highaltitude.log.20130819

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[02:22] <Lambeta> KT5TK, hey a question for you regarding pecan pico 4, do you need the VCXO to use the SI4464?
[02:23] <Lambeta> Or can you send data directly to the SI4464 over SPI?
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[03:18] <arko> Lambeta: the 4464 has an internal 32kHz rc oscillator
[03:19] <arko> but if you plan to transmit that data you are going to need that >26Mhz crystal input
[03:19] <arko> i recommend a TCXO, i found fsk to be a bit wobbly without one
[03:19] <arko> err, rather with a VCXO
[03:20] <Lambeta> arko, I'm using this, http://www.ecsxtal.com/store/pdf/ECX-2236.pdf
[03:29] <arko> ah
[03:35] <wrea> Got to meet with Paul Verhage of nearsys yesterday
[03:43] <Lambeta> arko, I was just wondering due to lack of proper documentation
[03:43] <Lambeta> if I can actually transmit data over SPI
[03:43] <Lambeta> instead of modulating a VCO with a pin
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[04:03] <KT5TK> Lambeta: Depends on what modulation you want to use. For AFSK there is probably not a clean way to send the data directly to the Si4464 chip. That's why I use an external VCXO.
[04:04] <KT5TK> If you want to do FSK or similar then you can use a GPIO pin
[04:05] <KT5TK> Through SPI you can only use the FIFO buffer for the built in modulation schemes.
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[05:00] <Lambeta> KT5TK, perfect, all i need is FSK
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[05:39] <arko> ohhh
[05:39] <arko> that FIFO buffer is tiny
[05:40] <arko> i thought he meant can you talk to the chip without the vcxo
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[05:44] <wrea> Any advantages to using the 4464 for aprs as opposed to the hx1?
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[05:46] <arko> its small
[05:47] <arko> more features and control
[05:51] <Upu> HX1 is quite a simple solution and runs at 300mW
[05:52] <Upu> in theory the SI can run at 1.8V too
[05:52] <Upu> but your crystal options become limited
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[07:27] <jcoxon> morning all
[07:31] <arko> mornin
[07:32] <jcoxon> arko, all set to come and visit us?
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[07:36] <arko> :) yes
[07:36] <arko> trying to figure out what to do the free days i have
[07:36] <arko> perhaps Wales
[07:36] <arko> who knows!
[07:36] <arko> i'm taking suggestions
[07:36] <arko> im stoked regardless :)
[07:37] <jcoxon> arko, scotland is always good
[07:37] <jcoxon> everyone loves edinburgh
[07:37] <arko> lol
[07:38] <arko> eroomde was saying it's far
[07:38] <arko> i would need to take at least 2 days
[07:38] <arko> i hope to swing by a hab launch maybe
[07:38] <arko> not sure who would be launching
[07:38] <arko> but it would be cool
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[07:48] <Babs> arko - you still up?
[07:48] <arko> yep
[07:48] <arko> whats up
[07:49] <Babs> coolio - you NEVER sleep
[07:49] <arko> eh
[07:49] <Babs> can i ask a quick question about serial buffering
[07:49] <arko> i sleep at 2am and wake up at 8am
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[07:49] <arko> yep
[07:49] <Babs> my girlfriend - I mean wife :-( - cannot figure how i function on 6 hours sleep
[07:49] <Babs> anyways
[07:50] <arko> hah, im terrified of jet lag now, my friend got back and said he had a terrible time in london
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[07:50] <arko> i doubt it will be like that for me though
[07:50] <Babs> everyone has a terrible time in london. its not the jet lag.
[07:50] <arko> haha
[07:50] <Babs> its the cost of everything, the polllution, everyone is rude etc.
[07:50] <Babs> anyways (2)
[07:50] <arko> ah good to know
[07:51] <arko> serial buffering, right
[07:51] <Babs> if i have a really simple program (e.g. a counter writing to serial port)
[07:51] <Babs> and a low serial baud rate e.g. 9600
[07:51] <Babs> does it ever happen that the serial print function cannot keep up with the calculation?
[07:51] <Babs> and just buffers up?
[07:52] <Babs> i mean, if the program is long enough and complex enough, and the baud rate is very low, i imagine you could construct a program that buffers up
[07:52] <Babs> but in practical terms, does it really ever happen?
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[07:52] <Babs> i'd like to timestamp two discrete variables, then send across to a second arduino
[07:53] <arko> hmm
[07:53] <arko> depends how long the "calcuation" takes right?
[07:53] <Babs> yes, thats the tricky one
[07:53] <arko> if its quick and gets done very quickly
[07:53] <arko> then it hands it off to the serial buffer
[07:53] <arko> then it becomes a question of.. how are you actually buffering and how large is it?
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[07:54] <arko> if you are feeding it faster than it can send, then you can only get away with it for however long you have until the buffer is full
[07:54] <Babs> basically, I have a variable that updates (through a fairly complex algorithm), and want to calculate a rate of change for the variable, then send both items off to a second processor
[07:54] <Babs> which i can do pretty easily by timestamping them
[07:54] <arko> your best best is to make it such that the calculation function waits if the serial buffer is full and stops calculating
[07:55] <arko> what's your serial interface like?
[07:55] <arko> circular buffer?
[07:55] <Babs> hmmm. hardware UART from an arduino.
[07:55] <arko> oh
[07:55] <Babs> its just printing the values across. nothing fancy.
[07:56] <arko> do you keep calling "Serial.Print(calculation_result);"?
[07:56] <Babs> ? its just a line in the program that looks like that ^ - ie i don't understand the question
[07:56] <Babs> !
[07:57] <daveake> Babs It's like using a GPS receiver ... if you ask a ublox to transmit at 10Hz, and you have all the sentence types enabled, it's not going to manage it. So it'll just send as fast as it can. It won't buffer the data up - it'll change the rate it tries to send it. So it'll reduce that 10Hz down to whatever works
[07:57] <arko> do you do your calculation then do Serila.Print?
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[07:57] <Babs> arko - yes exactly.
[07:57] <Babs> daveake - is that the ublox not keeping up or the atmega not keeping up in your example?
[07:57] <daveake> So either up the baud rate or reduce your update rate, so you have enough bandwidth
[07:57] <daveake> ublox
[07:58] <daveake> The baud rate is the limiting factor
[07:58] <arko> im not exactly sure how the arduino buffers data actually
[07:58] <daveake> 64 bytes IIRC arko
[07:58] <arko> oh
[07:58] <arko> that will get filled up fast
[07:58] <Babs> how do i test whether it is keeping up daveake?
[07:58] <daveake> not sure
[07:58] <arko> delay that function
[07:58] <arko> isn't there a function in arduino that waits for the serial buffer?
[07:58] <arko> i know in other microcontrollers i've delt with you can check a serial buffer full flag
[07:59] <arko> see if it's full and just have the function wait till it's ready
[07:59] <daveake> There's probably a function for getting the buffer status. Not sure.
[07:59] <arko> Serial.flush(); right?
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[07:59] <Babs> serial.flush clears the buffer i think
[07:59] <arko> waits for the transmition of serial data going out to be complete
[07:59] <arko> http://arduino.cc/en/Serial/Flush
[08:00] <arko> i would just check the registers but it requires some reading of the datasheet :P
[08:00] <Babs> hah - arko, we were both right, you were just more up to date than me!
[08:00] <arko> :P
[08:00] <arko> i just googled it to be honest
[08:01] <arko> i take the hard route usually and look up the how the architure is setup
[08:01] <arko> then look for the right register to check
[08:01] <arko> meh
[08:01] <Babs> i guess the only thing is that serial.print is not a blocking command, so using the flush program will slow down the underlying program
[08:01] <arko> correct
[08:01] <daveake> Though serial.pritn will block if the buffer is full
[08:01] <arko> in these cases i usually setup interrupts on these things
[08:02] <daveake> Yeah Arduino is going to hinder not help here
[08:02] <Babs> but a good test is if i can find a function that tests for a full buffer, and then run the program for a day say and it doesn't flag it, then i know the baud rate is high enough
[08:02] <arko> so the code sends it out when the serial buffer is ready and the current code its processing isn't tiem dependent (tricky)
[08:02] <arko> yeah daveake has it right
[08:02] <Babs> its not elegant but it would work (i guess)
[08:02] <arko> arduino is toally hindering
[08:02] <arko> my not so secret hate for arduino continutes...
[08:03] <daveake> Well if you build the data on a regular basis, and the amount of data is the same or has a defined limit, you can just calculate it
[08:03] <Babs> "Though serial.pritn will block if the buffer is full" - i think this does the job then daveake
[08:03] <Babs> because by definition, the variable will not be timestamped until the program gets around to calculating it again
[08:04] <Babs> if i make the buffer small
[08:04] <daveake> OK then that works
[08:04] <Babs> i presume i can define its size somewhere
[08:04] <arko> that makes sense, to optimize and have maximum data speed, changing the baud rate so that it gives the calculation enough time is best
[08:04] <daveake> So yes, if your code is quicker than the serial link, it'll just go as fast as the serial link limits it to
[08:05] <daveake> AFAIK the Arduino Tx buffer size is fixed
[08:05] <Babs> i'm only sending 4 int variables with check digits, and the program calculations are large and lengthy, so i think in practical terms it won't be a problem. i was just noodling it in my brain whilst walking in today.
[08:06] <arko> oh that should go quick
[08:06] <arko> you really need it to be an int?
[08:06] <Babs> http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/arduino-serial-buffer-size
[08:06] <Babs> the buffer is only 64 bytes in size.
[08:06] <Babs> (standard anyway)
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[08:07] <Babs> so basically i should see the thing messing up pretty quickly if it is operating too quickly
[08:08] <Babs> arko - three variables from 0 to 360 in value, and then the 4th a floating point.
[08:08] <arko> if you have a way of telling the difference between serial transmissions yeah
[08:08] <arko> yikes
[08:08] <arko> you really need a float?
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[08:09] <arko> 0 to 360 can just be two bytes
[08:09] <arko> err
[08:09] <arko> int is a lot more data than is necessary
[08:10] <Babs> what should i define it to be?
[08:10] <arko> you dont need to get that fancy and to bit operations if the calculation is slow enough though
[08:10] <arko> honestly
[08:10] <arko> just test it
[08:10] <Babs> you are right
[08:10] <arko> set a timer to see how long the calcuation takes
[08:10] <arko> if it takes long enough that at the higher speeds its already done
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[08:10] <arko> no point it worrying since the bottle neck is the calculation
[08:11] <Babs> yes, i guess i can do that. time the calculation, work out how many bits need to be send, divide the bits into the baud rate and check that that number is lower than the time to do the calculation?
[08:11] <daveake> If not, start it from a timer or by setting targets using millis(), so you're controlling the rate
[08:11] <arko> ^
[08:12] <arko> smart
[08:12] <daveake> This is how a GPS would be doing it
[08:12] <arko> Babs: yeah
[08:12] <Babs> daveake - ie lets say you want the calc to take a second, you time how long it takes (say time = t) and then delay for (1 second - t) for each cycle in the program?
[08:13] Nick change: MichaelC|Sleep -> MichaelC|Away
[08:14] <daveake> Well you can test the current time with start_time=millis(), then do the calc/send, then wait till millis()>=(start_time+1000) or something
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[08:19] <arko> sorry if im not making too much sense btw, im pretty burned out from a long day
[08:19] <arko> im gonna sleep now
[08:24] <fsphil> sleep is good
[08:24] <fsphil> unless you're flying a plane
[08:24] <arko> lol
[08:25] <arko> thats why they have auto pilot right?
[08:25] <fsphil> I hear those US<>UK flights are very long and tiring for pilots :)
[08:25] <fsphil> I was watching a video of them landing the A380
[08:26] <fsphil> they don't fly it,, they just adjust knobs
[08:26] <fsphil> one for direction, one for altitude
[08:26] <fsphil> it's mad
[08:26] <arko> ...
[08:26] <arko> yeah
[08:26] <arko> instrument landings are fun
[08:26] <fsphil> ATC tells them the heading, they just spin a knob
[08:26] <arko> i dont want to think about this
[08:26] <fsphil> they take over for landing
[08:27] <Willdude123> Morning people.
[08:27] <arko> knowing more about how planes land isn't helping my fear of flying
[08:27] <fsphil> ah
[08:27] <arko> i plan to sleep while flying over the ocean to you guys :)
[08:27] <Willdude123> arko
[08:27] <fsphil> hope you manage it
[08:27] <daveake> Well, landing is guaranteed
[08:27] <arko> sup Willdude123
[08:27] <fsphil> haha
[08:27] <arko> daveake: :) yes
[08:27] <daveake> Though it's not always called "landing" :P
[08:27] <Willdude123> Good luck.
[08:27] <fsphil> bring a pillow
[08:27] <arko> not exactly always "soft"
[08:28] <arko> Willdude123: haha tell that to the pilot
[08:28] <daveake> Remember your towel
[08:28] <fsphil> plane seats are not great for sleeping on
[08:28] <arko> :)
[08:28] <fsphil> and a towel
[08:28] <mfa298_> just hope itb doesn't land in a tree
[08:28] <fsphil> which is also a pillow
[08:28] <daveake> too slow
[08:28] <arko> daveake: oh yeah duh i almost forgot
[08:28] <Willdude123> arko there's a comforting clip from a british comedy series called Come Fly With Me.
[08:28] <fsphil> the last one I was on they give out towels
[08:28] <daveake> that was a while ago
[08:28] <arko> Willdude123: i was planning on watching Air Force One on the plane ride
[08:29] <fsphil> well blankets, which is a kind of towel
[08:29] <Willdude123> Yeah it was on around a year ago.
[08:29] <arko> haha
[08:29] <arko> i will just booze up and sleep
[08:29] <arko> wake up hungover
[08:29] <arko> seems logical
[08:29] <fsphil> you'll blend in better
[08:29] <daveake> Last long haul I was on, they showed the movie "Safety Is Not Guaranteed"
[08:29] <fsphil> with the pilots
[08:29] <arko> take the wrong tube to somewhere else int he uk
[08:29] <arko> haha
[08:29] <Babs> sorry - i had to step away to take a call
[08:30] <fsphil> the tube won't take you too many places in the UK
[08:30] <arko> Willdude123: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UGt1ncEKgA
[08:30] <arko> its that dude from Little Britain!
[08:30] <Babs> arko, not for now as it is late but definitely at the conference let me tell you the story about the Pan-Am flight coming in to land with an Alitalia plane sitting on the runway. its quality.
[08:30] <arko> haha
[08:31] <Babs> and thanks arko and daveake for the tips and discussion.
[08:31] <Willdude123> arko sorry can't find it. Probably best you don't watch it.
[08:31] <fsphil> Pan-Am .. that was a while ago :)
[08:31] <daveake> np Babs
[08:31] <arko> babs: i shall enjoy that story over a pint
[08:31] <arko> np
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[08:31] <arko> Willdude123: indeed
[08:31] <Willdude123> arko do you know how many planes have come down over the Atlantic.
[08:31] <Willdude123> ?
[08:31] <arko> do i want to know?
[08:31] <arko> will i be the first?
[08:32] <arko> find out on sept 4 - 5!
[08:32] <fsphil> very few in modern times
[08:32] <arko> you guys have clouds and rain from what i've heard
[08:32] <arko> water from the sky and stuff
[08:32] <daveake> always
[08:32] <number10> not today here
[08:32] <fsphil> yea sun's out here too
[08:32] <arko> new concept to me, i hope the planes can handle that
[08:32] <Willdude123> There were 749 aviation related deaths in 2009
[08:32] <mfa298_> mostly blue skies here
[08:32] <number10> they bouce around a bit arko
[08:32] <number10> bounce
[08:33] <fsphil> yea the clouds make for nice turbulance
[08:33] <Willdude123> 583 in 2008
[08:33] <arko> Willdude123: heh, i think it maybe best to not think about it
[08:33] <daveake> they're fine. No need to panic unless the plane inverts.
[08:33] <fsphil> thunder storms especially
[08:33] <number10> when are you flying
[08:33] <Willdude123> Exactly daveake
[08:33] <arko> daveake: spin mode!
[08:33] <arko> my flight instructor did that to me
[08:33] <Babs> daveake - its British Airways, not Top Gun ;-)
[08:33] <arko> i still hate him for that
[08:33] <Babs> I was....inverted
[08:33] <arko> "hey watch this"
[08:33] <fsphil> haha
[08:33] <arko> we dive in a spin
[08:33] <arko> i piss myself
[08:34] <arko> that was great
[08:34] <Babs> that would fly around the cabin too in a spin arko
[08:34] <Willdude123> When you look at it as a percentage of the number of people flying, the number is really tiny.
[08:34] <fsphil> the one flight lesson I had the pilot tilted the plane sideways. that was quite enough for me :)
[08:34] <Babs> it must have gone everywhere
[08:34] <arko> Willdude123: yeah totally, it's really safe actually
[08:34] <arko> it's an irrational fear
[08:34] <Babs> my first flying lesson was at Bournemouth Airport
[08:34] <Willdude123> arko who you flying with?
[08:34] <arko> virgin
[08:34] <daveake> I jumped out of my 3rd flight
[08:34] <Babs> i took off sandwiched between 2 easyjet flights
[08:34] <arko> GALATIC
[08:34] <arko> IM GOING TO SPACE
[08:34] <fsphil> daveake: ryan air?
[08:34] <arko> THEN THE UK
[08:35] <Willdude123> Hah they were useless
[08:35] <daveake> lol
[08:35] <arko> SUP NOW
[08:35] <Willdude123> Better than Thomsonm
[08:35] <Babs> i was like "isn't there a B-runway, all the planes on this runway seem bigger than ours"
[08:35] <arko> Babs lol
[08:35] <arko> hahaha
[08:35] <Willdude123> arko be prepared for very strong northern accents.
[08:35] <Babs> he's like, "no, and lets take off otherwise they will blow us away if they turn it up at the wrong time"
[08:36] <Babs> it didn't inspire confidence
[08:36] <arko> Willdude123: i've been watching british comedies for years now
[08:36] <arko> im ready
[08:36] <arko> plus i got Euro Truck Simulator
[08:36] <arko> got on the "wrong" side of the road 8 times
[08:36] <arko> decided not to drive in the uk after that
[08:36] <daveake> British comedies? You're ready for our railyway "system" then
[08:36] <arko> hahaha
[08:36] <fsphil> okie I'll drive
[08:36] <Willdude123> First of all I'd like to apologies on behalf of our whole country for the crappy in flight meals.
[08:36] <arko> babs haha
[08:36] <arko> thats awesome
[08:37] <daveake> arko when's your trip?
[08:37] <arko> Willdude123: i've heard virgin offers good food
[08:37] <arko> daveake: i leave sept 4
[08:37] <arko> land sept 5
[08:37] <arko> i have two weeks in the uk
[08:37] <Babs> I prepared for my drive across the US from East to West with this http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Desert_Bus
[08:37] <Willdude123> It'd the best-
[08:37] <Babs> outside of getting across Chicago it pretty much served its purpose
[08:37] <arko> nothing planned other than ukhas and some visitng around oxford and cambridge
[08:37] <Willdude123> Still not good.
[08:38] <daveake> Maybe time for me to scare you in my little car then :p
[08:38] <Willdude123> Not going to London?
[08:38] <arko> daveake: im down
[08:38] <arko> you have a reliant robin?
[08:38] <fsphil> worse
[08:38] <arko> lets go skidding around
[08:38] <daveake> No this stays the right way up
[08:38] <arko> haha
[08:38] <arko> a mini?
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[08:38] <arko> lotus?
[08:38] <daveake> yup
[08:38] <arko> Willdude123: yes
[08:38] <Babs> arko - bear in mind that unlike the place in LA, not every pub in the UK has a bucking bronco installed
[08:38] <arko> the first 3 days i will be in london
[08:38] <Babs> which one daveake?
[08:39] <daveake> 110 with 100 yards to go into a 60 corner
[08:39] <arko> Babs lol
[08:39] <daveake> On what you think is the wrong side of the road
[08:39] <arko> oh man
[08:39] <daveake> I can see how this may affect you :p
[08:39] <fsphil> make sure to sit on a towel
[08:39] <arko> im thinking about how weird is going to be sitting on the left sides not being able to do anything
[08:39] <arko> my guess is the ride back with eroomde is going to make me shit myself
[08:39] <arko> "DUDE NO, WRONG SIDE"
[08:39] <number10> you will also experience roundabouts arko - a bit of an alien concept to LAers
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[08:40] <arko> number10: i've experience a few on euro truck simulator
[08:40] <arko> im ready
[08:40] <Babs> Mk1 or Mk 2 daveake?
[08:40] <daveake> Mk1
[08:40] <arko> fsphil: smart
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[08:40] <Babs> I had a beautiful black Mk 1 BITD
[08:40] <arko> oh snap
[08:40] <daveake> I've driven a Mk2 with the Honda 240 engine. That was interesting
[08:40] <arko> daveake: one of these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Golf_Mk1
[08:40] <Babs> then I got a nice 111S Mk2
[08:41] <Babs> ^ yes like that
[08:41] <arko> death trap yay! \o/
[08:41] <arko> i should probably write my will
[08:41] <Babs> then I got a wife and 2 kittens, and now I have no Lotus :-(
[08:41] <fsphil> this is like that bit on top gear where people list the cars they had. I'd be the guy who'd have to say "er.. clio"
[08:41] <arko> Babs i got to see my friends Elan the other day
[08:41] <arko> man i love lotus
[08:41] <arko> dream car
[08:41] <daveake> http://users.bookatrack.com/-PC?daveake&1301&200&9016&.jpg
[08:41] <arko> you brits got that damn car right
[08:42] <number10> arko: when crossing the road just make sure you look twice as many times as you usually would - then you should be ok
[08:42] <Babs> BABSFACT - in my work experience at secondary school i designed part of the suspension rod for a cleo fsphil
[08:42] <Babs> edit: part of that bad ride you hate is down to me
[08:42] <arko> number10: i've been warned about that :)
[08:42] <arko> my friend that just got back from london said he saw two people get hit
[08:42] <arko> and that people dont stop for pedestrians in london
[08:42] <fsphil> Babs: ah, that bit broke on mine :)
[08:42] <arko> london is a silly place anyway
[08:42] <daveake> lol
[08:42] <arko> i shall visit oxford and cambridge
[08:42] <arko> and wales
[08:43] <fsphil> driving in london is a brown towel moment
[08:43] <Babs> and hull
[08:43] <arko> and drink by rivers
[08:43] <number10> much better - but watch out for cycles there arko
[08:43] <arko> fsphil: lol
[08:43] <fsphil> I still don't know how the taxi driver didn't hit the cyclists last time
[08:43] Action: Joel_re wonders if there are any launches in Jan/Feb in Cambridge
[08:43] <fsphil> they where cycling out in front of moving cars
[08:43] <Babs> lets not say anything bad about London cyclists. I pick up the cakes for the conference this Friday and am taking notes.
[08:44] <Joel_re> I'll be in Cambridge in Jan or Feb would like to visit a launch
[08:44] <fsphil> Babs: sadly there are some bad ones
[08:44] <daveake> there are no bad cakes
[08:44] <Babs> cakes or cyclists?
[08:44] <Babs> daveake - arf
[08:44] <fsphil> both
[08:44] <fsphil> carrot cake
[08:44] <Babs> i have only come off once in 18,000 miles in London
[08:44] <fsphil> there's no excuse for that
[08:45] <Willdude123> In Turkey most of the taxis and buses just slowed down when they picked someone up. None of them stopped.
[08:45] <Babs> we don't do carrot, but i am picking up a couple of these http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2305938/McVities-launches-The-Big-One-Jaffa-Cake-decades-beating-taxman-landmark-VAT-battle.html
[08:45] <arko> i dont think i should go to turkey
[08:45] <arko> they killed like 6 million of my people
[08:45] <arko> err
[08:45] <arko> 1.5 million
[08:45] <arko> oops
[08:45] Action: arko blames his sleepy brain
[08:46] <Willdude123> Lol
[08:46] <Willdude123> when!?
[08:46] <arko> turkey aint to nice to armenians
[08:46] <arko> uh
[08:46] <arko> 1915
[08:46] <Babs> once you're in the millions in terms of genocide, it doesn't really matter how accurate you are arko. its all bad.
[08:46] <arko> armenian genocide
[08:46] Nick change: KipK_aw -> Kipkool
[08:46] <arko> Babs: yep
[08:46] <Willdude123> Ah OK do you live in armenia?
[08:46] <arko> Willdude123: it kinda sucked from what my relatives tell me ;)
[08:46] <arko> nah im in the united states
[08:46] <Babs> ok, work time! thanks guys for the coding tips
[08:46] <arko> but many of my family members are from armenia
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[08:47] <Willdude123> Maybe it was a peaceful act of war,
[08:47] <fsphil> Babs: I never ever thought I'd see something good on the Daily Mail website
[08:47] <fsphil> oops, too late
[08:47] <arko> Willdude123: sure pal
[08:47] <Willdude123> :-)
[08:47] <arko> :P
[08:47] <Willdude123> arko http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1242551/Number-people-killed-airline-crashes-soars.html
[08:47] <fsphil> "This is the war office, you can't fight in here!"
[08:47] <arko> btw, i hope this makes you guys smile as much as it did for me http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=K2jFs2StW6o
[08:48] <arko> fsphil: one of the few movies i own haha
[08:48] <arko> thanks Willdude123!
[08:48] <arko> i'll never sleep again!
[08:48] <Willdude123> arko http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_accidents_and_incidents
[08:48] <Willdude123> arko do you know the main topic of the song American Pie
[08:48] <Willdude123> ?
[08:49] <arko> mmm
[08:49] <arko> no
[08:49] <arko> never saw it
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[08:49] <Willdude123> By Don Mclean.
[08:49] <Willdude123> It refers to 'the day the music died.
[08:49] <arko> ahhh
[08:50] <arko> yes i've heard that
[08:50] <Willdude123> That was a fatal aircraft incident.
[08:50] <arko> sorry i read movie for some reason
[08:50] <Willdude123> Killed buddy holly.
[08:50] <fsphil> I saw a play about that in london. very boring
[08:50] <Willdude123> On that note, I'm off to London.
[08:50] <arko> well thats due to drinking on the plane no?
[08:50] <steve_at_work> what do people generally use for designing PCB's (or at least the tracks on them)
[08:50] <Willdude123> Nope
[08:50] <arko> blah
[08:50] <arko> enjoy
[08:50] <fsphil> steve_at_work: eagle is the most common one
[08:50] <arko> im off to sleep
[08:51] <arko> good night
[08:51] <fsphil> nite!
[08:51] <Willdude123> Have fun
[08:51] <steve_at_work> fsphil: cheers, i suppose they then make them thereselves or is there a cheap(ish) service out there
[08:52] <fsphil> steve_at_work: there are a few cheap ones based in china, hackvana or another one I can't remember the name of
[08:52] <zyp> seeed and itead would be the other two
[08:52] <steve_at_work> fsphil: for one off's
[08:53] <fsphil> seeed, that's the one
[08:53] <fsphil> none will be that cheap for one-offs, you'd probably get 10 boards
[08:53] <fsphil> I think someone said pcb-pool where a bit cheaper for small batches
[08:53] <fsphil> but I've not tried
[08:53] <zyp> for small boards, both seeed and itead would be $10 for 10
[08:54] <zyp> that's pretty cheap even if you only need one
[08:54] <steve_at_work> thats good
[08:54] <fsphil> yea better just to get 10
[08:54] <fsphil> be annoying if you got one and it was faulty
[08:54] <mattbrejza> i should make an art piece out of my spare PCBs
[08:55] <mattbrejza> round the edges -> coasters etc
[08:55] <steve_at_work> boss is lotering - catch you all later
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[08:56] <zyp> oshpark will give you three, but possibly at the same price as 10 from china
[08:56] <zyp> the quality is a bit higher though
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[09:15] <ibanezmatt13> Morning
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[09:18] <daveake> Here's a PCB I made earlier. About 32 years earlier. How little I knew then what I'd be flying this weekend ... http://i.imgur.com/QAPWzB4.jpg?1
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[09:19] <Randomskk> haha perfect daveake
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[09:21] <chrisstubbsW> morning ibanezmatt13
[09:21] <ibanezmatt13> Morning chrisstubbsW
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[09:22] <ibanezmatt13> On this page here: http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/elsworth/ How do I use it?
[09:22] <ibanezmatt13> So when there's a time on those dots, is that a launch time or something?
[09:23] <daveake> over over point to see launch time, click to see path, right-click to see full information. Click on a path to remove it.
[09:23] <daveake> ^^ copied from the page itself :p
[09:23] <ibanezmatt13> :P
[09:23] <ibanezmatt13> Thanks
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[09:23] <ibanezmatt13> There's no way I'm doing further maths daveake :D
[09:23] <daveake> The predictions have been all over the place the last day or so.
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[09:24] <daveake> They'll get more consistent during the week. Well they should do.
[09:25] <ibanezmatt13> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=5ce0fa5955ea98750b346d38d62d517bf2eaf59f
[09:25] <ibanezmatt13> looks ok, but as you say it will change
[09:26] <number10> interestingly it changes to a westward flight for the next day ibanezmatt13
[09:26] <ibanezmatt13> oh right
[09:26] <number10> so things are bound to be slightly different by the end of the week
[09:26] <ibanezmatt13> that means the Saturday shouldn't be too much of an Eastily wind
[09:26] <ibanezmatt13> Westily wind*
[09:27] <number10> well it looks promising that both days are notheading east
[09:27] <ibanezmatt13> good good
[09:27] <daveake> Too early to say.
[09:28] <ibanezmatt13> Is there anyway to change the balloon config in the hourly predictor?
[09:28] <daveake> Where there's a lot of change, you can't be sure when that change will happen. Seems to me that the predictions are much better at saying what will happen, but not so good at when
[09:28] <chrisstubbsW> Looking forward to balloon fiesta 2014
[09:28] <number10> ah I missed fiesta 2013, was it good
[09:28] <daveake> New word for the glossary - "Fiesta: A single balloon launch"
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[09:29] <daveake> ibanezmatt13 Checking the mailing list - "Hourly Predictors For All"
[09:29] <ibanezmatt13> ok
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[09:34] <chrisstubbsW> I find that those SPOT tracker payloads dont get as much interest becuase there is nothing for us to actually track
[09:34] <SpeedEvil> Quite.
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[09:37] <daveake> Ic've said that before. Go the radio route and you "join the club" and get lots of help.
[09:37] <HixWork> I was shocked to read that the tally at the "Fiesta" dropped from am unprecedented 3 to 1. I don' doubt that "traffic chaos" had indded played a big part in this. I'll expect a full write up in the Daily Fail, sorry Mail, extolling the evils of drug induced partygoers ruining science
[09:38] <mattbrejza> also another good advert as to the merits of using spot trackers
[09:38] <gonzo__> noted the use of spot tracker. so ne real development done there. Wonder if he got it back?
[09:39] <craag> he did
[09:39] <craag> I wonder who the other 2 were.
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[09:41] <UpuWork> merits ? if it lands upside it doesn't work
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[09:41] <mattbrejza> that was the point :P
[09:41] <UpuWork> ah noted :)
[09:41] <mattbrejza> although someone did 'solve' that
[09:41] <mattbrejza> cant remember his name
[09:42] <UpuWork> yeah by using a radio tracker
[09:42] <mattbrejza> well he used a gimbal
[09:42] <UpuWork> sledgehammer...
[09:42] <chrisstubbsW> stick some 808 cams in there too
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[09:45] <gonzo__> if he offered to sort the site, notams, gas and bacon butties, he may actually get some interest
[09:46] <gonzo__> )in a field behind a pub, with camping......)
[09:46] <UpuWork> if he took part in the community it may help
[09:46] <gonzo__> there is that too
[09:47] <craag> I'm guessing he isn't going to the conf..
[09:47] <UpuWork> he hasn't bought a ticket
[09:48] <UpuWork> and last year he turned up with a screaming baby
[09:48] <craag> oh yeah I remember...
[09:48] <gonzo__> it is london, so I can sympathise there!
[09:48] <craag> gonzo__: You coming?
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[09:49] <gonzo__> nope sorry. really not a fan of london
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[09:50] <craag> Are you going to the BATC convention in october btw?
[09:51] <gonzo__> It's yorkshire this year isn't it? Prob not
[09:51] <craag> Yeah...
[09:51] <gonzo__> (I am sounding like a miserable old git !)
[09:52] <craag> I've been told I have to go, thinking about how to get up there though! Driving wouldn't be too pleasant.
[09:52] <craag> Last time I went up to Newcastle I took the coach, that took 18 hours..
[09:53] <gonzo__> tis a problem. My car is not the mosr economical in the world, and trains are silly expensive
[09:54] <craag> Yeah, far cheaper for me to drive than take the train. Coach is cheaper still but I waste 2 days travelling there and back.
[09:54] <mattbrejza> craag: you can get a train ticket from £5 to victoria
[09:54] <mattbrejza> but probably not at the times you want
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[09:55] <craag> It's from london to yorkshire that seems to be expensive.
[09:55] <mattbrejza> im surpised the coach took 18hrs
[09:56] <mattbrejza> i know there are coaches that go north and take like 6-8 maybe
[09:56] <craag> Well it wasn't direct, had to go via london.
[09:57] <gonzo__> flybee do direct flights to NCL. A quick look, about £100 rtn. Prob cheaper than petrol
[09:57] <craag> Hmm
[09:58] <craag> Fuel would be ~60 quid (I have a tiny car)
[09:59] <craag> But for the convenience, flying might be the way to do it...
[09:59] <nick_> away
[09:59] <gonzo__> My 4wd is as areodynnamic as a garden shed, so not too good on fuel.
[09:59] <nick_> oops...
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[10:00] <gonzo__> (the previous car was V8, if I got MPG in double figures I was happy. So this one is prob an improvement)
[10:01] <daveake> Worse than mine then :p
[10:02] <mattbrejza> we need a countdown in days at the top of the window to the conference
[10:04] <craag> mattbrejza: Are you going up from soton to the conf? There's a fair few of the soton contingent going up so we could carpool.
[10:05] <mattbrejza> i havnt decided yet, i might get the train to home (s.london) the day before, otherwise i could go up with you
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[10:05] <mattbrejza> gonna have to buy a travel card either way i think
[10:05] <mattbrejza> but ill probably stay at home for a bit after
[10:05] <mattbrejza> also i noticed you havnt bought a ticket yet
[10:05] <mattbrejza> andrew finally has
[10:05] <craag> ok np, mike and I are planning on going up early and coming back late that night.
[10:06] <craag> I have now
[10:06] <mattbrejza> ah yes
[10:06] <craag> Thought I should, seeing as I've rather committed myself to it :P
[10:06] <mattbrejza> there would be a couple more soton people but they arnt around that weekend :(
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[10:07] <mattbrejza> should actually write my presentation soon
[10:07] <mattbrejza> hows everyone else doing?
[10:10] <UpuWork> my plan is to make it up as I go along
[10:10] <mattbrejza> i cant really do that :(
[10:11] <mattbrejza> no slides with enlarged images and a few circuit diagrams?
[10:11] <UpuWork> surely given the subject if your talk you can say some rubbish then correct it a few words late r?
[10:11] <mattbrejza> (still wont take long)
[10:11] <UpuWork> that was funnier in my head
[10:12] <mattbrejza> ive already used almost 3000 processor hours doing simulations for it
[10:12] <mattbrejza> requires a bit more preparation :P
[10:12] M0TVU (d9290680@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.41.6.128) joined #highaltitude.
[10:12] <M0TVU> Good morning
[10:13] <M0TVU> Cany anyone help me please? - I'm looking for details of the motorola M665C pcb
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[10:16] <craag> lol UpuWork
[10:16] <craag> took me a while...
[10:17] <gonzo__> there is always a latency in fec
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[10:39] <M0TVU> Anyone in here yet?
[10:41] <fsphil> 192, yikes
[10:41] <fsphil> oh I read the wrong number
[10:41] <fsphil> 128
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> 2^7
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> 0x80
[10:44] <mattbrejza> 0o200 (thats how you write octal?)
[10:44] <fsphil> nobody writes octal
[10:44] <mattbrejza> i have seen one application where it tends to get used
[10:45] <mattbrejza> but only one
[10:45] <fsphil> file permissions?
[10:45] <mattbrejza> ok 2
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[12:06] <Laurenceb> http://www.n-prize.com/
[12:06] <Laurenceb> over soon
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[12:10] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRSAT0ghIo
[12:10] <Laurenceb> the fail might end soon
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[12:20] <SpeedEvil> har
[12:23] <Laurenceb> the nozzle is way to small
[12:23] <Laurenceb> its obvious just looking
[12:24] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sll6NOZewyI
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[12:34] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_aw
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[12:43] <ibanezmatt13> Afternoon
[12:44] <ibanezmatt13> Tracker aint getting a lock; hoping it's just the cloud coverage :/
[12:45] <mattbrejza> whats changed since last time it got a lock?
[12:45] <ibanezmatt13> well, just the clouds :)
[12:45] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: A more sensible video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aorjnobv-I0
[12:45] <mattbrejza> ibanezmatt13: well thats not really enough to stop it tbh
[12:45] <ibanezmatt13> hmm
[12:45] <mattbrejza> or at least if it is then you should look for sources of interference
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[12:46] <ibanezmatt13> it's reading the GPS fine as it's setting flight mode perfectly. It's getting a PUBX string to but no lock.
[12:46] <ibanezmatt13> I'll keep watching it
[12:46] Nick change: KipK_aw -> Kipkool
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[12:50] <ibanezmatt13> It is indoors mattbrejza so It could be the time of day with the satellites, the fact it's indoors, the bad weather and the fact there's a wifi dongle in the Pi...
[12:51] <mattbrejza> yea indoors wont help
[12:51] <mattbrejza> if in doors i wouldnt be worried so much
[12:51] <ibanezmatt13> I thought that, It is reading the GPS perfectly
[12:51] <mattbrejza> well depends how big your window is
[12:51] <mattbrejza> i never had any issues in a bay window
[12:52] <ibanezmatt13> Big window, it's open and I've got an active antenna :/
[12:52] <mattbrejza> still not ideal
[12:52] <ibanezmatt13> I'll leave it for a bit and try it outside later
[12:53] <mattbrejza> could always buy a GPS simulator (something that transmits simulated gps signals) and put the payload in that
[12:53] <mattbrejza> but probably outside of budgets
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[12:54] <ibanezmatt13> Yea, I've spent more than triple my initial budget...
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[12:57] <Darkside> only triple?
[12:57] <Darkside> you're doing well
[12:58] <mattbrejza> http://www.labsat.co.uk/index.php/products/labsat no price :(
[12:58] <ibanezmatt13> I'm gonna go put it outside now, one sec
[12:59] <ibanezmatt13> ok it's outside
[13:00] <ibanezmatt13> aha
[13:00] <ibanezmatt13> perhaps
[13:00] <ibanezmatt13> it's the battery power?
[13:00] <mattbrejza> you forgot to plug the gps in?
[13:00] <mattbrejza> (ive done that before)
[13:00] <mattbrejza> well you can measure the battery voltage and check
[13:01] <ibanezmatt13> Well I'm using 6 "normal" AAs, which should give 9v total. The voltage across the battery pack is just over 4
[13:01] <mattbrejza> oh lol
[13:01] <ibanezmatt13> Which should be enough to supply my 3.3v but maybe the current it's providing isn't enough?
[13:01] <ibanezmatt13> what d'you reckon?
[13:01] <mattbrejza> well theyre clearly flat
[13:01] <fsphil> not a chance, those batteries are flat :)
[13:02] <mattbrejza> measure the voltage to the gps
[13:02] <mattbrejza> i dont think itll be 3.3V
[13:02] <ibanezmatt13> cool, at least it's nothing major :)
[13:02] <ibanezmatt13> I'll go and check
[13:02] <mattbrejza> pi users must have a pile of dead testing batteries
[13:03] <fsphil> I've only run mine on a sealed lead acid so far
[13:03] <mattbrejza> ive yet to actually find a use for one yet
[13:04] <mattbrejza> i do have something in mind
[13:04] <mattbrejza> but thats a while away
[13:04] <fsphil> I've a few about the place, monitoring solar panels, camera watching the back garden
[13:04] <ibanezmatt13> voltage across GPS was 3.3v
[13:04] <ibanezmatt13> across whole battery pack = 4.6v
[13:04] <fsphil> gps might have shut down
[13:05] <ibanezmatt13> it's still reading bytes from it though. Flight mode is still being enabled
[13:05] <fsphil> is the voltage 3.3v steady?
[13:06] <ibanezmatt13> I've not got an occiloscope but. The decimal point on the multimeter was flashing quite quickly
[13:06] <fsphil> possibly the voltage dropping as the gps tries to draw current
[13:06] <fsphil> easy way to test though -- use fresh batteries :)
[13:06] <fsphil> I use rechargables when testing payloads
[13:06] <ibanezmatt13> I think that when the input to the switching reg gets lower, it can still supply the output voltage but it's far less smooth
[13:06] <fsphil> a lot cheaper
[13:07] <mattbrejza> tbh batteries from previous flights do me fine for testing
[13:07] <ibanezmatt13> hmm, I'll try and find some rechargables
[13:07] <fsphil> yea that too, the 4x AAs on the BBC flight still have a fair bit of charge in them
[13:07] <fsphil> and that was ages ago
[13:07] <mattbrejza> i tend to have the left overs from cameras too
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[13:09] <ibanezmatt13> Just found out that the cell with the least voltage is 1.33v
[13:09] <ibanezmatt13> So they can't be empty
[13:09] <mattbrejza> thats not under load though
[13:10] <ibanezmatt13> hmm, let me think
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[13:13] <Babs> ping anyone who knows about ESCs
[13:14] <Babs> even basics, i have a pretty simple question
[13:15] <ibanezmatt13> this is really quite worrying. Still nothing on new batteries
[13:16] <number10> did you take it outside ibanezmatt13 ?
[13:16] <ibanezmatt13> yeah
[13:16] <number10> what antenna is it?
[13:16] <ibanezmatt13> wait! I just thought of something
[13:16] <ibanezmatt13> an active
[13:16] <ibanezmatt13> brb
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[13:21] <ibanezmatt13> how long should I allow for the GPS to get a lock from boot
[13:21] <ibanezmatt13> a few minutes?
[13:21] <SpeedEvil> 12.5 minutes
[13:21] <SpeedEvil> (worst case)
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[13:22] <ibanezmatt13> really that long?
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[13:22] <SpeedEvil> That's worst case.
[13:22] <Randomskk> only 12.5?
[13:22] <ibanezmatt13> Ok, it's been running about 2 minutes
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[13:22] <SpeedEvil> In practice - you should have lock after 60-90s from cold - outside
[13:22] <Randomskk> I thought it was more like 20, worst case
[13:22] Nick change: lupine_85 -> lupine
[13:22] Possible future nick collision: lupine
[13:23] <Randomskk> oh no it is 12.5
[13:23] <Randomskk> 750s
[13:23] <ibanezmatt13> Ok, it's indoors, flight mode is being set so the GPS is working but no string coming through which means no lock
[13:23] <ibanezmatt13> but on windowledge
[13:23] <Randomskk> give it a bit of time, especially if it's a cold start
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[13:23] <mattbrejza> is that the time it takes to download all the data
[13:23] <mattbrejza> the name of which escapes me
[13:24] Nick change: ms7821_ -> ms7821
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> almanac/ephemiriedes
[13:24] <Randomskk> almanac? ephemeris?
[13:24] <mattbrejza> yea that one
[13:24] <Randomskk> you need both
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[13:24] <mattbrejza> *those ones :P
[13:25] <Randomskk> :P
[13:25] <Randomskk> right it's defo lunch time
[13:25] <mattbrejza> it was lunch time 1.30 ago
[13:26] <ibanezmatt13> If I get nothing before 2:30, I'll panic
[13:26] <mattbrejza> wait 2.30 ago :/
[13:26] <mattbrejza> you flying next weekend ibanezmatt13 ?
[13:26] <ibanezmatt13> This saturday :/
[13:27] <ibanezmatt13> It was running perfectly yesterday and I've not touched it
[13:27] <mattbrejza> gps does that
[13:27] <ibanezmatt13> So right now if it was 1km in the sky it would most likely work?
[13:27] <mattbrejza> you could wire the gps out to ucenter and see what its getting, but youve probably turned off those sentences
[13:28] <mattbrejza> depends whats wrong with it
[13:29] <ibanezmatt13> Before it was printing PUBX sentences
[13:29] <ibanezmatt13> But
[13:29] <ibanezmatt13> The sentence was like:
[13:29] <ibanezmatt13> PUBX,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,,0,0,0,0,0,0,0*WHATEVER
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[13:29] <ibanezmatt13> And flight mode is coming back true
[13:29] <ibanezmatt13> So I would assume the GPS is working
[13:29] <mattbrejza> you sure these batterues are good?
[13:30] <ibanezmatt13> I've just changed to a new battery
[13:30] <mattbrejza> 'sure' means test with DMM
[13:31] <ibanezmatt13> I can get voltage
[13:31] <ibanezmatt13> But not current
[13:31] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[13:32] <ibanezmatt13> voltage under load across battery: around 6.5v
[13:32] <ibanezmatt13> voltage out of regulator under load = 3.4v
[13:32] <ibanezmatt13> should be 3.3
[13:32] <ibanezmatt13> is that right?
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> yes
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[13:33] <mattbrejza> youre getting 6.5V from should be 9V?
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> Your meter/the regulator is probably making up the difference
[13:33] <ibanezmatt13> yes mattbrejza
[13:33] <mattbrejza> are you using potato batteries?
[13:33] <ibanezmatt13> at the moment yes, but it's a new one :)
[13:33] <ibanezmatt13> potato = pp3?
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[13:35] <mattbrejza> i thought PP3s are a bit shit
[13:35] <ibanezmatt13> they are
[13:35] <mattbrejza> is that what youve always been using
[13:35] <ibanezmatt13> no
[13:35] <mattbrejza> and same brand etc
[13:35] <ibanezmatt13> I've just changed back to Duracell but they're giving 4.5v into the regulator which should be 9v (under load)
[13:35] <mattbrejza> still not sure about the battery tbh
[13:36] <ibanezmatt13> I think I need some new batteries. If I could find my rechargables it would help
[13:36] <Laurenceb> any samba gurus here?
[13:36] <Laurenceb> how can i get a list of log ins?
[13:36] <Laurenceb> ie users connecting to my server
[13:37] <Randomskk> the samba logs? :P
[13:37] <Laurenceb> hmm
[13:37] <Laurenceb> wherezat?
[13:37] <Randomskk> well /var/log/samba but it might not be on
[13:38] <Randomskk> I don't know if it logs by default
[13:38] <Laurenceb> kk
[13:38] <Laurenceb> eeek
[13:38] <Laurenceb> tons of logs
[13:38] <Laurenceb> thanks
[13:38] <Randomskk> np
[13:39] Nick change: mathis__ -> mathis_
[13:41] <ibanezmatt13> mattbrejza:
[13:41] <ibanezmatt13> !!!!!
[13:41] <ibanezmatt13> We have data
[13:41] <ibanezmatt13> :D
[13:43] <mattbrejza> :D
[13:43] <Laurenceb> data?
[13:43] <Laurenceb> oh gps
[13:44] <ibanezmatt13> yep :)
[13:44] <ibanezmatt13> working perfectly now
[13:44] <ibanezmatt13> wonder what that was
[13:55] <ibanezmatt13> ah but, I've just restarted it and it's been running nearly 10 minutes without lock
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[14:02] <Laurenceb> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/69355000/jpg/_69355457_bsbmzajcyaacppr.jpg
[14:02] <Laurenceb> lolling
[14:02] <Laurenceb> they did a risk assessment for the banner
[14:02] <Laurenceb> i see hardhats and fluorescent jackets in force
[14:02] <mattbrejza> are these the people protesting against fraking at an oil well?
[14:02] <mattbrejza> *fracking
[14:02] <Laurenceb> yes but at least they did a risk assessment first
[14:03] <mattbrejza> good to konw
[14:03] <mattbrejza> it would have been a shame if they had hurt themselves
[14:03] <Laurenceb> someone might have fallen from the ladder...
[14:03] <Laurenceb> or maybe those are contractors they called in the install the banner for them...
[14:03] <Laurenceb> *to
[14:04] <fsphil> fracking protesters
[14:04] <Laurenceb> maybe its like a new career
[14:04] <Laurenceb> protest sign installation manager
[14:05] <Laurenceb> guy on the right of the ladder has a clipboard so it might be him
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[14:13] <gonzo__> how long before it's a greater penalty for not carrying out a safery assesmant for a riot, than actually orchistrating a riot?
[14:18] <ibanezmatt13> I'm beginning to think that Saturday might not happen...
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[14:33] <ibanezmatt13> haha, success
[14:33] <ibanezmatt13> lock gained in 40 seconds from startup
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[14:34] <ibanezmatt13> I have a line in my code: altitude = data[7]
[14:34] <ibanezmatt13> and it returns altitude in the form 130.330
[14:35] <ibanezmatt13> meters
[14:35] <ibanezmatt13> I'd like to get it to round it to the nearest metre
[14:35] <ibanezmatt13> So I did this:
[14:35] <ibanezmatt13> altitude = int(data[7])
[14:35] <ibanezmatt13> But, my code doesn't run properly with this
[14:35] <fsphil> what types are altitude and data?
[14:36] <mattbrejza> language?
[14:36] <mattbrejza> python?
[14:36] <ibanezmatt13> python yeah
[14:36] <fsphil> oh yea python
[14:36] <ibanezmatt13> So I need to get something with 3 decimal places to the nearest integer
[14:37] <fsphil> I'm surprised that doesn't work, your problem may be elsewhere
[14:38] <ibanezmatt13> Hmm, well with that line it doesn't work, without it it does
[14:38] <fsphil> how does it not work?
[14:38] <ibanezmatt13> I'm not sure
[14:39] <fsphil> I mean in what way does it fail
[14:39] <ibanezmatt13> oh, well. Even though it gets a lock, it doesn't send string
[14:39] <ibanezmatt13> So when it gets a lock it tries to parse it and it must fail there
[14:39] <fsphil> what are you doing with altitude?
[14:40] <ibanezmatt13> one sec
[14:40] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[14:41] <ibanezmatt13> at the moment I'm getting the altitude data with altitude=data[7] and I'm just appending it to the datastring as it is
[14:41] <ibanezmatt13> no conversion to a particular format
[14:42] <ibanezmatt13> I guess I could split it into a list and remove the last 3 digits and try it that way but that seems a bit overkill for something so simple
[14:44] <fsphil> I bet data[7] is a string
[14:44] <ibanezmatt13> How do you mean?
[14:45] <ibanezmatt13> https://github.com/ibanezmatt13/NORB/blob/master/NORB.py
[14:45] <ibanezmatt13> around line 186
[14:45] <fsphil> yea string
[14:46] <ibanezmatt13> Where is the problem?
[14:46] <fsphil> .split() returns a list of strings
[14:46] <ibanezmatt13> ah right
[14:46] <fsphil> int() won't work if you give it a string that isn't an integer
[14:46] <fsphil> I mean, int("42") would work
[14:47] <fsphil> but int("42.1") wouldn't
[14:47] <fsphil> convert it to a float first
[14:47] <ibanezmatt13> what's the point of int then?
[14:47] <fsphil> int(float(data[7]))
[14:47] <ibanezmatt13> thanks fsphil, but what does int actually do?
[14:47] <fsphil> it converts a floating point number to an integer
[14:48] <fsphil> though I'm surprised it's so strict with strings
[14:48] <ibanezmatt13> aah right
[14:48] <ibanezmatt13> Ok, I'll convert to float first, that should work
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[14:52] <gpee> hi. I made a sucessful launch and recovery over the last few days. video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzvsL7tXcA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
[14:53] <gpee> pictures here http://www.flickr.com/photos/geoff_pedder/sets/72157635135891121/
[14:54] <fsphil> nice river
[14:54] <fsphil> nice mountain
[14:54] <gpee> got up to just over 31km, went really well
[14:54] <fsphil> you've a rather nice corner of the planet there
[14:55] <gpee> yes, it's real nice thanks!
[14:55] <gpee> BC, Canada is quite amazing
[14:55] <SpeedEvil> I can see the likelyhood of having to do a _lot_ of walking to recover.
[14:56] <fsphil> yes not terribly recovery friendly if it landed on that mountain :)
[14:56] <ibanezmatt13> here's a new one fsphil, with altitude=int(float(data[7])) it failed the checksum :P
[14:56] <fsphil> what checksum?
[14:56] <ibanezmatt13> csum = str(hex(crc16f(string))).upper()[2:]
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> gpee: condensation on the lens on the way down?
[14:56] <ibanezmatt13> it failed on that line
[14:56] <fsphil> what error?
[14:56] <ibanezmatt13> invalid syntax
[14:57] <gpee> yep, we got lucky with the recovery!
[14:57] <ibanezmatt13> never had that before, didn't even touch that line
[14:57] <fsphil> what does string contain?
[14:57] <gpee> yes, as it went through cloud the lens got covered in condensation
[14:57] <ibanezmatt13> same as it did before
[14:58] <ibanezmatt13> wait, fsphil found the error
[14:58] <ibanezmatt13> missing bracket :/
[14:58] <fsphil> there are three on both sides
[14:58] <fsphil> where was the missing one?
[14:59] <ibanezmatt13> On the float line... only 1 on the end when I put it in,
[14:59] <ibanezmatt13> Stupid keyboard
[15:00] <gpee> anyway, thought i'd share as a couple of guys helped me on here. Thanks!
[15:00] <fsphil> thanks gpee
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[15:04] <mattbrejza> hey fsphil , what was the name of your new sentence format? i cant find on the wiki...
[15:04] <fsphil> the character set?
[15:04] <mattbrejza> yea
[15:04] <fsphil> hatty
[15:04] <mattbrejza> ah :)
[15:04] <mattbrejza> (i thought it was a whole sentence format but w/e)
[15:04] <fsphil> nah. I did a binary format that does position only
[15:05] <fsphil> but never really followed it up
[15:05] <fsphil> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:apx
[15:05] <mattbrejza> i was thinking of making a new sentence w/ FEC
[15:05] <mattbrejza> would need to replace fldigi too
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[15:06] <fsphil> I was thinking about a way to put FEC on the regular strings
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> Just jam a few bytes in
[15:06] <fsphil> prefixing it with a small packet that contained the length of the string following (with a little FEC on that)
[15:06] <mattbrejza> you could tag them after the checksum
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> what you really gain massively then from is a sync demodulator
[15:07] <fsphil> then a larger FEC block on the string itself
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: My other thought way back when was tiny packets
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: Say 3 byte packets - with FEC - emitted according to how important they are
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: latitude most significant digit would normally get emitted maybe once every 10 mins.
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> least significant might get updated every 20s
[15:08] <mattbrejza> FEC works better with long frame lengths though
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> It gets easy if you have a sync demodulator for the current format
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> else mis-framing kills you
[15:10] <mattbrejza> well if your source code is good enough you can only 'lock' onto the sequence at the start of the string
[15:10] <mattbrejza> i just was trying to google the best way to do it
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: basically, you don't do that
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> Maximal likelyhood decoding.
[15:11] <fsphil> what do you mean by sync demodulator?
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> You take the whole string that's long enough - then run it through various possible offsets to work out possible positions.
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: For example - assume constantly transmitting RS232 7N1
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: you do not demodulate each word.
[15:12] <mattbrejza> look for the pattern 01xxxxxxx01xxxxxxx01xxxxxxx.... ?
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: You look at all of the bits in a long bitstream, and consider what is the likelyhood - looking at the sum of all the 9th bits - that that is the stop bit
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[15:13] <fsphil> ah ha
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> So you want one bit 0, one bit 1
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> Rather than the existing thing - where if you have an error in the start or the stop bit - you're screwed - and FEC can't really fix that
[15:13] <mattbrejza> question is then whats the optimal way of doing it - using what rs232 already has, just having a long start sequence etc
[15:13] <fsphil> I tried something similar, only I had a sample buffer the exact length of a byte
[15:13] <fsphil> and averaged the last x bytes worth of samples
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[15:14] <fsphil> never did finish that
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> RS232 has the basic flaw if you try to decode asynchronously - on the basis of each char - that if the start/stop bits are screwed up - you've lost a char.
[15:14] <mattbrejza> then once youve found the signal it will help to have non stop strings so you dont have to find the string every time (i can only assume)
[15:14] <fsphil> yea
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> And dependant on the design of the decoder - you may not know how many chars you've lost.
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[15:15] <SpeedEvil> And that happens about 25% of the time there is a signle bit error in a word - you lose the whole word
[15:15] <fsphil> I do simple timing to work out lost bytes for ssdv
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[15:15] <fsphil> though with RS codes, it works on a per-byte basis anyway
[15:16] <fsphil> doesn't matter if one bit is wrong or the whole byte is lost
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> Interleaving so having 7/8 bits correct in a word is useful isn't that hard though
[15:18] <mattbrejza> one issue i thought of is that if we improve the transmission too much we'll have bandwidth we dont know what to do with
[15:18] <mattbrejza> 10Hz updates?
[15:18] <fsphil> the timer based rtty functions might not be accurate enough too :)
[15:18] <fsphil> the basic fldigi demodulator handles them fairly well
[15:19] <mattbrejza> my decoder can cope with 10% error in timing
[15:19] <fsphil> something that expects good timing from the source would have trouble
[15:19] <mattbrejza> the issue is if you have non integer stop bit periods
[15:19] <gonzo__> teach people to use interrupts based tx
[15:20] <mattbrejza> if we redesign it, we should redesign without thinking whether everyone can implement it as easily, after all you can always fall back to rtty
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[15:21] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: Pictures is almost about it
[15:21] <mattbrejza> issue is that jpgs are aready compressed, we can do much better on telemetry if moving away from ascii
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[15:23] <mattbrejza> id say the limit of a FSK system with 3kHz of BW is about 600-700bit/s
[15:24] <mattbrejza> maybe a bit more if you used MSK spacing
[15:24] <fsphil> I've had 1200 working, but only just
[15:24] <mattbrejza> what spacing does that use?
[15:24] <fsphil> 600hz
[15:24] <mattbrejza> so its MSK?
[15:25] <fsphil> yep
[15:25] <mattbrejza> i think you need a coherent rx for that>
[15:25] <fsphil> or as close as an ntx2 allowed to it anyway
[15:25] <fsphil> I was just using the ft817
[15:25] <mattbrejza> coherent demod rather
[15:25] <fsphil> tested over a 10km range
[15:26] <fsphil> (using a yagi, but it wasn't line of sight)
[15:26] <mattbrejza> using fldigi?
[15:26] <fsphil> yea
[15:26] <mattbrejza> i would guess there was quite a lot of ISI
[15:27] <mattbrejza> or does flidigi have a different MSK demodulator?
[15:27] <fsphil> nope, just using the regular rtty one
[15:27] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3-aNXqc9B8
[15:27] <mattbrejza> yea i think fsk should be spaced at 1/T for non coherent, and 1/2T for coherent
[15:27] <mattbrejza> but i might be wrong
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[15:28] <mattbrejza> SpeedEvil: ? ^
[15:28] Action: SpeedEvil is not really awake.
[15:28] Action: SpeedEvil has been doing too much moving stuff around today.
[15:28] Action: SpeedEvil needs some minions.
[15:28] <mattbrejza> fsphil: that sounds horrible :P
[15:28] <fsphil> just noise :)
[15:29] <fsphil> 300 baud is probably the last speed that sounds a bit like rtty
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> Damn - that's a familiar noise
[15:29] <mattbrejza> so dave managed 600 baud ssdv alright(ish)?
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> Spectrum fastloader
[15:29] <fsphil> haha
[15:29] <fsphil> yea 600 baud worked well
[15:30] <mattbrejza> so 900 with a better FEC should work
[15:30] <fsphil> Tim used 1200 in a flight for some images
[15:30] <fsphil> though it was a bit hit and miss
[15:30] <mattbrejza> 900 FSK using 2700Hz being probably the highest baud without going to MSK
[15:31] <mattbrejza> my other idea is to use MFSK across the entire 434 allocation
[15:31] <mattbrejza> sure noone will mind
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> Just re-use GPS with an unused PRN.
[15:33] <mattbrejza> GPS is only 50 baud
[15:33] <mattbrejza> but will perform somewhat better
[15:33] <mattbrejza> SNR wise
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> It's really 1000 baud
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> EAch bit gets sent 20*
[15:34] <mattbrejza> i remember 50baud, but not much else
[15:34] <mattbrejza> oh right
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[15:34] <mattbrejza> a 20x repetition code?
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> yes
[15:35] <mattbrejza> odd choice
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[15:35] <mattbrejza> i guess they dont want to rx to do too much work
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> Quite. 1970s tech
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> Also it simplifies locking
[15:35] <mattbrejza> i forgot it was that old
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> Also not coincidentally - c/50 > earth diameter.
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[15:37] <eroomde> it's not a mega odd choice
[15:38] <eroomde> they just decided how much spectrum they want to spread over
[15:38] <eroomde> and it so happens that the spreadying code with that length had to be sent 20 times to last as long as one bit length
[15:39] <mattbrejza> oh ok
[15:39] <Babs___> Afternoon eroomde - your ESC used in the airship video with your apu sounding mate - was it a designated forward and reverse esc?
[15:40] <Babs___> There seem to be some that are one way (RC plane) and some that are two way (RC cars)?
[15:41] <eroomde> suspect it might just be one direction
[15:41] <eroomde> but i don't remember
[15:41] <eroomde> years ago
[15:42] <Babs___> I have to do the gimbal thang in two directions - it will be just a software thing I imagine in the esc
[15:42] <eroomde> yep
[15:43] <Babs___> But I reckon easier to start with one that definitely does forward and reverse (ie car) than one direction but potentially reprogram (eg multirotor)
[15:43] <eroomde> a slightly more sophisticated ESC should be able to cope with it
[15:43] <Babs___> Done. Will get a car esc and do some messing around with it.
[15:43] <Babs___> Ta
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[15:53] <gonzo__> earlier comments about useable bandwidth.... There is the limitation due to drift and non AFC rx. especially using poor tx like the ntx2
[15:54] <gonzo__> there are few options for off the shelf TX at the mo
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[15:56] <mattbrejza> that is the issue with 2700Hz usage
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[15:56] <mattbrejza> would need rig control
[15:57] <fsphil> or better radios :)
[15:58] <fsphil> I've done 2400 baud on fldigi with an FCD
[15:58] <mattbrejza> actually what is the passband on a normal ham radio, flidigi limits to 3kHz
[15:58] <fsphil> you can increase it to 4khz
[15:58] <fsphil> it samples at 8000hz
[15:59] <fsphil> but my ft817 is about 2.8khz bandpass
[15:59] <mattbrejza> shame its not larger
[15:59] <fsphil> aye
[15:59] <fsphil> probably no technical reason why it can't be, that's just what amateurs have been using
[15:59] <fsphil> don't need more for voice
[16:00] <fsphil> and all existing digi modes have been very narrow so far
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[16:11] <gonzo__> with the cost of SDR dongles, radio BWt should not really be a limitation
[16:11] <gonzo__> BW
[16:24] <mfa298_> the TS-2000 can be opened up to 0-5khz but I don't know what it's like at the edges
[16:27] <gonzo__> the AR5000 has ajustable IF, but this seems to widen it about the carrier point. So if you select 6kHz BW, you see the other sideband image come in
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[16:31] <Astrobiologist> I'm beginning to obsess about morse
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[16:34] <Astrobiologist> Does spacenear.us support morse?
[16:34] <Astrobiologist> It has it's own old-world charm and history like hellschrieb or something
[16:35] <Astrobiologist> I know I don't need to learn it for the foundation exam but it's addictive!
[16:36] <Astrobiologist> Hmm, would only be 1 baud or something
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[16:37] <Astrobiologist> But fun to listen to by ear alone?
[16:37] Nick change: M0JSN -> jonsowman
[16:44] <craag> Astrobiologist: fldigi supports decoding it, so you could.
[16:45] <craag> Although there's no character for , and $ and * is there?
[16:46] <arko> $ = · · · – · · –
[16:46] <craag> And I just found the code for ,
[16:46] <arko> not sure about *
[16:46] <arko> just make one up
[16:47] <arko> who's gonna stop you? the international morse police?
[16:47] <craag> Lol, you would annoy soooo many people just randomly using it in QSOs on HF..
[16:47] <mfa298_> wasn't there an alternative in dl-fldigi for baudot
[16:48] <arko> let the hams get mad, gives them something to complain about on their daily nets
[16:48] <arko> I always found that to be contributing to society
[16:48] <craag> haha yes, I listened to some of the US nets when I was out there... a lot worse than the uk ones!
[16:49] <craag> My local one ranted for a full day about someone using a 'fake' M0-something callsign.. the day after I put a call in!
[16:50] <arko> US nets are about 3 things
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[16:50] <arko> health of other hams, politics, and guns
[16:50] <arko> and if you disagree with them, they gang up on you
[16:50] <cde> fuck yeah!
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[16:50] <ibanezmatt13> Evening
[16:50] <cde> </sarcasm>
[16:51] <craag> yep
[16:51] <craag> oh and religion
[16:51] <craag> first US HF contact our uni club got from this side of the atlantic turned out to be a Jehovah's witnesses net
[16:52] <arko> LOL
[16:52] <arko> troll gold
[16:53] <mattbrejza> arnt you supposed to avoid politics on air in the uk?
[16:53] <craag> "We do triiy[sic] to be accomodating, we do welcome people of other faiths.."
[16:53] <craag> Luckily the ionosphere stepped in and stopped the contact there
[16:54] <mfa298_> mattbrejza: from memory polotics and religion. Hence most of the UK nets just talk about their health
[16:54] <craag> mattbrejza: yep
[16:54] <craag> But rules don't seem to apply below 4MHz :P
[16:54] <mfa298_> presumably their health might be better if they didn't spend all their time sat down complaining about it.
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[16:56] <arko> wait what?
[16:56] <arko> you can't talk about politics on the air?
[16:56] <craag> Yeah I stopped trying to get a contact on the local repeater in virginia after they talked about the cushions they used in the shack to relieve their hemorrhoids, 3 days in a row.
[16:56] <craag> You're not supposed to
[16:56] <arko> ah
[16:56] <arko> thats weird
[16:56] <craag> It's to avoid heated discussion, argument, jamming, etc
[16:57] <arko> craag: that literally describes ham radio out here
[16:57] <arko> hence why i make fun of hams while being one...
[16:57] <arko> actually, im not a ham, but i have a ham license
[16:57] <arko> ^ accurate
[16:57] <craag> There are several ham groups, I met a few of the ATV groups while I was out there and they were very different.
[16:58] <craag> Yep I have a license, but am very rarely on the air
[16:58] <arko> word
[16:58] <craag> Only really on the local repeater on the way to work.
[16:59] <arko> i use to do that until the 2 only cool people moved away to seattle
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[17:00] <arko> 2 people who i liked to talk to on the local repeater*
[17:00] <craag> That sucks
[17:00] <arko> everyones moving to seattle..
[17:00] Action: arko glares at nigelvh
[17:00] <cde> but why
[17:00] <arko> tech jobs
[17:00] <Astrobiologist> -- -.-- -... ..- -- --. .-. .- .--. . ... ... ..- -.-. -.- , that sort of thing was it?
[17:00] <nigelvh> Howdy
[17:01] <arko> damn you and your superior city
[17:01] <nigelvh> You just need to come to seattle too. It's where all the cool people are.
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[17:01] <arko> We need to move JPL there
[17:01] <arko> and im set
[17:01] <nigelvh> I am totally behind that plan.
[17:02] <craag> Seattle's the only corner of the US I haven't been to yet. More of a UK climate but with awesome mountains?
[17:02] <Astrobiologist> Nigelvh how do they prevent piles there then? I never remember Fraiser Crane having hemorrhoids
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[17:02] <Astrobiologist> Do you have special chairs or something?
[17:03] <nigelvh> craag, yes, mountains + awesome.
[17:03] <arko> craag: nice forests too
[17:03] <arko> and bridges that wobble!
[17:03] <nigelvh> Not any more.
[17:03] <arko> and the supreme leader microsoft-jong il
[17:03] <nigelvh> Most of us avoid them.
[17:03] <arko> haha
[17:04] <nigelvh> A few get sucked in, but there are many other opportunities.
[17:04] <craag> My boss in virginia had a brother somewhere near there, each saturday he'd walk up some mountain and then ski down. Photos looked incredible.
[17:05] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_aw
[17:05] <nigelvh> I think the Pacific Northwest is a pretty awesome place to live.
[17:05] <Astrobiologist> Craag ahh that's how they avoid them in Seattle
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[17:06] <craag> Astrobiologist: With scenery like that, I'd want to go climb some mountains!
[17:08] <Astrobiologist> And I suppose you could get ham contacts on the way up and down with a handheld with a throat mike
[17:09] <Astrobiologist> And mainly talk about how you broke your leg because you were in a QSO on a black run etc etc
[17:11] <jcoxon> ping Upu
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[17:14] <nigelvh> craag, sorry for the long link, but here's a panorama you'd like. http://photosynth.net/view.aspx?cid=70d08866-3c32-4824-9fc6-f5d59b39bc5a&m=false&i=0:0:0&c=0:0:0&z=549.637456268524&d=-1.51396156784334:-0.595541888751365:-0.580630871240486&p=0:0&t=False
[17:14] <nigelvh> I took that from the top of a tower on top of a local mountain.
[17:14] <Upu> evening jcoxon
[17:15] <jcoxon> quick question - whats the mass of a rockblock sat modem?
[17:15] <jcoxon> can't find it anywhere
[17:15] <Upu> err ~ 150g I think
[17:15] <Upu> not sure
[17:15] <Upu> daveake has 2 he'll know
[17:16] <ibanezmatt13> http://filestore.aqa.org.uk/subjects/AQA-MFP1-QP-JUN12.PDF I keep getting 1.2 as the answer but the mark scheme says it's 1.4 (first question)
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[17:19] <ibanezmatt13> 5xsquared-7x+1=0 I get x = 1 or x = 0.2. Is that right?
[17:20] Nick change: KipK_aw -> Kipkool
[17:20] <ibanezmatt13> ah wait I see
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[17:23] <craag> nigelvh: Thanks, bit broken in chrome on linux. I'll take a look on my desktop once the ADSL is back up.
[17:23] mikestir (~quassel@2001:470:1f09:1c2b:1c06:41b4:6f7b:28b1) joined #highaltitude.
[17:24] <craag> Ran out to the car and plugged in the chase car wifi :P
[17:24] <nigelvh> Ah, yeah, it requires silverlight.
[17:24] <craag> oh..
[17:24] <craag> ok, still I can see some of it, looks sweet.
[17:24] <nigelvh> M$FT sucked me in to silverlight with their nice panorama app.
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[17:26] <ibanezmatt13> http://filestore.aqa.org.uk/subjects/AQA-MFP1-QP-JUN12.PDF I can't do question 1 :(
[17:26] <ibanezmatt13> There's no way I can manage further maths
[17:27] <ibanezmatt13> I solve the quadratic and get roots 1 and 0.2 so adding the roots gives 1.2. How do they get 1.4?
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[17:29] <Randomskk> ibanezmatt13: are you sure about that solution
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[17:29] <Randomskk> if x = 1, then 5 - 7 + 1 = 0
[17:29] <Randomskk> but that's not true, so I don't think x=1 is a solution
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[17:30] <ibanezmatt13> hmm
[17:30] <Randomskk> you're allowed a calculator on FP1
[17:30] <Randomskk> so like
[17:30] <Randomskk> just solve it on that
[17:30] <Randomskk> much much quicker
[17:30] <Randomskk> I assume you have an fx-991ES or similar
[17:30] <Randomskk> something that can solve quadratics
[17:30] <ibanezmatt13> nope :/
[17:31] <Randomskk> well get one
[17:31] <Randomskk> fantastic calculators
[17:31] <Randomskk> graphing calcs are nice for further maths but a bit expensive and not that great really
[17:31] <ibanezmatt13> Randomskk: That quadratic right, I factorised it (5x-1)(x-1)
[17:31] <Randomskk> but a simple calc that can do good stuff like quadratic equations and solving general expressions is worth its weight in gold
[17:31] <ibanezmatt13> I'll get one
[17:31] <Randomskk> I don't think your factoring is correct
[17:31] <Randomskk> try quadratic formula
[17:32] <Randomskk> will quickly suggest that the answer is not rational
[17:32] <Randomskk> I recommend the fs-991ES but I understand there are newer versions now
[17:32] <Randomskk> mine is about 6 years old
[17:32] <ibanezmatt13> I tried that and I got 7+/-sqrt29 over 10
[17:32] <Randomskk> maybe 7
[17:32] <fsphil> you get used to a calculator, horrible when it breaks and you have to re-learn
[17:32] <mfa298_> although it might be worth waiting until you're at college, I think when I did a levels the college had a couple of recommended calculators and had a discount scheme in place.
[17:32] <Randomskk> fsphil: you make sure you can still operate without one :P
[17:33] <Randomskk> meh, the calculators are like £10 these days
[17:33] <ibanezmatt13> I'm really starting to doubt whether I should take further maths if I can't even get this
[17:33] <Randomskk> one sec, gotta finish this thing for work real quick and I'll run you through it
[17:33] <ibanezmatt13> thanks
[17:33] <fsphil> I really wish I'd done more advanced maths
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[17:34] <fsphil> though I'd probably have hated it too :)
[17:35] <Randomskk> it's so worth doing
[17:35] <ibanezmatt13> I want to be able to do further maths but taking it might be worse than not taking it in my case... It's fine I've got a whole 3 days to decide
[17:36] <Randomskk> are you about to start lower sixth?
[17:36] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah
[17:36] <Randomskk> don't worry about being able to complete FP1 questions then!!
[17:36] <Randomskk> you haven't been taught any of this yet
[17:36] <ibanezmatt13> well, I should be able to do quadratics
[17:36] <ibanezmatt13> Looking at this question I can't work out why I'm getting the wrong answer
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[17:39] <ibanezmatt13> Randomskk: I understand now
[17:39] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[17:39] <ibanezmatt13> It was actually quite simple
[17:40] <Randomskk> haha oh ok
[17:40] <Randomskk> well I was nearly done writing it out but w/e :P
[17:40] <Randomskk> what did you miss?
[17:41] <ibanezmatt13> I factorised it wrong. Tried the formula and didn't know what to do from there, but then I realised I just needed to add the two solutions :
[17:41] <ibanezmatt13> I'm off on my bike for a bit now
[17:41] <ibanezmatt13> See you :)
[17:42] <Randomskk> seeya
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[17:42] <Randomskk> take further maths!
[17:42] <Randomskk> aww
[17:42] <mikestir> hmmm doesn't "write down" mean there's an easy solution?
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[17:43] <mikestir> embarrassingly I'm stuck, but it has been 15 years
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[17:47] <mikestir> oh I see the easy way. lol
[17:50] <mikestir> mfa298_: I committed some more work on the optimised branch of webradio. It works on pi now until you start streaming the audio. Should be ok with the dongle set to 1.2Msamples
[17:51] <mfa298_> nice
[17:51] <mikestir> the profiling now tells you how many ms in a second it's busy too
[17:51] <mikestir> which is more useful
[17:51] <mikestir> it's over 900 :)
[17:51] <mfa298_> hopefully I can play later. Currently trying to fix some Raid arrays :(
[17:52] <mikestir> k. I might be around a bit later
[17:52] <mikestir> it's in the public repo anyway
[17:52] <mattbrejza> btw mikestir could this be used as a stand alone rx on a pc for normal use?
[17:52] <mattbrejza> bearing in mind with added decoder itll be better than fldigi
[17:52] <mikestir> no reason why not
[17:53] <mikestir> no reason why someone couldn't write a native client instead of the browser one too
[17:53] <mikestir> which would improve the audio latency issue
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[17:53] <mikestir> brb
[17:53] <mattbrejza> ive also been mentioning now and then that we need to rewrite fldigi so we can add more modes but it kinda looks like thats what youre doing
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[17:56] <mfa298_> hmm, once it's got some decoders in it having the ability to just feed in audio would be good (and presumably easy) then it could become a very nice alternative to dl-fldigi
[17:57] <mfa298_> especially if it could use audio devices with multiple inputs (although that might need ASIO which licensing on windows might be interesting for)
[17:58] <mattbrejza> well can start with R + L for two chans
[17:59] <mfa298_> One of my devices doesn't have L + R, just input 1-6
[18:00] <mattbrejza> ah 6 channels :)
[18:00] <mfa298_> but L+R would be a good start
[18:01] <mfa298_> (at this rate I'll be looking for a radio with balanced outputs next)
[18:01] <mattbrejza> how will that help?
[18:01] <mfa298_> it's audio, of course it will help, along with the wooden knobs :p
[18:02] <craag> haha
[18:02] <mattbrejza> make sure you use a decent ADC http://www.alesis.com/masterlink
[18:03] <mfa298_> In reality it wouldn't make a difference, (unless doing something mad like running long audio cables under an electricity pylon)
[18:03] <mattbrejza> http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/adc/adc1-usb
[18:04] <mattbrejza> bargin
[18:04] <mattbrejza> $17950
[18:04] <mattbrejza> *1795
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[18:08] <mfa298_> well I'm probably half way there: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/m-audio-fast-track-ultra-usb-2.0-audio-interface
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[18:09] <mattbrejza> im glad the description quotes the USB bitrate figures
[18:09] <mattbrejza> totally relevent
[18:10] <mfa298_> unfortunately I think I have to deal with dodgy reviews. Im not sure there are any official pages for it now.
[18:11] <mfa298_> no doubt the bitrates are for the audiophiles who'll believe anything (without understanding if it's better or not)
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[18:14] Nick change: William -> Willdude123
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[18:14] <Willdude123> Hi
[18:15] <Willdude123> I really should get round to doing the ublox tests at some point.
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[18:22] <Willdude123> Is the royal mail ban on batteries only for lithiums or does it include alkalines?
[18:23] <mfa298_> I think it's mostly lithium but I'm sure google can confirm
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> I don't recall any mention of alkaline - I know old NiCd/NiMH is banned too
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> There is an exception for in-packaging
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> http://www.royalmail.com/personal/help-and-support/Tell-me-about-Prohibited-Goods
[18:24] <Willdude123> Lol
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries when not sent with, or contained in/connected to an electronic device, are prohibited.
[18:25] <mattbrejza> they initially suspected lithuim batteries for bringing down that ups plane
[18:25] <Willdude123> SpeedEvil, have you got some script or did you just find that link?
[18:25] <number10> Randomskk: is the fs-991ES allowed in A level exams
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: I happened to have that link in my awesomebar, so I typed 'royal mail' and copied it from the list
[18:26] <Willdude123> Wow.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> As I'm on royal mails actual mailing list.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> Because I bought 700 quids worth of stamps that rapidly became 1000 quids worth
[18:26] <Babs> i've just ordered some lithium ion batteries that are air freighted in from HK, so this should be a nice test.
[18:26] <Willdude123> It's just you responded faster than Zeusbot,
[18:26] <Randomskk> number10: yea
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> I started looking just after the last line I posted though
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> It was not a direct response
[18:27] <number10> ta, thats cool - I think nephew needs a new one
[18:27] <Randomskk> I can't remember the name of the newer model. it has prettier looking buttons.
[18:27] <Randomskk> but it's a solid calcualtor.
[18:27] <Randomskk> be sure to get the descendent not the slightly lower tier one which can't do the cool stuff
[18:28] Lunar_Lander (~kevin@p5488A1EA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:28] <Lunar_Lander> does anyone of you have a quick contact to Robert Harrison?
[18:29] <number10> ok thanks Randomskk will take a look - I think this is http://www.amazon.co.uk/Casio-FX-991ESPLUS-SA-UH-FX-991ESPLUS-Scientific-Calculator/dp/B0034BAQS8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376933917&sr=8-1&keywords=Casio+FX-991ES+Plus
[18:29] <Willdude123> Hi Lunar_Lander
[18:30] <Willdude123> Lunar_Lander, wie geht es Ihnen heute?
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[18:30] <Lunar_Lander> I am good, but would be better if I could let Rob Harrison know that he potentially has a worm on his PC
[18:30] <Willdude123> Who's he?
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> ah he did fly balloons in the UK as well
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> he is here sometimes
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> he was on BBC, CNN and so on with it
[18:31] <Randomskk> number10: that's the one.
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[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> hi Randomskk
[18:31] <number10> great - not bad price
[18:31] <Randomskk> I'm not sure there's an reasno to get it over the non-Plus version
[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> today I'll gonna try to associate the footprints to the schematic
[18:31] <Randomskk> any*
[18:32] <Randomskk> I think it's the same hardware inside
[18:32] <Randomskk> but yea it's really good.
[18:32] <Willdude123> What's not a bad price? Did I miss something?
[18:32] <Willdude123> Lunar_Lander, How do you know he potentially has a worm on his PC?
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> he sent a spam message on Twitter
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> I doubt he'd write "you'd never guess you'd never guess (URL)"
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> with the URL being a bitly link
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[18:35] <number10> I think the plus one has just been reqorked a bit - keys spaced out a little etc
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[18:36] <Randomskk> yea
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[18:36] <Willdude123> Can't you preview bit ly links somewhere?
[18:37] <Lunar_Lander> don't know
[18:37] <Lunar_Lander> but you should know that spam is a danger
[18:37] <Willdude123> I have a friend who's family is really cautious about viruses and PC stuff and his mum is really scared of the internet, and doesn't let him stream anything.
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:38] <Willdude123> And they spend hundreds on security software because they think it stops them from getting viruses, when the truth is they'd be better of being aware of threats and being able to locate them accurately themselves rather than trusting a piece of software, as that's when you become complacent.
[18:41] <jcoxon> ping fsphil
[18:42] <craag> Yep just awareness can get you there. I've used free avg, now mse, and only had one virus since I had my own pc, that was when I plugged in a borrowed USB stick and AVG flagged an autorun worm immediately.
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: To a degree true.
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: The problem is that people have limited time. And it can be easier to just purchase a solution.
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> I can manufacture my own replacement cups from clay that is in a sack in the garden.
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> Or, I can purchase 36 acceptable porcelain ones for 30 quid delivered.
[18:46] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:47] <craag> Yep, for most people a decent virus/malware protection package is a good idea.
[18:47] <mikestir> but you can't buy good security practice
[18:47] <craag> So if anyone asks you (as some who 'knows about computers'), tell them they should get a good one.
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> mikestir: Sure you can
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> mikestir: remote admin. :)
[18:48] <Willdude123> SpeedEvil, Yeah, I suppose. Their ignorance does annoy me slightly.
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> At some point you need to realise that most ignorant people know things that you don't.
[18:49] <Willdude123> Like streaming. It's just a fear of the internet really.
[18:49] <mikestir> to a degree, but it doesn't stop the user from handing over control of their machine to some random who phones them up claiming to be from $ISP
[18:49] <Willdude123> Indeed.
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> A blanket ban on streaming is kinda silly.
[18:49] <Willdude123> They have pretty damn near unlimited internet.
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> As that's not really where any risk - other than 'my child is on webcam' comes in.
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[18:50] <Willdude123> His parents (and him) are *very* intelligent people.
[18:50] <Willdude123> Hi daveake.
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[18:50] <SpeedEvil> Though mass market TV can be quite brain melty.
[18:52] <Willdude123> I think the internet isn't much to be scared of.
[18:52] Nick change: MichaelC|Away -> MichaelC
[18:52] <Willdude123> You need to just know exactly what happens when you click that button.
[18:54] <Willdude123> daveake, where are the predictions heading for the flight on the 25th?
[18:54] <arko> Mordor
[18:55] <craag> nope
[18:55] <craag> no trees in mordor
[18:55] <arko> ah good point
[18:55] <arko> the amazon it is
[18:55] <Willdude123> Heh
[18:55] <arko> no wonder there are no hab's in south america
[18:56] <Willdude123> arko, when's this flight of your's?
[18:56] <arko> trees 100's of feet up
[18:56] <arko> Willdude123??
[18:56] <Willdude123> You said you were scared of flying,
[18:56] <arko> ....
[18:56] <arko> hmm
[18:56] <arko> i rather not say..
[18:56] <arko> >_>
[18:56] <Willdude123> Oh
[18:57] <Willdude123> I thought you were flying to the UK.
[18:57] <Willdude123> Why?
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> Clearly fangorn forest.
[18:57] <arko> Willdude123: yes i am
[18:57] <arko> on sept 4
[18:57] <Willdude123> Nice
[18:58] <arko> in fear of being sent airplane disaster videos the day before was the reason i held back ;)
[18:58] <craag> SpeedEvil: Where the trees don't just catch the payloads, they eat them..
[18:58] <Willdude123> arko, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Dj-M35MGU
[18:59] <Willdude123> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrNFXK5Ut-4
[18:59] <Willdude123> Have you ever flown before?
[18:59] <arko> yes
[18:59] <arko> i know a lot about how planes work too
[18:59] <arko> doesn't help
[18:59] <arko> its an irrational fear really
[18:59] <arko> i even stopped myself when i was getting my pilots license
[19:00] <Willdude123> You are scared of flying and you were going to get a pilots license?
[19:00] <arko> because i knew deep down inside that if there was a scary event that I couldn't keep my cool
[19:00] <arko> i attempted to flush the fear out
[19:00] <arko> its a good way to approach things
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[19:01] <Willdude123> Did you do actual lessons?
[19:01] <arko> helped me get over a lot of the original fear, but not all of it
[19:01] <arko> yeah
[19:01] <arko> got about 12 hours in
[19:02] <arko> i can take off, fly, and land a plane
[19:02] <arko> its been about a year
[19:02] <arko> so i would need a refresher
[19:02] <Willdude123> Sorry but your situation does seem slightly ironic.
[19:02] <Willdude123> I don't mean to be rude.
[19:02] <arko> it's very ironic
[19:02] <arko> i know
[19:03] <Willdude123> See, I'd be a fine pilot because I have no fear of death. I just have a fear of dying painfully.
[19:03] <arko> it was a chose to stop because i couldn't get rid of the gut fear as much as i tried
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[19:04] <arko> i've met good pilots, the good ones that have lived had good control of emotion in hard times
[19:04] <Willdude123> The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) told the Transport Select Committee that when it polled 500 members, 43 per cent said that they had fallen asleep during a flight.
[19:05] <arko> you can't ration though that emotion, a lot of people have this "animal instinct" kick in when dangerous things start happening
[19:06] <Willdude123> arko, I wouldn't really panic in a situation. Because at least then it's life or death, and not painful life or painful death.
[19:06] <arko> some people are just better at controlling it, and others can disconnect from it (crazy folks who walk rope without a harness type people)
[19:06] <Willdude123> I'd do my best to save the plane, but if I died, I'd die.
[19:06] <arko> well yeah
[19:07] <arko> but it's the fear of freaking out when something is going on and not doing a good enough job "trying to save the plane"
[19:07] <Willdude123> Dies, died, will die.
[19:07] <Willdude123> Lives, lived, will live.
[19:07] <craag> I tend to freeze up in bad events, not good either..
[19:08] <arko> craag: exactly
[19:08] <arko> i had that happen twice to me
[19:08] <arko> one time i wasnt flying
[19:08] <arko> my boss at the time was
[19:08] <arko> we had an engine failure
[19:08] <Willdude123> arko: ??
[19:08] <arko> on take off
[19:08] <craag> ouch
[19:08] <Willdude123> Quote from bioshock infinite.
[19:09] <arko> he pitched the plane and landed it back on the runway
[19:09] <arko> very scary
[19:09] <arko> but he kept his cool
[19:09] <arko> that was the day i realized i cant be a good pilot because i shut down
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[19:10] <Willdude123> I would have no qualms about being put in a dangerous position or a difficult position such as a pilot's role.
[19:12] <staylo_> arko: You may not be giving yourself enough credit. If you 'shut down' because of fear of making the wrong choice, it's just a case of repetative training until you're comfortable with being able to make a decision and stick to it.
[19:12] <Willdude123> Because, if something happens, and you die, that's good. You've relieved yourself. If you save everyone, that's also good. If you are the only person to come out alive, that's a shame because you have to live thinking you could have saved everyone.
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[19:14] <mfa298_> being able to deal with things going wrong in a good way generally comes down to having plenty of experience.
[19:14] <craag> I think a good proportion of my problem is confidence. I'm too worried about doing something wrong.
[19:14] <craag> And experience helps in that.
[19:15] <mfa298_> simple example would be riding a bike. When you were learning you probably struggles to keep it balanced. Once experienced you can do all sorts of things, if it starts to go you reckognise the symptoms and know how to correct it
[19:15] <arko> staylo_: yeah, it gets expensive
[19:16] <arko> staylo_: also, you can simulate it all you want, have your flight instructor scare you
[19:16] <arko> but when the real things happens
[19:16] <arko> it hits you differently
[19:18] <staylo_> Well, when you're under instruction you know the instructor won't let you outside safety boundaries, so it's a different environment. But if you encounter a situation you don't have the experience to handle and hesitate, that's not a sign of something lacking in your character, it's just lack of experience.
[19:20] <Willdude123> mfa298_, I learnt to ride a bike when I was 10/11/12
[19:20] <Willdude123> I hate it.
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[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> hi S_Mark
[19:32] <mikestir> mfa298_: good audio from a nearby repeater on the pi with the tuner sample rate reduced. patch here http://pastie.org/8251092
[19:32] <mikestir> back later
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[19:35] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_aw
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[19:38] <LimeyJohnson> Does anyone include a barometer in their payload?
[19:39] <ibanezmatt13> I will be doing for one of my next payloads. I've seen a few do it
[19:39] <LimeyJohnson> Which sensor do you plan on using?
[19:40] <ibanezmatt13> Well I'm gonna use the BMP085 which does temperature and pressure together over i2c
[19:40] <ibanezmatt13> good for any microcontroller and very accurate
[19:41] <ibanezmatt13> Sparkfun do breakouts for it but I'm gonna be creating my own using just the chip itself
[19:41] <LimeyJohnson> My only problem with that one is its range. Only up to 9000 meters
[19:41] <ibanezmatt13> Ah you want higher...
[19:41] <LimeyJohnson> Don't know if I can get it... but looking for one
[19:42] <ibanezmatt13> In that case, I'm not sure of any others I'm afraid but there will be several people on here who probably know a bit more
[19:42] <ibanezmatt13> brb
[19:49] <chrisstubbs> My opinion of samsung is slowly going down the pan
[19:50] <chris_99> has anyone tried a 3D scanning system using a laser? i'm guessing that'd be very difficult to pull off
[19:50] <jcoxon> ping Upu
[19:50] <Upu> o7
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[19:55] <Willdude123> Hi Upu
[20:00] Nick change: KipK_aw -> Kipkool
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[20:01] <fsphil> pong jcoxon
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[20:30] <Nosferatu> hi
[20:31] <fsphil> ello
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[20:32] <Nosferatu> fsphil: i have a question about cusf predictor.
[20:32] <fsphil> fire away. I may not be able to help but someone else might
[20:33] <Nosferatu> ahh ok. not technical question, only if is permitted to use the api in a non charging iphine app ?
[20:35] <fsphil> ah, that's a question for DanielRichman
[20:37] <DanielRichman> one sec
[20:38] <Nosferatu> ok
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[20:52] <WillTablet> Hi
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[20:56] <DanielRichman> Nosferatu: ok - sure, as long as you say that the data is from the CUSF predictor (would it be possible to link to cusf.co.uk and predict.habhub.org?), but don't imply that you are CUSF, and include the disclaimer beginning "No guarantee is given for the accuracy..." on the about page (About link top right of predict.habhub.org).
[20:56] <DanielRichman> Also - note that the "API" is not an API, it's some private ajax pages. As such, they may disappear or change unexpectedly as we modify or upgrade the predictor.
[20:58] <Nosferatu> DanielRichman: ok, it is possible. before i start to develop this app, it is a must for me to get the permission first - done yet ;)
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[21:06] Nick change: Willdude123_ -> Willdude123
[21:06] <Willdude123> Hello people.
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[21:08] <Willdude123> Anyone around?
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[21:16] <ibanezmatt13> Evening
[21:16] <D001_> craag, book in advance on the train, i got £70 return first class from leeds to london
[21:17] <craag> D001_: Oh wow, thanks I'll look a bit harder.
[21:17] <D001_> craag, think i read a really old message from you lol
[21:17] <craag> Yep you did, but I remember!
[21:20] <Willdude123> Is it a good idea when designing a breakout board to add some sort of functionality for the NTX2 to transmit even when the flight controller is off? So then you can hunt the signal down if something goes wrong with the board.
[21:20] <ibanezmatt13> ping daveake
[21:21] <mfa298_> if you've got power to the ntx2 it's going to have a carrier so there's something to DF.
[21:21] <daveake> pug
[21:21] <Willdude123> Do many people put LEDs on their payload? I think you can get super bright LEDs that would be pretty good when looking for it.
[21:21] <daveake> n
[21:21] <ibanezmatt13> daveake: the predictions for Sunday are a lot better than Saturday
[21:21] <Willdude123> Hi daveake
[21:21] <ibanezmatt13> But if your doing dual NTX2, I can't do Sunday can I?
[21:21] <Willdude123> *you;re
[21:21] <daveake> I bagged Sunday so there :p
[21:21] <Willdude123> *you're
[21:22] <Willdude123> Lol
[21:22] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[21:22] <daveake> They'll change again
[21:22] <ibanezmatt13> I heard there were several launches on Sunday anyway/
[21:22] <daveake> Probably pretty full
[21:22] <Willdude123> daveake, Where are the predictions heading?
[21:22] <ibanezmatt13> Hmm, I'll keep checking
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[21:23] <Willdude123> Oh yeah he put me on his ignore list.
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[21:24] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13, Is there a footprint available for the NTX2
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[21:30] <bertrik> Upu: can you explain your varicode implementation a bit?
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[21:37] <Willdude123> Wow design link in eagle looks cool.
[21:39] <Willdude123> Where can I get an NTX2 and Ublox library file?
[21:39] <Babs> ping arko
[21:40] <daveake> "ping" would be a really poor choice for an IRC ID
[21:40] <fsphil> someone has it :)
[21:40] <wrea> Willdude123: https://github.com/Upuaut/Eagle-Libraries/
[21:41] <arko> Babs: sup
[21:41] <arko> daveake: haha
[21:41] <Babs> oo, ping daveake on this basis
[21:41] <Babs> prepare for some babs theory on what we discussed this morning, don't mock...
[21:42] <Babs> i ran a simple counter program with a print of the counter value and timer to the serial point. millis indicates it runs through loop every 12 milliseconds, so wants to print the counter value and timer 83 times a second
[21:42] <Babs> 9600 baud means 9600 bits are sent per second down the serial port We have the counter value as an int and the millis value as a long, say, of 2 and 4 bytes respectively Or equivalently (2+4)*8 = 48 bytes are sent down the serial port in each loop (minimum) So for a 9600 baud rate, this would enable the information to be sent down the serial port a maximum of 9600/48 = 200 times a second
[21:43] <Babs> As my program can loop only a maximum of 83 times a second, this limit will never be reached for this program example
[21:43] <Babs> The program I am running for my IMU runs through its loop every 52 milliseconds, so will run a maximum of 20 times a second
[21:43] <Babs> It prints 3 float values, each of 4 bytes in length
[21:43] <daveake> > 9600/48 = 200 times a second
[21:43] <daveake> wrong
[21:43] <daveake> Each byte is > 8 bits
[21:44] <daveake> 1 start bit 8 data 1 stop (probably)
[21:44] <Willdude123> daveake there was a guy in a channel (I can't remember which) with a guy called ping.
[21:44] <daveake> So you need (2+4)*10 = 60
[21:44] <daveake> So 9600/60
[21:44] <Willdude123> Oh I forgot, you're ignoring me.
[21:44] <Babs> damn. basis maths.
[21:45] <Babs> *basic even
[21:46] <daveake> Next .... how does the receiving end know what's being sent? I suggested a unique byte at the start and end of each packet
[21:46] <daveake> "unique" is tricky if it's random binary data
[21:46] <arko> perhaps even a counter so you know if you missed something?
[21:47] <daveake> good idea
[21:47] <Babs> I've incorporated that in the main program. I guess I was just seeing with a very simple program to see whether the limit was actually even approached.
[21:47] <arko> sorry i had to step away, crazy work getting in the way of irc
[21:47] <daveake> terrible
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[21:47] <Babs> awful. such basic work at NASA getting in the way of such advanced Babs problems.
[21:48] <Babs> ;-)
[21:48] <arko> lol
[21:48] <Babs> ermmm. why did our rover not work when it got there?
[21:48] <arko> lol
[21:48] <Babs> "Well, daveake and I were helping Babs with some basic arithmetic"
[21:48] <Babs> "ahh, ok"
[21:48] <daveake> 'cos it landed faster than Babs 2? :p
[21:49] <gonzo__> it ended up in a tree then?
[21:49] <arko> http://www.britishburnassociation.org/burns-units
[21:49] <Babs> not possible daveake. there are still scorch marks on the polystyrene and the impact crater had turned to glass
[21:49] <Babs> i need to re-run my figures
[21:50] <arko> daveakes math looks right
[21:50] <daveake> NASA really should ask me to land something on Mars. No need for a rover to find life; I'll just land a payload in a tree for them
[21:50] <bertrik> :D
[21:50] <Babs> My IMU program runs every 51 milliseconds, so 20 times ish a second.
[21:50] <arko> the only concern would be the compensating for the time between messages
[21:50] <arko> since its not a continuous datastream
[21:51] <arko> headline: "Daveake Discovers Trees on Mars"
[21:51] <arko> "I just can't get away from these damn things!" said Dave
[21:51] <daveake> No need for all that clever landing rocket stuff
[21:51] <fsphil> would probably get stuck in the greenbelt between earth and mars
[21:51] <gonzo__> trees on mars? is that a new bowie album?
[21:52] <arko> lol, just use a tree
[21:52] <fsphil> launch a tree?
[21:52] <fsphil> THAT'LL WORK!
[21:52] <arko> skycrane a tree in
[21:52] <arko> land in the tree from now on
[21:52] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[21:52] <Babs> it transfers 3 floats, each of 4 bytes in length, so could transmit up to (3*4*10) = 120, or 9600/120 = 80 times a second
[21:52] <daveake> They should have sent something that grows a big field of spongy material
[21:53] <daveake> Then all future flights land on that
[21:53] <daveake> They really should have asked me :p
[21:53] <fsphil> or a giant trampoline
[21:53] <daveake> Not too springy
[21:53] <fsphil> ah yes
[21:53] <Babs> (so i think), based on my factor of 4 (programming running 20 times a second, serial buffer could transfer the data 80 times a second) that I am probably OK and the serial buffer should never fill
[21:53] <fsphil> but the martian cats would love it
[21:54] <Babs> whaddya think?
[21:54] <arko> daveake: http://i.imgur.com/iWhaLcz.png
[21:54] <arko> im pitching that to the mission concepts group
[21:54] <Babs> that idea will take root with them i think
[21:55] <daveake> From little daveakes great trees will grow
[21:55] <Babs> (i am better at punning than coding) - babs, know your limits
[21:55] <fsphil> you lot are barking mad
[21:55] <gonzo__> thats it in a nutshell
[21:56] <Willdude123> What kind of header should I use for the board?
[21:56] <arko> im sure daveake would be very poplar if that succeeds
[21:56] <Babs> what do you think arko and daveake? ^ *looks up to his 4 times safety margin comment*
[21:56] <daveake> looks good
[21:56] <arko> Babs lol
[21:57] <arko> Babs: looks close enough
[21:57] <Willdude123> I know it's 0.1" spacing but what specific header type should I use?
[21:57] <arko> my guess would be a little slower than that as serial has start and stop times between each "3float,4byte" sequence
[21:57] <Babs> thanks arko and daveake. So the serial buffer will be safe i think and then its more a question of making sure that the data transfer process has integrity and timing.
[21:58] <arko> you got this
[21:58] <Babs> the program already uses quaternions and kalman filters effectively so that will keep eroomde happy.
[21:58] <arko> best way to find out is to do it ;)
[21:58] <arko> ohhh
[21:58] <Willdude123> Am I on everyone's ignore list now? Not just dave's?
[21:58] <Babs> i still think the best place for quaternions is an episode of Dr Who.
[21:59] <arko> Babs: if you need optimized Kalman Filters that use quaternions and not euler I can get you the library i wrote
[21:59] <arko> i got rid of floats
[21:59] <arko> made my own datatype
[21:59] <arko> works great on 8bit processors
[21:59] <arko> and i have one for 32 bit as well
[21:59] <Willdude123> What kind of header should I use for the board?
[21:59] <Babs> so it is quicker then arko?
[21:59] <arko> much
[21:59] <Babs> how many cycles a second?
[22:00] <arko> floats kill these things
[22:00] <arko> depends on the processor
[22:00] <Willdude123> Ping Upu
[22:00] <Willdude123> Nobody around to help then?
[22:00] <arko> but i got up to 100Hz on a Ti ARM chip
[22:00] <Babs> mine does 21 per second, albeit is to coding what Ikea is to quality furniture
[22:00] <arko> Willdude123: 2.54 mm header is standard
[22:01] <arko> Babs: thats not bad at all
[22:01] <arko> whats this for?
[22:01] <Willdude123> What library would I find that in?
[22:01] <Babs> mine is on an arduino. not sure how that chip speed compares
[22:01] <arko> Willdude123: eagle should have them, try searching for header
[22:01] <arko> Babs: oh that poor chip is going to hate you
[22:01] <Willdude123> K
[22:01] <Babs> looking at this arko http://www.x-io.co.uk/res/doc/madgwick_internal_report.pdf
[22:01] <fsphil> avr processors are not too bad, except for floating point stuff
[22:01] <arko> yeah
[22:01] <arko> avoid floats
[22:01] <arko> always
[22:01] <arko> unless
[22:02] <arko> your processor has a floating point unit
[22:02] <Babs> specifically section 2.4
[22:02] <Steve_2E0VET> if I have a value defined as char info[256] is there an easy way of clearing any data out of all elements
[22:02] <Willdude123> arko, It doesn't show parts from libraries you don't specifically tell it to use.
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[22:02] <Babs> the advantage i get from doing 100hz vs. my 20 is about 1 degree.
[22:02] <Willdude123> Which default lib should it be in?
[22:03] <arko> not sure Will, i think sparkfun has some
[22:03] <Babs> which is definitely worth it if i can get it, although i think for Mk 1 it should probably be good enough
[22:03] <arko> i thought it was default with eagle
[22:03] <fsphil> Steve_2E0VET: C strings end with a 0, so to make an empty string there you can just set the first character to 0
[22:03] <arko> Babs: this is for?
[22:03] <Willdude123> Importing all libs crashes eagle.
[22:03] <fsphil> info[0] = '\0'; -- something like this
[22:03] <fsphil> or even just: info[0] = 0; -- does the same thing
[22:03] <Steve_2E0VET> fsphil, thanks i'll give it a whirl
[22:04] <Babs> stage 1: i want to get an actively stabilised camera platform arko
[22:04] <arko> oh
[22:04] <arko> 20hz should be fine
[22:04] <Babs> stage 2: once i've got it horizontal, then combine it with a gps to generate a bearing that should enable the camera to focus on a fixed point on the ground
[22:04] <arko> 30Hz is probably more than enough
[22:04] <arko> ah very cool
[22:04] <Babs> the theory is very cool
[22:05] <arko> yeah, compass can be a great low pass filter
[22:05] <Babs> i predict the practice being a little more clunky
[22:05] <arko> indeed it is
[22:05] <arko> it always is
[22:05] <Willdude123> Right so how many pins am I gonna need? I'll need TX, GND, RX and VCC for the Ublox. And then just NTX2 TX.
[22:05] <Babs> but it would be good if i can get it going
[22:05] <arko> hah
[22:05] <Willdude123> So according to my calculations thats 5 pins.
[22:05] <Babs> i've ordered some brushless motors and some speed controllers and batteries, so stage 0 will be breaking my fingers with both this weekend
[22:05] <Willdude123> Oh and battery back up.
[22:06] <arko> Babs: no steppers?
[22:06] <Babs> binned steppers.
[22:07] <Babs> i looked on the internet, and saw everyone was doing it with brushless motors
[22:07] <Babs> so i followed the madness of crowds, and decided that they must all be right
[22:07] <Willdude123> How do I rename pins on a header individually? Clicking on it wants to selvect it as a group.
[22:07] <Babs> much like everyone piled into enron stock i would imagine.
[22:08] <Babs> buts its not only that arko, they look beautiful http://quadcopters.co.uk/iflight-gbm3506-130t-brushless-gimbal-motor-763-p.asp
[22:09] <arko> sweeet
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> Brushless motors are steppers.
[22:09] <Willdude123> It seems to be treating the header as one object. I want to name them individually.
[22:09] <Babs> agreed SpeedEvil.
[22:10] <arko> true, but i always imagined brushless to be fast spinning and precise while steppers are slow, high torque and precise
[22:10] <Babs> but prettier things work better surely right?
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:10] <arko> Babs: worked for Apple
[22:12] <Babs> arko: so what do we need with this then? We will be adjusting it 20 times a second, so we need it to be fast (brushless tick). Torque doesnt need to be high cos its not shifting much (brushless tick) and the rapid update rate means the precision doesn't need to be that good, as long as the underlying yaw, pitch and roll data has some integrity (which the kalman filter does)
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> This is unfortunately complex.
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> You need a microstepping driver of some sort. A speed controller will not work
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> At all.
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> (Unless you can reflash the firmware)
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[22:13] <Babs> In all seriousness, it is a difficult problem, and i think the basic thing should be to get it working, and then improve on it.
[22:13] <arko> oh, this is for a spin wheel
[22:13] <arko> err
[22:13] <arko> reaction wheel
[22:13] <arko> right?
[22:13] <arko> not actually moving the camera physically?
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> I thought it was a gimbal
[22:13] <Babs> its a gimbal
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> For a momentum wheeel - maybe
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[22:14] <Babs> i've seen someone drive a brushless motor with an ESC from an arduino using the servo library
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> You need a microstepping driver of some sort - and ideally some accurate position reporting divice.
[22:14] <arko> ^
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> Babs: yes - you're entirely missing the point.
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> That part is trivially easy.
[22:14] <Babs> hmm. this isn't a good sign.
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[22:15] <SpeedEvil> Spinning your camera at 3200RPM will work fine.
[22:15] <Babs> yes, not intending to do that.
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> And you will be able to smoothly vary the speed of spin.
[22:15] <arko> dc motor with an encoder feedback works, but what would be best is a stepper with encoder feedback
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> Controlling its position around 0 will not work at all
[22:16] <Babs> why not?
[22:16] <arko> brb
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> arko: well - you can skip the feedback some if you just apply adequate torque with a harmonic corrected drive
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> Babs: In short - because the controller is not designed to let you do it.
[22:16] <Babs> those are all words i vaguely understand ;-)
[22:16] <arko> well, you can drift a good bit over a long period in time
[22:16] <Babs> as in it isn't designed to switch direction quickly speedevil?
[22:16] <arko> so 0 wont be 0 again unless you had an absolute measurement feeding back
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> No.
[22:17] <Babs> ahhh. but.
[22:17] <SpeedEvil> arko: I meant you actively control the phase of a 3 phase signal, and count where you are.
[22:17] <SpeedEvil> arko: With the phase varying sufficiently slowly that you are confident it never 'loses step'
[22:17] <arko> but that's still blind
[22:17] <arko> oh true
[22:17] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[22:17] <Babs> arko. if the IMU is mounted on the camera, and say if (simplistically) it detects a negative angle it moves positive, and if it detects a positive it moves negative
[22:18] <Babs> then it is using the IMU as positional feedback
[22:18] <arko> but with enough external torque you can get offset quickly
[22:18] <arko> oh yeah
[22:18] <arko> the imu
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[22:18] <SpeedEvil> Babs: The controller requires the motor to move in order to get positional feedback - if it doesn't revolve it won't do things well.
[22:19] <Babs> (although i agree, at the moment i don't know whether the mapping software in the IMU is suited to going back and forth quickly)
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> In addition, the controller is designed to run full current into the motor.
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> You need to be running it at about a volt. Or it'll melt
[22:19] <arko> i gotta brb
[22:20] <arko> Babs that makes sense, you dont necessarly need encoder feedback then
[22:20] <arko> but it would help tighten the control loop
[22:20] <Babs> So how do these fellas work then? http://www.ndfotogear.com/servlet/the-2001/ATG-T2-dsh-CRP-Stability-PTZ/Detail
[22:21] <Babs> the easy solution (and one that is really achievable) is just to buy the pre made control board and link it directly into the brushless motors
[22:21] <Babs> i guess i thought i would give the home made solution a try to learn a bit about it
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> Picture is bad - it's unclear - they may be geared
[22:23] <chris_99> is it just me or does that look very expensive
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: The clue is the price
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> On the right
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:24] <Babs> there aren't gears on it i think http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/rctimer-brushless-gimbal-and-controller
[22:24] <Willdude123> http://imgur.com/r6S9VF6
[22:24] <Babs> (its a different one)
[22:24] <Willdude123> ^PCB schematic
[22:24] <Babs> the unknown really is how much the control board is dialling down voltage, speed, torque etc.
[22:24] <Babs> and thats the experimentation i have to do
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> It's not really hard to do it with the right controller.
[22:25] <Willdude123> ^ I think I still have a lot of progress to do.
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> But stock speed controllers won't.
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> Even ones designed for reversing
[22:25] <Willdude123> I may have moaned about not understanding the schematic when I did it on a breadboard but the wiki one is pretty helpful for designing PCBs.
[22:26] <Willdude123> So what do you guys think?
[22:26] <Babs> SpeedEvil - you're probably right, but it will be interesting to see where i get to
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> True
[22:26] <Babs> definitely not hooking any cameras up for now though....
[22:26] <Babs> ;-)
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> Babs: Be careful - if you exceed about 80C on the magnets - or 120Cish on the windings - bad things happen
[22:26] <Babs> celsius?
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> yes
[22:27] <Babs> i haven't had a bad DIY injury since i superglued my fingers together aged 10
[22:27] <Babs> i am definitely due another ;-)
[22:27] <Willdude123> Babs no the other temperature scale beginning with C
[22:28] <Willdude123> So nobody has an opinion of my wonderful schematic? http://imgur.com/r6S9VF6
[22:28] <Willdude123> I get it- nobody cares.
[22:29] Action: SpeedEvil lacks context.
[22:29] <Willdude123> Can anyone help with eagle here?
[22:29] <Willdude123> NTX2, making a breakout.
[22:29] <Willdude123> How do I name the headers individually?
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[22:31] <Babs> but i will watch out SpeedEvil - thanks for the pointers
[22:33] <Willdude123> Is there a standard resistor size?
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: Not really.
[22:34] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: There are many
[22:34] <SpeedEvil> All the way from tiny to ones you can't actually see really
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> https://github.com/gauravmc/hyperloop
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> lolling
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[22:45] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:45] <Willdude123> How can I avoid awkward name annoyances like here http://imgur.com/LmONM8F ?
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> i need to put together a proper paper with my hyperloop plans
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> stick on github etc
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[22:48] <Willdude123> Is there a find and replace for components?
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[22:49] <Laurenceb_> im playing with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choked_flow#Choking_in_change_of_cross_section_flow
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[22:49] <Laurenceb_> and http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/adiab.html
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> i dont get why theres all the fan complication, with a 0.6m^2 air duct around the capsule it can just push a plug of air with it
[22:51] <Laurenceb_> gives about 300Ndrag, which leads to about 0.03m/s^2 decell.. so whats the problem?!
[22:51] <Brew_> Evening all I'm still trying to get my Pi tracker happening I've got the GPS data now trying to output it to a text file for later TX anyone give me a few pointers on http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=407858#p407858
[22:51] <Laurenceb_> 50m/s decell over the journey... who cares right?
[22:52] <Willdude123> Laurenceb the daily mail does.
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[22:52] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I t does seem odd.
[22:53] <Willdude123> Laurenceb_ the daily mail will find anything that might possibly be a hinderance to it working perfectly and then moan about it being a waste of money.
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> also the plug of air doubles as a first stage air compressor
[22:55] <Laurenceb_> also, hovercraft skirt instead of air bearing faff
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> It leads to the 'what is it really for' conundrum
[22:55] <Laurenceb_> indeed...
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> but a sane version would be very cool
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> Quite.
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> also - for power i think you could use "plasma hot shoes"
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> That sounds like fun
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> an air bearing based power shoe using plasma discharge
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> would be possible to test in small scale vac chamber
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> That does seem like something that would have enough shiny.
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> as the pressure drops the power loss decreases a lot
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> you only lose 80V or so across a 1mm gap
[22:58] Action: SpeedEvil sighs at ebay.
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> run two rails, +10KV and -10Kv at either side of the tunnle
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> Yes, I entered 10 miles as a maximum distance. Of course this means that I want to see international results too.
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> heh
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Don't you get a massive arc?
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> no
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> 100v/mm x 1m = 100Kv
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> ah
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> of course it could arc through the capsule
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> On a related matter - have you come across voltage in a stable arc at atmospheric anywhere?
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> so needs to be in the air gap over the top of the capsule
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> no
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> I'm wondering what the length of a 10mA arc in air is
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> 10mA 100kV
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> theres a lot of power loss at atmospheric
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> and it tends to overheat the electrodes
[23:00] <Willdude123> Does anyone have time to look at my schematic and check it through?
[23:00] <Willdude123> I just wanna see if I've got the NTX2 bit right.
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> ive played with 4Kv, 50µA
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> got a few mm continuous
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I'm wondering about a monster PSU for fun purposes
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> but thats very anecdotal :P
[23:04] <WillTablet> Can someone just look at my sch file quickly and check it over?
[23:04] <WillTablet> Pleade
[23:04] <WillTablet> Please
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: I have not enough context.
[23:05] Action: Laurenceb_ zzz
[23:05] <WillTablet> I have made a schematic, which is for a ublox and ntx2 breakout,
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[23:05] <WillTablet> I have only designed the ntx2 part.
[23:05] <WillTablet> I know not it is correct.
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: yeah - I'd need to look up the relevant atasheets - and not doing that tonight.
[23:06] <WillTablet> The libraries should all be correct with the footprints.
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[23:07] <WillTablet> I haven't designed any of those but I suppose for resistors and stuff, you'd have to.
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[23:13] <WillTablet> Wow. I get 141ms ping- on myself!
[23:18] Nick change: Kipkool -> KipK_aw
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[23:22] <WillTablet> Jeez my internet is slow.
[23:22] <WillTablet> Allegedly 6mbps.
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[23:28] <mfa298_> Brew_: probably a bit too late to do much now but I think you'll struggle with that method
[23:29] <mfa298_> With the gps and ntx2 sharing the same port you might have issues with gpsd
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[23:33] <mfa298_> Also some of your kit list might have issues
[23:36] <WillTablet> mfa298_ I've started my board schematic. It's going slowly but quite well.
[23:38] <mfa298_> Whats the pupose of your board scematic ?
[23:39] <WillTablet> Just designing a breakout board.
[23:39] <WillTablet> For the ntx2 and ublox.
[23:39] <mfa298_> for ublox and ntx2 on the bbb ?
[23:39] <WillTablet> I haven't learnt the board design part but I plan to do that when I need it.
[23:39] <WillTablet> Yup
[23:40] <mfa298_> realistically you might be better off putting things on stripboard for the BBB
[23:40] <mfa298_> but as a learning exercise it could be a good start
[23:42] <WillTablet> Hmm. Why do you think so?
[23:43] <WillTablet> Argh
[23:43] <WillTablet> Androirc crashed
[23:43] <WillTablet> Isn't displaying text.
[23:43] <mfa298_> there's not much complexity and depending on where the connectors you're using are on the BBB it could be a larger board
[23:43] <WillTablet> So if you just said something I can't see it.
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[23:44] <WillTablet> Sorry did you say something?
[23:44] <mfa298_> there's not much complexity and depending on where the connectors you're using are on the BBB it could be a larger board
[23:44] <mfa298_> i said that
[23:44] <WillTablet> Thanks
[23:45] <WillTablet> Yeah, I suppose
[23:45] <WillTablet> PCBs are more fun.
[23:45] <WillTablet> And reliable, I've come to love and hate breadboards.
[23:46] <mfa298_> stripboard != breadboard
[23:46] <WillTablet> Hate them because they are so temperamental.
[23:46] <WillTablet> I know
[23:46] <WillTablet> Worried stripboard might be similar.
[23:46] <SpeedEvil> It's not
[23:47] <mfa298_> stripboard is effectivly breadboard but with solder, so you just pickup what you did onbreadboard and it should work
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> But it can be annoying if you don't pre-plan to a degree
[23:47] <WillTablet> I just prefer PCBs I guess. The idea of it is a bit less hack-y in my opinion.
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> hyes
[23:48] <mfa298_> stripboard is pcb it's just the tracks are in a set pattern
[23:48] <WillTablet> Also I could get a lot of experience from it.
[23:48] <mfa298_> as I said before:
[23:48] <mfa298_> 23:40 < mfa298_> but as a learning exercise it could be a good start
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[23:49] <WillTablet> Since I'm not actually flying one anytime soon, I'm inclined to go for PCBs so I can make more in the future.
[23:49] <mfa298_> but for ublox breakout, ntx2 and a couple of resistors I'd probablt go stripboard.
[23:49] <WillTablet> Idk
[23:49] <gonzo__> there is another version, I call patchboard. Like vero but with square pads on each hole. I use component legs to bridge the pads and making crude tracks
[23:49] <gonzo__> and you can use kynar wire for the tracks that won't go
[23:50] <WillTablet> mfa298_ ibanezmatt13 was using a bosrd
[23:50] <WillTablet> From Upu
[23:50] <WillTablet> Anyway
[23:50] <WillTablet> Here it is https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2toavmb8z6dmkvd/iPOtz8P3KY/board.sch
[23:52] <mfa298_> also remember pcb (if you're using smt components) will take a bit more skill to solder than standard through hole stuff. If you (or whoever is soldering) is struggling with through hole you'll probably have more issues with smt
[23:53] <WillTablet> There's always the possibility I could use through hole stuff. Might go with SMT to annoy my dad and get him back for not letting me solder.
[23:56] <WillTablet> Or find some easy-to solder smt resistors.
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[23:57] <WillTablet> Oh crap if I go with a PCB everyone's gonna be like 'you ignore good advice'
[23:59] <SpeedEvil> It's not a bad plan
[23:59] <mfa298_> using it as a way to learn eagle is fine. You're following the rules of keep it easy and do something you know
[23:59] <SpeedEvil> Worst case if you screwup you can probably fix it with bodgewires
[00:00] --- Tue Aug 20 2013