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[00:51] <K9JKM> .
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[06:00] <yo2ldk> G.M. friends
[06:01] <yo2ldk> someone put false targets on map?
[06:03] <x-f> good morning
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[06:04] <x-f> could be that he listened to someone's recording with dl-fldigi and uploaded it by accident
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[06:36] <fsphil> B-12 updated?
[06:36] <fsphil> nope, in the same place
[06:36] <fsphil> aww. got all excided :)
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[07:00] <DL1SGP> Good Morning!
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[07:03] <fsphil> morning
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[07:15] <LeoBodnar> morning!
[07:16] <arko> Mr Leo
[07:16] <arko> Morning
[07:16] <LeoBodnar> Mr Arko greetings :)
[07:17] <DL7AD> good morning
[07:19] <wb8elk> Can someone approve a flight doc for a manned Trans-Atlantic balloon with 20m RTTY : Flight Doc 833d6b76cc575e2ce2f109012b8e2423
[07:20] <sinaptik> I'm building my HAB with a 1W 900Mhz link, I've recently discovered the existance of APRS. Should I consider switching?
[07:20] <wb8elk> It will be on 14.0956 MHz 110 baud ASCII RTTY 8N1 every 10 minutes. Goal is to reach Ireland or the UK with a large quantity of small balloons.
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[07:21] <enkidu> wb8elk: manned??
[07:21] <wb8elk> Cluster Balloons
[07:21] <x-f> O.o
[07:21] <enkidu> sinaptik: 1W?
[07:21] <wb8elk> Yes...http://www.clusterballoon.com/
[07:21] <enkidu> are you gonna burn my receiver?
[07:21] <sinaptik> enkidu: yes, it's legal in my country
[07:23] <enkidu> i dont say "its legal/illegal" with proper height you dont need more that 100mW, Leo used 10mW
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[07:23] <fsphil> wb8elk: oh fantastic
[07:24] <sinaptik> I live in a semi-mountainous region, I'm hoping the extra power will help locating it when it lands
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[07:24] <sinaptik> in saying that, the radio also has auto power. So I guess it doesn't have to be at 1W always
[07:25] <sinaptik> is that 100mW at 900Mhz?
[07:25] <sinaptik> with directional antennas?
[07:26] <wb8elk> He is likely to launch his trans-Atlantic attempt possibly as early as tonight or tomorrow night. He's a ham operator.
[07:27] <wb8elk> Launching from Caribou, Maine
[07:27] <wb8elk> looks like he is using 150 tanks of helium or more
[07:28] <enkidu> unfortunately I am not able to receive 20m band
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[07:28] <fsphil> wb8elk: if you mention that flight doc in #habhub someone will get it sorted as soon as they see it
[07:28] <fsphil> I can receive 20m but it's a bit noisy
[07:28] <wb8elk> I'm curious about B-12 since it is reporting a Greek station receiving it near Turkey....perhaps the GPS hasn't updated but it is still transmitting and flying near the Greek/Turkish border
[07:29] <wb8elk> will do
[07:29] <enkidu> or... I am? old radio demod output with shifter
[07:29] <fsphil> the new funcube dongles are good on HF
[07:30] <LeoBodnar> I think it has been manually added retrospectively from an offline report wb8elk
[07:31] <fsphil> they're likely still up
[07:31] <fsphil> eastern europe / asia is a major blank area for rtty receivers
[07:31] <fsphil> wait, MANNED?
[07:32] <wb8elk> yes, manned
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[07:33] <fsphil> what float altitude?
[07:33] <wb8elk> probably ranging from 1500m to 5500m
[07:33] <wb8elk> will take him between 40 to 80 hours to make it across
[07:34] <fsphil> awesome
[07:34] <wb8elk> Hi Leo....I was hoping that B12 was a live report...probably they are both in areas where receiving stations are few and far between.
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[07:39] <fsphil> I was hoping they'd swing around again
[07:40] <enkidu> 11 should return to Europe in few days
[07:41] <LeoBodnar> we'll see what happens
[07:41] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: I was looking for saw filters all across europe
[07:42] <enkidu> and it seems, that one of points I can order it is in my city ><
[07:45] <LeoBodnar> Lucky enkidu !
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[07:46] <enkidu> yeah. I think I have to mody my AM receiver to make RX of manned balloon
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[07:52] <eroomde_> i have this weird thing about having a shower
[07:52] <eroomde_> 90% of the time it's great, i feel like a normal person
[07:53] <eroomde_> but occasionally some dormant bit of dan shared with cats must take over
[07:53] <eroomde_> and i stand underneath and think 'oh god i'm getting all wet!! this is horrible!!'
[07:53] <HixWork> good moaning peoples
[07:53] <eroomde_> it's strange
[07:53] <HixWork> ermmm what have i walked into
[07:53] <eroomde_> bit of dan, not dan
[07:53] <eroomde_> er, dna
[07:54] <HixWork> dans bits in the shower. oh dear
[07:55] <LeoBodnar> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/14851_trj001.gif 3 days
[07:55] <eroomde_> so it visits rejkavic and decides against it
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[07:56] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good Morning People
[07:56] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: on 20m band it will be able to receive him worldwide
[07:57] <LeoBodnar> I wonder what antenna he is using
[07:57] <HixWork> any news on B11 / B12 LeoBodnar ?
[07:57] <LeoBodnar> no HixWork
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[07:57] <HixWork> :/
[07:58] <Upu> wrong altitude on that Hysplit
[07:58] <LeoBodnar> No man's land for both of them
[07:58] <HixWork> at least you had a good innings with them :)
[07:58] <Upu> Watch them reappear in a month or two
[07:58] <LeoBodnar> That's what the balloon man said he will be flying at
[07:58] <HixWork> hopefully over the SW of UK
[07:59] <LeoBodnar> http://www.clusterballoon.com/ Upu
[07:59] <HixWork> circumnagigation with a langing at Silverstone would be pretty neat
[08:00] <fsphil> this does mean you can't use these frequencies again LeoBodnar ;)
[08:00] <fsphil> not for a while anyway
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[08:00] <HixWork> morning Babs
[08:01] <LeoBodnar> I think I keep clustering all my balloons around 434.500 with some 250Hz shifts for the future
[08:01] <LeoBodnar> *will
[08:01] <LeoBodnar> You are OK Upu ?
[08:02] <x-f> LeoBodnar, will you launch B-13 on Friday, 13th or skip straight to B-14?
[08:02] <adamgreig> LeoBodnar: you were thinking about doing that prn thing for telemetry earlier right
[08:02] <LeoBodnar> adamgreig: yes, some strange thoughts sometime happen to me
[08:03] <adamgreig> did you find any bpsk radios?
[08:03] <LeoBodnar> x-f: that would be funny :D
[08:03] <LeoBodnar> No, but there should be ways
[08:03] <adamgreig> ways of making bpsk?
[08:04] <LeoBodnar> Yeah
[08:04] <adamgreig> I was hoping to find some chip radios in sub-1GHz
[08:04] <adamgreig> but no one seems to make any
[08:04] <LeoBodnar> But I have been advised that MFSK is more power-efficient at the expense of the BW which e have plenty
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[08:05] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: would you make long log working?
[08:05] <adamgreig> yea
[08:05] <G0TDJ_Steve> Thanks to whomever cleared my tests off of Tracker...
[08:05] <adamgreig> but I don't think you can do DSSS with MFSK
[08:05] <LeoBodnar> will do enkidu
[08:05] <adamgreig> at best FHSS which isn't really as nice
[08:06] <LeoBodnar> Do we really need SS?
[08:06] <adamgreig> well no
[08:06] <adamgreig> not at all
[08:06] <adamgreig> it's almost entirely pointless for our telemetry at 434MHz
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[08:06] <adamgreig> and most of our receivers won't be able to pick it up
[08:06] <adamgreig> I wanted it for other plans ;)
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[08:06] <LeoBodnar> I was confused with GPS and considered SS to be part of the necessary magic
[08:06] <LeoBodnar> it's not
[08:06] <adamgreig> hmmmm
[08:06] <LeoBodnar> I see
[08:07] <adamgreig> it kind of is though
[08:07] <adamgreig> I mean you could make a GPS system without it but
[08:07] <adamgreig> it wouldn't work
[08:07] <LeoBodnar> yeah, beacsue frequencides will be different, etc
[08:07] <adamgreig> code gain is pretty much the only way you could recover a signal from that high orbit and wide footprint without serious transmit antennas which would probably nuke each other
[08:08] <adamgreig> GLONASS uses FDMA but still DSSS
[08:08] <LeoBodnar> But if you have one sat transmitting on the same carrieer freq it does not need SS
[08:09] <adamgreig> well no. but you lose coding gain
[08:09] <adamgreig> are you still thinking of doing a PRN here?
[08:09] <adamgreig> how would you do the PRN in a useful fashion without SS?
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[08:14] <LeoBodnar> Why do we need PRN altogether? It serves just as a unique sync, doesn't it?
[08:14] <adamgreig> yea
[08:14] <number10> MIT have an online electronics course https://6002x.mitx.mit.edu/courseware/
[08:15] <adamgreig> I mean, are you still thinking of doing anything beyond normal telemetry?
[08:15] <LeoBodnar> So any unique sync sequence with good randomness will do
[08:15] <adamgreig> MFSK telem is definitely great
[08:15] <adamgreig> oh
[08:15] <adamgreig> well uhm
[08:15] <adamgreig> pretty much by definition a unique sync sequence with good randomness is a PRN
[08:15] <LeoBodnar> agree
[08:15] <adamgreig> but what are you using it for, and how are you transmitting it?
[08:16] <LeoBodnar> I am not just jet, playing with ideas
[08:16] <LeoBodnar> It's a no go anyway with current infrastructure
[08:16] <adamgreig> unfortunately
[08:16] <LeoBodnar> what is coding gain?
[08:16] <adamgreig> if only we all had 40MS/s SDRs with GPSDO clocks
[08:16] <eroomde_> if only
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[08:16] <LeoBodnar> running from the same clock source
[08:17] <adamgreig> GPSDO would see to that nicely
[08:17] <LeoBodnar> THe whole world is one phased array antenna
[08:17] <adamgreig> coding gain is basically where you get increased SNR by despreading a signal
[08:17] <eroomde_> right going to work
[08:17] <eroomde_> bbl
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[08:18] <LeoBodnar> any references to read?
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[08:19] <adamgreig> uhm
[08:20] <adamgreig> anything on spread spectrum or direct sequence spread spectrum I guess
[08:20] <adamgreig> not sure I have any sources handy
[08:20] <adamgreig> wikipedia is not so hot on that
[08:20] <adamgreig> but hams have written tomes
[08:20] <adamgreig> which is funny considering how little they use it
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[08:25] <LeoBodnar> ok, will look
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[08:31] <Elwell> export PS1='C:${PWD//\//\\\}>'
[08:32] <Elwell> if you want to be evil
[08:32] <Elwell> err wrong window
[08:36] <fsphil> Evil? Nope, you've come to the right place
[08:37] <DL7AD> °^!"§$%&/()=?´{[]}\~+*#'-_.:,;<>|äöüÄÖÜ
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[08:42] <HejHoppGumminopp> http://spacenear.us/tracker is still showing B-11 and B-12 as airborne??
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[08:45] <SpeedEvil> they likely are
[08:45] <SpeedEvil> at least one of them
[08:49] <enkidu> they are just out of range
[08:49] <SpeedEvil> the last packet from b12 looks very questionable though
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[08:49] <SpeedEvil> I mean, for one thing, it's from the future
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[08:50] <enkidu> 1) its not last 2) someone was listening to example recording while being online
[08:51] <Steve_at_Work> ping fsphil
[08:52] <SpeedEvil> then why does it fit with the trajectory other than being in the future
[08:52] <SpeedEvil> unless someone had made up a recording of that point of course
[08:52] <enkidu> because it was recording of point in the past, that was on trajectory
[08:52] <nats`> hi
[08:53] <SpeedEvil> oh, it's a repeat of the last point, at local time?
[08:53] <enkidu> yep
[08:54] <nats`> <SpeedEvil> [10:48:44] I mean, for one thing, it's from the future <= Ohhh fuck Aliens everywhere !
[08:56] <LeoBodnar> B-12 projection http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/18075_trj001.gif
[08:56] <LeoBodnar> Do we wait or do we call it a day?
[08:56] <enkidu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/18382_trj001.gif
[08:56] <enkidu> B-11 using archived data
[08:57] <nats`> you don't have any contact in the far east to listen ?
[08:57] <enkidu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/18454_trj001.gif
[08:58] <enkidu> with longer data plot it seems, that it could crashed in Himalaya
[08:58] <fsphil> pong Steve_at_Work
[08:58] <LeoBodnar> enkidu: why is it so radically different from GFSG forecast?
[08:59] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: it is based on weather archive, not forecasts
[08:59] <enkidu> dont know why
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[09:00] <enkidu> wrong day, sorry
[09:00] <Ugi> LeoBodnar: do I gather B-12 is still transmitting but B-11 either down or lost?
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[09:01] <enkidu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/18741_trj001.gif - proper one
[09:01] <LeoBodnar> Ugi: no, both last heard two days ago 9 Sep
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[09:02] <DL1SGP> Both still could be transmitting, we just had no ears in the area
[09:02] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodbar: http://wsprnet.org/drupal/node/4080
[09:02] <Laurenceb_> https://github.com/threeme3/WsprryPi/blob/master/wspr.c
[09:02] <Laurenceb_> they use the pll hack i was thinking of
[09:03] <Laurenceb_> only a more goofy implementation
[09:03] <enkidu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/18824_trj001.gif
[09:03] <DL1SGP> yes Laurenceb that WSPR thing is based on same hack as PiFM
[09:03] <Ugi> LeoBodnar: shame - they had remarkable flights.
[09:04] <DL1SGP> I was playing with it just yesterday, it is not really something I would recommend to use in any "official" context, plenty of spurious transmissions through harmonies
[09:05] <Laurenceb_> yeah you need good filtering
[09:05] <Babs> Morning HIxWork - morning everyone
[09:05] <Babs> Last night i used the law of sines for the first time since A-Levels. It was most satisfying.
[09:06] <DL1SGP> still the "base" is unstable. when I adjusted the bandwidth to be rather "N-FM" the entire hack screwed up and went to sending a continuous noise on various frequencies. I am experimenting with adding some functions to make sure the GPIO state is properly cleaned once that transmission is done
[09:06] <DL1SGP> Great Job Babs
[09:06] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: is there any documentation for your SSDV stuff,
[09:07] <Steve_at_Work> just built a linux box to have a play, but dont know where to start lol
[09:07] <DL1SGP> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ssdv?s[]=ssdv
[09:07] <Steve_at_Work> at this moment in time i would just be happy to create a WAV file (if thats what it does)
[09:07] <mfa298> i think the ssdv documentatioon consists of the wiki page and the ssdv code on github
[09:08] <DL1SGP> it creates a file that contains the ssdv data Steve_at_Work
[09:08] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: this is the source code https://github.com/fsphil/ssdv
[09:08] <Steve_at_Work> Yeah seen that, i thought , it would be just a case of calling a command SSDV ...........
[09:08] <DL1SGP> it is :)
[09:08] <fsphil> well that code will compile a program, called ssdv :)
[09:08] <Steve_at_Work> ive got all the source code
[09:09] <Steve_at_Work> yep ive done the "make"
[09:09] <DL1SGP> have you tried to issue the "make"
[09:09] <mfa298> it just reads in an image file and spits out a file that can then be sent over rtty (or some other datamode)
[09:09] <DL1SGP> then you have a file called ssdv
[09:09] <fsphil> Steve_at_Work: after make, run sudo make install
[09:09] <Steve_at_Work> yes
[09:09] <Laurenceb_> DL1SGP: its rather limited
[09:09] <DL1SGP> Laurenceb_: agreed :D
[09:09] <Laurenceb_> they are using DMA with a huge page of values for the PLL N register
[09:10] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: Anything with Pi is goofy </bigotmode>
[09:10] <Laurenceb_> so any bus contention (you'll get a lot on ARM11) and it gives phase noise
[09:10] <Laurenceb_> STM32F4 has a nice AHB matrix and banked sram
[09:10] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: done sudo make install
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[09:10] <Laurenceb_> and you only need to do two DMA transactions to get the same job done, using PWM
[09:10] <fsphil> Steve_at_Work: right, so you now have an ssdv command. run ssdv --help for some info
[09:11] <Laurenceb_> so 1000 times less DMA and less risk of contention
[09:11] <Laurenceb_> no risk if you set it up nicely
[09:11] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: great thanks i'll take a look
[09:11] <fsphil> but basically to encode a file, you'd run ssdv -e -c CALLSIGN -i 0 picture.jpeg output.bin
[09:11] <Laurenceb_> but im impressed they got phase noise low enough to do WSPR
[09:11] <fsphil> -i sets the image ID -- you want to change this for each image
[09:11] <Laurenceb_> also they got nice WSPR range
[09:12] <fsphil> so the ground stations can tell when a new image begins
[09:12] <fsphil> brb
[09:13] <Laurenceb_> ha no way
[09:13] <Laurenceb_> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--UV1X2iTqeE/UKklX7hOgoI/AAAAAAAAArg/_NwQFFPpJLM/B12A8F54-A1C8-4245-BF7D-446C2D44421C.jpg
[09:13] <Laurenceb_> ^ rpi on 40m
[09:13] <adamgreig> lol
[09:13] <adamgreig> using the hacky gpio thing?
[09:13] <Laurenceb_> yes
[09:14] <adamgreig> lol
[09:14] <Laurenceb_> and DMA to the second PLL
[09:14] <adamgreig> what antenna?
[09:14] <Laurenceb_> they dont say
[09:14] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: cheers, unfortunately someone has just brought me some work so wont be able to have a play for a while lol
[09:14] <adamgreig> probably more than a piece of random length wire soldered to the pin
[09:15] <Laurenceb_> http://va3paw.com/2013/05/31/wspr-beacon-on-raspberry-pi/
[09:16] <Laurenceb_> someones documented it - lower range
[09:16] <Laurenceb_> http://gerolfziegenhain.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/raspi-as-wspr-transmitter/
[09:17] <LeoBodnar> What is the baudrate?
[09:17] <Laurenceb_> very low
[09:18] <Laurenceb_> 1.4baud FSK4, 2 minutes per tx
[09:18] <Laurenceb_> lots of FEC
[09:19] <LeoBodnar> There will be about 2.5 listeners who are really excited about this
[09:20] <Laurenceb_> haha
[09:20] <Laurenceb_> http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/map
[09:21] <LeoBodnar> What is unique about WSPR? Is it not just low rate MFSK?
[09:21] <gonzo__> there is even lower rates used on vlf. Where they send CW with dot times in 10's if minutes
[09:21] <LeoBodnar> With FEC
[09:21] <Laurenceb_> http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/stats
[09:21] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: yes, but it has a listener network and standard format
[09:22] <Laurenceb_> and map
[09:22] <LeoBodnar> I don't have full licence just yet to start from
[09:22] <LeoBodnar> Is it 30m band?
[09:22] <gonzo__> the licence exam will just be a formality for you!
[09:22] <Laurenceb_> mostly 20m by the look of it
[09:23] <fsphil> Steve_at_Work: hate it when that happens :)
[09:23] <LeoBodnar> I have one booked for October gonzo__
[09:24] <gonzo__> good man
[09:24] <gonzo__> chosen your callsign yet?
[09:25] <Rebounder> LeoBodnar: at what freq?
[09:26] <Laurenceb_> http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/spots
[09:26] <Laurenceb_> looks like halfway round the world is feasible with 50mW
[09:27] <LeoBodnar> not yet, can you see available UK callsigns without having the pass details?
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[09:28] <mfa298> I don't think you can see the official list of what's available until you've passed, but you can often find if things are taken with sites like qrz.com (or a general google search)
[09:28] <LeoBodnar> Maybe regular telemetry on ISM HF band can be alternated with WSPR transmissions
[09:29] <Laurenceb_> or geofence
[09:29] <Laurenceb_> to switch to WSPR
[09:29] <LeoBodnar> Say 13.560MHz and 20m band
[09:35] <LeoBodnar> enkidu: where do you get the images from?
[09:37] <Rebounder> I've been playing around with WSPR a bit. Very impressive range, but a bit problematic if you don't have accurate transciever/receiver since it's very hard to spot weak signals in waterfall and bw-window is narrow.
[09:37] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: hysplit archival
[09:37] <enkidu> ive also plotted again B12's two day tour de France
[09:38] <Rebounder> But since the balloons have GPS that is probably not much of a problem.
[09:38] <Laurenceb_> i was looking at this problem
[09:38] <Laurenceb_> it seems a good TCXO makes it work
[09:38] <Laurenceb_> its an issue on the rpi version as they use the crystal
[09:42] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/1554_trj001.gif
[09:42] <enkidu> some of them are pretty close to what I made using maps only
[09:42] <LeoBodnar> Interesting divergence
[09:43] <gonzo__> the cfreq al on your average ham tcvr is not good
[09:43] <Rebounder> Laurenceb_: but maybe not much of problem if you design the sysstem with a wider receiving-window that could allow some drifting
[09:43] <enkidu> remember, it was flying in region withn wind shear
[09:43] <gonzo__> freq cal
[09:43] <Laurenceb_> Rebounder: all the WSPR specs are nailed down
[09:43] <Laurenceb_> if you go outside the window the receivers will miss you
[09:44] <Laurenceb_> the idea would be to use the existing network for picoballoon rx
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[09:45] <Rebounder> Laurenceb_: right, if you wnat the existing network. and that's probably a huge assett
[09:46] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[09:46] <Laurenceb_> tcxo into an stm32f4 and job is done
[09:46] <Laurenceb_> and 1000times less
[09:46] <Laurenceb_> DMA than rpi
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[09:48] <DL7AD> good morning
[09:49] <DL1SGP> Du schon wieder, guten Morgen :D
[09:51] <enkidu> we need now receivers in Malta and Tunisia
[09:51] <enkidu> to chekc, if 11 is near
[09:52] <DL7AD> DL1SGP yes im currently driving to hamburg ;)
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[09:53] <LeoBodnar> Driving and IRCing?
[09:54] <Rebounder> Laurenceb_: how would you transfer more info with WPRS, like positioning etc?
[09:54] <Laurenceb_> well it includes position
[09:55] <Laurenceb_> the dual packet extended format should allow a couple of bytes of extra info and higher resolution position
[09:55] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[09:56] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: i get this error when running SSDV ssdv -e -c CALLSIGN -i 0 picture.jpeg output.bin
[09:56] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: not that, hang
[09:56] <Steve_at_Work> ssdv_enc_get_packet failed: -1
[09:57] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: is picture.jpeg an image file
[09:58] <mfa298> the ssdv program reads in that file and spits out a new one called output.bin
[09:58] <mfa298> you can change those names to match what you need
[09:58] <Steve_at_Work> mfa298: it should be its a "printscreen" from ubuntu saved as a JPEG
[09:59] <mfa298> I think there might also be restrictions on the numbers of rows/colums you can have
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[09:59] <Steve_at_Work> this is the actual command i used ssdv -e -c mycall -i 0 test.jpg output.bin
[10:00] <Rebounder> Laurenceb_: /msg Laurenceb_ "the second transmission carries a hashed callsign, 6-digit locator" - wiki
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[10:01] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: you might want to check you've actually got a jpg file ("file test.jpg" should tell you)
[10:02] <Steve_at_Work> mfa PNG Image data
[10:02] <fsphil> is it definitly a jpeg?
[10:02] <fsphil> there you go
[10:02] <fsphil> it has to be a jpeg
[10:02] <Steve_at_Work> no to work out how to get a jpg on to the linux box lol
[10:02] <fsphil> grab one of the internet :)
[10:03] <mfa298> there should be some easy magic you can do with something like ImageMagik to convert it - been a while since I've played with that though.
[10:03] <fsphil> there are a few restrictions on what types of jpeg it can use
[10:03] <fsphil> but it will tell you about these
[10:08] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: ok another error ERROR: The image dimensions must be a multiple of 16
[10:09] <fsphil> that's one of the restrictions :)
[10:09] <fsphil> both width and height have to be a multiple of 16
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[10:09] <fsphil> you can have 640x480 but not 641x480
[10:09] <Steve_at_Work> the res on the file i download was 366x366
[10:10] <fsphil> doesn't divide evenly into 16
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[10:14] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: ureka!!
[10:17] <DL1SGP> :)
[10:17] <mfa298> fsphil: you can't be a good coder, that error message actually gives useful information :p
[10:17] <Steve_at_Work> now the interesting working out how to send it over the ntx2
[10:18] <DL1SGP> it should spit out a cryptinc error like "px ratio mismatch, ratio is 1.2214124"
[10:18] <x-f> :)
[10:18] <fsphil> hah
[10:18] <fsphil> I shall get working on that straight away
[10:19] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: read it in and then send it in the same way you'de send telemetry (you need to be sending 8 databits though)
[10:19] <fsphil> yea you can dump the file in one go
[10:19] <fsphil> or split it up until 256 byte chunks and send them one at a time
[10:19] <fsphil> until = into
[10:19] <mfa298> I'd have at least expected the dimensions to be given as multiple of 0xf or 020
[10:19] <fsphil> sending it that way can be useful if you want to mix in telemetry between packets
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[10:21] <Steve_at_Work> sounds so easy lol
[10:21] Nick change: danielsaul -> Guest21447
[10:21] <fsphil> it's not too bad
[10:22] <Steve_at_Work> i suppose so, if you know what you are doing
[10:22] <Sven1987h> hello
[10:22] <fsphil> hiya Sven1987h
[10:22] <Steve_at_Work> hi sven
[10:22] <DL1SGP> Guten Tag Sven
[10:23] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: all code is easy once you know what you're doing, it's getting your head around what you're doing that's the hard part.
[10:23] <Steve_at_Work> well said
[10:23] <Steve_at_Work> my problem is i am trying to learn too many new things at once
[10:24] <fsphil> I'd have a play with getting text out of the ntx2
[10:24] <fsphil> if you can do simple strings then sending the image data isn't much harder
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[10:35] <Sven1987h> hiu
[10:35] <mfa298> Hello Sven1987h
[10:35] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: i can get RTTY out of the NTX2 no probs
[10:37] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: sending the image data you just need to send the data from the file rather than creating a telemetry string.
[10:37] <mfa298> the only thing to ensure is that you're using 8 data bits (rather than 7 - which is acceptable to telemetry)
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[10:39] <Steve_at_Work> mfa298: C isnt my strong point infact its virtually noexistant lol
[10:39] <mfa298> what platform are you doing this one (arduino / pi etc)
[10:40] <Sven1987h> Hey i want send SSDV over the NTX2 is it SSB compatible?
[10:40] <Steve_at_Work> probably the Pi as I have a pi cam
[10:40] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: in which case if you're new to programming you might find Python easier and if you're doing SSDV it makes a lot of sense to use the Pi rather than an arduino.
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[10:41] <Steve_at_Work> but one question was going to be, will the code from hadie-master compile in avrdude, it it did, thought I could look through it and see how it works
[10:41] <Steve_at_Work> mfa298: just started looking at python,
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[10:42] <mfa298> Sven1987h: SSDV is just a packetised format for jpeg images so you can send it via any method that allows standard 8 bit ascii characters. The standard approach is to send it over 300/600baud rtty
[10:42] <Steve_at_Work> is it simple to call the SSDV from a python script?
[10:42] <fsphil> I'd recommend python for this too
[10:42] <fsphil> yes
[10:42] <fsphil> pyserial makes it really easy
[10:42] <fsphil> and calling ssdv from python is easy too
[10:42] <Steve_at_Work> yep being playing with that
[10:43] <Steve_at_Work> i've loaded vmware player on my pc at work
[10:43] <Steve_at_Work> obviously i cannot transmit from work, but get 7.5hrs python practise in
[10:43] <Sven1987h> https://github.com/fsphil/ssdv/
[10:44] <Steve_at_Work> Sven1987h: got that
[10:44] <Sven1987h> Jap ich denke auch
[10:44] <mfa298> almost all the flights using a Pi so far have used python code. I think the only person that's used non python so far is Dave (and once my payload is ready I'll be using C++ as well but that's due to what I'm trying to do)
[10:47] <Steve_at_Work> i think my first launch will just be the arduino GPS and NTX2, as thats all working
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[10:50] <Steve_at_Work> is this circuit the same whether its an arduino or pi http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[10:51] <Sven1987h> mfa298: Have you a script to send the SSDV file? i can not find a script in www
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[10:51] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[10:52] <mfa298> Sven1987h: I don't have anything myself, but the standard approach is to use the ssdv application to create a file to send and then read that file in 256byte chunks and send those over the radio link.
[10:52] <arko> does anyone here know when Ed's workshop will be available online?
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[10:53] <adamgreig> arko: you're asking?
[10:53] <Sven1987h> ok but this script (https://github.com/fsphil/ssdv/) create the file only or?
[10:54] <adamgreig> aren't you with ed right now?
[10:54] <mfa298> arko: do you mean the recording of it (assuming it was recorded) or the slides etc. (in which case ask ed - and tell us)
[10:54] <adamgreig> oh right
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[10:55] <mfa298> Sven1987h: that program will just create a file with the data to send. You then need to read that data in and send it (depending on your choice of language, platform and data mode)
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[10:59] <Sven1987h> ok
[11:00] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
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[11:02] <Sven1987h> https://github.com/chrisstubbs93/PiCode/blob/master/FlightCode.py
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[11:04] <Steve_at_Work> mfa298: I think for the unexperienced programmers amomgst us, the difficult part is finding out how to read the file and write it out
[11:05] <enkidu> Steve_at_Work: use file as pointer and then use streams to read and write?
[11:05] <enkidu> (C++ way)
[11:05] <mfa298> Sven1987h: that looks like at least part of a flight code for a Pi, but you may need to do something slightly different to that
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[11:05] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: Reading files into a string is generally fairly easy to do.
[11:06] <mfa298> the code that Sven just posted has an example of that.
[11:06] <enkidu> mfa298: huge file loaded at once may overflow memory
[11:06] <mfa298> There's also ibanezmatt's NORB code of which some versions had ssdv in them
[11:07] <mfa298> enkidu: for ssdv it's not going to be huge - if it was it would never get sent.
[11:07] <mfa298> although I was thinking (but didn't type) that you'de probably want to read it in blocks (256 bytes being sensible as that's the ssdv packet length)
[11:09] <Steve_at_Work> nearly missed that code, that looks interesting i will have a look
[11:09] <enkidu> mfa298: still it is possible to use external ram for memory intense computation
[11:10] Geoff-G8DHE (~Geoff-G8D@geoffg8dhe.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[11:12] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work, Sven1987h: failing anything else the ssdv code in chrisstubs PiCode code shows the rough process for sending an ssdv image. But note that it might not be the best way of doing it.
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[11:16] <Steve_at_Work> mfa298: noted I am willing to compromise between "not the best way" and being able to understand it, once i understand and get it working then i can look at doing it better, but "doing it better" is a long long way off at the moment
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[11:19] <DL1SGP> SV5DKL,14:13:33,50.5782,26.7228,9357,6,-1,4.11,0.59 SV5DKL,14:10:54,50.596,26.7063,9363,5,-5,4.1,0.58 hmm
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[11:19] <DL1SGP> he must be sending with his local time if he currently is RXing the bird
[11:20] <enkidu> seems so
[11:20] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: one of the issues on that code is that it looks like it will send the complete image before going back to sending telemetry, so for a large image that could be several minutes between positions (which might be an issue as it comes down to land)
[11:24] <mfa298> DL1SGP: looking at the track for B12 I think that's someone playing back a recording from a couple of days ago. Either that or the Balloon hasn't moved in a couple of days.
[11:24] <DL1SGP> yes I just checked with the data on the log
[11:25] <DL1SGP> it matches what we received from Ukraine
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[11:25] <DL1SGP> also frame numbers are way too low to be valid compared to last tlm-frame we received
[11:27] <Sven1987h> mfa298: this for send the gps data right? x in range(0, gpstxs):
[11:27] <Sven1987h> datastring = "NSEPI," + str(msgi) + "," + str(tim) + "," + str(lat) + "," + str(lng)
[11:27] <Sven1987h> datastring = datastring + "*" + str(hex(crc16f(datastring))).upper()[2:]
[11:27] <Sven1987h> datastring = datastring + "\n"
[11:27] <Sven1987h> datastring = "$$$$" + datastring
[11:27] <Sven1987h> rtty.write(datastring)
[11:27] <Sven1987h> rtty.flush()
[11:27] <Sven1987h> msgi += 1
[11:29] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: maybe tomorrow we could try listening from south Italia? I will dump archive-based plots on 00z
[11:29] <mfa298> Sven1987h: that looks like something that will generate something like a telemetry string. I'm not a python programmer so I don't know if it's exactly right
[11:30] <mfa298> also it's usually worth using something like pastie or pastebin for bits of code.
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[11:31] <LeoBodnar> yeah, we can give it a go tomorrow
[11:31] <enkidu> I wish I had RX station in mountains
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[11:35] <LeoBodnar> We need remote receiver on Mt Everest
[11:35] <enkidu> :))
[11:35] <enkidu> easy to do
[11:36] <Laurenceb> we just need WSPR
[11:36] <enkidu> or satellite uplink
[11:36] <Laurenceb> yeah jcoxon got that running
[11:36] <Laurenceb> dunno how much it weighed
[11:37] <Laurenceb> http://natrium42.com/projects/spot/
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[11:38] <x-f> Rockblox would be easier than hacking a Spot, i think
[11:38] <x-f> not for picos though
[11:39] <Laurenceb> https://www.globalstar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=78
[11:39] <Laurenceb> or buy that
[11:39] <Laurenceb> arg
[11:39] <Laurenceb> https://www.globalstar.com/en/images/cid_106/data-coverage_map.jpg
[11:39] <Laurenceb> not worldwide
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[11:41] <Sven1987h> mfa298: Is the ssb mode better to send ssdv?
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> I like grassroot solutions. PLL of MCU is what I like most at the moment. Have you got it running Laurenceb yet?
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> How many transactions do you need to update all PLL registers?
[11:41] <Laurenceb> no, too busy
[11:41] <Laurenceb> its a days work to port WSPR to F4discovery
[11:41] <Laurenceb> i dunno
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[11:42] <Laurenceb> i was thinking just DMA to the N register
[11:42] <Laurenceb> so two transactions set using PWM
[11:42] <Laurenceb> rather than the huge array thing rpi was using
[11:42] <Laurenceb> that way theres about 1000 times fewer transactions
[11:42] <enkidu> LeoBodnar: mt everest tourist base have satellite receivers and some radios too
[11:43] <mfa298> Sven1987h: most people use rtty at 300 or 600 baud for ssdv but you could use and datamode that allows you to send an 8bit ascii character.
[11:43] <mfa298> for rtty we normally use a receiver that can recieve in SSB mode (normally USB rather than LSB)
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[11:48] <Sven1987h> ok I want buy this: BaoFeng UV-5R
[11:49] <mfa298> that almost certainly won't be suitable for rtty
[11:49] <DL7AD> ha good afternoon :D
[11:49] <adamgreig> the uv5r can only do fm
[11:50] <mfa298> most handheld amateur radios are fm only. There's one kenwood (TH-F7E) and I think one Yeasu handheld that can recieve other modes
[11:51] <Sven1987h> ok but the TH-F7E costs over 200¬
[11:51] <Sven1987h> *euro
[11:51] <Sven1987h> :)
[11:52] <DL7AD> for that price you could take an funcube ;)
[11:52] <DL7AD> would be my choise
[11:52] <mfa298> 200¬ is cheap compared to some of the radios people use.
[11:53] <Steve_at_Work> mfa298: programming languages aside, is it normally an easy task to split the sending of images down to chunks
[11:53] <mfa298> the newer funcube Pro+ is a very good choice for a reciever (or if you want really cheap look at the rtl sdr dongles but they're not as good)
[11:54] <mfa298> Steve_at_Work: should be simple in most languages
[11:54] <mfa298> as you're reading from a file the easiest method is likely to be reading in the number of bytes you need
[11:55] <Steve_at_Work> mfa298: cheers
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[11:58] <mfa298> Sven1987h: with a cheap handheld radio like that you could use APRS but using APRS sensibly requires an amateur radio license, can't be used airborne everywhere and you'll struggle to send ssdv with aprs.
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[12:01] <fsphil> and make many amateur radio folk more annoyed
[12:02] <Laurenceb> http://www.w0ch.net/qrss/qrss.htm
[12:02] <craag> sending ssdv over aprs from one side of the country would be v cool
[12:02] <mfa298> well if they're the ones that only use aprs to see what route they took to work in the morning that might not be a bad thing.
[12:02] <craag> but you wouldn't live long....
[12:03] <craag> *would probably be the coolest thing ever done with aprs
[12:05] <fsphil> hah
[12:06] <fsphil> sending very small images would work
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[12:08] <Steve_at_Work> craag: via the ISS
[12:09] <Steve_at_Work> i gave up on APRS i got my self a morning stalker lol
[12:09] <Laurenceb> http://www.genesisradio.com.au/yt1dl/wspr.shtml
[12:09] <craag> Steve_at_Work: meh, satellite comms are commonplace. The idea of using digipeaters to get the data across the country interests me more.
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[12:09] <Laurenceb> http://wspr.lz1ny.net/lz0dls_wsprmap.html
[12:10] <Laurenceb> nice
[12:10] <craag> fsphil: Send one to me, a nice big JPEG packet with WIDE7-7 :P
[12:10] <Steve_at_Work> craag: you would probably only recieve 5% of image
[12:10] <Steve_at_Work> craag: lol
[12:10] <Maxell> A guy attemtping to fly from the US to Europe on a lawnchair attached to a bunch of balloons. http://www.clusterballoon.com
[12:11] <eroomde> https://twitter.com/arkorobotics/status/377764014803001344
[12:11] <adamgreig> Maxell: he has an approved fligth doc on habitat
[12:11] <Sven1987h> LA3JJ - 2069 km??
[12:11] <eroomde> arko having fun
[12:11] <Maxell> lol
[12:11] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[12:11] <craag> haha eroomde !
[12:11] <adamgreig> haha nice
[12:11] <Sven1987h> 2069km with 10mW?
[12:12] <fsphil> craag: ooooh image via iss :)
[12:12] <Steve_at_Work> will CAA get back to me with a yay/na if i can launch
[12:12] <fsphil> you'll be lucky
[12:12] <craag> fsphil: aka how to get yourself hated by hams on one side of the earth almost simulataneously
[12:13] <Laurenceb> Sven1987h> 2069km with 10mW? <- yes
[12:13] <Steve_at_Work> so i just launch then
[12:13] <fsphil> craag: I see no flaws :D
[12:13] <fsphil> Steve_at_Work: watch this: http://www.notaminfo.com/nationalmap
[12:13] <fsphil> they'll email you a PDF sheet
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[12:13] <fsphil> possibly with conditions attached
[12:13] <fsphil> don't launch without hearing from them
[12:14] <fsphil> but you may not
[12:14] <fsphil> DM will frequently just not process them
[12:14] <fsphil> or leave them to the very last minute
[12:14] <fsphil> so keep asking :)
[12:14] <Steve_at_Work> lets hope ive given them the correct coordiantes
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[12:19] <fsphil> yea getting a grid coordinate is a pain
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[12:24] <Steve_at_Work> fsphil: chrisstubbs python code makes a lot of sense now, and so so simple
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[12:27] <Steve_at_Work> is rtty allways done at 50 baud
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[12:28] <fsphil> nope
[12:29] <fsphil> you've many choices
[12:29] <Steve_at_Work> ok, just everyone seems to mention 50
[12:29] <fsphil> and 50 baud with images would be very slow
[12:29] <fsphil> 50 is normal for text
[12:29] <Steve_at_Work> is UPU sending a balloon up on friday
[12:29] <fsphil> I doubt it
[12:29] <fsphil> brb
[12:29] <Steve_at_Work> looking at chriss's code it is using 600 for both images and rtty
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[12:30] <Steve_at_Work> there is one on the map
[12:33] <mfa298> I suspect that BUZZ balloon is some old data from somewhere
[12:33] <mfa298> that's near dave's launch site and he's not launching for a week or two (at least not from the UK)
[12:35] Nick change: Guest21447 -> danielsaul
[12:36] Nick change: danielsaul -> Guest44352
[12:36] <enkidu> someone will be happy today
[12:36] <enkidu> radiosonde with ozone meter
[12:36] <Steve_at_Work> what happens if i dont see mine on the map a couple of sdays before
[12:36] Nick change: Guest44352 -> danielsaul
[12:38] <mfa298> Balloons appear on the map when telemetry data is sent to habitat. The text box is updated manually based on what's been sent to the list
[12:38] <Steve_at_Work> mfa298: i was refereing to the notam map
[12:39] <mfa298> oh, notams, you need to chase the CAA about (based on what others have said)
[12:39] Action: mfa298 -> AFK
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[12:43] <gonzo__> appearing the morning of is common
[12:43] <gonzo__> or not at all, is more common
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[13:36] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[13:38] <Tramvai> I remember there was a tutorial for transmitting data somewhere. Anyone know one besides the http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2? I'd really like to see an example of how to combine the bits and pieces of information together before transmitting.
[13:38] <Tramvai> I couldn't figure out how to transmit a string.
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[13:41] <eroomde> there's enough information in there to see how to transmit a string Tramvai
[13:41] <eroomde> there's a whole function that takes a string and transmits it
[13:41] <Tramvai> Really?
[13:41] <eroomde> yes
[13:41] <Tramvai> sprintf(datastring,"RTTY TEST BEACON RTTY TEST BEACON"); // Puts the text in the datastring
[13:41] <Tramvai> Did you mean that?
[13:41] <eroomde> no
[13:41] <eroomde> i meant what i said
[13:41] <HixWork> sprintf(datastring,"$$HixHAB,%d,%02d:%02d:%02d,%s,%s,%ld,%d", count, hour, minute, second, latitudeBuffer, longitudeBuffer, gpsAltitude, numberOfSatellites) is another example.
[13:42] <eroomde> void rtty_txstring (char * string)
[13:42] <Tramvai> That tells me nothing, eroomde. :/
[13:42] <Tramvai> Yes, I did
[13:42] <HixWork> Ahhh sorry
[13:42] <eroomde> it shows you how you tx a string
[13:43] <eroomde> <Tramvai> I couldn't figure out how to transmit a string.
[13:43] <Tramvai> I only read about the NMEA protocols and UBX messages
[13:43] <eroomde> tx = transmit in the parlance
[13:43] <Tramvai> From the whole PDF, the rest didn't seem important at the time
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[13:44] <HixWork> ah no the K&R book - https://www.dropbox.com/s/wymely43m11w1r2/K%26R%20The_C_Programming_Language.pdf
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[13:45] <eroomde> yes, if you're unsure about constructing strings in their first place then your question is not really about high altitude ballooning
[13:45] <eroomde> it's about C and programming
[13:45] <HixWork> and this is also a hand ref https://www.dropbox.com/s/51kfgwtnggvbq27/C_Programming-WikiBook.pdf
[13:45] <eroomde> so Hix's link is just the thing
[13:45] Action: HixWork takes a bow ;p
[13:45] <Tramvai> I constructed a string with the information I want to send, but I don't know how to feed it to the transmitter
[13:46] <eroomde> phsyically or programatically?
[13:46] <mfa298> Tramvai: sending a string to the transmitter is what the rtty_txstring function (and the related functions) do.
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[13:47] <HixWork> if you have constructed a string that works then there is no difference from the wiki
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[13:49] <Tramvai> What should I replace sprintf(datastring,"RTTY TEST BEACON RTTY TEST BEACON"); with?
[13:49] <Tramvai> When I already have a proper string? :/
[13:51] <Tramvai> Oh, nevermind, I'm onto something here.
[13:51] <Tramvai> Thanks guys.
[13:55] <eroomde> you really should do that K&R book
[13:55] <eroomde> your questions are all basic C questions (which is fine and allowed of course), so you'd benefit a lot from it
[13:56] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[13:56] <eroomde> but i mean, really really basic C questions. so just a couple of hours spent not thinking about HAB but just accepting you should learn some C, will be very profitable and rewarding, I think
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[13:57] <mfa298> I feel this is the downside of arduino, it makes anyone think they can stick stuff together without learning how to think about the problem
[13:58] <eroomde> i'm said my piece in than vein hundreds of times on this channel
[13:58] <adamgreig> people have had that complaint since books meant you could understand a thing without thinking about it
[13:58] <eroomde> have they really?
[13:58] <eroomde> sounds improbable
[13:58] <Tramvai> I've never studied C, unfortunately. I'm fully a web designer and developer. Even though the syntax is somewhat similar to PHP, it's still not the same. Also, I'm finding it hard to comprehend the whole hardware-software communications part.
[13:58] <adamgreig> eroomde: which big name philosopher was like 'books are rubbish'
[13:59] <adamgreig> I forget
[13:59] <adamgreig> one of the greeks
[13:59] <enkidu> PHP. similar. to. C.
[13:59] <adamgreig> anyway another of them was like "youth today are terrible" which I found amusing
[13:59] <eroomde> though he was probably right
[13:59] <adamgreig> PHP is almost identical to C
[13:59] <eroomde> in as much as just reading doesn't help
[13:59] <Darkside> adamgreig: wasn't that on SMBC
[13:59] <eroomde> you've then go to go away and try and really understand what you just read
[13:59] <Darkside> Ernest Hemmingway
[13:59] <adamgreig> well xkcd had that thing recently about the quality of written communication getting worse like 200 years ago
[13:59] <enkidu> adamgreig: can you acces eax registers in PHP directly?
[13:59] <adamgreig> and smbc probably had something
[13:59] <eroomde> but i'm generally wary of vague appeals to 'it was ever thus'
[13:59] <Darkside> "F**k Literature"
[13:59] <adamgreig> Darkside: no I'm thinking of much earlier
[13:59] <adamgreig> enkidu: haha yea sure you can
[14:00] <adamgreig> the complete lack of security design means you can do pretty much whatever you want
[14:00] <adamgreig> just trying to store a string in an array probably executes it by accident
[14:00] <adamgreig> but I mean it's syntactically very similar, and you knew it, so stop being an arse about pedantics
[14:00] <adamgreig> think it was socrates
[14:01] <adamgreig> Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.
[14:01] <adamgreig> though it's probably dubious whether he really said it, the sentiment was clearly around 2000 years ago
[14:01] <Darkside> "Get off my lawn"
[14:01] <Darkside> - Grandad
[14:03] <adamgreig> it may well have been socrates who disliked books in fact eroomde
[14:03] <adamgreig> he certainly never wrote any
[14:03] <adamgreig> ah yes
[14:03] <adamgreig> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Phaedrus#On_the_decline_of_Greek_Literature.
[14:04] <adamgreig> for this discovery of yours [books] will create forgetfulness in the learners souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things
[14:04] <adamgreig> and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality.
[14:05] <adamgreig> and that's about enough greek philosophers for this channel
[14:05] <eroomde> what did socrates ever do anyway
[14:05] <PE2G> Good afternoon, BUZZ stopped transmitting in mid flight?
[14:05] <adamgreig> sit around thinking about shit, as far as I can tell. not like he recorded it for anyone else to know about
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[14:06] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[14:06] <Lunar_LanderU> short question after watching EEVBlog on SMD soldering
[14:06] <Lunar_LanderU> do I need one of those "spoon" type soldering tips for TQFP packages?
[14:06] <adamgreig> no
[14:07] <eroomde> you made the question almost double the length by announcing it
[14:07] <enkidu> no, you can easily solder it with regular tip, flat tip etc
[14:07] <Lunar_LanderU> ok
[14:08] <enkidu> "spoon" or "mini-wave" is for fast soldering
[14:08] <Darkside> i gnerally use a wide tip for drag-soldering
[14:09] <steve_____> I hate soldering!
[14:09] <HixWork> eroomde's comment there made me laugh noisily like the office freak
[14:09] <steve_____> I am no good at it at all
[14:10] <HixWork> I think the high power LEDs have burned marks in my retina. oops
[14:11] <mfa298> HixWork: you mean you're not the office freak :p
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[14:21] <Lunar_LanderU> XD
[14:21] <Laurenceb> http://nottgirl.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/shottingham/
[14:22] <Laurenceb> lolling
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[14:24] <HixWork> mfa298 not normally unless i have a bout of CAd tourettes
[14:25] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: Have been playing with power density analysis along eroomde talk
[14:25] <Laurenceb> whats power density analysis?
[14:25] Action: Laurenceb tl;dr
[14:25] <LeoBodnar> Recording: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/DomEX16.wav
[14:25] <Laurenceb> oh and adding noise?
[14:26] <LeoBodnar> Result: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/SyncDetection.png
[14:26] <Laurenceb> wow
[14:26] <Laurenceb> oh yeah i was playing with this technique
[14:26] <Laurenceb> correlating
[14:27] <LeoBodnar> Yes, if decoder has pre-existing knowledge of the format it can do x10 more than just trying to capture abstract ASCII chars
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[14:28] <HixWork> Laurenceb http://goo.gl/089nPt
[14:28] <Laurenceb> so werent some recordings from Cyprus emailed around?
[14:28] <Laurenceb> haha
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[14:28] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[14:29] <Laurenceb> enter B-11 ...
[14:29] <LeoBodnar> B-1 captures both B-11 and B-12
[14:29] <Laurenceb> doh
[14:29] <LeoBodnar> It's a bit of a proof of concept
[14:29] <Laurenceb> actually that might help
[14:29] <Laurenceb> just stick it throught he code
[14:35] <LeoBodnar> I don't think we have any undecoded recordings
[14:35] <Laurenceb> oh
[14:35] <Laurenceb> i thought someone on Cyprus got something
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[14:37] <LeoBodnar> THey have just heard it but not recorded
[14:37] <eroomde> LeoBodnar, that's cool
[14:38] <Laurenceb> grr
[14:38] <Laurenceb> http://hackaday.com/2009/05/07/wspring-across-the-atlantic/
[14:40] <Laurenceb> 20mw and some horrifying soldering work
[14:42] <LeoBodnar> need some work eroomde but I think decoder should know what it's looking for rather than just hunting for unrelated chars
[14:42] <eroomde> that's lovely soldering work Laurenceb
[14:42] <eroomde> proper breadboarding
[14:42] <eroomde> onto copper clad
[14:42] <Laurenceb> in a sense i guess...
[14:42] <eroomde> jim williams would be proud
[14:43] <Laurenceb> we need to stick this on a pico
[14:43] <Laurenceb> looks pretty easy to achieve
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[14:44] <Darkside> Laurenceb: theres easier ways to do WSPR
[14:44] <Darkside> DDSes, for one
[14:44] <Laurenceb> sure
[14:44] <Darkside> and you'll get the same output power
[14:44] <Laurenceb> i was talking about stm32f4 earlier
[14:44] <Darkside> why?
[14:44] <Laurenceb> looks like you can get 10mw out of it with a matching and filtering network
[14:44] <Laurenceb> as its simple and cheap
[14:44] <Darkside> at what frequency
[14:45] <Laurenceb> ~20m band
[14:45] <Darkside> hrm
[14:45] <Darkside> ok
[14:45] <Darkside> not that it helps you guys much
[14:45] <Darkside> as long as you can gt the required frequency resolution for WSPR, it'd be fine
[14:45] <Laurenceb> same technique as the rpi wspr, only it can be done better on stm32f4
[14:45] <Darkside> aha
[14:45] <Darkside> ok
[14:45] <Laurenceb> it worked with the really poor rpi hardware
[14:45] <Lunar_LanderU> eroomde: liked your comment on the hackaday post on the Yale balloon
[14:45] <Laurenceb> im suprised
[14:46] <Darkside> Laurenceb: they did frequency PWMing or something
[14:46] <Laurenceb> but itd be much better on F4
[14:46] <Darkside> i'd still use a DDS, for a much cleaner signal
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[14:46] <Darkside> also means you don't waste your power in all the harmonics
[14:46] <Laurenceb> no - DMA hacking of the spare PLL, to make it sigma delta
[14:46] <eroomde> Lunar_LanderU, i liked your baby photos
[14:46] <Lunar_LanderU> ?
[14:46] <Laurenceb> eroomde: ?!
[14:47] <eroomde> stalking my past
[14:47] <Lunar_LanderU> I just noticed it as the Yale balloon was a featured link on hackaday
[14:47] <Lunar_LanderU> and then I saw that you commented
[14:47] <Darkside> hah reading his comment now
[14:47] <Laurenceb> Darkside: https://github.com/threeme3/WsprryPi/blob/master/wspr.c
[14:47] <Darkside> Laurenceb: yeah i've seen it
[14:47] <Lunar_LanderU> eroomde: I know. I failed.
[14:48] <Darkside> i'm not a big fan of WSPR, so haven't run it yet
[14:48] <Laurenceb> should be possible to run that on stm32
[14:49] <Darkside> mm
[14:49] <Darkside> still better ways of doing it >_>
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[14:49] <Lunar_LanderU> I have no idea what I should do now
[14:49] <Darkside> less filtering needed with a DDS too
[14:50] <Lunar_LanderU> was it bad that I read ed's comment on hackaday?
[14:50] <Darkside> you just have to filter out (master clock - output frequncy)
[14:51] <LeoBodnar> WSPR can use subsquare resolution
[14:51] <iain_G4SGX> LeoBodnar: Tnx for the info on the Si4032 chip, got a couple of HopeRf RFM43B boards coming my way to experiment with before I commit to a pcb. Was quite hard to find in Europe, the 433Mhz version anyway.
[14:51] <LeoBodnar> 500m accuracy
[14:51] <Lunar_LanderU> eroomde: sorry for my failure
[14:51] <eroomde> Lunar_LanderU, you'll get over it
[14:51] <eroomde> so will I
[14:51] <Lunar_LanderU> ok
[14:51] <Darkside> Laurenceb: how do you get that?
[14:51] <Darkside> what bits do you lose
[14:51] <Lunar_LanderU> eroomde: do you want to hear something positive?
[14:52] <eroomde> yup
[14:52] <Lunar_LanderU> I was able to see the last part of the conference livestream and liked your talk on how a GPS RX works software wise
[14:52] <Laurenceb> Darkside: huh?
[14:52] <Darkside> argh
[14:52] <Darkside> i meant LeoBodnar
[14:52] <LeoBodnar> Please to hear iain_G4SGX
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[14:53] <Darkside> i.e. how do you get 6 characters of gridsquare
[14:53] <Laurenceb> dual packet format
[14:53] <Darkside> interesting
[14:53] <Darkside> what do you lose?
[14:53] <LeoBodnar> Wiki says you send two messages , on with callsign and power, second with callsign hash and extended locator AA11aa
[14:53] <Laurenceb> you could hack in altitude as the second power
[14:53] <Darkside> err
[14:53] <Laurenceb> and maybe some extra battery info as suffix
[14:54] <Darkside> there arent many bits for power :P
[14:54] <Laurenceb> sure
[14:54] <Darkside> theres like 10 power level or something
[14:54] <Laurenceb> 100
[14:54] <Darkside> ahh ok
[14:54] <Darkside> not as bad
[14:54] <Laurenceb> or maybe its 128 or something
[14:54] <Darkside> still extremely coarse
[14:54] <LeoBodnar> Do you think WSPR people will get a bit pissed off if it is used as comms channel
[14:54] <Darkside> yes :P
[14:54] <Laurenceb> hehe
[14:54] <Darkside> espexially if its on the WSPR band
[14:54] <iain_G4SGX> WSPR is written in fortran mostly.. yuk
[14:54] <Darkside> anyway, you guys arent allowed to transmit there :P
[14:55] <Tramvai> What would cause the NTX2 to transmit only one line instead of two?
[14:55] <eroomde> Lunar_LanderU, thank you
[14:55] <Lunar_LanderU> you're welcome
[14:55] <Darkside> Tramvai: your source code being wrong
[14:55] <Darkside> its not the NTX2's fault
[14:55] <Laurenceb> outside the UK it could be used?
[14:55] <Darkside> yeah
[14:55] <Darkside> or, hey
[14:55] <Lunar_LanderU> did the code you wrote in the lecture also work on actual hardware or was it just a demo?
[14:55] <Darkside> i could test fly it in australia >_>
[14:55] <Tramvai> Never said it is.
[14:56] <Darkside> send me your crazy amateur radio payloads!
[14:56] <Darkside> i will fly them
[14:56] <Lunar_LanderU> *replace "work" with "run on"
[14:56] <LeoBodnar> Geofencing Darkside
[14:56] <Lunar_LanderU> Darkside: yay, make a Mailbag video xD
[14:56] <eroomde> it was just python Lunar_LanderU
[14:56] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: yeah
[14:56] <Lunar_LanderU> ah
[14:56] <Darkside> also you guys need to be extremely careful with HF antennas
[14:56] <Darkside> far more careful than we had to be
[14:56] <LeoBodnar> Static?
[14:56] <Darkside> no
[14:56] <eroomde> and it was assuming a dataset already existed
[14:56] <Darkside> power lines
[14:56] <eroomde> so just demo
[14:57] <eroomde> i don't think numpy runs on DSPs yet ;)
[14:57] <Lunar_LanderU> ah ok
[14:57] <LeoBodnar> I am using AWG38 wire
[14:57] <Darkside> 10m of wire draped over a 11kv lin is not a good thing
[14:57] <Darkside> yes
[14:57] <Darkside> that will trip breakers
[14:57] <Darkside> and they will not reclose
[14:57] <Darkside> well, they will reclose, then they will trip again through the path of ionosed air left by your vaporised antenna
[14:57] <Darkside> ionised air*
[14:58] <Darkside> i had a long chat with a power network engineer about this problem
[14:58] <LeoBodnar> What did he say?
[14:58] <Darkside> i mean i was chatting about how different wire thicknesses would vaporise
[14:58] <Darkside> and reclose tims, etc
[14:59] <Darkside> so when the circuit detects a short, it trips, then recloses a few ms later
[14:59] <Darkside> if the short still exists, it trips again, and waits for human intervention
[15:00] <Darkside> so the question was: what antenna wire could we use that would vaporise, and have the ionisation trail dissipate before the reclose
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[15:00] <LeoBodnar> There is nothing thinner than AWG38 that is practical
[15:00] <Darkside> exactly
[15:00] <Darkside> thats the problem
[15:00] <Darkside> basically we figured out that it wouldn't be practical, and the only solution was to not land on power lines
[15:01] <Darkside> not to hard for us - we only have a few big ones to worry about
[15:01] <Darkside> but in europe...
[15:01] <Darkside> way bigger problem
[15:01] <Darkside> especially with the way those foil balloons kind of float around near ground level
[15:01] <Darkside> imagin the havok a floating foil balloon could cause, dragging a wire
[15:02] <Lunar_LanderU> did you know that was used in WWII?
[15:02] <Darkside> i'm not surprised
[15:02] <Lunar_LanderU> british balloons with wires launched against germany
[15:03] <DL1SGP> retract the antenna wire or disconnect it at a certain altitude and then use the UHF component for near field locating of the payload .. if altitude above ground is less than like 50m
[15:03] <Darkside> disconnecting it is just as bad DL1SGP
[15:03] <craag> retraction would be best, but not easy! gonna be impossible on a foil.
[15:03] <Darkside> also you can't just trail a wire
[15:03] <Darkside> that doesn't make a good antenna
[15:04] <Darkside> i mean, what are you going to use as a counterpoise?
[15:04] <Laurenceb> yeah you need half wave dipole
[15:04] <Darkside> yup
[15:04] <craag> yeah, you've also got one above the payload
[15:04] <Darkside> i've flown a 40m vertical dopole
[15:04] <Darkside> craag: and you're going to retract that one too?
[15:04] <craag> Darkside: mmm :/ that's not gonna work!
[15:04] <Darkside> yep
[15:05] <Darkside> anyway, i flew a 40m vertical dipole with insulated wire.. didn't get aywhere near powerlines thankfully
[15:05] <Darkside> but the next launch we landed across a powerline
[15:05] <Darkside> which is why i've been a bit reluctant to do any HF launches since then
[15:05] <Laurenceb> ah
[15:05] <craag> and the probability of something as mechanical as a retraction working anyway on a frozen, buffeted hab..
[15:06] <Darkside> 6m would be a bit more doable i think
[15:06] <tweetBot> @daveake: High Altitude Ballooning covered at the start and end of this nice video from @DWShift http://t.co/eYgBCb0hUz #UKHAS #RaspberryPi
[15:06] <Darkside> only 3m long, and you could even make a loaded dipole to make it even shorter
[15:06] <Darkside> and 6m has all sorts of fun propagation effects
[15:06] <Laurenceb> whats the shortest for ionospheric reflection?
[15:06] <craag> 6m is cool
[15:07] <Darkside> Laurenceb: your problem is the antenna - a verical dipole will be beaming at the horizon
[15:07] <craag> Best band at vhf nfd this year imo
[15:07] <Darkside> so you're looking at thousands of km away
[15:07] <Laurenceb> isnt that good?
[15:07] <Darkside> depends on who the HF transmitter is targeted at
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[15:07] <Laurenceb> as far away as possible with single skip
[15:07] <Darkside> also remember that your chosen frequency won't work well at all times of the day
[15:07] <Laurenceb> this is for very long range on picohab
[15:07] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:07] <Darkside> that being said, i'd be inclined to just use 20m
[15:08] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:08] <Darkside> another option is to fly 30m APRS
[15:08] <Laurenceb> thats what i was origionally thinking of
[15:08] <Darkside> but you'll need a lot more power
[15:08] <Laurenceb> wspr on 20m
[15:08] <Laurenceb> aprs is too much power
[15:08] <Darkside> Class-E amp
[15:08] <Darkside> 95% efficient
[15:08] <Laurenceb> so
[15:08] <Darkside> even still
[15:08] <Laurenceb> still too much power
[15:08] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:08] <Darkside> you'd want 2W or so
[15:08] <Laurenceb> exactly
[15:08] <Darkside> so yeah, not suitable for a floater
[15:09] <Laurenceb> i wonder if anyone has solved the power line issue
[15:09] <Darkside> you're flying a gigantic short circuit
[15:09] <Laurenceb> using some clever technique
[15:09] <Darkside> how the hell can it be solved
[15:10] <Darkside> apart from very good insulation
[15:10] <Laurenceb> low plasma breakdown... stuff
[15:10] <Darkside> but it has to have low resistance to be an effective HF antenna
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> Stuf with a very low fusing current that did not generate an arc
[15:12] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
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[15:12] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: yeah
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> i would suggest carbon fibre, but i recall that was used for exactly this reason in iraq
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> - but I don't know how long and thick the lengths were
[15:13] <Darkside> if you land across a 275kv lin, you're going to get an arc
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[15:13] <SpeedEvil> nutters on youtube seem to indicate that it's transient - for very small wires.
[15:13] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> clearly reeling hte antenna in if close to the ground would work.
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> But...
[15:14] <Darkside> anyway, we're kind of paranoid about not starting bushfires
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> There are sorts of wires that are ideal for this
[15:15] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: linky
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrotechnic_initiator#Nickel-aluminium
[15:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://www.somersetsolders.com/product.php/388/0/almit_0_20mm_ultra_fine_lead_free_solder_wire
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> - this would be with .2mm wire or so - that is 'cut down' pyrotechnically when close to the ground.
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> It would basically evaporate
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> and fall as a rain of alloy
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> Or oxides.
[15:17] <Darkside> probably goign to be a horribly inefficient antenna though
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> aluminium is not bad
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> it's not an alloy
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> it's two pure metals
[15:19] Action: SpeedEvil looks at the aluminium wire, and the drawplate on his shelf.
[15:19] <Laurenceb> how would this help?
[15:19] <enkidu> actually alu wires are alloys
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: basically to be able to cut away the antenna instantly
[15:19] <Laurenceb> doesnt it just give a hotter arc?
[15:19] <Darkside> SpeedEvil: cutting it away doesnt help
[15:20] <Darkside> it just means more bits of wire flying around
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> Darkside: Sure it does
[15:20] Nick change: signaleleven -> s11_gym
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> Darkside: the 'bits' are ~.1mm globules of mostly oxidised metal. If cut away over 1m away from the ht wire - they will fall as a rain of cold particles
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[15:21] <Laurenceb> im not convinced its not going to increase the amount of plasma
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[15:22] <SpeedEvil> Oh - it totally will if it actually bridges a HT wire and something at a different potential
[15:23] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> What is the seperation of ht lines ? Anyone know ?
[15:23] Nick change: Guest39146 -> danielsaul
[15:23] <Laurenceb> 70cm or so for 11Kv
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> couple of meters wire-wire?
[15:24] <Darkside> for 275kv the danger distance is like 3m
[15:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> Then that is your max length!
[15:24] <Darkside> and the wires are usually 5m or so apart
[15:24] <Darkside> maybe more
[15:25] Action: SpeedEvil idly wonders about an antenna in a tube of SF6
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[15:25] <Tramvai> Why does running on battery not USB ruin my transmitter signal?
[15:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> or use a loaded aerial, maybe helically wound ?
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[15:25] <Laurenceb> probably inefficient?
[15:26] <Tramvai> I use a 9V battery setup (6x AAA)
[15:26] <Laurenceb> worth investigating i guess
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[15:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> Lots of mobile aerials use a loaded helically wound lower stage
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[15:27] <Darkside> Geoff-G8DHE: they also have a car as a coutnerpoise
[15:27] <Darkside> bit harder to do that on a balloon
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Darkside: We're gonna need a bigger balloon.
[15:27] <Darkside> :P
[15:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> agreed I pointed this out at the conference the other day, you have no way of making a counterpoise so it has to be dipole
[15:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> or a blanaced aerial, but it can still be loaded
[15:28] <craag> You can of course do an off-centre feed if it makes it easier.
[15:28] <Darkside> you also need matching
[15:29] <Darkside> which i guess you could do with fixed components for a spot frquency
[15:29] <craag> mm, little ferrite core with a few turns would be fine.
[15:29] <Darkside> mm
[15:29] <Darkside> yeah
[15:29] <Darkside> could do a simple 1:1 balun on a tiny core
[15:29] <Darkside> i did that on a FT140 for my 40m launch
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[15:35] <Laurenceb> theres got to be a way to get breakdown with minimal plasma
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> Ni/Al fine wire antenna in a tube of SF6
[15:36] <Laurenceb> lol
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[15:38] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuse_%28electrical%29#High_voltage_fuses
[15:38] <Laurenceb> "High voltage expulsion fuses surround the fusible link with gas-evolving substances, such as boric acid. When the fuse blows, heat from the arc causes the boric acid to evolve large volumes of gases"
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Boring.
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Electrically triggered explosives all the way down the antenna
[15:39] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:39] <Laurenceb> i think the idea is low energy gas cloud
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[15:44] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[15:45] <eroomde> benoxley, soon (tm)
[15:45] <eroomde> talking to me via twitter is guaranteed to not get a response as i don't really know how to use it
[15:45] <eroomde> and so don't really use it
[15:45] <eroomde> but soon
[15:47] <eroomde> i need to make me one of those webbity sites
[15:47] <Laurenceb> boric acid coated wire.. ?
[15:48] <HixWork> http://goo.gl/wt8Mh7
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[15:53] <HixWork> not entirely sure how i managed to make the jump from datasheets to sloth memes....
[15:54] <Laurenceb> http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0523/ML052360563.pdf
[15:54] <Laurenceb> oops
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[16:05] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: i was also wondering about fusible wire that melted at 0C
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> Clearly - reel out at altitude
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[16:08] <G4MYS> Good afternoon Is there an operating frequency for BUZZ? or any info on it?
[16:09] <Geoff-G8DHE> Someone played back on old record
[16:09] <G4MYS> Geoff many thanks I wondered who was operating my kit this afternoon!!!
[16:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> Took me a second as well!
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[16:10] <ibanezmatt13> evening
[16:10] <G4MYS> umm any further news on B11 & 12?
[16:12] <daveake_> G4MYS If BUZZ is in the air then someone stole him :p
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[16:13] <G4MYS> Daveake I was wondering if it were a computer fault!! glad to hear buzz is under control!
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[16:14] <daveake_> Well he's at home and I'm in Saudi, so not sure he's under control either :)
[16:17] <enkidu> G4MYS: they are still over north Africa
[16:17] <number10> julies about to do a launch without you daveake_
[16:18] <enkidu> will keep an eye on models and warn listeners when again over Europe
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[16:18] <eroomde> 'hello darling. i had a clear-out while you were away'
[16:18] <G4MYS> enkidu.... many thanks so start listening again then?
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[16:20] <daveake_> Julie's getting good at it ... on that Buzz/Zurg flight she waited in the chase car whilst we walked off to retrieve the payloads. I called her after we found the flight, and she said "Oh yeah I knew you'd found the
[16:20] <daveake_> flight as the sound changed then I saw it move on the map"
[16:20] <enkidu> G4MYS: not today. seems, that 11 will be over Europe in days.
[16:21] <daveake_> Good job I took the H2 cylinders back then :p
[16:22] <daveake_> if B11/12 come back over Spain I might be able to pick them up
[16:22] <G4MYS> enkidu....oh good! congrats are in order here me thinks bit busy at work but were monitoring the suituation and building a 70cm preamp with aerial to go 50 ft up soon !
[16:24] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
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[16:27] <enkidu> gj G4MYS, I am about to build pico habamp in F attenuator pipe
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[16:29] <G4MYS> enkidu yes preamp inportant, ensure its good good bandpass to keep out TETRA problems I understand the HABAMP has a good reputation so fit it check it and enjoy it!
[16:30] <enkidu> I will use same filter that is used in habamp, also, I will add RL network before IC so fm will not mess
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[16:34] <G4MYS> Well our interference is at 433.910 the car fobs and nearby TETRA masts at about 429Mhz and of course the occasional ham on 434 & 433Mhz if poss put preamp within 1M of the antenna !
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[16:36] <enkidu> I have several security beacons here, but even without special preamps I could receve radiosonde signals
[16:36] Nick change: nick_ -> Guest23179
[16:36] Nick change: Guest23179 -> nick_
[16:38] <G4MYS> yes you will receive signals we at work us a 145MHz dipole at 5M in the middle of an industrial estate, my mate hears stuff on a whip on his scanner... but the higher the aerial and preamp without casuing receiver problems the better -- you can overload the receiver! with its own set of problems!!
[16:38] <enkidu> I am using SDR
[16:39] <enkidu> antenna got highpass filter, then lowpass to eradicate GSM and highpass again
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[16:58] <Willdude123> I know it's off topic but how do I calculate the uncertainty in g when doing g= 2H/ t^2 ?
[16:59] <Willdude123> How many countries have/had b-11 and 12 been through?
[17:00] <Chetic> what can I use to control rtl_tcp in linux? (that isn't sdr#)
[17:01] <enkidu> gqrx
[17:01] <enkidu> but you may suffer from sigterms
[17:02] <Chetic> I seem to get that with all the sdr software
[17:02] <Chetic> and I seem to be getting this thick vein in my forehead
[17:02] <adamgreig> Willdude123: depends on the uncertainty in your H and t measurements
[17:02] <adamgreig> uncertainty adds
[17:02] <adamgreig> well
[17:02] <adamgreig> actually idk what it does in t², probably squares
[17:02] <enkidu> Chetic: so it may be bug in rtl_tcp
[17:02] <adamgreig> what a mess
[17:02] <adamgreig> check your textbook to see how it wants you to deal with it
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[17:03] <mfa298> Chetic: you need a good network link for rtl_tcp (I'd only use a wired connection with it)
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[17:05] <enkidu> mfa298: I was using it over 1G and it still was dying, so I just use it only on localhost
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[17:07] <Rebounder> enkidu: bufferproblem? rtl_tcp has kept on dying all the time for me also
[17:08] <enkidu> maybe. still, it is not reliable. Maybe usb over network is solution
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[17:13] <iain_G4SGX> Interesting article in RADCOM about Tropo propogation and atmospheric temperature inversions and weather. (By a local Ham Jim Bacon of weather man fame). Was thinking it could explain some of B11's initial yo-yo'ing in altitude.
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[17:13] <enkidu> inversions are not so rare
[17:13] <iain_G4SGX> Very common in fact
[17:14] <enkidu> especialy subsidence inversions
[17:14] <cuddykid> evening all - flight tomorrow should hopefully be going ahead around midday
[17:14] <iain_G4SGX> Its in combination with certain other weather that forms tropo, very interesting article
[17:14] <cuddykid> quite a heavy payload - yet to weigh but will be in region of 1.5-2kg probably. 1000g balloon. h2
[17:15] <DL1SGP> good luck cuddykid
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[17:15] <cuddykid> thanks DL1SGP
[17:15] <cuddykid> should be landing near Oxford
[17:15] <KevWal> What gadgets u launching cuddykid?
[17:16] <cuddykid> KevWal: photographic payload
[17:16] <KevWal> 1.5kg sounds like an expensive camera :)
[17:17] <cuddykid> there's some other goodies too
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[17:19] <Willdude123_> adamgreig, wait so why is the method different for different uncertanties?
[17:19] <adamgreig> the method isn't
[17:19] <adamgreig> I just mean the numbers will depend on both your accuracy in measuring the height and the time
[17:19] <adamgreig> which will probably be different accuracies
[17:20] <Willdude123_> I hate physics
[17:20] <adamgreig> I find the best way to be consistent is to convert the uncertainties to actual numbers
[17:20] <adamgreig> so you might measure 54 +- 1mm
[17:20] <adamgreig> and a time of 12.6 +- 0.1s
[17:20] <adamgreig> and then the uncertainties work exactly like the base numbers
[17:20] <adamgreig> and you can convert back to a percentage later
[17:21] <adamgreig> but yes
[17:21] <adamgreig> that was always a bit faffy
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[17:35] <enkidu> for uncertanities you should make fishbone diagram
[17:36] <enkidu> then overall uncertainity is just summing up squares of (u(v) / v) and take root square of it. this, multiplied by final value is final uncertainity (k=1)
[17:36] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[17:38] <cuddykid> payload weighs in at 2.2kg (incl chute) for tomorrow
[17:38] <cuddykid> definitely a heavy one!
[17:39] <DL1SGP> where do you expect it to fly to cuddykid ?
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[17:41] <DL1SGP> welcome back LeoBodnar
[17:41] <LeoBodnar> Hello
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[17:42] <cuddykid> DL1SGP: towards oxford
[17:43] <cuddykid> launching from near worcs
[17:43] <DL1SGP> ah, well it won't get into my audible range anyhow, still will take a look at the tracker to see how your experiment goes :)
[17:44] <cuddykid> :)
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[17:45] <DL1SGP> hallo dl7ad
[17:46] <dl7ad> DL1SGP good evening :)
[17:46] <dl7ad> Its my mobile
[17:46] <dl7ad> Where im currently typing
[17:46] <DL1SGP> yeah I was assuming so :D
[17:46] <dl7ad> ^^
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[17:52] SP3OSJ (563f462a@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[17:53] <SP3OSJ> I'm ready to start: http://postimg.org/image/9g62jfm0h/
[17:53] <PE2G> Hello all, was today's B-12 position update received by mail?
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[17:55] <DL1SGP> it was old data that accidentally got played in through leaving the software online when testing a sound-recording PE2G
[17:55] <enkidu> PE2G: anyone got it??
[17:56] <PE2G> Confused by the time stamp
[17:57] <enkidu> SP3OSJ: what is this battery?
[17:57] <DL1SGP> heh it got me confused too
[17:57] <DL1SGP> enkidu: there is no battery as it looks like :)
[17:58] <enkidu> so inside this red wrap is payload
[17:58] <PE2G> And the callsign prefix is from here: http://goo.gl/maps/RmTRA
[17:58] <DL1SGP> yes PE2G, but unfortunately it was an accident :(
[17:59] <craag> SP3OSJ: Going for foil float?
[18:00] <enkidu> I hope that B11 will turn over Algeria
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[18:01] <SP3OSJ> craag: Yes, Qalatex Foil balloon 36 "
[18:01] <craag> SP3OSJ: Great, good luck!
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[18:02] <SP3OSJ> Enkidu: It is a battery of zeros sun
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[18:03] <DL1SGP> SP3OSJ: the box is so nicely pink, you should put a tiny hello kitty sticker on there :D
[18:03] <enkidu> hello kitty is for girls
[18:03] <SP3OSJ> craag Thanks, I chase Leo :)
[18:03] <enkidu> hello chtulhu
[18:06] <SP3OSJ> DL1SGP: I am starting on Friday 13_09-2012 19:00 (AAA battery and solar). Balloon directed at Germany
[18:06] Geoff-G8DHE-M (~Geoff-G8D@geoffg8dhe.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:07] M6PFX-mobile (~anonymous@dab-far1-h-1-7.dab.02.net) joined #highaltitude.
[18:08] <SP3OSJ> DL1SGP 13-109-2013 17:00 GMT
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[18:08] <PH3V> SP3OSJ DominoEx16?
[18:08] <M6PFX-mobile> good evening all
[18:08] <PE2G> SP3OSJ: What altitude are you aiming at?
[18:09] <SP3OSJ> No, only: RTTY 50/470/7n2 f=437.700Mhz
[18:10] <PH3V> SP3OSJ: The board .. own design?
[18:10] <x-f> good evening, M6PFX
[18:11] <DL1SGP> SP3OSJ, I will listen for it
[18:11] <x-f> SP3OSJ, so that solar-only won't fly on Friday?
[18:11] <M6PFX-mobile> london is horrid tonight
[18:11] <SP3OSJ> PH3V Yes 4,45cm x 2,45cm (2g)
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[18:13] <PH3V> SP3OSJ: Nice! I will listen for it as well
[18:13] <SP3OSJ> xf: No, on Friday to fly tracker: AAA battery + solar (23g)
[18:16] <DL1SGP> I'll try my best to hear it :)
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[18:17] <Laurenceb_> sup
[18:17] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar, Darkside: i was thinking about AWG38 wire and power lines
[18:18] <Laurenceb_> its going to vaporise it in ~100µS tops
[18:18] <Laurenceb_> i think theres just going to be a pop and a flash
[18:18] <Laurenceb_> and not much else if it hits a line
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[18:20] <LeoBodnar> It's as thin as a cobweb
[18:21] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[18:21] <Laurenceb_> i cant see it causing a big issue
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[18:21] <Laurenceb_> takes less energy to vapourize it than there is in the line capacitance
[18:23] <enkidu> Laurenceb_: still there would be needed transil at antenna pad
[18:23] <LeoBodnar> Static kills
[18:24] <LeoBodnar> I have a drain esistor
[18:24] <Laurenceb_> transil?
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[18:24] <enkidu> transient suppresing diode
[18:24] <enkidu> similar to z-diode but can take nice surge
[18:24] <Laurenceb_> ah
[18:25] <Laurenceb_> i wouldnt expect the tronics to survive
[18:25] <Laurenceb_> just the power line to survive
[18:25] <Laurenceb_> thats the aim
[18:31] <Laurenceb_> i think this is doable - using WSPR
[18:33] <LeoBodnar> Need licence asap
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[18:40] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:41] <DL1SGP> good evening jcoxon
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[18:43] <jcoxon> so is that new data on the tracker for B-12?
[18:45] <jcoxon> oh found it
[18:45] <DL1SGP> no
[18:45] <jcoxon> found hte reference in the logs
[18:45] <jcoxon> someone replayed recorded data
[18:45] <jcoxon> i think its time to clear the tracker
[18:45] <DL1SGP> :)
[18:45] <enkidu> jcoxon: not really
[18:46] <enkidu> B-11 will appear in two days over France or Spain
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[18:47] <enkidu> B12 will be audible, but in week. maybe
[18:47] <jcoxon> well we can replay the track then
[18:47] <jcoxon> there are other users
[18:48] <enkidu> buzz for sure is fake one, SP3OSJ probably already on seabed
[18:48] <adamgreig> but it loads so fast now ;)
[18:48] <jcoxon> including a trans-atlantic flight by J Trappe on 14.0956Mhz
[18:48] <jcoxon> RTTY 110baud
[18:49] <enkidu> 14mhz. need to modify my old AM tuner to be SDR frontend
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[18:50] <Laurenceb_> jcoxon: there is a transatlantic attempt atm?
[18:50] <jcoxon> its manned
[18:50] ibanezmatt13 (5680911e@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[18:51] <jcoxon> http://www.clusterballoon.com/
[18:51] <Laurenceb_> wtf
[18:51] <Laurenceb_> madness
[18:51] <enkidu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/12999_trj001.gif track using archive data.
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> and then?
[18:52] <jcoxon> wb8elk emailed me saying he had sent them a rtty beacon
[18:52] <jcoxon> "Callsign NG0X... 110 baud ASCII RTTY on 14.0956 MHz just above the WSPR area."
[18:52] <adamgreig> http://www.clusterballoon.com/assets/media/LaIndependencia_SkiesOfMexico.jpg
[18:52] <adamgreig> so crazy
[18:56] <ibanezmatt13> o-k
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[19:01] <craag> A q on the NOTAM application, what does 'status' in 'Name and status' at the bottom mean?
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[19:02] <Laurenceb_> copy from your facebook
[19:02] <craag> haha
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[19:04] <Willdude123> Can anyone help me with uncertanties>
[19:04] <Willdude123> I really don't get them.
[19:05] <chrisstubbs> G0TDJ_Steve ping
[19:05] <Willdude123> How do I calculate the uncertainty in g when doing g= 2H/ t^2 ?
[19:06] <ibanezmatt13> ah, Heisenberg's Uncertainty theory
[19:06] <ibanezmatt13> that the one?
[19:06] <adamgreig> no
[19:06] <adamgreig> measurement error
[19:06] Action: ibanezmatt13 hides in shame
[19:06] <enkidu> Willdude123: uncertanity u(g) = g* sqrt((u(H)/H)^2 + 2 (u(t)/t)^2)*2
[19:06] <Willdude123> That means nothing to me
[19:07] <Willdude123> This is sausage to me
[19:07] <ibanezmatt13> What are you doing Will?
[19:09] <ibanezmatt13> ok then... time for some music theory -_-
[19:09] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hey chrisstubbs
[19:10] <chrisstubbs> Okay PM time
[19:10] <Willdude123> http://imgur.com/kGR4iHK
[19:10] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, sorry couldn't reply in time
[19:10] <ibanezmatt13> haha, sure
[19:10] <chrisstubbs> Jeeeez chdk finished building for every camera supported! Only a few thousand warnings in the log file
[19:10] <Willdude123> 1: G=9.837
[19:10] <Willdude123> 2: G=9.881
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[19:11] <Willdude123> I think that's correct
[19:11] <ibanezmatt13> what actually is that Willdude123? Like is it some sort of taster to A level or something?
[19:11] <Willdude123> But I need the uncertainties.
[19:11] <Willdude123> edX
[19:11] <Willdude123> Hi daveake
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[19:11] <Willdude123> Couldn't help could you ibanezmatt13
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[19:11] <ibanezmatt13> have fun :)
[19:12] <enkidu> what a moron made this test?? uncertanity is always written with two meaning digits
[19:14] <Willdude123> Prof. Walter Lewing
[19:14] <Willdude123> *Lewin
[19:14] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[19:14] <adamgreig> lol
[19:14] <adamgreig> yea I think the test is fine
[19:14] <Willdude123> Oh. Nobody's helping me :(
[19:14] <adamgreig> but it's an annoying thing that I can't remember how to do
[19:14] <adamgreig> and the content should have already taught you
[19:14] <adamgreig> put simply you have to add up the uncertainties
[19:15] <adamgreig> i.e. because your measurement of the height is only so accurate, and your measurement of the time is only so accurate
[19:15] <enkidu> adamgreig: last time I checked uncertanities for metering were written with two meaning digits, not with two digits after decimal point
[19:15] <adamgreig> then obviously your calculation of g will only be so accurate
[19:15] <ibanezmatt13> may I? https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CjCG5piyeaw#t=190
[19:15] <adamgreig> enkidu: uncertainties are written with precisely as many significant figures as is required by the uncertainty...
[19:15] <Willdude123> So do I need to calculate the maximum possible value?
[19:15] <adamgreig> if I know I measured a value to within 0.0324m, then that's what I report
[19:16] <adamgreig> not 0.032
[19:16] <Willdude123> And then the minimum possible value
[19:16] <adamgreig> Willdude123: that should work. well you should only need to do one side
[19:16] <Willdude123> And subtract one from the other to find the uncertainty?
[19:16] <adamgreig> since all those uncertainties are symmetric
[19:16] <adamgreig> i.e. find the 'correct' value, find one uncertain value
[19:16] <adamgreig> either min or max
[19:16] <adamgreig> and find its distance from the correct
[19:16] <adamgreig> but there is a way to do it properly just using the uncertainties
[19:16] <adamgreig> just I can't remember what it is
[19:16] <adamgreig> so meh
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[19:17] <enkidu> adamgreig: in analytical chemistry I am using always two meaning digits of uncertainity
[19:17] <enkidu> nvm anyways
[19:17] <adamgreig> enkidu: well this isn't analytical chemistry
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[19:17] <nats`> yay received mouser order \o/
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[19:17] <nats`> I can mount my computer driven motor control
[19:17] <adamgreig> in engineering I've not had to use uncertainties once :P
[19:17] <nats`> too much pcb the other will be used for an antenna mount :)
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[19:17] <adamgreig> instead we use dimensionless units and scaling arguments, haha, screw numbers
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[19:18] <nats`> +1 adamgreig numbers sucks
[19:18] <adamgreig> nats`: I like to have numbers eventually though, my degree is engineering not maths ;)
[19:18] <adamgreig> but I would have regular entertaining arguments with my maths friend who hasn't used numbers in years
[19:18] <adamgreig> then again he calls the square root of -1 "i" when everybody knows it's "j"
[19:18] <nats`> 10k 10u 10n 10p are the solutions to every problem :D
[19:18] <adamgreig> so I stopped listening to him much ;P
[19:18] <adamgreig> haha
[19:19] <adamgreig> my keyboard has a µ button
[19:19] <adamgreig> so great
[19:19] <enkidu> adamgreig: but i, j, k are all imaginary modules, everyone imaginary other way
[19:19] <adamgreig> i, j, k are unit vectors
[19:19] <adamgreig> sure
[19:19] <adamgreig> but only j is imaginary
[19:19] <nats`> at least you have an engineering degree :p
[19:20] <enkidu> adamgreig: in quaternions i,j,k are imaginary
[19:20] <adamgreig> details
[19:20] <nats`> Ohh my god it's talking about quaternion....
[19:20] <adamgreig> nats`: and yet he graduated 8th in his year (in maths! in 4th year! his whole year got firsts!), declined a fully paid up PhD
[19:20] <nats`> dudes why are you so rude ?!
[19:20] <adamgreig> and now he's doing software developing at a startup in london
[19:20] <adamgreig> so lol
[19:21] <Willdude123> Wait
[19:21] <Willdude123> That won't worl
[19:21] <Willdude123> Work
[19:21] <adamgreig> enkidu: but fair enough, quaternions do have a lot more imaginary dimensions
[19:21] <Willdude123> Because the answers have different uncertainties
[19:21] <Willdude123> For 1 and 2
[19:21] <adamgreig> just I'm sure you can think of better names than i, j, k
[19:21] <adamgreig> Willdude123: yes because they have different measurements
[19:21] <adamgreig> if you measure something to be 1km +- 1mm
[19:21] <nats`> Alice Parnassus and Inception
[19:21] <nats`> good var name
[19:21] <adamgreig> that's obviously a lot better than 50cm +- 1mm
[19:21] <adamgreig> right?
[19:21] <adamgreig> even though both are the "same" uncertainty
[19:21] <Willdude123> Mhm
[19:22] <adamgreig> if you convert the uncertainties to percentages of the value
[19:22] <adamgreig> it will make more sense
[19:22] <Willdude123> Ah OK
[19:22] <adamgreig> which is what enkidu was getting at with the formula he gave you
[19:22] <nats`> one day I should try to have an engineering degree....
[19:22] <adamgreig> however yes - you should be able to just find out the smallest possible value for both h and t, calculate the corresponding value of g
[19:22] <adamgreig> and compare that to the middle value of g you get if you had no error
[19:22] <adamgreig> nats`: it is a fancy piece of paper
[19:23] <nats`> I don't know if it's only that I don't have any diploma in the field I work for
[19:23] <adamgreig> but I am not convinced I learnt more in the degree than by myself
[19:23] <nats`> and sometime I clearly miss some math and other stuff
[19:24] <enkidu> adamgreig: also there is often used uncertainity for K=2
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[19:25] <Willdude123> None of the answers fit
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[19:25] <Willdude123> Here's my thinking
[19:25] <Willdude123> (2*1.503)/0.553^2
[19:25] <Willdude123> =9.823
[19:26] <Willdude123> 9.881-9.823= 0.058
[19:27] <Willdude123> 0.058 is not an answer
[19:27] <Willdude123> (measurement 2)
[19:27] <adamgreig> uhm
[19:27] <adamgreig> it's not =9.823
[19:27] <adamgreig> wait
[19:27] <adamgreig> sorry yes it is
[19:28] <adamgreig> well
[19:28] <Willdude123> That's using g=2h/t^2
[19:28] <adamgreig> yea
[19:28] <adamgreig> I guess you can't do it that way then.
[19:28] <adamgreig> >_>
[19:29] <adamgreig> haha wikipedia is so unhelpful
[19:30] <enkidu> well, i got for 1 : g: 9.84 u 0.06
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[19:31] <enkidu> and for two: g 9,88 u 0,09
[19:32] <adamgreig> well that would fit :P how?
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[19:32] <enkidu> from equation I showed u
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[19:33] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:33] Nick change: pc01_ -> Steve_2E0VET
[19:33] <Willdude123> enkidu, I'd rather work through it an a way I understand.
[19:33] <nats`> grrrr I fucking hate tqfp !
[19:33] <enkidu> it is wrong way too
[19:34] <Willdude123> nats`, language
[19:35] <nats`> more C than Delphi ;)
[19:35] <nats`> oky really hate tqfp
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[19:38] <enkidu> Willdude123: https://www.writelatex.com/read/cbwxssskzdns
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[19:42] <Willdude123> enkidu, could you explain why that is true?
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[19:45] <enkidu> because you want to combine uncertanities of: height and time. because time is used twice in equation for g (square), you have to use t's uncertainity twice
[19:45] <Laurenceb_> enkidu: so you ran hysplit using past data?
[19:46] <Laurenceb_> what happens if you run it from the predicted position?
[19:46] <enkidu> using model? nothing good. but it has drift, so we have to wait.
[19:47] <KevWal> nats`: tqfp isnt bad, qfn or bga is bad :)
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[19:48] <Willdude123> I kinda get it
[19:48] <enkidu> Willdude123: also, combining uncertainities is u = sqrt (sum of squares (u(x)/x))
[19:49] <KevWal> nats`: magnification, flux, tiny amounts of solder, and you tube videos are your friend :)
[19:50] <enkidu> Willdude123: I have written it in short, normally you want to write it as g+-u(g,k=2)=9.88+-0.09 or so
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/13498_trj001.gif
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[19:50] <nats`> KevWal I hate tqfp but I love qfn and bga
[19:50] <nats`> I have the tools for those
[19:51] <enkidu> nothing goot atm, but it will turn north and then again south,
[19:51] <nats`> tqfp is boring I always end up with shortcut
[19:51] <KevWal> nats`: wow, ok :)
[19:51] <enkidu> bga is easier, indeed
[19:52] <nats`> that problem is stm32 only do LFBGA
[19:52] <nats`> 0.8mm pitch and for OSHPARK it's too much constraint
[19:52] <nats`> you can't route between the vias
[19:52] <nats`> so tqfp in the end
[19:52] <enkidu> or you can orded multi layer PCB
[19:53] <nats`> I did 4 layers
[19:53] <enkidu> I was using even 8 when needed
[19:53] <nats`> thats not the layer the problem
[19:53] <nats`> really you can't route
[19:53] <KevWal> nats`: lol, I got the wrong end of this conversation didnt I :)
[19:53] <nats`> KevWal why ?
[19:53] <Willdude123> Hmm £5 cashback amazon books
[19:54] <Willdude123> What should I read? ...
[19:54] <nats`> Fifty shade of grey ? :D
[19:54] <Willdude123> No.
[19:54] <Willdude123> I'm not into that stuff.
[19:54] <nats`> I hope so that was a joke
[19:54] <KevWal> nats`: I assumed you didnt like tqfp because it was too difficult - when you are doing 4 & 8 layer boards, BGA & qfn!
[19:55] <Willdude123> No I do have 100% cashback on amazon
[19:55] <Willdude123> That said, my bendy ruler got confiscated in French because I kept whipping the tables
[19:55] <nats`> in French ?
[19:55] <adamgreig> "monsieur! arrêter s.v.p.!"
[19:56] <adamgreig> poor tables
[19:56] <nats`> French like "Uhm maitresse je fouetterais bien vos fesses" ?
[19:56] <nats`> ;)
[19:56] <nats`> maybe she red Fifty shade of grey :)
[19:56] <adamgreig> haha
[19:57] <ibanezmatt13> basic music question if anybody knows. When grouping in 6/8 time: Can you group notes across beats 3 and 4 in a bar? I know that 6/8 is two dotted-crotchets so I'm not quite sure if that's allowed...
[19:59] <eroomde> <hand wavy dismissal of rules in the context of art>
[19:59] Action: ibanezmatt13 is a little confused
[20:00] <adamgreig> I don't think the conservatoires would like to hear that eroomde :P
[20:00] <adamgreig> hmm my cardboard+foil radar reflector is in the rain
[20:00] <adamgreig> might not be quite so rigid any more
[20:00] <adamgreig> oh well
[20:00] <eroomde> doppler radar?
[20:00] <adamgreig> no. that would be fun to try but harder to test :P
[20:01] <adamgreig> I wanna try doing the chirps and just looking at the return frequency
[20:01] <adamgreig> but you need to sync rx and tx precisely
[20:01] <adamgreig> and bladerf doesn't have scheduling yet
[20:01] <adamgreig> (it will! but not sure when)
[20:01] <adamgreig> the prn is working but I don't think I'll usefully be able to pick up a return that's sufficiently shifted and I don't think I can usefully oversample to increase time resolution without syncrhonisation
[20:02] <adamgreig> also I don't think I'm _actually_ getting enough crossover from tx to rx to see the tx pulse in the rx, so I probably need to add an attenuated crossover path physically
[20:02] <adamgreig> (or get that syncrhonisation going)
[20:02] <adamgreig> or write hardware code instead -- the fpga itself knows what's up
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> ibanezmatt13, music?
[20:03] <adamgreig> so if I just write some correlators on the fpga and massage the samples myself, I can get perfect sync between tx and rx
[20:03] <ibanezmatt13> yea
[20:03] <adamgreig> but writing hardware is scary/I've not done it before
[20:03] <adamgreig> a prn generator and fft probably isn't a bad starting point mind
[20:03] <nats`> adamgreig it require a little more thinking than software but that's not that hard
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[20:03] <adamgreig> nats`: yea I definitely want to pick it up as a skill
[20:03] <ibanezmatt13> Lunar_Lander: I'm terrible at music theory :P
[20:03] <nats`> FFT is not a good start I think
[20:04] <adamgreig> and having an fpga connected to a nice SDR and with firmware uploadable over USB is a nice place to start
[20:04] <adamgreig> nats`: I don't mean in terms of easiness
[20:04] <adamgreig> just in terms of being chunky and useful :P
[20:04] <Willdude123> eroomde, what should I read, more Camus or Orwell?
[20:04] <eroomde> Orwell
[20:04] <adamgreig> in theory I know how in place FFTs work...
[20:04] <DL1SGP> Orwell yes
[20:04] <adamgreig> like I can draw myself a butterfly diagram ;)
[20:04] <adamgreig> read some wilde
[20:04] <adamgreig> or lovecraft
[20:05] <adamgreig> always fun
[20:05] <Willdude123> Bear in mind I'm quite pensive atm so deep philosophical fiction might be a bit depressing
[20:05] <eroomde> read some funnt-clever stuff too
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:05] <eroomde> like waugh or wilde
[20:05] <Willdude123> Like bill bryson?
[20:05] <eroomde> oh, too slow
[20:05] <adamgreig> :P
[20:05] <adamgreig> oh man I have the nicest compilation of wilde's stuff
[20:05] <adamgreig> it's so fancy
[20:05] <eroomde> if you read joyce enevr announce it to anyone publically
[20:05] <eroomde> especially not under the age of 18
[20:06] <adamgreig> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/sx1ui4t3w6ou8sw/NWIZ15jtxf
[20:06] <adamgreig> look at that
[20:06] <eroomde> or else you'll deserve the punch in the face that you'll get
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[20:06] <adamgreig> book prize money well spent
[20:06] <Willdude123> Urgh, Christians
[20:06] Nick change: mat__ -> Guest73298
[20:07] Action: Willdude123 retracts that comment with immediate effect.
[20:07] <adamgreig> maybe you'd enjoy some kafka, while we're at it
[20:07] <Willdude123> Well. It might be worth getting 1984
[20:07] <Willdude123> It's free.
[20:07] <Willdude123> Oh wait my dad has a copy.
[20:07] <adamgreig> though I struggled with metamorphosis >_>
[20:07] <Willdude123> More Camus vs Wild
[20:07] <Willdude123> *Wilde
[20:08] Nick change: s11_gym -> signaleleven
[20:09] <eroomde> read his essays
[20:09] <eroomde> i enjoyed them more than everything else
[20:09] <eroomde> (orwell)
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[20:10] <Willdude123> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shooting-Elephant-Essays-Penguin-Classics/dp/0141187395/ref=sr_1_sc_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378930240&sr=1-3-spell&keywords=orwell+essaus
[20:11] <Willdude123> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Essays-Penguin-Modern-Classics-George/dp/0141183063/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1378930268&sr=1-1
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[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[20:11] <Willdude123> I suppose I did like Camus
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> great machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOn4gxj2Dso
[20:12] <Willdude123> Argh I don't know what to choose
[20:12] <eroomde> they're all on the net i think
[20:12] <eroomde> the shooting an elephant essay is pareticularly good though
[20:14] <Willdude123> The collection includes it
[20:14] <Willdude123> eroomde, I have to read during tutor time.
[20:14] <Willdude123> If you do so much as to look away from your book, you get told off
[20:15] <Steve_2E0VET> anyone know a decent free python editor for windows
[20:15] <Willdude123> Acoording to my deputy head " If you don't read regularly you have a 25% chance of passing your GCSEs. If you do read you have an 85% chance of passing your GCSEs. So if you don't read regularly you have a 1 in 5 chance of passing your GCSEs
[20:16] <Willdude123> Which is total bull.
[20:16] <adamgreig> lol what
[20:16] <mfa298> Steve_2E0VET: notepad++ often get's recommended as a good text editor (or for the Unix/Linux bods there's gvim)
[20:16] <adamgreig> does he realise that 25% is not the same as 1/5, anyway?
[20:16] <adamgreig> notepad++
[20:16] <Willdude123> No
[20:16] <adamgreig> sublime text
[20:16] <adamgreig> gvim
[20:16] <Willdude123> He was improving
[20:16] <Willdude123> improvising
[20:16] <adamgreig> lol
[20:16] <adamgreig> poorly
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[20:17] <Steve_2E0VET> notepad++ doesnt do the syntax highlight i dont think
[20:17] <Willdude123> Early on last year (Year 8) I got a 7A in English. My end of year 9 target is 6B, I beat that at the end of year 7
[20:17] <Willdude123> I've never read regularly
[20:17] <ibanezmatt13> Lunar_Lander: That's the most hilarious thing :)
[20:18] <mfa298> Steve_2E0VET: the page for notepad++ says it does syntax highlighting (although doesn't say what languages)
[20:18] <adamgreig> it almost certainly does
[20:18] <mfa298> although I'd be surprised if it didn't support python
[20:18] <Willdude123> Hmm going for the fall.
[20:19] <Steve_2E0VET> mfa298, think i have only used it for HTML before, but i will fire it up an see
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> xD yea
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[20:19] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[20:24] <Steve_2E0VET> any Pi experts here?
[20:24] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[20:25] <mfa298> depends what you need to know
[20:25] <Steve_2E0VET> mfa298, it does python syntax handling
[20:25] <mfa298> usually it's best to just ask the question and if people know they'll answer.
[20:25] <nats`> notepad++ ?
[20:26] <nats`> it supports almost all existing language in syntax highlight
[20:26] <eroomde> windows text editor nats`
[20:26] <eroomde> oh you knikew that
[20:26] <eroomde> knew*
[20:26] <Steve_2E0VET> i've only got /dev/ttyACM0 but need /dev/ttyAMA0 as well, does the TX/RX UART need enabling to get that]
[20:26] <nats`> yes haf time under windows half other under linux
[20:26] <nats`> but I definitely prefeer gvim
[20:27] <mfa298> as far as I'm aware the Pi only has one useable UART which is normally ttyAMA0
[20:27] <eroomde> who doesn't
[20:28] <nats`> emacs fan boy ? :D
[20:29] <eroomde> me!?
[20:29] <eroomde> as one-word reviews go, this is up there
[20:29] <eroomde> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keithley/
[20:29] <nats`> no those who don't like gvim :p
[20:29] <mfa298> from a quick google I'm assuming ttyACM0 is a USB device (arduino ?)
[20:29] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, still haven't done a vatsim flight
[20:30] <adamgreig> eroomde: haha that's such a terrible video
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[20:30] <ibanezmatt13> I would do one, you'll enjoy it once you're used to it
[20:30] <mfa298> to be able to use ttyAMA0 properly you will need to disable the kernel logs and getty that run on it by default (although it will still print one line as the kernel boots)
[20:31] <Steve_2E0VET> mfa298, yes I have done that
[20:31] <mfa298> by default you may not have access to the tty ports, On some systems I've added my normal user to the dialout group to give me access
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[20:32] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, How's college going>
[20:32] <ibanezmatt13> very well Will. It's a big step up from GCSE :)
[20:32] <mfa298> This should add pi to the right group if not already: usermod -a -G dialout pi
[20:32] <mfa298> you'll need to logout and back in after
[20:32] <Willdude123> It's the only age group where you can put your feet up on the chair next to you on buses
[20:33] <Willdude123> Make the most of it
[20:33] <ibanezmatt13> you're joking aren't you. You'd be lucky to be standing on the busses :)
[20:33] <Willdude123> Nowadays, even if the bus is full, there are people with their feet up on the seets.
[20:33] <ibanezmatt13> truwe
[20:33] <Willdude123> Basingstoke buses are good.
[20:34] <Willdude123> They aren't too crowded. Most people fall out at the roundabouts anyway.
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[20:35] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, you're above me on the pisg records... I've been here longer than you, not fair...
[20:35] <nats`> someone with an advice to repair soldermask ?
[20:35] <ibanezmatt13> what's PISG?
[20:36] Astrobiologist (~yaaic@ left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[20:36] <nats`> I screwed some pad on my board by putting a bigger soldermask
[20:36] <Willdude123> http://habhub.org/zeusbot/pisg.html
[20:36] <nats`> I was wondering if polish nail could do the trick
[20:36] <Willdude123> I really need to beat mattbrejza
[20:36] KiwiDean (~Thunderbi@ left irc: Quit: KiwiDean
[20:36] <Willdude123> So forgive me for being talkative
[20:36] <ibanezmatt13> my quote is typical of me :/
[20:36] <enkidu> nats`: I was using glass paint for repairs
[20:37] <nats`> glass paint ?
[20:37] <enkidu> special paint for glass and ceramic painting
[20:37] <mfa298> Willdude123: I'm not sure being in the top 30 is necessarily a good thing when you're a relative newcomer for those stats.
[20:37] <enkidu> paint-dry-bake
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[20:37] <nats`> ohh oky
[20:37] <Willdude123> mfa298, sorry I'll shut up then
[20:37] <nats`> and that handles the heat of the iron ?
[20:37] <mattbrejza> Willdude123: ¬.¬
[20:37] <mattbrejza> bllaaa
[20:37] <mattbrejza> lalala
[20:37] <eroomde> yeah being on that list is not a good sign
[20:37] <mattbrejza> etc
[20:37] <Willdude123> I'm gonna beat you
[20:37] <Willdude123> Sure.
[20:38] <Willdude123> eroomde, you are...
[20:38] crash_18974_ (~crash_@2605:8900:1000:1001:8:0:e:2) joined #highaltitude.
[20:38] <mattbrejza> you got up that list fast
[20:38] <Willdude123> mattbrejza, I challenge you to a talking battle.
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[20:38] <eroomde> Willdude123: oh thanks for telling me, i didn't realise
[20:38] <Willdude123> No problem. Haven't you seen pisg before?
[20:38] <ibanezmatt13> That list seems like the most pointless thing. What's wrong with talking a lot?
[20:38] <eroomde> nope never
[20:39] <mfa298> if only pisg had a S/N ratio on it.
[20:39] Action: eroomde is seeing how long he can continue the sarcasm streak before the penny drops
[20:39] <mattbrejza> shame it doesnt order by first joined
[20:39] <mattbrejza> although nick changes wont help
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/11/first-aerial-refueling/
[20:39] <Willdude123> Ah right
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> scary
[20:39] <eroomde> 1/2/3 and occupied by <=2006-ers
[20:39] <Willdude123> mattbrejza, I will win
[20:39] <mfa298> consider that those pisg stats are based on ~7 years of data and then consider your position based on how long you've been here.
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[20:40] <Willdude123> I need something good for my quote
[20:40] Nick change: crash_18974_ -> crash_18974
[20:40] <Willdude123> I'm an amazing grammar nazi http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FNXFparm&h=3AQG5CzG2
[20:41] <Willdude123> Anyway gotta win this
[20:41] <Willdude123> So...
[20:41] <Willdude123> I could pretend my
[20:41] <Willdude123> enter
[20:41] <Willdude123> button
[20:41] <mattbrejza> we'll just ban your nick so you have to start again from 0
[20:41] <Willdude123> is
[20:41] <Willdude123> sticky
[20:41] <Willdude123> I've been banned
[20:41] <Willdude123> too many
[20:41] <Willdude123> times
[20:41] #highaltitude: mode change '+o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:41] <eroomde> shut up Willdude123
[20:41] <Willdude123> OK
[20:41] <Willdude123> Plz just mute me
[20:41] <mattbrejza> youll have to strt again from will124 at this rate
[20:42] Action: Laurenceb_ realises he has had willdude on ignore for several days
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[20:42] Action: Willdude123 wonders why
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> so quiet and relaxing
[20:42] <ibanezmatt13> lol
[20:42] <Willdude123> Sorry.
[20:42] <Willdude123> I kinda took that too far
[20:43] #highaltitude: mode change '-o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:43] <Willdude123> Laurenceb_ forgive me for thinking that you weren't joking when you insulted my head
[20:43] <mattbrejza> im not sure how you arnt top of thte 'kicked' list though
[20:44] <nats`> enkidu I give up for tonight
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[20:44] <Willdude123> mattbrejza, thanks
[20:44] <nats`> the mask is really messy
[20:44] <nats`> I must have send the bad gerber
[20:44] <nats`> I'll let you know if I can fix it with you dry baked paint
[20:44] <Willdude123> ahem ahem [12:59] <Laurenceb_> hopefully it fixed his head
[20:46] <enkidu> nats`: there is nothing you cannot fix on side layers
[20:46] <Steve_2E0VET> anyone know how to enable the pi cam via VNC as opposed to putting on the tv
[20:47] <F5MVO> good evening, i search frequency and parameters Buzz, thanks
[20:47] <nats`> enkidu you're right :)
[20:47] <Steve_2E0VET> raspberry
[20:47] <nats`> but at work I'll have the binocular
[20:48] <enkidu> right. Sometimes I was using old camera lens, they are great. Also, for inspection I am using flatbed scanner
[20:48] <nats`> a friend advised me to buy a magnifying glass like for jewelerry
[20:48] <nats`> I found some cheap on ebay maybe I'll give it a try
[20:49] <nats`> and for inspection I use my wafer microscope that's cool for that :)
[20:49] <nats`> if you can find cheap on ebay like olympus BH
[20:49] <nats`> for 150$ sometimes that's really great
[20:50] <enkidu> microscope is cool, but I like scanner, because I can scan PCB and compare it with masks in GIMP
[20:50] <nats`> never though of that !
[20:50] <enkidu> it is easy and fast
[20:50] <nats`> I add that to my todo list
[20:53] <adamgreig> F5MVO: not really flying
[20:53] <adamgreig> just a test
[20:53] <adamgreig> as I understand it
[20:54] <F5MVO> ok thanks
[20:54] <adamgreig> nats`: loupes are good
[20:54] <adamgreig> but stereo scope is the way to go!
[20:54] <adamgreig> you can solder under them
[20:54] <adamgreig> makes me so happy
[20:54] <adamgreig> 0201 becomes no biggie
[20:54] <mfa298> Steve_2E0VET: as I think most of the PiCam stuff is done in the GPU it may not be possible to send it over vnc
[20:55] <nats`> adamgreig I think I'll buy one soon because I have to do it at work and that's not cool
[20:55] <nats`> I'm not sure if I take high brand one or just cheap chinese
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[20:56] <enkidu> cheap chinese are cheap, unless you have to buy three in a row
[20:57] <Steve_2E0VET> mfa298, it was raspi-config i was looking for
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> dammit. I need a big quadcopter.
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> I forgot to put the bin out again.
[20:58] <nats`> or a terminator ? ;)
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[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> the new MOBIUS camera looks interesting, 1080p30
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> but as it is made from the 808 company, I don't know if it jams GPS too
[20:59] <mattbrejza> just put in a seperate box a few meters away
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:03] <ibanezmatt13> there are so many talented people in the world, people are awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGIs8JHXwI8
[21:03] <cuddykid> is the size K h2 cylinder 7.2m3 volume?
[21:04] <cuddykid> can't find it on their website, though seem to remember it's around that amount
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[21:14] Nick change: G0TDJ_Steve -> G0TDJ_AFK
[21:14] <mikestir> is there a recommended intervalometer script for chdk or is the included one ok?
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[21:15] <cuddykid> whatever you do, don't put sleep 1000000
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[21:16] <cuddykid> anything under that number is fine
[21:16] <WillTablet> I just realized I live in a country where you are legally reqd to give authorities encryption keys if they askl
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[21:18] <mfa298> it's alright the NSA (and GCHQ) probably have them anyway.
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[21:31] <Steve_2E0VET> cd\
[21:32] <nats`> Unknown command
[21:32] <Steve_2E0VET> lol
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[21:34] <mfa298> surely cd\ would be waiting for more input (or would be a valid cmd)
[21:34] <adamgreig> not in IRC :P
[21:35] <nats`> cd\ on windows ?
[21:35] <nats`> that works....
[21:35] <nats`> direct to root of disk it seems
[21:35] <mfa298> cd\ on windows is a valid command. cd\ on *nix would be waiting for more input.
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[22:00] <fsphil> mikestir: I'd suggest writing it in Lua if you are not using an existing one
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[22:00] <fsphil> Lua's main advantage is that it's not ubasic
[22:01] <mikestir> hi fsphil. the latest chdk comes with both a basic and lua version of a suitable script
[22:01] <mikestir> i'm using the lua one
[22:01] <mikestir> doesn't seem to sleep very efficiently between shots though - idles at over 300 mA even with the lcd disabled
[22:02] <fsphil> its idea of sleep may be an infinite loop :)
[22:02] <fsphil> that does seem quite a lot
[22:02] <fsphil> maybe it's keeping the sensor running
[22:02] <mikestir> is 2Ah a reasonable estimate for ultimate lithiums over temperature?
[22:02] <mikestir> AA
[22:03] <fsphil> not tested, someone else might have. I just did a duration test with some AA rechargables
[22:03] <fsphil> then multiplied the time by two for the lithiums :)
[22:04] <mikestir> I just did a current test with a bench supply and logging DVM
[22:04] <mikestir> just for some sort of initial indication
[22:04] <fsphil> with the rechargables I got about four hours, taking a picture every 10 seconds
[22:04] <fsphil> on an A530
[22:04] <mikestir> I'll see if I can get the idle down. It should last even now, but it's still a lot
[22:04] <fsphil> and screen off
[22:04] <mikestir> might help to keep the payload warm :)
[22:04] <mikestir> this is an A470, 10 seconds as well
[22:04] <fsphil> or the camera itself
[22:05] <fsphil> our first camera (not a canon iirc) the grease in the lens mechanism froze up
[22:06] <mikestir> oops. hopefully this will all work out
[22:06] <mikestir> I'm using an RFM22 because I already had some boards designed for RFM23 (which is the same)
[22:07] <fsphil> yea you'll need the heat for those :)
[22:07] <mikestir> what's the usual failure mode?
[22:07] <fsphil> they stop transmitting
[22:07] <mikestir> I tested it in the freezer last night for a short time and it didn't drift linearly - I suspect it was actually condensation rather than thermal effects
[22:07] <mikestir> I'm going to varnish it
[22:08] <fsphil> it's worth putting in code something that resets the radio every minute or so
[22:08] <fsphil> just incase it resets itself, and goes back to default settings
[22:08] <mikestir> yes I'm going to. I already have that for the gps
[22:08] <mikestir> I wrote a nice ubx poller that checks the dynamic model and stuff
[22:09] <mikestir> resets everything if anything is remotely amiss
[22:09] <fsphil> excellent
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[22:09] <mikestir> and the watchdog timer is running, being kicked in the loop that fills the ringbuffer into the rtty isr
[22:10] <mikestir> so not re-initing the tx is probably the only remaining weak point
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[22:10] <mikestir> I have real receiver now, and so far the rfm22 looks rock solid stable at room temperature
[22:11] <mikestir> no real drift due to antenna loading
[22:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://clusterballoon.com/
[22:11] <fsphil> I still don't really trust them
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[22:12] <fsphil> and I'm a bit worried that the ntx2 has a computer in it :)
[22:12] <fsphil> ntx2b
[22:12] <mikestir> I will certainly be testing it over voltage and temperature into the SA before it goes up
[22:12] <mikestir> my main observation so far is that it doesn't work down to anywhere near the rated 1.8V
[22:12] <mikestir> the RFM23, however, does
[22:13] <mikestir> the difference is Si4431 vs 4432, and the antenna switching circuit is bypassed
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[22:15] <Laurenceb_> fsphil: B-11 used silabs
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> where is this clusterballoon then?
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[22:18] <fsphil> I know. I've just seen too many rfm22b's fail
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[22:18] <fsphil> which is probably more the cheap parts around the radio
[22:18] <fsphil> than the IC itself
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[22:18] <mikestir> it's a pity the 433 MHz RFM23B isn't easier to find
[22:19] <mikestir> it's a much simpler circuit, and can still do +13dBm
[22:19] <mikestir> and software compatible
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[22:23] <mikestir> I'm probably going to fly an 868 tracker as well as a backup
[22:23] <mikestir> since I've got loads of 868 RFM23Bs
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[22:27] <Laurenceb_> hmm no clusterballoon at all
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[22:31] <fsphil> flying an 869mhz module has been on my todo list for far too long
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> the writing is a bit mad on that clusterballoon page
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> but then id expect it to be less than sane
[22:31] <fsphil> you sort of have to be a bit mad to even attempt it
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[22:33] <mikestir> I haven't decided how I'm going to configure it yet. I might restrict the duty cycle so I can run 100mW
[22:34] <adamgreig> can you do higher duty if you listen-before-send?
[22:34] <adamgreig> or is that HF only
[22:34] <fsphil> yea that's valid for 869 too
[22:34] <adamgreig> cool
[22:34] <mikestir> I think the method is quite carefully defined though
[22:34] <craag> Although you have to listen at least once a second I believe
[22:34] <adamgreig> eh ;)
[22:34] <mikestir> and you have to implement frequency hoping as well
[22:34] <adamgreig> that sounds fun
[22:35] <mikestir> hopping even
[22:35] <adamgreig> still only does fsk, sigh
[22:35] <adamgreig> I am so flying my hackrf when it turns up
[22:35] <adamgreig> see just how much data I can push out on 434, 868 etc
[22:35] <craag> :)
[22:35] <fsphil> hah
[22:36] <adamgreig> especially with my hackrf receiving
[22:36] <adamgreig> 12bit 40MS/s 28MHz
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[22:36] <adamgreig> bitchin'
[22:36] <fsphil> that's also on my todo list: fly an rtlsdr, recording the 434mhz area
[22:36] <adamgreig> oh that'd be fun
[22:36] <fsphil> see how much noise is up there
[22:36] <adamgreig> yea
[22:36] <adamgreig> might do that at the same time on the hackrf
[22:36] <fsphil> making the odd recording on the fm band, amateur bands
[22:36] <fsphil> see what it can hear with line of sight to the entire country
[22:36] <adamgreig> maybe key up a few repeaters
[22:36] <adamgreig> just for shits n giggles
[22:37] <adamgreig> why are they listening for input on the ism band, honestly
[22:37] <adamgreig> asking for trouble
[22:37] <fsphil> that is big flaw
[22:37] <mikestir> key up all of them at once :)
[22:37] <adamgreig> oooh
[22:37] <adamgreig> yes
[22:37] <fsphil> lol
[22:37] <adamgreig> easy to transmit all the ctcss tones on all the input freqs
[22:37] <craag> haha
[22:37] <adamgreig> or just freq hop between them
[22:37] <adamgreig> so they can't easily df it either
[22:37] <adamgreig> that might be pushing my luck
[22:37] <fsphil> just transmit the audio "We are the Borg"
[22:38] <adamgreig> in something like psk31 or rtty or cw. or just voice.
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[22:38] <mikestir> create a huge feedback loop through a load of irlp nodes
[22:38] <adamgreig> hmm
[22:38] <adamgreig> you could do that from the ground though?
[22:38] <adamgreig> no fun
[22:39] <mikestir> true
[22:39] <adamgreig> find repeaters that might be in range of each other and key them up maybe more interesting
[22:39] <adamgreig> but I'm not sure that'd really work
[22:39] <adamgreig> usually band limited enough
[22:39] <fsphil> shame 446 isn't allowed in the air
[22:39] <fsphil> could setup a repeater
[22:39] <adamgreig> anyway trolling hams probably gets boring quick
[22:39] <adamgreig> the ukhas mailing list is easier to troll ;)
[22:39] <fsphil> that said, you could receive on 446mhz and repeat on 434mhz
[22:39] <adamgreig> just drop a payload without a parachute over central london or something
[22:39] <mikestir> hams trolling car key fobs is more fun
[22:40] <adamgreig> fsphil: ooh, that could be entertaining
[22:40] <adamgreig> bet you'd pick up a load of stuff
[22:40] <adamgreig> mikestir: hab payloads trolling chase cars is the best
[22:40] <adamgreig> "can't.. unlock.. my.. car"
[22:40] <fsphil> oooh, I could fly an rtlsdr recording 434mhz while another payload is in the air
[22:40] <fsphil> see if it can hear it
[22:40] <adamgreig> yup
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> you could fly a cc1020
[22:41] <mikestir> see if you can hear b11
[22:41] <fsphil> not quite two way, and not real time though
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> if you remember my cc1020 from ages ago
[22:41] <fsphil> sadly even at 40km over the UK, the B's are way out of range
[22:41] <mikestir> is anyone going to do HF ISM?
[22:41] <mikestir> should I put my longwire back up?
[22:41] <fsphil> someone did
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> mikestir: it was being discussed
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> there is debate about power line shorting risks
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> need to so some plasma modelling :P
[22:42] <adamgreig> fsphil: did you work out the bitrate you wanted for live video from a hab?
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> if i know how...???
[22:42] <mattbrejza> i tried once
[22:43] <adamgreig> I worked it out a few ways
[22:43] <adamgreig> it varies a lot depending on Things
[22:43] <mattbrejza> was midweek, noone listened :-P
[22:43] <adamgreig> lol
[22:43] <adamgreig> of course
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> im not sure what happens once you create a spark across a power line
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> at some point its going to become a self sustaining plasma breakdown
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> but its how much you have to "feed" it
[22:44] <fsphil> adamgreig: at a very minimum, about 256kbit/s
[22:44] <mikestir> meh. that's what auto-reclosers are for :D
[22:44] <fsphil> well for really small images at 25fps, about 60kbit/s
[22:45] <craag> Apparently the pi cam gives ok images at 64kbps
[22:45] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: yea I'd expect the line to auto reclose
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: there are pictures on youtube
[22:45] <mikestir> encode with libcaca
[22:45] <adamgreig> breakers are magical
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: With retards laughing
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> lolz
[22:45] <adamgreig> haha I don't think libcaca is gonna give great quality footage :P
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> im going to be laughing too when i find these videos
[22:45] <adamgreig> I do wonder about something like VP8
[22:45] <fsphil> yea, it uses h264 so it'll be far better than what I'm doing (slightly better than motion jpeg)
[22:46] <mattbrejza> no hw encoders though
[22:46] <adamgreig> my bladerf has an fpga ;)
[22:46] <adamgreig> but in all seriousness yes, h.264 on an rpi probably easier
[22:46] <mattbrejza> not big enough for video encoding
[22:46] <adamgreig> no I guess not
[22:46] <mikestir> a standalone image sensor/small fpga combination would be ideal
[22:46] <mattbrejza> you havnt tried verilog yet
[22:47] <mikestir> I have that on my todo list, but it's way down near the bottom still
[22:47] <fsphil> I'm sure the h264 frames can be packed in a way that allows better handling of lost packets
[22:47] <mattbrejza> might have different opionon after you do
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HdTAJ2Yomg
[22:47] <fsphil> the headers could be repeated every few seconds
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iKpsfhGqWRg#t=30
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> oh dear
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> It persists for some time - either the arc is limiting the current, and then goes out, or the breaker pops
[22:48] <Laurenceb_> yeah thats not what you want to happen
[22:48] <Laurenceb_> i suspect its more of a risk on the higher voltage lines
[22:48] <adamgreig> something like VP9 looks really good too
[22:48] <adamgreig> maybe just send up a slightly beefier CPU
[22:48] <Laurenceb_> as they are placed closer
[22:49] <adamgreig> bbb might do it
[22:49] <fsphil> VP9 needs much CPU
[22:49] <Laurenceb_> relative to breakdown
[22:49] <adamgreig> a return to payloads of yore
[22:49] <adamgreig> an intel atom board or something
[22:49] <adamgreig> core i7 on a pc104
[22:49] <mikestir> the 50/60 Hz noise from the plasma is impressive
[22:49] <fsphil> doubt even that could do it
[22:49] <adamgreig> doubt an i7 could do it?
[22:49] <fsphil> I don't think they've managed to get vp9 working real time
[22:49] <adamgreig> oh
[22:49] <adamgreig> well
[22:49] <adamgreig> that would be an issue
[22:49] <fsphil> it's still very new though
[22:49] <adamgreig> it's in my chrome
[22:49] <mattbrejza> real time on cpu?
[22:50] <adamgreig> so u hm
[22:50] <adamgreig> probably works realtime?
[22:50] <mattbrejza> muct gave h/w?
[22:50] <mikestir> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1O2jcfOylU
[22:50] <fsphil> the decoder will work realtime
[22:50] <adamgreig> oh right
[22:50] <craag> H.265 is also still incredibly slow to encode
[22:51] <mikestir> it might not be worth it - it's not like there are rapid scene changes
[22:51] <mikestir> mpeg4 might actually work just as well for less effort
[22:51] <adamgreig> yea just h.264 on an rpi is probably gonna be by far the easiest
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> mikestir: that's awesome
[22:51] <mikestir> SpeedEvil: I know
[22:51] <fsphil> ack, now I've got the mario tune in my head
[22:53] <fsphil> it's such an addictive little melody
[22:53] <mikestir> you could purge it by listening to the nyan cat tune
[22:54] <fsphil> hmmm
[22:54] <fsphil> tempting
[22:54] <fsphil> *lie
[22:55] <adamgreig> mmm with the hackrf I could transmit in qpsk or qam64 or something
[22:55] <mikestir> cofdm
[22:55] <adamgreig> just a question of snr
[22:55] <fsphil> how hard could it be
[22:55] <adamgreig> oh yea
[22:56] <mikestir> might help with fading
[22:56] <adamgreig> hmm maybe
[22:56] <fsphil> spread the symbols out over time?
[22:56] <adamgreig> not sure the fading we see on habs is similar to the fading cofdm helps
[22:56] <mattbrejza> arnt we nornally awgn?
[22:56] <adamgreig> no
[22:56] <adamgreig> well yes and no
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> this power line problem looks serious :-/
[22:56] <fsphil> a spinning payload causes flutter
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> seems any arc is pretty self sustaining
[22:56] <adamgreig> yea spinning is annoying
[22:56] <fsphil> at annoyingly variable speeds
[22:57] <adamgreig> and bursts of manmade interference
[22:57] <mattbrejza> just have to make it stable?
[22:57] <mikestir> should help against the latter
[22:57] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: most modern power lines should trip when they see the short, killing the plasma, then reopen right after
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[22:57] <adamgreig> but obviously not a thing you want to like, play with
[22:57] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[22:57] <mikestir> right. time to go. gn
[22:57] <adamgreig> nn
[22:57] <mattbrejza> nn
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[22:57] <fsphil> we need a retractible hf antenna
[22:58] <adamgreig> in any event it'l be a lot of fun to toy with when this thing arrives
[22:58] <adamgreig> live video would be a highlight
[22:58] <adamgreig> not much else you can really do with a lot of data
[22:58] <adamgreig> 100Hz GPS position updates
[22:58] <adamgreig> just to screw with habitat
[22:58] <fsphil> I'm gonna fly this nbtv payload soon hopefully
[22:58] <fsphil> the video quality is
[22:58] <fsphil> not very
[22:58] <adamgreig> lol
[22:58] <fsphil> but it's still video
[22:59] <fsphil> I'm using software scaling on the receiver .. it's quite slow
[22:59] <mattbrejza> stillnnot sure enough snr on 434 for video
[22:59] <fsphil> I need about 18khz for this
[22:59] <fsphil> with a decent yagi on the ground I'm hoping it's enough
[23:00] <adamgreig> I wonder if, if you transmitted DVB-T
[23:00] <fsphil> nice thing about it being analogue is it doesn't have to be perfect
[23:00] <adamgreig> rtl-sdrs could just decode itlike normal
[23:00] <mattbrejza> 6MHz?
[23:00] <adamgreig> not sure if they can normally tune to the right frequency
[23:00] <fsphil> dvb-t needs 6mhz
[23:00] <adamgreig> hmmm
[23:00] <adamgreig> >_>
[23:00] <fsphil> 6-10mhz I think
[23:00] <adamgreig> details
[23:00] <fsphil> or is it just 6?
[23:00] <adamgreig> think it is 6 per block or whatever
[23:01] <adamgreig> yes
[23:01] <fsphil> I'm confusing it with DRM, which has different options
[23:01] <mattbrejza> well uk is 8
[23:01] <adamgreig> but you get so many channels in one block
[23:01] <fsphil> rtlsdr may support none standard options
[23:01] Action: SpeedEvil lolz.
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> DVB-T pirate airborne.
[23:01] <fsphil> dvb-t over ism would be kinda coo
[23:01] <fsphil> l
[23:02] <fsphil> eek, midnight
[23:02] <adamgreig> yea, transmit on licensed freqs, see how long it takes ofcom to shoot you out of the sky
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: I don't think they have a longbow for enforcement, never mind a blackhawk.
[23:03] <fsphil> they'd just hire enough lawyers to climb up and get it
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[23:07] <fsphil> you could do dvb on 2.4ghz
[23:07] <adamgreig> rtl sdr can't tune that high though
[23:07] <adamgreig> annoyingly
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[23:08] <fsphil> was thinking of a satellite receiver
[23:08] <adamgreig> but my bladeRF can
[23:08] <adamgreig> and has 12 bits
[23:08] <adamgreig> and then rebroadcast it on the internet
[23:08] <fsphil> dvb-s
[23:08] <adamgreig> hm
[23:08] <adamgreig> yea maybe
[23:08] <fsphil> dvb-s is simpler too
[23:08] <adamgreig> not sure the sat receiver could get it
[23:08] <adamgreig> but yea dvb-s is just a bpsk stream really
[23:08] <adamgreig> much higher baud though
[23:08] <fsphil> satellite recievers intermediate freq. is about 1.3ghz
[23:08] <fsphil> would need something to shift it down
[23:09] <adamgreig> microwave downconverters maybe not the easiest things?
[23:09] <fsphil> but it would be similar gear to what amateurs use
[23:09] <adamgreig> yea
[23:09] <fsphil> dvb-s using satellite receivers is quite popular
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FsRZ-I9_F0 - burning air is pretty
[23:09] <fsphil> and with 2.4ghz possibly disappearing soon, there might be some cheap gear
[23:09] <adamgreig> I would be interested to see how much data you could get down on 2.4GHz
[23:09] <adamgreig> possibly disappearing soon?
[23:10] <fsphil> I think amateurs are loosing part of their 2.4ghz allocation
[23:10] <fsphil> or maybe all of it
[23:10] <adamgreig> aww
[23:10] <fsphil> I don't rememmber
[23:11] <fsphil> but it's very easy to get 2.4ghz antennas too
[23:11] <fsphil> and probably even pre-amps
[23:11] <adamgreig> yea
[23:11] <adamgreig> all RP-SMA >_>
[23:11] <fsphil> or N
[23:11] <adamgreig> finding SMA 2.4GHz antennas more entertaining
[23:11] <adamgreig> true, N is easier
[23:11] <adamgreig> and such a nice connector
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[23:17] <fsphil> so bladerf, worth it then?
[23:17] <adamgreig> I think so
[23:17] <adamgreig> already had a _lot_ of fun with it
[23:18] <adamgreig> got up to 40MS/s full duplex. at 12 bit samples.
[23:18] <adamgreig> whichi s like 2.5Gbps data
[23:18] <adamgreig> mental
[23:18] <adamgreig> having a lot of fun just playing with stuff
[23:18] <adamgreig> and not yet touched the fpga
[23:18] <adamgreig> but having an fpga hooked up to a really good SDR which you can reprogram over USB? niice
[23:18] <fsphil> very
[23:18] <adamgreig> toyed with radar and prn stuff too
[23:18] <fsphil> can dump all the FEC onto the fpga
[23:18] <adamgreig> being able to make charts where the x-axis is in 0.1µs...
[23:18] <adamgreig> https://randomskk.net/u/capture024.png
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> What's the interface again?
[23:19] <adamgreig> the hackrf is a lot less capable in many ways
[23:19] <fsphil> that's a lot of colours
[23:19] <adamgreig> but cheaper and more fun
[23:19] <adamgreig> SpeedEvil: USB3
[23:19] <adamgreig> (so also USB2, but obviously you will struggle to get the bandwidth...)
[23:19] <adamgreig> whereas the hackRF is USB2 only, no FPGA (but a CPLD), half duplex, 20MS/s max, etc
[23:20] <adamgreig> though hackRF does go up to 6GHz where bladeRF only goes up to 3.8
[23:20] <adamgreig> and down to 50 where bladerf only goes down to 300
[23:20] <fsphil> hmmm.. £260
[23:20] <adamgreig> but like, 300MHz-3.8GHz is nice
[23:20] <adamgreig> yea - the hackrf is a fair bit cheaper which is definitely nice
[23:20] <adamgreig> wouldn't want to put my bladerf on a balloon
[23:20] <fsphil> bladerf is a good deal cheaper than the ettus stuff :)
[23:20] <adamgreig> yea it is
[23:21] <adamgreig> well-
[23:21] <adamgreig> maybe
[23:21] <adamgreig> http://www.taylorkillian.com/2013/08/sdr-showdown-hackrf-vs-bladerf-vs-usrp.html
[23:21] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[23:21] <adamgreig> the new ettus stuff, the B200/B210
[23:21] <adamgreig> well you can read that table for yourself
[23:21] <adamgreig> excellent breakdown of the hackrf vs bladerf vs usrp b100/b200/b210 ^
[23:21] <fsphil> also you can buy a bladerf, the hackrf doesn't seem to be available atm
[23:21] <adamgreig> yea - kickstarter only finished a week ago or something
[23:21] <adamgreig> expected to be available in jan/feb
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> sheeet
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> USRP is hardcore
[23:22] <adamgreig> the B210 is!
[23:22] <adamgreig> 2x2 MIMO
[23:22] <adamgreig> and 61MS/s
[23:22] <adamgreig> and a 75k/100k LE FPGA
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> crazy
[23:22] <adamgreig> insane
[23:22] <adamgreig> but $1100 for the good one
[23:23] <adamgreig> wheras my bladerf was $420 and the hackrf is $300
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> still cheap
[23:23] <adamgreig> yea definitely
[23:23] <adamgreig> I'd love a B210
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> compared to USRP from a few years ago
[23:23] <adamgreig> but can't afford one any time soon :P
[23:23] <adamgreig> yup for sure
[23:23] <adamgreig> and it's all onboard
[23:23] <adamgreig> no daughterboards
[23:23] <adamgreig> and USB3
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> but i worry about LO harmonics on all this stuff
[23:23] <adamgreig> so it's pretty good
[23:23] Action: fsphil will wait for the hackrf :)
[23:23] <adamgreig> fsphil: aww. bladerf is so fun! :P
[23:23] <adamgreig> the guys on their irc channel are excellent too
[23:24] <Laurenceb_> its not *this* easy to make wideband
[23:24] <adamgreig> I'm hopeful that once they get scheduling done on the fpga I can get my radar working
[23:24] <Laurenceb_> precision UAV landing :P
[23:24] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: the secret seems to be multiple RF paths
[23:24] <adamgreig> the bladeRF has two or three chains of filters and an RF switch to choose
[23:25] <adamgreig> fsphil: also I obviously wanna do a gps receiver now ;)
[23:25] <fsphil> oh yea, must check if that's online yet
[23:25] <adamgreig> the video's not
[23:25] <adamgreig> :(
[23:25] <adamgreig> not sure what the hold up is
[23:25] <adamgreig> suspect bad news by now
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> i see
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> maybe lack of "volunteers"
[23:26] <adamgreig> ?
[23:26] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: and the tuner IC itself has two bands
[23:26] <adamgreig> with different pins and hardware I guess
[23:26] <Laurenceb_> on the side he asks for volunteers to help with inflation
[23:26] <adamgreig> oh
[23:26] <adamgreig> shrug
[23:27] <adamgreig> bed time I think
[23:27] <fsphil> well past mine
[23:27] <fsphil> nite!
[23:28] <adamgreig> nn
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[00:00] --- Thu Sep 12 2013