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[00:06] <meatmanek> what's the favorite 2m antenna setup these days for APRS?
[00:06] <meatmanek> quarter wave antenna with quarter-wave ground plane?
[00:06] <meatmanek> also, can I build a ground plane out of carbon fiber tubes with thin wires run down the middle
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> CF is not better than plastic straws of a larger diameter
[00:09] <meatmanek> for 2m?
[00:09] <meatmanek> like.. pixie sticks?
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> Oops.
[00:09] <KT5TK_QRL> carbon fibers conduct RF to a certain degree. So you are building a shielded coax cable with carbon fiber tubes
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> you want the base to be 4m?
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> ih?
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> ish
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> j-pole may make more ene
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> sense
[00:12] <KT5TK_QRL> If you have enough space you may consider a double quad for 2m
[00:12] <meatmanek> double quad?
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> Oh - neat.
[00:12] <KT5TK_QRL> aka biquad
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> The J-pole antenna, also called the Zepp' antenna (short for Zeppelin), was first invented by the Germans for use in their lighter-than-air balloons
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> I never knew this
[00:16] <meatmanek> I'm going for lightest weight that'll give me reasonable performance on APRS (146mHz) at 300mW. We've used a half-wave groundplane and quarter-wave antenna in the past, which worked fine
[00:16] <arko> meatmanek: i used a center fed dipole twice
[00:16] <arko> worked great
[00:17] <arko> http://wiki.032.la/nsl/HABEXpico1
[00:17] <meatmanek> that might be easiest
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> groundplane eem pointless weight
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> you should be able to do a dipole for perhaps a gram.
[00:18] <arko> meatmanek: where you launching from?
[00:18] <meatmanek> arko somewhere near SF
[00:18] <arko> oh nice!
[00:18] <meatmanek> we're the ones who nearly dropped our balloon on I-5
[00:18] <arko> dude!!
[00:18] <arko> we were talking about you guys when we did the day trip to pick up our 3d printer from sac
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[00:19] <arko> legendary
[00:19] <arko> any idea where it's going?
[00:19] <arko> i can track!
[00:19] Action: arko is sad because no one launches from LA
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[04:44] <heathkid> launch over me arko
[04:44] <heathkid> I'll track
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[06:10] <arko> heathkid: where you at?
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[06:24] <eroomde> morning
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[07:13] <Guest97955> Received email: "[UKHAS] Re: Launch Saturday 13/07/2013 Brightwalton"
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[07:19] <LeoBodnar> morning gents
[07:19] <x-f> morning
[07:19] <number10> morning
[07:24] <LeoBodnar> ping UpuWork
[07:30] <UpuWork> morning leo
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[07:38] <LeoBodnar> morning UpuWork - I forgot the panel P/N you referenced yesterday.
[07:39] <UpuWork> I'm posting you three today
[07:39] <LeoBodnar> or dimensions / or any hint to find it on PF website. Cheers! Do you remember the dteails?
[07:40] <UpuWork> hang on
[07:41] <UpuWork> http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/oem-comparison-chart/
[07:41] <UpuWork> MP3-37
[07:41] <LeoBodnar> Thanks! Are they cuttable ?
[07:41] <UpuWork> don't think so
[07:41] <number10> I think my pico payload will be ok to fly again thinking of this friday possible - its 434.243MHz which is out of the way of brightwalton frequencies that daveake and UpuWork are using should it float
[07:42] <UpuWork> those frequencies are up for change number10, apart from 075 /650
[07:42] <LeoBodnar> OK, thanks for that, I am back to work now :)
[07:42] <LeoBodnar> It would be nice to have a table on Wiki where we can all book ourselves frequencies.
[07:43] <number10> UpuWork: when you say up for change - do you mean likely to change or just able to ?
[07:43] <LeoBodnar> And have no-go bands for repeaters, country-wide QRM, etc
[07:44] <UpuWork> ability to change
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[09:50] <G0TDJ_Steve> Quiet in here today...
[09:51] Action: mfa298 watches the tumbleweed go past
[09:52] <G0TDJ_Steve> "It was a hot day in the HAB desert...."
[09:52] <mfa298> presumably everyone is pretending to be working hard - or they're out enjoying the sunshine.
[09:52] <G0TDJ_Steve> Probably
[09:52] <SamSilver> .... noboby was up for much ....
[09:52] <fsphil> I *am* working hard... </honest face>
[09:52] <HixWork> http://goo.gl/bvPC4 there you go. an awesome image of cloud around the Canaries
[09:53] <G0TDJ_Steve> Where's that from HixWork ?
[09:53] <HixWork> I'm working very hard - trying to get the WWAN card to work with the ThinkPad
[09:53] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'm taking it easy, had a very heavy day yesterday
[09:53] <HixWork> G0TDJ_Steve, @astrokaren
[09:53] <fsphil> I'm arguing with a company who should know better, that uploading sensitive details via unencrypted FTP is a bad idea
[09:54] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good luck fsphil
[09:54] <mfa298> fsphil: that sounds like it could be a loosing battle
[09:54] <HixWork> whats their IP fsphil ;p
[09:54] <G0TDJ_Steve> HixWork: Must be amazing to have the opportunity to capture those images
[09:54] <fsphil> haha
[09:54] <fsphil> ...
[09:54] <fsphil> wait a minute
[09:54] <HixWork> G0TDJ_Steve, tell me about it
[09:54] <HixWork> no place like..... fsphil
[09:55] <mfa298> personally I prefer ::1
[09:55] <fsphil> there is a password... but that's being sent in the clear
[09:55] <fsphil> it's so silly
[09:55] <HixWork> I bought a Lenovo WWAN card after being told that HP ones would be blacklisted. Truns out the Lenovo one is blacklisted too. Grrrr!
[09:56] <fsphil> thinkpad's main weakness
[09:56] <fsphil> blacklisting PCI devices
[09:57] <HixWork> I wasw really stoked too. WWAN with integrated GPS. Chasecar dream
[09:57] <HixWork> costyn_, you about? https://twitter.com/AstroKarenN/status/353927069912141824/photo/1
[10:01] <HixWork> Oh wow!!! Peru Chile and Bolivia just after sunrise http://goo.gl/UQcx9
[10:01] <HixWork> I'll stop now
[10:02] <x-f> heh, overead that as @astrokraken (was looking at the Kraken data earlier)
[10:03] <mfa298> x-f: I read it in the same way as you
[10:06] <HixWork> heh
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[10:19] <G0TDJ_Steve> BBS
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[10:39] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
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[10:46] <fsphil> so, any hosepipe bans yet?
[10:46] <fsphil> it's been sunny for a few days, that's usually enough
[10:48] Nick change: qyx__ -> qyx_
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[10:52] <mfa298> apparently the odds of having a hosepipe ban have been halved so the book makers seem to think there could be one http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/news_story.asp?id=198859
[10:53] <fsphil> people bet on this kind of thing?
[10:53] <mfa298> seems like it
[10:54] <mfa298> looks like you can also bet on the temperature reaching 100F
[10:55] <fsphil> do they take bets for that in shillings?
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[10:57] Action: mfa298 wonders how they'd cope if I asked to put a bet on the temperature reaching 200 and then claimed on it as it's over 200K
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> mfa298: They would refer to Arkhall vs Pressdram
[10:59] <fsphil> hehe
[10:59] <SpeedEvil> Arkell's Legal Team: Our clients attitude to damages will be governed by the nature of your reply.
[10:59] <SpeedEvil> Pressdram's Legal Team: We acknowledge your letter of 29th April referring to Mr J. Arkell. We note that Mr Arkell's attitude to damages will be governed by the nature of our reply and would therefore be grateful if you would inform us what his attitude to damages would be, were he to learn that the nature of our reply is as follows: fuck off.
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[11:04] <ikarus> people bet on ANYTHING in the UK
[11:04] <mattbrejza> i bet you they dont
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[11:26] <eroomde> in ed's world, bipolar transistors don't need pulling resistors because they need actual man current through their jacksie to do anything
[11:26] <eroomde> well, this is wrong
[11:27] <eroomde> i just had a circuit floating around because the bipolars picked up enough current from the 50Hz ringmain in the room
[11:27] <eroomde> DO NOT LIKE
[11:27] <mattbrejza> ha
[11:28] <mattbrejza> get transistors with less gain?
[11:31] <SpeedEvil> 2n3055
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[11:53] <Herman-PB0AHX> hello to all
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[11:58] <eroomde> greetings Herman-PB0AHX
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[12:18] <Herman-PB0AHX> is already known that for next weekend or there is something in the air is
[12:22] <Guest97955> Received email: Matt "[UKHAS] LAUNCH ANNOUNCEMENT - MONTY-1 CHARITY FLIGHT, 21ST JULY"
[12:22] <Herman-PB0AHX> ok tnx
[12:23] <x-f> :)
[12:23] <mfa298> Herman-PB0AHX: I believe one has been announced for Saturday (one balloon with several payloads) and there's been some discussion of another one on friday
[12:24] <x-f> Herman-PB0AHX, yes, next Saturday Upu and daveake might be launching four payloads under one balloon, you'll get the usual radio, SSDV, livestream from the launch site
[12:24] <x-f> usual RTTY telemetry*
[12:25] <x-f> and you should join the UKHAS mailing list, launches are announced there - http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas
[12:26] <mfa298> there's also the calendar feed but I don't think that's been updated recently
[12:26] <mattbrejza> its always updated, but it depends on people making the flight doc
[12:30] <Herman-PB0AHX> tnx all for information now i can look
[12:35] <Willdude123> Hi
[12:36] <chrisstubbsW> happy burdfay will
[12:36] <chrisstubbsW> *birthday
[12:36] <Willdude123> Thanks.
[12:38] <Willdude123> It's a shame codeacademy doesn't do CX.
[12:38] <Willdude123> *C
[12:38] <Willdude123> One I have my tracker working, will I need to design a PCB version?
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[12:39] <chrisstubbsW> Willdude123 you could do, or make a stripboard sheild like mark and may other people have done
[12:39] <chrisstubbsW> lunar too
[12:40] <Willdude123> So is what effectively happens that you build a arduino on the board, which has the right connections.
[12:40] <mfa298> Willdude123: if you want an online course for C there is http://c.learncodethehardway.org/
[12:40] <Willdude123> ?
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[12:40] <chrisstubbsW> Willdude123 You can either design a sheild that drops right on top of the actual arduino, or pull the chip out and solder that to the board
[12:40] <Willdude123> mfa298: A name like learn c the hard way makes me think it's designed to make it as confusing as possible.
[12:41] <chrisstubbsW> with the latter you will need a crystal, some capacitors and a resistor (miniumum(
[12:41] <mfa298> stripboard/veroboard is the easier version to go for rather than designing a full PCB. They work in a similar way to breadboard but soldered instead of pushing components in.
[12:41] <Babs__> Willdude123 - I built a shield to drop onto the arduino. Downside: a little heavier. Upside: you don't knacker the arduino if, like me, its all a bit experimental.
[12:42] <Willdude123> Oh it;s $30 for that course.
[12:42] <Babs__> i mean potentially knacker
[12:42] <mfa298> C the Hard Way is similar to Python the Hard Way which is supposed to be a good tutorial. I think the hard bit is you end up doing a lot of typing - you're supposed to type all the code in not copy and paste
[12:42] <Brace> I really like Python the Hard Way
[12:42] <mfa298> C the hard way is all online you can buy the book for $30 but you don't have to.
[12:43] <Brace> can be a bit monotonous, but it really hammers things home in a way that a lot of other books/tutorials don't
[12:43] <Willdude123> Oh right so the tutorials etc cost money, but the book doesn't?
[12:44] <mfa298> I started looking through C the hard way and have found there are things I don't know that it teaches (valgrind), now I just need some time to sit down and work through it.
[12:44] <Brace> the HTML is free - http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/
[12:44] <Brace> the Videos and PDFs cost $29
[12:46] <Brace> I worked through the Python course and came out with a basic understanding of Python, I can imagine if you do the same with the C one, you'll learn a lot
[12:46] <mfa298> their cli one looks like it could be useful for linux beginners as well
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[12:52] <eroomde> valgrind is great
[12:52] <eroomde> and/or frustrating
[12:52] <eroomde> the C course is quite serious
[12:53] <eroomde> you end up doing proper linux systems programming
[12:53] <eroomde> and covers all the important data structures and algorithms
[12:53] <eroomde> some of the*
[12:53] <eroomde> it's a very good book
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[12:54] <mfa298> certainly of the first few chapters I looked at in it it seemed to be a good course.
[12:54] <eroomde> it goes beyond what you need for embedded
[12:54] <eroomde> or even waht you should use for embedded according to lots of safety critical stuff
[12:54] <eroomde> eg callback functions
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[12:56] <mfa298> I was naughty, I only skimmed the first few chapters - but I've been using makefiles for enough years already.
[12:57] <mfa298> I need to do the valgrind one and then see what else it covers
[12:57] <eroomde> has little to offer for embedded
[12:57] <eroomde> but super great for pc stuff
[12:58] <eroomde> as it's basically about catching problems caused by dynamic memory alocation
[12:58] <fsphil> callback functions are both useful and evil. usevil
[12:59] <eroomde> evful
[12:59] <eroomde> they do let a lot of not neat things become very neat
[12:59] <eroomde> but i guess death-by-case-statements is at least easier for a static analyser
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[13:12] <x-f> Geoff-G8DHE, ping
[13:13] Nick change: G0TDJ_Steve -> G0TDJ_AFK
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[14:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> Hi
[14:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> x-f
[14:08] <x-f> Geoff, hi, could you make an object movie for LAASE, please?
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[14:09] <x-f> it was last Saturday
[14:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup no problem, just churning out a few landscapes at the moment, so give me an hour and I'll have it done for you! Yes I just checked I still had the XML tohand, normally store it in the folder once saved!
[14:10] <x-f> there is no rush, thanks :)
[14:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> No problem
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[14:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> x-f, Do you have the co-ords of the actual landing position ? The last data logged was at 12:28:35 @ 389m
[14:19] <x-f> Geoff-G8DHE, 57.24083, 25.12289, 121m
[14:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> Great I can extend the plot down to that great.
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[14:38] Action: HixWork appears to have a functioning GPRS/GPS Mini PCI in the ThinkPad. ChaseCentral :D
[14:40] <fsphil> how'd you manage it?
[14:42] <HixWork> blood sweat and tear fsphil blood sweat and tears
[14:43] <HixWork> plus, mydigitallife BIOS overwrite and sourcing new drivers. If you need to d oit let me know. I'm now well versed
[14:45] <fsphil> possibly soon. my thinkpad is really showing its age now
[14:45] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:45] <fsphil> is there a thinkpad with a daylight readable screen?
[14:47] Action: Laurenceb has a lenovo "thinkpad" :(
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[14:48] <fsphil> mine has lenovo written on it, but it was before they lenovo'ed it
[14:49] <Laurenceb> mine is starting to fall apart where they used double sided tape assembly
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[14:49] <Laurenceb> so its after that point
[14:51] <HixWork> my X201 is pretty well built. I like the X series
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[14:51] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/okNbCT5.png <- attn mattbrejza
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[14:52] <mattbrejza> ah :)
[14:52] <Laurenceb> our crappy coding schemes are going to be around 10% or lower
[14:53] <Laurenceb> interestingly at the shannon limit RTTY is ok
[14:53] <mattbrejza> yea no FEC isnt gonna help
[14:53] <Laurenceb> you just need to avoid n-PSK/QAM
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[14:53] <fsphil> FEC will guard against interference
[14:54] <Laurenceb> but where we are RTTY ->MFSK takes you right up that ramp
[14:54] <mattbrejza> assuming same model as yday? (ie no sky glow?)
[14:54] <Laurenceb> >25dB improvement
[14:54] <Laurenceb> well - 300K +4dB environment
[14:55] <mattbrejza> has that graph just come from shannon then?
[14:55] <Laurenceb> id imagine 50baud rtty to dominoex with FEC would be ~30dB improvement
[14:55] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:55] <Laurenceb> shannon in gnuplot
[14:56] <Laurenceb> assuming you want 50bps throughput
[14:56] <Laurenceb> and solving things "in reverse"
[14:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> x-f, Object Movie up there and a cleaner KMZ file, I'll do a Pano as well in a little bit from the burst point.
[14:57] <mattbrejza> so then its just a case of how would you use all that extra BW to improve 50 baud - FEC, trellis coded modulation etc
[14:57] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:58] <Laurenceb> in theory using RTTY with a really high baud rate then accepting a huge error rate with a ton of FEC would work well
[14:58] <Laurenceb> but bandwidth wasteful modes like MFSK are an easier route perhaps
[14:58] <mattbrejza> btw fsphil FEC will help massively in AWGN channel too, not just one with some man-made or similar interference
[14:58] <Laurenceb> they do basically the same thing
[14:58] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:00] <mattbrejza> by MFSK do you mean a particular mode with a silly name
[15:02] <mattbrejza> i wonder how good performance you could get with 3kHz BW 50bd, but i wonder how you would do detection on a FSK scheme that is sitting just below the noise floor
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[15:16] <Laurenceb> mattbrejza: yeah mfsk-64 or whatever
[15:16] <Laurenceb> ive run mfsk-64 before
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[15:17] <mattbrejza> is there any decent info on mfsk-64/domex etc anywhere?
[15:18] <Laurenceb> not really, i struggled a lot
[15:18] <Laurenceb> http://ukhas.org.uk/code:radio
[15:18] <Laurenceb> theres my code there
[15:18] <mattbrejza> tahts a 'no' if you have to link to code :P
[15:18] <Laurenceb> heh its more readable than fldigi source
[15:19] <mattbrejza> hmm MFSK64 doesnt actually use 64 carriers
[15:19] <mattbrejza> wtf naming
[15:19] <eroomde> domex is easy enough
[15:19] <eroomde> there's some explicative web pages
[15:20] <eroomde> and when we did it we just lifted the source from fldigi
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[15:20] <eroomde> and rewrote the 'write' functions to contral a DAC or whatever
[15:20] <eroomde> but the message construction thing you can just lift wholesale
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[15:20] <eroomde> took about 30 mins
[15:21] <mattbrejza> i shall have to find these webpages
[15:21] <mattbrejza> cba with code
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[15:22] <mattbrejza> hmm i wonder how you do bit sync (properly) with mfsk
[15:26] <Laurenceb> some kind of DLL
[15:26] <Laurenceb> correlating thingy
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[15:41] <PaulCDR> Afternoon all
[15:42] <PaulCDR> is anyone free for a quick chat about the ntx2 and getting the shift right?
[15:42] <HixWork> HI PaulCDR
[15:42] <PaulCDR> Hey
[15:43] <PaulCDR> how are you?
[15:43] <HixWork> are you talking about trimming the shift or getting it near
[15:43] <HixWork> i'm fine ta. you?
[15:43] <PaulCDR> grand thanks,
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[15:44] <PaulCDR> just getting it near would be good, i use the basic setup as described
[15:44] <HixWork> have you followed the tut on the wiki?
[15:44] <HixWork> indeed have you seen the wiki?
[15:44] <HixWork> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[15:45] <PaulCDR> yeah, using the wiki, using 2 4.7k and a 20k, i get an 800hz shift
[15:45] <PaulCDR> yeah, thats the one i followed
[15:45] <HixWork> try swapping the 20K for higher
[15:46] <HixWork> 47K listed in the tut
[15:47] <PaulCDR> i have just noticed that it says 47k, the one i followed said 20k,
[15:48] <PaulCDR> emmmm, thats obviously the problem then. well spotted hix,
[15:48] <HixWork> nps
[15:48] <chrisstubbs> PaulCDR, I think the tut was updated recently as someone spotted the error
[15:48] <HixWork> simple fixes are good :)
[15:49] <PaulCDR> so less current coming from the gpio gives a smaller shift
[15:49] <HixWork> Last modified: 2013/05/21 15:50 by upu
[15:49] <chrisstubbs> :O was it that long ago?
[15:49] <HixWork> Its the voltage divider that controls it
[15:50] <PaulCDR> there we go, your right, the simple ones are the best ones
[15:50] <chrisstubbs> http://ukhas.org.uk/_detail/guides:ntx2_divider.jpg gives a nice illustration of how the divider works
[15:50] <HixWork> PaulCDR, http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/guides:ntx2_divider.jpg?cache=&w=507&h=699
[15:50] <HixWork> ^^ heh
[15:51] <PaulCDR> i got a pcb made up and im surface mounting the components, i only ordered 20k and 4.7k res, back to the piggy bank then
[15:52] <HixWork> 0805s?
[15:52] <SpeedEvil> Just add two 20K and a 4k7 in series
[15:53] <PaulCDR> yeah, 0805's, fiddley we gits
[15:53] <PaulCDR> good idea speed, but board is already made up
[15:54] <HixWork> SpeedEvil, beat me to it, just patch it with ahtiny bit of wire
[15:54] <zyp> 0805 is huge :p
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> HixWork: No!
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> HixWork: Stonehenge it.
[15:54] <HixWork> heh
[15:54] <HixWork> getting them to tombstone is easy enough i spose
[15:55] <PaulCDR> 0805 is not huge for me, i hadnt lifted a soldering iron from i left school
[15:55] <zyp> I prefer 0603 myself, I've done 0402, and I'd rather not touch 0201 or smaller :p
[15:55] <mattbrejza> its all about having the right tools tbh
[15:56] <zyp> tombstoning is the reason I don't like 0402, otherwise I can handle them fine
[15:56] <PaulCDR> so is 0402 half the size of 0805?#
[15:56] <zyp> half the width and half the length
[15:56] <zyp> actually, 2/5 the width
[15:57] <mattbrejza> and thinner
[15:57] <PaulCDR> fair play to you, but i suppose practice makes perfect
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[15:57] <zyp> it's not a problem with good tweezers, but I'd rather not spend time reworking tombstones after reflow
[15:57] <zyp> I haven't had problems with 0603 tombstoning
[15:57] <mattbrejza> tweezer iron ftw
[15:58] <PaulCDR> so tombstoneing, 2 up on their ends and one across the top??
[15:58] <zyp> those are good for desoldering, not so useful for soldering
[15:58] <mattbrejza> really? i put solder on the two pads, then use the tweezer iron to pick up the device and place it down
[15:58] <mattbrejza> easy
[15:58] <zyp> PaulCDR, tombstoning happens when the solder of one pad melts slightly before the other pad
[15:59] <zyp> surface tension then pulls the chip up on it's end on the pad that melted first
[15:59] <mattbrejza> (i do tend to solder by hand rather than paste)
[16:00] <mattbrejza> surely with a oven that preheats and follows the proper heat curve this is much less of an issue?
[16:00] <zyp> mattbrejza, I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm just saying the usefulness of being able to heat both sides simultaneously isn't so huge when you are soldering it down anyway
[16:01] <mattbrejza> well just my prefered method
[16:01] <mattbrejza> many ways of doing it
[16:01] <PaulCDR> soldering irons at 20 paces gents
[16:01] <zyp> also, I only have experiences with reflow in «proper» ovens
[16:01] <HixWork> its all hot air ;p
[16:02] <mattbrejza> yea same zyp
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[16:02] <mattbrejza> HixWork: try using hotair on a .5mm QFN w/ exposed pad. That ended badly. Although a hot plate to preheat really helps when you have to rework QFN
[16:03] Action: SpeedEvil keeps pondering making a laser soldering iron.
[16:03] <mattbrejza> how about a microwave version of hotair rework
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> That's not a good idea.
[16:04] <mattbrejza> works with food right? :P
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[16:04] <zyp> SpeedEvil, you can already get IR rework stations
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> zyp: yes - not quite the same.
[16:04] <HixWork> I'm still to attempt the DF12 connector, waiting for the paste and stencil to arrive. fingers crossed it'll work
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> I want to be able to do silly things.
[16:05] <PaulCDR> thanks for the advice guys, good old ebay, 47k x 100 = 99p
[16:05] <PaulCDR> use 1
[16:05] <mattbrejza> PaulCDR: on ebay for £8ish you can get a selection of 0805
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> zyp: For example, take a enamelled copper wire, and be able to solder it reliably to a BGA ball.
[16:05] <zyp> heh
[16:05] <mattbrejza> like 25 of resistors in the 1ohm-10Mohm range
[16:06] Action: SpeedEvil seconds mattbrejza's suggestion.
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> A resistor kit is a good first step.
[16:06] <mattbrejza> also caps
[16:06] Action: SpeedEvil wishes indutors were cheap
[16:06] <PaulCDR> i have a load of through hole res, only really getting the smd's for the boards
[16:07] <mattbrejza> shame you cant get for the same price a selection of those nice wire wound 0402 inductors
[16:08] <mattbrejza> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2300pcs-SMD-0805-0-10M-50value-Resistor-2-2pf-1uf-40value-Capacitor-Kit-Set-/110941312626?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d49e1672 PaulCDR
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> Inductors are considerably harder to spec as well.
[16:08] <mattbrejza> yea
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> There is rarely a nice 'what power will this melt at' on them.
[16:08] <mattbrejza> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMD-Resistor-Kit-177-values-5-SMT-Res-25pcs-strip-Total-4425pcs-of-SMD-RES-/321125170580?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&var=&hash=item4ac48d3d94
[16:09] <mattbrejza> etc
[16:09] <PaulCDR> thats good, well worth having at that price
[16:10] <PaulCDR> ill get back outside and finish off the rest of this tracker. cheers folks,
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[16:12] Nick change: G0TDJ_AFK -> G0TDJ_Steve
[16:12] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good evening folks
[16:12] <nigelvh> Morning to you.
[16:12] <G0TDJ_Steve> :-) nigelvh
[16:13] <G0TDJ_Steve> Is it morning where you are nigelvh ?
[16:13] <nigelvh> Yep. 9am. West coast of the US.
[16:13] <nigelvh> How's things on the other side of the ocean?
[16:13] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh, usual stuff. Way too much traffic out the window, hot (sun all day).
[16:14] <nigelvh> It's been pretty warm round these parts too. Nice day to ride my motorcycle though.
[16:14] <G0TDJ_Steve> What bike you got?
[16:14] <nigelvh> It's a Yamaha XT225
[16:14] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'll have a look...
[16:14] <nigelvh> It's a pretty small dual sport
[16:15] <iain_G4SGX> I'm just about to try solder the UBlox to the breakout board. Was always rubbish at surface mount and my eyes are worse now, might need a mag glass, we shall see. Can you still get tins of flux? Only ask cos I haven't seen any about.
[16:15] <G0TDJ_Steve> Neat looking job though
[16:15] <nigelvh> Small and light so I can pick it up/whatnot if I need to, but legal on the roads and enough to get around on anything short of the freeway.
[16:15] <G0TDJ_Steve> Cool. I don't ride or drive but I do appreciate a nice machine
[16:16] <nigelvh> That's a good attitude to have. All sorts of machines I can appreciate but never use.
[16:16] <nigelvh> iain_G4SGX, I'm sure you can, but I just use flux cored solder.
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[16:18] <G0TDJ_Steve> iain_G4SGX: I bought one of these on eBay: 858D+ 220V SMD Hot Air Rework Digital Station Works a treat
[16:19] <G0TDJ_Steve> Item No: 230970100871 but there's lots of them on there
[16:19] <HixWork> iain_G4SGX, it's a horrible beast, just use as little solder as you can get away with
[16:20] <chrisstubbs> Be careful not to bridge the pin to the metal case, thats not a good one!
[16:20] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hi chrisstubbs, yes, it's easily done.
[16:20] <chrisstubbs> Afternoon
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[16:20] <chrisstubbs> Oh yes I will dig those board files out for you
[16:20] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh cool, cheers Chris
[16:20] <HixWork> G0TDJ_Steve, I bought the same station form the same place, great for the money
[16:21] <G0TDJ_Steve> HixWork: Yeah, I was amazed how good it was for £40
[16:21] <G0TDJ_Steve> I've used it for other things like heat shrink sleeving too
[16:21] <HixWork> same as
[16:21] <G0TDJ_Steve> :-)
[16:22] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh GUYS, I'm not sure if all of you saw me post this the other day: 230970100871
[16:22] <G0TDJ_Steve> DOh
[16:22] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hang on
[16:22] <G0TDJ_Steve> http://g0tdj.com/PDF/payload_label.pdf
[16:22] <G0TDJ_Steve> That's better... It's auniversal (UK) HAB label
[16:23] <G0TDJ_Steve> If anyone wants one customised for region/country, let me know.
[16:23] <mattbrejza> its gonna have trouble taking over from the 'o balls, we forgot the contact details. Quick, someone get a marker pen'
[16:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> LOL
[16:24] <G0TDJ_Steve> It's intended to be folded, filled in and laminated before punching one of the holes and threading it on your payloads line
[16:25] <chrisstubbs> I like the line threading idea
[16:25] <chrisstubbs> Might make it stand out a bit more... not sure
[16:25] <G0TDJ_Steve> It will flutter fround a little in the wind
[16:25] <G0TDJ_Steve> Won't know until we try it.
[16:26] <chrisstubbs> Pretty multi purpose, would look just as good stuck to the box :)
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[16:27] <G0TDJ_Steve> Oh, and don't forget to use international format for phone numbers like +44(0)7990521419 In case your payload lands overseas
[16:27] <G0TDJ_Steve> True enough Chris
[16:27] <G0TDJ_Steve> I might look into getting some printed commercially
[16:27] <chrisstubbs> G0TDJ_Steve, http://chris-stubbs.co.uk/hab/eagle/CHEAPO3.zip
[16:28] <G0TDJ_Steve> Thanks chrisstubbs `
[16:28] <chrisstubbs> No worries, just going to walk up to the shops. laters!
[16:28] <G0TDJ_Steve> ROger
[16:29] Nick change: HixWork -> HixnotatWork
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[16:29] <G0TDJ_Steve> brb
[16:31] <arko> morning
[16:34] <mfa298> there's some great description on that Hot Air re-work station: "The air current may adjust, the amount of wind is formidable, and the wind is gentle"
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[16:35] <G0TDJ_Steve> LOL mfa298 That's perfect Engrish
[16:36] <mfa298> that description has some of the best engrish I've ever seen - that was just one small part of it.
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[16:39] <G0TDJ_Steve> Anyway guys. please feel free to use my label design or pass it on etc.
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[16:48] <nigelvh> Morning Arko
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[18:01] <G0TDJ_Steve> Lots of folks, not much chat. Is everyone busy?
[18:03] ibanezmatt13 (6d95061f@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[18:03] <ibanezmatt13> Good evening
[18:03] <mfa298> or out enjoying the sun
[18:03] <G0TDJ_Steve> HI ibanezmatt13
[18:03] <ibanezmatt13> I'm on the brink of sunburn
[18:04] <G0TDJ_Steve> I was earlier, well hot out
[18:04] <ibanezmatt13> It is
[18:04] <G0TDJ_Steve> I don't mind it being bright, but the heat gets to me
[18:04] <ibanezmatt13> I'm going on a Crosscountry train tomorrow. Never been on one before. The train's called a Voyager... Any good?
[18:05] <ibanezmatt13> Manchester to Winchester
[18:05] <G0TDJ_Steve> Not heard of that one
[18:05] <ibanezmatt13> It's high speed, gets to the south coast in 4 hours.
[18:06] <G0TDJ_Steve> New on me but I'm not much of a traveller
[18:06] <G0TDJ_Steve> Looks quite chunky: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7244/7173662185_90ee9dc6b7_z.jpg
[18:06] <ibanezmatt13> Ah right, I've only ever used local trains myself, never fast long distance ones.
[18:06] <mfa298> can't comment on the trains but the weather is nice and hot at the end of that journey (assuming it's the same 10 miles up the road from here)
[18:07] <G0TDJ_Steve> I've done the cross channel tunnel
[18:07] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298: cool
[18:07] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298: you heard of the GoodWood festival of speed?
[18:08] <mfa298> I've heard of it
[18:08] <G0TDJ_Steve> Well, it was quite boring. We had to stay with the coach mainly. Couldn't see anything out the window....
[18:08] <ibanezmatt13> I'm meeting my Dad in Winchester and we're staying overnight. He won tickets to drive around the track and do the famous hill climb before the event starts this weekend
[18:08] <mfa298> Voyager, doesn't look like a normal train: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070320211146/memoryalpha/en/images/9/9f/Intrepid_class_top_quarter_aft.jpg
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[18:09] <G0TDJ_Steve> LOL mfa298
[18:09] <ibanezmatt13> haha
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[18:11] <ibanezmatt13> ping Upu
[18:12] <Upu> hey ibanezmatt13
[18:12] <ibanezmatt13> Hi Upu.
[18:12] <ibanezmatt13> Nothing...
[18:12] <Upu> nope
[18:12] <Upu> be weeks if at all
[18:12] <ibanezmatt13> Why so long though?
[18:13] <Upu> Post Office, millions of undelivered each day probably
[18:13] <Upu> it will be on a pile
[18:13] <Upu> just assume its lost
[18:13] <Upu> and proceed onwards
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> The most vital component of my payload is lost with Royal Mail... damn
[18:13] <Upu> which bit ?
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> it's the stripboard with everything on it
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> regulator, NTX2, UBLOX
[18:14] <Upu> We have a Pi n Chips waiting for your
[18:14] <Upu> you
[18:14] <Upu> you'll need to sort the regulators out
[18:16] <mfa298> I think I had something that had a mishap in the post turn up a month or so after it was posted.
[18:16] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, just a bit frustrating that I spent so much time on it... Nothing I can do anyway really
[18:16] <Upu> I did say send it recorded :/
[18:16] <ibanezmatt13> :(
[18:17] <Upu> when are you away ?
[18:17] <ibanezmatt13> 19th July til the 29th
[18:17] <ibanezmatt13> 28th*
[18:18] <Upu> we'll sort it next tuesday
[18:19] <jarod> for dutchies: http://x264.nl/dump/tra1466-2013-07-09-oh-ja.mp3 :P
[18:20] <maze> schiphol?
[18:21] <ibanezmatt13> any aviation enthusiasts on here at all?
[18:21] Action: Upu points at jarod
[18:21] <ibanezmatt13> any aviation enthusiasts who fly aircraft (what I meant) :)
[18:22] <LeoBodnar> I have about 40 solo hours but never finished the licence :-\
[18:23] <ibanezmatt13> LeoBodnar: Good fun isn't it? :)
[18:24] <LeoBodnar> Ahm, yes. When everything is going according to plan.
[18:24] <ibanezmatt13> I made my first stall the other day, quite disconcerting
[18:25] <LeoBodnar> Where do you fly?
[18:25] <ibanezmatt13> Liverpool mainly
[18:25] <ibanezmatt13> UK
[18:25] <ibanezmatt13> With all the A319's and 737's
[18:25] <LeoBodnar> Good, keep practicing RT
[18:26] <arko> ibanezmatt13: that was the first thing my flight instructor did to me
[18:26] <ibanezmatt13> arko: lol. It's really bad but I suppose you get used to it
[18:26] <LeoBodnar> Any good stories yet?
[18:26] <arko> yeah, it was a quick and terrifying lesson on how to recover from one
[18:28] <ibanezmatt13> LeoBodnar: I succesfully completed my navigation lesson using good old VORs and NDBs
[18:28] <ibanezmatt13> Intercepting TO/FROM radials and using VOR triangulation. Pretty cool
[18:29] <LeoBodnar> Yes, instructors are usually impressed when you can read Morse ID :)
[18:29] <LeoBodnar> While they can't lol
[18:29] <ibanezmatt13> I don't have the patience to learn morse code :P
[18:29] <arko> my second hour he asked me to do large figure-8's and about 10 minutes into it he brought my engine to near stop and set off some alarm, then began yelling at me "you're engine died!! WHAT DO YOU DO!?" my response was "huh!? WHAT?! WHAT? HUH!?" and he kept yelling "AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE..AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE"
[18:30] <arko> meanwhile I'm freaking out
[18:30] <ibanezmatt13> haha
[18:30] <mfa298> learning morse code doesn't seem to be that bad as long as you find a good way to learn it.
[18:30] <arko> your*
[18:30] <ibanezmatt13> Mine did that too, but nowhere near that extreme arko :P
[18:30] <arko> yeah, lesson here is
[18:30] <arko> dont let your flight instructor friend teach you
[18:30] <arko> find some company where you dont know the people
[18:31] <arko> but man does that get your heart rate going
[18:31] <G0TDJ_Steve> mfa298: ibanezmatt13 There's one secret to learning Morse, you HAVE to practice at least 15mins EVERY DAY without fail
[18:31] <ibanezmatt13> I don't think I'd enjoy it or need it really to be honest. I think learning C is a big enough challenge :)
[18:31] <G0TDJ_Steve> Morse is easier....
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[18:32] <G0TDJ_Steve> You can learn the alphabet in a day, Numbers/procedurals another day. The hard bit is getting your speed up
[18:32] <arko> LeoBodnar: does the uk require at least 40 to get the lic? US is like that
[18:32] <ibanezmatt13> 45 isn't it? Not quite sure
[18:32] <LeoBodnar> I think 40 total and 20 solo
[18:32] <arko> oh cool, just like here
[18:33] <arko> i only did 10 then almost went broke :/
[18:33] <mfa298> G0TDJ_Steve: agreed, I started a few years ago with the software on http://www.justlearnmorsecode.com/ which worked well for me, it started with full speed but slightly longer gaps but only a few letters at a time.
[18:33] <LeoBodnar> I am a bit behind current curve
[18:33] <arko> heh
[18:33] <G0TDJ_Steve> mfa298: well done. Do you still use it though?
[18:33] <arko> i assume theres VFR and IFR too
[18:33] <LeoBodnar> I have picked up a few important lessons on the way which is good
[18:33] <arko> nice
[18:34] <mfa298> G0TDJ_Steve: I got about half way through the alphabet and then other things took over, I ought to get back into it - although getting some sort of HF antenna would also help so I could listen to real morse as well.
[18:35] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, that's essential, not just listening to machine Morse, it's TOO clinical
[18:35] <arko> IFR is some scary stuff, once flew in to san francisco and it became super foggy 10 mins before landing, the pilot was like "hand me that book, do this do that, blah blah" talking and flipping switchings
[18:35] <G0TDJ_Steve> I've taught many people Morse so if you need a hand let me know.
[18:35] <arko> we just rolled through the fog then bam, runway out of the fog, touchdown
[18:35] <arko> O_O
[18:35] <ibanezmatt13> Can't beat zero vis
[18:35] <arko> instrument landing is like... "this gauge better be right"
[18:35] <LeoBodnar> USA and UK (EU) licenses are pretty much lined up. Lots of folks go to the USA for a month, bore lots of holes in the skies, get FAA license, come back and convert it to EU one.
[18:36] <arko> oh no way
[18:36] <arko> thats awesome
[18:36] <ibanezmatt13> I think it's better with ILS instead of looking at your instruments.
[18:36] <ibanezmatt13> Not very skillful though
[18:36] <ibanezmatt13> even though ILS stands for instrument landing system :P
[18:37] <arko> hehe
[18:37] <LeoBodnar> On my first cross country solo I ended up landing after the sunset.
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[18:37] <MONTY__>
[18:37] <G0TDJ_Steve> ... or I@m Landing SOMEHOW!
[18:37] <arko> yikes, night landing
[18:37] <LeoBodnar> Illegal but beautiful.
[18:37] <arko> :)
[18:38] <LeoBodnar> I flew from Teesside International, near Upu
[18:38] <G0TDJ_Steve> Right... Dinner BBL
[18:38] <arko> heh, the two jokes i remember are "the plane will land no matter what, so dont worry" and "you shouldn't be afraid of the wings falling off, you should be afraid of falling off the wings"
[18:38] <LeoBodnar> almost
[18:38] Nick change: G0TDJ_Steve -> G0TDJ_AFK
[18:39] <arko> buzz Upu's house
[18:39] <arko> just as he's stacking cards to make a house
[18:40] <ibanezmatt13> gotta go to the shop, bbl :)
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[18:41] <MONTY__> Hey guys... Hope you all noticed the MONTY-1 launch announcement on the mailing list. I just want to say thanks to everyone who's put up with my newbie questions over the last 12 months! I usually appear as "guest" for that very reason,ha. Anyway, thanks and I hope som of you can help track on the 21st. Matt
[18:43] <MONTY__> I dont suppose any of you have used GoPros on your payload??....
[18:45] <mfa298> MONTY__: a few people have used them. I think the general advice is don't use the case or the anti fog strips
[18:45] <LazyLeopard> mfa298: You got further than me with Just Learn Morse Code, then...
[18:45] <MONTY__> very good! ...
[18:46] <MONTY__> Anyway
[18:46] <MONTY__> re the gopro. Mine gets incredibly hot after about 45mins.. is that normal?
[18:46] <MONTY__> like REALLY hot
[18:47] <mfa298> that doesn't sound too good - but I can't comment as I've never used one.
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[18:49] <MONTY__> as its cosy in the poly box that just makes it worse. My question is does it get really cold in the box at altitude and do you think that'll help cool it?
[18:49] <eroomde> it gets cold but that sort of doesn't mean much when the air density drops
[18:49] <eroomde> space is really cold
[18:49] <eroomde> but also really hot
[18:50] <eroomde> it all depends on you
[18:50] <eroomde> engineering via fortune-cookie
[18:50] <MONTY__> hmmm, Im worried about it
[18:50] <MONTY__> I guess I need to find someone whos actually launched them
[18:50] <eroomde> i think people fly them exposed often
[18:50] <eroomde> without too many issues
[18:50] <eroomde> but check with someone who's flown one recently
[18:50] <MONTY__> Ive ditched the case
[18:51] <MONTY__> but thye camera will be inside looking out
[18:51] <MONTY__> should I think about vents?
[18:51] <eroomde> it'll probably survive
[18:51] <MONTY__> Burst calc says I might make 37km.
[18:51] <daveake> I flew one (Hero 2) recently, and it was fine
[18:52] <eroomde> which hero do you have?
[18:52] <MONTY__> HD2
[18:52] <MONTY__> Did yours get warm Dave?
[18:52] <daveake> Dunno I wasn't up there with it :)
[18:52] <x-f> Geoff-G8DHE, thank you!
[18:52] <MONTY__> ; )
[18:53] <daveake> I don't recall anyone having problems with the Hero2 for HAB, except for the aforementioned issue with the case and those "anti-fog" strips
[18:53] <eroomde> i need a hero // i'm holding out for a hero till the end of the flight // he's gotta be strong // and he must record long // and he's gotta be fresh from the charger
[18:53] <MONTY__> I think Ill risk it then. It got so hot it cut out on me after 45mins on Saturday during a ground soak test - but then it was the hottest day of the year!
[18:54] <eroomde> i shall give a talk on high altitude photography in the style on bonnie tyler at the conference
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[18:54] <daveake> Through the wind and the chill and the rain?
[18:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> Haven't finished the Pano yet but it will be up later, had an alignment problem on another one that's causing some grief /
[18:55] <daveake> eroomde Hopefully not lost in France
[18:55] <MONTY__> Can I ask a newbie RTTY question now pls?...
[18:55] <daveake> Don't ask to ask just ask
[18:56] <MONTY__> ok...
[18:56] <MONTY__> Is there any advantage in keeping my RTTY sentence as short as possible?
[18:57] <daveake> Well you can then send more of them, but the only time that matters is when it come in to land - you're a bit more likely to get a slightly lower position
[18:57] <daveake> But really, just send whatever you want to send
[18:58] <daveake> Oh, and also a shorter sentence is less likely to get corrupted due to fading or local interference
[18:58] <daveake> I wouldn't lose sleep over it
[18:58] <MONTY__> My inexperienced logic says that the longer the string is, the more likely receivers are to miss bits and not parse full, correct sentences
[18:58] <daveake> Yes I said that :)
[18:58] <daveake> But we have so many listeners now it's not an issue
[18:58] <MONTY__> I know - i was half way through typing it
[18:59] <daveake> :)
[18:59] <MONTY__> : )
[18:59] <MONTY__> excellent
[18:59] <MONTY__> thanks guys
[18:59] <MONTY__> Can I rely on your listening services on 21st?
[19:01] <Upu> are you launching on the 21st ?
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[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:01] <daveake> That's over a week away. A week is a long time in HABitics
[19:02] <fsphil> it could be snowing by then
[19:02] <MONTY__> youve gone and said it now Phil!
[19:03] <MONTY__> but you make a good point
[19:03] <fsphil> was taking with a few people at work about how we could make snow
[19:03] <fsphil> it's not easy!
[19:03] <Upu> the answer is yes btw
[19:03] <Upu> just mail the list
[19:03] <Upu> and fill out a flight doc
[19:05] <chrisstubbs> Evening MONTY__
[19:05] <MONTY__> Hello Chris
[19:05] <chrisstubbs> Sent your flight doc for approval?
[19:06] <MONTY__> Yep. Just waiting to hear from Daniel
[19:06] <MONTY__> CHEAPO-5 is attached to the doc
[19:06] <chrisstubbs> Awesome :)
[19:06] <MONTY__> : 0
[19:07] <MONTY__> Just need to find someone with GoPro experience now to put my last concern to bed
[19:07] <mclane> Hi guys since I have seen the flight of LeoBodnar earlier this week I am interested in dominoex. I have seen in the wiki how to use the rfm22b for that, but is there a "better" way how to do it?
[19:08] <eroomde> you can use the rfm22b for domino?
[19:08] <eroomde> interesting
[19:08] <eroomde> mclane: anything with a vco on the input is probably the way to do it
[19:08] <eroomde> like the NTX2 if you have temp compensation or....
[19:08] <eroomde> [waits for upu to fill in the gap]
[19:08] <eroomde> ...
[19:09] <fsphil> too tricky to get the right frequency shift with the ntx2
[19:09] <Upu> LMT2
[19:09] <Upu> with a DAC
[19:09] <Upu> probably
[19:09] <mclane> with the rfm22b you apparently detune the oscillator with a varicap
[19:09] <eroomde> fsphil: not 'too' tricky
[19:09] <eroomde> because i did it
[19:09] <eroomde> just 'a bit' tricky
[19:10] <eroomde> had to pop it in the freezer and the oven and a few points in between
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[19:10] <ibanezmatt13> Abend
[19:10] <mclane> see http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:rfm22b
[19:10] <eroomde> and you can fit a 3d quadratic to absolute freq and relative freq vs time
[19:10] <eroomde> or just put the values in a little lookup table and interpolate
[19:11] <eroomde> you need a temp sensor on the ntx2 is all
[19:11] <Upu> or just use an LMT2 with a DAC
[19:11] <eroomde> or that
[19:11] <Upu> getting an NTX2 to do it is a bit like polishing a turd
[19:11] <fsphil> eroomde: I mean, the frequency shift can sometimes change during flights
[19:11] <eroomde> the ntx2 is fine, it's a lot more capacble than an rfm22b
[19:12] <eroomde> just the default xtal has a tempco
[19:12] <eroomde> that's it
[19:12] <mclane> the DAC is used to generate the right analog modulation voltage?
[19:12] <eroomde> fsphil: yes i know, hence 3d curve
[19:12] <eroomde> i.e. 2d lookup table
[19:12] <fsphil> hmm
[19:12] <fsphil> might try that
[19:13] <eroomde> so you get a bunch of freq vs voltage curves
[19:13] <eroomde> at different temps
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[19:13] <eroomde> and do a 2d interpolation between all the points you get off that
[19:13] <eroomde> worked like a charm
[19:14] <eroomde> and no microcontroller inside your radio or any other mad bollocks
[19:14] <fsphil> unless it's the microcontroller running the payload
[19:14] <Upu> the LMT2 has a PIC in it
[19:15] <eroomde> well yes, but the lmt2 also has a microcontroller built in
[19:15] <fsphil> aaaah interesting
[19:15] <eroomde> certainly eyebrow-raising
[19:15] <fsphil> is it locked down?
[19:16] <mclane> hw did leobodnar do it? He mentioned that he is using a Si4060 chip?
[19:16] <Upu> using an out of spec crystal on the SI chip
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[19:17] <Upu> means the step frequency is exactly what it needs to be for DominoEX16
[19:17] <Upu> can'd do other modes though
[19:17] <fsphil> though it would be no fun writing everything in pic assembly
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[19:17] <Upu> well apart from RTTY
[19:17] <Upu> I guess
[19:17] <nigelvh> I dunno how exacting dominoex16 requires the spacing to be, but I got WSPR to work with 2hz spacing rather than 1.46Hz.
[19:18] <nigelvh> Might give you some more room.
[19:18] <eroomde> iirc the jumps needed to be good to within about 5hz of spec
[19:18] <eroomde> but i don't really remember
[19:18] <fsphil> I found the jump from the highest frequency back to the lower ones caused me trouble
[19:18] <fsphil> the smaller steps worked fine
[19:18] <mattbrejza> could use the vc pin on a tcxo, not sure how temperature dependant that will be
[19:19] <eroomde> i couldn't get it good enough with a 10bit dac mapped directly to 0-3.3V, but it was ok when the range was compressed by a potential divider
[19:19] <nigelvh> I use a vcxo to generate APRS on FM, so temp doesn't affect too much.
[19:19] <eroomde> 12 bit dac fine
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[19:20] <mattbrejza> when you do xl pulling you can adjust the range by varing a cap value, but iguess that is similar to a potential divider
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[19:21] <Herman-PB0AHX> good evening to everyone from a very hot Delft in Netherlands
[19:22] <mclane> frequency step for dominoex16 is 15.625 Hz?
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[19:22] <nigelvh> +/- 5hz starting from a 15.625hz step seems a little large, but maybe.
[19:22] <eroomde> i might have misremembered
[19:22] <eroomde> this was 2008
[19:23] <Upu> 7.8125 or 10.76660156 or 15.625 or 21.53320313
[19:23] <fsphil> yea 15.625 for domex16
[19:23] <nigelvh> fsfphil could also have been having issues with the device taking a bit to lock onto the new frequency.
[19:23] <fsphil> I don't remember which one I tried
[19:23] <eroomde> maybe it was that the 10bit dac could only do 5hz which wasn't good enough
[19:23] <nigelvh> Which explains the smaller steps working but larger ones not.
[19:23] <fsphil> you mean the ntx2?
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[19:23] <fsphil> not changing frequency quickly enough?
[19:24] <fsphil> I was generating the signal with pwm, that's possible
[19:24] <nigelvh> Yeah, if it does something more like GFSK rather than FSK that might be an issue.
[19:24] <eroomde> fsphil: i mean the 10bit dac mapped directly onto the ntx2
[19:24] <nigelvh> And if you're doing pwm with a capacitor to filter, I could easily see it being somewhat smoothed.
[19:24] <eroomde> 0-3.3V
[19:24] <eroomde> i think
[19:25] <fsphil> yea the dac would probably work better
[19:25] <eroomde> but yeah,the LSB resolution in that case was too low
[19:25] <eroomde> but 12bit was fine
[19:25] <fsphil> in my attempt I had pwm via the usual resistor setup, into the ntx2 - using the ntx2's own low pass
[19:25] <eroomde> ah cool
[19:26] <eroomde> so just switching well above the 5khz (or whatever it is)
[19:26] <fsphil> yep
[19:26] <eroomde> nice
[19:26] <fsphil> I could decode most of it, just a bad character every string or two
[19:27] <fsphil> I think Upu had better luck with his setup
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[19:27] <eroomde> so i think i did oven @ about 40, ambient, fridge, and freezer
[19:27] <eroomde> 4 points
[19:27] <eroomde> and then swept the vin and measured Fo in each case
[19:27] <eroomde> at about 10 points
[19:27] <fsphil> temperature sensor on the ntx2's xtal?
[19:27] <eroomde> so that was a 40 point 2D LUT
[19:28] <eroomde> yep
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[19:28] <eroomde> well actually i think i just glued it to the can
[19:28] <eroomde> but seemed good enough
[19:28] <eroomde> xtal would be better tho i'm sure
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[19:28] <eroomde> i guess you can measure the carrier easily enough with a dongle
[19:29] <eroomde> if not i've a 0-600MHz freq counter i can lend you
[19:29] <fsphil> could hack fldigi to dump the frequency vs. temperature data in the signal
[19:29] <nigelvh> Everything is only as accurate as the reference
[19:30] <fsphil> would need to leave the RX station on for a while before
[19:30] <nigelvh> Though differential is fine
[19:30] <eroomde> you'd have to retune the radio though
[19:30] <eroomde> well i guess not for dongle
[19:30] <eroomde> tho yes, donly xtal is a bit wobbly
[19:30] <fsphil> fldigi can retune it automatically
[19:30] <eroomde> but i mean you'd go off the end of the 3khz bandpass
[19:30] <eroomde> yes indeed
[19:31] <fsphil> then re-run it with that data, and record the error
[19:31] <mclane> why should I use a lmt2 and a DAC if it works with the NTX (and a 12bit DAC)?
[19:31] <eroomde> the other reason i did this was not just for deomino, but for being able to get several habs on a single ntx2 freq
[19:31] <fsphil> it would likely be small enough not to need retuning
[19:31] <eroomde> as you'd got like 10KHz to play with
[19:31] <eroomde> and the modes only usually take up a few hundred hz, you should be able to get say 5 habs with the same module if they all have calibrated ntx2s
[19:32] <fsphil> it's useful for overnight tracking, as B-4 showed
[19:32] <nigelvh> Except for desense. Got a stronger signal will adjust the AGC and drown out the weaker signal.
[19:33] <eroomde> yes totally
[19:33] <eroomde> that will kill it completely
[19:33] <eroomde> you're quite right
[19:34] <eroomde> this was more for when we had 3 or 4 things Txing on the same payload
[19:34] <eroomde> eg with the esa drop vehicle
[19:34] <nigelvh> The RTL's probably wouldn't be as affected by it.
[19:34] <eroomde> or just multi-payload flights like in the bad days
[19:34] <nigelvh> And a multipayload flight might work in that case. Be an interesting thing to test.
[19:34] <fsphil> moar data
[19:35] <fsphil> without needing bigger antenna
[19:35] <fsphil> +a
[19:35] <eroomde> we saw some fascinating stuff with mutipayloads
[19:35] <eroomde> it's possible to egt the rigging very very wrong
[19:35] <eroomde> eg on UKHAS 1
[19:35] <eroomde> it was like a mental chaotic pendulum the whole way up
[19:35] <nigelvh> How was your rigging set up?
[19:35] <fsphil> the bottom payload probably had fun
[19:36] <eroomde> just payload-line-payload-line-payload-line etc
[19:36] <eroomde> i think we had 4 payloads
[19:36] <nigelvh> And how do you have it now?
[19:36] <fsphil> time for a UKHAS 3?
[19:36] <eroomde> but with the masses as they were and line lengths as they were, we obviously got it just right to be resonant
[19:36] <eroomde> well, not resonant
[19:36] <eroomde> chaotic
[19:36] <eroomde> the nonlinear resonance
[19:36] <eroomde> maybe we should call it ukhas 2
[19:36] <nigelvh> So just the lengths then.
[19:37] <eroomde> yes
[19:37] <fsphil> ah, I thought there had already been a ukhas 2
[19:37] <nigelvh> We do multipayload every year with about 8 payloads and it works alright, though we do get some complex pendulum effects.
[19:37] <nigelvh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYpZNT62eyc&hd=1
[19:37] <eroomde> fsphil: might have to send someone round to silence you
[19:37] <nigelvh> I'm the one running.
[19:38] <fsphil> how bad can it be
[19:38] Action: fsphil shuts up
[19:38] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4721830907/in/set-72157624203062811
[19:38] <eroomde> i'm the one in shorts
[19:38] <eroomde> that was nova18
[19:38] <eroomde> which flew v nicely
[19:39] <eroomde> 4 payloads again i think
[19:39] <eroomde> a nova, squirrel, an experiment from some kinds, and a pegasus
[19:40] <nigelvh> Those are much longer distances between payloads than we use.
[19:40] <eroomde> lovely launch nigelvh
[19:40] <eroomde> yes indeed
[19:40] <eroomde> i quite like long distances though
[19:40] <eroomde> just makes everything a bit more stable
[19:40] <nigelvh> Then again, most of our payloads don't have their own radios, so we have to tie them into the main telemetry sytstems.
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[19:41] <eroomde> also those parachutes are awesome
[19:41] <eroomde> if you want stable descent they're just the thing
[19:41] <eroomde> they're from aeroconn
[19:41] <eroomde> sec will find link
[19:41] <eroomde> http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/all-parachutes/72-inch-orange-parachute/
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[19:41] <eroomde> and inflated: http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/images/products/secondary/par72-3.jpg
[19:42] <eroomde> really beautiful
[19:42] <eroomde> not the greatest drag coefficient in the world but the absolute drag was plenty for this flight
[19:42] <eroomde> saw that one come down too, thanks to the chute
[19:42] <nigelvh> Interesting...
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[19:43] <eroomde> i'd use that 72" figure withna drag coefficient of about 0.4
[19:43] <eroomde> when doing sums
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[19:43] <eroomde> vs 0.7 for a more typical chute
[19:43] <nigelvh> Yeah.
[19:44] <eroomde> it's not such a pronounced affect on decent velocity tho as velocity is proportional to 1/root(Cd)
[19:44] <eroomde> so it's not such a hit
[19:44] <eroomde> and the stability is nice
[19:44] <nigelvh> Yeah.
[19:44] <eroomde> and they're really pretty
[19:44] <nigelvh> That too
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[19:45] <eroomde> http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/images/products/secondary/par72-1.jpg
[19:45] <eroomde> this is amazing
[19:45] <eroomde> so you get the fish hooked
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[19:45] <eroomde> then just attach a chute to the othe end
[19:45] <eroomde> and wait for it to die of exhaustion
[19:45] <eroomde> and then pick it up
[19:46] <eroomde> man i miss getting stuff from aeroconn
[19:46] <eroomde> there is so much random but awesome shit on their site
[19:47] <eroomde> how gucci is this? http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/all-parachutes/15-foot-x-form-parachute/
[19:48] Nick change: Chetich -> Chetic
[19:48] <eroomde> also peeps might want to consider these for cutdowns
[19:48] <eroomde> http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/launch-and-recovery-accessories/tender-descender/
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[19:48] <eroomde> machined some similar things for our rocket
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[19:51] <eroomde> http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/all-parachutes/60-inch-white-parachute/
[19:51] <eroomde> that carried the space teds
[19:52] <eroomde> http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/all-parachutes/73-inch-yellow-x-form-parachute/
[19:52] <eroomde> that was the backup emergency chute on the esa vehicle
[19:52] <eroomde> incase we had to deploy supersonically if the test chute failed
[19:53] <eroomde> 10kN (1 tonne) opening force. glad the poor thing never had to withstand that
[19:53] <eroomde> http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/all-parachutes/15-foot-parachute/
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[19:53] <eroomde> this was the predeployed chute for the esa vehicle just incase the entire vehicle died and it just went up to balloon burst
[19:54] <eroomde> i've given aeroconn quite a lot of money over the years, this is making me realise
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[19:55] <eroomde> this is like when old people get photo albums out
[19:55] <eroomde> somebody else say something
[19:55] <nigelvh> Haha
[19:55] <daveake> cup of tea dear?
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[19:56] <number10> I remember him when he was a young lad... with shorts and flip flops
[19:56] <eroomde> but srsly look
[19:56] <eroomde> http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/all-parachutes/60-inch-white-parachute/
[19:56] <eroomde> $12!!
[19:56] <eroomde> for a sort of 2kg payload that'll be just the ticket
[19:56] <daveake> Yes number10 those were the days
[19:56] <daveake> s/were/are/
[19:56] <eroomde> i'll wear a 3 piece to the conf
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[19:59] <eroomde> um
[19:59] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4721966581/in/set-72157624203062811/lightbox/
[20:00] <eroomde> jonsowman: ping
[20:00] <eroomde> i have no recollection who that guy is
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[20:00] <eroomde> but i know who it looks like
[20:00] <eroomde> and that flight train did contain a bioprospecting experiment
[20:00] <eroomde> but this is way before the first ukhas conf when i think i met who that looks like
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[20:02] <eroomde> a picture to show people who ask how to attach string to payload boxes
[20:02] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4721984367/in/set-72157624203062811
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[20:04] <mfa298> I'm not sure you have enough knots on that :p
[20:05] <eroomde> i heard yo like knots
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[20:17] <Willdude123> Hi.
[20:17] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs: You got the photos?
[20:19] <Willdude123> That's what she said.
[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, with the bioprospecting experiment, do you mean the bacteria collector you can see in photo 2?
[20:20] <eroomde> link me to the photo
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> https://secure.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4721984367/in/set-72157624203062811
[20:21] <eroomde> yes
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> but that was bacteria collection, not that bioprospecting by the mailing list guy
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[20:23] <eroomde> no
[20:23] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, dam! should have reminded me while it was still light
[20:24] <chrisstubbs> I will go and try and take some now
[20:24] <Willdude123> thx
[20:24] <eroomde> bacteria collection is not a different thing to bioprospecting
[20:24] <eroomde> and it was not oliver behind that payload
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[20:24] <eroomde> 'behind' as in 'responsible for'
[20:24] <eroomde> however it does looks like oliver in the photo
[20:25] Nick change: MichaelC -> MichaelC|Sleep
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> but it is the prof from Cranfield?
[20:26] <arko> damn its netsplitty today
[20:26] <eroomde> why would you even know that?
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> well cranfield had a payload on ESA BEXUS
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> that is how I got in contact with them
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> and learned they have a 500 g payload
[20:26] <eroomde> wow small world
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:28] <eroomde> bbl
[20:28] <mfa298> arko: seems like freenode doesn't like you or jarod
[20:29] <mfa298> they seem to have had a few netsplitty days recently
[20:30] <Willdude123> What can I tell my friend who's a noob to linux to type into the terminal. I want something to mess everything up.
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> exit
[20:31] <Willdude123> That does nothing, surely?
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> closes terminal
[20:34] Nick change: G0TDJ_AFK -> G0TDJ_Steve
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[20:39] <chrisstubbs> Just had a swearing contest with the printer. It won
[20:40] <mfa298> they're good at doing that
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[20:42] <mfa298> welcome back arko
[20:43] <LeoBodnar> Hey mattbrejza are you here?
[20:46] <arko> heh
[20:46] <arko> netsplits
[20:46] <arko> ping
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> Are we on an island now? Or they are? XD
[20:49] <arko> no idea
[20:49] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, http://www.flickr.com/photos/68579973@N02/sets/72157632670675629/with/9248713725/
[20:50] <arko> neat, you can have brick homes
[20:50] <chrisstubbs> The antenna socket inside is a bit bodged. Will redo that one day
[20:50] <mfa298> eewww, SO239
[20:50] SP9UOB-Tom (~verox@matrix.verox.pl) joined #highaltitude.
[20:51] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening all
[20:51] <chrisstubbs> mfa298, yeah I will BNC it if I ever bring myself to redo it
[20:51] <chrisstubbs> right behind my desk out of the way now though
[20:52] <mfa298> N, BNC or SMA are the right options.
[20:52] <LeoBodnar> hi SP9UOB-Tom
[20:53] <SP9UOB-Tom> Well, it looks that we have 3 new HAB projects in Poland :-) COOL !
[20:53] <arko> nice
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> The more the merrier!
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[20:53] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: right! :-)
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> hello SP9UOB-Tom
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:59] <SP9UOB-Tom> Lunar_Lander: You were in Fridrishaffen ?
[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> no
[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> unfortunately not
[20:59] <Geoff-G8DHE> X-F, pANO IS AT http://360.g8dhe.net/default.php?1024
[20:59] <arko> mars 2020 info went public today btw http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/m2020/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1490
[21:00] <Lunar_Lander> x-f, did you fly btw?
[21:00] <Lunar_Lander> arko, awesome
[21:00] <SP9UOB-Tom> Lunar_Lander: pity. me neither
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[21:00] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> arko, where can one get that 154 page report mentioned?
[21:01] <arko> on that page
[21:01] <arko> "All Related Documents:
[21:01] <arko>
[21:01] <arko> Science Definition Team - July 2013 Report (ZIP)
[21:01] <arko> Science Definition Team - FAQ (PDF)
[21:01] <arko> "
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> ah thanks
[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> so Curiosity 2?
[21:03] <arko> yes
[21:03] <arko> new instruments
[21:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> Lunar_Lander, Do you mean did LAASE fly then yes, I think x-f would land with a bump ;-)
[21:04] <SP9UOB-Tom> x-f: recovered ?
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> cool to both
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> just 20 km drive?
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> that is disappointing
[21:04] <arko> first instrument that detects life directly since viking
[21:04] <arko> Signs of Life Detector (SOLID) has been developed to detect extant life in planetary bodies.
[21:04] <arko> um.. 20km is a lot
[21:04] <arko> but thats mission goal
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:04] <arko> it will likely go over that
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> Lunokhod 2 still has the world record
[21:04] <arko> meh
[21:05] <arko> Lunokhod didn't get much science
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:06] <Lunar_Lander> so if it scans for life
[21:06] <Lunar_Lander> let's name it Curiosity 2-Carl Sagan
[21:06] <arko> it's probably going to have some name like the rest
[21:07] <arko> Destiny or something like that
[21:07] <arko> they are going to be accepting names then picking
[21:07] <arko> some kid gets to pick
[21:07] <arko> this one eroomde would like "one of the exciting features imo is MEDLI+ having "Uplooking camera to observe parachute inflation (optional)""
[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> A5LMMRSNP
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> Atlas 5 Launched Mobile Mars Research Station Nuclear Powered
[21:08] <arko> heh
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:10] <arko> funny thing is Curiosity is still MSL to me
[21:10] <x-f> Geoff-G8DHE, thank you, very nice :)
[21:10] <x-f> Lunar_Lander, yes, we launched!
[21:10] <arko> and i think this will always be MARS2020 for me
[21:10] <x-f> SP9UOB-Tom, yes, we recovered!
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[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> arko, yeah
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> how is it doing btw?
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> CPU A back on again?
[21:12] <arko> 2020?
[21:12] <arko> oh
[21:12] <arko> curiosity
[21:12] <arko> fine
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:12] <arko> started a long drive today
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> to the world record?
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[21:12] <arko> sol 329 at the moment
[21:12] <arko> 6am so it's probably doing some streching
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:13] <arko> oddly enough.. it actually is
[21:13] <arko> they need to heat the motors before operating
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> I remember that the MER did like lower the cameras at dusk
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> at least in the computer animations
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> looked like it was going to sleep
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:13] <arko> dust
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:13] <arko> yeah
[21:13] <arko> it usually has it head down a lot
[21:14] <arko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oabcM9SOF-E
[21:14] <arko> like that
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> Johnny Number 5 could visit
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> *mars
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:16] <arko> i still want them to send two to keep each other company
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[21:16] <arko> do some expensive handshakes with the arms
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> like Atlas and P-Body?
[21:17] <arko> ya
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[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> if it does stretching, it is a bit like Penny
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:20] <SP9UOB-Tom> x-f: We have 600 km rx report from SP5MG :-)
[21:21] <arko> aw i must have netsplit when x-f was saying this
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> SP9UOB-Tom, news for the Berlin launch
[21:21] <arko> congrats dude :)
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> we will have the NTX2 .650 MHz on :)
[21:21] <x-f> thanks :)
[21:21] <SP9UOB-Tom> Lunar_Lander: when ?
[21:21] <x-f> SP9UOB-Tom, yes, i know, it was fantastic! :)
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> congrats x-f :)
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> SP9UOB-Tom, first week of august probably
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> not sure yet
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> also, the shift is 85 Hz, have to fix that up
[21:22] <SP9UOB-Tom> Lunar_Lander: 3-5 days before launch - please drop me an email
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> will do for sure
[21:22] <SP9UOB-Tom> Polish HAMS are very helpfull :-)
[21:23] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :)
[21:23] <x-f> indeed, SP5MG managed to receive a couple of strings noone here did :)
[21:24] <x-f> distributed listener ftw
[21:24] <SP9UOB-Tom> x-f: he has awesome antenna system
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[21:24] <x-f> SP9UOB-Tom, is it the same that is in his userpic?
[21:24] <SP9UOB-Tom> x-f: he does antenna systems for polish space agency
[21:24] <x-f> zomg
[21:25] <SP9UOB-Tom> x-f: http://www.qrz.com/db/SP5MG
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[21:26] <x-f> wow..
[21:26] Action: SpeedEvil tries to resist the comment 'there is a polish space agency' - based on the suspicion that it's larger than the british one.
[21:27] <SP9UOB-Tom> SpeedEvil: there is no polish space agency - i cant find correct word
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:27] <arko> wow thats a setup
[21:27] <SP9UOB-Tom> SpeedEvil: its called CBK - Centrum badan Kosmicznych - should translate like "Center of space exploring" or sth
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> Fun dishes.
[21:28] <SP9UOB-Tom> its part of Polish science academy - PAN - Polska Akademia Nauk
[21:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> they are working on Polish satellite: BRITE : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF1_G2R8Lwg
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[22:23] <G0TDJ_Steve> Well, time I was finding a pillow... Seeya guys!
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[22:23] <arko> l8r
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[00:00] --- Wed Jul 10 2013