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[00:49] <SpeedEvil> https://play.google.com/store/devices/details?id=nexus_4_8gb&hl=en_GB if anyone wanted nexus 4 £159
[00:51] <SpeedEvil> Ariel photosphere? :-)
[00:56] <Randomskk> hahaha hwat
[00:56] <Randomskk> £160?!
[00:56] <Randomskk> that's insane
[00:56] <SpeedEvil> quite
[00:57] <Randomskk> almost tempted to buy a second just to have a hot backup
[00:57] <Randomskk> that's totally silly
[00:57] <SpeedEvil> RAIP!
[00:57] <Randomskk> one for each ear ;)
[00:57] <mfa298> and 200 for the 16G modle
[00:57] <SpeedEvil> quite
[00:57] <Randomskk> wonder if they're planning on bringing out a new model or something
[00:57] <Randomskk> 200 for the 16G is actually great
[00:57] <SpeedEvil> seems likely
[00:57] <Randomskk> maybe I should get that and have my current 8GB as a hot spare
[00:57] <Randomskk> :P
[00:58] <Randomskk> this must be inventory-clearing prices
[00:58] <Randomskk> just wonder whether it's low demand or a new model
[00:58] <Randomskk> can't imagine it's low demand >.>
[00:58] <SpeedEvil> it would have made more saense if they were keeping it on sale to put the 16 at the old 8s price, and then introduce a 32
[00:59] <Randomskk> yea maybe
[00:59] <Randomskk> but this is firesale
[00:59] <Randomskk> the old 8 was 240
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if they're going to drop it for 5
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> 243 IIRC
[01:01] <Randomskk> you seem like the kind of person to know about energy meters. I want to buy one, this belkin thing is crazy cheap compared to anything else
[01:01] <Randomskk> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003WK62WK
[01:01] <Randomskk> but it looks like it's functionally impaired compared to anything else too
[01:02] <Randomskk> but if it gives a watts reading, then I don't really care that it also gives a CO2 reading...
[01:02] <Randomskk> but no kWh :/
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[01:04] <mfa298> with the plug in meter I've got I've made some use of the voltage / current readings.
[01:04] <SpeedEvil> I don't see what it buys you over plugtop ones
[01:05] <SpeedEvil> well, ease of seeing the disaplayh I guess
[01:05] <mfa298> although W and VA are the most useful
[01:05] <SpeedEvil> really expensive though
[01:06] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: that's really expensive? all the other ones I could find on amazon were like £15 to £20
[01:06] <mfa298> moveable display could be useful depending on what your using it with
[01:06] <Randomskk> don't really care about the movable display
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> oh, I saw £39
[01:06] <Randomskk> where did you see that :/
[01:06] <Randomskk> oh, "price for all three"
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[01:07] <mfa298> kWh can be useful for something that's not a constant load (I've done that with washing machine / portable heaters)
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> are you sure it works without the socket?
[01:08] <Randomskk> yea - if you check the other pics, it has a socket
[01:08] <Randomskk> mfa298: yea. but apparently it does have a built in clever load profiling averaging thingy thing
[01:08] <Randomskk> apparently you can set its price per kWh
[01:08] <Randomskk> so I think I might set it to £1 or £0.01 or something
[01:08] <Randomskk> and then sharpie over "£" and replace with "kWh"
[01:09] <SpeedEvil> ah
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[02:53] <arko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bkwTVxdE23A
[03:21] <wrea> arko: nice
[03:22] <arko> oh yeah
[03:22] <arko> i forgot you're in the us
[03:22] <arko> haha
[03:22] <wrea> Woo, I'll be in California in a month
[03:22] <arko> im use to this channel being dead
[03:22] <wrea> lol, yeah
[03:22] <arko> wrea: orly?
[03:22] <arko> where in ca?
[03:23] <wrea> Near San Luis Obispo for my brothers wedding
[03:23] <arko> oh man
[03:23] <arko> beautiful place
[03:23] <arko> i love walking around there
[03:23] <arko> sea breeze
[03:23] <arko> kites
[03:23] <arko> :)
[03:23] <wrea> Never been.
[03:24] <wrea> If I get my way I'll be in Hawthorne on the 30th
[03:24] <arko> you'll like it, but seattle is nice too
[03:24] <arko> heh
[03:24] <arko> lol
[03:24] <arko> why Hawthorne? thats sorta ghetto
[03:25] <arko> in most places
[03:25] <arko> some good
[03:25] <arko> but near the beach
[03:25] <wrea> I'm partial to seattle in comparision before even going because Nor cal is better :P
[03:25] <wrea> Trying to get a tour of a little aerospace company there
[03:26] <arko> hahaha
[03:26] <arko> little indeed
[03:26] <wrea> :P
[03:26] <arko> its a great tour
[03:26] <arko> you'll love it
[03:26] <wrea> I'm not counting on getting one, but I'm hoping
[03:26] <arko> do you know anyone there?
[03:26] <wrea> Someone I know knows someone there :P
[03:28] <arko> ah
[03:28] <wrea> If I knew someone personally I'd probably have a good shot
[03:38] <wrea> If there was a launch at vandenberg i'd probably try to see if i can see it, but it looks like the only launch will be the SpaceX Cassiope launch at the beginning of Sept.
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[05:45] <tweetBot> @daveake: Launch and recovery photos from Babbage's Felix-beating flight #RaspberryPi #UKHAS http://t.co/lhJ2Wk9CHg
[05:46] <tweetBot> @daveake: Images taken during Babbage's Felix-beating flight #RaspberryPi #UKHAS http://t.co/YPd2fsCzK4
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[06:16] <Joel_re> nice pics :)
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[06:36] <Chetic> how can I calculate if I have enough helium?
[06:37] <x-f> http://habhub.org/calc/
[06:37] <x-f> good morning
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[06:43] <tweetBot> @daveake: Full ascent and descent video of Babbage, made from stills and video - http://t.co/NprpMoa9gb #RaspberryPi #UKHAS
[06:43] <Chetic> I mean in the tank
[06:43] <Chetic> it's a 10l tank (at 300 bar), and it's been partly used
[06:46] <Chetic> so the calculator says 2662l and I divide that by 300, and get 8.87
[06:47] <Chetic> is that how to do it..?
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[06:58] <chrisstubbsW> p1v1=p2v2 so yeah that would make sense
[06:59] <chrisstubbsW> do you know there is 300bar left in the tank?
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[07:03] <Chetic> well there shouldn't be since it's been used
[07:03] <Chetic> have no way to measure
[07:05] <chrisstubbsW> well dividing by 300 bar assumes you have 300 bar in the tank
[07:05] <chrisstubbsW> and are decompressing it to 1 bar (atmosphere)
[07:05] <chrisstubbsW> filling a balloon I expect the pressure will be slightly more
[07:06] <Chetic> I thought of it as a percentage of how much of a full 10 litre tank I would need for it to be enough
[07:06] <Chetic> as in it needs to be 88.7% full?
[07:08] <chrisstubbsW> Yes that sounds right (I think)
[07:08] <Chetic> or, 8.87 litres at 300 bar equates to 2662 litres at 1 bar
[07:08] <chrisstubbsW> What I was getting as is 2662 liters at 1 bar = 8.87 l at 300 bar
[07:08] <chrisstubbsW> yep :)
[07:09] <Chetic> nice if a 10l tank will suffice
[07:09] <Chetic> but how can I figure out how much is in the damn thing I already have?
[07:09] <chrisstubbsW> With a guage
[07:09] <Chetic> I was thinking I could weigh it
[07:09] <chrisstubbsW> Best go do some work now, laters!
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[07:10] <Chetic> gosh darn
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[07:16] <LeoBodnar> mornings!
[07:16] <daveake> Plural? I can only handle one at a time
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[07:24] <LazyLeopard> daveake: That's at leat 50% more than I seem to manage... ;)
[07:24] <daveake> lol
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[07:26] <LeoBodnar> Have you been on Fox News yet daveake ? XD
[07:26] <eroomde> http://jpaerospace.com/blog/
[07:26] <eroomde> always worth stopping by these guys every so often
[07:26] <eroomde> they always try interesting things
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[07:30] <LeoBodnar> cloud chamber ooooh
[07:33] <eroomde> they do nice carbon fibre truss work
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[07:44] <Markee> Help required!!! I've built my tracker device transmitting over a Radiometrix NTX2 but it doesn't seem to have a very good transmitting power!! suggestions?
[07:45] <number10> check antenna
[07:49] <eroomde> how have your measured this power to reach your conclusion?
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[07:58] <fsphil> jp's launch method seems quite harsh on the payload
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[07:58] <daveake> Oh, the tent thing?
[07:59] <eroomde> yeah
[07:59] <eroomde> but landing is much harder
[07:59] <eroomde> so
[08:01] <Markee> hung the device out of the 1st floor window and took radio receiver to the nearest hill perhaps 2-3km away but line of site and couldn't get clear reception
[08:02] <Markee> Yaesu is the radio I borrowed from a friend!!
[08:02] <eroomde> what were the antennas at each end?
[08:02] <eroomde> and how were the oriented relative to each other?
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[08:08] <arko> Cloud chamber is very cool
[08:10] <arko> http://jpaerospace.com/blog/?p=5320
[08:10] <arko> Neato
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[08:16] <fsphil> yea that first picture is good
[08:16] <arko> Oh cool, theyre in the towm were we picked up our 3d printer
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[08:16] <arko> eroomde: you get a chance to visit them when you were out here?
[08:16] <eroomde> nope
[08:17] <eroomde> once got an email from jp
[08:17] <eroomde> that has been the sole contact so far
[08:17] <fsphil> they do have an annoying habit of claiming to be going into space
[08:17] Nick change: KipK_away -> Kipkool
[08:17] <eroomde> well they are trying with this magneto orbit airship thing
[08:17] <arko> Neat
[08:18] <arko> Are they cool with people popping their heads in to see whats up?
[08:18] <SpeedEvil> Is this the insane thing that seems to assume hypersonic L/D in the hundreds?
[08:18] <arko> fsphil: they could get jobs at the bbc
[08:19] <SpeedEvil> Markee: line of sight?
[08:22] <eroomde> arko: not sure! poss!
[08:22] <eroomde> they all seem like good nerds
[08:23] <arko> poss?
[08:23] <arko> I should swing by the next time im up in the sac area, seems like cool people :)
[08:24] <eroomde> possibly
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[08:26] <ibanezmatt13> Morning: https://www.dropbox.com/lightbox/home/HAB/NORB
[08:26] <arko> Ah
[08:29] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: does not exist
[08:29] <ibanezmatt13> huh?
[08:29] <eroomde> permissions issue?
[08:29] <eroomde> The folder '/HAB/NORB' does not exist.
[08:29] <eroomde> it's a relative link
[08:29] <eroomde> your session
[08:29] <ibanezmatt13> sorry https://www.dropbox.com/s/2oquc4bh3oybo98/NORB.m4v
[08:29] <eroomde> not a general link to the outside worlf
[08:30] <eroomde> nice :)
[08:33] <Bo_DK> ibanezmatt13: good video.... would recommend to go landscape next time :-D more to view
[08:34] <ibanezmatt13> I wish it was landscape, we had to rotate the PI Cam
[08:34] <Bo_DK> :-/
[08:36] <Bo_DK> anybody bored enough to have time to eyeball my ground tracker cape? no png's... just uploaded egale files to dropbox
[08:36] <Bo_DK> would ike suggestions etc
[08:37] <Bo_DK> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ffhrigdf29zb5om/CdkEst8aoL
[08:37] <Bo_DK> going to do a png and pdf etc now
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[08:41] <ibanezmatt13> Hey UpuWork https://www.dropbox.com/s/2oquc4bh3oybo98/NORB.m4v
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[08:43] <Bo_DK> png's and pdf uploaded too
[08:44] <fz_> Does anyone has the UBox binary specs? I'm trying to understand what you can initialize/modify.
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> I think it would be on the datasheet
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> that's the one
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[08:45] <fz_> thanks eroomde
[08:45] <eroomde> np
[08:45] <eroomde> there's also equivalent for the ublox 7
[08:45] <eroomde> they're extremely similar
[08:45] <eroomde> 99.9%
[08:46] <eroomde> but the low power stuff is slightly different between the two
[08:47] <ibanezmatt13> afk train
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[08:47] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: please tell me you took of the green plastic cover from the picam
[08:48] <fsphil> oh, too late
[08:48] <daveake> tis a bit blurry
[08:49] <daveake> In fact .... I think you're right. Apparently RPi have had a few such complaints.
[08:50] <daveake> Yeah their are some very green frames after burst as it's rolling around
[08:50] <daveake> there
[08:51] <fsphil> see that
[08:51] <fsphil> there's definitly something on there
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[09:07] <Bo_DK> Q.... most external gps antennas that comes with sma connector is male rightt=
[09:08] <Bo_DK> gathering BOM for my ground tracker
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[09:13] <spacekitteh> so, today while flight testing a uav
[09:13] <spacekitteh> we had to suspend flight operations because our ground control station was being enveloped by a herd of cattle
[09:13] <spacekitteh> and they were slowly advancing upon us
[09:13] <spacekitteh> IT WAS SCARY.
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[09:16] <Bo_DK> spacekitteh: most scary are cattle let out for first time after winter :-P
[09:16] <spacekitteh> yeah
[09:17] <spacekitteh> well
[09:17] <spacekitteh> it's spring here
[09:17] <spacekitteh> so
[09:17] <spacekitteh> wait
[09:17] <spacekitteh> is it?
[09:17] <spacekitteh> no, it's spring in four days. IT'S STILL WINTER
[09:17] <Bo_DK> btw.... for servos.... are normal pin headers ok? or are there some headers that can grab a hold of the connectors on the servo itself?
[09:17] <Bo_DK> :-D
[09:18] <eroomde> spacekitteh: we had to abandon a balloon launch for the same reason
[09:19] <eroomde> cow invasion
[09:19] <Bo_DK> cows are not that dangerous
[09:19] <Bo_DK> only if there is a bull among them
[09:20] <Bo_DK> and in that case it does not help to smell to much "natural"
[09:20] <Bo_DK> or if you have to take a leak :-P
[09:20] <Bo_DK> they will see it as anattempt to claim ground :-D
[09:20] <spacekitteh> they started running at us
[09:20] <spacekitteh> and i hid in the car
[09:21] <Bo_DK> hehehe
[09:22] <Bo_DK> no need to... they are just currious who you are
[09:22] <Bo_DK> they might run until a few meters from you
[09:22] <spacekitteh> i was wearing a penguin hat
[09:22] <spacekitteh> that might have confused them
[09:22] <Bo_DK> now why did you not get a video of the running....
[09:22] <Bo_DK> could be fun
[09:23] <craag> Yeah on the BUZZ/ZURG recovery at midnight we woke up a bunch of cows.
[09:23] <fsphil> hah
[09:23] <craag> Rather scary hearing this snorting behind in the dark..
[09:23] <fsphil> I've yet to have an animal encounter through HABing
[09:23] <gonzo_> play moo-bang
[09:23] <fsphil> I've herd it can be scary
[09:24] <gonzo_> that's another tail though
[09:24] <craag> haha
[09:24] <fsphil> when looking for hadie2 we had managed to scare quite a lot of sheep
[09:25] <gonzo_> baa
[09:26] <fsphil> there was on field with a scary looking bull in it -- we decided not to try that one
[09:26] <fsphil> I bet it was in there too
[09:27] <Bo_DK> anyone playing arround with BBB and know where to get the headers (the big ones)... have trouble sourcing them
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[09:38] <Laurenceb> cows wont trample you
[09:38] <Laurenceb> they are almost always just curious
[09:40] <Bo_DK> Laurenceb: yep... told them... they just need to look for bull's
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[09:41] <Laurenceb> also calves, especially if you have dogs
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[09:42] <Bo_DK> arrrgh,,,, why is it so damm hard to source the expansion header for BBB
[09:42] <Bo_DK> ie with extra long legs so you can stack boards
[09:42] <Bo_DK> 46 pins in 2 rows
[09:42] <Bo_DK> 2.54 mm spaceing
[09:43] <Bo_DK> tried rs components...
[09:43] <Bo_DK> brb
[09:46] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: I still have problem with Methanol idea. I have plotted the chart of vapour pressure vs standard atmosphere and vapour pressure is always below air pressure. Is this expected?
[09:46] <Laurenceb> yes
[09:47] <Laurenceb> but it is potentially an issue
[09:47] <Laurenceb> as the methanol may pool in the bottom of the balloon
[09:47] <Laurenceb> preventing it evaporating
[09:47] <Laurenceb> but you only have like 4grams/m^2 of methanol dew forming
[09:47] <Laurenceb> so im not sure if it will run - itd need a test in a freezer to see
[09:48] <LeoBodnar> I hav 50 litres of He in the balloon - how much Methanol vapour would it hold?
[09:48] <Laurenceb> about 6grams at 14C
[09:48] <LeoBodnar> 100% saturated?
[09:48] <Laurenceb> yes
[09:49] <Laurenceb> as the temperature falls the capacity drops dramatically
[09:49] <Laurenceb> so you get dew, and less lift
[09:49] <LeoBodnar> But what makes Methanol special?
[09:49] <cm13g09> Bo_DK: It's OK, I struggle with the same problem for Arduino
[09:50] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: the vapour pressure is quite high, enthalpy of vaporisation is quite low
[09:50] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: yes... if you can find the right one.. its not with extra long legs
[09:50] <Laurenceb> and its vapour pressure changes a lot with temperature
[09:50] <cm13g09> always the issue!
[09:50] <Laurenceb> but im looking at butane now...
[09:50] <cm13g09> anyway - I ought to get back to work!
[09:51] <Laurenceb> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/LogNbutaneVaporPresure.png
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[09:52] <Laurenceb> it might work, but its not as clear cut
[09:52] <Laurenceb> however, it would work in a separate ballonett
[09:52] <LeoBodnar> If balloon is supercooled how Meth warms up then?
[09:52] <Laurenceb> with 100% vapour pressure
[09:53] <Laurenceb> if its supercooled, its still warming up as it descends
[09:53] <Laurenceb> so hopefully you get evaporation
[09:53] <Laurenceb> but not if the methanol has pooled
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[09:54] <LeoBodnar> It would probably funnel into a pool near the neck
[09:54] <Laurenceb> im not sure
[09:54] <Laurenceb> its a very low amount of dew
[09:54] <Laurenceb> needs to be tested in a freezer i think
[09:56] <Laurenceb> yeah a butane ballonnett might give a 5Km float
[09:56] <Laurenceb> dunno about the impact of solar heating
[09:56] <Bo_DK> *sigh*
[09:56] <LeoBodnar> So how would in practice balloon filling should work? Put exactly 6g of methanol into an empty envelope , fill it with 50l of He and wait for it to evaporate?
[09:57] <LeoBodnar> It is pointless to adjust free lift until it has evaporated?
[09:57] <Laurenceb> hmm
[09:58] <Laurenceb> prob adjust the free lift to -3grams or something before it evaporates
[09:58] <LeoBodnar> I.e. free lift has to be fixed with fully gaseous methanol?
[09:58] <Laurenceb> i think you can do it either way
[09:58] <Laurenceb> but methanol evaporates pretty fast
[09:58] <LeoBodnar> In He? XD
[09:58] <Laurenceb> prob best to let it evaporate then you know whatrs happening
[09:59] <Laurenceb> actually i think butane can work
[09:59] <LeoBodnar> If it evaporates inflight you have more lift than you wanted - too much superpressure and burst
[09:59] <Laurenceb> at 10Km, temperature is about -50C
[10:00] <Laurenceb> yeah, but at 8Km its cold and it should condense out
[10:00] <Laurenceb> hopefully...
[10:00] <Laurenceb> its a very experimental idea
[10:00] <LeoBodnar> qualatex won't go to 10km, are you looking at polyethylene?
[10:00] <Laurenceb> yes
[10:00] <Laurenceb> pressure at 10Km is about 200mmHg
[10:01] <Laurenceb> so http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/LogNbutaneVaporPresure.png
[10:01] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: where are you located?
[10:01] <Laurenceb> gives you 20C for solar heating
[10:01] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: http://www.abelectronics.co.uk/products/13/Arduino-Connectors-and-Accessories/8/8-Pin-Stackable-Header-for-Arduino
[10:01] <Laurenceb> if you have a purely butane filled ballonett
[10:01] <Laurenceb> hanging off the bottom
[10:02] <Laurenceb> so just lighter fluid
[10:03] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: if you are in the US of A then: http://www.adafruit.com/products/85
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[10:07] <Tom___> Hi there, hope someone can help. Is the Falcom_fsa03 gps, the best GPS module to get for an Arduino based project?
[10:09] <LeoBodnar> Why would this be better than air-filled anchor balloon?
[10:09] <LeoBodnar> Sharper transitions?
[10:10] <mfa298> Tom___: most people here use the UBlox as it's one of the few that's good at higher altitudes
[10:10] <Tom___> Thanks
[10:10] <Laurenceb> no need for superpressure
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[10:12] <Bo_DK> let me ask a dumb q... where the heck do i find stackable headers for BBB inside the EU
[10:13] <Bo_DK> 2*23pin... 2.54 pitch
[10:13] <Bo_DK> extra long legs etc
[10:13] <HixWork> Tom___ see here for GPS modules http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_64 and use UKHAS code
[10:14] <Tom___> thanks
[10:15] <x-f> Falcom FSA03 has Ublox, it's fine, we use it
[10:16] <Laurenceb> AMY-6M looks interesting
[10:17] <LeoBodnar> It lacks some power modes
[10:17] <UpuWork> I have some of those Laurenceb
[10:17] <UpuWork> Tom___ the Falcom is fine it has an older ublox 5 in it but they are generally fine
[10:19] <Bo_DK> UpuWork: you know where to source hardware bits right?
[10:19] <UpuWork> which hardware bit s?
[10:20] <Bo_DK> hehe
[10:20] <Bo_DK> 2*23 pin stackable headers
[10:20] <Bo_DK> extra long pins etc
[10:20] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:dscn1015.jpg?cache=cache
[10:21] <Laurenceb> heres how to do resistor cutdown
[10:21] <UpuWork> Not coming to the conference this year Laurenceb ?
[10:22] <Laurenceb> fraid not
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[10:22] Action: SpeedEvil wishes transport were easier.
[10:23] <UpuWork> final call registration ends tonight
[10:23] KiwiDean (~Thunderbi@ left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[10:25] <Tom___> UpuWork: Do you know what the pitch header is? "Do you want the 2.54mm pitch header installing (no extra charge)."
[10:26] <UpuWork> just thinking how to explain it
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[10:26] <nosebleedkt> yozzzzz
[10:26] <nosebleedkt> mission #2 successfully recovered :D
[10:27] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/image/cache/data/bo-m6alc-1-500x500.jpg
[10:27] <UpuWork> ok see the pins sticking out of the bottom
[10:27] <UpuWork> thats the pitch header
[10:27] <Tom___> UpuWork: Ah, it's the connection pins.
[10:27] <UpuWork> by default I supply it with one but not soldered in
[10:27] <UpuWork> i.e like this : http://ava.upuaut.net/store/image/cache/data/bo-m6alc-2-500x500.jpg
[10:27] <nosebleedkt> enjoy greece!
[10:27] <nosebleedkt> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=692909724056408&set=a.693020837378630.1073741831.259791880701530&type=1&theater
[10:27] <Tom___> I did get there in the end using google - apologies for wasting your time. Thank you!
[10:28] <UpuWork> not wasting time :)
[10:28] <UpuWork> awesome as ever nosebleedkt
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[10:29] <nosebleedkt> :))))))000
[10:29] <UpuWork> Thanks Tom
[10:30] eroomde (~ed@ joined #highaltitude.
[10:30] <UpuWork> if the awesomeness of your images paid off national debt your country wouldn't be in so much crap at the moment :)
[10:30] <LeoBodnar> I hate lenses with distortion
[10:31] Tom___ (51856ddd@gateway/web/freenode/ip. left irc: Quit: Page closed
[10:31] <tweetBot> @G0TDJ: Last call for #ukhas 2013 Conference Tickets - 7th Sept. Tickets are only on sale until tonight! http://t.co/em0yNkjxC4 & #HAB #hamr
[10:32] <Bo_DK> ....
[10:34] <nosebleedkt> UpuWork, lol
[10:36] <fsphil> ah you at it again
[10:37] <fsphil> is that a stitched panorama?
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[10:37] <fsphil> the distortion seems more on the right
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[10:39] <fsphil> still has good internet
[10:39] <mfa298> still better than some of the UK people :P
[10:40] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: THis valour pressure formula from http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/LogNbutaneVaporPresure.png produces stupid results
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[10:41] <LeoBodnar> Oh, T is now Celsius, how cute
[10:41] <Laurenceb> heh
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> hah
[10:44] <LeoBodnar> Butane liquifies at 4600m in standard atmosphere modle
[10:44] <LeoBodnar> *model
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[10:44] <LeoBodnar> Does this sound right?
[10:46] <Willdude123> UpuWork are you busy again today? Or can you help me with the PCB at some point?
[10:46] <Laurenceb> yes
[10:46] <Laurenceb> thats about what i got
[10:46] <LeoBodnar> So no problem on the ground.
[10:47] <Laurenceb> id investigate the effect of solar heating of the envelope
[10:47] <LeoBodnar> How about using refrigerants?
[10:48] <Laurenceb> most have high vapour pressures
[10:48] <eroomde> i totaly don't understand how half the rocket papers get published
[10:48] <eroomde> are the peers asleep when they're reviewing?
[10:48] <eroomde> i've just spent actual money on one paper, looking at the effect of a kind of injector on the combustion efficiency
[10:49] <eroomde> which is how much force you get at the throad, divided by the propellent mass flow
[10:49] <Laurenceb> cant you haxor your way into a uni network?!
[10:49] <eroomde> i.e. how much bang for your buck. but it's the efficiency of that, i.e. how much you're getting in practive vs the theoretical amount derived from some chemistry programme
[10:49] <eroomde> so, this guy has a copper chamber
[10:49] <eroomde> it's very long and thin
[10:50] <Laurenceb> i think i know where this is goiong
[10:50] <eroomde> as he makes it longer, the efficiency actually goes down (he thinks it should go up because he's giving the propellents longer to mix and burn)
[10:50] <Laurenceb> doh
[10:50] <eroomde> he's obviously just chuffing heat into the copper
[10:50] <Laurenceb> cooling
[10:50] <eroomde> secondly, more amazingly
[10:50] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:50] <eroomde> when he replaces a copper section with acrylic, the combustion efficieny goes right up
[10:50] <eroomde> which he also can't explain
[10:50] <Laurenceb> heh
[10:51] <fsphil> I've seen someone making acrylic rockets
[10:51] <eroomde> but he's not taking into account the acrylic fuel when calculating is propellent mass flow
[10:51] <eroomde> this is so pathetic
[10:51] <Laurenceb> is there a database of refrigerants somewhere?
[10:51] <eroomde> you can't trust anyone to do anything
[10:51] <Laurenceb> sounds like me at work
[10:52] <Laurenceb> hmm wolfram alpha :P
[10:52] <eroomde> it seems like in any given industry, 90% of the people doing it shouldn't be
[10:52] <Laurenceb> then you have to work out which ones are banned...
[10:52] <Laurenceb> funtimes
[10:52] <gross> hi all, does anyone know the recommended number of days before launch date to start worrying that the caa hasn't published the notam yet?
[10:52] <eroomde> 2
[10:53] <fsphil> 28
[10:53] <fsphil> (kidding)
[10:53] <fsphil> they're usually quite last minute
[10:53] <fsphil> but do poke them, they sometimes don't bother
[10:54] <Babs__> acrylic chambers must be fun
[10:55] <eroomde> acrylic chambers are not a thing
[10:55] <eroomde> this must be a masters thesis or something
[10:55] <Babs__> that being said, all that Project Orion stuff was all about ablating material (but not as a source of thrust mind)
[10:55] <gross> great thanks. they did tell me they'd process the application nearer the time. just thought I'd check how close.
[10:55] <eroomde> i can only hope that level of stupid doesn't go on to egt a job in industry
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[10:55] <Babs__> if they go and work for a competitor that is always good
[10:56] <eroomde> well it isn't though
[10:56] <fsphil> oooh there's a notam for a launch not tooo far from here
[10:56] <eroomde> they won't work for a competitor
[10:56] <eroomde> they'll work for one of the enormous sprawling aerospace/space companies
[10:56] <eroomde> that are the reason that the MoD/ESA budget gets completely raped for zero return
[10:56] <eroomde> why everything takes five times longer and costs ten times as much as is required
[10:56] <Babs__> then they will take it down by slow inexorable decline which will be good fo you
[10:56] <eroomde> and that affects all of us
[10:57] <Laurenceb> wtf
[10:57] <Babs__> for you, although you won't be able to measure it
[10:57] <eroomde> in terms of the pots of money available to do things
[10:57] <Laurenceb> http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/campaigns/global-warming-and-energy/green-solutions/greenfreeze/
[10:57] <Laurenceb> seriously wat
[10:57] <Babs__> maybe, but that pot you got stands alone really
[10:57] <Laurenceb> greenpeace did something useful
[10:57] <Laurenceb> O_o
[10:57] <Babs__> although granted, there is a reverse halo effect across your industry when you are trying to pitch it to the uneducated
[10:58] <Babs__> "aerospace never made any money", that kind of thing
[10:58] <eroomde> and those of us who are trying to move at skunkworks speed and hire only the best people we can are forced to jmp through the paperwork hoops put in place to try and protect government procurement from this stupid glaciers of incompetance
[10:58] <eroomde> and those are really arduous hoops
[10:58] <Babs__> its good to see you back eroomde, we were all a little worried yesterday when you started talking about wonderful beautiful forests
[10:59] <Laurenceb> what about the forests??
[10:59] <eroomde> we can't say 'we think it will cost this much, give us this much, I only want to talk to one person in your organisation and he needs to have have the authority to say yes to any of the following hypothetical questions, and otherwise don't ever bother us'
[10:59] <Laurenceb> he'll be working of greenfreeze next
[10:59] <Babs__> i'm almost tempted to put some bad design up to let you give it both barrels
[10:59] <Laurenceb> *cough* hyperloop
[10:59] <Babs__> eroomde LOVES hyperloop
[10:59] <eroomde> http://www.lockheedmartin.co.uk/us/aeronautics/skunkworks/14rules.html
[11:00] <Laurenceb> hyperloop is n00b
[11:01] <LeoBodnar> eer
[11:01] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: send it back and demand refund - distant selling regulations
[11:01] <Laurenceb> any other way of building hyperloop is better than the way proposed
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[11:02] <ibanezmatt13> UpuWork: Did you grab a look at that vid?
[11:02] <Laurenceb> you could come up with random ideas at whim and they would all be more practical
[11:02] <eroomde> all of those rules are good
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[11:03] <Babs__> my best one: any meetings with more than 6 people in are ineffective and wasting someone in the group's time
[11:03] <Laurenceb> haha
[11:03] <eroomde> teams of more than 6 about the same
[11:03] <Laurenceb> im going to email this around at work
[11:04] <Babs__> perhaps we should silo highaltitude on that basis to groups of 6
[11:04] <Laurenceb> irc isnt really a meeting
[11:05] <Babs__> Laurenceb, you could have a hyperloop one all of your own. Don't knock it.
[11:05] <Babs__> *prays*
[11:05] <Babs__> ;-)
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[11:09] <LeoBodnar> There should be no more than 6 people allowed to occupy IRC channel at any given time
[11:09] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[11:09] <Laurenceb> lol
[11:09] <LeoBodnar> So refrigerants...
[11:10] <Laurenceb> i dont think its going to work
[11:10] <Laurenceb> refrigerants seem to be designed for low pressure change over large temperature swing
[11:10] <Laurenceb> thats why greenpeace suggest iso-butane
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[11:11] <eroomde> if any of you have not read 'skunkworks', you should
[11:11] <Laurenceb> now if they could only do some work on nuclear reactor coolants too....
[11:11] <Laurenceb> they would no longer be useless
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[11:11] <eroomde> it's incidently a better treatease of project management than anything you find in airport WH Smiths shops
[11:11] <Laurenceb> heh
[11:11] <eroomde> but it's mostly about developing the SR71, the stealth bomber, and all sorts of other things
[11:11] <eroomde> very good
[11:12] <Laurenceb> yesterday i was in a 5 hour meeting/argument about how to make a temperature controlled water bath
[11:12] <Laurenceb> no SR71 getting built here...
[11:12] <eroomde> do
[11:13] <Laurenceb> i suggested mixing buckets of hot and cold tap water, and using a thermocouple
[11:13] <eroomde> the prototype collapses argument wave functions
[11:13] <Laurenceb> that didnt go down well
[11:13] <mattbrejza> www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01fgk8g/Click_Pipowered_Teddy_Bear/
[11:13] <Laurenceb> "too lame.. BOOO BOOO"
[11:13] <eroomde> what i like about REL is we build rockets and test them
[11:13] <eroomde> in preference to a year of CFD, we'll just design and make the right thing and instrument it
[11:14] <Laurenceb> yeah
[11:14] <eroomde> the joy of having in-house CNC firms that need to be kept busy
[11:15] <Laurenceb> outcome of one of our work meetings...
[11:15] <Laurenceb> http://www.mineprofs.org/info/annual_meetings/2012/SOMP_2012_S5_Jackson.pdf
[11:15] <Laurenceb> page6 for epic lameness
[11:16] <Laurenceb> also page13
[11:16] <eroomde> the first bit of content is
[11:16] <eroomde> a bullet point saying: 'knowledge transfer partnerships'
[11:16] <eroomde> why do you not get the f out of there asap?
[11:16] <LeoBodnar> Knowledge Transfer Partnerships : BS bingo!
[11:16] <Laurenceb> i will soon
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[11:16] <Laurenceb> need to complete PhD :P
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[11:17] <eroomde> i lasted only 6 months at esa cos of bs like that
[11:17] <Laurenceb> heh
[11:17] <Laurenceb> it sounds good until you see the cludge on page 13
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[11:17] Action: Laurenceb passes around some IPA
[11:18] <eroomde> it doesn't sound good
[11:18] <eroomde> why do people have 'any questions' slides?
[11:18] <eroomde> does every spoken word cost them money or something?
[11:18] <eroomde> i don't understand
[11:19] <eroomde> gah
[11:19] <eroomde> right, too much normal world
[11:19] <Laurenceb> heh
[11:19] <eroomde> i need to go and do stuff in my shielded world
[11:19] <eroomde> bbl
[11:19] <Laurenceb> cya
[11:23] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: Adiabatic compression works in our favour stabilising the descent/ascent problem
[11:24] <Laurenceb> i see
[11:24] <LeoBodnar> But it's too small to overwhelm the lapse rate
[11:24] <LeoBodnar> I think
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[11:51] <HixWork> eroomde think the 90% rule is prevalent in all forms of engineering.
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[11:54] <mikestir-work> quick q if anyone is about: is there a favourite insulation for box construction? Is it just any old kingspan/celotex type wall insulation?
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[11:56] <HixWork> Laurenceb that is some fine powerpoint cack right there :D
[11:56] <HixWork> extra point for the use of unneccesary unpotimised graphics, just to bump up the filesize for no gain too
[11:56] <HixWork> fine work indeed
[11:57] <Laurenceb> hehe
[11:57] <Laurenceb> time would have been slightly better spent on something like some mounting bolts
[11:58] <HixWork> I just emailed that skunkworks rule to an old boss. (who was a total c%^k)
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[12:09] <SpeedEvil> mikestir-work: pretty much
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> mikestir-work: some sorts of polystyrene can be stronger than celotex
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> but enough duct tape, and either works well.
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[12:13] <mikestir-work> ok ta
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[12:13] <mikestir-work> the school I am helping out heard back from the CAA and sounds like they may get a notam for the last week in september
[12:14] <fsphil> they actually replied?
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[12:15] <mikestir-work> actually I think they nagged
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> woo
[12:15] <mikestir-work> they aren't getting to launch from the school though - too close to Liverpool airport
[12:15] <mikestir-work> probably going to be from Wrexham
[12:16] <HixWork> fsphil was that NOTAM near you the guy who was on here a couple of weeks ago do you know?
[12:17] <fsphil> do you rememmber the nick HixWork?
[12:18] <mattbrejza> http://habhub.org/zeusbot/logs_highlighted/highaltitude.log.20130602.html
[12:20] <HixWork> i DONT fsphil
[12:20] <fsphil> ah, PaulCDR. possibly - he was willing to drive up to launch it
[12:20] <HixWork> Sorry -CADLock
[12:20] <fsphil> ok only asked HixWork ;)
[12:20] <HixWork> I'll have a wee search
[12:21] <HixWork> fsphil leonardsla3_ is yer man
[12:22] <Bo_DK> Q... starting to look a bit at python... is ther info on how to get list of payloads etc from habitat? ie a kind of api if you will
[12:22] <HixWork> oh errr so too is BackHive it appears fsphil
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[12:24] <Randomskk> Bo_DK: yea uhm
[12:24] <Randomskk> http://habitat.readthedocs.org and http://habitat.habhub.org/ept
[12:24] <Randomskk> the latter might be easiest but it depends a bit on what you wanna do
[12:24] <Bo_DK> just extract list of active payloads and gps data
[12:24] <Randomskk> well
[12:24] <Randomskk> might as well use the main api then
[12:25] <Randomskk> http://habitat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/database.html#using-views-example
[12:25] <HixWork> fsphil leonardsla3_ was the recent guy, BackHive was 300712
[12:25] <Randomskk> you probably want http://habitat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/habitat/habitat/habitat/habitat.views.flight.html#module-habitat.views.flight for active payloads.
[12:25] <Bo_DK> hehe.... yep... it will not be manual work thou
[12:25] <fsphil> none of them where in NI from the looks of it
[12:26] <Bo_DK> figureing a way to let python read it
[12:26] <fsphil> I could just send an sms to the phone number on the notam...
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[12:26] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[12:27] <Bo_DK> off to reading the links
[12:28] <HixWork> Eniskillen, I had a great-aunt there who used to refer to me as bugger-lugs. It always amused me as a kid :)
[12:28] <fsphil> lol
[12:28] <fsphil> yea my mum uses that phrase sometimes
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[12:30] <fsphil> just hope they're not doing something silly like using a spot
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[12:31] <HixWork> wow - met office launch from not too far from me H3929/13 (NAVW)
[12:31] <HixWork> N52°03.00 W000°02.00 5nm
[12:31] <HixWork> wonder if I could get the use of their site?
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[12:32] <fsphil> no harm in asking :)
[12:32] <fsphil> is it an automated launch site?
[12:32] <fsphil> I think the met office site here is all done without anyone there
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[12:34] <HixWork> I wasn't shouting i copied and pasted there :)
[12:34] <Laurenceb> lulwut https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxFad7Rxw7Q
[12:34] <Laurenceb> someone has no life
[12:36] <HixWork> i fI did get permission to launch there I'd have to change from $$HixHAB to $$VASEY
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[12:40] <Bo_DK> looked at the docs etc.... did not get it....
[12:41] <Bo_DK> need to install python first
[12:41] <eroomde> awesome
[12:41] <eroomde> you now have an excuse to learn python
[12:41] <eroomde> happy hapy joy joy
[12:41] <mfa298> Installing python might help with using the api.
[12:41] <Bo_DK> mfa298: its more understanding the docs
[12:42] <Bo_DK> but yes it will help a bit to install it
[12:42] <mfa298> i suspect it helps if you can run some small python scripts to see what's returned
[12:42] <mattbrejza> the docs do assume you understand how a couch DB works
[12:43] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: i feared that....
[12:43] <mattbrejza> after all, no point in repeating whats been said
[12:44] <Bo_DK> well.... it might have to wait then.... learning 2 things at once is over my learning curve
[12:44] <Bo_DK> that is pretty much vertical
[12:45] <mattbrejza> well you can play about with couch by just typing urls into your browser
[12:45] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: one short example?
[12:46] <craag> Bo_DK: https://github.com/thecraag/habrotate/tree/master/cli
[12:46] <craag> There's an example for you!
[12:47] <Bo_DK> :-D
[12:48] <fsphil> I wish python had a for loop
[12:48] <fsphil> in the C style
[12:49] <eroomde> iterators are nice
[12:49] <fsphil> they are
[12:49] <mattbrejza> how do you loop in python ? :/
[12:49] <fsphil> though ackward for simple i = 0 to 10 loops
[12:49] <eroomde> for i n range(10)
[12:49] <eroomde> for i in range(10)*
[12:49] <mattbrejza> ah
[12:49] <eroomde> easy
[12:50] <Randomskk> iterators are wonderful, no need for C-style for loops :P
[12:50] <eroomde> yes basically
[12:50] <fsphil> which makes a big list
[12:50] <fsphil> well can make a big list
[12:50] <Randomskk> not in python3
[12:50] <Randomskk> which you should be using
[12:50] <eroomde> for i in xrange(1) in python 2.x
[12:50] <Randomskk> (anyway in python2 use xrange)
[12:50] <Randomskk> but use python3
[12:50] <eroomde> range(1) doesn't make a list in python 3
[12:50] <mattbrejza> the matlab one is for i = 1:10 which is also nice
[12:50] <Randomskk> python3 is pretty much all iterators
[12:50] <eroomde> no, matlab is never nice
[12:51] <mattbrejza> :P
[12:51] <Randomskk> i = 1:10 is weird and a bit gross :P
[12:51] <fsphil> I've not had the pleasure
[12:51] <mattbrejza> well it took a while but i finalyl can use it
[12:51] <mattbrejza> still has its stupid moments
[12:51] <eroomde> it has so many stupid moments
[12:51] <Laurenceb> heh matlab style
[12:51] <eroomde> ditching for numpy is the best move ever
[12:51] <mattbrejza> it helps to match what others around you are using though
[12:52] <Laurenceb> nowadays i use gnu-octave
[12:52] <Randomskk> so many people are moving to python
[12:52] <eroomde> yes, if it's the house thing, you learn it
[12:52] <eroomde> then try and switch everyone over
[12:52] <Laurenceb> it does have the advantage of being quick and dirty
[12:52] <Randomskk> was chatting to a cv prof at surrey who was like "man, i only know matlab, but all my postdocs are ditching it for python"
[12:52] <eroomde> eg airborne has switched from octave to python now
[12:52] <Laurenceb> - octave
[12:52] <Laurenceb> interesting
[12:52] <Randomskk> so he's now learning python
[12:52] <Randomskk> python is great for cv
[12:52] <Randomskk> and everything
[12:52] <fsphil> no enumerators in python either
[12:53] <Randomskk> what
[12:53] <eroomde> writing cmodules is moderately easy too
[12:53] <Randomskk> enumerate()
[12:53] <eroomde> at least with cpython
[12:53] <Laurenceb> i wrote a gps -> roads list convertor in octave
[12:53] <Laurenceb> that was silly...
[12:53] <Randomskk> eroomde: frankly that's still annoying - compare to cython or ffi
[12:53] <Randomskk> ffi is the way to go imo
[12:53] <Laurenceb> takes gps log and converts to an xml journey format
[12:53] <Randomskk> cffi
[12:53] <Randomskk> just write normal C and normal python. done.
[12:53] <Randomskk> but cython is cool too
[12:54] <eroomde> i might have a look at that
[12:54] <eroomde> does it play nice with pypy?
[12:54] <fsphil> the C style enum I mean
[12:54] <fsphil> though it looks like it's been added in python 3.4
[12:54] <Randomskk> it was made by pypy iirc
[12:55] <eroomde> ok cool
[12:55] <eroomde> that could be just the jazz
[12:55] <HixWork> Damn, I should be trying to learn python over Octave now then?
[12:55] <eroomde> yes
[12:55] <Randomskk> ctypes is a thing too
[12:56] Action: HixWork slides off chair
[12:56] <Randomskk> http://cffi.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
[12:56] <Randomskk> I think cffi is the way to go.
[12:56] <HixWork> eroomde numpy does all the magic stuff that Octave does then?
[12:56] <Randomskk> pypy and cpython support, plus your C code is just C code with no python bits
[12:56] <eroomde> HixWork, yep
[12:57] <eroomde> numpy and scipy
[12:57] <eroomde> numpy basically ust defines the datatypes
[12:57] <eroomde> scipy is all the libraries that do stuff with them
[12:57] <Randomskk> numpy also does all the base level maths :P
[12:57] <Randomskk> scipy is just algorithms
[12:57] <eroomde> however numpy also has some more low-level mathsy functions that should really by in scipy but aren't for hisotrical reasons
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[12:58] <HixWork> drat and double drat, I've been spending time with octave the past few days. I'll jump ship before I get too deep. Python looked fairly easy to pick up to be fair.
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[12:59] <eroomde> time programming is never wasted
[12:59] <eroomde> they're much more similar than they are different
[12:59] <fsphil> two letters are the exception
[12:59] <eroomde> VB
[12:59] <eroomde> but we don't talk about that
[12:59] <HixWork> python is more useful to me I think. I'll spend effort there. VBA is lovely ;d
[12:59] Action: fsphil cries
[13:00] <fsphil> that said I now know what not to do when designing a language
[13:00] <fsphil> so if I ever do that, I'll have a good start
[13:00] <eroomde> i think if i designed a programming language it would probably just look like scheme
[13:00] <HixWork> hackvana posted this: http://goo.gl/gq3Wmg i now have wet salty eyes and a sore face from grinning
[13:01] <LeoBodnar> We need to bring JCL back
[13:01] <eroomde> quora is obnoxious
[13:01] <eroomde> can you copy and paste HixServer ?
[13:01] <eroomde> HixWork, *
[13:01] <eroomde> i don't want to have to sign in
[13:01] <fsphil> it has poped up something and won't let me past
[13:01] <HixWork> hmm, did that to me, then this link worked...
[13:01] <HixWork> sec
[13:01] <eroomde> or can i just'close and read the first answer'?
[13:02] <fsphil> oh refreshed the page
[13:02] <fsphil> didn't bother me again
[13:02] <HixWork> yup click off the popup
[13:02] <fsphil> hah
[13:02] <fsphil> total_hours_wasted_here = 42
[13:02] <HixWork> some of them hurt my stomach
[13:03] <Bo_DK> :-)
[13:03] <fsphil> and the rest are blurry
[13:03] <fsphil> what a sucky website
[13:04] <Bo_DK> think i get some of the logic in habrotate....
[13:04] <HixWork> ctrl mousewheel
[13:04] <Bo_DK> there are just some syntax errors
[13:04] <HixWork> for a quick laugh, look at the source on theoatmeal.com
[13:04] <Bo_DK> downloaded the master zip
[13:05] <Bo_DK> and entered cli dir
[13:05] <Bo_DK> and tried to run setup.py
[13:06] <eroomde> / somedev1 - 6/7/02 Adding temporary tracking of Login screen // somedev2 - 5/22/07 Temporary my ass
[13:07] <eroomde> should be // at the beginning of each line
[13:11] <x-f> (in irssi type "/ /text", the first slash will be ignored then and your line will start with "/text")
[13:14] <HixWork> wonder how well my sarcasm will go down this time http://goo.gl/P3tHpO
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[13:22] <eroomde> nice
[13:30] <Bo_DK> got it running....
[13:31] <Bo_DK> next step must be to use ublox instead...
[13:31] <Bo_DK> hope google wil give the hints
[13:34] <eroomde> the receiver description protocol is the thing you want
[13:34] <mfa298> for a ground station you're probably best off just parsing the NMEA sentences, that way you should be able to plug in any suitable gps.
[13:35] <Bo_DK> hehe... got a bit of code.... now the trick is to blend it in to habrotate
[13:35] <Bo_DK> http://bradsmc.blogspot.dk/2013/06/gps-for-beaglebone-black-d2523t-50.html
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[13:36] <mfa298> there's probably a lot of stuff in habrotate you don't need (which you should probably remove)
[13:36] <Bo_DK> anyways is ordered to hang up washclothes
[13:37] <eroomde> no
[13:38] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[13:38] <eroomde> no blending
[13:38] <eroomde> that's not how you write software
[13:38] <mfa298> Add some more no's and you've got a 2Unlimited Hit
[13:38] <HixWork> <LIMIT
[13:39] <HixWork> before you said that mfa298 I had pictured eroomde as Ben Kingsley in Sexy Beast in his office :D
[13:40] <eroomde> well, you can write software like that, but it's super-tiresome to help people who program like that
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[13:40] <eroomde> because they don't understand their own software
[13:40] <eroomde> it's stupid
[13:40] <mfa298> I blame the recent QI trailers for reminding me of that song
[13:41] <eroomde> and it's happened in this channel so much that the response to people asking for help from c+p stuff is usually rude.
[13:41] <mfa298> do we need a "will it blend" award for people trying blend other bits of software without understanding it properly.
[13:42] <eroomde> i think we should just blend them
[13:42] <mfa298> award is to blend their software at the conference.
[13:42] <eroomde> for the good of everyone else
[13:43] <mfa298> I wonder if some of what's on the wiki should be turned into pseudo code, it might help people learn more about it - although could make things worse (I copied the code from the wiki and it doesn't compile)
[13:44] <eroomde> who knows, it's been debated enough
[13:45] <eroomde> there are unstoppable forces towards lowering the technical barrier to hab
[13:45] <cm13g09> afternoon mfa298
[13:46] <eroomde> if there's money to be made selling a complete tracker, it was going to happen at some point
[13:46] <Randomskk> maybe just add some amusing subtle bugs to the code on the wiki ;)
[13:46] <mfa298> with an off the shelf version there could be some scope to raise the barrier for people doing their own thing. Either buy the expensive option and be limited to what it does or learn to code and do it yourself.
[13:47] Action: mattbrejza removes semicolons from the end of a few lines
[13:47] <mfa298> afternoon cm13g09
[13:47] <eroomde> i suspect a lot of cases that eeded talking into building a tracker in the past will now just say 'oh well, i need to be pragmatic' and buy the off-the-shelf version
[13:48] <Randomskk> on the plus side it probably won't have annoying bugs that habitat must fix
[13:48] <Randomskk> nobody benefits from a huge proliferation of crappy trackers and related schematics, source code etc floating around either
[13:48] <Randomskk> and the people who were going to build interesting trackers or their own trackers will probably do so anyway
[13:49] <Bo_DK> well.... i have to do it that way to get it going....
[13:49] <Randomskk> might even be encouraged to take up doing so having had a working one
[13:49] <eroomde> Bo_DK, no yuo do't
[13:49] <Randomskk> there's arguments both ways right. the big downside is you don't want a huge increase in the number of flights
[13:49] <mfa298> Bo_DK: good code works from having an idea of what it needs to do at a high level, and then coding that as suitable blocks.
[13:50] <eroomde> i think the opposite, i think all the crappy trackers on blog posts are people learning things, whereas now they might just not boher going down that route at all, and buying something OTS
[13:50] <Bo_DK> eroomde: seen in the light i dont know how to program python at all... then what do you suggest? other than doing it for me
[13:50] <mfa298> There's nothing wrong with using existing code as the basis of those blocks (assuming it's released under a suitable license)
[13:50] <eroomde> Bo_DK, learning?
[13:50] <eroomde> it's not like you've been contracted to make a tracker
[13:50] <eroomde> this is a hobby right?
[13:51] <Randomskk> eroomde: yea I guess so. I'm not always convinced by the amount of learning that is required to stick together some of the crap trackers though
[13:51] <Randomskk> I guess you learn _something_
[13:51] <mattbrejza> heh, all this talk reminds me of our first payload http://hexoc.com/apex/apex-i.html
[13:51] <Bo_DK> eroomde: yes.... but i still want it runnning before the end of time :-D
[13:51] <eroomde> sure, but it doesn't take that long to learn what you need to do this
[13:51] <eroomde> the problem for your is psychological, not technical
[13:52] <Bo_DK> eroomde: i have said it more early... my learning curve is pretty vertical
[13:52] <Randomskk> then get climbing?
[13:52] <Randomskk> it's not vertical honestly
[13:52] <craag> mattbrejza: That is a beast! Imagine the computing power you could fly with that much board space now!
[13:52] <Randomskk> you're going to have to learn a host of new skills for sure
[13:52] <Babs__> I'm not buying a ready made gimbal board. Constructing it myself and living the makers dream.
[13:52] <Randomskk> but none of them are that hard
[13:52] <mattbrejza> its now refered to as 'the tank'
[13:52] <Babs__> Although to be fair, it might be very naff
[13:52] <Randomskk> the awol tank? :P
[13:52] <Babs__> is likely to be very naff
[13:52] <mattbrejza> but thats what we came up with basically on our own
[13:52] <Randomskk> eroomde: I guess either way there's no stopping it
[13:53] <mfa298> I think this probably depends on the motivation of the person launching something, if they're doing it as a way of learning some code then it's worth them doing their own thing (and getting help), but for people wanting to just send a balloon up it's probably best for them to buy something rather than chucking bits of code together and praying it works above 1km
[13:53] <eroomde> indeed, it was going to happen
[13:53] <Bo_DK> mfa298: above 1km????????
[13:53] <Randomskk> mfa298: yea. but if we wanted to not have huge numbers of flights then it'd be better if the latter people found making any kind of tracker a sufficient barrier to deter, right
[13:53] <mattbrejza> we (I) even made circularly polarised antennas for rx and tx
[13:53] <Randomskk> not sure whether we want to not have many flights though
[13:53] <Randomskk> and frankly
[13:53] <Randomskk> people will just use shit gsm trackers
[13:54] <Randomskk> that cat is out of the bag
[13:54] <craag> mattbrejza: Fair enough! Quite an in-depth effort.
[13:54] <Randomskk> at least if someone in the community makes a tracker it might be good
[13:54] <mfa298> Randomskk: if people are going to fly something anyway I'm not sure we can stop them. Just provide the tools and guidance to do it sensibly
[13:54] <Randomskk> indeed
[13:55] <mattbrejza> at lesat you learn something (all be it not much) from a OTS tracker rather than a gsm /spot tracker
[13:55] <mfa298> Bo_DK: some of this discussion is about coding in general not just about your project.
[13:55] <Randomskk> I haven't really decided where I stand on whether lots of new flights is a good thing or not
[13:55] <Randomskk> but also I don't really care too much :P
[13:55] <Bo_DK> mfa298: ok :-D
[13:55] <mfa298> Bo_DK: but learning to do what you want in python shouldn't be hard to do,
[13:55] <eroomde> indeed, i don't think the assumption should be that launchign a hab is a right
[13:55] <mattbrejza> we started before it was cool </hipster>
[13:55] <eroomde> and that there need to be x flights per year and so we might aswell make that happen as painlessly as possible
[13:56] <Randomskk> so you think it's not a right?
[13:56] <eroomde> yes
[13:56] <Randomskk> I mean we're no more entitled than any other member of the public, right
[13:56] <Randomskk> ANO applies to everyone
[13:56] <eroomde> ANO?
[13:57] <Randomskk> air nav order
[13:57] <Randomskk> the legislation we launch under
[13:57] <Randomskk> notam-less or otherwise
[13:57] <Randomskk> well the NoV is specifically a variation of the ANO for us but whatever
[13:57] <Randomskk> my point is it's the same law for everyone
[13:57] <eroomde> oh sure, but that's neither here nor there.
[13:58] <Randomskk> so long as the CAA is satisfied with each case - or they're exempt - anyone has just as much right to fly a hab
[13:59] <eroomde> you're arguing a different and strictly narrow and legal point. not interested in that, that's obvious. what i mean is, i don't think you should expect to be able to launch a hab without knowing anything and then not have to learn anything in order to do it
[13:59] <Randomskk> all we get to say is whether people have a 'right' to use use the tracking network really. and we could decide who we give out advice and support to.
[13:59] <Randomskk> right
[13:59] <Randomskk> I agree with you
[13:59] <Babs__> If its the way of other hobbies, then novelty fliers will just do it once, whereas those who get into it will launch multiple times and advance, be it TV, cutdowns, DSLR *cough* etc. or anything else
[13:59] <Babs__> and in that sense, more people innovating will be a good thing
[14:00] <Darkside> we almost flew a canon 7D
[14:00] <Darkside> i say almost, as we'r epretty sure they wont handle the cold well
[14:00] <Randomskk> eroomde: but I don't see how you act on that belief. beyond trying to control access to ukhas or habhub or something
[14:00] <Darkside> and we never ended up flying it
[14:00] <Randomskk> or just being rude on irc, that works
[14:00] <eroomde> status quo
[14:00] <Laurenceb> works for me
[14:01] <eroomde> i.e., i don't think selling turnkey trackers helps
[14:01] <eroomde> i can see there'd be a market for them though
[14:01] <eroomde> i don't really see that there's a problem with a proliferation of gsm-tracker lanches either
[14:01] <Babs__> the big issue i see with mass launches is that if you increase the number of people launching by a factor of 1000 (e.g. by making it easier), then you increase the chance of someone deciding to do away with CAA approval (which is actually the bit that made me think of doing it safely really)
[14:01] <eroomde> if anything i'd say the percentage of them has reduced in the last 6-7 years
[14:02] <Babs__> which increases the chance of them causing an accident
[14:02] <Randomskk> not sure it really does increase the chances
[14:02] <Babs__> which increases the chance of the CAA just doing a blanket ban on them, which harms us all
[14:02] <Randomskk> ATC have given me approval when there's been a helicopter directly overhead
[14:02] <Randomskk> the _one_ time there's been a helicopter directly overhead >_>
[14:02] <Darkside> we've had light aircraft buzz our launch site to see whats going on
[14:02] <mfa298> being mean, I can see some benefit in more gsm tracker launches. They seem to get lost a lot and then publicity that hopefully makes people think twice about the likelyhood of getting stuff back.
[14:02] <Babs__> if there are more things in the sky there are more chances of accident
[14:03] <eroomde> we're still a pin-prick compared to meterological sondes
[14:03] <Randomskk> yea
[14:03] <Randomskk> Babs__: well sure, but this is relative
[14:03] <Babs__> we can debate whether that chance is negligible or not still
[14:03] <Babs__> but it still increases the chances
[14:03] <Randomskk> you could have ten times the risk and it's still not going to come close to the met office launching twice a day from ten sites or wahtever
[14:03] <Randomskk> a blanket ban would suck but seems unlikely compared to just fining whoever launched illegally
[14:04] <Babs__> i agree, but the risk is still there
[14:04] <Randomskk> hard to guess the CAA's intentions though of course
[14:04] <HixWork> Darkside - I spoke to a Polar explorer a few weeks back, He'sused Nikon DSLRs to below -50C with no ill effects. He recommended putting them in a bag of silica overnight before to dry them out welll
[14:04] <HixWork> even offered me the loan of a D3
[14:04] <Darkside> mm nikons
[14:04] <Darkside> this was a canon
[14:04] <Randomskk> more launches makes getting paid to do publicity launches that much harder :P
[14:04] <Darkside> you'd hope it'd be the same
[14:04] <HixWork> at that level thay're one and the same
[14:04] <Darkside> ok
[14:05] <Babs__> the CAA are government funded, and governments pander to public opinion
[14:05] <Babs__> so one accident, media get hold of it and there you go
[14:05] <eroomde> well, they get hold of weather balloon accidents
[14:05] <HixWork> plus Babs flew a 550D with no probs
[14:05] <eroomde> and that's not really made a difference
[14:06] <eroomde> the met office have something in the telegraph every few years
[14:06] <Babs__> my 550D flew well without problems. not sure it made an ultimate difference to the quality of photos though
[14:06] <Randomskk> mostly employees being involved in routine traffic accidents
[14:06] <Randomskk> the occasional conservatory window broken
[14:06] <Babs__> PHD cameras are pretty good nowadays, and the two benefits of using DSLRs (light grabbing ability and extra control) do not apply up there
[14:06] <Randomskk> still waiting for that major car pileup
[14:06] <eroomde> so the met office launch about 3000 balloons/year, it looks like. we do probably about 1% of that
[14:06] <LBw> Is HABing cool? I think it's boring and tiring.
[14:06] <Babs__> ie you can't control them and there is lots of light
[14:07] <Babs__> LBw. Everyone on here is the definition of coolness.
[14:07] <Babs__> i for example spent over 20 hours carving blue polystyrene for BABSHAB. That is the very definition of being a rock star.
[14:10] <HixWork> PHD Babs__ ?
[14:10] <Babs__> Press Here Dummy
[14:10] <HixWork> ahh
[14:10] <Babs__> (it was a favourite of my art teacher to undermine people who use them)
[14:10] <HixWork> manual still wins.
[14:11] <Babs__> yes, but only when you can adjust stuff. when you can't less of a win.
[14:11] <HixWork> which remids me of my mission to evaluate EV level on publicly available images
[14:11] <Babs__> plus chdk unlocks the important stuff anyway.
[14:11] <HixWork> maybe that is something python could do
[14:12] <Babs__> i will be excited when magic lantern gets ported over to an interchangeable lens type compact (which canon are yet to invent anyway) and fly a wide angle lens. that would be quality.
[14:12] <HixWork> genereally if you shoot RAW and the EV is set for the highest value its likely to see, you should be able to get a decent set of images
[14:12] <eroomde> i'd like to fly a leica with a wide angle lens
[14:12] <eroomde> that would be nice
[14:12] <HixWork> how wide Babs__ ?
[14:12] <Babs__> nice
[14:13] <eroomde> mostly i'd like to keep the leica afterwards
[14:13] <HixWork> heh
[14:13] <Babs__> eroomde. i would have respect for you designing a small rotating cam to engage the shutter on the leica, and flying that.
[14:14] <Babs__> and doing the recovery capsule notice thing on the outside in German for extra authenticity.
[14:14] <eroomde> they have conventionally pluger-type shutter release brackets, do they not?
[14:14] <eroomde> conventional*
[14:14] <HixWork> cable release is the mach std
[14:14] <HixWork> *mech
[14:14] <Babs__> HixWork - not 160 degree, the go pro does that. but one to do an epic type 120 degree shot at a decent quality.
[14:15] <Babs__> not familiar with leica, but that makes sense.
[14:15] <Laurenceb> attn LeoBodnar: http://i.imgur.com/ivalEXm.jpg
[14:15] <Laurenceb> i actually finished off the linear actuator
[14:16] gross (53ce6531@gateway/web/freenode/ip. left irc: Ping timeout: 250 seconds
[14:16] <HixWork> hmm 120 is a tall order a 12mm lens on a full frame gives ~110°
[14:16] <HixWork> horizontal
[14:17] <LBw> Is that the linear stepper ? (I'm LeoBodnar's darker side)
[14:17] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:17] <Laurenceb> with the gumf on it
[14:17] <Babs__> everyone has alter egos on here now.
[14:17] <Laurenceb> and some injection moulding parts randomly...
[14:17] <LBw> Cool. What is your bet it would work?
[14:18] <Laurenceb> it works, just been testing it
[14:18] <HixWork> some even have names Babs__
[14:18] <Laurenceb> thats before it was bolted on the arm
[14:18] <LBw> It looks like unfinished guillotine for kittens.
[14:18] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:18] <Laurenceb> people have to put their hands under it...
[14:19] <HixWork> i reckon using an IMU to fire a camera at precise positions could generate a massive pano-stitch
[14:19] <HixWork> along with magnetometer
[14:19] <HixWork> using a pin sharp distortion free 50mm
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> HixWork: you need some sort of stabilisation, or it gets all blurry
[14:19] <HixWork> why?
[14:19] <HixWork> 1/250s
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Right.
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> Now work out 1/250 * rotations per second * pixels in frame
[14:20] <LBw> It's not cool not to have a massively arching horizon on photos Babs__
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> Probably with some constant i've missed out.
[14:20] <LBw> Barrel distortion is new black
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> Several pixel blur is common
[14:21] <Babs__> LBw - not necessarily, this has quite an arch and i personally would be very happy with it http://d1jqu7g1y74ds1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Earth-Western-Hemisphere.jpg
[14:21] <Babs__> but i accept your point, at the distances we go up to.
[14:21] <Babs__> ;-)
[14:21] <HixWork> a fisheye pointed down would work really well
[14:21] <LBw> ping me when you take similar photo, I'll let BBC know
[14:21] <LBw> :)
[14:22] <LBw> One of the beautiful Nikkor fisheyes...
[14:22] <HixWork> SpeedEvil I see your point, but most of the video ive seen from high alt it seems to be pretty steady mostly
[14:22] <HixWork> it could be coded in however, if rot<1rps then shoot else wait
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> HixWork: Oh - high altitude
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> i was somewhat talking about ascent and descent imagery at tropospheric alts
[14:23] <HixWork> ok
[14:23] <LBw> Everybody's HAB photos and videos look pretty much like the other guy's. It gets boring very quickly.
[14:23] <HixWork> LBw you can get some old skool russian fish-eyes for little money
[14:24] <Babs__> did someone mention keeping things stable at altitude? http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/8845053028/in/set-72157632733154985
[14:24] <Babs__> ahem
[14:24] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> None of them light weight however!
[14:24] <HixWork> LBw hence my preference for a huge stitch.
[14:25] <mattbrejza> any ideas for decent tiny cameras? a mini gimbal being lighter than one for a dslr?
[14:26] <HixWork> Canon Gx series are nice
[14:26] <LBw> DSLRs: In space nobody needs a prism
[14:26] <HixWork> Babs__ that idea could catch on, it'd be nice if someone could come up with such a system ;p
[14:27] <Babs__> i think i am going to do a Gx next time.
[14:27] <mattbrejza> well i was thinking that a new phone these days will take just a decent image as a point and shoot
[14:27] <HixWork> I bought a G9, still not 100% on it
[14:27] <mattbrejza> and the sensor is tiny
[14:27] <Babs__> actually i think the biggest innovation would actually just involve putting a bearing between the balloon and the capsule.
[14:27] <HixWork> no no no. not cameraphones ever
[14:27] <mattbrejza> why not?
[14:27] <Babs__> when my came down it was dead twisty above the bearing, no twist whatsoever below.
[14:28] <HixWork> sensors are too densely populated
[14:28] <HixWork> its not about ppixel count always
[14:28] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://petapixel.com/2013/08/27/panasonic-develops-new-ultra-wide-649-camera-system-for-capturing-sports/#more-121616
[14:28] <HixWork> i have a D2H and its 4Mp, way better than any apple product with 3 times it
[14:28] <mattbrejza> well no, but the photos are still decent enough
[14:29] <HixWork> if you're going to the effort, why accept decent enough
[14:29] <HixWork> strip a decent camera down to get the qaulity with low weight
[14:29] <mattbrejza> because you could get something much smaller
[14:30] <mattbrejza> still have the lens though
[14:31] <LBw> I want to see rollfilm on a HAB. Preferably Hasselblad.
[14:32] <HixWork> velvia 50
[14:32] <LBw> Are they still making it?
[14:32] <HixWork> dunno
[14:32] <HixWork> hopefully
[14:33] <LBw> It will be blurry but it will be gracefully blurry.
[14:33] <HixWork> LBw [keeps making me think of test matches btw] here you go http://goo.gl/i5fukZ
[14:34] <HixWork> I dunno the size of the neg would make it pretty damn sharp if the shutter was fast enough
[14:34] <LBw> Lovely, I really need to smell freshly opened roll of film again!
[14:35] <HixWork> christ a single roll of 35mm is £10.49
[14:36] Action: mfa298 wonders how much it would cost to get a roll of film developed (assuming you can still)
[14:37] <Bo_DK> mfa298: cheap if you ask just to develop and scan the negatives yurself
[14:37] <Bo_DK> yourself
[14:37] <Bo_DK> can try and get an aaprox price
[14:38] <Bo_DK> and still doable as many prefer it for the better picture
[14:38] <HixWork> http://www.dscolourlabs.co.uk/film_neg_services.cfm
[14:38] <HixWork> Incidentally I have a Canon 35mm Film scanner at home still
[14:39] <eroomde> reviewer: 'in your paper you are inconsistent in referring to 'Table' or 'table'. Please fix'
[14:39] <eroomde> author: 'heh that's an easy fix. find & replace -> all -> table Table. too easy! no need to re-read'
[14:40] <eroomde> paper: 'Table 7 has the noTable result that the combustion effiency...'
[14:40] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:41] <HixWork> SCSI too :D
[14:41] <Bo_DK> HixWork: you beat me :-S
[14:41] <Bo_DK> :-D
[14:42] Babs__ (1fdd51ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip. left irc: Quit: Page closed
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[14:43] <Randomskk> omg roll
[14:43] <Randomskk> i still have a roll of 120
[14:43] <Randomskk> bw
[14:43] <eroomde> i have a few too!
[14:43] <eroomde> hp5
[14:44] <eroomde> and a camera for it
[14:44] <eroomde> setting up a darkroom seems like too much effort though
[14:44] <Randomskk> i have a darkbag
[14:44] <Randomskk> much easier
[14:44] <eroomde> given how much time i have for hobbies anyway
[14:44] <eroomde> what the f am i still doing on irc
[14:44] <eroomde> such a time hog
[14:44] <Randomskk> though will admit to winding the paper backing into my development tank
[14:44] <eroomde> and i only get grumpier
[14:44] <Randomskk> first time
[14:44] <Randomskk> happily the film didn't get damaged and I realised in time so still recovered the pics
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[14:45] <Randomskk> yea mine was hp5 too
[14:45] <eroomde> nice
[14:45] <eroomde> i have done that too
[14:45] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/sets/72157619006049503/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/sets/72157619649543186/
[14:45] <Randomskk> not that I had anything to photograph, was just messing around
[14:45] <eroomde> and i was often lazy and pulled the film out of the spool
[14:45] <Randomskk> would be amazing from a hab
[14:45] <eroomde> inside the bag
[14:45] <eroomde> instead of breaking the lid off the spool
[14:46] <eroomde> don't think i got too scratched
[14:46] <eroomde> that would be HiptserHAB
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[14:46] <Randomskk> no
[14:46] <Randomskk> for that you need a
[14:46] <Randomskk> uhm
[14:46] <Randomskk> oh god
[14:46] <eroomde> lomero?
[14:46] <Randomskk> my head is saying 'instagram'
[14:46] <Randomskk> but I mean the other thing
[14:46] <Randomskk> poleroid
[14:47] <Randomskk> polaroid
[14:47] <Randomskk> god
[14:47] <Randomskk> lomero would be good too
[14:47] <mattbrejza> which parachutes each individual pciture as it pops out
[14:47] <Randomskk> polaroid would be hilarious
[14:47] <Randomskk> reminds me of that US spy sat
[14:47] <Randomskk> the amazing one
[14:47] <Randomskk> the totally amazing one
[14:47] <Randomskk> miles and miles of film
[14:47] <Randomskk> parachuted capsules of it back to earth for development
[14:47] <Randomskk> caught by planes with sky hooks
[14:47] <Randomskk> entirely mechanical and analogue tronics
[14:48] <eroomde> i'd quite enjoy working on that kind o thing
[14:48] <eroomde> so beautiful
[14:48] <Randomskk> Corona
[14:48] <eroomde> http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/12/top-secret-your-briefing-on-the-cias-cold-war-spy-satellite-big-bird/250629/
[14:48] <Randomskk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_(satellite)
[14:49] <Randomskk> oh yes
[14:49] <Randomskk> that atlantic article is the one I read way back when
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[14:49] <Randomskk> incredible really
[14:49] <Randomskk> would be great on a HAB
[14:49] <Randomskk> though even just film photo would be fun
[14:49] <Randomskk> need a little motor to wind the spool advance and something to hit the shutter plunger
[14:49] <Randomskk> or just a single exposure
[14:50] <Randomskk> not sure I want to send my agfa up on a hab
[14:50] <Randomskk> but then again you can find these things in charity shops going pretty cheap
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[14:51] <cm13g09> afternoon chrisstubbs
[14:54] <chrisstubbs> howdy
[14:54] <cm13g09> there are times I hate computers :P
[14:55] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: AMEN to that !
[14:55] <LeoBodnar> I recently binned a darkroom colour meter that used photomultiplier tube and constantly rotating mechanical shutter with 4 filters. Analog multiplexers, analog S&H and analog channel differences.
[14:55] <chrisstubbs> whats up?
[14:55] <cm13g09> Bo_DK: the difference is my job is in IT :P
[14:55] <Laurenceb> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/394441/posts/558499/image-302974-full.jpg?1375518802
[14:55] <cm13g09> just Microsoft being Microsoft
[14:55] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: shame on you to say that in here :-P
[14:55] <cm13g09> To manage a Windows Server 2012 server you need Windows Server 2012 or Windows 8
[14:56] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: ie m$
[14:56] <cm13g09> we only just upgraded to Win7
[14:56] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: did you skip vista?
[14:56] <cm13g09> so managing our new Windows Server 2012 boxes, is a bit interesting
[14:57] <cm13g09> and yes, we skipped Vista
[14:57] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: i can picture it....
[14:57] <HixWork> I don't know why Microsoft get such a ribbing, especially when you look at how A$$le have become what they despised
[14:57] <cm13g09> lol
[14:58] <HixWork> and as for fanboys......
[14:58] <cm13g09> HixWork: Microsoft are generally OK - and I'll admit that it works in enterprise environments....
[14:58] <cm13g09> but some of their design decisions are a bit odd....
[14:58] <HixWork> its a whole petrol diesel thing, just use it and get on
[14:58] <mfa298> HixWork: it's because it's what the cool kids do. I've left those days well behind.
[14:59] <HixWork> I have an iPod which is [was until HDD failed] good and an iPad which i got cheap which is no better than any chinacopyandroidtablet
[15:00] <HixWork> on the whole I find their products pretty fragile and impractical for someone who lugs stuff around all the time. Thinkpad otoh...
[15:01] <Randomskk> not sure I'd call the macbook air/pro fragile
[15:01] <Randomskk> and ime the ipads are a lot better than cheap android tablets, though I have the latter and not the former
[15:01] <Randomskk> still wouldn't buy an iphone
[15:01] <eroomde> i'm quite impressed with the ipad's quality
[15:01] <eroomde> compared to other tablets too
[15:01] <Randomskk> yea they are good
[15:02] <Randomskk> my nexus 7 is okay and it's a good android tablet
[15:02] <Randomskk> cheap android tablets are fucking dire
[15:02] <Randomskk> resistive touch screens, no memory, cpu that's probably slower than my arduino
[15:03] <chrisstubbs> Ipad seems easier to use for the computer illiterate parents, galaxy tab confuses the crap out of my mum
[15:05] <Bo_DK> chrisstubbs: i guess you can have the galaxy for yourself :-P
[15:05] <chrisstubbs> Nah I dont use it, my dad used it for buying records on ebay
[15:05] <chrisstubbs> £350 well spent
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[15:06] <cm13g09> (humms) "I'm forever patching servers, Windows servers here and there"
[15:07] <chrisstubbs> cm13g09, still good for saturday morning?
[15:07] <Bo_DK> cm13g09: i know this might sound harsh... but its meant in a fun way: a wound that constant needs patching is not a wound but big crater :-P
[15:07] <LBw> I am still amazed that an average granny was able to use a Unix based system in 2002.
[15:08] <HixWork> huh?
[15:08] <eroomde> mac
[15:10] <LBw> Is Android based on BSD somehow?
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> No
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> Linux.
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> The kernel only.
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> With heaps of retardation layered on top.
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> Linux is to android what a hunting dog is to a laboratory beagle on 50 a day.
[15:12] <chrisstubbs> aha
[15:12] <cm13g09> chrisstubbs: if the winds say yes
[15:12] <Randomskk> haha nice analogy
[15:12] <chrisstubbs> cm13g09, looks wet
[15:12] <cm13g09> as it stands, yes
[15:12] <chrisstubbs> will see what its like on thursday night
[15:13] <mfa298> although MacOS / IOS is similar with BSD, it's there if you go poking but mostly it's hidden by heaps of retardation as well.
[15:13] <cm13g09> I shall probably *still* be patching at that point!
[15:13] <chrisstubbs> will update the hourly with the new balloon data
[15:13] <Randomskk> hey eroomde does iain still use his cam email or what now? jack b is thinking of going to big range, apparently has free composite manufacture
[15:14] <LBw> There's hardly anything left in computer related world that I like...
[15:14] <eroomde> i do hear amazing things about the BSDs for learnix how unix *should* be
[15:14] <eroomde> but i'm not sure time spent poking it would be pay off muchly. would just be for interest
[15:14] <malgar> I'm searching for creative commons images of HABs
[15:14] <malgar> during launch and during flight
[15:14] <eroomde> iain@ael.co.uk
[15:14] <eroomde> use that
[15:15] <chrisstubbs> malgar, ask around on here, people might be happy for you to use their pics
[15:16] <Randomskk> great, thanks eroomde
[15:16] <mfa298> I just treat all OSes as a tools in the toolbox, then choose the right tool for the job, (so main laptop is windows, HAB tracking netbook is linux and servers tend to be CentOS/Solaris depending on they're purpose)
[15:16] <Randomskk> you choose the right tool and pick centos and slowaris?
[15:16] <Randomskk> have you checked a dictionary recently?
[15:17] <mfa298> I don't really want to have to rebuild ubuntu/fedora every 18 months, and most times I've used the LTS releases of ubuntu it's been more buggy than windows.
[15:18] <Randomskk> debian/stable :P
[15:18] <Randomskk> though I've found ubuntu LTEs pretty okay
[15:18] <Randomskk> centos really bugs me
[15:18] <mfa298> last time I had to pull the virtual plug on the box as they would never shutdown.
[15:18] <Randomskk> solaris is kinda fun really
[15:18] <cm13g09> Randomskk: debian unstable is so much more fun :P
[15:18] <Randomskk> hah
[15:18] <LBw> All OSes have bloated de-cooled, have code that nobody understands but stays there for "legacy" reasons, covered in marketing goo got featured on BBC.
[15:18] <mfa298> for ubuntu/centos most of it's down to what you know.
[15:20] <mfa298> Solaris is good for mega stable stuff. Plus it's where I've invested the time/energy with ipv6 routing / firewalling as when I started playing with IPv6 it was a bit too new in the linux kernel (ip6tables wasn't even stateful).
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[15:20] <LBw> It's time for Arduino IDE to support bare IBM PC hardware platform.
[15:20] <mfa298> Plus ZFS (which if you want the best bits of you need solaris)
[15:20] <eroomde> god help us
[15:20] <Randomskk> zfs is pretty great
[15:20] <Randomskk> though now I am using btrfs and having a great time
[15:20] <Randomskk> I sleep soundly at night knowing each day is a fresh adventure
[15:21] <LBw> For megastable systems try MVS
[15:21] <mfa298> I need to find a scsi cd drive (and probably some more irix cd's) and then I can adventure with irix on sgi again sometime.
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[15:26] Action: SpeedEvil ponders where his SCSI CD drive is.
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[15:26] <SpeedEvil> I know where one bit of it is.
[15:26] <LBw> I have a caddy in my drawer
[15:26] <mfa298> lol
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> - i reused part of the case to fix two rat-traps.
[15:26] Action: mfa298 should probably check ebay, no doubt there are lots on there
[15:27] <LBw> They should stay there
[15:28] <mfa298> downside is to use a cdrom drive sensibly with my old sgi I really need the sled for it as well and they're hard to come by
[15:29] <HixWork> I think there are still 2 SCSI SCRWs in my desktop, back at the parentals.
[15:29] <mfa298> wow, single speed scsi cdrom drive, £42. That should probably be in a museum!
[15:29] <HixWork> I remember 52x read being a massive deal
[15:30] <HixWork> now, they barely mention disc speeds, despite shipping a lot of sw on them
[15:30] <LBw> I have seen things I don't remember anymore!
[15:32] <LBw> Like Hercules videocards
[15:33] <mfa298> I should have hung onto some of the old drives I had, based on ebay I could have made some money (although it would probably take ages to sell anything)
[15:33] <LBw> Hires monochrome - so much better than EGA
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[16:15] <Willdude123_> Hi
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[16:42] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_away
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[16:47] <ibanezmatt13> evening
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[16:51] <fsphil> almost
[16:51] <ibanezmatt13> would you class this as afternoon?
[16:52] <fsphil> if I was being nitpicky
[16:52] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[16:52] <ibanezmatt13> I've decided I want to make a huge complicated pcb like the one on cusf.co.uk :P
[16:53] <fsphil> oooh whatcha putting on it?
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[16:53] <mattbrejza> you could solder up your first two first :P
[16:53] <ibanezmatt13> no idea, just want to make something big and complex :)
[16:53] <ibanezmatt13> just waiting on parts mattbrejza
[16:53] <mattbrejza> do you want to design somethig that big or just solder it?
[16:54] <ibanezmatt13> design preferably but soldering too. I just wanna do a big pcb myself :)
[16:54] <Randomskk> big or complicated?
[16:54] <ibanezmatt13> I'm too optimistic I know
[16:54] <ibanezmatt13> both :)
[16:54] <mattbrejza> make a nixie clock
[16:54] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/wombat.png https://randomskk.net/u/headamp-brd.png
[16:54] <mattbrejza> a decent amount of components and is very pretty etc
[16:54] <Randomskk> that first is 5cm by 5cm but has over 600 drill hits
[16:54] <Randomskk> the latter is 16cm by 16cm and has about ten parts
[16:54] <ibanezmatt13> nothing that uses mains voltage :/
[16:54] <Randomskk> mains is fine
[16:55] <ibanezmatt13> not for me
[16:55] <Randomskk> lol
[16:55] <Randomskk> gotta start somewhere
[16:55] <ibanezmatt13> I'd blow myself up before I'd even touch it
[16:55] <mattbrejza> tbh i guess the 200V from the nixie is potentially a bad idea, but it doesnt hurt that much...
[16:55] <Randomskk> yea I shocked myself on the nixie stepup output once or twice
[16:55] <Randomskk> bit of a sting
[16:55] <Randomskk> not as bad as 240V mains
[16:55] <ibanezmatt13> a bit
[16:55] <Randomskk> you feel that
[16:55] <Randomskk> but again, eh
[16:56] <Randomskk> don't be an idiot and you'll be fine
[16:56] <ibanezmatt13> I think 12V is risky enough
[16:56] <mattbrejza> i touched after the current limiting resistor though
[16:56] <Randomskk> mattbrejza: I bridged the current limiting resistor with my finger, lol
[16:56] <Randomskk> ibanezmatt13: the worst you can do with 12V is put it on your tongue
[16:56] <Randomskk> really that's fine
[16:56] <ibanezmatt13> exactly :)
[16:57] <mattbrejza> current limiting resistor is the low voltage side?
[16:57] <ibanezmatt13> Randomskk: I was interested in the Wombat PCB, no idea what it does but it looks neat
[16:57] <Randomskk> it's a hab tracker
[16:57] <Randomskk> lol
[16:57] <ibanezmatt13> I gathered that bit -_-
[16:57] <Randomskk> oh right
[16:57] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[16:57] <Randomskk> well that's what it does
[16:57] <ibanezmatt13> looks more complicated than my NORB boards...
[16:57] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/sets/72157629171748600/
[16:58] <Randomskk> it has a somewhat less frequently used radio (adf7012)
[16:58] <ibanezmatt13> right, what are the other gubbins on it? I'm really intrigued
[16:58] <Randomskk> a very powerful processor - stm32f4 series so it has like 172MHz clock and a ton of flash and RAM and an onboard floating point unit and DSP set
[16:58] <Randomskk> USB for the processor and USB for the GPS too
[16:59] <Randomskk> GPS has a battery backup (flipside of board) and i2c memory storage
[16:59] <Randomskk> µsd card
[16:59] <Randomskk> onboard stepup psu
[16:59] <Randomskk> cutdown firing mechanism
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> sounds brilliant!
[16:59] <mattbrejza> what was the point of the f4 again?
[16:59] <Randomskk> do clever dsp
[16:59] <Randomskk> or transmit big images
[16:59] <Randomskk> idk
[16:59] <Randomskk> do something interesting on the radio
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> Randomskk: How do those cutdowns work? Are they like super heaters to melt nylon chord or something?
[16:59] <Randomskk> ibanezmatt13: this was designed to fire pyros
[17:00] <Randomskk> but yes you can just dump energy into a resistor so it gets hot and melts stuff
[17:00] <ibanezmatt13> fire pyros?!
[17:00] <mattbrejza> do you like your sd card holders char grilled?
[17:00] <ibanezmatt13> like fireworks?
[17:00] <Randomskk> shush
[17:00] <Randomskk> ibanezmatt13: no like pyrotechnic cutdowns
[17:00] <ibanezmatt13> oh :P
[17:00] Nick change: KipK_away -> Kipkool
[17:00] <Randomskk> fireworks don't tend to have electronic igniters
[17:00] <Randomskk> fun as that would be
[17:00] <Randomskk> (don't get ideas)
[17:00] <ibanezmatt13> haha, sure I won't...
[17:01] <ibanezmatt13> I've already looked into buying solid rocket boosters
[17:01] <Randomskk> honestly fireworks and model rockets from hab is a terrible idea :P
[17:01] <Randomskk> it's been done. learn from history, don't repeat mistakes
[17:01] <Randomskk> is my advice ;)
[17:01] <ibanezmatt13> well, not if you have a huge rocket which launches it up to the edge of the atmoshpere then released a HAB payload that comes down on parachute. HAB but without the B :)
[17:01] <ibanezmatt13> HAR
[17:02] <Randomskk> best of luck
[17:02] <ibanezmatt13> thanks, I'll call you from my cell
[17:03] <ibanezmatt13> nah but seriously, I really want to make a PCB like that
[17:03] <Randomskk> go for it
[17:03] <Randomskk> want to see the first PCB eroomde ever made?
[17:03] <ibanezmatt13> the badger one?
[17:03] <Randomskk> yea, http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4362704812/in/set-72157621846323425
[17:03] <Randomskk> 4 layers too
[17:03] <ibanezmatt13> what were the 4 layers?
[17:04] <Randomskk> uhm
[17:04] <ibanezmatt13> I' m only used to GND and GND :(
[17:04] <craag> That is a heck of a PCB for a first!
[17:04] <Randomskk> yes having a whole layer for ground is common. maybe another ground layer or a layer for VCC
[17:04] <Randomskk> two signal layers
[17:04] <Randomskk> maybe he had more signal layers
[17:04] <Randomskk> I don't like to imagine
[17:04] <ibanezmatt13> what did badger do
[17:04] <Randomskk> craag: to be fair it was him and fergus iirc. a while back. many late nights
[17:04] <Randomskk> ibanezmatt13: hab tracker
[17:04] <ibanezmatt13> -_-
[17:04] <Randomskk> really
[17:05] <ibanezmatt13> must be more than a tracker
[17:05] <Randomskk> you'd think so
[17:05] <Randomskk> well I guess it was also a rocket flight computer
[17:05] <Randomskk> and managed pyros
[17:05] <Randomskk> and parachute deployments
[17:05] <Randomskk> and stuff like that
[17:05] <ibanezmatt13> that's more like it :)
[17:05] <Randomskk> and had a gumstix. for software gps
[17:05] <Randomskk> with a custom gps radio frontend
[17:05] <ibanezmatt13> I've GOT to make one of those
[17:05] <Randomskk> that later turned into that big kickstarter I guess
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[17:06] <ibanezmatt13> Randomskk: Would it be a problem for me to have a look at the Eagle files for one of these PCBs? I learn a lot from looking at the schematics and things like that
[17:06] <Randomskk> yea they're probably all online somewhere maybe
[17:06] <Randomskk> I have no idea where though
[17:06] <Randomskk> try cusf.co.uk/wiki
[17:09] <jonsowman> is this for badger and relatives?
[17:09] <jonsowman> think those were in the old svn
[17:10] <ibanezmatt13> I found the files for Wombat, not sure where Badger stuff is
[17:11] <Randomskk> oh god, not the old svn
[17:11] <Randomskk> I'll get the pentagram
[17:12] <Randomskk> did we never put them anywhere else?
[17:12] <Randomskk> probably for good reason. shut and locked and bolted and sealed that door. there be dragons.
[17:12] <ibanezmatt13> Randomskk: Printed the wombat PDF for study tonight :)
[17:12] <Randomskk> enjoy :P
[17:12] <ibanezmatt13> did it work?
[17:13] <Randomskk> yea
[17:13] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[17:13] <jonsowman> mm no I dont think that ended up anywhere
[17:13] <jonsowman> despite best intentions at the time
[17:13] <Randomskk> it's funny what happens to best intentions once they hit The Lab
[17:13] <Randomskk> we should write a book
[17:13] <jonsowman> yeah isn't it
[17:13] <Randomskk> Things We Planned To Do (But Never Did)
[17:13] <Randomskk> :(
[17:14] <jonsowman> D:
[17:14] <ibanezmatt13> gotta go, bbl
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[17:18] <tweetBot> @thoughtstore: "Building a rocket to launch your project into space" http://t.co/j7AMBQphV5 #arduino #ukhas #rocket #space
[17:22] <craag> 120km... now that is space. ambitious!
[17:22] <Randomskk> cool if he pulls it off
[17:23] <fsphil> nic
[17:23] <fsphil> +e
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[17:24] <Willdude123_> man I need a quadcopter
[17:25] <fsphil> no way man, rockets are where it's at
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[17:25] Nick change: Willdude123_ -> Willdude123
[17:25] <mattbrejza> i await the rocket crew to scrutinise the design
[17:25] <Willdude123> Nah
[17:25] <Willdude123> quadcopters are cooler.
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[17:25] <Willdude123> Well, rockets are cool too.
[17:25] <fsphil> but SPACE
[17:26] <Willdude123> But I can't afford either and a quadcopter is a bit less than a rocket.
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[17:26] <Willdude123> I'd love to do both, but due to financial and parental restrictions, not possible
[17:27] <LeoBodnar> Quadcopter are for times more horrible than halicopters
[17:27] <LeoBodnar> *four as in 4
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[17:28] <LeoBodnar> Does IRC eat crctrs?
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> There has to be something a 14 year old can do on the internet to make money :)
[17:28] <mfa298> if you can't afford either does it matter which you want.
[17:29] <mattbrejza> level up WoW characters for people?
[17:29] <mfa298> I assume you don't actually *need* a quadcopter more that you *want* one
[17:30] <Babs__> Evening everyone - a quick question on Lipos. Has anyone flown them and (assuming they can be insulated from the cold), do they perform? I know the ultimate answer will be "use lithium" but i am designing my enclosures and wondering which way to go
[17:30] <LeoBodnar> B-10 flew LiPos at -28C
[17:31] <Babs__> external or internal temp LeoBodnar?
[17:31] <mfa298> I think a few people have flown them
[17:31] <LeoBodnar> No thermal insulation
[17:31] <LeoBodnar> internal
[17:31] <mfa298> from memory charging them if they're <0C can be interesting.
[17:32] <Babs__> and ok LeoBodnar? ( i didn't monitor b10 as was away)
[17:32] <Randomskk> Babs__: they're totally fine
[17:32] <Randomskk> I had lipos at -40C
[17:32] <Randomskk> no problem
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> charging is largely not a problem - if you take care.
[17:32] <LeoBodnar> No problem at all, exceeded my expectations
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> For example - if you're using a solar charger - arranging the batteries to be solar heated is quite possible
[17:32] <LeoBodnar> B-10 used that
[17:32] <Babs__> Thanks guys, thats really helpful - its going to be the easiest way to power my stepper motors
[17:33] <LeoBodnar> Insulation just makes you lose valuable sunshine time.
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> ?
[17:34] <LeoBodnar> When the Sun is up the first thing you want is warm up the batteries and start charging. No insulation means you do it quicker.
[17:35] <LeoBodnar> And it won't prevent heat loss during the night anyway
[17:36] <LeoBodnar> I'm preaching from my perch of course! Babs__ does not need night time performance
[17:37] <Babs__> Mrs Babs might not say that LeoBodnar
[17:37] <LeoBodnar> :D
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> Bubble wrap - clear - over the batteries - with a small foil reflector
[17:38] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: I have tried He heating concept today
[17:38] <Willdude123> SpeedEvil, programming for bitcoins was something I considered
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[17:38] <LeoBodnar> As any other schoolkid on the planet Willdude123
[17:39] <Willdude123> Doubt it
[17:39] <Willdude123> Unless that was sarcas
[17:39] <Willdude123> m
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> many of the clued-up ones.
[17:40] <LeoBodnar> We have just moved from Enthusiasm into Greed stage.
[17:40] <LeoBodnar> WRT Bitcoins stuff
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> well - no
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> that happened about 4 years ago
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[17:51] <LeoBodnar> Well no, we just had "Media" stage half a year ago.
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[17:53] <LeoBodnar> LazyLeopard: it did not work
[17:53] <LeoBodnar> sorry ^^ that was for Laurenceb
[17:54] <ibanezmatt13> Randomskk: Ok so I'm looking at this Wombat schematic and I can identify some of the parts. What is a config EEPROM? I mean, I don't even know what an EEPROM chip is really. You've got a config EEPROM connected to a GPS chip over i2c. What's that for?
[17:54] <Randomskk> EEPROM means 'electronically erasable programmable read only memory'
[17:54] <Randomskk> but really here it means 'a flash chip'
[17:54] <Randomskk> the GPS uses it to store configuration settings and read them again on boot
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[17:54] <Randomskk> so I can, for example, set flight mode once (on my desktop, via USB)
[17:54] <Randomskk> and save that setting to the EEPROM
[17:54] <Randomskk> (the GPS writes the settings over i2c)
[17:55] <Randomskk> and then on boot, the GPS reads those settings, and turns on its flight mode
[17:55] <ibanezmatt13> AAh, that's quite clever
[17:55] <Randomskk> maybe. probably just setting flight mode in the code is easier.
[17:55] <ibanezmatt13> So you have to program the EEPROM chip separately to the other chips?
[17:55] <Randomskk> no
[17:55] <Randomskk> it's just a memory chip
[17:55] <ibanezmatt13> oh of couse
[17:56] <Randomskk> when you instruct the GPS, it writes its config to the EEPROM
[17:56] <Randomskk> and automatically every boot it reads config from the EEPROM
[17:56] <ibanezmatt13> I see, that makes sense then
[17:56] <LeoBodnar> Technically EEPROM and FLASH are different but carry on
[17:56] <Randomskk> aware
[17:56] <Randomskk> but usage is conflated
[17:57] <LeoBodnar> noted! :)
[17:57] <Randomskk> different technologies, similar functionality and purpose
[17:57] <ibanezmatt13> It's gotta be the most complex schematic I've seen (thought I'm aware there are a lot more complicated ones)
[17:57] <Randomskk> haha it's not complex so much as messy
[17:57] <Randomskk> or, well
[17:57] <Randomskk> it's not that messy. just busy.
[17:57] <Randomskk> could do with being 8 or 9 pages rather than 1
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[17:58] <ibanezmatt13> I think 8 or 9 annotated pages is better than 1 pile of circuitry to be honest, but still :)
[17:58] <Randomskk> this is well annotated ;)
[17:58] <ibanezmatt13> The power management thing is quite confusing but I guess that's because you're using some sort of charging application
[17:58] <Randomskk> well it's got lots of power things to manage
[17:58] <ibanezmatt13> I understand the TPS61201 as I've used it on NORBv2
[17:59] <Randomskk> did it work?
[17:59] <ibanezmatt13> not built it yet :
[17:59] <Randomskk> there's the step up power supply, the lipo charger circuirtry, the gps vreg, the USB ports with ESD stuff, other bits
[17:59] <Randomskk> lol I see
[17:59] <ibanezmatt13> GPS has it's own vreg?
[17:59] <ibanezmatt13> how come?
[17:59] <Randomskk> uhm only for powering from usb
[17:59] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok
[18:00] <Randomskk> though the LNA on the GPS input does have its own vreg
[18:00] <ibanezmatt13> and what's this ESD protection thing/
[18:00] <Randomskk> ESD is electrostatic discharge
[18:00] <Randomskk> when something that has been charged up (is staticky) touches stuff
[18:00] <ibanezmatt13> ah what reversing motors causes?
[18:00] <Randomskk> the electricity discharges through it
[18:00] <Randomskk> no
[18:00] <ibanezmatt13> damn
[18:00] <Randomskk> that's back-EMF
[18:00] <arko> http://www.americaspace.com/?page_id=33925
[18:00] <arko> woo
[18:00] <ibanezmatt13> that's the one
[18:00] <arko> rocket launching near us
[18:00] <Randomskk> ESD is like when you touch something metal and get a shock
[18:00] <arko> finally a west coast launch :P
[18:00] <Randomskk> it can damage chips
[18:00] <ibanezmatt13> right
[18:01] <Randomskk> the little things on the USB ports contain clamp diodes that would send the ESD energy to the supply rails rather than allowing it to damage circuits
[18:01] <Randomskk> because a USB port is a likely source of incoming ESD
[18:01] <ibanezmatt13> ah I see
[18:01] <Randomskk> it'd work without it
[18:01] <Randomskk> just a safety feature
[18:01] <ibanezmatt13> I've never seen so many inductors on one page vtw
[18:01] <ibanezmatt13> by the way*
[18:01] <Randomskk> lol
[18:02] <ibanezmatt13> The only time I'd heard of an inductor is when you explained step ups to me that time
[18:02] <ibanezmatt13> which wasn't long ago
[18:02] <Randomskk> back EMF is where a stopping motor induces a voltage in the wrong direction, which can damage the drive transistors, so you use a diode that would not normally conduct to short the motor out
[18:02] <Randomskk> yea, so it has one inductor for that
[18:02] <wrea> arko: And another next week-ish
[18:02] <Randomskk> another inductor on the cutdown circuit to slow down charging the pyro cap and prevent noise from it firing from back propagating
[18:02] <Randomskk> inductors stop AC passing
[18:02] <arko> i wish i drove out to see it
[18:02] <Randomskk> in the same way that capacitors stop DC passing
[18:02] <arko> never seen a launch :/
[18:02] <arko> they are all in florida
[18:02] <wrea> arko: yeah
[18:02] <Randomskk> then there's also a ton of inductors on the output filter stage
[18:03] <Randomskk> they're for RF filtering
[18:03] <ibanezmatt13> ah, I've never gone to the extreme of including anything like that, looks good
[18:03] <wrea> I think SpaceX move their launch to next weekend, it was going to be the 5th
[18:03] <wrea> moved*
[18:03] <Randomskk> they make resonant circuits that remove out of frequency noise
[18:03] <Randomskk> if you're not doing your own radio you don't need to
[18:03] <ibanezmatt13> I guess I'll learn this sort of stuff a bit in A level physics
[18:03] <Randomskk> e.g. the ntx2 and rfm22b have them built in
[18:04] <ibanezmatt13> h right
[18:04] <ibanezmatt13> in fact, my Dad has an A level physics book and it mentioned inductance and capacitance in quite some detail. I'll go dig it out
[18:04] <Randomskk> sure. it should have a good explanation.
[18:04] <Randomskk> well it would be nice if it did anyway
[18:05] <ibanezmatt13> Roger Muncaster
[18:05] <Randomskk> it might just use the hydrolic analogy
[18:05] <Randomskk> hydraulic* perhaps
[18:05] <Randomskk> "electricity is like water! resistors are like narrow hose pipes, voltage is like pressure, flow is like current [that one is true], capacitors are just membranes"
[18:05] <Randomskk> "and, uhm, inductors are...."
[18:05] <Randomskk> usually it breaks down about there
[18:05] <ibanezmatt13> ah
[18:06] <Randomskk> sometimes voltage is like height instead. but hydrostatic pressure gives a linear relation between height and pressure so they're only cheating themselves
[18:06] <mattbrejza> Randomskk: inductors are long coiled hoses
[18:06] <mattbrejza> and ive seen one for transistors too
[18:06] <Randomskk> yes I hear that but I'm not sure I believe it
[18:06] <Randomskk> I think they're just going "shit, what do inductors look like, oh they are coils of wire..."
[18:07] <ibanezmatt13> a whole section here on capacitors..
[18:07] <Randomskk> unless they're trying to say that momentum is like magnetic energy
[18:07] <Randomskk> which I guesssssss you could do
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> inductors atre pressure vessels
[18:07] <mfa298> I'm not sure if A Level physics does much with inductors and very little with capacitors
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> the magnetic field can even make them explode
[18:07] <chrisstubbs> A little about capacitors
[18:07] <Randomskk> hmm yes I guess the pressure vessels thing could work
[18:07] <LeoBodnar> arko: is it live?
[18:08] <Randomskk> either way I think by this point you are better off skipping the hydraulic analogy and explaining electromagnetics
[18:08] <mfa298> I couple of simplified ways to look at them are as ways of storing charge and as frequency dependant resistors
[18:08] <Randomskk> yea
[18:09] <Randomskk> once you know complex numbers life becomes easier
[18:09] <Randomskk> but even otherwise just wL is pretty easy
[18:09] <Randomskk> energy storage is good too. depends what they're being used for in terms of which is the more helpful simplification
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> my favourite analogy involves pipes and water with peas in.
[18:10] <arko> LeoBodnar: yes
[18:10] <arko> i stepped outside but couldn't see it
[18:10] <LeoBodnar> wow, just the right time
[18:10] <arko> wasn't expect it
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[18:10] <arko> er
[18:10] <arko> now its not
[18:11] <arko> it launched at 11:03
[18:11] <arko> this must be a repeat
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[18:12] <ibanezmatt13> So basically, the most you can add to a tracker to make it look more complex is a pyrotechnic cutdown system, some sensors and and some EEPROMs?
[18:12] <arko> ah crap
[18:12] <arko> my friend spotted it
[18:12] <Randomskk> ibanezmatt13: haha
[18:12] <Randomskk> well
[18:12] <LeoBodnar> Ah, OK. Fool me once, etc.
[18:12] <Randomskk> trackers are easy
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> ibanezmatt13: lights
[18:12] <Randomskk> but, no. it depends what direction you take
[18:13] <Randomskk> for instance wombat has a _lot_ of computing horsepower on board
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I fancy something with a bit more... umph :)
[18:13] <Randomskk> so it could do clever things with error coding, compression, etc
[18:13] <Randomskk> you could make the camera part of the payload and transmit images, as people ahve done
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> I like the idea of a solid rocket booster
[18:13] <Randomskk> you could try and make the tracker as small as possible
[18:13] <Randomskk> please don't put a solid rocket booster on a HAB
[18:13] <Randomskk> it will end in tears
[18:13] <Randomskk> or lawsuits
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> I'm thinking HAR
[18:13] <LeoBodnar> My favourite water analogy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVOhYROKeu4
[18:13] <Randomskk> very different ball game ibanezmatt13
[18:14] <Randomskk> what kind of stuff?
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> The B is not as spectacular as the R
[18:14] <Randomskk> amateur model rocketry is very fun
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> Well, the videos on CUSF has inspired me
[18:14] <Randomskk> which?
[18:14] <Randomskk> like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98xiSStzps8
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> I'd like to begin my amateur ventures into space now
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> yes
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> I can watch rocket launch videos over and over and not get bored
[18:15] <Randomskk> did you see https://vimeo.com/41698743
[18:15] <ibanezmatt13> certainly did
[18:15] <Randomskk> anyway uhm, by all means, get involved - but it's just model rocketry, and it's definitely not high altitude
[18:15] <ibanezmatt13> why not? :)
[18:15] <Randomskk> lucky to get a kilometer
[18:15] <Randomskk> UK launch sites are invariably restricted to 3km max altitude
[18:15] <ibanezmatt13> that's silly
[18:15] <Randomskk> and exceeding that is a very costly and difficult business
[18:15] <Randomskk> it's honestly quite sensible for rockets
[18:16] <Randomskk> you can have a lot of fun within that!
[18:16] Action: ibanezmatt13 googles 3000m in ft
[18:16] <Randomskk> 10k
[18:16] <Randomskk> the limit is generally 10k ft.
[18:16] <Randomskk> but honestly, you multiply by 3 and add a bit :P
[18:16] <ibanezmatt13> 10K I guess isn't bad
[18:16] <arko> LeoBodnar: my friend saw it and snapped a picture http://i.imgur.com/EZMTxuR.png
[18:17] <ibanezmatt13> Ok so I'm gonna get myself a rocket, make a nice complicated pcb and and launch up to 10K feet. Then using an autopilot system, glide the thing back down to an airport and BOOM!
[18:18] <ibanezmatt13> BOOM = success, not crash
[18:18] <Randomskk> no I'm pretty sure that's the sound of you getting arrested and/or exploding
[18:18] <Randomskk> keep it simple
[18:18] <Randomskk> avoid the PCB entirely
[18:18] <Randomskk> launch a few model rockets
[18:18] <Randomskk> you have to start small. it's a lot more managed than the HAB stuff too.
[18:18] <Randomskk> you'll need to certify for your level 1 before you can do anything above a G motor
[18:18] <Randomskk> and you need to find actual rocketry sites
[18:18] <Randomskk> for anything half serious
[18:18] <ibanezmatt13> nice :)
[18:19] <Randomskk> actual construction is trickier too and these things involve some level of force and acceleration
[18:19] <ibanezmatt13> It's just the concept of such a massively powerful vehicle being controlled by something that I could make that sounds so fun and rewarding when it doesn't go horribly wrong
[18:20] <Randomskk> "controlled"
[18:20] <Randomskk> you don't really control them
[18:20] <Randomskk> you _must_ launch them manually (as in you press the button) and then they go up
[18:20] <Randomskk> and then they come down. if you're real lucky, with a parachute
[18:20] <ibanezmatt13> Did you see the top gear reliant?
[18:20] <Randomskk> but until you get very sophisticated, the parachute is entirely automatic
[18:20] <Randomskk> yea
[18:20] <ibanezmatt13> that sort of thing :/
[18:20] <Randomskk> that was actually at EARS iirc? or done by EARS people anyway I think
[18:20] <Randomskk> that wasn't really controlled either
[18:21] <Randomskk> and also very very very difficult
[18:21] <ibanezmatt13> nah
[18:21] <ibanezmatt13> NORB boards first I guess. Small steps :)
[18:21] <Randomskk> definitely. babysteps.
[18:21] <Randomskk> you can always use NORB to help locate the rocket after landing
[18:22] <ibanezmatt13> haha, of course
[18:23] <ibanezmatt13> Randomskk: Replace the standard "payload box" for a glider. Use your pyrotechnic cutdown system to release the glider and the autopilot could fly it back which an emergency parachute release if it gets into distress
[18:23] <Randomskk> gliders are cool and all
[18:23] Lunar_Lander (~kevin@p54888B19.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[18:23] <Randomskk> also might be difficult. and legality is hard. it has been done though
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:24] <wrea> hey
[18:24] <ibanezmatt13> Dave Ake sends babbage driven glider from space: Featuring NORB technology
[18:24] <ibanezmatt13> Sounds like a plan
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[18:26] <Tramvai> Hello
[18:27] <Tramvai> Could someone give me some advice with some radio receiving issues?
[18:27] <chrisstubbs> Go for it Tramvai
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[18:29] <ibanezmatt13> Randomskk: Just one last quick question if I may... The pyrotechnic cutdown system on Wombat - would you be able to just breifly explain the basics of how the cutdown works? Then I'll be gone :)
[18:30] <Randomskk> so what you want to do is drive some high-but-not-too-high current through some small resistance
[18:30] <Randomskk> like, 2A
[18:30] <Randomskk> the resistance is approximately 0
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[18:30] <Randomskk> you want to do this without just sourcing it directly from your main PSU, because that will cause the voltage to drop unacceptably, and anyway the step up PSU can't handle it
[18:31] <Randomskk> which means a large capacitor which stores the energy and discharges it quickly
[18:31] <Randomskk> you want that capacitor near the connector for the pyro, so that there's no large pulse of energy travelling very far on the board, which would cause noise
[18:31] <Randomskk> you use a small resistor (say 8R) in line with the pyro device to limit the current
[18:31] <Randomskk> you also want the capacitor to charge up slowly, both at board power-up and after firing
[18:31] <Randomskk> so you put say 100R between the capacitor and the power supply
[18:32] <ibanezmatt13> ok so you trigger the whole thing with a standard output on your main chip?
[18:32] <Randomskk> the inductor stops any noise from the sudden spike getting back to the system, including anything coupled on the long wire to the pyro
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[18:32] <Randomskk> since that long wire to the pyro itself might otherwise act as an antenna
[18:32] <Randomskk> there's a power FET that drives the cutdown
[18:32] <Randomskk> and that is itself triggered by the micro
[18:32] <pc01_> anyone ever had faulty resistors
[18:32] <ibanezmatt13> sounds complex but good Randomskk, thank you
[18:32] <Randomskk> there's another channel that goes back to the micro - between two 10k resistors - which can be used to check that the pyro is fitted
[18:33] <Randomskk> so you can verify that there's a connection by sending a very very small amount of current through
[18:33] <Randomskk> then fire it by sending a big current through
[18:33] <ibanezmatt13> nice
[18:33] <ibanezmatt13> any videos of such pyro activity on a hab?
[18:33] <Tramvai> chrisstubbs: Sorry for the delay. Basically, on one PC, the RTLSDR dongle receives the signal fine: RTTY TEST BEACON etc...
[18:33] <Randomskk> somewhere. brb, food.
[18:33] <Tramvai> But on the laptop, with the same drivers configured and such, it writes out SEAKCAI and some other nonsense.
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[18:35] <Steve_2e0vet> ping Upu
[18:35] <Upu> hey Steve
[18:35] <Upu> if it makes you feel any better I forgot to go to a customer this morning too :/
[18:35] <Steve_2e0vet> hiya. just a quickie, in your NTX2 example, what does R3 (47K) do?
[18:35] <Steve_2e0vet> lol
[18:36] <Upu> there is a 100k resistor on the input the NTX2
[18:36] <Upu> so you're making a voltage divider of sorts
[18:37] <Steve_2e0vet> ok,its just all my 47K's seem to be faulty
[18:38] <Upu> measured on a meter ?
[18:38] <Steve_2e0vet> wondered if a 4k7 would do nearly the same job
[18:38] <Upu> no
[18:38] <Steve_2e0vet> yes.. nothing
[18:38] <Upu> put 10 of them in series :)
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: Did you see the vid?
[18:38] <Upu> yep
[18:38] <Upu> forget to peel the sticker off ?
[18:38] <Steve_2e0vet> i've only got 2 lol
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> not bad considering
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> yes :)
[18:38] <Upu> haha
[18:39] <ibanezmatt13> of all the things
[18:39] <mattbrejza> Steve_2e0vet: ive nevver come acorss a faulty resistor
[18:39] <Upu> shame but something to aim for
[18:39] <Upu> no me neither
[18:39] <mattbrejza> expect one i put 300V thru
[18:40] <LeoBodnar> Maybe they are caps?
[18:43] <Steve_2e0vet> I'M A KN*B
[18:43] <Steve_2e0vet> meter set to 20K reading 47K resistors
[18:45] <Steve_2e0vet> problem i have got now, is the curcuit is Ok, but no RTTY
[18:46] <Upu> measure the voltage
[18:46] <Upu> what voltage is your micro controller ?
[18:46] <Steve_2e0vet> 5v
[18:47] <Upu> ok so measure the voltage difference between a high and a low
[18:47] <Upu> in fact just put the input the radio TX into GND
[18:47] <Upu> and then into 5V
[18:47] <Upu> and measure the voltage at the NTX2 TXD pin
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[18:48] <Steve_2e0vet> just about to do that... i cannot believe i had the meter set wrong
[18:49] <x-f> hi, Tramvai, have you selected USB and not LSB in your SDRsharp, GQRX or whatever you're using for the radio?
[18:49] <Randomskk> try pressing rx
[18:49] <Randomskk> rv
[18:49] <Upu> I spent all evening diagnosing an issue once only to noticed I'd left the multimeter probe in the amps hole
[18:50] <daveake> whoops
[18:52] <Steve_2e0vet> Upu, ok all working now but getting some very strange results....
[18:53] <Steve_2e0vet> i'll just sort the kids out for bed and i will explain
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[18:55] <Laurenceb_> sup
[18:55] <x-f> nm, u?
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[18:57] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: tested He heating idea
[18:58] <LeoBodnar> Doesn't work
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[19:01] <Tramvai> x-f: Hey, I got it fixed.
[19:02] <Tramvai> For some reason the bits per char. was wrong.
[19:02] <x-f> oh, good
[19:02] <Steve_2e0vet> upu using NTX2 434.075, will only decode between 434.075.30 and 434.076.90 is that normal?
[19:04] <Upu> not sure what you mean
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: did you see any lift at all?
[19:04] <Upu> screen shot dl-fldigi
[19:05] <LeoBodnar> about 0.2g at 1W continuous
[19:05] <LeoBodnar> puzzled
[19:05] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[19:05] <Steve_2e0vet> Upu, if i set my radio below 434.075.30 it doesnt decode
[19:05] <LeoBodnar> Difficult to get the heater in the middle
[19:05] <Upu> screen shot
[19:05] <Steve_2e0vet> ok
[19:05] <Laurenceb_> this is in still air?
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> and filled with helium?
[19:06] <LeoBodnar> yes
[19:06] <x-f> Tramvai, there might be a launch in Latvia this Saturday or Sunday, if you're interested
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> odd
[19:07] <Laurenceb_> how long did you leave it for?
[19:07] <LeoBodnar> Doesn't make much sense. Time constant seems short than expected
[19:07] <LeoBodnar> 10 minutes
[19:08] <Laurenceb_> your scales are sensistive enough to measure time constant?
[19:08] <LeoBodnar> Cranked up to 2W and it was so hot it melted the balloon on contact
[19:08] <LeoBodnar> Maintaing neutral buoyancy with adj ballast
[19:08] <Laurenceb_> i see
[19:09] <LeoBodnar> I would wanted to see 2-3g
[19:09] <Laurenceb_> maybe it was picking up moisture
[19:09] <Laurenceb_> the dew point profile said no
[19:10] <Steve_2e0vet> upu Freq 434.075.50 decodes OK http://imgur.com/rkR73m6
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> but perhaps due to IR emission the envelope can get colder
[19:10] <Upu> sounds a bit high but looks ok
[19:10] <Steve_2e0vet> upu Freq 434.075.00 doesnt decode http://imgur.com/MJFML4x
[19:11] <Upu> yeah its out of the range of dl-fldigi
[19:11] <Upu> put a wire on the antenna
[19:11] <Upu> seems alittle weak
[19:12] <Steve_2e0vet> sound from the radio sounds like RTTY
[19:12] <Steve_2e0vet> will do
[19:15] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: sounds like the descent is probably not due purely to supercooling then
[19:15] <Laurenceb_> prob some moisture involved
[19:16] <Laurenceb_> im thinking upside down 5L freezer bag tied up and fixed upside down to the bottom
[19:16] <Laurenceb_> filled with 6grams of butane
[19:16] <LeoBodnar> I started [unwillingly] suspecting this as well.
[19:18] <Laurenceb_> i thought 20 minute time constant sounded unreasonably long
[19:18] <LeoBodnar> I had another idea.
[19:18] <Laurenceb_> its going to be even shorted with airflow
[19:18] <Laurenceb_> *er
[19:18] <LeoBodnar> Yep
[19:20] <LeoBodnar> ballonette attached to a cigarette lighter w/ liquified butane and activated valve. And a secondary relieve valve for day phase do dump gaseous butane
[19:21] <Laurenceb_> heh
[19:21] <Laurenceb_> sounds complex and heavy
[19:21] <Laurenceb_> oh to store and release?
[19:21] <LeoBodnar> Yes
[19:22] <Laurenceb_> oh i see
[19:22] <Laurenceb_> hmm yeah you could do altitude control as suggested by that paper
[19:22] <LeoBodnar> Just to save a critical dive. Then dump gas next morning
[19:22] <Laurenceb_> ive got a lot of mini pneumatics kit for work projects
[19:22] <Laurenceb_> - blood pressure meters
[19:22] <LeoBodnar> Ideally non-flammabe would work better
[19:24] <LeoBodnar> Lighters have the valve already in. Just stick the lighter inside zero-pressured ballonette and get the actuator wires out
[19:24] <Laurenceb_> need to get the liquid back inside tho
[19:24] <LeoBodnar> Maybe not a good idea to mix electrics and butane though
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> lighters do
[19:25] <LeoBodnar> Why? just dump it
[19:25] <mfa298> Steve_2e0vet: you might also need to turn up the audio level - check the diamond colour bottom right - it should be green if the level is good
[19:25] <Laurenceb_> http://ph.parker.com/us/12051/en/x-valve-miniature-pneumatic-solenoid-valve
[19:25] <LeoBodnar> Muscle wire actuator then
[19:25] <Laurenceb_> i use there
[19:25] <Laurenceb_> *these
[19:26] <Tramvai> x-f: Oh wow, again? :P How'd you manage to get permissions for all those?
[19:26] <LeoBodnar> Cool
[19:27] <Laurenceb_> http://ph.parker.com/us/12051/en/x-valve-miniature-pneumatic-solenoid-valve/912-000001-011
[19:27] <Laurenceb_> would work
[19:27] <Tramvai> Is there a tutorial on how to build an antenna for the transmitter?
[19:27] <Laurenceb_> 0.76mm orifice
[19:27] <x-f> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payloadantenna
[19:28] <Steve_2e0vet> wire did the trick
[19:28] <x-f> Tramvai, this one won't be by us, but i can forward you the information when i know more, if you want to try tracking it
[19:28] <LeoBodnar> I have only considered butane because it is readily available in liquified form at room temperature
[19:28] <Tramvai> Oh, I won't be able to track it, I have the stock antenna and no preamp. :P
[19:29] <Laurenceb_> it also has a niceish vapour pressure profile
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[19:29] <Laurenceb_> id try with just a freezer bag full on the bottom first
[19:29] <Laurenceb_> to see what happens
[19:29] <Tramvai> Thank you for the link.
[19:29] <Laurenceb_> or if you have a freezer, fill a bag up and put it inside
[19:29] <x-f> you have a couple of days to build a receiving antenna :) and you can try without the preamp too
[19:30] <LeoBodnar> With butane gas?
[19:30] <Laurenceb_> with a valve you could try clever altitude control stuff, but thats for later
[19:30] <Laurenceb_> yes, lighter gas
[19:30] <LeoBodnar> OK, will try to.
[19:31] <Laurenceb_> those valves draw about 200ma, so you dont want to keep them open too long
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> 200mA is OK. Just to change state?
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> Or keep activated?
[19:31] <Laurenceb_> to keep in open state
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> Should be OK
[19:32] <Laurenceb_> theres a common port, then normally open and normally closed
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> Are they from Festo?
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> Oh, Parker, sorry
[19:33] <Laurenceb_> they seem to be ok for small sample quantities
[19:33] <Laurenceb_> we tried to order 50 for work stuff, and 10 week lead time :-/
[19:33] <Tramvai> Is there a tutorial for building a receiving antenna? :|
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> Haha, butane liquifies in standard atmosphere at 4730m
[19:35] <mfa298> Tramvai: you can use something similar to the payload antenna for recieving
[19:35] <LeoBodnar> Just let it drip back
[19:35] <Tramvai> Ah
[19:35] <mfa298> although it works best if you've got a reasonable location
[19:36] <mfa298> Most people buy some form of amateur radio antenna. Colinear for omni direction or yagi for directional
[19:36] <mfa298> and a magmount for mobile tracking in a car
[19:36] <Laurenceb_> yeah thats why i suggested a gas ties onto the bottom
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[19:36] <Laurenceb_> should stabilise around 5Km or so
[19:36] <LeoBodnar> So butane filled zero-pressure secondary balloon
[19:37] <Laurenceb_> yes
[19:37] <LeoBodnar> Maybe just sealed
[19:37] <Laurenceb_> a 5L freezer bag
[19:37] <LeoBodnar> Too easy to be tru
[19:37] <Laurenceb_> would prob work
[19:37] <Laurenceb_> with lighter fluid
[19:37] <Laurenceb_> only one way to find out
[19:37] <tweetBot> @daveake: #RaspberryPi #UKHAS Babbage jump covered on New Zealand TV http://t.co/q4ODNosIfW
[19:38] <Tramvai> Can you name an example antenna, mfa298?
[19:39] <LeoBodnar> Butane boils at 0ºC at normal atmospheric pressure?
[19:39] <mfa298> I think the W50/X50 are popular made by Watson or Diamond
[19:39] <Tramvai> Thanks
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[19:40] <LeoBodnar> Does it really?
[19:40] <x-f> i have that DIY 1/4 wave GP on the roof, can decode meteosondes near Visby (~450 km)
[19:40] <Laurenceb_> yes
[19:40] <mfa298> LeoBodnar: it's about that.
[19:40] <WillTablet> Hi
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> that's in Sweden right?
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> So how do cig lighters work in the winter time?
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> piezo ones?
[19:41] <mfa298> Butane isn't good for camping in cold weather (I've found out the hard way for that one - in April a few years ago)
[19:41] <x-f> Lunar_Lander, yes
[19:41] <LeoBodnar> So it stays liquid at below zero and won't come out?
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> I think the lighter itself should work ok
[19:42] <mfa298> if you're holding the lighter you're probably warming it a bit.
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> Butane has very steep vapour pressure curve which is goooood
[19:42] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[19:42] <mfa298> With the camping experience we got some gas out but not full pressure.
[19:42] <Laurenceb_> the enthalpy of vapourization is quite low
[19:42] <Laurenceb_> it doesn ttake much heat
[19:43] <LeoBodnar> This is good too because we have no time for warm ups
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[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> btw have a look at that http://gerblook.org/pcb/FYVcmxNA5wqF9Kq8Pn8cmU
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[19:47] <LeoBodnar> What's that cool RF looking coil for?
[19:49] <KT5TK_QRL> Lunar_Lander: Looks nice (a bit heavy for my taste, but definitely OK for regular balloons). Do you want to add a 6 pin programing header for the micro?
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> yeah the ICSP is there :)
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, L1?
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> that is part of the LC network with C7
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> atmel recommends that for AVCC in the datasheets
[19:49] <KT5TK_QRL> Ah, found it..
[19:49] <LeoBodnar> KT5TK_QRL: how heavy is light? :)
[19:50] <LeoBodnar> surely not wirewound?
[19:50] <KT5TK_QRL> Everything that's lighter than your trackers is light enough ;)
[19:50] <LeoBodnar> But it would be cool. I like large coils
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> Hehe, latest is 10.7g
[19:51] <KT5TK_QRL> That's cheating with solar...
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, no, normal inductor
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> It has a battery!
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander> http://uk.farnell.com/murata-power-solutions/13r333c/induktivitaet-33uh-10-1-8a-th-radial/dp/2062693?Ntt=2062693
[19:51] <KT5TK_QRL> Waiting for the uBlox Amy....
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> OK, maybe it is cheating a little bit
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> Have you bought it already?
[19:52] <KT5TK_QRL> Love to see your trackers at the conference. Are you coming?
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> I am going to do it every day and something always crops up
[19:53] <LeoBodnar> I can bring one for a laugh. I think everyone is taking their hardware with them?
[19:54] <KT5TK_QRL> Yea, I'll bring some Pecans, too
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[19:54] <Randomskk> be sure you don't lose it in your pocket or anything
[19:54] <craag> Lol Upu won't have access to his car all day...
[19:55] <LeoBodnar> Ah, OK Lunar_Lander it's a power inductor of sorts?
[19:55] <Upu> lol
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> well not really
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> just a normal 10 uH inductor
[19:55] Action: Lunar_Lander scratches his head
[19:55] <LeoBodnar> Crowbars work on different band
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:58] <LeoBodnar> The silkscreen confused me. Please don't pay attention. I should have looked first.
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> no problem
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> ah you mean because the symbol looks like it?
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> that is just a KiCAD package :)
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> sadly I can't upload a screenshot right now
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> but in #hackvana the people suggested to make a top layer GND patch around the RF pins of the NTX2 and the SMA
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[20:03] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: so you are saying that if I take pocket of sorts, fill it up with pure butane lighter gas and stick it in the freezer I should soon see it collapsing and containing just pure liquid?
[20:03] <jcoxon> ping Randomskk
[20:03] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:03] <Randomskk> hi jcoxon
[20:04] <jcoxon> stm32 question if thats okay
[20:04] <Randomskk> go for it
[20:04] <jcoxon> so getting RTTY stuff working
[20:04] <Randomskk> plenty of others here who know about stm32 as well
[20:04] <Randomskk> uh huh
[20:04] <Upu> hey KT5TK I have AMY's in stock now
[20:04] <jcoxon> first going old school with a delay function before i use timer
[20:04] <Randomskk> I saw an exciting sounding github repo from you today :p
[20:04] <Randomskk> ok
[20:05] <jcoxon> but struggling to work out how to make exact delays
[20:05] <Randomskk> asm("nop");
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu
[20:05] <Randomskk> asm("nop nop nop"); etc
[20:05] <Upu> hi Lunar
[20:05] <jcoxon> so is that 1 cycle
[20:05] <LeoBodnar> Then what the launch procedure would be with regard to free lift? You have to deduct the extra lifting force of the butane bag otherwise it will float at 4700m
[20:05] <Randomskk> yea
[20:05] <Randomskk> https://github.com/adamgreig/wombat/blob/master/code/delay.c
[20:05] <jcoxon> so in 1 second i do 168000000 of them
[20:05] <Randomskk> https://github.com/adamgreig/wombat/blob/master/code/delay.h
[20:05] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: the butane is heavier than air
[20:05] <Randomskk> well
[20:05] <Laurenceb_> when it condenses it becomes twice as heavy
[20:05] <Randomskk> in practice looping overheads will increase that
[20:06] <jcoxon> so if i want 50 baud
[20:06] <Randomskk> e.g. if you try to count 10000 of them you have to increment and compare and jump every time as well
[20:06] <KT5TK_QRL> Upu: Cool. Can you bring some for me?
[20:06] <Upu> ofc
[20:06] <Randomskk> jcoxon: I recommend copying liberally from the code ^
[20:06] <Randomskk> which has a delay function and a wrapper for delaying in ns and ms
[20:06] <KT5TK_QRL> AMY7?
[20:06] <Upu> no doesn't exist yet
[20:06] <Randomskk> though you might need to change the constants
[20:06] <LeoBodnar> Doesn't cortex have instruction piplining ?
[20:06] <Upu> these are the 6's
[20:06] <Upu> see PM
[20:06] <KT5TK_QRL> AMY6 are fine, tooo
[20:07] <Randomskk> LeoBodnar: enough NOPs still fills the pipeline
[20:07] <LeoBodnar> ah, but edges might get distorted?
[20:07] <Randomskk> nobody said it was pretty
[20:07] <Randomskk> yea, they could
[20:07] <jcoxon> Randomskk, why change the constants?
[20:07] <Randomskk> jcoxon: that's for my stm32f4
[20:07] <Randomskk> which is clocked at uhm
[20:08] <jcoxon> oh right
[20:08] <Randomskk> 120MHz maybe
[20:08] <jcoxon> thats why my code stealling didn't work
[20:08] <Randomskk> do you have a scope?
[20:08] <Randomskk> or a logic analyser?
[20:08] <jcoxon> nope
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[20:08] <jcoxon> nope
[20:08] <Randomskk> you should get a scope or a logic analyser ;)
[20:08] <Randomskk> hmm
[20:08] <Randomskk> well whatever
[20:08] <Randomskk> make it do a ten second delay
[20:08] <Randomskk> get a stopwatch
[20:08] <Randomskk> time that delay
[20:08] <Randomskk> adjust the constant accordingly, it's linear
[20:08] <LeoBodnar> What's wrong with interrupts?
[20:09] <Randomskk> LeoBodnar: this is a bit simpler to start with
[20:09] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, oh its purely me learning the stm32
[20:09] <Randomskk> in theory :P
[20:09] <Randomskk> jcoxon: so for instance if you time 8 seconds you need 25% bigger constants
[20:09] <LeoBodnar> Ah, OK, interrupts are a bit scary on ARM
[20:09] <Laurenceb_> NVIC makes it nice
[20:09] <WillTablet> I have a logic analyser. It's awesome, and worth the money, with a student discount :-)
[20:09] <Laurenceb_> and very epic
[20:09] <Randomskk> yea stm32 interrupts are happy
[20:10] <LeoBodnar> Yes, so free lift
[20:10] <Laurenceb_> heh
[20:10] <LeoBodnar> AT launch you are displacing some air so the free lift is higher
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:11] <LeoBodnar> You need to make sure it does not collapses to zero when butane liquifies, right?
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> no
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> you need to make sure it goes negative when it liquid
[20:11] <jcoxon> Randomskk, thanks
[20:12] <LeoBodnar> I don't want it to drift at 4700m
[20:12] <jcoxon> and yes very cool potential project
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> oh i see
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> combo superpressure/phase change ballonett
[20:12] <LeoBodnar> I want 4700m to be a safety catch if it goes down from a higher altitude say 8000m
[20:12] <LeoBodnar> yes
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> nice plan
[20:13] <LeoBodnar> Qualatex + PVC bag full of butane
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> polythene
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> surely
[20:13] <LeoBodnar> or maybe Durex?! :)
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> lol
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> it needs to be pretty big
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> O3+UV not good for Durex I guess
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> id say 5L
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> Sound like 5L can go inside the main envelope
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> 1mole is 24L at stp
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> and weighs 58grams
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> giving 29grams lift loss when it condenses
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> then multiply volume by 2 as lower pressure
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> i get ~5L
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> So it increases in volume before it starts condensing?
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> you cant put it in with the helium or you get partial pressure effects
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> Ah, yes
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[20:16] <LeoBodnar> ANd higher thermal constant
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> butane on its own should be a lot faster and a cleaner response
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> AGreed
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> I'll do an experiment tomorrow
[20:19] <LeoBodnar> I've cancelled my methanol order with SA. They are fecking idiots
[20:19] <Laurenceb_> heh
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> yeah butane looks nicer
[20:20] <LeoBodnar> Sent me tonnes of paperwork to fill and held the order. I told them instead of buying 100ml for £40 in a week from them I can get 5L fro £19 tomorrow from Amazon
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> ive only ever ordered from work
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[20:22] <Laurenceb_> i was wondering what stopped anyone from ordering tons of dodgy stuff
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> i seem to be able to buy anything off there with my card and ship to work address, no questions
[20:22] <LeoBodnar> Idiots. bureaucratic idiots
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: I ordered stuff without problems.
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> as we have a business account at same address
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Start out with list of chemical suppliers.
[20:23] <LeoBodnar> It's to open an account I am sure after you are vetted it's OK
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Phone them all in turn 'i'd like to place a small private order by credit card'
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Shortly after, the barrel of sulphuric acid turned up.
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> heh
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> it seemed like a good idea at the time.
[20:25] <LeoBodnar> The only other bureaucratic maniacs I have delt with were Lockheed Martin
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[20:38] <Laurenceb_> #chibios is dead :-/
[20:38] <Laurenceb_> how do i synchronise two slave threads with a master thread on an RTOS?
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[20:39] <ibanezmatt13_> that didn't work
[20:39] <ibanezmatt13_> chrisstubbs: could you fire up that pm again?
[20:40] <Laurenceb_> i guess i could be nasty and use a global volatile uint8_t as a flag
[20:40] <Laurenceb_> very naughty
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[20:41] <Laurenceb_> oh wiat
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> threads go to sleep, master thread makes them both up in an atomic block?
[20:41] <LeoBodnar> Semaphores?
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> they are from one thread to another tho?
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> not between 3 threads
[20:43] <Laurenceb_> i think awaking the threads is the way to do it
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[20:45] <WillTablet> LeoBodnar methanol, what for?
[20:45] <Laurenceb_> in fact im already using that technique to align to a timer interrupt
[20:45] <LeoBodnar> Can two threads wait for a resource released by main thread?
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> R&D WillTablet, harmless scientific experiments
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> THey didn't trust me still
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> atm all my sensor threads on my phd project are awaken by timer interrupts
[20:47] <WillTablet> What's it for?
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> but i find sometimes theres an offset of integer number of timer periods between them
[20:47] <WillTablet> What use is it
[20:48] <Laurenceb_> so they need to be aligned with the main thread that handles USB comms
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[20:49] <LeoBodnar> My RTOS knowledge is patchy. Can you use system tick timer as a reference and tell all the threads when do their stuff?
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> thats almost how it works atm
[20:50] <WillTablet> How are you experimenting with methanol?
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> You can't guarantee 100% timing alignment due to system interrupts firing up at unknown times
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> to synchronise sample rates
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> but it doesnt syncronise the times from the start of the experiment
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> yeah im using DMA for the really critical stuff
[20:51] <WillTablet> LeoBodnar I don't understand what you wanna use it for?
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> boring things like subject body temperature is not so vital
[20:51] <LeoBodnar> WillTablet: I have to get it first but it looks like I won't now
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> i could easily do it by hand but i got obsessed and automated entire experiment via F4 discovery
[20:51] <WillTablet> But do you know what you're doing with it?
[20:52] <LeoBodnar> Maybe you should sample all sensors that needs alignment in one thread
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> yeah, but some of them have different sample rates and stuff
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> it gets rather complex
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> I have an attention span of 5 characters and is full of eels
[20:53] <WillTablet> LeoBodnar do you know what you'll do with it or did you just decide you wanted methanol?
[20:53] <Randomskk> I'm sure there are primitives that'd work
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> theres a fair bit of resampling in an octave script running on the attached pc..
[20:53] <Randomskk> can't you have two threads wait on one syncrhonisation primitive
[20:53] <Randomskk> and have the master thread release it
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> WillTablet: to stick it in the balloon
[20:54] <WillTablet> Oh how does thathe
[20:54] <WillTablet> Help?
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: its ok to have multiple threads waiting on one synchronisation primitive?
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> ah i didnt realise that - even simpler
[20:54] <mfa298> WillTablet: generally people have an idea of what they're going to do with things before buying it.
[20:54] <Randomskk> hmm
[20:54] <Randomskk> depends if the threads acquire it
[20:55] <Randomskk> if they need to acquire it then no
[20:55] <Randomskk> as only one can acquire
[20:55] <Randomskk> but otherwise yes
[20:55] <Randomskk> e.g. it'd be okay with a flag
[20:55] <WillTablet> mfa298 ok
[20:55] <WillTablet> http://www.chemiphase.co.uk/methanol-99-85-virgin-grade/
[20:55] <LeoBodnar> So wait but don't acquire
[20:55] <Randomskk> yea
[20:55] <Randomskk> but you might find an event flag better?
[20:55] <WillTablet> What would it do in the balloon?
[20:55] <Randomskk> or tbh I like agents and message passing
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> probably
[20:55] <Randomskk> erlang style
[20:55] <Randomskk> less efficient but
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> all i need to do is awake the threads
[20:55] <Randomskk> easier to conceptualise
[20:55] <Randomskk> have both threads wait on their mailboxes
[20:55] <Randomskk> have the master send a message to each thread
[20:55] <WillTablet> There seems to be a lot of websites offering it
[20:56] <Randomskk> one will go first but that's inevitable anyway
[20:56] <Randomskk> they'll essentially go at the same time
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> yeah but i was worried about the master getting blocked
[20:56] <Randomskk> especially if you send both messages inside one atomic bloc
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> inbetween writing to the seconds
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> yeah that way works
[20:56] <WillTablet> Does it have special thermodynamic properties?
[20:56] <LeoBodnar> I have decided not to get it WillTablet, but thanks for checking it!
[20:56] <Randomskk> chibios is so cool.
[20:56] <Randomskk> I should do something with it again
[20:57] <LeoBodnar> Is it free/cheap?
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> im doing my PhD with it XD
[20:57] <Randomskk> free and open source
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> its opensource
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:57] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: maybe if I could think of what to do my PhD in I could use it in that :P
[20:57] <LeoBodnar> Grrr, too many options!
[20:57] <Randomskk> LeoBodnar: it's cuter than FreeRTOS
[20:57] <Randomskk> which is the only real competitor for an RTOS that's free I think?
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> mostly im using it for a fairly dumb data collection board using F4 discovery
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> but its better than labview stuff....
[20:58] <WillTablet> LeoBodnar sorry do you mind explaining what it does in a balloon?
[20:58] <Randomskk> doesn't take much
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[20:59] <Laurenceb_> theres an official ARM RTOS now
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> part of CMSIS
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> open and free
[20:59] <Randomskk> oh really
[20:59] <Randomskk> sweet
[20:59] <LeoBodnar> Is it truly free? Even for commercial, money grabbing, profiteering, rotting kapitalist purposes?
[20:59] <Randomskk> ARM are doing a good job on this open source stuff supporting CM these days
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> yes
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[20:59] <Laurenceb_> after they acquired Kiel
[20:59] <Randomskk> what's the ARM RTOS like?
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> dunno
[20:59] <Randomskk> hmm
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> it seems a little limited
[20:59] <Randomskk> well chibiOS is still cuter
[21:00] <Randomskk> but it's nice that ARM are doing something
[21:00] <Laurenceb_> and doesnt have integrated HAL
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[21:00] <Randomskk> oh huh that's a little annoying I guess
[21:00] <Randomskk> though to be honest you shouldn't need it if you already have good device drivers
[21:00] <Randomskk> which ARM should really be doing
[21:00] <Randomskk> if anything having to use chibi's HAL is a bit silly
[21:00] <Randomskk> means chibi has to support a driver for every chip really
[21:00] <Randomskk> which is a faff too
[21:00] <LeoBodnar> WillTablet: the idea was to make it condense at altitude/low temperature and reduce buoyancy of the balloon but if it starts falling the opposite process kicks in and helps it stay afloat.
[21:00] <Laurenceb_> http://www.arm.com/products/processors/cortex-m/cortex-microcontroller-software-interface-standard.php
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> check out "version 3"
[21:01] <Randomskk> oh cuute
[21:01] <Randomskk> last time I used CMSIS it was just startup code
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> theres an "RTOS-API" and also they have their own reference implementation
[21:01] <Randomskk> didn't realise it's now also got a HAL thing
[21:02] <LeoBodnar> When I started using RTOS I found myself rewriting it. I know they can probably deal with this condition now.
[21:02] <mikestir> ping upu
[21:04] <Upu> hi mikestir
[21:04] <WillTablet> ping Upu
[21:05] <Upu> hi will
[21:05] <LeoBodnar> ping Upu
[21:05] <mikestir> hi upu. just wondering: did you actually try the RFM69W below 2.4V at all?
[21:05] <WillTablet> When are you available to help with the PCB?
[21:05] <mikestir> or did you not bother when you read the datasheet?
[21:06] <WillTablet> LeoBodnar, I thought it's a
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[21:06] <WillTablet> liquid
[21:06] <WillTablet> How does it condense
[21:06] <Upu-> hey Mike I've not tried it at all
[21:06] <Upu-> but it doesn't work @ 1.8V
[21:06] <Upu-> Hi Leo :P
[21:06] <mikestir> well this one works at 1.5V
[21:06] <Upu-> and no Will :)
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> "Keil/ARM provides the RTX Kernel with a CMSIS-RTOS interface under a open-source BSD license. The kernel is adapted for ARMCC, GCC, and IAR compilers"
[21:07] <Upu-> its not spec'd for that
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> It is a liquid but some of it evaporates just like at room temperature water evaporates and creates humidity in the air.
[21:07] <mikestir> well I know, but the SX1231H appears to be exactly the same as the SX1231 apart from the PA, and the latter is specced to 1.8V
[21:07] <mikestir> and the RFM69W (not HW) doesn't use the boost PA
[21:07] <Upu-> I asked Hope and they said no
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[21:08] <mikestir> hmm
[21:08] <mikestir> I don't know why the didn't use the non-H version in the non-H version of the module
[21:08] <LeoBodnar> Just wanted to say Hi!.
[21:08] <mikestir> they*
[21:08] <WillTablet> Upu- is methanol not a liquid or are you unavailable to help me at any point with the PCB?
[21:09] <Upu-> see if someone else can assist with the PCB sorry
[21:09] <Upu-> afk dog walk
[21:09] <WillTablet> Oh are you busy this week? Chrisstubs did help me with it
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[21:09] <WillTablet> And said it was ok
[21:10] <LeoBodnar> WillTablet: you need to find an innocent way of disposing of your creative energy! :D
[21:11] <WillTablet> What do you mean?
[21:12] <LeoBodnar> If you do PCB design 24x7 you can burn yourself out and lose interest for the rest of your life.
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[21:14] <LeoBodnar> Do they still sell cigarette lighters in supermarkets? Or other sources of butane?
[21:14] <Randomskk> supermarkets infrequently
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> you can buy lighter refill canisters
[21:14] <Randomskk> but like, small corner shops, yes
[21:15] <Randomskk> and markets and things
[21:15] <Randomskk> I bought some butane for my blowtorch from a dodgy guy at the headshop in the market
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[21:15] <Randomskk> it was like £2 for a huge bottle
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:15] <Randomskk> but corner shops are good too
[21:15] <Randomskk> tobbaccionists
[21:15] <Randomskk> _some_ supermarkets might but e.g. sainsburies recently stopped doing that
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> just trying some freezer bags here ... i dont have any butane
[21:15] <mfa298> local asda did have butane gas refils a couple of years ago - not tried getting more recently
[21:16] <Laurenceb_> wilkinson pedal bin liners look ok
[21:16] <Laurenceb_> around 6L
[21:16] <LeoBodnar> That's a lot of lighters
[21:16] <Laurenceb_> 2gram mass
[21:17] <LeoBodnar> Camper equipment?
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> http://www.amazon.co.uk/NEWPORT-Purified-Butane-Lighter-Gas/dp/B0022AL2DA/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1
[21:17] <WillTablet> LeoBodnar haven't done PCB work for a week.
[21:17] <Stratos> hey everyone, does anyone know a good trajectory predictor?
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> enough for a lot of balloons there
[21:17] <WillTablet> Can't find anyone to help. Will ask tomorrow
[21:17] <Stratos> I saw on the ukhas site that there was an hourly predictor
[21:18] <Randomskk> Stratos: http://habhub.org/predict
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[21:19] <Randomskk> if you have a launch in mind we can set up a thing like http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/cambridge/ which runs a prediction for every hour for the next week or whatever, from a specific site, with a specific ascent rate, burst altitude and descent rate
[21:19] <Laurenceb_> hmm this is too tempting
[21:19] Action: Laurenceb_ has found some butane
[21:19] <Laurenceb_> and i have a freezer
[21:19] <Randomskk> lol
[21:20] <LeoBodnar> http://www.tesco.com/direct/butane-gas-refill/554-8279.prd Tesco sells Maplin
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> got about 3L from floor polish
[21:22] <LeoBodnar> I can has some butanez
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> its in the freezer
[21:23] <LeoBodnar> OK, 20min?
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:25] <LeoBodnar> Have you looked yet?
[21:26] <jcoxon> Randomskk, bingo
[21:26] <Laurenceb_> hmm maybe its using propane
[21:26] <jcoxon> basically i setup a rtty string to be tx'd and then scaled up the delay and left dl-fldigi running
[21:27] <LeoBodnar> So the cost of this solution if it works is 2g + plastic bag weight?
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerosol_spray#Aerosol_propellants
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> more than that
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> about 6g
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> for 3g delta mass
[21:28] <Laurenceb_> theres some condensation on bag and about 50% volume change
[21:28] <Laurenceb_> i dont think its 100% butane
[21:28] <Laurenceb_> going to try with teeny bag and lighter
[21:28] <Randomskk> jcoxon: and it worked?
[21:30] <LeoBodnar> Yes, it needs to be pure butane to declare it did or did not work.
[21:30] <Laurenceb_> problem: its an electric lighter
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> if i fire it, ill "fire" it
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> Haha
[21:31] <Randomskk> do it outside perhaps
[21:31] <Randomskk> :P
[21:31] <Randomskk> I'm sure you can improvise some kind of heat shield
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> If you don't report back we are worried.
[21:32] <Randomskk> even some boiling water in a wide pan will probably give off a reasonable amount of heat
[21:32] <Laurenceb_> not much gas volume in there things
[21:32] <Randomskk> shc water is good
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> ok in freezer
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> i also put the lighter in for simpler test
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> if i cant get gas out of the lighter ill know its working
[21:35] <LeoBodnar> Air density at 4800m is 0.75g/L so 5L will displace 3.75g worth of lifting force air, is this what you meant by 3g delta mass?
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> yes
[21:37] <LeoBodnar> But 5L @ 4800m is 2.5L at 1atm
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[21:40] <LeoBodnar> That's a bout 6g butane, right?
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[21:40] <Laurenceb_> yes
[21:40] Action: SpeedEvil looks at his roll of polythene tube, and his container of butane,
[21:40] <LeoBodnar> I hope this all in no way distracts you from writing the thesis? XD
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> ]hehe
[21:41] <LeoBodnar> You need a walk-in freezer SpeedEvil
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: my freezer is only 300l
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> coincidentally, I have been considering making a walk in environment chamber
[21:42] <LeoBodnar> OK, fill it up full of butane and if you can't open it tomorrow it has worked!
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> it does that even with air sometimes
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[21:44] <LeoBodnar> LeoBodnar is considering sticking all aerosol cans in the freezer overnight and checking if they work in the morning
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[21:45] <SpeedEvil> they don't
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> aerosols tend to stop working at about 3c
[21:45] <LeoBodnar> That's what we need
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> it got cold a couple of winters ago.
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> yeah some more condensation
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> and lighter not working
[21:46] <LeoBodnar> good good goog
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> i got too much air into the bag to see volume change
[21:46] <LeoBodnar> any condensation?
[21:46] <LeoBodnar> Oh you said yes
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> the condensation disappears very quickly
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> unlike water
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> due to the low vapour pressure
[21:47] <LeoBodnar> I want to do it now
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> its only there for a few seconds
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[21:48] <SpeedEvil> cr2032 + led + binoculars
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_ethyl_ether
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> apparently used in aerosols
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> I like "medicine-like odour"
[21:53] <LeoBodnar> Boiling point is a bit high
[21:54] <jcoxon> Randomskk, yeah needed a delay of 570000
[21:54] <jcoxon> for 50 baud
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[22:00] <Randomskk> cool
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> you know you can set the usart to 50baud on stm32
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> i think...
[22:01] <LeoBodnar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_refrigerator uses butane
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> hehe that sounds clever
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[22:02] <Laurenceb_> a real smartfridge
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> ok yeah its pretty smart
[22:04] <Laurenceb_> haha i met Malcolm McCulloch
[22:04] <Laurenceb_> was working in the next lab for a while
[22:05] <LeoBodnar> So have they made it yet?
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> dunno i left around then
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> they were trying to get me to do a PhD on minireactors
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> prob better than what im working on now :-S
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> apart from the whole plutonium thing
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[22:06] <Laurenceb_> im not too keen on that stuff
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[22:08] <LeoBodnar> controversial at the least
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[22:09] <LeoBodnar> What's in the freezer ?
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> this sort of stuff is also harder if you are not a US citizen
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> there used to be some interesting DARPA projects going on
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> on stirling generators and stuff
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> im tempted to try for US citizenship
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> my half brother lives in Florida
[22:12] <LeoBodnar> I used to have very pacifist views when I was a student which didn't help
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> im pretty pacifist
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> nothing wrong with nuclear power tho
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> ok lighter out of freezer
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> no gas at all
[22:14] <LeoBodnar> cool!
[22:14] <LeoBodnar> (literally!)
[22:14] <Randomskk> lol
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> still no gas
[22:14] <Randomskk> good timing
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> and gas
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> takes about 4 minutes or so
[22:16] <Randomskk> science in action
[22:17] <LeoBodnar> OK, so it is still butane, it didn't turn into wine?
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> or gold...
[22:17] <x-f> hah
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> http://www.geekosystem.com/poop-into-gold/
[22:18] <LeoBodnar> OK, this madness sounds like it deserves flying
[22:19] <KT5TK_QRL> Note that the outside pressure is also ~0.7 bar lower at a flying balloon, so gas may easily come out though it's cold up there...
[22:20] <LeoBodnar> ping Moran: we need your help
[22:20] <Laurenceb_> <KT5TK_QRL>: we looked at that - applied an atmospheric model
[22:22] <LeoBodnar> OK, I think I'll try to have some sleep
[22:22] <KT5TK_QRL> Sorry, I'm at work and I didn't read up everything before. It sounds like an interesting idea though...
[22:22] <LeoBodnar> It's international Butane day tomorrow
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[22:23] <LeoBodnar> Oh, sleepwalking eroomde ?
[22:23] <eroomde> still just awake
[22:23] <Laurenceb_> heh
[22:24] <LeoBodnar> What happened to the bag Laurenceb_ ?
[22:24] <LeoBodnar> Butane is not dissolvable in water isn't it?
[22:24] <Laurenceb_> i got air in there
[22:24] <Laurenceb_> this is faffy
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> i think you need some aquarium hose onto the valve of the canister
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> there was some condensation
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[22:25] <Laurenceb_> seems to be butane condensation, it evaporates really fast
[22:26] <LeoBodnar> Does it change volume when doing that?
[22:26] <Laurenceb_> yes
[22:26] <LeoBodnar> Good!
[22:26] <Laurenceb_> but it doesnt scrump up nicely
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> prob cuz i got air in
[22:27] <LeoBodnar> Because of air
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> need pure putane and a hose
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> *butane
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> unless you are russian
[22:27] <LeoBodnar> Funnily enough I am XD
[22:30] <LeoBodnar> Is there a massive chemical database where you can do parametric search on boiling points, flammability, etc like parametric search for electronic components?
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> other than wolfram alpha and wikipedia i dont know
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[22:30] <Laurenceb_> theres lots of proprietor software packages
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[22:32] <LeoBodnar> We just need something with steep vapour curve that liquifies at standard atmospheric condition at between 4000 and 6000m and ideally non-toxic and non-flammable.
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[22:33] <LeoBodnar> low enthalpy of vapourisation
[22:33] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[22:33] <LeoBodnar> So simple, and it's 21st century
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> unfortunately the internets are full of cat photos
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> not thermodynamics databases
[22:34] <LeoBodnar> Should be just able to as iPhone to go find it and fetch a few litres of it.
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> yeah
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[22:35] <Laurenceb_> the wikipedia data pages thing seems fairly new and quite nice
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> but its not a database
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> and very incomplete atm
[22:35] <LeoBodnar> yeah, I thought you had access to some sort of db via your work
[22:36] <Laurenceb_> maybe...
[22:36] <Laurenceb_> ill have to investigate
[22:37] <LeoBodnar> I have a few chemist friends but the are not physicists so vaporisation is nothing to them
[22:37] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_databases_for_pure_substances#External_links
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> http://webbook.nist.gov/
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> IR spectra for over 16,000 compounds <- nice
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> http://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/cbook.cgi?ID=C106978&Units=SI&Mask=4#Thermo-Phase
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> Antoine Equation Parameters
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> that looks good
[22:43] <LeoBodnar> http://www.thermart.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/MiniFreed7.8.1.zip
[22:45] <LeoBodnar> No organic chemicals :-\
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> the nist thing does
[22:46] <joph> Laurenceb, ask a chemistry student
[22:47] <joph> they have access to such databases through univeristy
[22:50] <LeoBodnar> Very cool for open database
[22:50] <LeoBodnar> OK, nighty night!
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[22:55] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNRDc714W5I&feature=player_embedded
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[00:00] --- Thu Aug 29 2013