highaltitude.log.20130830

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[06:39] <ibanezmatt13> Good Morning
[06:42] <UpuWork> morning Matt
[06:42] <ibanezmatt13> Just a quick one, is a 0.1uF cap enough for the ATMEAG328?
[06:42] <UpuWork> decoupling on the power lines ?
[06:42] <ibanezmatt13> yeah
[06:42] <UpuWork> ye sfine
[06:43] <ibanezmatt13> So, why was it recomended last night Ihavea 4.7uF and 0.1uF on the SD card bit, I thought that would need less.
[06:43] <UpuWork> I have no idea possibly thats in the spec for SD cards
[06:43] <ibanezmatt13> Ah ok, cool
[06:46] <daveake> In general ... you need a 0.1uF on anything digital, to stop Vcc dropping when the device needs a spike of current
[06:46] <daveake> Then, on devices that need a lot of current of a short time, you might need a larger cap too
[06:46] <ibanezmatt13> Ah ok, I just wondered whether 0.1uF was enough
[06:46] <daveake> dunno
[06:47] <ibanezmatt13> I got that code working btw daveake
[06:47] <daveake> wot code
[06:47] <ibanezmatt13> the URL code
[06:47] <daveake> erm don't remember
[06:47] <ibanezmatt13> that's ok :)
[06:47] <daveake> maybe you discussed with someone else>
[06:48] <daveake> ?
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13> definitely with you
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13> I was talking about your C code
[06:48] <daveake> ah well I'm old I forget stuff :p
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13> about making it exe
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13> remember?
[06:49] <daveake> erm no ... C code is always compiled
[06:49] <ibanezmatt13> anyway, I got it working so no need for anything :)
[06:49] <daveake> cool
[06:51] <ibanezmatt13> UpuWork: Abracon AMB3 vs HC49?
[06:51] <UpuWork> use my library and you can use either on the same pad
[06:52] <ibanezmatt13> oh right, cool :)
[06:53] <UpuWork> click Abracon ABM then the part is ABM03_HC49
[06:55] <ibanezmatt13> ok, thanks
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[07:04] <ibanezmatt13> UpuWork: What antennas should I start using now seen as the Sarantel ones aren't made anymore?
[07:06] <UpuWork> that is a very good question
[07:06] <UpuWork> are you designing a new board ?
[07:06] <ibanezmatt13> yea
[07:07] <ibanezmatt13> I considered the long thin one that was on Pava but I just wanted to be sure. What's the best one besides the Sarantel ones?
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[07:08] <ibanezmatt13> Is the JTI any good?
[07:09] <eroomde> any old patch antenna like the olden days will probably be the next best thing
[07:09] <UpuWork> thats the JTi
[07:09] <UpuWork> now again those are end of life
[07:10] <ibanezmatt13> ah
[07:10] <UpuWork> and there is a new one coming out which I'm getting some samples of
[07:10] <eroomde> the jti chipscale antennas are end of life?
[07:10] <UpuWork> well
[07:10] <UpuWork> hang on
[07:11] <UpuWork> http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/611/1575AT54A0010-242312.pdf
[07:11] <ibanezmatt13> I've been looking at some of the CUSF boards and they looks a lot more complicated (GPS antenna side) than I've seen. They use these LNA things whatever they are and stuff like that even with a Sarantel
[07:12] <UpuWork> just use the Taoglas patch for the moment
[07:12] <UpuWork> again in my library
[07:12] <ibanezmatt13> but it's so big :)
[07:12] <eroomde> bigger is better for antennas :)
[07:12] <UpuWork> I've not finalised the design for the new chip antenna
[07:12] <UpuWork> ground plane is more complex
[07:13] <UpuWork> eroomde speaks truth
[07:13] <ibanezmatt13> on the Tag?
[07:13] <UpuWork> eroomde http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/611/1575AT54A0010-242312.pdf
[07:13] <UpuWork> feed is on the side
[07:13] <UpuWork> which is going to make smaller PCB's
[07:13] <eroomde> does that impy the JTIs are EOL?
[07:13] <eroomde> what am i missing?
[07:15] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: On your badger board you used more than just the antenna on the GPS receiving side didn't you? Like inductors and things
[07:15] <UpuWork> I don't know if the existing antennas are eol
[07:15] <eroomde> ah right... please don't say that then!
[07:15] <UpuWork> but that does seem like a direct replacement
[07:15] <UpuWork> and goes GLONASS
[07:15] <UpuWork> I'll test it
[07:15] <eroomde> it's not a direct replacement in that it looks like it needs a different pcb layout
[07:15] <eroomde> so...
[07:15] <UpuWork> so you don't have too
[07:16] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13, yes
[07:16] <UpuWork> bbs
[07:16] <eroomde> i'm totally confused upu
[07:16] <eroomde> first it's EOL but isn't
[07:16] <eroomde> then it's a direct replacement but isn't
[07:16] <eroomde> are you on maleria tablets?
[07:17] <ibanezmatt13> is that necessary eroomde? It made my boards look too simple :)
[07:17] <daveake> Someone tell him that London isn't that far south
[07:17] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13, depends on if you need an active antenna or not
[07:17] <eroomde> if not, probably not
[07:17] <ibanezmatt13> how do I know that? i don't think I do...
[07:17] <eroomde> if you've got other sources of inteference, a saw filter can be useful
[07:18] <eroomde> if the antenna is down the end of a length of coax then you want an active antenna
[07:18] <eroomde> if not then you don't really need it
[07:18] <daveake> e.g. a Pi camera cable especially when the camera is taking a video
[07:18] <ibanezmatt13> unbelievably the rf side of things wasn't disturbed by the pi cam
[07:18] <ibanezmatt13> on my flight
[07:19] <daveake> depends on distance from cable to GPS antenna
[07:19] <eroomde> so the saw filter is just a very tight filter
[07:19] <eroomde> a low noise amplifier is just a transistor circuit with a good transistor
[07:19] <daveake> very close (like, in the head of a fluffy bear) = not good
[07:19] <ibanezmatt13> it should be fine
[07:19] <eroomde> and you want it at the antenna end, to boost the signal from the antenna before it gets degraded by the coax
[07:19] <eroomde> (coaxs add their own noise)
[07:20] <eroomde> and you need to get power to that transistor somehow, without a separate power lead
[07:20] <eroomde> so you can bias the coaxial cable's centre core up to a few V, say, and extract that voltage at the other end to power than transistor
[07:20] <eroomde> the inductors and caps are part of a network called a Bias Tee
[07:20] <eroomde> which does exactly that
[07:21] <UpuWork> sorry Ed
[07:21] <eroomde> so they inject DC into the coax but stop it going into the receiver
[07:21] <UpuWork> its not EOL and its not a direct replacement
[07:21] <UpuWork> afk taking my meds
[07:21] <eroomde> sorry. it's just i've used the jti in a product now so that kind of thing is obviously Big News
[07:23] <Laurenceb_> arggggggg
[07:23] <Laurenceb_> some student has been given access to my server
[07:23] <Laurenceb_> omfg
[07:23] <Laurenceb_> how did this happen
[07:23] <Laurenceb_> entire filesystem is hosed
[07:24] <eroomde> are you not the admin?
[07:24] <Laurenceb_> one of two admins...
[07:24] <Laurenceb_> sigh
[07:24] <Laurenceb_> i have been things to do with my time
[07:25] <eroomde> rebuild from the backup
[07:25] <Laurenceb_> yes...
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[07:26] <Laurenceb_> then test it .. etc etc
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[07:33] <LeoBodnar_> .
[07:33] <LeoBodnar_> mornings!
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[07:34] <UpuWork> Friday ones at that
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[07:34] <LeoBodnar> mornings!
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[07:35] <Laurenceb_> hi LeoBodnar
[07:35] <HixWork> End of the week based greetings
[07:40] <arko> woo!
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[07:40] <HixWork> evenin' Arko
[07:41] <arko> aww up Hix
[07:41] <arko> wass*
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[07:44] <HixWork> heh
[07:44] <HixWork> I see Kraken is racing you to Scotland arko :)
[07:45] <arko> indeed
[07:45] <UpuWork> oh
[07:45] <arko> if all goes as planned i will be drinking scotch with it
[07:45] <UpuWork> linky to Kraken tracker ?
[07:45] <arko> http://track.poseidon.sgsphysics.co.uk/
[07:45] <HixWork> http://track.poseidon.sgsphysics.co.uk/
[07:45] <UpuWork> ta
[07:45] <arko> lol
[07:45] <arko> i like the little whirl it did
[07:45] <arko> that was cool
[07:45] <HixWork> man who have elbow on desk lose linky race
[07:46] <HixWork> vortex of death
[07:46] <UpuWork> nice
[07:46] <UpuWork> quite nice and warm out there
[07:47] <arko> heh yeah
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[07:47] <arko> funny thing, earlier today i was like "who the heck lives on those little islands off the cost of the main land?"
[07:47] <arko> turns out people do.. and it has street view
[07:48] Action: arko is such a typical murican
[07:48] <Laurenceb_> anonymous lives there apparently
[07:49] <Laurenceb_> topiary
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[07:53] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good Morning Folks :-)
[07:57] <ibanezmatt13> I'm looking for a humidity sensor for a PCB; anyone know any?
[07:57] <mfa298> Morning G0TDJ_Steve
[07:57] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hey mfa298 :-)
[07:58] <craag> morning all
[07:58] <x-f> morning
[07:59] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hi Phil and x-f
[07:59] <x-f> hi, Steve
[07:59] <craag> Hi Steve
[07:59] <HixWork> arko http://binged.it/14ddqIV OS maps are waaay better
[07:59] <x-f> ibanezmatt13, you want to measure humidity inside the payload?
[07:59] <craag> HixWork: OS maps! wow
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[08:00] <ibanezmatt13> that would be fine x-f
[08:01] <HixWork> maps is good craag - IGN are better than ours i fear
[08:04] <ibanezmatt13> I'm wondering whether it's better to use the BM085 temp and pressure chip or have two separate chips for each. Surely the former makes sense?
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[08:05] <daveake> bmp is a good chip
[08:05] <daveake> Where is the temperature you're trying to measure? i/e/ inside or outside?
[08:05] <ibanezmatt13> inside
[08:05] <daveake> You can also get the cpu temperature easily
[08:06] <ibanezmatt13> Yea, I just need the humidity, temp and pressure inside the box
[08:06] <ibanezmatt13> I'm looking for the best way to do it
[08:06] <daveake> I've done Pi flights with 3 sensors - CPU, inside (bmp), outside (DS)
[08:06] <ibanezmatt13> is the bmp085 hard to calibrate?
[08:07] <UpuWork> there is some code out there that seems to do it
[08:07] <daveake> cut and paste job frankly
[08:07] <daveake> No point re-doing that as it'll be hard work
[08:07] Nick change: KipK_away -> Kipkool
[08:08] <ibanezmatt13> right, so I could use the bmp085 and another i2c humidy chip?
[08:08] <ibanezmatt13> humidity*
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[08:12] <ibanezmatt13> So I guess it's good practice to shove a 0.1uF on one of these sensor chips
[08:17] <ibanezmatt13> breakfast
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[08:21] <SpeedEvil> Every single component should have 0.1uF across it.
[08:21] <SpeedEvil> Especially the balloon.
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[08:30] <HixWork> http://www.adafruit.com/datasheets/BMP085_DataSheet_Rev.1.0_01July2008.pdf
[08:30] <HixWork> oh he left
[08:30] <x-f> right
[08:31] <x-f> does anybody know what is the name for this antenna type? - https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/249780_352700324815832_2139250903_n.jpg
[08:32] <Darkside> hrm
[08:32] <Darkside> some kind of cloverleav
[08:32] <Darkside> cloverleaf*
[08:32] <Darkside> theres many variations on that design
[08:33] <x-f> thanks, Darkside
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[08:45] <ibanezmatt13> I'm a little confused as to how I should pull the i2c lines up to VCC here, or if I even need to: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z56nqrgiwkjwz5r/i2c.png
[08:45] <ibanezmatt13> There's a TMP102 and some sort of Si12... humidity chip
[08:48] <daveake> Pi has its own pullups
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[08:48] <ibanezmatt13> ATMEGA328?
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[08:49] <daveake> The datasheet is your friend
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> fair point
[08:50] <LeoBodnar> RTFD
[08:50] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[08:50] <daveake> Random people on the internet have been known to be wrong, you see, so it's good to get into the habit of checking stuff yourself
[08:50] <LeoBodnar> And then read errata to the datasheet
[08:50] <daveake> yup :p
[08:50] <LeoBodnar> RTFE
[08:53] <ibanezmatt13> ok so it says here that the pins I'm interested in have internal pull up resistors. Cool
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[08:55] <mfa298> you may need to enable the pull up resitors on the pi, but whichever library you're using should have an easy way to do that
[08:57] <ibanezmatt13> I'm making a PCB with an ATMEGA328 mfa298
[08:58] <HixWork> daveake have people on the internet really been wrong? did they not reference wikipedia first or something ;)
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[09:00] <ibanezmatt13> I "think" this may be ok: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n5bb3973go1144/new.png
[09:00] <mfa298> i think the same applies on the atmega.
[09:01] <mfa298> for some reason i thought you were talking about the pi
[09:01] <ibanezmatt13> would it be worth shoving some pullups in anyway mfa298 ?
[09:01] <daveake> no
[09:01] <ibanezmatt13> ok :)
[09:02] <daveake> The chip has them for that precise reason
[09:03] <mfa298> I think you only need the external pullups in a few special cases. To handle things like the atmega starting up when the pins havnt been configured
[09:04] <ibanezmatt13> ah right, ok
[09:04] <ibanezmatt13> thanks
[09:04] <zyp> the size of i2c pullups should be scaled for the bus impedance, which depends on how long cables and how many slaves you connect and so on
[09:04] <zyp> the built in pullups are probably not very strong
[09:05] <ibanezmatt13> I've got two little chips pretty close to the chip on the i2c line. The internals might be ok
[09:05] <zyp> likely
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[09:05] <zyp> I tend to put pads for pullups on the boards I design anyway, so I can mount them later if required
[09:06] <ibanezmatt13> So can could I put pullups on even though they are already there?
[09:06] <mfa298> if you think there might be a need for external pullups you could always put pads in but not populate them
[09:06] <ibanezmatt13> I'll do that just in case. I'm not sure what to expect
[09:07] <daveake> Indeed, and if it's a large board or you're taking the i2c bus off the board, then do it
[09:07] <daveake> But a teeny board I wouldn't bother
[09:07] <ibanezmatt13> Hmm, I might not bother then. Saves space and avoids confusion
[09:08] <ibanezmatt13> If it was bigger or I had more i2c devices I'd certainly put the pads in
[09:08] <eroomde> have come in half way through
[09:08] <eroomde> but i'd always put pullups on i2c
[09:09] <eroomde> the deicsion as a function of trace length for me wouldbe whether or not to have series resistors (eg 49R)
[09:10] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: If I did put pullups on, would 10k be ok?
[09:10] <eroomde> yup
[09:10] <Darkside> isnt th standard 4.7k?
[09:10] <eroomde> possibly
[09:10] <eroomde> no idea
[09:10] <zyp> Darkside, there's no standard, it all depends on bus capacitance
[09:10] <Darkside> ok
[09:11] <Darkside> i've just seen 4.7k used a lot
[09:11] <eroomde> that would make physical sense
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[09:12] <HixWork> http://tronixstuff.com/2010/10/20/tutorial-arduino-and-the-i2c-bus/ was pretty helpful i thought
[09:13] <eroomde> didn't realise Without You was a harry neillson song
[09:13] <eroomde> gave mariah too much credit
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[09:15] <eroomde> for large bus capacitances the pullup resistors want to be replaced with current sources
[09:15] <eroomde> at that point i think i'd pick a different protocol
[09:15] <Babs> eroomde - i will just leave this here http://i.imgur.com/otxNRR7.jpg
[09:16] <eroomde> that's pretty cool
[09:16] <HixWork> buncefield? ;)
[09:16] <Babs> not as sharp edged as I would have imagined, but thats refraction of light for you
[09:17] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: how is this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n5bb3973go1144/new.png
[09:18] <eroomde> perfec
[09:18] <ibanezmatt13> nice
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[09:19] <WillTablet> Morning eroomde
[09:20] <eroomde> morn
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[09:25] <LeoBodnar> daveake: are you giving a talk on pies at RSGB convention or is it somebody else?
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[09:33] <HixWork> will the dessert at the conf be a paspberry pie by any chance?
[09:34] <Laurenceb> work depresses me
[09:35] <Laurenceb> just had argument with boss, apparently organising a meeting with the managing director and "chief technology officer" of Smith and Nephew was a waste of my time
[09:35] <Laurenceb> and he achieved more in 5 minutes by ordering a reprap than id achieved in several hours
[09:36] <Laurenceb> laugh/cry
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[09:40] <Laurenceb> sometimes i need to quote that Lewis Page guy from the register
[09:40] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/02/household_3d_printer_could_pay_for_itself_in_just_four_months/
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[09:51] <malgar> I would launch in May 2014 from northern italy. Where are the jet streams in May? usually?
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[09:55] <steve_2e0vet_at_> does anyone know where i can download or even print screen a 1:50,000 map for the NOTAM document
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[09:56] <edmoore> streetmap.co.uk
[09:56] <edmoore> malgar, they're usually north of you then and less trong from may-oct
[09:56] <edmoore> but they have been being weird in the last two years
[09:56] <mattbrejza> a library should have the map, i originally tried to use the online map but for some reason i decided against
[09:56] Nick change: Piet0r_ -> Piet0r
[10:00] <HixWork> steve_2e0vet_at_ maps.bing.co.uk allow you to view OS at 1:50,000
[10:01] <HixWork> or if you give me lat/lon I can do you a pdf at A4
[10:03] <mattbrejza> oo fancy (bing)
[10:03] <mattbrejza> doesnt tell you what scale youre looking at though
[10:05] <edmoore> you can tell from the map colours
[10:06] <edmoore> didn't realise bing did that
[10:06] <edmoore> that's good
[10:06] <steve_2e0vet_at_> managed with streetmap.co.uk just trying to work out grid ref and grid letters
[10:06] <edmoore> wonder if they'll allow crawlers
[10:06] <mattbrejza> would be nice if sn.us had a OS map layer
[10:09] <HixWork> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg427610.aspx
[10:11] <mattbrejza> what i would really like is if they also had historic OS maps
[10:13] <HixWork> steve_2e0vet_at_ http://www.getamap.ordnancesurveyleisure.co.uk/ gives you the grid ref easily
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[10:20] <HixWork> mattbrejza http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/maps/
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[10:40] <DL7AD> hey good morning
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[10:51] <keydash> hello
[10:51] <mfa298> hello keydash
[10:52] <keydash> i'm studying a project
[10:52] <keydash> to receive telemetry from a high altitude balloon
[10:52] <keydash> i'm noob is this matter so, googling i came here xD
[10:52] <mfa298> this is a good place to ask questions.
[10:52] <keydash> i'm glad to read that
[10:52] <mfa298> the ukhas wiki has a lot of good information as well
[10:53] <keydash> yeah
[10:53] <keydash> as far as i read
[10:53] <keydash> with a dongle
[10:53] <keydash> i can receive telemetry, right?
[10:53] <keydash> the cheapest way of course
[10:53] <mfa298> it potentially depends on what balloon you're trying to get telemetry from.
[10:54] <keydash> one homemade
[10:54] <mfa298> but the realtek dongles (rtl-sdr) are the cheapest - although not always the best
[10:54] <keydash> I suppose
[10:54] <cm13g09> mfa298: as I've found out.... right?
[10:55] <cm13g09> I'm quite experienced at not getting telemetry via RTL-SDR :P
[10:55] <keydash> well just to begin in the subject
[10:56] <mfa298> I have got telemetry with an rtl-sdr but a decent HAM radio or a better SDR (like the funcube dongle) makes quite a difference.
[10:56] <keydash> i want to send via a 430mhz from the balloon telemetry to the dongle
[10:56] <keydash> i don't want to start the house from the roof
[10:56] <keydash> xD
[10:57] <mfa298> for testing the cheap dongles are fine and some people have used them for flights.
[10:57] <keydash> yeah
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[10:57] <mfa298> if you're relying on the cheap dongles you may also want to get the habamp http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=72_73&product_id=83
[10:57] <keydash> once I''ve learned more, maybe i'll buy better stuff
[10:58] <keydash> by rtty on the 430mhz i can telemetry with the dongle then?
[10:58] <keydash> even it is from a near distance
[10:58] <mfa298> good recievers like the FT-790, FT-817 may cost more 2nd hand but they keep their value. FT817's on ebay are still a similar price to when I got mine 5 years ago
[10:59] <keydash> just to begin on the telemetry subject
[10:59] <Willdude123> I've just realized I've been saying Flight Simulator X wrong for around 3 years.
[10:59] <Willdude123> It's 10, not X apparently.
[10:59] <mfa298> the cheap dongle will work for recieving rtty it just won't get the really weak signals if it's further away.
[11:00] <keydash> what the range more or less?
[11:01] <mfa298> can depends a lot on what's around and how good your antenna is.
[11:01] <keydash> ok
[11:02] <keydash> when i receive it i'll do some practises
[11:02] <mfa298> if it's a clear path to the balloon it should work with a reasonable antenna, if there are things in the way (like when it's coming down to land) the extra sensitivity of something like the funcube/HAM radio can help.
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[11:03] <keydash> ok
[11:03] <keydash> thanks for your help mfa298
[11:03] <keydash> i'll be back once i'll start to work
[11:03] <mfa298> for early experimenting the rtl dongles are fine.
[11:03] <keydash> now i'm working so, i've got to go
[11:03] <keydash> xD
[11:03] <mfa298> no problems with the help
[11:03] <keydash> well, for the landing i can use a gps
[11:04] <keydash> gsm
[11:04] <mfa298> gsm has been known to fail often
[11:04] <keydash> that's why i want to try rtl
[11:04] <mfa298> payloads have a habit of landing where there's no signal
[11:04] <keydash> xD
[11:04] <keydash> ok
[11:05] <mfa298> of the people who've used gsm as a backup it's estimated it's worked less than 50% of the time
[11:05] <keydash> i'll keep asking surely, so I'll be back
[11:05] <keydash> thanks again
[11:05] <keydash> and see ya
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[11:19] <Laurenceb> http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=epic
[11:19] <Laurenceb> genius
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> epic, even.
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[11:39] <cm13g09> yay for parcels coming from china....
[11:40] <cm13g09> last seen yesterday at Shanghai Pudong International Airport
[11:41] <LeoBodnar_> This is ace! (why not listed on "cool" table?)
[11:42] <LeoBodnar_> Or "Mega!"
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[11:56] <HixWork> that was the winningest page ever!!!
[11:56] <HixWork> ;p
[11:59] <Willdude123> Laurenceb TalkTalk blocks it as Suicide and Self Harm
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[12:00] <mattbrejza> i seem to remember you could get around the TT block by proxing via google translate
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[12:24] <HixWork> google cache normally works too - not that I've ever tried that at work ;D
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[12:31] <edmoore> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-AGILENT-8596E-PORTABLE-SPECTRUM-ANALYZER-9-kHz-to-12-8-GHz-/380701891831?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item58a399dcf7
[12:31] <edmoore> super tempted
[12:32] <mattbrejza> "portable"
[12:34] <edmoore> it is
[12:34] <edmoore> relatively speaking
[12:34] <edmoore> it's an amazing price
[12:34] <edmoore> if fixable
[12:34] <mattbrejza> yea
[12:34] <mattbrejza> i guess if it doesnt require two people to lift it onto a trolley its portable (at least for its age)
[12:34] <edmoore> i think these things often die when people inject signals with DC components up its jacksie
[12:34] <edmoore> that would be a moderately doable fix
[12:35] <mattbrejza> lets see if w ecan find a service manual
[12:37] <mattbrejza> http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/08590-90316.pdf?&cc=GB&lc=eng
[12:37] <mattbrejza> search for A7
[12:41] <mattbrejza> A7 doesnt seem to be anything critically RF
[12:41] <mattbrejza> just some low speed DACs
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[13:07] Action: HixWork senses Ed hovering over the left mouse button with a sweaty palm, carefully observing the countdown and guessing the latency of a form post
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[13:08] <Randomskk> omg trying to build gnuradio and all the various bits and pieces that plug into it is a nightmare
[13:09] <edmoore> yep!
[13:09] <HixWork> is he going to click....
[13:10] <edmoore> nope
[13:10] <HixWork> 82-0
[13:10] <edmoore> i think i'll just wait for the one at work
[13:10] <HixWork> 820
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[13:11] <edmoore> i'm shooting for a R&S ZVL
[13:13] <mattbrejza> for gps stuff?
[13:15] Action: cm13g09 wonders whether chrisstubbs is going to postpone tomorrow morning's Pico....
[13:16] <cm13g09> predictions are looking very very wet!
[13:16] <edmoore> for all sorts
[13:16] <edmoore> gps stuff is sadly only about 5% of what i am working on by time atm
[13:17] <edmoore> wish it were more as it's quite interesting
[13:17] <edmoore> but it's all quite interesting
[13:17] <mattbrejza> also i would question if it was worth it to buy someting that expensive for one project
[13:18] <edmoore> heh, you're gonna have your eyes opened when you get into industry
[13:19] <edmoore> $25k is beneath the threshold where you'd have to ask permission of your line manager in a lot of BigCo's
[13:21] <mattbrejza> hmm
[13:23] <edmoore> i have friends in consultancies who just buy a rack of agilent kit new per project
[13:23] <edmoore> then sell it or put it into storage at the end
[13:25] <mattbrejza> surely you would check the stock room first...
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[13:25] <mattbrejza> when i was doing rf stuff and needed to find equipment i had to wonder around the building looking to see who had hoarded all the equipment
[13:26] <mattbrejza> not that they would spend 100k for a summer project
[13:27] <edmoore> often not!
[13:27] <edmoore> customers are rich, you want everything with a cal certificate, etc
[13:28] <edmoore> this is not the case for me i should add. i don;t work at a bigco
[13:28] <mattbrejza> this wasnt a massive company
[13:28] <mattbrejza> everything was in cal though
[13:28] <edmoore> but out there in the world, spending £25k on a bit of equipment as part of an engineering project would be pocket change
[13:29] <mattbrejza> shame they cant pay the engineers more :P
[13:29] <edmoore> look at this for example
[13:29] <edmoore> http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-836785-pn-6624A/system-power-supply-40w-4-outputs?&cc=GB&lc=eng
[13:29] <edmoore> £7k for just 7V/5A and 20V/2A
[13:30] <edmoore> like almost any bench supply
[13:30] <edmoore> it's not designed for humans to buy, it's designed for enterprise to buy
[13:30] <edmoore> it's designed to be put in a 19" rack and stay there for ages just doing whatever it was first set to do
[13:30] <mattbrejza> yea the keypad looks horrible for every day use
[13:31] <mattbrejza> also gpib...
[13:31] <edmoore> the test engineer will just spec a couple of them and some other agilent goddies and put them all in a big rack designed around the project and send the customer the bill
[13:31] <mattbrejza> why does that still exist
[13:31] <edmoore> it's a bit odd isn't it
[13:31] <edmoore> just heritage
[13:31] <mattbrejza> 60s tech
[13:31] <mattbrejza> the cables are insane
[13:32] <edmoore> but i mean, good test equipment should last 40 years
[13:32] <edmoore> it's not like pc peripherals which are instantly obsolete
[13:32] <mattbrejza> yea the uni gives away the old equipment
[13:32] <mattbrejza> and its still perfectly fine
[13:32] <edmoore> so everything takes longer to die, and they keep it to be compatible with still-perfectly-good equipment
[13:32] <mattbrejza> old hameg 20MHz analogoue scope, still fine
[13:32] <mattbrejza> old psu, still fine
[13:32] <edmoore> i worry about all these windows 7 bits of test equipment with HDDs
[13:32] <edmoore> that everything seems to run now
[13:33] <mattbrejza> ive used one running windows nt 4 or something
[13:33] <mattbrejza> that was still going strong
[13:33] <edmoore> my go-to scope is my HP465B I have
[13:33] <edmoore> probably the best scope i have
[13:33] <edmoore> apart from lack or storage, it's superb
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[13:33] <edmoore> jim williams was suing valve scopes until he died
[13:34] <edmoore> er Tek 465B
[13:34] <edmoore> not HP sorry
[13:34] <mattbrejza> im not massively keen on the windows based things
[13:34] <mattbrejza> the ui is offen a bit shit
[13:35] <mattbrejza> you dont really want to use a mouse for each bit of lab gear
[13:35] <mattbrejza> new stuff is touch screen, but even so
[13:35] <edmoore> i hate lab equipment having a mouse
[13:35] <edmoore> awful
[13:35] <edmoore> i want nice buttons and knobs
[13:35] <mattbrejza> you tend to need to have a mouse spare just in case
[13:35] <edmoore> that all click positively or rotate smoothly
[13:36] <mattbrejza> yep
[13:37] <mattbrejza> the most interesting thing i came across was a phase noise analyser
[13:37] <mattbrejza> depending on what you wanted to do you had to rewire the coax on the front which connected various submodules
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[13:38] <edmoore> that sounds like a really useful it of kit
[13:38] <mattbrejza> i cant remember what it was called or anything
[13:39] <mattbrejza> but could do silly small frequency steps away from the carrier
[13:39] <edmoore> oh that's been causing me gried recently
[13:40] <edmoore> trying to get two oscillators very close to each other without locking together
[13:40] <mattbrejza> hmm :/
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[13:43] <edmoore> injection locking
[13:43] <edmoore> is the phrase i was hunting for in my head just then
[13:44] <mattbrejza> never heard of that before
[13:46] <edmoore> it's a pest
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[14:01] <LeoBodnar_> It's not "just like any bench power supply" it's basically a scope+high precision current porbe+bench power supply
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[14:02] <edmoore> number10, MOTD for you
[14:02] <edmoore> suspect this'll be a new one
[14:02] <number10> ok
[14:03] <edmoore> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eKUlwjsyPI
[14:03] <number10> ta
[14:06] <number10> thats a new one... never heard russian jazz
[14:06] <edmoore> yeah. bit of a curiosity
[14:07] <Darkside> my MOTD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnMH4vnBHag
[14:07] <LeoBodnar_> Most good Russian jazzmen of mid-century ended up in gulags.
[14:08] <edmoore> pletnev does seem a bit eccentric
[14:08] <LeoBodnar_> Get this one, £1700 new. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AGILENT-HP-6632B-Bench-DC-Power-Supply-0-20VOLT-5-AMP-Programmable-/350858191596?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item51b0c722ec
[14:08] <edmoore> yeah they sell for peanuts those oens
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[14:08] <edmoore> ones
[14:09] <LeoBodnar_> 2.5uA current sensing resolution
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[14:09] <LeoBodnar_> Only because some production places were using 1000s for production testing.
[14:09] <edmoore> fairly easy mod to put terminals on the front too
[14:09] <LeoBodnar_> And we all know what happened to some production places.
[14:10] <Darkside> mmmm
[14:10] <edmoore> 20V is a bit low though
[14:10] <edmoore> for what i often want to do
[14:10] <Darkside> the company that offered me a job a few years back recently fired about 60 people
[14:10] <LeoBodnar_> Get two
[14:10] <LeoBodnar_> THey support series and parallel connections
[14:10] <ibanezmatt13> The line "SoftwareSerial mySerial(4, 5);" when the Ublox is connected to hardware serial pins, does that refer to the ICSP header?
[14:11] <Darkside> depnds on the chip
[14:11] <ibanezmatt13> ATMEGA328
[14:11] <ibanezmatt13> I'm looking at the example code on the Wiki and I wondered what it was
[14:11] <Darkside> http://arduino.cc/en/Hacking/PinMapping168
[14:11] <Darkside> hrm
[14:11] <Darkside> nah, it doesnt
[14:12] <Darkside> the ISP header is on pins 11, 12, 13 on those
[14:12] <ibanezmatt13> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox6
[14:12] <ibanezmatt13> It says you must use a serial development module, whatever that may be. I think it's one of those FTDI things
[14:13] <ibanezmatt13> Must I create a separate header for FTDI as well as my ICSP>
[14:14] <edmoore> what i like about pletnev is there's such an economy of movement. completely decoupled from the sound he produces
[14:14] <Darkside> that test sscript is passing data from a software serial port through to the hardware serial, which is hooked to the pc
[14:14] <Darkside> ibanezmatt13: you shouldnt need to
[14:14] <Darkside> i ended up using the RTTY output for debugging :P
[14:15] <ibanezmatt13> So if I want to see all the print statements I need a separate header for and FTDI cable?
[14:15] <Darkside> or you just send them out via RTTY
[14:16] <ibanezmatt13> hmm, I think for debugging I'd rather see them in the serial monitor on my PC without affecting the RTTY transmission
[14:16] <Darkside> then put an FTDI hader on your board
[14:16] <Darkside> it just takes up more space
[14:16] <Darkside> or you could do software serial on the ISP pins
[14:16] <Darkside> software serial is fine for debug output
[14:16] <Darkside> not for much else though
[14:17] <ibanezmatt13> That's what I was thinking
[14:17] <Darkside> that'd work fine im sure
[14:17] <Darkside> pin 11 or 12
[14:17] <ibanezmatt13> I wondered if I could get software serial through the ICSP header but then I wondered whether I'd be able to see it in the serial monitor from my programmer?
[14:17] <Darkside> nah
[14:17] <Darkside> the ISP wont do that
[14:18] <ibanezmatt13> hmm, so generally for debugging you just guess and if its not working you guess what's wrong?
[14:18] <Darkside> lol
[14:18] <Darkside> depends
[14:19] <Darkside> it depends what outputs i have on the chip
[14:19] <ibanezmatt13> Nah I don't like that. I want to see my print statements in the serial monitor
[14:19] <Darkside> pff
[14:19] <Darkside> then you'll nd an FTDI adaptor or somthin
[14:19] <Darkside> and unplug it all the time
[14:19] <Darkside> to program
[14:19] <mattbrejza> its a shame the avr cant be debugged (properly) thru ISP like almost every other micro
[14:19] <Darkside> i thought it could?
[14:20] <Darkside> just not with the arduino id
[14:20] <Darkside> ide*
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[14:20] <ibanezmatt13> The thing is, I've got SD card sockets, all sorts of i2c sensors and I just don't think I'll be able to guess why its not working when it fails :/
[14:20] <Darkside> ibanezmatt13: the RTTY output is basically a serial output
[14:20] <mattbrejza> i thought you had to use debugwire (which uses the reset pin)
[14:20] <Darkside> i often used that
[14:20] <mattbrejza> and you need the dragon or similar
[14:20] <Darkside> mattbrejza: yeah i think so
[14:20] <Darkside> im not sure though
[14:21] <ibanezmatt13> So it looks like I need an FTDI header then...
[14:21] <Darkside> ibanezmatt13: or use the RTTY output :P
[14:21] <Darkside> works like a charm
[14:21] <ibanezmatt13> but the ubx is on it
[14:21] <Darkside> eh?
[14:21] <ibanezmatt13> ublox
[14:21] <Darkside> you have a RTTY transmitter, right?
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[14:22] <Darkside> a NTX2 or something?
[14:22] <ibanezmatt13> yes
[14:22] <ibanezmatt13> oh
[14:22] <ibanezmatt13> right
[14:22] <Darkside> instead of dumping your debug strings out via serial, dump them out there
[14:22] <Darkside> and look at the output in fldigi
[14:22] <Darkside> i used to do that all the time
[14:22] <Darkside> my payloads still output stuff during bootup, so if something fails, i know where
[14:22] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah I guess I could do that
[14:22] <mfa298> for debugging comms between the uP and other chips a logic analyser might be more use than a serial monitor. That way you can see what the signals are like - my limited AVR experimentation the real issues were timing rather than sending the wrong stuff
[14:23] <Darkside> mfa298: yes, this is true
[14:23] <Darkside> I2C comms in particular
[14:23] <Darkside> but most of it should have existing libraries
[14:23] <Darkside> so shouldn;'t be too hard to get going
[14:23] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I'll do that then
[14:23] <mfa298> you could also add some status leds that you can use to indicate what's happening
[14:23] <ibanezmatt13> I've added a few of those
[14:24] <ibanezmatt13> I don't even know where to begin writing this code :P
[14:24] <ibanezmatt13> I guess the wiki example is enough to build on
[14:24] <mfa298> having just bought a saleae I can say it's be best toy I've bought in a while :D
[14:24] <mattbrejza> creating a config.h with #define LED_PIN = 2 is a good start
[14:25] <number10> I enjoyed listening to that eroomde - thanks
[14:25] <mfa298> as with all code start simple and build it up, get one bit working at a time
[14:25] <mfa298> and have a plan!
[14:25] <LeoBodnar_> A_!M1at!!
[14:25] <LeoBodnar_> "Abstract" after running through NASA's OCR
[14:27] <edmoore> a nice bag of Lemo M jamnut connectors just arrived
[14:27] <edmoore> mfa298, it's great isn't it?
[14:27] <edmoore> saved my bacon so so often
[14:27] <edmoore> useful for actual electronics
[14:28] <edmoore> but also useful when you suspect the bug is from the linux serial port not doing deterministic things (suprisingly often the case!)
[14:28] <mfa298> I remember spending ages trying to get an LCD to work on an AVR - because the timing was off, the LA would have helped so much for that. Now playing with gpio on the Pi and I can see how well it's working
[14:29] <cm13g09> mfa298: sounds like you're having more fun than myself (and Clayton :P )
[14:29] <edmoore> it's really the jazz
[14:29] <mfa298> Not played with the Pi code for a couple of days, I need to work out how to fit the next bits in.
[14:29] <edmoore> the new scope has a 16ch LA too
[14:30] <edmoore> very useful for mixed signal analysis
[14:30] <edmoore> helped me find a problem somewhere between PC and DDS the other day
[14:30] <Babs> edmoore - the width of this 2017. its a bit
[14:31] <Babs> big
[14:31] <edmoore> ?
[14:31] <Babs> (2017 eclipse)
[14:31] <edmoore> oh
[14:31] <Babs> 144km
[14:31] <edmoore> as in you'll just get a big patch of black?
[14:31] <edmoore> 144 is not too bad
[14:31] <Babs> 144 is good for a total eclipse
[14:31] <Babs> just big in absolute terms
[14:32] <mfa298> scope or VNA is probably the next big toy to buy although I probably need some more space first.
[14:33] <LeoBodnar_> edmoore: I remember having a weird problem with mixed digital channels but I can't remember which one. Do you use them extensively?
[14:33] <edmoore> nope
[14:33] <edmoore> i often just use the LA
[14:33] <edmoore> but whe it specifically is a mixed in nature problem, i use the scope
[14:34] <edmoore> eg to measure settling time for a DAC after a write over SPI
[14:34] <LeoBodnar_> I remember it had something to do with levels and it bitten me by the backside
[14:36] <ibanezmatt13> Do AVRs need an arduino bootloader on to run arduino sketches?
[14:36] <mattbrejza> no
[14:36] <edmoore> technically probably not but yes for most practical purposes
[14:37] <Babs> at 35km looking straight down, you would need a 128 degree viewing angle to get the whole thing in
[14:37] <ibanezmatt13> thanks
[14:37] <edmoore> Babs, what about from the side from 100km away?
[14:37] <edmoore> ibanezmatt13, do you have a programmer?
[14:37] <Babs> which suggests
[14:37] <ibanezmatt13> yes eroomde
[14:37] <LeoBodnar_> I remember that I have only understood what was happening after monitoring digital channels with an analogue one
[14:38] <Babs> exactly edmoore - you have to ensure you are drifting away from it at some point
[14:38] <LeoBodnar_> never mind
[14:38] <Babs> as in not away from the target, just that you ensure you are that far from the path at some point
[14:38] <edmoore> yes the LA won't show you if the digital channel's waveform is being screwey
[14:38] <edmoore> eg for i2c it often goes a bit shitty
[14:38] <edmoore> and needs some analogue investigation
[14:39] <cm13g09> zeusbot: seen chrisstubbs
[14:39] Action: cm13g09 fails at asking the bot....
[14:40] <LeoBodnar_> It was high speed at a round 100mb/s - I think it was a reflection on a digital probe coming back and combining with the main pulse and going over the threshold. So I couldn't see the pulse on its own but only when reflected signal came back
[14:41] <LeoBodnar_> I2C is slow like continental drift
[14:48] <Babs> edmoore -71 degree field of view to get the whole shadow in at ground level from one side to the other, 69.4 degree to get the whole thing in from one side to the other. Canon Ixus has a 100 degree field of view. So on that basis you need to be at least 100km away from it when at the right height.
[14:48] <Babs> to give a nice margin either side.
[14:49] <Babs> and be able to see at least 150km from the camera to capture a circle
[14:49] <Babs> at least after 4 years work it won't be weather dependent then. Oh.
[14:50] <Babs> Reread - 71 degree field of view to get the whole shadow in at ground level from one side to the other, 69.4 degree to get the whole thing in from one side to the other when at 30km. Canon Ixus has a 100 degree field of view. So on that basis you need to be at least 100km away from it when at the right height.
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[14:52] <LeoBodnar_> Is anybody flying any foil balloons soonish?
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[14:55] <edmoore> heh, cam grads now have jstor access
[14:55] <edmoore> super mega plus
[14:58] <Laurenceb> nice
[15:02] <LeoBodnar_> What is He migration rate through latex?
[15:04] <edmoore> shame jstor isn't so good for nerdy journals
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar_: Damn, i looked this up ages ago.
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar_: IIRC 'quite large'
[15:05] <LeoBodnar_> Increases with temperature and partial pressure as usual?
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar_: a latex party balloon is mostly deflated after a week
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> that should give you a starting point
[15:06] <LeoBodnar_> Yeah, I can weigh it and deduce wall thickness and partial pressure (~atm)
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[15:08] <Randomskk> oh my god gnuradio is so stressful
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> iAlso - you know there are solutions to reduce helium loss?
[15:08] <Randomskk> nothing is bloody working
[15:09] <edmoore> :)
[15:09] <edmoore> got it working with other hardware before?
[15:09] <Randomskk> I once got it working with rtl sdr
[15:09] <Randomskk> which is the entire problem
[15:09] <Randomskk> because now I've got an outdated gnuradio from that
[15:09] <Randomskk> and the new one is required for this
[15:09] <Randomskk> and oh god everything is a horrible mess and I hate all software
[15:10] <Randomskk> I did in theory get things working eventually - the osmocom spectrum scope worked and I could see it pick up my ic7k, and the osmocom siggen worked and I could hear it on my 7k
[15:10] <Randomskk> but couldn't get anything gnuradio working with it properly and all sorts of stupid shit errors and none of them are on google
[15:10] <Randomskk> so eventually nuked system gnuradio and reinstalled from new source. but now it's missing blocks that all the example GRCs I can find need.
[15:11] <edmoore> did you use The Script to install the first time?
[15:11] <Randomskk> yea
[15:12] <Randomskk> like, with rtl sdr
[15:12] <Randomskk> I don't get why this has to be such a mess. ugh.
[15:12] <Randomskk> and of course it has to interact with linux audio which for some reason now brings in a whole new world of hurt (thanks portaudio)
[15:12] <Laurenceb> ask dongs from ##stm32 for help
[15:13] <edmoore> so the ubloxs can successfully state that they're being jammed
[15:13] <edmoore> but can still keep lock for a bit
[15:14] <Randomskk> also my cute little SMA antennas are RP-SMA
[15:14] <Laurenceb> interesting
[15:14] <Randomskk> ._.
[15:14] <Randomskk> but it's ok I cut a small piece of wire and stuck it inside
[15:14] <Randomskk> >:D
[15:14] <mattbrejza> eww
[15:14] <mattbrejza> remind me to keep you away from any expensive RF stuff i might own in the future
[15:14] <edmoore> i'm just cracking up the power from -50dbM waiting for it to die
[15:14] <Laurenceb> eeeek
[15:15] <edmoore> so it detected the jamming at -70dbm
[15:15] <Laurenceb> decibel megawatts?
[15:15] <edmoore> and has lost lock/pdop-quality at -30dbm
[15:15] <Laurenceb> you have a simulator?
[15:15] <edmoore> just using a siggen
[15:15] <Laurenceb> ah
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[15:15] <edmoore> although in theory i sort of have a simulator
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[15:17] <edmoore> so there's about 40dB of margin there
[15:17] <edmoore> which is useful
[15:17] <Laurenceb> is the CW jamming?
[15:18] <mattbrejza> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZkAP-CQlhA
[15:18] <edmoore> yes this is just cw
[15:18] <edmoore> now trying swept
[15:19] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about sweep frequencies of 1024hz
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> err
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> Or do i mean 1000.
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> i think i mean 1000.
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[15:22] <cm13g09> evening chrisstubbs
[15:23] <chrisstubbs> hi
[15:23] <cm13g09> tomorrow looks a little on the damp side :P
[15:23] <chrisstubbs> Yeah going to have to do it some other time
[15:23] <LeoBodnar_> For ideal gas balloon I got Diffusion ~ Radius * Temperature
[15:24] <cm13g09> never mind :P
[15:24] <cm13g09> I have a long list of things I should be doing...
[15:25] <LeoBodnar_> Randomskk: what are they? HiFlo(R)(TM)(C) ?
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[15:26] <LeoBodnar_> So diffusion rate increases with altitude in standard atm
[15:26] <Randomskk> LeoBodnar_: sorry?
[15:26] <LeoBodnar_> Reducing diffusion rate
[15:26] <LeoBodnar_> Sorry Randomskk
[15:26] <LeoBodnar_> SpeedEvil: what are they?
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar_: i dunno - it's some sort of liquid you swirel round inside the balloon - or maybe wipe onto the balloon - I'm unsure
[15:27] <LeoBodnar_> HiFlo?
[15:29] <LeoBodnar_> How does Bob Marley likes his GPS?
[15:29] <LeoBodnar_> *like
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> in trenchtown?
[15:30] <edmoore> think we've made every bob marley related joke when discussing emi
[15:35] <fsphil> he has no position on the matter
[15:40] <Randomskk> yay
[15:40] <Randomskk> i made a gnuradio flowchart
[15:40] <Randomskk> that receives nbfm
[15:40] <Randomskk> and when i transmit on my icom
[15:40] <mattbrejza> have a cookie
[15:40] <Randomskk> i can hear myself
[15:40] <Randomskk> o/
[15:41] <Randomskk> despite the antennas on the bladerf being 2.4GHz and RP-SMA with a bit of wire jammed in there >.>
[15:42] <Randomskk> now the trick is to go the other way and transmit
[15:43] <LeoBodnar_> If nobody on here knows He/latex diffusion rate then humanity has no future :-\ We are overrun by arduinos
[15:43] <Randomskk> lol
[15:43] <edmoore> no idea i'm afriad
[15:44] <edmoore> inflate one and leave it overnight with a thing logging lift
[15:44] <edmoore> never tried floating so never measured it
[15:44] <Laurenceb> try scholar
[15:44] <Laurenceb> wait no
[15:44] <Laurenceb> try engineering toolbox
[15:45] <Laurenceb> id imagine something of order 4x10^-9
[15:45] <LeoBodnar_> Natural rubbers are used in o-rings, maybe there...
[15:47] <LeoBodnar_> Does mass transfer rate double for each 7-10 degrees increase in temperature like other chemical reactions or is it energy dependent (~linear)?
[15:47] <Laurenceb> its not going to change much
[15:47] <Laurenceb> certainly not those sort of rates
[15:47] <Laurenceb> of change
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[15:48] <Laurenceb> http://claudiomelo.paginas.ufsc.br/files/2010/07/1276464503Apendice-Mills.pdf
[15:48] <Laurenceb> argg
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[15:49] <Laurenceb> i hate it when people swap between permeability and diffusivity
[15:49] <Laurenceb> anyways, page7
[15:49] <LeoBodnar_> I have a table with He through Pyrex and Nitrogen through Latex rates - grrrr.
[15:51] <Laurenceb> need to apply the Darcy equation to those coefficients
[15:51] <LeoBodnar_> Sorted, thanks Laurenceb
[15:51] <Laurenceb> unrelated to Jane Austin
[15:52] <Laurenceb> id hazard a guess of 10^-10 for latex
[15:52] <Laurenceb> i think...
[15:52] <Laurenceb> i didnt have some documentation on latex for some biosensor design work
[15:52] <Laurenceb> but its lost in my pile of papers...
[15:59] <LeoBodnar_> How does permeability varies with temperature?
[15:59] <LeoBodnar_> Would saturating latex with He reduce permeability (I suspect not)
[16:01] <Laurenceb> the pressure drop across the latex is low
[16:02] <Laurenceb> compared to ambient
[16:02] <Laurenceb> but the partial pressure of helium drop massivly
[16:02] <Laurenceb> it gets complex there..
[16:02] <Laurenceb> you prob have to model with differential equations
[16:02] <Laurenceb> but for an order of magnitude estimate its simple
[16:03] <Laurenceb> i was modelling a concrete hyperloop tunnle earlier - thats very interesting
[16:03] <LeoBodnar_> Higher temperature causes gas to dissolve better in Latex but I think it is balanced by increased mean free path of gas molecules?
[16:03] <Laurenceb> as you decrease pressure you reach a cut off point where air ingress goes down by orders of magnitude
[16:04] <Laurenceb> i think none of this matters
[16:04] <Laurenceb> the gas molecules are bouncing through the long rubber molecular chains
[16:04] <LeoBodnar_> ^^ on a global scale yes
[16:04] <Laurenceb> mean free path doesnt change
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[16:05] <LeoBodnar_> In ideal gas no...
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[16:40] <Willdude123> Opened up a usb stick to find a sticker resmbling a clock placed on a chip, with an arrow pencilled in towards a certain time
[16:41] <Willdude123> Can someone help me with my PCB?
[16:41] <Willdude123> Please
[16:45] <cm13g09> Willdude123: what do you need help with?
[16:45] <cm13g09> if it's specifics of Eagle - I can't help there
[16:45] <Willdude123> Well, I don't know exactly.
[16:45] <cm13g09> if it's general, I probably can help
[16:46] <cm13g09> what do you mean, you don't know what you need help with?
[16:46] <cm13g09> surely you're trying to do X and getting stuck with it?
[16:46] <Willdude123> Upu said there were loads of problems with it, and he'd help me. He's too busy and told me to see if anyone else could help.
[16:46] <Willdude123> Nope.
[16:46] <cm13g09> ok
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[16:47] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, sitck your files up online
[16:47] <Willdude123> Including schematic?
[16:47] <chrisstubbs> yeah please
[16:47] <cm13g09> chrisstubbs: thanks - I'm not going to be able to help much, as I think Willdude123 is using Eagle....
[16:48] <chrisstubbs> Yeah he is, will see what I can pick up on :)
[16:48] <cm13g09> cheers
[16:48] <Willdude123> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9477294/board.brd
[16:48] <Willdude123> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9477294/board.sch
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[16:50] <Steve_2e0vet> i think chrisstubbs should write a dummies guide to eagle
[16:50] <chrisstubbs> Board and schematic are not consistent
[16:50] <chrisstubbs> do you get that error?
[16:50] <chrisstubbs> Steve_2e0vet, next time it comes up I may well do a youtube vid
[16:50] <chrisstubbs> Hopefully it will be better than my hourly predictor setup vid :P
[16:51] <Steve_2e0vet> chrisstubbs, lol, i took one look at eagle and deleted it, i didnt know where to start
[16:51] <chrisstubbs> just takes a bit of time playing with to get used to it then you should be well away
[16:51] <chrisstubbs> I have seen PCB's done in AutoCAD
[16:51] <chrisstubbs> crime against humanity
[16:52] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs, Err. I need to check. It might be an old one
[16:52] <Steve_2e0vet> ive just downloaded it again got 5mins spare tonight to try and get started
[16:52] <chrisstubbs> Okay yeah that might be the case Willdude123
[16:52] <chrisstubbs> zip up both your current ones and upload them
[16:52] <Willdude123> Try redownloading same link
[16:53] <chrisstubbs> Thats better
[16:55] <Willdude123> join.me?
[16:57] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, download http://bit.ly/195vIiK
[16:57] <chrisstubbs> thats the design rule check for hackvana
[16:57] <Willdude123> Got it already, it fails
[16:57] <Willdude123> https://join.me/226-496-569
[16:58] <Willdude123> Right
[16:58] <Willdude123> That OK?
[16:58] <chrisstubbs> Yeah
[16:58] <chrisstubbs> PM time
[16:58] <chrisstubbs> unless Steve_2e0vet wants to follow the fun?
[16:59] <Willdude123> Private channel maybe?
[16:59] <Willdude123> I have one.
[16:59] <Willdude123> #FunkyChicken
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[17:00] <Willdude123> All spectators, the join.me link is https://join.me/226-496-569 and channel is #FunkyChicken :)
[17:03] <chrisstubbs> A bottom what, via?
[17:03] <chrisstubbs> delete it and see if there is anything underneath
[17:03] <chrisstubbs> the DRC would pick it up like it did
[17:03] <Willdude123> Wrong chan!
[17:04] <chrisstubbs> oops
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[17:05] <Laurenceb> earth to eroomde
[17:05] <Laurenceb> argggg
[17:05] <Laurenceb> epic rage
[17:05] <Laurenceb> missed by 10 seconds
[17:05] <Laurenceb> okay, calling all statisticsy people
[17:05] <Laurenceb> anyone?
[17:06] <Laurenceb> is there a nice way to writing quantile in latex?
[17:08] <chrisstubbs> My GCSE in stats probably wont help
[17:09] <Laurenceb> lol
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[17:15] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_away
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[17:21] <Randomskk> yay i got nbfm tx working on the bladerf too
[17:22] Nick change: KipK_away -> Kipkool
[17:25] <Laurenceb> but what do the LO harmonics do?
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[17:33] <Willdude123> Hmm I'm thinking of joing RAF air cadets. Since I want to have flying lessons at some point.
[17:34] <Willdude123> Looks like you only get to go in gliders
[17:34] <Randomskk> speak to danielsaul
[17:37] <Willdude123> Why?
[17:40] <danielsaul> Willdude123: I'm an air cadet, although CCF rather than ATC
[17:40] <danielsaul> You do get to do powered flying in the Grob Tutor
[17:40] <danielsaul> although they have been offline for the last year due to propeller issues
[17:40] <Willdude123> Ah OK. PM?
[17:41] <danielsaul> Sure
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[17:41] <LeoBodnar> Willdude123: Aviation is a way of spending money not earning it
[17:42] <Willdude123> Of course. Well, unless you do it commercially, surely, it stll costs a shitload
[17:42] <LeoBodnar> To get an ATPL license you're probably looking at £30,000+.
[17:43] <Laurenceb> you can learn quite cheaply in the states
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[17:45] <LeoBodnar> You just end ups spending less Laurenceb not earning more./
[17:45] <Laurenceb> heh
[17:45] <Laurenceb> planes are just glorified busses anyway
[17:45] <Laurenceb> who wants to be a bus driver
[17:46] <LeoBodnar> None of my friends with license fly. I gave up even before getting one. Novelty wears out very quickly.
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[17:47] <LeoBodnar> Get an hour's introductory lesson at your local flying club. IT's probably about £150.
[17:47] <LeoBodnar> Willdude123: ^
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[17:48] <Willdude123> LeoBodnar, yeah
[17:48] <Willdude123> I'll look into it
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[17:50] <LeoBodnar> It goes towards your flying time so buy a logbook, put this hour in there and impress your friends. That's about it.
[17:51] <LeoBodnar> I'd love to fly floatplane in Scotland. That's what'd do.
[17:53] <LeoBodnar> Down here you are either flying from a smallish field that does not even have a tower or spend 15 minutes waiting for takeoff clearance (at £150/hr ticking.)
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[17:54] <LeoBodnar> Small airfields are also overrun with aviation retired snobs (usually with an expensive wife sitting in the clubhouse all day just looking good.)
[17:56] <LeoBodnar> Instructors are just former PPLs building up time for their CPLs. You don't even get to know them when they are gone.
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[17:56] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[17:57] <LeoBodnar> OK, I'm done whinging. Go get a lesson at a local club and see what it looks like. You can get 30min lesson as well.
[17:58] <Willdude123> Bournemouth might be OK.
[17:58] <Willdude123> They have an ATC school and stuff. Or blackbushe
[18:00] <Willdude123> Won't count towards PPL
[18:00] <Willdude123> LeoBodnar, can't afford it atm
[18:01] <Willdude123> Bournemouth says you have to be 13
[18:01] <Willdude123> 14
[18:01] <LeoBodnar> Ask you parents to gift you a 30 min lesson voucher as a birthday present.
[18:01] <Willdude123> Birthday is ages away.
[18:02] <chrisstubbs> fund it on kickstarter
[18:02] <LeoBodnar> Patience is very useful skill for a pilot.
[18:03] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs, And what should I offer as a reward for funding it? I think kickstarter bans stuff like that.
[18:03] <Willdude123> And my parents will think it's dodgy, as usual with everything
[18:03] <mfa298> patience is a useful skill for a lot of people. Shame not everyone has it!
[18:03] <LeoBodnar> It IS dodgy.
[18:06] <Willdude123> mfa298 I can handle waiting.
[18:06] <Willdude123> I am patient.
[18:06] <Willdude123> SOMEONE SAY SOMETHING!!!!
[18:06] <Willdude123> :P
[18:06] <LeoBodnar> Go do it what you are waiting for?!
[18:06] <Willdude123> The money.
[18:07] <mfa298> I wasn't necessarily thinking of you Willdude123, It was just a general observation.
[18:07] <LeoBodnar> Get books and start studying them. There are tonnes of them second hand.
[18:08] <mfa298> It's when you get people on the phone saying "Why Havn't you fixed this yet" I've always wanted to tell them "Because idiots keep distracting me wanting to know when it will be fixed"
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[18:10] <LeoBodnar> If you are serious about flying get the books, there will be a LOT of reading the books if you want to be a pilot.
[18:11] <LeoBodnar> Trevor Thom 8 volume series is what is used in the UK.
[18:11] <LeoBodnar> No, I think it is 6 volumes
[18:11] <Willdude123> I kinda need to focus on ham for a bit but OK
[18:12] <LeoBodnar> What you haven't got ham license yet? Go get one!
[18:12] <LeoBodnar> lol
[18:13] <Willdude123> Need to wait for the actual course
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[18:17] <mfa298> Willdude123: you could always get the book for the foundation license hopefully it's got most of what you need to know in it.
[18:19] <cm13g09> yay - one of my parcels from China was last seen leaving China.... yesterday morning - not yet seen by Royal Muddle....
[18:19] <Willdude123> mfa298 I have
[18:19] <Willdude123> I know a lot of it
[18:20] <mfa298> get reading it
[18:20] <mfa298> then try the sample exams and see what you really know
[18:20] <Willdude123> That's what I mean, I am reading it.
[18:20] <Willdude123> Buggar all.
[18:20] <Willdude123> The links are dead
[18:20] <Willdude123> For the bandplans
[18:20] <Willdude123> On hamtests.co.uk
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[18:20] <Willdude123> So I don't know if they intend for me to use the latest ibe
[18:20] <Willdude123> *one
[18:20] <mfa298> that's probably as the rsgb recently re-did their site
[18:21] <mfa298> there is a pdf somewhere with the bandplans for the exam in
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[18:21] <cm13g09> RSGB redid their site, and now it's easier to use Google to find the page that you want rather than their search/nav links
[18:22] <Steve_2e0vet> do you need permission to launch a foil
[18:23] <mfa298> normal bandplans are: http://rsgb.org/main/operating/band-plans/uk-band-plan/
[18:24] <mfa298> the bits you get for the exam are http://www.rsgbdata.net/wp-site/clubsandtraining/docs/foundation/EX%20307%20Foundation%20Data%202603U.pdf
[18:25] <mfa298> Steve_2e0vet: as long as the whole package (balloon, payload, string etc.) fits inside a 2m sphere for the whole flight it's exempt from needing a notam
[18:26] <Steve_2e0vet> mfa298, what sort of height can they get to?
[18:26] <mfa298> depends a lot on weight
[18:26] <mfa298> I think leo has managed around 8km with his tiny payloads
[18:26] <mfa298> most others have been 2-5km
[18:26] <Steve_2e0vet> oh ok thats not bad
[18:27] <mfa298> there's probably a table on the wiki of what people have done
[18:27] <craag> And I got to about I got 4500m with 35g, 3500m with 50g.
[18:27] <Steve_2e0vet> but do they tend to float rather than up/down
[18:27] <chrisstubbs> Steve_2e0vet, http://bit.ly/15cxXNQ
[18:27] <craag> Steve_2e0vet: Mine were up/down
[18:27] <mfa298> I think they've also had a habit of floating when you want a burst, or busrting when you want a float
[18:27] <craag> Leo uses about 1.7g free lift, I had about 13g free lift.
[18:28] <craag> <10g free lift gives a chance of float I think.
[18:28] <craag> <5g makes it far more likely.
[18:28] <Steve_2e0vet> what do you mean when you say free lift
[18:28] <craag> The amount the balloon would lift in addition to the payload.
[18:29] <craag> So the minimum weight needed to stop it floating away.
[18:29] <craag> free lift = balloon lift - paylod weight
[18:29] <chrisstubbs> leo top tip for tiny free lifts, cut a length of solder and weigh it, add to payload when filling
[18:30] <chrisstubbs> works well :)
[18:30] <Steve_2e0vet> ok. so what is the average weight for a ayload for foil
[18:30] <craag> Just tracker? average is maybe 25g
[18:30] <craag> Leos are about 10.5g
[18:31] <craag> My first one was 35g
[18:31] <mfa298> average before leo flew any was probably higher !
[18:31] <Steve_2e0vet> 35g ? how much did the batteries weigh?
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[18:32] <craag> Steve_2e0vet: That was made up of off-the-shelf modules wired up, 1x AAA (7.5g)
[18:32] <cm13g09> that evening craag
[18:32] <cm13g09> s/that//
[18:32] <craag> But wasn't a PCB, just ublox breakout board, arduino, lipower boost reg, etc.
[18:32] <Steve_2e0vet> craag, ok so you didnt use arduino
[18:32] <Steve_2e0vet> oh u did use arduino
[18:32] <craag> yep
[18:33] <Steve_2e0vet> and 1 xAAA (1.5v)
[18:33] <craag> https://www.thecraag.com/CRAAG1
[18:33] <craag> (schmatic shows 2xAAA, I only used 1)
[18:33] <craag> Also shows sarantel, I used the chip antenna board.
[18:34] <Steve_2e0vet> ok, gives me something to think about
[18:34] <Steve_2e0vet> the flight predictor doesnt do foils does it??
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[18:35] <chrisstubbs> Steve_2e0vet, http://bit.ly/15cxXNQ is pretty darn accurate
[18:35] <craag> It will, just specify ascent rate of about 1.5m/s for a up/down
[18:35] <chrisstubbs> Oh sorry flight path predictor
[18:35] Action: chrisstubbs doh
[18:36] <LeoBodnar> Hi Steve_2e0vet here is most of the info in one place: http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data
[18:36] <mfa298> predictor should work, may just be harder getting reality to match prediction.
[18:36] <Steve_2e0vet> cheers
[18:37] <LeoBodnar> My progress with foils was like that: 1. Oooh it's complicated... 2. Naah, it's easy. 3. Hmmm, it's really complicated.
[18:37] <Willdude123> mfa298 97.69%
[18:37] <LeoBodnar> I am at stage 3 now :)
[18:37] <jcoxon> going to clear the tracker unless someone complains
[18:38] <mfa298> Willdude123: how much did you look at the book/notes etc during that ?
[18:38] <mfa298> or was that purely from memory ?
[18:38] <Willdude123> Didn't look at the notes, had band plan, license text and Control-F.
[18:39] <Willdude123> A few of them were intuitive guesses
[18:39] <Steve_2e0vet> what do you tend to use for a parachute
[18:40] <LeoBodnar> I have done my Morse code appreciation in the club yesterday :)
[18:40] <mfa298> you certainly won't have Ctrl-F in the exam, I can't remember if you have all the license text - although most of it is fairly obvious.
[18:40] <LeoBodnar> Steve_2e0vet: you don't need a parachute, unless you have massively overinflated the balloon it will either leak or rupture and will reduce descent rate to 1-1.5m/s
[18:41] <LeoBodnar> If you inflate it a lot then it might detach leaving you with just a valve.
[18:41] <craag> up/downs tend to detach in my experience.
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> Club trainer does not know Morse code
[18:42] <mfa298> remember you don't have much space to get a parachute in with a balloon and payload within the 2m limit
[18:42] <craag> I'd suggest a streamer
[18:42] <craag> Don't need much
[18:43] <Steve_2e0vet> i might give it a go, are the foil ones anything special or just the ones from the local balloon shop
[18:43] <craag> Or you can put your tracker in a jiffy bag and it just tumbles at about 2m/s :)
[18:43] <craag> hard to track though
[18:44] <craag> Steve_2e0vet: We use the 94cm foils available from Random Aerospace
[18:44] <mfa298> until it lands in a tree :p
[18:44] <craag> mfa298: Yes..........
[18:44] <LeoBodnar> Or you can attach secondary line to the side of the ballon with Kapton tape. They have sort of flat edge.
[18:45] <craag> Good idea
[18:45] <LeoBodnar> They are standard 36" Qualatex balloons. As far as I know this is the only type so you can't get the wrong one.
[18:46] <craag> Yeah I bought my first few off ebay, but it looks like steve takes better care of them (actually sends them in a box, instead of a polythene bag)
[18:46] <mfa298> unless you want it before next weekend or you're not at the conference get them from Steve and collect at the conference (as per his email earlier)
[18:47] <craag> evening cm13g09 !
[18:47] <craag> brain latency is a bit high here atm..
[18:48] <LeoBodnar> I think average neurones signal propagation delay through nervous system is about 20-30msec.
[18:49] <craag> 18:32 -> 18:47
[18:49] <craag> A little high :P
[18:49] <craag> Think I need some sleep..
[18:53] <craag> http://www.reddit.com/r/RTLSDR/comments/1le3if/so_i_discovered_that_my_hp_laptop_leakstransmits/
[18:55] <cm13g09> lol ok craag
[18:57] Action: mfa298 hopes they're not using wireless keyboards
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[18:58] <mfa298> nice comment in there: High security setting? Do it like the KGB and get some typewriters
[18:58] <LeoBodnar> Sound like parasitic oscillation in audio amp
[18:58] <Steve_2e0vet> anyone bought the 10mw transmitters off ebay
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[19:11] Nick change: MichaelC -> MichaelC|Away
[19:13] <ibanezmatt13> As you would normally name a capacitor something like "c1", what would you name an inductor? Is it something like "L1"?
[19:13] <ibanezmatt13> Or H1 or something
[19:14] <bertrik> L is very common
[19:14] <mfa298> Inductors are usually L
[19:14] <ibanezmatt13> cool, thank you :)
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[19:18] <mikestir> anything up this weekend?
[19:19] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_away
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[19:20] <mfa298> not seen anything about any flights
[19:20] <mfa298> although that doesn't mean anything
[19:20] <x-f> VieHAB-1 tomorrow very early in Slovakia
[19:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> One Sunday DOVE from Inverness ....
[19:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> Coorrection Saturday
[19:27] Nick change: KipK_away -> Kipkool
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[19:31] <iain_g4sgx> LeoBodnar: Hiya, can you suggest a good 434Mhz Tx chip that will work @2V and is suitable for HAB RTTY? I'm looking at the semtech sx1223 but am having trouble working out if the PLL will do such small steps with the 3 registers
[19:32] <mikestir> sx1231 has something like 61Hz steps
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[19:33] <iain_g4sgx> cool, thanks very much, will look into it..
[19:34] <mikestir> I think LeoBodnar is using some silabs chip though
[19:35] <LeoBodnar> Silabs have some crazy interface in Si446x/Si406x series.
[19:36] <iain_g4sgx> Its tough working out the common divisor etc, cant re-arrange the formula to look any easier, need some software to work them out i think cos im a bit thick! lol
[19:36] <LeoBodnar> I'd still use Si4032 for RTTY
[19:36] <iain_g4sgx> Nice one, will look it up, thanks.
[19:37] <LeoBodnar> Semtech has very nice offerings but I haven't personally used them (only got some samples waiting.)
[19:37] <mikestir> i've just started playing with those RFM69W modules which I'm pretty sure are sx1231H, which is unfortunately the higher power min 2.4 V version
[19:37] <mikestir> same interface though, and was trivial to program
[19:38] <LeoBodnar> If you pair Si4032 with good TCXO you should be just fine!
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[19:41] <ibanezmatt13> v3 in progress: http://gerblook.org/pcb/kuctEwHWXyJAFDEmkZL2sK
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> People on the tracking side seem to like wide mark/space spread so small freq step does not seem to be an issue.
[19:42] <mikestir> ibanezmatt13: nice
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[19:42] Nick change: DingTo1 -> DingTo
[19:42] <ibanezmatt13> a little more complex than the last lot. Not sure if I got it right though :P
[19:43] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: Did you say earlier that the Taoglass antenna needed a more complex GND plane? If so, I've botched up: http://gerblook.org/pcb/kuctEwHWXyJAFDEmkZL2sK
[19:43] <Upu> no thats fine
[19:43] <Upu> its the new chip antennas that are complex
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[19:43] <Upu> ish
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[19:44] <Upu> looks good
[19:44] <ibanezmatt13> cool, Chris said he'd check it out for me later
[19:44] <Upu> that connection from L1/C8 VBATT run it under the board
[19:44] <ibanezmatt13> err, which one?
[19:44] <Upu> so the ground is continuous from the GND on C8
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[19:45] <ibanezmatt13> oh, you want that polygon underneath?
[19:45] <ibanezmatt13> the vbatt one?
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[19:45] <Upu> http://imgur.com/EyRhas6
[19:46] <ibanezmatt13> aah
[19:46] <ibanezmatt13> got it, I'll sort it
[19:46] <ibanezmatt13> Few errors on the DRC but I think most can be dismissed. I got the polygons right first time on the TPS61201 :)
[19:50] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: http://gerblook.org/pcb/Xw7eGnmBiXJykX9iTuCMCG Better? :)
[19:50] <iain_g4sgx> Yep Si4032 looks good. I was getting too ahead of myself. This is my first board I've done in 7 years so should keep to the KISS method..
[19:50] <Upu> much
[19:51] <ibanezmatt13> cool
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[19:52] <ibanezmatt13> I think I'm getting the nack for making these PCBs
[19:52] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[19:52] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: Could you just glance at the top right corner-ish of the board? There's a lot of criss-crossing of tracks and lots of vias. Do they look ok?
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[19:53] <iain_g4sgx> Upu: I noticed the links on your site to AVA.lbr are broken, but found them on github via google.
[19:54] <Upu> yes sorry iain_g4sgx
[19:54] <Upu> worth a try...
[19:54] <Upu> looks ok to me ibanezmatt13
[19:54] <iain_g4sgx> yep, found them all good now
[19:54] <ibanezmatt13> thanks
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> It's much easier to program iain_g4sgx and you can reuse what other do with it - it is used in I think Hope RFM22 (sp?)
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[19:56] <ibanezmatt13> Just a case now of getting this verified: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xfazp20t74rffrd/final.png There are a few things I've not used before, particularly the SD
[19:56] <LeoBodnar> * easier compared to Si406x
[19:58] <LeoBodnar> Has anybody flown their own designed CCD imager on a HAB?
[19:58] <LeoBodnar> Couldn't stop myself from doodling a CCD thing today.
[20:02] <iain_g4sgx> Is there a spec sheet for the Pi-cam, giving o/p format etc?
[20:04] <mfa298> iain_g4sgx: I think like a lot of things Pi there's not much detail (although I've not looked hard at the cam yet)
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[20:05] <mfa298> I think talking to it is all via the GPU which is closed source stuff with NDAs
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[20:05] <ibanezmatt13> Just imported my new board into sketchup and it looks fit!
[20:05] <ibanezmatt13> sorry :)
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[20:12] <ibanezmatt13> oh yeah! https://www.dropbox.com/s/wqa4bzqonl8p681/ohyeah%21.png
[20:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> daveake_, If you do auction Babbge off, you will have to let Felix B. know he might like to own the record again!
[20:17] <daveake_> haha
[20:18] <daveake_> I have a friend in Austria, who told me that the general consensus there is that Babbage was the first intelligent animal to jump from those heights :)
[20:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> LoL
[20:18] <mfa298> lol
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[20:31] <iain_g4sgx> wow, Si4032 got temp sensor and a CLK o/p for a uP, very nice.
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[20:40] <Willdude123> Upu ironed out all DRC errors.
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[20:45] <Willdude123> Is there a way to add images to a PCB silkscreen? I want a logo of some sort.
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[20:50] <Willdude123> Can anyone check my board?
[20:54] <BrainDamage> you have to vectorize the images first
[20:54] <BrainDamage> otherwise yes
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[21:05] <Steve_2e0vet> am i correct in thinking that the guys who build their own boards used a cut down version of the arduino
[21:06] <chrisstubbs> Steve_2e0vet, atmega328p, 10k resistor, 8mhz crystal and two 22pf caps
[21:06] <chrisstubbs> thats all you need for the basics
[21:06] <Steve_2e0vet> chrisstubbs, is there a schmatic anywhere?
[21:07] <Willdude123> I think I did something that caused a load of Stop Mask errors on DRC
[21:07] <mattbrejza> dont even need the resistor :)
[21:07] <chrisstubbs> clock speed is determined by voltage
[21:07] <Willdude123> Ah i selected show all layers for some reason
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[21:09] <Willdude123> Does it matter if I include the SCH in the gerber files?
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[21:09] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, for hackvana'ing?
[21:09] <Willdude123> Yah
[21:09] <Willdude123> Wait
[21:09] <Willdude123> I don't need to
[21:10] <chrisstubbs> I usually just send all the gerver files, without the .brd and .sch
[21:10] <chrisstubbs> I suspect it confuses the chinese workers
[21:10] <Willdude123> Heh
[21:10] <Willdude123> Need to order all the components now :)
[21:11] <Willdude123> This is gonna cost a lot, not sure if I can afford to do the ham course/exam and this/
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[21:12] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs, can you check the file over?
[21:13] <chrisstubbs> yeah go for it
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[21:15] <Steve_2e0vet> its gonna be a nightmare getting from kings cross to greenwich
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[21:18] <mattbrejza> underground?
[21:19] <chrisstubbs> transportdirect.info ftw
[21:20] <Steve_2e0vet> yeah its still a nightmare kings x to jubille or bank then DLR... i will need a pint by the time i get there - hope there is a bar!!!
[21:20] <Steve_2e0vet> jubilee line to canary wharf i meant
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[21:23] <chrisstubbs> I kinda want to get the stupid cable car thing
[21:24] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[21:25] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9477294/board.brd
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[21:26] <chrisstubbs> same sch?
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[21:29] <Willdude123> yes
[21:29] <chrisstubbs> Apparently not :P
[21:30] <chrisstubbs> can you zip the pair?
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[21:30] <cm13g09> hmm, I've just run into a fun problem involving gravity.... not sure as UKHAS will be able to solve my problem though....
[21:30] <Willdude123> There https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9477294/board.sch
[21:30] Nick change: MichaelC|Away -> MichaelC
[21:31] <chris_99> cm13g09, you want to make a hover board?
[21:33] Action: SpeedEvil needs funding for his hover board.
[21:33] Action: chrisstubbs did make a hover board
[21:33] Action: chrisstubbs suspects he is now too fat for it
[21:33] <cm13g09> chris_99: no...
[21:33] <chris_99> pity
[21:33] <cm13g09> far from it
[21:34] <cm13g09> a plan I've got that requires the skyhooks....
[21:34] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs, working?
[21:34] <chrisstubbs> Yeah, electrically it looks fine
[21:34] <chrisstubbs> DRC passes too
[21:34] <chrisstubbs> ignoring stop mask
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> http://www.leobodnar.com/balloons/B-10/Pages/9.html
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> ^interesting
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> wonder what the black marks are?
[21:35] <chrisstubbs> Just straighten the bloody tracks! it irritates me haha
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[21:35] <chrisstubbs> watch the case of the ntx2 shorting on R2, its a bit close
[21:36] <Willdude123> Tracks are fine
[21:36] <cm13g09> chrisstubbs: Straight tracks all the way ;)
[21:36] <cm13g09> (where possible)
[21:36] <chrisstubbs> up to you Willdude123 its your PCB
[21:36] <chris_99> why does straightness matter cm13g09?
[21:37] <cm13g09> it doesn't - just looks so much neater ;)
[21:37] <cm13g09> (might do if you're running comms lines down them)
[21:37] <chris_99> mm
[21:38] <chrisstubbs> right angle traces should also be avoided apparently
[21:38] <cm13g09> yeah, if you're going around the corner
[21:38] <chris_99> someone said that isn't true i thought
[21:38] <cm13g09> 45 deg, then 45 deg
[21:38] <Willdude123> OK. Will send off to hackvana tomorrow
[21:38] <chrisstubbs> cool Willdude123 :)
[21:38] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: they are aluminium metallisation that fell off on the inside. They are transparent if looked through so just plain nylon.
[21:38] <chrisstubbs> Just enough time to straighten them
[21:38] <LeoBodnar> Oh, Aluminum for you now :)
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> maybe the stretching?
[21:39] <LeoBodnar> I think due to strain
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:39] <LeoBodnar> Yeah
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> did you try "refining" the butane?
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[21:42] <LeoBodnar> 90 degree turns screw up microstrip impedance and cause reflections. If you are below 1GHz you are OK.
[21:42] <LeoBodnar> *right angle sharp turns.
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[21:46] <LeoBodnar> No, customers were all the day in the office. I look mad enough already. I have wires hanging from the ceiling, gas cylinders everywhere, Kapton and Mylar hanging off the skyhooks, if I were to start freezing butane canisters in the freezer...
[21:47] <LeoBodnar> I also ate kiwis without peeling them.
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: the bird, or the fruit/
[21:48] <LeoBodnar> Fruit for today
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[21:49] <Laurenceb_> i was worried for the New Zealanders for a minute
[21:50] <LeoBodnar> Solar panel cooked my LiPo. Not sure why charging controller went past programmed threshold and kept rising the voltage. It's not temperature because it is doing it again
[21:50] <LeoBodnar> We have a racing driver from NZ that comes in now and then.
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> Calls electric motors "engines" :)
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> Good chap though
[21:53] <LeoBodnar> He got shunted few years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSpV02wWKPQ
[21:55] <LeoBodnar> Oh talking about NZ, I love Flight of the Conchords!
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[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[21:56] <LeoBodnar> yo
[21:58] <LeoBodnar> Sunday seems like a good day for attempting to float a foil.
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[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[22:01] <LeoBodnar> It does not end up over the North Pole or Syria on Monday.
[22:02] <chrisstubbs> want the wind to settle down again so I can have another go at latexing
[22:02] <chrisstubbs> maybe It will get higher than 813m this time
[22:03] <LeoBodnar> Why did give up at 813?
[22:03] <LeoBodnar> it
[22:03] <chrisstubbs> yeah
[22:03] <chrisstubbs> leaked :(
[22:03] <LeoBodnar> Oh, latex?
[22:03] <chrisstubbs> yeah 36" latex party balloon thing
[22:03] <Willdude123> What does make sure the extensions match mean for hackvana?
[22:04] <chrisstubbs> the gerbers have extensions that are specific to the layer I think
[22:04] <LeoBodnar> I have one spare too. Did leak through the neck?
[22:04] <chrisstubbs> makes sure you have all the layers
[22:04] <LeoBodnar> it
[22:04] <chrisstubbs> yeah think so
[22:04] <LeoBodnar> IRC is eating its
[22:04] <chrisstubbs> I left it laying around filled for 2 hours while I messed about with trackers, didnt notice but it probably lost a fair bit of helium then too
[22:05] <LeoBodnar> Have you fixed the GPS lock problem?
[22:06] <chrisstubbs> Up u seems to think the chip antenna was too close to the ublox
[22:06] <chrisstubbs> shuffled it up on the pad a bit, still takes a bit of time but think its okay
[22:08] <LeoBodnar> Marker is to the UBLOX side?
[22:09] <chrisstubbs> Good question
[22:09] <chrisstubbs> yeah :P
[22:09] <LeoBodnar> Oll Korrect
[22:09] <LeoBodnar> No ideas then :)
[22:11] <chrisstubbs> I thought it was ESD damage at first becuase it stopped working after I put it in the foam box, but it came back to life after a few days
[22:12] <chrisstubbs> solder connections all look good
[22:12] <LeoBodnar> Very bizarre. Could it have been moisture?
[22:13] <LeoBodnar> I assume you have restarted the power a few times?
[22:13] <chrisstubbs> yeah
[22:13] <chrisstubbs> very possible
[22:13] <chrisstubbs> it was chucking it down with rain all day
[22:14] <LeoBodnar> I don't think it is conformal coated inside the can.
[22:14] <chrisstubbs> I seem to remember reading in the datasheet not to coat it
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[22:14] <LeoBodnar> Really? I have sprayed it with silicon coating.
[22:15] <LeoBodnar> Works OK.
[22:15] <chrisstubbs> Lol
[22:15] <LeoBodnar> It's all in reverse XD
[22:16] <chrisstubbs> Why do PDF's never copy proerly
[22:16] <chrisstubbs> http://bit.ly/146TIDN page 59
[22:17] <chrisstubbs> you would have to be having a bad day to get much inside the case
[22:20] <Steve_2e0vet> chrisstubbs, are there any simple instructions on how to get started with Eagle
[22:21] <chrisstubbs> Steve_2e0vet, I found the hackaday youtube tutorials quite good
[22:21] <chrisstubbs> I might throw together a video over the weekend
[22:21] <chrisstubbs> keep bugging me :P
[22:21] <LeoBodnar> "...using HumiSeal® or other related coating products." What a strange statement. It's like saying obesity is caused by "using Tesco or other related food products."
[22:21] <chrisstubbs> haha
[22:21] <LeoBodnar> HumiSeal seem to make hundreds of different products
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[22:22] <LeoBodnar> They probably didn't like their sales rep.
[22:22] <Steve_2e0vet> lol. just been reading the hackvana guide as well, whats the difference between 2,4 & 6 layer boards
[22:22] <chrisstubbs> its the layers of copper on the board
[22:23] <chrisstubbs> 2 layer is copper on the to and bottom
[22:23] <LeoBodnar> NUmber of zeros in price? XD
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> Steve_2e0vet: price = layers^2*k
[22:23] <Steve_2e0vet> what do most people use?
[22:23] <chrisstubbs> but you can have extra layers in between for power rails or signal layers if you really need them
[22:23] <chrisstubbs> most people use 2
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> Steve_2e0vet: 2 layer is basic nowadays
[22:23] <LeoBodnar> You'll know when you need them. XD
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> Steve_2e0vet: It's pretty cheap
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> Steve_2e0vet: 4 layer is generally only used if it turns out to be impossible to make a device in 2 layer
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> a 4 layer board canbe smaller than a 2 layer one - for dense circuits
[22:24] <Steve_2e0vet> ok great well thats a start 2 layer 1.6mm thick
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> your mobile phone may be as much as 10 layers
[22:25] <Steve_2e0vet> would there be components on each of the layers?
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> no
[22:25] <Steve_2e0vet> or is that a stupid question
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> just the outsides
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> It's not quite a stupid question
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> there have been attempts at putting components in boards
[22:25] <Steve_2e0vet> very diplomatic SpeedEvil
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> they never took off for various reasons - basically cost
[22:27] <Steve_2e0vet> ok so all i need to do now is master eagle!!
[22:27] <LeoBodnar> Hybrid modules can probably be put in this category. 80s-90s
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> There are also silly things you can do.
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> Consider that for example - 1.6mm long smd components can be mounted lengthways through a 1.6mm board
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> this is usually a bad idea
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[22:32] <Steve_2e0vet> time for bed i think.. i cannot concntrate any more
[22:33] <WillTablet> It costs more to go in an Airbus simulator than it does to go in an actual light aircraft
[22:35] <Steve_2e0vet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDWCbYevSbI
[22:44] <WillTablet> Wow. Prepar3d looks amazing.
[22:44] <WillTablet> I really hope my dad knows someone at lockheed martin :-)
[22:47] <WillTablet> Arrrrrgh my irc client crashed. i'm gonna have to relog
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[22:48] <chrisstubbs> No windows, I do not want to back up my entire PC to this 2gb SD card
[22:50] <WillTablet> I think the prepar3d flight sim EULA prohibits me from having fun while using it.
[22:50] <Steve_2e0vet> chrisstubbs, hackaday vids look good one question though when i type ADD and press enter i have no objects any ideas?
[22:51] <chrisstubbs> on your main eagle control panel
[22:51] <chrisstubbs> go to libraries
[22:51] <Steve_2e0vet> ok
[22:51] <chrisstubbs> there should be a little green circles next to each library
[22:51] <chrisstubbs> are the green or grey?
[22:51] <Steve_2e0vet> grey but if i click them they go green
[22:52] <chrisstubbs> grey means they are disabled
[22:52] <chrisstubbs> top tip, go to the bottom one and spam the left mouse button
[22:52] <chrisstubbs> they shuffle to the top as you enable them IIRC
[22:53] <chrisstubbs> my s4 seems to have just dumped its entire battery contents as heat for no reason. nice work samsung
[22:53] <Steve_2e0vet> thanks. i notice element14 is in there does that mean all there parts will be?
[22:53] <WillTablet> Seriously. It legal prohibits you to be entertained by it.
[22:53] <WillTablet> *legally.
[22:53] <chrisstubbs> Yeah tehre are a lot of their parts on there
[22:54] <chrisstubbs> resistors caps and inductors are in RCL
[22:54] <WillTablet> You can lose your license for being entertained by it
[22:54] <chrisstubbs> the ublox, ntx2 etc are in upus library which you can download from his github
[22:54] <WillTablet> 1. License Grant. Subject to the terms and conditions of this EULA, Licensor hereby grants Licensee a fully paid-up, nontransferable, nonsublicensable, nonexclusive license during the Term of this EULA to use the Software, but only on no more than one computer at any one time, only by no more than one user at any one time, and only for purposes other than personal/consumer entertainment.
[22:54] <WillTablet> LOL
[22:54] <Steve_2e0vet> can you download from eagle or have to do it manually
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[22:55] <chrisstubbs> ohai i'm zoozbot https://github.com/Upuaut/Eagle-Libraries
[22:56] <chrisstubbs> stick that in C:\Program Files (x86)\EAGLE-6.3.0\lbr or wherever your eagle lives
[22:56] <chrisstubbs> then enable it
[22:56] <Steve_2e0vet> stick the zip file or unzip it
[22:57] <Steve_2e0vet> unzip it
[22:57] <chrisstubbs> jus the .lbr
[22:57] <Steve_2e0vet> sorry didnt realise there was only one file
[22:58] <Steve_2e0vet> what about the arduino chips are they allready installed or do i need to get them as well
[22:58] <WillTablet> chrisstubbs, I thought of getting prepar3d. Then I realized the eula prohibits all forms of fun.
[22:58] <chrisstubbs> ava.lbr has the tqfp one
[22:58] <chrisstubbs> okay WillTablet
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[22:58] <chrisstubbs> lol
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[22:58] <chrisstubbs> you can do a wildcard search in the ADD menu
[22:59] <chrisstubbs> like *atmega*
[22:59] <WillTablet> Sorry client crashed.
[22:59] <chrisstubbs> that searches all your libraries
[22:59] <WillTablet> Can I help ypu guys here?
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[23:00] <Steve_2e0vet> cheers chrisstubbs im defo off to bed now, i'll catch up with this in the morning
[23:01] <chrisstubbs> if you want the DIP version you can use the MEGA8-P in the atmel library
[23:01] <chrisstubbs> its pin for pin compatible with the 328p
[23:01] <chrisstubbs> No worries, laters!
[23:02] <Steve_2e0vet> which is the normal one people use
[23:02] <Steve_2e0vet> 328p?
[23:02] <WillTablet> La'ers steve
[23:03] <chrisstubbs> Yeah
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[23:21] <WillTablet> Wow. Prepar3d looks so cool it's almost orgasmic.
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[00:00] --- Sat Aug 31 2013