[00:00] <adamgreig> I mean there's only so far you can fuck up white noise - if it's still got a flat spectrum then...
[00:00] <LeoBodnar> What's -30dB for 16 bit samples?
[00:01] <LeoBodnar> Is it 1/2 = 3dB ?
[00:01] <adamgreig> 3dB is approximately half yea
[00:01] <LeoBodnar> So we are at 6 bits
[00:01] <adamgreig> but uhm
[00:01] <adamgreig> half power, not half voltage
[00:02] <LeoBodnar> Sound engineers are voltage usually so 6dB is 1/2?
[00:02] <adamgreig> 6dB is half amplitude ratio yea
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[00:03] <LeoBodnar> Plenty of bits left then
[00:03] <adamgreig> 16bit has 96dB dynamic range or so
[00:04] <LeoBodnar> Sounds about right 16*6=96
[00:05] <LeoBodnar> Does coherent demodulation require phase locked loop and local observer and all that?
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[00:06] <adamgreig> don't think you require a local observer
[00:06] <adamgreig> and a phase locked loop is just a typical way of doing it
[00:06] <adamgreig> but yes essentially
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[00:07] <adamgreig> it's where you track the input phase and tune your lo to match, generally
[00:07] <adamgreig> if you are demodulating without knowing the input phase (which you essentially are by using the two LOs?) then I don't think that counts as coherent
[00:07] <LeoBodnar> But at the moment you can pretty much assume I have it
[00:07] <adamgreig> well what happens if you only have the one LO
[00:07] <adamgreig> and get the phase correct
[00:07] <adamgreig> and then run the correlation?
[00:07] <adamgreig> you can cheat and do the phase by hand to see if it works
[00:08] <adamgreig> but if you do that you should basically be creating a local copy of the expected entire header and correlating it against the input data til it hits, right
[00:08] <adamgreig> I'm not sure you even need to get the phase right given as you run the correlation search to find it in the first place
[00:08] <LeoBodnar> I know my modem has 1000Hz bang on, and I know the position of the header with a single sample accuracy. But as soon as I add noise coherent detector falls over before non-coherent
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[00:10] <LeoBodnar> Yes, tried that
[00:11] <LeoBodnar> Added manual phase offset to line them up. So cosine accumulator produces zero on clean input signal.
[00:12] <adamgreig> right
[00:12] <adamgreig> and then use only the sine accumulator
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[00:12] <adamgreig> and it still drops out before the noncoherent?
[00:12] <LeoBodnar> yep
[00:12] Nick change: crash_18974_ -> crash_18974
[00:13] <LeoBodnar> Will check it again tomorrow. Something is screwed up there.
[00:14] <adamgreig> yea definitely
[00:14] <adamgreig> what precisely are you doing different between the coherent and the noncoherent?
[00:14] Action: fsphil notices the topic
[00:14] <adamgreig> I might whip up a prototype in my modulator and see if it replicates the same result
[00:14] <LeoBodnar> IN non-coherent I calculate the magnitude for each tone separately.
[00:15] <LeoBodnar> So if the TX would change the phase between tones say 180 degrees it won't affect the result.
[00:16] <LeoBodnar> But it would destroy the coherent result obviously
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[00:16] <adamgreig> why should it destroy the coherent result given as you're using an IQ LO to correlate?
[00:16] <adamgreig> it'd just swap to negative
[00:16] <adamgreig> and then you square it anyway
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[00:17] <LeoBodnar> in coherent if TX reverse the phase you start deducting while you were accumulating before.
[00:19] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> This sounds like it would be interesting if I was awake.
[00:20] <LeoBodnar> I meant if the transmitter had arbitrary phase jumps between tone changes it would not have affected the result in non-coherent detection in my case
[00:20] <LeoBodnar> Since each tone period gets its own accumulation period
[00:21] <LeoBodnar> So it's like ultra-fast locked LO
[00:23] <adamgreig> right
[00:23] <adamgreig> and then you add up the sum-of-squares for each tone?
[00:23] <adamgreig> vs adding up the sum of squares the whole header's worth
[00:23] <LeoBodnar> yes
[00:23] <adamgreig> and in each case you're trying it for every possible starting frequency at every possible sample into the file?
[00:23] <LeoBodnar> yes
[00:24] <LeoBodnar> and also for every possible modem centre freq
[00:24] <LeoBodnar> unless you cheat and know it beforehand
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[00:26] <LeoBodnar> Every possible sample is a bit extreme as each tone occupies 1024 samples. +- 16..32 samples don't kill the detection
[00:27] <adamgreig> sure, yea
[00:28] <LeoBodnar> Fo purists finding exact sample can be done by exhaustive check at say 128 steps and dichotomy after that to make it converge faster
[00:29] <LeoBodnar> Speed is not the issue at the moment.
[00:29] <adamgreig> yup
[00:31] <fsphil> we should declare that all strings start at the first frequency :)
[00:31] <adamgreig> and at 0 phase too would be nice ;)
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[00:34] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: so if the phase offset stays the same throughout the header
[00:34] <adamgreig> you would expect that at the correct start sample, some combination of your LOs overlaps exactly with your signal to be detected?
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> Are you caring at this point about doppler - or are you just doing proof of concept stuff
[00:35] <adamgreig> if you assume it's all in one of the LOs, say the phase offset happened to be 0, then you expect that one LO to perfectly recreate the target signal
[00:35] <adamgreig> this is just proof of concept at the moment I think?
[00:35] <DL7AD> blob
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[00:35] <LeoBodnar> Yes, or I can fudge the LOs so I is at 0 degrees phase to the signal and Q is at 90 degrees and it made no difference
[00:36] <adamgreig> right, but at that point you assume there's one sample offset where the I LO literally the same as your target signal except for amplitude
[00:36] <adamgreig> it would probably be worth dumping the LO and the input samples and viewing them graphically
[00:36] <adamgreig> it might become very obvious why the correlation is poor
[00:36] <adamgreig> alternatively
[00:37] <LeoBodnar> that's exactly what I have done and looked at them in excel charts
[00:37] <LeoBodnar> through all 16000 or whatever samples
[00:37] <adamgreig> it would be interesting to see the I and Q accumulators before you sum them, in the non coherent case (so you see the I and Q values for each symbol bin)
[00:37] <Darkside> excel...
[00:38] <adamgreig> ok, so what did the charts look like?
[00:38] <LeoBodnar> I have done this on a clean signal of course with noise you can'y see anything
[00:38] <adamgreig> was that I LO a perfect match for the input?
[00:38] <LeoBodnar> like copy of each other
[00:38] <LeoBodnar> yes
[00:38] <adamgreig> at the right phase and all?
[00:38] <LeoBodnar> yes throughout
[00:38] <LeoBodnar> as if I had generated input signal myslef with LO
[00:39] <adamgreig> huh. and even then, the correlation score for the whole header is 0?
[00:39] <adamgreig> well low, not a peak, whatever
[00:40] <adamgreig> that's pretty unexpected. I would be checking I hadn't messed up accumulating the correlation or something..
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[00:41] <LeoBodnar> No, correlation is 1.0 on a clean signal but deteriorates faster for coherent mode when noise level increases
[00:41] <LeoBodnar> Clean signal works beautifully for either coherent or not with 1.0 score (as expected)
[00:42] <LeoBodnar> I was tidying code to put online and got stuck with this madness
[00:42] <adamgreig> right
[00:42] <adamgreig> huh
[00:43] <adamgreig> I can see why you start questioning audacity's noise adding :P
[00:43] <LeoBodnar> :)
[00:43] <adamgreig> want me to generate some samples where I'm entirely confident that there's just 3dB more noise power in each sample?
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[00:44] <LeoBodnar> I need real world noise source :D like a buried diode or good old electronic valve
[00:45] <adamgreig> plenty of high quality entropy sources available ;)
[00:45] <LeoBodnar> Yes if you don't mind please
[00:45] <adamgreig> sure, one sec
[00:45] <adamgreig> check that this decodes OK first, it's the clean signal
[00:45] Action: SpeedEvil hisses at LeoBodnar.
[00:45] <adamgreig> https://randomskk.net/u/output_16000sps.wav
[00:45] <LeoBodnar> IS it white or pink SpeedEvil ?
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> Brown
[00:46] <LeoBodnar> :)
[00:50] <LeoBodnar> Checking, just a sec
[01:00] <adamgreig> https://randomskk.net/u/domex
[01:02] <adamgreig> uhm
[01:03] <LeoBodnar> Do you have a leading tone before you generate first "$" ?
[01:04] <adamgreig> no
[01:04] <adamgreig> it gets right on with it
[01:04] <adamgreig> should I?
[01:05] <adamgreig> (and if so, what tone? I thought domex didn't idle?)
[01:05] <LeoBodnar> Ah, could please stick any char in front of first "$"?
[01:05] <adamgreig> sure
[01:05] <adamgreig> another $? or would that be annoying
[01:05] <LeoBodnar> Anything, naother $ would work
[01:05] <adamgreig> actually I'll add SPACE to my alphabet and use that
[01:05] <adamgreig> since it's just 0
[01:05] <LeoBodnar> Yeah
[01:06] <LeoBodnar> I am just assuming in the code that header is following some other symbol
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[01:06] <adamgreig> https://randomskk.net/u/domex/signal_16000sps.wav
[01:06] <adamgreig> ok, that now has a space preceeding
[01:06] <adamgreig> and all the other files in that directory have the relevant SNR (or they are at the least correct relative to each other)
[01:06] <adamgreig> they have a power SNR ratio that is absolutely correct referenced to the signal power
[01:06] <adamgreig> as in, the energy divided by the time
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[01:09] <LeoBodnar> perfect, let me play with them now. Thanks for them
[01:10] <adamgreig> no problem. let me know how it goes
[01:10] <LeoBodnar> When I get it working I'd like a longer test strings
[01:11] <adamgreig> quite easy
[01:11] <adamgreig> I can generate a few thousand long totally randomly distributed string from the available alphabet
[01:12] <LeoBodnar> Let me get these working correctly first! :)
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[01:29] <LeoBodnar> Non-coherent decoder finds a header in -15dB file and coherent only in -3dB one. Something is royally screwed here
[01:29] <adamgreig> curious
[01:29] <adamgreig> definitely something weird there.
[01:30] <adamgreig> neither work below the -15dB one?
[01:31] <LeoBodnar> -15dB is the last I could detect the header in, let me play a bit more
[01:33] <LeoBodnar> Correction -12dB was the last one
[01:41] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[01:45] <LeoBodnar> OK, I am stuck in a potential well, tim for some sleep! :)
[01:45] <LeoBodnar> *time
[01:45] <adamgreig> hehe
[01:45] <adamgreig> nn
[01:45] <LeoBodnar> gn!
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[03:55] <DL7AD> .
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[04:10] <DL7AD> http://lantv.ds.pg.gda.pl:8080 streaming link from israel
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[04:23] <WillTablet> Anyone here? Just woke up after a nightmare about a series of terrorist attacks.
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[04:56] <enkidu> temporary problems
[04:56] <enkidu> ;/
[04:58] <WillTablet> Huh?
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[05:07] <niftylettuce> DL7AD: im listening to the stream, where is the video?
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[06:11] <DL7AD> yes i can also hear niftylettuce!
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[06:22] <DL7AD> http://lantv.ds.pg.gda.pl:8080
[06:22] <DL7AD> i can hear b-11 i think
[06:23] <x-f> yeah, suspicious 3-second beeps
[06:23] <DL7AD> are you try to track x-f?
[06:23] <x-f> i launched dl-fldigi, but there's nothing more so far, been listening for a few minutes
[06:24] <DL7AD> sent a mail to israel, but unfortunately he is not at home
[06:25] <x-f> B-11 beeps were stable on the waterfall, but these are floating around a few tens of Hz
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[06:26] <DL7AD> its transmitting several times 3 dots. but not trx
[06:26] <DL7AD> -ing
[06:28] <x-f> would be soooooo cool to have it back
[06:28] <DL7AD> yep
[06:28] <DL7AD> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-11/NOAA.gif this is the current prediction
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[06:55] <x-f> it is something else :/
[06:56] <DL1SGP> good morning x-f and all!
[06:56] <x-f> good morning, DL1SGP
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[08:26] <edmoore> jevout
[08:26] <DL1SGP> heh
[08:26] Action: DL1SGP claps
[08:26] <Maxell> ö
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[08:28] <edmoore> i tried
[08:28] <DL1SGP> yes
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[08:40] <DL1SGP> Boker Tov, Chris!
[08:40] <chris_4x1rf> morning!
[08:41] <chris_4x1rf> wondering if the streaming still works?
[08:41] <DL1SGP> it works rock solid, thanks for that!
[08:41] <chris_4x1rf> i'm not @home to check it
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[08:42] <DL1SGP> I am connected to it through the relay connection, guess Sven DL7AD told you already that we have just one connection to your stream and then relay that data to keep load minimized on your system
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[08:42] <chris_4x1rf> that's great
[08:42] <chris_4x1rf> yes I know
[08:43] <DL1SGP> so sven was listening all night, and I am on the day shift now, guess there are others monitoring as well :D
[08:43] <chris_4x1rf> so still no sign from B11 yet?
[08:43] <DL1SGP> unfortunately not
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[08:43] <DL1SGP> also I fear that the israeli air force might be a bit sensitive about uncommon radar reflections in 9000m altitude, but let's just hope :)
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[08:44] <chris_4x1rf> understood the prediction could be very wrong, it may very well be somewhere else
[08:44] <DL1SGP> indeed :)
[08:45] <chris_4x1rf> it's quite small but who kmows, maybe big enough for a blip on their screen...
[08:46] <DL1SGP> I would consider their equipment to be sensitive enough
[08:46] <chris_4x1rf> worth watching the news here you say :-))
[08:47] <chris_4x1rf> radio / TV...
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[08:47] <DL1SGP> hmm, not really, I bet they would consider it as "training" and not make a fuzz about it
[08:48] <DL1SGP> the balloon is not carrying any "Palestine" royality signs or signs of belonging to Lebanon/Jordania
[08:48] <DL1SGP> it is an entirely innocent party balloon :D
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[08:49] <chris_4x1rf> i have a 4 ele Yagi pointing roughly 250deg
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[08:49] <DL1SGP> that is good, thanks for building it and setting it up
[08:50] <chris_4x1rf> no prob, will make a front end filter and preamp
[08:51] <chris_4x1rf> maybe even this evening
[08:51] <DL1SGP> that is HAM spirit :)
[08:52] <DL1SGP> possibly you can use the yagi for repeaters or other purpose later on, who knows... I go by the standard that no matter what... every antenna you might get is useful at some point
[08:52] <DL1SGP> my neighbors quite do not like me for that :D
[08:54] <DL1SGP> today I had the idea of getting 4 cheap yagis for the 70cm band ... setting them up to point into each direction... then having a switch on it, guess idea will be unsupported by neighbors and family though
[08:54] <chris_4x1rf> Have abt 15m RG58 before the RTL dongle, so the RX noise figure is about 10db, not very good
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[08:54] <DL1SGP> yeah, I also have to use long coax before I get to the antenna farm, quite a shame
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[08:57] <chris_4x1rf> great ideea if no rotor
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[08:57] <DL1SGP> and faster than a rotor, you can get quite good yagis for such purpose starting at EUR 10 over here, a company is selling them off like mad
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[09:00] <chris_4x1rf> made the ant from 2mm CU wire on a wooden stick, cost zero
[09:00] <chris_4x1rf> fine runwd
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[09:00] <Chetic> can the ublox gps be supplied with 5v?
[09:00] <DL1SGP> yeah I like building antennas myself
[09:00] <chris_4x1rf> fine tuned with VNWA
[09:01] Nick change: MIKE -> Guest31845
[09:01] <Upu> no Chetic
[09:01] <Upu> unless you use the breakout board with level converters on
[09:01] <Chetic> hmm
[09:01] <Chetic> I have max 67mA current draw written down for the gps
[09:02] <Chetic> the pi only delivers max 50mA on 3v3, and I need other things powered there as well
[09:02] <Upu> thats about the max for a MAX6 with 3.3V supply
[09:02] <Upu> the new MAX7's are much lower
[09:02] <Chetic> so I guess I need to get a 3v3 regulator
[09:02] <Chetic> as well
[09:02] <chris_4x1rf> will leave the bandwith to more on topic discussions...
[09:03] <chris_4x1rf> nice to know the atreaming atill works...
[09:03] <Upu> well I think you may be ok Chetic
[09:03] <Upu> have you bought a GPS yet ?
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[09:03] <Upu> Pretty sure daveake powers them from his Pi
[09:03] <Chetic> yeah a max-6
[09:03] <Chetic> but the max-7 datasheet says 67mA as well
[09:03] <Upu> I don't recall him ever using a separate reg
[09:04] <daveake> he does
[09:04] <Upu> nah its nothing like that
[09:04] <Upu> there you go
[09:04] <Upu> you're all good
[09:04] <Chetic> wait, no, daveake
[09:04] <daveake> The Pi says 50mA max at 3.3V but that's mostly a lie
[09:04] <Chetic> heh
[09:04] <Upu> lol
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[09:04] <Chetic> good because all the other peripherals draw almost nothing
[09:05] <Chetic> you think I'm good then?
[09:05] <daveake> Remember, the model A has the same 3.3V regulator that the model B does
[09:05] <daveake> And the A uses 300mA less
[09:05] <Chetic> I was gonna disable the ethernet/usb controller
[09:05] <daveake> So that's an extra 300mA you can use
[09:06] <Chetic> yeah but the A doesn't use 300mA less on the 3v3 regulator
[09:06] <Chetic> just 300mA total
[09:07] <Chetic> I'll hook it up and do some stress tests
[09:07] <Chetic> trust your experience daveake :p
[09:08] <Upu> daveake's done it once or twice
[09:09] <Upu> first man to transmit kernel panic messages @ 30km
[09:09] <LazyLeopard> ;)
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[09:10] <Chetic> rofl
[09:10] <DL1SGP> lol
[09:11] <Chetic> that's pretty funny
[09:11] <Upu> clue : tape the SD card in
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[09:12] <Chetic> ah lol
[09:14] <Upu> ping craag
[09:14] <chrisstubbs> morning
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[09:18] <Piet0r> Hi all
[09:19] <DL1SGP> hi Piet0r
[09:23] <Piet0r> The anual Dutch event Ballonvossenjacht is in progress at the moment
[09:24] <Piet0r> You can follow it through the following ATV stream http://live.wowza.kpnstreaming.nl/pi6atvlive/pi6atv.smil/playlist.m3u8
[09:24] <Piet0r> (open it with VLC player)
[09:24] <DL1SGP> there is also a GT node running for it in Amsterdam :)
[09:25] <Piet0r> They will be streaming live from the HAB from around 13:00 GMT+2 :)
[09:25] <DL1SGP> not for the video of course :)
[09:25] <Piet0r> From the Shell tower?
[09:26] <DL1SGP> the RX is located in Haarlem :)
[09:26] <Chetic> heh daveake: the camera board is powered by the 3v3 regulator and it draws up to 240mA
[09:27] <Chetic> and a linear regulator at that..
[09:27] <daveake> I know
[09:28] <daveake> I never use that linear reg as it's shite
[09:28] <Chetic> oh you've replaced it?
[09:29] <daveake> Yes, with an MCP1825S
[09:29] <daveake> Or you can use a cheap switching reg from ebay
[09:29] <Upu> did you ever try powering the Pi from that TPS module ?
[09:29] <daveake> No
[09:29] <Upu> try that when you get back I'll be very interested
[09:29] <daveake> Forgot about that :p
[09:29] <daveake> Will do
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[09:37] <mfa298> I have got an earlier model-b pi working with PiCam, NTX2 and gps all off the pi with no mods but I think that's very unusual.
[09:38] <mfa298> NTX2 is powered from 5v and only enabled when needed which might help.
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[09:38] <Upu> you can power the NTX2 from 3V I think
[09:38] <Upu> runs @ 2.7V internally
[09:39] <mfa298> on the pi with original reg 5v makes more sense (3v3 has the low current limits)
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[09:40] <mfa298> when I get a model-a for flight I'll probably do a daveake on it and make it all 3v3
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[09:57] <craag> Upu: pong
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[10:32] Action: enkidu is back
[10:33] <daveake> PING ALL
[10:33] <daveake> batc feed for the LOHAN chase car is on now; about to go downtown
[10:33] <eroomde_> pong singleton
[10:34] <daveake> car should be on spacenear too
[10:34] <eroomde_> has it launched?
[10:34] <daveake> exciting eh?
[10:34] <daveake> Nah tomorrow
[10:34] <daveake> about 1pm UK ISH time
[10:34] <DL1SGP> pong daveake
[10:34] <daveake> pung
[10:34] <DL1SGP> :D great news, thanks
[10:35] <daveake> You get to see some Spanish countryside
[10:35] <daveake> and it is nice here
[10:35] <DL1SGP> and warm I assume!
[10:36] <daveake> yup
[10:36] <DL1SGP> jealous :)
[10:37] <gonzo_> it's nice and warm in the UK still dave. If you keep your jumper on
[10:37] <daveake> :)
[10:37] <daveake> brb
[10:38] <arko> http://hackaday.com/2013/09/12/digital-camera-becomes-video-transmitter/
[10:38] <arko> nice work chrisstubbs and fsphil :)
[10:40] <chrisstubbs> cheers arko :)
[10:43] <Babs> arko, you back over in the US yet?
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[10:44] <arko> Babs: wednesday
[10:44] <arko> still enjoying the UK :)
[10:44] <arko> going to wales tomorrow for a day trip
[10:44] <Babs> the rain is cool huh? it basically does this for 364 days a year. the other day we eat ice cream.
[10:44] <Babs> where in wales?
[10:44] <arko> haha yeah, i love it
[10:44] <arko> im in tshirt and shorts now
[10:44] <arko> Cardiff
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[10:45] <Babs> Our pie factory is in Cardiff. Make sure you buy one when you are there ;-)
[10:45] <gonzo_> mmmmm, pie
[10:46] <arko> oh sweet, whats the company called?
[10:46] <Babs> http://www.petersfood.co.uk/
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[10:48] Action: DL1SGP likes Pie!
[10:49] <Babs> Everyone likes pies
[10:49] <fsphil> mmmm Apple Tart
[10:50] Action: DL7AD like Pie as well
[10:51] <arko> Babs
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[10:52] <arko> looking at the brochure
[10:52] <arko> pies with meat!
[10:52] <arko> :) these look yum
[10:52] <DL1SGP> Chicken Pot Pie!
[10:52] <arko> i'll have to keep an eye out
[10:52] <mfa298> Steak and Kindney (unless you're Hannibal Lecter when it migt be Kate and Sidney)
[10:52] <DL1SGP> lol
[10:52] <Darkside> with a nice chianti
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[10:55] <fsphil> first page of the brochure does seem to show them using clones
[10:55] <DL1SGP> Dolly Pot Pie?
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[11:05] <Babs__> you'll find them in the fish and chip shops there as well as the retailers. its a big brand in wales
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[11:06] <Martin_G4FUI> Bilberry pie. It takes mywife about 2hours to pick enough wild bilberries to make a pie, but it's worth it! :)
[11:07] <Martin_G4FUI> Makes your tongue purple though ...#
[11:08] <Martin_G4FUI> I guard the house while she's out picking . . .
[11:08] <Martin_G4FUI> A man's got to do, what a man's got to do ...
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[11:12] <jcoxon> ping fsphil
[11:12] <Piet0r> The balloon is up right now
[11:13] <Piet0r> Voice repeater up on 432.550 in / 145.475 out
[11:13] <Piet0r> The voice repeater is in the payload :)
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[11:20] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Piet0r, Which one ?
[11:20] <DL1SGP> Ballonvossenjacht, NL
[11:20] <Piet0r> It's a Dutch event
[11:21] <Piet0r> balloon foxhunt
[11:21] <DL1SGP> 145.475 is our local Club Frequency lol
[11:21] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ah not on snus
[11:21] <DL1SGP> they gonna QRM us
[11:21] <Piet0r> Well not today it is :p
[11:21] <Piet0r> Indeed
[11:24] <DL1SGP> :D
[11:25] <DL1SGP> Piet0r: does the stream for the ATV work for you?
[11:25] <Piet0r> Yes I'm watching with VLC
[11:25] <Piet0r> Works like a charm
[11:25] <DL1SGP> can you provide the link again please?
[11:26] <Piet0r> http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Flive.wowza.kpnstreaming.nl%2Fpi6atvlive%2Fpi6atv.smil%2Fplaylist.m3u8&h=IAQEk8lHj
[11:26] <Piet0r> kak
[11:26] <DL1SGP> hee
[11:26] <Piet0r> Without the facebook part
[11:26] <Piet0r> http://live.wowza.kpnstreaming.nl/pi6atvlive/pi6atv.smil/playlist.m3u8
[11:26] <Piet0r> There
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[11:27] <DL1SGP> thank you
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[11:27] <Darkside> without the 8 part i guess
[11:27] <Darkside> or not
[11:27] <Piet0r> You have to reopen it occasionally
[11:27] <Darkside> not loading here
[11:27] <Piet0r> No with the 8 part
[11:27] <Piet0r> Give it a sec
[11:28] <Darkside> i can't ven curl the m3u8 file
[11:28] <Piet0r> http://live.wowza.kpnstreaming.nl/pi6atvlive/pi6atv.smil/playlist.m3u8
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[11:28] <Piet0r> I copied it from VLC
[11:29] <fsphil> pong jcoxon
[11:29] <Piet0r> Hmm I'm disconnected now .. quess it's a bit crowdy at the streamingserver
[11:29] <jcoxon> can i pick your brains about makefiles for arm
[11:29] <fsphil> sure
[11:30] <jcoxon> basically i've been using libopencm3
[11:30] <jcoxon> but have wanted to add the lib CMSIS_DSP
[11:31] <jcoxon> oh
[11:31] <jcoxon> fixed it
[11:32] <fsphil> lol
[11:32] <jcoxon> guess that was a JGC example of telling someone and working out hte answer
[11:32] <fsphil> yes, I laughed at that. I've done that without realising a few times
[11:32] <mfa298> jcoxon: I was just thinking the same about being a good JGC example
[11:33] <fsphil> what was it anyway?
[11:34] <jcoxon> so the error was http://pastebin.com/HkN9BwQR
[11:34] <jcoxon> as i pasted it into pastebin i noticed the extra \
[11:35] <fsphil> ah ha
[11:35] <fsphil> making much progress with it? I've ordered the proper one ...
[11:36] <jcoxon> so i've got uart working
[11:36] <jcoxon> and adc (which took ages)
[11:36] <jcoxon> by adding in CMSIS-DSP then i can start doing cool signal processing stuff
[11:37] Action: jcoxon is watching the Americas Cup
[11:37] <jcoxon> its insane
[11:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Anyone else having problems with the pi6atv site?
[11:40] <fsphil> boat racing looks really unconfortable
[11:40] <fsphil> what's happening there OZ1SKY_Brian?
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: have you seen one-person hydrofoil dingys?
[11:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> video from the dutch balloon
[11:41] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, no
[11:41] <Piet0r> @OZ1SKY_Brian Don't use the site
[11:41] <Piet0r> Just use VLC and open this stream: http://live.wowza.kpnstreaming.nl/pi6atvlive/pi6atv.smil/playlist.m3u8
[11:42] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Piet0r great, thanks
[11:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> The cars video, is that from the chace team?
[11:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> chase
[11:43] <Piet0r> Yes from the guys behind the foxhunt
[11:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok nice
[11:43] <Piet0r> They have GPS data
[11:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> waiting for a signal here
[11:43] <Piet0r> The "hunters" offcourse not
[11:44] <OZ1SKY_Brian> should have something at ~17000m
[11:44] <Piet0r> @OZ1SKY_Brian QTH?
[11:44] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Denmark
[11:44] <Piet0r> Ah cool
[11:44] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Heard it 3-4 before in the past
[11:44] <DL1SGP> I can hear the dutchies!!! yay
[11:44] <OZ1SKY_Brian> also did some qso´s over it
[11:45] <Piet0r> It's very busy atm
[11:45] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes and it dont get any getter the higher it gets
[11:45] <OZ1SKY_Brian> getter-better
[11:46] <Piet0r> It's vey clear here in the Netherlands (offcourse)
[11:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> do you know the current hight?
[11:46] <Piet0r> I'm about 30KM away from the balloon :p
[11:47] <Piet0r> Abut 10KM I beleive
[11:47] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok
[11:47] <Piet0r> There should also be a payload around 390MHz
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[11:48] <Piet0r> I don't know exactly what
[11:48] <DL1SGP> 320km something here :)
[11:49] <Piet0r> 403.9MHz it is, sorry
[11:49] <Piet0r> 15KM at the moment
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[11:50] <Piet0r> 403.9MHz is a KNMI sonde
[11:50] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
[11:51] <enkidu> Piet0r: you are using risky band
[11:52] <Piet0r> What do you mean?
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[11:54] <nils___> good afternoon
[11:54] <enkidu> you should stick to 434+-3mhz, assuming you are in eu
[11:54] <DL1SGP> hi nils___
[11:54] <nils___> PA3WEG and me are streaming s-band video and VHF tpx audio from the baloon fox hunt live, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSNAGkleAFU
[11:56] <jcoxon> enkidu, this launch is in collaberation with the meterological office i tihnk
[11:56] <jcoxon> so they are using sonde freqs for the tracking
[11:56] <OZ1SKY_Brian> enkidu The 403.9 is the metro sonde, it got nothing to do with hamradio, its for the metro office.
[11:56] <enkidu> k then
[12:02] <Rebounder> nils___: cool, easy to get seasick with that video.. :)
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[12:03] <nils___> Rebounder, lol yes agree
[12:04] <nils___> no lunch here in the next hour for us
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[12:04] <Rebounder> nils___: url to spec for the payload?
[12:05] <nils___> have a look at http://www.ballonvossenjacht.nl/
[12:05] <Piet0r> http://www.ballonvossenjacht.nl/start/
[12:05] <DL1SGP> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSNAGkleAFU
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[12:08] <OZ1SKY_Brian> traces of signal now on 145.475
[12:10] <Piet0r> Hight is no 20KM as reported by the sonde :)
[12:10] <Piet0r> *now
[12:10] <Piet0r> No GPS data unfortunatly ;)
[12:11] <OZ1SKY_Brian> The radiosonde should give the answer
[12:11] <OZ1SKY_Brian> If anyone is tracking that
[12:11] <Piet0r> They have disabled the GPS offcourse
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[12:11] <LeoBodnar> adamgreig: ping
[12:11] <Piet0r> There is a GPS in the payload but the GPS data is scrambled
[12:12] <Piet0r> again; offcourse :p
[12:12] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Piet0r are you sure that also did that on the radiosonde
[12:12] <Piet0r> Yes because sondemonitor is not giving me any GPS data
[12:12] <OZ1SKY_Brian> The metro sonde on 403
[12:12] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok
[12:12] <OZ1SKY_Brian> does it give you hight?
[12:12] <Piet0r> temp -54.6 celsius
[12:12] Hix (~Hix@78-105-50-72.zone3.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[12:13] <Piet0r> 20945meter
[12:13] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok
[12:13] <Piet0r> ascending at 5.3 m/s
[12:14] <Piet0r> 21350 meter
[12:14] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Does vossen mean fox in dutch?
[12:16] <OZ1SKY_Brian> weak voices on 145.475 now
[12:16] <nils___> yes
[12:16] <nils___> vossen=foxes
[12:17] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok
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[12:18] <DL1SGP> nice signal from the dutch balloon :)
[12:18] <OZ1SKY_Brian> where is the report box on the website, where we used to report back?
[12:20] <Piet0r> What do you mean?
[12:20] MoALTz_ (~no@host81-153-181-27.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:20] <Piet0r> Reporting is done through Facebook
[12:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> there used to be a report box in the website
[12:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> oh ok
[12:21] <nils___> OZ1SKY, you want to try a QSO through it?
[12:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> nick_ still too weak
[12:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> lots of qsb
[12:21] <bertrik> Piet0r: can I help somehow with tracking?
[12:21] <Piet0r> There is no tracking
[12:22] <Piet0r> The "hunters" have to use RF to track it
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[12:23] <Piet0r> You can use sondemonitor on 403.9 MHz to get the current height and temp and stuff
[12:23] <Piet0r> But there is no GPS data, because that would spoil the hunt
[12:23] <x-f> do they know about the CUSF landing predictor? :>
[12:23] <Piet0r> Sure but a lot of data is unknown to the hunters
[12:23] <Piet0r> Like lift and such
[12:23] <iain_G4SGX> This looks like great fun.. Should do this in UK too.
[12:24] <OZ1SKY_Brian> x-f its a balloon fox hunt, the point is to find it with out gps data.
[12:25] <Piet0r> 25104 meter
[12:25] <OZ1SKY_Brian> only using radio tracking
[12:25] <Piet0r> -51.4 celsius
[12:25] <bertrik> I can see the signal very clearly from the hague, netherlands, but we don't have a registered copy of sondemonitor
[12:25] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 5/3 qsb now
[12:25] <Piet0r> You can use it for 21 days for free
[12:26] <Piet0r> @bertrik Are you at revspace?
[12:27] <iain_G4SGX> Does the 80M beacon send CW or telemetry?
[12:27] Wouter-[pa3weg] (83b49ae4@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[12:27] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> hi all
[12:27] <Piet0r> Hoi
[12:27] <OZ1SKY_Brian> iain_G4SGX dont think there is any 80m beacon this tine
[12:27] <OZ1SKY_Brian> time
[12:28] <Piet0r> @Wouter-[pa3weg] Are your hunters going well?
[12:28] <Piet0r> No they are on 7.048 MHz I beleive
[12:28] <Piet0r> *believe
[12:28] <Piet0r> No 80M this year
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[12:29] <iain_G4SGX> Yes i hear it on 40
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[12:29] <Piet0r> Sonde is getting weaker :(
[12:29] <Piet0r> 267000 meter
[12:29] <Piet0r> -0 :p
[12:30] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 'The 40m freq is the ground station talkback
[12:30] <Piet0r> Yes the voice repeater is on 432.550 MHz / 145.475 MHz out
[12:30] <iain_G4SGX> do you know its rtty bits, speed etc?
[12:31] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> I am not hunting
[12:31] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> just tracking the video
[12:31] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> and streaming on youtube
[12:31] <Piet0r> Oh I thought you were directing your hunters
[12:32] <Piet0r> Burst!
[12:32] <OZ1SKY_Brian> oh that was early
[12:32] <Piet0r> Burst was at 28KM
[12:33] <Piet0r> Above Nijmegen
[12:33] <OZ1SKY_Brian> not very good signals this year
[12:33] <OZ1SKY_Brian> lots and lots of qsb
[12:34] <Piet0r> Descending at 25 m/s
[12:34] <Piet0r> 22645 meter
[12:35] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes "geklapt" they report
[12:35] <Piet0r> Haha ;)
[12:35] <charolastra> it could use some kind of stabilizer; but with what technology is the video downlinked?
[12:36] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> better video than the organizers here ;)
[12:36] <OZ1SKY_Brian> does know abit of dutch though :-)
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[12:36] <Piet0r> It's an ATV link
[12:36] <Piet0r> @2.3GHz
[12:36] <OZ1SKY_Brian> charolastra ITS analoug video
[12:36] <OZ1SKY_Brian> I do wonder why they are not using datv
[12:37] <OZ1SKY_Brian> weight isue maybe
[12:37] <Piet0r> I guess beacuse they are manually pointing the yagi
[12:37] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Seems the dutch are some of the leaders on datv
[12:37] <Piet0r> With analog video you have more tollerance
[12:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> we you search for atv or datv, most of the hits are .nl
[12:38] <Piet0r> Dish I mean, not yagi, sorry
[12:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> they just showed the dish on video
[12:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> looks like a 1.2 or 1.5m dish
[12:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ish
[12:39] <Piet0r> The video is sent at 2330 MHz
[12:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes
[12:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> didnt it used to be 23cm?
[12:40] <Piet0r> Hmm I don't know
[12:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> i think it was the first balloon ive ever heard
[12:41] <OZ1SKY_Brian> sent in a report, hoping for a new qsl card :-)
[12:41] <enkidu> Piet0r: where was this balloon launched?
[12:41] <Piet0r> De Bilt
[12:42] <Piet0r> That's near Utrecht, the Netherlands
[12:42] <Piet0r> From the KNMI terrain
[12:42] <enkidu> ok
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[12:47] <nils___> we have a 3m dish
[12:47] <nils___> its on the stream right now
[12:48] <DL1SGP> nils___: lovely stream, lovely repeater :) I plan to come to NL for the next hunt :)
[12:48] <DL1SGP> can you tell what the burst altitude was nils___ ?
[12:48] <Piet0r> 28KM
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[12:48] <DL1SGP> bedankt!
[12:48] <Piet0r> Alsje ;)
[12:49] <Piet0r> 10394 meter
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[12:50] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Seems to be abit of tropo today, hearing German repeater on 2m.
[12:51] <nils___> some nice reflections visible in some lakes on he ground
[12:52] Geoff-G8DHE (~Geoff-G8D@geoffg8dhe.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:52] <nils___> it seems it went a bit south
[12:53] <enkidu> digitas shit in israel
[12:57] <DL1SGP> heh yes enkidu
[12:58] <Chetic> should I get a stripboard instead of this? http://i.imgur.com/Bvw86sh.jpg
[12:58] <enkidu> this should do
[12:58] <Chetic> I'm afraid of radio interference
[12:58] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Chetic i like that one better than stripboard, but not to say everyone do
[12:59] spacekitteh (~quassel@unaffiliated/traumapony) joined #highaltitude.
[12:59] <enkidu> Chetic: If you are really afraid, its time for etching
[12:59] <Chetic> lol not that afraid
[12:59] <Chetic> I'll use this if you think it's ok
[13:00] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Chetic thats what i used
[13:00] <nils___> we start to loose it on s-band here
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[13:01] <DL1SGP> I lost it in 2m about 12minutes ago, but it was big fun
[13:03] <DL1SGP> still looks OK stream wise :) guess nobody will rant about it not being 1080 HDTV :)
[13:03] <OZ1SKY_Brian> DL1SGP what stream are you looking at?
[13:03] <DL1SGP> the youtube one
[13:03] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok
[13:03] <DL1SGP> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSNAGkleAFU
[13:04] <Piet0r> Still getting sonde data
[13:04] <Piet0r> 3604 meter right now
[13:05] <DL1SGP> :)
[13:05] Action: enkidu thinks, that not only he is radiosonde freak
[13:06] <DL1SGP> I quite like them
[13:06] <Piet0r> You thought right ;)
[13:06] <DL1SGP> living about 20km from radiosonde launch station :)
[13:07] <Piet0r> 8Km here :p
[13:07] <DL1SGP> it is where we get our Balloons from for the balloon starts of the club :)
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[13:08] <Piet0r> Nice
[13:08] <nils___> under the clounds now
[13:08] <Piet0r> I'm living near De Bilt
[13:09] <Piet0r> They launch a balloon every thursday
[13:09] <Piet0r> And sometimes on a nother day when they feal like launching one :p
[13:09] <DL1SGP> 4 starts daily at this end, also on weekends
[13:09] <bertrik> Piet0r: oh, I thought they did one every day, but at 0:00 UTC, so a bit late in local time
[13:10] <Piet0r> They did
[13:11] <Piet0r> Bezuinigingen
[13:12] <OZ1SKY_Brian> wow that dish is moving pretty fast
[13:15] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> 6 degrees a seconf maximum
[13:15] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> with ramp-up
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[13:15] <OZ1SKY_Brian> vy nice
[13:15] <OZ1SKY_Brian> how big is the dish?
[13:15] <nils___> 3m
[13:15] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> 3m
[13:15] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> haha, Nils beat me to it
[13:16] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ah alot bigger than my gess. nice
[13:16] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> we are sitting side-by-side ;)
[13:16] Relman (~Relman@cpc1-tilb8-2-0-cust985.basl.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[13:16] <Relman> good afternoon everyone
[13:16] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hearing packet on one of the streams
[13:16] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Relman afternoon
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[13:18] <OZ1SKY_Brian> dish moving again
[13:18] PE2G (~Miranda@a83-161-208-176.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #highaltitude.
[13:20] <nils___> we got a visitor on the 2330MHz streaming freq, peaking it now
[13:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Its the mars rover :-)
[13:21] <DL1SGP> yea else aliens
[13:22] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ahh the philips testcard, i dont see that anymore
[13:25] <DL1SGP> somebody is trying to steal the dish!
[13:27] <OZ1SKY_Brian> looks like they found it
[13:28] <OZ1SKY_Brian> german 2m rep in again
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[13:31] <DL1SGP> heh Brian :)
[13:32] <DL1SGP> which one?
[13:32] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Shalom Chris
[13:32] <chris_4x1rf> Hi Brian!
[13:32] <OZ1SKY_Brian> DL1SGP not sure, no id, think it might be hamburg
[13:32] <DL1SGP> welcome back chris_4x1rf your stream is still working
[13:32] <DL1SGP> what is the freq dear brian?
[13:33] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 145,6625
[13:33] <OZ1SKY_Brian> not open right now
[13:33] <chris_4x1rf> yes, but there is some QRM onthe channel, wondering when it started>
[13:33] <DL1SGP> a while ago
[13:34] <chris_4x1rf> ok, hope it will cease soon then..
[13:35] <OZ1SKY_Brian> DL1SGP now
[13:35] <OZ1SKY_Brian> DL1SGP closed
[13:36] <chris_4x1rf> got an e-mail from Sven DL7AD, he thinks he may have heared B11, anybody knows more?
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[13:36] <enkidu> I dont know a thing, when it was and where?
[13:36] <DL1SGP> was a false positive as far as I know chris_4x1rf
[13:37] <DL1SGP> Brian, I briefly heard something but not really strong at all, will check with repeater lists to see which one that was
[13:37] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hmm lots of german talk on 429MHz, wonder what that is
[13:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> uhhuuu sounds like football talk
[13:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> "deutche manshaft"
[13:38] <Darkside> >_>
[13:38] <DL1SGP> DB0XH, Hamburg-Center is on 145,6625
[13:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> DL1SGP are you on skype?
[13:39] <DL1SGP> yes
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[13:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> i could stream the audio and you could "decode" for me :-)
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[13:40] <daveake> Near death experience from this .. http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveake/9759328893/
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[13:40] <ibanezmatt13> afternoon
[13:40] <chris_4x1rf> Sven says it may have heared it's "beep" without telemetry, and higher in frequency, abt 2850Hz
[13:41] <chris_4x1rf> is this scenario possible? maybe a software crash or hw prob?
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[13:43] <x-f> chris_4x1rf, i listened to that, it was something else, was not stable and at times it had an echo or two
[13:43] <chris_4x1rf> remeber the time? I can check my recording
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[13:44] <x-f> around 6:40 UTC
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[13:45] <chris_4x1rf> thanks!
[13:45] <x-f> np
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[14:10] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: pong
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[14:17] <LeoBodnar> found that if (SYNC == 1) != if(SYNC == 0)
[14:18] <enkidu> SYNC == 2
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[14:19] <LeoBodnar> sanity restored (partially)
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[14:19] <enkidu> btw if it has to be boolean ther is if(SYNC)
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[14:23] <LeoBodnar> It had to be #ifdef originally
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[14:29] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: aha...
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[14:29] <LeoBodnar> coherent search digs deeper now
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[14:31] <LeoBodnar> not sure how SNR is measured, last noise level I can decode header from your files is -12dB, in Audacity I have two tracks, both normalised and last one I can decode the header is with signal mixed down to -27dB
[14:31] <LeoBodnar> the other track is white noise
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[14:34] <LeoBodnar> That was quick Laurenceb_ :)
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[14:35] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: this is where what someone means by SNR becomes very precise and important
[14:35] <adamgreig> in my tracks, I take the total signal power by computing the total signal energy and dividing by duration
[14:35] <adamgreig> then I generate a noise vector of the same length as the signal vector
[14:36] <adamgreig> take its total power the same way
[14:36] <adamgreig> and then scale the noise such that the power ratio is precisely the dB required
[14:36] <adamgreig> then add the noise to the signal
[14:36] <LeoBodnar> so you are measuring ratios in power domain?
[14:36] <adamgreig> yes
[14:36] <adamgreig> which means the total amount of power in the signal compared to the total amount of power in the noise is precisely -12dB or whatever
[14:36] <LeoBodnar> I don't think audio engineers have a concept of power
[14:36] <adamgreig> you can see the code on http://nbviewer.ipython.org/urls/randomskk.net/u/DominoEX.ipynb
[14:37] <adamgreig> well we're not audio engineers ;)
[14:37] <adamgreig> regardless signal processing literature has a very good concept of power
[14:37] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: they do have
[14:37] <adamgreig> and what frequency you operate on doesn't make any odds to that
[14:37] <enkidu> shame of them that they forget how to use it
[14:38] <LeoBodnar> Because their loads are unpredictable
[14:38] <adamgreig> so this is where we hit additional confusion
[14:38] <adamgreig> the amount of _power dissipated in a load_ varies with the load
[14:38] <LeoBodnar> No idea what input impedance devices have apart from low/high
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[14:38] <adamgreig> but the amount of power in a signal, especially an abstract signal, can be precisely defined in a dimensionless sense
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[14:38] <adamgreig> so you can still compare ratios fine
[14:39] <adamgreig> so if you fed these WAVs into your speaker
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[14:39] <adamgreig> there would still be -12dB between signal and noise
[14:39] <adamgreig> but that doesn't say _how much_ power is in signal or noise
[14:39] <adamgreig> just the ratio between the two
[14:39] <adamgreig> power ratios are valid regardless of the device impedance, so long as it's linear
[14:39] <LeoBodnar> I am more interested to know what dl-fldigi measures
[14:40] <LeoBodnar> as this is get thrown around the web in discussions
[14:40] <adamgreig> hopefully fldigi approximates what I measure but the only answer is in the source
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[14:40] <adamgreig> it's possible fldigi uses a band limited SNR
[14:40] <adamgreig> and does it via the PSD
[14:40] <gb73d> Hi I went over to Brightwalton today had a look around
[14:40] <LeoBodnar> http://www.w7ay.net/site/Applications/cocoaModem/UsersManual/mfskManual/mfskManual/dominoex_files/snrwpm.png
[14:41] <gb73d> found the village pavillion think thats where the launches go from
[14:41] <gb73d> i went up to Stanmore to have a look at the mast there
[14:41] <gb73d> i believe the yagis on it are for 46mhz meteor scatter telem
[14:42] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: if that's accurate then your result of -12dB would appear to agree?
[14:42] <LeoBodnar> Yeah, this is header search, not decoding just yet but looks the same ballpark
[14:42] <adamgreig> but I maintain a healthy scepticism
[14:43] <adamgreig> doing band limited SNR will probably change the numbers a fair bit
[14:43] <adamgreig> in fact almost linearly with frequency I guess
[14:43] <adamgreig> with bandwidth*
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[14:43] <adamgreig> hmm - but no in ways that work in your favour
[14:43] <adamgreig> if I filtered the noise to 800-1200Hz before scaling it
[14:44] <adamgreig> then you'd need a lot higher noise amplitude to get the correct power for the ratio
[14:44] <adamgreig> so it'd be _harder_ to decode if band limited
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[14:45] <LeoBodnar> I would say stick to standard 300-3000 channel width
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[14:46] <adamgreig> well I could do that as well
[14:46] <adamgreig> but I mean that's only relevant if that's what other things are doing
[14:46] <adamgreig> which is by no means ensured
[14:47] <LeoBodnar> Because you can probably jam Domino with really narrowband noise and SNR will look bad
[14:48] <nils___> we are packing up here again, good sunday tracking!
[14:48] <LeoBodnar> I think baseline SNR measurement should be taken after a standard 3kHz audio channel filter
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[14:48] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: that is at best only valid for hams
[14:48] <adamgreig> and even then..
[14:48] <adamgreig> well hams and military ssb radio I guess :P
[14:49] <LeoBodnar> What's the next limit then? powerlevel of white noise is infinite
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[14:49] <adamgreig> I think the bandwidth of the signal is a more obvious choice
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[14:49] <LeoBodnar> This would give inflated performance figures possibly
[14:50] <adamgreig> wonder how much difference it makes... so the definition (on wikipedia!) says "both signal and noise power must be measured within the same system bandwidth"
[14:50] <adamgreig> which is what I'm doing now...
[14:50] <adamgreig> but that bandwidth for the signal only has power in a narrow band.
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[14:50] <LeoBodnar> yep
[14:50] <adamgreig> still...
[14:50] <LeoBodnar> does it assume you can fill the channel with signals side-by side?
[14:51] <adamgreig> well. let me try filtering both noise and signal to the the 355Hz bandwidth the domex specs claim is required for domex16
[14:51] <adamgreig> 822.5 to 1177.5
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[14:51] <adamgreig> I'll go for 800 to 1200 to give a bit of headroom
[14:52] <LeoBodnar> Is it Carson or more involved?
[14:52] <adamgreig> it's the ITU thing I think
[14:52] <adamgreig> BW = B + m.s.k apparently
[14:52] <adamgreig> http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/MFSK/Technical.htm at the bottom
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[14:52] <adamgreig> where B for baud, m for tones, s for spacing, k=1.2 for CPMFSK
[14:53] <adamgreig> but I mean it seems to hold
[14:53] <adamgreig> you've seen my code right?
[14:53] <adamgreig> http://nbviewer.ipython.org/urls/randomskk.net/u/DominoEX.ipynb
[14:53] <adamgreig> with the PSD
[14:53] <adamgreig> it really is all within 822 to 1177
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[14:53] <adamgreig> (as it happens my message doesn't ever use one of the upper tones which is why it appears to stop sooner
[14:54] <LeoBodnar> yeah I confirm that
[14:54] <LeoBodnar> I have noticed that
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[14:55] <adamgreig> filtering always made it look super bad btw, when I was doing it earlier
[14:55] <adamgreig> I guess I could just filter the noise
[14:55] <adamgreig> since the signal is already pretty well band limited
[14:56] <LeoBodnar> yes, if it is generated it should not have any noticeable splatter
[14:57] <LeoBodnar> apart from digitisation noise
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[14:58] <adamgreig> oh well that's interesting
[14:58] <adamgreig> wait
[14:58] <adamgreig> nope
[14:58] <LeoBodnar> what what what?
[14:58] <adamgreig> yea
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[14:58] <adamgreig> so the scale factor for the noise is a lot more with band limiting
[14:58] <LeoBodnar> that's what I though last nigh too! :D
[14:58] <adamgreig> as you'd expect
[14:59] <LeoBodnar> toproduce same snr figure?
[14:59] <adamgreig> in the 0dB case it used to scale the noise by 0.706, now it scales it by 3.236
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[14:59] <LeoBodnar> You have 10 times narrower noise band?
[15:00] <adamgreig> well it's now 400Hz instead of 8000Hz ish
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[15:01] <LeoBodnar> Should it not have scaled it by sqrt(8000/400)?
[15:01] <adamgreig> it has?
[15:01] <LeoBodnar> Or it just did :D
[15:01] <LeoBodnar> maths fail
[15:02] <adamgreig> bearing in mind the filter isn't perfect so there's more bandwidth at lower freqs as it rolls off
[15:02] <adamgreig> but yea
[15:02] <adamgreig> it does appear to be doing what you would expect
[15:02] <adamgreig> anyway I can give you these new files if you want
[15:02] <adamgreig> but I warn you they will only make life worse :P
[15:03] <LeoBodnar> Haha I guess so, could you stick them in a separate folder?
[15:03] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar what ocillator did you use?
[15:04] <LeoBodnar> Could you also make 1dB stepped files for original ones between -12dB and -15dB to fine tune search algorithm?
[15:04] <LeoBodnar> 0.5ppm TCXO DL7AD
[15:04] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: http://randomskk.net/u/domex/
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[15:05] <LeoBodnar> cheers that was quick
[15:05] <adamgreig> it doesn't take long :P
[15:05] <adamgreig> advantage of a script over messing with audacity
[15:05] <gb73d> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96783368/METEOR%20SCATTER%20MAST.AVI
[15:05] <LeoBodnar> Could you please make -13 and -14dB for the original ones?
[15:06] <adamgreig> hang on
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[15:06] <adamgreig> I think I forgot to actually add the bandlimited noise in those new files though
[15:06] <adamgreig> and yea will do
[15:06] <adamgreig> don't touch the new ones just yet (though it should be obvious!)
[15:06] <adamgreig> oh!
[15:06] <adamgreig> no I did
[15:06] <adamgreig> they're fine
[15:07] <adamgreig> I just removed the line that did that, then forgot I just removed it :P
[15:07] <LeoBodnar> yep! -30dB snr no sweat lol
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[15:07] <adamgreig> or did i...
[15:07] <adamgreig> well anyway one sec
[15:07] <LeoBodnar> they all sound the same
[15:08] <adamgreig> lol ok yea
[15:08] <adamgreig> I did add the noise, but I didn't scale the noise ;)
[15:08] <adamgreig> I am gonna put the filter on the tx signal too actually, just to be sure.
[15:09] <LeoBodnar> it sounds "tinny"
[15:09] <LeoBodnar> wooooood
[15:10] <LeoBodnar> lol
[15:10] <LeoBodnar> reminded me of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gwXJsWHupg
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[15:11] <adamgreig> ok
[15:11] <adamgreig> https://randomskk.net/u/domex/
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[15:12] <LeoBodnar> now they sound perfectly horrible
[15:12] <adamgreig> ;)
[15:12] <adamgreig> I generated a few +ve snr ones too
[15:12] <adamgreig> for comparison
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[15:12] <adamgreig> and only went down to -15
[15:14] <LeoBodnar> so -12dB should be roughly approximate to what, -4dB is bandlimited?
[15:14] <Laurenceb_> is this AWGN?
[15:15] <arko> Babs__: jaffa cakes need to be sold in the US
[15:15] <adamgreig> yea Laurenceb_
[15:15] <Laurenceb_> it doesnt sound like it
[15:16] <adamgreig> the bandlimited ones won't
[15:16] <adamgreig> the wideband ones should
[15:16] <Babs__> arko - unbelievably (for a snack) they are relatively healthy too
[15:16] <LeoBodnar> I have pops on -5dB BW limited
[15:16] <adamgreig> pops is bad
[15:16] <adamgreig> let's see
[15:16] <Babs__> that is how I can not feel guilty eating one pack in a sitting
[15:17] <Laurenceb_> its not even in my waterfall
[15:17] <Laurenceb_> in fldigi
[15:17] <Laurenceb_> oh i see
[15:17] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: what isn't?
[15:17] <arko> haha
[15:17] <Laurenceb_> i am playing the bandlimited
[15:17] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: might be running out of dynamic range with the bandlimited noise
[15:17] <arko> i just bought 2 36 packs
[15:17] <LeoBodnar> Jaffa cakes?
[15:17] <arko> for the week...
[15:17] <arko> yes
[15:17] <adamgreig> arko: they are sooo good
[15:17] <DL1SGP> hehe jaffa cakes!
[15:17] <arko> gonna buy more before flying out
[15:18] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: well it's 20 times less power, so more like 13dB? not sure exactly
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[15:18] <Laurenceb_> ah yes wideband looks more sane
[15:19] <LeoBodnar> fldigi waterfall looks like an omelette with BW limited files
[15:19] <Laurenceb_> heh
[15:19] <DL1SGP> how many packs of jaffa cakes would customs permit for import arko?
[15:20] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: these files won't play in dlfldigi
[15:20] <adamgreig> all 16kHz
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[15:20] <adamgreig> but it requires 8kHz
[15:21] <adamgreig> well they'll play but they'll be at the wrong frequency and look awful :P
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[15:22] <Babs__> arko - did you buy one of...ahem...these? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2305938/McVities-launches-The-Big-One-Jaffa-Cake-decades-beating-taxman-landmark-VAT-battle.html
[15:23] <adamgreig> you want the yard of jaffa cakes
[15:23] <adamgreig> it's a full yard tube
[15:23] <adamgreig> amazing
[15:23] <adamgreig> so many jaffa cakes
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[15:24] <arko> Babs__: :O woah
[15:25] <arko> is it taxed different?
[15:25] <Babs__> we make it in another of my businesses
[15:25] <Babs__> i say *my*, I mean the one I help manage for little reward
[15:25] <adamgreig> arko: cakes are tax exempt, but chocolate covered biscuits are taxed
[15:25] <adamgreig> for VAT
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[15:25] <Babs__> the difference between a cake and biscuit?
[15:25] <adamgreig> that's the tricky part ;)
[15:25] <Babs__> a cake goes hard with time, a biscuit goes soft
[15:25] <adamgreig> in court they argued that
[15:25] <arko> yeah
[15:26] <adamgreig> and the judge eventually bought it
[15:26] <adamgreig> especially once they made a huge cake version
[15:26] <arko> lol
[15:26] <Babs__> i imagine there was a practical demonstration using a g-clamp
[15:26] <Babs__> Feynman rolled in his grave
[15:26] <arko> hahaha
[15:26] <Babs__> "I think this has some significance for our tax situation"
[15:27] <Babs__> the cake version is made like a swiss roll. BABSCAKEFACT.
[15:27] <arko> ohrly?
[15:27] <Babs__> as in the big jaffa cake is made like a swiss roll. on a swiss roll machine.
[15:27] <Babs__> it is just laminated rather than rolled up.
[15:27] <arko> oh neat
[15:27] <arko> i can see what you mean
[15:28] <Babs__> the wastage on it is biblical as it is stamped out
[15:28] <Iain-G4SGX_> But its a biscuit not a cake, apparently..
[15:28] <Iain-G4SGX_> Jafa biscuit doesnt sound as good
[15:28] <arko> cant recycle the material?
[15:28] <Babs__> exactly. once baked you can't do anything with it.
[15:28] <adamgreig> you can't turn cake back into flour ;)
[15:28] <arko> haha
[15:28] <Babs__> entropy strikes again
[15:28] <arko> figure that out and you'll be rich
[15:28] <adamgreig> stupid entropy
[15:29] <Babs__> it always gets you in the end
[15:29] <arko> :P
[15:29] <adamgreig> at uni I had a friend who was convinced you could grind up bread to make flour
[15:29] <arko> wtf
[15:29] <adamgreig> we were like "nooooooo please stop believing this you are clearly wrong"
[15:29] <arko> srsly?
[15:29] <adamgreig> and every fucking time we brought it up
[15:29] <arko> hahaha
[15:29] <adamgreig> and he was so sure in his conviction
[15:29] <adamgreig> despite being like, a legit scientist, and generally not stupid
[15:29] <arko> or he was trollin
[15:29] <adamgreig> I think he was trying to play devil's advocate
[15:29] <adamgreig> he did that a lot
[15:29] <arko> :)
[15:29] <adamgreig> but I don't think he thought this one through
[15:29] <mfa298> technically I'm sure you can turn the cake back into flour, but it requires eating the cake, farmers, growing corn and milling said corn into flour.
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[15:29] <chrisstubbs> Why do they not sell jaffa offcuts? :O
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[15:30] <adamgreig> edmoore: glad you like new ipython! also I'm now using the keyboard shortcuts but they all remind me vaguely of emacs...
[15:30] <arko> chrisstubbs: i think blending it in my shake was a good idea
[15:30] <edmoore> yes
[15:30] <edmoore> however
[15:30] <arko> jaffa cake + oreo
[15:30] <edmoore> i might go to firefox
[15:30] <arko> shake
[15:30] <edmoore> because
[15:30] <edmoore> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/its-all-text/
[15:31] <adamgreig> haha
[15:31] <adamgreig> that's cute
[15:31] <LeoBodnar> The last BW limited file I can find the header in is -8dB
[15:31] <adamgreig> and yet the WB ones only -12dB?
[15:31] <adamgreig> curious
[15:31] <Babs__> edmoore - apparently you think that grinding bread down makes flour? adamgreig was telling us
[15:32] <adamgreig> not eroomde :P
[15:32] <LeoBodnar> And it still has pops
[15:32] <edmoore> wha?
[15:32] <adamgreig> 16:29:06 adamgreig> at uni I had a friend who was convinced you could grind up bread to make flour
[15:32] <adamgreig> >_>
[15:32] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: I guess the pops are me hitting the 16 bit max values
[15:32] <Babs__> "a friend"
[15:32] <adamgreig> given the size of the noise now
[15:32] <LeoBodnar> Yeas, overflowing to the negative side maybe
[15:33] <adamgreig> not sure it will make toooo much difference practically speaking
[15:33] <adamgreig> well it shouldn't overflow I don't think, just max. but maybe it overflows?
[15:33] <adamgreig> that'd be exciting
[15:33] <Babs__> chaps - all this over the horizon signal stuff. just a thought, would a HAB stable directional antenna be of any use?
[15:33] <adamgreig> Babs__: I bake enough to know that you can't do that >_>
[15:33] <Babs__> just trolling adamgreig
[15:33] <adamgreig> :P
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[15:34] <LeoBodnar> anyhow I can see a header in there which makes not much sense
[15:34] <edmoore> me and bread have an understanding
[15:34] <LeoBodnar> but no decoding just yet
[15:34] <Babs__> bread and I, bread and I
[15:34] <LeoBodnar> I haven't done coherent decoding yet, just header
[15:34] <adamgreig> so does your 'coherent' decoder work just as well as noncoherent now you fixed that bug?
[15:35] <LeoBodnar> better
[15:35] <LeoBodnar> how it should be
[15:35] <LeoBodnar> I was ditching all collected correlation data apart from the last tone
[15:36] <edmoore> adamgreig, have you been baking?
[15:36] <LeoBodnar> no wonder it worked on clean signal but fell apart under noise quicker
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[15:37] <LeoBodnar> I might just stick some bread in the machine now
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[15:37] <adamgreig> edmoore: not since getting ill :(
[15:37] <edmoore> sucks
[15:37] <adamgreig> my sourdough starter is still going strong though
[15:37] <edmoore> i have some starter but it's not seeing any action
[15:37] <edmoore> good sourdough is now plentiful in ox
[15:37] <edmoore> also we got a nice one from the market bread stall in cam
[15:37] <adamgreig> how long since you started it? and did you start from dried starter or just flour?
[15:37] <edmoore> flur
[15:37] <edmoore> our
[15:38] <adamgreig> hopefully will bake something soon but atm not got enough flour in the house >_>
[15:38] <adamgreig> ok
[15:38] <adamgreig> damn, I coulda given you some dried yukon starter :P
[15:38] <LeoBodnar> grind some bread
[15:38] <edmoore> it used to be lively
[15:38] <adamgreig> oh huh
[15:38] <adamgreig> then it died?
[15:38] <edmoore> well it's just been a bit dormant
[15:39] <edmoore> need to get back into the routine
[15:39] <adamgreig> moar flour
[15:39] <edmoore> i had a standard loaf i always made
[15:39] <adamgreig> I've gone to only feeding it 1c flour once a day
[15:39] <adamgreig> but should probably just fridge it for the time being
[15:39] <edmoore> that would last half a week or so
[15:39] <edmoore> mostly white with 30% wholemeal and a tiny bit of rye
[15:40] <adamgreig> nice
[15:40] <edmoore> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nnfhtog0a6x9e9j/photo.JPG
[15:40] <adamgreig> was the starter on white flour then you added the others in the dough?
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[15:40] <adamgreig> oh that's lovely
[15:40] <edmoore> ignore the dried yeast in the bg it's a lie
[15:40] <edmoore> that was for something else
[15:40] <adamgreig> i spy baker's yeast :P
[15:40] <adamgreig> haha yea
[15:40] <adamgreig> was gonna say
[15:40] <edmoore> croissants
[15:40] <adamgreig> fair
[15:41] <adamgreig> i wanna do up a batch of baps for lunches
[15:41] <adamgreig> getting them to work just right is annoying
[15:42] <edmoore> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k7d8as2nf7qn6fn/croissant.JPG
[15:42] <edmoore> croissants
[15:42] <adamgreig> oh very nice
[15:42] <edmoore> i love baps (tm)
[15:42] <adamgreig> much faff?
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[15:42] <edmoore> yes loads of faff
[15:42] <adamgreig> haha
[15:42] <edmoore> she's gotta be worth it
[15:42] <adamgreig> they look great though
[15:44] <edmoore> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ix4ke7jiwa77sgn/croissants2.JPG
[15:44] <edmoore> another batch slightly bigger
[15:44] <adamgreig> yea they look perfect
[15:44] <adamgreig> nice going
[15:44] <edmoore> glaze is 50/50 egg yolk/double cream
[15:44] <edmoore> which makes everything into an orange mirror finish
[15:44] <edmoore> it's amazing
[15:45] <adamgreig> ever done baguettes?
[15:45] <adamgreig> I keep being tempted to get the mould from amazon
[15:46] <edmoore> yes
[15:46] <edmoore> i have a cloche for baguettes
[15:46] <edmoore> the sort of linen sheet you do them on
[15:46] <edmoore> to proove them on
[15:46] <adamgreig> yea
[15:46] <edmoore> i did the tartine recipe
[15:46] <edmoore> they were lovely
[15:46] <adamgreig> do you then use a mould as well?
[15:47] <edmoore> nope
[15:47] <adamgreig> huh
[15:47] <adamgreig> ok
[15:47] <edmoore> just proove them in the cloche
[15:47] <edmoore> then roll them onto the baguette scoop, then onto the oven sheet
[15:47] <adamgreig> i got a ptfe baking sheet. soooo good.
[15:48] <edmoore> this kind of thing
[15:48] <edmoore> http://www.lighthousebakery.co.uk/usr/images/pages/81/2008_10_18_092.jpg
[15:48] <adamgreig> oh right, cool
[15:48] <adamgreig> work out well?
[15:49] <edmoore> yep not bad, though shaping is definitely tricksie
[15:49] <edmoore> lemme see if i can find a pic
[15:50] <edmoore> http://i.imgur.com/GIfzj.jpg
[15:50] <edmoore> http://i.imgur.com/A2RL0.jpg
[15:50] <adamgreig> nice
[15:50] <adamgreig> looks pretty good
[15:51] <edmoore> they're definitely trickie
[15:51] <edmoore> keeping them holey
[15:51] <edmoore> it's very easy to make baguette-shaped sandwich bread
[15:51] <edmoore> just had to learn to be gentle with the shaping
[15:51] <Laurenceb_> #bread
[15:52] <edmoore> http://www.youtube.com/v/OI-WstoakmQ&hl=en_US&fs=1
[15:53] <edmoore> /kick
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[15:53] <edmoore> that was the thing that helped me out adamgreig ^
[15:53] <edmoore> i was stabbing in the dark a bit before finding that
[15:54] <adamgreig> oh man, that dough
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[15:55] <edmoore> pair of random cobs
[15:55] <edmoore> http://i.imgur.com/77MWC.jpg
[15:55] <adamgreig> oh my god that 390g
[15:55] <adamgreig> how did he do that >_>
[15:55] <enkidu> adamgreig: I have glass baking plate, good thing
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[15:57] <adamgreig> enkidu: nice, I bet. I have a baking stone which is pretty great
[15:58] <enkidu> also good. especially for pizza
[15:58] <adamgreig> yup, essentially for good pizza
[15:58] <edmoore> yeah, i do mine on a pizza stone
[15:59] <edmoore> they're a great cooking thing
[15:59] <edmoore> great for anything that needs a lot of eat into the bottom
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[15:59] <edmoore> tarts, yorkshire puddings, everything
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[16:06] <gb73d> https://twitter.com/NMewsik4
[16:07] <gb73d> have sent 100 tweets now
[16:07] <Tectu> somebody needs attention?
[16:07] <edmoore> nice
[16:07] <edmoore> i think i have sent maybe 2
[16:07] <edmoore> i'm a bit afraid of it
[16:08] <gb73d> make ur stream for a specific purpose
[16:08] <gb73d> mine is space related
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[16:12] <edmoore> mine too i guess
[16:12] <edmoore> in that, i have only ever i think tweeted something i have done or a photo i have taken that is spacey
[16:13] <gb73d> pse follow me
[16:13] <edmoore> i'm nopt really into following. i don;t check twitter enough to get much value from it
[16:13] <adamgreig> hmm 1320 tweets
[16:13] <adamgreig> >_>
[16:14] <adamgreig> following 2^8 though!
[16:14] <edmoore> and a lot of the people i have subscribed too tend to just post links to other stuff, rather tha original content. i'm slightly trying, if i do get into it, to stick to following primary sources
[16:15] <edmoore> but equally i don;t much understand the dynamics so that might be silly
[16:15] <edmoore> sort of just using it as an rss feed agregator
[16:15] <adamgreig> think of it as an aggregate distributed filter
[16:15] <adamgreig> or a neutral network
[16:15] <adamgreig> information propagates through the network and each node choose what to pass on
[16:15] <gb73d> the other side is folllowing a relevant group of feeds for your own interest
[16:15] <adamgreig> the topology and connectivity means nodes tend to specialise
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[16:16] <adamgreig> so instead of following primary sources you follow someone who passes on selected information from many primary sources
[16:16] <edmoore> so basically the good stuff floats to the top
[16:16] <gb73d> i dont send a lot of tweets but i like to send links
[16:16] <adamgreig> well all the stuff floats somewhere
[16:16] <adamgreig> and you have to follow the sources that have stuff you like
[16:16] <adamgreig> but also I follow friends and sometimes the primary source is a twitter user just posting fun stuff
[16:17] <edmoore> yeah
[16:17] <edmoore> the latter i'm more attracted to
[16:17] <adamgreig> also good for a lot of types of news. bands I like releasing new albums or going on tour, artists posting sketches
[16:17] <adamgreig> Weird Twitter (tm)
[16:17] <edmoore> retweeting not so much
[16:17] <adamgreig> you can also turn off retweets for specific users
[16:17] <edmoore> ah, useful
[16:18] <adamgreig> gemini command module up for sale at the MIT swap fest
[16:18] <adamgreig> https://twitter.com/obra/status/379256705919758336
[16:18] <adamgreig> retweeted by jontyw
[16:19] <adamgreig> the downside is I must get hundreds/thousands of tweets a day
[16:20] <edmoore> would like the control panels
[16:20] <adamgreig> definitely
[16:20] <adamgreig> though I would settle for the whole thing
[16:20] <adamgreig> make a lander simulator
[16:22] <gb73d> would be good to have a radio shack in there, makes a faraday cage
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[16:24] <DL1SGP> welcome back daveake
[16:25] <gb73d> daveake I buzzed Brightwalton today after visit to Stanmore to see the meteor scatter mast up there
[16:25] <gb73d> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96783368/METEOR%20SCATTER%20MAST.AVI
[16:26] <gb73d> saw the village hall, think thats where launches take place
[16:26] <gb73d> bit of gale today
[16:26] <adamgreig> eroomde: apparently cued are giving me a PC for my PhD, how fun
[16:26] <adamgreig> I get to choose windows or linux >_>
[16:26] <daveake> Yes behind there
[16:27] <gb73d> lol
[16:27] <gb73d> i was glad to look arounf never been tyhere
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[16:32] <chris_4x1rf> please have a listen to this, maybe this is what you've heared this morning? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10280270/HAB/sample1.wav
[16:33] <edmoore> adamgreig, nice
[16:33] <edmoore> how are the OS deliberations going?
[16:33] <adamgreig> what, me choosing between windows and linux? mostly me wondering what they'd say if I asked for OS X
[16:33] <chris_4x1rf> sorry, that was meant for a private chat...
[16:33] <edmoore> do you get to choose between suse and suse?
[16:33] <adamgreig> haha I imagine so
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[16:33] <adamgreig> if it's chunky enough I'll just install kvm and run a ubuntu VM ;)
[16:34] <adamgreig> haven't asked what distros are available yet
[16:34] <gb73d> that chirp wave sounds like a low power device on 433mhz
[16:34] <edmoore> popped in to sigproc on fri
[16:35] <edmoore> pete, rjw, others all having coffee in the tea rom
[16:35] <edmoore> nothing changed
[16:35] <adamgreig> haha yea I bet
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[16:35] <adamgreig> isn't rjw leaving soonish?
[16:35] <edmoore> nfi
[16:35] <adamgreig> lol
[16:36] <edmoore> he said he'd finished his project with sumeet
[16:36] <edmoore> which had been the last 3 years or so of work
[16:36] <adamgreig> right
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[16:36] <edmoore> but i don't know if that means he's out on the streets now
[16:36] <edmoore> to be picked up by the chauffeur that google offered him
[16:37] <adamgreig> lol
[16:38] <adamgreig> I got a recruiting letter from google based on them crawling github and finding my profile had python and c stuff
[16:38] <adamgreig> "thanks but actually i'm about to start a phd in info eng"
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[16:40] <DL1SGP> lol
[16:41] <Willdude123> Hi edmoore
[16:42] <Willdude123> I think I'm going to give up an online course for the nth time
[16:43] <edmoore> deja vu
[16:44] <nats`> hello
[16:45] <edmoore> yo nats`
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[16:46] <Willdude123> deja vu? Oh yeah I said I might, this time I'm pretty sure I will
[16:47] <Willdude123> Nah I'll give it up and actually have a life for a few weeks maybe
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[16:48] <Willdude123> Ermagherd awesome address 1 NGAN WAN ROAD
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[17:21] <enkidu> sq9mdd frequency? is in my range
[17:21] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[17:21] <enkidu> (if is real)
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[17:29] <enkidu> ah, dead already
[17:31] <g4sgx-iain> Geez, sorry abt the disconnections and re-connections, damned norfolk internet at weekends, will move to voda if its annoying.
[17:31] <edmoore> you may live
[17:32] <jarod> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGwNb4MwlWc&hd=1 - Navtex QRM 2013-09-14 <-- QRM? You think so?
[17:32] <adamgreig> one of my friends from uni took on a job with google in sales
[17:32] <adamgreig> new facebook photo is him casually learning on giant gmail blocks wearing glass
[17:32] <adamgreig> https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/976757_10151727903174888_880463019_o.jpg
[17:32] <Lunar_Lander> adamgreig, cool
[17:33] <adamgreig> apparently that's the way to get glass in the uk :|
[17:33] <edmoore> somebody should tell him
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> http://xkcd.com/1251/
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> i totally need to do a kickstarter
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[17:38] <chrisstubbs> G0TDJ_Steve, Nice work! Thats one way of doing it! I was trying to find a "nice" way of doing it with no luck
[17:39] <edmoore> adamgreig, looks like all the ipython notebook exporting to other formats is now baked in
[17:39] <edmoore> eg for pdf or html for embedding in blogs or whatever
[17:40] <adamgreig> oh?
[17:40] <adamgreig> how? can't see that button
[17:40] <adamgreig> my export as only has py and ipynb
[17:41] <adamgreig> maybe need more libs
[17:41] <edmoore> command line
[17:41] <edmoore> but, still baked in
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[17:43] <edmoore> http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/rel-1.1.0/interactive/nbconvert.html?highlight=convert
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[17:48] <adamgreig> oh, right, cool
[17:48] <adamgreig> wonder why they don't just put that on the web ui
[17:48] <adamgreig> still, sweet
[17:48] <adamgreig> wow, can turn it into a slideshow
[17:48] <adamgreig> I note you can now enable little slide control stuff per-cell
[17:49] <adamgreig> would have possibly been quite cool for the gps talk. though I think writing it live worked even better
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[17:52] <edmoore> slide control stuff?
[17:53] g4sgx-iain (~iain@ left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[17:53] <adamgreig> on the toolbar, "Cell Toolbar:"
[17:53] <adamgreig> set to Slideshow
[17:53] <edmoore> IC
[17:53] <adamgreig> and suddenly you can make each cell a slide/subslide/notes/other stuff?
[17:53] <edmoore> yes dunno why not backed into the UI
[17:53] <adamgreig> and then I guess when you export to slideshow it does the right stuff
[17:53] <edmoore> docs mentioned it still beign beta, maybe that's why
[17:54] <adamgreig> I like the new help toolbar too
[17:54] <adamgreig> quick links to everything good
[17:54] <adamgreig> oh wow
[17:54] <adamgreig> http://docs.sympy.org/dev/tutorial/preliminaries.html
[17:54] <adamgreig> click Run code block in SymPy Live
[17:54] <adamgreig> on that snippet at the top
[17:55] <adamgreig> also have you seen the Cluster tab on the new ipynb homepage?
[17:55] <adamgreig> you can set up compute clusters and then interactively use them with ipython
[17:57] <edmoore> wow nice
[17:57] <adamgreig> ipython is crazy good basically
[17:58] <edmoore> never played with parallel stuff
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[17:59] <edmoore> bbiab
[17:59] <wb8elk_> Can someone activate my flight today? Flight Doc nr b845b98d814ae1aa4a8de0488386dc41
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[18:01] <adamgreig> wb8elk_: done
[18:01] <wb8elk_> Thank you !!!
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[18:23] <enkidu> wb8elk_: starting when?
[18:25] <Hix> ello
[18:25] <chrisstubbs> evening hix
[18:26] <Hix> anyone know if it is possible to get something like an x terminal window on win if i am ssh into linux? wanted idle open on screen without rdp
[18:26] <Hix> hi chrisstubbs
[18:26] <Willdude123> Hi chrisstubbs
[18:27] <Hix> Willdude123 I'm not at work ;p
[18:27] <Willdude123> WOAH
[18:28] <Willdude123> You do use IRC more often at work than not though
[18:28] <Hix> yup
[18:28] <Willdude123> pisg says so
[18:28] <enkidu> Hix: putty with X forwarding?
[18:28] <mfa298> Hix: there's Xming that gives you an X Server on windows (there's a few others as well)
[18:28] <Willdude123> Talking if that, I'm almost beating mattbrejza
[18:28] <Hix> ok cool, I'll google 'em cheers fellas. searching when you don't know what you are searching for is rather a task
[18:29] <Hix> i like the word xming it sounds merciless
[18:29] <Hix> remotely merciless
[18:29] <mfa298> he's alive
[18:30] Action: mfa298 suspects the movie reference might be before some peoples time
[18:30] <Hix> mfa298 were you at the conf? I don't think i met you. certainly didn't solve the handle/face problem
[18:32] <mfa298> Hix: I was there - I had the same issue, lots of people to try and put faces to names with
[18:32] Action: Willdude123 laughs at the fact being a kid nowadays is better than the before time era that over 25s were born in. Back in the day, you had 56k internet.
[18:33] <Hix> sorry dude - would have been good to say hello and thx for the continued random support :)
[18:33] <Willdude123> Huh>
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[18:33] <mfa298> for some of us back in the day (when we were 13) we didn't have internet. We actually went outside sometimes to have fun
[18:33] <Hix> 56k Willdude123 you lucky lucky fing. i remember 28.8k
[18:33] <Willdude123> I go outside
[18:33] <Willdude123> I went to the gym
[18:33] <Hix> I existed before the internet
[18:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> I go back too 300Baud and acoustic couplers!
[18:34] <Hix> gym is by virtue indoors
[18:34] <Mik_WD8MNV> me too... and paper tape
[18:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup!
[18:34] <Willdude123> I've been on near enough 56k interrwebs
[18:34] <Willdude123> It's not a pleasant experience
[18:34] <mfa298> I remember when the internet started to become big (with Freeserve) - when I was at Uni.
[18:34] <Hix> conkers, they've been banned now too
[18:35] <Hix> freeserve was shite
[18:35] <Hix> wasn't it from dixons/pcworld
[18:35] <Willdude123> It's interesting, what people call slow nowadays is about half a megabit per second.
[18:35] <Willdude123> Back in your day, it'd be about a tenth of that.
[18:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> It taught you patience ...
[18:36] <mfa298> I just remember it being the first non subscription based internet before that you paid AOL/Compuserve and you paid BT
[18:36] <Hix> its didn't really Geoff-G8DHE it infuriated you, but that was all there was :)
[18:36] <Willdude123> I suppose the speed of the internet increases with the size of the media distribution.
[18:36] <Mik_WD8MNV> d/l ing a file took all night... and if you were lucky it didn't glitch and drop it 1/2 way thru
[18:36] <Hix> I had demon for years. Hix0.demon.co.uk
[18:36] <Willdude123> *distributed
[18:37] <Hix> i remember downloading a trial of dreamweaver ~56Mb and it taking a whole night, wasnt even done in the morning
[18:37] <mfa298> also I'm not sure I'd call the Gym outside. Outside used to mean going out on bikes or down the park.
[18:38] <mfa298> 56k dialup were the real days of download managers.
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[18:39] <mfa298> especially when half the isps disconnected you after a couple of hours
[18:39] <Hix> bikes until well after the sun ahd set, then racing home with crap Ever-Ready lights cntaining 2 D cells putting out about 0.2 lumens
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[18:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Hix were you on CIX then and Tenner.a.month ?
[18:42] <Hix> ?
[18:42] <Hix> CIX Tenner.a.month? llost me
[18:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah obviously not, Demon started on CIX as the Tenner.A.Month conference which was a 64K line ...
[18:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> before they formed the first ISP as Demon
[18:43] <Hix> no, i was on the dial-up isp
[18:43] <Hix> red logo, wait a few days for them to post the install cd to you
[18:44] <Hix> oh wow. Xming looks like I can do stuff at work now too, excellent. Skillz mfa298
[18:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup that's what came out at the end.
[18:45] <mfa298> tunneling stuff with X requires a fair chunk of bandwidth but can work (talking of 56k dialup, I tried tunnelling netscape over X over dialup, that was fun)
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[18:53] <SpeedEvil> mfa298: DXPC - differential X protocol compressor
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> - whichmay now be moribund
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[18:55] <mfa298> SpeedEvil: that was the early days of 56k dialup I tried tunneling X like that, Now I generally only do it over the local lan
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[18:59] <SpeedEvil> same here
[19:00] Action: mfa298 remembers the days when telnet was the standard way to access unix systems remotely
[19:01] <mfa298> and no one cared too much about security
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[19:19] <enkidu> B-11 may be anywhere from tunisia to Pacific
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[19:23] <enkidu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/trajplot_11407.pdf
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[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> enkidu, was it heard of again?
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[19:27] <SpeedEvil> not so far
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> damn
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> it could go around the world and no one can prove it
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[19:28] <chris_4x1rf> a small update from this end guys
[19:29] <chris_4x1rf> just installed a preamp and narrow filter to my RTL2382 receiver
[19:29] <chris_4x1rf> estimated 0.5db NF
[19:30] <chris_4x1rf> that's the best I can do from this end :-)
[19:30] <chris_4x1rf> maybe I should turn the antenna more to the South, now it's pointing to 250deg
[19:31] <chris_4x1rf> I will continue to stream for now
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[19:31] <DL1SGP> thanks chris!
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:31] <chris_4x1rf> opened to any suggestions you may have which could increase our chances to maybe hear B11
[19:34] <DL1SGP> 250deg looks good to me, when it should be coming from north africa it would roughly be there unless it decided to change path :)
[19:34] <DL1SGP> the opening angle should help a bit anyhow
[19:35] <chris_4x1rf> here's a screen capture of SDR# before and after pream was installed, you can clearly see the about 6db overall receiver gain: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10280270/HAB/SDRsharp_before_and_after_preamp_and_filter.png
[19:36] <chris_4x1rf> but more importantly, drastically lowered noise figure and increased imunity to overload from the filter (3MHz wide at 3db, 4db insertion loss, Fc=435MHz)
[19:37] <chris_4x1rf> filter is after the preamp
[19:39] <chris_4x1rf> I'm constantly checking receiver frequency accuracy using a GPSDO locked RF generator, the RTL dongle may have about 30Hz temperature drift
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> Now, all you need is a transmitter to go with your awesome receiver. :)
[19:40] Action: SpeedEvil needs to get some sort of receiver setup done.
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> there is a gap up here in scotland - though not so relevant.
[19:41] <Mik_WD8MNV> <will buy preamp next month
[19:49] <enkidu> chris_4x1rf: you could try adding RC filter before preamp, so it will not be overdriven for sure
[19:49] <iain_G4SGX> Needs someone to systematically check all global tuners in South Europe daily. Keep thinking about it myself but always too busy recently.
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[19:51] <chrisstubbs> OpenStreetMap is horribly awesome
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> chrisstubbs: variably awesome.
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> damn.
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> I just remembered, I need to update it to remove my fishtanks.
[19:52] <mclane> ping upu
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane and Upu
[19:53] <mclane> hi Lunar_Lander
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[19:54] <mclane> back from vacation since one week
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[19:54] <mclane> how about your next balloon?
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[19:59] <Upu> hi mclane
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[19:59] <mclane> Hi upu, when will you re-open your shop? Need to order some things...
[20:00] <Upu> about 2 weeks sorry
[20:00] <mclane> ok, its not that urgent
[20:00] <Upu> depends what Doctor says
[20:00] <Upu> may have a better idea on Tuesday
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[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> hi daveake
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, still working
[20:01] <DL1SGP> hi again :)
[20:02] <mclane> upu: get well soon!
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, can I tell you what I wanted to say yesterday?
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[20:03] <Upu> sure on here pls Lunar_Lander
[20:03] <Upu> I have the font sized turned uo
[20:03] <Upu> up
[20:03] <Upu> cheers mclane
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> one moment
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[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> I was working on EAGLE the last days
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> this is a result so far http://gerblook.org/pcb/K9gxN3fvi8zThivvKZRPHc
[20:05] <Upu> looks tidy
[20:05] <Upu> GPS antenna looks like the ground plane has flooded over
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> wait
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> that is not the final version of course
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> but can you say what you mean?
[20:07] <Upu> err ok
[20:07] <Upu> GPS antenna looks like the ground plane has flooded over
[20:07] <Upu> might not be
[20:07] <Upu> I can't zoom in
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> but there is no ground plane
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> at the antenna
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> only that 50 ohm track
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[20:09] <Mik_WD8MNV> gonna sell those on etsy? : )
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> xD who?
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[20:11] <Mik_WD8MNV> etsy.com is a place to sell things
[20:12] <fsphil> sounds like ebay for people who can't spell
[20:13] <Mik_WD8MNV> you don't have to bid... it's a shop space
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:14] <Upu> like tindie I guess
[20:14] <adamgreig> tindie seems cool
[20:14] <chrisstubbs> Lunar_Lander, http://i.imgur.com/ZKgKQQa.png
[20:14] <adamgreig> etsy is more handmade arts and crafts
[20:15] <chrisstubbs> looks like RF_IN is connected to GND
[20:15] <chrisstubbs> but i guess its just a bad rendering on gerbview
[20:15] <Upu> thats what I was referring too
[20:15] <chrisstubbs> gerblook, whatever it is
[20:16] <chrisstubbs> Upu what happened to your eye?
[20:16] <Upu> detached retina, probably due to my extreme myopia
[20:16] <enkidu> Lunar_Lander: you can use net classes to keep clearance higher
[20:17] <chrisstubbs> Ooch not good! Hope you recover soon
[20:19] <Upu> ta
[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> chrisstubbs, yeah in EAGLE it is not connected to GND
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I noticed that
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> that is due to gerblook
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[20:22] <chrisstubbs> Okay cool, ERC and DRC all passed?
[20:22] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:22] <enkidu> still - increase clearance of GND
[20:23] <Upu> polygon priority probably
[20:24] <Upu> oh not connected
[20:24] <Upu> ok
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> one moment
[20:26] <enkidu> if you dont care about weight, you can use gps helix antenna
[20:26] <Upu> not really
[20:26] <Upu> if you mean Sarantel
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[20:27] <enkidu> looks nice, but probably only looks
[20:27] <enkidu> http://ava.upuaut.net/?paged=3
[20:27] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/fpdFrV8np4UbWToXJJ7w29
[20:28] <Upu> which one enkidu ?
[20:28] <Upu> thats my website btw :)
[20:28] <enkidu> see it :)
[20:28] <Upu> I meant Sarantel who make them have gone bust
[20:29] <enkidu> I would use antenna like in radiosondes ;)
[20:29] <Upu> good luck making it :)
[20:29] <Upu> all you need is a ceramic chip antenna
[20:29] <enkidu> probably yes
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, that is the latest version you see in that gerblook
[20:30] <Upu> no try again Lunar_Lander
[20:30] <Upu> your ground plane is all screwed up now
[20:30] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/PCB%20Pictures/pAVA/img014.jpg
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[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> *scratching head
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[20:33] #highaltitude: mode change '+o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> oh you mean the horizontal bars?
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[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> homepage says "Files generated from Eagle Cad sometimes have horizontal lines running through polygons"
[20:33] <enkidu> Lunar_Lander: export to PDF, upload
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> one moment
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[20:35] Topic changed on #highaltitude by Upu!Upu@2a00:14f0:e028:0:fd9d:571b:96de:a08: Welcome to #highaltitude - www.ukhas.org.uk
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> http://s.gullipics.com/image/k/0/s/5yvc1c-kwn40l-z2pu/StormdrifterIISMDBoardGND.png
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[20:35] Topic changed on #highaltitude by Upu!Upu@2a00:14f0:e028:0:fd9d:571b:96de:a08: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, rockets etc) www.ukhas.org.uk
[20:35] #highaltitude: mode change '-o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:35] <Upu> night all
[20:35] <enkidu> bb
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> night Upu g
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> get well soon!
[20:36] <chrisstubbs> Night Upu
[20:36] <eroomde_> http://www.wimp.com/goodactor/
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[20:53] <Willdude123> Hi
[20:55] <wb8elk_> in the air with my solar-powered mylar foil floater attempt
[20:56] <fsphil> ah it's launched?
[20:56] <DL1SGP> cool stuff wb8elk_
[20:57] <Mik_WD8MNV> GL... hope it floats far
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[21:00] <enkidu> wb8elk_: frequency?
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[21:12] <wb8elk_> 433.885 MHz AM modulated
[21:12] <wb8elk_> south of Huntsville, Alabama
[21:13] <wb8elk_> purely solar-powered so will only be on for another 2 hours...maybe less as the Sun gets lower. I should've waited until tomorrow morning but surface conditions were just too perfect.
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[21:13] <wb8elk_> I'm going up at 1 m/'s
[21:13] <wb8elk_> 1 m/s
[21:13] <wb8elk_> 13 gram payload..no batteries to save weight. I don't know how Leo got his to be 8.5 grams...WOW.
[21:14] <wb8elk_> very tough to get it down to 13 grams.
[21:14] <wb8elk_> everything is held together by wires and solder
[21:14] <wb8elk_> cobbled together last night just for fun
[21:14] <wb8elk_> powerfilmsolar solar cell
[21:16] <fsphil> your string ID seems to be resetting back to 1 every so often
[21:16] <fsphil> is the payload rebooting?
[21:18] <enkidu> wb8elk_: 0.8mm pcb, as tiny packages as possible, thin layer solars, miniature battery
[21:19] <craag> wb8elk_: Got any photos of the payload?
[21:20] <enkidu> Ill try beating leo's payload weight, but it will be hard to achieve
[21:21] <craag> You could do it with a CC430 I reckon.
[21:21] <craag> I've got a CC430 board in the works that should be comparable, but it's not totally designed for weight (and has no provision for solar)
[21:22] <enkidu> looks really nice
[21:22] <enkidu> CC430 + ublox or...
[21:22] <craag> Also, will have to xtal-pull for dominoex
[21:22] <craag> yeah
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[21:23] <enkidu> actually it could be done on two layers double sided pcb
[21:25] <craag> Some renderings of one of the early versions: http://imgur.com/a/fjE9H
[21:25] <craag> It's close to ready now, just investigating MSP430 code to make sure I don't want any pins broken out.
[21:27] <enkidu> AAA? it is 11.4g already
[21:28] <craag> 7.6g for AAA lithium
[21:28] <craag> Yeah it won't be sub 10g
[21:28] <craag> but hopefully not too much more!
[21:28] <enkidu> lithium... still Id use small rechargeable
[21:28] <craag> This isn't really for float
[21:29] <enkidu> bike tracker?
[21:29] <craag> No, general hab payload
[21:29] <craag> maybe latex float tracker.
[21:29] <enkidu> ah
[21:31] <craag> I'm umming and erring a bit with power at the moment, might switch for 3.6V LiSOCl cells and LDO to 3.3v so tcxo is easier.
[21:31] <enkidu> there are thin film solar cells that are paper weight
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> hi craag
[21:31] <craag> Evening Lunar_Lander !
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[21:32] <craag> I'm good, you?
[21:32] <enkidu> http://buildaroo.com/news/article/paper-thin-solar-cells/mit-paper-thin-solar-cell/
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> craag, I am well, thanks
[21:33] <craag> enkidu: Yeah, a solar-only solution would be very light!
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> laughing my butt off about this http://youtu.be/MHw1Ov4kAME?t=1m44s
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[21:33] <enkidu> not solar-only, but solar charged
[21:34] <craag> Yeah like Leo's lipos
[21:34] <craag> That is the way.
[21:34] <enkidu> ill look for high density power source tho
[21:35] <craag> As I say, I'm not planning any float flights with this, just a backup tracker that looks good :)
[21:35] <enkidu> my friend is working on graphene based cells and capacitors, I think, that it would be a good promotion to his team
[21:35] <craag> hmm if they're good at low temp, it would be!
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[21:35] <enkidu> for graphene ultracapacitors it just doestn matter - its physics
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> I think I even heard of the company
[21:36] <enkidu> batteries are behaving just as lithium or lead ones
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> in Warzaw I think
[21:36] <enkidu> it is actualy university laboratory but they are building small production line
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[21:37] <enkidu> anyways, even using bluetooth headset battery could be good
[21:38] <enkidu> controller board can be miniature - I think it is possible to make one coin sized
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[21:43] <enkidu> cell I have weight 3.5g
[21:43] <enkidu> regular lipo
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[21:44] <craag> What voltage/capacity?
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[21:45] <enkidu> 3.7/150mah
[21:48] <craag> That would be great for floats.
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[21:48] <craag> Maybe I'll design for LiSOCl cell so I could use one of those instead if I wanted.
[21:49] <enkidu> it is sp0405ac type
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[21:50] <craag> Hmm might even have one of those myself, in a mini rc helicopter somewhere
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> hi wb8elk_ what wires do you use for antennas ?
[21:57] <LeoBodnar> Any details or pictures of the WB8ELK ballon yet?
[21:57] <DL7AD> when B-11 and B-12 were flying, i found many contacts. for that purpose, i programmed a contact book that we can see, who we goona contact for the next time: http://dl7ad.de/contact_map.png
[21:58] <enkidu> craag: also I think about using graphene based solar cells. I have idea that my friend can make into reality - bottom layers capacitor, top - solar cell
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> DL7AD, cool!
[21:58] <enkidu> DL7AD: I will be here as long, I could be listening
[22:00] <DL7AD> the contact book is password secured ;) because of the personal data of the ham's
[22:00] <wb8elk_> probably have launched too close to sunset here...about 90 mins until sunset and now dropping out periodically
[22:01] <fsphil> yea that's causing those jumps
[22:01] <wb8elk_> I used# 22 wires to hook to the solar cell to give it some stiffness. Used an Arduino Micro board, a Sparkfun 434 MHz transmitter module and a UPU MAX-7C board.
[22:01] <wb8elk_> I'll post a photo in a few minutes
[22:02] <wb8elk_> I overinflated by 5 grams and could not get helium back out of the balloon?....is there a bladder inside that prevent this?
[22:03] <wb8elk_> so in addition to my 13 gram payload I had to add 5 more grams to make it go up at 1 m/s....so ended up with 18 gram underneath the 36" qualatex.
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[22:03] <fsphil> sorta
[22:03] <fsphil> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:filling_foil_balloons
[22:03] <fsphil> if the neck is folded then it'll stop the gas escaping
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[22:04] <wb8elk_> the problem was that I couldn't get any gas back out of the balloon after I overinflated it by 5 grams
[22:04] <fsphil> you'd need to push a small tube into it
[22:04] <wb8elk_> I did that and it didn't work
[22:04] <fsphil> all the way through that little bit of plastic
[22:05] <wb8elk_> it was quite a ways inside and then I hit a hard surface...maybe that was the bit of plastic then
[22:05] <fsphil> hmm
[22:05] <fsphil> it sounds like it was different from that photo
[22:05] <wb8elk_> I had it 3 inches inside the balloon
[22:06] <fsphil> it might get narrower near the end
[22:06] <wb8elk_> That was what I had exacly...I see now why I couldn't get gas out of the balloon I didn't have it pushed all the way through that inner plastic sheet
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[22:06] <fsphil> that could be what you hit
[22:06] <fsphil> yea
[22:06] <wb8elk_> yes I bet it was
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[22:07] <fsphil> a smaller tube or even a small straw
[22:07] <fsphil> might work
[22:07] <fsphil> one of those thin drinking straws
[22:07] <wb8elk_> I'm still getting telemetry...sun angle is getting low. Interesting enough even though the 3.3 V Arduino board and the transmitter are failing, the MAX-7C is maintaining lock since it works down to 1.8 V
[22:08] <wb8elk_> I used a drinking straw
[22:08] <LeoBodnar> wb8elk_: the valve is about 6-7" long
[22:08] <LeoBodnar> It has to go all the way past the valve
[22:08] <wb8elk_> Yes...that's why I couldn't get the helium back out of the balloon...didn't put the straw in far enough
[22:09] <wb8elk_> oh well...at least I
[22:09] <LeoBodnar> Then you suck Helium out and talk funny voice :)
[22:09] <LeoBodnar> While it lasts :)
[22:09] <wb8elk_> I tried that but couldn't get anything out .... no high-pitched voice this time
[22:09] <LeoBodnar> It's easier than squeezing it since it is limpy
[22:10] <wb8elk_> at least I'll see what 18 grams with 2.5 grams positive does.
[22:10] <wb8elk_> But I'm afraid that I'm not going to have enough sunlight to see if it floats
[22:10] <LeoBodnar> 2.5 grams should be OK
[22:10] <LeoBodnar> is it 36" foil?
[22:10] <fsphil> I was wondering at the conference,, if we left a fairly long tube attached to a foil -- would it act like a zero-pressure?
[22:10] <wb8elk_> I used a US penny....exactly 2.5 grams...neutrally buoyant with the penny on it
[22:10] <wb8elk_> yes...a 36" qualatex silver
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> http://electricsheep.me/McKenna2.jpg
[22:11] <LeoBodnar> And what is the total payload weight?
[22:12] <LeoBodnar> Oh, 18 grams i see
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[22:13] <LeoBodnar> My calcs show that it should spend the 1st night at 6000m
[22:13] <wb8elk_> 13 grams plus a 5 gram laminated reward sign
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> hello wb8elk_
[22:13] <wb8elk_> well...I was just at 5463 meters when the sun angle went too low...maybe it'll come back once more to see
[22:14] <LeoBodnar> Then it should stretch in the sun and rise to 7100m during the day
[22:14] <LeoBodnar> 2nd and further nights are expected to be at about 6600m
[22:15] <DL1SGP> yeah in any case based on the hysplit model we might be able to roughly estimate where you go to. and maybe you have luck on globaltuners then
[22:15] <LeoBodnar> Does it reset OK when power rises slowly?
[22:17] <LeoBodnar> I bought a bigger He cylinder this time and it is really difficult to control accurate gas flow for foils. It just opens so suddenly and violently.
[22:18] <LeoBodnar> One of these http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Helium-Helium-Cylinder-Helium-Gas-Balloon-Gas-10litre-200bar-/00/s/OTkzWDEwMDA=/$T2eC16V,!zQE9s3ssVhVBQrnj,JFb!~~60_1.JPG
[22:19] <wb8elk_> it came back again....seems to be slowing down a lot in ascent rate...so might be close to float
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[22:19] <LeoBodnar> Disposable cylinders are so much more appropriate for foil balloons inflation
[22:20] <LeoBodnar> Yeah, 5900-6000m float. We can check the payload weight from float altitude :)
[22:21] <LeoBodnar> How come it is AM modulated? What mode is the data?
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: you need to fly hydrogen
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> much lower diffusion
[22:22] <LeoBodnar> I am a bit worried
[22:23] <LeoBodnar> Lower? Counter-intuitive...
[22:23] <LeoBodnar> LiPo + Hydrogen...
[22:23] <wb8elk_> I used a party balloon tank...much easier than my large 300 cu ft tank
[22:23] <wb8elk_> inflated it in the kitchen instead of the barn
[22:23] <LeoBodnar> Disposable one?
[22:23] <wb8elk_> yes
[22:24] <adamgreig> there's so little hydrogen in the 36" balloons anyway
[22:24] <adamgreig> just a big squeaky pop if you managed to get it mixed up enough with oxygen
[22:24] <wb8elk_> 5944 meters now
[22:24] <LeoBodnar> I inflate in a quiet office and then take it out in a car.
[22:25] <wb8elk_> 0.3 m/s ascent rate...looks like it is about to float (or pop)
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> hydrogen is diatomic
[22:25] <LeoBodnar> Float
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> much larger molecules
[22:25] <wb8elk_> you can see it in the chart now...almost at float
[22:26] <LeoBodnar> Is the Sun still up?
[22:26] <wb8elk_> but sun too low so very intermittent reports now
[22:26] <wb8elk_> about an hour before sunset
[22:26] <LeoBodnar> Ah I see
[22:26] <wb8elk_> and going through some thin clouds
[22:26] <wb8elk_> so it is coming and going now
[22:27] <wb8elk_> I had to make a run to the local party store to get another tank since I was 3 grams too low of lift with what I had in the used tank....that delayed me too long
[22:27] <LeoBodnar> What is expected diffusion rate for He to lose 3 grams of He Laurenceb_ from a 36" balloon ? It's about 25% of gas.
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> its a bit hard to predict
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[22:28] <wb8elk_> a spur of the moment launch with a payload cobbled together from things I had on the workbench last night.
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> depends how much Al is on there
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: i predicted something like 20 days
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> with all the Al on there
[22:28] <LeoBodnar> That's the spirit wb8elk_ :D file payload docs 10 minutes in advance
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> from the ascent rate it looked like 15days or so
[22:29] <Laurenceb_> but it might crash with only 1gram or so of free lift
[22:29] <LeoBodnar> Consider all Al gone on the 2nd day
[22:29] <wb8elk_> I had a foil balloon sitting in the house with 2.5 grams free lift...it took about 4 days to lose 2.5 grams worth.
[22:29] <Laurenceb_> so maybe 10 days in reality
[22:29] <Laurenceb_> wb8elk_: well clearly B-11 was already way better than that
[22:29] <wb8elk_> more reports...6113 m now
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> i wonder if the pressure helps keep the valve closed
[22:30] <LeoBodnar> Ah good, it might come down a little but when it cools down
[22:30] <wb8elk_> yes...but this one I was measuring was not a qualatex...I'll do a test with a Qualatex one
[22:30] <SpeedEvil> wb8elk_: temperature I guess too is an influence. overpressure may seal the valve
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: dunno if B-11 could still be up
[22:30] <LeoBodnar> Still surprisingly airtight
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> probably borderline by now
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> with hydrogen it might last 3 weeks
[22:31] <LeoBodnar> Yes, stressed by daily cycles
[22:31] <LeoBodnar> Is H2 available in small tanks?
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> is anyone still listening for it?
[22:31] <wb8elk_> that's a good point about the overpressure sealing the vale
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> i dont knoq
[22:32] <LeoBodnar> B-11 is in Africa - I have done manual flightpath calculation by piecing day and night trajectories together considering altitude chages
[22:32] <LeoBodnar> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/19837_trj001.gif
[22:33] <LeoBodnar> It won't come out for another week
[22:33] <LeoBodnar> If B-12 still up it's heading for the US http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/126_trj001.gif
[22:33] <wb8elk_> I made it to 4500 m last week with two full inflated 36" balloons...one burst completely in half (and not around the seam part either). The other had leaked half its gas but no hole could be found.
[22:33] <Laurenceb_> i thought it was higher?
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> oh wait .. was i confusing it with B-12 ?
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> ah yeah i see now
[22:34] <LeoBodnar> B-12 is 8.5 g payload and day floats at 9400m
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[22:34] <wb8elk_> need to start listening on the west coast of the US soon
[22:34] <LeoBodnar> B-12 is in the jetstream
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> seems more chance of seeing B-12 :P
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> than 11
[22:35] <LeoBodnar> B-11 is stuck in Africa going nowhere fast
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> and 12 had more free lift
[22:35] <LeoBodnar> In fact they could both be deflated somewhere
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> 2 more days for 12
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> well yeah
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> we need more data
[22:35] <LeoBodnar> WHat was the payload on those wb8elk_ ?
[22:36] <Relman> As long as it doesn't drift into Syria and get claimed as a US spy balloon
[22:36] <LeoBodnar> Full inflated as in superpressured on the ground?
[22:36] <LeoBodnar> B-12 only works during the daytime just like yours wb8elk_ :D
[22:36] <wb8elk_> I flew an Arduino Mini board, a SparkFun 434 MHz transmitter module and a MAX-7C with a chip antenna.
[22:37] <wb8elk_> hooked to a powerfilmsolar solar cell
[22:37] <wb8elk_> As soon as I get the photo off of the iPhone I'll post it here.
[22:37] <LeoBodnar> Is it the flexible one? I think I have used one of them before
[22:38] <wb8elk_> yes...the very thin flexible one...it weighed 5 grams
[22:38] <LeoBodnar> I peeled protective film off it to make it lighter :p
[22:38] <wb8elk_> I'll try that for the next flight
[22:38] <wb8elk_> don't think I'll be getting any more reports. Sun angle too low
[22:39] <LeoBodnar> Goo is very difficult to get off so probably leave it on
[22:39] <wb8elk_> I hear the occasional beep
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> silicon cells are pretty light bare
[22:39] <LeoBodnar> What was the AM modulation carrying, RTTY?
[22:41] <LeoBodnar> I am not pushing the payload weight any lower because bare 36" qualatex without any payload will float at 10400m during the day.
[22:42] <LeoBodnar> So it gets progressively more difficult to gain another 1000m and it gets you right into cruise altitude of the jets
[22:43] <LeoBodnar> It's not that it's dangerous but wake turbulence is much heavier there. It can either push the balloon down into a dive or kick it up and it will burst.
[22:47] <wb8elk_> 110 baud RTTY
[22:47] <wb8elk_> AM modulation gets around having to chase it up and down the waterfall display.
[22:47] <LeoBodnar> Sun is still quite high, it might stretch balloon enough for it to float at slightly higher level
[22:47] <wb8elk_> always centered on 1100 Hz that way
[22:47] <LeoBodnar> I thought you will reach float with the sun down
[22:48] <LeoBodnar> AM is beautiful
[22:48] <wb8elk_> can you predict the float altitude based on my chart that is now on Spacenear?
[22:48] <wb8elk_> but for weak signal USB is better.
[22:49] <wb8elk_> but it sure is nice not to have to babysit dl-FLdigi throughout a flight
[22:49] <wb8elk_> how do you keep yours so stable in frequency?
[22:49] <LeoBodnar> Since it is now superpressured and still under the sunshine I'd say it will come down to about 6200m for the night. Meanwhile it will make little kick above that but not exceeding 7000m
[22:50] <LeoBodnar> I use 0.5ppm TCXO
[22:50] <SpeedEvil> phones make such fun stuff available
[22:51] <LeoBodnar> It's a common part, not an esoteric component anymore.
[22:51] <wb8elk_> which one did you use?...I use a VCXO to do my DominoEX and RTTY
[22:52] <wb8elk_> one hour before sunset here
[22:52] <wb8elk_> but no more reports....need a better sun angle than 15 degrees to make the board operate.
[22:52] <LeoBodnar> Does it restart OK when the light is on?
[22:53] <wb8elk_> yes...it has been restarting quite a bit the past hour
[22:53] <wb8elk_> the GPS has maintained lock since it works down to 1.8V (MAX-7C)
[22:53] <LeoBodnar> I did not expect B-12 to restart after battery failed but amazingly it did
[22:53] <LeoBodnar> AH, OK
[22:54] <wb8elk_> but the SparkFun 434 MHz SAW transmitter module will not work below 3 volts
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[22:54] <Laurenceb_> is WB8ELK updating?
[22:54] <LeoBodnar> My TCXO does not have a pull input. I think KT5TK uses VCTCXO
[22:54] <Laurenceb_> i see nothing
[22:55] <wb8elk_> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10534
[22:55] <LeoBodnar> That's a profound thought!
[22:55] <wb8elk_> That's what I will be using in the future a VCTCXO
[22:56] <wb8elk_> Very crude AM but it works...I hit it's data line on/off at 1000 Hz for a 1000 Hz AM modulated tone
[22:56] <wb8elk_> also get a little FM and WFM out of it as well doing that.
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> ook.
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[22:56] <WillTablet> Hi
[22:57] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: it's solar powered so cutting in a nd out
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> oh
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[22:57] <LeoBodnar> I have finally fixed my decoder and decoded your file Laurenceb_ :)
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> heh
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> down to what SNR?
[22:58] <LeoBodnar> Apparently whatever you gave me :)
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> the -15dB ?
[22:58] <LeoBodnar> -12dB on adamgreig scale
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> ah
[22:58] <LeoBodnar> dBa
[22:59] <LeoBodnar> And -27dB Audacity
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> http://filebin.ca/v0GPHekFMB7/gen-10db.wav
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[22:59] <LeoBodnar> So complete mess. Later becomes fair.
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> http://filebin.ca/v0FXGnzxQ1r/gen_.wav
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> thats -12.5
[23:00] <adamgreig> more solid filenames :P
[23:00] <adamgreig> how are you determining it's -12.5?
[23:00] <adamgreig> http://nbviewer.ipython.org/urls/randomskk.net/u/DominoEX.ipynb at the bottom has what I'm doing
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> its the HAM scale
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> over a 2.5KHz bandwidth
[23:01] <adamgreig> which 2.5kHz? DC to 2.5 or 500 to 3000?
[23:01] <LeoBodnar> crrrrrunching
[23:01] <adamgreig> and, ok. why must people use different scales, ugh.
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[23:01] <Laurenceb_> DC to 2.5
[23:02] <Laurenceb_> adamgreig: how are you defining it?
[23:02] <Laurenceb_> per bit?
[23:02] <adamgreig> no
[23:02] <adamgreig> over the whole vector
[23:02] <LeoBodnar> Apparently my petabrain laptop cannot guess that when I am writing if(SYNC==1) I actually mean if(SYNC==0)
[23:02] <Laurenceb_> i see
[23:02] <adamgreig> you can see in the code, it's basically integrating the signal and dividing by the length to get power in the signal
[23:02] <adamgreig> generate a noise vector, integrate that and divide by length to get noise power
[23:02] <adamgreig> that gives you the current power ratio
[23:02] <Laurenceb_> got it
[23:03] <adamgreig> then I scale the noise vector by the appropriate amount to set the new ratio
[23:03] <adamgreig> and add it to the signal
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> so you are using amplitude dB ?
[23:03] <adamgreig> power
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> ok
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[23:04] <Laurenceb_> in which case 12dB is good
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[23:04] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[23:04] <adamgreig> yea
[23:04] <adamgreig> very good
[23:04] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[23:04] <Laurenceb_> wtf
[23:04] <LeoBodnar> $$B-11,1234,456,12335.34,123,12,45
[23:04] <adamgreig> I can't get a correlation method to work at all, incidentally
[23:04] <adamgreig> if I literally take the samples that generated $$B-11
[23:04] <adamgreig> and try to correlate them over the signal
[23:04] <adamgreig> no results
[23:04] <LeoBodnar> Lol welcome to my world
[23:04] <adamgreig> so something's going a bit weird there
[23:05] <adamgreig> yea but it seems less likely I have an annoying typo
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> hmm this looks actually close to shannon
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> im confused
[23:05] <adamgreig> header = signal[1024:7168]; result = correlate(header, signal)
[23:05] <adamgreig> i mean there's not much room for typos!
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> Leobodnar: can you decode my -12.5dB ?
[23:06] <LeoBodnar> WHich one of them?
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> http://filebin.ca/v0FXGnzxQ1r/gen_.wav
[23:07] <LeoBodnar> $$B-11,1234,456,12335.34,123,12,45
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> hey not bad
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[23:07] <Laurenceb_> def better than fldigi
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[23:08] <LeoBodnar> Gimme more
[23:09] <LeoBodnar> There is something weird with few last chars because I am searching for triplets
[23:09] <LeoBodnar> I have not thought about it so last one or two chars might be off
[23:10] <Laurenceb_> just a sec
[23:10] <Laurenceb_> i have -15dB somewhere
[23:11] <Laurenceb_> http://filebin.ca/v9ma5JgBL2C/gen-15dB.wav
[23:18] <LeoBodnar> failed this one
[23:18] <Laurenceb_> ah
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> thats 5dB off from shannon
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> so not too close
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> looks like fldigi is pretty good at this
[23:20] <LeoBodnar> let me try something else
[23:24] <LeoBodnar> I think my modem freq range is too restrictive
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> i do wonder how much a modem which understood the 'spreading' from hard-switched FSK would improve things.
[23:33] <Laurenceb_> or not
[23:34] <Laurenceb_> i was thinking of blackmann-harris
[23:34] <Laurenceb_> to avoid crosstalk from interference nearby
[23:35] <LeoBodnar> It would probably pick up more noise if it kept searching for wider signal spectrum containing extra bw?
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> oh - sure
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> the above only helps in the event of a clean spectrum
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> With just noise
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> for any given power, i suspect that proper shaping will beat it - though i don't know this as i haven't done the maths
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> certailnly shaping helps if you use it to boost the amount of power getting through a narrowband filter over the singal at the far end to reject interfering signals
[23:37] <LeoBodnar> From physical perspective you don't bleed extra power through modulation harmonics?
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> if you have a 10mW transmitter - if you feed it a nice square RS232 signal to modulate it - you get 6mW in the actual signal, and 4mW in harmonics outside. (numbers made up)
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> If you tightly filter this - the you only see the 6mW
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> then
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> in principle, there is data in the 4mW signal too
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> ^square wave to a FSK transmitter with no input filter
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> Please note - i'm mostly asleep
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> this may be caused by too much cheese.
[23:40] <Laurenceb_> cheese grommit
[23:40] <LeoBodnar> So if you don't reject this BW in the RX you will pick up a lot more noise on the fringes then signal
[23:40] <adamgreig> well you're definitely better off shaping if you can. but if you know where to look for harmonics...
[23:41] <DL7AD> does anyone know when dave is going to launch the balloon tomorrow?
[23:42] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: perhaps - however it is signal - and it's got to be in principle usable. I don't know if it adds much though. Even in the optimal case, and clearly filtering at the send side is better
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[23:46] <Laurenceb_> looks like the dominoex is about 3 or 4dB better than fldigi with a secondary code
[23:46] <LeoBodnar> I am sure with properly designed detector on the RX side you will end up with the same efficiency.
[23:46] <LeoBodnar> As soon as you know where to look for signal spill-over and what is the ratio of harmonics to the main signal
[23:46] <Laurenceb_> fldigi is about as good without a secondary code... if you dont mind losing loads of the start of the packet
[23:47] <Laurenceb_> i guess this is one big advantage of the header search
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: Sounds logical - i keep thinking there is some bigger advantage though
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: i can't justify it even with handwaving though
[23:48] <LeoBodnar> It's like spread spectrum - you can steer around local point QRM easier
[23:49] <Laurenceb_> i still think this is all handwaving with 434mhz
[23:49] <Laurenceb_> as we arent going to get substantially over the horizon?
[23:49] <Laurenceb_> and it already goes to the horizon
[23:49] <LeoBodnar> My thinking as well.
[23:49] <Laurenceb_> and its probably not good enough for HF?
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> Quite
[23:50] <LeoBodnar> We are going to make a quantum leap from 400km RX zone to 420km
[23:50] <Laurenceb_> WSPR is 12dB better
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: i guess in principle you could use the 'spread' signal to ignore QRM, yeah
[23:50] <Laurenceb_> heh
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: :)
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: It's quite irrelevant in most cases - unless we suddenly decide to go for 10uW transmitters
[23:51] Action: Laurenceb_ zzz
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> night
[23:51] <LeoBodnar> Where free space signal loss beats horizon
[23:52] <LeoBodnar> good idea! good night!
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> or, of course, orbit.
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[23:53] <LeoBodnar> let's leave some problems for tomorrow, can't solve all of them tonight!
[23:53] <LeoBodnar> :D
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[00:00] --- Mon Sep 16 2013