_> me 2
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[22:35] <LeoBodnar> ramm25: A?>:>9=>9 =>G8!
[22:35] <ramm25> LeoBodnar? cgjrjqyjq yjxb /lhe;bot!
[22:35] <ramm25> LeoBodnar, A?>:>9=>9 =>G8, 4@C68I5!
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[22:37] <Laurenceb__> hmm looks like http://licensing.ofcom.org.uk/radiocommunication-licences/satellite-earth/earth-stations/TES/
[22:38] <Laurenceb__> would be required for Argos use
[22:38] <Laurenceb__> soooo complicated
[22:38] <adamgreig> uhm
[22:38] <adamgreig> yea I guess
[22:38] <adamgreig> "specified location" huh
[22:39] <Laurenceb__> they say "flyaway terminals"
[22:39] <adamgreig> not sure that is to be taken too literally :P
[22:39] <Laurenceb__> that fits the description of an Argos thingy
[22:39] <ramm25> okay, i'm go sleep. good night every body.
[22:39] <adamgreig> night
[22:39] <Laurenceb__> some of the argos documentation uses that terminology
[22:39] <Laurenceb__> cya
[22:39] <Laurenceb__> you trade convenience for paperwork it seems
[22:40] <adamgreig> lol
[22:40] <adamgreig> often the way
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[22:40] <adamgreig> legislation and paperwork begets further legislation and paperwork
[22:40] <adamgreig> I'm still glad we have license exemptions for 2.4GHz
[22:40] <adamgreig> imagine applying for a license to run your own wifi
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> the thing I like most about the Argos documentation. - the little blue pens
[22:41] <adamgreig> "ISM" doesn't mean what it used to really
[22:42] <Laurenceb__> thing is in ITU region 1 401 MHz is not for airborne use
[22:42] <Laurenceb__> yet CNES use it for just that
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[23:03] Nick change: MichaelC1 -> MichaelC
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[00:00] --- Wed Sep 18 2013