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[02:45] <heathkid> what size helium tanks do most people here use?
[02:46] <heathkid> calculations show a 80 cu. ft. would be good for two 600g balloons... right?
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[07:02] <LeoBodnar> Upu: hi, around?
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[07:39] Nick change: Upu -> UpuWork
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[07:41] <rharrison_> Do we have any info on SDR on habhub
[07:42] <rharrison_> Is there an SDR device we favor?
[07:42] <LeoBodnar> B-7 just launched on 434.500MHz DominoEX 16
[07:42] <rharrison_> Arse I'm at work :-(
[07:43] <LeoBodnar> 3 min sleep / 2 sentences TX so please be patient :)
[07:43] <rharrison_> LeoBodnar, is this another 3 dayer?
[07:43] <number10> oh great - took aerial down this morning
[07:43] <LeoBodnar> No, just testing some weird batteries
[07:43] <LeoBodnar> Expecting them to fail
[07:43] <rharrison_> LeoBodnar, it would be a good idea to do a 10 second tome before TX though you may have done that.
[07:44] <LeoBodnar> It beeps every 3 seconds throughout sleep
[07:44] <LeoBodnar> "Sputnuk" mode
[07:47] <rharrison_> LeoBodnar, Cool that will make it easy to keep tuned too
[07:48] <fsphil> leo's payloads have very little drift
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[07:48] <fsphil> luckly as dominoex doesn't have AFC
[07:48] <fsphil> in fldigi
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[07:50] <fsphil> there's a fair chance of lightning in england today so probably wise to have taken the antenna down number10 :)
[07:50] <number10> :) I thought so fsphil .. thats why I was taking it down at 5:40 this morning
[07:51] <fsphil> I unplugged my HF but just realised the FCD is still plugged into the colinear
[07:52] <mfa298_> I think there was bits of thunder (and lightning) in the south last night
[07:52] <fsphil> aye, a few storms moved up from france
[07:55] <LazyLeopard> Hmmm... A day for keeping half an eye on http://www.blitzortung.org then. ;)
[07:56] <UpuWork> rharrison_ Funcube Dongle Pro
[07:56] <UpuWork> I disconnected my antennas before I left for work too
[07:57] <fsphil> I'm paranoid now. will probably head up at lunch and disconnect it
[07:57] <fsphil> the odds of lightning here is not great
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[08:33] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[08:34] <Lunar_LanderU> yay LeoBodnar back on the air
[08:34] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
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[08:39] <G0TDJ_Steve> Morning
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[08:40] <Herman-PB0AHX> gm to all
[08:41] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good MOrning guys
[08:41] <Herman-PB0AHX> wat is frequentie of B7
[08:41] <G0TDJ_Steve> Not sure Herman-PB0AHX Only just switched on myself
[08:42] <G0TDJ_Steve> I don't think it's active It's been at 4066m since I started watching
[08:42] <Herman-PB0AHX> ok
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[08:42] <G0TDJ_Steve> What gives LeoBodnar? :-)
[08:44] <fsphil> he was testing some "weird" battery
[08:44] <fsphil> expected to fail
[08:44] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh, well it obviously did fsphil
[08:45] <fsphil> that's a kind of successful test.. maybe
[08:46] <G0TDJ_Steve> I hope he got what he was after
[08:46] <eroomde> you successfully got the single bit of information that you wanted
[08:46] <eroomde> well actually it's less than a bit
[08:46] <eroomde> if you expected it to fail
[08:46] <eroomde> it's 0.x bits of information
[08:46] <eroomde> where x depends on how much you expected it to fail
[08:47] <G0TDJ_Steve> eroomde: BUt Leo might have wanted to know why or how it failed, even if the failure was guaranteed
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[08:48] <eroomde> yes indeed. then he would have bot more bits of information
[08:48] <eroomde> but if it wasn't instrumented to do that, it's <1bit of information
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[08:48] <eroomde> i was just observing
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[08:49] <fsphil> I'm not following this one bit
[08:49] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, no worries :-)
[08:49] <fsphil> to early in the morning for statistics :)
[08:49] <fsphil> +o
[08:49] <eroomde> well, information theory bits are different to computer science bits
[08:49] <fsphil> indeed
[08:49] <eroomde> like a computer needs 1 bit to store pass/fail
[08:50] <eroomde> but a pass/fail test can produce less than one bit of information
[08:50] <fsphil> I first encountered fractional bits when reading about arithmetic coding
[08:50] <eroomde> if you *know*, for certain, it will fail, then when it does fail that doesn't give you any new inforation. so that's zero bits
[08:50] <eroomde> if it's 50/50 as far as you know, then the outcome gives you 1 bit
[08:51] <eroomde> and if it's somewhere inbetween 50/50 and a certain outcome then you get between 0 and 1 bits
[08:51] <eroomde> fsphil: have you ever used dasher?
[08:51] <eroomde> the text entry thing
[08:51] <fsphil> I've not
[08:51] <eroomde> do
[08:52] <eroomde> it's a perfect example of an arithmetic code
[08:52] <G0TDJ_Steve> Phone - brb
[08:52] <fsphil> ooooh yes I've seen this before
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[08:53] <fsphil> ah D.MacKey again
[08:53] <eroomde> so the size of the text on the right depends on how likely it is, given what you have already taken from it
[08:54] <eroomde> so it's perfectly analogous to an arithmetic code, infact it was stufying arithmetic codes that cause d mackay to invent it
[08:54] <eroomde> where the size of the text on the right is proportional to their probability
[08:56] <Herman-PB0AHX> ok it is to hot in radio room now here i am later back GL all
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[08:58] <mfa298_> considering it's a 3min sleep on B-7 and the last data was <10 minutes ago with leo the only receiver it seems a bit early to call that its already failed. (Unless Leo heard it die)
[08:58] <mfa298_> and it had an update so so far it's failed to fail
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[08:59] <Lunar_LanderU> what sort of battery did he want to test?
[09:00] <fsphil> only LeoBodnar knows :)
[09:00] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[09:00] <Lunar_LanderU> I wondered recently about the vaisala batteries, as shown in the teardown by mikeselectricstuff
[09:00] <fsphil> the water ones?
[09:00] <Lunar_LanderU> yeah
[09:01] <Lunar_LanderU> but that seems to be only one model
[09:01] <Lunar_LanderU> the others seem to be lipoly or normal AAs with water around them which would freeze and thus give off heat
[09:05] <mfa298_> I'm guessing it might be some sort of rechargeable cell he's flying
[09:08] <gonzo__> I got given one of the early 80's polystyrene cased sondes at the weekend
[09:08] <gonzo__> I think the currebt generation are just std AA batts
[09:10] <daveake> I wonder what percentage of Energizer Lithiums end up going skyward
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[09:12] <Lunar_LanderU> gonzo__: yes, but vaisala seems to heavily use the water-activated system
[09:14] <fsphil> probably cheaper
[09:14] <fsphil> I suspect most design decisions for those sondes are price based
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[09:23] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
[09:23] <Lunar_LanderU> maybe also environmental, as these land anywhere and batteries are not that harmless in terms of poisons
[09:23] <fsphil> true
[09:24] <mfa298_> when its weak I think it's slightly easier to see the dominoex than the beeps on the waterfall (I just managed to catch some of it although not quite good enough for a decode)
[09:26] <gonzo__> the recovered one (from a couple opf years ago) I saw, has a sitcket on saying that the batteries were harmles (to the environment) and could be put in the std bin
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[09:30] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
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[09:32] <daveake> Question re the CAA application ... as anyone been able to use a Google map or something else other than a scan from an actual OS map?
[09:32] <daveake> has^
[09:33] <daveake> Just helping someone out with an application for their site
[09:34] <fsphil> daveake: yes
[09:34] <fsphil> I asked as I couldn't get the OS map for cookstown
[09:34] <daveake> ah cool
[09:34] <fsphil> DM said it was OK as long as the scale was the same
[09:34] <daveake> Ah right
[09:35] <daveake> Dunno why a standard long/lat position isn't enough
[09:35] <number10> I can do a screen shot of os 1:50k for england daveake if you want
[09:35] <daveake> Ah cheers
[09:35] <daveake> you will have a PM :)
[09:37] <jcoxon> ooo looks like B-7 is off on a journey
[09:38] <fsphil> I thought it had died earlier. phew
[09:38] <jcoxon> oh
[09:39] <jcoxon> it hasn't updated for a bit i guess
[09:39] <daveake> Tested a different type of battery
[09:39] <jcoxon> hmmm
[09:39] <daveake> The test passed, in that it showed the battery failed :p as expected
[09:39] <fsphil> it has updated since I thought it died
[09:39] <fsphil> I think the signal is a bit weaker than usual?
[09:40] <daveake> Oh it's still Txing?
[09:40] <fsphil> yea
[09:40] <fsphil> the time on there is UTC
[09:40] <daveake> I've not set up as I thought it was dead dead
[09:40] <fsphil> heading away from me
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[09:40] <fsphil> silly picos :)
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[09:41] Action: daveake quickly points aerial
[09:41] <cyclops> good morning!
[09:41] <fsphil> mornings
[09:50] <eroomde> samba is now set up
[09:50] <eroomde> there i always one
[09:50] <eroomde> is*
[09:50] <eroomde> this isn't the company irc is it
[09:50] <eroomde> this is #highaltitude
[09:50] <eroomde> as you were
[09:52] <daveake> lol
[09:52] <daveake> ls \\eroomde_server\pron_folder
[09:53] <morteh_> haha yeah how many TB of warez you got on that server
[09:54] <Jess--> freq for B7?
[09:55] <Jess--> seeing as it's heading straight at me
[09:55] <x-f> 434.500
[09:55] <Laurenceb__> eroomde: fixed my fitting woes
[09:55] <Laurenceb__> thanx for the help
[09:55] <Laurenceb__> im using FGLS
[09:56] <Laurenceb__> and its giving me nice covar matrixes for my vector of fit coefficients
[09:58] <Jess--> is it rigged to do heavy power saving, I got 2 strings and now it's just sending beepes every 5 seconds
[09:59] <x-f> 10:43:00 <LeoBodnar> 3 min sleep / 2 sentences TX so please be patient :)
[09:59] <x-f> 10:44:40 <LeoBodnar> It beeps every 3 seconds throughout sleep
[09:59] <fsphil> planning a long flight then :)
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[10:01] <Laurenceb__> battery looks a bit low surely?
[10:01] <M0TVU> Good morning
[10:01] <mattbrejza> i dont think its a standard lithuim on there
[10:02] <Laurenceb__> oh
[10:02] <M0TVU> What's the freq for B7 please?
[10:02] <mattbrejza> .5
[10:02] <x-f> somebody update the map's infobox, plz? :)
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[10:06] <gonzo__> bugger, all the LNA's are off at home again.
[10:06] <Laurenceb__> looks like battery started at 1.45v
[10:06] <M0TVU> freq for B7 anyone?
[10:07] <Laurenceb__> some sort of lithium primary?
[10:07] <mattbrejza> .5
[10:07] <mattbrejza> (+434)
[10:07] <M0TVU> 434.500
[10:09] <Laurenceb__> looks like lithium iron disulphide
[10:12] <Laurenceb__> no actually its too low
[10:12] <Laurenceb__> maybe zinc air or something exotic?
[10:16] <Laurenceb__> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/coin-button-batteries/0221197/
[10:16] <Laurenceb__> niceeeee
[10:18] <Laurenceb__> 70% higher energy density than energizer lithium
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[10:18] <Laurenceb__> just a pity about the high ESR
[10:18] <M0TVU> B7 - Comms protocol? - Clearly not RTTY
[10:19] <G4MYS_Andy> good morning all I wonder whet freq is B-7 on please
[10:19] <mattbrejza> it will autoconfigure to domex16
[10:19] <M0TVU> Yes I have just done that
[10:19] <x-f> G4MYS_Andy, 434.5, as always with B-x
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[10:21] <G4MYS_Andy> OK thank youy but not a squeak so far! many thanks
[10:21] <mattbrejza> its currently beeping
[10:21] <mfa298_> G4MYS_Andy: it's there but you need to wait for it as it only transmitts for a short while
[10:21] <mattbrejza> will give some data every 3mins or so
[10:22] <M0TVU> I have autoconfigured and all is done but still set to RTTYR in the drop down box. Does that make any difference?
[10:22] <mfa298_> hmmm, I'm guessing it must have faded for me. I got 3 packets earlier and nothing since.
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[10:22] <mattbrejza> its strong here
[10:22] <M0TVU> Just had a burst so clearly not :-)
[10:23] <mfa298_> M0TVU: most people use USB in the dropdown.
[10:23] <mattbrejza> hmm did it just die?
[10:23] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[10:23] <Jess--> not seeing the beeps
[10:23] <mattbrejza> the domex cut off early it seemed
[10:24] <Jess--> all came through here
[10:24] <Jess--> $$B-7,217,102229,52.6316,-0.6484,7258,5,1.12,10*0870
[10:24] <G4MYS_Andy> mfa 298 can you give correct dial freq then so i can search more diligently!
[10:24] <mattbrejza> yea it came through, but it looked like it was going to start doing another, but then stopped before any characters came thru
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[10:25] <Jess--> 434.5 carrier center at 1700 hz
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[10:25] <Pilgrimpaul> hi
[10:26] <G4MYS_Andy> ok I will lurk onthat freq with interest many thanks Lads
[10:26] <mattbrejza> yea, its dead
[10:26] <daveake> I tried 15 mins ago saw nothing
[10:26] <daveake> Hi Pilgrimpaul
[10:26] <Pilgrimpaul> looking to launch a hab next July and was told this is a good place to seek advice :)
[10:27] chrisg7ogx (5699917e@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[10:27] <daveake> It's as good as anywhere :p
[10:27] <chrisg7ogx> Good Morning! Is B7 trackable please?
[10:27] <mattbrejza> there are certianly worse places to try
[10:27] <fsphil> next July .. you're giving yourselves plenty of time Pilgrimpaul :)
[10:27] <daveake> Yes, makes a change :)
[10:28] <daveake> Usually it's "have to launch next week give me codez and designz"
[10:28] <Pilgrimpaul> is there anyone here involved with the Cambridge Uni Space Flight team?
[10:28] <chrisg7ogx> what dial freq is B7 on please?
[10:28] <Pilgrimpaul> i work in a school in Plymouth and would love to get them onboard
[10:29] <mattbrejza> there are nearer universities that do balloon launches
[10:29] Action: daveake looks in general direction of Soton
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[10:30] <Jess--> chrisg7ogx b-7 died about 7 mins ago
[10:30] <daveake> Guess he just anted Cambridge then :p
[10:30] <daveake> w
[10:30] <mattbrejza> DanielRi1hman is the best cam uni contact though, as you asked
[10:30] <G4MYS_Andy> B7 = 434.5 carrier centre, but could be off air by comments made B4 you joined
[10:30] <chrisg7ogx> Jess tks..Doh!
[10:31] Nick change: DanielRi1hman -> DanielRichman
[10:31] <chrisg7ogx> cheers Andy
[10:31] <G4MYS_Andy> welcome mate!
[10:31] <Laurenceb__> looks like zinc air button wasnt up to the job
[10:31] <Jess--> nothing heard for 8 mins now, and I'm pretty local
[10:31] <fsphil> aww
[10:31] <SpeedEvil> Zinc air are very temeprature sensitive, I thought.
[10:32] <SpeedEvil> what altitude was it at?
[10:32] <Jess--> still lurking on freq just in case
[10:32] <mattbrejza> also their name would imply they like a good soruce of air
[10:32] <Jess--> about 7200
[10:32] <SpeedEvil> There will be considerably less air at that altitude - if demanding high current - it may have dropped out
[10:32] <G4MYS_Andy> is it likely to burst back into life, or will it stay off air and lanfd in France one day next week?
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[10:33] <mattbrejza> 'the oxygen in 1 liter of air is required for every ampere-hour of capacity used.'
[10:33] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar said he only expected 2 hours
[10:34] <Laurenceb__> so im guessing it was a small cell
[10:34] <Laurenceb__> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/coin-button-batteries/0221197/ <- looks more suitable
[10:34] <mattbrejza> well he got his two hours
[10:34] <Laurenceb__> yeah, looks like ~3
[10:35] <SpeedEvil> Hah - we've been spoilt by ridiculously overperforming batteries.
[10:35] <fsphil> the ascent doesn't look like a foil
[10:35] <fsphil> far too smooth :)
[10:35] <Laurenceb__> guessing it was a little 60mAh cell or something
[10:36] Pilgrimpaul (~anonymous@ joined #highaltitude.
[10:36] <Laurenceb__> it looks feasible
[10:37] <Laurenceb__> maybe two of those 600mAh thingies
[10:37] <Pilgrimpaul> opps... back!
[10:37] <Laurenceb__> thatd be much lighter than an AAA
[10:37] <Pilgrimpaul> been many moons since ive been on irc
[10:38] <mattbrejza> so what are you looking to do Pilgrimpaul ?
[10:39] <eroomde> oh gosh, samba's idea of permissions and unix's idea of permissions don't really get along
[10:39] <eroomde> they're like a divorced couple living in the same house
[10:39] <eroomde> they don't talk
[10:39] <eroomde> when you force them too, stuff explodes
[10:40] <fsphil> that's windows for you
[10:40] <cyclops> yeeees
[10:40] <cyclops> my cameras just arrived
[10:40] <Pilgrimpaul> run a 12 month project with students looking at the science, maths, technology behind launching a balloon into space... all building up to the launch next July
[10:40] <fsphil> into space? :)
[10:41] <Laurenceb__> eroomde: been there, done that :P
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[10:41] <LukeSurl> Hello!
[10:41] <Laurenceb__> "you do not have permission to view this file"
[10:41] <fsphil> as the channel's resident party pooper, I'd just like to mention that it's not space unless you can get it above 100km :)
[10:41] <eroomde> Laurenceb__: yes
[10:41] <eroomde> very tiresome
[10:41] <eroomde> fixed now i think
[10:41] <Pilgrimpaul> im was hoping to launch from the school but have been told its too close to the sea... surely this depends on wind direction?
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[10:41] <eroomde> windows does seem to pullute everying it touches
[10:41] <eroomde> why won't someone just port solidwork to linux
[10:42] <eroomde> then we can kill it forever
[10:42] <Pilgrimpaul> thanks Phil lol
[10:42] <fsphil> in general the winds blow east
[10:42] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[10:42] <LukeSurl> So here at UEA, we're thinking of launching on Wednesday from Ely
[10:42] <eroomde> nice
[10:42] <eroomde> pretty spot
[10:42] <Laurenceb__> zinc air cells could improve picoballooning
[10:42] <LukeSurl> That's probably going to end up in the Wash though isn't it
[10:42] <eroomde> depends on the wind
[10:43] <eroomde> you're probably away that the majority of the early UK habs all launched from 10 miles south of you
[10:43] <eroomde> aware*
[10:43] <Laurenceb__> looks like around 70% higher energy density than lithium
[10:43] <mattbrejza> Pilgrimpaul: http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=90aef248618ea7f5ea69d209749db98a904bef04
[10:43] <eroomde> and they were generally ok
[10:43] <eroomde> though that's why the predictor was written, as a weapon in the fight against the wash and the north sea
[10:43] <Pilgrimpaul> thanks Matt
[10:44] <LukeSurl> Mmm, we've thinking of trying to find a more southerly launch site
[10:44] <Pilgrimpaul> how accurate is the predictor?
[10:44] <mattbrejza> pretty good within 2-3 days
[10:44] <Pilgrimpaul> awesome
[10:44] <mattbrejza> if it was launch day and that was the prediction i would be very confident in it
[10:45] <mattbrejza> also dartmoor is mostly tree-free which is nice
[10:45] <LukeSurl> Is anyone here from CUSF?
[10:46] <mattbrejza> LukeSurl: email them if you want to use their site
[10:46] <LukeSurl> You see through my subtle plan :P
[10:47] <mfa298_> LukeSurl: changing sites at short notice may be difficult unless it's a very small balloon as you'de need to get CAA approval for the new site (unless approval is already granted)
[10:47] <Pilgrimpaul> how do i find my launch altitude?
[10:47] <mattbrejza> Pilgrimpaul: launch altitude is 0m for plymouth
[10:48] <Pilgrimpaul> cheers mattbrejza
[10:48] <Pilgrimpaul> just trying the predictor out :)
[10:49] <Pilgrimpaul> i had to buy balloon in advance due to school budgets
[10:49] <mattbrejza> what is your budget?
[10:49] <cyclops> goys
[10:49] <Pilgrimpaul> bought a 1600g Hwoyee
[10:49] <LukeSurl> Cheers!
[10:49] <Pilgrimpaul> around 500
[10:49] <mattbrejza> already commited
[10:49] <cyclops> Lipoly Batteries dont like altitude and cold, do they?
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[10:49] <Darkside> cyclops: no
[10:49] <Darkside> cyclops: they will fail
[10:50] <mattbrejza> 500 is enough
[10:50] <Pilgrimpaul> yeah
[10:50] <cyclops> ill then have to change my cameras bats
[10:50] <Pilgrimpaul> and bought a 5ft rocketman parachute
[10:50] <cyclops> got 2 of http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__31556__HD_Wing_Camera_1280x720p_30fps_5MP_CMOS_NL_Warehouse_.html
[10:50] <mattbrejza> cyclops: lithuims are fine unless you try to charge below 0C
[10:50] <mattbrejza> but capacity is lower at low temp
[10:50] <Pilgrimpaul> 1 x spot gps messenger
[10:51] <mattbrejza> have you bought that yet?
[10:51] <cyclops> well
[10:51] <cyclops> its easy to change the batt
[10:51] <cyclops> and use a energizer lithium
[10:51] <Pilgrimpaul> yeah had to spend the money before end of term :)
[10:51] <Pilgrimpaul> :(
[10:51] <cyclops> Only cut a plastic and 2 wires
[10:51] <mattbrejza> because that battery is against the camera itll be kept warm so should be fine
[10:52] <Pilgrimpaul> 1 x gopro 3 cam
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[10:52] <cyclops> I have 2 of them in hand
[10:52] <Pilgrimpaul> and thats pretty much where im at :)
[10:52] <mattbrejza> Pilgrimpaul: the general way we track is via low power radio links, but the spot is a good backup
[10:52] <mattbrejza> tracker is around £30-40, but requires a radio to pick it up
[10:52] <cyclops> but mattbrejza but if it fails
[10:52] <Steve_2E0VET> Has anyone ever done any charity launches, advise on guess the burst height etc would be appriciated
[10:53] <mattbrejza> cyclops: i generally use two trackers
[10:53] <cyclops> I mean the camera
[10:53] <cyclops> You say the battery might work well
[10:53] <mattbrejza> sorry ignore
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[10:53] <mattbrejza> i mistook you for paul
[10:53] <cyclops> no problem
[10:54] <mattbrejza> turn the camera on, and see if it gets warm
[10:54] <mattbrejza> we flew a contour (internal lipo), and had it charge externally so it would last the flight
[10:54] <mattbrejza> they get a bit warm so the batery would have been >0
[10:55] <cyclops> so for example y could plug a Energizer
[10:55] <mattbrejza> but if you can remove that battery replacing with lithuims might be better i guess
[10:55] <cyclops> and charge the battery in flight
[10:55] <cyclops> well its only cutting the pastic cover
[10:55] <cyclops> and cables that attach to the battery
[10:56] <mattbrejza> youll haave to use a regulator to give 3.7V though?
[10:56] <mattbrejza> the camera will probably have one itself, but i guess the datasheet doesnt specify max input voltage
[10:57] <cyclops> lets have a look
[10:57] <cyclops> No idea about that :/
[10:58] <cyclops> 3,7V
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[11:01] <cyclops> yep the battery is 3.7volts
[11:01] <cyclops> and USB imput 5v
[11:01] <cyclops> So it has some sort of regulator between battery and Usb
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[11:01] <mattbrejza> you might be able to attach 4 AAs to USB
[11:02] <mattbrejza> but without a bit of reverse engineering to look at the circuit you cant tell
[11:02] <mattbrejza> or rather the ICs and their max input voltage
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[11:02] <cyclops> ICs?
[11:03] <mattbrejza> chip
[11:03] <rharrison_> cyclops, stick with the lipoly and use thich insulation in the box it will not get much below -2 and in the main be between 5-15C with highs of 20+C
[11:03] <rharrison_> thick
[11:03] <mattbrejza> i would have thought the camera's internal battery would still not last long enough
[11:04] <cyclops> maybe add a usb charger?
[11:04] <rharrison_> mattbrejza, now that is a good point. Depends on duty cycle. Pics / Video etc ...
[11:05] <mattbrejza> yea probably best to buy one unless you want to do some electronics
[11:05] <rharrison_> and of course duration of flight
[11:05] <mattbrejza> but tbh you can get premade regulators that just wire up
[11:05] <rharrison_> assumed it's an up down one rather than a floater
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[11:06] <cyclops> yes its an up down
[11:06] <Lunar_LanderU> interesting that B-7 will pass by Osnabruck, if it stays aloft for so long
[11:06] <mattbrejza> bbiab, if pilgrampaul returns he can try suspaceflight@gmail.com
[11:11] <cyclops> maybe buying that, a USB battery and pluging it
[11:12] <cyclops> Would suffice for the flight duration
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[11:37] <Laurenceb__> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/zincair_appman.pdf
[11:39] <Laurenceb__> http://www.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Technical_Bulletins/Zinc%20Air%20Tech%20Bulletin.pdf
[11:39] <Laurenceb__> nice
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[11:43] <Laurenceb__> looks like you need to aim for 100hour + flight
[11:51] <Laurenceb__> but hearing aid seems limited to 650mAh :-/
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[11:55] <Laurenceb__> http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/zincairprismatichandbook.pdf
[11:56] <Laurenceb__> http://www.cloudspace.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/OH-YEAH.jpeg
[11:59] <cyclops> mattbrejza: could I use a 3,7V lithium battery?
[11:59] <cyclops> like the one on a Mobile phone
[11:59] <Laurenceb__> PP42 looks like it
[12:01] <cyclops> i found a samsung one with 2450mah
[12:01] <cyclops> and 3,7V
[12:02] <PE2G> Hi all, what happened to B-7?
[12:03] <Laurenceb__> button cell died
[12:04] <Laurenceb__> looks like a PP425 would be better
[12:07] <Laurenceb__> but hard to get :-/
[12:07] <Laurenceb__> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/887/2/
[12:07] <Laurenceb__> wow
[12:08] <Laurenceb__> http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/887/energy_density.jpg
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[12:21] <SpeedEvil> Seem to have vanished off the market
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[12:21] <Babs> ping daveake
[12:21] <Laurenceb__> yeah :(
[12:21] <daveake> pinged
[12:21] <Laurenceb__> want to buy some
[12:22] <fsphil> it might not have worked
[12:22] <fsphil> or had some flaw that meant they couldn't keep selling it
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[12:24] <Babs> Just been on flickr - no way that you are going to be able to say that no animals were harmed in the making of your next HAB project
[12:24] <Iain_G4SGX> Whats happened to B7?
[12:24] <daveake> He has the right stuff(ing)
[12:24] <daveake> Well used to have
[12:24] <fsphil> B7 went to heaven
[12:25] <Babs> I've just snorted into my diet coke making everyone in the office look around. thanks for that.
[12:25] <daveake> np :)
[12:25] <Babs> are you going to do a baumgartner esque leap?
[12:25] <daveake> yup
[12:25] <Babs> quality.
[12:25] <daveake> With more altitude and less attitude
[12:25] <fsphil> only without all the nonsense
[12:25] <daveake> see above
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb__: While searching - I found - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SOLAR-LITHIUM-ION-LiFePO4-BATTERY-FUEL-CELL-CAR-BUS-CARAVAN-RV-MOTORHOME-COACH-/151071998157?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232c97c0cd
[12:25] <Babs> first floaters, now plush toy innovation in HAB. it is a golden age.
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> Which is a pretty unusual vehicle.
[12:26] <Babs> As long as he has a hissy fit half way through the project complaining that his fur coat is too claustrophobic that will be fine.
[12:27] <daveake> Like I said, more altitude and less attitude :)
[12:27] <daveake> He ways 129g, so with the main payload and chute the total should be around 400g
[12:28] <daveake> Then it's just down to which day the 1600g hwoyee was made :p
[12:28] <daveake> er
[12:28] <daveake> Weighs ^^
[12:28] <daveake> My fingers misheard me
[12:28] <Babs> He looks bigger in the photo
[12:28] <Babs> but i said the same about Tom Cruise
[12:28] <daveake> He's pretty small - use the Pi as reference
[12:28] <daveake> lol
[12:29] <daveake> Only a matter of time till Cruise does a Baumgartner movie
[12:29] <Babs> you should put some kind of bladder in him so he becomes a fat b on the way up.
[12:29] <daveake> "Tom, for the first time ever, you'll be able to look down at people"
[12:30] <Babs> sni9gger
[12:30] <Babs> snigger even
[12:30] <Laurenceb__> make sure you dont leave the s out of that
[12:31] <Babs> Yes Laurenceb, there are a lot worse typos i could have done with that one
[12:31] <Babs> daveake - half expecting Leobodnar to come on and chastise you for leaving the label on the bear. He could make a whole other tracker for the superfluous weight that represents.
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[12:32] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb__: there also used to be zinc-air batteries sold for mobile phone charging. Those seem to have gone away too
[12:32] <daveake> If you check other photos you will see that the label is gone :)
[12:32] <Laurenceb__> oh yeah i remeber
[12:32] <Laurenceb__> guess you could diy one...
[12:33] <Babs> daveake - you are a pro
[12:33] <Laurenceb__> actually - 6 x hearing aid cells is as good as that energizer thingy
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[12:36] <Laurenceb__> wonder if you could solder to the hearing aid cells
[12:39] <gonzo__> is the energy density any good with button cells?
[12:40] <Laurenceb__> yes, with zinc air its very good
[12:40] <mattbrejza> max current from one?
[12:40] <Laurenceb__> read the stuff i linked earlier
[12:41] <Laurenceb__> you want to reduce the current and stay above 0C
[12:41] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb__: they did not work, that what B-7 was trying to prove. Even opening extra holes for air access did not work
[12:41] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[12:41] <LeoBodnar> OK to use on the ground inside granny's ear though
[12:41] <mattbrejza> 20mA
[12:41] <Laurenceb__> what cell was it flying?
[12:42] <Laurenceb__> extra holes wouldnt help - limit is at the catalyst
[12:42] <LeoBodnar> 6x PR44
[12:42] Action: Laurenceb__ googles
[12:42] <gonzo__> what? speak up....
[12:42] <LeoBodnar> No, extra holes do help but not when it's freezing and @7000m
[12:42] <Laurenceb__> oh
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[12:43] <Laurenceb__> its 600 + mah
[12:43] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hi Lee M6DRS
[12:43] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: 6 in parallel?
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[12:44] <M6DRS> G0TDJ_Steve: hi Steve how cool
[12:44] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good to have you here Lee M6DRS
[12:45] <Pilgrimpaul> hi, is it possible to find any launches happening near Plymouth? :)
[12:45] <M6DRS> \nick M6DRS-Lee
[12:45] <mattbrejza> the nearest ull get Pilgrimpaul is southampto where i am
[12:46] <M6DRS> nick/ M6DRS_Lee
[12:46] <x-f> /nick M6DRS-Lee :)
[12:46] <G0TDJ_Steve> He'll get there eventually LOL
[12:47] Nick change: M6DRS -> M6DRS_Lee
[12:47] <G0TDJ_Steve> Cheers x-f
[12:47] <G0TDJ_Steve> YAY!
[12:48] <M6DRS_Lee> x-f: thanks for the info
[12:49] <x-f> np :)
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[12:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> M6DRS_Lee: Here you go - Ping
[12:50] <LeoBodnar> Yes Laurenceb__
[12:50] <Laurenceb__> damn
[12:50] <Laurenceb__> thats very bad then
[12:51] <LeoBodnar> You probably need supercap to get you over current spikes
[12:52] <Laurenceb__> yeah - the energy is still going to be there
[12:52] <Laurenceb__> you just need it to react properly
[12:53] <LeoBodnar> I don't know how Rint rises with cold/air starvation
[12:53] <LeoBodnar> Obviously a lot
[12:53] <G0TDJ_Steve> M6DRS_Lee: Ping
[12:54] <Laurenceb__> http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/zincairprismatichandbook.pdf
[12:55] <Laurenceb__> http://www.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Technical_Bulletins/Zinc%20Air%20Tech%20Bulletin.pdf
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[12:55] <ibanezmatt13> Good afternoon
[12:55] <Willdude123> I'm still having trouble deciding which UART to use and also understanding their TTYo names.
[12:56] <ibanezmatt13> ping UpuWork
[12:57] <UpuWork> hey ibanezmatt13
[12:57] <ibanezmatt13> Afternoon UpuWork :)
[12:58] <ibanezmatt13> I've ordered some of that soldering braid so that when I attach some new cables onto the board I'll be able to clean some of that solder off
[12:58] <ibanezmatt13> desoldering braid*
[12:59] <UpuWork> good plan
[12:59] <Babs> i've only ever succeeded in burning my fingers with desoldering braid
[12:59] <Babs> (and other positive encouraging statements)
[12:59] <Babs> ;-)
[12:59] <ibanezmatt13> I'll be careful :)
[13:00] <Willdude123> ping SpeedEvil
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> ?
[13:00] <Babs> I think its just a case of being more talented than me at the dark arts of soldering. not difficult ;-)
[13:00] <ibanezmatt13> I'm not good either to be honest. I jyust
[13:01] <ibanezmatt13> It's extremely warm over here; too warm
[13:02] <Willdude123> SpeedEvil: Sorry you're the only guy I know with a BBB in here.
[13:02] <Willdude123> How are the serial ports labelled?
[13:02] <SpeedEvil> Nope.
[13:02] <Willdude123> Wait
[13:02] Jonathan_G4KLX (~naylorjs@host-2-100-240-85.as13285.net) joined #highaltitude.
[13:02] <Willdude123> Must me the wrong guy.
[13:02] <daveake> I did mention the relative lack of BBB HAB support to you before Willdude123 ....
[13:02] <Willdude123> I know.
[13:02] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Does anyone know what frequency B-7 is on?
[13:02] <SpeedEvil> I'm in the channel, not got one.
[13:02] <Willdude123> Oh right sorry
[13:03] <Willdude123> daveake: It's not really a HAB question, just seems nobody around in the Beaglebone channel.
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[13:03] <cyclops> guys how could I get 3.7V from Energizer AA?
[13:04] <daveake> Yes but you need someone who's done serial on BBB. *everyone* here will have done serial on Arduino and/or Pi and/or PIC
[13:04] <mattbrejza> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?CMP=i-ddd7-00001003&sku=1736768 cyclops
[13:05] <cyclops> and, If I use a normal LIt-IO Battery of lets say 2500mah
[13:05] <cyclops> At low Temeperature how much will be lost?
[13:06] <mattbrejza> if youre attaching an external battery might as well use AA lithuims?
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[13:06] <fsphil> Jonathan_G4KLX: it's run out of battery power, no longer transmitting
[13:06] <cyclops> I mean
[13:06] <fsphil> but it was on 434.500 if you want to take a look :)
[13:07] <cyclops> I have a mobile phone battery
[13:07] <mikestir-work> Willdude123: do you still think something else has the port open? Have you tried "lsof | grep ttyo"?
[13:07] <cyclops> that its 2500mah at 3.7V
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[13:07] <Willdude123> mikestir-work: Will check.
[13:07] <Willdude123> mikestir-work: lsof doesn't work on this distro.
[13:07] <Willdude123> I'm just checking the SRM.
[13:08] <cyclops> But I dont know how many ma decreases the battery due to the low temp
[13:08] <daveake> Try ps -ef | grep <tty port>
[13:08] <Jonathan_G4KLX> fsphil: Thanks, shame about that. It has an interesting path.
[13:08] <mattbrejza> do you have the daatsheet
[13:09] <mattbrejza> also what a stupid time for IEEExlpore to have maintaince ¬.¬
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[13:09] <cyclops> one sec, try to find
[13:12] <Laurenceb__> http://fl23200u.form2go.com/uk-isp-filtering-select.html
[13:13] <mikestir-work> anyone familiar with gqrx noticed any strangeness with its SSB demod? particularly that it only works properly on alternate presses of the USB/LSB button
[13:13] <fsphil> not noticed that here
[13:14] <mikestir-work> you're using fcd though aren't you?
[13:15] <mikestir-work> the other issue is that I always have to set it to LSB to get the RTTY shift the right way around
[13:15] <mikestir-work> makes me think there might be a problem with its interpretation of what is I and what is Q from the rtlsdr
[13:15] <cyclops> nope cant find the datasheet
[13:16] <fsphil> mikestir-work: you might have fldigi set to RTTY, which is backwards
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[13:16] <mikestir-work> ah right. so it should be RTTYR?
[13:16] <fsphil> RTTYR or USB
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[13:16] <fsphil> I just use USB, less confusing
[13:17] <daveake> Yesterday in my SSDV demo it wasn't decoding at first
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[13:18] <daveake> Then noticed I was tuned the wrong side
[13:18] <mikestir-work> well that certainly makes more sense now, since gqrx seemed to be the expect way around with my own test transmissions
[13:18] <mikestir-work> expected*
[13:18] <fsphil> I must have another go at getting gqrx working tonight
[13:19] <fsphil> my last error was _libdir resolving into /usr/lib instead of /usr/lib64
[13:19] <cyclops> nope mattbrejza no datasheet
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[13:23] <cyclops> BTW with 3 AA (4.5V) going to a USB imput and then to a 3.7V Lipo battery that charges with 4.1V will be enough
[13:23] <cyclops> ?
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[13:32] <cyclops> YES
[13:32] <cyclops> it works
[13:32] <cyclops> Problem solved
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[13:32] Nick change: [1]iain_g4sgx -> iain_g4sgx
[13:33] <eroomde> the bin in our firing bay control room has, i notice
[13:34] <eroomde> 6 empty packets of jaffa cakes
[13:34] <eroomde> and 3 empty peronis
[13:34] <eroomde> a coding session happened here
[13:35] <daveake> lol
[13:35] <daveake> how many cans of Pepsi Max?
[13:35] <daveake> Or do you guys have Jolt Cola?
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[13:39] <G4SGX_iain> Is B8 launching this arvo?
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[13:40] <Steve_2E0VET> Does the GPS antenna have to be outside the payload or will it work enclosed within the payload
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[13:41] <daveake> Inside is fine so long as you don't use a foil blanket or something!
[13:42] <daveake> Best to keep it away from other electronics, and near the top of the payload, if poss
[13:42] <Laurenceb__> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=265246
[13:42] <Steve_2E0VET> I was thinking inside a polystyrene ball
[13:43] <Laurenceb__> fitting is working XD
[13:43] <daveake> Steve_2E0VET Yes no problem
[13:43] <mattbrejza> unless you make your box metallic
[13:46] <cyclops> and no "thermic blanket"
[13:46] <cyclops> BTW
[13:46] <cyclops> the polysttyrene container thickness
[13:47] <cyclops> Ah mattbrejza just solved the problem
[13:47] <cyclops> Wired 3AA, so 4.5 plugged a microusb and the camera works well
[13:47] <mattbrejza> with the internal battery removed?
[13:48] <cyclops> I think ill left the battere
[13:48] <cyclops> Just in case
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[13:48] <mattbrejza> well providing the 3AAs can power/charge it, should be fine
[13:48] <cyclops> Yes
[13:49] <cyclops> I was relieved when the camera powered the charging led
[13:49] <cyclops> About the poluestilene how thick is recommended
[13:49] <cyclops> to isulate all well
[13:49] <mattbrejza> the main factor is how well sealed the box is rather than thickness
[13:52] <cyclops> to join the parts I was thinking about some sort of strong duct tape
[13:53] <cyclops> well the halves
[13:54] <Steve_2E0VET> O was going to attempt to get it all in a hollowed out 10cm ball, could always use 2 of them
[13:54] <cyclops> I was thinking the same
[13:54] <cyclops> But maybe bigger ball
[13:54] <daveake> You can buy hollow balls
[13:55] <cyclops> and then paint them with a nice color
[13:55] <daveake> The 100mm ones are solid the >=150mm ones are hollow
[13:55] <cyclops> ill get a hollow one
[13:55] <daveake> For paint, use fluorescent acrylic
[13:55] <daveake> Reeves System 3 is good
[13:56] <cyclops> ill write that down
[13:56] <Steve_2E0VET> I cannot find any cheap hollow balls
[13:57] <cyclops> cheap for you is?
[13:57] <daveake> ebay, HobbyCraft
[13:58] <cyclops> in spain
[13:58] <cyclops> 3¬ 16cm hollow
[13:58] <cyclops> http://mitiendadearte.com/magento/manualidades/porexpan/media-esfera-de-porexpan-hueca-2-unidades.html
[13:58] <Steve_2E0VET> That's pretty cheap
[13:59] <cyclops> and seems to be quite thick
[13:59] <Lunar_LanderU> ah that electrometer is the most difficult thing so far
[13:59] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[14:00] <Lunar_LanderU> craziest thing: if it resets by shorting out the electrodes, you can still vary the output voltage when changing the field during the reset
[14:00] <cyclops> BTW its better a sphere or cube to take photographs?
[14:00] <Lunar_LanderU> which is not good
[14:00] <cyclops> any difference in stability?
[14:00] <Steve_2E0VET> Good thinking
[14:01] <cyclops> By shape
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[14:01] <cyclops> I think spheres offer less resistance to air
[14:03] <cyclops> but maybe are more prone to spin
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[14:08] <x-f> spinnin
[14:08] <x-f> spinning will give you panorama :)
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[14:10] <Steve_2E0VET> Probably a debate for when more users are on
[14:10] <fsphil> having a sphere also means you can draw a face on it
[14:10] <fsphil> very important
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> Alternate packaging - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXskgcu7I1A
[14:13] <cyclops> i agree fsphil
[14:13] <cyclops> Put cameras on the eyes
[14:13] <cyclops> And its a first person view
[14:14] <cyclops> SpeedEvil: we would need a bit more than a 2000g balloon to lift that :P
[14:15] <cyclops> x-f panorama if it spins slowly
[14:16] <cyclops> of not it will be a Burryrama
[14:16] <cyclops> *blurryrama
[14:16] <Willdude123> Right
[14:16] <Willdude123> I've discovered that this is probably due to 3v3 serial not working on the board.
[14:17] <fsphil> there's enough light up there to get fairly good pictures even if it's spinning quite quickly
[14:17] <Willdude123> Because I've tried it with another serial port.
[14:17] <Willdude123> I will try the ftdi again, with this port.
[14:20] <Willdude123> UpuWork: Could you sell me one of these with header on? http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=51 like the 5v one has?
[14:21] <cyclops> perfcet fsphil , and for video too i supose
[14:22] <eroomde> Willdude123: sorry i've been away for a day or two. but well done on the progress
[14:22] <Willdude123> What progress? :)
[14:22] <eroomde> looks like you're narrowing the issue down well
[14:22] <eroomde> well info is progress :)
[14:22] <Willdude123> Heh
[14:23] <Willdude123> I think the issue is with the board.
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[14:23] <Willdude123> *the breakout board
[14:23] <Willdude123> Somehow.
[14:24] <Willdude123> Though I doubt that UpuWork in his mighty wisdom (not sarcasm) could have assembled it wrong.
[14:25] <mattbrejza> i reckon Willdude123 you could blag yourself one of these: http://www.saleae.com/students
[14:26] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: Would that help?
[14:26] <mattbrejza> for when you have no idea whats going on
[14:27] <Willdude123> Hmm
[14:27] <Willdude123> Anyone here an engineering prof?
[14:27] <Willdude123> Well, I have a slight idea of what's going on.
[14:28] <Willdude123> eroomde: Maybe tx and rx are shorting?
[14:28] <mattbrejza> is there a teacher who is supportive, i would guess they would want to encourage young talent even if youre a long way off uni
[14:28] <Willdude123> I'll take a break for a while, to stop myself being frustrated.
[14:28] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: Not really.
[14:29] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: Pfft young talent.
[14:30] <mattbrejza> should i have said young 'prod it until it works'
[14:30] <Willdude123> That's not what I do.
[14:30] <mattbrejza> swear at it until it works?
[14:30] <Willdude123> Maybe
[14:31] <mattbrejza> either way, you can always ask them
[14:31] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: Well, when I edited wikipedia, we proded until it works.
[14:31] <Willdude123> Hmm
[14:31] <Willdude123> May do.
[14:32] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: You don't get the pun there, do you?
[14:32] <mattbrejza> i am only paying half attention
[14:35] <mikestir-work> Willdude123: Did you ever try connecting the BBB to a pc with an ftdi cable?
[14:35] <Willdude123> Yes.
[14:35] <mikestir-work> did it work?
[14:35] <mikestir-work> both ways
[14:36] <Willdude123> No, there was a load of spew coming out of the BBB tx, even on boot.
[14:36] <daveake> such as?
[14:36] <Willdude123> Err. What you get when you fail in decoding rtty, random non-sensical stuff.
[14:36] <Willdude123> I'm on a different port now.
[14:37] <mikestir-work> yes but the baud rate might have been different
[14:37] <daveake> If it's like raspbian on the Pi, you need to disable the kernel logging to the serial port
[14:37] <mikestir-work> out of interest, what does cat /proc/cmdline say?
[14:37] <daveake> And the baud rate will be 115,200 probably
[14:37] <Willdude123> Hmm, tx to the ntx2 worked, and also, the UBX wouldn't rx when plugged directly into the ftdi.
[14:38] <Willdude123> daveake: I don't think it is, there's one debugging port.
[14:38] <Willdude123> mikestir-work: console=ttyO0,115200n8 quiet drm.debug=7 root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 ro rootfstype=ext4 rootwait
[14:38] <Willdude123> ttyO0 is the debug port.
[14:38] <daveake> The BBB isn't going to send random rubbish. It will be sending something (and you have the wrong baud rate) or nothing at all and you wired it wrong/
[14:39] <mikestir-work> ok. just worth checking because the kernel lets you specify multiple consoles
[14:39] <Willdude123> Okay, I'll try it again on this port.
[14:40] <mikestir-work> or 3rd possibility if it's a multi-purpose pin is that the wrong peripheral is selected
[14:40] <Willdude123> daveake: Did I mention loopback seems to work on this port?
[14:40] <daveake> No, but I would expect it to
[14:41] <Babs> cyclops. key thing is to have three cords extending from the top of the payload rather than four (whatever the shape) to the parachute
[14:41] <mikestir-work> I would suggest trying to get to a point where you can type messages both ways between the bbb in minicom and the pc in putty/hyperterminal/whatever
[14:42] <daveake> If loopback works, and you don't see anything unusual (i.e. only what you send to it), then as you can see ublox data when you connect to that, the issue is you don't have Tx from the BBB connected to Rx on the Ublox. Or you do and it's shorted to something else.
[14:42] <Babs> only way to get it really stable (thing about a three legged stool vs. wobbly table)
[14:42] <Babs> *think
[14:43] <cyclops> True
[14:43] <cyclops> So 3 cords
[14:43] <cyclops> Thanks i would have put 4
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[14:43] <cyclops> thanks Babs
[14:44] <Willdude123> OK it works and I can rx on the ftdi.
[14:44] <Babs> I did my first payload with four cords before i worked it out inadvertently by building a triangular payload
[14:45] <cyclops> well a sphere is easy to hold by 3 strings
[14:45] <cyclops> in a cube well kind strange
[14:46] <daveake> Willdude123 Now connect the BBB to the Ublox (Tx/Rx/GND) *and* connect the BBB Tx/Gnd to the FTDI Rx/GND
[14:47] <daveake> So you can monitor what's being sent to the ublox
[14:47] <Willdude123> Oh
[14:47] <Willdude123> It's working now.
[14:47] <Willdude123> Must have just been a dodgy connection.
[14:48] <daveake> I said that yesterday
[14:48] <Willdude123> I know you did.
[14:49] <daveake> Listen to Uncle David
[14:49] <daveake> He's usually right, the git
[14:50] <Willdude123> Sorry
[14:50] <eroomde> :)
[14:50] <eroomde> it's always silly things
[14:50] <daveake> Far better than "I tried everything it no work I'll give up now"
[14:50] <eroomde> rarely the satisfying intellectual problems
[14:50] <eroomde> usually dodgy connectors
[14:50] <daveake> #1 most likely point of failure
[14:51] <Willdude123> I did listen, I checked the connections as best I could, I unplugged it and plugged it back in again, but only now I've pushed it in really hard, it works.
[14:51] <daveake> Do you have a DMM?
[14:51] <Lunar_LanderU> daveake: exactly, this electrometer is really difficult, but we are getting towards having it operate right
[14:51] <Willdude123> Nope.
[14:51] <daveake> Get one. Cheaper than a BBB.
[14:51] <Lunar_LanderU> and that is just due to being on it and not giving up
[14:51] <Willdude123> My granddad has a huge multitester though.
[14:52] <daveake> I bet
[14:52] <eroomde> see if you can borrow it. it's very useful
[14:52] <daveake> But £5-£10 on a DMM will help you *enormously*
[14:52] <mfa298_> it's still worth getting your own DMM so cheap and so useful.
[14:52] <Babs> *looks up to 15:51* eroomde's law about always using decent connectors is proven again
[14:53] <Willdude123> Might get one from maplin just so I can try their 90 minute delivery.
[14:53] <daveake> If nothing else, it means that you can say "yes I checked the connectors properly" without fibbing
[14:53] <eroomde> 90% of my early problems were cables and connectors
[14:53] <eroomde> much less so know since i got serious about it
[14:53] <mfa298_> I suspect their 90 minute delivery will cost more than the DMM.
[14:54] <fsphil> I used to (badly) solder wires to stripboard. then I discovered crimp headers, and the world became a nicer place
[14:54] <Babs> 90% of my early problems were less electronics related. The fact that I was born in Wolverhampton were responsible for at least 50% of them.
[14:54] <daveake> At the "Raspberry Jam" yesterday, one of the presenters did a bunch of demos. Two of those were on breadboard.
[14:54] <daveake> I cringed in advance.
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[14:55] <daveake> Breadboard is basically a highly efficient problem creation device
[14:55] <eroomde> lol
[14:55] <eroomde> frame that and stick it on the wall
[14:56] <daveake> I mean, 1000s of dodgy connectors all in one place
[14:56] <daveake> Plus crosstalk
[14:57] <Willdude123> £4 for delivery befor 7pm today, not bad.
[14:57] <mattbrejza> its just like getting delivery from a takeaway
[14:58] <mattbrejza> i wonder if theres a bloke on a scooter branded as maplin
[14:58] <Willdude123> But the cool thing is it's a huge gimmick.
[14:58] <Babs> it just demonstrates how large their gross margin is when they can take a loss on the delivery costs
[14:59] <mattbrejza> if farnell did that then it would be a compeltely different matter
[14:59] <fsphil> hopefully not as many crashes as their website
[14:59] <mikestir-work> daveake: this will make you cringe: pic.twitter.com/dbmBmLJ6Q2
[15:00] <daveake> jeez
[15:00] <daveake> Actually quite neat, but blimey
[15:00] <mfa298_> I noticed when reserving something at argos the other day they have a similar delivery within 90 minutes service (I think with the same people as maplin)
[15:00] <fsphil> the early amiga prototypes where done on breadboard
[15:01] <mikestir-work> fsphil: presumably why they had to invent "guru meditation"
[15:01] <fsphil> indeed
[15:01] <fsphil> I've seen many of those
[15:01] <Babs> to be fair, the tape loading of the actual Spectrum probably has a similar failure rate to that breadboard
[15:01] <Willdude123> Babs: It might not be a loss.
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[15:02] <Babs> Willdude123 - unless you live next door to a Maplin, it's a loss
[15:02] <Babs> for once, this is my specialist area
[15:02] <Willdude123> For me or there?
[15:02] <Willdude123> *for me or them
[15:02] <Babs> doesn't matter Willdude123. If you live next door to a Maplin, they live next door to you.
[15:03] <Willdude123> I don't though
[15:03] <Babs> Unless you are at the end of a one way wormhole, but this is no channel for quantum theory
[15:03] <Babs> then they are doing it at a loss. trust me.
[15:04] <Willdude123> Well, if they contract with shutl, they're probably the ones taking the loss.
[15:04] <Babs> Further evidence: 1 resistor, 59p. 1 bag of 100 resistors, £2.49.
[15:04] <Willdude123> But I trust you.
[15:04] <Babs> Willdude123 - coolio. On this, I would.
[15:04] <Willdude123> Why would they take a loss?
[15:04] <mfa298_> at £4 for the delivery they need at least two deliveries an hour just to pay the guy.
[15:04] <mikestir-work> 59p for a resistor?!!!111
[15:04] <Babs> On anything else on this channel, I wouldn't.
[15:04] <mikestir-work> is it made of unobtainium?
[15:05] <Willdude123> Well, it's £0.75 in fuel to get there.
[15:05] <Babs> Nope, they've just worked out how much they can charge for it because you can't get it anywhere else nearby.
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[15:05] <Babs> See also: the price of Wrigley's extra chewing gum in railway stations vs. anywhere else in the UK
[15:05] <Babs> although now we really have moved off topic.
[15:06] <Babs> So back on a little bit. interesting thing on the development of 3-D printing. http://qz.com/106483/3d-printing-will-explode-in-2014-thanks-to-the-expiration-of-key-patents/
[15:07] <Babs> laser sintering is the way forward if you can do it, far more hard wearing than BABSHAB components, which are perishing before my eyes.
[15:07] <Willdude123> Babs: I still don't understand why they'd lose money on it.
[15:08] <fsphil> this is why everything on a ferry is so expensive
[15:08] <fsphil> where else you gonna go? :)
[15:08] <Willdude123> But it's not that expensive,
[15:08] <Willdude123> You could get it from argos.
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[15:09] <Babs> Willdude123 - purchase price for a widget , £0.01. Sell for £10. gross profit £9.99. Purchase price for a delivery, £6 (say), Sell for £4. Total purchase price £6.01, Total revenue £14, total profit £7.99
[15:09] <Willdude123> Ah right
[15:09] <Babs> Yes, its less than £9.99 profit for selling it you directly, but its still additive vs. you not buying it.
[15:09] <gonzo__> I'm not sure why this 3d printing is being hailed so. It's only cnc milling with less mess to clear up
[15:10] <mfa298_> Willdude123: if it's £0.75 fuel costs for you to get it from maplin then £4 is fairly expensive
[15:10] <gonzo__> ok some profiles would need to be multipart. But that is probably the minority of most of the applications
[15:10] <Willdude123> But then there's the fact I CBA to go to maplin and deal with those incompetent buggars.
[15:10] <Willdude123> That fact alone is a service.
[15:11] <gonzo__> cost of fuel is only a small part of the cost of running a vehicle
[15:12] <mfa298_> and for a delivery service like that vehicle costs arn't the only costs. In a lot of businsses people cost a fair bit (and they cost more than what you're paying them)
[15:13] <gonzo__> vehicle lease, servicing, consumables, cost of garaging overnight
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[15:22] <Willdude123> Well it's pretty much downhill from here.
[15:22] <Willdude123> Splitting up GPGGA is pretty easy.
[15:23] <Willdude123> I'm gonna leave it there for today
[15:23] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: Is that thing just a fancy multimeter?
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[15:24] <mattbrejza> its a digital logic analyser
[15:24] <mfa298_> Willdude123: the salae ?
[15:24] <Willdude123> Yeah
[15:24] <mfa298_> it's a lot more than just a fancy dmm
[15:24] <mattbrejza> so it captures data for a length of time, then displays up to 8 waveforms on the screen that you can scroll through
[15:25] <mattbrejza> and it analyses the protocols to revent you having to
[15:25] <daveake> It's wonderful
[15:26] <Willdude123> that is cool
[15:26] <Willdude123> Even if I got it at student price, I'm not sure it'd be worth it, not sure if I can afford it *and* and antenna
[15:27] <mfa298_> a very useful bit of kit for working out whats wrong with a digital connection
[15:27] <mattbrejza> thats why you ask for a free one :)
[15:28] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: Despite being the English award winner for lower school, I'm gonna need a hand writing this email/
[15:29] <mattbrejza> im not the best to help, but just explain a little about yourself and youll be suprsed what you can get for free
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[15:30] <Willdude123> Uhm I'm a 13 year old guy who gets frustrated and suicidal sometimes because of electronics for a HAB project not working and to prevent me from being frustrated, give me one for free,
[15:30] <Willdude123> That OK?
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[15:31] <eroomde> yep perfect
[15:31] <eroomde> send that
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge - Oooh!
[15:31] <Willdude123> Hmm]
[15:31] <Willdude123> OK
[15:31] <Willdude123> Might edit it a bit.
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> I would have been somewhat tempted - but for the 28 day warranty, and dual-boot not the ability to run android apps under ubuntu.
[15:32] <Willdude123> Uhm I'm a 13 year old guy who gets frustrated sometimes because of electronics for a HAB project not working and to prevent me from being frustrated, give me one for free
[15:32] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> Afternoon
[15:33] <Willdude123> How do I start it?
[15:34] lurking (59f194c4@gateway/web/freenode/ip. left irc: Quit: Page closed
[15:34] <Willdude123> I have ideas, just no idea how to start off the email.
[15:34] <Babs> "Dear"
[15:34] <eroomde> Dear Sir/Madam
[15:34] <eroomde> My name is William H. Dover, aged 13-and-a-half
[15:35] <eroomde> since i was 4 I have had a passion for physics and space and I have recently started my very own high altitude weather balloon project to study the edge of the atmosphere
[15:36] <eroomde> as part of my work, I am building a gps tracking system so that I know where my balloon is. Some of the guides on the internet recommend that I use a multimeter to help me test and understand my electronics. However, a multimeter is more pocketmoney than I have this month
[15:36] <eroomde> etc
[15:37] <Laurenceb__> Ben Dover
[15:37] <daveake> lol
[15:37] <daveake> My try:
[15:37] <daveake> Dear Sirs,
[15:37] <daveake> I'm a 13-year-old pupil hoping to study electronics and software at university when I'm old enough. I'm excited by space technology and I've started on my own high altitude balloon flight using a Beagleboard.
[15:37] <daveake> I'm making good progress but I've had a few problems so far with interfacing to GPS and other devices, and chatting to some experts online they tell me that they all use your 8-channel logic analyser to solve these things. I've looked at your site and it seems to be a great product and would be just what I need, but I'm afraid it's well above what my pocket money can stretch too!
[15:37] <daveake> So I realise I'm being a bit cheeky here, but is there any way I could buy one from you at low cost or even for free? It would really help me in my goal and my education
[15:37] <daveake> Yours etc.
[15:37] <daveake> just fix speling
[15:38] <Willdude123> *beaglebone black
[15:39] <fsphil> that's the spirit
[15:39] <Willdude123> And I also need to remove the <daveake>
[15:40] <mattbrejza> it doesnt have to be long, if you were the person who reads these you wouldnt want to be reading through a 2000 word essay detailing why you should get one
[15:40] <Brace> Laurenceb__: glad I'm not the only one who thought 'should have been called Ben'
[15:40] <gonzo__> mots people get bored after thje first few lines of an emai/doc
[15:41] <daveake> Yep. Keep it short. Make sure it's clear what you're asking for
[15:44] <Willdude123> I think I should use a synonym for cheeky.
[15:44] <Willdude123> Something more formal.
[15:44] <Willdude123> Sassy!
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[15:44] <Willdude123> Impudent
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> sassy is wrong
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> cheeky is probably about right
[15:46] <Willdude123> Audacious
[15:47] <Willdude123> Dear Sir,
[15:47] <Willdude123> I'm a 13-year-old pupil hoping to study electronics and software at university when I'm old enough to do so. I'm excited by space technology and I've started on my own high altitude balloon flight project using a Beaglebone Black. I'm making good progress but I've had a few problems so far with interfacing to GPS and other devices, which I have due to the generosity of other enthusiasts and chatting to some experts online they tell me that they
[15:47] <daveake> cheeky
[15:47] <daveake> Listen to me
[15:47] <Willdude123> I realise I'm being a bit audacious here, but is there any way I could buy one from you at low cost or even for free? It would really help me in my goal and my education.
[15:47] <Willdude123> Yours Faithfully,
[15:47] <Willdude123> William Dover
[15:47] <Willdude123> Okay
[15:47] <Laurenceb__> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge
[15:47] <Laurenceb__> your surname is Dover?
[15:48] <mattbrejza> hmm $32000000
[15:48] <mattbrejza> thats a lot of zeros
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb__: I think I did that a bit ago. Looks shiny.
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately, 40K units is probably about what you need to get for that class of hardware to get 'cheap'
[15:49] <Laurenceb__> im confused by the saphire bit
[15:49] <Laurenceb__> sapphire
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> And at 'just' 5K say many vendors might not talk to you.
[15:49] <Laurenceb__> doesnt look feasible to me
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Why?
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> You can get sapphire windows.
[15:49] <Laurenceb__> http://www.goodfellow.com/catalogue/GFCat4J.php?ewd_token=7JNhFkzzLliCI0mteynAzOwW04C4dG&n=jp1FHNaiEcE6hUaDplZ54DjXvxku3b
[15:49] <Laurenceb__> yeah sure
[15:49] <Laurenceb__> check the price
[15:49] <Willdude123> Laurenceb__: Your surname is Baxter?
[15:49] <Willdude123> Wait
[15:50] <Willdude123> It is isn't it?
[15:50] <Willdude123> Laurenceb__: Why are you surprised?
[15:50] <Laurenceb__> im just sad your first name isnt Ben
[15:50] <Willdude123> Laurenceb__: I get that a lot.
[15:51] <Willdude123> I don't get the point of this Ubuntu Edge thing.
[15:51] <Willdude123> Is it not just another smartphone?
[15:51] <Willdude123> Also $32 Million Dollars?
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: Android and Ios basically suck.
[15:51] <Willdude123> Android is good.
[15:52] <Brace> SpeedEvil: all software sucks
[15:52] <SpeedEvil> In many ways, compared to 'proper' computers. In ways that are not inherent in mobile platforms.
[15:55] <Laurenceb__> 32million is cheap for a smartphone
[15:55] <fsphil> Willdude123: Java
[15:55] <Laurenceb__> http://www.monicahealthcare.com/products/
[15:56] <Laurenceb__> ^they spent £40million on that
[15:56] <Laurenceb__> real world products are very expensive
[15:56] <mfa298_> I think Brace has it about right.
[15:56] <Laurenceb__> you have unbelievably massive legal and staff costs
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[15:58] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
[15:58] <OZ1SKY_Brian> what happend to b7 and 8 ?
[15:59] <jcoxon> OZ1SKY_Brian, umm b-7 failed
[15:59] <jcoxon> b-8 hasb't launched yet
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[15:59] <Laurenceb__> b-7 was a zinc air test
[15:59] <Laurenceb__> zinc air failed epically
[16:00] <Laurenceb__> looked like it should have worked quite a lot better than it did
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[16:00] <Laurenceb__> i guess a cause of low temperature _and_ oxygen pressure
[16:00] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ah ok, but looks like radio stoped at 7km alt?
[16:00] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[16:00] <Laurenceb__> zinc air battery failed
[16:00] <OZ1SKY_Brian> oh zinc batt, i miss understood
[16:01] <Willdude123> heh
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[16:02] <Willdude123> The Stratodean talk, in the questions section the guy said there were quite hot-headed debates between amateur radio and hab people.
[16:02] <OZ1SKY_Brian> what a shame, might have heard that one
[16:02] <Willdude123> Are there?
[16:02] <daveake> The subject comes up sometimes
[16:02] <daveake> Dunno about hot-headed
[16:02] <Laurenceb__> ham headed
[16:03] <OZ1SKY_Brian> too few launches here to start a debate over LOL
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[16:04] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ive only heard about 1 launch and i havent been contacted yet :-)
[16:04] <kpiman> B-7 Dial?
[16:04] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 00000000000000000000000000000000Hz
[16:05] <OZ1SKY_Brian> sri could not resist
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[16:07] <OZ1SKY_Brian> wait, i could be wrong, the cpu beatfreq might still be running, so 16MHz maybe? :-)
[16:07] <fsphil> that'd be a challange
[16:08] <OZ1SKY_Brian> kpiman sorry didnt see you just loged on, we just talked about B-7, the batt failed.
[16:10] <OZ1SKY_Brian> So its not transmitting. Dont know if anyone has the last dial freq, before it died?
[16:10] <kpiman> Ah, If i opened my eyes i would have noticed the time. :-)
[16:11] <OZ1SKY_Brian> dont worry, it fooled me too at first.
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[16:11] <OZ1SKY_Brian> got radio started and tuned in, before i found out
[16:11] <Willdude123> Oh yay, an opt-in system for online porn is finally here.
[16:11] <eroomde> i have been counting he days
[16:11] <Willdude123> This will make me lol at my friends' desperate efforts to get hold of it.
[16:12] <Willdude123> Obviously, not mine
[16:12] <eroomde> though it's not here yet, it's just speculting by a politician
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[16:12] <Willdude123> It's not a good thing IMHO.
[16:12] Geoff-G8DHE-M (~Geoff-G8D@ joined #highaltitude.
[16:12] <Willdude123> (hasn't got anything to do with my position as a child)
[16:12] <Willdude123> It's like stopping smokers from smoking.
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[16:13] <OZ1SKY_Brian> jcoxon is B-8 going up today, any info on that?
[16:14] <Willdude123> eroomde: Can you imagine how awkward it'd be to have to phone up an indian call-center and ask them for your porn back?
[16:14] <Survivor> Hey guys! I have to do a theoritical report on a HAB platform, and I wanted to know what constitutes the payload? I am guessing the camera and the tracker. Is there something else I am missing?
[16:14] <eroomde> Willdude123: well, they do it on mobile broadband already
[16:14] <eroomde> my vodafone mobile internet stick usecd to block flickr
[16:15] <eroomde> i wasn;t that embarrassed when i called up to ask it to be unblocked
[16:15] <eroomde> Survivor: anything you fly
[16:15] <eroomde> doesn;t need a camera
[16:15] <eroomde> you might have an expetriment
[16:15] <Survivor> eroomde: I need it to take pictures
[16:15] <eroomde> oh right
[16:15] <eroomde> well then
[16:15] <eroomde> you're done
[16:16] <Survivor> camera and a tracker right? and I am sorted?
[16:16] <eroomde> yes
[16:16] <eroomde> parachute
[16:16] <Survivor> yea.. that's to retrieve it..
[16:16] <eroomde> thought whether or not that's payload depends on how you define payload
[16:16] <Survivor> cool.. so I was thinking a Canon camera.. which would be hacked should be used.. do you have some suggestions?
[16:17] <eroomde> chdk works on powershots
[16:17] <eroomde> that's very popular
[16:17] <Survivor> heard of it. Any particular camera you could think of?
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[16:17] <eroomde> no
[16:17] <eroomde> just reserach one
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[16:18] <eroomde> it obviously depends on your design constraints
[16:18] <eroomde> mass, budget, whatever
[16:18] <Survivor> m not going to build it.. its just a theoritical project.. so anything would do to be honest
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[16:18] <eroomde> cool
[16:18] <Survivor> and I plan to keep it under 2 KG, which is in the CAA restriction
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[16:19] <eroomde> i don;t really undertsand what the point of this project is :)
[16:20] <daveake> I guess it's like a real one, but no risk of losing the payload, or getting any results
[16:20] <Willdude123> eroomde: Imagine all the poor 13-18 y.o's who would have no access to porn.
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[16:20] <eroomde> no
[16:21] <Survivor> eroomde: its a college project, for an MSc degree..
[16:21] <mfa298_> seems like there's been a few people doing theoretical payloads.
[16:21] <Survivor> emoorde: dissertation
[16:21] <eroomde> The MSc dissertation or a smaller project?
[16:21] <Survivor> MSc dissertation
[16:22] <eroomde> well, lucky you. You can do a whole MSc disseration via a 10 minute IRC conversation
[16:22] <daveake> I guess they need a theoretical notam. fsphil is the expert on those :p
[16:22] <Survivor> hahahahahahahahahahahaha
[16:22] <Survivor> my topic is.. design and analysis of a HAB platform
[16:23] <Survivor> i have to analyse previous HAB platforms, and come up with my own design with payloads no more than 2 kg
[16:23] <eroomde> what analysis are you planning?
[16:23] <eroomde> eg thermal, stability etc?
[16:23] <Survivor> just a simple theoritical analysis.
[16:23] <daveake> of what?
[16:23] <Survivor> they dont want me to do a details thesis.. (which is good for me)
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[16:24] <daveake> Can I do an MSc looks like a piece of pi$$
[16:24] <Survivor> of previous deisgns, as in.. I have to check what apparatus was used on previous HAB platforms, which camera.. what type of envelope, which weather conditions it was flown in blah blah
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[16:24] <mfa298_> sounds like doing a real msc is probably easier that buying a fake one.
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[16:24] <daveake> lol
[16:25] <Survivor> its just a formality really, but the actual thesis is something else. we need to build a remote controlled aircraft, and fly it. so that it can take pictures and sew them together n stuff
[16:25] <eroomde> ah right
[16:25] <eroomde> ok
[16:25] <eroomde> that's what i meant
[16:25] <daveake> So it would be ... "Dave used a Canon xxx on a hot day and it worked"
[16:25] <eroomde> thisn't isn't like the sort of whole-year-of-work type capital-letters MSc Thesis
[16:25] <daveake> Is the "Sc" in Msc actually short for Science?
[16:25] <daveake> I'm beginning to doubt it
[16:26] <Survivor> yes.. its masters of science
[16:26] <Survivor> well u shudn't doubt it, coz its not as easy at it looks..
[16:26] <eroomde> i think we misunderstood that this was The Thesis whereas it looks like the aeroplane project is
[16:26] <daveake> Yes I know, but there doesn't seem to be much mastering of science here
[16:26] <Survivor> aeroplane project is the MAJOR thesis.. while this ballon project is just an added formality
[16:26] <eroomde> right i see
[16:26] <eroomde> ok
[16:26] <eroomde> like a sort of theoretical design exercise
[16:26] <Survivor> lol.. building an aeroplane and making it fly IS science
[16:27] <eroomde> it's just you implied it was the big one
[16:27] <Survivor> exactly eroomde
[16:27] <eroomde> which is why we were all a bit shocked
[16:27] <eroomde> because we've all done it and it takes a few man-days if starting from scratch
[16:27] <Survivor> life would be so much fun, if I got my degree by doing a balloon project
[16:27] <eroomde> well ok, just to tick your boxes
[16:27] <eroomde> Powershot A560
[16:28] <Survivor> cool..
[16:28] <eroomde> no go and concentrate on the real project
[16:28] <eroomde> now*
[16:28] <eroomde> :)
[16:28] <Survivor> :D
[16:28] <Survivor> any tracker?
[16:28] <eroomde> yes
[16:28] <eroomde> well there aren't that many off the shelf
[16:28] <eroomde> that are legal in the uk
[16:29] <mfa298_> yet
[16:29] <eroomde> and while there are cracks forming in that moral dyke now, it still might be interesting to theoretically design one
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[16:33] <Willdude123> Is this OK? http://www.maplin.co.uk/domestic-multimeter-37279
[16:34] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, what do you want to do with it?
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[16:34] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: yes, but twice the price
[16:35] <Willdude123> Measure voltages etc
[16:35] <Willdude123> Well, I want to go with maplin because I need it by thursday.
[16:35] <chrisstubbs> Yeah it will do, much cheapoer on ebay etc if you can
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-LCD-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Ammeter-OHM-AC-DC-Circuit-Checker-Tester-Buzzer-/400351950822?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d36d5f7e6
[16:35] <chrisstubbs> ^^had a few of those
[16:35] <chrisstubbs> they do like to fall apart haha
[16:36] <chrisstubbs> That will probably come buy thursday too if you get it now
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-LCD-MULTIMETER-ELECTRICAL-TESTER-WITH-TEST-LEADS-BATTERY-UK-BNIB-/350831185462?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item51af2b0e36
[16:36] <chrisstubbs> *by
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> Get two from different vendors
[16:37] <Lunar_LanderU> build your own multimeter
[16:37] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[16:37] <eroomde> no
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> Damnit. Buy 3, get 1 free.
[16:37] <eroomde> you can save that for when you understand a bit more electronics
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> Must resist!
[16:37] <eroomde> hohoho
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[16:38] <SpeedEvil> I would say get a cheap multimeter. Second investment is a decent - £7 or so say - set of leads for it.
[16:38] <Willdude123> Actually, I'll see if whojamacallit respond to my email.
[16:38] <Willdude123> I don't need it urgently.
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[16:39] <SpeedEvil> You can never have too many multimeters.
[16:39] <eroomde> 5 might be too many
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[16:39] Action: daveake counts
[16:39] <arko> or a room full of them
[16:39] <daveake> hmm 5 you say? :)
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: questionable.
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: I've used I think 8 at once.
[16:39] <arko> then you cant walk around or have any table space
[16:40] <chrisstubbs> 5 spread across the house/garage/car is handy
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: monitoring a li-ion battery charger
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[16:40] <daveake> It's handy having a large bench one as it's the only one you won't lose
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> ^this is why tablet computers will never win.
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[16:47] <eroomde> incoming order UpuWork
[16:48] Action: arko ducks
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[16:52] Nick change: costyn_ -> costyn
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[16:54] <eroomde> window 15
[16:54] <eroomde> sigh
[16:54] <daveake> :)
[16:54] <eroomde> UpuWork: and boom
[16:58] <cyclops> Would this work to log all the arduino output going to the Radio to a SD? http://www.ebay.es/itm/Arduino-SD-Card-Module-/140876989098?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item20ccec42aa&_uhb=1
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[17:00] <cyclops> Its worth to buy a Battery Holder for the AA?
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[17:01] <eroomde> loose in the box works
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[17:03] <cyclops> And to join the cables
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[17:03] <_GMT_> what news of B-& ... I missed it all!
[17:03] <cyclops> Solder?
[17:04] <cyclops> For example to use 3AA bats
[17:04] <cyclops> Duct tape them together?
[17:05] <jcoxon> cyclops, battery holders are good for testing
[17:05] <x-f> GMT, its "weird" battery died, it was a test launch
[17:05] <daveake> For the flight, they're good for testing that your tracker works fine after rebooting on landing
[17:05] <jcoxon> and are okay for flights though have been known to pop out
[17:05] <cyclops> and then for flight how to you secure 3AA so that they deliver 5,5v
[17:06] <cyclops> *4,5
[17:06] <daveake> cyclops, Tak a look at the discharge curve
[17:06] <cyclops> I mean phisically
[17:06] <daveake> They're 1.8V when fresh and 1V when nearly flat
[17:06] <cyclops> How to join them
[17:06] <daveake> Well, in series
[17:07] <cyclops> But soldering them? Duct tape
[17:07] <daveake> yes and yes
[17:07] <cyclops> both
[17:07] <daveake> yes
[17:07] <cyclops> A special soldering iron is necessary?
[17:07] <daveake> solder the wires; duct tape them together so they don't fly apart
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[17:07] <daveake> No just a hot one, with a large bit, and some flux
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[17:08] <cyclops> Like this? http://aero-formosa.com.ar/sam-1953.com.ar/Taller_archivos/soldadura/4.jpg
[17:08] <cyclops> before soldering
[17:08] <daveake> That's a mess
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[17:08] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[17:09] <cyclops> lets search for it in english
[17:09] <daveake> Not the text, the battery
[17:09] <cyclops> yeah yeah
[17:09] <cyclops> I know
[17:09] <cyclops> It looks horrible for me
[17:10] <cyclops> But as I dont know if its ok
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[17:10] <cyclops> I cant jutge without knowing
[17:10] <_GMT_> you could try to remove some of the shiny battery connections with a bit of emery paper?
[17:11] <cyclops> then apply some tin?
[17:11] <cyclops> and the wire
[17:11] <daveake> I don't know what you're asking. Use a nice hot soldering iron, with a large bit (say 5mm) so it doesn't cool down quickly. Put some flux on the battery and/or scrape the contact with something sharp. Apply iron/solder. Don't leave the bit there for long.
[17:11] <iain_g4sgx> Does anyone know if B8 is flying this evening?
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[17:12] <cyclops> daveake I was asking just for what you sayed
[17:12] <cyclops> *said
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[17:15] <_GMT_> cyclops: if you have some old dead batteries you can practise
[17:16] <Willdude123> Still no lock, after around ten minutes.
[17:17] <Willdude123> I really should flash my Beaglebone BLack again as it's getting really rubbish, VNC isn't starting and wifi is intermittent.
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[17:18] <Willdude123> Which means I can only put it where the USB will reach
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[17:22] <Willdude123> Still no lock
[17:23] <Willdude123> It's outside the window for goodness sake.
[17:23] <mfa298_> the speed to get a lock can vary depending on the satellite positions.
[17:24] <chrisstubbs> Does anyone know the proper name for the DC jacks that snap into a little 2 pin connector (like these)? http://bit.ly/1aEnMG6
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[17:26] <Willdude123> Well I'll leave it outside my window for a while.
[17:26] <chrisstubbs> "dc plug" should have guessed
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[17:27] <fsphil> I'm not a fan of those DC plugs
[17:27] <mfa298_> has it got a lock there before ?
[17:28] <Willdude123> Yeah
[17:28] <chrisstubbs> fsphil, no they are pants :P I have that car charger set from ebay but they are right angled plugs and wont fit in my dads radio as the socket is recessed
[17:29] <chrisstubbs> need a set of straight ones (well just one type)
[17:29] <fsphil> I'm always worried it'll be the wrong polarity too
[17:29] <fsphil> constantly testing them with a meter
[17:29] <chrisstubbs> Yeah :) Superglue solves that
[17:30] <chrisstubbs> not-so-adjustable adjustable power supply with not-so-interchangable interchangable tips
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[17:31] <Willdude123> Still awaiting lock
[17:33] <mfa298_> my particular hatred of those jacks is finding the right size. Had issue with my wifi router the other day due to that (chose wrong so it was fine until you touched the router)
[17:33] <Willdude123> It's one of the few problems us HABers share with the general public.
[17:33] <LazyLeopard> So many different standard power plugs...
[17:34] <fsphil> we need a new standard. that'll solve everything
[17:38] <Willdude123> If I'm not getting lock atm, does that mean I'll never get lock?
[17:38] <daveake> no
[17:39] <Willdude123> Ah yes
[17:39] <daveake> What GPS aerial?
[17:39] <Willdude123> Satellites move, silly me.
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[17:39] <Willdude123> Sarantel
[17:39] <cyclops> hate myinternet
[17:40] <cyclops> _GMT_: Ill practice then!
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[17:40] <cyclops> will this be enough to log dtaa to an sd? http://goo.gl/VDbP5Z
[17:40] <daveake> Willdude123, In that case have you dropped it?
[17:41] <Willdude123> Nope.
[17:41] <daveake> You want me to ask that again?
[17:41] <Willdude123> Unless I sleepwalk
[17:41] <Willdude123> daveake: If you must.
[17:41] <daveake> Just leave it. If it fails to get a lock after say 30 mins, you broke it
[17:41] <daveake> Very easy to do
[17:41] <fsphil> is it outside?
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[17:42] <daveake> he said so
[17:42] <fsphil> I've not been paying attention
[17:42] <Willdude123> Outside the window.
[17:42] <fsphil> ah
[17:42] <daveake> Well if it isn't it needs to be
[17:42] <daveake> Does it have time yet?
[17:42] <Willdude123> I don't wanna buy another one.
[17:42] <fsphil> it can take quite a while for it to download the data it needs to get a position
[17:42] <Willdude123> Yes it's printing the time.
[17:43] <Willdude123> I suppose I could replace the antenna somehow.
[17:43] <daveake> OK you need to wait
[17:43] <Willdude123> I will start it again at 45 past.
[17:43] <daveake> No, leave it on
[17:43] <fsphil> yea don't interrupt it
[17:43] <Willdude123> kk
[17:43] <fsphil> it could be downloading the data right now
[17:44] <daveake> It needs to download a bunch of data
[17:44] <fsphil> the GPS satellites transmit the data of their orbits, so the module can work out their exact position
[17:45] <fsphil> but they do it very slowly
[17:45] <fsphil> 50 bit/s oddly enough
[17:46] <daveake> The one true data rate
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[17:55] <Willdude123> Still nothing
[17:55] <LeoBodnar> Evening!
[17:56] <Willdude123> How difficult would it be to replace the antenna? Or should I just order a 3v3 board from UpuWork
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[17:59] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[17:59] <craag> evening Lunar_Lander
[17:59] <Lunar_Lander> did you get my earlier PM?
[18:00] <craag> I did.. interesting.
[18:00] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:00] <Lunar_Lander> the bad thing is that now that I am home I have no idea what I have written xD
[18:00] <Lunar_Lander> but well
[18:00] <Lunar_Lander> we removed the second jFET and the circuit seems to work better with that, but my prof noticed something
[18:00] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: Do you know of any people who have got those logic things for free?
[18:01] <Lunar_Lander> when the reset system actuates, we see the output increase to that one certain level
[18:01] <Lunar_Lander> but then, it drops down immediately again
[18:01] <Lunar_Lander> he says, that in the case of constant E field, that should not happen
[18:01] <craag> Hmm
[18:01] <Lunar_Lander> that the electrode charges up negatively somehow
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> he said I should try to disconnect Q2 and trigger the reset manually with a jumper wire
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> so I did that and found out something
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> if R3 is not connected at its lower end, the voltage actually stays high after resetting
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> until I mess with the electrodes or so
[18:02] <Lunar_Lander> if it is connected, the voltage drops back down
[18:03] <_GMT_> LeoB ... what happened with B-7?
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[18:05] <craag> _GMT_: Voltage looks strange.. dodgy power maybe?
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[18:06] <fsphil> battery ran out
[18:06] <fsphil> from the sounds of it, it wasn't expected to last that long
[18:07] <craag> Lunar_Lander: I've spent today working with circuits, it all looks quite blurry now.
[18:07] <Lunar_Lander> yeah same here
[18:07] <Lunar_Lander> good to get some rest finally
[18:07] <Laurenceb__> im guessing B-8 is flying lithium?
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[18:07] <G0TDJ_Steve> Seventeen updates for Win7.....
[18:08] <craag> fsphil: Oh I remember now.. do you know what battery he used?
[18:08] <Laurenceb__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkcJEvMcnEg
[18:08] <fsphil> don't craag .. possibly a zinc-air
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[18:09] <DL7AD> good afternoon
[18:09] <fsphil> howdy DL7AD
[18:09] <DL7AD> i saw recently b7 beeing launched
[18:10] <G0TDJ_Steve> DL7AD de G0TDJ - GE OM
[18:10] <DL7AD> :)
[18:11] <mattbrejza> Willdude123: i have, but then i fit the orginal criteria
[18:13] <G0TDJ_Steve> DL7AD: Leo launched B7 as a test for a particular type of battery. It didn't last long as I understand it.
[18:13] <DL7AD> ah okay
[18:14] <DL7AD> G0TDJ_Steve is it solar?
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[18:14] <G0TDJ_Steve> I don't believe so. Can someone help out here, I missed most of the flight
[18:16] <LeoBodnar> B-7 http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-7/
[18:16] <G0TDJ_Steve> Thanks Leo :-)
[18:16] <LeoBodnar> Verdict on Zinc-Air cells: Not impossible but is a challenge!
[18:17] <G0TDJ_Steve> Interesting
[18:17] <LeoBodnar> It's impossible to get usable Zinc-Air cells for civil use. Military uses them abundantly
[18:18] <G0TDJ_Steve> Are they restricted because of some danger?
[18:18] <DL7AD> ah... whats the advantage?
[18:19] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: looks like energy density is only about 40% better than AA lithium
[18:19] <LeoBodnar> Highest energy density available.
[18:19] <G4SGX_iain> Is B8 flying tonight LeoBodnar?
[18:20] <LeoBodnar> 40% is massive! And comparing hearing aids cells vs high current AAs is not really fair
[18:20] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: you think the mil stuff would owrk better at altitude?
[18:20] <Laurenceb__> i guess so
[18:20] <LeoBodnar> No G4SGX_iain, just testing
[18:20] <LeoBodnar> I am sure it will. This is still below Mt Everest peak.
[18:21] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: You a engineering prof?
[18:21] <mattbrejza> no im the student
[18:21] <Willdude123> Okay 30 mins and still no lock.
[18:21] <mattbrejza> but i asked my eng prof
[18:22] <Willdude123> Ah ok
[18:22] <Willdude123> Right so what should I do now? Order a new breakout board?
[18:24] <mattbrejza> what breakoput board:?
[18:24] <Willdude123> I think this one's broken.
[18:24] <mattbrejza> gps breakout?
[18:24] <Willdude123> I have no lock after 30 mins
[18:24] <Willdude123> Yeah
[18:24] <LeoBodnar> Hearing aids cells have tiny airflow holes to make them last for 3-4 weeks at low discharge rate. I need bigger airflow to last for 4-5 days instead at higher/pulsing discharge rate.
[18:24] <mattbrejza> its hard to break them so they give data but no lock
[18:25] <LeoBodnar> The cells have simply starved of oxygen eventually. They still had enough capacity to work for many days but oxygen wasn't flowing quick enough
[18:25] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: sure its not a catalyst limit?
[18:25] <eroomde> perhaps an antenna issue
[18:25] <eroomde> what kind of antenna do you have willdude?
[18:25] <Laurenceb__> how big are the holes?
[18:25] Action: SpeedEvil has a stupid suggestion.
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> A Leetle bubble filled with oxygen.
[18:25] <LeoBodnar> No, they just starve, leave them alone and they recover and ready again.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> So they may be OK for intermittent moderate pulses?
[18:26] <eroomde> like a nematode worm
[18:26] <Willdude123> Sarantel eroomde
[18:26] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar did you receive the LiFePo4 cells yet?
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> Wit the electrolyte recovering in the middle?
[18:26] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[18:26] <LeoBodnar> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-7/Images/1.jpg there are five holes on this picture
[18:26] <Laurenceb__> how big are the holes?
[18:26] <Willdude123> Are they easy to replace?
[18:27] <Laurenceb__> wow ok
[18:27] <Laurenceb__> near the center?
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[18:27] <eroomde> Willdude123: when you get a multimeter, with the power off, see if there is continuity between the middle pin and either of the two outerpins
[18:27] <eroomde> gps power off*
[18:27] <Benny_Boy> Hello
[18:27] <LeoBodnar> One on the centre and 4 on the lines along the dashed indents
[18:27] <Laurenceb__> id still imagine the catalyst is limiting it
[18:27] <LeoBodnar> in
[18:27] <Laurenceb__> oh i see now
[18:28] <Laurenceb__> yeah i guess itd be hole limited here
[18:28] <Laurenceb__> *there
[18:28] <arko> holy cow LeoBodnar
[18:28] <eroomde> right, i am going offline for 1 week
[18:28] <arko> you flew the zinc-air's?!
[18:28] <eroomde> back wednesday 31st
[18:28] <arko> eroomde: enjoy!
[18:28] <LeoBodnar> They are trying not to let too much air in so it won't dry out, etc
[18:28] <Benny_Boy> Does anyone have a gps log file I can use to test my rig? Ideally in NMEA format? I want to feed it through gpsfake (part of GPSD) to simulate a flight.
[18:29] <LeoBodnar> good luck eroomde !
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[18:29] <LeoBodnar> I know you can do it
[18:29] <LeoBodnar> yes arko
[18:30] <arko> dude
[18:30] <arko> you move FAST
[18:30] <arko> well i guess i'm not flying these zinc-air's i just got
[18:30] <LeoBodnar> Somebody has to :)
[18:30] <Willdude123> eroomde I'll have to wait till after the hols.
[18:30] <Willdude123> Well, after my holiday
[18:30] <fsphil> too late he's gone :)
[18:31] <Benny_Boy> not looking good then.
[18:31] <fsphil> you can get csv data from the predictor
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[18:31] <fsphil> if you can convert this easily enough to gpgga strings?
[18:31] <jcoxon> Benny_Boy, http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:emulator?s[]=nmea
[18:32] <fsphil> I did that for a test a while back but I didn't keep the code sadly
[18:32] <arko> LeoBodnar: did you see my board?
[18:32] <LeoBodnar> Maybe supercap in parallel with Zinc-Air could be a success
[18:32] <LeoBodnar> No arko
[18:33] <Laurenceb__> i suspect you may need a custom zinc-air setup
[18:34] <LeoBodnar> Supercap will average the current consumption bit will not cure long-term oxygen starvation
[18:34] <LeoBodnar> Maybe 10 cells could have survived.
[18:34] <arko> ohh
[18:34] <arko> i can throw these batteries inside my env chamber
[18:35] <arko> pump air out and see what works!
[18:35] <arko> at least these batteries wont go to waste
[18:35] <LeoBodnar> Well, try experimenting with them. There is still some air up there but just not that much as here.
[18:35] <G0TDJ_Steve> Time for an evening meal... Now, what to make
[18:36] Nick change: G0TDJ_Steve -> G0TDJ_AFK
[18:36] <Willdude123> eroomde the pins are covered in some sort of gloop.
[18:36] <arko> LeoBodnar: yeah i wonder how it would do at night/day too
[18:37] <arko> perhaps have some sort of a head absorber to keep batteries warm
[18:37] <LeoBodnar> They would have to freeze overnight and defrost in the morning. I had payload painted black for that purpose but it did not help still :)
[18:38] <LeoBodnar> B-7 died with 10C internal temperature
[18:39] <arko> ah so temp didnt kill it
[18:39] <arko> air dep did huh
[18:39] <arko> B-7 was painted black?
[18:39] <LeoBodnar> Yes, the payload
[18:39] <arko> LeoBodnar: http://imgur.com/a/PCRZl
[18:39] <arko> ah
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[18:40] <Benny_Boy> emulate.c still requires a log file to feed into it and I don't have a kml file to put through the other program. Google earth isn't too happy on my PC.
[18:41] <LeoBodnar> Air pressure at 7200m where B-7 was is 40% that of ground level. Probably I should have stuck more cells in, this would have made it heavier and floating lower. More air pressure AND higher outside temperatures. Win all around.
[18:41] <arko> i'll be testing the code on my pico tonight
[18:41] <Benny_Boy> even if it was, how would you enter the temporal element into the kml file?
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: I wonder about a tiny, tiny bag full of pure oxygen.
[18:41] <arko> LeoBodnar: seems legit
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> Haha! Coolio! Is it working yet?
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> I thought about that but how in practice? Also oxygen is probably even more dangerous than H2
[18:42] <arko> LeoBodnar: I get to find out tonight :)
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> And heavier than air?
[18:43] <arko> built it and finished at 3am, then stayed home the next day to write code
[18:43] <arko> testing tonight
[18:43] <Laurenceb__> only slightly heavier
[18:43] <LeoBodnar> Cool arko that's some dedication!
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> hi LeoBodnar
[18:44] <arko> :) the next day was a work day too
[18:44] <arko> i wish i could do this at work
[18:44] <LeoBodnar> Hi Lunar_Lander
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> and hi arko
[18:44] <arko> hi hi
[18:44] <arko> LeoBodnar: you win on dedication department though
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> the curiosity SAM results are cool
[18:45] <Lunar_Lander> today I was told that the results match one of the Vikings and pathfinder, and thus the second Viking was wrong
[18:45] <arko> i'm buying you a beer at the ukhas pub party
[18:45] <LeoBodnar> Any green men footprints yet?
[18:45] <LeoBodnar> Lol
[18:45] <arko> srsly, thats some crazy work you've done, respect
[18:45] <Willdude123> ping UpuWork
[18:45] <LeoBodnar> Cheers it's all good fun!
[18:46] <arko> :)
[18:46] <arko> indeed
[18:46] <Lunar_Lander> arko, now that curiosity II's experimental load has been proposed, is it secured that it will be built and flown?
[18:46] <LeoBodnar> I have seen somewhere the requirements in terms of oxygen per W*h energy generated by Zinc-Airs. So O2 needs can be estimated
[18:46] <arko> Lunar_Lander: yes, budget was secured months ago
[18:46] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[18:47] <arko> i'm working on it right now actually
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> awesome
[18:47] <arko> we are already ordering parts
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> YAY
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> sparkfun Inc., Boulder, CO, USA
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:47] <arko> LeoBodnar: where? research paper? datahseet?
[18:48] <LeoBodnar> let me have a look, some manufacturer's white paper I think
[18:48] <Lunar_Lander> did you hear about the Ariane 6 design that has passed review now?
[18:48] <arko> nice
[18:48] <Benny_Boy> Hehe: Here's our lovable Dave A asking the same question as me... https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ukhas/nFuFpJvQBBY
[18:48] <Lunar_Lander> three parallel solid cores as first stage, with another one as the second one and a cryogenic third stage
[18:49] <arko> LL coool
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> it is supposed to replace Ariane 5 and Soyuz
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> but it can carry only one sat to GEO
[18:49] <fsphil> Benny_Boy: the predictor outputs KML too
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> there are complaints already, as comsats become heavier and not lighter over the years
[18:49] <Willdude123> Is it best to replace the antenna or just get a new board?
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> also that the rocket is heavily solid based
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> vibration issues and so on
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[18:50] <LeoBodnar> the amount of air required per ampere-hour of capacity is about 1.2 liters at standard temperature and pressure.
[18:50] <LeoBodnar> http://www.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Technical_Bulletins/Zinc%20Air%20Tech%20Bulletin.pdf
[18:50] <Laurenceb__> not a lot
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> arko, Ariane 6 couldn't even launch ESA's Alphasat
[18:50] <arko> wow
[18:50] <arko> air or pure oxy?
[18:51] <Laurenceb__> suspect its catalyst limited
[18:51] <Laurenceb__> not air hole limited
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> I don't get it
[18:51] <Benny_Boy> Awesome. Thanks!!
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> Delta and Atlas scale up
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> the chinese scale up also
[18:51] <arko> LeoBodnar: we jsut need to find a hydrogen or helium powered battery
[18:51] <arko> stick it in the balloon
[18:51] <arko> :P
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> arianespace decides to scale down
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[18:52] <Laurenceb__> arko: then you lose lift
[18:52] <arko> i know
[18:52] <Laurenceb__> solar ftw
[18:52] <arko> but it would be cool
[18:52] <arko> solar is ftw
[18:52] <LeoBodnar> Yes, or latex powered :)
[18:52] <Lunar_Lander> someone said, european manned spaceflight slips into the far future now
[18:52] <Laurenceb__> thin film powerflex panel
[18:52] <fsphil> solar is definitly the answer
[18:52] <fsphil> and a super cap for night time
[18:52] <arko> esa is a lost cause
[18:52] <arko> other than skylon
[18:52] <arko> thats awesome
[18:52] <arko> but they are not esa
[18:53] <Lunar_Lander> you surely know the funny story of ELDO Europa?
[18:53] <fsphil> oddly no
[18:53] <LeoBodnar> Powerflex trials are planned for B-8
[18:53] <Laurenceb__> cool
[18:53] <fsphil> powerflex?
[18:53] <Lunar_Lander> arko, three stage rocket, British, French, German, electronics from Benelux
[18:53] <Laurenceb__> you know linear tech have a max power point tracking smps
[18:53] <LeoBodnar> *Powerfilm
[18:54] <Laurenceb__> erm yeah film even
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> all stages came with manuals in the respective language
[18:54] <fsphil> oh a solar cell
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> very good for an integrated system
[18:54] <Laurenceb__> i dunno if you could manage anything with single smps
[18:54] <Laurenceb__> or if you would need dual
[18:54] <arko> will main bus b actually be connected to power?
[18:54] <arko> ie solar is actually powering?
[18:54] <iain_g4sgx> FFS..., EVERY maplin soldering iron I buy dies within 2 months, bloody ridiculous. Grrrr..
[18:54] <Laurenceb__> yeah thats what im wondering
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> You can do hacks with a standard SMPS - if you regulate the input voltage - which means an inverting opamp
[18:55] <LeoBodnar> B-8 is a bodge. Proper design needs proper power management from the ground up.
[18:55] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[18:55] <fsphil> iain_g4sgx: all mine the power LED failed, but the iron still works
[18:55] <fsphil> by all I mean two so far
[18:55] <arko> LeoBodnar: gotcha
[18:55] <Willdude123> Just dropped the breakout :(
[18:55] <LeoBodnar> iain_g4sgx: get one that costs at least £150 and you won't look back
[18:55] <fsphil> definitly broke then Willdude123
[18:55] <Laurenceb__> maybe you could run smps from the pic
[18:55] <iain_g4sgx> This is the 6th iron I've bought and has failed. Will have to consider a soldering station i spose.
[18:55] <Willdude123> fsphil: Should I get a new one or fix this antenna?
[18:55] <Laurenceb__> - use regular smps to step up from the battery
[18:56] <Laurenceb__> then a software/pwm based scheme to charge the battery off the panel
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[18:57] <LeoBodnar> iain_g4sgx: get this: http://uk.farnell.com/ersa/rds80/soldering-station-80w-230v-eu/dp/4422820
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> iain_g4sgx: Consider a warranty return
[18:57] <Willdude123> When Upu gives you stuff for free, is there a warranty? :)
[18:58] <daveake> Yeah, you get your money back
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, what would be awesome if you could repeat B-6 with the sensors of B-5
[18:59] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb__: you really need priority based power sourcing to try to extract maximum from the solar panel. I.e. be ready to dump excess somewhere or make up the lack of power from the battery. And these priorities change all the time.
[18:59] <Laurenceb__> well i was thinking rather simpler
[18:59] <Laurenceb__> do you have pic with built in opamps?
[18:59] <LeoBodnar> I.e. at night the main goal is not to transmit or get GPS lock but not to overuse the battery and make it to the morning.
[18:59] <Laurenceb__> some micros have opamps
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> Stick the panel over the battery, with a diode, add a shunt regulator, and you're done.
[18:59] <Laurenceb__> lol
[18:59] <Willdude123> daveake: If the antenna is faulty, is it easy to replace?
[19:00] <Laurenceb__> i was thinking panel to cap , voltage monitored by ADC on the pic
[19:00] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: Only got the 35% :(
[19:00] <Laurenceb__> then some form of pwm driven smps to charge the battery
[19:00] <SpeedEvil> Or a temperature compensating MPPT 99.99% efficient SMPS - whatever floats your boar.
[19:00] <LeoBodnar> In the morning the priority is to charge the battery, not to TX or GPS. Midday you want to send some flight log data even if it means killing the battery as who needs a ballon that does not entertain trackers, etc :)
[19:00] <Laurenceb__> and panel current monitoring using a shunt resistor on its ground
[19:01] <Laurenceb__> this is where a micro with built in opamps would lower the bom
[19:01] <Willdude123> Is it worth 60 quid?
[19:01] <Laurenceb__> then you can do software power tracking
[19:01] <Laurenceb__> and charge control
[19:01] <iain_g4sgx> Bah, I need a decent one anyway. Its just frustrating timing, was powering up my Max6
[19:01] <Laurenceb__> simplest way would be a buck smps and a couple of powerflex panels in series
[19:02] <Laurenceb__> so you are always switching down the voltage
[19:02] <Laurenceb__> actually no - lipo would need more voltage than that :-S
[19:03] <LeoBodnar> Lunar_Lander: sensors are such a pain! Let me get solar power working first. And as luck has it fully sensor equipped flight will just sit at 7000m like all the way through :)
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[19:04] <Lunar_Lander> yea :)
[19:04] <LeoBodnar> Not using proper MPPT from the panel is a sin! Not using extracted power thoughtfully is another sin :)
[19:05] <LeoBodnar> I am thinking separate PIC just for power management. It has to sit outside any SMPS loops to make sure it never dies.
[19:05] <Laurenceb__> looks like youd need 8 cells :/
[19:05] <Laurenceb__> for buck only
[19:05] <Laurenceb__> you could do sepic
[19:05] <Laurenceb__> but itd probably lose a little efficiency
[19:05] <LeoBodnar> Efficiency is not as good
[19:05] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[19:06] <Laurenceb__> grrrr
[19:06] <LeoBodnar> Tracker needs total re-design for solar
[19:06] <Laurenceb__> hard to do MPPT + charge control + SMPS off the cell easily
[19:06] <Laurenceb__> thats a lot of tricky stuff in a lightweight package
[19:06] Action: SpeedEvil looks at his NiMH button cells.
[19:07] <Laurenceb__> yeah - dedicated micro might be simplest
[19:07] <Laurenceb__> linear MPPT switcher doesnt solve the charge control issue
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[19:07] <LeoBodnar> Like Apple always did use separate PMC chip to manage power stuff outside main processor reach.
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> shunt reg - and a solar panel picked to not be able to overcurrent it
[19:07] <Laurenceb__> you want MPPT from a a solar cell into a battery cell
[19:07] <Laurenceb__> tricky
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[19:09] <LeoBodnar> Solar panel battery charger is not that difficult but charge-discharge system with shifting priorities. Pure analogue solution will hardly cut it.
[19:09] <LeoBodnar> Though I love simple analogue solutions.
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> How is it ever analog?
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[19:09] <SpeedEvil> You never ever care about anything other than charging the battery flat out, unless it's full.
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> The power managment - load switching - is quite seperate.
[19:10] <LeoBodnar> Shunt regulators, SMPS, level detection, MCU reset - all analogue
[19:10] Action: SpeedEvil is probably oversimplifying things.
[19:10] Action: SpeedEvil has a headache.
[19:10] <jcoxon> fsphil, got the radio switching between 144.800 and 145.825
[19:10] <fsphil> how'd you manage that?
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> I mwan - I don't see the 'shifting priorities'
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[19:11] <jcoxon> wired the A/B button
[19:11] <jcoxon> :-p
[19:11] <LeoBodnar> Well you might end up with a floating charger that does not even peeps.
[19:11] <jcoxon> its in theory blind though
[19:12] <LeoBodnar> What if battery only charges to 90% each day?
[19:13] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: You setup stuff to do at diffferent battery levels.
[19:13] <LeoBodnar> THat's shifting priorities :)
[19:13] <fsphil> hah
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yeah - but that's entirely on the digital side - and not really power control in an analog sense. It's just 'turn off the transmitter at night if we're under 10% battery'
[19:14] Nick change: daveake_ -> daveake
[19:15] <LeoBodnar> What a day - too hot to be thinking clearly and to hazy to be testing solar panels
[19:15] <jcoxon> fsphil, i guess its quite risky doing this
[19:16] <fsphil> it is
[19:16] <fsphil> unless you can tap into the screen
[19:17] <jcoxon> gets a bit complicated
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[19:20] <Steve_2E0VET> time for arduino programming one thinks
[19:21] <Steve_2E0VET> but before i do cananyone answer a ballon inflation question
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[19:23] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, ar eyou still here
[19:23] <craag> yo
[19:23] <Steve_2E0VET> was it you who explained some calcs on amounts of helium needed
[19:23] <Steve_2E0VET> yesterday
[19:24] <craag> Yes
[19:24] <Steve_2E0VET> what was the terminology - neck lift
[19:24] <craag> neck lift is the amount the balloon can lift once filled.
[19:24] <craag> so will be equal to payload weight + free lift
[19:25] <Steve_2E0VET> thats it, however i much be missing something, do the helium canisters have a meter showing how much helium has been put in
[19:25] <craag> No..
[19:25] <daveake> yes
[19:25] <daveake> :)
[19:25] <daveake> I think the AP ones do
[19:26] <craag> I thought you needed the super-expensive flow meter for that?
[19:26] <Steve_2E0VET> this is where i am getting confused, i would (as a nooob) put in enough to get the ballon to lift the payload, then probably a squirt more is that correct(ish)
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> Steve_2E0VET: to a degree, yes.
[19:27] <daveake> pressure meter will tell you
[19:27] <daveake> Steve_2E0VET The calculator gives you the neck lift which normally would be quite a bit more than the payload weight
[19:27] <daveake> Difference makes it go up
[19:27] <craag> The best way to do it really is to lift a weight with the balloon as you fill it. If the weight is equal to your desired free lift, once it starts to lift the weight you're done.
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[19:28] <daveake> then add stirks :)
[19:28] <craag> ^^ yep
[19:28] <Steve_2E0VET> ok so say you have a 10 meter "string" between the payload and the ballon, that means you have to have at least a 10 meter tube to fill it - no
[19:28] <daveake> no
[19:28] <Steve_2E0VET> so you can see when it lifts the payload - am i missing something
[19:28] <daveake> not done like that at all
[19:28] <Steve_2E0VET> why does that not surprise me lol
[19:28] <daveake> Start with the calculator
[19:29] <daveake> That will say something like "neck lift 2.2kg" for a 1kg payload
[19:29] <daveake> Next step weigh your filler assembly
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[19:30] <daveake> Say that's 400g, that leaves 2.2-0.4 = 1.8kg
[19:30] <daveake> Then you fill a water bottle or something till it weighs 1.8kg
[19:30] <Steve_2E0VET> daveake, brb
[19:30] <daveake> At launch you cable tie that to the filler
[19:30] <Willdude123> Wait I essentially have to give up HAB development until I come back from my holiday.
[19:30] <Willdude123> Because I can't get a DMM delivered in time.
[19:31] <Willdude123> What am I going to do till thurday?
[19:31] <Willdude123> *thursday
[19:33] <mfa298_> Willdude123: you could always plan how your going to test your code works.
[19:33] <craag> Willdude123: Have you been writing up what you've done so far?
[19:33] <mfa298_> try to think of all the ways it could fail and work out how you can test them.
[19:33] <craag> perhaps create a free wordpress blog and put some details up.
[19:33] <daveake> very good idea
[19:33] <Willdude123> craag: No because nobody cares.
[19:34] <Willdude123> :)
[19:34] <Willdude123> craag: I have willdover.co.uk
[19:34] <daveake> Because you will remember stuff better if you document it
[19:34] <Steve_2E0VET> daveake, cheers mate i think ive got it
[19:34] <daveake> They say people learn from mistakes
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[19:34] <mfa298_> writing stuff up isn't just about people caring. It's also good for when you want to go back to something. Or when you want to show someone what you've done.
[19:34] <daveake> In which case that's a lot of learning right there
[19:35] <Steve_2E0VET> dave i hope not
[19:35] <daveake> Steve_2E0VET, sorry talking to Willdude123
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[19:36] <Willdude123> But then I might as well just write a private log about it.
[19:36] <Willdude123> Everyone here knows what I've done.
[19:37] <craag> Willdude123: I have just started a job that I had a 4 minute interview for because they had read my website.
[19:38] <chrisstubbs> same for me ^
[19:38] <daveake> People here give their advice (and quite a lot of it you have to admit) for free; pass on your newfound wisdom to others
[19:38] <chrisstubbs> Just an online CV
[19:38] <daveake> indeed
[19:38] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: i guess the existing setup + pwm off the pic to a buck-boost or similar
[19:38] <Laurenceb__> then a shunt + opamp on the solar ground
[19:38] <Laurenceb__> then rest is software
[19:40] <Willdude123> Bit creepy. I wonder, does anyone know Mike Hunt?
[19:40] <daveake> sigh
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> If pic is behind the SMPS it can kill itself easily. There should be a low power safety thingy outside the SMPS ring. PMC?
[19:40] <Willdude123> He commented YES WILLIAM UR COOL on my blog.
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> What is blog?
[19:40] <Willdude123> Has anyone seen or heard ofr Mike Hunt? He seems to like me.
[19:40] <Willdude123> willdover.co.uk
[19:41] Action: daveake sighs again
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> you know there is a movie its called Terminator and there he says "F*** You A******"
[19:41] <Willdude123> I've never seen a Mike Hunt.
[19:41] <Laurenceb__> <LeoBodnar>: i meant your existing smps
[19:41] <Laurenceb__> so keep exisitng setup
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> and I never took that personally when I watched the movie
[19:41] <Laurenceb__> and add some software smps stuff to charge the battery
[19:41] <Willdude123> Well whoever Mike Hunt is, he must have seen my blog and the only place I have mentioned it is this channel.
[19:42] <Laurenceb__> lolz
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> YES
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> FINALLY
[19:42] Action: Laurenceb__ looks around shiftily
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> Kate has given birth
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> now the news can stop
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> please
[19:42] <fsphil> oh not you too
[19:42] <Willdude123> Laurenceb__: Oh jeez
[19:42] <Willdude123> Why?
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> No, the existing setup has to go. I am not converting step-up boards to step-downs using dead bug QFNs with 0.5 pits and some 38AWG wires ever again!
[19:42] <Willdude123> Why did you troll.
[19:43] <Laurenceb__> wasnt me
[19:43] <Willdude123> Really
[19:43] <Laurenceb__> i meant schematic
[19:43] <Laurenceb__> not the pcb :P
[19:43] <LeoBodnar> I am giving the birth news a wide berth
[19:44] <LeoBodnar> pitch
[19:44] <Willdude123> Laurenceb__: Well you aren't Mike Hunt.
[19:44] <Willdude123> Where is Mike?
[19:44] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: solar -> software smps -> cell -> off the shelf smps -> pic etc
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> yeah it is as big an info like when Curiosity landed and was alive in August 2012
[19:44] <daveake> Willdude123, enough
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> arko, is something planned for landing day?
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. some birthday party?
[19:44] <Willdude123> daveake: Of what?
[19:44] <daveake> It's funny if you're 12, I know, but please just give up now.
[19:45] <Willdude123> 13
[19:45] <Willdude123> http://imgur.com/6QuLrcd
[19:45] <Willdude123> I'm not kidding.
[19:45] <LeoBodnar> I like the idea of independent power management on a small agile PIC. It can run circles around main heavy processor and stay alive whatever happens shutting down everything ruthlessly if no power is left
[19:45] <Willdude123> It happened.
[19:46] <Willdude123> Why does nobody believe me?
[19:46] <LeoBodnar> Willdude123 you deserve to be slashdotted
[19:46] <Willdude123> It's not funny, I just want to find out who Mike Hunt is, to thank him for his appreciation of me.
[19:46] <Laurenceb__> whooosshhh
[19:47] <LeoBodnar> Just perform a random act of kindness to a random person instead.
[19:48] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb__: if cell is discharged you have no chance of any power until it charges up
[19:49] <Laurenceb__> hmm good point
[19:49] <LeoBodnar> Or dies eventually
[19:50] <Willdude123> Well, if Mike Hunt is in here, thank you for your appreciation.
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> And if the processor that controls software smps is powered off the end of the chain it can become an avalanche of badness
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> He might be a predator, you know a type they are putting on the lists...
[19:52] <craag> Willdude123: I'd disable comments, I ran them on my website for a bit and it wasn't worth some of the comments you get.
[19:52] <daveake> this is true
[19:52] <Willdude123> craag: Maybe but if (god forbid) people are interested in what I do, I want to make it easy for them to contact me.
[19:53] <daveake> I do allow them on mine but have a very good anti-spam thing which spots almost everything
[19:53] <daveake> Have an onfuscated email addy on a contact page
[19:53] <daveake> ob
[19:53] <LazyLeopard> Aye. Comments are fine on sites whee you have some control over who can leave them, and best avoided otherwise.
[19:53] <LazyLeopard> s/whee/where/
[19:54] <Willdude123> I have now found after some googling that Mike Hunt is a gag name for "My Cunt", with "Cunt" being a slang term for the vagina.
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> Oh god
[19:54] <craag> Yeah, set up another gmail account specifically for it and set up forwarding, so you can cut it off if you get spam.
[19:54] <Willdude123> Although this person could genuinely be called Mike Hunt.
[19:55] <LeoBodnar> Is he a culture secretary?
[19:55] <Willdude123> daveake: What's the plugin called?
[19:55] <daveake> Akismet
[19:56] #highaltitude: mode change '+o Upu_M0UPU' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[19:56] <jcoxon> Willdude123, honestly - language
[19:56] <daveake> Willdude123, How many more times with the swearing?
[19:56] #highaltitude: mode change '+b Willdude123!*Willdude1@wikipedia/W-D' by Upu_M0UPU!~Upu@2a00:14f0:e028:0:bc58:cd96:74b:223f
[19:57] <daveake> I guess he'll learn eventually
[19:57] Willdude123 kicked from #highaltitude by Upu_M0UPU: Willdude123
[19:57] <Upu_M0UPU> maybe
[19:57] <Upu_M0UPU> who knows
[19:57] <daveake> I was thinking years not days
[19:57] #highaltitude: mode change '-o Upu_M0UPU' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
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[19:57] <jonsowman> you might want to ban Willdude*!*@* or something
[19:57] <Upu_M0UPU> well
[19:58] <Upu_M0UPU> thats not hard to get round is it
[19:58] <Upu_M0UPU> here comes the pm...
[19:58] <jonsowman> maybe the hostname then
[19:59] <Upu_M0UPU> I can't see it, masked
[19:59] <jonsowman> maybe it won't be an issue anyway
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[20:03] <mfa298_> you might be able to block based on the mask, although being kicked could be enough.
[20:04] <jonsowman> indeed
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[20:07] <rharrison_> Evening
[20:07] <rharrison_> Whats the freq for b8?
[20:07] <Upu_M0UPU> hey Rob
[20:07] <rharrison_> hi Upu_M0UPU
[20:07] <Upu_M0UPU> oh it died this morning I think
[20:07] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> Upu
[20:07] <rharrison_> oh i thought it was up :-(
[20:07] <rharrison_> Yep sorry didn't look at time
[20:08] <arko> Lunar_Lander: no idea, the focus is building and landing it, only have 7 years
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> I meant if there is some sort of celebration on curiosity completing the first year on mars
[20:09] <arko> no clue
[20:09] <arko> probably
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> Surprise party. The martians will jump out and give it a cake.
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> especially as science has been done
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> XD!
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[20:11] <LeoBodnar> rharrison_: B8 is testing atm
[20:12] <LeoBodnar> still alive Upu :)
[20:12] <fsphil> B-7 died
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[20:12] <Upu> oh dammit Leo :)
[20:13] <Upu> blink and I miss your launches :)
[20:13] <Upu> going again tonight ?
[20:13] <LeoBodnar> Need those GPSes!
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[20:13] <LeoBodnar> No, not tonight :)
[20:13] <daveake> If there's a y in the day, Leo has something in the air
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> :)
[20:15] <arko> haha
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[20:16] <Upu> oh put an order in
[20:16] <Upu> they should be here.. 1 sec
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar is becoming the next Vincent Lally
[20:16] <Martin_G4FUI> The business with XABEN yesterday, where it seemed to enter a nice stable float for a couple of hours and then suddenly burst, is that a common occurrence?
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> who was like the father of superpressure balloons
[20:17] <Upu> tomorrow or Wednesday Leo
[20:17] <fsphil> Martin_G4FUI: it can happen yea
[20:17] <fsphil> the balloon may have had a weak spot
[20:18] <Martin_G4FUI> Is the payload likely to be recovered, no-one was chasing it?
[20:18] <fsphil> not sure if steve went after it
[20:18] <craag> he didnt
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[20:19] <craag> his email said the tracker probably had another day in it, and anyone else was welcome to go get it
[20:19] <fsphil> ah, didn't see that
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[20:21] <Martin_G4FUI> Hmm, a missed opportunity for some tree climbing then - I was past that spot on the M6 earlier today!
[20:21] <daveake> someone local was going after it
[20:21] <Upu> I thought I'd go take a look today before I realised it was 2 and 1/2 hours away
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[20:22] <Martin_G4FUI> Had an 8 hour drive as it was, so probably a good thing I never thought of it until now ...
[20:24] <LeoBodnar> Upu: do you have MAX-7s?
[20:25] <Martin_G4FUI> Nice little write-up on ZENITH on www.raspberrypi.org
[20:25] <mikestir> I thought about going for it but it's right at the other side of cheshire
[20:25] <mikestir> still probably an hour from here
[20:25] <Upu> no LeoBodnar not coming in for ages
[20:25] <Upu> Got MAX6G's though
[20:25] <Steve_2E0VET> is it possible to paint ballons?
[20:26] <iain_g4sgx> Upu: Looks like I double booked the conference day. SSB field day I was willing to give up (its the same day) but I have an eco-build expo for work that weekend I cant get out of. I'm willing to donate my ticket to a deserving cause, if anyones struggling to get there.
[20:26] <Upu> its ok we can refund iain_g4sgx just send me a mail with your full name on
[20:26] <LeoBodnar> MAX6Gs will do, placing an order...
[20:27] <Martin_G4FUI> nice gesture, though iain_g4sgx
[20:28] <iain_g4sgx> ok cool, we shall see what happens.
[20:28] #highaltitude: mode change '+o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:28] #highaltitude: mode change '-b Willdude123!*Willdude1@wikipedia/W-D' by Upu!~Upu@2a00:14f0:e028:0:bc58:cd96:74b:223f
[20:28] #highaltitude: mode change '-o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
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[20:28] <Steve_2E0VET> Upu, if that order will be ready tomorrow I could get Karl (G1YPQ) to pick up in the afternoon
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> arko, short question, how long did curiosity take to build?
[20:29] <arko> like assembly?
[20:29] <Upu> Its ready Steve I have the HABamp here
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:29] <Upu> Happy to post
[20:29] <arko> 4-5 yearsish
[20:29] <arko> depends how you define it
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> ah thanks
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> yea a friend was just asking why number 2 will launch in 2020
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> and I said that this is due to all preperations and experiments
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> and thus I was looking for a number for the first one
[20:30] <Steve_2E0VET> Upu, did i order the correct stuff - will it all hang together lol
[20:30] <Upu> I think so :) I'll check it all tomorrow and post if its ok :)
[20:30] <Upu> been a little rushed today
[20:30] <Upu> lol Leo :)
[20:31] <Steve_2E0VET> upu, if i could get it collected that would be better
[20:31] <Upu> entirely up to you Steve
[20:32] <Steve_2E0VET> Upu, i will let you know first thing
[20:32] <Upu> nps thanks
[20:32] <Steve_2E0VET> upu what time do you surface
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> Money! It's a gas!
[20:32] <Upu> at work about 7.30
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, I did think a bot
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> *bit
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> I think I rebuild my tracker
[20:33] <Steve_2E0VET> not this morning lol
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> remove the second GPS and the atmega328 and use the 644 only
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[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> but still bring out the unused pins for later usage
[20:33] <Upu> ok Lunar
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[20:33] <Upu> I'm going regret asking this but why 2 GPS's ?
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[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> ah that was an idea that I had
[20:33] Action: Willdude123 sneaks in
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> did you see the tracker I made?
[20:34] <Upu> Yeah I saw it
[20:34] <Upu> what was the idea ?
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> the idea was, as the TX takes so long, have another chip reading science data and save them on the SD, to get about just 4 sec between samples
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> that was before I learnt interrupts
[20:34] <Upu> oh ok
[20:34] <Upu> you could just use interupts
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> and a friend now asked me what the benefit would be
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> 22 sec per sample at 5 m/s rate would be about 110 m
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> if that would not be enough resolution
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> also I realize my approach was stupid, if the balloon was lost, so would be the SD
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> and thus the research data
[20:36] <Upu> ok fair enough
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[20:36] <cyclops> hi
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> and the good thing is
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> Here's a question I have posed in the "office" the other day. How far a car on a motorway travels in one usec?
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> in case of anything, there are several 40 pin AVRs with the same pinout
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> Not allowed to calculate!
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> I think 324, 644, 1284
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> Just guess
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> motorway is what speed?
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> 100 km/h?
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> = highway
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[20:37] <fsphil> 3.12928 × 10-5 m / usec
[20:37] <fsphil> for 70mph
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> need to feel it usec, not count
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> something around 4 mm for 100 km/h
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> I said less then sheet of paper thickness
[20:39] <LeoBodnar> Some said few feet
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> dang
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> 30 µm says wolframalpha
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, ROFL
[20:40] <LeoBodnar> Amazing if you think how casually we treat usec
[20:40] <fsphil> 0.0312928 m/ms (meters per millisecond)
[20:40] <fsphil> 31.2928 mm/ms (millimeters per millisecond)
[20:40] <fsphil> nice
[20:41] <fsphil> 3cm per ms
[20:41] <Martin_G4FUI> so 60mph is "about an inch per ms"?
[20:42] <Martin_G4FUI> mixing units for fun
[20:42] <fsphil> 31.2928 mm/ms is 70miles/h
[20:42] <LeoBodnar> Sheet of paper = ~50mm pack is 500 sheets = 100µm per sheet
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> So car speed is 3 sheets-of-paper/µsec
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> sorry 0.3 sheets-of-paper/µsec
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> http://thebuglepodcast.com/bugle-216-were-having-a-baby/ - how the royal baby was concieved @11:20
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[20:46] <LeoBodnar> 3-2-1 snap you're back in the room.
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[20:50] <Matt__> Matt_
[20:51] <Willdude123> Erm
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, do you know the so called Fermi problems?
[20:51] <rharrison_> If the weather is to be believed it might be worth disconnecting any antenni from the backs of your radios tomorrow assuming lightening comes!!
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[20:52] <pilgrimpaul> Evening all
[20:52] <mfa298_> we've already had some rumbles down south
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> I can't remember them Lunar_Lander
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> it was about guessing a good answer
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> Ah.
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> I think he had a good example with the question "how many piano repairmen are in Chicago?"
[20:53] <fsphil> looking forward to it rharrison_ :)
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> Ah, I remember that one. That's estimation exercise
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:54] <rharrison_> fsphil, right back to robin hood
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> Very good for physicists
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> on the trinity test he estimated the warhead yield by watching paper being blown away
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[20:55] <LeoBodnar> Who tend to drift off if released at large
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:55] <Willdude123> Wow akismet asks me how much per year I want to pay for it.
[20:55] <Willdude123> It pressurizes me into thinking it's worth more than $0.00
[20:55] <Willdude123> Hmm to pay or not to pay.
[20:56] <arko> good software usually costs money
[20:56] <arko> however, software that costs money isn't always good :)
[20:56] <arko> heh
[20:56] <daveake> It's free for personal use
[20:56] <arko> \o/ yay licensing
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> yea Origin costs $1000
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> but it misses some features I would like
[20:57] <Willdude123> daveake: I know but it asks if I wanna pay for it, well of course I don't.
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[20:57] <Willdude123> Should I have ads?
[20:57] <Willdude123> Might have a donate button :)
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[21:24] <Willdude123> Hmm not sure what to do my first post on.
[21:24] <Willdude123> Where do I start, the NTX2?
[21:25] <Willdude123> This is pretty much a bog-standard setup though.
[21:26] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, document eveything
[21:26] <Willdude123> like?
[21:26] <Willdude123> Being banned from the chan? :P
[21:26] <chrisstubbs> ntx2 and arduino setup, then you mobed onto the bbb
[21:27] <chrisstubbs> yeah stick that on there too, IRC etiquette guide
[21:27] <chrisstubbs> *moved
[21:27] <chrisstubbs> using cheapo as an armrest makes for bad typing
[21:27] <Laurenceb__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eQLe3iIMN7k#t=112s
[21:27] <Laurenceb__> he sounds a little bit too excited
[21:28] <chrisstubbs> "crafted from a single piece of..." where have I heard that before lol
[21:28] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs: I shan't document that.
[21:28] <Martin_G4FUI> did you get to the bottom of yesterday's telemetry problem, chrisstubbs ?
[21:28] <Willdude123> Will start writing tomorrow.
[21:28] <chrisstubbs> Martin_G4FUI, working on it now
[21:28] <chrisstubbs> could have been a few things
[21:29] <chrisstubbs> need to populate a new board and pipe some fake gps data into it
[21:29] <Martin_G4FUI> There was something about the camera coming on ?
[21:29] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs: I won't mention being banned from the channel.
[21:29] <chrisstubbs> Yeah the camera was on from launch which was odd, it should have come on if alt>30000m
[21:30] <chrisstubbs> will go back through the telem logs actually
[21:30] <chrisstubbs> lol will
[21:30] <Martin_G4FUI> Anyhow, it will be an interesting excercise to get to root cause, etc
[21:31] <chrisstubbs> Its pretty much the same code i flew to dartford, then again that didnt cross the meridian
[21:31] <chrisstubbs> could well be meridian probs, but packing up at 12k could also indicate ublox not being in flight mode
[21:31] <Martin_G4FUI> I always feel that the meridian should have a marker post by the side of the M25!
[21:31] <chrisstubbs> the command was sent and the ACK read becuase the flightmode field was set to 1
[21:32] <Willdude123> Why do errors happen when the meridian is crossed?
[21:32] <chrisstubbs> lon gots from +0.0001 to -0.0001
[21:32] <Willdude123> Anyway, someone give me a sample GPGGA sentence, so I can start parsing work.
[21:32] <Willdude123> please
[21:33] <fsphil> um google?
[21:34] <Willdude123> Uhuh
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[21:38] <chrisstubbs> Think we may have a culprit
[21:40] <chrisstubbs> Well, still could be either 808 or nav mode.
[21:41] <chrisstubbs> Gets to about msg 470 then craps out and gps lock goes to 0 for pretty much the rest of the flight
[21:41] <chrisstubbs> http://bit.ly/15CXq4g
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[21:48] <Martin_G4FUI> what struck me as odd whilst I was tracking was that the altitude seemed to be _almost_ stuck, not _absolutely_ stuck ...
[21:48] <Martin_G4FUI> You can see that in the log
[21:48] <Martin_G4FUI> Is that to do with rounding?
[21:50] <chrisstubbs> Need to dig through the datasheets for the neo6 at work tomorow ;)
[21:51] <chrisstubbs> upu could interference from the 808 camera make the ublox reset and lose the navigation mode setting?
[21:51] <Upu> not seem them reset
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> I just had this idea
[21:51] <Upu> they just stop giving out positional information
[21:51] <chrisstubbs> thats my only idea :P
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> launch a balloon with two payloads, one has a 808 the other is as far away
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> as possible
[21:51] <Upu> however
[21:51] <Upu> are you using power saving ?
[21:51] <chrisstubbs> Yes
[21:51] <chrisstubbs> good point
[21:52] <Upu> they can reset if you put power saving on before it gets a lock
[21:52] <Willdude123> Hm just trying to discover how to calculate decimal degrees from the NMEA format.
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[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> hi S_
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> S_Mark,
[21:52] <S_Mark> hey Lunar_Lander
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[21:52] <S_Mark> good thank you
[21:52] <S_Mark> you?
[21:53] <chrisstubbs> It went into power save 2 mins after lock according to my data. But it did lose lock mid flight a couple of times
[21:53] <chrisstubbs> My code only sets nav mode and power save at the start, so could have come out without knowing
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> what do you think about my experiment?
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[21:55] <chrisstubbs> from recent experience
[21:55] <chrisstubbs> I an joining the 808 hate crew
[21:55] <daveake> woohoo
[21:55] <craag> Lunar_Lander: So a larger version of this? :P https://www.thecraag.com/File:CRAAG1_Camera_After_Filling.jpg
[21:55] <chrisstubbs> it has worked okay for me in flight before, but the images are so bad its a waste of time
[21:55] <Upu> seriously I keep telling people
[21:55] <Upu> "but they are sooo cheap"
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:55] <chrisstubbs> lol
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> craag, yeah
[21:55] <craag> They are also tree magnets :(
[21:55] <mattbrejza> tbh should be fine if not in the same box as the gps
[21:55] <Martin_G4FUI> So it's interference from the camera then?
[21:55] <chrisstubbs> we should blend a few at the conf
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:55] <chrisstubbs> Im happy to arrange that
[21:56] <daveake> Or (stares at Upu) outside the same box :p
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> ROFL
[21:56] <Upu> just lol :)
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> I wonder if it would be worth it to test the cameras somehow on the bench
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. in what way they emit interference
[21:57] <S_Mark> did the 808 not go to plan chrisstubbs?
[21:57] <mattbrejza> set your radio to 1.575GHz and wave it around them would be a good start
[21:57] <bertrik> one of those rtlsdr sticks could perhaps be used as a makeshift interference analyzer
[21:57] <chrisstubbs> Lunar_Lander, suitable test equipment? http://brain.pan.e-merchant.com/4/0/08616504/l_08616504.jpg
[21:57] <arko> and wait for the police to arrive
[21:57] <arko> lol
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> chrisstubbs, XD
[21:58] <mattbrejza> is the quality of the picture from those things reasonable though?
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> well it is OK
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> there is a guy who reviews all these cameras
[21:58] <daveake> some are ok
[21:58] <Martin_G4FUI> looks like it may be tempeature related, it only started properly playing up around -25C
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.techmoan.com/
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[21:58] <arko> damn im jealous you guys can fly those mylars
[21:59] <mattbrejza> so it seems if youre careful with your placement of them theyre not a bad option
[21:59] <mattbrejza> arko: cant you?
[21:59] <daveake> there are so many variants it's hard to know what quality you're going to get, and how much interference it'll produce
[21:59] <arko> mattbrejza: against the law in california
[21:59] <mattbrejza> by careful placement i mean 10m up the bit of string
[21:59] <daveake> :)
[21:59] <arko> second offense is a misdemeanor
[21:59] <arko> first time is a $100 fine
[21:59] <arko> which aint bad
[22:00] <mattbrejza> due to releasing an object into airspace, or somethig sillier?
[22:00] <mikestir> do kids that accidentally lose their balloon get the same treatment?
[22:01] <arko> powerlines
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> was this because of this Larry something who flew on his lawnchair across LA?
[22:01] <arko> costs millions
[22:01] <arko> mikestir: heh
[22:01] <Laurenceb__> go to state border?
[22:01] <arko> idiots dont want to run these powerlines underground
[22:01] <chrisstubbs> Martin_G4FUI, thats a good point
[22:01] <arko> Laurenceb__: i was thinking about that
[22:01] <arko> srsly
[22:01] <chrisstubbs> its neo-6 so no TXCO
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> ubuntu edge just topped $1.7M
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[22:03] <mattbrejza> but will it run out of steam after the early discount runs out?
[22:03] <Laurenceb__> what i was wondering
[22:04] <mikestir> is it going to run unity?
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[22:05] <mikestir> or something more usable?
[22:05] <Laurenceb__> hehe
[22:05] <Laurenceb__> i think id rather have anbdroid than unity
[22:05] <fsphil> xfce on a phone yay
[22:05] <Willdude123> I have now extracted lat and long.
[22:06] <mikestir> kde might be interesting - I remember opie
[22:06] <arko> how well do these balloons work? http://www.amazon.com/Latex-Balloon-Premium-Helium-Quality/dp/B006VFMLPU/ref=sr_1_20?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1374530730&sr=1-20&keywords=balloon
[22:06] <Willdude123> Upu: PM
[22:06] <mikestir> that was quite impressive for the time
[22:06] <arko> im looking for an alternative to mylar for floaters
[22:08] <OZ1SKY_Brian> gn all
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[22:11] <Willdude123> Parsing NMEA, finally.
[22:12] <chrisstubbs> Nice work will
[22:12] <chrisstubbs> im off, night all!
[22:12] <arko> nice
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[22:16] <Willdude123> oh god, I like some metal music now.
[22:16] <Willdude123> What is happening to me?
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[22:18] <fsphil> you're ok as long as you don't start liking country music
[22:18] <fsphil> then I'd worry
[22:18] <arko> i've recently started listening to viking metal
[22:18] <arko> Falkenbach
[22:19] <arko> none of that terrible screamo junk
[22:19] <fsphil> I think that's how rar was named, someone listening to screamy metal
[22:20] <Willdude123> lol
[22:20] <Willdude123> I actual did laugh out loud then.
[22:20] <arko> i need to start releasing albums of just me cutting different metals
[22:20] <arko> call myself "True Metal"
[22:20] <arko> rar?
[22:21] <fsphil> RAR file compressor
[22:21] <fsphil> all this reminds me of Slam Tilt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRmdzdlqPxc
[22:22] <Willdude123> Is it worth buying a salae logic for 60 quid?
[22:22] <mattbrejza> have they rejected you
[22:22] <mattbrejza> ?
[22:22] <Willdude123> No, but they gave be a 35% discountcode
[22:23] <Willdude123> *discount code.
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> arko, do you have a moment for a question?
[22:23] <arko> if its quick yeah
[22:23] <mattbrejza> £60 isnt bad i guess, but if you dont have money lying around maybe not
[22:24] <Willdude123> Well, I need to afford an antenna, and maybe a new UBX breakout.
[22:24] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: In solving my previous problem, what would it do that a DMM can't?
[22:25] <Willdude123> Do you think I could get my science teacher to write to them to blag me one for free?
[22:25] <mattbrejza> say your rtty wasnt working or working badly, you could attach it to your circuit, then on your pc you would see the waveform, and could see if you were transmitting too few bits, the timing is off, if there are any glitches etc...
[22:26] <mattbrejza> yea try a teacher
[22:26] <Willdude123> Hmm
[22:27] <Willdude123> I'll ask them if they'd accept a referral from a science teacher to get one for free.
[22:27] <Laurenceb__> http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/oem-comparison-chart/
[22:27] <Laurenceb__> wow this stuff isnt at all bad
[22:27] <Laurenceb__> high voltage too
[22:28] <Laurenceb__> that makes smps easier
[22:29] <Laurenceb__> http://www.st.com/web/catalog/sense_power/FM142/CL1810/SC1517/PF251161
[22:31] <Laurenceb__> http://ugfx.org/news
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> WOW awesome! http://www.bookstore.caltech.edu/jpllab/shop_product_detail.asp?catalog_id=42&catalog_name=&pf_id=6460bf72e8714ed&product_name=Q3VyaW9zaXR5IENyeXN0YWwgQ3ViZQ&type=1&target=shop_product_list.asp
[22:32] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: Is yours particularly useful?
[22:33] <Willdude123> What other situations could I use this in?
[22:33] <mattbrejza> well the latest thing i did was to do comms with a ADC that was SPI
[22:33] <mattbrejza> and you can use it to check what is actually going on
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[22:33] <mattbrejza> was very useful
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[22:34] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb__: I have radically changed my opinion on solar power
[22:34] <Laurenceb__> right
[22:34] <LeoBodnar> I have been a big sceptic
[22:35] <Laurenceb__> that ST thingy looks usable
[22:36] <LeoBodnar> Powerfilm looks like a good company.
[22:36] <Laurenceb__> yeah, that + power film
[22:36] <LeoBodnar> Which probably means Chinese are going to bankrupt it.
[22:37] <LeoBodnar> This ST thingy has EVMs but I can;t find chips for sale
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[22:38] <LeoBodnar> As soon as you get a hang on MPPT it's easier to do it directly by controlling good DC-DC converter yourself
[22:38] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[22:39] <Laurenceb__> i think linear have MPPT, but not sure if it does charge
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> ROFL http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/extra_3/media/nachwuchs115.html (the caption says "Willam and Kate present the Royal descendant. He herited the ears from his dad.")
[22:40] <LeoBodnar> TI had tonnes of MPPT stuff
[22:40] <Laurenceb__> http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/lt-journal/LTJournal-V22N2-01-df-LT3796-XinQi.pdf
[22:41] <LeoBodnar> Haha he does look like Phillip
[22:44] <Laurenceb__> http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3330
[22:45] <Laurenceb__> but its primary cell
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[22:45] <LeoBodnar> There were some really good MPPT chips but the are targeted at high voltage cells (6-40V)
[22:46] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[22:46] <Laurenceb__> but overkill
[22:46] <Laurenceb__> http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/an/slua586a/slua586a.pdf
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[22:49] <LeoBodnar> Well there is at least one really good fact to look up to among all of this! Solar panels love cold! :)
[22:51] <fsphil> they do indeed
[22:51] <fsphil> sadly when it's cold there's usually little sun :)
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[22:53] <Laurenceb__> dunno if that Ti thingy works well at low voltages
[22:53] <Steve_2E0VET> any arduino programmers about got a simple problem i think
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[22:55] <Steve_2E0VET> trying to teach myslef programming for the arduino and going through the examples on their website, but i think one of the programs is correct
[22:55] <Survivor> guys.. what are the possible techniques for retrieving a HAB
[22:56] <Survivor> is it only with a parachute?
[22:56] <Steve_2E0VET> This has no feed in to the positive (+) am i missing something http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/Fade
[22:56] <Willdude123> mattbrejza: After vat and shipping it's 90 quid
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[22:56] <mattbrejza> typical
[22:57] <Survivor> guys.. what are the possible techniques for retrieving a HAB?? Is it only with a parachute??
[22:57] <daveake> Legally, in the UK, yes
[22:57] <daveake> Elsewhere you could do a glider (has been done)
[22:58] <Laurenceb__> http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/an/slua565/slua565.pdf
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[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[23:01] Nick change: ph3-der-1oewe -> ph3-der-loewe
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[23:03] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb__: LiFePo4 are good in cold but they are massive!
[23:03] <LeoBodnar> Energy density -wise
[23:03] <Laurenceb__> http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/SPV1040TTR/497-11288-1-ND/2672709
[23:03] <LeoBodnar> Cheers, missed it
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[23:07] Action: Laurenceb__ zzz
[23:07] <Laurenceb__> cya
[23:09] Nick change: DanielRi1hman -> DanielRichman
[23:09] Possible future nick collision: DanielRichman
[23:10] <LeoBodnar> CU!
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[23:10] <LeoBodnar> Good night guys!
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[23:18] <Willdude123> mattbrejza, got it down to 50 quid!
[23:18] <Willdude123> Which is good.
[23:18] <Willdude123> Means I can afford it.
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[23:21] <mattbrejza> pro negotiator
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[23:28] <Willdude123> I feel a bit guilty now.
[23:28] <SpeedEvil> Got what down to?
[23:28] <Willdude123> The Saleae Logic Analyzer.
[23:29] <SpeedEvil> Oh - congrats.
[23:30] <Willdude123> He's a rea
[23:30] <Willdude123> lly nice guy
[23:30] <Willdude123> He understood my situation.
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[23:31] <SpeedEvil> Sometimes, being 13 is a positive thing.
[23:32] <SpeedEvil> Rarely, perhaps.
[23:32] <Willdude123> What is Hellschreiber ?
[23:32] <Willdude123> How can you decode it by eye?
[23:32] <gonzo__> the devils pen
[23:32] <fsphil> an evil mode
[23:32] <Willdude123> Oh is it like where you can actually see digits in the waterfall
[23:32] <fsphil> not the waterfall
[23:33] <gonzo__> more like a continuopus sstv
[23:34] <Willdude123> So how does it differ from rtty?
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[23:36] <Willdude123> Oh so it actually txes the character, pixel by pixel?
[23:36] <Willdude123> What's the point in that?
[23:36] <Willdude123> Must be slow as hell.
[23:38] <Willdude123> No pun intended.
[23:40] <Willdude123> Heh
[23:40] <Willdude123> Seems old
[23:40] <Willdude123> And useless.
[23:40] <Willdude123> Whyd didn't people just use rtty
[23:48] <gonzo__> 70 yrs agi, filtering and the demodulators were more difficult to make than now
[23:49] <gonzo__> st the mk1 eyeball was used to kelp decode the signals
[23:49] <gonzo__> so
[23:49] <gonzo__> help
[23:58] <Willdude123> The intro is very interesting, will have to ask the parents though.
[00:00] --- Tue Jul 23 2013