highaltitude.log.20130914

[00:00] <mfa298> no, I'm not here, this is just a figment of your imagination ;)
[00:01] <G0TDJ_ALT> LOL mfa298
[00:01] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: there, CPMFSK is just as easy. http://nbviewer.ipython.org/urls/randomskk.net/u/CPMFSK.ipynb
[00:01] <WillTablet> mfa298 it seems I really need to figure out derivatives
[00:01] <G0TDJ_ALT> Do you know if there are any launches tomorrow?
[00:02] <mfa298> WillTablet: for understanding the link between distance, velocity and accelaration understanding differentiation and integration will probably help.
[00:02] <G0TDJ_ALT> errr, make that today
[00:03] <mfa298> G0TDJ_ALT: I'm not aware of any (XABEN was going to fly but I think that's now postponed)
[00:03] <G0TDJ_ALT> OK Cheers
[00:04] <WillTablet> I understand that velocity is delta x/delta t
[00:04] <adamgreig> which is basically the same thing as dx/dt
[00:04] <DanielRichman> lol
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[00:04] <WillTablet> I understand acceleration is delta v over delta t
[00:04] <mfa298> WillTablet: as a first part to understanding the link between them, if you have a graph showing velocity over time do you understand how from that graph you could get acceloration and distance.
[00:05] <G0TDJ_ALT> I think I'll go find a pilow - Good night all :-)
[00:05] <adamgreig> DanielRichman: do you like it when I replace deltas with ds :D
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[00:05] <adamgreig> sometimes I take dx/dt and treat it like a fraction
[00:05] <DanielRichman> D:
[00:05] <adamgreig> and multiply both sides by dt
[00:05] <WillTablet> Yeah, like taking the angle between them
[00:05] <adamgreig> and then add an integral sign because why not
[00:05] <adamgreig> and suddenly hurrah
[00:05] <DanielRichman> 10/10 legit
[00:05] <adamgreig> :D
[00:06] <adamgreig> the best part is how it then actually works
[00:06] <WillTablet> As for time, IDK
[00:06] <adamgreig> there's an smbc about that I think
[00:06] <WillTablet> *disrance
[00:07] <mfa298> if accelaration is the slope of the graph what might might be the total distance
[00:07] <mfa298> It could be the obvious thing you might be thinking of (even if you think the answer is too simple)
[00:08] <WillTablet> well it wouldn't be the slope of the slope so err
[00:08] <adamgreig> the slope of the slope of the velocity is the jerk :D
[00:09] <WillTablet> Oh
[00:09] <WillTablet> Erm
[00:09] <adamgreig> you already know you differentiate distance to get velocity, then differentiate again to get acceleration
[00:09] <mfa298> try going the other way,
[00:09] <adamgreig> and differentiation gets you the slope
[00:09] <WillTablet> Change in v / change in t
[00:09] <adamgreig> so how do you imagine you go from velocity back to distance?
[00:10] <WillTablet> dv/dt
[00:10] <adamgreig> dv/dt is acceleration
[00:11] <WillTablet> dt/dv
[00:11] <mfa298> if you want to try some numbers, if you did a constant speed of 2m/s, how far have you traveled after 1s, 2s, x seconds, then think of what that might look like on a graph against time.
[00:11] <Laurenceb_> i remember my a level physics exam
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[00:12] <Laurenceb_> we wrote messed up troll equations on a big banner
[00:12] <Laurenceb_> and hung it from a tree near the school
[00:12] <WillTablet> Yeah it'd look like a straight line,
[00:13] <mfa298> that's what it would look like.
[00:13] <WillTablet> Why is it I can't complain about my internet without a 'back in the day' or '56k' or 'BBS' mention?
[00:13] <WillTablet> Right...
[00:13] <mfa298> so after 1s how far do you go, then after 2s, and t seconds ?
[00:14] <WillTablet> 2t
[00:14] <WillTablet> 2,4,6,8,10,12,14 etc
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[00:14] <mfa298> from the graph you just described how could you see that distance on the graph.
[00:15] <WillTablet> OK..
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[00:16] <WillTablet> So err
[00:18] <mfa298> graph with axis of velocity and time, v=2, distance is 2t, does this remind you of a shape ?
[00:20] <WillTablet> A line?
[00:22] <mfa298> in this case there's a line for velocity, distance has a bit more substance to it.
[00:22] <WillTablet> Parabola
[00:23] <mfa298> I think you're over thinking this.
[00:24] <WillTablet> It's a line with a slope of 2
[00:25] <WillTablet> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2013-2014/0032/cbill_2013-20140032_en_2.htm oh I really hope this isn't enacted
[00:26] <mfa298> in my simple example its a constant velocity of 2, so that should be a horizontal line (velocity being on the Y axis and time on the x axis)
[00:29] <WillTablet> Oh yeah
[00:29] <WillTablet> I was thinking of an acceleration
[00:29] <WillTablet> OK so it's a line
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[00:30] <mfa298> how often do you define a line with a size of 2t?
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[00:32] <WillTablet> Once every t
[00:33] <WillTablet> IDK
[00:33] <WillTablet> I'm stupid
[00:33] <mfa298> I think the answer you were looking for was a rectangle
[00:34] <mfa298> which would have the edges of the speed and the time you're looking for.
[00:34] <WillTablet> So y=2x
[00:34] <mfa298> yes
[00:35] <WillTablet> I don't see any rectangles
[00:35] <mfa298> except in this case y is velocity and x is time
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[00:35] <WillTablet> Okay...
[00:36] <WillTablet> But rectangle????
[00:36] <mfa298> draw a line up the y axis, along the horizontal velocity line, down at a time and back along the x axis to the start.
[00:37] <mfa298> the size of the rectangle would be based on the velocity and the time
[00:37] <WillTablet> Oh now I follow
[00:37] <mfa298> remember at this point it's a really simple example.
[00:38] <WillTablet> Yeah, it's not that it is confusing just that I couldn't figure out what you mean
[00:38] <WillTablet> *meant
[00:38] <mfa298> IRC isn't the easiest method of doing this.
[00:39] <mfa298> in terms of the rectangle what property have we defined by the v=2t equation
[00:40] <mfa298> sorry, distance = 2t (2 being the velocity)
[00:40] <WillTablet> I don't know really
[00:40] <mfa298> just think in terms of simple shapes,
[00:41] <mfa298> one side is 2, one side is t, which property is 2 multiplied by t
[00:41] <WillTablet> Distance
[00:42] <WillTablet> Sorry I'm useless and not particularly intelligent at physics
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[00:42] <mfa298> yes, and which property of the rectangle is that (think basic shapes) ?
[00:43] <WillTablet> Area
[00:43] <mfa298> that's the one.
[00:43] <WillTablet> Ahhhaah
[00:44] <WillTablet> Now just need to figure how to differentiate and intergratre but not tonight
[00:44] <mfa298> so in a more general form, if you have a graph of speed, the distance travelled is the area under the graph, and accelaration is the slope of the graph
[00:45] <mfa298> hopefully if you think about it you can also see a similarity between this and the cone example you had a couple of weeks ago.
[00:46] <mfa298> and you managed to do the integration of velocity with rspect to time in the simple case of v=2 earlier.
[00:47] <mfa298> and if you've got a formula of distance =2t, applying differentiation of dv/dt of v=2t you get to a speed of 2.
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[00:48] <mfa298> learning the rules of differntiation and integration would be the next step. It might take a bit of practice though.
[00:49] <mfa298> and remember, most of us did this stuff at A level, not when we were 13. We also had someone teaching it to us with a blackboard/whiteboard.
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[01:09] <SpeedEvil> It's not fundamentally hard.
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> There are just several rules to remember.
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> I would recommned Khan academy
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> Also - sleep is important
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[03:41] <batchoy> Anyone awake?
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[03:58] <zs260> hi guys, i'm planning a launch on Sunday early morning ,north Texas, got FAA notified and cleared& its my first launch, kinda nervous about the recovery& any pointers and suggestions? how to approach farm lands etc?
[03:59] <batchoy> No experience, I'm just preping for my first lanch as well
[04:01] <zs260> whereabouts?
[04:01] <batchoy> UK
[04:01] <batchoy> Hertfordshire
[04:02] <batchoy> If the forecast clear window in the weather comes accross in about 2hrs time
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[04:24] <batchoy> Anyone awake who can approve flight documents?
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[04:59] <batchoy> Anyone awake who can approve flight documents?
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[05:23] <batchoy> Anyone awake who can approve flight documents?
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[05:25] <batchoy> Anyone awake who can approve flight documents?
[05:26] <heathkid> no
[05:28] <heathkid> but good luck with your launch...
[05:44] <Upu> yes
[05:45] <Upu> link flight doc
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[05:55] <wb8elk> zs260...where are you in Texas...lots of experienced balloon folks there that may be able to help track and recovery your flight
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[06:27] <vk4tec> < test >
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[07:20] <Chetic> I get this when I start dl-fldigi: http://i.imgur.com/c3TnlOo.png
[07:20] <Chetic> or fldigi
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[07:20] <Chetic> it was working yesterday though
[07:21] <Chetic> wish I had more debugging capabilities
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[07:25] <darkstar-2001> Chetic: Its does something similar to me on Linux as well. On Linux I fix it by renaming the directory/folder that hold the personal preferences (~/.dl-fldigi for linx, not sure where that is for windows)
[07:28] <Chetic> it's in c:\users\chetic\
[07:28] <Chetic> and yeah I tried that
[07:29] <Chetic> no luck
[07:29] <Chetic> I almost suspect it's hiding settings somewhere else as well
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[07:29] <enkidu> registry
[07:30] <DL1SGP> Good Morning everyone.
[07:33] <DL1SGP> news from Mr Trappe: http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/ID/2406171527/
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[07:52] <Chetic> nope, looked through the registry as well
[07:52] <Chetic> guess I'll have to set up so I can compile dl-fldigi
[07:52] Action: Chetic cries
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[08:15] <enkidu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/trajplot_17104.pdf
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[09:25] <Chetic> is it typical for a usb dongle's crystal to take some time before converging to it's proper frequency?
[09:26] <joph> how much time?
[09:26] <Chetic> a couple of minutes I think
[09:26] <enkidu> Chetic: it is. drift is related to temperature
[09:26] <Chetic> ah of course
[09:26] <Chetic> is it because it uses some thermistor internally?
[09:27] <enkidu> it needs to heat up. Of course you can try using external time source as described on rtl sdr page
[09:27] <Chetic> I don't think that will be necessary but good to know!
[09:27] <enkidu> no, because quartz resonator is mechanical resonator?
[09:27] <Chetic> I don't know how resonators work
[09:28] <enkidu> you can try calibration with cell tower
[09:28] <enkidu> http://www.rtl-sdr.com/replacing-the-low-quality-28-8-mhz-oscillator-on-the-rtl-sdr/
[09:28] <Chetic> is calibration important?
[09:29] <enkidu> if you want to know exact frequency - yes
[09:29] <Chetic> I just want to receive rtty
[09:29] <Chetic> from 30km altitude
[09:29] <enkidu> still I have calibrated my dongle without gsm network - using radiosondes
[09:29] <enkidu> they report its frequency, so I could tune ppm offset
[09:30] <mfa298> Chetic: Calibration will mean the frequency you read from the sdr will match the real frequency, without calibrartion it could be a few khz off
[09:30] <enkidu> oc you can look for another crystal that would be more stable
[09:31] <mfa298> it doesn't affect the ability to receive just gives a more accurate frequency readout
[09:31] <Chetic> alright, I'll skip calibration then
[09:32] <Chetic> it's not a scientific project, just trying to snap a pic
[09:32] <bertrik> In my experience the usb dongle crystal ppm error is quite stable (after a few minutes)
[09:32] <enkidu> so just make sure, temperature is stable, so it wont drift
[09:33] #highaltitude: mode change '-o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[09:33] <Chetic> if only my car's AC wasn't broken :P
[09:33] <enkidu> bertrik: in my experience too, but I cant open window near my PC
[09:33] <mfa298> it can be worth getting an idea of how close the calibration is. Especially if you want to tell other people what frequency to listen on.
[09:33] <Chetic> ah that's a good point
[09:35] <enkidu> I will need for example ceramic resonator for my IF-IF converter, but most of them have 30ppm drift
[09:36] <Chetic> what's an IF-IF converter?
[09:37] <enkidu> I need it for my tuner so Ill turn it into sdr frontend
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[09:37] <Chetic> turn what into an sdr frontend?
[09:38] <enkidu> AM tuner
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[10:24] <nats`> first board working
[10:25] <nats`> I got the lesson care about soldermask to be able to do oven soldering :)
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[10:29] <enkidu> nice :) remember, that you will need soldermask resistant to zinc chloride
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[10:37] <nats`> https://twitter.com/natsfr/status/378829693606043648/photo/1 <= enkidu :)
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[10:38] <nats`> zinc chloride ?
[10:38] <nats`> I don't know I use industrial board
[10:38] <nats`> I don't know many things in chemistry only basis like ENIG H2SO4 for chip decaping and stuff like that :)
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[10:46] <enkidu> =]
[10:46] <enkidu> zinc chloride is in smt alloys
[10:48] <enkidu> its pretty cold outside
[10:48] <nats`> oky enkidu but I guess that by default all soldermask from industrial board are immune to that
[10:49] <nats`> I never had problem with the solderpaste in oven
[10:49] <nats`> and yes it's cold here too
[10:49] <enkidu> not really immune, but it can withstand it
[10:49] <enkidu> I have seen peters soldermas rolling from ground plane tho
[10:50] <nats`> peters ?
[10:50] <enkidu> most often used one
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[10:50] <nats`> ohh oky a brand :)
[10:50] <nats`> I stopped doing my PCB 2 years ago
[10:51] <nats`> when I discovered really cheap manufacturer for hobbyist
[10:51] <nats`> I think I'll sell some of my pcb making stuff
[10:51] <nats`> homemade pcb becomes tricky and boring whe you go for high density SMD
[10:51] <DL1SGP> 15.1c outside, greetings nats`
[10:51] <enkidu> sometimes I am making own PCBs when I have no time for ordering
[10:51] <nats`> thx DL1SGP :)
[10:52] <nats`> enkidu what manufacturer you use for personnal stuff ?
[10:52] <enkidu> local one
[10:52] <nats`> I used seeedstudio but I tried OSHPARK for this batch and their constraint are really interesting
[10:52] <nats`> 127µm for clearance and trace width
[10:52] <nats`> 254µm drill
[10:52] <enkidu> large
[10:53] <nats`> 457µm via
[10:53] <enkidu> ;]
[10:53] <nats`> yep but one of the smallest for hobby
[10:53] <nats`> if I end up with a really important PCB I'll ask at work but not the same price
[10:53] <enkidu> I will order some stuff in few weeks - I am designing some stuff in "plug-in" architecture
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[10:54] <nats`> you already know what PCB manufacturer ?
[10:55] <enkidu> techno-service, local manufacturer. good quality, also I can order one full frame in industrial quality
[10:55] <darkstar-2001> What was the quality like from OSHPARK? I've ordered some, but they won't turn up for a few weeks yet?
[11:01] <Tramvai> Hello.
[11:01] <DL1SGP> Hello Tramvai
[11:01] <Tramvai> I need some help with my information transmissions again. :)
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[11:03] <Tramvai> Here's what I have: sprintf(datastring,"$$EES,%d,%ld,%d", Fix, Alt, Sats); All variables, Fix, Alt, Sats are integers and serial prints them all currently as 0, due to no lock, but the radio transmits 'Sats' as a random value ranging from 12000 to 150000.
[11:03] <Tramvai> What would cause this?
[11:04] <Tramvai> Using TinyGPS, I got the satellite number using the function gps.sats();
[11:05] <daveake> Anyone remember how to get an AVRISP MkII running on Arduino? Getting 'did not find any USB device "USB"'
[11:06] <daveake> Ages since I did this before
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[11:09] <daveake> Thanks for the help guys; figured it out :p
[11:10] <zyp> permissions?
[11:10] <enkidu> fusebits?
[11:11] <daveake> nah it had ther "Jungo" driver installed; had to replace that
[11:12] <Chetic> woohoo! I'm receiving ascii!
[11:13] <Chetic> something tells me it's not supposed to be this messy though: http://i.imgur.com/6xjLApH.png
[11:13] <Chetic> the transmitter has no antenna, is that it?
[11:13] <Chetic> ntx2
[11:13] <nats`> darkstar-2001 at first sight I would say OSHPARK is clearly great quality
[11:14] <nats`> I compare with seeedstudio, hole are really centered ENIG finish by default cool purple color really more interesting constraint on routing
[11:14] <nats`> I would compare osh park with pcb-pool but at better price
[11:15] <nats`> enkidu your local manufacturer must have a high price no ?
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[11:18] <enkidu> it has, at is it industrial mainly
[11:18] <zyp> oshpark is pretty good, but the via spec is a bit strict
[11:18] <zyp> and the silk is not so good
[11:18] <enkidu> I have one for hobbyist too, but they cannot even properly make PCB for atmega
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[11:22] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/TgK0Q.JPG <- example of oshpark silk (excuse the dust, the board had been sitting for a year before I took the picture)
[11:22] <enkidu> screen printed
[11:22] <nats`> enkidu try oshpark I think
[11:22] <nats`> zyp I agree with silkscreen
[11:22] <nats`> but it's not that important
[11:22] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/E08pl.JPG <- and here's how good silk can look
[11:23] <enkidu> nats`: sometimes it is
[11:23] <zyp> nats`, true, the via specs is worse
[11:23] <nats`> uhhmm are you sure the silckscreen polic you used is one for gerber ?
[11:23] <nats`> police
[11:23] <nats`> I had the same problem with a massive manufacturer at work
[11:23] <nats`> I took a bad police in mentor and they got some pointy silk
[11:24] <nats`> anyway the silk removal over covered via is crappy
[11:24] <zyp> the board in the other pic can't be done at oshpark, the smallest oshpark vias wouldn't fit between the bga pads
[11:24] <nats`> uhhmm lfbga or bga
[11:25] <enkidu> sometimes you just have to use BGA
[11:25] <nats`> because in fact if you use non official osh park rules you can do bga but not lfbga
[11:25] <zyp> lfbga?
[11:25] <nats`> you can go trough 1mm bga
[11:25] <nats`> yes
[11:25] <zyp> no
[11:25] <zyp> this is 1mm bg
[11:25] <zyp> bga
[11:25] <nats`> lfbga is 0.8mm pitch
[11:25] <nats`> oky so you can :)
[11:25] <nats`> I did it
[11:27] <nats`> in fact with 4 layers unofficial rules you have 457+127+127+127
[11:28] <nats`> 838µm for via and trace and clearance
[11:28] <nats`> you go between 1mm pitch
[11:28] <nats`> but not between LFBGA crappy pitch
[11:28] <zyp> hmm, oshpark vias are 27mil diameter minimum, then 6 mil spacing on either side, so you need an empty area with a diameter of 39mil, 1mm pitch is 55mil diagonal, so that leaves only 16mil diameter for the pads
[11:28] <zyp> going by the official specs
[11:28] <nats`> yep but forgot about this one :)
[11:29] <nats`> they can do better in fact a friend asked and I do my board with that now
[11:29] <nats`> and best they can use those 4 layers spec on 2 layers too
[11:29] <zyp> right
[11:29] <nats`> let me convert the rules I have in mil
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[11:30] <zyp> also, keep in mind I'm not talking about the rules for tracks between pads, they are fine
[11:30] <zyp> I'm talking about the vias underneath the bga
[11:30] <nats`> 18 mil via / 10 mil drill / 5mil trace| clearance
[11:30] <nats`> they are the same
[11:30] <zyp> oh, they do 18?
[11:30] <nats`> let me take a picture of a board from a friend
[11:31] <nats`> mine is not here
[11:31] <zyp> that's a lot better than the 27 mil official figure :p
[11:31] <nats`> yep that becomes near "professional" standard for simple pcb
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[11:37] <nats`> zyp I go launch but I'll post a microscope picture just after :)
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[11:38] <zyp> no problem, I believe you
[11:39] <Tramvai> Generating the payload file - what type does latitude and longitude have to be? Integer?
[11:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> Tramvai, Try #habhub if no answers here maybe ?
[11:41] <Tramvai> Come on guys, it should be simple question for you
[11:41] <Tramvai> I used long in my code
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[11:42] <daveake> Tramvai everyone uses float however you can use an int
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[11:42] <Tramvai> Ah, okay, I'll go for float then
[11:43] <Willdude123> I just got banned from an IRC channel because I was muted and asked why in a PM
[11:43] <daveake> Makes it easier when you're chasing and need to type the location in to your satnav
[11:45] <fsphil> we should have the payload transmit postcodes
[11:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> Wow I didn't know that Posties would collect and deliver ;-)
[11:46] <fsphil> stamped addressed parcel :)
[11:47] <mikestir> these max6s do not cold start well
[11:47] <mikestir> I have one outside on the garden table and it still hasn't got a fix after 20 minutes
[11:47] <mikestir> but once it gets one I can bring it inside and continue to get a fix in an interior room a good 10 feet from any window
[11:48] <fsphil> I think it can take up to about 20 minutes to download the data from the satellites
[11:48] <mikestir> I thought it could get a fix before downloading the whole lot, or is that only in ideal conditions?
[11:49] <mikestir> they're impressively sensitive once they get going anyway!
[11:49] <fsphil> google says it's 12.5 minutes
[11:49] <fsphil> but I've seen it get a lock from cold in just a few minutes
[11:49] <fsphil> not sure how that works
[11:53] <fsphil> ordering cheap parts from RS sucks.. now need to buy something to make the postage worth it :)
[11:54] <craag> I get a lock from cold in less than a minute with the max6s
[11:54] <craag> I don't think it needs to download the whole data, that just improves the DOP
[11:55] <fsphil> does it store the almanac in flash I wonder?
[11:55] <craag> Not as far as I'm aware
[11:55] <mikestir> I don't think they store anything unless you provide a backup supply
[11:55] <craag> You can send it the almanac as 'AssistNow Offline'
[11:55] <craag> but you need to send it every time it boots with no backup
[11:56] <mikestir> wtf I just brought it inside and it got a fix
[11:56] <craag> haha
[11:57] <craag> GPS can be weird, I get better fixes on the inside-side of my room than on the windowsill.
[11:57] <mikestir> maybe something was interfering
[11:57] <mikestir> seems unlikely though, and it had a good clear view outside
[11:58] <craag> what antenna are you using?
[11:58] <mikestir> it's the chip one from Upu on one of his breakouts
[11:58] <craag> Ok, those do give me a fix in less than a minute in open space.
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[11:59] <fsphil> badly position satellites maybe
[11:59] <mikestir> could be. it's got a 6 sat fix indoors now
[11:59] <mikestir> 7
[11:59] <craag> yeah, could have been a faulty satellite throwing it off
[11:59] <craag> The almanac contains data about those I believe, so once it's got that, it can cope fine.
[12:00] <craag> Yeah I've had my chip-antenna boards hold a 5 sat lock fine in the freezer, they're amazing once locked.
[12:00] <Willdude123> Is there a place on Freenode to report ops who are dickheads?
[12:00] <craag> Willdude123: No, just avoid the channels..
[12:01] <mikestir> 5 sats inside a metal box is pretty good going
[12:01] <Willdude123> Oh but I like physics
[12:01] <craag> Find another physics channel, there's gotta be one.
[12:02] <mikestir> so what makes habhub decide "_fix_invalid": true?
[12:02] <Willdude123> At first it was just because I struggled with something
[12:02] <Willdude123> Then he quieted me.
[12:02] <craag> mikestir: Have you got something in the sentence that indicates when the GPS has a lock? like number of satellites?
[12:02] <Willdude123> Then I PMed him, and he banned me because I PMed him without asking on the channel.
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[12:03] <mikestir> craag: yes. I also zero out the time/position data if the fix is invalid. is that sensible? what does everyone else generally do?
[12:04] <craag> mikestir: THat's not advisable, as if you lose decodes, then your gps loses lock, you don't have a last-known-position.
[12:04] <craag> Most people report a number of satellites
[12:04] <craag> With '0' being no lock.
[12:04] <mikestir> so send actual number of sats, last know time/position, and keep incrementing the sentence id?
[12:04] <Willdude123> I'm going to fail my course now :(
[12:04] <craag> Yep that
[12:04] <craag> 's it
[12:05] <mikestir> ok. and the payload doc is set up for "sends this sentence if no lock". do I need to tweak that so it looks at nsats?
[12:05] <craag> Also means you can know if it's got a good lock at launch (>7 sats) or is struggling for some reason (<4)
[12:05] <Willdude123> craag, you back at uni?
[12:05] <craag> mikestir: Yes you will, take a look at the '868MHz Fizzle' for an example
[12:05] <mikestir> I'm using the numsv from NAV_SOL, which only seems to show number of sats used for solution rather than sats in view, so it would never show less than 4 (except for 0) in flight mode
[12:06] <Willdude123> ping mfa298
[12:06] <craag> Ah yes, 4 probably means it's struggling then
[12:06] <craag> I use NAV SOL as well
[12:07] <craag> Willdude123: Nope, Uni doesn't start till the end of the month
[12:07] <Willdude123> Lucky :)
[12:07] <craag> I'm working instead!
[12:07] <mikestir> ok ta. I'll stop it from blanking the position data and that should be it sorted. habhub seems happy with it apart from ignoring the fix
[12:08] <Willdude123> Eurgh. I have nowhere to ask for physics help anymore, not that ##physics was any good
[12:08] <Willdude123> Actually I might quit this course.
[12:08] <craag> Hmm I need to find somewhere to get a GPS module by this wkend :/
[12:09] <craag> *next weekend
[12:09] <Willdude123> I need to do stuff like differentiation.
[12:09] <Willdude123> And intergration.
[12:09] <mfa298> Hi Willdude123 (I'm appearing and disappearing at the moment)
[12:09] <Willdude123> IDK. I've quit so many courses because they were too hard
[12:10] <Willdude123> I'm thinking, I need to learn all the differentiation and intergration stuff before I can do this physics course really.
[12:10] <Willdude123> So maybe I should quit the course and learn more math
[12:10] <mfa298> Willdude123: some of this stuff might seem hard but it should make sense if you keep at it.
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[12:11] <Willdude123> It doesn't though, really. Still not all too sure how I got -6+2t.
[12:11] <Willdude123> I'll look over the lecture(s) a few more times
[12:11] <mfa298> try spending a few hours with some stuff on differentiation
[12:12] <mfa298> the rules on how to do it (for the level you're using at the moment) are relativly easy.
[12:12] <enkidu> any idea how could I use gqrx to dump two nfm stream at once?
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[12:15] <Willdude123> Okay.. So what's good reading material on differentiation?
[12:17] <mfa298> I can't help you there, I was taught it many years ago.
[12:17] <mfa298> there might be some good tutorials online
[12:18] <Willdude123> Erm OK. I'll google it, ask about it in ##math and then get banned from there as well.
[12:18] <Willdude123> (after playing BF3)
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[12:18] Nick change: Willdude123 -> Will|BF3
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[12:34] <Chetic> payload antenna question: should I cut away the braid and use single-core wire, or untwist the braid and use that for radials?
[12:34] <Chetic> I've seen both, but is either significantly better?
[12:34] <Darkside> dpnds what you're doing with the radials
[12:34] <Darkside> singl core wire is less floppy
[12:36] <Chetic> ok but transmission quality should be about the same?
[12:37] <Darkside> yeah
[12:37] <Chetic> nice, I'll see which one fits me best
[12:37] <mfa298> trying to seperate out the braid for radials can be a pain to do - I've tried it a couple of times and given up.
[12:38] <S_Mark> Chetic: http://www.stratodean.co.uk/2013/04/the-gps-tracker.html bottom of that post
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[12:38] <Chetic> yeah that's what I'm hoping to go for
[12:38] <Chetic> gonna see if I have the patience/motor skills
[12:38] <S_Mark> yes patience is very key
[12:39] <S_Mark> takes hours
[12:39] <S_Mark> to do one
[12:41] <x-f> 1.5 hours :>
[12:42] <Chetic> did 5cm just now to test
[12:42] <Chetic> no problem really
[12:42] <Chetic> how important is it that the amount of braid is equally distributed?
[12:43] <Darkside> not at all
[12:43] <Darkside> well
[12:43] <Darkside> within rason anyway
[12:43] <Darkside> reason*
[12:43] <Chetic> excellent
[12:43] <Chetic> I'll put on some game of thrones and get started then
[12:43] <Chetic> like knitting
[12:43] <Darkside> lol
[12:44] <Darkside> don't poke yourself too badly, else ther'll be a red wedding in your living room
[12:44] <Chetic> lol no spoilers!
[12:44] <Darkside> :P
[12:45] <Hix> will any high gain 2.4GHz antenna work for extending wireless network range, or are they specific?
[12:46] <Darkside> shouldn't matter too much
[12:46] <Hix> cool - thought so , wanted to be sure
[12:46] <Darkside> are you trying to extend it in all directions?
[12:46] <Darkside> or just in one direction
[12:46] <Hix> I've seen Yagi tests. maybe it was you Darkside
[12:46] <Darkside> dunno
[12:47] <Darkside> i've used some cheap yagis
[12:47] <Darkside> they didnt work very well
[12:47] <Hix> not sure yet. A friend asked me if I could install power ethernet system, this method seemed more simple and cost effective
[12:47] <Darkside> yeah
[12:47] <Darkside> ubiquiti makes good wifi gear
[12:47] <Hix> cool
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[12:47] <Darkside> their nanostations are great
[12:47] <Darkside> they are basically a sector AP
[12:47] <Hix> cheers Darkside
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[12:49] <mikestir> +1 for ubiquiti - used their unifi system
[12:49] <Darkside> i've got a 2.4GHz nanobridge waiting to go on teh roof
[12:50] <Darkside> to connect to the local community wifi network
[12:54] <mikestir> I've got some 5GHz (not ubiquiti) bridges that I'm intending to put it for off-site backup
[12:54] <mikestir> need to get a roof ladder though
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> mikestir: Or a big balloon.
[12:55] <mikestir> *put up
[12:55] <mikestir> lol
[12:56] <mikestir> well my 1 year old is current obsessed with my indoor helicopter, so if that develops it might be a good way to increase the wife acceptance factor of a quadcopter :)
[12:56] <mikestir> currently*
[12:57] <DL1SGP> that sounds like a great plan mikestir
[13:00] <mikestir> I should clarify that he doesn't yet fly the helicopter himself!
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[13:33] <chrisstubbs> HAHA I sent giffgaff a question about getting a public IP for my 3g router and this was the reply:
[13:33] <chrisstubbs> you know us girls don't really spend that much time playing Call of Duty but our brothers and boyfriends are never done playing and they mentioned that term [port forwarding] in the past.
[13:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> Humm Could be interesting http://www.evolvesociety.org/network/index.php?do=/about/
[13:38] <Steve_2e0vet> can anyone suggest infrared sensors for the arduino (to build an alarm)
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[13:41] <SpeedEvil> Steve_2e0vet: Do you mean passive infrared - thermal - to detect warm bodies or zombies that are on fire, or beam-break
[13:42] <Steve_2e0vet> SpeedEvil, beam break
[13:42] <M6PFX> zombies
[13:43] <Steve_2e0vet> so i know when the crims move my cctv camera
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> infrared remote control detectors are pretty handy. You ffed them with a 38khz chopped IR signal, and they mostly ignore background light
[13:44] <Steve_2e0vet> that seems a bit to advance for me lol
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> Why not simply secure the camera?
[13:46] <Steve_2e0vet> they come and move it, its pretty easy with a bit of force
[13:46] <DL7AD> what the hell is this? ..... on the map...
[13:47] <DL1SGP> map?
[13:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> I think its SPEARS having a GPS prolem ;-)
[13:48] <DL1SGP> that is spears trying to find a gps fix I guess :D
[13:48] <Hix> daveake might be worth trying to get hold of cyclops to help track he was in spain iirc
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> Steve_2e0vet: So put a switch to detect movement
[13:49] <daveake> Hix I did ask him a while back but he's not close enough
[13:49] <Hix> ah, bugger
[13:49] <Steve_2e0vet> thats the sort of thing i am looking for (or to make
[13:49] <Hix> daveake could still be a useful point of call for rallying spanish hams [not serrano]
[13:50] <daveake> Yep
[13:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> Steve_2e0vet, Can't you use the camera itself when a large % of pixels change to tell you ?
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> Steve_2e0vet: what is the camera connected to
[13:52] <craag> Oh lol, that's the worst GPS-walk I've seen in a while!
[13:52] <Will|BF3> Right need to read up on differentiation and intergration. No clue where though
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[13:53] <SpeedEvil> Will|BF3: Kahn academy
[13:53] <Hix> Will|BF3
[13:53] <Hix> https://www.dropbox.com/s/id3t4tddsopfyy6/Calculus.pdf
[13:53] Nick change: Will|BF3 -> Will|NotBF3
[13:53] <daveake> SPEARS is Upu's code it Tx's GPS data even if said data is shite.
[13:53] <daveake> Just needs a filter in habhub
[13:53] <Hix> & https://www.dropbox.com/s/mga2rd0ieybbo9n/Basic%20Engineering%20Mathematics%205th%20ed%20-%20J.%20Bird%20%28Newnes%2C%202010%29%20BBS.pdf Will|NotBF3
[13:53] <craag> Ah ok
[13:53] <daveake> I've asked him about it
[13:53] <daveake> The other trackers are my code which doesn't do that
[13:54] <Will|NotBF3> Wait when is the actual LOHAN launch?
[13:54] <Hix> Mon
[13:54] <daveake> test
[13:54] <daveake> Monday is a test flight
[13:54] <daveake> Real launch later in the week
[13:54] <G0TDJ_Steve> What size is the test flight daveake ?
[13:55] <daveake> About <------------------------> much
[13:55] <adamgreig> pretty chunky!
[13:55] <daveake> Alt? Weight?
[13:55] <G0TDJ_Steve> LOL... Do you think any of us southeners will have a chance of hearing it?
[13:55] <daveake> Safe to say both flights are outside of my usual range :p
[13:55] <daveake> 33km burst
[13:56] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'll be watching with interest anyway
[13:56] <daveake> UK will be too far, but have a look for any globaltuners
[13:56] <G0TDJ_Steve> I keep forgetting them - great idea
[13:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> daveake,Are the launchs from the current position ?
[13:57] <Will|NotBF3> Thanks Hix
[13:57] <daveake> Oh dear, the others have opened the Dremel case. This might go bad ...
[13:57] <Steve_2e0vet> SpeedEvil, the camera is an IP camera attached to my DVR, but i cannot use the alarm function on that as it would be going off all night with cats and stuff
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[13:57] <daveake> Launch site is 40.42187, -5.30084
[13:58] <daveake> However, current predictions have it landing in the mountains so we may go further north
[13:58] <enkidu> wth is this modern art on map?
[13:58] <daveake> As we don't need a notam for this first one and it's not densely populated, we can choose our own launch spot :p
[13:59] <enkidu> 4x1rf could start looking for B11
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[13:59] <Will|NotBF3> Ooh this is complicated. I just feel like sending a load of NACK packets to the book.
[13:59] <Will|NotBF3> Or am I just stupid?
[13:59] <craag> daveake: Do you want me to add a satellite-number filter to the SPEARS payload doc?
[14:00] <adamgreig> Will|NotBF3: at the end of the day differentiation is fairly ok for most simple functions
[14:00] <adamgreig> you just do each term being added totally separately, and add the results at the end...
[14:00] <Will|NotBF3> Given f (x) = 3x3 +2x2 3x +2, prove that
[14:00] <Will|NotBF3> f (1) = 1
[14:00] <Will|NotBF3> 7
[14:00] <Will|NotBF3> f (2).
[14:00] <adamgreig> and for each term being added you just follow a couple of rules
[14:00] <daveake> craag yes please
[14:00] <Will|NotBF3> Didn't copy well.
[14:00] <adamgreig> oh uhm that's just a case of plugging numbers in?
[14:00] <Will|NotBF3> Hrm
[14:01] <Will|NotBF3> Ah OK
[14:01] <Geoff-G8DHE> Steve try TinCam its quite good.
[14:01] <G0TDJ_Steve> craag: I'm soak-testing a payload (Vayu), let me know if it's going to be a problem and I'll do it some other time.
[14:01] <craag> G0TDJ_Steve: Not an issue
[14:01] <G0TDJ_Steve> Cool
[14:03] <craag> daveake: Done I believe.
[14:04] <craag> Copied the test from one of Upu's PAVA docs. (if satellites in [4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13] then ok)
[14:05] <Will|NotBF3> I find f(1) to be 0
[14:05] <Will|NotBF3> Therefore it can not be 1/7th
[14:05] <Will|NotBF3> of f92)
[14:05] <Will|NotBF3> *f(2)
[14:05] <Will|NotBF3> http://pastie.org/8325445
[14:05] <Will|NotBF3> I hate maths. :(
[14:05] Nick change: Will|NotBF3 -> Willdude123
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[14:06] <Willdude123> Arrgh
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[14:07] <Willdude123> adamgreig, any ideas?
[14:07] <Willdude123> I'm useless at this.
[14:08] <adamgreig> Willdude123: check your working on that pastie
[14:08] <adamgreig> you've made a fairly simple mistake
[14:09] <mikestir> craag: any chance you could add that filter to my payload doc as well please? I think that's probably the only thing that's wrong with it. doc is "WGGS HAB"
[14:09] <craag> mikestir: sure
[14:09] <mikestir> there's already a satellites field
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[14:09] <Willdude123> adamgreig, Probably a BOMDSA issue
[14:09] <Willdude123> :)
[14:09] <Willdude123> I know it's BODMAS. :)
[14:09] <mattbrejza> personally i send zero length fields for when the lock type field says invalid lock
[14:10] <daveake> Cheers craag will test in a mo
[14:10] <adamgreig> Willdude123: not even that really I don't think :P did you find it?
[14:10] <adamgreig> it's simpler than that
[14:10] <Willdude123> Forgot the powers
[14:10] <daveake> The Register's mountain lair online now - http://www.batc.tv/streams/regspb
[14:10] <craag> mikestir: You've got an 'invalid_always' in there, was that to stop it appearing on the map?
[14:10] <adamgreig> 1^x is always equal to 1
[14:11] <mikestir> thanks craag. you also said you use NAV_SOL. do you take any steps to ensure that the other packets have the same iTOW, or do you just poll and accept what you're given?
[14:11] <mikestir> craag: no. not sure why that's there
[14:11] <Willdude123> Ah that's true so they don't count
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[14:11] <YU1TTN> any sign of SP3OSJ balloon?
[14:11] <craag> mikestir: Ok I've taken that out and added the filter.
[14:11] <craag> done
[14:12] <mikestir> thanks
[14:12] <Willdude123> adamgreig, no clue
[14:12] <adamgreig> Willdude123: 3+2-3+2 != 0
[14:12] <craag> mikestir: It's been a while since I messed with that bit of code, iTOW?
[14:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> 3+2-3+2 = ?
[14:13] <Willdude123> 5-5
[14:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> ()
[14:13] <adamgreig> uhm
[14:13] <adamgreig> oh I see what you did
[14:13] <adamgreig> it's not the same as 5-5
[14:13] <craag> mikestir: Ah, no I don't.
[14:13] <mikestir> time of week. I poll for SOL, TIMEUTC, POSLLH and VELNED. Occasionally one will come slightly later and have a different iTOW value, which I assume means the position engine calculated a new fix in the middle of sending
[14:13] <Willdude123> Addition first so it's 5-5 ,no ?
[14:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> (3+2)-(3+2)=0
[14:13] <adamgreig> even though BODMAS does make it look like that would be the case
[14:13] <adamgreig> wow, yes, well, that's what you get for BODMAS being so confusing, haha
[14:13] <adamgreig> ok you have a totally legit point
[14:13] <enkidu> YU1TTN: no signs.
[14:14] <adamgreig> but actually addition and subtraction are the same priority
[14:14] <adamgreig> it's really
[14:14] <adamgreig> (+3) + (+2) + (-3) + (+2)
[14:14] <craag> mikestir: Yeah I had issues with that, sometimes it polled for position before it had locked, got some garbage co-ords, then polled for lock and in the meantime it had locked, so sent the position.
[14:15] <craag> Happened so rarely I ignored it though.
[14:15] <Willdude123> Right it's 4
[14:15] <mikestir> it's a pita that it doesn't provide some sort of locking mechanism
[14:15] <adamgreig> yea it's 4
[14:15] <YU1TTN> Ok enkidu I hope it'll start txing again
[14:15] <craag> Also with the GPS set to 1Hz, I had 1000ms delay on all my polls.
[14:15] <craag> So took me 3s for position, time and lock messages
[14:16] <craag> With 10hz, it was 100ms
[14:16] <Chetic> no payload antenna: http://i.imgur.com/6xjLApH.png with payload antenna: http://i.imgur.com/GILURPJ.png
[14:16] <mikestir> I've got it set even slower than that (2s) to save some poewr
[14:16] <Chetic> both look like very messy transmissions don't they?
[14:16] <mikestir> it doesn't always hold up the polling though
[14:16] <daveake> TVM craag that worked :)
[14:16] <enkidu> YU1TTN: it was flying at mid height, so it could be wrapped in ice
[14:16] <craag> mikestir: It doesn't recommend less than 1hz for continuous tracking.
[14:17] <mikestir> oh ok
[14:17] <craag> daveake: np!
[14:17] <Willdude123> For 2
[14:17] <Willdude123> 3*8+2*4-3*2+2
[14:17] <Willdude123> =28
[14:17] <Willdude123> 28/4=7
[14:17] <Willdude123> Jesus I am really bad at maths
[14:17] <craag> mikestir: I assume there's a chance of it losing lock if conditions change in that period.
[14:18] <YU1TTN> yes it's possible. I'm pretty amazed that all the stuff were only about 10grams or so, we'll done minimization :)
[14:18] <Willdude123> http://imgur.com/ncGnebR
[14:19] <Willdude123> This diagram scares me so much I'm almost literally hiding from it
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[14:19] <adamgreig> aww it's not too bad
[14:19] <craag> mikestir: The powersaving 1hz mode is v good for powersaving, just remember to only set it after the module has a 3D lock.
[14:21] <Willdude123> adamgreig, what does it even mean?
[14:21] <mikestir> tbh power isn't that big a deal for this flight so I'll just use the recommended settings
[14:21] <adamgreig> it's just a diagram of some function f(x) which is the curve, with points A and B labelled
[14:21] <mikestir> might play with it at some point in the future
[14:22] <adamgreig> A is at position (x, y) and B is at position (x+´x, y+´y)
[14:22] <craag> mikestir: Sure, Anthony did quite an in-depth investigation of it on the ublox-6's, but not on the 7s yet afaik.
[14:22] <adamgreig> the x-distance between A and B is thus labelled ´x (since it's the distance between x and x+´x)
[14:22] <adamgreig> and similarly the y distance is ´y
[14:22] <adamgreig> meanwhile the value of the function (the y value) at A is f(x) and the value of the function at B is f(x+´x) since this is a chart of the function
[14:23] <adamgreig> that's everything
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[14:25] <Willdude123> Uhuh the text that follows is v. hard to understand
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[14:25] <adamgreig> honestly this looks way above what I'd expect you to be doing in maths at age 13
[14:26] <adamgreig> this is like, sixth form calculus maybe
[14:26] <adamgreig> so don't be worried if it's hard to grasp at first
[14:26] <LeoBodnar> Hi chris_4x1rf
[14:27] <Willdude123> adamgreig, it's more that my math skills are so far behind my physics skills
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> hi LeoBodnar
[14:27] <adamgreig> Willdude123: honestly even A level physics doesn't touch calculus
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> were you using coherent demod for your dominoex code?
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> - decoder
[14:27] <adamgreig> Willdude123: it tries to do calculus without any actual calculus. because GCSE maths doesn't have calc and you don't require A level maths to do A level physics.
[14:28] <Willdude123> Mhm
[14:28] <adamgreig> calculus is cool and not that hard really (well integration can be) so it's fun to learn, but as I said it's well above what you'd be learning in school
[14:28] <Willdude123> Should I continue with the course?#
[14:28] <adamgreig> up to you
[14:28] <LeoBodnar> I have tried coherent but phase was shifting between symbols on fldigi so I have abandoned this for now
[14:28] <adamgreig> phase shifted between symbols?
[14:28] <adamgreig> oh fldigi
[14:28] <adamgreig> the dominoex spec is explicit on the matter
[14:29] <adamgreig> should use coherent phase m-fsk
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> this is odd
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> id have thought fldigi would maintain coherent phase
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> unless it was coded by lunatics...
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: i was only getting about 3dB worse than your code with fldigi
[14:30] <adamgreig> HMM :P
[14:30] <LeoBodnar> I could not work out the source of the problem
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> but fldigi had a secondary code running
[14:30] <adamgreig> the secondary code should only run when it's not transmitting primary tho
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> which was helping it.. i might try without that at some point
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> sure
[14:30] <Willdude123> As the Germans would say "This is sausage to me" http://imgur.com/alsoKVG
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> but secondary helps it lock
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> thats one place where the header search can help
[14:30] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: do you have progressively worse SNR samples I can play with?
[14:31] <adamgreig> you can't try without it
[14:31] <Laurenceb_> sure ill filebin some in a minute
[14:31] <adamgreig> I made a coherent phase mfsk modulator
[14:31] <Willdude123> adamgreig, I have pretty much no clue about the text following it
[14:31] <adamgreig> might turn it into a dominoex modulator
[14:31] <LeoBodnar> This last file you sent me is odd, I have 3 instead of 6 here $$B-11,1234,456<<<
[14:31] <adamgreig> in which case I could reliably generate samples with known long pseudorandom text at a precise Eb/N0 SNR
[14:32] <LeoBodnar> And the file shows very strong "3" density, this is odd
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[14:32] <adamgreig> which I guess would be good
[14:32] <Willdude123> adamgreig, Sorry are you busy atm? I'll shut up if you are
[14:32] <adamgreig> but if you could make a binary of your decoder that outputs the decoded stream and nothing else
[14:32] <adamgreig> then I could automate it to generate the SNR vs BER chart automatically
[14:32] <adamgreig> which would be cool to see
[14:32] <adamgreig> Willdude123: not really
[14:32] <adamgreig> the text following it is from a degree level textbook
[14:32] <adamgreig> I mean that was on my booklist for first and second year
[14:33] <adamgreig> so it's not exactly the easiest thing to follow
[14:33] <adamgreig> I would second SpeedEvil's recommendation of checking out the kahn academy video about calculus
[14:33] <adamgreig> once you understand the basic concepts being got at, the textbook might be easier to understand
[14:33] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: last file was -15dB
[14:33] <adamgreig> beautiful cpmfsk http://nbviewer.ipython.org/urls/randomskk.net/u/CPMFSK.ipynb
[14:34] <Laurenceb_> ill try -12.5dB
[14:34] <Willdude123> adamgreig, I kinda do, just a bit unsure really.
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[14:34] <adamgreig> watch the video and see if it helps sure you up?
[14:34] <LeoBodnar> I am not sure where this massive "3" footprint is coming from. I am investigating
[14:35] <mattbrejza> cp = continuous phase?
[14:35] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: incidentally is your code online anywhere? you should put it on github :P
[14:35] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: yea
[14:35] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: though I should probs LPF the output too to help smooth it
[14:35] <mattbrejza> well it shouldnt make any difference
[14:35] <adamgreig> but the domex encoder first, then bpf around centre
[14:35] <adamgreig> well no it shouldn't it just looks nicer :P
[14:35] <Laurenceb_> http://filebin.ca/v0FXGnzxQ1r/gen_.wav
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[14:35] <Laurenceb_> ^ -12.5dB
[14:35] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: maybe put the snr in the filename? :P
[14:36] <Laurenceb_> lol
[14:36] <Laurenceb_> yeah good point
[14:36] <LeoBodnar> I am cleaning the code
[14:36] <adamgreig> and is this resampled?
[14:36] <adamgreig> lemme try and make a generator
[14:36] <adamgreig> stupid weird domex varicode
[14:36] <mattbrejza> LeoBodnar: how do you get bit sync working well at low snr?
[14:36] <Laurenceb_> adamgreig: just quick script in octave
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[14:36] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: but taking dl-fldigi generated audio and adding noise then resampling?
[14:36] <Laurenceb_> yes
[14:37] <adamgreig> k
[14:37] <gonzo_> someone been scribbling on spacenear?
[14:38] <adamgreig> looks ok to me - think someone has cleaned it but it's maybe still cached
[14:38] <craag> gonzo_: refresh, it's been fixed.
[14:38] <Laurenceb_> http://filebin.ca/v0GPHekFMB7/gen-10db.wav
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[14:38] Nick change: [1]Geoff-G8DHE-M -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[14:39] <PA3WEG-Work> hello all
[14:39] <PA3WEG-Work> I missed all the fun?
[14:39] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: was it 16kHz sample rate?
[14:40] <Laurenceb_> yes
[14:40] <PA3WEG-Work> looks like a balloon was launched from my backyard....
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[14:44] <LeoBodnar> Thanks Laurenceb_ will give it a go in a moment
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[14:46] <Willdude123> What I don't understand is how in the lecture for one of the demos they use a black and white analogue camera.
[14:46] <adamgreig> this stuff hasn't changed in a while ;)
[14:46] <Willdude123> But it's filmed in colour, with sound 'n' all
[14:47] <LeoBodnar> $$B-11,1214,456,12335.34,463,12,45185213,,.5,858.721,.,
[14:47] <LeoBodnar> This is without tri-char search, just best single symbol match
[14:48] Action: Laurenceb_ bbl
[14:48] <LeoBodnar> The more I play with the code the worse it gets lol
[14:49] <LeoBodnar> But I need to clean it up first
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[14:53] <Maxell> Will the Netherlands be in rage of the LOHAN launch?
[14:53] <daveake> Nope
[14:53] <Maxell> Ok, thanks.
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[14:54] <ike> LeoBodnar I haven't been here in a while. Do you know where are B-11 and B-12?
[14:55] <PA3WEG-Work> @Maxell: launch from denhaag was RevSpace?
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[15:06] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[15:14] <Chetic> anybody know what is causing all this distortion? http://i.imgur.com/6xjLApH.png http://i.imgur.com/GILURPJ.png
[15:15] <Chetic> that's at 200 baud, 7-bit chars
[15:15] <LeoBodnar> ike no idea, Africa and Pacific if predictions are right and they are still flying
[15:15] <Chetic> just the carrier signal is pretty clean
[15:16] <LeoBodnar> mattbrejza: I do a correlation search on the packet header and assume timing is fixed for the duration of the packet
[15:17] <ike> LeoBodnar 10x for the info
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[15:18] <mfa298> Chetic: with a higher baudrate you will get wider bars for the mark and space tone.
[15:18] <mfa298> depending on how you're connecting stuff you might get more noise
[15:18] <mfa298> and depending on how you're controlling the ntx2 you might get more errors
[15:19] <mfa298> as far as I'm aware no ones used wiringPi in their tracker code.
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[15:23] <mattbrejza> LeoBodnar: ah right
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[15:26] <tweetBot> @daveake: How to track the LOHAN test flight on Monday - http://t.co/CUJHeHDeMr - signal will cover Spain and Portugal plus SW France. #UKHAS #HAMR
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[15:33] Action: Geoff-G8DHE :-) Have dl-fldigi controlling SDR-Radio via rigCAT it now follows drifting signals
[15:33] <enkidu> Geoff-G8DHE: rigcat?
[15:33] <enkidu> should I try adding code to gqrx?
[15:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its a spec for controlling rigs via serial ports
[15:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://www.w1hkj.com/FldigiHelp-3.21/rigxml.html
[15:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> If you want to!
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[15:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> I like SRD-Radio myself - tks craag for suggesting it!
[15:35] <enkidu> url?
[15:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://www.w1hkj.com/FldigiHelp-3.21/rigxml.html
[15:36] <enkidu> for sdr-radio
[15:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its not a complete spec. but read some of the example files for more info
[15:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> Oh SDR-Radio one sec
[15:36] <mfa298> enkidu: http://v2.sdr-radio.com/
[15:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> Thats it
[15:36] <mfa298> Geoff-G8DHE: was it tricky getting Rigcat setup for sdr-radio ?
[15:37] <ur5fnk> hello, does anyone know about SP9OB?
[15:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes the example called SDR-Radio.xml is rubbish :-( Load the K2.xml file and it works! Now to clean it up and use all the VFO's etc.
[15:38] <mfa298> I might have to have a play at some point.
[15:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> The spec for SDR-Radio also leaves a bit to be desired it doesn't make it clear that it needs the parameters as Bytes not Strings
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[15:39] <mfa298> looks like there's been a few updates for sdr-radio since I last downloaded it
[15:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes the new one is 2.1 build 1491
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[15:40] <mfa298> I think I'm still on a 2.0 beta
[15:40] <M6PFX> is the SSDV used on hab flights the same as easypal ?
[15:40] <futurity> Hi, I see that the SQ50MQ_Chase car is at Royston health right near my house
[15:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> Not a lot different from 2.0 and a few minor bugs like it doesn't retain all window settings, but it is a Beta
[15:41] <futurity> Has a balloon landed there? Does anyone know if they need any hall doing whatever they are doing?
[15:41] <mfa298> M6PFX: we mostly use SSDV for hab's which is different to easypal
[15:41] <M6PFX> 2.1 has all the new sat stuff
[15:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes but not much use for that with HAB's
[15:41] <M6PFX> mfa298 thanks
[15:41] <mfa298> SSDV just encodes the datastream over rtty (at a reasonably high rate 300 or 600baud)
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[15:43] <fsphil> easypal is neither easy nor PAL:)
[15:43] <M6PFX> i didn't realise there was a page on the ukhas wiki so i'm reading that now i've found it. I should have searched a little more before asking here. sorry
[15:44] <mfa298> and probably won't work too well over HAB distances.
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[15:44] <fsphil> and would need a very good radio
[15:44] <mfa298> with HAB power/bandwisth
[15:44] <fsphil> as it's not just an FSK or PSK scheme
[15:45] <fsphil> QAM I think?
[15:45] <fsphil> it's whatever DRM uses
[15:45] <fsphil> and does not handle noise very well
[15:45] <fsphil> takes ages to resync
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[15:48] <Chetic> mfa298: how can my connections with the ntx2 cause noise?
[15:49] <Chetic> I followed a guide that said to use 32k resistors, but I used 30+2k
[15:49] <mfa298> if you're using something like breadboard you can get extra noise
[15:49] <Chetic> I am..
[15:49] <mfa298> having everything soldered should improve things.
[15:49] <Chetic> I am skeptical but since that's the plan anyway, I will try it
[15:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> Have you got plenty of decoupling capacitors around
[15:50] <Chetic> well I have full access to a lab, so probably, yeah
[15:50] <Chetic> what for?
[15:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> to stop any digital noise getting into the analouge sections of the NTX2
[15:51] <mfa298> *many* people have had issues using breadboard. And when moving to soldered onto veroboard/stripboard it's a lot
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[15:52] <enkidu> breadboard is made of conductiors and dielectrics
[15:52] <mfa298> also how are you driving the ntx2, is it on the UART or are you trying to use a gpio ?
[15:52] <Chetic> ah yeah.. the ntx2 is right up against the breadboard and I suppose it'll be pretty sensitive
[15:52] <enkidu> it is nice for microwave reception ;)
[15:52] <Chetic> mfa298: it's on the uart, but, how does that make a difference from a gpio?
[15:53] <mfa298> I was wondering why your display had bits about wiringpi in it.
[15:53] <Chetic> just echoed the nearest file I found to /dev/ttyAMA0 :P
[15:53] <mfa298> trying to get good timing via a GPIO is very hard so almost everyone uses the uart
[15:54] <Chetic> yeah linux doesn't really let you, from what I understand
[15:54] <mfa298> ah ok, that makes sense.
[15:54] <Chetic> it'd be fun to write my own assembly ofc
[15:54] <Chetic> but not really time-efficient
[15:54] <Chetic> why not use the uart though?
[15:55] <mfa298> uart is what almost everyone is doing (and is the easiest method)
[15:55] <Chetic> so there's no real reason to use a gpio instead?
[15:56] <mfa298> for rtty the only real issue with using the uart is you potentially have to share it with the gps.
[15:56] <mfa298> although the gps has been used with i2c (although I think you have to bit bang that)
[15:57] <cm13g09> yay PAT testing....
[15:57] Action: cm13g09 realises he's not in the window he thought he was
[15:58] <Chetic> mfa298: the gps could be placed on the pi's rx though? btw no, the pi can act as i2c master
[15:58] <mfa298> if you want to try something that's not rtty you might need a gpio - but that's more advanced as well
[15:58] <mfa298> Chetic: I think the issue was due to the pi not doing clock stretching which the ublox uses (or something like that) - I'm just trying to remember what's been said on here
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[15:59] <mfa298> with the ublox you also need to talk to it a bit (to set flight mode) but that's not a major issue
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[16:02] <Chetic> ah maybe the timing signal from the ublox doesn't work with the pi (or raspbian rather, I'm sure the mcu can be set up to handle it)
[16:02] <Chetic> ah ok
[16:02] <Chetic> I was planning to have 3 other devices on the i2c bus, I hope that won't be an issue
[16:03] <mfa298> there's a couple of lines about it on the raspberry pi page on the wiki - although not much more detail than I just said
[16:03] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: Laurenceb_: mattbrejza: dominoex modulator made http://nbviewer.ipython.org/urls/randomskk.net/u/DominoEX.ipynb
[16:03] <adamgreig> the dominoex part is 5 lines of python, lol
[16:03] <daveake> Chetic i2c on the Pi does not work with the ublox
[16:04] <daveake> You need to bit-bang it
[16:04] <daveake> I'm uploading some code soon from my workshop at the cong
[16:04] <daveake> f
[16:04] <mfa298> the approach most people use is to have gps and ntx2 on the uart, open at 9600 to read from the gps, close and reopen at 300bd (or whatever you want) to send via the ntx2 and repeat
[16:05] <daveake> yup that's the simplest
[16:05] <Chetic> why not daveake?
[16:05] <daveake> my first 3 Pi flights all did that
[16:05] <daveake> You get some downtime when you can't transmit
[16:05] <daveake> Plus you can't log gps at 1Hz
[16:05] <daveake> But like I say it works
[16:07] <Chetic> wait
[16:07] <Chetic> you said it doesn't work?
[16:07] <Chetic> i2c on the pi does not work with the ublox <- why not?
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[16:07] <fsphil> it doesn't with the Pi's hardware I2C interface
[16:08] <daveake> Because of clock stretching
[16:08] <fsphil> you have to do it in software
[16:08] <daveake> So you do it in software
[16:08] <fsphil> which is annoying
[16:08] <daveake> Which is meh. but works well
[16:08] <fsphil> but better than sharing the uart
[16:08] <daveake> yup
[16:08] <Chetic> as in the pi's hardware doesn't support it?
[16:08] <Chetic> I thought clock stretching is a requirement for i2c
[16:08] <fsphil> there's a bug in the hardware
[16:08] <Chetic> well I'll be
[16:08] <daveake> The ublox clock stretches anytime it wants
[16:08] <daveake> The Pi h/w expects it only at certain points
[16:09] <daveake> ^^ my basic understanding of the issue
[16:09] <fsphil> yea that seems to be it
[16:09] <Chetic> yup, will definitely put that thing on a different bus then
[16:09] <Chetic> uart I mean
[16:09] <Chetic> he can't ride with the other kids
[16:09] <Chetic> if he doesn't play nicely on the bus
[16:10] <mfa298> putting both gps and ublox on the uart is the easiest method - and is probably the best way to go about it initially
[16:10] <Chetic> yeah it sounds reasonable
[16:10] <fsphil> be a nice challange to see if anyone can decode the 9600 baud data :)
[16:10] <fsphil> or 4800
[16:10] <mfa298> bit banging stuff get's more interesting - certainly doable from C/C++
[16:10] <fsphil> it's not too bad
[16:11] <Chetic> bit banging IS pretty easy, there are plenty of drivers for it pre-made
[16:11] <fsphil> i2c doesn't have the timing requirements of rs232
[16:11] <fsphil> so you could even do it in python if you really wanted to
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[16:11] <Chetic> rs232 requires a set bit length though, right?
[16:12] <fsphil> yea, has to be exact
[16:12] <fsphil> for at least a full byte
[16:12] <fsphil> the gap between bytes can be longer
[16:12] <Chetic> yeah
[16:12] <Chetic> I'll just do it the daveake way
[16:12] <fsphil> though you wouldn't be able to do ssdv that way as it measures the time between bytes and pads it out
[16:13] <mfa298> rs232/rtty certainly was interesting to bit bang and I don't think I'd want to try from python
[16:13] <fsphil> if you can figure out how to do it via DMA
[16:13] <fsphil> then you could do it from python
[16:13] <mfa298> (I've started putting information about it and a link to my code on the wiki as an rpi advanced page)
[16:14] <mfa298> I'll leave python as a challege for someone else.
[16:16] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar / Laurenceb_: what sample size are you using on the wav files?
[16:16] <adamgreig> 16 bit?
[16:16] <adamgreig> (signed?)
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[16:27] <adamgreig> hmmm dl-fldigi sees my wav file as having stuff at 500Hz not 1000Hz
[16:27] <adamgreig> weird
[16:29] <adamgreig> audacity loads it fine
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[16:30] <adamgreig> oh right, it requires 8000Hz sample rate. great.
[16:31] <Willdude123> Couldn't someone just use a relay or something to close the ntx2 connection when the gps is being txed to?
[16:32] <adamgreig> you could but it's a faff
[16:32] <adamgreig> okay, when I just cut out half my samples (lol) dl-fldigi picks it up just fine
[16:32] <adamgreig> though it doesn't look fantastic on the waterfall :/
[16:34] <zs260> hi guys
[16:34] <M6PFX> hi
[16:34] <zs260> checking in to see if anyone has experience of balloon recovery in Texas, or Central US
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[16:39] <iain_G4SGX> Does anyone know of a good supplier of TCXO? No-one I've found has any 30MHz TXCO that can run at 2V.
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> do you care about price?
[16:41] <iain_G4SGX> yes, within bounds
[16:42] <Upu> iain_G4SGX
[16:42] <Upu> there is a 26Mhz one
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> exactly 30?
[16:43] <Upu> 26 is in range for the SI chips
[16:43] <zs260> we are planning to launch balloon tomorrow early morning, before sunrise, do you guys think we should inform local police?
[16:43] <Upu> I couldn't find one @ 30Mhz
[16:43] <Upu> Golledge do them
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[16:43] <Upu> zs260 where are you ?
[16:43] <Upu> which country ?
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[16:44] <iain_G4SGX> Yep and 32M is available. Using it on a Si4032 which specifies 30MHz xtal. Was thinking i could use a close value and changing all the freq. settings accordingly but there is no data about how the chip will react otherwise
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[16:44] <wb8elk> just saw this update on Jonathan Trappe as he was hiking out of the Newfoundland wilderness: http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/ID/2406171527/
[16:44] <zs260> @Upu, Texas, USA
[16:44] <Upu> not sure
[16:45] <Upu> wb8elk is you man to ask :)
[16:45] <Upu> iain_G4SGX 26Mhz is in spec for SI 4032 I think
[16:45] <zs260> i called the Gainsville police dept, the lady suggested we take a permit for that& and it feels BS to me
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ASFLMB-30.000MHZ-LY-T/535-11028-2-ND/2624028 +-10ppm
[16:46] <adamgreig> zs260: there are various regulations about launching balloons, the police probably are not the relevant agency
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> iain_G4SGX: Do you mean an oscillator - or a crystal. You can't by definition have a temperature controlled crystal.
[16:46] <wb8elk> zs260....where in Texas...lots of experienced HAB folks in north Texas and also in Houston area
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> iain_G4SGX: Well - unless if it's in an oven
[16:46] <zs260> we are in Plano, planning to launch off Gainsville..
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> What size of balloon and payload?
[16:47] <zs260> wb8elk, would be good if we can speak to any with the experience
[16:47] <zs260> payload around 6lbs
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> zs260: You as I understand it are not going to get approval by tomorrow.
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> zs260: you need - I think - to contact the FAA
[16:48] <wb8elk> approval...why would you need approval?
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> For payloads of close to that weight
[16:48] <zs260> i got approval or clearance from FAA as we are outside of Bravo, north of McKinney
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> Because it is not legal to launch balloons other than in exempt categories as they are hazerdous.
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> Without permission.
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> If you've got permission from the FAA - then that's not an issue.
[16:49] <zs260> i don't think i need approval from the city, but i thought would be nice to let them know before hand that we will be launching off their city at 6am
[16:49] <iain_G4SGX> Was going to use a TCXO instead of a 30Mhz xtal, at least that's the plan. Can only find 30MHZ data on data sheet though, no limits for the CLK freq.
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> In principle there may also be local ordinances which stop you doing stuff.
[16:49] <wb8elk> yes...but 6 pounds is exempt
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> I though tthe limit was 2 pounds.
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> Losten to wb8elk not me
[16:50] <zs260> yes i also read the 6lbs is the limit
[16:50] <iain_G4SGX> Speedevil: that links looks promising, y=tnx
[16:51] <wb8elk> Exempt limit in the US is 12 pounds...but each payload cannot exceed 6 pounds...but of course a 6 pound lead weight is not allowed.
[16:51] <wb8elk> so you could fly 12 one-pound payloads or two 6 pounders
[16:52] <wb8elk> I've launched a balloon or two here in the US :-)
[16:52] <zs260> cool
[16:52] <Upu> or you could just flight something lighter :)
[16:52] <Upu> go euro :)
[16:52] <zs260> so please help me with this, i've got spot tracker on it& but i'm really nervous about recovery
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[16:52] <zs260> and not getting shot by farmers
[16:52] <zs260> how your experience has been so far?
[16:52] <zs260> :)
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> zs260: Try not to get shot.
[16:53] <zs260> assuming you have survived
[16:53] <wb8elk> I'm about to about 400+ launches now I think...I've lost count
[16:53] <wb8elk> I'm in Huntsville, Alabama by the way
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> zs260: Do you have an in-dlight tracker other than SPOT?
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> SPOT is great - but may not always work very ideally.
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> In-flight
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[16:53] <zs260> we have rasperrypi, with 3g dongle with it, i wouldn't rely too much
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> Spot should in general be OK - as long as it lands upright with a view of the sky
[16:54] <wb8elk> It would be good to have more than just the SPOT. It will lose track above 60,000 feet but will hopefully work again as it descends below 60,000 feet
[16:54] <wb8elk> what size balloon are you running?....in grams?
[16:54] <iain_G4SGX> Its a shame mr. Trapper landed so early, we were just about to show that the spacenear tracking system was more accurate with more frequent updates than all the alternatives.
[16:55] <wb8elk> Usually any cellullar radios don
[16:55] <zs260> hang on, let me get the size for you, it is the kit one, from aether project
[16:55] <wb8elk> don't work above about 8000 feet or so....based on the architecture that makes cell phones possible.
[16:56] <wb8elk> which is why it is frowned upon using in hot air balloons or airplanes
[16:56] <zs260> 20 ft. dia. Professional Weather Balloons (600g, white)
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[16:56] <wb8elk> you'll go up to about 82,000 feet with that combo.
[16:56] <wb8elk> 600 gram is a good balloon size for a first flight.
[16:57] <zs260> so for me, since its the first flight, altitude is not very important, i just want to be able to recover it
[16:57] <Upu> yeah use a radio tracker if you can
[16:57] <zs260> what do you do for recovery? i mean i will be checking on the wind tracking sites etc
[16:57] <Upu> radio tracker means you can follow it end to end
[16:57] <zs260> don't have APRS radio this time, but surely for the next launch i will have APRS on it
[16:58] <Upu> or 70cms...
[16:58] <Upu> we have prediction programs
[16:58] <wb8elk> highly recommend you use that winds aloft link that was just posted
[16:58] <zs260> how accurate it has been in your experience?
[16:59] <wb8elk> and choose your free lift according to the ascent rate desired...I usually try to achieve 1000 feet/min
[16:59] <Upu> habhub ones are quite accurate, not used the other one
[16:59] <wb8elk> what size diameter parachute are you using?
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=ff31a649f0a5056df96073c24d982ca113492ed2
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> Wow - that's a short flight
[17:00] <wb8elk> the Univ of Wyoming site that is often quoted for predictions will only be accurate if you happen to luckily hit the fixed ascent rate and descent rate that is typical of a radiosonde. Not accurate if you vary from that. So use the Habhub one
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> is it 1PM in texas now?
[17:01] <zs260> couldn't find which type of parachute it is
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> If so - the above is a launch from plano around dawn
[17:01] <zs260> http://www.amazon.com/Fly-It-Yourself-Balloon-Kit-Tether-Addition/dp/B00EEEKR4M/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1379177288&sr=8-3&keywords=fly+it+yourself+kit
[17:01] <Upu> god I hate those guys
[17:01] <Upu> seriously $2k
[17:02] <chrisstubbs> it does come with a drill
[17:02] <zs260> no, i paid with 999 :)
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> It goes around 20 miles north
[17:02] <Upu> zs260 come speak to us before your next launch please
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> haha
[17:02] <zs260> yes i should have
[17:02] <zs260> i discovered this forum pretty late
[17:02] <wb8elk> measure the diameter of the parachute laid out flat on the ground
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> Genius - overprice several times, then offer generous discounts.
[17:02] <Upu> still @ $1kthree times to much
[17:02] <Upu> and then some
[17:03] <zs260> i agree it is overpriced, but i really lacked experienced to felt it may be worthwhile if i can learn from this launch
[17:03] <Upu> zs260 understood
[17:03] <adamgreig> tethered flights kit
[17:03] <wb8elk> wow....that one from Amazon is wildly overpriced...amazing.
[17:03] <adamgreig> that comes with gopro and gps?
[17:03] <Upu> but thats what we are here for :) Anyway go launch it and for the next one come back :)
[17:04] <zs260> sure thing.. i've started preparing for my technician license too, so i can have aprs for the next launch,
[17:04] <zs260> @adam, yes it comes with go pro 3 and spot
[17:04] <wb8elk> well...you've reached some of the most experienced HAB folks in the world here.
[17:04] <Upu> thats one reason why I did did Habduino
[17:04] <Upu> ok not such a rip off
[17:04] <Upu> but still expensive
[17:04] <wb8elk> Also....try subscribing to GPSL@yahoogroups.com
[17:05] <zs260> @habduino is soo awesome!
[17:05] <wb8elk> US experienced HAB folks hang out there.
[17:05] <adamgreig> zs260: I was more pondering why a kit for _tethered_ flights comes with GPS and a GoPro
[17:05] <adamgreig> in case you "accidentally" cut the tether or something?
[17:05] <Upu> I think you need a license to use Habduino over there
[17:05] <Upu> Habduino can do APRS
[17:05] <Upu> at the same time
[17:05] <zs260> yes, thats why i'm trying to get Ham radio license myself
[17:05] <wb8elk> Getting your amateur radio license is good for HAB here.
[17:05] <Upu> I'll get that moving once my eye sorts itself out
[17:06] <zs260> so my proposition for tomorrow is, to launch an egg, in a 3d printed cage, and see if it survive the crash :)
[17:06] <Upu> this is called "is my parachute big enough" test
[17:06] <wb8elk> Also...you are very close to our annual Great Plains Super Launch in Hutchinson, Kansas next June. We launch upwards of 10 high altitude balloons...definitely worth attending since you are not far from there: http://www.superlaunch.org
[17:08] <zs260> @wb8elk, i'm actually from San Francisco, launching from Texas this time, coz i felt it flatter out here and open airspace as well..
[17:08] <wb8elk> Try contacting: ARBONET group. Bet some of them might come out to help you track and recover and would also provide an APRS tracker I would think: http://www.arbonet.net/
[17:08] <wb8elk> Should've come on out here to Huntsville, AL...I fly twice a month and often more than that.
[17:08] <zs260> thank wb8elk, contacting them now
[17:09] <zs260> sure thing, i can coordinate to come out for the next launch
[17:09] <wb8elk> sign up for GPSL@yahoogroups.com and post a note about help for your launch.
[17:11] <zs260> signed up, now emailing arbonet
[17:13] <zs260> done
[17:14] <zs260> so guys, any suggestions/recommendations on recovery? we will have two cars with totally 6 people in the team, with binoculars, an AR Drone to check out the roofs and etc if we need to
[17:14] <wb8elk> How do I private message on IRC?
[17:14] <adamgreig> just /msg username message here
[17:14] <wb8elk> thanks
[17:14] <adamgreig> sometimes clicking/double clicking their name in the user list works
[17:15] <adamgreig> zs260: haha, binoculars and an AR drone at pretty novel, uhm
[17:15] <adamgreig> really you need something on it that tells you where it i
[17:15] <adamgreig> is*
[17:15] <adamgreig> like the SPOT
[17:15] <zs260> there is a spot on it
[17:15] <adamgreig> if you don't hear from any of those things your odds of finding it are pretty slim
[17:15] <adamgreig> with or without fancy quadcopters
[17:15] <iain_G4SGX> or anybody who didn't see earlier post, the RSGB are now going to lobby for some Aeronautical licensing in the UK. They said, 'As a result of informal contacts and discussion with Ofcom the RSGB will include the aspect of Aeronautical Amateur Operation in its input to Ofcom as part of the license review. However do not expect things to change in a hurry, any proposal to Ofcom will be forwarded to the CAA who are unlikely to be receptiv
[17:15] <iain_G4SGX> e. I therefore expect a lengthy set of exchanges where the RSGB will need to do a lot of lobbying.'. Fingers crossed..
[17:15] <adamgreig> still not a bad idea - could make finding it in trees (or as you say roofs) easier
[17:15] <wb8elk> zs260 I sent you my email
[17:16] <adamgreig> zs260: use that predictor linked earlier to get an idea of where it will go
[17:16] <adamgreig> then try to fill as accurately as you can, so that the predictor has a chance
[17:16] <adamgreig> then drive to the around the landing spot and hope you get a message on the SPOT
[17:16] <adamgreig> iain_G4SGX: sweet!
[17:16] <adamgreig> fingers crossed
[17:16] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: have you runned archive predictions today?
[17:17] <wb8elk> zs260...did you see the link above where I private messaged you?
[17:17] <Hix> anyone use visual studio?
[17:18] <zs260> wb8elk, i got it and acted on it
[17:19] <zs260> @adam, what should i put for balloon mass? i'm trying to figure this out, http://habhub.org/calc/
[17:19] <adamgreig> uhm, well, the mass of your balloon
[17:19] <adamgreig> did you say it was 600g or 800g?
[17:20] <zs260> and i'm planning to release with 2lbs of lift,
[17:20] <zs260> 600g
[17:20] <adamgreig> I think the aether balloons are kaymont
[17:20] <adamgreig> might be wrong
[17:20] <adamgreig> iirc they don't have brand names on them or something stupid
[17:20] <iain_G4SGX> From earlier discussions I think they will be pushing for APRS on 2M allowance at first as its primary allocation and a;ready tested abroad
[17:20] <adamgreig> but go for the kaymont 600g, it won't be far wrong
[17:20] <adamgreig> iain_G4SGX: I would almost be sorry if we did get just APRS airborne
[17:21] <adamgreig> that'd be the end of our little network here ;)
[17:21] <adamgreig> maybe any-mode 2m
[17:21] <zs260> @adam, how would i calculate the ascent rate with 2lb of lift?
[17:21] <adamgreig> zs260: typically you go the other way
[17:21] <adamgreig> set an ascent rate and see the required free lift
[17:21] <adamgreig> and then fill to that lift
[17:21] <adamgreig> but if you must launch with 2lb free lift, you can just keep trying ascent rates til you get that
[17:22] <wb8elk> I personally would go with 4 pounds of free lift: http://nearspaceventures.com/cgi-bin/ascent.pl
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[17:23] <adamgreig> I would be going for a lot more. huh.
[17:23] <adamgreig> did you say 6lb payload mass?
[17:23] <adamgreig> on a 600g balloon?
[17:23] <adamgreig> 5m/s is a nice target ascent rate to aim for
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[17:25] <zs260> nice link adam
[17:25] <zs260> thanks
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[17:34] <eroomde_> adamgreig: ping
[17:35] <adamgreig> hey eroomde_
[17:35] <adamgreig> sorry I couldn't make it today :(
[17:35] <eroomde_> np
[17:35] <eroomde_> we've jet got back to ox
[17:35] <eroomde_> weather looks horrensous
[17:35] <adamgreig> lol
[17:36] <adamgreig> yea it's definitely not summer any more
[17:36] <eroomde_> tomorrow anyway
[17:36] <adamgreig> was it ok for you today in camb?
[17:36] <eroomde_> we bought some cheese and other deli things
[17:36] <eroomde_> having a lazy dinner
[17:36] <eroomde_> yep ok, a bit drizzly
[17:37] <adamgreig> sounds good. from the cambridge cheese shop?
[17:37] <eroomde_> yep
[17:37] <adamgreig> what're you doing tomorrow/
[17:38] <adamgreig> ?*
[17:38] <eroomde_> lazy day
[17:38] <eroomde_> weather looks horrible (gusting 60?) so probably having an in day
[17:38] <adamgreig> haha oh that does look rubbish
[17:39] <adamgreig> someone else I know had been planning a picnic in regent's park tomorrow afternoon
[17:39] <adamgreig> I hope they've realised that they should have done this approximately a month ago
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[17:40] <DL7AD> does anyone know something about adio streaming?
[17:40] <eroomde_> yes, it looks like a definitely stay-in day
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[17:57] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:57] <g4sgx-iain> adamreig: Yes it will not help with the experimentation new data modes etc but it will be a first step. Slowly slowly catchy monkey.. And i think it will be very slow.
[17:57] <g4sgx-iain> Will still be a need for 70cms links
[17:59] <craag> Yeah telemetry every 15s is nice.
[17:59] <craag> Can't do that with APRS without annoying a fair few people..
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[17:59] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[18:04] <g4sgx-iain> Out of interest, how much does a PI based board with Ublox & TX cost? Just worked out I could make a board to plug in my dev. board for the PIC for abt £15, thats £40 including the board. Not sure if it would be much cheaper if I converted it all to one PCB.
[18:05] <craag> Pi: 25, ublox: 25, tx: 18 ?
[18:05] <g4sgx-iain> Would just be heavier than it could be
[18:05] <craag> I can't check prices as hab supplies is closed
[18:05] <g4sgx-iain> wow, £25 for a Pi, good value.
[18:06] <enkidu> guys, wanna listen to some israeli receiver?
[18:07] <g4sgx-iain> Think you heard B11?
[18:07] <craag> g4sgx-iain: Yeah, they're cheap, that's the main charm!
[18:07] <enkidu> no, we are waiting for it to come
[18:07] <enkidu> I have relay on my pc so few ppl could listen to stream
[18:09] <craag> enkidu: I am running an icecast server if your bandwidth gets overloaded.
[18:09] <g4sgx-iain> worth trying italy also, those predictions seem a little 'straight' in comparison to real flight paths in the past ive noticed, almost as if they predict with current air patterns instead of predicted ones also.
[18:09] <enkidu> craag: dont really think i could overload 1Gbit
[18:09] <mfa298> I think it's £20 for a model-a which would be better for hab.
[18:09] <craag> enkidu: haha no ok!
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[18:10] <enkidu> here it is: http://lantv.ds.pg.gda.pl:8080 <- stream, not www!
[18:10] <enkidu> strange sounds tho
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[18:24] <enkidu> craag: some ppl cannot use my repeater, can we try with your icecast too?
[18:25] <M6PFX> enkidu what you using to play that link, can't get VLC to open it
[18:25] <enkidu> vlc and mplayer
[18:26] <enkidu> wait a second, I could try recoding to mp2, as source is mp2
[18:26] <M6PFX> hmm odd
[18:26] <M6PFX> opening it as a network stream and nothing
[18:26] <enkidu> to mp3
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[18:28] <enkidu> now it is mp3 | mpegts
[18:28] <M6PFX> working now
[18:29] <enkidu> flv +mp2 was in original, but many players cannot handle it
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[18:33] <M6PFX> enkidu what are you tuned into at the moment?
[18:33] <enkidu> not me. I am relaying our israeli receiver
[18:34] <enkidu> DL7AD knows more
[18:34] <DL7AD> yep
[18:34] <DL7AD> the tuner is currently tuned to 434.500 (bit lower)
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[18:35] <DL7AD> for the purpose to receive b-11
[18:35] <M6PFX> when were b-11 or b-12 last heard?
[18:36] <mikestir> is the unit for ground speed on habitat supposed to be km/h rather than the m/s that it says in the docs?
[18:37] <adamgreig> no
[18:37] <adamgreig> don't think so
[18:37] <adamgreig> why do you say that?
[18:38] <mikestir> the value I'm posting is m/s and it shows up on spacenear verbatim
[18:39] <adamgreig> interesting
[18:40] <craag> This was a bug a while back
[18:40] <craag> Not sure it was fixed
[18:40] <craag> enkidu: Sorry, was away, sounds like you've got it sorted though!
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[18:42] <enkidu> sp9uob seems to be making tests
[18:43] <mikestir> craag: should I just send km/h as a work around or is it likely to get fixed?
[18:44] <adamgreig> it shouldn't be doing that
[18:44] <adamgreig> uhm
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[18:45] <mikestir> I'll send some dummy values that aren't so close to zero just to check
[18:45] <enkidu> I am afraid, that once B-11 entered israeli airpace, it was recognized as rocked and shot
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[18:45] Nick change: zs260_ -> zs260
[18:46] <enkidu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/trajplot_12265.pdf also trajectories
[18:46] <adamgreig> DanielRichman: where does the scaling from m/s in the db to km/h in snus happen? I can't see it on the snus side or the spacenearus.py transition side :/
[18:47] <enkidu> if it turned west as it was predicted, me mill hear it. If it turned east - japan
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[18:47] <craag> Heh, that probably explains why it's showing in m/s then :P
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[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> hi craag
[19:22] <craag> Evening Lunar_Lander
[19:22] <DL1SGP> good evening Lunar_Lander and craag
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> hi
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[19:22] <craag> evening DL1SGP
[19:22] <craag> Not bad at all
[19:23] <craag> Start a new job on Monday :)
[19:23] <craag> How about you?
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> I am fine too
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> laughing my butt off about stupid people xD
[19:25] <DL1SGP> heh that is always a good thing to do :D
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> about a man calling a mobile phone provider
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> "Welcome to *soandso*, my name is ..."
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> "Activate SIM Card"
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> "Could you repeat please?"
[19:26] <Willdude123> Hi Lunar, craag
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> "Activate SIM Card"
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:27] <craag> Hi Will
[19:28] <Willdude123> Thinking I might give up this physics course. They've started on vectors , moreover 3d vectors.
[19:28] <Willdude123> Since I'm banned from ##physics there's pretty much nowhere to get help
[19:28] <M6PFX> Willdude123 why you get banned?
[19:29] <Willdude123> I asked a question. I couldn't figure part of it out, they refused to help
[19:29] <Willdude123> It escalated from there really.
[19:29] <M6PFX> what? people refused to do your home work for you?
[19:30] <Willdude123> No.
[19:30] <Willdude123> That would be reasonable.
[19:30] <M6PFX> if people don't want to help you, its hardly a reason to escalate something
[19:30] <Willdude123> They refused to help, and told me to shut up just because I needed help with it
[19:30] <Willdude123> Oh I didn't.
[19:31] <M6PFX> so they insulted you?
[19:31] <Willdude123> I PMed him asking when he'd unmute me from the channel, he didn't reply, and banned me for making pms without asking in the channel.
[19:31] <Willdude123> Anyway
[19:31] <Willdude123> This isn't the place to discuss it
[19:32] <M6PFX> i see
[19:32] <M6PFX> you must have pissed them off
[19:32] <Willdude123> Yup.
[19:32] <Willdude123> His kick message even had the number of kicks/bans he'd performed in total, just to show off
[19:32] <Willdude123> craag, it's when you get diagrams like this that I get scared.
[19:32] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[19:32] <Willdude123> Damn
[19:33] <Willdude123> https://courses.edx.org/static/content-mit-801x~2013_SOND/html/lec03_Q2.png
[19:33] <Willdude123> Meant to paste that ^
[19:34] <M6PFX> ok
[19:34] <M6PFX> maybe you should try the physics channel on here
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> Willdude123, why exactly?
[19:35] <Willdude123> It just looks so confusing
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[19:39] <ibanezmatt13> evening :)
[19:39] <adamgreig> craag: exciting, what're you up to now?
[19:39] <adamgreig> evening ibanezmatt13
[19:40] <ibanezmatt13> evening adamgreig, how's things?
[19:40] <adamgreig> things are quiet
[19:40] <adamgreig> you?
[19:40] <ibanezmatt13> rather busy
[19:41] <ibanezmatt13> not been able to get to a PC recently, so much maths
[19:41] <Willdude123> Hi ibanezmatt13
[19:41] <ibanezmatt13> Hi Will
[19:41] <craag> adamgreig: Working for a new spin-off doing remote telemetry and monitoring.
[19:41] <Willdude123> Still not done a vatsim flight
[19:41] <ibanezmatt13> do one then
[19:41] <Willdude123> I don't want to.
[19:42] <Willdude123> I'm so nervous
[19:42] <adamgreig> craag: cool, sounds fun
[19:42] <ibanezmatt13> don't do one then :)
[19:42] <Willdude123> I have enough crap going on in my my life atm to have time to be nervous about a vatsim flight,
[19:43] <ibanezmatt13> fair enough
[19:43] <ibanezmatt13> PCBs arrived Willdude123 ?
[19:43] <Willdude123> Nope not ordered yet.
[19:43] <ibanezmatt13> ah
[19:43] <Willdude123> Oh and I got a guy in the year below me into flight sim games. He was reading a load of aviation related books, and evidently is interested in aviation, so gave him my joystics
[19:44] <Willdude123> *fsx copy
[19:44] <Willdude123> That's what I meant.
[19:44] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[19:44] <ibanezmatt13> I feel kinda bad that I've ordered 3 PCB designs and not even made one yet :P
[19:44] <Willdude123> I gave him my copy of fsx and might give him my joystick to play with. It's hard on mouse yoke.
[19:45] <Willdude123> oh, didn't realize that's what she said
[19:45] <Willdude123> It came out wrong
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[19:47] <chrisstubbs> evening ibanezmatt13
[19:48] <ibanezmatt13> Hey chrisstubbs
[19:48] <Willdude123> Hi chrisstubbs
[19:48] <ibanezmatt13> I was at EGCC today (Manchester Airport) and I had my first encounter with a Nikon D7100 with a HUGE prime lens. Stunning piece of equipment
[19:49] <chrisstubbs> Just finished watching "micro men", a BBC drama/documentary thing from a couple of years back about sinclair vs acorn. good stuff!
[19:49] <chrisstubbs> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIcAyFVK0gE
[19:49] <chrisstubbs> inspirational ending too :)
[19:50] <adamgreig> sinclair went to my secondary school
[19:50] <adamgreig> fun fact
[19:50] <ibanezmatt13> wow
[19:50] <chrisstubbs> Cool :)
[19:51] <chrisstubbs> Did you order your iron ibanezmatt13?
[19:51] <ibanezmatt13> nah, still undecided :/
[19:52] <ibanezmatt13> I think I'm leaning towards the Hakko
[19:52] <ibanezmatt13> I don't need anything more
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[19:53] <mfa298> My only advice with tools is get the best you can afford. I've had so many cheap things that cost more in the end as they're never that good
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander> Willdude123, show him "Orbiter"
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander> adamgreig, cool!
[19:54] <chrisstubbs> How much was it again?
[19:54] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298: yea, I think £100 is pushing it for me at the moment, but I think the Hakko is worth that little bit more. Ed recomended it so it must be good :)
[19:54] <ibanezmatt13> it's just over £100 I think
[19:55] <chrisstubbs> If you get a cheaper one, it might be fine 90% of the time but you will wish you spent the extra for that last 10%
[19:55] <chrisstubbs> and your board wont work if its only 90% populated!
[19:55] <ibanezmatt13> exactly
[19:55] <Willdude123> Lunar_Lander, I thought KSP was awesome :)
[19:55] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[19:56] <Willdude123> Lunar_Lander, I don't suppose you could help me landing on the Mun? :)
[19:57] <Willdude123> Lunar_Lander, Seems discontinued
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> no sorry
[19:57] <ibanezmatt13> I would LOVE to go to the moon. I keep wishing I can send a HAB or a HAR up but it's a little beyond me
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> I never got that far either
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> you'd just have to burn retrograde to slow down
[19:57] <ibanezmatt13> Lunar_Lander: There's still time... Virgin Galactic
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> then pitch up to slow down vertically
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> and that should make it
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> that is how Apollo landed after all
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> ibanezmatt13, yea :)
[19:58] <ibanezmatt13> by the way, what's the crack with escape velocity?
[19:58] <ibanezmatt13> My Dad asked me if we could get into space for my next project and this came up as a possible problem
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> you mean 11.2 kilometers per second?
[19:59] <ibanezmatt13> OMG, seriously?
[19:59] <ibanezmatt13> that's fast
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> yeah to escape earth entirely
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> oh you mean just suborbital space?
[19:59] <Willdude123> Lunar_Lander, you should know how to do that.
[19:59] <ibanezmatt13> holy jesus and mary, how is that even achieveable
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. 100 km and back?
[19:59] <ibanezmatt13> Lunar_Lander: I was thinking actual space
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:59] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, are you Catholic?
[19:59] <adamgreig> to get to 100km "actual space" is ok
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> and space starts at 100 km
[20:00] <adamgreig> but to _stay_ there requires a solid 8km/s velocity
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> oh well
[20:00] <ibanezmatt13> Willdude123: Nah
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:00] <Willdude123> I've never said Jesus and Mary.
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, as adamgreig said, orbit is that velocity
[20:00] <Willdude123> Because I believe in neither of them
[20:00] <adamgreig> Willdude123: your school not doing a convincing job then?
[20:00] <Willdude123> No.
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> surely depends on rocket mass and so on ibanezmatt13
[20:01] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, Your dad has enough money for that? :)
[20:01] <ibanezmatt13> Lunar_Lander: I'll be completely honest with you, I am EXTREMELY interested in space exploration, like unbelievably much but I don't know anything at all :( So I get curious sometimes
[20:01] <Willdude123> Now I see Catholicism for what it really is.
[20:01] <adamgreig> what's that?
[20:01] <Willdude123> In Year 7, I believed it all.
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:01] <Willdude123> Mostly due to Mind Control techniques
[20:01] <ibanezmatt13> We can just about afford petrol to Manchester Airport btw
[20:02] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[20:03] <Willdude123> Now forgive me for what I say here, but personally I see it as a huge homophobic, far-right religion that is still believing what a guy with a beard said some 2000 years ago and refuses to accept anything unless he said it himself
[20:03] <enkidu> allakh akbar
[20:03] <ibanezmatt13> lol
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[20:04] <Willdude123> And I'm not anti-Christians, just anti-Christian
[20:04] <ibanezmatt13> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7_0NoRHOEM
[20:05] <Willdude123> Most people think I'm atheist.
[20:05] <Willdude123> Can't figure out why
[20:05] <ibanezmatt13> But then, there's this guy who really is a true person: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYqPDgaT_d0
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[20:13] <chrisstubbs> I woke up this morning to fix my 3d printer, started cleaning the dust and stuff off it, tidied up my desk ready to work on it, then tidied the house, then cleaned the windows... got a bit carried away at stage 1 there
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:14] <chrisstubbs> oh and whilst cleaning the windows i noticed one of the handles was broken so had to deal with that... I cant just work on one thing haha
[20:14] <mfa298> now you'll spend all day tomorrow trying to find something you put away in a safe place today and can't find.
[20:14] <ibanezmatt13> see this is why NORB was a success. I have the most untidy bedroom in the whole of humanity, but it's great for electronics :)
[20:14] <chrisstubbs> mfa298, true!
[20:15] <ibanezmatt13> no comments about the success of NORB please... :P
[20:15] <chrisstubbs> if you organise stuff in a mountain then the most used stuff stays on top. maximum efficiency.
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[20:15] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs, Which 3d printer is that? How did you afford it?
[20:15] <chrisstubbs> prusa mendel
[20:16] <mfa298> I knew one guy who hadn't moved office for many years and the desk was piled high with papers.
[20:16] <mfa298> if you needed something he could pull it out from the right level of paper (like office archiology)
[20:16] <chrisstubbs> the most expensive bit was the stepper motors, printed most of the parts at college and the rest was nuts and bolts and threaded rod from toolstation
[20:16] <x-f> chrisstubbs, http://i.imgur.com/Fy75IvC.gif :)
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[20:17] <ibanezmatt13> howdy eroomde
[20:17] <chrisstubbs> x-f haha knew I had seen that before!
[20:17] <eroomde> yoyo ibanezmatt13
[20:18] <ibanezmatt13> there's a maths teacher at our college called yoyo
[20:18] <ibanezmatt13> I really wind her up
[20:19] <ibanezmatt13> that went down well :P
[20:20] <chrisstubbs> My day was so close to that gif, I actually noticed the runners on the windows were a bit stiff and cleaned them out
[20:20] <eroomde> you were competiting with this
[20:20] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsVTpX7LdZQ
[20:20] <chrisstubbs> Must go out into the real world tomorrow
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[20:22] <ibanezmatt13> what a nose
[20:23] <Willdude123> hi eroomde
[20:23] <eroomde> hi Willdude123
[20:23] <Willdude123> eroomde, might quit the physics course, it's a little too complicated and fast paced
[20:24] <Willdude123> Also I got banned from ##physics so that doesn't help
[20:24] <eroomde> the joy of self studying is that you can go at your own pace
[20:24] <eroomde> you must have done something silly to get banned from there
[20:25] <ibanezmatt13> did you find the secret to our existance and they didn't like it
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[20:25] <Willdude123> eroomde, I asked a question, later came back and said I'd figured it out and needed no help anymore.
[20:26] <Willdude123> I got muted after asking another question, to which people practically just said "deal with it" or figure it out yourself.
[20:26] <eroomde> on their own these are probably not ban worthy
[20:26] <eroomde> maybe it was the way you said it
[20:26] <Willdude123> Then PMed someone asking why I was muted for that, banned for PMming withour asking in the channel
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[20:27] <eroomde> PMing is antisocial
[20:27] <Willdude123> It's not the end of the world, you live and learn.
[20:27] <eroomde> best not to do it unless invited to do so
[20:27] <Willdude123> How else was I expected to resolve it
[20:28] <Willdude123> I think the quote that someone mentioned about 99% of the internet being good is true.
[20:28] <chrisstubbs> 99% of the internet is photos of cats
[20:29] <ibanezmatt13> not sure whether to stay up and edit some photos from today or get an early night and listen to radio 4 extra comedy club :/
[20:29] <ibanezmatt13> I was stood next to runway 23R at MAN at 6:00 this moening
[20:30] <ibanezmatt13> and I was moaning actually because it was flaming freezing
[20:30] <Upu> why 6am ?
[20:30] <Willdude123> Why not? :)
[20:30] <eroomde> radio 4
[20:30] <Willdude123> And why stand next to runway 23R?
[20:30] <Willdude123> And is that even legal
[20:30] <eroomde> radio 4 and peace is always a good solution
[20:31] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: Transatlantic heavies come in then :)
[20:31] <eroomde> sometimes i get up at 5.30/6, make a pot of coffee and just listen to radio 4
[20:31] <Upu> oh plane spotting ?
[20:31] <ibanezmatt13> no!
[20:31] <Willdude123> I forgot I liked Radio 4 comedy club.
[20:31] <ibanezmatt13> plane photography
[20:31] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[20:31] <Upu> oh ok
[20:31] <Upu> get any nice shots ?
[20:31] <Willdude123> That's what she said
[20:31] <ibanezmatt13> big big difference. I can't stand writing regs down
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[20:31] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: not really, pants quality light
[20:32] <Willdude123> How did you get right next to runway 23R?
[20:32] <ibanezmatt13> le footpath du publique
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[20:32] <Willdude123> Oh, was it outside the airport technically then or what?
[20:32] <ibanezmatt13> although a copper did ask us what we were doing
[20:32] <ibanezmatt13> but they always do
[20:33] <Upu> point a yagi at the incoming planes and say "I be jammin'"
[20:33] <Piet0r> Hi guys
[20:33] <ibanezmatt13> basically, I'd have been imprisoned for a while if I'd have gone forward 3 inches more
[20:33] <Upu> evening Piet0r
[20:33] <ibanezmatt13> haha lol
[20:33] <ibanezmatt13> I'd have been*, I haven't yet
[20:33] <ibanezmatt13> wait
[20:33] <ibanezmatt13> that's what I said -_-
[20:34] <Willdude123> That is what she said
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[20:34] <Willdude123> Do you have any photos of the spot?
[20:34] <Willdude123> Just interested where you were
[20:34] <ibanezmatt13> not really Will
[20:35] <Piet0r> I just got myself a Yaesu FT-817 :)
[20:35] <Piet0r> I'm so happy with it
[20:35] <DL1SGP> that is a lovely rig Piet0r
[20:35] <chrisstubbs> Piet0r, nice choice!
[20:35] <chrisstubbs> Dare I ask how much you paid for it?
[20:35] <Willdude123> It's hard to picture where you were.
[20:35] <Willdude123> I didn't think there were public viewing spots within the airport.
[20:36] <Piet0r> It's second hand
[20:36] <Upu> I approve entirely Piet0r
[20:36] <ibanezmatt13> Willdude123: As close to the runway as you can get without going past the restriction zone
[20:36] <Upu> battery pack will probably be shagged
[20:36] <Piet0r> ¬375,-
[20:36] <Willdude123> Isn't there a fence that gets in the way?
[20:36] <eroomde> very good purchase Piet0r
[20:36] <eroomde> very nice rig
[20:37] <Piet0r> Tha battery pack is quite alright actually
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[20:37] <mikestir> lame. nexus 7 headphone jack doesn't have the extra mic pin. was hoping to use it with mattbrejza's app
[20:37] <Piet0r> I did no mean to type Tha .. stupid iPhone
[20:38] <Willdude123> Would you have been allowed to bring a scanner ibanezmatt13 ?
[20:38] <craag> mikestir: Is that the new one?
[20:38] <mikestir> no the first gen
[20:38] <mikestir> don't know about the new one
[20:38] <ibanezmatt13> I do generally but I just hide it during interogation
[20:38] <mikestir> I'll run it on my nexus 4, but the bigger screen would have been nice
[20:39] <mfa298> Piet0r: welcome to the club (if you hadn't guessed half this channel owns an ft817)
[20:39] <Upu> I had two at one point
[20:39] <Piet0r> Yeah I figured ;)
[20:40] <Upu> I'm going to upgrade the battery on mine at some point
[20:40] <Upu> see what combination of lipos I can squeeze in the comparment
[20:40] <craag> Upu: Yeah sounded like you need to.
[20:40] <Piet0r> Yeah mine is only 1400mah :?
[20:40] <Willdude123> Nice. Did you plan out where you were going to view the runway from?
[20:40] <Willdude123> Also is there no fence or anything?
[20:40] <Upu> craag its 3 years old
[20:40] <craag> What chemistry is the one in there?
[20:40] <Willdude123> oh hi Upu
[20:41] <Upu> and the standard battery pack is crappy anyway
[20:41] <Willdude123> Sent off the board design (again)
[20:41] <Upu> you won't get much TX time on it
[20:41] <Upu> hi Will
[20:41] <Piet0r> yes
[20:41] <Upu> cool Will
[20:41] <mfa298> I think the standard 817 pack is NiMH
[20:41] <Piet0r> It is
[20:41] <Willdude123> Just waiting to order, then I'll buy a Ublox from you.
[20:41] <craag> Ah ok, yes those don't tend to last long.
[20:41] <mfa298> I'm surprised mine can still manage to stay on rx for a while seeing how badly I've treated the battery
[20:41] <Willdude123> Are there any specifications I need to confirm with you before ordering?
[20:42] <Upu> me ?
[20:42] <Upu> Read Mitch's instructions
[20:42] <Willdude123> For the ubx. :0
[20:42] <Willdude123> *ublox
[20:43] <Upu> keep going still not with you
[20:43] <Willdude123> Like the board had a number of options about backup battery jumpers and stuff.
[20:44] <Willdude123> Are there any such things to worry about when ordering a module? Sorry can't get on your shop atm
[20:45] <Piet0r> *cough*eBay*cough*
[20:45] <Piet0r> ;)
[20:45] <Upu> I closed shop as I can't fulfil the orders at the moment
[20:45] <Upu> will reopen in 2 weeks hopefully
[20:46] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, thanks :)
[20:46] <Willdude123> Ah OK. Is there some issue with suppliers or something?
[20:47] <Willdude123> I'd rather just wait than ebay it http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/U-Blox-UBLOX-MAX6-MAX-6Q-ULTRA-small-GPS-receiver-module-NEW-FPV-RC-/260941973613?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc15a886d
[20:47] <Upu> No I had a operation on Monday and I'm signed off for 2 weeks
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[20:47] <Upu> holy yes wait WillDuckworth
[20:47] <Upu> sorry
[20:47] <Upu> Willdude123
[20:50] <ibanezmatt13> I think I need a dark room and some radio 4 extra comedy club for 2 hours. Followed by the awesome 7th dimension at 12. I would recommend both. Night all! :)
[20:50] <M6PFX> will the ntx2b's be on sale then?
[20:50] <DL1SGP> good night ibanezmatt13
[20:50] <Upu> soon M6PFX
[20:50] <Upu> I need to mail them
[20:50] <Upu> but like I say off work atm
[20:50] <Upu> thx for reminding me actually
[20:51] <Upu> as I need to mail them a list of frequencies
[20:51] <DL1SGP> please take your time to recover Upu, hope you are all better again quick
[20:51] <enkidu> Ill need something able to receive radiosondes too, and preferable portable
[20:51] <enkidu> but its like $1k
[20:51] <Upu> thx DL1SGP
[20:51] <M6PFX> ah ok to be pre programmed etc.
[20:51] <DL1SGP> why that expensive enkidu
[20:51] <Upu> at the moment yes M6PFX
[20:51] <Upu> I am discussing it with Radiometrix
[20:51] <M6PFX> ok np
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[20:51] <Upu> I think best I'm going to get is I have the ability to program it before I post it
[20:52] <M6PFX> good luck with the recovery hope you get back to 100% quick
[20:52] <Upu> thx :) Me too its boring
[20:52] <Upu> I don't do not doing anything
[20:52] <Upu> its not me
[20:52] <M6PFX> best to listen to the docs
[20:52] <Upu> indeed
[20:53] <DL1SGP> enkidu: for portable radiosonde operations I use a rather cheap scanner or one of the SDRs (Funcube Dongle or RTL-SDR) along with software decoding on a notebook
[20:53] <Upu> yeah the original FCD can do radiosondes
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, get well soon, hope it wasn't bad
[20:53] <Upu> I don't think the FCD Pro+ can ?
[20:53] <Upu> cheers Lunar
[20:53] <enkidu> DL1SGP: rtldsr is nice thing of course, but I dont imagine running with laptop, headphones and yagi
[20:53] <DL1SGP> Pro+ cannot, I have #168 of first batch here :)
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, got a moment probably?
[20:54] <mfa298> I think the FCD Pro+ struggles with radio sondes as it's got the hole around there. Some might just make it but it's outside the official range
[20:54] <DL1SGP> enkidu: get a boafent UV3R, works for radiosonde
[20:54] <Upu> tomorrow Lunar_Lander I'm going to log now
[20:54] <Upu> night all
[20:54] <DL1SGP> 39 bucks
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[20:54] <M6PFX> i love my funcube+
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> night!
[20:54] <DL1SGP> sleep well Upu
[20:54] <fsphil> My FCD++ can receive sondes on 402mhz
[20:54] <fsphil> but I don't believe it's officially covered
[20:54] <fsphil> so it might vary between units
[20:55] <mfa298> I think mine cut out just above 402
[20:55] <DL1SGP> yeah, still if you are in the close approach and the sonde has landed already, you are likely to get a position from it, if not make sure you use proper rinex data to reduce GPS error rate
[20:55] <mfa298> officially it's 420 and up
[20:56] <DL1SGP> and with a small device like the UV3R plus Yagi Plus attenuator you can hunt without any decoding software at all, won't help you much on close approach
[20:58] <DL1SGP> enkidu: I might do some hunt in 2 weeks, so if that happens I will make sure to take a video of it :)
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[21:03] <enkidu> :)
[21:04] <enkidu> I can use stationary receiver plus mobile one - stationary would track sonde in air, mobile - after landing
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[21:19] <enkidu> wth is that noise ;/
[21:20] <DL1SGP> :)
[21:21] <enkidu> do you think, that using square to sine wave converter would be good enough for me?
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[21:23] <DL1SGP> heh to answer your question, it is a trunk system
[21:23] <enkidu> ah
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[21:24] <DL1SGP> the digital transfers you hear are channel control things, and just right now the voice channel got occupied by people actually speaking
[21:24] <enkidu> good to know
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[21:26] <enkidu> any idea how to generate stable 480khz sine? I think of using quartz rated at 16*480khz, frequency divider, square to sine converter
[21:28] <mikestir> enkidu: I've done that before
[21:28] <enkidu> how?
[21:28] <mikestir> umm, 4060(?) cmos divider and an NE602
[21:29] <mikestir> it was years ago
[21:29] <enkidu> basically I have this things on breadboard
[21:29] <ike> 'enkidu buy DDS from ebay
[21:29] <mikestir> it doesn't need to be sine for an IF converter because the signal is already band limited by the IF filter
[21:29] <enkidu> good to know
[21:29] <mikestir> and you're feeding a receiver with a selective front-end, so the images you get from a square LO should all be out of band
[21:30] <mikestir> the thing I made was to receive the PSK data channel on long wave radio 4
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[21:31] <mikestir> that just used a TRF front-end with a tuned ferrite rod, mixed down to AF. even that worked fine with a square LO
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> epic lulz
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> www.st.com
[21:31] <natrium42> looks like a redirection loop
[21:31] <mikestir> haha
[21:31] <mikestir> st are particularly bad at websites
[21:32] <enkidu> I would like to look at band of AM receiver
[21:32] <mikestir> enkidu: are you mixing down to AF to drive a sound card?
[21:32] <enkidu> yes
[21:33] <enkidu> I dont want to use ceramic oscillators that have 2khz drift
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[21:35] <ike> enkidu http://www.ebay.com/itm/AD9850-DDS-Signal-Generator-Module-0-40MHz-IC-Test-Equipment-HC-SR08-/221279011148?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338541c14c
[21:35] <ike> you can find cheaper ones
[21:36] <Mik_WD8MNV> i have one of those around here somewhere
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[21:37] <enkidu> ike: probably this is nice solution, but I want to try something myself. Just good to know that ne612 dont need sine
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[21:40] <mikestir> enkidu: just make sure you don't overvolt the LO input on the mixer. you might need to pot it down a bit
[21:40] <enkidu> yeah, that makes sense
[21:42] <mikestir> LO being square just means it will be sensitive to signals at odd harmonics, but these would all be filtered out by the IF filter in your rx anyway
[21:43] <enkidu> actually, I gonna steal IF signal from my receiver then mix with external LO to get soundcard acceptable signal
[21:44] <enkidu> everything before filters, so probably wide enough
[21:44] <enkidu> if not - I have second NE612 that could be used to steal HF and LO inside tuner
[21:47] <mikestir> I'd just try it. If you find you get unacceptable spurious responses you could maybe use a tuned IF transformer to clean up the LO a bit
[21:53] Nick change: G0TDJ_Steve -> G0TDJ_AFK
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[22:02] <DanielRichman> adamgreig: iirc there's a *3.6 in snus uploader
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[22:18] <Willdude123> OK Upu. Hope you recover well.
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[22:41] <enkidu> hope, tah someone will hear 11
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[22:57] <chrisstubbs> Night all
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[23:28] <LeoBodnar> adamgreig: around?
[23:28] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: here?
[23:28] <adamgreig> yo LeoBodnar
[23:29] <LeoBodnar> yo!
[23:29] <adamgreig> how's it going
[23:29] <LeoBodnar> I think I have finally broken my code completely :)
[23:29] <adamgreig> haha excellent
[23:29] <LeoBodnar> ANyway I went back to basics
[23:29] <adamgreig> don't say I didn't tell you, version control :P
[23:29] <adamgreig> cool
[23:30] <LeoBodnar> I am comparing the correlation match on the "$$B-11," pattern in the data and seeing strange things
[23:30] <adamgreig> how do you know what the first frequency is for the first $, out of interest?
[23:30] <adamgreig> or do you check 'em all
[23:31] <LeoBodnar> If I correlate individual frequency "chips" or whatever they are properly called and then sum the results then it works down to -30dB noise
[23:31] <LeoBodnar> If I maintain synchronous phase then it breaks and can't locate the sync
[23:32] <LeoBodnar> BIzarre
[23:32] <adamgreig> hm
[23:32] <LeoBodnar> I am exhaustively check for all 18 possible start freqs
[23:32] <adamgreig> don't know if fldigi is generating coherent phase fsk, though it should be
[23:32] <LeoBodnar> *ing
[23:33] <adamgreig> when you say it "works" down to -30dB - what does that mean? generally this is the detection problem so you need some kind of threshold to say whether it was detected or not?
[23:33] <adamgreig> I made a coherent dominoex generator so I should be able to generate accurate signal levels against noise now
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[23:33] <adamgreig> but there is still some issue about how many bits are being transferred and thus how much energy there is per bit, and how to measure error rates :P
[23:33] <adamgreig> what do you do differently when you try and be coherent?
[23:33] <LeoBodnar> Yes it does, I have plotted the clean fldigi signal along with my convolution sin() cos() LO and they run along beautifully at constant phase offset through the whole header
[23:34] Action: Laurenceb_ is watching x-files movie
[23:34] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[23:35] <LeoBodnar> When I am doing coherent check I run convolution accumulation through the whole header an then calculated sin^2+cos^2
[23:36] <LeoBodnar> Otherwise I calculate sin^2*cos^2 after each tone change which is essentially ignores coherent phase across chip boundaries
[23:37] <LeoBodnar> I have also checked fldigi code and it seems proper, it carries over correct phase across tone changes
[23:37] <adamgreig> ok. well I mean, I would expect fldigi to do that
[23:37] <adamgreig> so that's fine
[23:37] <adamgreig> so you're saying if you sum up the correlation for the LO during each symbol, then sum each of those, you find the header ok
[23:38] <adamgreig> but if you sum up the lo correlation for the entire header duration, i.e. several symbols, you don't find anything?
[23:38] <LeoBodnar> I would have expected coherent convolution to pull out signal from deeper into the noise... But it is juts the opposite
[23:38] <LeoBodnar> correct adamgreig
[23:39] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: so far no signal on receiver
[23:39] <Laurenceb_> enkidu: where are you?
[23:39] <LeoBodnar> Well, the window is about two days wide enkidu :)
[23:40] <adamgreig> so yes in theory if your demod remains coherent you should get 2 or 3dB better
[23:40] <adamgreig> (it's one or the other, not either, but I can't remember which)
[23:40] <adamgreig> so you're changing the LO frequency coherently too
[23:40] <adamgreig> and correlating it up?
[23:40] <adamgreig> are you sure you're changing the LO freq coherently?
[23:41] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: middle east receiver found by DL7AD
[23:41] <adamgreig> sorry if that's a stupid question to be asking, but it might explain why it works when you stop being coherent
[23:41] <LeoBodnar> I wonder if it has something to do with digitised nature of the process. I am running 16kHz digitised signal
[23:42] <adamgreig> 16kHz is way plenty for a 1kHz signal
[23:42] <adamgreig> so you should be ok
[23:42] <adamgreig> but you might always be doing something silly like quantising too much or using too-small amplitude signals
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[23:43] <LeoBodnar> I was wondering about that too. I have ended up outputting LO signal together with input one and checked them manually to remain at the same phase offset throughout the whole header length across tone changes
[23:43] <adamgreig> when you say they remain at the same phase offset, what do you mean?
[23:43] <DL7AD> http://lantv.ds.pg.gda.pl:8080 still listening to the stream. no balloon yet.
[23:43] <adamgreig> they change frequency so...
[23:43] <adamgreig> are the signals continuous (to a first degree) between changing frequency/symbols?
[23:44] <LeoBodnar> will LO starts at 0 deg phase while input signal can start at e.g. 90
[23:44] <LeoBodnar> but the maintain this 90 deg difference throughout
[23:44] <LeoBodnar> *well
[23:46] <adamgreig> you might find things work better if you align the two
[23:46] <adamgreig> but coherency also means not changing phase when you change frequency
[23:46] <adamgreig> so like, how do you generate the LO when it changes frequency?
[23:46] <adamgreig> (are you using an accumulator and having it as a phase offset, or just sin(wt) and changing w?)
[23:46] <LeoBodnar> keep adding incremental phase at different rate, standard way
[23:46] <adamgreig> yea ok
[23:47] <adamgreig> wonder if a phase locked loop would help
[23:47] <adamgreig> have you looked at the input and LO samples in a transition period?
[23:48] <LeoBodnar> I have run through various initial LO phase offset and confirmed that there the result does not change.
[23:48] <adamgreig> have you tried getting it so the phase offset is 0 between input and LO, though?
[23:48] <LeoBodnar> Magnitude of the result, obviously sin and cos buckets do but sin^2+cos^2 is the same
[23:49] <adamgreig> because in that case you'd expect super high correlation even from just the inphase
[23:49] <adamgreig> yea
[23:49] <adamgreig> is the code up anywhere?
[23:49] <enkidu> ok i am off, server would be up at least till power breakdown
[23:49] <adamgreig> are you doing all the correlations in time, or doing an fft?
[23:50] <LeoBodnar> Not yet, I have manually adjust initial LO offset to match the input signal. Beautiful coherency but no change in the result
[23:50] <LeoBodnar> thanks enkidu
[23:50] <LeoBodnar> in time
[23:51] <adamgreig> can you output the correlation score for each bucket even as you work over the whole header?
[23:51] <adamgreig> I guess not
[23:51] <LeoBodnar> Maybe we are at the calculation precision threshold?
[23:51] <adamgreig> I would be surprised
[23:52] <adamgreig> you're using doubles?
[23:52] <LeoBodnar> yes
[23:52] <adamgreig> you can check all the numbers but if nothing is getting close to overflow I would expect you should still see your result
[23:52] <adamgreig> can you try an intermediate?
[23:52] <adamgreig> rather than correlating for each symbol, try each two symbols?
[23:53] <adamgreig> so the one that doesn't work is basically preparing an LO copy of the entire header and shifting it against the whole input?
[23:53] <LeoBodnar> Not sure what you mean
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[23:55] <adamgreig> not sure what exactly you're doing when it doesn't work
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[23:56] <LeoBodnar> Ah, I have tried using coherent detection of the symbols after the header is found (which are basically two tones mostly) and non-coherent detection works better for them too.
[23:57] <LeoBodnar> This is counter-intuitive
[23:57] <adamgreig> indeed
[23:58] <LeoBodnar> My noise is white noise from Audacity. I am getting paranoid about this.
[23:58] <adamgreig> I'm not sure you are doing coherent demodulation at all, if you're still using two LOs at 90 degrees and summing the squares
[23:59] <adamgreig> coherent demodulation generally requires tracking the phase?
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[23:59] <adamgreig> the audacity white noise is hopefully fine - it's an audio program and that is what it's good at
[23:59] <adamgreig> easy enough to make some new samples that definitely have white noise
[23:59] <adamgreig> but that shouldn't affect this
[00:00] --- Sun Sep 15 2013