highaltitude.log.20130708

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[05:15] <Upu_M0UPU> morning
[05:15] <Upu_M0UPU> did freq move ?
[05:16] <Upu_M0UPU> oh no out of range
[05:16] <Upu_M0UPU> nice
[05:25] LeoBodnar (5c116e74@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.17.110.116) joined #highaltitude.
[05:33] <arko> morning
[05:33] <Upu_M0UPU> morning
[05:33] <Upu_M0UPU> impressive LeoBodnar
[05:33] <LeoBodnar> morning!
[05:33] <LeoBodnar> Failed! XD drifted down
[05:33] <LeoBodnar> the freq
[05:33] <Upu_M0UPU> whats it on ?
[05:34] <arko> looks like the sun is warming it up
[05:34] <LeoBodnar> DRifted about 200Hz down
[05:34] <Upu_M0UPU> on nothing too bad
[05:34] <Upu_M0UPU> interesting max altitude
[05:34] <Upu_M0UPU> one hell of a thermal
[05:34] <LeoBodnar> I think I have messed up TCXO correction when I have changed the tx freq from 434.6000 to 434.500
[05:35] <LeoBodnar> Just woke up :)
[05:35] <LeoBodnar> I will fix freq drift for the next one :)
[05:35] <Upu_M0UPU> when is that this evening ? :)
[05:36] <arko> seriously awesome work LeoBodnar
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[05:36] <LeoBodnar> Upu_M0UPU: run out of balloons :) and GPSes
[05:36] <Upu_M0UPU> haha
[05:36] <LeoBodnar> cheers arko
[05:36] <Upu_M0UPU> so what time was this powered on ?
[05:36] <daveake> Morning still flying I see :)
[05:37] <Upu_M0UPU> yup still up
[05:37] <daveake> expected time till batteries give up?
[05:37] <LeoBodnar> Upu_M0UPU: could you get somebody to delete the entry number $$B-4,2204,224226,51.48074,-1.52408,44131,5,1.33,-15*4784 ?
[05:37] <daveake> I ask as I'm visiting a customer near where that's headed this morning
[05:38] <LeoBodnar> About 5-6 hours daveake
[05:38] <daveake> cool I'll be there before then
[05:38] <daveake> I shall take a radio
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[05:38] <LeoBodnar> cheers daveake
[05:38] <arko> how long is it expected to last?
[05:39] <daveake> LeoBodnar> About 5-6 hours daveake
[05:39] <LeoBodnar> I am receiving it in Northants on 1/4 wave GP and IC-R20 still
[05:39] <arko> ah crap
[05:39] <arko> im blind
[05:39] <arko> wow
[05:39] <LeoBodnar> doing Willdude123 daveake ?
[05:40] <LeoBodnar> :)
[05:40] <daveake> Actually it's Tiverton I'm going to, so a bit north of that path
[05:41] <LeoBodnar> Ah, OK. This balloon seems to have developed and affinity to you.
[05:41] <daveake> lol
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[05:43] <Upu_M0UPU> http://www.rtl-sdr.com/hackrf-decoding-pico-high-altitude-balloons-hab/
[05:43] <LeoBodnar> Upu_M0UPU: it would be really "useful" to overlay this information on top of the traker http://www.flightradar24.com/
[05:44] <Upu_M0UPU> it would
[05:44] <Upu_M0UPU> but probably best no
[05:44] <Upu_M0UPU> not
[05:44] <Upu_M0UPU> you'll just end up bricking it for an entire flight
[05:44] <LeoBodnar> Good plug for PICOs!
[05:45] <LeoBodnar> OK, no problem and it is easily workable on two screens
[05:45] <LeoBodnar> Need to go to work soon-ish
[05:47] <LeoBodnar> How high PICOs usually go to?
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[05:47] <Upu_M0UPU> not this high
[05:48] <LeoBodnar> Light payloads pay off :)
[05:48] <Upu_M0UPU> indeed
[05:49] <LeoBodnar> OK, shower and run. See you later! Is it possible to purge this 44km altitude entry?
[05:49] <Upu_M0UPU> I've asked
[05:49] <Upu_M0UPU> I don't know how to do it personally
[05:50] <LeoBodnar> Thanks Upu_M0UPU ! And thanks for helping to sort out issues at the launch time. I have been launching it alone so felt a bit handful.
[05:50] <Upu_M0UPU> nps
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[05:53] <arko> Upu_M0UPU: woah nice! someone used the hackrf :)
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[05:56] <Upu_M0UPU> morning jcoxon
[05:56] <Upu_M0UPU> light :)
[05:56] <Upu_M0UPU> afk work
[05:56] <jcoxon> morning
[05:56] <jcoxon> wow
[05:56] <jcoxon> good flight
[05:56] <jcoxon> no real change in alt with sunrise
[05:56] <jcoxon> thats interesting
[05:57] <jcoxon> (actually difficult to see on the map
[05:59] <arko> http://www.nuand.com/blog/product/bladerf-x40/
[05:59] <arko> hotness
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[06:07] <G0TDJ_Steve> Anyone about at this ungodly hour?
[06:07] <arko> yes
[06:07] <daveake> sadly yes
[06:08] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hi guys...
[06:08] <arko> heck im having a beer
[06:08] <G0TDJ_Steve> LOL
[06:08] <arko> cheers
[06:08] <G0TDJ_Steve> Enjoy
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[06:08] <G0TDJ_Steve> I need a cuppa
[06:08] <arko> i wonder if newcastle beer taste better in the uk
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[06:08] <arko> i shall investigate
[06:08] <G0TDJ_Steve> Of course arko
[06:08] <daveake> I want to orbit the earth so I'm always at beer-o-clock
[06:08] <G0TDJ_Steve> :D
[06:08] <arko> daveake: thats the dream
[06:09] <arko> and NASA actual goal
[06:09] <daveake> lol
[06:09] <arko> NASA's*
[06:09] <G0TDJ_Steve> He he
[06:09] <fz> e
[06:09] <G0TDJ_Steve> I see you're still tracking LeoBodnar's balloon daveake
[06:09] <daveake> yup
[06:09] <G0TDJ_Steve> Me too...
[06:10] <daveake> I just turned on the A/C and the FCD drifted by 150Hz. Still decoding.
[06:10] <G0TDJ_Steve> Yeah, I left the kit on all night and I spotted a slight drift. Corrceted now
[06:10] <G0TDJ_Steve> Unfortunately, I have to go out in 30mins
[06:10] <M0CJM_Neil> Morning all, cant believe its still going
[06:11] <G0TDJ_Steve> But I'll leave it decoding.
[06:11] <G0TDJ_Steve> Great isn't it M0CJM_Neil
[06:11] <daveake> I'm off out inside an hour, but as I'm going to Devon I shall take some tracking kit :)
[06:11] <M0CJM_Neil> Where is it now as spacenear.us is not refreshing for me for some reason
[06:11] <daveake> east of Yeovil
[06:11] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'm going the other way and where I'm going, I wouldn't be allowed, much as I'd like to
[06:11] <M0CJM_Neil> daveake where in Devon, just back from there yesterday
[06:11] <daveake> Tiverton
[06:12] <M0CJM_Neil> Ahh cool, i was south devon near Kingsbridge
[06:12] <G0TDJ_Steve> M0CJM_Neil: So it's on its wa to you
[06:12] <G0TDJ_Steve> sorry, can't type this early!
[06:12] <M0CJM_Neil> lol anyway I am off to work
[06:12] <M0CJM_Neil> will leave it running
[06:12] <G0TDJ_Steve> Gotta get the kettle on and sort myself out.
[06:12] <G0TDJ_Steve> catch you later Neil
[06:13] <M0CJM_Neil> bye
[06:13] <daveake> bb
[06:13] <daveake> kettle .. what a good idea ... brb
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[06:21] <LazyLeopard> Hmmm... Warmed up and rose a bit with the morning sun, but hasn't drifted far...
[06:22] <arko> yeah, i've been watching it on my second screen for the last few hours and i kept thinking it had frozen
[06:22] <arko> but the time stamp checked out
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[06:31] <G0TDJ_Steve> Damn, life gets in the way of fun...
[06:34] <G0TDJ_Steve> Right, I have to go in a tick. 73 for now guys. Catch up with you all soon. Leaving kit decoding B4.
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[06:37] <chrisstubbs> Morning LeoBodnar
[06:37] <LeoBodnar> Morning chrisstubbs
[06:37] <chrisstubbs> B-4 still going for it!
[06:37] <LeoBodnar> Yeah, battery will end soon though
[06:37] <chrisstubbs> radio was tuned in and still getting decodes when I left for work, think its out of range now :(
[06:38] <LeoBodnar> not a bad flight
[06:38] <chrisstubbs> Not bad at all!
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[06:38] <LeoBodnar> I still like yours from yesterday!
[06:38] <chrisstubbs> Haha yeah the ending was a good laugh
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[06:40] <LeoBodnar> What an eventful day for G0TDJ_Steve! Was it one of his first balloons tracking?
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[06:50] <chrisstubbs> I can only presume so
[06:50] <chrisstubbs> What voltage will B-4 cut off at?
[06:50] <eroomde> quite an emotional introduction to the hobby
[06:50] <Darkside> 0.8ish
[06:52] <Darkside> what happened?
[06:54] <daveake> landed near a major road in land and was picked up by a passer-by who was about tot ake it to the police station on account of it probably being a bomb, before Steve apprehended him
[06:54] <daveake> in London ^
[06:56] <jdtanner> Potential Darwin Award winner there
[06:56] <jdtanner> Thinks it is a bomb...picks it up
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[07:01] <Maxell> LOL
[07:01] <Maxell> It has wires and stuff and blinking LEDs
[07:01] <Maxell> "must be a bomb"
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[07:08] <Chetic> lol
[07:08] <Chetic> note to self: place an explanatory note
[07:09] <Darkside> 'NOT A BOMB'
[07:14] Nick change: GMT_afk -> GMT
[07:14] <GMT> morning all
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[07:16] <ibanezmatt13> Morning
[07:17] <ibanezmatt13> Still nothing UpuWork :\
[07:17] <Upu> nah it will be a while if at all, don't worry we'll sort something out
[07:17] <ibanezmatt13> Why should it take so long?
[07:18] <Chetic> lol Darkside that'd be hilarious to hear on the news
[07:19] <eroomde> Chetic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4721971075/in/set-72157624203062811
[07:22] <Chetic> hah, classy
[07:22] <GMT> quite stunned to be still receiving B-4
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[07:25] <Chetic> why is the antenna connector at the bottom of the antenna on those kinds of antennas?
[07:25] <monpjc> Good morning all - My name is Paul and I'm a electroincs design engineer. I'd like to ask a little about your projects if I can.?
[07:26] <Chetic> yes monpjc just ask (always on IRC)
[07:26] <monpjc> Hi Chetic, thanks...
[07:27] <Upu> fire away monpjc
[07:27] <monpjc> I'm starting up a project called EarthRover to build a mars rover type robot that will run for a year in a field untounched... This is aimed long term at education btw...
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[07:28] <eroomde> monpjc: fire away
[07:28] <monpjc> ... As we will not be sending our robot into space (lol) we would like to take on a ballon project to show what it like to come down to earth...
[07:28] <monpjc> anyway - so I'd like to know where I can look to get started on a project like this, ball part costs or if there are teams that I could apouch to help out?
[07:29] <Chetic> the typical balloon project payload weight is less than 1kg though isn't it?
[07:29] <monpjc> 1kg is fine - we will not be sending up the robot as its close to 50kg :o)
[07:30] <eroomde> sure but that's just because people put an arduino and radio and gps and old compact camera in a polystyrene box
[07:30] <eroomde> that doesn't mean balloon payloads have to weigh less than 1kg
[07:30] <monpjc> its just to show the idea - if you see what I mean
[07:30] <Chetic> yeah alright :)
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[07:30] <eroomde> monpjc: well the ukhas wiki is a good place to browse
[07:31] <eroomde> there is a lot of information on it, all quite haphazard to navigate
[07:31] <eroomde> but we spin that as being a voyage of whimsy and serendipitous discovery
[07:31] <eroomde> would you be looking to drop your rover in under parachute?
[07:31] <eroomde> (or skycrane even :p )
[07:32] <fsphil> goodness, B-4 is still flying
[07:33] <eroomde> monpjc: in the mean time, the general problem of a hab payload in its most basic form, which is what 90% of flights tend to do, it just being able to track the payload from the ground reliable, and know where it lands
[07:33] <monpjc> Nar - its way to heavy - its like we are making back stories to cover how you would go to anthoer plant. We are currently designing probes that would be sent, also a psudo satalite to act as a uplink. Idea is to make it feel like a distannt mission, but without doing it
[07:33] <eroomde> for that you need a gps receiver, a radio, and some form of microcontroller to glue the two together
[07:34] <monpjc> what radios do you use - what frequencies?
[07:34] <eroomde> we have established now easy and reliable components and techniques to use such that it's a pretty solved problem
[07:35] <eroomde> so (this is all on the wiki) we tend to use the license-free modules in the 70cm band
[07:35] <eroomde> so they're limited to 70mW and about 25kHz bandwidth
[07:35] <eroomde> the radiometrix NTX2 is very popular
[07:35] <eroomde> limited to 10mW sorry
[07:35] <eroomde> 70cm is the wavelength
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[07:36] <monpjc> ok - that good. I have a 443Mhz transcever pair already - ok thanks, I'll have a read of the wiki
[07:36] <eroomde> you need to ensure the transmission power is less than 10mW
[07:36] <eroomde> to be legal
[07:37] <eroomde> and also they're definitely not all created equally
[07:37] <eroomde> it relies a lot on the modulation scheme
[07:37] <fsphil> many of those modules struggle to work between rooms
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[07:45] <Maxell> B-4 still at 1.34 volts. Thats good stuff
[07:46] <fsphil> spacenear is taking ages to load this many points :)
[07:47] <Maxell> http://spacenear.us/tracker/?filter=B-4 helps :P
[07:47] <fsphil> not much, since B-4 is the one with all the points :)
[07:49] <Maxell> :P
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[07:52] <LeoBodnar> How can I have a payload with two types of telemetry - regular and non-essential one to stop bombarding the server with information?
[07:53] <LeoBodnar> Main can have just coordinates and non-essential voltages, status, etc
[07:55] <LeoBodnar> Create two virtual payloads? But the tracker would then show two separate balloons...
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[07:58] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[07:58] <fsphil> you can add more than one string type to the payload doc
[07:58] <Lunar_LanderU> B-4 still working?
[07:58] <Lunar_LanderU> cool!
[07:59] <eroomde> just put some stuff down after the checksum?
[07:59] <eroomde> i.e. send non-valid strings
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[08:03] <fsphil> yea just tried, you can have a second parser configuration for just data
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[08:10] <LeoBodnar> And it will merge them on the tracker site onto the status box fsphil ?
[08:10] <fsphil> I believe so
[08:10] <LeoBodnar> Could you briefly explained what you did to test it?
[08:10] <LeoBodnar> *please *explain?
[08:11] <fsphil> I used the format wizard twice, created a format with position and altitude, and another with just data
[08:11] <fsphil> same callsign
[08:12] <fsphil> I can't test if it displays it correctly, not at home and have no payload here :)
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[08:17] <fsphil> B-4 slowly coming down?
[08:18] <craag> Looks like it :(
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[08:19] <craag> or maybe not..
[08:20] <LazyLeopard> Seems to be fairly steady at 7.6kms
[08:20] <LazyLeopard> Went up a bit after sunrise.
[08:20] <craag> It just had 3 or 4 string of -1.2m/s
[08:22] <Upu> if we could clear that duff entry out the altitude graph would be easier to interpret
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[08:22] <LazyLeopard> Yeah
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[08:23] <fsphil> I had a quick look but don't think I can remove it
[08:24] <LazyLeopard> It was a glitch in the payload caught be a dozen or more stations, so there'd be quite a bit of cleaning to do...
[08:24] <GMT> instead of removing it how about changing the value
[08:25] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> morning
[08:25] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> the predictor says B-4 is heading for prison ;)
[08:26] <Upu> its psql I don't know how to login to it to delete a line
[08:26] <LeoBodnar> Thanks fsphil
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[08:26] <fsphil> I can login but I can't do anything
[08:27] <fsphil> can't fault security on this box :)
[08:28] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> should have taken a screenshot, now it is in the sea
[08:34] <Upu> haha just noticed Daveake "NOT_Chase" :)
[08:36] <Upu> DanielRichman has removed the duff point
[08:36] <Upu> altitude graph is now better
[08:36] <Upu> and very interesting
[08:36] <Upu> rock solid float over night
[08:36] <Upu> sun came up @ 4am
[08:38] <LeoBodnar> Cheers to DanielRichman (yet again!)
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[08:42] <LeoBodnar> Very gentle altitude gain with sunrise. Interesting. Maybe a small leak relieving extra pressure?
[08:48] <Upu> DanielRichman just removed 9 out of every 10 positions :)
[08:48] <Upu> as 90k positions was getting a little slow
[08:48] <LeoBodnar> Good pruning!
[08:49] <fsphil> it's a very choppy float atm
[08:49] <fsphil> sunrise is very obvious
[08:49] <Upu> yeah
[08:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> Good morning I see B-4 is still going just retuned it
[08:52] <Lunar_LanderU> LeoBodnar: well done :)
[08:52] <LeoBodnar> Geoff-G8DHE: I think the reason freq is shifting is because I have changed the tx freq to 434.5 from 434.6 but did not adjust freq correction formula.
[08:52] <LeoBodnar> Cheers Lunar_LanderU
[08:53] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[08:53] Action: Lunar_LanderU starts to jump in the office
[08:53] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[08:53] <fsphil> too much coffee again?
[08:53] <Lunar_LanderU> no, not at all yet
[08:54] <mfa298> It seemed to have been steady enough I was still decoding this morning but dl-fldigi had stopped uploading
[08:54] <mfa298> frequency wise that is
[08:54] <fsphil> any errors?
[08:54] <Lunar_LanderU> seems like it will fly directly across land's end
[08:54] <mfa298> I've been getting a few 504 errors from habitat
[08:55] <fsphil> if it keeps turning it could loop back -- but suspect the batteries will be flat long before then
[08:55] <mfa298> browser and dl-fldigi have reported them
[08:57] <LeoBodnar> Battery will run out in an hour or two
[09:01] <Upu> 17 hours /
[09:01] <Upu> ?
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[09:02] <G8LZE> Lost B-4 signal now
[09:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> still going going strong here, should be able to track it to its end whereever unless it gets to low!
[09:03] <fsphil> hopefully now floating again
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[09:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its been pretty stable all night http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/B-4/index.php?ind=4
[09:06] <Herman-PB0AHX> good morning all wow B4 is still flying
[09:09] <LeoBodnar> morning Herman-PB0AHX
[09:11] <Herman-PB0AHX> <LeoBodnar>good morning wow B4 is still flying
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[09:13] <LeoBodnar> Yes, survived the night and lived to see the Sun again. Not for much longer I am afraid - an hour or so. Battery will run out. It's only a single AAA.
[09:15] <Herman-PB0AHX> <LeoBodnar> yes that is a pity that baterei is empty then we really lost him and out of sight
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[09:21] Action: LazyLeopard is amused that NOT_chase does nevertheless seem to be positioning itself quite well. ;)
[09:22] <LazyLeopard> ...though it seems likely a boat would be needed.
[09:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> right time for a late breakfast!
[09:27] <Lunar_LanderU> yay!
[09:27] <fsphil> mmm
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[09:30] <Chetic> wow LeoBodnar, what's the hardware used for that?
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[09:33] <mattbrejza> Chetic: its a rfm22b like IC that can do small steps, with a TXCO which is corrected by the GPS PPS
[09:36] <Chetic> mattbrejza: small steps in what sense?
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[09:36] <mattbrejza> the PLL can be tuned in steps of say 5Hz
[09:38] <Chetic> what creates the need for a precise oscillator?
[09:38] <Chetic> I assume it's to keep a stable frequency but can't you just adjust that on the receiver?
[09:38] <craag> Having no drift means you can just set up the receiver and leave it.
[09:38] <Chetic> ah of course
[09:38] <craag> It takes all the fun out of it!
[09:39] <Chetic> lol :)
[09:39] <craag> But... does mean you get a lot more receivers overnight, as people can just leave it on, and it doesn't drift off.
[09:39] <mattbrejza> also domex doesnt have AFC?
[09:39] <fsphil> nope
[09:39] <mattbrejza> so kinda needed
[09:39] <fsphil> not in fldigi anyway
[09:39] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hi Philip. Can't stay long but thought I'd say hello.
[09:40] <fsphil> but it is quite tolerant to some offset
[09:40] <craag> Morning G0TDJ_Steve
[09:40] <craag> How was the wkend?
[09:40] <mattbrejza> not sure the GPS sync is needed, but could be useful for other things
[09:40] <LazyLeopard> Heh. Leave the laptop tracking all night, and come back in the morning to find it's still there...
[09:40] <fsphil> that payload probably has better frequency stability than my receiver
[09:41] <G0TDJ_Steve> Great fun Philip. I recovered CHEAPO in a golf course :-)
[09:41] <LazyLeopard> Be interesting to know what corrections have been made during the flight.
[09:41] <Chetic> pretty rad to have an oscillator tuned via satellite
[09:41] <craag> G0TDJ_Steve: Oh nice! I watched the balloons a little, tracked B-3 with our 19-ele horizontal yagi
[09:42] <LazyLeopard> I suspect the corrections have made quite a difference.
[09:42] <G0TDJ_Steve> Craag sadly, I have to go. Speak to you soon Philip and others.
[09:42] <craag> G0TDJ_Steve: Cya
[09:42] <mattbrejza> well i reckon it would have drifted slightly due to temperature, but dont sure it would have made that much of a duifference
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[09:42] <craag> It was nice to have solid stability though, and not to have to worry at all about drift.
[09:43] <fsphil> I found that cable last night craag, typically it was right in front of me the whole time.
[09:43] <craag> fsphil: Oh well
[09:44] <craag> Conditions were great!
[09:44] <craag> Got several 900km+ 59 contacts with 20W!
[09:44] <fsphil> I didn't hear anything on 70cm, but did hear some distant stations on 2m
[09:44] <mattbrejza> is NOT_chase going after it?
[09:44] <LazyLeopard> I've tweaked the offset between about 1390 and 1430 at stages, even with the correction in place.
[09:44] <fsphil> if you can call scotland distant
[09:44] <craag> polarisation won't have helped you though
[09:44] <fsphil> yes I was vertical
[09:45] <LazyLeopard> NOT_chase is doing exactly what it says. ;)
[09:45] <craag> And even then, everyone has beams so the band appears a *lot* more empty than it is.
[09:46] <craag> Just tuning 432.1 - 432.4 I'd usually find 3 stations, but on every frequency there was a station, jsut needed our beams to co-align.
[09:48] <fsphil> when's the next event?
[09:48] <craag> Erm that's the big VHF/UHF one of the year. HF SSB field day is ukhas conf wkend :(
[09:49] Nick change: Jess--Away -> Jess--
[09:50] <fsphil> ah, typical
[09:50] <craag> There's little VHF/UHF contests on occasionally, but most tend to do them from home so don't get very far.
[09:51] <craag> field day gets everyone onto hilltops, so there's a lot more contacts possible.
[09:53] <Jess--> most tuesdays there are contests on uhf or vhf
[09:54] <craag> There's the monthly 'activity' night which is good in some places I think.
[09:54] <craag> Totally dead round here though.
[09:55] <craag> I was disappointed at the lack of data comms on 70cm over this weekend.
[09:55] <craag> I only ever saw one PSK carrier, and it was far too weak.
[09:57] <craag> But.. the range of some of the voice comms was fantastic, several 900km+ with 20W on 70cm (barefoot FT897).
[09:57] Action: craag spam-mutes himself.
[09:59] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> craag: how is 2m at the moment?
[10:00] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo_eur.html
[10:00] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> UK is just out of the plot....but too early today anyway
[10:00] <fsphil> I send out some rtty
[10:00] <craag> Wouter-[pa3weg]: Very good I believe, many qsos over the weekend and I know one guy has been working france from inland uk this morning.
[10:00] <fsphil> on 70cm
[10:01] <gonzo_> any replies phil?
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[10:01] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> 70cm RTTY freq?
[10:01] <daveake> What's the latest on B-4?
[10:02] <craag> daveake: steady float, but maybe 30mins of battery left.
[10:02] <daveake> Ah ok
[10:03] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> I just got a small aerial up the roof, nothing near the tracking yagi´s at work...but it is a start
[10:03] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> diamond X-50N
[10:05] <craag> 7.7km float.. that's impressive for a foil!
[10:05] <SpeedEvil> :)
[10:06] <gonzo_> I'm getting signals, and that is a poor direction for me and the preamps are all off (very high cable loss)
[10:08] <Upu> remind me LeoBodnar what time did you power this on ?
[10:09] <Upu> if the voltage goes to 1.1v then you have 30 mins left
[10:09] Nick change: Upu -> UpuWork
[10:10] <Jess--> battery voltage seems to be coming back up
[10:11] <Jess--> went as low as 1.24, back up 1.28 now
[10:11] <fsphil> gonzo_: none. I doubt many around here would recognise it from sound
[10:12] <UpuWork> My calcs were about 17.5 hours run time from an AAA
[10:12] <UpuWork> this has been up 16h10 ish
[10:13] <fsphil> NOT_chase could shoot it down
[10:13] <UpuWork> be amazing if it burst now
[10:13] <UpuWork> made it down and landed on Dave
[10:13] <fsphil> !NOT_chase
[10:13] <UpuWork> if it lasts past 13:00 its better on batteries than PAVA
[10:15] <daveake> NOT_chase is not on :)
[10:16] <Guest97955> Received email: Oliver de Peyer Astrobiologist "[UKHAS] Actually handy for the which-field-exactly bit when
[10:20] <Laurenceb> what does this balloon look like?
[10:20] <Laurenceb> multiple foil?
[10:21] <Laurenceb> and whats it running off?
[10:21] <Jess--> single foil I believe
[10:21] <Jess--> and single aaa battery
[10:21] <Laurenceb> wow
[10:21] <Laurenceb> lithium im guessing?
[10:21] <mattbrejza> yea
[10:22] <mattbrejza> could save power by putting out less power with this mode
[10:22] <Jess--> afaik energiser lithium
[10:22] <Laurenceb> any photos?
[10:22] <UpuWork> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-4/
[10:22] <mattbrejza> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-2/
[10:22] <mattbrejza> urgh
[10:23] <UpuWork> B-2 was Saturday :)
[10:23] <Laurenceb> oh nice
[10:23] <LazyLeopard> B3 was Saturday.
[10:23] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[10:23] <Laurenceb> microchip i see
[10:23] <UpuWork> I loose track :)
[10:23] <SpeedEvil> On testing: 'During testing of the "Stanley Capsule" in 1962, a bear became the first living creature to survive a supersonic ejection.'
[10:23] <Laurenceb> lol
[10:24] <Laurenceb> is that a silabs i see?
[10:24] <UpuWork> yeah
[10:24] <Laurenceb> cool
[10:24] <UpuWork> 4060
[10:24] <UpuWork> 4030 ?
[10:24] <UpuWork> one of them
[10:24] <Laurenceb> i see quality murata inductors :P
[10:24] <Laurenceb> thats the way to get max performance out of the silabs stuff
[10:24] <Laurenceb> it needs good matching
[10:25] <mattbrejza> those inductors are nuts
[10:25] <mattbrejza> how can you wind something on 0402
[10:25] <Laurenceb> using a winding tool
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: Chinese midget women.
[10:25] <UpuWork> lol
[10:26] <Laurenceb> ooh dominoex
[10:26] <Laurenceb> using some custom shift?
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[10:26] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> murata, coilcraft, wurth
[10:26] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> all decent stuff
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[10:27] <mattbrejza> that Si IC can do small enough shift
[10:27] <Laurenceb> ah
[10:27] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Ah ha http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/08/spears_flight/
[10:27] <Laurenceb> i 've only played with si4432
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[10:31] Action: UpuWork shakes his head
[10:31] <UpuWork> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/27/lohan_failsafe_update/
[10:32] <mattbrejza> have they worked out what failsafe means...
[10:32] <mattbrejza> nope
[10:32] <mattbrejza> (same article)
[10:32] <fsphil> silly question
[10:32] <craag> hehe
[10:32] <craag> Also, surely you can get smaller (lighter) clockwork timers..
[10:33] <eroomde> hideous
[10:33] <UpuWork> I've given up arguing
[10:33] <UpuWork> its his balloon
[10:33] <craag> Wouldn't be as dramatic I guess..
[10:34] <Laurenceb> wtf
[10:34] <Laurenceb> not sure if troll
[10:34] <UpuWork> Sadly not
[10:34] <Laurenceb> looks like a high altitude knot device
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[10:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> Loosing the B-4 signal to QRM on the channel now :-(
[10:37] <Jess--> surely that chute wouldn't have enough drag to deploy until it hit somewhere around 15000m anyway
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[10:37] <Laurenceb> 14hours float :P
[10:38] <eroomde> Jess--: it has about the same drag almost the whole way down
[10:38] <eroomde> why would the drag change?
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[10:39] <daveake> Just been back to the car to set up the netbook for tracking
[10:39] <Laurenceb> because of air density
[10:39] <Laurenceb> /troll physics
[10:39] <daveake> Seems to be a nice strong signal ... wonder why ...
[10:40] <Jess--> I was thinking lower air density not being enough to open chute fully, although thinking more faster rate of descent would cancel that out
[10:40] <eroomde> it's in equilibrium the whole time
[10:40] <eroomde> drag = weight
[10:41] <eroomde> except for the few seconds after burst where it accelerates
[10:44] <gonzo_> Wouter-[pa3weg], I see you are on the AMSAT UK colloquium list.
[10:44] <gonzo_> Anyone else here going?
[10:45] <Geoff-G8DHE_> will bethere
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[10:45] <eroomde> won't bethere
[10:49] <Laurenceb> wind seems to be increasing
[10:50] <GMT> won't know for quite a while ... supposed to be in Germany that weekend; if that falls thru, will try to get ticket
[10:52] <UpuWork> 17 hours...
[10:52] <UpuWork> impressive run time from a AAA
[10:54] <Laurenceb> now if we used the spread spectrum based positioning technique
[10:54] <Laurenceb> we could get weeks out of a AAA
[10:55] <Laurenceb> 1.23v :(
[10:58] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> yes I am
[10:58] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> one of the speakers about every year....
[10:58] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> Dave always gets to me
[10:58] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> :D
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[11:01] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> Jules, you are close to Jim right??
[11:03] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> that´s still a reasonable drive to the colloquium
[11:03] <Wouter-[pa3weg]> Mark and Cassie (stratodean) are attending, too (if all goed well...)
[11:05] <eroomde> and peleg
[11:09] <eroomde> if all goes wrong
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[11:14] <HixWork> Laurenceb, spread spectrum? is that bearings from trackers? negating the GPS?
[11:14] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:14] <eroomde> not bearings but pseudoranges
[11:15] <Geoff-G8DHE_> hats going to need some critical timing at all the "tracking" stations ?
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[11:15] <mattbrejza> yea just GPS sync
[11:17] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Be nice just to get all the Tx sync in the balloons first ;-)
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> Well, there is an alternative to syncing.
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> Just keep a balloon in the air, with a GPS, and also broadcasting time
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> In the same receive-band.
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[11:18] <SpeedEvil> That would be an interesting near-term hack to do.
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> One balloon is launched on 434.000, just as a beacon.
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> One balloon is launched on 434.001 as a 'normal' payload.
[11:19] <mattbrejza> could also get people to record their rtty they recive, with a gps pps in the other audio channel
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> The normal network - instead of recording strings - digitise the waveband
[11:20] <mattbrejza> somehwat less accurate then sampling at a higher IF, but would be a start
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> And see how well the pure tracking works.
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> Using the GPS as a time reference.
[11:21] <Laurenceb> that would be practical for a rockoon
[11:21] <Laurenceb> then you can have a tiny tx on the rocket
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> It's not optimal in a number of ways.
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> But I don't see why it wouldn't work.
[11:22] <mattbrejza> 555 timer + coin cell tx? :P
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> I was actually meaning pure CW beacon
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> (On the assumption that drift was less likely to be an issue)
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> A 555 would add considerably.
[11:24] <Laurenceb> an arm cortex m0
[11:24] <mattbrejza> 555 timer producing a 6MHz carrier (a cc1101 is prbably just as small but less amusing)
[11:24] <Laurenceb> silly
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[11:24] <mattbrejza> there have been worse ideas posted on this channel recently
[11:25] <mattbrejza> involving kitchen timers...
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> The basic idea was to be really easy, and potentially doable any time anyone has a spare RF module that emits on an appropriate frequency - and any common-or-garden payload at all.
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> (well, and of course a balloon)
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> I guess even a ride-along would work - with the idea that the delta-p should be zero.
[11:28] <Geoff-G8DHE_> ? Surely the reference beacon would still be drifting and changing position and hence timing so it can't be better than having the gps on board ?
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> The point of the reference beacon is to avoid having local time-references at each receiver.
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> Which nobody at the moment has. Clearly, local time-references are the right way to do this.
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> It's something that could potentially be done next week.
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> (Assuming interest)
[11:30] <Laurenceb> GPs 1pps through a cap into the dongle ADC
[11:30] <Laurenceb> so you get spikes
[11:30] <Laurenceb> seems a way to do it
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I don't say it's in principle not easy - but nobodies got that setup yet.
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[11:30] <Laurenceb> iirc DarkSide did it
[11:30] <Laurenceb> but yeah, hardly anyone
[11:31] <Darkside> yeah
[11:31] <Darkside> it doesnt work well with narrow bandwidth signals
[11:31] <Laurenceb> he there :P
[11:31] <Laurenceb> *hi
[11:31] <Darkside> i dont think you could localise the position to any better than a few km
[11:31] <Darkside> tbh that might be good enough for some things
[11:31] <Laurenceb> with narrow band, sure
[11:31] <Geoff-G8DHE_> would agree!!
[11:31] <Laurenceb> but the ism band transceiver ics can do a few hundered khz
[11:31] <Laurenceb> almost as good as gps
[11:31] <Darkside> im sure you could do more
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> The nice thing about the above solution is that you're basically digitising the whole waveband - and the doppler just pops out as nice audio differences.
[11:32] <Darkside> i havent looked ot fsar into it
[11:32] <Laurenceb> and the dongles can receive that
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> With readily trackable phases.
[11:32] <Laurenceb> it seems exciting
[11:32] <Darkside> just looked at how you can et the timing info in
[11:32] <Laurenceb> just a pity it needs modded dongles
[11:32] <Darkside> not hard to mod though
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> 70cm/s delta-v = 1Hz offset
[11:32] <Darkside> cap, resistor
[11:32] <Laurenceb> i've been meaning to simulate doppler fit for a rockoon
[11:32] <Geoff-G8DHE_> lets reference the Tx in the balloons first then we wouldn't have to be retuning every few minutes! We have the GPS with the timing already built in...
[11:32] <Laurenceb> not go round to it yet
[11:33] <Laurenceb> in theiry something like octave SQP should allow it
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> Geoff-G8DHE_: and yes - that would be nice too
[11:33] <Laurenceb> Darkside: do you have photos of your dongle?
[11:33] <Laurenceb> that sound wrong
[11:33] <Laurenceb> *s
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:33] <Geoff-G8DHE_> LoL
[11:33] <Darkside> you want to see picturs of my dongle do you?
[11:33] <Darkside> i bet you like that kind of thing
[11:34] <Laurenceb> teehee
[11:34] Action: Darkside whips out his dongle
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[11:34] <Darkside> ill get a pic now
[11:35] <daveake> Darkside's USP is his USB dongle
[11:35] <Geoff-G8DHE_> My Dongles screwed in at the moment http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/HABAMP_and_DONGLE/
[11:35] <Darkside> USP?
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> Unique Sellling Penis
[11:35] <daveake> Unique Selling Point
[11:35] <daveake> lol
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> More gold than Mr T.
[11:36] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Casn you see it yet daveake ?
[11:36] <Geoff-G8DHE_> B-4 that is ;-)
[11:37] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/AejTJJe.jpg
[11:37] <fsphil> B-4ever
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[11:37] <Laurenceb> nice and simple :P
[11:38] <Darkside> yeah used larger components to bridge the space
[11:38] <Darkside> the pulse is noticible
[11:38] <daveake> Building (which I'm in) is prolly in the way
[11:38] <daveake> I shall look :)
[11:38] <Darkside> havent done much work on using it to time reference anything
[11:38] <Darkside> i only did it on my HF receiver
[11:38] <GMT> daveake: any chance you could reach up and change the battery for us?
[11:39] <daveake> lol
[11:41] <Laurenceb> heh "peoples park"
[11:45] <mfa298> Now if only this had been launched up in scotland, maybe we could have had John o' Groats to Lands' End
[11:45] <Geoff-G8DHE_> down to 1.2v ....
[11:46] <morteh> im in scotland know
[11:47] <fsphil> I do now
[11:47] <Geoff-G8DHE_> In that case just wait for it to complete the great circle
[11:47] <mfa298> this does seem to be a well behaved balloon. It could quite easily have headed for water.
[11:49] <Laurenceb> battery finally dying
[11:49] <mfa298> plus it's done a good job of staying away from motorways and major roads as well as cities / large towns.
[11:52] <UpuWork> yeah battery going
[11:52] <UpuWork> 18 hors
[11:52] <UpuWork> my calcs were 17.9
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[11:53] <UpuWork> suspect its using less than 67mA
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[11:53] <LeoBodnar> B-4 still flying? \o/
[11:54] <UpuWork> yep
[11:54] <UpuWork> just
[11:54] <UpuWork> battery is going over the discharge cliff
[11:54] <UpuWork> so I'd give it < 30 mins
[11:54] <UpuWork> but thats 18 hours
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[11:55] <UpuWork> I calculated 17.9 hours @ 67mA
[11:55] <UpuWork> so using less than that
[11:55] <UpuWork> what did you record ?
[11:55] <UpuWork> I theory crafted with open sky it would use less power
[11:57] <LeoBodnar> It had a lot of 4-5 sats periods so maybe with better GPS antenna it can do better
[11:58] <mattbrejza> the layout of reg choice might be comprimising gps performance
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[11:58] <mfa298> with 5-6 sats at the moment looks like the batt voltage has recovered slightly just saw it incrase from 1.13 to 1.16 over a few sentences and staying at 1.16
[11:59] <mattbrejza> also it doesnt go into power save mode without a decent lock
[12:00] <craag> I've wondered how much power you'd save by using the sarantel antenna, at the cost of weight.
[12:00] <Laurenceb> midday
[12:00] <Laurenceb> should be ~max solar heating now
[12:01] <LeoBodnar> 1/4 wave GP works perfectly for GPS. Will use it next time.
[12:04] <craag> I've tried GPS with a 1/4 wave on the ground, worked great, except when next to a 70cm ISM tx..
[12:04] <craag> Those chip antennas are very good filters.
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[12:07] <craag> 5/8 whip + GP worked even better, but is 1/4 wave resonant on 70cm.
[12:08] <daveake> got it on camera
[12:08] <daveake> tiny splodge
[12:08] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Really ?
[12:09] <daveake> no not a dodgy pixel it's only on that frame
[12:09] <daveake> hmm actually ..
[12:09] <daveake> ... next frame shows the same bit of cloud and it's not there
[12:09] <daveake> oh well
[12:09] <Laurenceb> binoculars
[12:09] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Brill !
[12:09] <LeoBodnar> What was the distance between GPs vertically? craag I think I have tried them both at full TX power and everything was fine. GPS GP might be in the shadow of the UHF one because the distance is so close.
[12:10] <craag> about 6cm
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[12:10] <craag> It was on one of my payload PCBs
[12:10] <craag> with RFM22
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[12:11] <craag> GPS signal wasn't so good in my room there though, so it may have just been a little, but enough to stop it getting a lock.
[12:12] <craag> I wasn't particularly scientific about it, should have hooked up ucenter to look at jamming/snr
[12:14] <UpuWork> so LeoBodnar
[12:14] <daveake> Well this is the splodge but like I say wasn't visible in the next frame that included that same piece of cloud. So maybe it was a bird. But anyway - http://i.imgur.com/0bPMGQY.jpg
[12:14] <UpuWork> exactly what time did you power this on ?
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[12:15] <LeoBodnar> Ah, you can count back the sequence numbers from the first received sentence. Let me see...
[12:16] <Ugi> Hi guys
[12:16] <Ugi> B4 been up all night?
[12:16] <UpuWork> yep
[12:16] <Ugi> wowzers
[12:16] <Ugi> you can see the rise in the graph as the sun came out this morning!
[12:17] <daveake> The receiver in the car keeps drifting as it's so hot in there
[12:17] <LeoBodnar> 348,18:29:14,52.04207,-1.14993,1058,6,1.52,25 this is the first in the logs
[12:18] <fsphil> "The Milky Way Adventure Park"
[12:18] <LeoBodnar> 796,19:29:20,51.9129,-1.30566,3789,6,1.46,11 this is an hour later
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[12:19] <UpuWork> 17.8 hours then
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[12:19] <LeoBodnar> So 46 minutes back from 18:29 gives 17:45
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> It starts from "1" when powered up
[12:20] <UpuWork> oh
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> I had problems uploading data
[12:20] <UpuWork> so 18.55 hours
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> Oh
[12:20] <UpuWork> 65mA
[12:20] <UpuWork> nice
[12:20] <mattbrejza> is it putting out 10dBm?
[12:21] <Laurenceb> i dont se the splodge
[12:21] <Laurenceb> in the photo
[12:21] <LeoBodnar> I did not measuer the output mattbrejza just yet but from reports not far off
[12:21] <mattbrejza> with domex you could probably turn that down and save more power
[12:22] <Laurenceb> which dominoex mode is it using?
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> And maybe not transmit it constantly, especially in the night time
[12:22] <mattbrejza> 16, no fec
[12:22] <Laurenceb> i see
[12:23] <mattbrejza> last time i did periodic tx it annoyed everyone, but the crystal was small and next to the IC so it would heat and move a bit (not an issue for you)
[12:24] <mfa298> if you wanted a compromise go for transmit continuously but at a lower power and bump the power up every so often
[12:25] <UpuWork> 1.1V
[12:25] <UpuWork> going to die soon :)
[12:26] <fsphil> not going to survive cornwall
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[12:29] <daveake> few do
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[12:32] <UpuWork> 0.87v is where the TPS step ups tend to die
[12:33] <mattbrejza> isnt .87 turn on limit rather than turn off limit?
[12:34] <LeoBodnar> It's tripping earlier than turn off because the input bypassing is not that massive so there are local voltage dips.
[12:34] <UpuWork> thats what I've measured in testing
[12:34] <mattbrejza> oh ok
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[12:35] <LeoBodnar> Just 400uF or so - not enough to sustain anything
[12:36] <mattbrejza> 400u is lots? normally max of maybe 44u in ceramics on the output and 10-22u on the input?
[12:36] <gonzo_> did B-4 just run out of batts?
[12:36] <Laurenceb> bet it crosses the A361
[12:36] <LeoBodnar> 440uF in tantalums and 10uF in ceramics
[12:37] <mattbrejza> that sounds like more than plenty
[12:37] <LeoBodnar> Maybe will leave out tantalums, they just take space and are in the awkward position (near battery clips)
[12:38] <gonzo_> Ah, no. Browser locked. Doh
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[12:40] <Laurenceb> is this the first time we've seen a floater in the daytime with sunny weather?
[12:41] <Laurenceb> what envelope is it using?
[12:41] <LeoBodnar> 36" qualatex foil
[12:42] <Laurenceb> interesting
[12:42] <Laurenceb> same as other have used
[12:42] <UpuWork> well I think it may just make it to the sea side
[12:42] <Laurenceb> but its flying higher, at lower temperature
[12:42] <Laurenceb> UpuWork: doubt it
[12:43] <UpuWork> its got a little more in it
[12:43] <UpuWork> not much though
[12:43] <UpuWork> battery equivalent of vapours
[12:43] <LeoBodnar> Power profile was encouraging.
[12:43] <mfa298> seems to be doing a good job of running on those "vapours" though.
[12:44] <Laurenceb> 16hours float
[12:44] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Wonder how much a simple solar cell would assist ?
[12:44] <UpuWork> it would run with easy on 3 small cells
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> Geoff-G8DHE_: quite a lot
[12:44] <UpuWork> and they only weigh 1.2g each
[12:44] <UpuWork> uh oh
[12:44] <UpuWork> I just gave LeoBodnar an idea
[12:44] <LeoBodnar> What's the current lightest solar cell technology available to layman?
[12:44] <UpuWork> he'll be launching it tommorrow evening
[12:44] <UpuWork> Leo "12 hour turn around" Bodnar :)
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: standard crystalline cell is pretty light.
[12:45] <LeoBodnar> lol UpuWork we have already discussed this in the office this morning
[12:45] <UpuWork> let me get you the links
[12:45] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: If you don't care about them being fragile.
[12:45] <UpuWork> hang on
[12:45] <LeoBodnar> SOme company a few years back floated on the stock exchange and they were making printable solar cell material - paper like.
[12:45] <Laurenceb> powerflex looks good
[12:45] <UpuWork> http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/?mp337&show=product&productID=271535&productCategoryIDs=6573
[12:46] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: They are .2mm thick, with a density of 2 - so, .04g/cm^2 - a gram is 25cm^2.
[12:46] <Laurenceb> yeah that
[12:46] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: so, 300mW/g or so
[12:46] <UpuWork> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PowerFilm-MP3-37-Flexible-Solar-Panel-Cell-3v-50mA-/281097190162?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4172b2bb12
[12:46] <UpuWork> I have three of them here
[12:46] <LeoBodnar> cool, needs looking at!
[12:47] <UpuWork> or this one : http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/?mp325&show=product&productID=271534&productCategoryIDs=6573
[12:47] <UpuWork> in theory you could use 2
[12:47] <UpuWork> and if you can design something that uses batteries when its dark and solar when there is power there
[12:48] <UpuWork> you're good for days
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> Pointing them up - if there is a reasonable distance between payload and balloon - would work well
[12:48] <mattbrejza> just get a power managment IC from linear, then youre sorted
[12:48] <UpuWork> if you can suggest one mattbrejza
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> Or just shunt regulate.
[12:48] <eroomde> there are loads
[12:48] <mattbrejza> some have max power point tracking
[12:48] <UpuWork> the regulator Leo is using has that
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> A 4.2V shunt regulator is probably the easy way. (for lithium)
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> at small scale at least.
[12:49] <mattbrejza> are we intending to charge?
[12:49] <eroomde> LT3652
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> MPPT is essentially pointless if you can pick the right voltage
[12:49] <UpuWork> nothing
[12:49] <eroomde> http://www.linear.com/product/LT3652
[12:49] <UpuWork> you can't charge anything < 0
[12:50] <SpeedEvil> UpuWork: Well, ultracaps
[12:50] <UpuWork> well ok I couldn't find anything that is commerically availble that you can charge sub zero
[12:50] <UpuWork> SpeedEvil I tried 10F lasted 3 mins
[12:50] <SpeedEvil> UpuWork: yeah - there is that.
[12:50] <mattbrejza> yea suppose mppt is only useful when you can charge something
[12:50] <UpuWork> so it needs to switch between lithium primary
[12:50] <UpuWork> and solatr
[12:50] <UpuWork> solar
[12:50] <SpeedEvil> I suspect in practice a more sane solution would be to just test it.
[12:50] <eroomde> you must be able to keep the payload above 0, surely?
[12:50] <eroomde> with good insulation
[12:51] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Plus - Doh - solar input.
[12:51] <UpuWork> we discussed it and its possible using heaters but not easy
[12:51] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: top in bubble-wrap, bottom in space blanket
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[12:51] <SpeedEvil> If you only want to charge when there is sunlight - use solar-thermal to warm the battery
[12:52] <UpuWork> you could use the solar to heat the batteries, charge , as soon as solar goes run from batteries
[12:52] <UpuWork> going to try it at some point
[12:52] <SpeedEvil> Or just resistive will work of course too, to some degree
[12:52] <UpuWork> its on my list
[12:52] <fsphil> below 1v now
[12:53] <UpuWork> yep
[12:53] <UpuWork> 18.5 hours
[12:55] <eroomde> probably just using a max7 and getting a fix just every 30s might help increase batt life
[12:56] <fsphil> dropping really quickly now
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> There seems little point doing every 30s most of the time.
[12:56] <eroomde> why?
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> I mean - the update rate doesn't need to be that fast
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> Unless you're close to teh ground.
[12:56] <eroomde> well indeed, though people might get boared
[12:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> My remote weather station uses two akaline rechargables with a solar cell array and has been going 3 years! Powering 866MHz Tx
[12:57] <UpuWork> you could just fit an accelerometer and dead reckon for 30 mmins
[12:57] <UpuWork> hell an hour
[12:57] <eroomde> yes UpuWork
[12:57] <eroomde> great idea
[12:57] <Laurenceb> died?
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> UpuWork: Accellerometers that can dead reckon basically suck
[12:57] <Chris_M6CSV> Seems dead.
[12:57] <eroomde> i predict that after 20s it will think you are on the moon
[12:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> constant carrier
[12:57] <mattbrejza> hmm just carrier
[12:57] <eroomde> and passing it at mach 50
[12:57] Action: fsphil salutes
[12:57] <UpuWork> twas good
[12:57] <fsphil> annoying as it's heading in my direction
[12:57] <UpuWork> well ok then a compass so it knows what direction its going
[12:58] <UpuWork> and what speed it is
[12:58] <eroomde> no
[12:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Gone
[12:58] <mattbrejza> the carrier faded to nothing
[12:58] <UpuWork> and dead reckon
[12:58] <eroomde> that only knows what direction it's pointing
[12:58] <mattbrejza> in a mini send off
[12:58] <eroomde> not what direction it's going
[12:58] <Darkside> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Pz5KsyfN0
[12:58] <UpuWork> you know the speed from the GPS
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> UpuWork: you're looking at - at best - 100ug or so error. This is 1mm/s^2. After an hour, you're 3.6m/s and 6000m off.
[12:58] <eroomde> the point is to not be GPSing i thought
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> Wait - those numbers look too good.
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[12:59] <mattbrejza> tbh just put a cmaera on the bottom, use image processing and a detailed map to work out what youre above
[12:59] <UpuWork> you know where you're going direction, you know what speed you're doing, you turn the GPS off
[12:59] <fsphil> wouldn't that use more power? :)
[12:59] <UpuWork> then turn it back on 30 mins later and correct it
[12:59] <mattbrejza> na...
[12:59] <eroomde> yes but you'd be wildly off after 30m
[12:59] <LeoBodnar> Great flight!
[12:59] <UpuWork> fine thats what the correction is for
[12:59] <eroomde> the accelerometers would just send you off into space
[12:59] <UpuWork> lets pretend I never said accelerometer
[13:00] <eroomde> so why have accelerometers in the first place?
[13:00] <eroomde> lol
[13:00] <eroomde> ok
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> It might work - with a gyro - for a minute or ten reasonably accurately.
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> But you're going to need to keep both accurate and integrating all the time.
[13:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/B-4/index.php?ind=5
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> Which is going to eat up much of your savings.
[13:00] <eroomde> and the CPU working hard to fuse them
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[13:00] <SpeedEvil> A baro sensor might actually be easier.
[13:00] <UpuWork> ok ok just use an AA next time :P
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[13:00] <SpeedEvil> Or temperature-swing to turn on the GPS
[13:00] <LeoBodnar> Did you calculate the total running time UpuWork - I am a bit slow today.
[13:01] <eroomde> baro + latest wind predictions might actually be a solution
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[13:01] <UpuWork> 18.5 hours give or take
[13:01] <LeoBodnar> Cool, thanks
[13:01] <fsphil> new pico record?
[13:01] <UpuWork> 65mA which is bang on what the PAVA board uses
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:02] <Lunar_LanderU> what was the duration of the one that flew to sweden?
[13:02] <LeoBodnar> 18:45 - 13:56
[13:02] <eroomde> didn't jame's solar cell thing work for a while?
[13:02] <eroomde> bbl
[13:02] <LeoBodnar> jcoxon flew 33 hour one to France and back?
[13:02] <LeoBodnar> Was it a single 36"?
[13:03] <UpuWork> yeah that was the one that did a massive arse to France
[13:03] <fsphil> oh yes
[13:03] <LeoBodnar> teehee
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[13:05] <HixWork> le moon francais
[13:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> Any likelyhood that the battery might recover and it restart after a while at these temperatures ?
[13:08] <mattbrejza> nope
[13:08] <mattbrejza> (imo)
[13:08] <fsphil> battery in that state would have no hope of powering the gps again
[13:09] <Geoff-G8DHE> Suspected as much but not looked at the battery datasheet to see.
[13:10] <LeoBodnar> No way, it is depleted now.
[13:11] <number10> LeoBodnar: http://i.imgur.com/onrk2Hn.jpg
[13:11] <LeoBodnar> They usually show some misleading open circuit voltage but under any load it drops to zero. Internal resistance becomes too big.
[13:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/PICO/
[13:12] <LeoBodnar> haha!
[13:12] <HixWork> the pop icon was impeccably placed too :D
[13:15] <Geoff-G8DHE> Flight profile http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/B-4/B-4_201307081400_flight_profile.jpg
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[13:19] <number10> it was
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[13:36] <fsphil> that's right, it survived to the second day
[13:39] <GMT> that was the 'long-time' floater that ran out of battery somewhere in the Welsh borders
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[13:40] <mfa298> From what I remember of that one it went below peoples horizon before the battery went
[13:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> yes it faded out as it went into land in the Brecon Beacons
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[13:53] <pjm_> http://pjm.uhf-satcom.com/twtr/B-4.jpg this was the signal as it started to spread from carrier
[13:55] <LeoBodnar> interesting pjm_
[13:56] <fsphil> oh that is odd
[13:58] <eroomde> i think i've seen that before
[13:59] <eroomde> so to make a crystal oscillate, you give it a kick with some voltage and then feed the output of the voltage generated by the quartz through an amplifer and back in to excite the quartz
[13:59] <eroomde> i.e. driving it at its resonance
[13:59] <eroomde> but the feedback circuits can be quite lossy
[14:00] <eroomde> so the energy of the output has to at least match the losses of the feedback circuit
[14:00] <eroomde> if that stops happening, eg the input voltage drops, then the crystal can become a pretty crap, noisy, low-q oscillator for abit
[14:01] <eroomde> sort of trying to oscillate but dying and maybe only being given a kick infrequently
[14:01] <eroomde> which when modulated up will probably look like spreading
[14:01] <eroomde> as it's basically just crappy phase
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[14:04] <eroomde> well that's a hand wavy possible explanation
[14:05] <eroomde> i would expect to see a dying oscilaltor produce crappy phase noise which would spread the carrier
[14:05] <chrisg7ogx> i've lost B4 can someone give me a dial freq please?
[14:06] <mfa298> chrisg7ogx: the battery died
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[14:06] <chrisg7ogx> mfa298 thanks but what a great flight! got up for old mans wee and she was still there!!
[14:07] <eroomde> died a couple of hours ago
[14:07] <chrisg7ogx> back to garden but too hot for us gingers
[14:08] <eroomde> my ginger colleague just said same
[14:08] <eroomde> we had lunch outside
[14:08] <eroomde> after ten minutes he declared time
[14:08] <mattbrejza> the evenings are very nice though
[14:09] <mattbrejza> sitting outside at midnight, being perfectly warm under a starry sky
[14:09] <chrisg7ogx> yes fantastic eveningswish there was an app for bat calls though
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> It is way too hot here in scotland.
[14:09] <mattbrejza> you sure there isnt?
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> It's 23C!
[14:09] <chrisg7ogx> using app to id a/c flying overhead was interesting
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[14:10] <chrisg7ogx> well done search on play store that's all
[14:10] <mattbrejza> you have flying aircon units?
[14:10] <chrisg7ogx> lol
[14:10] <chrisg7ogx> speedevil enjoy you lot aren't normally allowed
[14:11] <chrisg7ogx> was b4 a party type foil balloon?
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> On the topic of unusual flying things - http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/01/201311810421796400.html
[14:11] <mattbrejza> 28C near here apparently
[14:15] <chrisg7ogx> sooo the exchange rate is one Kenyan shilling per poo bag, that's very reasonable
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[14:33] <LeoBodnar> yes chrisstubbs
[14:34] <LeoBodnar> sorry, yes chrisg7ogx
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[14:41] <jdtanner> Afternoon. How long is B-4 likely to last?
[14:42] <eroomde> it's dead
[14:43] <jdtanner> Ah....when did that happen?
[14:44] <jdtanner> Oh, two hours ago :(
[14:44] <mfa298> managed around 18 hours from a single AAA cell
[14:44] <jdtanner> That is awesome.
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[15:02] <gonzo_> the dominoex16 is an impressive mode
[15:03] <gonzo_> I was getting deciodes down ijn the noise
[15:03] <gonzo_> have to give it a try
[15:03] <eroomde> it's better theoretically and i wouldn't be surprised if the receiver code wa sa bit better implemented on fldigi
[15:05] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: did you use the version with FEC?
[15:05] <mattbrejza> lower baud rate, trellis coded modulation, not a supprise really, and has the same throughput as 50 baud rtty (i think, there abouts)
[15:05] <mattbrejza> eroomde: he didnt
[15:06] <Laurenceb> but mfsk wins
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[15:06] <eroomde> dominoex is mfsk
[15:06] <mattbrejza> still havnt worked out why M>2 gives better performance than M=2
[15:06] <mattbrejza> for same bandwidth
[15:06] <Laurenceb> shannon
[15:06] <eroomde> if there's an actual mode called 'mfsk' then they should be punished by death for using a reserved keyword
[15:07] <Laurenceb> http://www.w1hkj.com/FldigiHelp-3.21/Modes/mfsk.htm
[15:07] <Laurenceb> http://ukhas.org.uk/code:radio
[15:07] <eroomde> let us punish them by death
[15:07] <Laurenceb> <mattbrejza>: shannon says it's better
[15:08] <eroomde> that's not maths
[15:08] <eroomde> therefore says nothing
[15:08] <mattbrejza> you can lower the baud rate, but there are more choices
[15:08] <mattbrejza> so its not obvious why
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[15:08] <Laurenceb> thats Claude Shannon, not Shannon Matthews
[15:08] <mattbrejza> if you keep the same bandwidth and transmit power than shannon doesnt change
[15:09] <mattbrejza> lazy way would to just simulate and then accept the result
[15:09] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem
[15:09] <Laurenceb> we are power limited
[15:10] <Laurenceb> so we want to up the bandwidth/bps
[15:10] <Laurenceb> mfsk does that
[15:10] <eroomde> yes, i think matt is saying that given the width of domino is about the same as our rtty spacing, why is it performing better?
[15:10] <Laurenceb> its not
[15:10] <Laurenceb> its way more bandwidth
[15:10] <mattbrejza> well domex does other stuff too so you cant really compare
[15:10] <eroomde> or at least can you say it performs better from a purely power/bw pov?
[15:10] <Laurenceb> rtty is <50hz
[15:10] <eroomde> i suspect the trellis coding has a lot to do with it in terms of constrining choices and keeping the average spacing higher
[15:11] <Laurenceb> and that
[15:11] <Laurenceb> http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/MFSK/bweff.gif
[15:11] <eroomde> there have been lots of things recently where some appliacne of science is needed to settle the debate
[15:11] <eroomde> i might sit down with some teas and try and go through it again
[15:11] <mattbrejza> if you have two schemes that use 100kHz, and a fixed output power, but one uses more carriers and lower symbol rate, why is the more carriers one better?
[15:11] <Laurenceb> we want top left
[15:11] <Willdude123> Still trying to find a good book for arduino code.
[15:11] <Laurenceb> on that plot
[15:11] <mattbrejza> shannon doesnt really exaplin it
[15:12] <Laurenceb> sure
[15:12] <eroomde> Willdude123: probably just the internet
[15:12] <eroomde> doubt there are many good books about it
[15:12] <Laurenceb> shannon + some analysis of where the noise is coming from
[15:12] <eroomde> and the difficult bit is more 'coding' than 'arduino'
[15:12] <Laurenceb> e.g. CDMA doesnt buy you anything
[15:12] <Willdude123> Hmm
[15:12] <Laurenceb> that extra bandwidth isnt real
[15:12] <Laurenceb> its just narrow band in another vector space
[15:13] <Laurenceb> <mattbrejza> if you have two schemes that use 100kHz, and a fixed output power, but one uses more carriers and lower symbol rate, why is the more carriers one better?
[15:13] <mattbrejza> cba to actually do the maths mind you
[15:13] <Laurenceb> it isnt
[15:13] <Laurenceb> but that isnt out situation
[15:13] <eroomde> i think i cba to do the maths
[15:13] <eroomde> because i keep not ba to do the maths
[15:13] <eroomde> but actually if you can't do the maths then you don't understand it
[15:13] <Laurenceb> calculate the numbers for 50bps rtty and dominoex
[15:13] <eroomde> so i should do it for my own satisfaction
[15:13] <mattbrejza> im speaking in general rather than our channel
[15:13] <Laurenceb> and you will see its not the same
[15:14] <Laurenceb> rtty is ~1hz/bps
[15:15] <Laurenceb> dominoex is ~6hz/bps
[15:15] <mattbrejza> id say its 1.5hz/bps for rtty
[15:15] <Laurenceb> so 4 times then
[15:16] <mattbrejza> you cant really compare to domex though
[15:16] <Laurenceb> sure
[15:16] <mattbrejza> also i think it actually has a source code
[15:16] <Laurenceb> this is a really basic comparison
[15:16] <Laurenceb> im just getting at the basic theory of why it is better here
[15:16] <Laurenceb> you want to lose spectral efficiency
[15:16] <Laurenceb> if you are power limited
[15:17] <Laurenceb> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/d/a/5da4ee296242ff06ad38fd97d1911cb3.png
[15:17] <Laurenceb> capacity is linear with bandwidth
[15:17] <mattbrejza> tbh im not sure if were are really power limited, but lets leave that (bearing in mind 600 baud works, and that uses 1/2 the avaliable BW)
[15:17] <Laurenceb> but not with signal to noise
[15:18] <Laurenceb> we are limited to either 10dBm or whatever our weight limited batteries can support
[15:18] <Laurenceb> so power limited
[15:18] <mattbrejza> although increasing BW reduces SNR
[15:18] <Laurenceb> sure
[15:18] <mattbrejza> for the same output power
[15:18] <Laurenceb> but its nonlinear
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[15:19] <Laurenceb> so the extra bandwidth wins by MILES
[15:19] <mattbrejza> yea
[15:19] <Laurenceb> plot it
[15:19] <Laurenceb> for 50bps, as you tend to ~1KHz bandwidth the effect trends off
[15:20] <Laurenceb> i tried this for multiple protocols, and mfsk-64 won
[15:20] <Laurenceb> so i implimented it on an avr, and it did give best performance
[15:20] <Laurenceb> obviously there is FEC coding gain etc
[15:20] <Laurenceb> but its an easy simple way to find whats bets
[15:21] <Laurenceb> *best
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[15:21] <mattbrejza> i might simulate M={2,4,16,64} MFSK for a fixed BW and see what wins
[15:21] <Laurenceb> this is also why wifi/bluetooth etc are so piss poor
[15:21] <Laurenceb> they aim for lots of bandwidth in a narrow channel
[15:22] <Laurenceb> with QAM
[15:22] <Laurenceb> giving poor power efficiency
[15:22] <Laurenceb> shannon is basically saying you have to choose: power efficiency or spectral efficiency
[15:22] <Laurenceb> can;t have both
[15:23] <mattbrejza> well they use all the avaliable BW then increase the bits/symbol until they run out of SNR, surely thats all they can do
[15:23] <Laurenceb> well its a complex tradeoff
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[15:23] <mattbrejza> too many parameters
[15:23] <Laurenceb> if the bands were wider the performance would improve massivly
[15:24] <Laurenceb> but the world is more complex
[15:24] <Laurenceb> luckily we want a few tens of bps in a big emptyish ISM band
[15:24] <Laurenceb> so we are lucky
[15:24] <mattbrejza> but when you have some, you always want more
[15:25] <mattbrejza> the largest ISM band with no DC issues being 27MHz
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[15:27] <Tramvai> x-f: Hey mate
[15:27] <mattbrejza> anyone actually calucated the capacity for 3kHz of 434?
[15:28] <mattbrejza> the issue being working out what SNR we can get in 3kHz
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> 3khz should be 'easy'
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> 3kbits/s
[15:29] <Laurenceb> fail
[15:29] <Laurenceb> its _slightly_ more complex
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> The question is probably better framed as something like:
[15:30] <Laurenceb> mattbrejza: capacity depends on what range you want
[15:30] <Laurenceb> it you do the numbers for a low NF LNA, 15dBi antenni and 10dBm, its a lot
[15:30] <Laurenceb> a few Kbps
[15:31] <Laurenceb> at 1000Km
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> At what raw channel bandwidth can you maintain a BER of under 1% without FEC, and be xdB harder to receive than the current scheme
[15:31] <mattbrejza> as in using shannon
[15:31] <Laurenceb> yes, shannon doesnt say how to do it
[15:31] <Laurenceb> shannon says a few Kbps from memory
[15:31] <Laurenceb> imm do the numbers when i get back from the corner shop...
[15:31] <mattbrejza> so 1/2 to a 1/3 of that maybe
[15:33] <Jess--> I tried some experiments with rtty and increasing split / baud rate on an rfm22
[15:33] <Jess--> wound up with 2400 baud and a split of 200kc
[15:33] <Jess--> was still decodable
[15:33] <mattbrejza> with what>
[15:33] <mattbrejza> ?
[15:33] <mattbrejza> and at what distance
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> 200kc will have lots of crap though
[15:34] <Jess--> fcd pro+, 2 copies of hdsr to close down the split for decoding software
[15:34] <Laurenceb> ok back
[15:34] <Laurenceb> lets do this XD
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> the priblem is you only - in that case - have about 4800hz or so - maybe 10khz you care about - and the remaining 180khz are simply noise which is in your passband doing bad things.
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[15:34] <Jess--> and yes it was very very nasty
[15:34] <Laurenceb> so assume 1000km, 10dBm, 15dBi
[15:35] <Laurenceb> 4dB NF
[15:35] <Laurenceb> k?
[15:35] <mattbrejza> i want to know how you intend to work out rx SNR from all this
[15:35] <Laurenceb> assume thermal noise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_noise
[15:35] <mattbrejza> but yea seems reasonable
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> Isn't skyglow significant at 70cm?
[15:36] Action: SpeedEvil forgets.
[15:36] <Laurenceb> so proportional to bandwidth
[15:36] <Laurenceb> 1KHz is -114+4=-110dBm
[15:37] <mattbrejza> (i did try this once but probably messed it up)
[15:37] <Laurenceb> we'll use that as a reference
[15:37] <Laurenceb> then free space path loss is http://www.qsl.net/pa2ohh/jsffield.htm
[15:38] <mattbrejza> yep
[15:38] <Laurenceb> -130.2dB
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> What is the minimum antenna people are receiving the current setup at at say 500km, and how many dB margin is there.
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> That would be the most relevant info, I'd think
[15:38] <Laurenceb> so -120dBm at the receiver
[15:39] <mattbrejza> 15dBi is reasonable @ 1000km
[15:39] <Jess--> worst case I would assume for rx antenna would be 1/4 wave whip
[15:39] <Laurenceb> so 20dB SNR
[15:39] <mattbrejza> (in 1kHz)
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Jess--: I mean - existing recievers of past payloads that have successfully received at 500km
[15:39] <Laurenceb> C=1000*log_2(101)
[15:40] <Laurenceb> 6.7Kbps
[15:40] <mattbrejza> i think when i tried this, i multiplied the thermal noise by reciever gain
[15:40] <Laurenceb> oops
[15:40] <Laurenceb> hmm
[15:41] <Laurenceb> no i think that violates the second law
[15:41] <Laurenceb> you canna do that captin
[15:42] <Laurenceb> so yeah, 6.7Kbps using the assumption i made
[15:42] <mattbrejza> anyway rx SNR seems simple enough, add NF to thermal as the noise bit, then signal - FSPL
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: that neglects skyglow (is this the right term) and manmade interference.
[15:43] <Laurenceb> yeah, but its HUGE :P
[15:43] <Laurenceb> we require an order of magnitude less throughput
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> Two, even, with sane coding.
[15:43] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> Arguably three.
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[15:44] <mattbrejza> skyglow being much more than thermal?
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> I remembered the term being 'total atmospheric emissions in the band of interest'
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> I've probably misremembered.
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> My most common experience of ham is in between bread.
[15:45] <Laurenceb> http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a359931.pdf
[15:45] <mattbrejza> a better way to get SNR would be to look at the BER on an average flight, and use that to work out SNR (assuming fldigis' SNR reading to be shit)
[15:45] <Laurenceb> figure1 looks cold
[15:45] <mattbrejza> or rather realistic, not sure about better
[15:46] <Laurenceb> figure3 looks hot
[15:47] <LeoBodnar> Don't forget to clean pigeon dang from horn antenna
[15:48] <LeoBodnar> Done!
[15:49] <mattbrejza> fig 3 implying at 100MHz you have to use T=10^5 when calculating thermal noise>
[15:49] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:49] <mattbrejza> HF kinda sucks
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> i guess the ionosphere is hot
[15:50] <mattbrejza> well at least it goes log10(T)
[15:51] <mattbrejza> at 434 that wipes 10dB off? (going from T=300 to T=3000)
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[15:53] <Laurenceb> yeah
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[15:53] <Laurenceb> but no ionospheric reflection
[15:54] <mattbrejza> which must make HF worse, if its reflecting all the crap from a different city into you
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[16:02] <Willdude123> How come this ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox6 says to link tx to tx and rx to rx?
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[16:05] <mattbrejza> http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/p/R-REC-P.372-10-200910-I!!PDF-E.pdf Laurenceb / SpeedEvil
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[16:07] <eroomde> Willdude123: dunno, that must be wrong
[16:07] <eroomde> i spotted a few wrong things on that page within a coupla secs
[16:07] <Willdude123> But I tried it and it works.
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[16:07] <Willdude123> :)
[16:07] <eroomde> advice caution
[16:07] <eroomde> maybe arduino defines tx and rx in a different ref frame
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[16:10] <rogerponts> Hi, I'm working on the simpliest version of an HAB that I'd seen at this community, I'll do it with an arduino uno, the GPS module for the Arduino and the NTX2/NRX2, like the STRATODEAN and I need help with the tracking system (I've a budget of 290 ¬,it's enough money for a project like that ?)
[16:11] <rogerponts> sorry for the lenght and the english (I'm from catalonia)
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> rogerponts: Should be.
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> If you have the radio
[16:12] <eroomde> rogerponts: the usb receivers used by rtl-sdr, in combination with the 'habamp' are a very cheap solution
[16:12] <eroomde> the performance won't be quite as good as a proper amateur radio receiver
[16:12] <eroomde> but it should be good enough
[16:13] <rogerponts> if the radio is something like this http://ukhas.org.uk/_detail/guides:ft817.jpg?id=guides%3Alinkingarduinotontx2 i don't have it
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[16:13] <rogerponts> eoomde the online thing that I want to download from the ballon is the GPS data
[16:14] <eroomde> rogerponts: indeed, that's what most people do
[16:14] <eroomde> what you linked to is an example of an amateur radio receiver
[16:14] <eroomde> it is good but probably quite expensive
[16:14] <rogerponts> yes
[16:14] <eroomde> for the cheap option read this: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:sdr_tracker
[16:14] <rogerponts> ok
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[16:15] <M0CJM_Neil> Evening all, just got in. Did B-4 give up at lunchtime?
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[16:16] <eroomde> yes
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[16:19] <LeoBodnar> M0CJM_Neil: Yes, it kept going for 19 hours
[16:20] <LeoBodnar> On a single AAA.
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[16:20] <M0CJM_Neil> Hi LeoBodnar, wow thats cool! I popped my head in the shack at 7:15 this morning expecting all to be dead quiet and low and behold it was still going for it! Congats on a great flight
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[16:24] <LeoBodnar> Cheers M0CJM_Neil thanks for tracking it through the night
[16:26] <rogerponts> eroomde: what tuner would you recommend me ?
[16:26] <M0CJM_Neil> No worries LeoBodnar, more than happy to help out
[16:29] <M0CJM_Neil> LeoBodnar So I guess as far as we know its still off drifting somewhere
[16:32] <LeoBodnar> Yes M0CJM_Neil it most probably does
[16:32] <LeoBodnar> daveake snapped a picture of it an hour before we lost its TX
[16:33] <eroomde> rogerponts: any of the ones on that list
[16:33] <eroomde> see what you can find
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[16:34] <eroomde> look also at http://www.rtlsdr.org/
[16:35] <eroomde> note that this is all more complicated to set up than spending money on a more conventional amateur radio receiver
[16:35] <eroomde> that's the price you pay
[16:35] <mattbrejza> they also need a more decent computer
[16:35] <M0CJM_Neil> LeoBodnar Is Daveake's picture available?
[16:36] <mattbrejza> i reckon its a spec of dirt :P
[16:36] <mattbrejza> he posted it earlier
[16:36] <M0CJM_Neil> can you use this mirc chat thing to search for posts?
[16:36] <LeoBodnar> It's not exactly a passport photo. Use imagination to make up the missing details http://i.imgur.com/0bPMGQY.jpg :)
[16:37] <M0CJM_Neil> The little back smudge bottom right?
[16:38] <rogerponts> eroomde: yes, but I prefer spending more time to make it work than spending money that I don't have
[16:38] <LeoBodnar> yep Dave said it was and he is the man that can be trusted
[16:39] <Ugi> it's a little balloon 7km in the air - that looks pretty much like I would expect!
[16:39] <mattbrejza> im not sure how confident dave is about the photo tbh
[16:40] <Ugi> D'you know if Hixwork's around guys?
[16:40] <LeoBodnar> Dave went in his car right underneath it
[16:40] <LeoBodnar> I wouldn't use it as evidence in court :)
[16:41] <mattbrejza> [12:09] <daveake> no not a dodgy pixel it's only on that frame
[16:41] <mattbrejza> [12:09] <daveake> hmm actually ..
[16:41] <mattbrejza> [12:09] <daveake> ... next frame shows the same bit of cloud and it's not there
[16:41] <mattbrejza> [12:09] <daveake> oh well
[16:41] <mattbrejza> so who knows
[16:41] <LeoBodnar> Oh, OK
[16:42] <LeoBodnar> Good try though
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[17:04] <rogerponts> eroomde: for example with this tuner: https://www.cosycave.co.uk/product.php?id_product=288 and with a homemade antenna like this: http://makezine.com/projects/homemade-yagi-antenna/ would work ?
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[17:09] <bertrik> what happened to B-4? dead battery?
[17:09] <bertrik> oh, sorry, for asking the obvious ...
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[17:13] <LazyLeopard> Spot the voltage reported in the final position. ;)
[17:15] <eroomde> rogerponts: yes that should work fine
[17:15] <eroomde> but it's worthing getting a habamp or similar to use with the usb receiver
[17:15] <eroomde> because by theemselves their have very poor rejection of out-of-band signals
[17:17] <[1]chrisstubbs> Oh dear lord "Output Waveform: Modified Sinus Wave"
[17:17] <[1]chrisstubbs> chrisstubbs
[17:17] <[1]chrisstubbs> oh darn left IRC logged in at work
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[17:18] Nick change: [1]chrisstubbs -> chrisstubbs
[17:22] <rogerponts> how much costs a habamp, more or less
[17:22] <x-f> Tramvai, hiya
[17:22] <x-f> rogerponts, http://ava.upuaut.net/store/?route=product/product&product_id=83
[17:24] <rogerponts> I think is a lot because I have a budget of 290 ¬
[17:24] <Tramvai> hey, x-f, did you recover your balloon's payload successfully? :)
[17:26] <x-f> Tramvai, yeah, we got lost a bit on the chase, :) but finally got close to the landing site, heard strong enough signal again and found it in the forrest
[17:29] <x-f> i'll try to write it all down and then send it to you too
[17:29] <x-f> it was fun :)
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[17:34] <Maxell> V2? is it better than v1? (v0?)
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[17:40] <Tramvai> awesome, thanks
[17:40] <Tramvai> Are there any pictures online? :)
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[17:45] <x-f> no, not yet, had a really busy day yesterday, so i haven't looked at them, but there will from the launch and the recovery, a few from the onboard camera, because it failed not long after the launch
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[17:46] <Tramvai> oh
[17:46] <Willdude123> What is an ack packet?
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[17:46] <x-f> Willdude123, acknowledgement
[17:47] <eroomde> it's a packet that says 'I ACKnowledge what you just said to me'
[17:48] <eroomde> so on the ublox you might tell it something and it will say whatever it is that ubloxes say when they ack
[17:48] <Willdude123> ping M6KZT
[17:48] <eroomde> which is totally totally totally beyond my memory
[17:48] <eroomde> something like 0xa5 0x01 for ack
[17:48] <eroomde> and 0xa5 0x00 for nack
[17:48] <eroomde> or soemthing
[17:48] <Willdude123> Does UBX proprietary work in the same kind of way?
[17:48] <eroomde> it's been like 4 years since i last touched a ublox
[17:48] <eroomde> yes, this is ubx that i'm describing
[17:49] <Willdude123> As in like nmea?
[17:49] <eroomde> no
[17:49] <eroomde> well, ubx is how you talk to it
[17:49] <eroomde> and how it will answer you back
[17:49] <eroomde> for configuration stuff
[17:49] <eroomde> and then you can optionally either have it keep on mainly spitting out nmea
[17:50] <eroomde> or tell it to stfu and only respond when you ask it for a specific thing. or whatever
[17:50] <eroomde> there are lots of options
[17:50] <eroomde> i guess in your case you want to just put it into airborne mode
[17:50] <eroomde> and check you get an ack back from that
[17:51] <Willdude123> And does the UBX proprietary method have everything in the same place, like will the same character range always be a given field?
[17:51] <eroomde> yes
[17:51] <Willdude123> So in short will the length of the sentences be the same.
[17:51] <Willdude123> Oh right
[17:51] <eroomde> well, they'll be exactly what the datasheet says they'll be
[17:51] <Willdude123> Yippe no string exploding.
[17:52] <eroomde> so it will say in the datasheet that bytes 2-6 9say) will contain a floating point latitute (or whatever)
[17:52] <eroomde> (say)*
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[18:28] <Willdude123> eroomde: It doesn't say the byte no, just field no.
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[18:31] <jcoxon> evening all
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[18:32] <Willdude123> jcoxon: Do you know much about the UBX proprietary protocol?
[18:35] <jcoxon> some
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[18:38] <jcoxon> evening eroomde
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[18:39] <jdtanner> evening
[18:39] <jcoxon> excellent pico flight there - very cool
[18:40] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> Upu
[18:41] <Willdude123> Upu, is there a fixed number of bytes in a ubx sentence?
[18:41] <arko> WOW
[18:41] <arko> nice flight LeoBodnar
[18:42] <arko> "still up there monday...." haha
[18:42] <craag> Upu: Do you know where I can get a replacement LNA for the habamp?
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[18:42] <craag> I err might have blown up mine..
[18:43] <Upu> haha
[18:43] <Upu> I can post you one
[18:43] <LeoBodnar> Yes, run out of electrical juices.
[18:43] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, good work
[18:43] <jcoxon> very high float
[18:43] <jcoxon> am impressed
[18:43] <craag> Upu: Fantastic, how much do you want for it?
[18:43] <Upu> They are about £3.50 or something
[18:43] <Upu> I'll check tomorrow
[18:44] <craag> Ok cheers.
[18:44] <mclane_> LeoBodnar: congrats for the flight!
[18:44] <craag> For the record, it doesn't like 50W of 144mhz rf too much, now pulls ~2A from it's power supply, and has no gain..
[18:44] <LeoBodnar> daveake: Thank you for staying with B-4 during these difficult for all of us times! XD
[18:44] <daveake> LeoBodnar, Tell me sometime how you managed to get it to follow me across the country :)
[18:45] <LeoBodnar> thanks guys
[18:45] <LeoBodnar> I am chuffed
[18:45] <LeoBodnar> We have our people everywhere you know daveake
[18:46] <daveake> My car was parked outside where I was working, and I popped out 3 times to retune as my receiver was getting so hot in the sun
[18:46] <LeoBodnar> What do your customers say?
[18:46] <daveake> Next time I'll set up Teamviewer so I can do it remotely :)
[18:46] <daveake> Oh they didn't notice :)
[18:47] <LeoBodnar> jcoxon: I really like foil balloons now!
[18:47] <jcoxon> haha
[18:47] <jcoxon> the best thing is latex floaters
[18:47] <LeoBodnar> Shame B-3 transmitter got lost over London. It's probably in France now
[18:47] <jcoxon> floating at 30km is cooler
[18:47] <craag> Yeah LeoBodnar please do a latex float next!
[18:48] <craag> You can afford a few more batteries on that.
[18:48] <LeoBodnar> I know nowt about latex stuff.
[18:48] <daveake> Yeah that weekend when Upu and I floated a couple over Europe was great fun
[18:48] <jcoxon> i'll do one soon
[18:48] <LeoBodnar> NOt that I know anything about foil either!
[18:48] <Upu> time to learn :)
[18:48] <jcoxon> when my iss stuff works
[18:48] <daveake> Latex: grossly underfill and try to avoid trees
[18:48] <LeoBodnar> I am keen to try solar panels.
[18:49] <daveake> Even ones half a mile away :p
[18:49] <LeoBodnar> It's deteriorating under UV as far as I know. Non-leaking foil can go for longer possibly?
[18:50] <Upu> just make one out of Mylar and have done with it
[18:50] <LeoBodnar> Tried it, impossible to glue!
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> Mylar - meh.
[18:50] <Upu> hot sealer
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> Foil.
[18:51] <LeoBodnar> It does not melt.
[18:51] <Upu> its possible someones done it
[18:51] <LeoBodnar> It burns through without melting
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[18:52] <LeoBodnar> Maybe mylar canopy over regular nylon aluminised one to stop solar gain and burst/leak?
[18:53] <LeoBodnar> Has anybody put latex inside a net enclosure to make it pseudo-super-pressured yet?
[18:53] Action: SpeedEvil has just been putting up a fruitcage.
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> It's made of polyester woven green string, and is quite light.
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[18:56] <LeoBodnar> This contraption might float
[18:56] <craag> Hmm I wonder if you could do the net thing easily with a 100g latex.
[18:56] <craag> It would be pico then.
[18:56] <daveake> yup
[18:57] <daveake> I've had similar thoughts
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[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[18:57] <daveake> Not looked at details yet of what net material etc
[18:57] <Willdude123> Is there a fixed number of bytes in a ubx sentence?
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[18:57] <craag> Or how fine the mesh would need to be?
[18:58] <daveake> another good question no idea :)
[18:58] <Hix-Android> Is spacenear slow or just my phone?
[18:58] <GW8RAK> Evening. Has anyone on here tried a zero pressure balloon?
[18:58] <craag> Hix-Android: It's slow, lots of points.
[18:58] <daveake> brb need ice cream
[18:58] <Hix-Android> Ok
[18:59] <Hix-Android> Trying to test chase app. Am i showing on a computer?
[18:59] <jcoxon> GW8RAK, to tell the truth we've always discouraged it in the UK
[18:59] <jcoxon> they are very big
[19:00] <GW8RAK> Absolutely, but it was more an academic question. I was trying to find out how big they need to be for a 50g payload
[19:00] <chrisstubbs> Hix-Android, yeah
[19:00] <GW8RAK> 500g that should be
[19:00] <Hix-Android> Cool
[19:00] <jcoxon> gosh i used to know
[19:00] <Hix-Android> Andirc is pants btw. No nick completion
[19:01] <GW8RAK> I was looking at some films at work today, 5um thick and sealable
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[19:01] <Willdude123> Hix-Android: I use irssi connectbot.
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> hi GW8RAK
[19:02] <GW8RAK> Evening Lunar_Lander.
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[19:03] <GW8RAK> Good, enjoying the hot weather
[19:03] <GW8RAK> You?
[19:03] <Lunar_Lander> quite OK, thanks :)
[19:03] <Lunar_Lander> probably will fly again soon
[19:03] <Hix-Android> Cheers willdude123 ill look into it
[19:04] <GW8RAK> Wasting my time tonight scanning for 6m repeaters. Doesn't sound as if they are ever used
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[19:04] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[19:04] <Willdude123> Can someone answer my question please?
[19:05] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, let me find the datasgheet
[19:05] <Willdude123> Tomorrow I become a teenager,
[19:05] <Willdude123> And my brain will start getting messed up.
[19:05] <chrisstubbs> SouOo sounds dangerous
[19:06] <GW8RAK> I've forgotten what being a teenager was like
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> hi chrisstubbs
[19:07] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, http://bit.ly/14DSsVz page 91
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[19:08] <chrisstubbs> Looks like they are always 10 bytes (if I can read)
[19:08] <G0TDJ_Steve> Good evening folks
[19:08] <LeoBodnar> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLuEY6jN6gY
[19:08] <Willdude123> Does it say what each byte is?
[19:08] <LeoBodnar> Hi G0TDJ_Steve
[19:08] <chrisstubbs> Yeah its all in there, lots to read :)
[19:08] <G0TDJ_Steve> Hey LeoBodnar When did B4 land? I left my kit on tracking all day.
[19:09] <G0TDJ_Steve> You OK chrisstubbs?
[19:09] <chrisstubbs> Evening G0TDJ_Steve, not bad thanks
[19:09] <G0TDJ_Steve> Coolio Chris
[19:09] <chrisstubbs> Very tired from all the excitment yesterday, and I only had to walk accross the road to launch!
[19:10] <G0TDJ_Steve> chrisstubbs: LOL... I had a VERY hard long day today. Tell you 'bout it later. Just got back, now I have to sort some sort of evening meal out.
[19:10] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs: page 91 as marked on the doc or actual page 91?
[19:11] <chrisstubbs> will page 91 is marked 91 for me :P
[19:11] <G0TDJ_Steve> I'm gonna go AFK for a it. Catch up with the stream later chrisstubbs & LeoBodnar
[19:11] Nick change: G0TDJ_Steve -> G0TDJ_AFK
[19:11] <chrisstubbs> laters steve!
[19:11] <Willdude123> The ack ibe>
[19:11] <Willdude123> *one?
[19:11] <chrisstubbs> Were you after the length of any UBX byte or just the ack?
[19:12] <Willdude123> Any
[19:12] <Willdude123> So will a sentence be of a fixed size?
[19:12] <chrisstubbs> the ubx are, not sure about the others
[19:12] <chrisstubbs> but all the information you need is there
[19:13] <chrisstubbs> s/ubx/ack sorry brain is asleep
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[19:15] <Willdude123> Looks as if it isn't fixed then.
[19:15] Action: daveake haz ice cream
[19:15] <daveake> world = better
[19:15] <LeoBodnar> I cud haz one NOW
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[19:16] <chrisstubbs> raspberry ice cream?
[19:16] <daveake> There's a Tesco just down the road from the hotel. Sorted.
[19:18] <daveake> A thing called a Chocolotino
[19:18] <daveake> Actually that's a lie. There are 2 of them.
[19:18] <daveake> Actually that's also a lie. There *were* 2 of them.
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[19:19] <Willdude123> Is it better to use tinygps or write my own gps code?
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, so how is cornwall?
[19:20] <daveake> No idea.
[19:20] <daveake> This is Devon
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[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:30] <LeoBodnar> Upu, jcoxon I am looking at http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data , what was this OZZIE3 thingy on 15/07/12, 0.21m3 custom that floated at 7300m?
[19:30] <LeoBodnar> What was it made of?
[19:31] <jcoxon> oh i'm not sure
[19:31] <jcoxon> we'd need navrac for that
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> B-4 floated at 7700m during the day which seems quite unusual for 36". Probably due to light payload?
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[19:33] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:34] <arko> LeoBodnar: how did you setup the filling and tuning neck lift?
[19:34] <jcoxon> so the lighter the payload the higher the float
[19:34] <jcoxon> but that isn't necessarily what you want
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[19:34] <jcoxon> you want a low flight initially
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[19:34] <jcoxon> so you can accomadate later floats
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> I got neutral buoyancy with the payload and then added a bit more. Measured it to be 1.5g over which suited me fine.
[19:35] <LeoBodnar> jcoxon: what do you mean by later floats? Daylight climb?
[19:36] <arko> oh wow
[19:36] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:36] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:picoatlas:picoatlasix#images
[19:37] <M6KZT> Willdude123: good evening
[19:37] <Upu> Ozzie was Navracs home brew Mylar tube I think
[19:37] <Willdude123> Oh hi.
[19:37] <Willdude123> Did you find out how much it's gonna cost you?
[19:37] <Upu> He made mylar tubes LeoBodnar
[19:38] <LeoBodnar> I have run some figures and even 20C warmer He inside due to the Sun heating takes the balloon from minimally possible floating state (0.2psi) to bursting pressure (0.7psi) It seems to be a very fine balance to achieve...
[19:38] <Upu> you can heat seal them I'm sure
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[19:38] <Upu> floating is a balance
[19:38] <chrisstubbs> Missed out on a free ESD bag sealer from work a couple of months ago. dammit!
[19:38] <M6KZT> Willdude123: no sorry had a crazy busy day, I need to find a way to weigh it first
[19:38] <Willdude123> Do you have scales?
[19:38] <M6KZT> Willdude123: nope.. only the kitchen kind
[19:39] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, so winter launches
[19:39] <jcoxon> longer nights
[19:39] <Willdude123> They might do.
[19:39] <Willdude123> Well, how long is it? I'll google the weight.
[19:39] <Willdude123> 15kg per 100m
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> jcoxon: there's a good side to everything!
[19:40] <M6KZT> Willdude123: 3KG then!
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> Upu: I mean keep it in the air during the night and not burst it during the day.
[19:40] <Upu> I know its tough
[19:40] <Upu> though achievable with Latex
[19:40] <Upu> and you can go along way with a latex :)
[19:41] <Willdude123> Jeez.
[19:41] <Willdude123> 13 quid 35
[19:41] <fsphil> snow is great to launch from. covers all the sharp stones
[19:41] <Willdude123> I guess that's cheap for westflex/
[19:41] <fsphil> though not being able to use your own frozen fingers is a bit of a pain
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> Isn't latex unstable equilibrium in floating? It either climbs all the time or descends all the time. You need a latex with high rigidity just before bursting point.
[19:42] <Willdude123> Parcelforce will do it for 10.77(+VAT)
[19:42] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, some latex are suprisingly stable
[19:42] <Upu> generally if you under fill a 1600g it will float
[19:42] <jcoxon> mainly the howyee 1600
[19:42] <fsphil> the 100g seems oddly easy to float
[19:42] <Upu> however it can make for some sketchy launches
[19:42] <Upu> especially with H2
[19:42] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, i wonder if the key is to get teh balloon it to a float
[19:43] <jcoxon> foil that is
[19:45] <Upu> I think the lighter payloads are making a noticeable difference
[19:45] <Willdude123> M6KZT: What's your paypal email :/
[19:45] <M6KZT> Willdude123: I'lll give you that and let you know the cost when it's posted and I have a tracking number for you
[19:46] <Willdude123> Ah thanks. But please don't buy tracking.
[19:46] <Willdude123> Too expensive.
[19:47] <LeoBodnar> I might stick a sample of latex stuff onto a rubber testing machine I have made with a friend of mine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np78KE8OX3Q
[19:47] <M6KZT> Willdude123: the 48 hour service upto 30kg is only £4 + vat
[19:47] <Willdude123> Really?
[19:47] <Willdude123> The site says it's 10.77 plus vat.
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[19:48] <M6KZT> Willdude123: send me your delivery details please m6kzt@futile.net
[19:49] <Willdude123> Sure.
[19:49] <Willdude123> Where did you get the £4 quote from?
[19:49] <Willdude123> Shoot.
[19:50] <Willdude123> Accidentally sent it before typing whole address.
[19:50] <M6KZT> parcelforce website 2 day service
[19:50] <M6KZT> though that is 'from £4'
[19:50] <Willdude123> Post office says 10.77
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> I like foil balloons because they can be launched on a whim when you feel like it without going through red tape with CAA.
[19:51] <fsphil> mmmm
[19:51] <fsphil> lower altitude does make them a tad more difficult to track over distance
[19:52] <Willdude123> M6KZT: See http://www.parcelforce.com/sites/default/files/Retail%20Tariff%20Online%20PDF%20FINAL%20270313.pdf
[19:52] <M6KZT> Willdude123: ok yes the quote is express48 Guaranteed 2 working days Tracked £10.77 + VAT
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> Higher = colder
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[19:54] <Willdude123> Meh.
[19:54] <Willdude123> Nvm, I'll paypal you that then. Is your paypal address the same as your email?
[19:55] <Guest97955> Received email: Anthony Stirk "[UKHAS] Launch Saturday 13/07/2013 Brightwalton"
[19:56] <fsphil> spot the bot
[19:56] <mfa298> looks like griffonbot is still having an identity crisis
[19:58] <daveake> He's in disguise
[19:58] <Willdude123> M6KZT: 10.76 right?
[19:58] <LeoBodnar> Blew the cover now!
[20:01] <mfa298> shouldn't have used hydrogen then
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> He-He
[20:12] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data#graphs_8_7_13
[20:13] <LeoBodnar> Oh, nice analysis. Is this nighttime (=pure) float?
[20:13] <Willdude123> Has anyone found out what does happen when a helium balloon ignites?
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[20:14] <LeoBodnar> 50g payload == no float?
[20:14] Nick change: Laurence2 -> Laurenceb_
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> hi
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/okNbCT5.png
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> ^why you need bandwidth
[20:14] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, umm its from the table
[20:14] <jcoxon> all the 1x92 balloons
[20:15] <jcoxon> payload mass vs float altitude
[20:15] <LeoBodnar> No worries, difference is not significant.
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[20:15] <Willdude123> How do dBs work?
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[20:17] <cuddykid> daveake: BOC tried to screw me over
[20:17] <cuddykid> invoice came through for £424 lol - just like you warned
[20:17] <daveake> hah!
[20:17] <cuddykid> charging for annual rental
[20:17] <daveake> Yup
[20:17] <daveake> It's automatic
[20:17] <cuddykid> had a moan with them on the phone just - silly people!
[20:17] <daveake> Phone and they'll change it
[20:17] <cuddykid> yeah, they've sorted it now
[20:18] <Willdude123> M6KZT: Still around?
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[20:21] <LeoBodnar> jcoxon You gave me an idea for a graph that show the necessary free lift range for given payload weight to achieve float.
[20:21] <gonzo__> you have to request monthly rental every bottle you have
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[20:24] <Jess--> big lift on 2m at the min, Dover stations making it into the lincolnshire repeater (gb3fr) also hearing gb3nl on same freq
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[20:26] <Willdude123> How do dBs work?
[20:26] <mfa298> what bit about dB is confusing you Willdude123
[20:27] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, do it
[20:27] <fsphil> gonzo__: odd. I've never specified monthly
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[20:27] <Willdude123> Logarithms
[20:27] <Jess--> every 3db is equal to 100% increase in power
[20:27] <Willdude123> How is it diferrent?
[20:27] <Willdude123> AH right.
[20:27] <LeoBodnar> Doing it!
[20:27] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, i've added to more graphs
[20:28] <Willdude123> Increase over what though?
[20:28] <mfa298> dB is just a ratio of input to output
[20:28] <lz1dev> usually 1 of whetever you are messuing
[20:28] <gonzo__> fsphil, that was what they told me when I got the shock invoice
[20:28] <mfa298> with 0dB what you get out is the same as what you put in.
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> cool stats
[20:29] <fsphil> gonzo__: just got an invoice this-morning, had to quickly check :) all good
[20:29] <Willdude123> Ah right.
[20:29] <Willdude123> Hmmm w-2000 or w-50
[20:29] <fsphil> I just went to the local depot and picked one up
[20:29] <Willdude123> Decisions decisions.
[20:29] <mfa298> an amplifier will have a gain - so for every 3dB of gain the output will double
[20:29] <fsphil> unless the guy at the depot did it for me
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> I am assuming bursting delta P to be 0.7psa
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> From jcoxon / Upu work
[20:30] <jcoxon> ooo steve has actual data for that
[20:30] <jcoxon> let me hunt it down
[20:30] <mfa298> antennas it's slighly more complex as you're not really amplifying anything but your focusing where you get a signal from
[20:31] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:splat#test_balloons
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> That's where I got 0.7psi from :)
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> Let's set it as the standard bursting point for 36"ers
[20:32] <jcoxon> oh cool
[20:32] <jcoxon> that was rocketboy
[20:33] <Willdude123> Are watson, sharman and diamond the same people because they have incredibly similar antennas.
[20:33] <LeoBodnar> OK, cheers to rocketboy for testing them
[20:33] <jcoxon> we do science we do
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> :P
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[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> I can do Science me!
[20:34] <mfa298> Willdude123: as far as I know they're seperate companies, but if you're going to make a dual/tri band colinear of a certain size in a fibre glass tube there aren't many ways of doing it.
[20:36] <mfa298> Willdude123: personally I'd probably go with the dualband vertical. If you're interested in 6m make a dipole for that.
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[20:44] <chrisstubbs> Write up of my Cheapo4 flight yesterday: http://chris-stubbs.co.uk/wp/?p=319
[20:45] <M0CJM_Neil> \clear
[20:45] M0CJM_Neil (~neil@host86-143-86-155.range86-143.btcentralplus.com) left irc:
[20:45] <Jess--> if it helps anyone sharmans single section antennas are good (I use them with no isuues) however their multiple section antennas (2 / 3 sections that screw together) can have problems with water ingress
[20:46] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, would it help if I took some photos of the brackets/mast/x-50 on my house tommorow?
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> thanks chrisstubbs , reading :)
[20:49] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, i think thats enough graphs for me
[20:49] <LeoBodnar> I am making one too :)
[20:50] <jcoxon> just stick them on the wiki
[20:50] <jcoxon> night all
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[20:51] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs: Yes please.
[20:51] <chrisstubbs> Ok will do
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[20:56] <Willdude123> Man I want this http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/catalog/thermal-printer-p-695.html
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[21:00] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, Every time I go to the cinema I realise you are paying £10 for a bit of receipt paper
[21:00] <chrisstubbs> that would pay for itself in 2 trips if you took a mate
[21:00] <chrisstubbs> Dont think the idea hasnt passed me :P
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[21:02] <Geoff-G8DHE> Think about parking tickets etc.
[21:02] <Willdude123> chrisstubbs: How?
[21:02] Nick change: daveake__ -> daveake
[21:02] <Willdude123> I don;t understand.
[21:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> what do they use the printers for Willdude123
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[21:03] <Willdude123> For printing tickets.
[21:03] <Willdude123> Ah you could fake them with this.
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[21:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> Just a little program to create all the different fonts etc, headers and so on for all your favourite places ;-)
[21:04] <chrisstubbs> netbook in the back of car job
[21:05] <Willdude123> It would have serious consequences if you were caught.
[21:05] <chrisstubbs> Yeah it would be illegalz so dont do it
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[21:14] <Willdude123> I want to buy willdover.com cause it's 99p.
[21:15] <Willdude123> But I have no reason to, I have willdover.co.uk
[21:15] <LeoBodnar> Upu: Are you around?
[21:15] <Upu> I am
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[21:16] <LeoBodnar> Could you please look at http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data I have added a chart at the bottom. I am a bit worried about deleting stuff from other contributors. Wiki tags format is new to me
[21:17] <Willdude123> And I dom't pay for webhosting
[21:17] <Upu> its ok it keeps revision history
[21:17] <Upu> we can revert if you kill it
[21:17] <Willdude123> Upu, if I were to buy willdover.com, woukd there be much of an issue with changing my site for it?
[21:17] <Upu> no Will
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[21:18] <Willdude123> Hmm.
[21:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yopu could point both address's to the same site
[21:19] <Willdude123> Should I stay up until I'm a teenager or not?
[21:19] <Upu> no will go to bed
[21:20] <Upu> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLuEY6jN6gY <- from fsphil
[21:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its not a pretty sight for us to see ;-)
[21:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> Willdude123, You do have a reason to buy willdover.com also willdover.net because someone might buy them and link to this http://tinyurl.com/mjynz7m
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[21:24] <chrisstubbs> Lmao the car wash scene is so me
[21:25] <Willdude123> So bad I stopped watching half way throught.
[21:25] <Willdude123> What can I do at 13?
[21:27] <chrisstubbs> Sign up for facebook
[21:29] <Willdude123> Heh
[21:29] <Willdude123> Of course, I havemt done that alredady
[21:30] <chrisstubbs> Think thats the minium ages to get a paper round too, bad memories...
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[21:31] <mfa298> Geoff-G8DHE: Good link, I'd totally forgotten that.
[21:32] Action: mfa298 realises it's fsphil/Upu to blame for that originally - I should have looked at the links in posting order
[21:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> I just changed the short URL to get him again ;-)
[21:33] <fsphil> what's my fault now? :)
[21:36] <mfa298> reminding us of certain, brilliant Harry Enfield sketches
[21:39] <fsphil> ah ha
[21:39] <LeoBodnar> Did you post the video fsphil ? :)
[21:40] <fsphil> guilty
[21:40] <LeoBodnar> chrisstubbs: I like the payload ! :)
[21:41] <chrisstubbs> Cheers dude, Still got a long way to go until i'm beating yours though
[21:42] <LeoBodnar> It's a manbag :) !
[21:42] <chrisstubbs> LeoBodnar, So your payload used the Si chip from the rfm22b. How did you make it do domino with such small shifts? Come clever crystal pulling?
[21:42] <chrisstubbs> *some
[21:43] <LeoBodnar> It has high resolution PLL, much higher than RMF22 / Si4432
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> whats the res?
[21:44] Action: chrisstubbs googles :)
[21:44] <LeoBodnar> Si4462? I am getting lost in numers, hold on.
[21:44] <LeoBodnar> Yes, than Si446* series
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[21:46] <LeoBodnar> Fxtal/2^21
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/okNbCT5.png <- repost, thats for 50bps, the behaviour is interesting, if you can approach the shannon limit you dont need much bandwidth
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> surely theres a PLL factor in there?
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> as you multiply up
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> i suspect fldigi+RTTY is something between 1 and 10%
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> domineox probably buys you 20dB from that plot
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> maybe 25
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> actually no - RTTY is going to be around -5dB, dominoex around 25dB
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> so 30dB improvement id guess
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[21:53] <Laurenceb_> alternative way of looking at bottom axis is spectral efficiency/20
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[21:54] <Laurenceb_> erm not that simple - 1Khz=0.05bits/hz, 0.5Khz=0.1bits/hz etc
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[22:06] <Guest97955> Received email: Neil Toombes "Re: [UKHAS] Launch Saturday 13/07/2013 Brightwalton"
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[22:16] <chrisstubbs> Night all :)
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[23:12] <arko> aaannndd the uk is asleep
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> I'm not.
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> im not in the UK :P
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> I woke up after a 3 hour nap.
[23:12] <arko> well ok then
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[23:12] <SpeedEvil> 2
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> heading back soon :(
[23:13] <arko> where you at Laurenceb
[23:13] <Laurenceb_> Vermont
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: You could always become an illegal alien.
[23:13] <arko> murica?
[23:13] <Laurenceb_> yeah :P
[23:13] <arko> nice
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[23:16] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/DvW6GPP.jpg
[23:16] <Laurenceb_> i want this car
[23:16] <arko> oxygen?
[23:17] <Laurenceb_> yup
[23:18] <fsphil> it appears to be raining
[23:18] <fsphil> in Vermont
[23:19] <arko> with New Hampshire plates?
[23:19] <arko> well they are next to eachother
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> the slogan is kind of epic
[23:19] <arko> live free or die
[23:19] <arko> someone should get the plate "HARD"
[23:20] <fsphil> live free or spy
[23:20] <arko> lol
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> or "PRISM"
[23:21] <arko> for as messed up as PRISM is, its a damn good name
[23:24] <Laurenceb_> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/12/nsa_accused_of_crimes_against_slideware/
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> http://regmedia.co.uk/2013/06/12/new_prism_logo.jpg
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> ^fail is there
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[00:00] --- Tue Jul 9 2013