highaltitude.log.20130825

[00:00] <mfa298> so to have equivalent heating potential of a 40W incandescent bulb you'd need two of those panels (and probably spend the same again on a suitable 12V PSU)
[00:00] <WillTablet> mfa298 a lot of other students end up with wikipedia ref numbers in their homework.
[00:00] <mfa298> 40W is the lowest wattage bulb you could generally get of the standard shape.
[00:01] <WillTablet> He'd currently using a car 12volt battery
[00:03] <mfa298> if it's a car bulb you'de need to find out what wattage it is, they range from 5W to 50W for standard bulbs
[00:04] <mfa298> on a different note if you want to learn a bit about electronics getting something like http://www.amazon.co.uk/200-1-Electronic-Project-Lab/dp/B000LRCD6Q could be worthwhile
[00:04] <WillTablet> Androirc has crashed
[00:04] <WillTablet> I can't see what anyone's said
[00:05] <WillTablet> So err, if you had a good answer to something tell me after I'm back on
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[00:06] <WillTablet> So did anyone say anything?
[00:06] <mfa298> what was the last bit you saw
[00:06] <WillTablet> Not surr
[00:06] <WillTablet> Sure
[00:06] <mfa298> the three bits I said after the last bit you commented on are:
[00:07] <mfa298> 01:00 < mfa298> 40W is the lowest wattage bulb you could generally get of the standard shape.
[00:07] <mfa298> 01:03 < mfa298> if it's a car bulb you'de need to find out what wattage it is, they range from 5W to 50W for standard bulbs
[00:07] <WillTablet> the second
[00:07] <mfa298> 01:04 < mfa298> on a different note if you want to learn a bit about electronics getting something like http://www.amazon.co.uk/200-1-Electronic-Project-Lab/dp/B000LRCD6Q could be worthwhile
[00:08] <WillTablet> Not for 70 quid
[00:08] <mfa298> there are lots of alternatives - that was one of the first results I found (and a kit I had when I was younger)
[00:11] <WillTablet> Back in the day
[00:11] <WillTablet> When we had 56k internet
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[00:12] <WillTablet> :-)
[00:12] <mfa298> nope, didn't have internet then.
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[00:13] <mfa298> and I I did have internet it would have been more like 33k or slower, costing £15/month + call charges (probably national rate)
[00:14] <mfa298> but for learning about resistors, capacitors, transistors and simple digital chips a kit like that is well worth having
[00:14] <mfa298> (maybe ask for one for christmas)
[00:15] <mfa298> anyhow it's well past my bedtime and I should be asleep
[00:16] <WillTablet> Trying to figure the best way to control heating with an arduino
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[00:23] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_away
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[00:39] <KT5TK> I wonder where those boys got their big balloon from? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGlJADH_2U8
[00:47] <WillTablet> Wow looking at computing gcse.
[00:47] <WillTablet> It never specifies a language for the project.
[00:47] <WillTablet> I could do brainfuck :-)
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[02:15] Nick change: Joel_re_ -> joel_re
[02:15] Nick change: joel_re -> Joel_re
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[02:36] <dkunzler> Hello, I have a newbie question: I'm going to launch a HAB and I'm concerned about RFM module radio power. In my country I'm using 915Mhz RFM42B in max power (+20dBm), do you think it will be enough to track HAB from a stationary base?
[02:38] <tweetBot> @s_o_s_72218691: Awesome! "@daveake: Highest pic from Babbage #RaspberryPi #UKHAS http://t.co/vdyfp6Jjnm"
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[03:11] <KT5TK> dkunzler: What do you receive the signal with? In which country are you?
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[03:52] <Joel_re> do you guys calculate altitude considering geodal separation values?
[03:52] <Darkside> uhm
[03:52] <Darkside> nope
[03:52] <Darkside> we just use the alt straight from the GPS
[03:53] <Joel_re> is that ideal?
[03:54] <Joel_re> was looking at http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~geoff36/datum.htm
[04:01] <KT5TK> We all use WGS84. The vertical error of regular GPS receivers is so big that the exact datum is irrelevant for determination of the altitude
[04:01] <KT5TK> To find and recover the payload, simply use a GPS receiver that uses the same datum
[04:05] <Joel_re> hmm
[04:22] <tweetBot> @DieselDanJr: Holy Dooley. A teddy bear and balloon @ 39+km "@daveake: Highest pic from Babbage #RaspberryPi #UKHAS http://t.co/LfEzuOPFoQ"
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[04:38] <Joel_re> $GPVTG,344.78,T,,M,0.23,N,0.43,K,A*372
[04:39] <Joel_re> does that look valid?
[04:39] <Joel_re> at the end, between A*372
[04:39] <Joel_re> should A have a , after it?
[04:39] <Joel_re> all checksums should start with * ?
[04:42] <KT5TK> $GPVTG is not very much used, but valid. The checksum is strange.... Should this be hexadecimal?
[04:43] <KT5TK> http://aprs.gids.nl/nmea/#vtg
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[04:56] <Joel_re> ok
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[06:52] <tweetBot> @daveake: #RaspberryPi #UKHAS @Raspberry_Pi Time-Lapse of yesterday's rather windy launch of Bionic Babbage http://t.co/SSmLflidiJ
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[07:29] <fz_> Hi all, We are writing the soft for our first hab and we would want to minimise hab rookie mistakes. Quick question: What is the best way of sending telemetry + low res photos through the same Tx?. Send a) telemetry, b) then photos c) repeat? Or is it better to send telemetry a couple of times just in case?
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[07:31] <fz_> Generalized question: How many times you guys usually send the same 'package'?
[07:31] <daveake> 1
[07:31] <daveake> :)
[07:32] <daveake> I think most people probably re-use, but I just like making, erm, unqique payloads.
[07:32] <Darkside> lol
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[07:32] <daveake> unique
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[07:33] <Darkside> just like your spelling
[07:33] <KT5TK> Maybe we should register a record for the most re-launched payload
[07:33] <Darkside> heh
[07:33] <daveake> haha
[07:33] <Darkside> we've been using the same payload box sinc horus 5
[07:33] <Darkside> the tracker inside it has changed a few times
[07:34] <KT5TK> We have a KPC3 tracker that we keep launching since the late 90s
[07:34] <Darkside> though terry's original 'nut' board has been launched 10 tims i think
[07:34] <daveake> I think my most-launched tracker did 7, then the ublox expired
[07:34] <KT5TK> It was on board BLT34, too
[07:35] <daveake> mmmm BLT
[07:35] <KT5TK> Dave, I'm in South England next week
[07:36] <daveake> Ah cool, doing what?
[07:36] <KT5TK> I'll make a tour with my wife
[07:37] <daveake> enjoy the rain :p
[07:37] <Darkside> haha
[07:38] <KT5TK> Some National Parks like Exmoor & Dartmoor
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[07:38] <KT5TK> I hope it'll be not too bad
[07:38] <WillTablet> Morning
[07:38] <KT5TK> (the weather)
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[07:39] <KT5TK> I'll have APRS in my car
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[07:40] <KT5TK> Has anyone a recommendation what we shouldn't miss in that region?
[07:41] <daveake> Stonehenge if you like seeing tourists; Avebury (for stones)
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[07:42] <daveake> Caen Hill locks on the canal at Devizes
[07:42] <eroomde_> morn
[07:42] <KT5TK> Yeah, I've been there 20 yrs ago, but we have Avebury on our route
[07:42] <number10> cusf relaunch the same payload box quite a few times - bet they have the record
[07:42] <eroomde_> i made a box that has seen 5+ flights i think
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[07:43] <arko> marnin
[07:43] <eroomde_> probably the cusp one you're thinking of
[07:43] <number10> the one that adam made an extra hole in last year
[07:43] <eroomde_> this one http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4721971075/in/set-72157624203062811
[07:43] <number10> yes
[07:43] <eroomde_> like a dagger to my heart
[07:43] <number10> :)
[07:43] <KT5TK> daveake: Caen Hill locks = Interesting tip. Thanks
[07:44] <daveake> Yeah I really like that
[07:47] <WillTablet> Hi eroomde_
[07:47] <eroomde_> yo
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[07:49] <WillTablet> KT5TK are you visiting the uk?
[07:51] <KT5TK> Yes, but just for a week and then the UKHAS conference
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[08:01] <arko> KT5TK: oh sweet, i wont be the only american there
[08:01] <WillTablet> Basingstoke is an amazing site.
[08:01] <KT5TK> Yes and no
[08:01] <WillTablet> There's an indoor skydiving centre
[08:02] <KT5TK> I'm really a German Citizen..
[08:02] <WillTablet> KT5TK is someone I've ignored saying something
[08:02] <WillTablet> I can't see who you're replying to
[08:03] <arko> ah cool
[08:03] <KT5TK> Arko Anyways, will be nice to meet you there
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[08:03] <arko> :)
[08:03] <arko> likewise
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[08:06] <Guest53523> I have a couple of questions about the NORB flight yesterday - I live about 10km north of Huntingdon and picked up strong signals from it (well, I think its it....).
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[08:09] <Guest53523> Was tx frequency drifting a lot - especially at the start? (I was using a new rtl-sdr so I'm unsure if that was the cause or NORB itself was drifting)
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[08:12] <Guest53523> Can anyone confirm it was using 300N2 with 425Hz carrier shift? This is my first time with RTTY and I don't seem to be having much luck in decoding it.
[08:13] <WillTablet> 300N2 is excessive
[08:13] <WillTablet> Just a bit don't you think?
[08:13] <WillTablet> 300 stop bits
[08:13] <WillTablet> :-)
[08:13] <Guest53523> whoops.
[08:13] <WillTablet> Try Rv in dl-fldigi
[08:14] <Guest53523> 300-8N2
[08:14] <WillTablet> Yeah if you're using dl-fldigi then try the Rv button
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[08:16] <Guest53523> Yeah, I'm playing with dl-fldigi for the first time - normally I use multimon/gnuradio for the satellites.
[08:16] <Guest53523> Didn't notice the Rv button....
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[08:17] <LazyLeopard> The announced settings were 300baud, 8N2, 450Hz shift, 434.650 MHz, but reality will have played a bit with those.
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[08:18] <KT5TK> Did B-10 go up and down again?
[08:18] <Guest53523> Thanks.
[08:18] <LazyLeopard> At 300 you'll need the bandwidth set wide or you'll get nothing. 450 shift is a bit narrow for 300.
[08:18] <KT5TK> Did B-10 go up and down again?
[08:21] <arko> B-10 will do whatever it wants man
[08:22] <arko> it doesn't follow rules :)
[08:22] <KT5TK> Yeah nice...
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[08:29] <LeoBodnar> morning
[08:29] <fsphil> morn
[08:30] <arko> Leo your habs having a lot of fun
[08:30] <LeoBodnar> Any idea what happened to B-10 ?
[08:30] <LeoBodnar> IT must have either shed ice or warmed up and refloated again?!
[08:30] <KT5TK> It jumped up for a while
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[08:31] <LeoBodnar> It's raining a lot here now
[08:31] <fsphil> that is weird
[08:31] <arko> it had to keep the tradition of B flights not having normal alt profiles
[08:31] <fsphil> it could have been kicked up by the wind
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[08:31] <fsphil> a partially inflated foil balloon would be a good chute
[08:32] <LeoBodnar> It had a healthy climb to almost 1000m
[08:33] <LeoBodnar> I reckon rain brought it down second time
[08:33] <KT5TK> ... then the rain came...
[08:33] <RocketBoy> the B10 re-float fits in with my thermal lag collapse theory
[08:33] <LeoBodnar> Agree
[08:33] <WillTablet> KT5TK come to Basingstoke
[08:33] <WillTablet> It's amazing
[08:33] <LeoBodnar> No time to warm up during descent
[08:33] <WillTablet> :-)
[08:33] <RocketBoy> yeah - lag - the balloon is always colder
[08:34] <KT5TK> WillTablet: was reading about Basingstoke. Will consider it
[08:34] <fsphil> could it relaunch during the day?
[08:34] <RocketBoy> until it gets to the ground - when it warms up to the surrounding air
[08:34] <fsphil> or when this rain stops?
[08:34] <RocketBoy> yea
[08:34] <RocketBoy> h
[08:34] <RocketBoy> but there is normally not much rain above 3000ft
[08:35] <WillTablet> KT5TK. We have indoor skydiving.
[08:35] <WillTablet> If you want an average English town. Do Basingstoke.
[08:36] <RocketBoy> James C had something similar - a flight came down overnight - was found by the famed - put in a barn
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[08:36] <ibanezmatt13> Morning
[08:36] <RocketBoy> when james got there it was floating again
[08:36] <WillTablet> Hi ibanezmatt13
[08:37] <ibanezmatt13> Hi Will
[08:37] <KT5TK> Yes, it's on our way back to London. Not sure about skydiving, but if I do it I'd probably want the real thing ;)
[08:37] <WillTablet> Which road are you passing?
[08:38] <WillTablet> Winchester might be a bit more interesting.
[08:38] <Randomskk> winchester is pretty wonderful
[08:38] <ibanezmatt13> I went to Winchester not long aago, very nice
[08:38] <Randomskk> the market is lovely, the cathedral is cool, plus the high street looks right out of the 1600s
[08:39] <ibanezmatt13> yea, I got the train from Manchester direct to Winchester. Very rustic
[08:39] <WillTablet> Yeah, the park outside the cathedral is nice.
[08:39] <WillTablet> Basingstoke has good shopping
[08:39] <WillTablet> Nice countryside
[08:39] <KT5TK> Thanks for the Winchester tip. We don't have a 100% detailled route yet
[08:40] <WillTablet> OK. Basingstoke has too many roundabouts.
[08:40] <LeoBodnar> Interesting problem to solve. Emergency ballast is probably the only way
[08:40] <WillTablet> But the shopping is good, and we're one of the only towns to have an apple store.
[08:41] <ibanezmatt13> has anybody got some example C code for the Pi, ublox max 6 and ntx2 I could have a look at?
[08:41] <KT5TK> LeoBodnar: Do it like Google. Use air as ballast
[08:41] <WillTablet> What's wrong with python matt?
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[08:42] <LeoBodnar> Like in skyanchor?
[08:42] <ibanezmatt13> Well, I'm not sure if it caused me some issues yesterday
[08:42] <WillTablet> Did you log anything to a file?
[08:42] <ibanezmatt13> NORB stopped txing data at 19km, then it did again for a bit at 28km then failed, then came back for the rest of the flight a bit lower
[08:42] <ibanezmatt13> no log file :/
[08:43] <KT5TK> Seriously. They have a balloon in the balloon where they can pump air in and out.
[08:43] <ibanezmatt13> I do seem to remember, during testing flight mode would occasionally become false
[08:43] <ibanezmatt13> perhaps this was the issue?
[08:43] <x-f> Google Loon
[08:44] <WillTablet> KT5TK Oakley's got some nice pubs.
[08:44] <WillTablet> (10 mins from Basingstoke)
[08:45] <x-f> ibanezmatt13, my ublox sometimes returns weird flightmode values, that are out of spec, so i just set it every Xth loop, and don't check what it returns. i've never seen it do so for more than a few times in a row, though.
[08:46] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, mine does that. It'll be true for like 2 sentences, then False, then true for a short while, then false etc
[08:46] <ibanezmatt13> So if I don't check what it returns, is it worth the risk?
[08:47] <x-f> if you do check and it's wrong, the transmission stops :)
[08:47] <ibanezmatt13> Well, not in my example. If flight mode is false and it has a lock, it will send everything with flight mode status false
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[08:48] <ibanezmatt13> So I thought that unless flight mode was truly not set, it should have worked
[08:48] <x-f> hmm
[08:48] <ibanezmatt13> x-f: https://github.com/ibanezmatt13/NORB/blob/master/NORB.py
[08:48] <ibanezmatt13> that's what flew
[08:48] <WillTablet> What happens if flightmode isn't set?
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[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> it doesn't get a lock above 12km or 18km or something like that, I'm not sure
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> basically it doesn't work above a certain height
[08:49] <x-f> 12
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> well mine worked up to 19, failed for a bit, came on for a bit at 28 etc
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> so that leads me to believe it wasn't flight mode, but what else could it be?
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> surely it couldn't have been the GPS struggling for lock up there
[08:50] <Randomskk> could be. e.g. low voltage, low temperature, high noise
[08:50] <ibanezmatt13> voltage was fine, could have been temp but NTX2 was pretty stable throughout the flight
[08:50] <Randomskk> hmm
[08:50] <ibanezmatt13> and it worked 75%
[08:50] <x-f> sentence_id was in order, it didn't reboot during those silent moments?
[08:51] <ibanezmatt13> just not when it was high
[08:51] <ibanezmatt13> I can't remember
[08:51] <ibanezmatt13> I should have kept a log file
[08:51] <x-f> habitat has it for you :)
[08:51] <ibanezmatt13> ah right, how can I get it?
[08:52] <x-f> http://habitat.habhub.org/ept/
[08:52] <x-f> of course, it has only the decoded strings
[08:53] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/NORB_20130824/ you can get the logs from http://habitat.habhub.org/ept/
[08:53] <ibanezmatt13> got it
[08:54] <x-f> i get empty files for NORB
[08:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Is it still on the tracker not sure what point it gets committed to habitat
[08:55] <ibanezmatt13> I've got the raw data but it's missed out loads
[08:55] <ibanezmatt13> It stops at 14km and returns at 8km
[08:55] <ibanezmatt13> http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/_design/ept/_list/json/payload_telemetry/payload_time?include_docs=true&startkey=[%22a0921936f6fda32cb964267d86c8f0b0%22]&endkey=[%22a0921936f6fda32cb964267d86c8f0b0%22,[]]&fields=_sentence
[08:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I have KML file on my server, fromwhich I did the OM on the first link
[08:56] <ibanezmatt13> yeah it gets really patchy, losses loads of sentences
[08:56] <ibanezmatt13> but flight mode always true...
[08:56] <ibanezmatt13> hmm
[08:57] <ibanezmatt13> It was definitely software I think because I saw the dial tone constantly even when it wasn't txing
[08:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> What does Flight Mode True mean - is it the correct flight mode or just that the command was ack'ed ?
[08:58] <ibanezmatt13> correct mode
[08:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> thats good!
[08:58] <ibanezmatt13> here's something really wierd:
[08:59] <ibanezmatt13> the time was constant all the way through
[08:59] <ibanezmatt13> even when we lost it for a bit
[08:59] <ibanezmatt13> the next one had a time only 4 seconds after the previous...
[08:59] <ibanezmatt13> but sentence id is patchy
[08:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> looking at the watwerfall in dl-fldigi it seems like very short bursts of data being sent
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[09:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/NORB_20130824/index.php?ind=0
[09:00] <ibanezmatt13> yes, that happens when it doesn't tx anything
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[09:00] <ibanezmatt13> i've noticed in testing, short gaps like that mean that flight mode is definitely true
[09:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> is it just a start bit being sent ?
[09:01] <fsphil> the short bursts are probably it setting nav mode at 9600
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[09:01] <ibanezmatt13> That's what it is fsphil I'm sure
[09:01] <ibanezmatt13> but why did it fail? :/
[09:01] <ibanezmatt13> temporarrily
[09:01] <ibanezmatt13> this is really interesting: http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/_design/ept/_list/json/payload_telemetry/payload_time?include_docs=true&startkey=[%22a0921936f6fda32cb964267d86c8f0b0%22]&endkey=[%22a0921936f6fda32cb964267d86c8f0b0%22,[]]&fields=_sentence
[09:02] <LeoBodnar> I am going to go see if I can hear B-10. Any idea what expected landing spot might be?
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[09:03] <fsphil> your code would block if the gps stopped responding
[09:03] <fsphil> I wonder if there was a bad connection
[09:03] <LeoBodnar> 1 mile SW of Turville maybe?
[09:03] <KT5TK> LeoBodnar: It will go streight South
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[09:04] <ibanezmatt13> but it worked perfectly up to around 19km, lost it for a bit, came back at 28, lost it for a bit, then picked it up all the way back fsphil
[09:04] <KT5TK> Follow that line untill you pick up the signa;
[09:04] <LeoBodnar> Any good IRC clients for iPhone?
[09:05] <Randomskk> colloquey
[09:05] <Randomskk> might be spelt differently
[09:05] <LeoBodnar> got it ta
[09:05] <Randomskk> not used it myself
[09:05] <LeoBodnar> ah
[09:05] <Randomskk> I just SSH in to my server running weechat
[09:05] <Randomskk> but I hear good things
[09:06] <ibanezmatt13> after what happened yesterday with NORB, would you be inclined to say it was a software or a hardware issue? I gotta get it sorted for next week
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[09:11] <x-f> have you tried disconnecting the GPS and see what happens?
[09:11] <LeoBodnar> Hmm, what irc server address do I put in?
[09:11] <ibanezmatt13> it just returns "bad sentence" because it gets no lock x-f
[09:12] <Randomskk> chat.freenode.net
[09:12] <ibanezmatt13> https://github.com/ibanezmatt13/NORB/blob/master/NORB.py
[09:12] <ibanezmatt13> It couldn't be the checksum could it?
[09:12] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: it was being shaken about, if there was a bad connection it could have cut-out anywhere
[09:12] <x-f> ibanezmatt13, that's what id does or what it is supposed to do?
[09:13] <ibanezmatt13> hmm
[09:13] <ibanezmatt13> all Id does it make sure the sentences are in order
[09:13] <x-f> what "it" does*, sorry
[09:14] <x-f> there is a "if GPS.inWaiting() > 0:" condition that has no timeout
[09:14] <LazyLeopard> It'd be worth checking all your solder joints for something intermittent like that...
[09:14] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I guess it could have been
[09:15] <ibanezmatt13> but still need to eliminate the software as the issue
[09:15] <ibanezmatt13> not sure what you mean x-f, it still set flight mode and returned true according to the log
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[09:17] <LeoBodnar> OK, going South! LeoB while mobile
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[09:25] <ibanezmatt13> x-f: Do you have some example python code for setting flight mode? I'm still not sure what caused the problem
[09:26] <x-f> i don't have a Pi
[09:26] <ibanezmatt13> :/
[09:27] <x-f> if it worked above 12km altitude, flightmode code is ok
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[09:27] <ibanezmatt13> what if it went false for a bit and came on again?
[09:28] <ibanezmatt13> it might not have been flight mode but I need to eliminate it completely as a possible error if possible
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[09:29] <x-f> i would transmit information in any case - even if the GPS has no lock, no correct flightmode or there is no data at all from the GPS
[09:30] <ibanezmatt13> what to transmit though?
[09:30] <x-f> that's why i asked if you have tried disconnecting it
[09:30] <x-f> the last known position
[09:30] <ibanezmatt13> Well, I'm using a pcb with everything on so I can't really disconnect it without disconnecting ntx2
[09:31] <x-f> introduce some "error" field
[09:31] <x-f> you don't need NTX2 for testing if you log all to the console
[09:31] <ibanezmatt13> ok, I'll try it
[09:32] <Upu> hey ibanezmatt13
[09:32] <ibanezmatt13> hi Upu
[09:33] <Upu> go well yesterday ?
[09:33] <ibanezmatt13> it did, apart from some NORB issues
[09:33] <ibanezmatt13> I need to work out what went wrong
[09:33] <Upu> yeah saw those bit odd
[09:33] <ibanezmatt13> I can't decide what it could be
[09:33] <Upu> got any logs from the GPS ?
[09:33] <ibanezmatt13> only from habitat
[09:33] <ibanezmatt13> http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/_design/ept/_list/json/payload_telemetry/payload_time?include_docs=true&startkey=[%22a0921936f6fda32cb964267d86c8f0b0%22]&endkey=[%22a0921936f6fda32cb964267d86c8f0b0%22,[]]&fields=_sentence
[09:34] <Upu> {"_sentence": "$$NORB,15:22:08,174,53.53283,-2.705233,True,7,146*6F14\n"},
[09:34] <Upu> {"_sentence": "$$NORB,15:33:28,344,53.532833,-2.705236,True,8,132*5BA8\n"},
[09:34] <Upu> so the counter was increasing
[09:34] <Upu> actually
[09:34] <Upu> ignore
[09:34] <Upu> was still on the deck
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[09:35] <ibanezmatt13> Counter increased throughout I think
[09:35] <ibanezmatt13> We lost it between 19km and 28km for ab it
[09:35] <Upu> wasn't a flight mode issue
[09:35] <Upu> {"_sentence": "$$NORB,11:42:14,1481,52.313478,-0.220185,True,8,19078*98A8\n"},
[09:35] <Upu> {"_sentence": "$$NORB,12:27:48,1514,52.314558,-0.31808,True,7,28483*9A05\n"},
[09:35] <Upu> counter was incrementing
[09:36] <ibanezmatt13> I'm really confused, could it be flight mode?
[09:36] <Upu> no
[09:36] <Upu> if you weren't in dynamic model 6 ("flight mode")
[09:36] <ibanezmatt13> even though we got it back, it could have been setting, then disabling etc
[09:36] <Upu> it would have stopped giving telemetry at 12km
[09:36] <Upu> lets have a look at PAVA for the same area
[09:36] <ibanezmatt13> but I repeatedly set it and check it throughout the flight
[09:36] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[09:37] <Upu> did you put PAVA in the flight doc ?
[09:37] <Upu> oh yeah
[09:37] <Upu> or not
[09:37] <Upu> :/
[09:37] <ibanezmatt13> I don't think I did
[09:37] <ibanezmatt13> I forgot :/
[09:38] <ibanezmatt13> So, how do you set flight mode and check it on the Pava?
[09:38] <Randomskk> the telem will still be available if you just filter for pava on the payloads list without selecting a flight
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[09:38] <ibanezmatt13> Steve replied and said it's almost certainly software related
[09:39] <Upu> not a meridian issue as you didn't go over it
[09:39] <Upu> did it come back at 28km and stay on ?
[09:39] <ibanezmatt13> for a brief moment
[09:39] <ibanezmatt13> then we only got it coming down
[09:40] <Upu> ta Randomskk
[09:40] <Upu> well ibanezmatt13
[09:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> ibanezmatt13, Can you feed your code test GPS data rather than real to see if you can emulate it ?
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[09:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> Use the data from the flight itself
[09:41] <ibanezmatt13> not sure Geoff-G8DHE :/
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[09:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> change the routine that gets GPS serial to one that reads a file
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[09:42] <ibanezmatt13> what will that do?
[09:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> well assuming the GPS was working OK, and giving the right data, it may be in the processing afterwards
[09:43] <ibanezmatt13> I don't see how it could have been that to be honest, I guess I could try that
[09:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> tat would identify it
[09:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> that*
[09:44] <ibanezmatt13> yea
[09:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> in that case it has to be with what the GPS was sending out and you can't do anything about that as such ..
[09:44] <ibanezmatt13> If it's software related, I would have thought only the flight mode part would be the issue
[09:45] <ibanezmatt13> Upu, would you like Pava back?
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[09:47] <Upu> sure if you're done with it
[09:47] <Upu> launching again ?
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[09:48] <ibanezmatt13> well, I'm not but there's a very very important launch that's using my code next week and that's why I'm trying to sort it out :/
[09:48] <ibanezmatt13> I'll be launching again yes, but not too soon
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[09:48] <Upu> very very important ? Your code isn't working :)
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[09:49] <Upu> if you're not launching any time soon yes I'll have the PAVA back
[09:49] <ibanezmatt13> ok, you don't need the foam ball do you? :/
[09:49] <zsentinel> i just saw this project on raspberry pi's site and was blown away
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[09:50] <Upu> which one zsentinel there are many :)
[09:50] <Upu> I think you mean Dave's flight yesterday
[09:50] <eroomde_> it sounds like dave's balloon was almost blown away
[09:50] <zsentinel> yeah that was on the blog but it's all awesome lol
[09:50] <Upu> what did you do with the ball ibanezmatt13 ? :))
[09:50] <Upu> it was fun
[09:50] <zsentinel> is gps used for altitude?
[09:50] <ibanezmatt13> Well, I was curious as to what was inside :/
[09:50] <Upu> sadly didn't all go to plan but he's doing again on Monday
[09:51] <ibanezmatt13> only took the top half off
[09:51] <Upu> lol
[09:51] <Upu> zsentinel yes
[09:51] <Upu> ublox modules that work above the normal limits
[09:51] <zsentinel> what are all the radio points on the map?
[09:51] <Upu> people who received transmissions
[09:51] <zsentinel> wow, so some made it all the way to germany?
[09:51] <Upu> oh yeah it was quite high
[09:51] <Upu> not bad for 10mW :)
[09:52] <zsentinel> amazing
[09:52] <zsentinel> what radio band does it transmit on?
[09:52] <Upu> ibanezmatt13 you can cut the antenna wires off and the battery and post it back to me if you want
[09:52] <Upu> 434Mhz aka 70cms
[09:52] <Upu> ISM band license exempt
[09:52] <zsentinel> is that a HAM band?
[09:52] <zsentinel> ahh
[09:52] <zsentinel> cool
[09:52] <Upu> its in the band HAM users can use
[09:52] <zsentinel> do you guys have some kind of receiver device that connects to the PC?
[09:52] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: Well my Dad was going to drop the Yagi off at your place soon so maybe he could bring it back then?
[09:53] <Upu> but in the UK we aren't permitted to do the launch under the HAM regulations
[09:53] <zsentinel> i am going to research if i can do this in the USA, as I want to try a launch
[09:53] <Upu> zsentinel yeah ranges from "real" HAM rigs to Fun Cube Dongles to SDR's
[09:53] <Upu> we have a number of people in here from the US
[09:53] <zsentinel> i would think this thing is more regulated in the USA
[09:54] <Upu> Actually less so
[09:54] <zsentinel> this kind of thing i mean
[09:54] <zsentinel> really?
[09:54] <Upu> have you got a HAM license ?
[09:54] <zsentinel> unfortunately, no
[09:54] <zsentinel> but I could probably get one fairly easily
[09:54] <Upu> ok if you get one it will be much easier you can use airborne APRS we can't
[09:55] <zsentinel> oh sweety
[09:55] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: So you think it was a flight mode issue or something else?
[09:55] <eroomde_> Upu is married
[09:55] <eroomde_> sorry
[09:55] <G7PMO_Kev> :)
[09:56] <Upu> lol
[09:56] <Upu> not flight mode ibanezmatt13
[09:56] <Upu> ok I'm afk
[09:56] <zsentinel> looks like funcube dongle is for usa?
[09:56] <zsentinel> err i mean UK
[09:56] <eroomde_> for anyone
[09:56] <eroomde_> it can receive almost anything
[09:56] <zsentinel> ahh, ok the page i found mentioned UK zones
[09:56] <eroomde_> it was made by a UK ham
[09:57] <eroomde_> tis all
[09:57] <zsentinel> ah ok
[09:57] <zsentinel> i assume dave was able to get the pictures of the flight by recovering the bear?
[09:57] <zsentinel> as i assume they arent transmitted in real time
[09:57] <eroomde_> people have been transmitting pictures down real-time
[09:57] <zsentinel> wow, using wifi?
[09:57] <Randomskk> yea the bear did have real time photos
[09:58] <eroomde_> but it's much slower and lower quality
[09:58] <Randomskk> wifi would be a struggle at that altitude and distance
[09:58] <zsentinel> yeah i figured
[09:58] <eroomde_> 99.9% of the data is recovered on the ground
[09:58] <zsentinel> how are people getting real time photos then?
[09:58] <Randomskk> narrow band fm radios mostly
[09:58] <zsentinel> awesome
[09:58] <eroomde_> 600 baud
[09:58] <Randomskk> 10mW
[09:59] <eroomde_> 1980's internet style
[09:59] <zsentinel> i would need to travel to launch mine though, i am about 10 min from NYC
[09:59] <Randomskk> eh
[09:59] <Randomskk> that didn't stop some people
[09:59] <zsentinel> haha
[09:59] <Randomskk> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fdr-Fiv92c
[09:59] <eroomde_> you could go transatlantic
[09:59] <zsentinel> well recovery would be t he hard part
[09:59] <eroomde_> where are you zsentinel ?
[09:59] <Randomskk> is that NYC? I don't really know. might be another US city
[09:59] <zsentinel> NJ
[10:00] <Randomskk> skip to 3min for the HAB
[10:00] <Randomskk> spot the duct tape and arduinos
[10:00] <zsentinel> how long do they stay airborne?
[10:00] <zsentinel> i saw some on the tracking map that seemed to be up for a long time
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[10:02] <eroomde_> conventional latex flights are usually up and down in 3-4 hours
[10:02] <ibanezmatt13> when would be an appropriate time to flush the serial port on a Pi during HAB?
[10:03] <eroomde_> floaters can be days/weeks
[10:03] <eroomde_> ibanezmatt13: when you're over an unpopulated area
[10:03] <zsentinel> eroomde_: i assume you just order large latex baloons off the net?
[10:03] <eroomde_> zsentinel: yep
[10:03] <ibanezmatt13> lol
[10:03] <eroomde_> random solutions is popular here
[10:03] <zsentinel> ibanezmatt13: what does flushing the serial port do?
[10:03] <ibanezmatt13> it waits for all bytes in the serial buffer to be either read or written I think
[10:04] <zsentinel> but why do you need to flush it i mean
[10:04] <zsentinel> what is hooked up to the serial port i guess would be a better question
[10:04] <ibanezmatt13> GPS device, radio transmitter etc
[10:04] <zsentinel> ahhh
[10:04] <ibanezmatt13> zsentinel: I flew yesterday but had an issue and I can't work out what it was
[10:05] <ibanezmatt13> and I kind of need to :)
[10:05] <zsentinel> with a pi?
[10:05] <ibanezmatt13> yeah
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[10:05] <zsentinel> do you usually recover the payload?
[10:05] <ibanezmatt13> I did by some miricale
[10:05] <zsentinel> oh and you were able to without radio?
[10:05] <zsentinel> lucky lol
[10:06] <ibanezmatt13> We tracked it down with radio
[10:06] <zsentinel> ahh
[10:06] <ibanezmatt13> then that gave us a gps positiobn
[10:06] <zsentinel> does the radio normally transmit the coordinates?
[10:06] <ibanezmatt13> yes
[10:06] <zsentinel> ahh cool
[10:06] <zsentinel> do you have a link to the transmitter and receiver you use for that?
[10:06] <ibanezmatt13> yep, one sec
[10:06] <ibanezmatt13> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/
[10:06] <ibanezmatt13> sorry that's to buy
[10:07] <ibanezmatt13> Ublox Max 6 GPS module
[10:07] <zsentinel> so you actually just connect the gps and radio transmitter to the gpio header directly on the pi?
[10:07] <ibanezmatt13> pretty much
[10:07] <zsentinel> awesome
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[10:08] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde_: what could have happened above 19km that stopped NORB transmitting? Bear in mind it started again briefly at 28km
[10:08] <ibanezmatt13> and then we got it from 25km down all the way
[10:09] <ibanezmatt13> well from about 28 down
[10:09] <ibanezmatt13> It could have been a hardware issue actually
[10:10] <ibanezmatt13> but many seem to think it was definitely software :/
[10:11] <G7PMO_Kev> Matt, you need to go through your code with a fine tooth comb mate, it's a new day, you have a refreshed pair of eyes, assume nothing and work your way through every step.. Think about the outside conditions, what is that was a 0, what if that didn't give an answer, what if a bit of data from the GPS was corrupted, and make sure your code just keeps going...
[10:11] <eroomde_> Randomskk: the eco racing team have done some interesting stuff this year
[10:11] <eroomde_> ibanezmatt13: no idea
[10:11] <Randomskk> yea! the new car actually looks kinda cool
[10:11] <Randomskk> it's a shame it doesn't all fit together
[10:11] <Randomskk> some fairly noticable seams and gaps :P
[10:11] <eroomde_> when you add linux in, there space of possible bugs becomes extraordinary
[10:12] <Randomskk> from what I hear their management is still a total mess though
[10:12] <ibanezmatt13> G7PMO_Kev: Yeah, I'm going through it
[10:12] <G7PMO_Kev> Matt, If you think it might be hardware, all you can try are some extended tests, some frezer tests, some drop / shake tests or fly it again...
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[10:12] <eroomde_> nd as you're realising, getting things like io ports to behave deterministically can also be troublesome
[10:13] <gonzo_mob> anything in the air at the mo?
[10:13] <zsentinel> do you guys usually put temp sensors on your rigs?
[10:15] <eroomde_> yep
[10:15] <eroomde_> sometimes
[10:15] <zsentinel> what temp is it at those altitudes?
[10:15] <eroomde_> pressure, temp, uv, ozone, radiation, whatever you fancy
[10:15] <zsentinel> very cool
[10:15] <eroomde_> it gets down to about -50C
[10:15] <eroomde_> then it starts to warm up again
[10:15] <zsentinel> wow, that is outside of the operating range of a pi sint it?
[10:15] <ibanezmatt13> I have no serial flush in between setting flight mode and checking it. Could that be an issue?
[10:15] <eroomde_> yes in theory, but the air is much thinner
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[10:15] <eroomde_> and the pi generates lots of heat
[10:16] <zsentinel> eroomde_: very cool
[10:16] <eroomde_> and so it is actually more at risk of overheating if anything, because there is very little air to covert the heat away
[10:16] <zsentinel> i assume normally you dont drop something like the bear flight yesterday
[10:16] <eroomde_> usually stuff just comes down under parachute
[10:16] <zsentinel> eroomde_: ahhh good point
[10:16] <eroomde_> but there is sometimes cause to drop and detach things
[10:16] <zsentinel> oh wow, so you have a parachute system as well?
[10:16] <eroomde_> yep
[10:17] <zsentinel> i figured you just let the balloon defalte
[10:17] <eroomde_> otherwise it would make a mess when it landed :)
[10:17] <eroomde_> the balloons usually burst
[10:17] <zsentinel> ahhh
[10:17] <zsentinel> is it a simple parachute like on a model rocket? or some kind of system to deploy them?
[10:17] <eroomde_> so the parachute is usually pre-deployed in the line between the payload and the balloon
[10:17] <eroomde_> yep that kind of parachute
[10:17] <zsentinel> ahhh
[10:17] <zsentinel> that makes sense
[10:17] <eroomde_> and after burst, it just inflates
[10:17] <gonzo_mob> the bear jumped yesterday? assume mothing is flying today then?
[10:18] <craag> gonzo_mob: bear didn't jump
[10:18] <craag> attempt #2 tomorrow
[10:18] <zsentinel> really?
[10:18] <zsentinel> the pictures i saw were old?
[10:18] <gonzo_mob> ta phil.
[10:18] <zsentinel> he has some kind of system that cuts the line that holds the bear?
[10:18] <zsentinel> in the write up it just mentioned its released via a cord
[10:18] <eroomde_> cutting stuff away still seems to a buggy area
[10:18] <gonzo_mob> out and about so would only dig out thr laptop if there was some tracking
[10:19] <craag> Yeah, it's a resistor that melts the cord.
[10:19] <zsentinel> ahhh cool
[10:19] <gonzo_mob> cool is often the prob!
[10:20] <eroomde_> i've never been mega keen on melty techniques
[10:20] <eroomde_> and i've also never had a failed cutdown
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[10:20] <eroomde_> i think there is a correlation there
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[10:21] <craag> I heard the resistor had 'failed', I wonder if it got burnt out in testing.
[10:22] <craag> Yeah pyros seem a lot more reliable
[10:22] <craag> SHARP's pyros were almost overkill, they pulverised the cord!
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[10:22] <fsphil> I'm not a fan of explody things
[10:22] <craag> (and pulverised it early_
[10:22] <eroomde_> they're by some distance the most reliable thing, i think
[10:23] <eroomde_> and can be done perfectly safely
[10:23] <eroomde_> especially if you don't mind buying something off the shelf
[10:23] <Randomskk> craag: haha I still love that SHARP cutdown test video
[10:23] <Randomskk> with the bedsheets
[10:23] <Randomskk> and the missing
[10:23] <fsphil> lol
[10:23] <Randomskk> SLARP anyway
[10:23] <eroomde_> our mars parachute test vehicle used pyrotechnic protractors extensively, all over the vehicle
[10:23] <Randomskk> eroomde_: "off the shelf"
[10:23] <craag> hehe yes..
[10:23] <eroomde_> yeah
[10:23] <Randomskk> £50 a pop min order 20?
[10:23] <eroomde_> off the shelf
[10:23] <Randomskk> or £20 a pop at min order 50, if I remember correctly
[10:23] <eroomde_> no, £50 min order 1
[10:23] <Randomskk> oh really?
[10:23] <eroomde_> well, £45
[10:23] <Randomskk> the protractors?
[10:23] <eroomde_> and a price break at 25
[10:24] <eroomde_> yes the protractors
[10:24] <Randomskk> huh
[10:24] <Randomskk> I thought the min order was way higher
[10:24] <eroomde_> there is no min order
[10:24] <eroomde_> at least there wasn't last time i ordered some
[10:24] <Randomskk> so how come I had to walk into barclays with thousands of pounds in cash and ask for it to be transferred to a dodgy pyro company?
[10:24] <eroomde_> because the price break was 25
[10:24] <eroomde_> so it was worth it
[10:24] <Randomskk> admittedly not as bad as walking into hsbc with twice as much in £50s and asking for it to be put into "rockets n things"
[10:24] <Randomskk> the look on the cashier's face was priceless
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[10:25] <Randomskk> hey eroomde_ you seem like the kind of person who might know what kind of sockets you might use to connect an off the shelf thermocouple probe
[10:25] <eroomde_> yes indeed i do
[10:25] <eroomde_> what type?
[10:25] <Upu> uh oh
[10:26] <Randomskk> hmm haven't picked. but it only needs to cover 20C to 100C so idk, J? K?
[10:26] <eroomde_> yeah anything will do that
[10:26] <eroomde_> K
[10:26] <eroomde_> the most popular
[10:26] <Randomskk> yea K seems easiest
[10:26] <Randomskk> it's going to be in water so really shouldn't be above 100 or below 0
[10:26] <Randomskk> easy
[10:27] <eroomde_> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=2031+204630+110069154&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt=thermocouple+sockewt&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&No=0&getResults=true&appliedparametrics=true&locale=en_UK&divisionLocale=en_UK&catalogId=&skipManufacturer=false&skipParametricAttributeId=&prevNValues=2031+204630&mm=1001418||,&filtersHidden=false&appliedHidden=false&autoApply=false&originalQueryURL=%2Fjsp%2Fsearch%2Fbrowse.jsp%3FN%3D2031%2B204630%26Ntk%3
[10:27] <eroomde_> search%26Ntt%3Dthermocouple%2Bsockewt%26Ntx%3Dmode%2Bmatchallpartial%26No%3D0%26getResults%3Dtrue%26appliedparametrics%3Dtrue%26locale%3Den_UK%26divisionLocale%3Den_UK%26catalogId%3D%26skipManufacturer%3Dfalse%26skipParametricAttributeId%3D%26prevNValues%3D2031%2B204630
[10:27] <eroomde_> woah
[10:27] <Randomskk> that's a hell of a URL
[10:27] <eroomde_> well anyway, they're A Standard Thing
[10:27] <eroomde_> K-type sockets and plugs
[10:27] <Randomskk> great
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[10:27] <eroomde_> polarised and of the correct metals so you don't get added seebeck
[10:28] <eroomde_> you can also get slightly better copper-housed ones that you can use for cold-junction measurements
[10:28] <Randomskk> oh cute, yes, I remember seeing these before
[10:28] <Randomskk> easy. great.
[10:28] <gonzo_mob> what time is dave flying tkmorrow?
[10:29] <Iain_G4SGX_> ibanezmatt13: Have you got time to do another flight and this time log all the GPS strings and ACKS to file? I'm using a pic so cant do that but was going to send an error code OUTSIDE the telemetry string as if I have a GPS error it just sends the last known good string and an error wouold change the checksum
[10:32] <Iain_G4SGX_> You would them have all the info you need to debug
[10:34] Nick change: G0TDJ_AFK -> G0TDJ_Steve
[10:34] <G0TDJ_Steve> Morning Guys
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[10:36] <eroomde_> My friend's gf just walked in after an apparently trying visit to the local bakery (she went to get pastries and newspaper for breakfast)
[10:36] <Randomskk> eroomde_: so if you have a panel mount thermocouple connector and you need to wire it to your PCB, should you be using thermocouple wire to do so?
[10:36] <eroomde_> watching her in full angry-mode is very funny
[10:36] <Randomskk> haha oh no, what happened at the bakery?
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[10:36] <eroomde_> she's recounting how she's going to go in there and beat them up
[10:37] <eroomde_> and saying things like 'WHERE ARE YOUR CROISSANTS NOW BITCH!?!?'
[10:37] <Randomskk> haha
[10:41] <eroomde_> (she's american)
[10:41] <eroomde_> anyway
[10:41] <eroomde_> sorry
[10:41] <eroomde_> that was an asside
[10:42] <RocketBoy> tactful
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[10:44] <Randomskk> was the bakery closed or something
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[10:45] <eroomde_> they were closed despite being past their opening time
[10:45] <Iain_G4SGX_> Wrong sort of chocolate i her croissant probably, some people are very picky..
[10:45] <eroomde_> they apparently noticed her standing outside as they were gaffing inside, but made her wait five minutes
[10:47] <Randomskk> ah
[10:47] <Randomskk> that's annoying
[10:49] <RocketBoy> what do peeps recommend for a decent mag-mount 70cms antenna - my home-brew one is suffering from getting wet at the mount.
[10:50] <fsphil> I've always liked these: http://cpc.farnell.com/IT44456
[10:50] <fsphil> cheap and cheerful
[10:50] <fsphil> cable is a bit long though
[10:51] <RocketBoy> and a bit thin (loss)
[10:52] <tweetBot> @Matt___Nott: Looking at the telemetry I got from the 2 local high altitude balloon launches yesterday. #ukhas A shame my new £8 rtl-sdr drifts so much!
[10:52] <eroomde_> i spent a bit more on one from ML&S
[10:52] <RocketBoy> if its the one I've seen used by Jcoxon
[10:52] <eroomde_> it's much stiffer and more solid
[10:52] <eroomde_> stays orthogonal to the car roof at 70mph
[10:52] <RocketBoy> important - when you have your foot down
[10:52] <RocketBoy> chasing a HAB
[10:52] <fsphil> this one does lean a bit at 70mph
[10:54] <RocketBoy> I'd prefer single band as I'm not a great believer in dual band stuff - always a compromise - and the loading coil will add to the bend
[10:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Try these, do they have to be mag mount rather than say a gutter or lip mount ? http://www.nevadaradio.co.uk/amateur-radio/antennas/mobile-antennas/?page=2
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[10:55] <craag> 5/8 is probably the most ideal. 1/4 wave will give you same gain pattern and be more mechanically solid, but less aperture.
[10:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I'm ussing the SBB-4 on the campervan on a lip mount works very well
[10:57] <eroomde_> maybe now is the time for the pan-tilt yagi
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[10:57] <craag> I use a 3/4 wave, (144MHz 1/4 wave). Works well when the payload's in the air, not quite so well as it falls to the horizon.
[10:58] <craag> hehe was it SGS that had the cusf autorotator on top of their minibus?
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[10:58] <eroomde_> poss
[10:58] <mattbrejza> it wasnt the autorotator, just a tripod
[10:58] <Randomskk> I think they had a student and a yagi ;)
[10:59] <craag> oh :(
[10:59] <Randomskk> "more left!"
[10:59] <craag> works jsut as well I guess
[10:59] <eroomde_> having a nice thing that can move fast and battle the wind loading would be good
[10:59] <Iain_G4SGX_> Any news from Leo and his search for B10?
[11:00] <craag> That's what I was hoping Bo_DK was building.
[11:00] <craag> But he's gone down the installed route with a 13-element yagi.
[11:00] <craag> (Beaglebone-black based automatic autorotator and decoder)
[11:00] <eroomde_> i think there's a bit of a separation between talk and output with him
[11:01] <craag> It did all seem quite ambitious
[11:01] <eroomde_> or at least he's more keen on asking what colour the project website should be and what features we want
[11:01] <eroomde_> and then when we looked at the schematics there were about 49 showstoppers
[11:01] <craag> oh right, didn't see those.
[11:02] <eroomde_> solar panel charging circuit was copies off the web but incorrectly (inverting and non-inverting input to op amp were the wrong way round) and why this was a problem seemed to be lost on him
[11:02] <eroomde_> just as a forex
[11:02] <craag> I see..
[11:03] <eroomde_> we all have to learn i guess
[11:04] <craag> roofbar-mounted rig with 4-element yagi would be nice. Especially as then you could use a bit more downwards radiation from the payload (maybe circular pol?) for a really high bandwidth link just to the chase car.
[11:05] <mattbrejza> the +/- input being the wrong way round on a pcb is always a right pain ¬.¬
[11:05] <mattbrejza> of an opamp
[11:05] <eroomde_> well yes
[11:05] <eroomde_> it's sort of a fundamental error
[11:05] <Iain_G4SGX_> :)
[11:05] <eroomde_> you will not be going to space today
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[11:06] <mattbrejza> i at least know why it matters :P
[11:07] <fsphil> reversing the polarity always seems to work on TV
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[11:07] Nick change: Bo|2 -> Bo_DK
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[11:12] <RocketBoy> thanks for the antenna advice guys - that will keep me busy for a while
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[11:19] <Iain_G4SGX_> I wonder if Leo took another ballon with him on his hunt for B-10, wouldn't be surprised.
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[11:28] <ibanezmatt13> Just found the burst part of the video for NORB
[11:28] <ibanezmatt13> It's quite nice
[11:28] <LeoB> B-10 retrieved
[11:28] <Randomskk> nice work LeoB
[11:28] <Randomskk> how was it
[11:28] <ibanezmatt13> Well done LeoB
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[11:29] <Willdude123> Hi.
[11:29] <Willdude123> My netbook is running Windows Explorer, a Browser, an IRC client, A torrent client and the control panel. Only 1 is crashing!
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[11:32] Nick change: Bo_DK -> Bo_DK_Formatted
[11:32] Nick change: Bo_DK_Formatted -> Bo_DK
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[11:33] <Iain_G4SGX_> Excellent LeoBodnar, got a ballonn on you? :)
[11:36] <ibanezmatt13> Here's burst: https://www.dropbox.com/s/w0i86omo8skvg7u/122441.h264 You'll need something like VLC to play it
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[11:38] <ibanezmatt13> it might be upside down too
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[11:38] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, well done on your launch.
[11:39] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[11:39] <Willdude123> Might help convince my parents if someone young-ish is also doing HAB.
[11:39] <Willdude123> Probably not.
[11:39] <ibanezmatt13> maybe, I had a close encounter with a 747 too :)
[11:39] <Willdude123> They've pretty much just said no.
[11:39] <Willdude123> Ooh do you have pictures?
[11:39] <ibanezmatt13> I'm in the process yes, I'll take a print screen now, one sec
[11:40] <Willdude123> Well actually it was more like, no shut up about it.
[11:41] <Iain_G4SGX_> Don't they realise if you doing stuff like this at your age the future looks bright?
[11:43] <Willdude123> No because it isn't bright at all.
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[11:43] <Iain_G4SGX_> If my daughter was into such I'd be well happy, alas he's just into boys and parties currently. Why not?
[11:44] <Willdude123> It involves people I don't directly know.
[11:44] <Willdude123> So that makes them paedophiles.
[11:44] <ibanezmatt13> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nth1i032wlqt09m/close.png
[11:45] <Willdude123> I even showed them Upu and Daveake when they were on the BBC but that probably made it ten times worse. :)
[11:45] <ibanezmatt13> lol
[11:45] <Iain_G4SGX_> lols
[11:45] <Iain_G4SGX_> its the shorts probably
[11:45] <Iain_G4SGX_> :)
[11:46] <craag> haha and the BaCoN shirts
[11:47] <Willdude123> But nonetheless.
[11:47] <Willdude123> It's a cool hobby
[11:47] <Willdude123> They haven't even thought about it much
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[11:48] <Willdude123> They let me go to a ham radio club filled with old guys with beards.
[11:48] <Willdude123> At a PUB!
[11:48] <Willdude123> But they won't let me go to a conference filled with 20-60 year old mostly young shaven people in a nice area of london.
[11:49] <Iain_G4SGX_> What I meant was your interest and ability at your age means that you got a good chance of a comfortable life and a good job i you do Uni and specialise. Looks good on the CV too.
[11:49] <Willdude123> Because they all go to the PUB afterwards!!!
[11:49] <Randomskk> not everyone goes to the pub after
[11:50] <Iain_G4SGX_> Ah well, they only looking out or you, just fear of the unknown..
[11:51] <Willdude123> But it's so ironic!
[11:51] <mattbrejza> anyone else your parents know who could take you?
[11:51] <Willdude123> (I am not responsible for any offence caused by racial profiling of people due to beards)
[11:51] <Willdude123> Granddad
[11:51] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: vertical video!!
[11:52] <Willdude123> Who is very interested in this stuff
[11:52] <GMT> ibanezmatt13: nice video!
[11:52] <ibanezmatt13> haha thanks, needs rotating 90 degrees
[11:52] <Willdude123> mattbrejza, but it's somehow a lot different from meeting at a pub
[11:52] <fsphil> Say no to vertical video!
[11:52] <Willdude123> I'm just fed up of it.
[11:53] <ibanezmatt13> I didn't realise it was vertical :P
[11:53] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: still worried about this code failure. https://github.com/ibanezmatt13/NORB/blob/master/NORB.py I just can't see where it would fail and I need it for next week :/
[11:54] <Willdude123> You could have been seen!
[11:54] <Willdude123> To quote harry potter.
[11:54] <Willdude123> My parent's situation on this is so ironic.
[11:54] <fsphil> still think it was electrical ibanezmatt13
[11:55] <ibanezmatt13> Well, I'll be able to let you know next week
[11:55] <Iain_G4SGX_> ibanezmatt13: Can you not quickly launch again and log all GPS & Acks to file so you can debug? Its a long weekend..
[11:55] <ibanezmatt13> Iain_G4SGX_: 0 funds left
[11:56] <fsphil> I'd fix that block though .. have it transmit something
[11:56] <ibanezmatt13> the code does work but something made it fail up there
[11:56] <ibanezmatt13> it would work down here testing it find
[11:57] <ibanezmatt13> fin
[11:57] <ibanezmatt13> fine*!
[11:57] <fsphil> hence electrical :)
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[11:57] <fsphil> try wiggling wires a bit
[11:57] <ibanezmatt13> hmm, may have to risk it
[11:57] <ibanezmatt13> I've shaken the payload during testing and it was fine
[12:00] <ibanezmatt13> does gaffer tape contain metal strips at all?
[12:00] <ibanezmatt13> well that shouldn't have affected it anyway really
[12:00] <fsphil> it was transmitting an empty carrier wasn't it?
[12:00] <fsphil> https://github.com/ibanezmatt13/NORB/blob/master/NORB.py#L148
[12:01] <fsphil> this is the only part of the code that I think could do that
[12:01] <fsphil> it'll wait forever for the gps to reply
[12:01] <Iain_G4SGX_> Well it wasnt a software crash,as the counter kept running. You said you are always setting flight mode & checking, whys that? Do you have a timeout on the GPS query?
[12:01] <ibanezmatt13> exactly fsphil
[12:01] <fsphil> so either the gps was talking but couldn't get through (wiring/electrical)
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[12:01] <fsphil> or the serial port somehow stopped -- but I doubt it would have come back
[12:02] <ibanezmatt13> is the way I constantly set flight mode and check it bad?
[12:02] <fsphil> I don't do it as often, but I don't think it's a problem
[12:02] <Iain_G4SGX_> If you get an ack back
[12:02] <fsphil> my code checks, and only sets if it's in the wrong mode
[12:03] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: But I thought you could only check by setting?
[12:03] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: nope, you can send the command with no data and it'll reply with the current settings
[12:03] <fsphil> check the datasheet, it describes is
[12:03] <fsphil> it*
[12:03] <ibanezmatt13> that could be an issue to I guess
[12:03] <ibanezmatt13> I'll have a look
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[12:04] <fsphil> it's possible
[12:04] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil, I just send this to set/check: B5 62 06 00 14 00 01 00 00 00 D0 08 00 00 80 25 00 00 07 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 A0 A9
[12:04] <Iain_G4SGX_> I dont check or flight mode once set, I assume it will stay, but I havent flight tested yet..
[12:04] <ibanezmatt13> I think still worth checking
[12:04] <fsphil> Iain_G4SGX_: won't if your gps resets for any reason :)
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[12:04] <Iain_G4SGX_> Is that likely?
[12:04] <ibanezmatt13> quite possible
[12:04] <Iain_G4SGX_> Ah
[12:05] <fsphil> little nudge on a battey connector, or header
[12:05] <Iain_G4SGX_> Thats not in the data sheet
[12:05] <Iain_G4SGX_> k
[12:05] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: is it just a case of taking certain things out of this? B5 62 06 00 14 00 01 00 00 00 D0 08 00 00 80 25 00 00 07 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 A0 A9
[12:05] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: yes. you just send it but with no payload data
[12:06] <ibanezmatt13> wait, I thought we were talking about checking flight mode without setting it
[12:06] <ibanezmatt13> all the time
[12:06] <fsphil> yea, if you send the command to set it, but without any payload data, it replies with the current data
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[12:07] <ibanezmatt13> payload data?
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[12:07] <fsphil> the ubx packet has a 2 byte header, 2 bytes for the command, and 2 bytes for the payload length
[12:07] <fsphil> then the payload
[12:07] <fsphil> then 2 bytes for the checksum
[12:07] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[12:08] <fsphil> you send the same packet but without the payload part
[12:08] <ibanezmatt13> So header, command, checksum?
[12:08] <fsphil> header, command, payload length (which will be 0), then checksum
[12:08] <fsphil> https://github.com/ProjectSwift/swift/blob/master/gps.c#L338
[12:09] <fsphil> the gps will reply with a ubx packet containing the data
[12:09] <fsphil> and also, confusingly, it'll also send an ACK
[12:10] <ibanezmatt13> wow
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[12:10] <ibanezmatt13> Would be nice if a program existed which you could run which did it all for you
[12:10] <ibanezmatt13> but I guess you wouldn't learn anything
[12:10] <ibanezmatt13> https://github.com/ibanezmatt13/NORB/blob/master/NORB.py#L53
[12:11] <ibanezmatt13> is that the bit I change?
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[12:11] <fsphil> you'd need a version of that, that can read any kind of packet, not just an ACK
[12:12] <fsphil> which isn't as hard as it sounds
[12:12] <ibanezmatt13> I think this is going to be too much of a task to complete for tomorrow
[12:12] <Bo_DK> Ublox Q: on a 2 sided board i have the ublox on one side and some switching regulators for 5 and 3.3V
[12:13] <Randomskk> you are being somewhat coy about what happens tomorrow
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[12:13] <Bo_DK> given that the board also have 2 ground floods would it harm to mount both ublox and regulators on same side?
[12:13] <fsphil> oh what's happening tomorrow?
[12:13] <ibanezmatt13> well, I'm trying to sort some code out for somebody who's flying on Wednesday
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[12:14] Nick change: [1]Geoff-G8DHE-M -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[12:15] <ibanezmatt13> I mean, if I can make the code so that it can't really fail, any issues will be hardware-related
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[12:16] <ibanezmatt13> The only thing that could have made it fail partially yesterday, as far as I can see, is the enabling of flight mode. Though it is believed that it might not have even been that
[12:17] <craag> It looked like flight mode, but there was a fix at 28km or something right?
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[12:18] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[12:18] <fsphil> just limit how often you set flight mode
[12:18] <craag> Are you doing something like setting flight mode, then resetting the GPS?
[12:18] <ibanezmatt13> no, should just be setting flight mode
[12:18] <ibanezmatt13> I need to check flight mode without setting it everytime
[12:18] <ibanezmatt13> that will avoid any issues I think
[12:19] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: gps_send_packet(UBX_CLASS_CFG, 0x24, 0, 0);
[12:19] <ibanezmatt13> what is that?
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[12:23] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, have you considered dropping it from height?
[12:23] <Willdude123> It might be a wiring issue.
[12:24] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, I'm gonna edit my code a bit and try it
[12:24] <Willdude123> OK
[12:24] <Willdude123> Meh I'm bored
[12:24] Action: Bo_DK ripping his dvd's while lurking
[12:26] <Willdude123> Bo_DK, what software do you use? Most DVD ripping stuff I've tried is useless shareware
[12:26] <Bo_DK> Willdude123: dvd decrypter.. saving straight to iso
[12:27] <Willdude123> Does it save to mp4?
[12:27] <Bo_DK> no
[12:27] <Bo_DK> it only decrypts
[12:27] <Willdude123> How do you get it to MP4?
[12:27] <Bo_DK> i dont
[12:27] <Willdude123> Oh but what if you wanted to?
[12:27] <Bo_DK> but if You want then handbrake
[12:28] G8KNN (~jon@cpc1-cmbg10-0-0-cust144.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:28] <Willdude123> Or can vlc play isos?
[12:28] <Bo_DK> i think it can
[12:28] <Bo_DK> not sure
[12:28] <Bo_DK> i plan to set a raspi as htpc
[12:28] <Willdude123> Did you pay for it?
[12:29] <Bo_DK> for what?
[12:29] <Bo_DK> decrypter?
[12:29] <Bo_DK> its free
[12:29] <Bo_DK> no longer maintained thou
[12:29] <Bo_DK> but still working fine
[12:29] <Bo_DK> raspi is going to run raspbmc
[12:30] <Bo_DK> it will 100% play an iso
[12:30] <Bo_DK> tested it myself
[12:30] <Bo_DK> bonus is you have everything.. menus and extras etc
[12:30] <Bo_DK> and they dont fill much extra
[12:30] <Bo_DK> so i could not bother to strip it
[12:31] <Willdude123> It's even got a torrent client I think
[12:31] <Bo_DK> no need
[12:31] <Bo_DK> just google
[12:31] <Bo_DK> dvd decrypter
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[12:31] wctaiwan (wctaiwan@wikipedia/wctaiwan) left #highaltitude ("Leaving").
[12:32] <Willdude123> I torrent stuff instead of buying the DVD and ripping most of the time
[12:32] <Bo_DK> ok
[12:32] madhatt3r (547f02b5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.127.2.181) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[12:32] <Bo_DK> i just got a lot of dvd's i want to have quick access to
[12:32] <Bo_DK> anyways
[12:33] <Bo_DK> must try and get my board done so i can get it made in china
[12:33] <Bo_DK> there are just one thing left
[12:33] <Bo_DK> layout
[12:33] <Willdude123> Bo_DK, did you actually ignore me the other day or just say you did?
[12:33] <Bo_DK> in that i have solar cahrge curcuit left
[12:34] <Bo_DK> i did use ignore
[12:34] <Bo_DK> i dont lie
[12:34] <Bo_DK> see no need to
[12:34] <Willdude123> Ah OK
[12:34] <Willdude123> How did you know I changed nick?
[12:34] <Bo_DK> ip
[12:34] <Willdude123> Sorry I was being a twit then
[12:34] <Bo_DK> each time you log in or out it says ip and RDNS
[12:34] <Bo_DK> it happens
[12:35] <Bo_DK> same for me
[12:35] <Willdude123> Ah ok
[12:35] <Bo_DK> i just tend to go from pc when in that mood
[12:35] <Bo_DK> :-D
[12:35] <Bo_DK> expert in board layout etc?
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[12:36] <Willdude123> Hi Laurenceb_
[12:36] <Laurenceb_> hi
[12:36] <Bo_DK> hi there :-D
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[12:43] <Bo_DK> What are people doing ? beeing AFK ? :-D
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[12:51] <Bo_DK> UpuWork & Upu.... alive ? :-D
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[12:52] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: is it: Poll Navigation Engine Settings or Get/Set Navigation Engine Settings I need
[12:53] <ibanezmatt13> I'm looking into only reading the ack from getting the settings of flight mode as opposed to constantly setting it
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[12:53] <ibanezmatt13> I think it's the first one actually
[12:53] <ibanezmatt13> in fact, I'm not sure
[12:54] <ibanezmatt13> nah, must be the first one, it has length 0
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[12:58] <blackbox> heya guys... A random question.. have any of you used the invertek ISM300F2-C5-C0004 GPS module?
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[13:00] <ibanezmatt13> could somebody help me a little with this small block of code: https://github.com/ibanezmatt13/NORB/blob/master/NORB.py#L53 It constructs the expected result from setting flight mode. I was wondering what each part did
[13:00] <ibanezmatt13> I know the header must remain the same
[13:00] <ibanezmatt13> And the checksum
[13:00] <ibanezmatt13> But I'm not sure about class, id and message
[13:00] <ibanezmatt13> sorry, class, id, length, ackclass, ackid
[13:01] <ibanezmatt13> not fully sure what each mean
[13:01] <blackbox> heya guys... A random question.. have any of you used the invertek ISM300F2-C5-C0004 GPS module?
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> not here
[13:01] <blackbox> I am struglling to know how much it weighs
[13:01] <blackbox> *struggling
[13:01] <Bo_DK> blackbox: does datasheet not say?
[13:02] <SpeedEvil> Assume a density of about 2
[13:02] <blackbox> nope
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[13:02] <SpeedEvil> From the enclosing bbox
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[13:07] <ibanezmatt13> setNav = bytearray.fromhex("B5 62 06 24 00 16 DC")
[13:07] <ibanezmatt13> b5 + 62 = header 06 + 24 = id 00 = length 16 + dc = checksum
[13:07] <ibanezmatt13> I think that's ok to send
[13:08] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: will the ublox respond with the same ack as before if I send it a "no payload" UBX command?
[13:09] <Iain_G4SGX_> yep, then it should respond with CFG-NAVS settings. Ublox Data sheet page 118 & 119
[13:10] <Iain_G4SGX_> Not sure you get an Ack as your not setting anything
[13:11] <ibanezmatt13> well, I'm literally polling the GPS for its flightmode settings without setting it
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[13:11] <ibanezmatt13> So the UBX command contains no payload when I send it
[13:11] <ibanezmatt13> so I'm working out what the ack will be
[13:11] <ibanezmatt13> http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/u-blox6_ReceiverDescriptionProtocolSpec_%28GPS.G6-SW-10018%29.pdf how does page 91 link to page 118
[13:12] <ibanezmatt13> about getting flight mode ack without setting it
[13:12] <ibanezmatt13> it seems like you get the same ack for sending any cfg command, is that true?
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[13:13] <Iain_G4SGX_> No, the ID changes to match the ID you sent, hopeully.
[13:14] <ibanezmatt13> setNav = bytearray.fromhex("B5 62 06 24 00 16 DC")
[13:14] <ibanezmatt13> b5 + 62 = header 06 + 24 = id 00 = length 16 + dc = checksum
[13:14] <ibanezmatt13> would that work?
[13:14] <ibanezmatt13> if I sent that?
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[13:15] <Iain_G4SGX_> If the checksum is correct yes, it should respond with a full CG-Nav5 string, whic you can parse the flight mode from i beleive, but i am no expert, best check
[13:16] <ibanezmatt13> how can I tell if flight mode is set from that message?
[13:16] <ibanezmatt13> ack
[13:17] <ibanezmatt13> ah, I see
[13:17] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[13:17] <Iain_G4SGX_> Byte offset 2 of the payload should be 0x06. Page 119
[13:18] <ibanezmatt13> so flight mode is true if the id of the ack is 0x05 and 0x01
[13:18] <ibanezmatt13> and not true if the ack ids are 0x05 and 0x00
[13:19] <ibanezmatt13> wow this is confusing
[13:20] <Iain_G4SGX_> As I said, not sure you get an ack if you just poll for settings, you DO get the resultant CFG-NAV5 string though.
[13:21] <ibanezmatt13> ah right, just trying to work out what that should be
[13:22] <Iain_G4SGX_> I THINK, (someone please correct me) only get an Ack if you are setting via a CFG command, polls do not get an ack
[13:23] <ibanezmatt13> is there an example of what a poll returns then?
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[13:27] <Iain_G4SGX_> A full 36Byte length CFG-NAV5 string, page 119 again. will be 0xb5 0x62 0x06 0x24 yada yada yada
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[13:30] <Iain_G4SGX_> I dont know python but I'd send the poll request, receive the response and check that byte 12 (best check that) conrtains 0x06 for flight mode.
[13:31] <Upu> its not a flight mode issue ibanezmatt13
[13:31] <Upu> if it was you would have lost it at 12km
[13:31] <ibanezmatt13> hmm
[13:31] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: at the moment I'm all the time setting flight mode in order to check it
[13:32] <ibanezmatt13> perhaps that could cause issues occasionally
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[13:33] <Iain_G4SGX_> ibanezmatt13: When I say page 119 it the page number at the bottom of ther page, not the page number on the PDF, sorry
[13:33] <ibanezmatt13> oh, I'll check
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[13:33] <DL7AD> good afternoon
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[13:35] <ibanezmatt13> I literally just need a way to check flight mode instead of set it and check it. I just need to poll the flight mode settings
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[13:36] <mattbrejza> ibanezmatt13: all you really need to do is sent flight mode every few seconds
[13:36] <mattbrejza> dont bother chcking it
[13:36] <mattbrejza> what are you gonna do at 15km if you find that its unset?
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> that would be the easiest option I guess
[13:36] <mattbrejza> other than try again but then youre setting it every min anyway
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> I'll look into it
[13:37] <mattbrejza> then when youre testing, get a serial stick, monitor the output with ucetnre or a hex terminal and just check that youre sending the right text
[13:37] <mattbrejza> what does it do currently if no flight mode is detected?
[13:39] <ibanezmatt13> just sends False in the telemetry
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[13:40] <ibanezmatt13> mattbrejza: If I just keep the set flight mode bit in my code and do it every so often, that should be enough I guess?
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[13:42] <Iain_G4SGX_> I thik you really need some more dubug info, or its all guesswork. You need another flight with debug info to file to be sure.
[13:42] <RocketBoy> I only put my uBlox 6/7 in flight mode once (unless its stops responding) - never had any problems
[13:43] <Randomskk> I put my ublox on flight mode once _ever_ and it was fine
[13:43] <Randomskk> (did have an i2c memory attached)
[13:43] <ibanezmatt13> The NORB flight revealed generally that setting flight mode worked
[13:43] <RocketBoy> run a GPS log file through it
[13:44] <ibanezmatt13> yes I will do
[13:50] <Upu> it WAS in flight mode ibanezmatt13
[13:51] <Iain_G4SGX_> If your not in flight mode for some reason, its just the co-ords returned are innacurate I thought. It still returns long and lat
[13:52] <Upu> not always
[13:52] <Upu> listen it worked above 12km
[13:52] <Upu> so this wasn't a not in flight mode issue
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[13:53] <Upu> if your program continued to run
[13:53] <Upu> the Pi didn't crash
[13:54] <Upu> so go from there
[13:54] <Iain_G4SGX_> I think he's thinking his constant setting of mode may have confused his code somehow. The counter was still incrementing so as you say there was no crash
[13:55] Nick change: KipK_away -> Kipkool
[13:56] <Upu> if it confused the code it would have done it more ?
[13:56] <Upu> connection problems
[13:56] <fsphil> the only part of the program that could stop transmitting like happened yesterday is the part that waits on a valid string from the gps
[13:56] <fsphil> I'd stick a timeout on that
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[13:58] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK
[13:59] <Iain_G4SGX_> Tis possible. Is there no timeout? Always a killer with serial comms if not.
[14:00] <ibanezmatt13> ok Upu, I'll leave the s/w as it is. Must have been hardware then
[14:00] <Upu> well possibly not
[14:00] <ibanezmatt13> there is a timeout of 1 second
[14:00] <fsphil> there is a timeout on the serial port, but the loop will continue forever until it receives what it expects
[14:00] <Iain_G4SGX_> Ahh..
[14:00] <Iain_G4SGX_> persue that
[14:03] <fsphil> it's the only part of the program that could have done what we saw -- either the gps was sending unusual data or no data
[14:03] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: There's a timeout already of 1 second
[14:03] <fsphil> on the serial port yes ibanezmatt13
[14:03] <ibanezmatt13> you mean in that while not loop?
[14:03] <fsphil> but your loop will go forever until it receives a string that starts with $PUBX
[14:04] <ibanezmatt13> but if it were to continue, the program would fail
[14:04] <ibanezmatt13> because it would try and parse all the fields of data and there wouldn't be any
[14:04] <fsphil> handle the error -- transmit an error message and break out of the function
[14:05] <fsphil> better than a silent carrier :)
[14:05] <ibanezmatt13> good point
[14:05] <fsphil> I don't really trust the readline / startswith bit
[14:05] <ibanezmatt13> So just an error field, 1 = problem, 0 = no error
[14:05] <ibanezmatt13> what would you do instead of that ^^?
[14:05] <fsphil> if the gps did happen to send an extra character or two before the string, the loop wouldn't recognise it
[14:06] <fsphil> look for an $ first
[14:06] <Bo_DK> upu arround now?
[14:06] <fsphil> once you see an $, you know you can read until you get to the \n
[14:06] <Iain_G4SGX_> Often loose first chars after a long pause on a uart
[14:06] <Joel_re> anyone got any gps parsing code online
[14:06] <Bo_DK> need some advice on board layout and spec switching reg's and ublox
[14:06] <fsphil> with a timeout of course :)
[14:06] <Joel_re> Im looking for optimizations
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[14:07] <Joel_re> my code is bloated :\
[14:07] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: it checks for $pubx currently
[14:07] <Upu> Hi Bo_DK very busy sorry please do ask on here though people may be able to help you
[14:07] <fsphil> what if it's half way through sending another line when you call readline() ibanezmatt13 ?
[14:08] <Bo_DK> Upu... np... i have done that
[14:08] <Bo_DK> no answer yet
[14:08] <ibanezmatt13> someone said that but I never worked out how to fix that fsphil
[14:08] <Upu> be patient :)
[14:08] <mattbrejza> Bo_DK: copy the ref design in the datasheet
[14:08] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: I just did :)
[14:08] <mattbrejza> then ask people to take alook
[14:08] <Bo_DK> i have that too
[14:08] <Bo_DK> and its in dropbox... with datasheets
[14:08] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: read characters until you find the $
[14:09] <Bo_DK> my plan is to get this to work within a month if i can help it
[14:09] <ibanezmatt13> then what will come after the $ fsphil? Will the very next character be P?
[14:09] <fsphil> might be
[14:09] <Bo_DK> and if peeps are interested make a small bath run of them
[14:09] <fsphil> but after you find the $ you can call readline() to get the rest of it
[14:09] <ibanezmatt13> if not?
[14:09] <ibanezmatt13> ah
[14:09] <Iain_G4SGX_> I had an issue where I had received a string and reponded too quick for the Ublox, needs a little pause..
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[14:10] <fsphil> yea put a little pause after setting nav mode
[14:11] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[14:11] <ibanezmatt13> erm
[14:11] <Iain_G4SGX_> Only a few clock cycles, a few liones of code did it for me
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[14:12] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza & others: dropbox link https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ffhrigdf29zb5om/CdkEst8aoL
[14:12] <Bo_DK> buttom layer might not show up.. i have turned it off
[14:12] <Bo_DK> on buttom layer is ublox and regulators for 5 and 3.3V
[14:12] <mattbrejza> png nexxt time please
[14:13] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: Do I have to read a line from the serial before I check for $? Or is there a better way?
[14:13] <Bo_DK> will be here to answer q's etc
[14:13] <Iain_G4SGX_> ibanezmatt13: I feel for you, so many points of view, must be conffusing.
[14:13] <Bo_DK> can do a png...
[14:13] <ibanezmatt13> yea, and it's not like I have much programming knowledge :/
[14:13] <Iain_G4SGX_> yet..
[14:13] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[14:15] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: png of schematic syncing to dropbox
[14:15] <ibanezmatt13> I just can't understand how to go about checking for a $ then checking for a "pubx"
[14:16] <mattbrejza> well i hope thats not the final resting place of the ublox and antenna
[14:16] <Bo_DK> same here
[14:16] <Bo_DK> nope...
[14:16] <Bo_DK> its just as far i have gotten
[14:16] <Bo_DK> thought it would be best to place it as much alone i could
[14:16] <Bo_DK> ie on buttom layers
[14:16] <Bo_DK> layer
[14:17] <Iain_G4SGX_> You not using UBX? never used pubx in my thang, just parsed for UBX strings, thought that was NMEA. Now Im confused
[14:17] <Bo_DK> i also use ground plane on both top and buttom layer
[14:17] <ibanezmatt13> not as confused as me Iain_G4SGX_
[14:18] <Iain_G4SGX_> Upu?
[14:18] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: what should i do with ublox?
[14:19] <Bo_DK> you cant see it on png's
[14:19] <mattbrejza> are you sure placing those thick (i guess) regs on the bottom is a good idea when thers a BBB below?
[14:19] <Bo_DK> reason why i shared eagle is so everyone can see and also change
[14:20] <Bo_DK> regs on button was only to get space on top layer
[14:20] <Bo_DK> i will try and fit them on top layer again
[14:20] <mattbrejza> also there are much smaller step downs
[14:20] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: how should I check that there is a $
[14:21] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: ?
[14:21] <Bo_DK> oh... i just grapped a ref design for this
[14:21] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: I can't see how to loop until I've read a $ then carry on :/
[14:21] <Bo_DK> will note down to look for smaller ones
[14:21] <mattbrejza> not entirely sure you can get 680uF 1812 ceramics
[14:22] <mattbrejza> not that i think you need 680u mind you
[14:22] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: how do you read one character from the serial port?
[14:22] <Bo_DK> i have sourced all parts
[14:22] <ibanezmatt13> serial.read(1) fsphil ?
[14:22] <Bo_DK> RS components part numbers on schematic in eagle
[14:23] <mattbrejza> lay out your gps like this http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=53
[14:23] <Bo_DK> its all pure rip off from ref designs... and stuff might not be right... something could be smaller i assume
[14:24] <Bo_DK> thanks.... :-D
[14:24] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: and go from there :)
[14:24] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: but is it a good idea to have gps by itself?
[14:24] <ibanezmatt13> while True: if serial.inWaiting() > 0 a = serial.read(1) if a == "$": nmea = serial.readline() if not it should loop. fsphil ?
[14:24] <mattbrejza> well dont put switching stuff near or below it
[14:25] <Bo_DK> bugger.... got a 404 when i tried to download eagle files for breakout
[14:25] <LeoBodnar> Bo_DK: Have you ever built any working projects you can show?
[14:25] <Iain_G4SGX_> I dont check the checksum on my long/lat return string. Over 24 hours of operation (in the lab) I had zero comm errors. Wondering whether its worth the effort but am aware cold may shorten the timing on the Ublox causing synch errors.
[14:25] <Bo_DK> LeoBodnar: yeah... gsm remote for a preheater in my car
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[14:26] <Bo_DK> Laurenceb: interface so a raspi can control a toaster oven
[14:26] <Bo_DK> uppps
[14:26] <mattbrejza> also youve done a lets say interesting job of copying the lt3652 ref schematic
[14:26] <Bo_DK> last was also for LeoBodnar
[14:27] <Iain_G4SGX_> Can I assume most people check the checksum on every position return?
[14:27] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: i just do as good i can... hence i ask for help...
[14:27] <fsphil> always worth testing a checksum if one is provided
[14:27] <LeoBodnar> I think this project is too large a step.
[14:27] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: if i was as good as experts i would not ask
[14:27] <fsphil> though as you say serial comms is pretty good usually
[14:27] <mattbrejza> it does feel like your asking us to design the entire pcb though
[14:28] <Bo_DK> LeoBodnar: so i should just give up? and what would i learn from that?
[14:28] <LeoBodnar> I'd say yes.
[14:28] <Iain_G4SGX_> Hmm, code overheads, all those wasted clock cycles, thinbk of the wasted power leo! lol
[14:28] <Bo_DK> LeoBodnar: why not just ignore me them?
[14:28] <mattbrejza> you learn from doing manageable projects
[14:28] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: wouldn't bother checking how many bytes there are
[14:28] <mattbrejza> you can still do this, but maybe this massive pcb isnt the way to start
[14:28] <mattbrejza> get it working in parts first
[14:29] <mattbrejza> buy premade switching regs and so forth
[14:29] <mattbrejza> or make your own ones on small seperate boards
[14:29] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: to expensive to get several boards done
[14:29] <LeoBodnar> Iain_G4SGX_: B-10 was retrieved fully inflated and ready to go again.
[14:29] <Iain_G4SGX_> YAy
[14:29] <mattbrejza> switching regs are a right pita, and tbh having three on one board is asking for trouble
[14:29] <Iain_G4SGX_> I'll inflate my pneumatic mast..
[14:29] <mattbrejza> a 5x5 board is only $9.90
[14:30] <LeoBodnar> I have spotted it on the hill in the distance and by the time I got there walkers with kids were already marching it to their car :D
[14:30] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: yep... multiply with 5.5 to get my currency... and sorry to say but have limited funds
[14:30] <Iain_G4SGX_> Timing is everything.
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[14:30] <mattbrejza> but at least youll ge tsomething that you can get working
[14:31] <Bo_DK> anyways... will try and use the few pointers from now and correct it
[14:31] <fsphil> L-10b launching soon? :)
[14:31] <mattbrejza> use stripboard?
[14:31] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/6334136 how's that?
[14:31] <LeoBodnar> Solar panels have been damaged so need repair.
[14:31] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: dont have that... i have spend quite an amount to get smd tools here
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[14:31] <Bo_DK> pick and place is one
[14:31] <Bo_DK> reflow oven was another
[14:32] <Bo_DK> oh well i will get it sooner or later
[14:32] <mattbrejza> you bought a reflow oven?
[14:32] <LeoBodnar> So I guess temperature lag or accumulation of supercooled water has caused it to come down first and rain - the second
[14:32] <mattbrejza> pcb cost should be minimal iin comparison
[14:32] <Bo_DK> mattbrejza: yes
[14:32] <Bo_DK> it needs a new temp prope thou
[14:32] <mattbrejza> oh not new
[14:33] <mattbrejza> you can so smd with copper clad board and a scapel
[14:33] <tweetBot> @thecraag: 3D renderings of my new 'SCORCH' HAB GPS tracker PCB, almost ready for hackvana! http://t.co/VUJfKx49AI #ukhas
[14:34] <mattbrejza> no point in spending $20*5 for this pcb if thers a good chance that a swich mode reg is gonna screw you over and not work
[14:34] <Bo_DK> maybe i will just pay someone to do the board
[14:34] <LeoBodnar> Aluminium metallisation peeled off slightly from inside of the balloon after full day at 8000m but original free lift is still there amazingly.
[14:34] <Bo_DK> who knows
[14:35] <mattbrejza> craag: brave, switch mode under the ublox :P
[14:35] <mattbrejza> but nice board
[14:35] <mattbrejza> and nice use of cc430 ;)
[14:36] <craag> mattbrejza: It's got a well stitched ground plane between them, fingers crossed!
[14:36] <craag> Thanks
[14:36] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: I'd stick a timeout in there too
[14:36] <ibanezmatt13> in where?
[14:36] <fsphil> the while loop
[14:36] <craag> Not just need to get rid of the <0.1mm clearances.
[14:36] <craag> *Now
[14:36] <mattbrejza> craag: yea they can take some abuse, just have to be careful
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[14:37] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: a timer based one? Like, if duration since start <= 3
[14:37] <fsphil> exactly ibanezmatt13
[14:37] <fsphil> have it break out if it's still looping after a few seconds
[14:37] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[14:38] <mattbrejza> craag: as a follow on to picotex i was thinking gps above battery and radio below, like you have it, but i would have had a bit of ribbon cable
[14:38] <mattbrejza> that is somewhat neater
[14:39] <craag> mattbrejza: There are large areas of track on the corners of each board for the legs. So for AA the sides can be snipped off, soldermask scraped off the corners and wires soldered around.
[14:40] <mattbrejza> ah :)
[14:40] <craag> Or even D cells.. if you could get them in Lithium.
[14:40] <mattbrejza> you can get C, we used two for apex I (might ahve been D, who knows)
[14:40] <craag> Does also mean you could put a long cable in and have a meter or so of seperation :)
[14:40] <craag> Oh cool
[14:41] <mattbrejza> all this pico'ing means i want to redo mine
[14:41] <mattbrejza> but too much other stuff :P
[14:41] <mattbrejza> annoyingly i could have put a battery back on the back of the new tracker
[14:43] <GMT> Leo, where was B-10 recovered from, how far did it get, anywhere near Henley?
[14:45] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: what will the timeout do?
[14:45] <ibanezmatt13> break out of the while loop or something
[14:46] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: look at my newly made code https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/6334136
[14:46] <ibanezmatt13> it checks for a $ then if it gets one it checks for a "gpgga"
[14:46] <ibanezmatt13> But the checking bit runs in the main loop
[14:46] <ibanezmatt13> so the timeout would end the program
[14:47] <ibanezmatt13> so perhaps I should make the checking bit into its own function?
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[14:47] <LeoBodnar> GMT: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.614752,-0.888927&hl=en&sll=51.614752,-0.888927&sspn=0.003757,0.009645&t=h&z=15 (green mark)
[14:47] <fsphil> I don't see the timeout
[14:48] <ibanezmatt13> not done yet fsphil
[14:48] <LeoBodnar> 5 miles North of Henley
[14:48] <fsphil> ah
[14:49] <ibanezmatt13> ok fsphil https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/6334136
[14:49] <Iain_G4SGX_> I suppose rain could account for a few grammes of MINUS lift, wonder how many.. Any experiments done? Seems like most flights in rain have come down.
[14:50] <GMT> LeoBodnar: wow, luckt for it to land in open countryside, loads of trees in that part of the Chilterns
[14:50] <LeoBodnar> Plastics can hold 20-30 grams of water per m^2
[14:51] <LeoBodnar> Yes, lovely place for not-HABing
[14:51] <Iain_G4SGX_> Wow, And a foil floater floating quite low, ie below some cloud levels.
[14:51] <ibanezmatt13> ah, forgot to re open serial fsphil
[14:51] <GMT> LeoBodnar: I was going to go look for it this afternoon, but your message arrived just in time
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[14:52] <LeoBodnar> After it came down to 2000-3000m rain will take over but it wasn't rain that dragged it down from 8000
[14:52] <ibanezmatt13> that should do it fsphil https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/6334136
[14:52] <Iain_G4SGX_> Maybee spray foils with water repellenat teflon stuff?
[14:52] <LeoBodnar> Cheers GMT
[14:53] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: why bother passing in the time. the function can get it itself
[14:53] <LeoBodnar> Done already Iain_G4SGX_ - didn't help :)
[14:53] <Iain_G4SGX_> LeoBodanr: why did it fall then if you say it still has same lift?
[14:53] <ibanezmatt13> oh of course, one sec
[14:54] <LeoBodnar> It was rained on and got tangled in grass.
[14:54] <ibanezmatt13> ok fsphil https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/6334136
[14:56] <Iain_G4SGX_> I think its amazing that after so many thousands of years us humans still have areas we know jack s**t about. Nature still keeps her secrets and we're still learning.
[14:56] <LeoBodnar> And eventually we will disappear none the wiser.
[14:57] <Iain_G4SGX_> Indeed
[14:57] <LeoBodnar> Isn't it an uplifting thought?
[14:57] <Iain_G4SGX_> Good fun though while it lasts! lol
[14:57] <LeoBodnar> Agreed
[14:57] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: you reckon that's good enough flight code?
[15:01] <LeoBodnar> Under these circumstances floating a foil balloon below 10,000m seems quite a challenge. I don't know how B-6 managed to stay up for 3 days
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[15:06] <Iain_G4SGX_> Cos it wasn't in the UK for most of the time probably. Radar showed lots of rain just there last night. I actually got up at 3am to check if it was still airborne. How sad is that.
[15:06] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: GPS.read(1) returns nothing at al
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[15:07] <ibanezmatt13> hang on might know why
[15:08] <LeoBodnar> Iain_G4SGX_: lol thanks
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[15:09] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: something else that might help debug post flight is set your code up so it logs to disk rather than to the console.
[15:09] <number10> there was no split in the balloon LeoBodnar ?
[15:09] <LeoBodnar> The descent is so consistent that it can only be explained by something that happened at altitude.
[15:09] <LeoBodnar> number10: it still has original free lift
[15:10] <Iain_G4SGX_> Maybe a seagull took a quick rest ? lol
[15:10] <LeoBodnar> I don't believe there is any rain at -28C level
[15:10] <number10> interesting. very difficult these foil balloons you have done well so far
[15:10] <ibanezmatt13> yeah mfa298 I should have done that
[15:10] <LeoBodnar> They seem to be quite a challange.
[15:11] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[15:11] <number10> I made a mistake last time and used the same batch that the previous two failed
[15:11] <LeoBodnar> Hi jcoxon
[15:11] <number10> afternoon jcoxon
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[15:12] <Iain_G4SGX_> If it has same lift, and no rain thats interesting.
[15:13] <LeoBodnar> Yes, it did not lose any Helium
[15:13] <Iain_G4SGX_> Odd.
[15:13] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298: The way I was constantly setting flightmode to check it, would that definitely not cause any issues? I don't think it would but what do you think?
[15:14] <LeoBodnar> Metallisation must have peeled off because of the strain under pressure
[15:14] <mfa298> I've not done anything like that yet so can't say for sure but in reading all the scrollback it seemed like there shouldn't be an issue setting flightmode often
[15:15] <mfa298> I think I'd agree with what fsphil was suggesting about your code getting stuck in a loop because it wasn't getting what it wanted from gps (maybe due to no lock)
[15:16] <mfa298> but without any information from during the flight I'm not sure you'll ever know (hence log messages to file)
[15:16] <ibanezmatt13> So if I change the way it checks for a lock, that should be enough really
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[15:17] <mfa298> if you do it in a way that you can still send strings with no lock that should help
[15:17] <number10> cant remember if you have it already ibanezmatt13, but have number of sats in the telemetry string
[15:17] <ibanezmatt13> already got it number10
[15:17] <mfa298> whilst you won't gain any more data if there's no lock at least if you send strings you know the code is working.
[15:18] <number10> did you sort out why there were no stats ibanezmatt13
[15:18] <ibanezmatt13> sats?
[15:18] <ibanezmatt13> satellites?
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[15:19] <ibanezmatt13> What I'd really like to do is change lines 143-153 of this code: https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/6333763#L143 to make it a little more reliable. But I'm not sure exactly how.
[15:19] <mfa298> a lot of people have a status field which can indicate errors (either a letter, or a number) If you go the number route you can indicate several on/off things at once if you use a power of two for each item (1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128) and sum the ones you need.
[15:20] <number10> ibanezmatt13: http://habitat.habhub.org/stats/
[15:20] <ibanezmatt13> ah I see
[15:21] <number10> so if you look flight list and click say xaben55 you get a nice pie chart of who tracked
[15:21] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, looks good
[15:21] <number10> but unfortunately nothing for NORB
[15:21] <ibanezmatt13> not sure why
[15:22] <ibanezmatt13> I'd just like to change lines 143-153 of this code: https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/6333763#L143. Then I can log stuff to a file on the Pi to check
[15:22] <ibanezmatt13> Just working out how to change it :P
[15:23] <mfa298> I'd possibly do something along the lines of get a string of data, check lock (and update a status value), parse it, send it (including status) and repeat.
[15:24] <mfa298> so send whether you have lock or not, but the status indicates if the data is useful or not
[15:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> Randomskk, tried a copule of others no problems. One suggestion however in the "Document" "Name" field you just have "Habitat Data Exporrt"
[15:26] <Randomskk> yea so I wanted to have the payload name
[15:27] <Randomskk> but it turns out that would be a huge undertaking
[15:27] <Geoff-G8DHE> any chance of adding or using the Flight name and Payload name as it makes it easier to identify the data your using if several have been downloaded!
[15:27] <Randomskk> the data just doesn't exist where and when it needs to
[15:27] <Randomskk> well "huge" is an overkill
[15:27] <Randomskk> I mean I thought of a way it could be done, it's just fiddly and messy
[15:27] <Randomskk> so I will consider :P
[15:27] <Geoff-G8DHE> OK its not a major factor, just a nice touch to have so don't worry about!
[15:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> The callsign info is in the data so its not difficult to rename manually at all, and once you realise that then its a case of rename as you go.
[15:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> If we can find a Bar at the conference I'll be buying you two a beer or two - many thanks!
[15:31] <Randomskk> hmmm I wonder if you could... hmm...
[15:32] <Randomskk> forgot the callsign is in the data
[15:32] <Randomskk> might be able to put payload callsign as the doc name
[15:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> Thats an improvment means that two files aren't likely to have the same name!
[15:33] <craag> I think Randomskk might be under the table before everyone catches up on the drinks they owe him..
[15:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> aren't the Flight and Payload available from the requesting page ?
[15:33] <Randomskk> it's DanielRichman I'm worried about :P
[15:33] <Randomskk> Geoff-G8DHE: yesss
[15:33] <Randomskk> but not from the actual code that generates the kml
[15:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> indeed
[15:33] <Randomskk> which only gets one line of telemetry at a time
[15:33] <Randomskk> and can't look ahead or behind really
[15:34] <craag> yeah him too! Payload doc hotfixing..
[15:34] <DanielRichman> pssh bring it on
[15:34] <craag> :)
[15:34] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: is it too evil to have the JS put in the query strnig?
[15:34] <DanielRichman> wait... can you put arbitrary keys in there or will couch be unhappy?
[15:35] <Randomskk> I _think_ you can have JS put it in the qstring
[15:35] <Randomskk> and I _think_ couch will be OK with that
[15:35] <Randomskk> but it's a bit... :(
[15:35] <Randomskk> however
[15:35] <Randomskk> doc.data.payload has the payload callsign
[15:35] <Randomskk> and I can hold onto that while going through the data
[15:35] <Randomskk> then emit the <name> _after_ the data
[15:38] <Geoff-G8DHE> G7PMO_Kev, How are you getting on with SDR-Radio, had time to play yet ?
[15:39] <Randomskk> there Geoff-G8DHE
[15:39] <Randomskk> try that
[15:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> OK
[15:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes yes looks good, the callsign appears nicely http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/index.php?ind=1
[15:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> I'll no longer need to keep all the tracks as well now!
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[15:52] <Randomskk> that's great
[15:52] <Randomskk> I can probably add basic style info as well
[15:52] <Randomskk> like change the colour and the icons for the markers
[15:52] <Randomskk> much point?
[15:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Well that would be nice I think colours aren't critical, nice touch would be the Icons for launch, burst and Landing I use the standard ones from the Tracker site
[15:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> when I manaully tweak it
[15:57] <Randomskk> I can probably just copy what spacenear.us does
[15:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> There the ones
[15:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> I normally choose a colour for the line and then select the same for the Balloon/burst/landing icons
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[16:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://spacenear.us/tracker/images/markers/parachute-blue.png etc.
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[16:02] <Geoff-G8DHE> about the only other factor would be to change Opacity to 50% on the Track Segment I'll find the KML tags for it one second
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[16:08] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah its part of the choice for colour for the Opacity
[16:08] <Steve_2E0VET> Anyone had issues getting the bpm805 (I think it is) working
[16:08] <Randomskk> does spacenear.us automatically set those icons?
[16:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> No I normally alter them myself to make it easier to see the flight path, at the default 100% it hides any loops behind the foreground
[16:10] <GMT> ISS coming up for an overhead pass of London in 5 minutes
[16:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> Let me check that again
[16:12] <Steve_2E0VET> Any voice in iss today
[16:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes it does set it up at 50% Opacity
[16:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> so you should be able to see the code from the spavenear.us output
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[16:13] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298_: could you create a PM for a second?
[16:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> Randomskk, see http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/Track%20Segment.kml
[16:15] <Geoff-G8DHE> its the PolyStyle Tag
[16:15] <Randomskk> ok
[16:15] <Randomskk> just the color 33ffffff bit?
[16:16] <GMT> Steve_2E0VET: don't know if any voice, got SDR running so I can cover freqs ... just in case
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[16:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes thats the bit, it seems to be within the Icon tags
[16:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> at least the <Style>
[16:17] <Randomskk> with spacenear.us, it sets the icons to icons/palette-4.png
[16:17] <Randomskk> is that good? is that better than the default push pin?
[16:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> No its a simple Cross
[16:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> the default is better
[16:18] <Randomskk> ok
[16:19] <Randomskk> how about the spacenear.us default for lines?
[16:19] <Randomskk> it sets LineStyle to color ffff0000 with width 4 and PolyStyle to color 7fffffff
[16:20] <Randomskk> which will be a solid red line for the path, thick, and a 50% opacity white line for the poly (which I guess is the fill for estruding)
[16:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> Not much differnce I think it uses 4 for the width, which might be a tad thicker but don't worry about its the sort of thing that I choose depending on background colour sea/desert/landscape etc.
[16:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> Any setting doesn't work well with all the other possibilities and if you have several on a map then colour choice has to be changed anyway to help difrentiate
[16:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> just the Opacity/colour I find 33fffff quite good
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[16:29] <mattbrejza> anyone know on gnuplot how to get '10^-2' to actually display nicely?
[16:31] <Willdude123> I prefer desmos, but not used gnuplot
[16:31] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[16:33] <Randomskk> mattbrejza: latex
[16:34] <Randomskk> $10^{-2}$ might work
[16:34] <Randomskk> I use matplotlib... :P
[16:34] <mattbrejza> yea but i cba to do a presentation in latex
[16:34] <Randomskk> no
[16:34] <Randomskk> just put latex into gnuplot
[16:34] <Randomskk> it renders it
[16:34] <Randomskk> on the chart
[16:34] <Willdude123> Ping eroomde
[16:34] <mattbrejza> oh, i think that only works with eps output
[16:34] <Randomskk> pretty sure it can do that for other things
[16:34] <Randomskk> but might just be too used to matplotlib
[16:35] <Randomskk> it can defo do 10^-2 nicely
[16:35] <mattbrejza> its an annoying thing to google too
[16:35] <Randomskk> google "gnuplot superscript"
[16:35] <Randomskk> >.>
[16:35] <mattbrejza> :P
[16:35] <mattbrejza> thats the key word
[16:36] <Randomskk> ok Geoff-G8DHE try that
[16:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ok a few seconds
[16:37] <Randomskk> yea no rush
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[16:41] <ibanezmatt13> Upu, you around?
[16:41] <Upu> yup for a min or two
[16:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/index.php?ind=2 Yup that's fine can see thru to what's behind now brilliant!
[16:41] <ibanezmatt13> could you pm me?
[16:41] <Randomskk> great
[16:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Boy I wish I had such responsive programmers when I was PM software jobs!
[16:43] <Randomskk> :P
[16:44] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, couldn't you just pm him, as opposed to asking him to pm you?
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[16:46] <mattbrejza> gnuplot is annoying, upon creating a file you cant look at it as gnuplot keeps the file open ¬.¬
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[16:46] <Randomskk> if you create the file it opens and truncates
[16:47] <Randomskk> when you write the image you can view immediately
[16:47] <Randomskk> use matplotlib (and numpy)
[16:47] <Randomskk> or matlab and its own stuff
[16:47] <Willdude123> Erm
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[16:47] <Randomskk> gnuplot is at best useful for quickly checking out a csv
[16:47] <mattbrejza> matlabs plotting is a bit ugly
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[16:47] <mattbrejza> however i would be done by now
[16:48] <Randomskk> matplotlib :P
[16:48] <Randomskk> lol fe
[16:48] <Randomskk> well gnuplot can be nice eventually
[16:52] <Willdude123> My netbook is getting really hot
[16:52] <Willdude123> Probably because I have 3 tabs open, and a torrent client
[16:52] <Willdude123> And an irc client.
[16:52] <Willdude123> It crashes when I send long messages :)
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[16:53] <Randomskk> lol sounds productive
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[17:12] <Willdude123> hi eroomde_
[17:14] <eroomde_> hi
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[17:15] <Willdude123> I was gonna say something to you but I forgot :)
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[17:15] <Willdude123> Ah yes is there a better explanation of the topology bit?
[17:16] <Willdude123> I didn't really understand it
[17:17] <eroomde__> missed all that
[17:23] <Willdude123> In 1089 and all that
[17:24] <Willdude123> If I have a 39cm^2 0.39 W/CM^2 heating panel, how long would it take to heat a 18 cubic meter room?
[17:26] <mattbrejza> from what to what temperature?
[17:27] <Willdude123> Let's say 8C to 18
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[17:27] <mattbrejza> and your room is how big?
[17:27] <mattbrejza> is loss assumed minimal?
[17:28] <Willdude123> 18 Cubic Meters, if we assume it's square
[17:28] <Willdude123> Loss assumed minimal?
[17:29] <mattbrejza> no draughts etc
[17:29] <Willdude123> Yes
[17:29] <mattbrejza> well insulated room
[17:29] <Willdude123> Well it's a greenhouse so loss probably wouldn't be minimal but
[17:30] <mattbrejza> well air is 1.3kg/m3
[17:30] <mattbrejza> so your geenhouse has 18 * 1.3 kg of air = 23.4kg
[17:30] <Willdude123> Can you let me do the calculations, just so I get some experience with it?
[17:30] <mattbrejza> oh ok
[17:31] <mattbrejza> so work out how much (kg) of air
[17:31] <Willdude123> 23.4kg
[17:31] <Willdude123> :)
[17:31] <mattbrejza> then how many joules is needed per kg per oC of temperature rise is the specific heat capacity of air
[17:31] <mattbrejza> which is 1kJ/kg/C
[17:32] <mattbrejza> so then you can work out how many joules you need to put into the air
[17:32] <Willdude123> So the heater outputs 0.02kJ
[17:32] <Willdude123> Wait no
[17:33] <Randomskk> the heater has a certain number of watts
[17:33] <Willdude123> yes
[17:33] <Willdude123> 20w
[17:33] <Randomskk> which is power (joules per second)
[17:33] <Randomskk> 20W?
[17:33] <Willdude123> Yeah
[17:33] <Randomskk> it's 39cm² and 0.39W/cm²?
[17:34] <Willdude123> 50cm^2
[17:34] <Randomskk> oh. you said 39cm² ^^
[17:34] <Willdude123> Yeah I got that wrong
[17:34] <Randomskk> so ok, 50cm², 19.5W
[17:34] <mattbrejza> so 20J/s
[17:34] <Randomskk> one W is 1 joule a second
[17:34] <Randomskk> so we're on track
[17:34] <mattbrejza> and you have to output so many joules to heat the room
[17:34] <Randomskk> the room is 18m³, we already worked out that's 23.4kg of air
[17:35] <Randomskk> you need 1kJ per kilogram per degree temperature rise
[17:35] <zsentinel> did the bear launch today yet?
[17:35] <Willdude123> So many pers
[17:35] <Randomskk> zsentinel: the bear was yesterday, but didn't jump, so is redoing tomorrow I believe
[17:35] <Willdude123> Light
[17:35] <zsentinel> ah ok
[17:35] <Willdude123> Right
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[17:35] <Randomskk> Willdude123: so then, we want 10C temperature rise?
[17:36] <Randomskk> so work out how many joules to bring the room up to temperature
[17:36] <Randomskk> and then from the power of the heater you can work out the time.
[17:36] <Randomskk> then wave your hands and add on about 20% to account for temperature loss and your result will probably be within one order of magnitude :P
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[17:36] <Willdude123> So 23.4kg
[17:37] <Willdude123> So 23.4kj
[17:37] <Randomskk> per degree
[17:37] <Willdude123> Jeez
[17:37] <Randomskk> and you want ten degrees
[17:37] <Willdude123> This would take aged
[17:37] <Willdude123> *ages
[17:37] <Randomskk> well I have an answer
[17:37] <Randomskk> see what you get
[17:37] <Willdude123> 234kj/20J/s
[17:37] <Randomskk> =
[17:37] <Willdude123> 11.7s
[17:37] <Willdude123> Ah
[17:38] <Randomskk> ...
[17:38] <Willdude123> Oh
[17:38] <Willdude123> Wait
[17:38] <Randomskk> the 'k' means multiply by 1000
[17:38] <Willdude123> I'm stupid
[17:38] <Randomskk> (also it's 19.5W not 20W)
[17:38] <Willdude123> I know
[17:38] <Willdude123> It's 20w
[17:38] Nick change: KipK_away -> Kipkool
[17:38] <Willdude123> I rounded
[17:38] <Randomskk> oh
[17:38] <Randomskk> ok fine
[17:38] <Randomskk> so you get how many seconds?
[17:38] <Willdude123> 11700
[17:38] <Randomskk> which is how many hours?
[17:39] <Willdude123> 3.25
[17:39] <Randomskk> so 3hr15min
[17:39] <Willdude123> Man that's long
[17:39] <Randomskk> seems pretty reasonable
[17:39] <Randomskk> really? ever heated up a room? :P
[17:39] <Randomskk> in reality I imagine it'l be more like 4 or 5 to account for the poor insulation
[17:39] <Willdude123> I suppose at night it wouldn't matter, we could preheat it
[17:39] <Randomskk> and depending on the exterior temperature - if it's actually 2C outdoors you'll lose a lot more heat
[17:39] <Randomskk> you can model the heat loss in a simple system too
[17:39] <Willdude123> And just turn it on to maintain normal daytime temperature
[17:40] <Randomskk> (but in reality you'll have radiative loss to the sky _and_ convective loss to the atmosphere, which is trickier)
[17:40] <Willdude123> I'm not even sure our greenhouse is 18 cm3
[17:40] <mattbrejza> tbh based on my experience of poorly insulated student houses youll probably never get to 18C when its cold outside
[17:40] <Randomskk> hahaha
[17:40] <Willdude123> But that's just a guesstimate
[17:40] <craag> haha
[17:40] <Randomskk> did you actually turn the heating on mattbrejza
[17:40] <Willdude123> But I know how to do it now
[17:40] <mattbrejza> indeed
[17:40] <Randomskk> Willdude123: the secret is to always have units
[17:40] <Randomskk> and keep them going for all results
[17:40] <Randomskk> then you can be sure you got the right thing at the end
[17:40] <craag> heating full blast in my house last year for 13 hours, got to 17 degrees :)
[17:40] <Randomskk> or at least it's a lot more likely
[17:41] <mattbrejza> to the extent that the heat of the pipes was burning the dust and making that 'the heatings on' smell
[17:41] <Willdude123> Yeah. Would it not dissipate around the greenhouse faster if it was attached to a huge lump of metal?
[17:41] <Willdude123> And a fan
[17:41] <Randomskk> wellll
[17:41] <Randomskk> it would spread through the greenhouse a bit faster maybe
[17:41] <Randomskk> though to be honest convection is really fast and it'l convect like nobody's business
[17:41] <Randomskk> but it won't heat up quicker really
[17:41] <Randomskk> the heat transfer through the air is way way quicker than the time it takes to dump energy into the greenhouse
[17:42] <Randomskk> the calc we just did is purely an energy transfer - how much energy needs to be added to the greenhouse "system" to change its state
[17:42] <Randomskk> so it's a _lower_ bound on time
[17:42] <Randomskk> it'l only take longer if the heat doesn't spread out well (e.g. heating an insulated bit of the greenhouse) or there is heat loss
[17:42] <Randomskk> but in reality the heat'l spread really fast
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[17:52] <Willdude123> hmm
[17:52] <Willdude123> I'll email my granddad to show him the heating panel, we can always figure out how best to stabilize the temperature once we have it.
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[17:54] <Randomskk> if you want temperature _control_
[17:54] <Randomskk> then that's a whole different discussion!
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[17:54] <Randomskk> and one I'd be happy to have :P
[17:55] <craag> mm tasty temperature control :)
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[18:43] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:45] <LeoBodnar> Hi Lunar_Lander
[18:45] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[18:46] <eroomde_> things i like #675: seeing how good the cracking on the piece of pork belly is gonna be after only 30 mins in the oven.
[18:52] <LeoBodnar> Decadence
[18:57] <eroomde_> pork belly really?
[18:58] <eroomde_> it's like the best secret weapon for moodiness ever
[18:58] <eroomde_> one of the cheapest cuts
[18:58] <eroomde_> but goes amazing
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[19:00] <Willdude123> Randomskk, why is it a whole different discussion?
[19:00] <LeoBodnar> I was driving up M40 and thought they should replace signs with "Hunger can kill! Take the break"
[19:02] <LeoBodnar> Thermal runaway brought B-10 down eroomde_
[19:02] <eroomde_> nice
[19:02] <eroomde_> seems to be the mechanism du choix
[19:02] <LeoBodnar> IT warmed up and after an hour went up again to 1600m
[19:02] <LeoBodnar> Where rain has finished it off
[19:02] <arko> woah it came back life?
[19:03] <LeoBodnar> Retrieved arko
[19:03] <arko> nice!!
[19:03] <arko> photos?
[19:03] <LeoBodnar> Still full of He
[19:03] <arko> i'm curious to see the balloon
[19:03] <arko> does it have any lift?
[19:03] <LeoBodnar> Full free lift retained - as at launch
[19:04] <arko> nice!
[19:04] <arko> did the solar panels work well?
[19:05] <LeoBodnar> I would like to see where it rested for an hour and how did it manage to start ascending again
[19:05] <LeoBodnar> Yes, very well
[19:07] <Willdude123> Is it me or are parents total useless hypocrites?
[19:08] <Upu> its you
[19:08] <Willdude123> They can't provide an explanation for something, and the things they do explain completely contradict their approach to, say, another event or person
[19:11] <Willdude123> Since they don't let me do the very things I'm interested in, I'll lose interest. If I lose interest, then I just become a human being who has nothing to do all the time
[19:12] <SpeedEvil> Being a parent can be somewhat difficult. :)
[19:13] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: need a way to solve the thermal runaway problem
[19:13] <Willdude123> They said they don't have to explain they can just say stuff and make me do it.
[19:13] <Laurenceb_> i was thinking of drop masses before
[19:13] <Laurenceb_> but its not very nice
[19:13] <Willdude123> I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want kids, I'm not that mean.
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[19:14] <arko> Laurenceb_: water
[19:14] <eroomde_> it freezes
[19:14] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[19:14] <eroomde_> but glycol or something would do the bizzle
[19:14] <arko> darp
[19:14] <Laurenceb_> but could some form of vapour work
[19:14] <Laurenceb_> im thinking a solution that doesnt involve dropping mass
[19:15] <eroomde_> ice
[19:15] <eroomde_> it might sublime
[19:15] <eroomde_> je ne said wotsit
[19:15] <Willdude123> Who in their right mind would willingly introduce an otherwise non existent being into a world of hell, and domination?
[19:15] <Laurenceb_> but vapour doesnt solve anything
[19:15] <eroomde_> Willdude123: not in this channel
[19:15] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: you can just as well have more free lift
[19:15] <Laurenceb_> just makes it more unstable
[19:16] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: actually yeah as its lighter..
[19:16] <arko> how about rubbing alcohol?
[19:16] <Laurenceb_> you can afford more free lift right?
[19:16] <Laurenceb_> need an anti vapour....
[19:16] <Laurenceb_> actually you have a lot of excess energy to hand....
[19:17] <Laurenceb_> if you could vapourize most methanol into the envelope...
[19:17] <Laurenceb_> *some
[19:17] <arko> eh nvm on the iso, probably not a nice thing to spray
[19:17] <Willdude123> eroomde_ fine
[19:17] <arko> glycol is the best i've heard
[19:17] <LeoBodnar> Extra free will help when it goes down and becomes zero-pressured. It's useless in superpressured mode
[19:17] <Laurenceb_> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=methanol
[19:17] <Laurenceb_> hmmm
[19:18] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: it gives leak margin
[19:19] <Laurenceb_> 1.2kJ/gram is still nasty :-/
[19:19] <LeoBodnar> I have dreamt up something which turned out to be dreamt up long time ago and called sky anchor :)
[19:20] <Laurenceb_> heh
[19:20] <Laurenceb_> propanol is nicer
[19:20] <Laurenceb_> 790J/gram
[19:20] <Laurenceb_> doable with a resistor
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[19:21] <ibanezmatt13> Upu: How's things?
[19:21] <arko> this seems a little over engineered no?
[19:21] <LeoBodnar> Makes you go blind? :)
[19:21] <Laurenceb_> arko: not really
[19:21] <Laurenceb_> just need a way to get a well measured quanitity into the envelope
[19:22] <arko> i would hate the see the headline "man blinded by the HAB"
[19:22] <Laurenceb_> then some toiler roll and a resistor in the bottom
[19:22] <Laurenceb_> or cotton wool or something to absorb it
[19:23] <arko> just to get 1 extra flight out of it?
[19:23] <Laurenceb_> no, indefinite
[19:23] <Laurenceb_> it boils into the envelope
[19:24] <arko> ohhhh
[19:24] <arko> man, im getting coffee, i need to wake up
[19:24] <LeoBodnar> Why not just heat the envelope?
[19:24] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[19:24] <Laurenceb_> seems harder
[19:24] <Laurenceb_> but maybe its not
[19:25] <arko> just heat the helium :P
[19:25] <Laurenceb_> thermodynamics is confusing
[19:25] <LeoBodnar> Yes, that is what I meant :)
[19:25] <arko> oh
[19:26] <arko> damn it
[19:26] <LeoBodnar> It's easy, you need energy to do good things
[19:26] <eroomde_> helium warms up as it expands
[19:26] <eroomde_> under some conditions anyway
[19:26] <LeoBodnar> Yes, system density decreases, balloon goes up
[19:26] <LeoBodnar> == hot air balloon
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[19:27] <Laurenceb_> i wonder if He -> H2 would help
[19:27] <Laurenceb_> boiling propanol with a 190mAh cell is feasible, but its not going to be fast :S
[19:27] <LeoBodnar> Dangerous unless forcefully terminated
[19:29] <Laurenceb_> hmm doesnt look like H2 helps much to me
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[19:29] <Laurenceb_> maybe eroomde knows more
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[19:29] <LeoBodnar> I wonder if metallisation is actually bad
[19:30] <LeoBodnar> Delays reaching the thermal balance?
[19:31] <Laurenceb_> im unconvinced
[19:31] <arko> eroomde_: you mean if you were expand the volume of container full of helium, the helium would warm up?
[19:31] <Laurenceb_> especially if its on the inside surface
[19:31] <eroomde_> arko: yes
[19:32] <Laurenceb_> it only takes 200J to warm up the He by 5C
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> Would ideally reflective body will maintain temperature in the absence of convection?
[19:32] <eroomde_> it does the opposite of most gases
[19:32] <arko> but.. pv=nrt?
[19:32] <Laurenceb_> looks like you have 5C cooling i think
[19:32] <Laurenceb_> arko: heat capacity ratio
[19:32] <Laurenceb_> now can you get 200J FAat
[19:32] <Laurenceb_> *fast
[19:33] <eroomde_> pv=nrt is an isentropic thing
[19:33] <eroomde_> er, isothermal
[19:33] <eroomde_> er
[19:33] <eroomde_> one of them
[19:33] <Laurenceb_> youd need like an amp off a lipo :S
[19:33] <Laurenceb_> this is hard
[19:33] <eroomde_> i've had like 4 glasses of fizz who the f knows
[19:33] <arko> lol
[19:33] <Laurenceb_> not a nice problem to solve this...
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> oh wait i know the answer
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> wtf this is too easy
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> you need a fluid that vapourises at higher altitude
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> iirc this was does in the 60s with CFCs
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> Butane?
[19:35] <Laurenceb_> theres surely an obtainium replacement
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> i was wondering the other day about propane/butane as a double glazed window filling.
[19:35] <Laurenceb_> mine use cyclopropane
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> Then i got to wondering what the resultant velocity of the panes was if you light a stochiometric mix..
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[19:38] <LeoBodnar> 190mAh LiPo is about 2500J ?
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[19:41] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[19:41] <LeoBodnar> He is about 1 J/g*K ?
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> 1 J/litre*K ?
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[19:44] <Laurenceb_> yes
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> i think about 200J to get the He heated 5C
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> thats fairly undoable
[19:45] <Laurenceb_> butane phase diagram doesnt work either :-S
[19:45] Action: SpeedEvil wishes small fuel cells were available.
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> Also small jet engines.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> Curvik couplings are awesome.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> - used to align the shafts of jet engines so they can be detached and reattached without balancing again
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> i don't fully understand the geometry
[19:47] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> http://www.geartechnology.com/articles/1186/Curvic_Coupling_Design
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[19:53] <Laurenceb_> annoyingly the vapour pressure/temperature of most liquids tends to follow the lapse rate
[19:53] <Laurenceb_> i guess theres a reason for that :P
[19:53] <Laurenceb_> i read some CFCs work for balloon stabilisation
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[20:04] <Laurenceb_> looks like envelope heating is the best bet to me
[20:05] <Laurenceb_> enthalpy of vaporization is just too high
[20:05] <Laurenceb_> compared to a 5C warming of He
[20:06] <Laurenceb_> i guess you could try a lithium AAA
[20:06] <Laurenceb_> that would give you ~25 envelope rewarmings
[20:07] <Laurenceb_> suspend it in the middle of the envelope and have a fet set to short it out through a small resitor
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[20:11] <LeoBodnar> Suspending a AAA inside a party balloon exceeds the complexity of just spinning your own balloon with extra free lift
[20:12] <LeoBodnar> THe beauty of them is simplicity and availability. Looks like they have their limits too.
[20:13] <LeoBodnar> I would try extra free lift next.
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> the simplest way
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> looks like AAA might acutally work
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> if you could get 1.5A out of it at 0C, as datasheet says
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> thats ~2W, so 100 seconds to warm the envelope
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> We have been discussing a compressed He canister with a valve to rescue sudden descent and relieve valve to vent superpressure next day
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> envelope is about 5C subcooled
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> and falling at ~1m/s max?
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> so thats a 500s temperature equilibrium period
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> so it should be warmed up enough
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> eeek
[20:15] <LeoBodnar> You have at least an hour to act
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> that sounds way harder
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> you could prob get away with AAA on the payload
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> then a fet to a 1ohm resistor
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> need low impedance fet and line
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> Stick the whole thing inside and impedance does not matter :)
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> and should last for about 15 rescues
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> Same heat just different place
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> How did you get subcooled value?
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> i forgot
[20:18] Action: Laurenceb_ galnces down at tons of scrap paper...
[20:18] <LeoBodnar> Negative lift ?
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> from scaling the free lift and ascent rate
[20:18] <LeoBodnar> OK, I trust your calcs
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> to work out the negative lift, then use ideal gas law
[20:18] <LeoBodnar> sure
[20:19] <LeoBodnar> Sounds doable
[20:19] <Laurenceb_> its of order -2g max
[20:19] <LeoBodnar> Yes, looks like very well matched to ascend rate but negative
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> actually it might be a bit higher
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> up to 10C
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> hang on no
[20:20] Action: Laurenceb_ confused
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> when it goes zero pressure, lift is proportional to fractional temp change in kelvin right?
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> so 2/50*270K ~10K
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> then ~7.5grams of helium
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> 7.5*10*5=375J
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> 375/(1.5^2)=167seconds to heat up
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> during that time its falled ~200m
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> *en
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> adiabatic lapse rate is 10C/Km, so equilibrium time is ~1000s or so
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> so it heat it up ok
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> looks like you can correct at the expense of 10% of the AAA energy
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[20:25] <LeoBodnar> I use 7.8g of He
[20:25] <LeoBodnar> You are right there
[20:26] <LeoBodnar> Maybe 8
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> 1000s seems too long for thermal equilbirum
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> but the conditions are a bit odd i guess
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> low pressures and helium gas
[20:28] <LeoBodnar> My data shows AAA Lithium contains about 1.8kJ does this sound right?
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> And reflective coating
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> Oh no, this should not matter
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> But it would have heated up faster with IR absorption
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> more like 4KJ
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> its over 1watt hour
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> You are right
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> My LiPo is 1.5kJ and solar panels generate about 0.28W
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> yeah you could easily do it with the LiPo
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> accept for the internal resistance
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> ... maybe
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> is there a datasheet for it?
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> i guess you could do it in a safe manner
[20:35] <LeoBodnar> Hardly so and I don't know how Rint behaves at -30C but it was bursting with energy yesterday
[20:36] <Laurenceb_> turn off other loads and pwm the resistor
[20:36] <Laurenceb_> monitor battery voltage and keep it in safe territory
[20:37] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_away
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> I only need 150J to get through the night if I shut off everything. I guess staying alive takes precedence over talking.
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> *without resetting the processors
[20:39] <LeoBodnar> Interesting solution, looks like I can give it a go. Stuffing foil balloon through the valve is really fiddly.
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> lipo ESR is going to be nasty at -20C
[20:41] <LeoBodnar> It took 1:30 from the full sunset to start of descent.
[20:42] <LeoBodnar> Use bigger LiPo or LiFePo4 maybe but LiFePo4 energy density is horrible
[20:42] <LeoBodnar> 50% of LiPo
[20:43] <LeoBodnar> So what have caused supercooling in the first place?
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> adiabatic lapse rate
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> maybe you could use NiMH
[20:45] <LeoBodnar> Oh, no way, I need a bigger balloon then
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[20:45] <Laurenceb_> to fly higher?
[20:45] <LeoBodnar> Would this problem scale with balloon size or get better/worse?
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> itd get worse as you go bigger
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> as equilibrium time increases
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> As area/volume ratio drops?
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> so your delta T increases
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> if you can get above 11Km or so into the stratosphere, the problem goes away
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> Maybe go smaller with smaller balloon and lighter electronics
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> Not with 36" qualatex
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> yeah
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[20:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> How much energy is expended as heat from the electronics, could you package the lot inside the balloon
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[20:47] <LeoBodnar> It floats at 10km with no payload
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> Miniscule Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[20:48] <G0TDJ_Steve> Evening guys
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> But you can just as well go wild when you are burning it, say massive strobe light
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> LEDs efficiency is relatively low
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[20:49] <LeoBodnar> Evening G0TDJ_Steve
[20:49] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hey Leo
[20:49] <LeoBodnar> Hey :)
[20:49] <G0TDJ_Steve> Do you know when PIE and TED are trying again tomorrow?
[20:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> its on the tracker
[20:49] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good to hear you got B10 back BTW
[20:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh yeah! :D I missed it Geoff-G8DHE-M
[20:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> Cheers
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> Yes, walkers got hold of it
[20:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> Coolio, good news
[20:51] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hope it's better conditions for the guys tomorrow
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> i guess you could use a chemical reaction
[20:51] <G0TDJ_Steve> When are you likely to try B10 again LeoBodnar ?
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: you just need store sunlight and release it during the night... Even mechanical storage would work
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> lol
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> I am afraid we are going end up with petrochemicals :)
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> to
[20:55] <LeoBodnar> So far winds are not very good - I wish we had larger trackers audience G0TDJ_Steve http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/11019_trj001.gif
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> the dinosaurs were the solar absorbent there
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> so its allcool
[20:55] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, Well, let me know if you can. I'll be there
[20:55] <LeoBodnar> Cheers G0TDJ_Steve :)
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> just need a small amount of explosives
[20:56] <G0TDJ_Steve> Anyway, gotta go. Speak to you later guys :-)
[20:56] <LeoBodnar> Laters Steve!
[20:56] Nick change: G0TDJ_Steve -> G0TDJ_AFK
[20:56] <G0TDJ_AFK> 73 LeoBodnar
[20:57] <LeoBodnar> How exactly does lapse rate work timewise related to the sun Laurenceb_ ?
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> https://courseware.e-education.psu.edu/simsphere/workbook/ch05.html
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> " This leads to the formation of an inversion near the ground at night"
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[21:01] <LeoBodnar> But what causes the balloon to become unbalanced with the environment it is in if it is floating at a constant density altitude? It needs a sort of a shock?
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[21:02] <Laurenceb_> yes
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> so turbulence and stuff
[21:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Does the external temperature make sense with the height cooling from low pressure ?
[21:03] <Upu> hey LeoBodnar can I clear B-10 from map ?
[21:03] <LeoBodnar> The transition to descent seems to be so gentle and gradual. Not like unstable system triggered by a shock.
[21:03] <LeoBodnar> Yes Upu
[21:03] <Upu> ta
[21:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> And at the time its descending the temperature is above 0
[21:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> from previously -28
[21:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> LeoBodnar, From the previous flights where you measured inside several temp's did you not also measure pressure ?
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> I did but it did not do "thermal dive" thing
[21:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> indeed another factor then ?
[21:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I presume there wasn't any weather front moving across at about that time ?
[21:09] <LeoBodnar> It was very wet
[21:09] <LeoBodnar> same as with B-8 http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-8/ it must have done exactly the same. It was raining below in both cases
[21:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> buut not above 7.5Km ?
[21:10] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I doubt if there ius any info on down drafts or similar ?
[21:12] <LeoBodnar> Vertical winds could be quite strong
[21:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> but its quite a distance for the downward force to have operated over on a continous basis :-(
[21:15] <LeoBodnar> I am very confused Geoff-G8DHE-M . Maybe it is a combination of a few phenomena rather than just one simple reason
[21:15] <LeoBodnar> And it looks too smooth and stable for a downdraft
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[21:16] <Will_> Anyone there?
[21:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Do agree, the fact that it seems to carry on for so long and at a constant rate and over such a length and height change weird.
[21:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> on b-8 it did have one dip then steady then angle down ...
[21:17] <Will_> Hello. Is it common to be able to use spacenear.us/tracker in Firefox but not Chrome? The map isnt present in Chrome. Wondered i anyone else has had similar problem?
[21:17] <LeoBodnar> Not sure why, maybe ice accumulation
[21:18] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> It does seem to be something directly affecting the balloon by the continous effect.
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[21:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Only use FF on Windows,occasionally on Android but always works for me
[21:19] <Will_> Ok, thanks. No bother to use FF so will continue
[21:20] Nick change: KipK_away -> Kipkool
[21:20] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Is there any info regarding the helium and mositure content ? I can't think it can be significant but ...
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[21:21] <tweetBot> @daveake: Babbage flight 2 will be Monday approx 1 - 2pm. @Raspberry_Pi #UKHAS Also BUZZ will be flying midday as a backup for someone else's flight
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[21:24] <LeoBodnar> Do you mean how much moisture Helium might contain?
[21:24] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Or within the balloon before filling ?
[21:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> If it was ice forming on the balloon, how about a means of removing it - virbration of balloon skin or something ?
[21:25] <LeoBodnar> Hmm, would it not be considered just a part of balloon weight? It won't escape but might vapourise / freeze
[21:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes it would!
[21:26] <LeoBodnar> Extra pressure from water vapours will be probably small compared to He
[21:26] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Might change phase but not weight - just thinking aloud really!
[21:27] <LeoBodnar> I am doing the same so keep going :)
[21:27] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ice forming outside seems to make some sort of sense - constant affect, would take some time to melt etc.
[21:27] <LeoBodnar> I have looked at piezo buzzers but read somewhere that most attempts to remove ice mechanically were not successful
[21:28] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> makes sense the pressures needed to deform the skin would need to be very high
[21:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> some way of shaking the balloon would be better, offcentre weight on small motor attched to kneck maybe ?
[21:30] <LeoBodnar> It makes sense Geoff-G8DHE-M . Supercooled water has been observed at -30C temperatures. It turns into ice immediately at contact with a foreign surface
[21:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> could anything be applied to the skin at launch - light weight of course - to help prevent icing ...
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> I had at sprayed with silicon lubricant before launch but it did not seem to make any difference
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[21:31] <LeoBodnar> It helps with water but not ice
[21:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Muh super cooled so I suppose it would form ice on contact rather than water turning into ice as well.
[21:33] <LeoBodnar> Yes, fine uniform layer of ice dust, not beads that can be shaken off
[21:33] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> silly idea how about a couple of balanced wires sticking up around balloon that would tap the sides with any movment of the balloon to cause shaking ?
[21:33] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> would add quite a few grams I suspect :-(
[21:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> pendulum within balloon fixed to top that can bounce around the inside ?
[21:35] <LeoBodnar> As far as I remember - the suggestion for de-icing boots use on aircraft is to wait until a lot of ice have accumulated and then inflate them. They are ineffective in the early stages of ice forming.
[21:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes I think it can be flexible in thin layers
[21:36] <arko> They should spray it with hydrophobic paint :p
[21:36] <LeoBodnar> But aircraft ice formation might be different as a/c sweep through a lot of fresh air while balloon is suspended in it
[21:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Indeed also turbulence is probably lower at night as well
[21:37] <LeoBodnar> arko: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-10/ you wanted some pictures
[21:37] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_away
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[21:37] <arko> 404 yo
[21:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Is that mylar film around the electronics payload?
[21:38] <LeoBodnar> Yes
[21:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> could moisture/ice have accumulated inside or was it sealed ?
[21:39] <LeoBodnar> PCB is conformal-coated and heatshrink over
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[21:39] <arko> Leo, im getting a 404
[21:39] <LeoBodnar> *heatshrunk
[21:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> and the mylar tight to the heat shrink ?
[21:39] <LeoBodnar> No, loose
[21:39] <arko> Oh smart
[21:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> so moisture would dribble out the bottom then ..
[21:40] <LeoBodnar> http://www.leobodnar.com/balloons/B-10/index.html ?
[21:40] <arko> Damn leo, i was gonna try MLI
[21:40] <arko> Yeah still 404
[21:40] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Working here OK ?
[21:41] <LeoBodnar> No heat insulation for electronics, it just delays inevitable
[21:41] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> indeed better to expect it and design for it
[21:41] <LeoBodnar> Warms up quicker, I need it for LiPo to start charging
[21:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> could the pv cells have iced up as well ?
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[21:42] <LeoBodnar> Possibly but their surface area is small - few square inches.
[21:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> how much free lift ?
[21:43] <LeoBodnar> 1.8g
[21:43] <arko> Loads on my computer but not on my tablet
[21:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> quite a small amount of water than!
[21:43] <arko> Weird
[21:43] <LeoBodnar> Yes, very fragile balance
[21:43] <arko> Leo thats sexy
[21:44] <LeoBodnar> Thank you :)
[21:44] <arko> The balloon looks chipped
[21:44] <arko> Eat
[21:44] <arko> Neat
[21:44] <craag> The payload makes the balloon look huge!
[21:44] <arko> Lol
[21:44] <arko> AAA battery?
[21:45] <LeoBodnar> Notice how aluminium layer flaked off
[21:45] <arko> Icing?
[21:45] <LeoBodnar> Probably because of strain
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[21:45] <arko> Makes sense
[21:45] <LeoBodnar> It's on the inside
[21:47] <arko> LeoBodnar i love yo
[21:47] <arko> LoL
[21:47] <arko> Ok
[21:47] <arko> Dont leave tablet unattended
[21:47] <LeoBodnar> So if negative lift was about -1.5g then extra 1.6g free lift would have saved it this time.
[21:48] <arko> Sorry leo
[21:48] <LeoBodnar> Haha arko - forgiven!
[21:48] <arko> Haha
[21:48] <arko> Damn man, you keep making this more challenging
[21:49] <LeoBodnar> Need to check if it will be too close to bursting pressure under the sunlight
[21:49] <arko> Your like 5 steps ahead
[21:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> 2ml of water isn't that much however
[21:49] <LeoBodnar> I think am nearing the end
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> It's tiny compared to overall system weight of 56g. So if it is floating in the icing layer it will just hang there a bit longer?
[21:51] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> 40 drops of water ....
[21:51] <arko> LeoBodnar: http://i.imgur.com/qNhNxgI.jpg
[21:51] <arko> Im throwing it in the trash
[21:51] <arko> Need to make it smaller now
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> Why?
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> Go fly it! XD
[21:51] <arko> Haha
[21:51] <arko> Im jjoking
[21:53] <arko> I want to do gps on top and microcontroller on the bottom
[21:53] <arko> Mcu/rf all n one
[21:53] <arko> No power reg
[21:53] <arko> Just spec parts that fall in the operating voltages
[21:53] <LeoBodnar> For single AAA cell?
[21:53] <arko> Supercap and solar
[21:53] <arko> Or coin
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> haha bbc2
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> ardupilot
[21:54] <arko> AAA is too heavy
[21:54] <LeoBodnar> Ah, that's possible. Most 3.3v is not very efficient but with solar you wouldn't care much
[21:55] <arko> True
[21:55] <arko> The buck-boost takes up so much space though
[21:55] <arko> That inductor and all
[21:55] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: what do they do, I haven't had TV on for like 0.5 year.
[21:56] <LeoBodnar> And RF noise
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> james mays toy stories
[21:56] <arko> Oh yeah
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> making a long range balloon launched glider
[21:56] <LeoBodnar> Glider to France?
[21:56] <arko> The glider
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> yes
[21:56] <LeoBodnar> Has jcoxon been on it?
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[22:00] <Laurenceb_> hahaha the launch crate
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> lolling
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> discussing superpressure?
[22:04] <LeoBodnar> Yes! How do we keep it?
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[22:14] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[22:14] <Lunar_Lander> only way is a well-sealed envelope
[22:18] <LeoBodnar> http://ztresearch.wordpress.com/tag/aircraft-triggered-lightning-2/ We would have to descend below the freezing level and let the ice melt off before going back into the storm. Alternatively, hail would sometimes beat the ice off of the wings in a matter of seconds.
[22:18] <LeoBodnar> That's the spirit
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[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> you want to launch into a thundercell?
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[22:32] <LeoBodnar> Not deliberatly
[22:33] <LeoBodnar> You might as well throw a shoe in there
[22:34] <LeoBodnar> Foil balloon will be probably shred to bits
[22:36] <fsphil> not sure a latex would survive that either
[22:36] <fsphil> a wet nylon cord would provide a handy channel for lightning too
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[22:36] <WillTablet> Hi
[22:36] <WillTablet> I was looking at quadcopters on youtube
[22:36] <WillTablet> They look really cool
[22:37] <WillTablet> Too expensive though
[22:37] <chrisstubbs> wish I could justify getting one!
[22:38] <WillTablet> Parents would say no
[22:38] <WillTablet> eroomde are there any good explanations of topology?
[22:38] <WillTablet> I don't get the one in the book
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> hey chrisstubbs
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, IIRC one of the ONR Strato-Lab flights launched into a thundercell
[22:41] <Lunar_Lander> manned plastic balloon
[22:41] <chrisstubbs> Not bad thanks Lunar_Lander
[22:41] <Lunar_Lander> nice to hear
[22:42] <LeoBodnar> You were allowed to do almost anything in mid-20 century
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> yea :)
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[23:00] <Laurenceb_> http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_US/assets/downloads/h39915_hcfc123_pressure_enthalpy_eng.pdf
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> might do something...
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> horrible us units
[23:01] <LeoBodnar> Would it evaporate under the Sun radiation and cause extra superpressure buildup?
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[23:03] <zsentinel> Upu: you here?
[23:10] <mfa298> zsentinel: most of the uk are likely asleep (or should be)
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[23:12] <mfa298> you can always try asking a question, you might find someone else knows the answer
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[23:14] <zsentinel> mfa298: ok let me find what he said i had a question about
[23:15] <zsentinel> when i asked how the data was being received from the payloads in flight
[23:15] <zsentinel> he said
[23:15] <zsentinel> <Upu> zsentinel yeah ranges from "real" HAM rigs to Fun Cube Dongles to SDR's
[23:15] <zsentinel> i am confused about needing a "real" ham rig to connect to the fun cube
[23:15] <zsentinel> does he mean a ham anntenna?
[23:15] <zsentinel> as my understanding is the funcube is a "real" ham receiver
[23:15] <daveake> he means one of those
[23:16] <zsentinel> are you the dave with the bear jump?
[23:16] <daveake> So e.g. a Yaesu 817 which is a "real" ham radio transceiver
[23:16] <daveake> or an ICOM IC-R10 which is a receive-only scanner
[23:16] <daveake> yes
[23:16] <zsentinel> could i do it with this cheaper one i just ordered? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009MAKWC0/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
[23:16] <daveake> or a funcube dongle which is a very very good SDR
[23:17] <zsentinel> daveake: oh cool, your project has inspired me
[23:17] <daveake> No
[23:17] <mfa298> recievers tend to get broken into three categories, real HAM recievers (FT-790, FT-817, IC-7000, TS-2000 etc), The funcube dongle, and the Cheap RTL USB SDRs
[23:17] <daveake> That Baofeng is FM-only you need one that does SSB
[23:17] <zsentinel> i cant connect the audio out from my cheap handheld to my pc?
[23:17] <mfa298> for any of those you also need an antenna
[23:17] <zsentinel> oh it doesnt do ssb?
[23:17] <daveake> Nope
[23:17] <daveake> It's a good unit buit not for this
[23:17] <zsentinel> damn
[23:17] <daveake> good for money that is
[23:18] <zsentinel> well its my first ham radio, i am taking the test next week
[23:18] <daveake> ok cool
[23:18] <zsentinel> so i guess its ok for that
[23:18] <daveake> yeah good for chatting locally
[23:18] <zsentinel> but i will need to get something else then
[23:18] <daveake> Been meaning to get one for chatting between chase cars
[23:18] <zsentinel> as i want to do a launch with a pi
[23:18] <mfa298> if you're using RTTY in the UKHAS method then you need something that does SSB
[23:18] <daveake> Assuming you're doing the rtty thing we use, then you have to have an SSB receiver
[23:18] <daveake> snap
[23:19] <daveake> If you're in a country where APRS is allowed airborne then you could do that instead
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[23:19] <daveake> Where are you?
[23:19] <zsentinel> yeah usa
[23:19] <zsentinel> does funcube also do aprs?
[23:19] <daveake> OK well most over there use APRS
[23:19] <zsentinel> or aprs uses an existing system?
[23:20] <zsentinel> i looked into it briefly
[23:20] <mfa298> funcube is a good sdr reciever
[23:20] <daveake> Basically yes it exists
[23:20] <zsentinel> cool so i just use receiver network already out there
[23:20] <zsentinel> there are tons in my are (nyc area)
[23:20] <zsentinel> the map was full of them
[23:20] <daveake> Well I've never used it but I'd want my own receiver too
[23:20] <mfa298> and in general SDR recievers will do a lot of stuff (the demodulation is done it software)
[23:20] <zsentinel> yeah i want that too
[23:20] <zsentinel> so if i get an SDR, that is all i need?
[23:21] <zsentinel> well + antenna
[23:21] <zsentinel> or do i need aditional hardware?
[23:21] <zsentinel> additional
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[23:21] <mfa298> and SDR (Funcube or RRL will need a reasonable computer to run the software)
[23:21] <mfa298> my atom based netbook isn't up to the job
[23:22] <zsentinel> that isnt a problem
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[23:22] <mfa298> but any P4, i3/i5/i7 will do the job (I don't but AMD so don't know their processor range )
[23:22] <zsentinel> recievers tend to get broken into three categories, real HAM recievers (FT-790, FT-817, IC-7000, TS-2000 etc), The funcube dongle, and the Cheap RTL USB SDRs
[23:22] <zsentinel> so i can use any of the 3?
[23:23] <mfa298> the cheap RTL dongles are cheap for a reason - they're no where near as good as the others
[23:23] <zsentinel> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-USB-DVB-T-RTL-SDR-Realtek-RTL2832U-R820T-DVB-T-Tuner-Receiver-MCX-Input-/251240985308?pt=US_Video_Capture_TV_Tuner_Cards&hash=item3a7f2132dc
[23:23] <zsentinel> like that?
[23:23] <LeoBodnar> SOmetimes you need direction finding to locate the payload zsentinel
[23:23] <mfa298> but the funcube is similar in what it hears (sensitivity) as the real ham rigs (but in general cheaper than them)
[23:23] <zsentinel> if the gps fails?
[23:24] <LeoBodnar> "Last mile" problem
[23:24] <zsentinel> ahh
[23:24] <LeoBodnar> It can land upside down
[23:24] <zsentinel> i have searched for crashed rc planes
[23:24] <zsentinel> i know how this can be lol
[23:24] <zsentinel> and that is in a MUCH smaller area
[23:24] <zsentinel> the funcube can do direction finding?
[23:24] <zsentinel> or i need a real ham rig for that?
[23:25] <LeoBodnar> So Yagi + something portable that can give you signal level is almost a must
[23:25] <mfa298> that's an example of the cheap rtl sdr dongle. They're fine for bench testing and people have used them to chase their payloads but I'd prefer something a bit more sensitive
[23:25] <daveake> I know it's possible, but I've never had a tracker land and lose GPS position
[23:25] <daveake> A couple have rebooted (spring battery holders) but regained lock
[23:26] <zsentinel> maybe i will get that for a low altitude test
[23:26] <mfa298> in theory and radio reciever can be used for direction finding, a directional aerial (like a yagi) is what helps you find the direction
[23:26] <daveake> Strange thing yesterday - http://postimg.org/image/ivl0uelqp/
[23:26] <zsentinel> it says it doesnt work in the usa but i think that just means for the tv
[23:26] <daveake> Same circular thing in another image about the same time
[23:26] <mfa298> but there's the question of do you want to lug something small like the FT817 around various fields, or a laptop with various cables on it.
[23:26] <daveake> Wonder if that was a met balloon
[23:26] <LeoBodnar> MIne did today daveake but I have foil balloons that are like a massive RF reflector
[23:26] <daveake> ah yes
[23:27] <zsentinel> daveake: you going to launch monday?
[23:27] <daveake> today. yes.
[23:27] <LeoBodnar> IC-R20
[23:27] <zsentinel> awesome
[23:27] <zsentinel> i cant wait to see it
[23:28] <zsentinel> how long will the craft drift after the bear drops?
[23:28] <daveake> Same deal as Saturday but moar powwwer
[23:28] <zsentinel> what happened saturday?
[23:28] <daveake> Not long. Drop is at 39km burst last time 41km
[23:28] <zsentinel> wind i heard?
[23:28] <mfa298> daveake: maybe it's those aliens from your pi floater come back to visit.
[23:28] <daveake> hah
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[23:29] <zsentinel> your using funcube to receive in real time daveake ?
[23:29] <daveake> I and some others do
[23:29] <daveake> It's a very nice device
[23:29] <zsentinel> so you can get video/picturees the entire way up?
[23:29] <daveake> Especially the new Pro+ model
[23:30] <daveake> Pretty much the entire flight
[23:30] <zsentinel> i think i would need to drive to farm country to let mine off
[23:30] <zsentinel> in this area its so likely to fall on someones roof
[23:30] <zsentinel> or on a road or highway
[23:30] <zsentinel> but then again its going to end up in a tree
[23:30] <zsentinel> so i am kind of perplexed how you end up recovering these thingsd
[23:31] <daveake> Well mostly they land in a field
[23:31] <zsentinel> that's some extreme luck
[23:31] <zsentinel> in this area there aren't many fields heh
[23:31] <zsentinel> there are roofs, roads, trees
[23:31] <tweetBot> @daveake: Is that a met office balloon nearby? http://t.co/7vo2F3ZUCc #UKHAS #RaspberryPi
[23:31] <zsentinel> but there is farm country about an hour from here
[23:32] <mfa298> Ive often used the pro+ for tracking balloons
[23:32] <daveake> Er not that much luck you use predictions that land away from towns and cities
[23:32] <daveake> Aim for farms
[23:32] <zsentinel> ahh
[23:32] <daveake> But yes there's a lot of luck in it
[23:33] <daveake> Some parts of the UK are almost entirely farmland so those are good
[23:33] <zsentinel> yeah i think uk is much better place than my area
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[23:33] <zsentinel> for launches that is :p
[23:33] <WillTablet> Hi
[23:33] <zsentinel> i need to find a usa dealer for the funcube
[23:35] <zsentinel> surprisingly its not on amazon
[23:35] <tweetBot> @daveake: Babbage takes a blurry self-portrait, looking into the glossy surface of the main capsule! http://t.co/BJcKuH7ShP #UKHAS #RaspberryPi
[23:36] <mfa298> I think there are a couple of USA folks on here have bought the funcube. Probably direct from the funcube site
[23:36] <zsentinel> yeah that is my only option it seems
[23:36] <zsentinel> damn conversion rates kill me
[23:37] <WillTablet> Really pleased I'm getting my granddad into electronics.
[23:37] <WillTablet> Well.
[23:37] <WillTablet> I say that.
[23:37] <WillTablet> He worked in it for a few decades, is retired now.
[23:38] <WillTablet> So all the MOFSET stuff and relays and arduino are quite new.
[23:39] <mfa298> unless he retired >30 years ago he should have come accross relays and mosfets, they're not exactly new
[23:39] <WillTablet> Yeah
[23:39] <WillTablet> Well, almost >30
[23:39] <mfa298> even microcontrollers have been around for 15+ years
[23:40] <LeoBodnar> Which camera did you use to take aliens pictures daveake ? Is it Raspberry Pi camera?
[23:40] <daveake> yep
[23:40] <WillTablet> Soldering's quite fun
[23:40] <LeoBodnar> NOt bad for the price
[23:40] <WillTablet> He has parkinson's
[23:40] <WillTablet> Makes it quite difficult to solder but we manage.
[23:41] <daveake> They're going to do a version without the IR filter
[23:41] <WillTablet> mfa298 he did work on the harrier jump jet systems
[23:41] <WillTablet> With smith's industries
[23:41] <daveake> I'll fly one soon - they're sending one to me
[23:42] <WillTablet> That said, there's no reference to smith's being involved on the intertubes
[23:43] <daveake> ok nn need sleep before next round of launches :p
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[23:45] <WillTablet> So it's really quite cool stuff
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[23:46] <WillTablet> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11867 I'm still tempted by this, for our greenhouse temperature control.
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[23:47] <WillTablet> Ordered a mosfet no clue what to do with it though
[23:48] <mfa298> that's probably a bad idea
[23:48] <WillTablet> Which one ?
[23:48] <WillTablet> :-)
[23:48] <mfa298> there's a whole range of mosfets (and transistors in general) so if you dont know what you're doing with it you've probably got the wrong one
[23:50] <WillTablet> RFP30N06LE
[23:51] <WillTablet> I got a kit from cool components
[23:51] <WillTablet> 3 quid though
[23:51] <WillTablet> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10213
[23:52] <WillTablet> Will probably use for switching a small 12v load
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[23:57] <mfa298> and is it suitable for that task ?
[23:57] <mfa298> what voltage does it need to switch fully on
[23:58] <mfa298> how much heat does it need to disipate
[23:58] <mfa298> so many other questions you should probably ask to see if it's suitable
[23:58] <mfa298> and as per normal I really should be asleep by now
[23:59] <WillTablet> Well it's around 4 amps so might need a heat sink
[23:59] <WillTablet> Seems it
[00:00] --- Mon Aug 26 2013