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[00:55] <Brunzmeflugen> Anyone on?
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[01:15] <SpeedEvil> sort of
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[03:05] <heathkid> yep
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[04:02] <arko> meh
[04:03] <Brunzmeflugen> I just found one of our TV AM/FM radios
[04:03] <Brunzmeflugen> it has a 5" screen
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[04:59] <heathkid> ZURG?
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[07:54] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Is anyone here?
[07:54] <craag> Jonathan_G4KLX: Good morning :)
[07:54] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Good morning. I've been following the HAB thing for a while, fascinating stuff.
[07:54] <craag> Tends to be a little sleepy at this time on a saturday, flight later though so will get busier!
[07:55] <craag> Cool, are you going to have a go at tracking the flight today?
[07:56] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I bet. I hope to start receiving data soon, just waiting for a cable. I would use my FCD but it's a bit deaf compared to my other radios.
[07:56] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I hope so. But not provide data yet.
[07:57] <craag> FCD will do, I've tracked flights from 100 miles away with 1/4 wire poked into an -rtlsdrs antenna socket..
[07:57] <craag> Didn't get all the data, but got some :)
[07:58] <craag> Are you thinking about doing your own launch?
[07:59] <Jonathan_G4KLX> At some stage. I'm moving down from Notts to Hampshire (for work) in a couple of weeks and hope to get involved with an existing launch team.
[07:59] <craag> Cool! Well there's quite a few of us in Hampshire (I'm at soton uni)
[08:00] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I'll be working near Basingstoke.
[08:00] <craag> There's a couple of guys near Basingstoke building trackers atm, and quite a few more who are just tracking flights!
[08:02] <craag> Well, welcome to our little community, I take it you've found the wiki (our font of all knowledge). Next HAB launch is today at 'around lunchtime'.
[08:02] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I'm a software person although I did hardware in the 80s. Most of my spare time these days is writing D-Star software and currently adding APRS support to my FM repeater controller software.
[08:03] <craag> Great stuff
[08:06] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Is there a place to find upcoming launch info? The tracking page shows old balloons and lacks info on new ones, like frequencies.
[08:06] <craag> The mailing list is the best place
[08:07] <craag> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
[08:07] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I looked there, I still see stuff on the map that isn't announced, it seems.
[08:07] <craag> When people test trackers they'll quite often switch on the upload to make sure they're appearing on the map.
[08:08] <craag> Those will get wiped off before the launch today and it's good courtesy not to do it during a launch.
[08:09] <craag> The track near Newbury was a flight on Wednesday evening.
[08:10] <craag> But all the others are just people testing their trackers at home.
[08:11] <Jonathan_G4KLX> With your RTL-SDR (I have one of those too), what is your software set up?
[08:12] <craag> I have an FCDp+ now which blows it out of the water, but same software, SDRsharp with the audio piped into dl-fldigi.
[08:12] <craag> (on windows)
[08:12] <daveake> Must get one of those
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[08:14] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Using VAC?
[08:14] <craag> Yep
[08:15] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I have an early FCD Pro, when there was a rush to get them, finger on the PayPal button to get in quickly!
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[08:18] Action: craag afk
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[08:22] <Upu> Jonathan_G4KLX also I tend to put up and coming lanches in the info box on http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[08:22] <Upu> however may not get done until the morning before the launch like..now :)
[08:23] <G0TDJ_Steve> Morning Guys!
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[08:23] <Upu> morning Steve
[08:23] <G0TDJ_Steve> I@ve just dropped a new file into your Drop Box Tony ;-)
[08:23] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hi Philip
[08:24] <Upu> cool will check in a sec
[08:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hi Jonathan
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[08:24] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Hi Steve
[08:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'm hoping it will work Tony, I'm not really an expert
[08:25] <G0TDJ_Steve> craag: Can you tell me when the launch is later. I have some stuff to do but I want to catch it
[08:25] <Upu> lovely I can work with that thanks :)
[08:25] <Upu> exit
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[08:25] <G0TDJ_Steve> Let me know if you want it resized up or down
[08:25] <Upu> I'll sort that, depends where I'm going to put it
[08:26] <G0TDJ_Steve> No worries
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[08:27] <G0TDJ_Steve> Are you about Philip?
[08:27] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh no, I see his AFK now
[08:28] <G0TDJ_Steve> TOny, do you know when the launch is today please?
[08:28] <G0TDJ_Steve> Everyone is so busy :D
[08:28] <G0TDJ_Steve> So, Jonathan, what brings you here?
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[08:30] <G0TDJ_Steve> G4KLX de G0TDJ pse K
[08:31] <Herman-PB0AHX> gm to all
[08:31] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hiya Herman-PB0AHX
[08:31] <G0TDJ_Steve> All quiet in here
[08:32] <Jonathan_G4KLX> SOrry Steve, was getting some paperwork ready. Basically I'd like to get involved in HAB stuff.
[08:32] Action: g4fui_mart_linux losing the will to live, wrestling with this stupid OS!
[08:33] <G0TDJ_Steve> No worries Jonathan. Yeah, I've only been around for a couple of weeks. It's interesting stuff. I saw Dave (daveake) on TV and started to do some investigating.
[08:33] <Herman-PB0AHX> I see good message to the tracker page is going to be one fly today
[08:33] <G0TDJ_Steve> g4fui_mart_linux: Linux does my brain in. You just have to do it a step at a time and take loads of notes
[08:34] <G0TDJ_Steve> Herman-PB0AHX: Where is that, I've been looking for it
[08:34] <Herman-PB0AHX> Steve XABEN on 1200 urc got to fly
[08:34] <G0TDJ_Steve> Jonathan_G4KLX: So I eventually found the Tracker page and it led me here.
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[08:35] <Herman-PB0AHX> urc=utc
[08:35] <G0TDJ_Steve> Right, so that will be 1:00pm BST
[08:35] <G0TDJ_Steve> Plenty of time to get my stuff sorted over here
[08:35] <Herman-PB0AHX> here 2pm lt
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[08:36] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I hope to start providing data to the tracker sometime, and get involved in the hardware/software too. I'm moving from Notts to Hants in the near future for work.
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[08:36] <Herman-PB0AHX> steve 20/07/2013 XABEN 1200 UTC Elsworth, UK XABEN1: 434.300MHz uXABEN: 434.350MHz
[08:37] <G0TDJ_Steve> Thanks Herman-PB0AHX
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[08:45] <G0TDJ_Steve> Off out for a while - BBL - 73
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[08:58] <cm13g09> wow - RTLSDR turned up this morning
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[09:10] <fsphil> silly net splits
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[09:14] <Upu> http://imgur.com/gallery/LI6Hjq5
[09:14] <eroomde> what's the differenc between a bison and a buffalo?
[09:15] <eroomde> [this is a Dudley joke i just heard on the radio]
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[09:15] <eroomde> you can't wash your face in a buffalo
[09:15] <Upu> I don't know whats the difference betwee ...
[09:15] <Upu> bah dum
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[09:29] Action: cm13g09 is attempting to play with RTLSDR
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[09:30] <cm13g09> wahoo
[09:30] <cm13g09> I have FM radio ;)
[09:30] <eroomde> radio 4?
[09:30] <eroomde> that was my first rtlsdr hello-world
[09:30] <eroomde> find radio 4.... yes! it works
[09:30] <cm13g09> probably Radio 1 in my case
[09:30] <eroomde> ironically the first time i built it and gqrx the first thing i found was a program about marconi
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[09:31] <cm13g09> 95.3MHz
[09:31] <eroomde> irononoserous
[09:31] <cm13g09> sounds like Radio 4 :P
[09:31] <eroomde> don't knock radio 4
[09:31] <cm13g09> I wasn't
[09:32] <eroomde> i went from about aged 14 to age 40 overnight with the discovery of radio 4
[09:32] <eroomde> it just stayed on from then on
[09:32] <eroomde> 3 or 6 when i need to concentrate and not hear voices
[09:32] <eroomde> otherwise 4
[09:32] <cm13g09> the fun bit... it's not even an ant for 95MHz :P
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[09:33] <eroomde> where are you geographically?
[09:34] <cm13g09> Chelmsford
[09:34] <Maxell> cm13g09: stock antenna right?
[09:34] <Maxell> LOL :P
[09:34] <cm13g09> Maxell: nope
[09:34] <Maxell> :o
[09:34] <cm13g09> it's my sublty dodgy dipole ;)
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[09:35] <eroomde> cm13g09: not sure what is around there (stanstead?) but there's a lot of aircraft traffic on AM
[09:35] <eroomde> around 108-130
[09:35] <Maxell> ah. I wasn't even able to pick up fm radio with the stock antenna
[09:35] <eroomde> you can look up specific freqs online
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[09:36] <cm13g09> OK, I managed to get BBC Essex ;)
[09:37] <cm13g09> right
[09:37] <cm13g09> that may or may not pick up anything
[09:37] <cm13g09> Tuned to 443.300
[09:37] <cm13g09> and now I have to vanish
[09:37] <LazyL-M0LEP> 434.300, hopefully...
[09:38] <LazyL-M0LEP> ;)
[09:38] <cm13g09> LazyL-M0LEP: than you
[09:38] <LazyL-M0LEP> ;)
[09:38] Nick change: LazyL-M0LEP -> LazyLeopard
[09:38] <LazyLeopard> Hmmm... Been a lot of netsplitting this morning...
[09:39] <cm13g09> LazyLeopard: hmm, my dl-fldigi looks rather yellow
[09:39] <cm13g09> it should be blue, right
[09:39] <cm13g09> lol
[09:39] <cm13g09> and I might as well not bother
[09:40] <cm13g09> right
[09:40] <cm13g09> bye!
[09:40] <LazyLeopard> Sounds like you've got something set a little too sensititve...
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[09:42] <Maxell> Yellow? Turn down the AF gain in the sdr
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[09:45] <LeoBodnar> What is point HABbing?
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[09:50] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: i think you've basically had a hab carrier
[09:50] <eroomde> compressed into like 2 weeks
[09:50] <eroomde> a few launches, an existential crisis
[09:50] <eroomde> career*
[09:51] <eroomde> i basically felt this way in about 2009 and apart from the parachute-test drop vehicle, haven't done any habbing since
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[09:51] <eroomde> yet here i am still.
[09:51] <eroomde> tragic.
[09:52] <LeoBodnar> I need to express my opinion on R4 "Down the Line" if they were to make one on HABbing
[09:52] <eroomde> i never really got that programme
[09:52] <LeoBodnar> Get better antenna?
[09:53] <SpeedEvil> I hated it.
[09:53] <LeoBodnar> It's quality is very patchy but good bits are good
[09:53] <eroomde> yeah
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[09:53] <eroomde> i'll give it a chance to find its feet
[09:54] <eroomde> i want something on tv that's good to come back
[09:54] <eroomde> like the thick of it, or getting on
[09:54] <LeoBodnar> I haven't turned on TV for like 0.5 a year
[09:54] <eroomde> i don't have a tv. but iplayer
[09:55] <eroomde> just something darkly funny
[09:55] <LeoBodnar> Do they still transmit moving images?
[09:55] <eroomde> yep
[09:55] <eroomde> ssdv
[09:56] <LeoBodnar> BBC should acquire Dave. He's worth paying license for
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[09:56] <LeoBodnar> And not that other Dave
[09:57] <eroomde> it's just bbc repeats anyway
[09:57] <fsphil> dave is what bbc three should have been
[09:58] <eroomde> 3 is a disaster
[09:58] <fsphil> it so is
[09:58] <eroomde> whenever i'm told it's for my agegroup by someone bbcish i get angry
[09:58] <eroomde> i thought 'His and Hers' was good
[09:59] <fsphil> 'good news' is .. er, good
[09:59] <eroomde> what is good news?
[09:59] <eroomde> oh that standup bloke
[09:59] <LeoBodnar> I think I need a big coffee shot and white noise on a random SW band.
[09:59] <fsphil> yea
[09:59] <fsphil> being human wasn't too bad, though got really stupid at the end
[10:00] <eroomde> i would like them to give bbc4 more money
[10:00] <fsphil> that pretty much sums up bbc3 for me
[10:00] <eroomde> i don't like that radio can have a programme repeated like 3 times in a 24hr period
[10:00] <eroomde> what is the point
[10:00] <fsphil> oh, The Fades was good. but they stopped that too
[10:00] <eroomde> just make it straight-to-iplayer or something
[10:01] <LeoBodnar> Pub quiz question: Can you legally receive SSDV without paying BBC license fee?
[10:02] <eroomde> no there's a debate
[10:02] <eroomde> now*
[10:02] <LeoBodnar> You can't Sky
[10:02] <eroomde> i got an email from me dad
[10:02] <G0TDJ_AFK> Should be fine because it's not a commercial broadcast
[10:02] <fsphil> it's not really video. the V in ssdv is a lie :)
[10:02] <eroomde> who never says anything strongly than 'golly' or 'that is jolly annoying'
[10:02] <eroomde> describing the playing on the proms last night as 'the dog's bollocks'
[10:02] <eroomde> so i guess i should watch it
[10:03] <LeoBodnar> non-conformist antiestablismentiism
[10:04] <eroomde> yes
[10:05] <eroomde> no
[10:05] <LeoBodnar> Today is the decision day!
[10:05] <LeoBodnar> Or is it?
[10:06] <eroomde> i don't understand that r4 comedy either
[10:06] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: did you see Radio 4 in 4 monutes?
[10:06] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdOr5FpLKR8
[10:11] <LeoBodnar> Fake! No Shipping forecast = no Radio 4
[10:12] <LeoBodnar> But very good :)
[10:12] <eroomde> it stops at 8pm
[10:13] <LeoBodnar> It all goes to hell in a hand basket, becoming good later. My life.
[10:13] <eroomde> Bodnar: the wilderness years
[10:13] <LeoBodnar> Looking forward to them
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[10:23] <G7UXW-Kevin> Mornin All whats on the menu for today ???
[10:24] <craag> G7UXW-Kevin: Nothing unfortunately, steve overslept!
[10:25] <G7UXW-Kevin> oh crap
[10:25] <craag> So 2 launches tomorrow instead.
[10:25] <G7UXW-Kevin> well just stare at a blank screen then
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[10:25] <fsphil> this is pushing ISH time to new limits
[10:26] <G7UXW-Kevin> I read about ISH and yes its pushing the limits
[10:26] <craag> G7UXW-Kevin: It's telling you its time to open up your favoured CAD program and get your own tracker on the map!
[10:27] <number10> overslept :( just spent time putting antenna up
[10:28] <G7UXW-Kevin> craag: dont realy have time for my own as I work away all week would like to though floater with relatime video downlink
[10:29] <G7UXW-Kevin> going to consloe my self with a cup of tea
[10:29] <craag> I see no reason why ssdv pico can't be done.
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[10:30] <G7UXW-Kevin> i looked at leo's site last week man they are small
[10:30] <G7UXW-Kevin> and go a long way
[10:30] <craag> Getting it to float with the added weight of a camera might be difficult
[10:31] <fsphil> there are some very light cameras
[10:32] <fsphil> the original c328 camera from sparkfun was very light, but sadly mine didn't survive the first flight
[10:32] <fsphil> and they don't sell them anymore
[10:32] <craag> Have you had any luck with the new sparkfun camera?
[10:33] <fsphil> mostly. but occasionally it returns corrupt images
[10:33] <LeoBodnar> They can be battered by weather if floating too low as we have seen on B-6 flight - it has been pulled down from 7000m to alost ground level
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[10:34] <LeoBodnar> I think light latex is easier to float for SSDV purposes
[10:34] <craag> Yeah I've got netting on order to give the superpressure 100g idea a go.
[10:35] <fsphil> this can return jpegs apparently: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8668
[10:35] <LeoBodnar> I considered that too but foils are so much less stress :)
[10:35] <fsphil> but I suspect it does so at high speed
[10:35] <fsphil> would need enough ram on the microcontroller
[10:35] <craag> LeoBodnar: Absolutely, I have a spare foil lying around and will be testing a tracker on that first :)
[10:37] <craag> fsphil: Comments on that page aren't encouraging.
[10:37] <eroomde> oh LeoBodnar
[10:37] <eroomde> i found a paper on super-pressure icing at 300mB
[10:37] <eroomde> it did also re-iterate the instability of super-pressure balloons beneath the tropopause
[10:37] <fsphil> craag: yea. easier just to get a proper sensor and do the jpeg encoding on the micro
[10:38] <fsphil> we need a bigger foil eroomde
[10:38] <eroomde> yus
[10:38] <LeoBodnar> Yes, it is an interesting effect, why did we not hear more about it?
[10:39] <eroomde> had never thought about it for more than 2 mions before
[10:40] <LeoBodnar> There does not seem to be any natural way of stopping it hitting the ground on the way down - apart from emergency ballast drop
[10:41] <eroomde> bigger foil higher float?
[10:41] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: Paper link please?
[10:41] <LeoBodnar> As soon as system density is lower
[10:41] <eroomde> it's in my mendeley at work
[10:41] <eroomde> might take me a min to find
[10:41] <eroomde> bear with
[10:41] <LeoBodnar> 37g envelope weight for 0.1m^2 volume seems ridiculously high
[10:42] <LeoBodnar> I'm coffinating meanwhile so should be good to operate in a few minutes.
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[10:43] <LeoBodnar> * 0.1m^3 volume
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> remember square cube.
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> at small sizes it hurts
[10:44] <LeoBodnar> Cubism follower?
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[10:45] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
[10:45] <OZ1SKY_Brian> DL0TTM is just covering the tip of uk now
[10:46] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0450(1968)007%3C0626%3ATOOIOC%3E2.0.CO%3B2
[10:46] <eroomde> but can't find the actual pdf at the mo
[10:47] <LeoBodnar> ? http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/1520-0450%281968%29007%3C0626%3ATOOIOC%3E2.0.CO%3B2
[10:48] <eroomde> look i haven't had coffee yet
[10:48] <LeoBodnar> Thanks eroomde - this is pure pron
[10:48] <eroomde> interesting to note that relative gas temperatures they found
[10:49] <eroomde> really significantly hotter inside the balloon
[10:49] <LeoBodnar> Qualatex should link to it from their website and sponsor the research
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[10:54] <Froggy2684> Morning all
[10:54] Nick change: Froggy2684 -> Steve_2E0VET
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[10:55] Nick change: Gadget-Mac_ -> Gadget-Mac
[10:56] <Willdude123> Hi
[10:57] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: I like the simplicity of position tracking. Tube with photosensor and the Sun position navigation.
[10:57] <LeoBodnar> Oh, 1968
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[10:59] <bertrik> migration routes of birds have been tracked by tiny devices on the bird measuring light levels and correlating later with sunrise/set times
[11:00] <fsphil> they use that to track swifts
[11:01] <bertrik> pretty cool I think :)
[11:01] <LeoBodnar> ingenious
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[11:02] <eroomde> difficult though unless you know the speed, right?
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[11:03] <eroomde> i mean, i can see rise and set times are a functiong of longitutude
[11:03] <LeoBodnar> Now I understand why you can't design solar panel equipment in this country.
[11:03] <eroomde> for a statis thing, day length is a function of latitude
[11:03] <eroomde> but moving around messes up some assumptions
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[11:03] <eroomde> are you flying faster at a lower latitude or slower and a higher latitude?
[11:03] <eroomde> for a given day length...
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[11:04] <LeoBodnar> Is there anything that can be used in the lab to test solar panels?
[11:04] <Upu> big torch ?
[11:04] <Willdude123> eroomde: I haven't got a soldering iron atm, so can't use the UBX just yet. What do you think I should do in the meantime, to prepare? Should I read the Hardware Integration Manual?
[11:05] <Willdude123> I guess setting up the relevant serial port is a good idea.
[11:05] <eroomde> hmm, you could try and use the uart in 'loopback
[11:05] <LeoBodnar> Wrong colour temperature
[11:05] <eroomde> i.e. plug the tx into the rx of the BBB
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[11:05] <eroomde> so see if you can send a byte and then see it appear as being received
[11:06] <mfa298> Willdude123: or you could use your ftdi cable to send data to the uart used for gps and work on the code to read in the gps data
[11:06] <eroomde> that too
[11:07] <Willdude123> eroomde: But I can't, I need to solder jumper wires to 3v3 tx and rx
[11:07] <Willdude123> mfa298: That's a great idea.
[11:08] <mfa298> Willdude123: for eroomde's idea you just need to connect rx to tx on the BBB, that should just need a suitable wire into the sockets on the BBB.
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[11:09] <Willdude123> I don't really follow.
[11:09] <Willdude123> Ah
[11:09] <Willdude123> I see, to test it.
[11:09] <mfa298> that would allow you to send a character on the bbb to the serial and then read that same character back.
[11:10] <mfa298> you could even connect one uart on the BBB to another and use something like minicom on one uart to send data to the other (which your program talks to) - Similar idea to the ftdi but doing it all on the BBB
[11:11] <eroomde> that's not a bad idea at all
[11:11] <Herman-PB0AHX> wat is frequentie of DL0TTM-1
[11:12] <craag> Herman-PB0AHX: It's APRS-tracked.
[11:12] <Herman-PB0AHX> mmm bad
[11:12] <Herman-PB0AHX> for me
[11:12] <craag> But does have some SSTV down on 144.200 I think.
[11:12] <craag> *145.200
[11:16] <Herman-PB0AHX> I hear speak but no SSTV
[11:16] <Herman-PB0AHX> yesssss now i heart him
[11:16] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 145.200
[11:16] <OZ1SKY_Brian> looks like burst
[11:17] <craag> yep
[11:17] <Willdude123> Unfortunately it's incredibly difficult to enable uarts on the BBB
[11:17] <Laurenceb_> weaponized battle ferret
[11:18] <Upu> http://shouldireadthedailymail.com/
[11:18] <OZ1SKY_Brian> lol
[11:18] <eroomde> Willdude123: so that's a good challenge to start with in itself :)
[11:19] <Willdude123> Yeah
[11:21] <Willdude123> In the wiki sample code, rx is connected to rx. Why?
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[11:23] <eroomde> don't know
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[11:26] <Steve_2E0VET> Anyone know what kit is used in DL0TTM-1 for APRS tracking
[11:27] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Steve_2E0VET SP9UOB tracker
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[11:31] <F5mvo> Hello all
[11:31] <LeoBodnar> Hi F5mvo
[11:32] <F5mvo> LeoBodnar: hi , how do you report DL0TTM-1 on spacenaer ?
[11:32] <LeoBodnar> I think it uses APRS on 2m band
[11:33] <LeoBodnar> Herman-PB0AHX is tracking it on 145.200 as well
[11:35] <Herman-PB0AHX> he going down now
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[11:35] <fsphil> I had a listen for the sstv but 40m is seriously noisy here atm
[11:35] <fsphil> even if it was there I doubt I'd hearit
[11:35] Nick change: guy -> Guest5414
[11:36] <Herman-PB0AHX> i hrd sstv and voice and packet on 145.200 in fm
[11:36] <fsphil> this is thing thing about sstv, we can't all watch :)
[11:36] <F5mvo> how is the aprs gateway 2m> spacenear ?
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[11:38] <F5mvo> 9005m
[11:38] <LeoBodnar> Good question, does spacenear pulls this data from aprs.fi or something pushes it to spacenear ?
[11:39] <F5mvo> that is the question hi !
[11:39] <mfa298> I think there's a script that pulls data from aprs.fi
[11:40] <F5mvo> because not aprs on DL-FLDIGI
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> I don't know much about APRS
[11:41] <Steve_2E0VET> Is aprs allowed for balloons in the uk
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> no
[11:41] <mfa298> Steve_2E0VET: not at present (at least on AR bands)
[11:41] <mfa298> the license prohibits use airborne
[11:42] <Steve_2E0VET> I thought I heard it somewhere, shame
[11:43] <mfa298> you could use aprs on the 434 ISM but there's not much point - the current dl-fldigi system works well for the UK
[11:43] <fsphil> There is a script running that queries aprs.fi
[11:43] <Steve_2E0VET> How do balloons get the data onto apes.fi in the UK because I am sure I have tracked them in the past
[11:43] <fsphil> it's possible to use APRS on ISM bands
[11:43] <fsphil> or they forwarded the data
[11:44] <fsphil> *hopefully* they where not transmitting on 144.800
[11:44] <fsphil> that part of the license is quite explicit
[11:45] <mfa298> the only balloon I'm aware of that used a UK callsign on aprs was Upu, but that was only when it was outside the UK (and over countries that allowed airborne AR)
[11:45] <mfa298> which nicely proved how silly the rules can be!
[11:45] <fsphil> totally
[11:46] <fsphil> hopefully that condition can be removed sometime in the future
[11:46] <mfa298> hopefully, there's lots of nice things we can try if allowed :D
[11:56] <Jonathan_G4KLX> What stops APRS being used on the 434 ISM band?
[11:57] <mfa298> just that there's no listeners by default
[11:57] <Jonathan_G4KLX> We have to make an effort to listen for RTTY so why not APRS, same difference.
[11:57] <mfa298> and you can't do it as AR so you're limited to 10mW
[11:58] <craag> Jonathan_G4KLX: RTTY is far better than 1200 baud AX.25 at low power.
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[11:58] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I understand the difference in the modulation techniques could be a loss of some dBs but AX.25 could be done as FSK instead.
[11:58] <mfa298> rtty will work better with 10mW and normally runs continuously
[11:58] <craag> There was a flight launched using APRS on 434, I think mfa298 was the only one able to track it and he was pretty much underneath.
[11:59] <craag> UKHAS RTTY is also far easier to implement.
[11:59] <Jonathan_G4KLX> RTTY only works better because of the modulation technique, the best overall would be a PSK based system.
[11:59] <craag> Yep, but then you need a PSK transmitter module..
[11:59] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Indeed, so FSK is simpler, so why not 300Bd FSK APRS?
[12:00] <mfa298> people have run dominoEX but it requires more effort on the TX side
[12:00] <craag> Because the UKHAS standard is so much easier to implement than APRS/AX25.
[12:00] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Hmmmmm, not convinced.
[12:00] <Maxell> APRS on 144.8 rocks because eveyone already has high mount good antennes
[12:00] <Jonathan_G4KLX> APRS/AX.25 is trivial also, been there done that.
[12:00] <Maxell> and they are on 24/7
[12:00] <Maxell> automaticly
[12:01] <mfa298> what benefit would 300bd FSK ARPS on 434 give over RTTY ?
[12:01] <Maxell> finer detail on gps loc
[12:01] <Maxell> and altitude
[12:01] <Maxell> or even all the extra sensors
[12:01] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Higher data rate, APRS packets are very short (Mic-E format) so more position reports and able to lose more yet still get good tracking data.
[12:02] <Maxell> APRS is europa-wide
[12:02] <Maxell> Thats the main advantage
[12:02] <mfa298> we've had 600bd rtty fairly happily.
[12:02] <Maxell> It's all automaticly, so no one has to tune
[12:02] <craag> mfa298: That is with FEC though..
[12:02] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Which FEC is used?
[12:02] <craag> RS coding, can't remember the exact puncture rate.
[12:02] <Maxell> BAH-ish... ish strikes again
[12:03] <Maxell> It's 1200 utc right?
[12:03] <mfa298> Maxell: we're talking about ARPS using 434MHZ with FSK so not europe wide.
[12:03] <Maxell> I don't see any advantage...
[12:03] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I'm more concerned about efficiency than anything else.
[12:04] <mfa298> I'd agree that having APRS on 144.8 would be better (but it's not allowed legally in all countries)
[12:04] <LeoBodnar> Where's fun if it is already there and 24/7 automatic. Robots tracing robots.
[12:04] <Jonathan_G4KLX> That's a huge oversimplification.
[12:04] <craag> Bell 202 over FM (current APRS modulation), is really inefficient.
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[12:05] <craag> Jonathan_G4KLX: I see what you're saying. AX25 instead of UKHAS packes.
[12:05] <Jonathan_G4KLX> We know that.
[12:05] <Jonathan_G4KLX> APRS Mic-E format is very efficient, very few bytes for a lot of data.
[12:06] <craag> THe UKHAS standard was designed to be simple.
[12:06] <Steve_2E0VET> There's always d-star lol
[12:06] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I like simple.
[12:06] <craag> (yet still a lot of groups seem to get it wrong)
[12:06] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Been there done that too, it's a good mode.
[12:06] <craag> Mic-E is a bit too complex for most.
[12:07] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I've been learning it for a project of mine, adding it to my FM repeater controller.
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[12:07] <bertrik> craag: to transmit or to receive?
[12:07] <craag> HaTTY is a stale project designed to optimise the character set of RTTY for standard packets.
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[12:07] <craag> Also get rid of start/stop bits, which would be the ultimate efficiency really.
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[12:08] <craag> bertrik: To TX, some people struggle enough with avoiding errors when processing lat/lon on UKHAS packets. Mic-E is quite a bit more complex in that regard.
[12:09] <Laurenceb_> <Steffanx> Im going to find myself a 2 year old project too, just to update the line endings :D
[12:09] <Laurenceb_> <dongs> if it was Laurenceb_ he'd stop after the 2 year old part.
[12:09] <Laurenceb_> i lolled
[12:10] <craag> But, the current standard works for simple telemetry, fsphil has optimised it for SSDV. and we'll never do video on it, so not much reason to improve it.
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[12:10] <Steffanx> meh, Laurenceb_
[12:10] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> Something simple like a fixed baud-rate sentance with say 30 bytes of data and 10 bytes of FEC.
[12:11] <Lunar_LanderU> craag: if you are at the keyboard, I just tested the circuit on the scope with a 20 ms timebase
[12:11] Nick change: D001_ -> Steve_2E0VET
[12:11] <Lunar_LanderU> the oscillation fits
[12:11] <Lunar_LanderU> so it is the net that is one disturbance there for sure
[12:11] <craag> Lunar_LanderU: heh, mains hum.
[12:11] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
[12:11] <craag> Of course that won't (shouldn't) be there in flight!
[12:11] <Lunar_LanderU> yeah
[12:11] <Lunar_LanderU> then I got one of these round cake plate things from the kitchen
[12:11] <Lunar_LanderU> it's metal
[12:12] <Lunar_LanderU> I placed it over the board and the oscillation temporarly disappeared
[12:12] <craag> SpeedEvil: Apart from long-range float flights though, there isn't much reason to need FEC.
[12:13] <Lunar_LanderU> interestingly the output swings when the batteries are removed from the system
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[12:14] <LeoBodnar> Jonathan_G4KLX: people flown balloons with Hell mode
[12:14] Nick change: g4fui_mart -> Martin_G4FUI
[12:15] <craag> The biggest problem at the moment for simple tracking is transmitter drift IMO. So Matt coded his java decoder, which works fantasticly, and Leo put together his GPSDO TX, which also solves the problem.
[12:15] <LeoBodnar> sorry, that was @ Jonathan_G4KLX
[12:16] <Steve_2E0VET> reading all this i am really really confused lol
[12:16] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: which bit?
[12:17] <Steve_2E0VET> all of it LOL
[12:17] <Steve_2E0VET> seriously, i am new to all this, and all i want to do is put an rf transmitter to track the ballon, possibly an NTX2 (with Funcube) and track on APRS.FI or similar
[12:18] <steve-g7vrk> think i got lot of reading up to do as well after noon all
[12:18] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Yep, so arduino, NTX2 and ublox GPS board are all you need.
[12:19] <Steve_2E0VET> i'm actually thinking of going to the conference to see if i can pick some tips up
[12:19] <mfa298> Steve_2E0VET: that's a fairly normal setup but track on spacenear.us rather than aprs.fi
[12:19] <craag> You should! There'll be people there with trackers, and a few workshops as well!
[12:19] <Steve_2E0VET> ok, got the ardunio uno and about to order the ntx2, i will have a look at the ublox
[12:19] <Herman-PB0AHX> Hee BIZZ is back op the map
[12:20] <bertrik> SpeedEvil: so, something like a binary format?
[12:20] <mfa298> you can get the ntx2 and ublox from the hab supplies store
[12:20] <craag> There's tons of example code on the wiki, walking you through getting 1010 FSK, then packets.
[12:20] <Steve_2E0VET> change of subject, when people reply to me they put my nick in the text line, is that automatic or do you need to type it manually
[12:21] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Manual, but you can type the first few letters and press tab
[12:21] <Steve_2E0VET> yeah i spoke to anthony yesterday (he is only up tyhe road from me), really nice guy to deal with and very helpful
[12:21] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, excellent
[12:22] <fsphil> Steve_2E0VET: spacenear.us is a much better tracking website .. you get live predictions :)
[12:23] <craag> bbl lunch
[12:24] <fsphil> oooh I didn't realise it was that time
[12:24] Action: mfa298 blames the lack of flights
[12:24] <Lunar_LanderU> when I inspected Upu's interrupt code, I noticed something, he does not define F_CPU
[12:24] <Lunar_LanderU> why is that?
[12:25] <fsphil> arduino does it
[12:25] <Lunar_LanderU> ah
[12:25] <fsphil> well I hope it does :)
[12:25] <Lunar_LanderU> that is why there are settings for 16 and 8 MHz chips for the compiler
[12:25] <craag> Jonathan_G4KLX: btw, I'm not trying to be aggressive, just explaining why no-one is using AX.25 at the moment. If you want to use it and you patch dl-fldigi/write some software to track it, we'll be very happy to use it!
[12:25] <fsphil> Lunar_LanderU: yea. I think it passes it in as a flag during compile
[12:25] <Lunar_LanderU> ah
[12:25] <fsphil> -DF_CPU or something
[12:26] <Lunar_LanderU> ah, good to know
[12:26] <Lunar_LanderU> thanks!
[12:27] <LeoBodnar> Yeah, Jonathan_G4KLX and be ready for Willdude123 questions
[12:28] <Willdude123> Upu: Around? I need some help with U-Center.
[12:28] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I'd write my own software, not modify DL-FLDIGI, all open source of course.
[12:28] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Why the down on FEC?
[12:29] <fsphil> ssdv uses fec
[12:29] <LeoBodnar> Haha, just notice 'd bit
[12:29] <fsphil> right, lunch!
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> bertrik: basically normal ascii, with a long 'checksum' that happens to work for FEC if you treat the whole packet as a binary blob
[12:30] <Willdude123> Should the UBX send NMEA by default, when on.
[12:30] <Willdude123> ?
[12:31] <LeoBodnar> What's UBX?
[12:31] <G0TDJ_AFK> Short for Ublox?
[12:31] <LeoBodnar> UBX != UBLOX
[12:32] <eroomde> Willdude123: small technically, UBX is an alternative ublox-specific language to nmea
[12:32] <eroomde> nmea is the common language all gps units speak
[12:32] <eroomde> and has been around for probably a few decades now
[12:33] <eroomde> ubx is a spicific protocol ublox made to let you access extra features specific to their gps units
[12:33] <mfa298> Jonathan_G4KLX: one of the main limitiations is that we mostly use dl-fldigi for recieving and sending the data to habhub/spacenear.us so that limits the modes used.
[12:33] <eroomde> you might need to use it to tell the ublox to be in flight mode eventually, but no need to worry about it for now
[12:34] <gonzo_mob> i would like to see some fec. the dominoex that leo flew was such an improvement over rtty. add fec to that...
[12:34] <eroomde> the standard allows it too. it was quite basic but it worked pretty well iirc
[12:35] <Jonathan_G4KLX> It's only software.....
[12:35] <eroomde> i'm quite sure with effort at the tx and rx we could routinely and reliably get up to 1.2kbps from a hab
[12:35] <eroomde> with a good enough BER
[12:35] <eroomde> then if we could go bidirectional
[12:36] <eroomde> basically can telnet into the hab
[12:36] <mfa298> I suppose for most people fec has been an additional bit of coding that's not been seen as giving much benefit - The distributed manner of listening and having human readable output works as well
[12:36] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Up to the HAB is easy as the transmitter is not power constrained.
[12:36] <Jonathan_G4KLX> FEC not giving any benefit!!! My god!!!
[12:36] <eroomde> indeed, though people can legally wobby about using ham to talk to no-ham equipment
[12:36] <gonzo_mob> yep it is limited
[12:37] <LeoBodnar> Usually there is a massive footprint of listeners directly under the balloon so FEC will only please 5-10% on the periphery maybe but will not be a game-changer.
[12:37] <mfa298> if we started having the data in a format that isn't human readable then fec would have a lot of benefit.
[12:37] <Jonathan_G4KLX> There are many closed minded knobs in our hobby.
[12:37] <craag> Jonathan_G4KLX: THe signal tends to be all there (above horizon), or not (below horizon).
[12:37] <LeoBodnar> Or paradigm-shifter or other business speak BS
[12:37] <eroomde> well it's not human-readible now
[12:37] <eroomde> we reply on fldigi to make it human readible
[12:38] <eroomde> dlfligi at some point turns a string of bits into stuff that makes sense to us
[12:38] <jarod> can someone please paste the space... link?
[12:38] <eroomde> fec doesn't really change that
[12:38] <LeoBodnar> Jonathan_G4KLX: show your work
[12:38] <jarod> i delete all my browser stuff :P
[12:38] <jarod> d
[12:39] <mfa298> can still be human readable if you look at the audio trace but that's a slow process.
[12:39] <Jonathan_G4KLX> What work: Linux AX.25, NET/ROM and ROSE protocols. Also X.25 and LAPB. Microwave SDR software, and the most commonly used D-Star gateway and repeater software. And you?
[12:39] <jarod> the balloon tracker website is?
[12:39] <gonzo_mob> fec would help getting the last packets on landing
[12:39] <craag> jarod: spacenear.us/tracker
[12:40] <LeoBodnar> YOu are a coder basically?
[12:40] <Willdude123> Can I get a map view on u-center?
[12:40] <gonzo_mob> and make it more satisying for individual users
[12:40] <jarod> gracias
[12:40] <Jonathan_G4KLX> ALso FEC helps with non optimum receivedd signals, even when above the horizon, balloons in IO91 aren't strong here in IO93.
[12:40] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Also microwave transverters just for fun.
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[12:41] <Willdude123> Hi chrisstubbs
[12:41] <Jonathan_G4KLX> LeoBodnar: Why the negativity?
[12:41] <eroomde> fec would go up *massively* if we made better use of dlfldigi
[12:42] <chrisstubbs> hi will
[12:42] <LeoBodnar> Losing 50% of data from a balloon due to lack of FEC is not an issue at all.
[12:42] <eroomde> if the raw bitstreams got uploaded you'd for zero effort get an Rn code
[12:42] <eroomde> were n is the number of listeners
[12:42] <eroomde> weighted by snr or something
[12:42] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I'd need FEC here to make it usable.
[12:42] <LeoBodnar> Precis. It would be great to have it auto-configured for a start
[12:42] <eroomde> Jonathan_G4KLX: where are you?
[12:42] <Willdude123> eroomde: Are you familiar with u-center?
[12:42] <Jonathan_G4KLX> North of Nottingham.
[12:42] <eroomde> Willdude123: nope sorry
[12:42] <Willdude123> Ah
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[12:43] <eroomde> i've only ever confugued them eith the datasheet
[12:43] <Willdude123> I think google earth has a built in nmea parser.
[12:43] <eroomde> Jonathan_G4KLX: signal should be fine up there i'd have thought
[12:43] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Not that strong. 10mW even LOS still has free space path loss.
[12:43] <eroomde> so long as you've line of sight, it's not really a prob
[12:43] <eroomde> at our data rates
[12:43] <chrisstubbs> Any software developer that makes you download a 66mb progrtam just to copy files to a phone needs to be shot in the head
[12:44] <eroomde> modoulo local interference
[12:44] <LeoBodnar> I have seen a few hobbies where fast technical advances killed the underlying fun
[12:44] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Possible, so FEC would be useful.
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: And if the raw signal (well, sampled) got uploaded, you 'd get even a little better than a Rn code
[12:44] <Jonathan_G4KLX> LeoBodnar: In the case of AR I completely disagree, we are living in a golden age, and I've been licenced since 1979.
[12:45] <LeoBodnar> AR is not one of them
[12:45] <Lunar_LanderU> eroomde: got a good news
[12:45] <Willdude123> Someone should do a thing with the UBX and just let people track them all day.
[12:45] <eroomde> i dunno, lack of technical advancement has put me off hab a bit. but i'm just thay way inclined. i also don't want to go and fly the same model aeroplane every sunday
[12:45] <eroomde> just me
[12:46] <Willdude123> And wear a smallish arduino.
[12:46] <Lunar_LanderU> well yea, was related to my questions
[12:46] <Lunar_LanderU> next to me is my arduino uno
[12:46] <Lunar_LanderU> writing line numbers to the PC on the serial
[12:46] <Lunar_LanderU> and blinking the onboard LED with the interrupt
[12:46] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[12:46] <eroomde> nice!
[12:46] <eroomde> progress
[12:46] <eroomde> well done
[12:46] <Lunar_LanderU> thanks
[12:46] <gonzo_mob> as eroomde mentioned, fec would be an extra hurdle to many builders. as most are struggling to learn enough programming to get a basic tracker tx working
[12:47] <LazyLeopard> FEC would however be useful as an alternative 'checksum' in dl-fldigi.
[12:47] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I love Arduinos, so easy to do hard real-time work on. Could possibly do the same with the RPi but need a device driver for the real time acces to the GPIO pins.
[12:47] <LeoBodnar> I hate them lol
[12:47] <mfa298> Jonathan_G4KLX: there's nothing to stop you trying something new* (as Leo did with DominoEX) but if you want other receivers it needs to be simple enough to receive. (* yes eroomde I realise DominoEX was done several years ago, but it was new for a lot of the people here now)
[12:47] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Make the FEC code available as open source, simples.
[12:47] <gonzo_mob> i see no reason for individual builders not to add fec if they want. experimenting is what it's all about
[12:48] <bertrik> gonzo_mob: but many people are using arduino, sure someone could make a lib for that?
[12:48] Nick change: G0TDJ_AFK -> G0TDJ_Steve
[12:48] <G0TDJ_Steve> 'Afternoon...
[12:48] <gonzo_mob> what would yiou write the open fec in?
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[12:48] <Jonathan_G4KLX> FEC isn't rocket science.
[12:48] <Jonathan_G4KLX> C probably.
[12:48] <LeoBodnar> FEC code IS open source
[12:49] <LazyLeopard> It would need to be in dl-fldigi (et al.) if it was going to be any use.
[12:49] <G0TDJ_Steve> mfa298: Jonathan_G4KLX I hadn't ever used Domino until I tracked Leo's HABs
[12:49] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Any given implementation isn't necessarily open source. How about Turbo Codes?
[12:49] <gonzo_mob> there are lots of different platforms in use.
[12:49] <eroomde> we implemeneted dominoex in about 30 minutes for our flight years ago. it's all there in the fldigi source. was just copy and paste
[12:49] <gonzo_mob> turbo codes are licenced are they not?
[12:50] <Jonathan_G4KLX> The AO-40 FEC reference code was written in C, I converted it to IPS for the satellite.
[12:50] <eroomde> just had to supply a function to map the numbers onto the DAC
[12:50] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Turbo codes aren't open, AMSAT got a special licence to use them.
[12:51] <LeoBodnar> I would argue that sending AX.25 or FEC based balloon up would increase efforts by an order of magnitude but will make no impact on how much fun you get back.
[12:51] <eroomde> there are better things than turbocoes anyway
[12:51] <Jonathan_G4KLX> Such as?
[12:51] <Upu> Hey LeoBodnar
[12:51] <Upu> talking of Arduinos and FEC
[12:51] <G0TDJ_Steve> Can someone tell me, is the Google Group UKHAS moderated? I posted somethhing there and it hasn't shown up.
[12:51] <eroomde> well all sorts
[12:51] <eroomde> low density parity check codes
[12:51] <Upu> My DAC + 328 + LMT2 is doing RTTY and any DominoEX mode you fancy
[12:52] <LeoBodnar> Upi: low thought density day
[12:52] <LeoBodnar> in here
[12:52] <Jonathan_G4KLX> LDPC only show advantages with very long data sequences, otherwise turbo codes come out on top.
[12:52] <gonzo_mob> if there were a ground decoder that will do fec and example code. it would be up to individuals to decide to use it
[12:52] <Jonathan_G4KLX> FEC encoding is usually trivial, it's the decoder that is entertaining.
[12:52] <eroomde> yes that is true, though i think very long can be as short as 1000 bits
[12:53] <gonzo_mob> there ars no prescribed modes. just lessons learned and resources avail, that steer things
[12:53] <Herman-PB0AHX> does anyone know what time the launch is expected XABEN1: uXABEN:
[12:53] <LeoBodnar> Cool when are you flying it?
[12:53] <Steve_2E0VET> fsphil, how would i get the tracking info onto spacenear.us
[12:53] <Upu> not sure it needs a GPS on it now
[12:53] <Upu> had it running DomEX22 and 16
[12:53] <gonzo_mob> the stratodean talk about to start
[12:53] <chrisstubbs> Has rocketboy said anything about him clashing frequencies with us tomorow?
[12:53] <Upu> just playing with RTTY now thanks to fsphil got it working in interrupt routine
[12:54] <LazyLeopard> G0TDJ_Steve: You did send it from the email address you're subscribed under, presumably...
[12:54] <Upu> (wire library in Arduino screws interrupt on timer1)
[12:54] <mfa298> Steve_2E0VET normally data is sent to habhub.org from dl-fldigi
[12:54] <LeoBodnar> I can't do both at once :) Needs xtal change
[12:54] <G0TDJ_Steve> I typed it in right on the page
[12:54] <Upu> I know :)
[12:54] <Upu> Sure this could do quite a few modes
[12:54] <mfa298> Steve_2E0VET: the data is then sent from habhub to spacenear.us (and other map based trackers)
[12:55] <LeoBodnar> Do AX.25 with FEC
[12:55] <eroomde> repeat-accumulate codes are very interesting too Jonathan_G4KLX
[12:55] <Upu> is THOR the FEC mode based on DominoEX ?
[12:55] <eroomde> their performace is astoundingly good, and they're very simple to encode and decode
[12:56] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I've never heard of those.
[12:56] <Steve_2E0VET> are ok thanks
[12:56] <eroomde> have a good
[12:56] <eroomde> goog*
[12:56] <LeoBodnar> Yes, I think they have pinched it from MFSK16/THOR
[12:56] <eroomde> there's a chapter on them in Mackay's textbook
[12:56] <Upu> might be worth a fiddle
[12:57] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I don't have that book.
[12:57] <LeoBodnar> dl-fldigi needs to include FEC in autoconfigure option
[12:57] <eroomde> it's free online
[12:58] <eroomde> and he invented (or redicovered) LDPC codes
[12:58] <eroomde> it's the best book on information theory i've got, and his course was the best i've ever taken. I like it :)
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[12:58] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> hi all
[12:59] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> Mark and Cassie now presenting at the AMSAT-UK Colloquium
[12:59] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> http://batc.tv/ch_live.php
[12:59] <Herman-PB0AHX> hoi wouter
[13:00] <Jonathan_G4KLX> eroomde: Can you send me the URL please?
[13:00] <eroomde> www.cs.toronto.edu/~mackay/itprnn/ps/584.589.ps.gz
[13:00] <eroomde> specific chapter
[13:00] <G0TDJ_Steve> Wouter-[pa3weg]: Which channel please?
[13:01] <eroomde> www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/itila/
[13:01] <Upu> Go to http://batc.tv/
[13:01] <eroomde> whole book ^
[13:01] <Upu> click live events
[13:01] <Upu> and then amsat
[13:01] <G0TDJ_Steve> Thanks Tony :D
[13:01] <Upu> nice GPS module
[13:01] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> AMSAT2013
[13:02] <Jonathan_G4KLX> The .ac.uk server appears to be down :-(
[13:02] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> AMSAT-UK 2013 to be more precise
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[13:02] <eroomde> so it does
[13:02] <eroomde> that's bad
[13:02] <Steve_2E0VET> how does the adafruit compare with the ubx
[13:02] <eroomde> toronto url route should have the whole book too
[13:03] <eroomde> what gps unit does the adafruit use Steve_2E0VET ?
[13:03] <Upu> MTK
[13:03] <eroomde> one is a gps on a breakout board, the other is a gps. apples vs pears
[13:03] <Upu> and it doesn't work above 27km
[13:03] <eroomde> that answers that one then
[13:04] <Upu> allegedly they were going to release one with a firmware that does work above 27km
[13:04] <Upu> they sent me the prototype which I got up to 38km before sinking it in the sea
[13:04] <Upu> however they don't seem to have released it and asked me to amend the wiki to this effect
[13:04] <LeoBodnar> Hear Arduino -> close webpage
[13:04] <Upu> here : http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:adafruitugps
[13:04] <LeoBodnar> Hehe
[13:04] <Upu> tl;dr buy a ublox
[13:05] <G0TDJ_Steve> Whats wrong with Arduno LeoBodnar ?
[13:05] <Jonathan_G4KLX> eroomde: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~mackay/itila/book.html
[13:05] <Steve_2E0VET> thanks all
[13:05] <eroomde> bingo
[13:05] <LeoBodnar> Nothing, I have allergy
[13:05] <eroomde> like i say, best textbook i own, probably
[13:05] <G0TDJ_Steve> LOL LeoBodnar
[13:05] <Upu> I have love hate with Arduino
[13:05] <eroomde> just hate for me
[13:06] <eroomde> it causes more problems than it solves i think
[13:06] <Upu> if they made them all 3.3V I'd probably like it more
[13:06] <eroomde> especially in terms of the questions on this channel
[13:06] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, that would be good Tony but they're still evolving
[13:06] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I can do direct interfacing to a 4800 Bd GMSK board on an Arduino in real-time, very easy.
[13:07] <LeoBodnar> I don't understand why Cortex-M3 based Arduino was such a flop. But it probably deserved it
[13:08] <LeoBodnar> Real-time = more than one task running on schedule
[13:09] <G0TDJ_Steve> Quite a price hike considering the AVR versions LeoBodnar
[13:09] <Jonathan_G4KLX> No real-time doesn't mean that. It means that the required task runs in a bounded time.
[13:09] <LeoBodnar> Beautiful spec though, including HS USB
[13:10] <eroomde> my basic problem with arduino (while fully accepting the benefits) is that it wraps microcontrollers up in such black-box libraries that it can stop a new user learning a mental model that i think is very helpful for using microcontrollers in any kind of nontrivial way
[13:11] <G0TDJ_Steve> I do agree with you eroomde for lazy users particularly but using Arduino led me into understanding and using AVRs solo
[13:11] <LeoBodnar> It's trying to protect users from everything that makes MCU great. Like deterministic instruction timing for a start
[13:12] <Lunar_LanderU> yeah, I still wonder why code sometimes works
[13:12] <Lunar_LanderU> then it doesn't
[13:12] <eroomde> yep, for good autodidatcs it's no problem
[13:13] <Lunar_LanderU> then you copy-paste the same segment from the example
[13:13] <Lunar_LanderU> i.e. the code did not change one thing
[13:13] <Lunar_LanderU> and suddenly the system works again
[13:14] <Upu> I guess it depends on who you are and how far you want to take it
[13:14] <Upu> I consider all my designs "based on Arduino" but really they aren't any more I just use the Arduino IDE to program them
[13:15] <Upu> but agree with comments about the libraries
[13:15] <eroomde> but my experience in this channel over about 6-7 years now is that the chat has mainly gone from high altitude science to just basically programming 101 stuff. how do i send a byte. how do a parse. what is a voltage divider. can you please just give me some pre-written code. the pre-written code doesn't work when i copy and paste it into the window. it's just changed people's expectations of what it takes to do this properly, i think.
[13:15] <LeoBodnar> Would HMRC be OK if I go on a "business trip" to Mediterranean for solar panels equipment testing?
[13:15] <Upu> Well Leo
[13:16] <Upu> I know someone who returned from a business trip to Oz on the QEII as part of his 50th wedding anniversary and claimed the tax back on the £20k ticket
[13:16] <Jonathan_G4KLX> eroomde: It's the same everywhere.
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[13:16] <eroomde> i have zero issue helping, and everyone has to start somewhere. no beef with that. it's just the self-study vs knee-jerk-ask-for-help ratio that seems to have changed
[13:16] <G0TDJ_Steve> eroomde: I don't think that's confined to HAB the whole social culture now is quick-fix
[13:17] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: how do i turn a n*1 vector into a n*n matrix with the vector elements along the diagonal in matlab?
[13:17] <eroomde> and it's partly that is the arduino gives an error the cause is a complete mystery that doesn't help. no debugging, no exposure to what's happening with the register's underneath.
[13:17] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: i'm not sure about matlab sorry.
[13:17] <Laurenceb_> oh shit
[13:17] <LeoBodnar> Instructables ftw
[13:17] <Laurenceb_> "knee-jerk-ask-for-help ratio"
[13:17] <eroomde> could do it in a loop but i'm not sure if there's a nice way
[13:17] <Laurenceb_> soory eroomde
[13:17] <Laurenceb_> im guilty
[13:17] <eroomde> lol, you're ok Laurenceb_
[13:18] <eroomde> matrix = zeros(len(vecotr, len(vector)), for x in len(vector) // matrix[x][x] = vector[x]
[13:19] <eroomde> if you'll pardon the pseudocode
[13:19] <Laurenceb_> lolz
[13:19] <Jonathan_G4KLX> What I do on my Arduibo (a Mega 2560) is send debugging statements to Serial 1 which has a TTL to USB converter on. So a secondary data path, but I agree that debugging Arduino code is fun. However you just go back to first principles.
[13:19] <Laurenceb_> i could do that
[13:19] <Laurenceb_> but its uses a loop
[13:19] <Laurenceb_> so slooowwww
[13:19] <eroomde> yes indeed
[13:19] <eroomde> no idea about a nice matlab syntax shorthand
[13:19] <eroomde> sorry
[13:19] <eroomde> oh no wait!
[13:20] <Laurenceb_> http://www.mathworks.co.uk/help/matlab/ref/blkdiag.html
[13:20] <Laurenceb_> that i think
[13:20] <Jonathan_G4KLX> I know, but it's better than nothing.
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[13:21] <LeoBodnar> Can I send non-sequential position reports to habbub?
[13:22] <LeoBodnar> And repeating as well? Say short flightday synopsis at the end of the day?
[13:23] <LeoBodnar> I suppose I need to try it?
[13:25] <SpeedEvil> That would be a neat idea
[13:27] <Laurenceb_> arg
[13:27] <Laurenceb_> blkdiag takes list of arguments
[13:27] <Laurenceb_> im going to give up and use R at this rate
[13:27] <Lunar_LanderU> eroomde: I also agree with you, despite that I am one of those "what bit of code does what?" question people
[13:27] <Lunar_LanderU> but I am keen on the research side of the balloon flights
[13:28] <Laurenceb_> oh, diag works :P
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[13:40] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: Looks like in B-6 configuration 5-6 degrees temperature change in the wrong direction can cause total loss of buoyancy.
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[13:42] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: i think you can increase the free lift by a gram or so
[13:42] <Laurenceb_> and itd be more stable
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[13:42] <Laurenceb_> but if you reduced the mass a bit itd put less strain on the envelope
[13:42] <Laurenceb_> maybe AAA + "night mode" all the time
[13:43] <Laurenceb_> or add a baro and turn the gps off most of the time
[13:43] <LeoBodnar> I will do next time. There is probably a danger zone somewhere below 1g lift that is almost guaranteed to cause trouble
[13:43] <Laurenceb_> wake up if it changes pressure too much
[13:43] <Laurenceb_> what is the quiescent current like from you spmp?
[13:43] <Laurenceb_> *your
[13:44] <Laurenceb_> yeah id hazard a guess 2 gram or 2.5 gram free lift might work
[13:44] <Laurenceb_> i had good performance putting ublox5 into ram backup+ rtc
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> It's not designed for this sort of power saving, i.e. you need to power down TCXO and cut off silly UBLOX power too as it tends to have very restless sleep
[13:45] <Laurenceb_> if you can do that and wake every 10 minutes or so, current would be way down
[13:45] <Laurenceb_> i'd imagine ublox would be 2ma mean current waking like that every 10 minutes
[13:46] <Laurenceb_> but i havent read the max7 ref manual
[13:46] <Laurenceb_> this is from my ublox5 experiments
[13:46] <Laurenceb_> with rtc and ram ublox5 can aquire very quickly
[13:47] <LeoBodnar> Or just put a sunlight sensor there like real men did on 1968.
[13:47] <Laurenceb_> and its drawing microamps most of the time
[13:47] <LeoBodnar> What Arduino kids gonna do without log tables and slide rule?
[13:48] <Laurenceb_> heh
[13:48] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> We did see quite an increase in viewers for the stratodean talk
[13:48] <Laurenceb_> id hazard a guess you could get 100hours out of a AAA using such techniques
[13:49] <LeoBodnar> Ublox seem to make up for all the powersaving be eating very healthily when it wakes up. I guess if you power it down for less then 5-10 minutes there is no real difference from leaving it in periodic powersave mode
[13:49] <Steve_2E0VET> has anyone got any thoughts on "FunQube" v Cheap SDR dongle
[13:52] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: If you're choosing between them price-wise, an RTL-SDR and HABamp will probably outperform the Funcube Pro.
[13:53] <craag> Pro+ is probably slightly better than RTL-SDR + HABamp.
[13:53] <Steve_2E0VET> trying to compare functionality v price for both, basically i want funqube functionality at SDR price lol.
[13:53] <craag> The HABamp is sold by Hab Supplies, and is a 434MHz SAW filter and a 20+dB LNA.
[13:54] <Steve_2E0VET> frequency wise are they both the same or has the funqube got a lot more frequencies
[13:54] <craag> Which funcube are you looking at?
[13:54] <craag> The new funcube does HF.
[13:54] <Steve_2E0VET> just had an email from them, so i presume its the latest one
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[13:55] <craag> Pro+ does HF down to 150KHz, and is really quite sensitive down there!
[13:56] <Steve_2E0VET> i heard someone say they wouldnt use a SDR to track their own ballon so just wondered if it wasnt as reliable as the funqube
[13:56] <craag> Funcube dongle is also an SDR.
[13:57] <craag> It's not as practical to use on the move while in a cramped car as a real ham rig is.
[13:57] <craag> But performance-wise I've chased a couple of times with rtl-sdrs and they work.
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[13:58] <Steve_2E0VET> trying to get hold of a 70cms ssb rig is difficult at the right price
[13:59] <craag> Yes it is. So I either use the rtl-sdr (although I have a FCD Pro+ now), or invite one of my better equipped ham friends along.
[14:00] <Steve_2E0VET> to keep cost down i might get an SDR to start with, not sure. obviously its going to be my first launch and dont want to lose it lol
[14:00] <mfa298> the one benefit the rtl-sdr gives is the wider bandwidth so you can track several payloads at once (with the right software). With the funcube that doesn't always happen (only 192khz bandwidth for the pro+)
[14:01] <Steve_2E0VET> i think i will stick to tracking one at the moment. are there any SDR's that are worst than others
[14:01] <craag> With the amount of home receivers we have now, I don't think a slightly sub-par receiver in the chase car would cause a loss of the payload.
[14:03] <Steve_2E0VET> do any of the mainstream retailers sell the sdr's argos, pcworld etc etc
[14:03] <mfa298> the one benefit a real reciever gives for chasing your own payload is it's something you can easily take on foot to help DF the payload
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[14:03] <mfa298> ebay or cosycave seem to be the places people buy them from.
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[14:04] <Laurenceb_> cosycave screwed up their shipping for me
[14:04] <mfa298> the rtlsdr I bought is model SPC-0155 from ebay (usually shipped from china)
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[14:08] <Steve_2E0VET> so many choices, is an SDR the same as a DVB
[14:08] <mfa298> the rtl-sdr's are a particular DVB chipset that provides the required info
[14:09] <mfa298> so you need the rtl2832 shipset and usually the E4000 or R820T tuner
[14:14] <Steve_2E0VET> my heart says get the funqube my head says SDR... god im stressed lol
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[14:17] <mfa298> get both :)
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[14:24] <Steve_2E0VET> think i will buy this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DVB-T-USB-TV-RTL-SDR-FM-DAB-Radio-Tuner-Receiver-Stick-Realtek-RTL2832U-R820T-/121142302066?pt=UK_Computing_Video_Capture_TV_Tuner_Cards&hash=item1c34a4d572
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[14:26] <mfa298> note that it's an mcx antenna connector so you you need to buy/make a patch cable to connect up a better antenna. I just cut the antenna it came with off and put a bnc on the end (I had a suitable one in the box of connectors)
[14:29] <LeoBodnar> AMSAT folks can't keep mono audio level in control :)
[14:29] <Steve_2E0VET> does hab supplies sell the antennas
[14:29] <craag> LeoBodnar: Yeah they're working on it I think.
[14:30] <bertrik> Steve_2E0VET: for HAB-tracking we use an RTLSDR stick with a hab-amp (70 cm filter/amplifier), I don't think it's any good for HAB tracking without the habamp
[14:30] <Steve_2E0VET> bertie, where did you get the RTLSDR from?
[14:31] <craag> It'll work without the habamp, but will be 10x better with it.
[14:31] <Steve_2E0VET> will my AR 2m/70cms entenna work ok?
[14:31] <bertrik> I got mine from ebay/china, took a while to arrive
[14:31] <mfa298> I've used my rtl-sdr with a 2m dipole fairly happily without the habamp not as good as the FCD Pro+ or other real recievers. Habamp would help the rtl a lot though.
[14:31] <LeoBodnar> Audio level is great subject for statistical research
[14:32] <Steve_2E0VET> bertie, cannot wait that long i want to try a launch in the next 6-8 weeks
[14:32] <mfa298> Steve_2E0VET: as long as it's a vertical antenna it should work well.
[14:32] <craag> cosycave is generally the suggested place to get an rtl-sdr I think, and their delivery is quick.
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[14:35] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, this looks ok and comes with so239 https://www.cosycave.co.uk/product.php?id_product=297
[14:36] <craag> Looks very good to me. But please, don't use SO-239 at 434MHz.
[14:36] <Upu> if your budget stretches get a FCD
[14:38] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, why not?
[14:38] <mfa298> the only cable in that collection of adapters that's good is the mcx - sma. everything else seems to have a belling-lee in the middle
[14:39] <mfa298> SO-239 aka bannana plug with a shield - not really good for anything over 100MHz
[14:39] <Steve_2E0VET> Upu, i was going for the FCD due to bad press on SDR, then came on here and cheap sdr gets good reviews, so i'm really confused now
[14:40] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: It's a connector rated to 100Mhz, can cause high losses/reflection at UHf.
[14:40] <mfa298> sma, bnc or N are the best connectors for 70cms
[14:40] <Steve_2E0VET> mfa298, sorry i thought the PL-259 whent into so so-239
[14:40] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: If you have the budget for an FCDp+, go for it. It's a wonderful SDR.
[14:40] <Upu> well the original EZCAP dongles with E4000 are fine for testing
[14:41] <Upu> however I'd be iffy about using one in a real flight
[14:41] <mfa298> PL-259 and SO-239 are the matching plug and socket - nether are good for >100MHz
[14:41] <Upu> I got one of those R820T dongles and it was hopeless didn't work at all ended up throwing it away
[14:41] <Steve_2E0VET> Upu, thats what i heard before which put me off
[14:41] <mfa298> sorry I should have called it banana socket with shield rather than banana plug.
[14:42] <Upu> The FCD is amazing though
[14:42] <Upu> even the original one
[14:42] <Steve_2E0VET> ok think i will do the fcd, best get it delivered to work, away from the wifes eyes
[14:42] <gonzo_mob> pl259 is the rf equiv of a phono plug
[14:42] <Upu> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FUNcube-Dongle-Pro-64-MHz-to-1700-MHz-SDR-Receiver-Scanner-/281137595672?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_SpecialistRadioEquipment_SM&hash=item41751b4518
[14:43] <Steve_2E0VET> are they sma on the fcd
[14:44] <Upu> yes
[14:44] <Upu> ping LeoBodnar
[14:45] <Steve_2E0VET> would it work ok either on my triband home antenna (6/2/70) and my commercial antenna (not cheap) 2/70 on the vehicle
[14:45] <Upu> yes
[14:45] <LeoBodnar> Upu: ?
[14:45] <Upu> hey LeoBodnar
[14:46] <Upu> question that "subcode" you transmit when using DomEX16
[14:46] <Upu> is it documented anywhere ?
[14:46] <LeoBodnar> Yes, it just secondary codeset. Use it like you would standard one.
[14:47] <Upu> secvar ?
[14:47] <Upu> when you transmit that data ?
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[14:50] <LeoBodnar> Yes, insert them in between or when idling
[14:51] <Upu> I can see the secondary alphabet
[14:51] <Upu> just not sure how to specify it
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[14:53] <LeoBodnar> NiCd batteries on the satellite?
[14:55] <craag> LeoBodnar: Yeah.. just massively overspecced to mitigate low-temp performance loss I guess?
[14:57] <LeoBodnar> either give them +256 offset or use separate table? Upu
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[14:57] <Upu> +128 ?
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[14:59] <Steve_2E0VET> Does anyone know of a good burst predictor
[15:00] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: For a given balloon, lift, etc: habhub.org/calc/
[15:00] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, cheers
[15:00] <chrisstubbs2> Hi all, having a bit of a strange problem with cheapo for tomorows flight. Habitat is not using the most recent flight doc to parse the data
[15:00] <chrisstubbs2> Any ideas?
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[15:01] <craag> chrisstubbs2: Not using CHEAPO4?
[15:02] <chrisstubbs2> The most recent and correct flight doc is (c6cb1e25e7f94f5401d064f818a51d8a)
[15:03] <chrisstubbs2> parser logtail says its trying to use b4dda0ee214b04589cb73aa9086b6597
[15:03] <craag> Yeah I saw that, weird!
[15:03] <LeoBodnar> It' just a question of storing data internally. If you want to stick "A" into main window you fetch varicodes 3,9 and in the bottom bar: 4,11,9 http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/MFSK/DominoEX%20Varicode%20Table.pdf
[15:03] <chrisstubbs2> Sorry that should read payload config doc^^
[15:03] <LeoBodnar> I use two separate tables.
[15:03] <chrisstubbs2> tomorows FLIGHT DOC has the correct and latest one listed too
[15:03] <Upu> yeah looking at that
[15:04] <craag> chrisstubbs2: hmm
[15:04] <chrisstubbs2> also, when i search for cheapo on genpayload i dont even see the id habitat is trying to use
[15:04] <LeoBodnar> I think 128+ codes are broken in dl-fldigi. TRied to use ºC and it did not work
[15:05] <Upu> Yeah got it thanks Leo
[15:05] <Upu> I just split my table into two
[15:06] <craag> chrisstubbs2: Me neither.. it doesn't seem to exist.
[15:06] <chrisstubbs2> craag do you think its worth me just creating a new payload config dog?
[15:06] <chrisstubbs2> and updating the one on the flight doc?
[15:07] <craag> chrisstubbs2: Yep,
[15:07] <craag> Give it a go
[15:08] <craag> I can't see why what it's doing
[15:08] <chrisstubbs2> (y) bugs
[15:09] <chrisstubbs2> will give it a go, cheers. can you replace the id in our flight doc when its done craag?
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[15:10] <LeoBodnar> Cool Upu
[15:10] <LeoBodnar> How many DAC steps fit between two tones?
[15:11] <craag> chrisstubbs2: I can't, not part of the habhub team.
[15:11] <chrisstubbs2> ok will join habhub cheers
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[15:12] <Upu> about 12
[15:12] <Upu> err sorry
[15:12] <Upu> 12 dac steps = 1hz
[15:12] <Upu> so lots
[15:13] <Upu> each tone is separated by 187
[15:13] <LeoBodnar> Oh, good
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[15:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> Guys, not sure if you'll be interested in this but I saw it on BBC Click this morning: http://www.bigspaceballoon.co.uk/index.php
[15:27] Action: fsphil sighs at the name
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[15:28] <craag> Well they're certainly ambitious!
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[15:29] <fsphil> it's definitly very big
[15:29] <fsphil> that part of the name cannot be argued with
[15:29] <fsphil> and it's also definitly a balloon
[15:29] <craag> Oh good god, they're hoping for quite a flight path.
[15:29] <G0TDJ_Steve> Will it get to space though
[15:29] <craag> no
[15:30] <craag> 40km != space
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[15:30] <fsphil> their diagram is very misleading
[15:30] <fsphil> "Edge of Space..."
[15:30] <fsphil> and their balloon above it
[15:31] <craag> oh Andras
[15:32] <craag> and Steve Johnston
[15:32] <craag> wow ok
[15:32] <G0TDJ_Steve> ???
[15:32] <craag> They're both Soton Uni research staff
[15:32] <fsphil> they should know better then
[15:33] <Upu> Project Sharp ?
[15:33] <craag> Hmm, I don't think they'll have been tasked with the website
[15:33] <craag> no
[15:33] <craag> ASTRA
[15:33] <craag> ie Matt's stuff with balloon-neck and 3d printed payloads
[15:34] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/Dhd8xc8.jpg
[15:34] <craag> :)
[15:34] <G0TDJ_Steve> Nice Tony
[15:35] <Upu> cheers for help fsphil and Leo :)
[15:35] <Steve_2E0VET> so many posts i cannot find what i was looking for
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[15:35] <Steve_2E0VET> can anyone recommend a gps tracker
[15:36] <Upu> one you make yourself
[15:36] <Upu> and in a month a habduino
[15:36] <Steve_2E0VET> Upu, lol, i would if i knew where to start
[15:36] <LeoBodnar> G0TDJ_Steve: stuff that starts with 3D renders usually doesn't end up well
[15:36] <G0TDJ_Steve> Upu: Just out of interest, how come that test didn't show up on the Tracker?
[15:36] <G0TDJ_Steve> OK Leo... We'll see what happens
[15:37] <Upu> no location information or payload doc
[15:37] <Upu> Steve_2E0VET google NTX2 + Arduino
[15:37] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh right. Yeah, engage brain Steve.....
[15:37] <Upu> thats how to start
[15:37] <fsphil> oh the bot worked
[15:38] <LeoBodnar> Nice! :)
[15:38] <Steve_2E0VET> gonna go with the arduino and NTX2 anyway, just reading the habduino project - so many websites not enough hours in the day
[15:38] <LeoBodnar> Nice Upu ! :)
[15:39] <Upu> I know Steve
[15:39] <fsphil> the ntx2 is a lovely little radio
[15:39] <Upu> take your time
[15:39] <fsphil> a simple change in voltage at the right time, and you've got rtty
[15:39] <Steve_2E0VET> when i said gps tracker i meant one that i could text and get its location, incase it lands somehere out of range of the FCD
[15:40] <fsphil> it's more likely to land outside the range of GSM :)
[15:41] <fsphil> but yes a GSM backup can be good to have
[15:41] <Upu> as a backup fine
[15:41] <Steve_2E0VET> i hope not i want it back!!!
[15:41] <Upu> but I've seen more launches where those haven't worked
[15:41] <Upu> than ones where they have
[15:41] <fsphil> GSM coverage in the UK, or any country really, is patchy
[15:41] <LeoBodnar> I have design one in off the bat and have never launched one in the end :)
[15:41] <Upu> if you rely on a GSM tracker I'd put your odds of recovery @ 50%
[15:41] <fsphil> especially in the country side, which is annoyingly where you ideally want to land
[15:42] <Upu> based on previous launches
[15:42] <fsphil> you really don't want to land in a built up area :)
[15:42] <LeoBodnar> 80% of PCB area and 90% of power consumption
[15:42] <Steve_2E0VET> surely most areas have gsm coverage these days.
[15:42] <Steve_2E0VET> i would have thought its very difficult to predict where it will land
[15:43] <Steve_2E0VET> as you can see ui'm a NOOB to this
[15:43] <G0TDJ_Steve> Steve_2E0VET: There's a lot of us Noobs about!
[15:43] <LeoBodnar> There are GPS/GSM trackers on eBay for less than £30
[15:43] <craag> GSM coverage at elbow height, sure. But GSM coverage with the tracker lying on the ground, not so much.
[15:44] <Steve_2E0VET> oh ok, i learnt something else today lol
[15:44] <fsphil> the predictor can give you a rought idea of where it's doing
[15:44] <fsphil> rough*
[15:44] <fsphil> if it looks like it might go near a city or the sea for example
[15:45] <LeoBodnar> raft idea more like it
[15:45] <Steve_2E0VET> fsphil, do you have any links to the better predictors
[15:45] <fsphil> Steve_2E0VET: http://predict.habhub.org/
[15:45] <fsphil> this is about as good as it gets
[15:45] <Steve_2E0VET> ta
[15:45] <fsphil> predictions a few days in advance will usually be fairly good
[15:45] <fsphil> futher into the future and it gets more inaccurate
[15:47] <mclane> upu: what is the resolution of your dac on the lmt2 for dominoex?
[15:49] <Upu> hey mclane
[15:49] <Upu> its a 16 bit DAC
[15:49] <Upu> 1hz of shift = 12 dac units
[15:49] <number10> one of the other problems with gsm tracker Steve_2E0VET - is that the GPS in those do not work at high altitudedes - some of them recover after a while (hour) when back down
[15:49] <Upu> does RTTY with selectable shift with ease
[15:50] <Steve_2E0VET> is there anwhere where CAA (or whoever) wont let you launch - like your back garden
[15:50] <LeoBodnar> You can do NFM voice jingles with that
[15:50] <Upu> I want to do an apex twin style waterfall self portrait :)
[15:51] <fsphil> Steve_2E0VET: back gardens are ok, unless you live next to heathrow
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[15:51] <fsphil> or other airport
[15:51] <LeoBodnar> Get the power modulation right and it will be full colour too
[15:51] <Steve_2E0VET> or hits your house
[15:51] <Upu> lol
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[15:52] <Steve_2E0VET> i presume they dont just go veritcal especially witha bit of wind
[15:52] <fsphil> no
[15:52] <fsphil> sometimes nearly horizontally
[15:52] <fsphil> tip: don't launch in a storm
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[15:52] <fsphil> or when snowing
[15:52] <fsphil> or a blizzard
[15:52] <LeoBodnar> Why not fsphil ?
[15:52] <fsphil> the balloons becomes a kite
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> Great!
[15:53] <fsphil> I launched one at Upu during a snow storm
[15:53] <fsphil> was never seen again :)
[15:54] <LeoBodnar> hehe
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[15:54] <Steve_2E0VET> is there a site that shows altitudes of specific places or a calculator
[15:55] <mclane> upu: what dac do you use?
[15:55] <Upu> LTC2606
[15:55] <craag> You can probably ignore ground altitude.
[15:56] <mattbrejza> btw craag tjat spaceballoon thing might be a good source of funding for susf, bearing in mind they dont appear to have anyone with decent electronics/comms background (ASTRA were using gsm before me/ben came along)
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[15:58] <Steve_2E0VET> 1st prediction lands in a housing esate
[16:00] <Steve_2E0VET> 2nd prediction burst over LBA
[16:03] <Steve_2E0VET> how acurate is the predictor, for example if it predicts flight as due north, what chance is there of it going due south
[16:04] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: It uses the Global Forecast system, so there's a lot of international money that goes into making sure the data is correct!
[16:04] <x-f> depends on how far in the future is the prediction
[16:05] <LeoBodnar> It's between good and pretty good.
[16:05] <craag> If you run a prediction just before launch, I'd say the probabability would be around 2 or 3% of it being *that* wrong.
[16:05] <Steve_2E0VET> ok thanks, cos might launch near the coast
[16:05] <LeoBodnar> The predictor, not the chance o fit going in the opposite direction
[16:06] <craag> The worst error we've ever had was one of Dave's flights when it under-estimated the wind by about 3x.
[16:07] <mfa298> running a few predictions for just before /after the launch time should give an indication of how winds are changing
[16:07] <craag> But that was due to the MET office not launching any MET ballloons that day, and they actually apologised for the data I think (as aircraft use it to optimise fuel usage).
[16:08] <Steve_2E0VET> i wonder if there are many people who will recieve the transmission if i launch in the darkest depths of Wales
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[16:08] <cyclops> hello!
[16:08] <craag> If it's a Latex balloon, the last welsh one was received nr. calais
[16:08] <Steve_2E0VET> lol
[16:09] <craag> At high altitudes, range really isn't an issue.
[16:09] <Steve_2E0VET> thats my other problem, want to keep the cost down and dont know which ballon to go for
[16:09] <Steve_2E0VET> cyclops, hello
[16:09] <craag> You need to size up your payload first, then play with the calculator.
[16:09] <Steve_2E0VET> has it been known for people to find them and send them back to you
[16:10] <Steve_2E0VET> yeah i cannot see getting my payload under 200g
[16:10] <craag> Yes, maybe 30% of ones that are lost at a guess.
[16:10] <craag> brb call
[16:10] <eroomde> mel smith has died
[16:10] <eroomde> that's a bit sad
[16:11] <eroomde> he did seem both big but also had the air of a school teacher constantly at the point of bursting into rage, when he was interviewed
[16:11] <eroomde> which can't have helped
[16:14] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: 200g for a latex payload is really quite light!
[16:14] <craag> (ie with camera)
[16:14] <cyclops> Guys
[16:14] <craag> Most are 800g+
[16:14] <cyclops> Mi arduino just arrived, powering it on fires the "blink"
[16:15] <cyclops> Is this normal isnt it?
[16:15] <G0TDJ_Steve> cyclops: Thats what it's supposed to do
[16:15] <craag> But if you're testing your tracker on a foil, that'll have to be <=60g.
[16:15] <cyclops> Nice
[16:15] <G0TDJ_Steve> Loaded with the blink demo by default
[16:15] <cyclops> Im testing with the delays
[16:15] <G0TDJ_Steve> Cool
[16:15] <cyclops> and the green TX and RX leds give Load info?
[16:16] <eroomde> yep
[16:16] <eroomde> just tells you whdn there's activity on them
[16:16] <cyclops> Great
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[16:16] <eroomde> it's a good sanity check when you're flashing code onto them
[16:16] <eroomde> if you get any erros
[16:16] <cyclops> BTW the reset button erases everithing or something?
[16:16] <G0TDJ_Steve> No, just restarts
[16:17] <eroomde> cyclops: it just resets
[16:17] <cyclops> Nice
[16:17] <eroomde> so basically the way a microcontroller works is there's just a long list of instructions
[16:17] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, i was looking at the Hwoyee 100 but the prediction software or burst calculator doesnt list it
[16:17] <Steve_2E0VET> so may have to go with the 200
[16:17] <mattbrejza> would be arkward if it wiped the program
[16:17] <eroomde> and there's a special register isnide called the instruction counter
[16:17] <G0TDJ_Steve> cyclops: Which one is it?
[16:17] <eroomde> which knws what instruction you're on and by default goes to the next one
[16:17] <cyclops> UNo
[16:17] <LeoBodnar> plumbing new lows eroomde :)
[16:18] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good oh
[16:18] <eroomde> reset makes that instruction counter point to instruction 0
[16:18] <cyclops> So it stats again
[16:18] <eroomde> yep
[16:18] <cyclops> *starts
[16:18] <cyclops> Whoa thanks for the explanation
[16:18] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: 200g payload with a 100g would work. To use the calculator manually set the burst diameter to 2m and cut 100g off the payload weight.
[16:18] <cyclops> Ill write it down
[16:19] <eroomde> usually the instruction counter increases by 1 (you don;t need to know any of this to use arduinos btw, i just think it's interesting)
[16:19] <cyclops> I t is
[16:19] <eroomde> sometimes though if you have a 'branch' (if this then do that, otherwise do the other) that might involve adding some other number to the instruction counter
[16:19] <eroomde> depending on the answer to the 'ig' question, that tells it which bit of code to execute
[16:20] <LeoBodnar> Snakes and ladders :)
[16:20] <cyclops> hum
[16:20] <Laurenceb_> wtf
[16:20] <Laurenceb_> i stuck alu foil to my blinds to keep it cool
[16:21] <cyclops> I should have started learning C this summer
[16:21] <Laurenceb_> now my wheelbarrow has been melted
[16:21] <cyclops> But ive had no time :/
[16:21] <eroomde> sometimes you might have an 'interrupt', say an external pin goes high, and you have a specific bit of code stored somewhere that you want to fire when the pin goes high, the interrupt handler will save the current instruction counter number, load in the location of the special bit of code you want to execute, let that bit of code run, then load the instruction counter back with where you were before
[16:21] <craag> haha Laurenceb_
[16:21] <eroomde> so it can carry on from there
[16:21] <cyclops> awsome
[16:21] <cyclops> so in case X fails it fires C code that for example corrects X
[16:21] <cyclops> and then it continues
[16:21] <eroomde> so reset is just a special kind of 'interrupt'
[16:22] <eroomde> yes exactly
[16:22] <cyclops> Thanks for the explanation!
[16:22] <eroomde> np
[16:22] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, simple as that
[16:24] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: It's a latex balloon like the others, so there's still a lot of clever voodoo, but it'll automatically work that out from the burst diameter.
[16:24] <cyclops> and is there any difference if i use the serial port /dev/cu.usbmodem1421
[16:25] <cyclops> or /dev/tty.usb...
[16:25] <cyclops> as both work
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[16:26] <eroomde> cyclops: probably not if they both work. it'll jsut be your operating system trying to give a name to the thing you plugged in
[16:27] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, any advice on who to get parachutes off of
[16:27] <cyclops> probably
[16:27] <cyclops> So my only task left is the Tracker
[16:27] <cyclops> Radio and gps
[16:27] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Random Aerospace
[16:28] <craag> (Same place as the balloons)
[16:28] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, random engineering?
[16:28] <craag> yep, random solutions, etc.. same place.
[16:29] <cyclops> BTW eroomde is the Software the mot complicated tracker part?
[16:30] <craag> mattbrejza: Sorry jsut saw your message. Hmm good point!
[16:30] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, 58m/sec is a little high for the decent isnt it
[16:30] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: What calc are you using?
[16:31] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, didnt realise the weight was KG's and I put 200 in lol
[16:31] <mattbrejza> craag: it depends on whether they actually get going though
[16:31] <craag> I thought that was a bit off!
[16:31] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, 3.7 thats a bit better
[16:31] <craag> mattbrejza: Yep, does seem a little expensive in all! Would overlap with the long-duration tracker stuff I'm looking at though.
[16:32] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Nice and slow :)
[16:32] <mattbrejza> tbh iridium
[16:33] <craag> I know.. gotta have a fun tracker on it for the first few hours though.. :)
[16:33] <mattbrejza> yea iridium just works and is kinda boring
[16:35] <craag> It'd be nice to have realtime tracking/telemetry for the ascent and entering float.
[16:35] <mattbrejza> tbh that space [sic] balloon could have HF beacons
[16:35] <cyclops> the rtty radius is about?
[16:36] <craag> cyclops: 0 degrees.
[16:36] <cyclops> I mean if the balloon is in X point
[16:36] <cyclops> How far from it can i be to receive the signal
[16:36] <craag> mattbrejza: True..
[16:36] <cyclops> As when chasing it
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> cyclops: several hundred kilometers at high altitude.
[16:37] <craag> cyclops: It's totally dependent on having line-of-sight to the balloon.
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> cyclops: as the balloon drops, down to a few kilometers, and on the ground, it can be tens or hundreds of meters.
[16:37] <cyclops> and the antennas on the tracker are omnidirectional aren't they?
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> that.
[16:37] <craag> So limited by hills and the curvature of the earth.
[16:37] <craag> Mostly the latter once it's above 1km altitude.
[16:37] <cyclops> so high good reception and the car can be far
[16:38] <cyclops> When it fallas better be near it
[16:38] <craag> car can be 500km away :)
[16:38] <craag> yep
[16:38] <Steve_2E0VET> whats the best thing to have in the payload to find the payload once on the ground?
[16:38] <cyclops> And the balloon with omnidirectional antenna
[16:38] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Most people have just gone with reflective tape and bubblegum-pink payloads
[16:38] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, lol
[16:38] <cyclops> Ill do that
[16:38] <craag> cyclops: 1/4wave vertical antenna, yep omni
[16:39] <cyclops> :P
[16:39] <cyclops> And the car the same perfect
[16:39] <craag> cyclops: Yep.
[16:39] <cyclops> craag the hardest thing of building a tracker is?
[16:39] <cyclops> *well part of the process
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[16:40] <craag> cyclops: I've got a programming background, so the hardest bit for me was trying to insulate it (I was restricted to 5g for the tracker container)
[16:40] <cyclops> I have no programming skills
[16:40] <craag> On the programming side, probably getting data from the GPS and into the RTTY, but there's plenty of guides on the wiki.
[16:41] <cyclops> And you that know code
[16:41] <cyclops> How difficult would be to add a pressure sensor and temp sensor
[16:41] <craag> I was trying to do it without looking at the wiki, and also doing some different stuff with the ublox (10hz refresh rate).
[16:42] <craag> Very easy.
[16:42] <cyclops> and also log all the data going to the rtty to a local Sd card on the payload
[16:42] <craag> Especially if they are jsut analog sensors.
[16:42] <craag> Yep should also be easy, just google 'arduino sd card code'
[16:42] <cyclops> did you used any custom made PCB?
[16:42] <cyclops> or did you wired it u
[16:42] <cyclops> *up
[16:43] <craag> Give yourself plenty of time to play with it, being patient and trying different ways is far more satisfying in the long run.
[16:43] <craag> First time I wired it up
[16:43] <cyclops> well I would
[16:43] <craag> See bottom of https://www.thecraag.com/CRAAG1
[16:43] <cyclops> But I have only about 20 days left to launch maybe a little more
[16:44] <cyclops> arduino Uno can be directly powered with batteries?
[16:44] <Steve_2E0VET> using the arduino/NTX2/ublox & BMP085, is it possible to transmitt Height/speed/Altitude & GPS coordinates via RF
[16:44] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Absolutely, that's what it's supposed to do!
[16:45] <craag> cyclops: Don't know offhand, you need to look at the voltages.
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[16:46] <cyclops> now im doubting if go with Upu 's habduino or make my own tracker
[16:46] <cyclops> As I have 14days for components to come and build and test it
[16:46] <craag> cyclops: I'd suggest making your own, it's far more satisfying.
[16:46] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, my only concern is finding the ballon, if i get somewhere near it then the GPS coordinates will be reliable, but if i am not in RF range, i will only have the last ones. and i dont suppose in deepest darkest wales there is going to be anyone monitoring
[16:47] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: The key there is to be around the landing site when it comes down.
[16:47] <craag> cyclops: Both?
[16:47] <cyclops> Too expensive
[16:47] <craag> fair enough
[16:47] <cyclops> ive by far sment way more I wanted to
[16:47] <cyclops> *spent
[16:48] <cyclops> my goal was 300¬ all
[16:48] <cyclops> and it will be 600¬ all
[16:48] <cyclops> considering habduino costs 100¬
[16:48] <craag> I really prefer people to build their own trackers, the experience is great.
[16:49] <craag> But with your limited timeframe, and this being your first ever tracking as well
[16:49] <cyclops> yeah but I'm afraid of knowing no programming
[16:49] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, like your site - whats a pico payload
[16:49] <craag> I'd suggest go for the habduino
[16:49] <cyclops> in the future i hope i can build my own
[16:49] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: If the payload + balloon is under 2m across (ie fits in a 2m sphere), you don't need a NOTAM)
[16:50] <craag> cyclops: THat's what I hoped you'd say :)
[16:50] <cyclops> :D
[16:50] <craag> GO for the habduino, then you have time to practise tracking, get someone to put it in the back of their car and go to where it's dropping out on your rx, then play with dl-fldigi to try to receive it.
[16:50] <cyclops> so lets see if upu has its tracker ready
[16:51] <cyclops> soon
[16:51] <cyclops> Yeah I received my Funcube days ago and cant wait to test it
[16:52] <cyclops> I dont even have the antenna but it received some local radio station
[16:52] <cyclops> With a lot of noise but you could hear the music
[16:52] <craag> With no antenna, that's impressive!
[16:52] <craag> It will improve 100x with jsut a bit of wire
[16:52] <cyclops> i tought it wouldnt receive anything
[16:53] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, would that apply to a Hwoyee 100 ?
[16:53] <Laurenceb_> ping eroomde
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[16:53] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Only if your payload fits in or alongside the balloon neck (which has been done by a couple of people).
[16:53] <craag> But it will be too unstable for photos
[16:53] <cyclops> and much cheaper, as a good yaesu goes 600+¬
[16:53] <craag> Long string = more stable.
[16:54] <craag> cyclops: Just have a bit of practice with it, so pull the dongle out while you are receiving and learn what you have to do to get it working again (very useful, trust me!)
[16:55] <cyclops> Ill do!
[16:55] <craag> Preparing for stuff going wrong makes it so much easier *if* it does.
[16:55] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, what did you produce your site with, is it wordpress
[16:55] <cyclops> so a long string makes the payload more stable
[16:55] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Nope, mediawiki (the software behind wikipedia)
[16:56] <craag> You're the 3rd person who's asked me that today..
[16:56] <cyclops> I plan on doing both photos and video so that will help!
[16:56] <craag> cyclops: Yeah, Dave normally uses about 20m or so I think.
[16:56] <cyclops> 20 meters?
[16:56] <craag> I think so.
[16:56] <craag> Sounds about right.
[16:56] <cyclops> isnt it too much?
[16:56] <craag> I believe there's a wiki article on it...
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[16:57] <fsphil> I'm quite sure the ukhas wiki has the answer to immortality, just nobody can find it
[16:57] <cyclops> how much does 4 Energizer lithium cost in UK?
[16:58] <craag> Yep can't find it :)
[16:58] <craag> *:(
[16:58] <fsphil> I should keep my passwords on it
[16:58] <craag> haha
[16:58] <craag> but what if you forgot them?
[16:58] <fsphil> cyclops: varies, I've seen them for £5/pack of four once at tesco
[16:58] <cyclops> here at spain
[16:58] <cyclops> 15-20¬ 4
[16:59] <fsphil> that's a more normal price
[16:59] <Steve_2E0VET> how do you work out out much hellium to put in a ballon - dont want it to go "POP" before it lifts off
[16:59] <fsphil> but you can probably find them cheaper if you search around a bit
[16:59] <cyclops> Steve
[16:59] <cyclops> there are tables
[16:59] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: With the calculator page
[16:59] <fsphil> Steve_2E0VET: http://habhub.org/calc/
[16:59] <fsphil> but
[16:59] <craag> Doesn't Random solutions sell batteries?
[16:59] <cyclops> fsphil 7pounds in ebay :D
[16:59] <Steve_2E0VET> fsphil, i should know that link by now
[16:59] <fsphil> those balloons are big. it would take a *LOT* of helium to burst them
[16:59] <fsphil> on the ground*
[17:00] <fsphil> they can inflate to about 10 or 15m diameter
[17:00] <craag> He's using a 100g, but yes, still a lot.
[17:00] <fsphil> ah 100g
[17:00] <fsphil> yes they can inflate to just over 2m
[17:00] <fsphil> maybe a bit more
[17:00] <cyclops> the recommended ascent rate is about...?
[17:00] <fsphil> 5m/s is typical
[17:01] <fsphil> same for descent
[17:01] <Steve_2E0VET> fsphil, thats the ballon burst calculator ?? is that correct. I am trying to find out how much i should put in a 100g ballon
[17:01] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: What's your payload weight?
[17:01] <cyclops> it says that
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[17:01] <fsphil> Steve_2E0VET: put in some values, and it will tell you the nick lift
[17:01] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, about 200g
[17:01] <cyclops> just complete the fields
[17:01] <fsphil> neck lift*
[17:02] <fsphil> it's much easier to measure the neck lift than it is volume of gas
[17:02] Action: fsphil waits for eroomde to correct him
[17:02] <Steve_2E0VET> fsphil, neck lift you have lost me now i am pretty new here
[17:02] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: For 200g payload at 5m/s ascent, you'll get burst at apprx 14000m
[17:02] <fsphil> but the calculator also prints the volume at the bottom right
[17:02] <eroomde> i agree it's simpler
[17:02] <eroomde> not sure it's easier :)
[17:02] <fsphil> Steve_2E0VET: sorry. neck lift is how much weight the balloon can hold up, but not rise or drop
[17:02] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, under "Ballon Cd"
[17:02] <Willdude123> http://pastie.org/8159005 I have turned off all sentences, but the UBX is txing all of them still.
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[17:03] <fsphil> Steve_2E0VET: if the neck lift is 2kg, and you hang a 2kg weight from it -- it will float
[17:03] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Leave that, it's proportional to the volume.
[17:03] <craag> *multiplied by the volume
[17:03] <fsphil> you're getting a lot of good info today :)
[17:03] Action: craag really needs to patch /calc/ for 100g hwoyees
[17:04] <fsphil> yes :)
[17:04] <craag> But my previous pull request has not been pulled to the site yet :(
[17:04] <craag> 'ballon' -> 'balloon' :P
[17:04] <Steve_2E0VET> fsphil, so to make a 2kg neck lift rise, you need 2kg+ hellium yes/probably not lol
[17:05] <fsphil> Steve_2E0VET: yes
[17:05] <fsphil> well no
[17:05] <Willdude123> What could be the problem?
[17:05] <fsphil> if your neck lift is 2kg.. it will only rise if your payload is less than 2kg
[17:05] <fsphil> if it's more than 2kg it will fall
[17:06] <fsphil> the calculator will work out what neck lift you need for your particular payload weight + target ascent rate
[17:06] <fsphil> I normally fill a bottle of water so it's the same weight as the neck lift, and attach it to the balloon while filling it
[17:07] <Steve_2E0VET> fsphil, ok so i have a neck lift of 712g, do I need to work out how much hellium i need or is it the result that is luisted as "volume"
[17:07] <fsphil> once it has neutral buoyancy then it's got the right amount of gas
[17:07] <Steve_2E0VET> I NEED A SMOKE!!
[17:07] <fsphil> you use the volume amount when buying the cylinder of gas
[17:08] <fsphil> the supplier will be able to tell you how much is in each cylinder
[17:08] <cyclops> oh god I want my Habduino to start testing :P
[17:09] <cyclops> Im so impatient
[17:09] <eroomde> Steve_2E0VET: so, you have a balloon. let's say it's a 1000g balloon
[17:09] <Steve_2E0VET> fsphil, is it as simple as fill the ballon and when it starts to lift the payload off the ground there is enough in it
[17:09] <eroomde> you have a payload, let's say it weighs 1000g too
[17:09] <eroomde> so the total mass of all the shit that needs to go up is 2kg
[17:10] <eroomde> 1000g + 1000g
[17:10] <eroomde> now, in order to go up, there needs to be a force acting on it upwards
[17:10] <eroomde> that force we call bouyancy, and we get it from the helium
[17:10] <Steve_2E0VET> eroomde, i am with you so far lol
[17:11] <eroomde> 1m^3 of helium at sea level produces about 1kg of lift
[17:11] <eroomde> 2m^3 gives you 2kg of lift
[17:11] <eroomde> etc
[17:11] <eroomde> the speed you ascent depends on how much lift.boyancy you have
[17:11] <eroomde> we usually pitch for like 4-5m/s ascent rate on the calculator
[17:11] <Willdude123> eroomde: Do you have a clue why the UBX is still txing everything even though I turned all except gga off?
[17:12] <eroomde> so, the calculator can work out that you need, for that size balloon and payload, to get your desired ascent rate
[17:12] <eroomde> and it might say that that boyancy figures needs to be about 500g
[17:12] <cyclops> eroomde another explanation for my text :P
[17:12] <eroomde> just as an example
[17:13] <eroomde> so you now need to stick into the balloon an amount of helium that will give you enough bouyancy to both lift the 1000g balloon, the 1000g payload, *and* provide 500g excess bouyancy
[17:13] <eroomde> so 2.5kg of bouyancy total
[17:13] <eroomde> in this example
[17:14] <LeoBodnar> How closely latex balloon ascent rate follows aerodynamic drag calculation for spherical/teardrop shaped body? I have calculated it for picos and had to introduce additional bodge factor to line up with actuality
[17:14] <eroomde> now, when you fill the balloon, by the point it can lift itself up, without anything attached, you've already got 1000g of lift inside
[17:14] <eroomde> because the balloon is lifting its own weight
[17:14] <Steve_2E0VET> eroomde, so if I put those figures in the calculator (i know i could work them manually) will one of the fields say approx 2.5kg
[17:14] <eroomde> so at that point you need an extr` 1.5kg of lift - to lift the 1kg payload and give you the 500g of excess lift
[17:15] <eroomde> well, i made the numbers up, but it will tell you 'neck lift'
[17:15] <eroomde> which is total lift minus the mass of the balloon
[17:15] <eroomde> i.e. it's how much the neck of the balloon tugs on you holding it
[17:16] <Steve_2E0VET> you were pretty close 2603g
[17:16] <eroomde> cool
[17:16] <eroomde> well, i've done this before :)
[17:16] <craag> Pull request for 100g hwoyee sent.
[17:17] <eroomde> so we just fill up a bag of crap that weighs what what the payload + the excess lift weighs
[17:17] <Willdude123> I guess it might not be connected properly.
[17:17] <Willdude123> It looks like it.
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[17:17] <eroomde> and when the balloon can *only just* start to slowly lift that bag, we know it has a lift of payload-weight + excess lift
[17:17] <eroomde> do you see?
[17:17] <Willdude123> It's plugged in correctly.
[17:18] <Willdude123> I have no clue where my problem is.
[17:18] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: they aort of behave like a sphere but some of them are a bit tear-droppy, eg the Cd is nearer 0.2 than 0.3 on the big ones
[17:18] <Willdude123> I've triple checked it.
[17:18] <eroomde> also you can definitely predict and observe the transition from laminar flow to turbulent flow during ascent
[17:18] <LeoBodnar> +5H44
[17:18] <Steve_2E0VET> ero yep got that thanks
[17:18] <LeoBodnar> Still close
[17:18] <eroomde> on the smaller balloons that stay more spherical
[17:18] <LeoBodnar> What was that?
[17:18] <eroomde> at almost exactly the right reynolds number range
[17:18] <LeoBodnar> Cool
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[17:19] <cyclops> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-4-pk-ENERGIZER-Lithium-AA-Ultimate-LR6-8-batteries-/280364613146#shId Good price isnt it?
[17:19] <LeoBodnar> I guess foil one when semi-inflated has a strange heart-like shape
[17:20] <eroomde> Willdude123: have you been getting confirmations (ACKs) back from the gps?
[17:20] <Steve_2E0VET> where are the best places to buy the gas
[17:20] <Willdude123> eroomde: No, how do I read them?
[17:20] <Willdude123> *idk
[17:21] <eroomde> when you send a cfg packet to the ublox, it should immediately reply with something
[17:21] <Steve_2E0VET> helium i should have said
[17:21] <eroomde> i forget exactly the message, but it's a string of bytes that will be either ack or nack
[17:21] <eroomde> iirc, there are 2 numbers it always sends at the beginning of every message just to mark the start
[17:22] <eroomde> a bit like $$ in the ukhas string
[17:22] <eroomde> and then 2 numbers which are either the ack or the neck
[17:22] <eroomde> hang on will download the datasheet
[17:22] <eroomde> what program are you using to talk to it willdude?
[17:22] Action: cm13g09 missed all the action today
[17:22] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: BOC are generally suggested
[17:22] <craag> cm13g09: There was none.
[17:23] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, simple as that
[17:23] <eroomde> i think there are some others too
[17:23] <eroomde> balloon-gas or something
[17:23] <cm13g09> I'll end up missing anything tomorrow as well
[17:23] <cm13g09> chrisstubbs: around?
[17:23] <Steve_2E0VET> just trying to work how much its costs to fill a ballon
[17:23] <craag> eroomde: They stopped taking new customers a while ago.
[17:23] <eroomde> ah right
[17:23] <Willdude123> eroomde: http://pastie.org/8159005#
[17:24] <eroomde> Steve_2E0VET: Air Products are a BOC alternative too
[17:24] <craag> Although I heard someone used them recently, so they might have relaxed.
[17:24] <eroomde> Willdude123: ok cool
[17:24] <Willdude123> eroomde: So I'll print ser.read afterwards?
[17:24] <eroomde> yep
[17:24] <eroomde> so what i would do this this:
[17:24] <craag> cm13g09: I think he'll be in the 'panic' stage of launch prep
[17:24] <eroomde> just print the first thing
[17:24] <eroomde> the gll thing
[17:25] <craag> How coem you're missing tomorrow?
[17:25] <eroomde> then go straight to listening to the reply
[17:25] <Willdude123> Ah ok.
[17:25] <eroomde> so you don't miss it while sending more stuff subsequently
[17:25] <eroomde> so do you have the receiver description to hand?
[17:25] <Willdude123> I have the HIM
[17:25] <eroomde> cool perfect
[17:25] <cm13g09> craag: I'm spending the day being shot at.... repeatedly.... and probably ending up some weird shade of orange....
[17:25] <eroomde> oh wait, that's the hardware integration manual
[17:26] <eroomde> i think you want the receiver description protocol
[17:26] <eroomde> http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/u-blox6_ReceiverDescriptionProtocolSpec_(GPS.G6-SW-10018).pdf
[17:26] <craag> cm13g09: Can't you take the tracker with you? Just wrap it up in some tape..
[17:26] <cyclops> BTW for testing purposes could a 200g balloon lift 500g payload at about 40m altitude?
[17:26] <craag> *RTLSDR
[17:26] <cm13g09> craag: sadly not....
[17:26] <eroomde> let me know when you've got it. i'll show you the relevent stuff
[17:26] <fsphil> I could get a payload to 40m with a big stick :)
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> asegi?
[17:27] <eroomde> cyclops: a 200 balloon would get that to several km!
[17:27] <Willdude123> eroomde: The HIM specifies the protocol
[17:27] <craag> BTW: For those of you who missed it, Mark & Cassie's HAB talk at AMSAT is now up on the batc.tv Film Archive.
[17:27] <eroomde> does it?
[17:27] <eroomde> ok
[17:27] <eroomde> could you link me too it?
[17:27] <cyclops> Im looking for a cheap one to test
[17:27] <eroomde> just so we're (literally) on the same page
[17:27] <gonzo__mob> that was quick! usually tskes weeks
[17:28] <craag> gonzo__mob: I did some poking :)
[17:28] <cyclops> and as the Ukhas wiki says por 30km i need the 1200g one
[17:28] <cyclops> for obout 600g
[17:28] <gonzo__mob> ooer!
[17:28] <Willdude123> http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/LEA-6_NEO-6_MAX-6_HardwareIntegrationManual_%28GPS.G6-HW-09007%29.pdf
[17:28] <Willdude123> It goes into less detail.
[17:28] <Willdude123> I'll stick with the other one
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[17:28] <eroomde> the receiver description i just linked to?
[17:28] <Willdude123> The HIm doesn't metnion ack
[17:28] <Willdude123> Yes
[17:29] <eroomde> ok
[17:29] <Willdude123> So I'll just ser.read() straight after that?
[17:29] <eroomde> so, page 96
[17:29] <eroomde> yes
[17:29] <cyclops> Well for testing i think I should go with the 100g version
[17:29] <eroomde> page 96 of the pdf, page 84 of the document
[17:29] <x-f> cyclops, you can test your setup on the ground - leave your payload somewhere, then drive as far as you can while still having a fairly clear line of sight
[17:30] <cyclops> x-f and for nearly free (gas :P)
[17:30] <cyclops> ill do that
[17:30] <PB0NER> hmmm tomorrow afternoon wil be busy time...
[17:30] <Willdude123> eroomde: p91 has the bit about acks.
[17:31] <eroomde> hmm, i realise i might be confusing you unecessarily
[17:32] <eroomde> stick with what we said, sending just one instruction
[17:32] <eroomde> then seeing what happens
[17:33] <eroomde> so this is a script you're running on your BBB?
[17:33] <Willdude123> No
[17:33] <Willdude123> On my pc
[17:33] <Willdude123> FTDI
[17:34] <Willdude123> Still txing GLL, despite being disabled.
[17:34] <eroomde> cool fine
[17:35] <Willdude123> Is this normal then?
[17:35] <cm13g09> craag: ping
[17:35] <craag> cm13g09: pong
[17:38] <eroomde> Willdude123: i think you might be calculating your checksum wrong
[17:38] <eroomde> try
[17:38] <eroomde> $PUBX,40,GLL,1,0,0,0,0,0*5D
[17:39] <eroomde> instead of *5C on the end
[17:40] <Willdude123> eroomde: I didn't calculate it.
[17:40] <eroomde> ok
[17:40] <eroomde> well, try it anyway
[17:40] <Willdude123> eroomde: Nah, no use.
[17:40] <eroomde> you're still getting GLL?
[17:41] <Willdude123> Yeah
[17:43] <eroomde> can you copy into pastie the current script?
[17:44] <Steve_2E0VET> any advise on what filling equipment i should use and what size cylinder to initially purchae
[17:44] <eroomde> Steve_2E0VET: you need some soft of tube to put the ballon neck over during fill
[17:45] <eroomde> and a hose from the cylinder
[17:45] <eroomde> to stuck up the tube
[17:45] <eroomde> stick*
[17:45] <Willdude123> http://pastie.org/8159078
[17:45] <eroomde> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:sealing_the_balloon
[17:46] <eroomde> Willdude123: i think your message is the wrong shape
[17:46] <eroomde> so
[17:46] <eroomde> page94
[17:46] <eroomde> of the datasheet
[17:47] <Willdude123> Right
[17:47] <eroomde> UBX,40
[17:47] <Willdude123> The wrong shape though?
[17:47] <eroomde> not enough fields
[17:47] <eroomde> notice from the table
[17:47] <eroomde> pubx, 40, gll
[17:47] <Willdude123> Oh
[17:47] <eroomde> then *five* 1s or 0s are required
[17:47] <eroomde> before the 0*checksum
[17:47] <eroomde> you only have 4 there
[17:47] <Willdude123> I'd taken the messages from ukhas wiki.
[17:47] <eroomde> 3 3v3n
[17:47] <Willdude123> *i've
[17:47] <eroomde> 3 even*
[17:48] <eroomde> 99.9% of the time, you want to trust the datahseet over what some other hobbyists reckon
[17:48] <eroomde> not always, but 99.9% of the time
[17:48] <Willdude123> But I've used the wiki sample on the arduino before and it worked.
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[17:50] <Willdude123> Using the datasheet example. still doesn't work.
[17:52] <eroomde> ok
[17:52] <eroomde> are you on windows?
[17:52] <Willdude123> Yah
[17:53] <Willdude123> I could try a loopback I guess?
[17:53] <eroomde> i was gonna suggest that
[17:54] <eroomde> also i don;t think you need timout in this though i'm not sure it would be causing this problem
[17:54] <eroomde> i was going to suggest you fire up hypertminal
[17:54] <eroomde> it's probably somewhere in your accessories folder
[17:54] <eroomde> i have not used windows for many years so i might be misremembering
[17:55] <fsphil> horrible program
[17:55] <Laurenceb_> matlab question:
[17:55] <eroomde> i don't know what's good for windows
[17:55] Action: cm13g09 recommends PuTTY
[17:55] <fsphil> yea putty does serial
[17:55] <eroomde> ok
[17:55] <Willdude123> It works
[17:55] <eroomde> willdude, perhaps install putty
[17:56] <eroomde> it works?
[17:56] <Laurenceb_> how can i create a "diagonal" matrix with another matrix along its diagonal?
[17:56] <eroomde> what did you change?
[17:56] <Willdude123> Python
[17:56] <Willdude123> Wait no
[17:56] <Willdude123> The loopback works
[17:56] <eroomde> ok cool
[17:56] <eroomde> so you just see it printed back to you
[17:56] <Willdude123> Yeah
[17:56] <eroomde> ok fine
[17:57] <eroomde> well, i would still be inclined to try this with putty as fsphil and cm13g09 suggested
[17:57] <Willdude123> The loopback?
[17:57] <eroomde> just because you can be exaplict about exactly what serial port setting you have
[17:57] <eroomde> the ubx
[17:58] <Willdude123> KK
[17:58] <Steve_2E0VET> is there a simplier search or even FAQ on the UKHAS Wiki, something as simple as attach parachute to ballon doesnt give any results
[17:58] <Willdude123> So I'll just paste it in, while the GPS is txing?
[17:58] <eroomde> Steve_2E0VET: that's because you want to attach the parachute to the payload
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[17:58] <eroomde> but also
[17:58] <eroomde> before you get too far into this
[17:59] <eroomde> please don;t get too into the mindset that this is some official hobby with official ways of doing things.
[17:59] <Steve_2E0VET> i thought it was payload>parachute>ballon
[17:59] <eroomde> yes i see what you mean now
[17:59] <eroomde> but what i was going to say is, you'll presumably buy a balloon, buy a parachute, and have to attach them
[17:59] <Steve_2E0VET> eroomde, yes i know what you mean
[18:00] <Willdude123> eroomde: Of course it isn't.
[18:00] <eroomde> well, just attach them. with a knot or something
[18:00] <Willdude123> Wait
[18:00] <Willdude123> That wasn't for me was it?
[18:00] <eroomde> well, it's just often people think there must be some awesome way of doing something that they haven't thought of
[18:00] <eroomde> whereas usually their intuition is perfectly right
[18:00] <eroomde> and they should just do it how they think makes sense
[18:00] <Willdude123> Right.
[18:01] <Willdude123> So I'll paste the sentence in.
[18:01] <eroomde> well, first is it spitting out nmea stuff?
[18:01] <fsphil> my and my intuition don't get on
[18:01] <eroomde> so you know the link is working
[18:01] <Willdude123> eroomde: Yah
[18:01] <eroomde> cool
[18:01] <eroomde> ok, over to you to paste, as you say
[18:01] <Steve_2E0VET> eroomde, its just all the pictures i have seen seem to have the balloon attached to the shute, otherwise the shute would be left floating about and presumably cause drag
[18:01] <Willdude123> But pasting it does nothing.
[18:01] <eroomde> yep you're right
[18:01] <eroomde> it's usually just a knot tho
[18:01] <Willdude123> It doesn't even show.
[18:02] <fsphil> I hang the chute to the cord, about 2/3 of the way up
[18:02] <eroomde> some chutes have a little fabric loop at the top
[18:02] <fsphil> it does cause some drag on the way up
[18:02] <eroomde> that you can use for that
[18:02] <Willdude123> I can't tx to it at all.
[18:02] <Steve_2E0VET> that answers my question.
[18:02] <fsphil> also causes instability, shakes the payload about a lot
[18:02] <Steve_2E0VET> the only thing i havent worked out yet is how to purchase all this stuff without the wife knowing
[18:03] <fsphil> now that's a challange
[18:03] <eroomde> no faq can help ou with that :)
[18:03] <fsphil> a small bit each week :)
[18:03] <craag> lol must be on the wiki somewhere surely..
[18:03] <fsphil> probably is
[18:03] <fsphil> along with the last digit of Pi
[18:03] <eroomde> Willdude123: what do you mean?
[18:04] <Willdude123> Typing into putty while it's txing all this nmea does nothing.
[18:04] <craag> Hmm iridium 9602 is only 30g.. that could go on a 100g float.
[18:04] <eroomde> did you copy and paste?
[18:04] <craag> Just need someone to pay for it..
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[18:05] <Willdude123> eroomde: Pasting doesn't work either.
[18:05] <LeoBodnar> craag: what is your float plan?
[18:05] <eroomde> hmm
[18:05] <eroomde> could you quickly try loopback?
[18:06] <craag> LeoBodnar: Netted 100g hwoyee, limited to 1.5-1.6m
[18:06] <fsphil> I joked a while back about using tights
[18:06] <craag> haha
[18:06] <fsphil> but it might actually work
[18:06] <fsphil> for the small foils
[18:06] <Willdude123> eroomde: On putty/
[18:06] <craag> hmm yeah
[18:06] <Willdude123> ?
[18:06] <LeoBodnar> Get really fancy ones then
[18:06] <fsphil> though no way I'm going to go into the shop to buy it
[18:06] <fsphil> "No it's not for me"
[18:06] <craag> lol
[18:07] <LeoBodnar> "I want the largest ones you can get!" oO
[18:07] <fsphil> lol
[18:07] <craag> "You shouldn't refer to your gf as a balloon, she's big boned!"
[18:08] <eroomde> Willdude123: yep on putty
[18:08] <Willdude123> I can tx but not rx.
[18:08] <fsphil> "It's to hold my payload... no don't call security!"
[18:08] <Willdude123> I think putty is only one way
[18:08] <LeoBodnar> craag: I mean power-wise, flight plan, trackers ? Ideal scenario?
[18:09] <craag> LeoBodnar: Trackers: CC430-based RTTY, max-7 in powersave off 2x AA for a first.
[18:09] <eroomde> Willdude123: it shouldn't be but it might be to do with some settings
[18:09] <eroomde> sadly because i'm not windows i can't try it out here
[18:09] <LeoBodnar> So it should be 3-4 days?
[18:09] <craag> Then put solar panel on top of the balloon with some sort of diode-or for the next one.
[18:09] <craag> Yeah, don't think it'll stay in range/up longer than that tbh.
[18:09] <fsphil> nice sarcasm there eroomde
[18:10] <craag> Flaot at ~11km
[18:10] <eroomde> well, unfortunate for will
[18:10] <fsphil> I'm installing Debian on one of my machines
[18:10] <craag> Can push that to 15km once we know the net works.
[18:10] <fsphil> I've had an argument with Fedora. We're living apart now
[18:10] <LeoBodnar> Do ATC hand over these things?
[18:10] <eroomde> who are you living with fsphil?
[18:11] <fsphil> Debian
[18:11] <LeoBodnar> When it floats across airspace?
[18:11] <craag> ATC?
[18:11] <fsphil> well on one of my machines. I'm two-timing distros
[18:11] <craag> oh
[18:11] <LeoBodnar> 11km is a bit busy
[18:11] <jonsowman> lol fsphil
[18:11] <craag> Really, I thought that was quite high?
[18:11] <craag> Like higher than most planes.
[18:11] <fsphil> transatlantic flights are 10km
[18:12] <craag> Ah ok.
[18:12] <fsphil> the flight I was on last year got to 11km
[18:12] <Willdude123> eroomde: Right.
[18:12] <eroomde> Willdude123: maybe try it in hyperterm
[18:12] <Willdude123> Yeah
[18:12] <eroomde> i'm pretty sure you can tx in hyperterm
[18:12] <craag> It'll be pico technically, so legally not an issue, and we'll be aiming higher in the longterm.
[18:12] <mikestir> putty serial is definitely two way
[18:13] <craag> I jsut want the first one to achieve float for 1 minute and I'll be happy.
[18:13] <LeoBodnar> Watch this in the morning or early afternoon http://www.flightradar24.com/
[18:14] <LeoBodnar> I know the feeling! :)
[18:14] <LeoBodnar> I don't see why not.
[18:14] <LeoBodnar> Ah, smaller than 2m dia?
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[18:14] <craag> Yeah net restricting balloon to 1.6m, then payload box mounted flush to the net
[18:14] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[18:15] <Lunar_Lander> craag, do you have a minute?
[18:15] <craag> Lunar_Lander: I do.
[18:16] <LeoBodnar> When is it going up craag ? I wanted to do restricted envelope latex but got seduced by foils :)
[18:16] <Willdude123> Wow just found a really good way to get rid of spotify adverts.
[18:16] <Willdude123> Take headphones off.
[18:16] <craag> LeoBodnar: I have the netting on order, might throw away an old tracker on first one, then use CC430 once I've got the PCB back.
[18:16] <craag> Probably a month or so though.
[18:16] <fsphil> I solved that by not using spotify
[18:17] <fsphil> they where putting on adverts even though I was paying them
[18:17] <cyclops> Lol¿
[18:17] <LeoBodnar> I am excited, no rush craag!
[18:17] <cyclops> I just pay spotify premium
[18:17] <cyclops> And no adverts
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[18:17] <LeoBodnar> Tuesday next week is OK :)
[18:17] <fsphil> I was cyclops. but they still showed adverts for facebook
[18:18] <cyclops> I didnt noticed them
[18:18] <craag> lol LeoBodnar, I start a new job on monday, might have to do real work for the first few days :P
[18:18] <fsphil> got rid of it after a while
[18:18] <fsphil> oh no work!
[18:19] <Laurenceb_> ping eroomde
[18:19] <eroomde> pong
[18:19] <Laurenceb_> im still trying to do linear fitting :-/
[18:20] <Laurenceb_> so if i just use linear regression, all data points are equally weighted
[18:20] <Laurenceb_> which is kind of bad
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[18:20] <Laurenceb_> so im trying to do a sort of 2 stage process
[18:20] <LeoBodnar> craag: what is the balloon+netting+payload weight and restricted volume? I want to plug it into my foil calculations and see what happens
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[18:21] <Laurenceb_> first stage i try to fit the absorbers i have present - basically a set of vectorsa
[18:21] <Willdude123> eroomde: Pasted to host under hyperterm.
[18:21] <Willdude123> Still getting GLL.
[18:21] <Laurenceb_> then second stage, i look at errors
[18:21] <Laurenceb_> and use that for weighted least squares for a linear absorber ramp
[18:21] <Laurenceb_> anyways...
[18:21] <Laurenceb_> im stuck on the first part
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[18:21] <LeoBodnar> craag: 100g balloon + say 50g payload + ?? netting?
[18:22] <Laurenceb_> im wondering if there is anything better than LinearRegress in matlab
[18:22] <Laurenceb_> im trying to fit 2 absorbers to 5 wavelength data
[18:22] <eroomde> Willdude123: is this the same gps where it def worked with the afduino?
[18:22] <Laurenceb_> so a set of two 5 vectors
[18:22] <Laurenceb_> for each data point, where each datapoint is a 5 vector
[18:22] <Willdude123> eroomde: Yeah
[18:23] <eroomde> could you check it still does?
[18:23] <Laurenceb_> to do this with LinearRegress means horrible matrix rearrangement stuff
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[18:23] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: sure
[18:23] <Laurenceb_> as LinearRegress takes vector arguments
[18:23] <Willdude123> Well, I checked a couple days ago but ok
[18:24] <Willdude123> SS Ok for this?
[18:25] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: i find it difficult to follow as the appplication-sepfific language just is noise to me
[18:25] <eroomde> i don;t know what an absorber is
[18:25] <Laurenceb_> yeah sorry
[18:25] <Laurenceb_> its a 5 vector
[18:25] <Laurenceb_> so each datapoint is a 5 vector
[18:25] <eroomde> ok sure
[18:25] Jonathan_G4KLX (naylorjs@host-78-149-98-143.as13285.net) left irc:
[18:25] <Laurenceb_> and i model it as the sum of two other 5 vectors
[18:25] <Laurenceb_> these are my "absorbers"
[18:25] <eroomde> sure
[18:26] <Laurenceb_> i know i have a linear ramp in absorbers
[18:26] <Laurenceb_> versus time
[18:26] <eroomde> so if y is a datapoint, y = a1 + a2 ?
[18:26] <Laurenceb_> but also versus time, bad shit is happening intermittently
[18:26] <Laurenceb_> so i want to do WLS to avoid the bad data
[18:26] <Laurenceb_> bad data is identified as it has a poor fit to the two absorbers
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> yes
[18:27] <eroomde> ok
[18:27] <eroomde> well you can generalise gls (ho)
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> i can do all the statistics and stuff from the point where i get the two absorbers and errors on their fit values
[18:27] <eroomde> to bayesian linear regression
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> atm im using gls for both stages
[18:27] <eroomde> where you can give a cost function of observation vs model that is arbitrary
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> that just gives me best fit ramps
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[18:27] <eroomde> though gaussian might be a nice fit
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[18:28] <Laurenceb_> i now want best fit ramps + 95% confidence intervals on ramp rates
[18:28] <Laurenceb_> which is where im stuck
[18:28] <Willdude123> Yeah it does eroomde
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[18:28] <Laurenceb_> i was trying to use LinearRegress as it will give me 95% confidence intervals
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[18:29] <Laurenceb_> but reformulating the initial problem in a way that it can be passes to LinearRegress is a pita
[18:29] <Laurenceb_> *d
[18:29] <Laurenceb_> ill google the bayesian thingy, thanks
[18:30] <eroomde> could i poss have a look at some dataz?
[18:30] <Laurenceb_> hmm yeah
[18:30] <Laurenceb_> its a little complex, id have to make it user friendly
[18:30] <eroomde> don't worry for now
[18:30] <Laurenceb_> and its a few meg atm...
[18:30] <Laurenceb_> thanks for the help
[18:30] <Willdude123> eroomde: right it works with the arduino.
[18:30] <LeoBodnar> craag: do you have netting weight for your 100g balloon?
[18:31] <craag> LeoBodnar: Sorry, looking at analog design genius with LL
[18:31] <craag> netting is 13g/m2
[18:32] <LeoBodnar> OK, back into Excel :)
[18:32] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/sbUhkVNT
[18:32] <LeoBodnar> ta
[18:32] <eroomde> Willdude123: ok cool
[18:32] <craag> Ideally I'd need 7m2 of it, but obviously won't be able get a perfect sphere, so was aiming near 10.
[18:32] <eroomde> so it looks like it might be some kind of problem/issue with the pc's serial port
[18:32] <eroomde> a configuration or something
[18:32] <craag> that's the big bit of uncertainty
[18:32] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: last 5 columns are exp(-abs_vector)
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[18:33] <Laurenceb_> somewhere i have the absorbers...
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[18:34] <Willdude123> eroomde: AFK for dinner, will look at it later.
[18:34] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/a9r0pM0p
[18:34] <Laurenceb_> 2 absorbers
[18:35] <Laurenceb_> so the first set of data needs be "logged"
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[18:37] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: this might be useful, re: gayesian regression
[18:37] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtkGq9tdYcI
[18:37] <Laurenceb_> oh dear
[18:38] <Laurenceb_> oh its serious and you typoed :P
[18:38] <eroomde> whoops
[18:38] <Laurenceb_> lolz i though itd be a spoof for a second
[18:38] <eroomde> i really did
[18:39] <LeoBodnar> craag: balloon 1.6m dia, 100g, netting 104g, payload 50g, chute 50g, 100g free lift, 20% fill at launch (0.42m^3), ascent rate 2.3m/s night float altitude 15000m, overpressure 0.4psi(2.7kPa)
[18:40] <LeoBodnar> Does this sound right?
[18:40] <craag> LeoBodnar: Yep, not sure I'll manage to get the netting that light (gonna be difficult to make a perfect sphere at 1.5m acroos)
[18:41] <craag> But otherwise, yes, that's exactly what I'm aiming for, maybe a little more payload weight later for extra trackers (eg APRS, or iridium if i get funding)
[18:41] <LeoBodnar> Netting weight 200g, free lift 100g fill 24% to 0.52m^3, float altitude 13500m
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> Sounds good!
[18:42] <craag> Perfect.
[18:42] <craag> Not much He either.. nice and cheap.
[18:43] <LeoBodnar> Yeah
[18:43] <craag> Gonna be cold up there though, wondering if solar-panel powered heater might be a good idea to resuscitate it in the mornings if it has a bad night.
[18:43] <LeoBodnar> Paint payload black
[18:44] <LeoBodnar> Why use electrons as 3rd party?
[18:44] <craag> Because then you can get the heat directly inside the insulation, during the whole day.
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[18:45] <craag> if the payload is flush with the bottom of the balloon, it's only going to get sunlight on it for the first few hours, and on the outside of it too.
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[18:45] <LeoBodnar> You won't be able to stop heat from escaping during the night anyway so make insulation thin and heat it by the sunlight
[18:45] <craag> Also if we have spare weight, some kind of UV-proof sheet to go over the balloon and protect it, dunno what yet.
[18:45] <craag> Yeah true
[18:46] <Steve_2E0VET> Other than a raspberry pi, are there any suggestions for video & stills in the payload
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[18:46] <eroomde> well, for video if you're happy to store onbard there are lots ofmoptions
[18:46] <eroomde> any video camera really
[18:46] <cyclops> Steve ill use som e cheap cameras
[18:46] <eroomde> likewise stills
[18:46] <cyclops> Leme find the link
[18:47] <eroomde> if you want to transmit down, i would imagine it would be quite simple to adapt existing code to any little linux computer
[18:47] <fsphil> aye
[18:47] <eroomde> fsphil, who wrote the ssdv code, also got it working on a little atmgea328
[18:47] <Steve_2E0VET> i presume the NTX2 wont transmit the video back down - maybe thats too ambitious at this stage of the game
[18:47] <eroomde> the chip the arduinos use
[18:47] <eroomde> Steve_2E0VET: yes, too mabitious
[18:47] <fsphil> not video, but still pictures
[18:47] <cyclops> If you want to record on board
[18:47] <cyclops> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17200__HD_Wing_Camera_1280x720p_30fps_5MP_CMOS.html
[18:47] <eroomde> we don;t really have the link budget for live video
[18:48] <Steve_2E0VET> alternativly i could send my Rpi up as well with its camera
[18:49] <cyclops> But its more battery consuming
[18:49] <cyclops> It depends on what you want
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[18:52] <fsphil> the Pi cam isn't too bad
[18:52] <fsphil> I expected it to be crap. but it's alright
[18:52] <fsphil> not great
[18:52] <fsphil> but for the price it's good
[18:53] <cyclops> I think its records 1080p
[18:53] <cyclops> Well the dawnfall of all these cameras is the lens
[18:53] <cyclops> THe most important part
[18:53] <Steve_2E0VET> cyclops, yeah just thinking of the payload weight
[18:54] <cyclops> these cameras, i ordered 2, are 32g each
[18:54] <cyclops> And as ill detach the battery and add the energizer
[18:54] <cyclops> Lighter
[18:54] <Steve_2E0VET> i really want to use the pi so i can take stills inbetween video
[18:54] <cyclops> Thats why I ordered 2 cameras :P
[18:55] <cyclops> one video the other photos
[18:55] <Steve_2E0VET> whats the maximum payload a hw0yee 100 can take ?
[18:55] <Steve_2E0VET> are hobby king in the US
[18:56] <cyclops> I am in spain
[18:57] <cyclops> I ordered to the Netherlands wharehause
[18:57] <cyclops> They have another in germany
[18:57] <cyclops> So no customs fees
[18:58] <Willdude123> Bonjour
[18:59] <cyclops> there is also a heavier 12MP and 1080P video
[18:59] <cyclops> for 90$
[18:59] <fsphil> Bonsoir
[19:00] <fsphil> I got a Gopro with the intention of flying it, but the price of it has kept it on the ground so far :)
[19:00] <LazyLeopard> Yeah, predictions involving moorland and sea will do that...
[19:00] <cyclops> I thought on getting one
[19:01] <cyclops> But 300¬
[19:01] <cyclops> And these 2 cameras are only 70¬ in comparison
[19:01] <cyclops> 35 each
[19:01] <mattbrejza> contour roams are cheaper and about the same video quality
[19:01] <mattbrejza> but not ¬35
[19:02] <cyclops> I was triying to spend only 300¬ total
[19:02] <cyclops> And I allready spent 400¬
[19:02] <Willdude123> eroomde: http://imgur.com/MsMHZ0R
[19:02] <Willdude123> My setup
[19:02] <cyclops> and need to spend 200¬ more XD
[19:03] <mattbrejza> yea balloon, helium, parachute will take most of 400
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[19:03] <cyclops> yes
[19:03] <cyclops> Pretty expensive
[19:03] <cyclops> and 200¬ funcube
[19:03] <Steve_2E0VET> how much!!!!!! for helium
[19:04] <Steve_2E0VET> that was a statement not a question
[19:04] <mattbrejza> i ment to say 300
[19:04] <cyclops> I calculated about 100¬ ill spent
[19:04] <cyclops> in helium
[19:04] <cyclops> *spend
[19:05] <Steve_2E0VET> does anyone know how much hellium is in the UK
[19:05] <mattbrejza> 9m3 is like 150ish i tihink
[19:05] <Steve_2E0VET> what sort of size ballon would that will - roughly
[19:06] <fsphil> the T is about 150
[19:06] <Steve_2E0VET> *fill even
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[19:06] <mattbrejza> 9m3 will fill two 1600g ones
[19:06] <fsphil> it's 3.6m/3
[19:06] <fsphil> where are you getting 9m3 for £150?
[19:06] <Steve_2E0VET> phew!! my first flight is with a 100g balloon
[19:06] <mattbrejza> that might be ex-vat
[19:07] <mattbrejza> i dunno, havnt actually had to buy any
[19:07] <fsphil> possibly
[19:07] <mattbrejza> or ex-hire
[19:07] <mattbrejza> or special uni price
[19:07] <fsphil> the T was just over £100 when I got it first
[19:07] <fsphil> it's now closer to £150
[19:07] <mattbrejza> T is 3m3?
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[19:07] <fsphil> yea
[19:07] <fsphil> 3.6
[19:07] <fsphil> even
[19:08] <fsphil> a 100g doesn't need much .. a little V cylinder could probably fill a couple
[19:08] <fsphil> the T can fill one 1600g
[19:08] <fsphil> and 1 and a half 1000g's
[19:09] <mattbrejza> and not for a very fast ascent if you have a heavy payload
[19:09] <fsphil> yes
[19:09] <cyclops> but it depends on the weight of the paiload
[19:09] <fsphil> my 1600g was carrying a very light payload
[19:09] <fsphil> so yea it might not be enough for something that weighs 600g or more
[19:09] <fsphil> but the 1600g is a big balloon
[19:10] <fsphil> unlikely anyone would need that for a standard flight
[19:10] <fsphil> unless they're doing ed sized payloads
[19:10] <cyclops> i think ill use a 800g for a 500g payload
[19:10] <Laurenceb__> eroomde: http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/doc/interpreter/Linear-Least-Squares.html
[19:11] <Laurenceb__> does the gls explanation make any sense to you?
[19:11] <Laurenceb__> cov (vec (e)) = (s^2) o <- wtf
[19:11] <Laurenceb__> s is an output, o is an input
[19:12] <mattbrejza> a couple of stills and video camera quickly add up to 1.3kg
[19:12] <mattbrejza> especially if the school want to pt a bear on it...
[19:12] <fsphil> haha
[19:12] <fsphil> everyone* loves teddy's in space*
[19:12] <Willdude123> Dammit
[19:12] <fsphil> *(almost)
[19:13] <fsphil> *(not space)
[19:13] <Willdude123> The serial port isn't even opening at all now.
[19:13] <Willdude123> Cba to reboot.
[19:13] <fsphil> yay windows
[19:13] <Willdude123> I'll just wait for the soldering iron.
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[19:16] <cyclops> dave
[19:16] <cyclops> One question, how long is the cord you use from balloon to the payload?
[19:17] <daveake> 10m
[19:17] <cyclops> As i've been told the longer the more stable photos are
[19:17] <daveake> for payload-chute
[19:17] <daveake> 5m
[19:17] <daveake> for chute-balloon
[19:17] <daveake> some people swap those around
[19:17] <daveake> main thing is to keep the 2 lengths different
[19:17] <cyclops> Any reason?
[19:18] <daveake> stop the balloon remains hitting the payload
[19:19] <cyclops> HUm
[19:19] <cyclops> Ok, thanks for the info!
[19:20] <Steve_2E0VET> so is that 10m from balloon to chute and 5m from chute to payload
[19:21] <mattbrejza> other way round
[19:22] <Steve_2E0VET> what cord is the most popular
[19:22] <cyclops> 1MM 0,6g meter?
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[19:25] <cyclops> just asking
[19:25] <cyclops> I dont know
[19:26] <daveake> 1mm for most
[19:26] <daveake> I use 0.7mm for light flights
[19:27] <mattbrejza> craag: whats that helicopter doing over your house?
[19:27] <daveake> and made the mistake of using it for a heavier one :p
[19:27] <cyclops> light is how much weight?
[19:27] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: I suspect it's investigating UFOs ;)
[19:27] <cyclops> picoflights¿
[19:27] <craag> mattbrejza: Putting up the new mast. :)
[19:27] <daveake> Well 0.7 is approx 10kg breaking strain
[19:27] <mattbrejza> how nice of them
[19:27] <cyclops> 1mm is about 22kg
[19:27] <daveake> but theres's the neck lift plus wind working on it
[19:28] <daveake> In my case 4kg neck lift
[19:28] <daveake> it broke
[19:28] <mattbrejza> i think is almost over where i think you live anyway
[19:28] <cyclops> i plan on a 600g payload
[19:28] <cyclops> so 1mm will be ok?
[19:28] <daveake> I'd go for 1mm
[19:28] <craag> mattbrejza: About half a mile to the east of here actually
[19:28] <cyclops> BTW dave im the one from spain who asked you so many questions by email :P
[19:28] <craag> I'm in Flowers estate, LOS mountbatten.
[19:29] <mattbrejza> yea i thought it was about in line with uni
[19:29] <cyclops> I finally ended up using an Arduino instead of Raspberry
[19:30] <mattbrejza> also the flowers estate is the most likely place for it to hover over
[19:30] <craag> absolutely
[19:30] <craag> it was probably directly over Muzer 's hosue in fact.
[19:30] <craag> gone now though, taken him away.
[19:30] <mattbrejza> i can still see it
[19:30] <LeoBodnar> hover over Flowers for hours
[19:31] <mattbrejza> now NE of me
[19:31] <Steve_2E0VET> cyclops, I think i might use both Ardunio for RF & GPS and Raspberry for video?
[19:31] <cyclops> Youll need a lot of batteries I think :P
[19:31] <mattbrejza> they only do drugs raidsin the morning though?
[19:31] <cyclops> Well I think you could
[19:31] <Steve_2E0VET> i was hoping for 2 x set of 4 1.5v
[19:32] <cyclops> Look at the rasp consumption
[19:32] <cyclops> I think ill need about 4 bats bearing in mind each is 3000mah
[19:32] <Steve_2E0VET> 50mah if i remember correctly
[19:32] <craag> Probably found his train photo collection and assumed he must be a terrorist
[19:32] <cyclops> Model B or A?
[19:32] <cyclops> model B i think is 500mah
[19:33] <Steve_2E0VET> each battery pack including 4x1.5v AA is 100g
[19:33] <Steve_2E0VET> Model B its the only one i have
[19:33] <cyclops> 500mah
[19:33] <craag> Model B is ~450mA but will be + 400mA or so for camera
[19:33] <Steve_2E0VET> cyclops, sorry 500 yes
[19:33] <craag> Lowend cameras maybe closer to 200mA
[19:34] <Steve_2E0VET> mine will only be up 10 mins anyway so wont matter
[19:34] <cyclops> arduino is 50mah
[19:34] <cyclops> I think
[19:34] <mattbrejza> more like 5-10
[19:35] <cyclops> better :P
[19:36] <cyclops> Sure Energizer Ultimate Lithium are 3000mah?
[19:37] <Upu> AA's yes
[19:37] <Upu> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf
[19:37] <cyclops> Upu
[19:38] <cyclops> Any Estimated time
[19:38] <cyclops> for you to theliver the Habduino? :P
[19:38] <Upu> Fractionally more
[19:38] <Upu> sure estimated 24 hours run time from a pair
[19:39] <cyclops> I mean to deliver the Habduino to my door :P
[19:39] <Upu> oh lol
[19:39] <Upu> a few weeks
[19:40] <Upu> I need to test fly it first
[19:40] <cyclops> A few is?
[19:40] <Upu> and price it up
[19:40] <mattbrejza> tbh i (if i had the parts) could solder up a tracker on some stripboard and shove it in the postbox by tomorrow evening
[19:40] <cyclops> You know I really need it soon
[19:40] <mattbrejza> so even if you have no idea what youre doing theres not too much too do
[19:40] <Upu> I'll send you one sooner under the condition you accept it as untested
[19:40] <mattbrejza> if you start with an arduino board thingy
[19:40] <Upu> I see no reason why it won't work
[19:40] <cyclops> Untested in air?
[19:40] <Upu> yes
[19:41] <cyclops> But tested that it sens pos and rtty on ground?
[19:41] <cyclops> *sends
[19:41] <Upu> I'll make you one up next week and work out how much they cost
[19:41] <cyclops> Thanks a lot
[19:41] <Upu> yeah tbh I'm sure it will work its based on stuff I know to work well
[19:41] <Steve_2E0VET> Upu, me too lol
[19:41] <cyclops> And as said
[19:41] <cyclops> Ill try to sell them here in spain
[19:42] <cyclops> For schools to use them
[19:42] <cyclops> Thanks again upu :D
[19:43] <Upu> I wanted to finish the documentation first :)
[19:43] <Steve_2E0VET> upu, do i presume you will be selling these
[19:43] <Upu> I will be yes but its all open source
[19:44] <Steve_2E0VET> Upu, is it just the code or the equipment as well
[19:44] <Upu> the hardware and software is open source
[19:44] <Upu> however I will be selling the PCB's made up
[19:45] <cyclops> My arduino just arrived today
[19:45] <Upu> See what I can do by the end of next week
[19:45] <cyclops> And funcube is here, so ready for further testing and fly
[19:45] <Steve_2E0VET> Upu, ok, its just i was going to purchase a NTX2 and ublox this week i already have the arduino
[19:45] <Upu> well hang fire
[19:46] <Steve_2E0VET> upu, ok how long for ? do you have any other info than what is on your site?
[19:46] <Upu> well hopefully end of next week
[19:46] <Steve_2E0VET> upu i was presuming habduino.org is your site
[19:46] <Upu> did you see your private message from me ?
[19:46] <Upu> yes its my site
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[19:50] <rharrison> EVENING ALL
[19:50] <rharrison> opps
[19:50] <Upu> HI ROB :)
[19:50] <rharrison> eving Uggy_
[19:50] <rharrison> opps
[19:50] <rharrison> eveing Upu
[19:50] <Upu> evening Rob
[19:51] <Upu> you in your office ?
[19:51] <rharrison> them were the days one tab and you got them
[19:51] <rharrison> at home
[19:51] <rharrison> ?
[19:51] <rharrison> Just pulling some files to watch
[19:51] <Upu> by your radio ? I want to know if you can receive my DominoEX16
[19:51] <rharrison> Cool
[19:51] <rharrison> One se
[19:51] <rharrison> ok freq
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[19:52] <rharrison> Is there a flight doc for it
[19:52] <Upu> 1 sec
[19:52] <Upu> no no
[19:52] <Upu> just select mode DominoEX16
[19:52] <Upu> 1 sec
[19:52] <Upu> 433.898
[19:52] <Upu> USB
[19:52] <Upu> just wiring it up
[19:53] <mfa298> Willdude123: reading the scrollback, have a look at the serial settings in putty (or hyperterminal) and in particular Flow control - for testing it's probably worth setting that to None (it's often default to something else which isn't always supported)
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[19:54] <Upu> ok
[19:54] <rharrison> dom?
[19:54] <Upu> 433897
[19:54] <rharrison> freq
[19:54] <Upu> op mode -> dominoEx16
[19:55] <mattbrejza> Upu: is 433.898 10mW ISM? (although you can claim amateur liscence atm)
[19:55] <eroomde> are you two recreating irc but in sloness?
[19:55] <eroomde> (tho post-apolocypse proof)
[19:55] <Upu> txing with call sign
[19:55] <Upu> need to amend frequency
[19:55] <rharrison> Can here it but very faint
[19:56] <Upu> does it decode ?
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> hi rharrison and Upu
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[19:56] <rharrison> hum can't see domino x on fldigi
[19:57] <eroomde> i seem to recall talking to fergus on irc and via trackers simultaneously
[19:57] <rharrison> whats the modem called?
[19:57] <fsphil> it should be there
[19:57] <Upu> op mode -> DominoEX -> DominoEX16
[19:57] <fsphil> if you can hear it at all, it should decode
[19:57] <fsphil> it's that kind of mode
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[19:59] <rharrison> Ok where do I center my thing?
[19:59] <Upu> but the signal between the lines
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[20:01] <rharrison> Ive got the line and the music but no decode
[20:01] <rharrison> Its very faint
[20:01] <rharrison> Can you lift it up?
[20:01] <Upu> not really hang on
[20:01] <Upu> let me see if I can connect it to my colinear
[20:01] <fsphil> haha, nice being able to test from your own rooms
[20:02] <Steve_2E0VET> if i used a Hwoyee 100, could i get away without a NOTAM, i would like to launch in a couple of weeks
[20:02] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Only if the total thing is less than 2m. It won't get you great photos.
[20:02] <daveake> probably not. Published (and actual) burst diameter is too large
[20:02] <rharrison> Ask the CAA
[20:02] <fsphil> their burst altitude is bigger than 2m sadly
[20:03] <Upu> that rharrison ?
[20:03] <rharrison> Like to see the plane that can see it burst
[20:03] <Steve_2E0VET> craag, when you say 2m are you including the line and shute or just the balloon
[20:04] <craag> Steve_2E0VET: Line,chute,payload. All of it (hence why you can't really do it with a normal payload.
[20:04] <rharrison> whats your number
[20:04] <rharrison> I'll call you landline and you can listen
[20:04] <rharrison> pm
[20:04] <fsphil> er, burst diameter*
[20:04] <Steve_2E0VET> ok, so 28 days it is, in reality how long does it take them to grant permission?
[20:04] <rharrison> less
[20:04] <Upu> never mind rharrison :)
[20:04] <rharrison> ok
[20:05] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/mRrZUQh.jpg
[20:05] <Upu> this is my issue :)
[20:05] <rharrison> tomorrw
[20:05] <Upu> holding a PL259 on a solder pad :)
[20:06] <Upu> cheers for having a listen
[20:06] Nick change: Boggle -> Guest55422
[20:06] <Upu> I'm not entirely sure the timing is right I'll redo the code to use interupts tomorrow
[20:06] <eroomde> is that thinner than 1.6mm Upu?
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[20:07] <craag> hackvana has been recommending 0.8mm for hab stuff
[20:09] <Upu> 0.8,,
[20:09] <Upu> 0.8mm
[20:10] <Upu> Most of my stuff is 0.8mm
[20:11] <Upu> the breakouts and stuff are 1.6mm
[20:11] <Upu> should look like this rharrison http://i.imgur.com/Dhd8xc8.jpg
[20:13] <eroomde> cool
[20:13] <eroomde> it did look less
[20:14] <eroomde> i like oit not so much for weight but more because making 50-ohm microstrips is less annoying
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[20:16] <Laurenceb__> eroomde: http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/doc/interpreter/Linear-Least-Squares.html
[20:16] <Laurenceb__> does the gls explanation make any sense to you?
[20:16] <Laurenceb__> cov (vec (e)) = (s^2) o <- wtf
[20:16] <Laurenceb__> s is an output, o is an input
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, btw why do you have the sine table in the habdunio's software?
[20:18] <Upu> for APRS
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[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:22] <eroomde> ok Laurenceb__
[20:22] <eroomde> i did have doggon read it
[20:23] <eroomde> so
[20:23] <Laurenceb__> in other news, i may have inadvertantly solved my overall problem - it could be that feasible generalized least squares does both absorber fitting and weighting in one algorithm
[20:23] <Laurenceb__> but i need to read more about it :P
[20:23] <eroomde> s is a scalar
[20:23] <Laurenceb__> oh
[20:23] <eroomde> s^2 * o is your covarience matrix
[20:23] <eroomde> you have to supplo o as an argument
[20:23] <Laurenceb__> yeah i should actuallt run some test cases
[20:23] <eroomde> so i think it's saying
[20:24] <eroomde> you have to supply a stab at the structure of the covarience matrix
[20:24] <eroomde> i.e., how correlated are the noise parameters
[20:24] <eroomde> eg the varience matrix could be perfectly diagonal
[20:24] <eroomde> or your could have cross-corelation terms
[20:24] <Laurenceb__> well i have an estimated covar matrix from my first step
[20:24] <Laurenceb__> this is for the second step
[20:24] <Laurenceb__> and its diagonal, so i have WLS
[20:25] <Laurenceb__> but i want to estimate the error in my second stage fit
[20:25] <Laurenceb__> where i fit a linear absorber shift
[20:25] <eroomde> so i would assume o wants to be some normalised matrix for the covarience, perhaps base on prior knowledge as to whether the elements in the vecotrs are independant or ahetever
[20:25] <eroomde> and s^2 will give you the noise power
[20:26] <eroomde> well, it returns r
[20:26] <eroomde> the residuals
[20:26] <Laurenceb__> but im confused, as in my case i know cov(vec(e))
[20:26] <Laurenceb__> i want to solve for o
[20:26] <eroomde> well try it, and see if v = 1
[20:26] <eroomde> or close to 1
[20:26] <Laurenceb__> as o is the covar of my linear fit?
[20:26] <Laurenceb__> ok
[20:26] <eroomde> o is just cov(vec(e)) normalised so far as i can see
[20:26] <Laurenceb__> yeah ill finish writing my code :P
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[20:29] <cyclops> Afk
[20:31] <eroomde> i love having wallander on
[20:31] <eroomde> not watching
[20:31] <eroomde> just listening to the swedish
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> Harpo?
[20:31] <eroomde> don't understand it, it just sounds nice
[20:31] <Laurenceb__> eroomde: so can i calculate errors in x?
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> I like how Swedes are saying "yo" when inhaling
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> I didn't know that Harpo is from Sweden
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> I mean the guy who sang "Movie Star"
[20:32] <eroomde> Laurenceb__: with r
[20:32] <eroomde> the residual
[20:33] <eroomde> it looks like a vector of errors between the observation and the model for each point
[20:33] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[20:33] <eroomde> well, matrix
[20:33] <Laurenceb__> and?
[20:33] <eroomde> MSE?
[20:33] <Laurenceb__> oh i guess so
[20:34] <eroomde> that cost function is kinda up to you
[20:34] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[20:34] <Laurenceb__> theres got to be a statistically nice way to do this
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> GPS Ublox-6 datasheet quote: "On firmware 7.03, on/off operation is not available." ?!
[20:34] <eroomde> MSE is usually the best thing in the absense of an obvious laternative
[20:34] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[20:35] <eroomde> you could weight this distance/error in a gassian way rather than euclidean
[20:35] <eroomde> maybe
[20:36] <Laurenceb__> im just confused as to how there are statistics packages where i could throw this data in and get a nice error value out
[20:36] <Laurenceb__> im trying it from semi first principles and its all falling apart
[20:37] <eroomde> they assume
[20:37] <eroomde> assume guassian, assume rms
[20:37] <Laurenceb__> i see
[20:37] <eroomde> there isn't really a right answer
[20:37] <eroomde> or is there is it's very model-specific
[20:37] <Laurenceb__> i see
[20:37] <Laurenceb__> error: svd: cannot take SVD of matrix containing Inf or NaN values
[20:38] <Laurenceb__> thats def wrong answer
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> i guess my second stage is pretty statistically valid
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> as the first stage gives an error value
[20:40] <Laurenceb__> http://pastebin.com/f6V7mQ5S
[20:41] <Laurenceb__> eww pastebin
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[20:56] <Laurenceb__> actually
[20:56] <Laurenceb__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_least_squares#Feasible_generalized_least_squares
[20:56] <Laurenceb__> seems to be exactly what i want
[20:57] <Laurenceb__> ill need to code the loop mayself, but no biggie
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[21:19] <Laurenceb__> http://24.media.tumblr.com/7e0e3639525c76d7f5511200226c3a90/tumblr_mfm6yuPWJG1qbfrc0o1_400.png
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[21:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> sounds like theres abit of tropo around tonight
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[21:22] <craag> Yep, reports of it on 6m down to Portugal in #dxspottv
[21:22] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hear english on 2m as well
[21:22] <craag> Oh nice :)
[21:23] <craag> Unfortunately I'm a little too far West to get you I think :(
[21:23] <OZ1SKY_Brian> trying to find out where the tropo is going
[21:24] <OZ1SKY_Brian> could be south uk, as dutch is also comming in, as well as germany, sweden and norway. tropo is strong tonight
[21:24] <craag> Time to plug the rig in then..
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[21:26] <fsphil> I predict I'll hear nothing :)
[21:26] <OZ1SKY_Brian> some uk repeater weak on 145.7625
[21:27] <craag> OZ1SKY_Brian: You on H or V?
[21:29] <OZ1SKY_Brian> only got V on 2m atm
[21:30] <OZ1SKY_Brian> beam is down for now
[21:30] <craag> Only got a colinear on V, not much chance of catching you!
[21:31] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hear something on 145.7625?
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> hey OZ1SKY_Brian
[21:32] <OZ1SKY_Brian> can´t make out the "dialekt"
[21:32] <craag> No not a chance from here really, I'm in a basin on the south coast.
[21:32] <OZ1SKY_Brian> sounds scottis to me
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> arko, if you are there, I just read the NASA news on the Curiosity SAM results
[21:33] <craag> I'm chatting to M0IKB nr Hull who is listening out though.
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> interesting work
[21:35] <fsphil> can't seem to hear anything on 2m
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: the atmospheric stuff?
[21:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> think the rep just typed gb3duj
[21:39] <fsphil> just the local beacons
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> http://www.gb3du.co.uk/ there it is
[21:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> looks like up north
[21:40] <fsphil> scotland
[21:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> just south of Edinburgh
[21:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes
[21:41] <fsphil> I'm probably too far west for you to hear me
[21:41] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes i would think so
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> OZ1SKY_Brian, how's life?
[21:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Hi Lunar, fine here, u?
[21:44] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 2M station over a rep in sweden now. pretty good
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> me too, thanks
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[21:55] <Laurenceb__> eroomde: yeah fgls seems to be what i want
[21:56] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[21:56] <Willdude123> I finally flew a HAB.
[21:56] <Willdude123> In KSP.
[21:56] <Willdude123> :)
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> cool, they have balloons now as well?
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> Did it explode in amusing ways?
[21:59] <mfa298> Willdude123: you probably missed what I said earlier about serial. In case you did:
[21:59] <mfa298> Willdude123: reading the scrollback, have a look at the serial settings in putty (or hyperterminal) and in particular Flow control - for testing it's probably worth setting that to None (it's often default to something else which isn't always supported)
[21:59] <Willdude123> Lunar_Lander: It's a mod
[21:59] <Willdude123> mfa298: Oh hmm.
[22:00] <Willdude123> Interesting.
[22:00] <mfa298> It's something that's caught me (and I suspect others) out a few times
[22:00] <Willdude123> By the time I've rebooted, it will be bedtime.
[22:01] <mfa298> make a note on a piece of paper so you remember it to try out tomorrow :D
[22:01] <Willdude123> What flow control should I use?
[22:01] <mfa298> safest is to set it to none.
[22:01] <Willdude123> Hmm.
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[22:02] <mfa298> RTS/CTS and DTR/DSR require extra wires. Xon/Xoff requires extra signalling.
[22:02] <Willdude123> Is it $$PUBX or $PUBX
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[22:03] <Willdude123> Hyperterm has no flow control by default- doesn't work.
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[22:04] <mfa298> I'm pretty sure Hyperterminal will have a setting for flow control.
[22:04] <mfa298> it's not something I've used for years. putty is generally much better for serial
[22:04] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:04] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[22:05] <Willdude123> mfa298: It does, and it's off
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[22:16] <OZ1SKY_Brian> craag what loc are you in?
[22:17] <craag> OZ1SKY_Brian: Southampton, long way out of range.
[22:17] <craag> IO90HW
[22:18] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok just had a talk with pete in io81
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[22:19] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 2E0NEY
[22:19] <OZ1SKY_Brian> on 70cm ssb
[22:19] <Steve_2E0VET> any RPi experts here
[22:19] <craag> OZ1SKY_Brian: Oh that's good
[22:20] <mfa298> Steve_2E0VET: depends on what you need to know
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[22:20] <Steve_2E0VET> mfa298, got the camera working with a script i found but cannot remember where i got it from, but i want to save the images to the SD card, they seem to be lost once the power goes off
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[22:21] <mfa298> if they're being saved to the sd card they shouldn't disappear
[22:22] <Steve_2E0VET> when i put the sd card in my pc i cannot see the images
[22:22] <mfa298> is the PC windows ?
[22:22] <Steve_2E0VET> yes
[22:22] <Steve_2E0VET> i think i have just answered my own question
[22:22] <mfa298> in that case you're probably only seeing the small boot partition
[22:23] <fsphil> aye
[22:23] <mfa298> I suspect the drive you see in windows is around 50mb.
[22:23] <Steve_2E0VET> let me reboot pi and see if they are still there
[22:23] <fsphil> windows can't read ext* partitions without additional software
[22:24] <mfa298> you can get ext2 drivers for windows that should let you see the main partition but I've never got on well with the options out there (and they probably won't cope with the journals on the newer versions ext3 and ext4)
[22:24] <Willdude123> mfa298: I think I'll just use the soldering iron for it.
[22:24] <Willdude123> Tomorrow.
[22:24] <Steve_2E0VET> 1.1gb on 8gb card
[22:24] <Willdude123> And get it working on the BBB
[22:25] <mfa298> if the Pi is on the network then the easiest way to get the images off will be scp (download winscp for windows) and use that to login to the pi
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[22:25] <fsphil> winscp is quite good
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[22:26] <fsphil> plus it means you don't have to reboot and remove the sd card
[22:26] <mfa298> Willdude123: it's always worth trying to find out why something doesn't work although I can understand it's fraustrating when you cant make it work.
[22:26] <Steve_2E0VET> i tend to use filezilla
[22:26] <fsphil> does filezilla support ssh?
[22:27] <Steve_2E0VET> not sure
[22:27] <mfa298> I was about to ask the same (although I was also trying to ask google)
[22:27] <mfa298> looks like filezilla has sftp so might work with the pi
[22:28] <Steve_2E0VET> wil the pi run ok on 6v 4x1.5aa batteries
[22:28] <fsphil> sftp might just be ftp over ssl
[22:28] <Steve_2E0VET> cd /home
[22:28] <Steve_2E0VET> whoops
[22:28] <fsphil> wrong window
[22:28] <fsphil> :)
[22:28] <Steve_2E0VET> lol
[22:29] <fsphil> the model A will run of 6v
[22:29] <fsphil> but you can't use USB devices
[22:30] <mfa298> it listed sftp as ssh file transer. ftp over ssl was a seperate option. Although I've not tried sftp with newer ssh daemons, I tend to use scp or tar/rsync with ssh
[22:31] <Steve_2E0VET> i just wanted to see how many pictures i could take before the batrteries ran out
[22:31] <Steve_2E0VET> the reason i am not seeing the pictures is that the script is erroring and i dont know why
[22:35] <OZ1SKY_Brian> craag it just keeps going on, io70 readable on 70cm now
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[22:48] <fsphil> ssb? what frequency do they use for this?
[22:48] Action: fsphil checks 434mhz for rtty :)
[22:48] <OZ1SKY_Brian> fsphil lower part of 432
[22:49] <OZ1SKY_Brian> center of acticity 432.200
[22:49] <fsphil> checking that now
[22:49] <OZ1SKY_Brian> activity
[22:50] <OZ1SKY_Brian> errhh
[22:50] <OZ1SKY_Brian> its late, heh
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[22:51] <fsphil> nothing, but then the antenna is vertical
[23:07] <Steve_2E0VET> on the application to release it mentions a copy of 1:50000 landranger os map, any ideas where i can get that from
[23:08] <eroomde> streetmap.co.uk use 1:50000 at the right level of zoom
[23:08] <eroomde> the os maps, i mean
[23:08] <eroomde> or of course you can just buy the relevant map from a shop
[23:09] <Steve_2E0VET> it also asks for a full postal address, wtf its a field in the middle of nowhere
[23:09] <eroomde> they right level of zoom is where footpaths appear pink/red
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[23:35] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nasa.gov/content/kepler-mission-manager-update-recovery-begins/#.UeseN6wpj_4 - hmm
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> Alas, I doubt they'll manage.
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[00:00] --- Sun Jul 21 2013