highaltitude.log.20130817

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[00:08] <WillTablet> Hi
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[06:19] <arko> another productive night
[06:19] <arko> i need beer
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[06:27] <wrea> lol
[06:31] <x-f> PYSY on the map, launching in an hour
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[07:12] <DoYouKnow> what's going on with the balloon?
[07:13] <DoYouKnow> oh cool
[07:13] <DoYouKnow> it's still going up
[07:14] <jarod> can someone paste that space... link again?
[07:14] <jarod> the map
[07:15] <DoYouKnow> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
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[07:16] <DoYouKnow> it's 10.6 celsius now
[07:16] <DoYouKnow> outside the balloon
[07:16] <jarod> too far from .nl :/
[07:16] <DoYouKnow> weather balloons are cool too.. they launch every day every 12 hours at 00 z and 12z
[07:17] <DoYouKnow> they go up until the temperature reaches 200 millibars
[07:17] <DoYouKnow> err
[07:17] <DoYouKnow> pressure
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[07:18] <DoYouKnow> like 36-40kft
[07:18] <DoYouKnow> or 12140 meters
[07:18] <DoYouKnow> where it's -70 C or so
[07:19] <DoYouKnow> or colder
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[07:21] <DoYouKnow> they actually probably go up much higher, but the data is only recorded up to a certain point. it's only required to 200 mb afaik
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[07:23] <PE2G> DoYouKnow: Here you can view what alts met-balloons reach: http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/europe.html
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[07:27] <DoYouKnow> cool, they reach 93,000 ft around here in Illinois
[07:28] <DoYouKnow> it's already getting warmer at that point
[07:28] <DoYouKnow> you're in the thermosphere
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[07:29] <DoYouKnow> err no
[07:29] <DoYouKnow> mid/upper stratosphere
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[07:57] <ibanezmatt13> Good Morn
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[08:04] <wrea> Morning
[08:05] Nick change: eroomde -> dia
[08:05] <dia> wrea
[08:05] Nick change: dia -> eroomde
[08:05] <ibanezmatt13> morning eroomde :)
[08:06] <eroomde> it is
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[08:07] <ibanezmatt13> 7 days to the launch of NORB
[08:07] <eroomde> nice
[08:07] <eroomde> excited?
[08:08] <daveake> Has Steve confirmed he'll be OK to come along?
[08:08] <daveake> I know he hurt his arm (probably piling up all those 3kg Hwoyees)
[08:08] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, Steve's confirmed, and more nervous at the moment :)
[08:09] <daveake> That's normal
[08:09] <ibanezmatt13> The only possible way this can fail is if the weather changes mid-flight
[08:09] <eroomde> that's a bold statement
[08:09] <ibanezmatt13> We have a backup tracker which won't fail :)
[08:09] <eroomde> don't upset the tab gods
[08:09] <eroomde> hab*
[08:09] <daveake> I see you're new to this :p
[08:10] <ibanezmatt13> haha, yes
[08:10] <daveake> There's an infinite number of ways it can go wrong
[08:10] <ibanezmatt13> a good solid pava from Upu, shouldnt fail
[08:10] <daveake> I'm still finding new ways to fail
[08:11] <ibanezmatt13> you've gotta be optimistic haven't you. Results day for me to next Thursday.
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[08:12] <eroomde> ASs?
[08:12] <ibanezmatt13> Nah, GCSEs
[08:12] <eroomde> can't keep track
[08:12] <eroomde> sorry
[08:13] <ibanezmatt13> nor can I :)
[08:13] <eroomde> guess how many people have asked me about my gcse results in the 10 years since i did them?
[08:13] <charolastra> why is 434.65MHz always choosen? i get a strong local signal on there :/
[08:13] <ibanezmatt13> how many?
[08:13] <daveake> none
[08:14] <eroomde> ntx2 was the radio of choice for ages and was 434.650 charolastra
[08:14] <eroomde> well 1 actually, i think uni asked
[08:14] <daveake> :)
[08:14] <ibanezmatt13> GCSEs are a waste of time anyway
[08:14] <eroomde> but that's cos you only have gcses and a handful of ASs at application time
[08:14] <eroomde> but since then, 0
[08:15] <ibanezmatt13> I've still got one more AS level subject to choose before next Friday :/
[08:15] <ibanezmatt13> Maths, Physics, Computin and....
[08:15] <eroomde> FURTHER MATHS
[08:15] <ibanezmatt13> no chance
[08:15] <ibanezmatt13> :
[08:15] <eroomde> y not?
[08:15] <charolastra> so you guys don't have strong pulses at that frequency?
[08:15] <mfa298> Electronics
[08:16] <eroomde> chemistry then
[08:16] <ibanezmatt13> So many people eroomde have said that they struggled with it; many of them were very clever and even had the work ethic. They just couldn't do it
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[08:16] <eroomde> but really, further maths
[08:16] <daveake> Further Maths will help more at Uni
[08:16] <eroomde> i don;t understand
[08:16] <daveake> Even if you do Electronics
[08:16] <ibanezmatt13> I considered chemistry, mfa298 they don't do electronics
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[08:16] <mfa298> although further maths is also a good choice (I wish I had done when I got to uni)
[08:16] <eroomde> you have built a tab flight computer while doing your gcses
[08:16] <eroomde> you can handle further maths
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[08:16] <daveake> Nah don't do chemistry
[08:16] <eroomde> any scientific degree you do will have much harder maths than further maths
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[08:17] <ibanezmatt13> surely not
[08:17] <eroomde> yes
[08:17] <eroomde> much
[08:17] <eroomde> further maths is barely scratching the surface
[08:17] <ibanezmatt13> in further maths they start talking about imaginary numbers such as i.
[08:17] <daveake> I did an electronics degree and for me the maths was the hardest part.
[08:18] <ibanezmatt13> and maths at uni is probably harder than that :)
[08:18] <eroomde> imaginary numbers are used everywhere
[08:18] <daveake> The electronics side was easy. I did do A level electronics and walked it as I'd been messing with electronics since age 9
[08:18] <eroomde> they're a basic tool for lots of things
[08:18] <eroomde> like electronics
[08:18] <ibanezmatt13> -1
[08:18] <daveake> So do the further maths as it'll be more useful at uni
[08:18] <mfa298> In my Engineering degree I think I did 4 maths modules, the first one pretty much covered Maths and Further Maths and was a self taught module
[08:18] <ibanezmatt13> :/
[08:19] <eroomde> i really urge you to do something pure like maths
[08:19] <ibanezmatt13> one sec...
[08:19] <eroomde> i'm now talking as someone who has done some admissions stuff at cam
[08:19] <ibanezmatt13> http://www.winstanley.ac.uk/images/stories/pdf/course_leaflets/maths_12.pdf
[08:19] <eroomde> too many people do soft a-levels and it needlessly closes off avenues to them
[08:20] <eroomde> they think you should do a-level law to read law (you should't)
[08:20] <ibanezmatt13> I think maths and physics aren't soft a levels as such
[08:20] <eroomde> or a-level economics to do economics (you shouldn't)
[08:20] <eroomde> or electronics to do electronics (again)
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[08:21] <eroomde> it's really all about the maths and physics for sciences. it's The Tool for thinking about problems
[08:21] <daveake> I don't know if it's changed, but the electronic A level I did was designed as an add-on to Physics. It didn't require a full 2-year course to do.
[08:21] <daveake> And it was way too easy
[08:21] <ibanezmatt13> I enjoyed physics at GCSE and found it not that hard; maths I had to work at but I started to find it easier after I got my A which I resat. I'm just not sure whether further maths would be too much of a big step.GCSE maths to alevel maths is hard
[08:22] <eroomde> maths is taught so badly
[08:22] <eroomde> it's really simple and really beautiful
[08:22] <eroomde> hmm
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[08:22] <eroomde> can i send you a book right now?
[08:22] <eroomde> i'm going to buy you a book on amazon
[08:22] <ibanezmatt13> I can buy a book, send me the link
[08:22] <eroomde> no, i'll get it for you
[08:22] <eroomde> my present
[08:22] <eroomde> pm me your address
[08:22] <daveake> ibanezmatt13 Well, my experience is that maths at Uni was a lot more scary than I was expecting. Probably that's 'cos mt brain is more aligned to applied maths than pure, but anyway the more preparation you can have for that, by doing more maths at school, the better IMO
[08:23] <eroomde> i totally agree with this^
[08:23] <ibanezmatt13> :O Wow, thank you soo much!. Don't know how to PM in this client
[08:23] <eroomde> you want to get more familiar with it as early as possible
[08:23] <eroomde> to at least understand the why if not the how
[08:23] <eroomde> email it to me then
[08:23] <eroomde> eddymoore at gmail dot com
[08:23] <ibanezmatt13> well, I do have the work ethic so I would do the work until I got it. It would just take a while to understand
[08:23] <ibanezmatt13> ok, thanks
[08:24] <mfa298> remember you've got a whole channel of people who are mostly engineering people that can potentially help with maths type things
[08:24] <eroomde> it will also teach you 'why' i exists!
[08:24] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I guess I should give it a go
[08:24] <eroomde> in my school there was definitely a grace period of a few weeks
[08:25] <eroomde> where your choices weren't set in stone
[08:25] <eroomde> awaiting address...
[08:25] <ibanezmatt13> sent
[08:25] <eroomde> btw the book for anyone else interested in '1089 and all that'
[08:26] <eroomde> it's a very well written intro to the why of maths
[08:26] <ibanezmatt13> Sounds good
[08:26] <eroomde> and it ends up explaining euler's formula
[08:26] <mfa298> In terms of A levels I did a similar set to you and wish I'd done Further Maths instead of Computing. The Computing A level I did was a joke.
[08:27] <ibanezmatt13> It is still a joke, but it's so easy
[08:27] <ibanezmatt13> from what I've seen
[08:27] <mikestir> that was my experience of A level computing as well
[08:27] <mikestir> and I did do further maths too
[08:27] <ibanezmatt13> I mean, it looks crap. Even in the second year I swear to god one of the questions is "list two disadvantages of online shopping." Honestly...
[08:27] <PE2G> First traces from PYSY here (east of NL)
[08:27] <eroomde> yeah. my one sole bit of advice (again wearing my admissions hat) is to stick to more traditional, 'hard' (using the media definition) a-levels. do the practical stuff as a hobby
[08:27] <eroomde> you can talk about it at your interview
[08:28] <mfa298> the downside of an easy A level is you get a load of people doing it to make up their A levels (which is what happened with me)
[08:28] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: also if you are entertaining the idea of going in a computing direction, can i recommend SICP as a good book to learn from?
[08:28] <daveake> btw at my school they tried really hard to stop me doing the extra maths, as they were short of teachers. 3 of us wanted to do it. The first kid was a year older and wanted an extra course to do. They told him to concentrate on his others. The second kid was basically told "you're too stupid". 2 down 1 to go. I stood firm, saying it was the best way to prepare for Uni. I ended up with a 1:1 pupul-teacher ratio.
[08:29] <ibanezmatt13> Wow
[08:29] <eroomde> e.g. for a law candidate we'd recommend maths (for logic) and history and a 3rd a-level, but not, say, law. Maths + History is probably a better prep
[08:29] <ibanezmatt13> 1:1 is definitely one of the better ways to be taught
[08:29] <eroomde> likewise economics. Maths, physics, history would be a good triplet
[08:30] <ibanezmatt13> So they look for a variety
[08:30] <ibanezmatt13> of different subjects
[08:30] <daveake> They wanted me to do chemistry. All the Uni electronics departments, where they wanted 3 A levels, wanted Physics/maths/maths. I pointed this out and that's how I got to win.
[08:31] <daveake> In the end I had offers of "2 F's" so meh, but I'm glad I stood firm.
[08:31] <mfa298> If your going down the computing route something like psycology could be an interesting alternative A Level (I did a bit of stuff like that at Uni related to AI stuff)
[08:31] <ibanezmatt13> daveake: this is why I don't want to do it :)
[08:31] <eroomde> no address yet
[08:31] <ibanezmatt13> I'll try again
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[08:31] <eroomde> cc it to ed@ael.co.uk
[08:31] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[08:32] <eroomde> now everyone will rush to our empty website
[08:32] <ibanezmatt13> I've not cc it, I missed an 'o'out
[08:32] <ibanezmatt13> should be at gmail now
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[08:33] <eroomde> got it
[08:33] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[08:33] <PE2G> First green PYSY decode at elev -0.5 deg, 542 km
[08:33] <PE2G> http://s11.postimg.org/f2k1sa8s3/Screen1025.jpg
[08:33] <ibanezmatt13> brb breakfast
[08:34] <PE2G> PYSY on 434.6508
[08:36] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: done
[08:36] <ibanezmatt13> thank you very much
[08:36] <eroomde> give it a read before you make your final decisions, if you can
[08:36] <ibanezmatt13> when will it be here? Or is it an online one?
[08:36] <eroomde> it should hopefully give you a better idea of what maths is and why. school does a really bad job
[08:36] <eroomde> i went for free delivery cos i'm cheap
[08:36] <eroomde> 3-5 days
[08:36] <eroomde> wed-fri?
[08:36] <ibanezmatt13> that's fine, thanks
[08:37] <ibanezmatt13> decision time = friday
[08:37] <eroomde> there's a good essay in the mean time called A Mathematician's Lament
[08:37] <eroomde> about how badly maths is taught in schools and how music would look if it was taught in the same way as maths
[08:37] <eroomde> which is quite persuasaive
[08:37] <ibanezmatt13> cool, I'll google it
[08:37] <eroomde> http://worrydream.com/refs/Lockhart-MathematiciansLament.pdf
[08:37] <ibanezmatt13> ah thanks
[08:38] <charolastra> PE2G: do you have an otherwise clean spectrum at that frequency?
[08:38] <eroomde> general question
[08:38] <eroomde> what is the proper name for those skinny klaxons?
[08:39] <eroomde> air raid style sinusoidal frequency sweep
[08:39] <PE2G> charolastra: No intereferende here whatsoever. 434.650 is mostly clean here in the weekends
[08:40] <PE2G> interference
[08:40] <charolastra> ok :(
[08:41] <PE2G> During weekdays, sometimes totally unusable though
[08:41] <eroomde> actually i don't want that
[08:41] <eroomde> i want the naval klaxon type things
[08:41] <eroomde> the AH-WOO-GA types
[08:44] <charolastra> no chance in hell: http://bor.hopto.org:81/pics/SDR/43465.jpg
[08:45] <PE2G> http://s24.postimg.org/yp3ak9i0l/Screen1026.jpg
[08:47] <PE2G> PYSY has a stable and strong signal, freq drifting upwards very slowly
[08:49] <PE2G> PYSY 434.6510
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: I really enjoyed the first few pages of that essay
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> very much
[08:49] Bo|2 (~Bo@87-51-52-114-static.dk.customer.tdc.net) joined #highaltitude.
[08:49] <eroomde> yeah
[08:49] <Bo|2> 678
[08:50] <DoYouKnow> what happened to those documents I found online some time back for the Realtek and/or Elonics?
[08:50] <Bo|2> upps
[08:50] <DoYouKnow> were they all taken down?
[08:50] Nick change: Bo|2 -> Bo_DK_Working
[08:50] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: i think there's a reason a lot of mathematicians are musical
[08:51] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I'm a musician too
[08:51] <ibanezmatt13> Love writing my own pieces as well as playing others
[08:51] <DoYouKnow> oops
[08:51] <DoYouKnow> wrong channel
[08:52] <mikestir> eroomde: use one of these :) http://www.victorysiren.com/x/index.htm
[08:52] <eroomde> nice
[08:52] <eroomde> that might be louder than the rocket engine
[08:52] <eroomde> no&. probably not
[08:53] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: ok so say I do choose maths, further maths, physics and computing (to drop after year 1) next Friday, what should I do during my time at college to understand and get through the exams? Anything in particular?
[08:53] <mikestir> there's a table of SPL at distance somewhere there - it really brings home how loud it is
[08:53] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: code will help
[08:53] <ibanezmatt13> really?
[08:53] <eroomde> try and code that you do in maths
[08:53] <eroomde> yep
[08:54] <eroomde> make a thing that can multiply matrices together
[08:54] <eroomde> when you learn about matrices
[08:54] <ibanezmatt13> Don't know what they are yet
[08:54] <eroomde> no not yet
[08:54] <eroomde> but you will
[08:54] <eroomde> and remember that everything is simple, it's just a question of find the right way to think about it
[08:54] <eroomde> we can help with that
[08:54] <ibanezmatt13> I mean, I looked (being optimistic) at second year maths and I looked at a few algorithms. With the coding I've done already, it was relatively easy to understand
[08:55] <cde> although, quantum thermodynamics is considered the less simple kind of simple
[08:55] <eroomde> well, it's difficult to intuit
[08:55] <eroomde> but nothing in a-level breaks your intuition as a human, particularly
[08:56] <ibanezmatt13> you realise that I'll probably be asking a lot of questions on here in the next 2 years :/
[08:56] <eroomde> yep
[08:56] <eroomde> but i really would tinker with stuff in code
[08:56] <cde> why just 2 years
[08:57] <ibanezmatt13> well, I was just thinking college but I guess, forever :)
[08:57] <eroomde> SICP - the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, will also help
[08:57] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I'll look into tat
[08:57] <ibanezmatt13> that*
[08:57] <eroomde> it's both an excellent introduction to computing, and also makes you think about maths
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[08:57] <eroomde> it's not an easy peasy book, but it was for many years The first computing course at MIT
[08:58] <ibanezmatt13> ah right
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[08:58] <eroomde> there are some good reviews of it on amazon
[08:58] Babs___ (~babs@cpc16-dals15-2-0-cust292.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[08:58] <eroomde> including by peter norvig who is the head of research at google and wrote a very good textbook on artificial intelligence
[08:58] <ibanezmatt13> that looks interesting too
[08:59] <ibanezmatt13> I never thought that this morning I'd be persuaded to change my mind on what I was certainly ruling out for a subject at college.
[08:59] <eroomde> :)
[08:59] <eroomde> you're in charge ultimately
[08:59] <Babs___> eroomde: You were right about mounting the IMU on the camera avoiding the need for 2 IMUs
[08:59] <Babs___> I'm very annoyed
[08:59] <eroomde> it's just i think people are often too easily put off, especially with things like maths, when it doesn;t have to be that way
[08:59] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: I know when I'm in doubt, I have to trust people of experience
[09:00] <eroomde> Babs___: we're helping ibanezmatt13 figure out what to do for his remaining AS level choice
[09:00] <eroomde> after maths, physics, computing
[09:00] <eroomde> we're saying Further Maths
[09:00] <Babs___> Hmmmm
[09:00] <Babs___> My school didn't offer further maths
[09:00] <Babs___> Which meant I was in loads of trouble when I went to uni
[09:01] <Babs___> ibanezmatt13: Do you think you will go to uni afterwards? If so what to study?
[09:01] <ibanezmatt13> I'm definitely going to uni, but I'm not fully certain what I'm doing
[09:01] <Babs___> My other question would be do you tend to finish your maths questions before everybody else?
[09:01] <cde> in doubt, choose lasers. chicks dig lasers
[09:01] <daveake> Babs___> My school didn't offer further maths
[09:01] <daveake> <Babs___> Which meant I was in loads of trouble when I went to uni
[09:01] <daveake> ^^ see that?
[09:01] <daveake> What I was saying earlier
[09:02] <Babs___> ?
[09:02] <eroomde> (he did maths at oxford)
[09:02] <ibanezmatt13> Babs___: I used to, but now I try to get it right
[09:02] <Babs___> Hmmm. Have to try and not be long winded about this
[09:02] <Babs___> But
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[09:02] <daveake> Babs___, I was pointing out that you're backing up what Ed and I have been telling ibanezmatt13 :)
[09:02] <mikestir> My uni course re-did a lot of the engineering-relevant further maths
[09:02] <mikestir> but it was still well worth having it at A-level anyway
[09:03] <cde> also lasers are f*cking cool. or at least they can cool things which is also cool
[09:03] <Babs___> One of the biggest wasted opportunities in my life was sitting around in maths lessons for 3/4 of the lessons having finished when in retrospect I could have just done a further maths a level at the same time
[09:03] <eroomde> familiarity helps a lot.
[09:03] <eroomde> i remember the first time i did a linear algebra course
[09:03] <mfa298> reading back slightly, matricies work really nicely with object orientated languages (My first bit of C++ code was doing a load of matrix manipulation)
[09:04] <eroomde> i didn't really udnerstant the what or why
[09:04] <ibanezmatt13> I just thought that further maths would be a risk of a bad grade, i.e, a risk of stopping me getting into good uni's. So then once I was in a good uniI could stick to something hard. That's definitely not the way to do it but that's how I was thinking before this mroning
[09:04] <ibanezmatt13> morning*
[09:04] <Babs___> I think the other issue with modern maths a levels is that they don't cover as wide a breadth of maths as they used to
[09:04] <eroomde> i was just there thinking WHAT THE F*** IS A 'LEFT NULL SPACE' AND WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT IT!?
[09:05] <Babs___> ibanezmatt13: For example, have you ever seen a matrix? (The maths rather than the keanu reeves version)
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[09:05] <ibanezmatt13> no Babs___
[09:05] <Babs___> Ok, it is truly a very basic bit of maths but very useful and has broad applicability
[09:06] <eroomde> that's not in normal a-level maths anymore
[09:06] <eroomde> but further maths
[09:06] <Babs___> They used to teach them at o level (the equivalent of gcses back in the day)
[09:06] <Babs___> Then they moved them to a level
[09:06] <ibanezmatt13> ah right
[09:06] <Babs___> Then they dropped them from a level to further maths
[09:06] <Babs___> So I went to uni to study maths never having seen a matrix
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[09:07] <mikestir> iirc they used to teach logs at GCSE, but no more
[09:07] <mikestir> and they are really useful
[09:07] <ibanezmatt13> by the way, are there any good books for understanding what's taught throughout a level further maths and maths? Like a textbook or revision book
[09:07] <Babs___> (This is like going to study English and not knowing any words longer than three syllables )
[09:07] <ibanezmatt13> now they're all really dumbed down
[09:07] <eroomde> hmm, not sure ibanezmatt13
[09:08] <eroomde> really the job of learning maths is to realise tat underneath this quantity of 'stuff' is something very simple and elegant
[09:08] <ibanezmatt13> there all like, "ooh you're brain must be fried, go bake a cake or something"
[09:08] <cde> ibanezmatt13: you can download that great science textbook collection. it's a bit huge (75G) but very thorough
[09:08] <eroomde> and you sort of have to play with it and prod it at different angles until it suddenly clicks
[09:08] <ibanezmatt13> might do cde
[09:08] <Babs___> You are really bright, and also I think you would probably find your maths teacher enjoying teaching you the more advanced stuff)
[09:08] <eroomde> there are good books for specific subjects
[09:08] <mfa298> probably some of the text books used for first year engineering maths at Uni cover similar stuff to A Level Maths + Further maths. but they're not always the easiest thing to read
[09:09] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298: yeah, I need something that explains things in the very simplest form
[09:09] <eroomde> one of the great things about the SICP book is that the exercises are *brilliant*
[09:09] <Babs___> I do think physics is the most real world useful subject though , and you are covering that which is good
[09:09] <eroomde> you are probably used to text books where you do the same thing 49 different times
[09:09] <eroomde> you might swell just be a performing monkey
[09:09] <eroomde> and they're there just to fill homework out
[09:10] <eroomde> del, every single exercise in SICP has some specific point to make. it's the one book where i'd say you should do all of them
[09:10] <eroomde> but they're all a real pleasure to do
[09:10] <eroomde> if challenging sometimes
[09:10] <Babs___> The only other thing I would say with regard to choice of a levels is that (people on here might disagree btw, it's just my view)
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[09:10] <Babs___> Maths , physics and computing is quite narrow
[09:11] <Babs___> Which is ok if you want to definitely go in that direction
[09:11] <Babs___> But might make it more difficult if you have a leaning towards the arts too
[09:11] <mclane> ping upu
[09:12] <ibanezmatt13> Babs___: I honestly can't see myself going down any other route to be honest. I do lots of music outside of school so, hmm
[09:12] <eroomde> i sort of agree with that too
[09:12] <mclane> can someone change the flight prediction of PYSY7?
[09:12] <Babs___> Ok! Then your choice is right
[09:12] <mikestir> do they still make you do general studies as well?
[09:12] <mclane> predicted burst is 40 km
[09:12] <ibanezmatt13> yes mikestir
[09:12] <mikestir> that was just an excuse for the teachers to have an extra free
[09:12] <mfa298> It could be worth looking through a few uni courses and see what sort of requirements they have. I think my computing degree (which also had a good dose of electronics) was mostly interested in Maths/Physics.
[09:12] <Babs___> I did (and do) a lot of art outside of school/work, it's good to keep that going
[09:13] <eroomde> the nice thing about maths/FM/phsyics is that there'll be a lot of overlap
[09:13] <Babs___> Eroomde speaks sense ibanezmatt13
[09:13] <eroomde> it's probably less work that doing 3 completely different a-levels
[09:13] <ibanezmatt13> I know he does :)
[09:13] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: I agree
[09:14] <Babs___> Plus it is really cool when you start seeing how each different bit fits together
[09:14] <Babs___> In one massive elegant structure
[09:14] <Babs___> And computing physics and maths will do that
[09:14] <eroomde> yeah
[09:14] <ibanezmatt13> Looks like FM is the one to take
[09:14] <eroomde> computers are great playgrounds for this sort of stuff
[09:14] <mfa298> Even Maths and Physics are likely to have some overlap (and hopefully the teachers have organised the courses so that the overlaps work together)
[09:14] <Babs___> I had a cr@p physics teacher but he used to set the most amazing problems (no use for passing the exam)
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[09:15] <Babs___> That actually help me more in business than any other subject
[09:15] <eroomde> agreed
[09:15] <eroomde> the problems in SICP are especially good in that respect
[09:15] <Babs___> Eg Richard , today I want you to tell me whether it is possible to swim out of the straits of Gibraltar
[09:15] <eroomde> it's free online btw
[09:15] <ibanezmatt13> I believe the teachers at the college I'm off to are really good. But, still good to have assistance here just in case :)
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[09:16] <Babs___> Excellent practice for breaking down a complex problem into the variables that actually affect it and you can estimate/work out
[09:16] <Babs___> Which is all business is
[09:16] <mfa298> I had some great A level physics teachers, a few of us did some of our own projects alongside the main physics a level with the help of the teachers.
[09:16] <Babs___> Well, that and politics of dealing with morons
[09:16] <eroomde> :)
[09:16] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html ?
[09:16] <eroomde> yes
[09:17] <eroomde> but i have a better formatted pdf
[09:17] <eroomde> will email it
[09:17] <ibanezmatt13> thank you :)
[09:17] <Babs___> ibanezmatt13: Lots of help for you here if you get stuck
[09:17] <Babs___> But I don't think you will
[09:17] <eroomde> if you want to try it, let me know. i'll tell you how to set up a 'scheme' environment to do the problems on
[09:17] <Babs___> Ps I have lots of admiration for the persistence on your tracker board
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[09:17] <Babs___> You learnt and developed that thing like a boss
[09:17] <Babs___> Congrats
[09:18] <ibanezmatt13> wow
[09:18] <ibanezmatt13> thank you
[09:18] <ibanezmatt13> I don't like to boast, but yeah I only heard of programming a year ago. And I only realised what a ground pour was a few weeks back :)
[09:18] <mclane> ping upu
[09:18] <Upu> hi mclane
[09:19] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: you've come very far quickly
[09:19] <eroomde> have confidence in your abilities
[09:19] <eroomde> they're good
[09:19] <ibanezmatt13> I hope such progress continues
[09:19] <mclane> hi upu, can you change the predicted burst for pysy 7 to 40 km? please?
[09:19] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3txfy0rx5k80b7n/sicp.pdf
[09:19] <ibanezmatt13> thanks
[09:19] <eroomde> sick better formatted ^
[09:19] <Upu> I can but i think the data is out of date
[09:19] <eroomde> sicp*
[09:20] <Upu> done mclane
[09:20] <d0wnl0rd> @UPU: data is fairly accurate
[09:20] <mclane> prediction so far was fairly ok
[09:20] <Upu> its 24 hours out of date I think
[09:20] <mclane> thanks upu
[09:20] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: the strength of it, by the way, is that it uses a language called 'scheme'. you might say 'but nobody uses that language so it's pointless' but actually it's probably the best decision the authors made
[09:21] <eroomde> http://www.amazon.com/review/R403HR4VL71K8
[09:21] <ibanezmatt13> never heard of it but, cool :)
[09:21] <Darkside> i don't really get functional programming languages
[09:21] <eroomde> read sick :)
[09:21] <Darkside> as i can't easily picture how they would be implemented in hardware
[09:22] <eroomde> also scheme isn't necessarily functional
[09:22] <eroomde> but i also disagree about how it maps onto hardware
[09:23] <eroomde> i find functional languages better for that
[09:23] <eroomde> they're more declarative, the define how something 'is'
[09:23] <eroomde> for me at least that maps better onto gates than more imperative, loopy constructions
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[09:26] <Babs___> Eroomde
[09:26] <eroomde> yes
[09:26] <Babs___> You are a connector guy
[09:26] <eroomde> :)
[09:26] <Darkside> expensive connector guy
[09:26] <Babs___> Which is the best for wire to wire if its something I am going to be plugging and unplugging a lot
[09:27] <Darkside> how much current
[09:27] <eroomde> how many wires and how much current?
[09:27] <eroomde> and what kind of environment?
[09:27] <Darkside> semisnap
[09:27] <Babs___> Going on a brushless motor, so I guess peak could be quite high
[09:27] <Babs___> If I am saying this correctly , the speed controller is 10A
[09:27] <Darkside> then why not use one of the existing model-aircraft power connectors
[09:27] <Darkside> or something like that
[09:28] <Babs___> Which I assume means that peak current going through it might be up to 10A
[09:28] <eroomde> yeah, rc hobby stuff might be the thing for that
[09:28] <Babs___> Oooo, Stuart Lee just walked past my front window
[09:28] <Babs___> Model cars and planes etc. prob easier to find too
[09:28] <eroomde> if it's going on a tab, you could just use something light and simple like a D
[09:29] <Babs___> Ok
[09:30] <Babs___> And you were right about mounting the imu on the camera
[09:30] <Babs___> Annoying
[09:30] <eroomde> i wear my annoyingness lightly
[09:30] <Babs___> I can't see how any of the commercially available gimbals do that , but given i will need to wrap the camera in polystyrene anyway
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[09:31] <Babs___> There will be plenty of space to have a little imu in there
[09:31] <Babs___> Cables channelled through the carbon fibre supports
[09:32] <Babs___> And I'm going brushless. I'm going to order some
[09:32] <eroomde> oh
[09:32] <Babs___> more stuff I don't understand later
[09:32] <eroomde> http://www.olliw.eu/2013/brushless-gimbal-direct-drive/
[09:33] <Babs___> There are loads of brushless gimbals with the software already developed out there
[09:33] <Babs___> It would be easier just to buy it
[09:33] <Babs___> But this is going to be my baptism of fire into programming so Im going to make it myself
[09:33] <eroomde> yes probs
[09:33] <eroomde> lol
[09:33] <eroomde> good
[09:33] <PE2G> PYSY burst at 35820 m
[09:33] <eroomde> you might like sick too
[09:34] <eroomde> er
[09:34] <eroomde> sicp
[09:34] <eroomde> you might see a thickish textbook and think 'i'm too old for this shit' but it is the best
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[09:35] <Babs___> I'm not that old
[09:35] <Babs___> ;-)
[09:35] <Babs___> Quick q - the motor needs to react to varying speeds of angular shift in the main gimbal
[09:36] <eroomde> well, i get annoyed that i don't have much time anymore to go off into the words to learn something new for large chunks of time at a time
[09:36] <Babs___> When you've done this before, is it simple enough to compare one reading on yaw say with the previous reading
[09:36] <eroomde> yes
[09:36] <eroomde> but
[09:36] <eroomde> so
[09:36] <eroomde> well
[09:36] <Babs___> And adjust the speed of the motor based on that?
[09:36] <eroomde> and other conjunctive words
[09:36] <eroomde> so yes, you need to know the speed
[09:36] <Babs___> Or do you have to take many and try and construct a curve of rate of speed change
[09:36] <eroomde> well
[09:36] <eroomde> hmm
[09:36] <eroomde> ok
[09:36] <Babs___> The latter being more
[09:37] <Babs___> Problematic
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[09:37] <Babs___> I think for really fast directional changes the latter is necessary
[09:37] <eroomde> so as you intuitively see, you get the derivative by approximation to the difference in positions divided by the time bwteen those positions were sampled
[09:37] <eroomde> but, that is noisy
[09:37] <eroomde> because positions estimates are noisy
[09:37] <eroomde> so the difference between them can often be very noisy
[09:37] <Babs___> But is a 2 point derivative sufficient?
[09:38] <eroomde> it depends on the noisy
[09:38] <eroomde> noise*
[09:38] <Babs___> Angular position estimates are noisy?
[09:38] <Babs___> On the imu?
[09:38] <eroomde> so you're saving can your do some kind filtering/moving average
[09:38] <eroomde> yes they are
[09:38] <Babs___> Hmmm
[09:38] <eroomde> all measurements are
[09:38] <Babs___> Moving average would work
[09:38] <eroomde> they might bee good enough hough
[09:38] <eroomde> it depends
[09:38] <eroomde> but yes, so you can filter the difference measurements
[09:38] <eroomde> but low pass filtering introduces phase lag
[09:38] <Babs___> Plus I would guess that a hab swinging is going to be fairly tame
[09:39] <Babs___> Vs quadcopter or something
[09:39] <Babs___> So I was figuring that once I have to motors going
[09:39] <eroomde> i.e. the filter introduces a delay between its input and its output
[09:39] <Babs___> (And I've got the servos going so it won't be much to get that further)
[09:39] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: Can't believe I got the first question of a further maths paper correct (it is the first one you do though. Further pure 1)
[09:40] <Babs___> Then it is more a case of extended testing and re calibrating
[09:40] <eroomde> that's ok to an extent but can often (too much phase lag in feedback) be the cause of instability
[09:40] <eroomde> well, there is another way
[09:40] <Babs___> I'll try with the two point and work from there I reckon
[09:40] <eroomde> there is an optimal algorithm for estimating the velocity from noisy position measurements
[09:40] <eroomde> without phase lag
[09:40] <eroomde> optimal assuming gaussian noise and linear dynamics
[09:40] <eroomde> wanna guess what it is?
[09:41] <iain_G4SGX> Can anyone answer a quick question on UKHAS tracking strings? I want to know if no valid GPS data is available, i the tracker sent the long and lat values as empty, ie. nothing between the commas, would NOT be interpreted as zero but as no data available? Please yes !
[09:42] <Babs___> Some Kalman esque thang?
[09:42] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: good! the thing to remember, is that i have been where you will be, seeing stuff for the first time and thinking 'what the f-ing f-ck is going on here& why am i even here'
[09:42] <eroomde> but now i find that stuff easy
[09:42] <eroomde> and it's just because i figured out what was actually going on. and that's the job of learning maths
[09:42] <eroomde> Babs___: yes
[09:42] <eroomde> not even kalman-esque
[09:42] <eroomde> pure kalman
[09:43] <eroomde> the kalman filter was designed for tracking applications like this
[09:43] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I'm just trying to work out how to get a denominator to the top line
[09:44] <ibanezmatt13> I have 7+root29 over 10 and the over 10 is annoying me
[09:44] <eroomde> *10?
[09:44] <ibanezmatt13> I thought that but we got taught that you could only do that if you multiply the other side of the equals sign by 10, is that correct?
[09:45] <ibanezmatt13> wait a minute
[09:45] <ibanezmatt13> ignore me
[09:45] <ibanezmatt13> [I've not done maths since June]
[09:45] <bertrik_frl> hm, was just a few minutes too late to get PYSY on our tracker :(
[09:46] <eroomde> Babs___: it was invented during the cold way to do things like track missile velocities from very noisy radar position estimates
[09:46] <eroomde> cold war*
[09:46] <eroomde> right, i need to get down to sussex
[09:46] <eroomde> bbl
[09:46] <Babs___> Laters
[09:46] <ibanezmatt13> bye!
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[10:21] <bertrik> is this the source code for dl-fldigi that is used for habs : https://github.com/jamescoxon/dl-fldigi ?
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[10:22] <iain_G4SGX> I beleive so, think you can fix the windows GPS problem ?
[10:22] <bertrik> I want to look into the THOR mode, I don't know about the windows GPS problem
[10:24] <SpeedEvil> How to take memorable wedding photos with a quadcopter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocqB6_y71xE#at=18
[10:24] <mfa298> iain_G4SGX: unfortunately I think it might take a while for someone to look at that issue. It looks like a bit of a faff to setup a build environment for testing windows builds (I did start looking a while ago)
[10:27] <mfa298> SpeedEvil: you're not doing aerial wedding photography properly unless you've stopped all local naval flying apart from one helicopter which is taking the pictures.
[10:27] <mfa298> (as was done when I lived in Somerset by the local Rear Admiral when he got married)
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> That does seem like it might be a _leeetle_ of an abuse of position.
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[10:29] <mfa298> Impressive wedding photos though.
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[10:30] <mfa298> and the harrier flight path did go pretty close to the church, might have been a bit embarrasing if the I do's got drowned out by a passing flight.
[10:31] <iain_G4SGX> ma298: Yes had a look also but WAY beyond me.. Got it working with Ubuntu fine though, and now gqrx is FCD+ supported dont need windoze.
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[10:32] <fsphil> having the fcd++ working in gqrx is brilliant
[10:32] <fsphil> no more faffing about with qthid
[10:32] <fsphil> though gqrx doesn't have a way to run of the LNA
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[10:33] <fsphil> a nearby payload can overload it with the LNA on
[10:34] <iain_G4SGX> Oh yes, hadn't noticed that
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[10:35] <fsphil> I could probably put the fcd in a shielded box
[10:35] <iain_G4SGX> Can I ask a quick telemetry question on the CRC? Does it run from the name (NOT including the **) up to but NOT including the last comma before the CRC ?
[10:35] <fsphil> and use a very crude antenna
[10:36] <fsphil> it's calculted from everything between, but not including, the $ and *
[10:36] <iain_G4SGX> ok, comma included, thanks
[10:37] <fsphil> you don't need a comma before the crc
[10:37] <iain_G4SGX> Should see my first appearance on the map later today for my payload, fingers crossed.
[10:37] <fsphil> the * is the indicator for that
[10:38] <iain_G4SGX> Cool. Could do with finishing, I dont eat or sleep much when on roll, been a few days now..
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[10:43] <bertrik> hm, dl-fldigi doesn't check the libjsoncpp dependency in configure
[10:44] <Hix> Found this today. If you are a registered Student, you can get a 1 year licence of Catia for nada. http://academy.3ds.com/software/students/catia-student-edition/
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[10:56] <cde> or use FreeCAD and contribute to free software ;) http://www.freecadweb.org/
[10:59] <bertrik> I'm having trouble compiling dl-fldigi, even though I install libjsoncpp-dev, I still get jsoncpp.h: No such file or directory
[11:00] <fsphil> something tells me the newer versions already include jsoncpp
[11:00] <fsphil> have you initialised the git submodules?
[11:01] <fsphil> yea it's included
[11:01] <fsphil> try running: git submodule update --init
[11:01] <bertrik> no, I didn't do that
[11:01] <fsphil> ah that'll be it
[11:02] <bertrik> thanks
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[11:02] <bertrik> yes, I think it works now
[11:04] <bertrik> I'll consider sending a patch for INSTALL
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[11:08] <SpeedEvil> http://reuters.tumblr.com/post/52795938459/man-survives-two-days-under-the-sea-in-a yow
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[11:27] <Hix> pretty intense and fortunate experience SpeedEvil
[11:27] <SpeedEvil> Well - fortunate in a rather limited sense. :)
[11:32] <Hix> one is better than none....
[11:33] <Hix> bet he gave the diver a fright after swimming through partially eaten bodies
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[12:14] <dutchtux> hoe
[12:16] <Hix> hey
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[12:37] <bertrik> is there an irc channel for dl-fldigi?
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> No
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> This is it.
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> dl-fldigi is basically a fork - for high altitude ballooning - based around 'our' server
[12:39] <chrisg7ogx> are any balloons flying in the UK this W/E?
[12:39] Action: SpeedEvil has no clue.
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> Well - there was one earlier today in germany
[12:41] <SpeedEvil> And, indeed, one in poland
[12:41] <chrisg7ogx> have an 11 ele beam and want to play!
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> me checks backscroll
[12:45] <SpeedEvil> A quick skim since 8AM reveals no discussion of a launch this weekend
[12:47] <mfa298_> I can't remember any uk flights being mentioned this weekend
[12:47] <mfa298_> lots next weekend though
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[12:50] <ibanezmatt13> afternoon
[12:52] <SpeedEvil> 'oon
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[13:29] <mclanemob> Pysy found but not recovered
[13:29] <Upu> tree ?
[13:30] <mclanemob> It is in a tree 20 m high
[13:30] <Upu> ouch
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[13:35] <Steve_2E0VET> anyone tried soldering with a cold soldering iorn
[13:35] <eroomde> yep
[13:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> Best to change Live & Neutral around, then you can spot weld with it ;-)
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[13:55] <Willdude123> Hey all
[13:56] <Willdude123> Is it me or is Mr. Serv missing from the channel?
[13:56] <Willdude123> Or has Chan Serv never been in here?
[13:59] <bertrik> THOR looks doable by just adapting the dl-fldigi thor transmit code
[14:00] <eroomde> he only does PMs
[14:00] <bertrik> It's C++ but so is arduino code
[14:00] <eroomde> bertrik, that's how we did dominoex
[14:00] <eroomde> ctrl-c, ctrl-v, 5 mins tidying around the edges
[14:00] <bertrik> do you send the start and end markers too?
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[14:06] <Willdude123> eroomde, been reading1089 and all that
[14:06] <Willdude123> I kinda know what e is now
[14:07] <eroomde> cool!
[14:07] <Willdude123> I'm thinking, it's Spivak vs Apostol in terms of textbooks.
[14:07] <eroomde> how are you finding the book generally?
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[14:08] <Willdude123> Well it's a bit difficult to understand in places, can be a bit rushed but is pretty good
[14:09] <eroomde> i have another book of his
[14:09] <eroomde> but you need a bit of maths to understand it
[14:09] <eroomde> called From Calculus to Chaos
[14:10] <eroomde> which takes a tour through calculus, differentital equaitons, nonlinear differential equations to chaotic systems, all in a fairly pacey but well-explined way
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[14:21] <Hix> Can anyone remember the figure babs quoted per unit volume for rapid prototyping?
[14:22] <Hix> as in the monetary figure.
[14:27] <mattbrejza> http://www.3dprint-uk.co.uk/
[14:28] <mattbrejza> 10p/cm3
[14:30] <Hix> cool cheers mattbrejza
[14:33] <eroomde> but note, that's for the rectoid volume that encloses the part
[14:33] <eroomde> not the volume of the part itself
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> I think shapeways charge for actual part volume
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[14:38] <Hix> hmm, yeah. I've got a part for my suspension that is pretty big dimensionally, but volume-wise its fairly low
[14:38] <eroomde> the impetus is to pack as much in as possible
[14:38] <eroomde> presumably saves them time
[14:39] <bertrik> eroomde: how did you do the delay for dominoex, just delay(), interrupt driven, ... ?
[14:40] <eroomde> interrupt
[14:40] <eroomde> well, actually, it used a delay function but one provided by a simple rtos
[14:40] <eroomde> which did other things during the delay
[14:40] <bertrik> ok, so you don't get an accumulated tone timing error, right?
[14:40] <eroomde> right
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[14:44] <Laurenceb_> yo eroomde
[14:45] <Laurenceb_> any good with OFDM modulation maths?
[14:45] <eroomde> yo
[14:45] <eroomde> never done it
[14:45] <eroomde> ever
[14:45] <Laurenceb_> :-(
[14:45] <eroomde> except maybe a long forgotten exam q
[14:45] <Laurenceb_> ive got a set of pilot tones, i want to minimize PAPR
[14:45] <Laurenceb_> i cant find an example of this simple case anywhere
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> It seems related to fourier to me
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[14:48] <Laurenceb_> so far i see that number of tones-2 gives the degrees of freedom
[14:49] <Laurenceb_> and that suggests peak=sqrt(carriers+2)
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[14:49] <Laurenceb_> and quick simulation matches that
[14:49] <Laurenceb_> but id like a proof
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[14:56] <Bo_DK_Working> I'm building a board to stack on top of a BB to make a fully automatic listing station
[14:56] <Bo_DK_Working> the idea is you set it on a level camrea triipod or whatever and press a button and then it will start to track baloons
[14:57] <craag> With an autotracking yagi?
[14:57] <Bo_DK_Working> the idea is also that it will have a 3G dongle or other internet connection and you can remote control it
[14:57] <Bo_DK_Working> not limited to one listning device but i guess as many you like
[14:58] <Bo_DK_Working> yep... the yagi will be mounted on a setup that allows servos to move it
[14:58] <Bo_DK_Working> have a few links somewhere on platform
[14:59] <Bo_DK_Working> i also want to share it so others can use it... but the BIG q is what others would expect from such a thing
[14:59] <craag> Cool, what are you pllaning to use for RTTY decoding?
[14:59] <Bo_DK_Working> a DVB-T dongle.... and SDR
[14:59] <craag> Yep, but what software to actually decode the RTTY?
[15:00] <Bo_DK_Working> not sure whats its called but made by mikestir
[15:00] <craag> Ah ok his web-controlled sdr rx
[15:00] <mikestir> i'd better get my finger out and finish it
[15:00] <mikestir> lol
[15:01] <Bo_DK_Working> craag: spot on
[15:01] <mikestir> I'm working on it at the minute actually. Made some big speed ups
[15:01] <Bo_DK_Working> :-D
[15:01] <Bo_DK_Working> but the big Q.... what would others expect from such a system?
[15:01] <Bo_DK_Working> so far the board has:
[15:02] <Bo_DK_Working> compas so it knows what direction its pointing at
[15:02] <Bo_DK_Working> gps so it knows where it is and can figure where to point yagi
[15:02] <craag> For something like that I'd want complete autonomy. Just some way of setting the payload to track and the dial freq and leave it.
[15:02] <Bo_DK_Working> curcuit for charging batterys
[15:02] <craag> Could get the dial freq from habitat
[15:03] <Bo_DK_Working> 4 port usb hub
[15:03] <craag> But with an RTL-SDR, the dial freq isn't going to be accurate, so you'd need to tune it.
[15:03] <Bo_DK_Working> 4 servo ports
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[15:03] <Bo_DK_Working> mikestir: said it would be overkill to have solar panels tracking the sun.. but they are easy to delete
[15:03] <mikestir> craag: does habitat have the dial freq in the db? that (and the RTTY settings) often seem to require asking in here
[15:03] <Bo_DK_Working> and can always not put bits on
[15:04] <craag> mikestir: There's some early support for uploading it in dl-fldigi, not sure it's in the release version yet though.
[15:04] <mattbrejza> i think new versions of fldigi with a rig attached send dial back as metadata
[15:04] <mikestir> is the nominal freq in the payload doc?
[15:04] <Bo_DK_Working> but thats basicly where i'm hardware vise now
[15:05] <mattbrejza> yea
[15:05] <mikestir> because there's an obvious chicken/egg issue there
[15:05] <mikestir> ok
[15:05] <craag> mikestir: sometimes... but it is often inaccurate
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[15:05] <Bo_DK_Working> hmmmmmm
[15:05] <mattbrejza> well with a SDR and lots of BW less of an issue?
[15:05] <Bo_DK_Working> stupid q... but could you add some auto tune once its locked?
[15:06] <craag> mattbrejza: yep
[15:06] <iain_G4SGX> OK, I've got Fldigi finally decoding my payload, all green, but its not on the map and the lon/lat & time fields are empty.. Any ideas?
[15:06] <mattbrejza> you can have 100kHz either side and look for it
[15:06] <Bo_DK_Working> could add a 2 line cd to choose what to track
[15:06] <Bo_DK_Working> a few buttons etc
[15:06] <craag> yes please matt! :P
[15:07] <mattbrejza> iain_G4SGX: 'No configuration doc for 'SNARF' found
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[15:07] <mattbrejza> '
[15:07] <chrisstubbs> iain_G4SGX, spacenear.us will only display the payload if it has a valid fix (which you probably set up in your flight doc to check the sats field)
[15:07] <chrisstubbs> Ah there we go
[15:08] <mfa298_> Bo_DK_Working: having a variation of your system that could go in a car with an omni antenna but display bearing and distance on an lcd could be an interesting variation.
[15:08] <craag> ^^ yep that's what I was thinking
[15:08] <Bo_DK_Working> mfa298: hehe i plan to make it also mount able on the roof of car
[15:08] <mattbrejza> tbh should probably add that to the app
[15:08] <craag> yagis aren't often required for tracking while chasing
[15:08] <iain_G4SGX> So i have to make a payload doc? thought i had one.
[15:08] <mattbrejza> it can go on the list...
[15:09] <Bo_DK_Working> mfa298: the usb hub i have put on is mainly to allow 3G donlge to be upright
[15:09] <mattbrejza> iain_G4SGX: there is one for SNARF1/2/3 but not SNARF
[15:09] <iain_G4SGX> ok cool
[15:10] <Bo_DK_Working> could have gotten a made usb hub but had allready most of it on schematic
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[15:10] <craag> Just having a box that you plug the magmount into and it does the SDR, RTTY drift tuning, and upload with a status LCD would be fantastic by itself.
[15:10] <Bo_DK_Working> craag: was about to take notes
[15:10] <ibanezmatt13> Quick maths question: http://filestore.aqa.org.uk/subjects/AQA-MPC1-W-QP-JUN11.PDF Question 1bi. I know the method I should use but I keep getting the incorrect answer
[15:11] <Bo_DK_Working> WILL ADD this to idea list:
[15:11] <ibanezmatt13> in fact, neermind :)
[15:11] <ibanezmatt13> never
[15:11] <Bo_DK_Working> lcd and 4-5 knobs so user can select payload to track
[15:11] <Bo_DK_Working> auto tune if possible
[15:11] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13, sure?
[15:12] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: I got it
[15:12] <eroomde> cool
[15:12] <ibanezmatt13> well, only because I did it in another form
[15:12] <Bo_DK_Working> please pm with further ideas or Q.... either to me or mikestir
[15:12] <Bo_DK_Working> will create a goggle doc for the ideas etc
[15:13] <Bo_DK_Working> anyone want to be added to edit rights let me know...
[15:13] <Bo_DK_Working> BUT BUT
[15:13] <craag> Bo_DK_Working: If you've got a GPS in there, might as well do chase car position upload as well :P
[15:14] <Bo_DK_Working> please do not simple remove things... we are many that have ideas etc
[15:14] <Bo_DK_Working> craa
[15:14] <Bo_DK_Working> craag: it has
[15:14] <iain_G4SGX> Hmmm. Somalia, thats not right.. lol
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[15:14] <Bo_DK_Working> thou i poke arround if it should be onboard (ublox) or a usb gps thing
[15:15] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde:, there's a line 7x+3y=13. Then there's another line, parallel to it that passes through (-1,3). I must work out an equation for that line. Now I can do it in the form 7x+3y=13 by substituting the x and y coordinates in no problem, but I can usually do it in the form y=mx+c. I try it in that form, I don't get the answer
[15:15] <eroomde> i'd have done it in the way you usually do it
[15:15] <eroomde> that must give you the right answer
[15:15] <eroomde> must do
[15:16] <ibanezmatt13> So, y=-7/3x+c
[15:16] <ibanezmatt13> sub the coordinates
[15:16] <craag> Bo_DK_Working: I'd prefer it to be all in one with integrated GPS, ublox are good enough to work well in the box.
[15:16] <ibanezmatt13> 3 = -7/3(-1)+c
[15:16] <ibanezmatt13> ^^ this bit
[15:16] <craag> Less trailing wires = better.
[15:17] <craag> Oh you may want to check it'll work in the box with the BBB though, I think Willdude123 has had some issues.
[15:17] <Bo_DK_Working> e123??
[15:17] <iain_G4SGX> Geez i got too many payloads, is it impossible to delete them? Not sure which one to edit as there are copies
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[15:18] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: I'm trying to get c from this: 3 = -7/3(-1)+c
[15:18] <eroomde> uhuh
[15:18] <Bo_DK_Working> craag: so the BB might have issues with the ublox?
[15:18] <ibanezmatt13> why I can't get this I do not know. I get it in the other form
[15:18] <eroomde> c = 2/3?
[15:18] <ibanezmatt13> yes it does
[15:18] <craag> Bo_DK_Working: Possibly, interference from the BB circuits jamming nearby GPS.
[15:18] <craag> Happens with some cameras, so is a possibility.
[15:19] <craag> But no-one else has tried the BBB yet, so we don't know for sure!
[15:19] <ibanezmatt13> did you just do it in the form y=mx+c?
[15:19] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde:
[15:19] <eroomde> no i just did it from what you just wrote
[15:19] <eroomde> -7/3(-1) = 7/3
[15:19] <Bo_DK_Working> craag: will add it to list
[15:19] <craag> Bo_DK_Working: If so, then one of the magmount GPS units you can get with a USB/RS232 lead would work instead.
[15:20] <eroomde> 3 = 7/3 + c
[15:20] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah so I did: 3=7/3+c
[15:20] <eroomde> 3 - 7/3 = c
[15:20] <ibanezmatt13> aaah
[15:20] <eroomde> 2/3 = c
[15:20] <Bo_DK_Working> craag: that was my fallback option
[15:20] <ibanezmatt13> what a numpty
[15:20] <iain_G4SGX> YAY ! Snarf is born..
[15:20] <ibanezmatt13> good job I'm remembering all this before I start :/
[15:20] <eroomde> :)
[15:20] <craag> Cool stuff. I think the hardest bit would be the whole autotuning bit.
[15:20] <craag> But that would also be the most valuable IMO.
[15:21] <Bo_DK_Working> craag: plan was plastic box with clear lid
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[15:21] <Bo_DK_Working> lcd under there... also 3g dongle so you can see network status
[15:21] <Bo_DK_Working> and in lid or some other place 4-5 buttons
[15:22] <mikestir> craag: I've just been thinking about how autotune might work
[15:22] <mikestir> given no lock at all
[15:22] <mikestir> I wonder if it would be possible to correlate on the encoded payload callsign
[15:22] <Bo_DK_Working> and a way to via the usb cable for gps in to box in water proof way
[15:22] <craag> mikestir: Matt's java decoder works well.
[15:22] <craag> He's got the source up on github I think.
[15:23] <mikestir> does that lock on automatically or just track?
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[15:23] <mattbrejza> auto
[15:23] <craag> locks on automaticall
[15:23] <mattbrejza> and then AFC
[15:23] <Bo_DK_Working> mikestir: ok if i add you to google doc with edit rights?
[15:23] <mattbrejza> auto shift
[15:23] <mikestir> Bo_DK_Working: sure
[15:23] <mikestir> mattbrejza: craag: I'll take a look at that then when I get on to the decoders
[15:24] <mikestir> the work I'm doing at the minute will actually make the channel filter work properly for SSB, then I can think about doing rtty
[15:24] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[15:25] <Bo_DK_Working> BTW.... can an airport decode what comes from the payload?
[15:25] <mattbrejza> mikestir: you dont need to go input -> SSB -> demod
[15:25] <mattbrejza> you can do input -> demod
[15:25] <Bo_DK_Working> i'm in the process of write an application for a permit
[15:25] <mattbrejza> just needs complex mixers rather than regular ones
[15:25] <eroomde> Bo_DK_Working, probably not
[15:25] <Bo_DK_Working> and they ask for either SSR code or NDB freq
[15:25] <mikestir> mattbrejza: yes I know, but the ssb might still be desirable for audio feedback
[15:26] <eroomde> unless they have someone on the ukhas mailing list working for them
[15:26] <mikestir> it's a flowgraph anyway, so it can be plumbed as required
[15:26] <Bo_DK_Working> thou GPS is now a valid option
[15:26] <mattbrejza> i know, but you might want to go direct for the actual decoding
[15:26] <Bo_DK_Working> so far i have just linked to spacenearus
[15:26] <Bo_DK_Working> all data there anyway
[15:27] <mikestir> that would be a minor change to the structure, which would currently assume decoders are fed real samples
[15:27] <mikestir> it's complex up until the demodulator though
[15:27] <mikestir> it would really just require an option to hook decoders in after downconversion/decimation and before the demod
[15:28] <mattbrejza> i cant see why you as a user would want to change it thougj
[15:28] <mikestir> no I mean an option from an API perspective, not a user option
[15:29] <mattbrejza> right
[15:31] <LeoBodnar> Bo_DK_Working Traffic controllers?
[15:31] <Bo_DK_Working> LeoBodnar: yeahhh i guess thats why they ask
[15:31] <LeoBodnar> What do they ask?
[15:31] <Bo_DK_Working> LeoBodnar: ssr code or ndb freq
[15:32] <Bo_DK_Working> let me check.... 1 min
[15:32] <LeoBodnar> SSR code is Mode-C squawk
[15:32] <LeoBodnar> You don't fly transponders I hope?!
[15:33] <Bo_DK_Working> hehe no...
[15:33] <Bo_DK_Working> the other is NDB freq as i wrote
[15:33] <LeoBodnar> You can't TX on a aeronautical freq without at least PPL or when supervised by instructor
[15:33] <Bo_DK_Working> they just ask for it... and pdf with rules are old... before gps came
[15:34] <Bo_DK_Working> so i think i will just link to spacenear.us
[15:34] <Bo_DK_Working> have the data needed
[15:34] <mattbrejza> anyone know what the channel capacity for FSK should look like?
[15:34] <mikestir> I thought non-directional beacons were ground based?!
[15:34] <LeoBodnar> Sure
[15:34] <LeoBodnar> It's just an AM station in effect
[15:35] <mikestir> that they were asking for SSR code _or_ NDB freq seemed a bit odd, like they were interchangeable
[15:35] <eroomde> i'm sure i speak for everyone whose ever worked on habhub, spacenear, and the predictor when i say that the whole ecosystem is used entirely at your own risk, Bo_DK_Working , and is probably not an officially guaranteed thing for use in governmental forms
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[15:35] <eroomde> who's*
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[15:35] <Bo_DK_Working> eroomde: they accept gps data
[15:36] <eroomde> orthogonal to what i'm saying
[15:36] <LeoBodnar> Maybe they were asking for the code of the radar itself in case you were building one
[15:36] <Bo_DK_Working> and i assume that info from spacenear.us is accurate... or as accurate as the payload gives
[15:36] <eroomde> it should be
[15:37] <eroomde> but there are no guarantees it'll even be available during the flight
[15:37] <eroomde> it very probably will
[15:37] <eroomde> but it's not something to which anyone wants any liability attached
[15:37] <Bo_DK_Working> well nothing is 100%
[15:37] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: if I have -x = 10, x would be -10 right?
[15:38] <eroomde> the key to remember is an equation remains balanced if you do the same thing to both sides
[15:38] <Bo_DK_Working> even if i had a display here it could be wrong
[15:38] <eroomde> imagine a pair of scales
[15:38] <eroomde> with some stuff in them
[15:38] <eroomde> 1kg of lead and 1kg of water
[15:38] <eroomde> they're balanced
[15:39] <ibanezmatt13> right
[15:39] <eroomde> you could add a pig to both sides, they'd still be balanced
[15:39] <eroomde> or add a jet engine to both sides, they'd still be balanced
[15:39] <eroomde> so
[15:39] <eroomde> if you want to find x and you have -x = 10
[15:39] <eroomde> you think, 'well, i can get from -x to x by multiplying by -1'
[15:39] <Bo_DK_Working> eroomde: even a aircraft transponder could be wrong or fail
[15:39] <ibanezmatt13> aaah
[15:39] <eroomde> so as long as you do that - multiply by -1 - to both sides, then you're fine
[15:39] <ibanezmatt13> of course, thanks
[15:39] <LeoBodnar> All the time Bo_DK_Working but there are backup procedures for that
[15:40] <eroomde> so yes, -x = 10 is the same as x = -10
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[15:40] <Bo_DK_Working> but i think its accurate enough for me....
[15:40] <iain_G4SGX> Well I am now a very happy chappy. My first payload software working fine, so far. A Few error handlings to add though. Total program size, 1.2K so far, 126.8K to play with !
[15:41] <eroomde> if you have 'x + 2/3 = 4', you think, 'well i can get x on its own by subtracting 2/3', and then you have to do the identical thing to the other side - subtract 2/3 - to keep the equation balanced
[15:41] <Bo_DK_Working> eroomde: got it
[15:42] <Bo_DK_Working> eroomde: if it was pointed at me
[15:42] <eroomde> Bo_DK_Working, sorry no, ibanezmatt13 :)
[15:42] <Bo_DK_Working> hehehe
[15:42] <eroomde> he's beginning his adventures in algebra
[15:42] <LeoBodnar> Bo_DK_Working: air traffic can use DF to roughly estimate your vector in case of transponder failures
[15:42] <ibanezmatt13> haha, yeah
[15:43] <LeoBodnar> They are quite good
[15:43] <eroomde> Bo_DK_Working, at you, i just meant to say that please don't say to air traffic control 'you can rely on spacenear.us', we don't want them using it as the basis to start moving planes full of people around!
[15:43] <LeoBodnar> 1-2 degrees accuracy after few seconds keying a mike
[15:43] <eroomde> it's just meant to help us out
[15:44] <Bo_DK_Working> eroomde will not... just have to figure some what to present the gps info to them
[15:44] <eroomde> cool
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[15:45] <mfa298_> to backup what eroomde said, there has been at least one instance in the last year that spacenear.us didn't work during a flight due to the load on it (although it has been upgraded since then so hopefully that won't happen again for a while)
[15:45] <Bo_DK_Working> https://www.dropbox.com/s/446k09vzkhifqso/hab.sch
[15:45] <Bo_DK_Working> thats the schemaic so far
[15:46] <mattbrejza> its generally far more helpful for a .png / .pdf
[15:46] <mattbrejza> also more people will look at it
[15:47] <Bo_DK_Working> can do a pdf
[15:47] <eroomde> do you want feedback?
[15:48] <Bo_DK_Working> thou eagle files allow people to play with it
[15:48] <Bo_DK_Working> yes please
[15:48] <eroomde> i think a lot of what immediately leaps at me is due to it not being finished
[15:48] <eroomde> but
[15:48] <eroomde> decoupling cap on the gps vcc input - add one
[15:48] <Bo_DK_Working> its the schematic only
[15:48] <eroomde> HMC is not properly connected up
[15:48] <Bo_DK_Working> sec
[15:48] <eroomde> eg no ground
[15:48] <Bo_DK_Working> HMC??? removed that one
[15:48] <Bo_DK_Working> and just uploaded new file
[15:48] <Bo_DK_Working> hmmm
[15:49] <eroomde> ah ok
[15:49] <LeoBodnar> Bo_DK_Working: why do you need 5 USB ports?
[15:49] <eroomde> it's still there
[15:49] <Bo_DK_Working> 4
[15:49] <eroomde> the HMC has a bunch of connections missing from it
[15:49] <Bo_DK_Working> one upstream
[15:50] <Bo_DK_Working> let me check
[15:50] <Bo_DK_Working> there should be one HMC
[15:50] <eroomde> solar charging circuit's op-amp has an unlabelled vcc
[15:50] <Bo_DK_Working> one=NO
[15:50] <eroomde> though it does have a name
[15:51] <eroomde> the solar charge circuit will dump excess power overboard as heat through the mosfet
[15:51] <eroomde> ah but this is ground isn't it
[15:51] <eroomde> so i guess you're not so bothered about efficiency
[15:51] <Bo_DK_Working> yes... this is for the tracker at ground
[15:51] <Bo_DK_Working> but its just s schematic i took from
[15:52] <Bo_DK_Working> i relly want it to put as much juice in battery as possible
[15:52] <Bo_DK_Working> working on what happended at dropbox
[15:52] <mikestir> Bo_DK_Working: the buck converters have the catch diodes in the wrong place
[15:52] <LeoBodnar> 4 ports USB host controller on atmega are you serious?
[15:53] <mikestir> and although FB is connected to the output by name, it should be made clear in the schematic in my opinion
[15:53] <Bo_DK_Working> LeoBodnar: atmega??????
[15:53] <eroomde> infact that solar charging circuit looks wierd to me
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> The chip does not have a name
[15:53] <eroomde> you have you feedback going to the noniverting input
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> Is it a hub chip?
[15:53] <Bo_DK_Working> LeoBodnar: yes
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> Ok then
[15:53] <Bo_DK_Working> hmmm
[15:54] <Bo_DK_Working> dropbox
[15:54] <eroomde> did you say you'd copied that circuit (solar charge) from somewhere?
[15:54] <Bo_DK_Working> will have to verify whats there
[15:54] <eroomde> if so, where?
[15:54] <Bo_DK_Working> eroomde: yes... will have to remember from where
[15:54] <eroomde> good idea to keep a note of these things...
[15:54] <Bo_DK_Working> just did a google and picked what looked reasonble easy
[15:54] <Bo_DK_Working> yes
[15:55] <mikestir> eroomde: the feedback path is through the mosfet and pot I think
[15:55] <Bo_DK_Working> think i will note things down gathered here so far
[15:55] <mikestir> so ok
[15:56] <Bo_DK_Working> dropbox link confirmed
[15:56] <Bo_DK_Working> no HMC
[15:56] <Bo_DK_Working> just downloaded myself
[15:57] <Bo_DK_Working> time to make notes and figure where i got solar schematic part
[15:57] <LeoBodnar> Where OUT* from TPS2044 go?
[15:57] <eroomde> Bo_DK_Working, are you sure you can leave the feedback pins unconnected on your switchdown regulators?
[15:57] <Bo_DK_Working> thou i'm open to ideas for better design
[15:57] <Bo_DK_Working> LeoBodnar: look at label at end of pin
[15:58] <LeoBodnar> Very few DCDC ICs allow for floating FB or ON/OFF pins
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[15:58] <Bo_DK_Working> that should go to tub chip
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[15:58] <Bo_DK_Working> with same pin label
[15:58] <LeoBodnar> It says OUT1
[15:58] <Bo_DK_Working> then find chip with same label
[15:59] <Bo_DK_Working> the connection is there... just not showed
[15:59] <Bo_DK_Working> make schematic better to look at
[15:59] <LeoBodnar> ???
[16:00] <eroomde> i think you probably need to connect the feedback pins on the stepdown convertors
[16:00] <Bo_DK_Working> look at TUSB2046B chip
[16:00] <Bo_DK_Working> and TPS2044
[16:00] <Bo_DK_Working> many pins that just ends with a bit of wire and label
[16:00] <LeoBodnar> What a mess
[16:01] <Bo_DK_Working> would be bigger mess if i drew the actual connection
[16:01] <Bo_DK_Working> its a well used method
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[16:01] <Bo_DK_Working> i guess mikestir catches it
[16:01] <mikestir> I've never told you to omit the connections on _everything_
[16:01] <mikestir> it's useful for things like buses
[16:01] <mikestir> lol
[16:02] <Bo_DK_Working> hehee....
[16:02] <LeoBodnar> Hint: Downstream ports Vbus have to go to OUT* on TPS2044
[16:02] <Bo_DK_Working> its the "bus" method i use
[16:02] <mikestir> oh and I think eroomde is right on the solar opamp being upside down because of the extra inversion through the fet
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[16:03] <Bo_DK_Working> solar charge source: http://www.electroschematics.com/8847/3a-6v12v-solar-charge-control/
[16:03] Nick change: William -> Guest65882
[16:03] <LeoBodnar> Otherwise mark TPS2044 as N/P
[16:03] <mikestir> no way should you omit the visible connection to FB though - especially since you didn't label the net
[16:03] <eroomde> mikestir, i'm not sure really
[16:04] <eroomde> i'm not sure what kind of battery it's designed to charge or anything
[16:04] <eroomde> ah
[16:04] Nick change: Guest65882 -> Willdude123
[16:04] <mikestir> I'm not really up on solar, but I thought you were meant to use shunt regulators?
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[16:04] <eroomde> lol yes
[16:04] <LeoBodnar> Just use MPPT chip
[16:04] <eroomde> http://www.electroschematics.com/8847/3a-6v12v-solar-charge-control/
[16:05] <eroomde> as i suggested, you have got your inverting (-) and non-inverting (+) inputs mixed up Bo_DK_Working
[16:05] <eroomde> on the op amp
[16:05] <Bo_DK_Working> HAAALT
[16:05] <Bo_DK_Working> need to make notes
[16:05] <eroomde> the notes are
[16:05] <eroomde> 1) no more asking about what features people want
[16:05] <eroomde> 2) make the simplest possible thing that can point your servos
[16:05] <Bo_DK_Working> and have an yelling girlfriend makeing dinner asking when i can lift my arse
[16:05] <eroomde> 3) build a prototype asap
[16:05] <eroomde> 4) debug and iterate
[16:05] <Willdude123> Wow. I have a PC with a 6 core 3.6 gHz processor that can't figure out that if my headphones are plugged in, I want to use them, if they aren't, I want HDMI audio
[16:06] <mikestir> just blame windows
[16:07] <Bo_DK_Working> arrrgh.... raspberry pi as desktop
[16:07] <eroomde> this is my tough love approach to online electronics help. no offence intended by it. I've just been here a million times before
[16:07] <Bo_DK_Working> slow as hell
[16:07] <Bo_DK_Working> eroomde: np.... i just need to take it a bit slow so i dont miss
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[16:07] <eroomde> yep
[16:08] <eroomde> i always tend to dive in and add features
[16:08] <Bo_DK_Working> going to note down everything so far and correct
[16:08] <LeoBodnar> Tip from me: Use £1 hub and don't bother with USB bit
[16:08] <eroomde> takes a bit of discipline to just make a v1 that you know what be the final thing
[16:08] <eroomde> but you'll learn a lot from it
[16:08] <eroomde> that you know *won't* be the final thing*
[16:08] <Bo_DK_Working> LeoBodnar: hehe.... there is no such thing as £1 things here
[16:08] <LeoBodnar> If it is USB 2.0 you will have tonnes of problem.
[16:09] <mikestir> Bo_DK_Working: ^^^ this
[16:09] <eroomde> yeah, dk is pricey!
[16:09] <eroomde> i love it
[16:09] <eroomde> but, pricey
[16:09] <Bo_DK_Working> fuck DK...
[16:09] <Bo_DK_Working> not even allowed to have a kit car here
[16:09] <Bo_DK_Working> anyways out for dinner
[16:09] <LeoBodnar> I like it too, but can't remember a thing :D
[16:10] <eroomde> the place or the currency?
[16:10] <eroomde> oh
[16:10] <eroomde> good luck Bo_DK_Working
[16:10] <eroomde> we're here to help
[16:10] <eroomde> just take it slow :)
[16:10] <LeoBodnar> The place
[16:10] <LeoBodnar> Remember the mermaid and lots of boats
[16:10] <eroomde> i really wanted a cateram 7 clone kit-car when i was 18
[16:10] <eroomde> got the cosworth engine and everything
[16:11] <eroomde> insurers took about 10 minutes to peel themselves up off the floor laughing when i asked
[16:11] <eroomde> that killed off that one
[16:11] <LeoBodnar> Haha
[16:12] <mikestir> anyone about that's been trying out webradio on raspberry pi (or BBB)?
[16:12] <LeoBodnar> It's OK, you'l get it still - midlife crisis is just around the corner
[16:12] <eroomde> i'm 26!
[16:12] <eroomde> i'd like to think i have a couple of decades before that one hits me
[16:13] <LeoBodnar> make it two corners
[16:13] <LeoBodnar> Some people are too busy to have it XD
[16:13] <mfa298_> mikestir: I'm around, is there a new version to play with ?
[16:14] <mikestir> I've got a branch that I can push
[16:14] <mikestir> it's functionally the same but with dynamic types so I can implement a CIC decimator
[16:14] <mikestir> but there's a number of optimisations - would be interesting to see if it's closer to working
[16:15] <mfa298_> I can have a play and see how it works
[16:15] <mikestir> let me push it to the public repo
[16:15] <eroomde> this sounds interesting mikestir
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[16:17] <mikestir> ok there's a branch "newdsp"
[16:18] <mikestir> I'm going to try to get the decimator incorporated this evening when I don't have a toddler to contend with
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[16:19] <eroomde> mikestir, you tinker with fpgas?
[16:20] <mikestir> yes
[16:20] <eroomde> fun
[16:20] <mikestir> not as often as I'd like
[16:21] <mikestir> I may get my DE1 out soon though so I can play with those Aptina cameras I got from China - see if the onboard JPEG encoder will work for ssdv
[16:21] <eroomde> i've been playing them them too
[16:22] <LeoBodnar> http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/3652fd.pdf solar panel battery charger with maximum power point tracking
[16:24] <eroomde> just for work but i would like to make a lisp machine on one
[16:26] <mikestir> I don't get to play with them at work anymore - nothing in my current job needs the throughput
[16:26] <mikestir> used to use them for shifting around loads of raw digital video
[16:28] <eroomde> i'm using them for sdr
[16:33] <mikestir> you use xilinx don't you?
[16:37] <eroomde> yes
[16:38] <eroomde> but no emotional attachment particularly
[16:38] <eroomde> to anything
[16:38] <mikestir> are the free tools any good on linux?
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[16:39] <eroomde> they're pretty much the same i think
[16:39] <eroomde> and i have little to compare them too
[16:39] <mikestir> that's good to know
[16:39] <eroomde> they're so ununixy that it's a bit of a brave new world to me
[16:40] <mikestir> last time I looked at them they didn't run well on linux, but the altera tools have been fine for a while now
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[16:42] <eroomde> le curling ou le bobsleigh?
[16:43] <eroomde> random snippets from my parent's house having french sattelite tv
[16:43] <eroomde> the tools run fine on linux i've found
[16:43] <eroomde> no actual bugginess
[16:43] <mikestir> the altera tools are _much_ faster on linux than on windows, but that comes as no real surprise
[16:44] <mfa298_> mikestir: assuming I get the correct version I had to correct the format in dsp/dspblock.cxx:204 to %llu and I'm getting a seg fault when trying to run it.
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[16:46] <mikestir> mfa298_: that format is wrong on all platforms - I wonder why it doesn't error out on x64
[16:46] <mikestir> can you run in gdb to find the segfault?
[16:47] <mfa298_> just doing a pastebin
[16:47] <mikestir> I do actually have a pi - should get it set up
[16:47] <mfa298_> http://pastebin.com/9q0dkEKv
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[16:48] <mfa298_> that's from loading the core file into gdb
[16:49] <mfa298_> when I ran it directly in gdb I just get /usr/lib/arm-linux-gnueabihf/libfftw3f.so.3 with nothing particularly useful
[16:50] <mikestir> hmmm
[16:50] <mikestir> I assume it's walking off the end of the buffer
[16:50] <mikestir> can't really see why though
[16:50] <mikestir> I'll pull my pi off the back of the tv in a bit
[16:52] <mfa298_> based on the console message I wonder if it's not started filling the buffer. it died straigt after: io/rtlsdrtuner.cxx(78): starting async capture
[16:53] <mikestir> it shouldn't matter. the DspData class is meant to manage that
[16:53] <mikestir> It's supposed to be like an stl vector but runtime typed
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[17:12] <eroomde> dad: "would you like to do a wine tasting? I've got three chablis i want you to try"
[17:12] <eroomde> i should come home more often
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[17:27] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, thanks for reminding me
[17:27] <Lunar_Lander> still have to watch the James May wine show
[17:28] <eroomde> he's such a wally
[17:28] <eroomde> so is oz clark
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[17:40] <ibanezmatt13> evening :)
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[17:43] <eroomde> i think my mum has just discovered memes
[17:44] <eroomde> i came into my parents living room to see her doubled up, crying with laughter with my sister's ipad
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[17:44] <eroomde> i asked her what he was laughing at
[17:44] <eroomde> this, apparently: http://f.kulfoto.com/pic/0001/0046/qf27845276.jpg
[17:44] <eroomde> because 'it's like you'
[17:44] <ibanezmatt13> haha
[17:44] <ibanezmatt13> true )
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:45] <ibanezmatt13> aaah just finished a nice bit of differentiation eroomde. Which I found significantly easier than straight line equations for some unexplainable reason
[17:46] <eroomde> yep
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[17:46] <eroomde> it's a concept that's nice
[17:47] <eroomde> in sicp you'll write programs that both do it numerically and algebraically
[17:47] <eroomde> you'll have an epiphany about programming along the way
[17:47] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[17:47] <eroomde> probably
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[18:22] <Bo_DK_Working> back... and read backlog... going to correct schematic as per advice given
[18:24] <Bo_DK_Working> found platform for yagi i think, its for solar tracking but maybe it can be used...
[18:24] <Bo_DK_Working> can have it 3d printed soon in plastic
[18:24] <Bo_DK_Working> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:22423
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[18:26] <Bo_DK_Working> usb hub idea official ditched :-D
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[18:43] <Bo_DK_Working> Nedd bit help....
[18:43] <Bo_DK_Working> is there a better schematic for solar charging a 12V than this:
[18:43] <mikestir> anyone know what the C++ equivalent of PRIu64 from inttypes.h is?
[18:43] <Bo_DK_Working> http://www.electroschematics.com/8847/3a-6v12v-solar-charge-control/
[18:43] <mikestir> it seems cinttypes hasn't appeared until C++11
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[18:44] <Bo_DK_Working> mikestir: you said catch diode is in wrong place?
[18:44] <Bo_DK_Working> where should it go...... and embassring but which one is it?
[18:44] <mikestir> yes the inductor should be in the output and the diode before it
[18:45] <ibanezmatt13> Declassified: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fs0wm6fpn0kh9e8/Video%2017-08-2013%2019%2034%2011.mov
[18:45] <mikestir> just compare what you've got with the reference design in the datasheet
[18:45] <Bo_DK_Working> hehe....
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[18:45] <Bo_DK_Working> i guess i will laugh at my self in a bit
[18:46] <Bo_DK_Working> while i'm at that... would there be a better schematic for solar charge?
[18:47] <LeoBodnar> Bo_DK_Working: use any MPPT solar battery charger IC
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[18:47] <Bo_DK_Working> LeoBodnar: ok... one more thing for todo list
[18:47] <LeoBodnar> Current state of 3D printing reminds me WWW in late 90s
[18:48] <mfa298_> ibanezmatt13: looks good
[18:48] <mikestir> LeoBodnar: hamsters and overuse of primary colours?
[18:48] <ibanezmatt13> thanks mfa298_. Terribly untidy but good enough :)
[18:48] <chrisstubbs> ibanezmatt13, where did you get the ublox/ntx2 boarD?
[18:48] <mfa298_> working it more important than tidy :D
[18:49] <Bo_DK_Working> mikestir: about inductor.....LOOOOOOOOL
[18:49] <ibanezmatt13> From Upu. The one I made on stripboard was identical to that but that's just a little breakout for i
[18:49] <ibanezmatt13> it*
[18:49] <LeoBodnar> Yes, 12 fonts on the same page and coloured backgrounds, animated gifs and other horrible stuff
[18:49] <eroomde> Bo_DK_Working, honestly, i'd not bother with solar charging for now
[18:49] <eroomde> just get something doing the basics
[18:49] <LeoBodnar> Car jack with not less than 3D printed motor holder
[18:50] <eroomde> solar charging has nothing to do with the problem of solving a remote yagi pointer really, and you can test it as a standalone add-on
[18:50] <LeoBodnar> that wobbles massively
[18:50] <eroomde> then integrate it into your one pcb further down the line
[18:50] <mfa298_> LeoBodnar: don't forget alternating use of <blink> and <marquee>
[18:50] <eroomde> don;t knock marquee
[18:50] <eroomde> it was the best thing on the internet
[18:51] <Bo_DK_Working> eroomde: will thinker.... but on to correct regulators
[18:51] <LeoBodnar> Bo_DK_Working: I'd say your current project is too ambitious
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[18:53] <Bo_DK_Working> LeoBodnar: yep... and a source for a bit failures
[18:53] <Bo_DK_Working> the only thing other than the basics now are the charge part...
[18:54] <eroomde> and the usb hub
[18:54] <eroomde> loose that
[18:54] <Bo_DK_Working> but that is due to i do not know how long a 7.5ah battery will last
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[18:54] <Bo_DK_Working> eroomde: i have ditched it many lines ago
[18:54] <eroomde> ah i have been eating
[18:54] <eroomde> sorry
[18:54] <Bo_DK_Working> np
[18:54] <eroomde> you can eaisly add solar charging later
[18:54] <eroomde> as a separate pcb
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[18:55] <eroomde> the pointing point doesn't have to know about the existence of the solar charging board
[18:55] <Bo_DK_Working> yeah... doing the regulators now...
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[18:55] <Bo_DK_Working> anyone have an idea of the effiency of the regulators on the BBB ?
[18:55] <Bo_DK_Working> those on pi is know to be poor
[18:55] <LeoBodnar> Get the project working 7805s
[18:56] <LeoBodnar> *with
[18:56] <eroomde> yeah, you're prematurely optimising
[18:56] <mikestir> mfa298_: I've got webradio building on the pi so I'll take a look at that bug after I've eaten
[18:56] <Bo_DK_Working> why put on stuff if its known to be crap?
[18:57] <eroomde> what does it matter now though?
[18:58] <eroomde> does your circuit care if it gets serial from a BBB or a Pi?
[18:58] <eroomde> can it tell the difference?
[18:58] <Bo_DK_Working> its the power part... i want the batterys to be used efficient
[18:59] <Bo_DK_Working> does not help if baf regulators suck the battery dry to fast
[18:59] <eroomde> how does that answer my question?
[18:59] <Bo_DK_Working> spec if it can be prevented with a better regulator
[18:59] <Bo_DK_Working> you asked about serial data and i talk about power
[19:00] <eroomde> so I observed
[19:00] <mfa298_> for being efficient I'd probably look at which board (-regs) is lower power and will work. You could always change the reg on the Pi if it's a better choice - and not everyone will care about it being efficient.
[19:00] <bertrik> I'm working on isolating the thor transmit code from dl-fldigi, not quite 5 minutes work
[19:01] <eroomde> you won't have to worry about that question really until you've got your board working just with a laptop
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[19:02] <mfa298_> I'm not sure that the pi regulator is necessarily in-efficient I think the bigger issues (at least seen here) are that it's got a high dropout voltage and there isn't much spare capacity on the 3v3 line
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> small KiCAD question, I got this battery array I made in the editor http://s.gullipics.com/image/j/p/r/5yv9nf-ku5ahv-rtow/Bildschirmfotovom20130817210338.png
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> and it does not like the ERC test due to either the top pin "BATT
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> sorry
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> when I set the + pins to be INPUT, all Pins save for the topmost one are OK, if they are OUTPUT, it of course complains about the pins that are wired together
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> so I am basically looking for a good way to make a battery chain
[19:08] <chrisstubbs> Lunar_Lander, can you get a battery pack consisting of multiple cells as a component?
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[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> let me check
[19:09] <Steve_2E0VET> should 4.99v (underload) 11.69v (no load) run an arduino with ublox NTX2 and SDcard
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> doesn't look like it, sady
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> sadly
[19:10] <DrLuke> such a huge voltage drop under load?
[19:10] <DrLuke> sounds like a bad battery/powersupply
[19:10] <Steve_2E0VET> they were cheapos from sainsbury
[19:10] <Steve_2E0VET> actually cheap AA energisers from sainsbury
[19:10] <eroomde> seconded
[19:11] <eroomde> fresh batteries shouldn't blink
[19:11] <fsphil> those batteries sound like they're dead
[19:11] <fsphil> ex-batteries
[19:11] <Steve_2E0VET> only used for a day
[19:11] <eroomde> you might expect maybe 10% drop from no load under a fairly heavy load
[19:12] <eroomde> and if they're at less than perhaps 75% of their nominal voltage they're almost certainly dead, for pretty much any battery chemistry
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[19:18] <Bo_DK_Working> doooooh... i have confused myself on 2 chips
[19:18] <Bo_DK_Working> HMC and one used to drive servos on pi
[19:18] <Steve_2E0VET> ok, i'll put the batteries to one side at the moment.
[19:20] <Steve_2E0VET> Im now having issues with my programer, it does seem to like uploading some sketches with a shield, it also takes a long time to upload, anyone seen these issues before
[19:20] <Bo_DK_Working> what was the fault arround the HMC???
[19:20] <eroomde> Steve_2E0VET, can be up there with drinking and smoking as an expensive habit, but the energizer lithium ultimate batts do the job pretty well
[19:20] <eroomde> Bo_DK_Working, from memory, there was no GND connection
[19:20] <Steve_2E0VET> eroomde, thats what i will get for the flight
[19:21] <eroomde> and perhaps all the i2c pins werent connected up
[19:22] <Bo_DK_Working> the GND I catched
[19:22] <Bo_DK_Working> thanks for that one
[19:23] <Steve_2E0VET> ok, so it wasnt dead batteries, it was that i hadnt plug the usb cable in
[19:25] <fsphil> but then you're powering from USB?
[19:27] <Steve_2E0VET> no usb debug
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[19:55] <mikestir> ping mfa298_
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[19:57] <mikestir> mfa298: I can't get the rtl dongle to work on my pi at all. rtl_eeprom returns a load of errors
[19:57] <mikestir> ideas?
[19:57] <mikestir> not permissions
[19:58] <mfa298> not sure, it's just worked for me
[19:58] <mikestir> it enumerates fine
[19:59] <mikestir> let me try some of the other rtlsdr tools...
[19:59] <mfa298> did you use 40RW67 performance has improved. I/O latency reduced from 119662 microseconds to 23773 microseconds.
[19:59] <mfa298> ooops, wrong paste
[19:59] <mfa298> cmake ../ -DINSTALL_UDEV_RULES=ON
[20:00] <mikestir> assuming the -D option just makes it copy rtl-sdr.rules across then that's what I did
[20:00] <mfa298> I think I also had to do a sudo ldconfig which might not be in all the docs
[20:00] <mikestir> yeah I had to do that as well
[20:00] <mfa298> I suspect so
[20:00] <mfa298> that looks to be all the slightly different things to a normal install
[20:01] <mikestir> http://pastie.org/8245820
[20:01] <mikestir> what tuner does yours have?
[20:02] <mfa298> R820T as well
[20:02] <mikestir> hmm pi has hung now
[20:02] <mfa298> http://pastie.org/8245823
[20:02] <mikestir> maybe it's power related
[20:02] <mikestir> although I'm running it from a phone charger
[20:03] <mfa298> I've had a few power issues which at times seem to be fairly random
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[20:09] <Bo_DK_Working> mikestir.... when i think i'm done with this board... do you have time to eyeball it before i get it fabbed?
[20:10] <jcoxon> evening all
[20:10] <chrisstubbs> hi jcoxon
[20:10] <Bo_DK_Working> hi there... and welcome to the "nutter" house :-D
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> hi doctor
[20:12] <Bo_DK_Working> well.. its only the nutter house because i'm here
[20:19] <jcoxon> hi Bo_DK_Working
[20:19] <jcoxon> thanks for the welcome to #highaltitude :-D
[20:19] <Bo_DK_Working> No problem.... only been here a few days myself, but decided to join in...
[20:20] <Bo_DK_Working> will send up baloons myself but will start by tracking and listning
[20:21] <mfa298> jcoxon: sounds like you have part of the intro for the conference sorted :p
[20:22] <jcoxon> Bo_DK_Working, do /msg chanserv info #highaltitude
[20:22] <jcoxon> :-D
[20:23] <jcoxon> hehe
[20:23] <Bo_DK_Working> loool
[20:23] <Bo_DK_Working> hope i have not made a total arse out of myself
[20:23] <jcoxon> just teasing
[20:23] <jcoxon> the enthusiasm is welcome
[20:23] <Bo_DK_Working> i assumed that
[20:24] <jcoxon> shame about my spelling
[20:24] <Bo_DK_Working> anyways i just try to contribute
[20:24] <Bo_DK_Working> this auto track thing might be the limit of my skills
[20:24] <Bo_DK_Working> but hope to learn from it
[20:24] Hix (~Hix@host86-163-121-76.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:25] <jcoxon> ping Upu
[20:25] <Steve_2E0VET> Anyone got any experience of using the TinyGPS examples?
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[20:30] <Bo_DK_Working> jcoxon .... the homepage... has(something) it has some flags on there.... not read them but i guess its general info for each country
[20:31] <Bo_DK_Working> could it not use a danish translation also?
[20:31] <Bo_DK_Working> thou we are only 2 danes on the mail list
[20:32] <mfa298> Bo_DK_Working: if you want to contribute a translation (or anything else to the wiki) then I'm sure you would be welcome to.
[20:33] <mfa298> you might need to get someone authorise your account when you've made one
[20:33] <Bo_DK_Working> :-D i guess i just have to reg as user
[20:33] <jcoxon> yeah we just have translations of a single article
[20:33] <jcoxon> Bo_DK_Working, in the winter you'll get some flights from the uk coming over to you
[20:34] <Bo_DK_Working> jcoxon so i just reg and you give me edit rights or how do i do it?
[20:34] <Bo_DK_Working> jcoxon: hehe look forward to it
[20:34] <Bo_DK_Working> if they land here i could get them and post them back
[20:34] <Bo_DK_Working> on water not so sure thou
[20:34] <Bo_DK_Working> could rent a boat if owner would like to cover the cost
[20:35] <Bo_DK_Working> on land just a small donation for petrol
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[20:36] <jcoxon> Bo_DK_Working, just register and you can then login and edit
[20:36] <Bo_DK_Working> :-D
[20:36] <Bo_DK_Working> will do in a bit
[20:36] <mfa298> Bo_DK_Working: yes, create an account and then I think you'll need Upu to authorise it (not sure if others can also authorise)
[20:37] <jcoxon> mfa298, i can
[20:37] <Bo_DK_Working> just doing a final lookover at schematic for this auto tracker....
[20:37] <Bo_DK_Working> have cut down a lot
[20:37] <Bo_DK_Working> as all advice made sense
[20:38] <mikestir> mfa298: I think this is a power problem. The device re-enumerates at some point while it's being accessed
[20:38] <mikestir> I have a very early model B pi
[20:38] <mikestir> will need to find a powered hub
[20:38] <mfa298> Bo_DK_Working: once you've got an account you could even create a page (or two) for your project, saves having to describe it each time.
[20:38] <Bo_DK_Working> mfa298: not bad
[20:39] <Bo_DK_Working> small Pi problem here too
[20:39] <Bo_DK_Working> i use it as dekstop...
[20:39] <mfa298> I've found some SD cards seem to be worse than others - not sure if some are more power hungry or just more tempermental with low power.
[20:39] <charolastra> that's the problem right there :P
[20:39] <Bo_DK_Working> this irc client have moved the top part above screen so i cant move it
[20:39] <Bo_DK_Working> i can minimise it
[20:39] <Bo_DK_Working> minimize
[20:40] <mikestir> I'm using a class 10 8GB which I imagine is pretty thirsty
[20:40] <charolastra> try holding ALT and clicking it
[20:40] <Bo_DK_Working> naaah
[20:40] <Bo_DK_Working> you mean click anywhere right?
[20:40] <charolastra> yeah, alternativly the "windows key"
[20:42] <Bo_DK_Working> nah and now i undocked windows
[20:42] <Bo_DK_Working> brb
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[20:43] Bo|2 (~Bo@87-51-52-114-static.dk.customer.tdc.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:43] <Bo|2> hmmm... screw it
[20:43] <Bo|2> will just minimize when i need something behind window
[20:43] Nick change: Bo|2 -> Bo_DK_Working
[20:45] <jcoxon> ping Upu
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[20:47] Nick change: Bo|2 -> Bo_DK_Working
[20:47] <Bo_DK_Working> anyways... moving on with pcb
[20:48] <x-f> mikestir, i'm trying to compile your websdr project, but `make` ends with "undefined reference" errors - http://pastebin.com/ZxcvWkmc - any hint on why and what to do?
[20:48] <mikestir> x-f: some of those are related to a little typo that got committed by mistake. if you git pull again they should get fixed
[20:49] <mikestir> but the pthread and clock_gettime ones are new to me
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[20:50] <x-f> ok, i'll try
[20:51] Action: jcoxon should really not go on seedstudio
[20:51] <jcoxon> always end up buying cool stuff that talks a month to arrive
[20:51] <Upu> evening jcoxon
[20:52] Action: Bo_DK_Working hope his project turnout usefull to more than himself
[20:52] <Upu> you pinged
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[20:56] Nick change: Guest73796 -> Willdude123
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[20:56] <Willdude123> Hi Upu
[20:57] <Willdude123> Man, I really need something cool to read about
[20:57] <Willdude123> Does anyone else ever get that?
[20:58] <cde> on the toilet, sometimes
[20:59] <cde> fortunately we have smartphones now
[20:59] oco (~chatzilla@AMontsouris-699-1-2-6.w109-216.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[20:59] <craag> That's why wifi in bogs is essential :)
[20:59] <LeoBodnar> Reading now this (hardcover) http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0123851858/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
[21:00] <eroomde> nice
[21:00] <eroomde> that's JW's thermometer as the cover pic sn't it?
[21:00] <LeoBodnar> yep
[21:01] <eroomde> rate it?
[21:01] <eroomde> it's the app notes right?
[21:01] <Willdude123> I just get it loads, like if I don't have anything cool like quadcopters to think about.
[21:02] <LeoBodnar> No, they go over typical designs and what is missing from appnotes.
[21:03] <Willdude123> Someone on IRC actually asked me what my major is.
[21:03] <LeoBodnar> Also got this : http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0750686278/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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[21:03] <mikestir> mfa298: polyfuse linked out, problem solved
[21:03] <LeoBodnar> And this http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0750694998/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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[21:06] <bertrik> eroomde: UpuWork how did you send primary/secondary messages with dominoex on HABs?
[21:06] <bertrik> it looks like the THOR code sends primary characters normally, and secondary characters when no primary character is available
[21:07] <Willdude123> eroomde still a bit confused about e. Don't understand it completely
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> yes bertrik
[21:08] <LeoBodnar> Secondary charset is just bling
[21:08] <bertrik> LeoBodnar: did you interleave primary messages with secondary messages, or interleave primary/secondary characters?
[21:08] <LeoBodnar> THOR is designed for chat modes
[21:08] <mfa298> mikestir: :D, I keep meaning to have a look at the polyfuses, I'm sure that's half the problems I've had
[21:08] <Upu> bertrik the just add 256 to the character to transmit the secondary varicode
[21:09] <LeoBodnar> Either works bertrik
[21:09] <Upu> I was going to interlace them
[21:09] <x-f> mikestir, git pull fixed those and now left only pthread and clock ones - http://pastebin.com/ZxSpjZEP
[21:09] <Upu> but atm I just transmit secondary whilst the primary is waiting for data
[21:09] <Upu> so you get a little ticker tape thing
[21:09] <Upu> was going to send lots of silly messages
[21:09] <mikestir> x-f: what platform are you building on?
[21:09] <Upu> "daisy daisy..."
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[21:10] <x-f> mikestir, armv7l, Ubuntu
[21:10] <LeoBodnar> cat fortune | DimonoEX
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[21:11] <bertrik> Upu: how can the primary be waiting for data? I thought you just transmit position data continuously
[21:11] <LeoBodnar> -bash: DimonoEX: command not found
[21:11] <LeoBodnar> *DominoEX
[21:11] <mikestir> x-f: comment out the #define DSPBLOCK_PROFILE at the top of src/dsp/dspblock.h
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[21:11] <Upu> bertrik I use interupts for the radio
[21:11] <mikestir> that will work around the clock_... ones. then it's just a case of figuring out what happened to pthreads
[21:11] <Upu> the main loop prepares the data then sets the ready to transmit flag
[21:12] <Upu> DominoEX should continually transmit something
[21:12] <Upu> even if its just nulls or spaces
[21:12] <Upu> so I stuck the second "ticker tape" message in that gap
[21:12] <bertrik> Upu: ok, thanks
[21:12] <LeoBodnar> Ditto
[21:13] <mikestir> x-f: you could try cut/pasting the final link command but appending -lpthread
[21:13] <Upu> I was considering interlacing the data string with the message string
[21:13] <mikestir> it seems to work on everything else without being specified explicitly though
[21:13] <LeoBodnar> Background task runs out of things to send -> send secondary fluff
[21:13] <Upu> but data is more important
[21:13] <Upu> I was going to add "I'm X miles from actual space"
[21:14] <x-f> mikestir, i commented out that line and a different error - http://pastebin.com/pKaEvsJ0
[21:14] <LeoBodnar> I got bored with that, now powersaving to the limit
[21:14] <x-f> mikestir, i added "LDFLAGS = -lpthread" to the Makefile, it fixed that pthread error
[21:14] <Upu> well if I could keep a foil up for that long so would I
[21:14] <Bo_DK_Working> jcoxon we have a new user on the wiki
[21:15] <LeoBodnar> He's gone
[21:15] <Bo_DK_Working> he is just waiting for pass e-mail
[21:15] <Bo_DK_Working> oh
[21:15] <Upu> whats the username ?
[21:15] <LeoBodnar> He's back
[21:15] <jcoxon> Bo_DK_Working, oh no email
[21:15] <Bo_DK_Working> Upu Boelle
[21:15] <bertrik> I;m now basically at the point that I ripped out the THOR transmit code into an isolated piece of code, still needs a bit of cleanup and a clean API
[21:15] <LeoBodnar> Hi jcoxon welcome to this channel!
[21:15] <Upu> done
[21:16] <Bo_DK_Working> Upu thanks
[21:16] <Upu> bertrik if you're developing Thor
[21:16] <Upu> you're welcome to my DomEx code
[21:16] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, thanks
[21:16] <jcoxon> on that note i'm off again
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[21:17] <bertrik> Upu: I'd appreciate that
[21:17] <Willdude123> Wow. ##math can't explain e to me.
[21:17] <Upu> if I can find it :/
[21:17] <mikestir> x-f: I'll make a note of these issues and get the fixes in when I merge the new DSP code back into master. Easiest fix for now will be to stub out nsPerFrameAll in dspblock.[cxx|h]
[21:18] <mikestir> just have it return 0
[21:18] <x-f> ok, i'll try that, thanks
[21:18] <bertrik> Upu: I'm working on it so hopefully someone else can use it in a payload, I'm trying to make it "arduino-compatible"
[21:18] <mikestir> I'm surprised your toolchain doesn't have the high precision timer functions
[21:19] <mikestir> the ARMv6 one on the pi does
[21:20] <Bo_DK_Working> Upu how long can it take before mail with pass is there?
[21:21] <Bo_DK_Working> just so i dont stare at gmail more than needed
[21:21] <cde> Willdude123: consider reading the wikipedia page. ;-)
[21:21] <x-f> hmm
[21:21] <Willdude123> I have
[21:22] <Willdude123> Useless, since I'm such a noon
[21:22] <Willdude123> noob
[21:22] <Upu> jsut removing all the APRS crap bertrik
[21:24] <bertrik> APRS? haven't noticed that yet
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[21:27] <Upu> you have a PM bertrik
[21:27] <Upu> ok afk dog walk
[21:29] <Bo_DK_Working> hmmm... with mods could this tracker not be made an auto dog walker?
[21:29] <Bo_DK_Working> maybe with built in treat dispenser when the dog does its thing
[21:29] <LeoBodnar> I am still not convinced in FEC necessity for UHF links
[21:30] <LeoBodnar> HF is another story
[21:31] <Bo_DK_Working> stupid q.... how do i create a blank page in wiki?
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[21:33] <Randomskk> LeoBodnar: but coding always improves links :(
[21:33] <craag> FEC would be useful for the rayleigh fading often seen in a chase car (as you go past buildings, under bridges)
[21:34] <Randomskk> appropriate fec would increase link capacity
[21:34] <Randomskk> hmm though admittedly I haven't read any of the preceding discussion
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> Ranomskk: but increasing the bandwidth is a very good way to start
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> *Randomskk
[21:35] <x-f> mikestir, looks like it compiled - i uncommented that line in dspblock.h and then modified Makefile to add -lrt param: LIBS = -lmp3lame -lm -lrt
[21:35] <craag> I do agree that if you're just trying to grab a signal as it just attenuates over the horizon, you could just send it slower and get the same effect.
[21:36] <LeoBodnar> When SNR is high it is just sending 50% of link capacity to waste
[21:36] <Randomskk> LeoBodnar: not all codes involve 50% redundancy
[21:36] <LeoBodnar> WHich is 99% of the time how UHF works
[21:36] <Randomskk> loads of the errors even in high SNR are caused by burst noise from local interference
[21:37] <Randomskk> so even a couple bits redundancy per sentence would be beneficial
[21:37] <craag> Yeah just 10% would be useful
[21:37] <Randomskk> which is like rate .99 or something
[21:37] <Randomskk> even 1%
[21:37] <craag> true
[21:37] <Willdude123> hi craag
[21:37] <LeoBodnar> THOR FEC occupies 50% of channel capacity
[21:37] <Randomskk> then once you're near the horizon it becomes more beneficial
[21:37] <mikestir> x-f: ok thanks. I've made a note of that. are you running this on beaglebo*?
[21:37] <Randomskk> LeoBodnar: then thro fec isn't appropriate for habs
[21:37] <craag> Evening Willdude123
[21:38] <Randomskk> and it's probably not even close to capacity anyway, what fec does it use?
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/okNbCT5.png
[21:38] <LeoBodnar> I admit I was thinking of THOR FEC and not in general
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> report tiem
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> *repost
[21:39] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: so what, even fairly non-capacity codes deliver significant fade margin?
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> thats for 50bps throughput
[21:39] <Randomskk> you still want near capacity code anyway though
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: yeah
[21:39] <x-f> mikestir, it's a MK808 ("Android Mini PC")
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> but you need bandwidth
[21:39] <Randomskk> yea fe
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> for 50bps you prob want like 200hz or so
[21:40] <mikestir> x-f: looks nice
[21:40] <craag> Having a mode-independent bit-level FEC with a puncture rate specified in payload doc would be ideal IMO. But I haven't thought about how to implement it.
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[21:40] <Randomskk> there are ways. it would be nice.
[21:40] <Randomskk> well probably not in payload doc?
[21:40] <Randomskk> like it should probably be autodetecting. you want to change it over the flight profile maybe
[21:40] <craag> Then people like steve can use 1%, Leo and other floaters can use 50%.
[21:41] <craag> Ah good point, that would be cool
[21:41] <mikestir> mfa298: the segfault is due to an untrapped memory allocation failure
[21:41] <craag> Didn't know you could autodetect..
[21:41] <Randomskk> there are rateless codes
[21:41] <Randomskk> so you can just have as much or as little redundancy as desired
[21:41] <craag> sounds ideal
[21:41] <Randomskk> though as with most things there the caveat is block size
[21:41] <Randomskk> but should be workable
[21:41] <Randomskk> digital fountain codes are one example
[21:41] <LeoBodnar> quite a radical departure from fldigi
[21:42] <craag> Just opened the wikipedia article :)
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[21:42] <Herman-PB0AHX> ga all
[21:42] <LeoBodnar> And quite overdue too
[21:42] <Randomskk> LeoBodnar: yea it would be. it's an area I'd like to play with a lot.
[21:42] <Randomskk> but I have some other plans too.
[21:42] <Upu> hi Herman
[21:42] <Randomskk> I want to write an experimental dl-fldigi alternative really
[21:42] <Randomskk> was going to try and do it this summer, but went to canada instead.
[21:43] <Randomskk> can't be helped. maybe later.
[21:44] <Randomskk> I think you could do a much better job of decoding the type of ukhas rtty packets everyone transmits by removing redundancy on the ground side
[21:44] <Randomskk> like, totally eliminiate those annoying burst errors
[21:44] <Herman-PB0AHX> Who can help me with an Arduino or can tell me how I can come to
[21:44] <craag> I'd like to bugfix matt's decoder and get it easily usable so I can play with bitstream processing (like swapping least definite bits and checksumming again if it fails first time). But haven't got the motivation to get java dev setup yet.
[21:44] <mfa298> mikestir: sounds like a good proof of why you shouldn't assume things will work.
[21:44] <Randomskk> eugh java :p
[21:44] <craag> exactly..
[21:45] <mikestir> mfa298: absolutely!
[21:45] <Randomskk> be really careful with swapping least sig bits
[21:45] <Randomskk> the checksums are crapish
[21:45] <Randomskk> say there are 150 bytes and the checksum has 2^16 states and the birthday paradox is against you
[21:46] <eroomde> LeoBodnar,
[21:46] <eroomde> The author, wholly unenthralled by web surfing, has spent
[21:46] <eroomde> many delightful hours “surfing the Kelvin.” This activity consists of
[21:46] <eroomde> dialing various Kelvin-Varley divider settings and noting monitoring
[21:46] <eroomde> A-to-D agreement within 1ppm. This is astonishingly nerdy behavior,
[21:46] <eroomde> but thrills certain types.
[21:46] <eroomde> from the 20-bit dac app note
[21:46] <craag> yeah, I wasn't going to let it brute-force collisions!
[21:46] <Randomskk> what were you going to do?
[21:47] <LeoBodnar> Lol, he has sinned Father!
[21:47] <Randomskk> also the LSB bits are no more likely to be wrong
[21:47] <mikestir> mfa298: it's because it tries to "realloc" a 0 byte block, which apparently works on the PC but not on the arm toolchain
[21:47] <craag> I don't mean LSB
[21:47] <Randomskk> oh
[21:47] <Randomskk> you did say definite
[21:47] <craag> I mean the bits where it's 51% sure it's a '1'
[21:47] <Randomskk> yea
[21:47] <Randomskk> sure
[21:47] <Herman-PB0AHX> nobody can tel me ??
[21:47] <Randomskk> that'd be cool
[21:47] <craag> checksum fails, so try '0' instead.
[21:47] <Randomskk> uh huh
[21:48] <cde> somebody tel Herman-PB0AHX
[21:48] <LeoBodnar> I guess he would be sacked within days in modern climate
[21:48] <craag> Wouldn't get much gain from it I know, but would get me on the road to learning a bit more of DSP programming.
[21:49] <Herman-PB0AHX> maby i mist it mmmm
[21:49] <craag> Herman-PB0AHX: What is it you want to know?
[21:49] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: I had a very strange experience last week
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[21:51] <Herman-PB0AHX> i I'm looking to buy address via the web or else phone for a arduino
[21:51] <LeoBodnar> I had a brainlapse and accidentally removed an address line on a tightly packaged PCB between and MCU and external RAM. CAD software diligently removed the bit of copper between the MCU pin and the track going to the RAM chip.
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[21:53] <LeoBodnar> So there was 10-15mil gap. Then I have unknowingly dumb and happy proceeded to panelising the PCB into a large panel. With all PCBs having a floating address line.
[21:53] <fsphil> eek
[21:53] <fsphil> happy patch wire time
[21:54] <mikestir> i once did bringup on a board where the address bus was off-by-one to a 16-bit wide flash chip
[21:54] <craag> Herman-PB0AHX: There's a few places that sell them in the UK
[21:54] <mikestir> ended up taking off the termination resnets and wire linking the whole bus
[21:54] <mikestir> it was unpleasant
[21:54] <mfa298> mikestir: interesting, I'd have assumed that should be the same, (although I think I've only ever realloc'ed a block that already has some size)
[21:54] <LeoBodnar> Got panels back and assembled a test unit. Debugging and all. Looked at the drawing, triple head slap.
[21:54] <Herman-PB0AHX> :<craag> can u give me a link ??
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> hi craag
[21:55] <mikestir> mfa298: looking at the manpage for realloc I think it's a bug in the c library, but I'm adding a workaround for it
[21:55] <Randomskk> LeoBodnar: uugh i hate that moment when you realise
[21:55] <craag> Herman-PB0AHX: Internet is slow, but 'Cool Components' 'Proto PIC' for a couple
[21:55] <Herman-PB0AHX> :<craag> i go look tnx
[21:56] <LeoBodnar> Pondering whether 38AWG or 36AFG is better for wire linking and is it better to pay assembler to do it...
[21:56] <LeoBodnar> 0.5mm pitch TQFP
[21:56] <mikestir> mfa298: actually in writing that it occurs to me it's not a bug - it legitimately returns null - but that doesn't explain why it works on x86
[21:56] <LeoBodnar> OK, time to face the music - pull out the microscope to look at the battle field.
[21:56] <mfa298> that sounds like it can't allocate the requested memory if it's reurning null
[21:57] <eroomde> LeoBodnar, that must be very, very annoying
[21:57] <LeoBodnar> WTF?! The trace is there!!! Wait its there on all the PCBs on the panel?!
[21:57] <mikestir> but it's a 0 sized block so it's a nop, and therefore ok
[21:57] <LeoBodnar> THis is impossible
[21:57] <eroomde> woah...
[21:57] <craag> Herman-PB0AHX: You can find some on ebay too, but if they're cheap, they're probably clones (and might have issues).
[21:57] <LeoBodnar> THis is just simply not possible
[21:58] <LeoBodnar> Germans could not have just simply adjusted gerbers without even asking me.
[21:58] <Herman-PB0AHX> :<craag> ok i need a good one hihihi tnx
[21:58] <craag> Yep, go for shops then.
[22:00] <LeoBodnar> I think they have screwed up and this have unscrewed my screwup.
[22:01] <eroomde> demand a full refund
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[22:03] <LeoBodnar> I don't know whether to ring them and ask how the heck they have ruined the panels or just take it as a divine intervention.
[22:03] <LeoBodnar> ruined should be in DOUBLE quotes.
[22:04] <craag> If they've mucked that bit up though, they've probably mucked something else up?
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[22:04] <Randomskk> now would be a good time to check the gerbers you emailed them :P
[22:05] <LeoBodnar> I did it about 10 times before admitting I must have gone mad.
[22:05] <x-f> mikestir, do i need something special to see the controls and the waterfall?
[22:05] <mikestir> x-f: look at html/README.jquery
[22:06] <mikestir> -jquery sorry
[22:06] <LeoBodnar> The reality check is that PCB traces can only be routed with consistent schematic and I always rename the file and delete schematic before panelising.
[22:06] <x-f> sorry, didn't RTFM :)
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[22:09] <cde> LeoBodnar: maybe their software did it automatically
[22:09] <LeoBodnar> So here we go, double-Murphy
[22:10] <mikestir> there wasn't a note in the box with the pcbs that said "you're welcome" was there?
[22:10] <craag> lol
[22:11] <craag> Like the email I got from Hackvana "Just checked your 'new design
[22:11] <craag> ' and it's exactly like the old one, did you send the right files?"
[22:11] <craag> I didn't...
[22:12] <LeoBodnar> Gerbers show 7 mil gap and I have used their 6 mil process.
[22:13] <LeoBodnar> This was Rev.B but the first time they have got the design. Rev.A has been done in another place.
[22:14] <LeoBodnar> no mikestir XD
[22:15] <x-f> mikestir, this is awesome, well done, thank you! :)
[22:16] <LeoBodnar> The PCBs have somehow passed flying probes test as well
[22:16] <mikestir> x-f: the rx is quite unimpressive at the moment, mainly because I need to decimate sooner so I can make the channel filter narrower - that's what I'm working on now
[22:16] <mikestir> browser audio latency is also a problem
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[22:17] Nick change: Andrew -> Guest39505
[22:17] <x-f> it's working already, i'm decoding my payload on my computer, using that minipc with the rtlsdr in another room :)
[22:18] Nick change: Bo_DK_Working -> Bo_DK_Sleeping
[22:19] <mikestir> using SSB mode?
[22:19] <x-f> yep
[22:19] <mikestir> heh that's cool. you'll be getting both upper and lower sidebands though, so SNR will be worse than it should be
[22:22] <x-f> i understand, it's still cool
[22:22] <x-f> what do those little digits to the right from the "MHz" mean?
[22:23] <mikestir> nothing yet - it's intended for memories, but really I was just playing with layout
[22:23] <x-f> ah, ok
[22:23] <mikestir> and the second frequency display is because the lower half will become a tab set, so you can add more receivers to do simultaneous decode
[22:23] <Guest39505> Is there a USA equivalent of www.ukhas.org.uk ?
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[22:25] <fsphil> Guest39505: http://www.arhab.org/
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[22:26] <Guest39505> thanks
[22:27] <bertrik> oh, BTW, I think I'll continue working on thor
[22:27] <mikestir> mfa298: fixed it
[22:27] <fsphil> thor is an interesting mode
[22:28] <fsphil> I think it'll work better than dominoex
[22:28] <LeoBodnar> thor is just DOmeX+FEC
[22:28] <fsphil> yep
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[22:39] <LeoBodnar> good night!
[22:39] <fsphil> nite!
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[23:58] <craag> Arggh just found this PCB needs to be 110mm long. Free eagle doesn't like it :(
[00:00] --- Sun Aug 18 2013