highaltitude.log.20130611

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[01:15] <heathkid> I hate *spinning* payload videos....
[01:16] <heathkid> makes me dizzy
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[02:12] <Vulspur> So I'm trying to figure out what RF frequency to use if I don't currently have a HAM license. Does anyone suggest using say 900 MHz vs. 433?
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[02:15] <Randomskk> Vulspur: what country are you in?
[02:16] <Vulspur> USA
[02:17] <Randomskk> I'd probably just get an amateur license or find someone with one and fly an APRS payload then
[02:17] <Randomskk> if you definitely wanted to do it without, 434MHz and just you receiving it
[02:19] <Vulspur> Awesome. Thank you!
[02:19] <Randomskk> the US has a good APRS system that you may use airborne
[02:19] <Randomskk> so worthwhile taking advantage of it
[02:21] <Vulspur> I think the tracking portion of this project is more intriguing to me vs. capturing pictures.
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[03:08] <heathkid> so easy to get a license these days (too easy)
[03:09] <heathkid> if you do.... learn Morse Code.... might save your life someday.... :)
[03:10] <heathkid> even if it's not "required" anymore...
[03:10] <heathkid> <sigh>
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[03:38] <Vulspur> i may get the license.
[03:39] <Vulspur> i have been looking over the required study material and it does not appear to be that bad
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[03:55] <KF7FER> Vulsupr: you really should, it's cheap and easy to get. Worst case take the practice tests on-line until you can pass
[03:55] <KF7FER> that's all I did: just keep taking tests until you get 90% or so, which is easy
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[04:00] <KF7FER> oops sorry didn't mean to mangle your nick Vulspur
[04:02] <KF7FER> btw I really owe fsphil.... thanks for posting that base91 encode routine. made adding telemetry to Trackuino easy
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[06:00] <ibanezmatt13_> Good Morning :)
[06:04] <ibanezmatt13_> I'm ordering my Pi Model A today, and I've purchased some Duracell Ni-MH AA rechargables for testing my stuff. Should be setup by the weekend. And, this weekend (god help me) I'm soldering everything onto some stripboard...
[06:25] <eroomde> good luck and take it steady
[06:26] <eroomde> and meter everything thoroughly for continuity where it should be and no continuity where it shouldn;t be
[06:26] <eroomde> before applying power
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[06:30] <ibanezmatt13_> ok, just one quick thing: What shall I use to break out certain lines on the stripboard?
[06:32] <ibanezmatt13_> Would a normal file be ok?
[06:33] <ibanezmatt13_> brb shower
[06:34] Nick change: Chetich -> Chetic
[06:35] <eroomde> you can get scrapers for veroboard
[06:35] <eroomde> it's a bit difficult really - normal scalpels are a bit too delicate
[06:35] <Darkside> i use a drill bit
[06:36] <eroomde> if you have the space, use a drill bit centred on a hole to cut through the copper track
[06:36] <Darkside> snap
[06:36] <eroomde> but if you need a thin break between holes, maybe a stanly knife with a few spare blades
[06:42] <ibanezmatt13_> A stanley knife would cut through th copper tracks?
[06:42] <ibanezmatt13_> the*
[06:42] <number10> yes
[06:42] <ibanezmatt13_> I'll just do that then :)
[06:43] <number10> another construction technique is to use square pad board and just wire the pins you need connected
[06:43] <number10> but of you have stripboard already use that
[06:44] <steve_____> I use a file
[06:44] <steve_____> or a hack saw blade
[06:44] <steve_____> just to scrape the copper off the top
[06:44] <ibanezmatt13_> I'll probably try a stanley knife first, that should work. Here's the stripboard diagram: https://www.dropbox.com/s/q0kr4vynmydth6y/scan0002.jpg
[06:45] <steve_____> I think a stanley knife will be too thin
[06:45] <Hes> Stanley knife is what I use, just cut the copper sides away from the sides of a hole
[06:45] <Hes> works really well. Two cuts per side of a hole, so 4 cuts per hole
[06:45] <Hes> to cut a little bit off. A single press of the knife would be too thin, yes.
[06:46] <ibanezmatt13_> That sounds like a good way to do it actually, never thought of that
[06:46] <Hes> It's also cleaner than a drill bit.
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[06:47] <ibanezmatt13_> If I just cut a few bits around the hole, that sounds like it'll do the job ok :)
[06:47] <eroomde> i'd make a thorough and strong recommendation to add a decoupling capacitor to the power input of your gps
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13_> to smoothen the signal?
[06:48] <eroomde> that would be a 100nF cermic capacitor between VCC and GND on the ublox
[06:48] <eroomde> but, importantly, right up close to the power pins
[06:48] <eroomde> it smooths the supply but it also supplies the current bursts required for switching devices
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13_> why does it have to be close to the VCC and Ground pins on the ubLox
[06:49] <eroomde> so, while we may think a ublox just pulls say 30mA continuously, it actually is a much scarier story (this is true for all digital devices)
[06:49] <eroomde> transistors use 99% of their power when they switch from one to off and vice versa
[06:50] <ibanezmatt13_> So a 100uf capacitor? I think I have several of those
[06:50] <eroomde> so actually instead of 30mA continuously, you get large spikes of possibly a couple of amps for a few nanoseconds when all the transistors switch on the clock edge, then the power drops down to almost zero for the dureation of the clock pulse, then another massive spike as the transistors switch back
[06:50] <ibanezmatt13_> few amps!?
[06:51] <eroomde> and long power lines actually resistor large changes in current flow (because of a property called indunctance)
[06:51] <eroomde> yes a few amps!
[06:51] <eroomde> but it averages out to 30mA (say) over time
[06:51] <ibanezmatt13_> does that not blow up the battery?
[06:51] <eroomde> nope
[06:51] <eroomde> because it's only afor a few ns
[06:51] <ibanezmatt13_> Ah right, didn't know that
[06:51] <eroomde> but, equally you don;t want the battery supplying it
[06:51] <eroomde> you want a local cap supplying it
[06:52] <ibanezmatt13_> I see, so 100uf?
[06:52] <eroomde> caps are very good at storing enough charge and letting it out quickly (ceramic caps anyway)
[06:52] <eroomde> nano
[06:52] <eroomde> 100nF
[06:52] <ibanezmatt13_> Oh right, what's that in uf?
[06:52] <eroomde> now i can answer why you want it close
[06:52] <ibanezmatt13_> ok
[06:52] <eroomde> aswell as minimising the track length and so minimising the inductance, there is another reason
[06:53] <eroomde> your antenna is basically some long bits of wire that you put a rapidly changing current through
[06:53] <eroomde> and that generates a rapidly changing electromagetic field - RF
[06:53] <ibanezmatt13_> ok
[06:53] <eroomde> you do that deloberately by design, cos you want to make an antenna
[06:53] <eroomde> but now say you have some long (say a few cm) power lines supplying your ublox
[06:54] <ibanezmatt13_> yep
[06:54] <eroomde> that ublox as we know wants large current spikes for a short time then almost no current for a time (bewteeen clock edges) and then another spike of current again and so on
[06:54] <eroomde> well, those high frequency changing current spikes are rather like what you're putting through your antenna
[06:55] <ibanezmatt13_> right
[06:55] <eroomde> and if you have long power lines, they will act just like an antenna, and start emitting radio frequency stuff
[06:55] <ibanezmatt13_> Ah, don't want that
[06:55] <eroomde> so, the reason to keep the local decoupling capaxcitor very close is that it minimises the size of that anetnna effect
[06:56] <ibanezmatt13_> So long as the capacitor is near the VCC and Ground pins on the GPS, does it not matter how long the actual copper track is?
[06:56] <eroomde> ideally you can get it within a few mm of the power pins, which will keep that whole current loop (from cap to vcc then out of gnd back to cap gnd) very small
[06:56] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13_: exactly
[06:56] <ibanezmatt13_> ok, thanks for that very helful information :)
[06:56] <eroomde> it's called a decoupling cap because it decouples, or detaches, what is happening locally from the main supply lines
[06:57] <ibanezmatt13_> I've written it all down, but I really need to leave for school. Thanks again
[06:57] <ibanezmatt13_> Have a good day :)_
[06:57] <eroomde> and it does almost provide some isolation the other way - it helps stop crap on your power lines getting into the gps
[06:57] <eroomde> for example if you had something electrically noisy like a buzzer or a another high speed high power switching circuit
[06:57] <eroomde> cool, good luck
[06:57] <ibanezmatt13_> yeah that makes sense, thanks a lot :)
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[06:59] Action: x-f reads and learns.
[06:59] <x-f> thank you from me too, eroomde
[06:59] <eroomde> this is a good read
[06:59] <eroomde> http://www.maximintegrated.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5450
[07:00] <eroomde> just for a general insight into control current loops in your designs, which is basically the whole problem of good emi design
[07:00] <eroomde> the return path vs frequency stuff is particularly good
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[07:02] <arko> ha
[07:02] <arko> i was gonna bookmark that, it was already bookmarked
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[07:04] <eroomde> read it
[07:04] <eroomde> it's doable over a coffee
[07:06] <arko> this looks really familiar
[07:06] <arko> i could swear i read this
[07:12] Nick change: MichaelC -> MichaelC|Away
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[07:43] <Chetic> what type of antennas should I use for the transmitter (payload) and receiver (in car)?
[07:44] Nick change: Brace_ -> Brace
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[07:44] <UpuWork> Chetic 1/4wave on the payload
[07:45] <UpuWork> whatever on the car, most people use a mag mount 70cms/2 meter and then a yagi as needed
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[07:48] <Chetic> how do you mean the dipole should be placed, UpuWork?
[07:48] <UpuWork> don't think I mentioned a dipole ? :)
[07:49] <Chetic> sorry, I looked up quarter wave and got to dipole
[07:49] <UpuWork> ah ok yes I see
[07:49] <UpuWork> I need to put this on the Wiki
[07:50] <UpuWork> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3604/3380705199_e6f4b71366.jpg
[07:50] <UpuWork> thats a 1/4 wave
[07:50] <chrisstubbs> Antenna wiki sounds like a good idea upu
[07:50] <UpuWork> now on the payload generally that would hang upside down
[07:50] <UpuWork> are you volunteering chrisstubbs ? :)
[07:50] <UpuWork> and the radials are, for 434Mhz anyway, 164mm long on that
[07:50] <chrisstubbs> "<UpuWork> I need to put this on the Wiki" sounded like you were ;)
[07:51] <chrisstubbs> But I can do later if you want...
[07:51] <UpuWork> either or
[07:51] <Chetic> UpuWork: ah now I'm with ya
[07:51] <UpuWork> its been on my list for 6 months :)
[07:51] <UpuWork> the radials don't have to be bent back at 45' like that but it is beneficial to do so
[07:51] <UpuWork> however most people fly them with the radials at 90' usually attached to the underside of the payload box
[07:52] <UpuWork> which I'm trying to find an example image of
[07:52] <Chetic> UpuWork: what do you mean by 70cm/2m?
[07:53] <Chetic> in the range of 70cm-200cm?
[07:53] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/14.07.2012.Launches/7571409632_f78533b9ef_b.jpg
[07:53] <UpuWork> sorry 70cms is the wave length of 434Mhz
[07:53] <UpuWork> 2 meter is the wave length of 144Mhz
[07:53] <Chetic> ah!
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[07:53] <Chetic> so just a mag mount
[07:54] <UpuWork> I use a Diamond MR-77 or something
[07:54] <Chetic> but how do I know if I'll need a yagi?
[07:54] <UpuWork> http://www.radioworld.co.uk/catalog/mr-77s_sma_diamond_2m_70cm_70w_50cm_long_black_metal_whip_magmount-p-2055.html
[07:54] <UpuWork> well once it lands if you don't have a good location
[07:54] <UpuWork> it may be too weak for the mag mount to pick up
[07:55] <UpuWork> at this point you break out the Yagi which is directional
[07:55] <UpuWork> point until you hear the strongest signal then move that direction
[07:55] <Chetic> aah
[07:55] <Chetic> brilliant
[07:56] <UpuWork> you can make one from an old tape measure
[07:56] <UpuWork> or buy one
[07:57] <UpuWork> if you have mucho money : http://www.arrowantennas.com/arrowii/440-5ii.html is wonderfully perfect
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[08:17] <gonzo_> you can make a cheap yagi from a bit of wood for the boom, and some bits of ali rod for the elements
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[08:18] <chrisstubbs> UpuWork: started a page on the wiki. Will improve it tonight when i get home and can access my flickr photos etc
[08:19] <UpuWork> ok cheers chrisstubbs
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[08:50] <lz1dev> aww
[08:51] <lz1dev> helious has such a nice graph
[08:51] <lz1dev> :D
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[08:58] <HixWork> http://aluminiumwarehouse.co.uk is a goos resource for ali for antenna building. They also do 5m sections of tube for masts. pretty cheap from what I've seen
[09:05] <gonzo_> what's the shipping cost like?
[09:05] <gonzo_> I have used smiths metals, as they have a place near i can collect from
[09:06] <SpeedEvil> http://www.cabp.co.uk/ for sheet plastic - http://www.theplasticshop.co.uk/clearance-stock-3311-0.html for other sorts.http://www.beatsons.co.uk/ - building supplies with prices
[09:06] <gonzo_> was buying 5mtr tube, but foir making yagi booms
[09:07] <SpeedEvil> Anyone have a comparable steel supplier that ships?
[09:08] <gonzo_> I usually use local places. As the shipping is a killer.
[09:11] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[09:11] <SpeedEvil> No legally operable car.
[09:11] <SpeedEvil> Which is a bit of a bitch.
[09:21] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: we use parker steel for all our box section here
[09:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> UpuWork Thanks for posting !
[09:22] <eroomde> we have a fairly healthy appetite for it to weld up standards and rigs and engine mounts and things
[09:22] <HixWork> gonzo_, How much is UK delivery?
[09:22] <HixWork> Up to 1kg 1kg to 30kg 500kg plus
[09:22] <HixWork> United Kingdom, Wales, Scotland £14.95 £14.95 FREE
[09:22] <HixWork> Scotland Highlands & Islands £19.95 £19.95 £59.95
[09:22] <HixWork> Northern Ireland, Channel Islands £19.95 £19.95 £59.95
[09:22] <HixWork> sorry, meesy pasting
[09:23] <gonzo_> SpeedEvil, taking big lumps of steel on the bus could be an issue!
[09:23] <SpeedEvil> Quite.
[09:23] <UpuWork> welcome Geoff-G8DHE
[09:24] <UpuWork> let me know how you get on, note jumpers are set for 5V on header
[09:24] <gonzo_> HixWork, it starts getting difficult with large pits of metal. From what I've seen of shippers, over 60cm in any dim starts to get costly
[09:24] <gonzo_> below the 60cm it's weight that costs
[09:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup, seen that, and had already grabbed the documentation! are you planning on doing other freq. versions given the labelling ?
[09:24] <Brace> gonzo_: you've probably tried this, but if it's not to big, what about using a pallet?
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[09:25] <HixWork> they're quoting on 5m lengths of tube
[09:25] <Brace> ok, read teh scrollback, you're all talking about long poles for antenna building
[09:25] <gonzo_> I tend to just avoid shippers and collect
[09:25] <Brace> HixWork: yeah, I really ought to read the scrollback
[09:26] <HixWork> thye're very near me though 5m tubes in a mid engined hatchback isn't really going to work :)
[09:27] <gonzo_> just get a friend to follow in tandem and put the poles across both
[09:27] <HixWork> heh thinkin gonzo_ :)
[09:27] <gonzo_> (interesting when someone tries to cut through!
[09:27] <HixWork> slapstick
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[09:28] <SpeedEvil> HixWork: depends if you are happy removing the windscreen.
[09:28] <SpeedEvil> I have placed a pole in that position.
[09:28] <SpeedEvil> Alas, it involved a shower of glass.
[09:28] Action: HixWork wonders if building a 30m climbing wall in the garden and putting antennae on the top would be viable
[09:28] <gonzo_> long time ago, some friends were towing on a long ish rope. Stopped in traffic near a junction and a car tried to pull out through what he saw as a gap
[09:28] <SpeedEvil> Hix - that may require planning permission.
[09:29] <HixWork> temporary structure ;)
[09:29] <HixWork> wooden too
[09:29] <gonzo_> the rest just read like a frank spencer script
[09:29] <SpeedEvil> HixWork: make it a wheeled reproduction scaling tower, and you're fine.
[09:29] <Brace> gonzo_: ouch
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[09:29] <Brace> HixWork: you can get climbing wall towers, which can be towed by a car and setup anywhere
[09:29] Nick change: shenki_ -> shenki
[09:30] <HixWork> hmm, wheeled 30m climbing wall. what could possible go wrong
[09:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> Use a scafold tower, only a temporary construction
[09:30] <HixWork> but i want the climbing wall aspec it's not just for an antenna
[09:30] <gonzo_> did have a 24ft scaff poll in the car once, almodt had a bus windscreen (and the driver)
[09:30] <HixWork> brace, they don't run to 30m though
[09:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> stick the climbing wall to one side of th tower ;-)
[09:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> steps on the other to reach the aerial
[09:31] <gonzo_> HixWork, ants for HAB work, or general AR?
[09:31] <SpeedEvil> 30m for a non-guyed tower may start to get expensive.
[09:32] <SpeedEvil> Especially if you want to climb it.
[09:32] <SpeedEvil> I suppose you could mount handholds on weldmesh.
[09:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> No can be cheap so long as he only climbs it once
[09:32] <SpeedEvil> Which would greatly reduce the wind loading
[09:32] <SpeedEvil> Ah - yes. Put it on the credit card.
[09:33] <gonzo_> better to get a crank up mast. But the footprint would be huge
[09:33] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: Naah.
[09:33] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: Just drill 20m down.
[09:33] <HixWork> its a fatally flawed plan :)
[09:34] <gonzo_> crank up/tilt over. Just hang on to the top and tell the missus to start winding
[09:34] <gonzo_> if it's only for HAB antennas, you really dont meed that much height
[09:35] <HixWork> is there a mathematical law explaining the correlation between refreshing a tracking screen and the resultant delay it causes?
[09:35] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: I was yesterday computing how to power a quadcopter at a kilometer, with a cable.
[09:35] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: It doesn't actually look that bad - for lowish winds.
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[09:35] <SpeedEvil> Err - not quadcopter - small blimp
[09:36] <HixWork> gonna say kilometer with a quad could be interesting with a cable :)
[09:36] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: A 2kv supply helps lots.
[09:36] <gonzo_> use high-ish voltage to keep the wires thin
[09:36] <gonzo_> snap
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[09:37] <Brace> HixWork: that is true
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[09:52] <nosebleedkt> hi all !
[09:53] <HixWork> hi nosebleedkt
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[10:06] <HixWork> can ayone recommend a good cloud based notes app? needs to speak to linux, pc, android and iOS. Oh and be free
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[10:33] <chrisstubbs> HixWork no idea if evernote runs on linux but its fairly good
[10:36] <HixWork> cheers dude
[10:52] <Brace> evernote used to run on linux iirc
[10:53] <Brace> honestly tho, if you like it, I'd pay for it, these things aren't free
[10:53] <Brace> and if you don't pay for them, they'll just sell you more and more annoying advertising
[10:53] <mfa298> depending on your requirements you could probably also use google docs
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[10:53] <ibanezmatt13> Good Morning, just about :)
[10:54] <ibanezmatt13> Just did a maths exam at school and I think it went really well
[10:54] <Brace> ibanezmatt13: well done, hope you get good results
[10:55] <ibanezmatt13> Thanks :) So do I
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[10:55] <ibanezmatt13> What is 100nf in uf?
[10:56] <mfa298> you need to learn your SI units.
[10:56] <ibanezmatt13> SI units?
[10:56] <mfa298> n is nano, u is micro, m is milli
[10:57] <mfa298> p is pico
[10:57] <mfa298> 1000n is 1u, 1000u is 1m
[10:57] <ibanezmatt13> Ah right, that makes sense :) Didn't know u ment micro
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[10:57] <ibanezmatt13> So I need a 0.1uf capacitor
[10:58] <mfa298> it should actually be the greek mu but a close variation
[10:58] <ibanezmatt13> I'm just gonna look through my bag of very many capacitors...
[10:59] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, I don't have a 100nf capacitor (0.1uf)
[10:59] <mfa298> you probably want a ceramic one rather than a electrolytic
[11:00] <ibanezmatt13> Oh yes, eroomde said that
[11:00] <ibanezmatt13> so they're not the ones that are tube shaped?
[11:01] <mfa298> at which point it will probably have a different sort of marking (some are based on pF and done in a similar way to resistor codes (but numbers instead of colours)
[11:01] <Ugi> You want a little orange ceramic disk with 104 written on it.
[11:01] <mfa298> ceramic ones seem to come in all shapes, but often their more circular
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[11:02] <ibanezmatt13> I have a bag of small things with two legs on them; a mixture of green and sort of orange ones
[11:03] <Ugi> They are about the most common decoupling caps so if you have an assortment you probably have one.
[11:03] <ibanezmatt13> on the yellow ones it says: 0.1 with a 35 underneath and next to that there are two dashes and a + going vertically
[11:04] <ibanezmatt13> that right?
[11:04] <mfa298> if it's got a + marking against one pin it's probably an electrolytic.
[11:05] <ibanezmatt13> no it's not on one pin, it's just a marking like this --+ going vertically just as a mark
[11:05] <Ugi> Not sure what units that yellow is marked in but as mfa says it's polarised and so probably not ceramic
[11:05] <ibanezmatt13> I'll Google it
[11:05] <mfa298> I've also seen small rectangular grey capacitors marked 100n which would do (although probably polyester or similar rather than ceramic)
[11:06] <ibanezmatt13> there are small green ones that are slightly more rectangular than the other ones
[11:07] <Ugi> Most common 110n look like this: http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/339212290/0_10nf_100nf_Ceramic_Capacitor_for/showimage.html
[11:07] <ibanezmatt13> Ok, the green one I have is 10n
[11:07] <Ugi> 110 100
[11:08] <ibanezmatt13> oh, I may have some of those
[11:08] <ibanezmatt13> let me check
[11:08] <Ugi> look for the 104 mark
[11:08] <ibanezmatt13> YES i do, a whole bag of them
[11:09] <Ugi> thought you would - they are v vommon
[11:09] <Ugi> common
[11:09] <ibanezmatt13> would it just say 104, nothing else?
[11:09] <ibanezmatt13> in which case, I have many of them :)
[11:09] <Ugi> most likely
[11:09] <Ugi> good
[11:10] <ibanezmatt13> So they're not polarised?
[11:10] <mfa298> just about to stick an image of a couple of 100nF caps I've got
[11:10] <ibanezmatt13> So I don't have to put them in a specific direction, so long as they're on the VCC and Ground lines for the GPS?
[11:10] <Ugi> no, ceramic caps no polarised
[11:11] <ibanezmatt13> good
[11:11] <ibanezmatt13> thanks :)
[11:11] <Ugi> exactly as you say - as close to the VCC & Gnd lines as poss
[11:11] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, to avoid the inductance
[11:11] <mfa298> these are some I've got. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14636926/2013-06-11%2012.09.23.jpg
[11:11] <Ugi> Blue one looks posh!
[11:11] <ibanezmatt13> it does
[11:12] <mfa298> the one of the right is pretty old. The small blue one I've just got from RS
[11:12] <mfa298> trying to read the markings sometimes is a challenge - it's easier in the picture
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[11:12] <Ugi> Yes. You want it to react as fast as possible, hence short leads and ceramic caps rather than electrolytic.
[11:13] <ibanezmatt13> I'm sorted then :)
[11:13] <Ugi> Good stuff :)
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[11:14] <mfa298> if you've got lots of them it's potentially worth putting one over the power input to the NTX2 as well although hopefully that's got it's own internal decoupling as well.
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[11:15] <ibanezmatt13> Would it not matter mfa298 if I put one in and it already had one?
[11:15] <Ugi> as mfa says - in general one on the power pins of each chip/device is good practice I believe.
[11:15] <mfa298> should be ok. I'm not sure if it's possible to have too many decoupling capacitors
[11:16] <ibanezmatt13> I think I'm gonna be powering the NTX2 off 9v. So if I put one over the VCC and Ground pins on the NTX2, that'll be ok
[11:16] <ibanezmatt13> ?
[11:16] <Ugi> can't hurt it - it just acts as a tiny reservoir of power.
[11:16] <mfa298> if you're back to the NTX2 off 9V you'll need to think about the resistor network still
[11:17] <ibanezmatt13> wow, will i? I thought that those resistor values were based on the logic levels on the TXD
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[11:18] <mfa298> the guides assume the ntx2 is powered from the same voltage as the logic high.
[11:18] <Ugi> I'm going to grab some lunch brb
[11:18] <ibanezmatt13> Can the NTX2 be powered by 3.3v?
[11:19] <ibanezmatt13> VCC that is
[11:19] <eroomde> yes
[11:19] <mfa298> I think you were told the answer to that last night.
[11:19] <ibanezmatt13> ah right, yes I was sorry
[11:19] <ibanezmatt13> I am*
[11:19] <mfa298> from memory vcc is something like 2.8-15v
[11:19] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, I remember now. We agreed to power GPS and NTX2 from 3.3v regulator, and Pi from 5v
[11:20] <ibanezmatt13> In which case my calcs are still correct I think
[11:21] <mfa298> NTX2 from 3v3 works well as that then matches the unstated assumptions in the wiki. (That VCC == Logic high voltage)
[11:21] <ibanezmatt13> ah yes
[11:22] <mfa298> when you had 9v and the resistor network connected to VCC I think the TXD pin was going to float around 4.5V (dropping as the battery voltage decreases) which would have caused you an issue
[11:23] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah I see. I had a long conversation with Dave about this
[11:24] <ibanezmatt13> He was explaining about how when the Pi outputs a high signal, certain resistors are paralleled, and then with a low signal, different resistors are paralleled
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[11:24] <ibanezmatt13> I sort of understand it, but my Dad doesn't.
[11:24] <ibanezmatt13> On the guide on the Wiki, it doesn't show every stage of calculation
[11:25] <ibanezmatt13> Such as working out parallel resistance, and why you are doing that and so on
[11:25] <ibanezmatt13> I'm looking at this http://ukhas.org.uk/_detail/guides:ntx2_divider.jpg
[11:26] <mfa298> that's using the same assumption that the wiki has. As the Pi logic high is 3v3 but the vcc resistor was on 9v as you were thinking of doing it the calculations break down. The easy fix is not to have that resitor on vcc but to something that's equivalent to logic high
[11:26] <ibanezmatt13> Now that I'm using 3.3v VCC I don't have to worry :)
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> Also, tying a resistor to a GPIO pin where the GPIO pin may be damaged if it's tristated is bad
[11:27] <ibanezmatt13> But still, I'm trying to explain it to my Dad, but I can't explain it very well. So I was wondering how to explain why different resistors are paralleled when it is high and when it is low
[11:27] <ibanezmatt13> That is the voltage applied to the TXD pin
[11:28] <ibanezmatt13> Something to do with if it outputs 3.3v high, it parallels with the resistor that is connected to VCC because it's the same voltage
[11:28] <ibanezmatt13> But what about the other resistor
[11:29] <mfa298> it's works when you assume that logic high == vcc as you can then draw the resistor networks in the way they are on that diagram
[11:29] <ibanezmatt13> OH MY!
[11:29] <ibanezmatt13> I've just realised why I couldn't receive my telemetry properly
[11:29] <ibanezmatt13> And why I was loosing lots of packets with SSDV
[11:30] <mfa298> your assuming that the gpio pin is working as a switch between gnd and vcc in those diagrams
[11:30] <ibanezmatt13> I had the NTX2 on the Pi's 5v for VCC, but had a resistor network designed for a VCC of 3.3v!
[11:30] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, I thought of it that way, but I still could work out what was happening with each resistor
[11:30] <ibanezmatt13> couldnt*
[11:30] <mfa298> in theory Ithink it should have worked but the shift would have been different
[11:31] <ibanezmatt13> well it did work, but yeah I think the shift was different
[11:31] <mfa298> do you know the formulae to work out the overal resistance of resistors in parallel ?
[11:31] <ibanezmatt13> in school we learnt it I think
[11:31] <ibanezmatt13> 1/r = 1/r1 + 1/r2 that one?
[11:31] <mfa298> yes
[11:32] <mfa298> (it's actually on that diagram as well)
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[11:32] <mfa298> you should be able to use that to create the equivalent circuit in both instances
[11:32] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, I used that and the calculation resulted in a 480hz shift, so it was correct. But the actual concept of why it was correct was troubling my Dad and I a little
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[11:33] <ibanezmatt13> I'm just gonna have another go at working it out to see if I can understand why
[11:34] <mfa298> is it 4k7 and 20k your using ?
[11:34] <ibanezmatt13> 4k7 and 30k
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[11:36] <Ugi> Hi again.
[11:36] <ibanezmatt13> 1/total resistance = (1/4.7 + 1/30) + 4.7
[11:36] <ibanezmatt13> That's probably incorrect
[11:36] <Ugi> NTX resistor network?
[11:36] <ibanezmatt13> indeed
[11:37] <Ugi> I'm sure the Wiki entry has a mistake there.
[11:37] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah I think so, that's what's confusing me
[11:37] <Ugi> the pic above is good thou'
[11:37] <ibanezmatt13> I know how to calculate, I just need to understand a "bit more" why it works
[11:38] <ibanezmatt13> just want to secure my understanding
[11:38] <ibanezmatt13> There's not much on the Wiki unfortunately to do that
[11:38] <Ugi> Best is to think about a ladder of resistors.
[11:38] <ibanezmatt13> a ladder?
[11:38] <Ugi> If you have a 5V supply and a ladder of 5 resistors (say 1K but it matters not what)
[11:38] <Ugi> Then the vlotage drops 1v across each resistor
[11:39] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I understand that part
[11:39] <ibanezmatt13> Hang on
[11:39] <mfa298> come on dropbox, I've just tried to do the steps for logic high...
[11:39] <Ugi> So, if you had 500 resistors it would drop 0.1v over each
[11:39] <ibanezmatt13> I thought voltage with resistors in parallel was constant
[11:39] <ibanezmatt13> unless we're in series here
[11:40] <Ugi> so you could choose any voltage from 0 to 5 in 0.1v steps
[11:40] <Ugi> Yes, all resistors in series for now.
[11:40] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[11:40] <mfa298> hopefully it's just about readable: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14636926/2013-06-11%2012.38.18.jpg
[11:41] <Ugi> now, if you want 3v, you can use 300 1k resistors on the bottom and 200 1k resistors on the top
[11:41] <Ugi> or you can replace them with 1 x 300K and 1 x 200K
[11:41] <Ugi> Same thing applies to all combinations of resistors
[11:42] <Ugi> you can comine any combination of resistors to being equivalent to one singe value.
[11:43] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298, that's good but I'm not sure how you got to that first formula. And Ugi I'm a little confused, from where you said "so you could choose any voltage form 0 to 5 in 0.1v steps"
[11:43] <Ugi> When you work out the voltage at a point you combine all the resistors pulling it up into one value.
[11:43] <Ugi> Then all the resistors pulling it down into a second value.
[11:43] <Ugi> Sorry - back to the ladder.
[11:43] <ibanezmatt13> yeah sorry about that
[11:44] <Ugi> if you have 500 1K resistors in series then each dropw 0,1v
[11:44] <Ugi> drops 0.1v
[11:44] <ibanezmatt13> yes
[11:44] <Ugi> so at the junction of each resistor you have a voltage 0.1v above or below the next/previous junction
[11:44] <ibanezmatt13> yes
[11:45] <mfa298> the first formula I took from the ntx2 diagram. but it's effectivly the voltage out from the potential divider.
[11:45] <mfa298> it might make more sense working back from the result
[11:45] <Ugi> so we know that we can access any voltage between Gnd and 5v by picking the right junciton.
[11:45] <ibanezmatt13> it's getting the v out from that divider which I don't get
[11:45] <ibanezmatt13> Yes
[11:45] <ibanezmatt13> I get that now, I see
[11:46] <Ugi> at that point you can see that we have 500K total resistance.
[11:46] <Ugi> voltage is going up by 0.1v for each 1K resistor in our string
[11:46] <ibanezmatt13> Yep
[11:46] <Ugi> so the voltage is related to the resistance above and below each point in the string
[11:47] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[11:47] <ibanezmatt13> I get that
[11:47] <Ugi> at the first junction the voltage is 0.1v
[11:47] <Ugi> because there is 1K below and 499k above
[11:47] <ibanezmatt13> yep I see
[11:47] <Ugi> so we are 1/500th of the way up the ladder
[11:47] <Ugi> 5/500 - 0.1
[11:47] <Ugi> 5/500=0.1
[11:48] <ibanezmatt13> 5/500?
[11:48] <Ugi> Yep. 5v from vcc to gnd
[11:48] <ibanezmatt13> oh sorry
[11:48] <ibanezmatt13> yes, I see
[11:48] <Ugi> 500 k total
[11:48] <ibanezmatt13> of course
[11:48] <Ugi> increase by 5/500 each 1k
[11:49] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[11:49] <Ugi> so you can see that we have derived the formula that
[11:49] <Ugi> voltage at a point is related to the difference between vcc and gnd
[11:49] <ibanezmatt13> Ok
[11:49] <Ugi> divided by the total resistance between them
[11:50] <ibanezmatt13> hang on,
[11:50] <Ugi> multipled by the resistance from gnd to our point
[11:50] <Ugi> sorry
[11:50] <ibanezmatt13> Sorry, let me just re-read that
[11:51] <Ugi> OK - I'll pick it up from 0.1 v steps in for each 1K
[11:51] <ibanezmatt13> why multiplied by total resistance?
[11:51] <Ugi> OK, lets go back to our string of 1ks for a mo
[11:52] <Ugi> we have 500 ks on a 5v supply
[11:52] <Ugi> each is dropping 0.1v
[11:52] <ibanezmatt13> yes got that
[11:52] <Ugi> so each junction is 0.1v above or below the next
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[11:52] <ibanezmatt13> yes
[11:52] <Ugi> so the first junction has 1k below and 499 above - it sits at 0.1v
[11:53] <ibanezmatt13> yep got that
[11:53] <Ugi> second junction has 2k below and 498 above - it sits at 0.2v
[11:53] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[11:53] <Ugi> third has 3k below and 497 above - 0.3
[11:53] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[11:53] <Ugi> so n-th has n below and (500-n) above
[11:54] <ibanezmatt13> yep got that
[11:54] <Ugi> and is a n x 0.1v
[11:54] <ibanezmatt13> right let's pause here
[11:54] <ibanezmatt13> n x 0.1v what is that exaclty
[11:55] <Ugi> that's n steps up the ladder
[11:55] <Ugi> it has n 1ks below it
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[11:55] <Ugi> and 500-n 1ks above it
[11:55] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I get that bit, but why we multiplying?
[11:55] <Ugi> each step gives us 0.1v
[11:55] <ibanezmatt13> ah right ok
[11:56] <Ugi> so at step n we are at n x 0.1v
[11:56] <ibanezmatt13> that's the voltage at n?
[11:56] <Ugi> Yep. voltage at the junction n step up is 0.1v x n
[11:57] <Ugi> if that's not clear (and it might well not be) then say so.
[11:57] <ibanezmatt13> ok got that bit
[11:57] <ibanezmatt13> I understand
[11:58] <Ugi> so we have observed in this imaginary experiment that our total 5v voltage has been divided into 500 steps by 500 equal resistors
[11:58] <ibanezmatt13> yes
[11:59] <Ugi> at step 1 we read 0.1v , step 2 0.2v, step 10 (10x 0.1 = 1v) etc
[11:59] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[11:59] <Ugi> so we can make any voltage we choose (0 to 5v) with this ladder of resistors
[11:59] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[12:00] <Ugi> But if we know we want, say, 2.5v then using 500 1ks is a bit of a pain
[12:00] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[12:00] <ibanezmatt13> is it?
[12:01] <Ugi> however, we do know that 2.5 volts is 250 steps of 0.1v up our ladder
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[12:01] <ibanezmatt13> that's ok
[12:01] <Ugi> have you ever soldered 500 resistors in series?
[12:01] <Ugi> Me neither but I don't cfancy it much
[12:01] <ibanezmatt13> no, much easier to use higher resistor values
[12:01] <Ugi> exactly that.
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[12:02] <Ugi> we know our 2.5v is at 250 steps (0.1v x 250 = 2.5v) up our chain
[12:02] <ibanezmatt13> could use a few 100ks
[12:02] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[12:02] <Ugi> so 250 steps up our chain is 250 1ks up
[12:02] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[12:02] <ibanezmatt13> 25 10ks
[12:03] <Ugi> so we can replace our 250 1ks with 1 250k (don't worry for now that 250ks aren't easy to find)
[12:03] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[12:03] <Ugi> same above, replace our 250 1ks above with 1 x 250k
[12:03] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[12:04] <Ugi> result is the same as with our ladder - what we have done is combine all the resistors pulling down into a singe equivalent value
[12:04] <ibanezmatt13> yeah got that now :)
[12:04] <Ugi> same with those pulling up
[12:04] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[12:04] <Ugi> so the idea of a votage divider is that we look at a junction point
[12:05] <ibanezmatt13> I see
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[12:05] <Ugi> we look at all the resistors pulling down
[12:05] <Ugi> and combine them into one
[12:05] <Ugi> then look at all the resistors pulling up
[12:05] <Ugi> and combine those.
[12:05] <ibanezmatt13> I see what's happened, I've drawn it out. In between the lower 250 and the upper 250 is 2.5v
[12:05] <Ugi> That's it.
[12:06] <mfa298> I've done a more generalised version of that on paper: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14636926/2013-06-11%2012.53.00.jpg
[12:06] <ibanezmatt13> Ok, that's good. So we have the voltage divider part
[12:06] <Ugi> so we can always imagine any resistor network rediced to one equivalent resistor
[12:06] <Ugi> reduced
[12:06] <mfa298> hopefully now you can see where how the formula is derived from Ugi's description
[12:07] <Ugi> there is a name for the theory of combining resistances, but I can't remember it.
[12:07] <ibanezmatt13> That looks like it makes more sense, I'll just have another look
[12:07] <Ugi> however, with our NTX2, we are making a divider by looking at the equivalent single resistors in the on and off state.
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[12:08] <ibanezmatt13> that's the tricky par
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[12:08] <ibanezmatt13> part*
[12:08] <ibanezmatt13> where's the 3rd resistor?
[12:08] <mfa298> hopefully my earlier diagram (with all the maths) shows more how you get from the 3 resistors to the equivalent version
[12:09] <ibanezmatt13> oh yes it does make a bit more sense
[12:09] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: in this one https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14636926/2013-06-11%2012.38.18.jpg the two diagrams at the top are equivalent
[12:09] <Ugi> The third resistor is _either_ in parallel with R1 _or_ with R2 depending upon the high/low state
[12:09] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[12:10] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I see
[12:10] <Ugi> When the third resistor is pulled HIGH it is in paralle with R1
[12:10] <mfa298> the 1st diagram matches what's on the wiki, the 2nd is what you've just worked through
[12:10] <ibanezmatt13> so where it says r2/r2+ that one what is being divided by what
[12:10] <Ugi> when it is pulled LOW, it is parallel with R2
[12:10] <ibanezmatt13> That's the formula my Dad and I couldn't understand
[12:11] <mfa298> That formula is the potential divivider formula
[12:11] <ibanezmatt13> That all makes a lot more sense :) But it's just why R2 is being divided by the sum of R2 plus the sum of the total parallel resistance of those other to
[12:11] <ibanezmatt13> is it?
[12:12] <mfa298> you might understand it more if you look at the second line - 4k7 / (4k7+4k06) * 5
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[12:13] <mfa298> 4k7+4k06 is the total resistance of the simplified network (so equivalent of the 500 x 1k resistors you just did with ugi)
[12:14] <ibanezmatt13> So why top resistance divided by bottom resistance
[12:14] <ibanezmatt13> Did we divide before?
[12:14] <mfa298> the 4k7 is the same as the counting up a number of resistors you want for Vout
[12:14] <Ugi> Exactly - what we saw with out 500 1ks was that the voltage changed in equal steps related to the total resistance from 0 to vcc
[12:14] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I got that bit
[12:14] <ibanezmatt13> oh
[12:14] <ibanezmatt13> wait
[12:15] <Ugi> we used 500 1K steps
[12:15] <mfa298> you probably want to try and work out how https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14636926/2013-06-11%2012.53.00.jpg is the mathmatical form of counting up n resistors
[12:15] <ibanezmatt13> I think I understand it now
[12:15] <Ugi> but in the formula the number of steps is R1 + R2
[12:15] <ibanezmatt13> I see
[12:15] <Ugi> and you are counting up R2 steps from gnd
[12:16] <ibanezmatt13> What I'll do, because I'm being shouted at to come down, I'll save this log, and look at those diagrams and see with a cup of tea if I can secure my understanding
[12:16] <ibanezmatt13> I should be back in about 30 mins or so
[12:16] <Ugi> Cup of tea always wise under such circumstances.
[12:16] <ibanezmatt13> Thanks for the momentous help!
[12:17] <Ugi> You'll get there if you work it through a few times.
[12:17] <ibanezmatt13> I understand it a lot more now. I'll go and have a look, thanks :)
[12:17] <mfa298> if you get stuck you might find some better explanations searching for potential dividers
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[12:18] <mfa298> it's surprising how challenging trying to do electronics from first principles is over IRC
[12:18] <Ugi> Hell yes.
[12:19] <Ugi> it's easy to forget what an abstract concept it all iw.
[12:19] <Ugi> is
[12:20] <Ugi> but it's rather like teaching using charades
[12:20] <mfa298> I suspect the right thing to do is find some good online guides and put them on the wiki
[12:21] <Ugi> That might be a good plan :)
[12:23] Action: [1]Geoff-G8DHE hum router re-boot
[12:23] Nick change: [1]Geoff-G8DHE -> Geoff-G8DHE_
[12:24] <Ugi> I just had a google and this GCSE primer appears to have a mistake in it!
[12:24] <Ugi> http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/design/electronics/componentsrev4.shtml
[12:25] <mfa298> that reminds me, I should finish configuring the newer router I've got, there were a couple of BT vans by the local green box earlier so we might be about to get FTTC (finally faster than 8Mbps speeds)
[12:25] <Ugi> Look at the supposed light-dependant circuit at the bottom.
[12:26] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Ah had FTTC provided tuesday last week, but just noticed the router has re-booted a couple of times :-(
[12:27] <Geoff-G8DHE_> 70Mbps down 13Mbps up
[12:27] <Ugi> wow!
[12:27] <Ugi> I think we are still on about 4
[12:28] <Geoff-G8DHE_> I had been with BE but didn't like being moved to Sky - so checked it out and same cost to switch to Plusnet but FTTC!
[12:29] <Ugi> I should think that flys.
[12:29] <Ugi> we have used plusnet for ages and they are usually pretty good.
[12:29] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Trouble is not many servers can actually fill 70Mbps in real service!
[12:29] <Ugi> not too many service outages
[12:29] <mfa298> We've now got a total of 2 LLU providers in the exchange, FTTC date is 30/6 on samknows. Hopefully that won't change this time.
[12:29] <Ugi> but have actually had a couple last few days.
[12:29] <Geoff-G8DHE_> but it makes the remote backup much faster at 13Mbps rather than 1-3Mbps
[12:30] <Ugi> I can imagine you might be waiting around for servers!
[12:31] <Ugi> 13Mbps was LAN speed a few years ago
[12:31] <Ugi> 70 still is!
[12:32] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Next will be FTTH, troble is I used to work for BT on the internal networks so used to having some speed!
[12:32] <Ugi> I should think that they move a bit.
[12:32] <UpuWork> FTTP
[12:33] <UpuWork> and it should be availble on demand in any FTTC area if you have deep pockets
[12:33] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Yes it is for Business not sure anybody is doing it for Residential yet ?
[12:34] <Brace> Geoff-G8DHE_: Andrews and Arnold offer FTTP iirc
[12:34] <UpuWork> We resell through enta and they aren't offering it just yet
[12:34] <Geoff-G8DHE_> right time for lunch BBL Yes I guess they would be thinking about it !
[12:34] <UpuWork> and they are normally very early adoptots
[12:35] <UpuWork> adoptors
[12:35] <mfa298> I wouldn't be surprised if A&A do FTTP they do pretty much everything else you might have ever heard of.
[12:35] <Brace> http://www.aa.net.uk/broadband-FP.html
[12:35] <Brace> yeah they do
[12:40] <UpuWork> thats not right
[12:40] <UpuWork> £100 install
[12:40] <UpuWork> don't think so
[12:40] <UpuWork> looks like they are just selling the test service
[12:41] <Darkside> mmmm FTTP
[12:41] <Darkside> thats slowly being rolled out nationwide here
[12:42] <Darkside> i'll get it in about 2 years
[12:42] <UpuWork> its not on roll out yet
[12:42] <UpuWork> a few test exchanges here and there but I think the testing has completed now
[12:42] <Darkside> pretty sure the flat i stayed atin Bath had FTTP
[12:42] <Darkside> it was 50mbit
[12:43] <Darkside> i think it was on BT?
[12:43] <eroomde> might have been virgen
[12:43] <Darkside> oh wait
[12:43] <Darkside> that soudns right
[12:43] <eroomde> we ahve 50mbit virgin for about £30/mo
[12:43] <Darkside> yah i think that was it
[12:43] <Darkside> it was super fast
[12:43] <UpuWork> FTTC is, well mine is 55/17
[12:44] <Darkside> here in australia, we dream of having FTTP
[12:44] <Darkside> if the current government stays as government after the elections in september, we might well get it
[12:44] <Darkside> if the opposition gets in, we'll be stuck on copper for another 20 years
[12:44] <Darkside> because they are idiots
[12:46] <LazyLeopard> Fibre's so much less nickable. Hasn't stopped the odd low-life from trying to nick it, but perhaps they won't bother next time when they find they can't melt it down into copper ingots...
[12:50] <mfa298> rodents seem to be quite good finding lit fibre although BT probably won't be installing roden sized pipes with FTTP
[12:52] <fsphil> Darkside: yea shame about that, the NBN seems like a great idea
[12:58] <gonzo_> if there was a digital dividend, when offcom sold off all the tv spectrum
[12:59] <gonzo_> is there a fibre divident when they weigh in all the copper
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[13:03] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Ah ha won't mind about the re-boots the upload speed has gone up from 13 to16+Mbps and still 73Mbps down!
[13:03] <Geoff-G8DHE_> obviously still training the profile
[13:06] Action: daveake tries not to get jealous
[13:06] <daveake> fails
[13:06] <fsphil> your nick has gone purple with envy
[13:07] <daveake> :)
[13:07] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Sry Dave, it will come to you in all good time ;-)
[13:07] <daveake> Yeah, 10 years probably
[13:07] <daveake> btw greetings from Denmark
[13:07] <fsphil> take a wrong turn?
[13:07] <HixWork> daveake.dk
[13:07] <daveake> yeah you know how it goes
[13:08] <daveake> turn off a motorway next thing you know you're in an airport and on a plane
[13:08] <daveake> must keep awake next time
[13:08] <mfa298> surely FTTC/FTTH should be on the requirement list for moving house
[13:08] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Thought you had your own International transport system
[13:08] <daveake> yeah but i'm slightly above the maximum payload weight
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[13:09] <daveake> Besides my bacon stocks are worryingly low
[13:09] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Multi balloon configuration called for like me! Just try to not be confused with the Blimp itself ;-)
[13:10] <daveake> That'd be an easy mistake to make
[13:10] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Well your in the country of Bacon sssssss
[13:10] <daveake> exactly
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[13:11] <Geoff-G8DHE_> I wonder if I can arrange for FTTC to the Campervan ?
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[13:13] <fsphil> isn't that what the C stands for?
[13:13] <Brace> UpuWork: that's right, A&A charge £100 for FTTC installs
[13:13] <daveake> must be
[13:13] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Could be but I don't fancy having a Greenbox on the back, the Thule box is enougth!
[13:14] <fsphil> A+A are great
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[13:14] Nick change: GW8RAK_ -> GW8RAK
[13:14] <gonzo_> charged per mile
[13:15] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Hum not sure I like that idea it would be wrse than the petrol ..
[13:17] <gonzo_> 100miles of unleaded fibre please
[13:17] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Out of interest does anybody else use Google Earth for tracking as well as Google map provided ?
[13:18] <eroomde> have done
[13:18] <eroomde> had a real time predictor running locally and updating the traces
[13:18] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Just wonder if its worth putting together a Wiki page on how to get the best out of it ?
[13:19] <eroomde> predictions for lots of different scenarious
[13:19] <eroomde> well, for the most part the 3D doesn't add anything i think
[13:19] <eroomde> just gets in the way
[13:19] <eroomde> google has this silly parallax error perspective projection that makes it very difficult
[13:20] <eroomde> we wanted it as we wanted to visualise the 3D-ness of the landing trajectories
[13:21] <eroomde> but just to track, i think it only makes things harder unless you want it just for pretties
[13:21] <eroomde> which is a perfectly valid excuse
[13:21] <Geoff-G8DHE_> I know what you mean, its just that it gives a better visual appreciation for those interested.
[13:21] <eroomde> e.g. your visulaisations are great
[13:21] <eroomde> but they're more for looking at it afterwards in admiration
[13:21] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Yes for direct tracking the height is almost irrelevant its time to come down thats needed!
[13:21] <eroomde> rather than for the business of tracking :)
[13:22] <Darkside> mm
[13:22] <Darkside> we just use 2d mapping
[13:22] <Geoff-G8DHE_> It does help for working out the landing spot by looking down the "glide slope" to see where it strikes the ground
[13:22] <Darkside> we have predictions for that
[13:22] <Darkside> live predictions
[13:22] <eroomde> ah but winds n that
[13:22] <eroomde> always be changin
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[13:22] <Darkside> and yes, even the live predictions will go a bit funny near the ground
[13:22] <Geoff-G8DHE_> wouldn't disagree
[13:23] <eroomde> and yes the predictor is the tool for that job
[13:24] <mfa298> I think the only time I particularly thought about using GE for a live flight is when out mobile so it can also be fed location via gps. Although the mobile apps cover that function now
[13:25] <eroomde> KMLs of flights are still very useful though
[13:25] <eroomde> you can infer a reasonable amount from them
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[13:26] <mfa298> A guide to using GE for a live flight might be useful though. I think they only times I've tried it was on a slower PC with no changes to the GE setup so it was pretty slow at showing anything.
[13:26] <Geoff-G8DHE_> it also helps to be able to plot other parameters like temp. using colour but that really needs later work to create
[13:27] <eroomde> if you could set it up to keep a fixed perspective, following the flight in 3d, that would be cool
[13:27] <mfa298> being able to plot other things would be good to see.
[13:27] <Geoff-G8DHE_> I must admit I find being able to rotate around is what gives the perspective
[13:28] <eroomde> i hate the extruded paths, they just get in the way, but a 3d path and a 2d projected-onot-ground path could be useful
[13:28] <mfa298> Sounds a bit like there's a conference topic here.
[13:28] <eroomde> more an evening's hacking I'd have thought
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[13:29] <eroomde> i often have to hack up little python scripts to munge some dataset into kml
[13:29] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Yes agreed the extruded path I only put on for the Pano's where you want to see the "wall" but the OM really look better against just the flight path alone
[13:29] <eroomde> eg for all the gps receiver design work
[13:29] <mfa298> I was thinking along the lines of the sorts of clever stuff GE can do (all the stuff I've not looked at yet)
[13:29] <Darkside> heh
[13:30] <eroomde> well it's all like flight simulation (kill me now) as far as i can see
[13:30] <Darkside> i didnt post my recent launch animation in here did i
[13:30] <Darkside> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJnpUvikUac
[13:31] <Geoff-G8DHE_> this site http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/ is quite handy, but you can end up with some large data files as on this link http://www.g8dhe.net/blog/content/static/Bongo_Travels_2009.php
[13:31] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Not GE itself but ic can generate KML/Z files for use
[13:32] <Phil_M0DNY> Darkside: That's cool! Were they all just using DF?
[13:32] <Darkside> yep
[13:32] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Oh that cruel not telling them it was moving!
[13:32] <eroomde> that's quite fun Darkside
[13:32] <Darkside> they figured it out
[13:32] <Darkside> well most did
[13:32] <Darkside> one got lost
[13:32] <Darkside> and gave up
[13:33] <iain_G4SGX> Quick question guys, theres been some discussion on powering the NTX2 and it seems a voltage reg is not required, you can take power straight from the battery. Can I assume and voltage drop on the battery will not cause any drift? ie. the tx frequency is mostly dependant on the voltage at the TXD pin with respect to ground, NOT its supply voltage?
[13:33] <Darkside> iain_G4SGX: correct
[13:33] <Darkside> theres an internal 2.8v regulator
[13:33] <iain_G4SGX> cool, ta
[13:33] <iain_G4SGX> excellent
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[13:34] <daveake> Just make sure the bias resistor doesn't go to the same place - it should go to logic Vcc
[13:34] <eroomde> http://www.radiometrix.com/files/additional/circuit-diagrams/ntx2nrx2/ntx2_blk.gif
[13:35] <Randomskk> why is it right to left :(
[13:35] <iain_G4SGX> Nearly got the TX working, CRC and interupt driven software uart all cool, just gotta speed it all up and connect to the NTX2
[13:35] <eroomde> what is new Randomskk?
[13:35] <Darkside> iain_G4SGX: why software uart?
[13:35] <Darkside> or do you mean for the RTTY transmit
[13:36] <Randomskk> spent yesterday in the pub [11am-11pm] then curled up on a sofa in the newnham bar [11pm-2am]. very relaxing
[13:36] <Randomskk> tonight, formal, with sherry predrinks at home
[13:36] <Randomskk> thursday, another formal, with cheeseboard and port after
[13:36] <eroomde> newnham...
[13:36] <Randomskk> maybe I'll hack on my movie recommender thing a bit
[13:36] <eroomde> nudge and a wink
[13:37] <Randomskk> oh, and I just ordered a bound copy of my meng thesis
[13:37] <Randomskk> printed on 110gsm cotton paper and bound in swiss bonded leather
[13:37] <iain_G4SGX> cos 50 baud is so slow, and its 7 bit..
[13:37] <Randomskk> >_>
[13:37] <eroomde> god. that never occured to me
[13:37] <eroomde> not that i particularly want one
[13:37] <Randomskk> yea I wasn't really entirely sure but
[13:37] <Randomskk> well, I'm not likely to do another masters
[13:37] <Randomskk> and my dad has his bound msci from way back when and it's quite nice sitting in his study
[13:37] <eroomde> get your phd thesis published :)
[13:38] <Randomskk> albeit typewritten and with figure inserts :P
[13:38] <Randomskk> hah yes
[13:38] <Randomskk> all in good time ;)
[13:38] <iain_G4SGX> Darkside: yeh for tx only..
[13:38] <Randomskk> still need to get funding first
[13:38] <eroomde> any news on that front?
[13:38] <Randomskk> not a whisper
[13:38] <Randomskk> awaiting exam results
[13:38] <Randomskk> apparently most of the cued grants are decided based on that
[13:39] <Randomskk> not really got a supervisor either though
[13:39] <eroomde> what joy
[13:39] <Randomskk> results a week thursday
[13:39] <Randomskk> so yea
[13:39] <Randomskk> who knows
[13:39] <Randomskk> can only hope. and look for jobs on the sly
[13:39] <Randomskk> mostly finding other ways to occupy my time though :P
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[13:45] <Ugi> you a Cambridge engineer Randomskk?
[13:45] <Randomskk> yea
[13:45] <Ugi> cool.
[13:46] <Randomskk> or I was anyway :P graduation in a couple weeks
[13:46] <Ugi> Was NatSci myself - many a year ago.
[13:46] <Randomskk> ooh cool
[13:46] <Randomskk> what college? :P
[13:46] <Ugi> Trinity
[13:46] <Randomskk> nice
[13:46] <eroomde> there is a bit of a cam mafia in ukhas Ugi
[13:46] <Ugi> My DoS had the address A1 Great Ct, Trinity College - always thought that a rather fine one!
[13:47] <UpuWork> ping Gadget-Mac
[13:47] <Randomskk> that is excellent
[13:47] <Randomskk> though I think "1 London" is still my fav
[13:47] <Ugi> Who's is that?
[13:47] <Randomskk> apsley house, london
[13:48] <eroomde> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apsley_House
[13:49] <Ugi> Hummm. a little above my budget that one!
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[13:50] <Ugi> May week then Randomskk?
[13:50] <Ugi> I remeber waiting for graduation
[13:51] <Ugi> learned to punt one-handed without spilling the beer in the other
[13:51] <Ugi> takes talent that
[13:52] <Randomskk> hehe
[13:52] <Randomskk> yes exactly
[13:52] <Randomskk> currently in the week before may week
[13:52] <gonzo_> sbeer, whilst punting?
[13:52] <Randomskk> which is full of slightly lower key fun and frolic
[13:52] <Randomskk> gonzo_: pimm's, clearly :P
[13:52] <Randomskk> or pink champagne and eton mess, nom
[13:52] <gonzo_> champers at least old chap.
[13:53] <gonzo_> hehe
[13:53] <Ugi> Hope the weather holds for you
[13:53] <Randomskk> thanks :P it's looking overcast but at least not rainy
[13:53] <Ugi> mine would have been '94 and the weather was fab'
[13:54] <Randomskk> lucky :P though I've had my share of clement mayweeks
[13:55] <Ugi> good to hear.
[13:55] <Ugi> and maybe more if you're staying on for PhD?
[13:55] <Randomskk> hopefully! though I'm not sure how much significance they hold when you're otherwise working full time and not about to have a three month vacation
[13:55] <Ugi> not too many Engineers did that 20 years ago
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[13:56] <daveake> PhD = Punting holding Drinks?
[13:56] <Ugi> Oh, they are still fun, if slightly lower-key.
[13:56] <Randomskk> good to hear
[13:56] <Ugi> That's how I trained?
[13:56] <Ugi> !
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[13:58] <Ugi> well, have fun - I should be working but will be about on and off.
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[14:02] <eroomde> Oh valgrind, you and I do not get along
[14:02] <eroomde> it's given me a 570,000 line report
[14:02] <eroomde> of memory leaks
[14:03] <LazyLeopard> Ho hum.
[14:08] <qyx_> leaky memory
[14:08] <HixWork> if you think about it as only half a million it doesn't sound as bad. oh, errmm
[14:09] <eroomde> there cannot be that much leaky memory
[14:10] <eroomde> that would be about 250 leaks per line of code
[14:10] <eroomde> 99% of it is valgrind being confused
[14:10] <Randomskk> libraries are also often responsible
[14:10] <Randomskk> though valgrind is quite good at ignoring libraries
[14:10] <Randomskk> also even if 99% of it is valgrind being confused, that's a solid 2.5 leaks per line of code
[14:10] <Randomskk> :P
[14:11] <eroomde> 99.99% then
[14:11] <eroomde> it's one single thing somewhere, i think
[14:11] <eroomde> just difficult to find in all the noise
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[15:34] <Laurenceb> anyone here investigated LoRa?
[15:34] <Laurenceb> http://www.emmicroelectronic.com/products.asp?IdProduct=300
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[15:40] <Laurenceb> http://www.rfcafe.com/miscellany/press-releases/2009/cycleo-press-release-9-17-2009.htm
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[15:47] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> Looks like fun
[15:49] <Laurenceb> very "secret"
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[16:15] <mfa298> wow, using a 4GB class 4 SD card, writing the rasbian image to it at 10MB/s No wonder these cards seem to be good in the Pi
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[16:16] <Jess--> afternoon all
[16:18] <mfa298> afternoon
[16:18] <Jess--> anything interesting happening today?
[16:19] <Jess--> or just a quiet day in habbing
[16:20] ibanezmatt13 (~ibanezmat@host31-52-183-130.range31-52.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[16:20] <Jess--> Hi Matt
[16:20] <ibanezmatt13> Hi Jess-- :) How's it going?
[16:21] <Jess--> not too bad, just been tidyin up / building our groups website
[16:21] <ibanezmatt13> cool
[16:21] <mfa298> mostly quiet today
[16:21] <Jess--> still needs some work on the template and more content http://www.titanballoon.co.uk
[16:22] <Jess--> I saw that there were no new flights on the tracker today
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[16:22] <ibanezmatt13> I'm just trying to do some error checking for my program. Sometimes my program freezes on the line gps.readline() (I've mentioned this before). I was wondering whether I could apply a timeout to the readline function. I already have one on the serial port but that doesn't seem to do much
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[16:23] <Jess--> is there not something like the java try function?
[16:23] <ibanezmatt13> I'm not sure. I need it to have read the GPS in less than say 5 seconds. So I need it to stop attempting to read the GPS after this time.
[16:23] <ibanezmatt13> It would be handy if there was a timout parameter for the readline function really
[16:25] <ibanezmatt13> http://pyserial.sourceforge.net/pyserial_api.html Somewhere about half way down, it mentions the readline and readlines functions
[16:25] <ibanezmatt13> It says something about a timeout, but I'm not sure if it's what I'm looking for
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[16:26] <mfa298> Jess--: from a quick read through it looks like a good start for the groups website
[16:26] <Jess--> I have to admit I know nothing on python so I can't help
[16:27] <ibanezmatt13> it's ok :)
[16:27] <Jess--> the site is coming together, it didt exist at all yesterday morning
[16:28] <mfa298> you've got about as much content as I have and I started mine several months ago.
[16:29] <Jess--> my hardest thing is working out what to write about the group itself
[16:30] <Jess--> making stuff like the google map to show the previous flights is what I am usually doing
[16:32] <ibanezmatt13> ping daveake
[16:32] <daveake> pong
[16:32] <Jess--> my day job is this website http://www.virginballoonflights.co.uk
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[16:32] <ibanezmatt13> daveake did you use a timeout when you were reading the GPS
[16:32] <ibanezmatt13> ?
[16:32] <ibanezmatt13> Or just for opening the serial port
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[16:33] <daveake> Well currently I use i2c not serial and that just polls, so effectively the timeout is zero
[16:33] <ibanezmatt13> when you used the serial port previously?
[16:34] <daveake> Same - I get any characters in the buffer at that time
[16:34] <daveake> So it never waits
[16:34] <ibanezmatt13> I'm having trouble reading the GPS
[16:35] <ibanezmatt13> Only occasionally, the program hangs on the gps.readline() function
[16:35] <daveake> Well you should almost always have something coming in
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[16:35] <daveake> It shouldn't ever hang on readline assuming the GPS is still sending and you've got the baud rate etc right
[16:35] <ibanezmatt13> I'm not sure why it does that, but it literally freezes and doesn't come back on. Yet if I restart the program it works.
[16:36] <ibanezmatt13> Perhaps the serial port is getting clogged with stuff? I don't know
[16:36] <ibanezmatt13> But as you said, it shouldn't ever freeze on that readline()
[16:36] <daveake> Well, readline /should/ return as soon as it sees a line (i.e. a Linefeed character)
[16:36] <daveake> and one of those should turn up inside 1 second
[16:37] <ibanezmatt13> exactly, that's why I'm confused
[16:37] <ibanezmatt13> Unless the GPS goes mental and starts outputing a load of nonsense without a '\n' character
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[16:37] <mfa298> I suppose the question is is it hanging on the readline or is it looping (and not displaying anything) becuase the data you read not what your expecting - do you have the code in place to let you see which is happening
[16:38] <daveake> My oriiginal Pi tracker basically did what you're doing - it would loop until it got a GPS position, then send it, then go back again. Well slightly more than that because of the SSDV, but that's the essential part of it
[16:38] <ibanezmatt13> it's definitely hanging. The amount of prints I have is unbelieveable
[16:38] <ibanezmatt13> Something's wrong somewhere. What if the GPS wasn't returning anything. Is there a way to avoid that?
[16:38] <Randomskk> you can add a timeout to the read
[16:39] <daveake> Don't forget that when you wait for a line, what you get is quite likely to be an incomplete line
[16:39] <daveake> Also there could be junk in there from when it was at 300 baud for the rtty side
[16:39] <ibanezmatt13> Does the flush() clean it?
[16:39] <mfa298> if it's a similar number of print's to what you had before it's not that many!
[16:39] <daveake> Yes. And yes, definitely use a timeout.
[16:39] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298, far more :)
[16:40] <daveake> You want to keep sending rtty even if the gps isn't working
[16:40] <ibanezmatt13> how can I use a timeout on read? I'm already using one on serial and that seems to do nothing
[16:40] <ibanezmatt13> That's what I'm doing. I send sentences saying "GPS NOT WORKING" if it isn't returning anything valid. But the fact that it stops looping is worrying
[16:41] <daveake> http://pyserial.sourceforge.net/pyserial_api.html
[16:41] <ibanezmatt13> That's exactly what I was reading earlier
[16:41] <daveake> > http://pyserial.sourceforge.net/pyserial_api.html
[16:41] <daveake> sorry
[16:41] <daveake> > timeout – Set a read timeout value.
[16:41] <daveake> seems appropriate
[16:41] <ibanezmatt13> That's what I looked at. I may have missed something, I'll read again.
[16:43] <ibanezmatt13> Perhaps I could use the read() function. It has a size parameter where you set the number of bytes to read. I guess a full sentence won't be more than a certain amount of bytes
[16:44] <ibanezmatt13> The problem is, it says you don't set the timeout in that function. I think you set it when you open the serial, which I've done.
[16:44] <Jess--> is there a buffer on the serial that you can clear before you attempt to read it (so that you only read fresh data)
[16:45] <Jess--> just a thought off the top of my head
[16:45] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[16:45] <daveake> If you do that remember that you may still receive (say) the end of one sentence and the beginning of the following one. So it'll be up to you to bin the rubbish. e.g. ignore everything till you get a "$", then buffer till the next LF, then process that sentence (check the checksum, check the type of sentence, if both OK parse it)
[16:46] <ibanezmatt13> Buffer till next LF?
[16:46] <daveake> yes
[16:46] <ibanezmatt13> What's LF
[16:46] <daveake> LINE FEED
[16:46] <daveake> which you get at the end of, well, each line
[16:47] <ibanezmatt13> When you say buffer, do you mean wait, or keep looping
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[16:48] <daveake> OK, imagine the GPS data as a stream of characters. Your code is starting to listen to this stream at some random point in time. At that point the next character could be the start of a sentence (the "$"), or the end (the LF) or anything in between
[16:48] <ibanezmatt13> Ok
[16:49] <daveake> So you keep reading characters until you see a "$". Anything before that is useless as it's part of an incomplete (to you) sentence
[16:49] <ibanezmatt13> I've already got that in my if statment. If sentence[0] == "$GPGGA":
[16:49] <ibanezmatt13> Sorry !=
[16:49] <daveake> That's later.
[16:50] <ibanezmatt13> Oh right
[16:50] <daveake> You haven't got the sentence yet :)
[16:50] <ibanezmatt13> right :)
[16:50] <daveake> You stick that "$" somewhere (say a string - that's your buffer) and then you keep reading characters until you see the LF. Append them all to that string.
[16:50] <Jess--> my thinking was that if the buffer hadn't been read for a while then it might have overflowed hence clearing it and then reading fresh
[16:50] <daveake> If you see another "$" before that LF, start again as something's gone horribly wrong :)
[16:51] <ibanezmatt13> I know what you mean, but I don't know how to do that buffer
[16:51] <ibanezmatt13> I was just looping until it started with what I wanted
[16:51] <daveake> Buffer = string
[16:51] <bertrik> stuff like this can often be elegantly coded as a state machine
[16:51] <daveake> Yeah but I'm suggest reading a character at a time now not a complete line
[16:51] <ibanezmatt13> oh right
[16:52] <ibanezmatt13> And that can be done my gps.readline(1) ?
[16:52] <ibanezmatt13> At a wild gues
[16:52] <daveake> This is a more C way of doing it, but as your readline isn't working it might be worth trying. And I want you to understand something which is ...
[16:52] <ibanezmatt13> good idea
[16:52] <daveake> no NOT a line
[16:52] <ibanezmatt13> hmm, gps.read(1) ?
[16:52] <daveake> You're reading *1 character* nothing to do with lines
[16:52] <daveake> Sounds more like it :)
[16:52] <ibanezmatt13> ok
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[16:53] <ibanezmatt13> So I'm constructing a string by reading one at a time? Not sure what the best way of doing that is
[16:53] <Randomskk> have a list
[16:53] <Randomskk> received_bytes = []
[16:53] <Randomskk> then append to it
[16:53] <daveake> Anyway, the key thing is the the GPS is spraying characters at the Pi whether your program is listening or not, and when you do start listening then this stream of data could be anywhere in any sentence that it's sending
[16:53] <Randomskk> byte = ser.read(1)
[16:54] <Randomskk> or whatever
[16:54] <daveake> I don't understand how readline() is hanging btw
[16:54] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah I get that daveake and Randomskk, I remember how to do lists! Good idea
[16:54] <ibanezmatt13> Nor do I...
[16:54] <daveake> Upload your code let's have a look
[16:54] <ibanezmatt13> Ok, one sec
[16:55] <daveake> and you're 1000% sure readline is entering and never exiting?
[16:55] <ibanezmatt13> 100%
[16:55] <ibanezmatt13> 1000000% even
[16:55] <ibanezmatt13> otherwise it would print the if statments directly after it
[16:56] <ibanezmatt13> nearly uploaded
[16:57] <ibanezmatt13> https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5758589
[16:57] <ibanezmatt13> That's not got all the if statements in
[16:58] <eroomde> every time I think I've sorted this memory leak
[16:58] <eroomde> http://media.tumblr.com/a32cc3d54f68db187cf6ef0e99a9205d/tumblr_inline_mnztozTYuK1qz4rgp.gif
[16:58] <ibanezmatt13> That also doesn't have SSDV as I was testing only GPS
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> And that disable_sentences function is dormant currently
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> I was going to try to filter out the working sentence if it wasn't returning anything decent, but then I changed my mind
[17:00] <ibanezmatt13> There is actually a print statement after the readline
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[17:02] <daveake> Guess: You've got: TX2 = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyAMA0', 300, serial.EIGHTBITS, serial.PARITY_NONE, serial.STOPBITS_TWO)
[17:02] <daveake> and gps = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyAMA0', 9600, timeout=1)
[17:02] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[17:02] <daveake> Suggest you explicitly set stop bits etc when opening the GPS
[17:02] <ibanezmatt13> why's that?
[17:02] <daveake> in case it's leaving the previous values in place
[17:03] <daveake> Dunno - might be
[17:03] <ibanezmatt13> Also, I haven't flushed the ports so that could be worth doing
[17:04] <ibanezmatt13> Do I set the stop bits etc before or after the timeout?
[17:04] <ibanezmatt13> Before I would imagine
[17:05] <daveake> matters not it's just a list of parameters. Not ordered
[17:05] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[17:05] <ibanezmatt13> I've done that
[17:05] <ibanezmatt13> Suppose I could flush the input and output
[17:07] <ibanezmatt13> Also, atm I'm reading a whole line. I should really try reading one byte at a time and append to a list. Would I have to set a countered while loop so I get the right amount of characters?
[17:07] <ibanezmatt13> i.e. while counter <= 40: byte = ser.read(1) ; listofbytes.append(byte)
[17:07] <daveake> readline is fine so long as you check the line (i.e. starts with $GPwhatever, and checksum passes)
[17:08] <daveake> leave readline as it is for now
[17:08] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[17:08] <ibanezmatt13> I've added a flushInput() after reading GPS, and a flushOutput() after sending to NTX2
[17:09] <ibanezmatt13> And I've set 8N2 in the opening of the serial for GPS
[17:09] <daveake> One point for later thought - once you've opened the port, you should loop until you get the sentence you want. Don't close and go round again ( you might loose the next sentence)
[17:09] <ibanezmatt13> That's an excellent idea, why didn't I think of that?
[17:10] <daveake> Because you're learning :)
[17:10] <ibanezmatt13> Fair point
[17:10] <daveake> Well we all are, but you know what I mean :)
[17:10] <ibanezmatt13> Not sure how I would do that exactly. Would I have a while True? And then just break on receipt of a GPGGA sentence
[17:10] <ibanezmatt13> ?
[17:11] <ibanezmatt13> Or while sentence[0] != "$gpgga":
[17:11] <daveake> Well, loop till you've got a valid sentence
[17:11] <daveake> checksum and all
[17:11] <ibanezmatt13> err
[17:12] <daveake> something like
[17:12] <daveake> while not GotALovelySentence
[17:12] <daveake> ...
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[17:12] <daveake> if GPGGA ... if checksum ... GotALovelySentence = True
[17:13] <ibanezmatt13> Would I do all this before closing the port?
[17:13] <daveake> And you can easily ad a timeout in there
[17:13] <daveake> yes
[17:13] <ibanezmatt13> just a time.sleep(x) ?
[17:13] <daveake> no no no and no :)
[17:13] <daveake> Just grab the time before the loop
[17:13] <daveake> Something like ...
[17:14] <daveake> Timeout = Now + 5
[17:14] <daveake> while (not GotAlovelySentence) and (Now < Timeout)
[17:14] <ibanezmatt13> Didn't think you could do that
[17:14] <ibanezmatt13> Oh I see
[17:14] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[17:15] <ibanezmatt13> while (sentence[0] != "$GPGGA") and (time.timenow() < Timeout):
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[17:16] <daveake> You still need to confirm the sentence is valid
[17:16] <daveake> Checking the first 6 characters does not constitute a complete test :)
[17:17] <ibanezmatt13> My brain is not functioning today. I'm still thinking what I need to put in that while loop! :p Oh and I already have an if statement checking the lock and satellites
[17:17] <ibanezmatt13> I could put that in the while loop part
[17:18] <daveake> You don't currently have a checksum test on the GPS sentence, so you need to do that sometime
[17:18] <ibanezmatt13> I use that later on after parsing
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[17:19] <daveake> No that's when you build the rtty sentence. You don't have a check to ensure the NMEA checksum is correct
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[17:19] <ibanezmatt13> what do I need to do in that first while loop? Because surely if the sentence is perfect, that while loop will stop won't it. Or do I have to set that as a possible event with if's in the while loop?
[17:19] <daveake> That said, it's unlikely to be wrong - the most likely thing is missing the start of the sentence
[17:20] <ibanezmatt13> Can I use the same checksum function for the NMEA?
[17:20] <daveake> It's not a perfect sentence just because the first 6 characters match what you're looking for
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[17:21] <daveake> No it's an XOR checksum
[17:21] <daveake> Anyhoo, leave that for later
[17:21] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[17:21] <ibanezmatt13> brb, loo
[17:22] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Hi. Any Dutch people on here now?
[17:22] <ibanezmatt13> back
[17:23] <bertrik> OZ1SKY_Brian: yes
[17:23] <bertrik> but I'm just a HAB-groupie :)
[17:23] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Hi bertrik, do you have a radio?=
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[17:25] <ibanezmatt13> daveake, I guess I may just be a good idea to learn the XOR checksum. If I do, I guess this is very unlikely to fail
[17:25] <bertrik> OZ1SKY_Brian: I have a couple of rtlsdr sticks and some makeshift antennas
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[17:26] <OZ1SKY_Brian> bertrik that should do. Could you check 169.750 for me and see if you got a data signal there?
[17:27] <bertrik> that's an ERMES frequency, I've never seen it absent, but I'll check
[17:27] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: I've not read all the stuff between you and dave but it's probably worth getting the code reading the data first. once you're happily getting the data in worry about the checksum
[17:27] <OZ1SKY_Brian> bertrik yes it is
[17:27] <ibanezmatt13> I'm still trying to work out what to put in that loop
[17:28] <ibanezmatt13> while not got a good sentence: ...
[17:28] <ibanezmatt13> My Maths exam this morning as made my brain void
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[17:29] <bertrik> OZ1SKY_Brian: there is a data signal there at 169.750 (but I've not been able to decode it yet)
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[17:29] <Matt____> mAtt
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[17:29] <mfa298> void brain (char *irc);
[17:29] <ibanezmatt13> exactly
[17:29] Action: mfa298 does bad C jokes
[17:30] <OZ1SKY_Brian> bertrik thank you for confirming it as active. Well about decode, look here http://archive.is/2013.02.22/http://www.gsm-antennes.nl/PDW/pdw.php?lang=eng
[17:30] <ibanezmatt13> yes, my brain is void of the power required to form the while loop above
[17:30] <mfa298> while loops would tend to include some code that you want to wait for a good result.
[17:31] <ibanezmatt13> while the sentence is a load of rubbish: ...
[17:31] <mfa298> while (gottaGoodString); get data; end loop
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[17:31] <ibanezmatt13> while (notgottagoodstring);
[17:32] <mfa298> the idea being when you exit the loop you've got a good string (or you decided to stop trying because it took to long)
[17:33] <ibanezmatt13> So I just need to gps.readline() in the while gottabadstring loop
[17:34] <ibanezmatt13> And then when it automatically breaks out of this with a good string, I do my stuff?
[17:34] <mfa298> that depends on how you're reading the data. It looked like there was a suggestion of reading a character at a time but I wasn't paying much attention (playing with serial on a pi)
[17:35] <ibanezmatt13> yeah atm I'm reading a whole line
[17:35] <ibanezmatt13> dave said to stick with that for a bit
[17:35] <mfa298> so read the line and check it in the loop
[17:36] <ibanezmatt13> if my while loop is: while data != "whatiwant":
[17:37] <ibanezmatt13> Won't I just re-read the GPS
[17:37] <mfa298> in terms of your debugging print statements you might want to print out the string you get with a message of why it passed/failed
[17:37] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah I can do that
[17:38] <ibanezmatt13> I'm gonna have a go now
[17:38] <mfa298> the trick is to work out what to put inside the while loop (and there are several ways you could do it)
[17:38] <ibanezmatt13> I'll experiment and see what works best :)
[17:39] <ibanezmatt13> The problem is that it still hangs on the readline() function
[17:39] <mfa298> as always have a go, when you're totally stuck or think you have a solution upload it and someone can help (or suggest improvments)
[17:39] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298, I will do :)
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[17:41] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298, I can't even use the while loop because it won't even read the GPS
[17:42] <ibanezmatt13> Your probably gonna be really annoyed now
[17:42] <ibanezmatt13> I've fixed the problem "I think"
[17:43] <ibanezmatt13> I may be wrong
[17:43] <mfa298> If not it might be worth turn it off and remove power for a few seconds just to clear out the serial settings on things
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[17:44] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, I will do. But I'm trying to make my code bombproof. So, while it's running, taking unplugging the GPS and plugging it back in again to see if it reloops and gets a stirng again
[17:45] <ibanezmatt13> It's worrying that at the moment, it's forever printing "invalid sentence." Yet, if I rapidly end and restart the program, it works again instantly
[17:45] <ibanezmatt13> change of plan, restarting makes it hang again (sheer frustration now)
[17:46] <mfa298> that's where printing out the sentence as well is useful as you can see why it's invalid
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[17:46] <ibanezmatt13> debugging this is bugging me
[17:47] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298, just rebooted Pi, restarted program, same issue. It hangs one readline. I'm really confused
[17:48] <ibanezmatt13> All connections are secure
[17:48] <ibanezmatt13> However, I'm powering the UBLOX off the Pi's crappy 3v3 line. I'm gonna try powering it off a battery instead
[17:49] <mfa298> it's possible that would cause some of your issues
[17:49] <mfa298> the other thing that could be worth a try is trying to just output on a terminal what's happening on the serial port
[17:49] <ibanezmatt13> well if it draws more than 50mA, which that line is limited to, we may have an issue
[17:50] <ibanezmatt13> how shall i do that?
[17:50] <mfa298> in a terminal just running " cat /dev/ttyAMA0
[17:50] <mfa298> should print out what's happening on the serial port
[17:51] <ibanezmatt13> ok I'll do it now
[17:51] <mfa298> although you might not see anything if the baud rates dont match (although after trying your program it's probably set the baud rte)
[17:51] <ibanezmatt13> it returned nothing
[17:51] <ibanezmatt13> that is "cat /dev/ttyAMA0
[17:52] <eroomde> yes, this is dog
[17:52] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[17:52] <mfa298> it doesn't need the "
[17:52] <eroomde> http://pigroll.com/img/hello_yes_this_is_dog.jpg
[17:52] <ibanezmatt13> I didn't put that :)
[17:52] <ibanezmatt13> cat /dev/ttyAMA0
[17:52] <mfa298> I was trying to put the whole command in speach marks but the paste had a return char on the end
[17:53] <mfa298> looks like you can set the baud rate manually with: stty -F /dev/ttyACM0 9600
[17:53] <ibanezmatt13> oh right
[17:53] <Elijah__> picocom is a nice lightweight utility that'll let you control all of that stuff
[17:54] <ibanezmatt13> I'll just try the power supply thing first, then I'll troubleshoot the seriak
[17:54] <ibanezmatt13> serial
[17:55] <mfa298> Elijah__: is that a variation on minicom ?
[17:57] <Elijah__> not sure TBH, just a utility I've used for awhile on *nix boxes
[17:57] <Elijah__> works good from just a terminal
[17:57] <mfa298> just had a quick google and it looks like it might be
[17:58] <Elijah__> aah ok
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[17:58] <mfa298> in which case I can imagine it will be useful
[17:59] <mfa298> just going to try it out on a different linux box
[17:59] <Elijah__> the default escape character is Ctrl-A so don't try it inside screen :-)
[18:03] <fsphil> screen can also be used to output serial data
[18:03] <mfa298> I just did that.
[18:03] <mfa298> althogh Ctrl-A a in screen should send a Ctrl-A to the application
[18:06] <mfa298> hmmm, running picocom in a normal window Ctrl-A q doesn't seem to quit even though it should.
[18:06] <mfa298> (and that worked with minicom even in screen - Ctrl A a q)
[18:07] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298, bad news. The running tests on the GPS has revealed that it isn't returning anything...
[18:09] <ibanezmatt13> at all
[18:10] <ibanezmatt13> every time, it returns ""
[18:10] <ibanezmatt13> oh dear
[18:11] <mfa298> did you have another way to test the gps other than having it on the pi ?
[18:12] <ibanezmatt13> err, no.
[18:12] <ibanezmatt13> It's on its own power supply
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> I just opened python in the shell
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> And read the port manually
[18:13] <mfa298> and it's a 3v3 powersupply
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> I tried opening, closing, flushing. Yes 3v3
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[18:15] <ibanezmatt13> that's 3.3v going into ublox vcc, and the ublox ground going to the main ground line on breadboard, and the ground of the regulator going into the ground line on breadboard too
[18:15] <mfa298> is the pi ground connected to the ublox ground ?
[18:16] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, all grounds connected on one line
[18:17] <mfa298> you didn't mention the pi being connected to that same ground in your sentence above (which is why I asked)
[18:17] <ibanezmatt13> Yep, all grounds connected sorry
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[18:18] <mfa298> personally I'd be tempted to try the stty command I pasted above and then the cat command.
[18:18] <mfa298> although it sounds like something else is causing issues (which is where having other ways to test things is useful)
[18:19] <ibanezmatt13> ok, I'll do that. so the stty first, then the cat?
[18:19] <mfa298> yep
[18:19] <mfa298> stty sets up the serial port settings (baud rate)
[18:19] <ibanezmatt13> no such file or directory
[18:19] <ibanezmatt13> is it not AMA0?
[18:20] <ibanezmatt13> is the cat one just: cat /dev/ttyAMA0
[18:20] <ibanezmatt13> what was that return char you said about?
[18:20] <mfa298> that's right for the cat line
[18:21] <ibanezmatt13> that still returns nothing
[18:21] <mfa298> that was in what I pasted
[18:21] <mfa298> which meant it sent the line to IRC before I meant for it to send it
[18:21] <ibanezmatt13> still returns nothing
[18:22] <GadgetDroid> Dumb question, have you tried swapping the tx and RX connections ?
[18:23] <ibanezmatt13> I thoroughly check that every time. RX on GPS goes to TX on pi and vice versa
[18:23] <mfa298> if there's no output that suggests your not getting data from the gps for some reason.
[18:24] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[18:24] <GadgetDroid> You could of course connect tx to RX on the pi, and use minicom to confirm the serial port works
[18:24] <ibanezmatt13> Just thought of something... One sec
[18:25] <GadgetDroid> Also, can you post a pic of the setup ?
[18:26] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, might take a while like but I can do
[18:26] <ibanezmatt13> what I just tried failed btw
[18:26] <mfa298> what did you try ?
[18:27] <GadgetDroid> Sorry, coming in on the existing chat, so some things might have been covered.
[18:27] <ibanezmatt13> it looked like one of my connections (the tx one) wasn't secure. But it's fine
[18:28] <GadgetDroid> What ublox board? Have you stopped the Linux kernel using the serial port ?
[18:28] <mfa298> you've not done something like connect the gps to 5v and fried it have you ?
[18:28] <ibanezmatt13> GadgetDroid, Taking a picture will be very futile. It's the most untidy setup you've ever seen. mfa298 I don't think so, I hope not anyway. GadgetDroid it's a Max 6
[18:29] <GadgetDroid> Is it a breakout board, if so which one
[18:29] <mfa298> a picture might be useful even if it's messy as there might be something obvious for us to spot
[18:29] <ibanezmatt13> I'll upload them but I warn you they're not great
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[18:31] <GadgetDroid> I've diagnosed soldering sorts before now on pictures
[18:31] <mfa298> GadgetDroid: I think its the 3v3 breakout board he has and it's connected to the pi.
[18:32] <ibanezmatt13> yep, sorry forgot to mention that
[18:32] <GadgetDroid> How old is the breakout?
[18:34] <ibanezmatt13> new really
[18:34] <ibanezmatt13> https://www.dropbox.com/s/66msf7uhb6iak71/WP_000409.jpg
[18:34] <ibanezmatt13> https://www.dropbox.com/s/g6h5zt9zpypyue0/WP_000410.jpg
[18:34] <ibanezmatt13> told you they were shocking :)
[18:34] <GadgetDroid> What does cat /boot/cmdline.txt
[18:35] <GadgetDroid> Give ?
[18:35] <ibanezmatt13> it's a long line, but I remember having to change it to enable serial port. It's right I think.
[18:35] <ibanezmatt13> Ends in elevator=deadline rootwait
[18:36] <ibanezmatt13> yep definitely correct im sure
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[18:36] <ibanezmatt13> The strange thing is, this was working perfectly before
[18:36] <ibanezmatt13> I was uploading to spacenear.us/tracker
[18:37] <ibanezmatt13> even then it was freezing on readline() but restarting the program fixed it. Now it's not...
[18:38] <GadgetDroid> Tried a reboot?
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> yep, and a halt
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> even though that's pretty much the same
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> it's just returning "" everytime
[18:38] <ibanezmatt13> no matter what I try
[18:39] <mfa298> did you remove power from the pi and gps when you did the halt ?
[18:40] <GadgetDroid> Are you sure all the connections are good, lots of potential place for the to break looking at the picture
[18:40] <ibanezmatt13> can't remember, I'll do another to be sure
[18:40] <ibanezmatt13> yep all secure, checked them all
[18:40] <GadgetDroid> Continuity checked?
[18:41] <mfa298> Whilst you're just testing the gps I'd be tempted to remove the ntx2 bits (and picam)
[18:41] <mfa298> make the setup as simple as possible (and as little using power as possible)
[18:42] <ibanezmatt13> ok, I'll do that now
[18:42] <ibanezmatt13> continuity?
[18:42] <ibanezmatt13> it continues to output "" repeatedly
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[18:43] <GadgetDroid> Or check the GPS is getting 3.3v
[18:43] <ibanezmatt13> voltmeter says it's still getting 3.3v
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> may I introduce my first "Breeze" class payload Breezedrifter I with the Electrometer addon board http://s.gullipics.com/image/z/h/8/5yvexk-krp7s2-r4no/IMG0244.jpeg
[18:45] Action: mfa298 wonders if an LED on the gps txd line would help show anything useful
[18:46] <ibanezmatt13> news...
[18:46] <ibanezmatt13> GPS now working when connected to Pi 3.3v line as opposed to battery regulator. Also, NTX2 not connected any more
[18:47] <GadgetDroid> Cool
[18:47] <ibanezmatt13> bad news
[18:48] <ibanezmatt13> ...
[18:48] <ibanezmatt13> It's outputing this: $djfhgjf,fdf:Ggfgjfg,fgkfjgigfi,gffgijfs,fidfijfdjfgijdf,gfgijifjgidsfjsidf%*rtrttrt
[18:48] <ibanezmatt13> except change that to windings
[18:48] <ibanezmatt13> I made that up but it's not too disimilar
[18:49] <GadgetDroid> Baud rate.
[18:50] <ibanezmatt13> 9600
[18:51] <GadgetDroid> Odd
[18:51] <ibanezmatt13> I've fixed it
[18:51] <ibanezmatt13> And you won't believe the problem was?
[18:51] <ibanezmatt13> ? = ...
[18:52] <GadgetDroid> Go on
[18:52] <ibanezmatt13> Dave told me earlier to set the GPS serial port like the NTX2. Ie, gps = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyAMA0', 9600, timeout=1, serial.EIGHTBITS, serial.PARITY_NONE, serial.STOPBITS_TWO)
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[18:53] <GadgetDroid> Ah.
[18:53] <ibanezmatt13> It turns out that removing that "de-windingifies" the info and makes it into readable data :)
[18:53] <fsphil> ?
[18:53] <GadgetDroid> 8n1, not 8n2
[18:53] <ibanezmatt13> I said 8N2
[18:54] <ibanezmatt13> I transmit 8N2, but I set the GPS serial to be 8N2 too
[18:54] <fsphil> ah
[18:54] <fsphil> the hardware uart must be waiting
[18:54] <fsphil> not all do
[18:54] <GadgetDroid> Yup.
[18:54] <ibanezmatt13> However, that still doesn't explain the hanging on readline()
[18:54] <mclane> Hello Lunar_Lander
[18:55] <mclane> you mentioned an electrometer
[18:55] <mclane> what do you want to do with it?
[18:56] <mfa298> well lesson there is don't believe everything your told on IRC
[18:56] <ibanezmatt13> If I leave the program running and disable the GPS quickly then plug it back in again. It should reloop until it gets a valid string, shouldnt it?
[18:56] <ibanezmatt13> I think Dave probably ment 8N1, it was probably my fault
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> the electrometer comes from a 2001 paper by Giles Harrison and you measure the electric field in the atmosphere with it
[18:57] <mfa298> (hence don't believe everything) if it looks wrong question it - we all make mistakes
[18:57] <mclane> do you have a schematic?
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> mfa298: that sounds wrong. everyone on IRC is a certified genius.
[18:58] <ibanezmatt13> I am right in thinking that disabling then reenabling the GPS while the program's running, the program should keep relooping until it gets a good string again, yes?
[18:58] <GadgetDroid> Hmmm. Any reason not to use a gpio pin to do the tx, other than more effort in coding
[18:58] <mfa298> It could be worth looking up the other options for stty to set 8n1 as that way with stty and cat you have a nice easy test the requires nothing other than a couple of standard commands to check your getting data from gps.
[18:59] <mfa298> GadgetDroid: I think dave had found bitbanging rtty on the pi didn't work very well as you couldn't do exact timings in the code. Hence the use of the UART
[19:00] <GadgetDroid> OK.
[19:00] <fsphil> linux userland is a rubbish place for doing precise timing
[19:00] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:00] <mfa298> althoguh I started reading something a couple of hours ago that suggested there's two serial ports on the gpio - not read enough to see if it's anything useful
[19:00] <fsphil> but it might be possible to have a kernel module do exact timing
[19:00] <number10> evening jcoxon
[19:00] <GadgetDroid> If only that was an spi serial port
[19:00] <fsphil> howdy jcoxon
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[19:01] <mfa298> spent too much time on irc and playing serial on my pi to read useful articles
[19:01] <ibanezmatt13> Wwould it matter so much if I kept disabling certain NMEA_sentences when ever I didn't get a good string?
[19:02] <GadgetDroid> mfa298: there is on gpio 14 & 15 iirc
[19:02] <ibanezmatt13> That could be half the issue, disabling them once. If the GPS fails, they'll need to be disabled again
[19:02] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: in terms of what happens when you pull the power to the gps whilst the code is running that's where printing out what you get from GPS is useful. You can hopefully see why it's not giving a good sentence
[19:02] <fsphil> is there any point disabling the other nmea sentences?
[19:02] <ibanezmatt13> well I only want GPGGA
[19:02] <fsphil> your code should ignore everything else anyway
[19:02] <ibanezmatt13> It doesn't work like you think...
[19:03] <ibanezmatt13> It opens the serial, reads a line (until it see's a \n character), then checks to see what the line started with.
[19:03] <ibanezmatt13> Really bad way to do it I think
[19:03] <mfa298> GadgetDroid: GPIO 14 and 15 is what's being used currently. What I started reading seemed to suggest there was a 2nd uart
[19:04] <fsphil> I remember suggesting that you open the serial port, and keep reading lines until you get one starting with $GPGGA
[19:04] <jcoxon> fsphil, i'm resurrecting Eurus' ISS code - determined to at least try out a UV3R with ISS aprs
[19:04] <ibanezmatt13> That's what I thought I was doing. From what I have learnt, it's not doing exactly that
[19:04] <fsphil> code up anywhere?
[19:04] <ibanezmatt13> https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5758589
[19:04] <GadgetDroid> You could run gpsd
[19:05] <fsphil> jcoxon: nice. I never did get my interface made up
[19:05] <ibanezmatt13> just gpsd in the terminal: "gpsd" ?
[19:05] <fsphil> gpsd is over complex
[19:05] <jcoxon> avoid gpsd
[19:05] <ibanezmatt13> in that case nevermind
[19:05] <mfa298> GadgetDroid: this is what I started reading: http://lavalink.com/2012/03/raspberry-pi-serial-interfacing/ and http://lavalink.com/2012/04/more-on-raspberry-pi-serial-ports/
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, one moment
[19:06] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: that's not what you're doing there
[19:06] <ibanezmatt13> That's not what I should be doing I guess...
[19:06] <fsphil> you're opening the serial, reading a line, and closing it again
[19:06] <ibanezmatt13> Precisely
[19:06] <fsphil> what if you keep opening the port half way through a line?
[19:07] <ibanezmatt13> I tried to put a while loop in and I got confused.
[19:07] <ibanezmatt13> Exactly
[19:07] <fsphil> you need to keep it opened
[19:07] <ibanezmatt13> I do
[19:07] <fsphil> you don't
[19:07] <fsphil> line 38
[19:07] <ibanezmatt13> No I mean I am agreeing with you "Yes, I do, you're right"
[19:07] <ibanezmatt13> Sorry, that was unclear :)
[19:07] <fsphil> aah
[19:08] <fsphil> that may be all that is wrong
[19:08] <ibanezmatt13> I couldn't work out how to put the while loop in even though it's so simple...
[19:08] <ibanezmatt13> I've been doing this since I got in from my Maths exam this morning till now, so I'm a little vegged
[19:08] <ibanezmatt13> In fact, I'd better get a drink, one sec
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> mclane,
[19:09] <ibanezmatt13> ok im back
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> http://s.gullipics.com/image/t/z/t/5yvexk-krp816-wk9f/HarrisonElectrometer.png
[19:10] <ibanezmatt13> For some reason, my brain can't compute how to do the while loop to keep the serial open and wait for GPGGA
[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, we did change a few things
[19:10] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil,
[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> I probably will have to make an EAGLE schematic
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander> we dropped the whole lower part
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander> and the things around Q3 and IC5
[19:11] <fsphil> open the port
[19:12] <fsphil> read a line
[19:12] <fsphil> if gpgga, break out of loop
[19:12] <ibanezmatt13> while sentence[0] != "$gpgga":
[19:12] <ibanezmatt13> open port; readline();
[19:13] <ibanezmatt13> If gpgga, check for a lock
[19:13] <ibanezmatt13> If not, pass
[19:13] <ibanezmatt13> and therefore reloop
[19:13] <ibanezmatt13> Is that correct?
[19:13] <fsphil> you can do sentence.startswith("$GPGGA") in python I think
[19:13] <fsphil> you're opening the port inside the loop again
[19:13] <ibanezmatt13> Oh yes, open out of loop
[19:14] <fsphil> the only thing you do inside the loop is read, or timeout
[19:14] <ibanezmatt13> Would I have to just use flush()
[19:14] <fsphil> don't need flush
[19:14] <ibanezmatt13> ok then. So...
[19:14] <ibanezmatt13> while sentence[0] != "$gpgga":
[19:14] <ibanezmatt13> readline()
[19:14] <fsphil> nope
[19:15] <fsphil> unless sentence is a list?
[19:15] <bertrik> if sentence is a char[] then sentence[0] is a char and you can't compare that to a string
[19:15] <ibanezmatt13> oh
[19:15] <bertrik> you can do strcmp or strncmp in C
[19:15] <ibanezmatt13> sorry, that's from my earlier code where I split it up
[19:15] <fsphil> bertrik: it's python
[19:15] <bertrik> oh sorry
[19:15] <ibanezmatt13> err
[19:15] <mclane> Lunar_Lander: uhh that looks like damned analog electronics (I like oscillating amplifiers and everything high impedance ;-))
[19:16] <ibanezmatt13> So I'd have to split it up first
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :)
[19:16] <ibanezmatt13> whatever = sentence.split(",") ?
[19:16] <fsphil> ibanezmatt13: or so the .startswith thing mentioned earlier
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> the thing at the left is an asymmetric oscillator :)
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> IC2b
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:16] <fsphil> or do*
[19:16] <ibanezmatt13> oh of course, I do tend to overcomplicate things :)
[19:17] <fsphil> you can split it after
[19:17] <ibanezmatt13> Hang on, how can I check that it doesn't start with...
[19:17] <fsphil> not sure what you mean?
[19:17] <ibanezmatt13> well
[19:18] <ibanezmatt13> I was gonna have a loop which said: while the sentence doesn't start with what I want, keep reading
[19:18] <fsphil> well startswith returns true or false
[19:18] <fsphil> I'll let you figure out the rest :)
[19:18] <ibanezmatt13> oh right
[19:18] <mclane> I am looking for a transimpedance amplifier circuit to be run from 3V (or maybe a little more)
[19:18] <ibanezmatt13> sure, didn't know that thanks
[19:18] <number10> while (ch != $)
[19:18] <mclane> since I want to integrate a UV photometer in my next payload
[19:19] <ibanezmatt13> while sentence.startswith == False:
[19:19] <ibanezmatt13> ?
[19:19] <fsphil> that'd do
[19:19] <ibanezmatt13> Oh hang on
[19:19] <fsphil> while not ... would also work in python, I *think*
[19:19] <ibanezmatt13> would it?
[19:19] <ibanezmatt13> while not does work
[19:20] <bertrik> mclane, I'm working on a UV measurement circuit too
[19:20] <ibanezmatt13> so I could do while not sentence.startswith("$GPGGA"): ?
[19:20] <fsphil> I think sp
[19:20] <fsphil> so*
[19:20] <ibanezmatt13> I'll try it
[19:20] <bertrik> but I'm using 5V and a TLC272 opamp
[19:20] <fsphil> make sure sentence is empty before you go into the loop
[19:21] <fsphil> or it'll use the previous gpgga received and never enter the loop
[19:21] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok
[19:21] <ibanezmatt13> so I have to set sentence to "" after I've split it for another variable
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[19:21] <fsphil> easier just to do it before you go into the loop
[19:21] <mclane> bertrik: what kind of photodiode are you using?
[19:21] <bertrik> a reyax UVI-01
[19:22] <ibanezmatt13> ok :)
[19:22] <bertrik> I tested it last saturday, it indeed reacts to a UV LED and not to my 180 lumen flashlight, but I got a quite high zero-reading
[19:25] <bertrik> mclane: I'm using basically this circuit http://www.dfrobot.com/image/data/TOY0044/UV%20Senser%20sch.pdf with different gain setting and a different opamp
[19:25] <bertrik> R1 sets the transimpedance factor, R2/R3 set the gain
[19:26] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil, while not NMEA_sentence.startswith("$GPGGA"): NMEA_sentence = gps.readline() is that all I need seen as I reset the sentence before the loop?
[19:26] <ibanezmatt13> won't it automatically break if it does get a gpgga?
[19:26] <ibanezmatt13> in which case move onto rest of my code
[19:27] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, sounds awesome!
[19:27] <fsphil> yea, NMEA_sentence = "" right?
[19:27] <ibanezmatt13> just before loop yes
[19:27] <mclane> I have a sglux SiC photodiode
[19:27] <fsphil> yep. seems logical
[19:27] <ibanezmatt13> so just after that loop, I can close the serial and parse out my data
[19:28] <ibanezmatt13> Would I check for a lock on the satellites after the loop to or should I do that in the loop?
[19:28] <bertrik> the reyax diode I use should produce 4 nA per UV index
[19:28] <fsphil> I'd keep the loop as simple as possible
[19:28] <ibanezmatt13> So I should just use an if statement for the lock after the loop
[19:28] <ibanezmatt13> ?
[19:28] <fsphil> yep
[19:28] <ibanezmatt13> ok, thanks
[19:28] <fsphil> remember inside the loop you probably don't have a gpgga string, no point testing it
[19:29] <mclane> Bertrik: other question: how do you make the measurement direction-independant?
[19:29] <fsphil> you'd just be duplicating work for yourself
[19:29] <ibanezmatt13> I see, ok
[19:30] <bertrik> mclane: I don't know how to do that
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[19:31] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil, amazing, it works :)
[19:31] <fsphil> nice!
[19:31] <bertrik> my plan is to use two sensors, one of which has a piece of glass that filters most of the UV-B, and then compare the signals of the two sensors
[19:32] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil, Is there a chance it can still freeze on the readline() ?
[19:32] <fsphil> yep
[19:32] <ibanezmatt13> If there is, I think I know how to make my own timeout
[19:32] <fsphil> if the gps stops talking
[19:32] <ibanezmatt13> dave told me before
[19:32] <ibanezmatt13> well I say I know, i'm just gonna see if I can remember
[19:32] <fsphil> lol
[19:33] <ibanezmatt13> He said to set Timeout = timenow + 5
[19:33] <ibanezmatt13> while timenow <= timeout
[19:34] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: that sounds about right in terms of getting out of the loop if you don't get suitable data from the gps.
[19:34] <ibanezmatt13> while not NMEA_sentence.startswith("$GPGGA") and Time_Now <= Timeout
[19:34] <mclane> bertrik: ok, understand
[19:34] <mfa298> Challenge is to work out how to put it in your code
[19:34] <ibanezmatt13> ^^
[19:34] <ibanezmatt13> apart from the other bits
[19:34] <jcoxon> fsphil, ibanezmatt13 is this code for the pi?
[19:34] <fsphil> tis
[19:34] <mfa298> sounds like you're on the right track.
[19:34] <ibanezmatt13> I need to work out how to return the current time
[19:35] <ibanezmatt13> something like time.timenow()
[19:35] <jcoxon> isee
[19:35] <ibanezmatt13> anybody know that? Save the Googling.
[19:35] <fsphil> not done time in python
[19:35] <mfa298> I think currently your asking the people who don't write python code
[19:35] <ibanezmatt13> probably, over to Google :)
[19:36] <bertrik> mclane: I don't have much time to fully characterise the effect of the glass and the sensors themselves, so it's not super-scientific, we'll just send it up and see what happens :)
[19:36] <ibanezmatt13> yep time.time()
[19:36] <ibanezmatt13> not far off
[19:36] <ibanezmatt13> Timeout = time.time() + 5
[19:36] <mfa298> and remember to make sure python interprets your checks in the same way you expect it to.
[19:36] <mclane> bertrik: understand. I am curious to see your results!
[19:36] <ibanezmatt13> while time.time() < Timeout
[19:37] <ibanezmatt13> I will check in the shell now
[19:37] <ibanezmatt13> wow
[19:37] <ibanezmatt13> jcoxon, yep
[19:37] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil, I believe it's really easy
[19:38] <ibanezmatt13> ooh wow
[19:38] <ibanezmatt13> time.time() returns 1370979308.245364
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[19:38] <ibanezmatt13> hmm
[19:38] <LeoBodnar> Evening gents
[19:38] <mfa298> wow just a bit of accuacy then.
[19:38] <ibanezmatt13> just a bit.
[19:38] <ibanezmatt13> Evening LeoBodnar
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[19:39] <mfa298> that looks like it's down to micro second accuracy.
[19:39] <LeoBodnar> Upu, are you around?
[19:39] <ibanezmatt13> Not sure what adding 5 will do to that :p
[19:39] <Upu> hey Leo here
[19:39] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: that's time in a nice useful format
[19:39] <LeoBodnar> :) Do you have MAX-7 in stock?
[19:39] <ibanezmatt13> is it?
[19:40] <Upu> nah can't get them at the moment
[19:40] <mfa298> well until 2037 at least (I think thats the year)
[19:40] <ibanezmatt13> well the pi is not realtime
[19:40] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> Bummer.
[19:40] <Upu> I ordered some but they keep putting it back so just got some more MAX6Q's instead
[19:40] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: it's unix time which is a count of seconds since sometime in the 1970s
[19:41] <ibanezmatt13> oh, that's... helpful???
[19:41] <Upu> unless you need 10Hz and the power 6Q's are just as good
[19:41] <mfa298> in terms of doing a timeout in seconds it makes life very easy
[19:41] <ibanezmatt13> so I can just add 5 to it then
[19:41] <ibanezmatt13> I didn't realise it was in seconds
[19:41] <mfa298> yes
[19:42] <ibanezmatt13> ok, well that's good
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> I have spotted that MAX-7s can be configured to output 10MHz on timepulse output. This makes me lose sleep.
[19:42] <mfa298> unix time is seconds since 1/1/1970
[19:42] <ibanezmatt13> wow
[19:42] <ibanezmatt13> that's cool
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[19:44] <mfa298> means you don't have to worry about crossing minute/hour/day boundaries. If you had a seconds count that was just 0-59 you've also got to check minutes, hours, days, months, etc.
[19:44] <ibanezmatt13> one slight issue
[19:44] <ibanezmatt13> in fact, not an issue if I do it in a different way
[19:45] <ibanezmatt13> Dave told me to add that timeout check paramater to my while loop with "and". But, if the timeout is acheived, it'll break out of the loop and execute the rest of the program which I don't want to happen
[19:45] <ibanezmatt13> So perhaps... a while loop within a while loop? :)
[19:46] <mfa298> or have the rest of your code handle the case that it failed to get a string within the timeout
[19:46] <ibanezmatt13> that doesn't sound easy
[19:46] <ibanezmatt13> relatively
[19:48] <ibanezmatt13> how would it know that it failed for this reason?
[19:48] <mfa298> depends on how you write your code
[19:48] <LeoBodnar> MAX-7 datasheet page 6. Frequency of time pulse signal: 0.25 Hz ... 10 MHz (configurable)
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[19:57] <Upu> I think you can up it in the MAX6's too LeoBodnar
[19:58] <LeoBodnar> I think MAX-6 is up to 1kHz only for non-"T" versions
[19:58] <LeoBodnar> U-BLOX seem to have merged "Timing" version of the product with the base one.
[19:59] <Upu> the Timing version was only availble in the NEO module
[19:59] <Upu> possibly
[19:59] <Upu> is this of use to you ?
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[19:59] <LeoBodnar> MAX-6 datasheet. Configurable Timepulse frequency range: 0.25 Hz to 1 kHz
[20:00] <Upu> ah ok
[20:00] <Upu> I've had 10 MAX7C's which are undergoing testing
[20:00] <Upu> none left at the moment
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> I see. I want to try to use 10MHz as an input to a UHF synthesiser reference clock. It needs to be reasonably high purity though.
[20:01] <Upu> ah ok the NEO-6T is probably the best bet at the moment
[20:02] <Upu> Darkside used some for that reason
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> back
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> jcoxon, I got a question on the EURUS code
[20:07] <jcoxon> Lunar_Lander, eek
[20:07] <jcoxon> go on
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> what was the lowest interval of repetition?
[20:07] <jcoxon> of what?
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> of the loop
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> let me explain
[20:07] <LeoBodnar> I think this can wait. I am using 1PPS as a reference on regular MAX-6. I'll leave some jumpers on the PCB for when MAX-7 is here.
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> you transmit the data line right
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> and this takes time
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> and when the transmitter is done, the loop repeats
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> what I am interested in is the GPS time, the difference it showed between two lines
[20:08] <jcoxon> oh i'm not sure
[20:08] <jcoxon> that code never flew
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> how comes?
[20:08] <jcoxon> long story
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:08] <jcoxon> not an issue with te code
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> you mean the code on the github right?
[20:08] <jcoxon> yup
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> it flew
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> at least the GPS instructions
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> on my flight
[20:09] <jcoxon> i suspect the gap between tx is about 1 second
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> and the thing is, each string took 22 seconds and the system was reasonably stable
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> I mean like it took about 20 seconds to broadcast at 50 bauds and then 2 seconds to read the sensors and GPS
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> the thing is, if you run that without a radio, just with an SD card behind it, it just takes about 4 seconds between each line
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> and the navmode reading is not that stable anymore, about every 2 minutes it goes to 0, 1, 78 and stuff like that
[20:11] <jcoxon> sure
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> but comes back to 6 every time
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> and I was wondering if that is sort of too quick for the ublox or something
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[20:21] <chrisstubbs> Lunar_Lander, do you check the checksum of the incoming NMEA string?
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> no
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> I am running in UBX
[20:22] <chrisstubbs> Ah right sorry, no idea then :P
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> no problem :)
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> I have thought of going NMEA
[20:23] <eroomde> once every 4 seconds should be fine for the ublox
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[20:23] <eroomde> it should be able to do 4 times every second
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> that is interesting
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> I have a routine that checks for the navmode and if it is not 6, it sends the code required for setting it to 6
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> but how can it drift in the modeß
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> why does it drop out of navmode 6 anyways
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> isn't it that it stores its settings as long as supplied with power?
[20:27] <x-f> Lunar_Lander, did you log the navmode value during the flight?
[20:27] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:28] <x-f> but the GPS worked above 12 km altitude?
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> all the way to the top
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> and mostly it was at 6
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> that thing with every four seconds now was a ground test
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[20:30] <x-f> i don't think it actually changes the mode, it is more like an issue with reporting it
[20:30] <x-f> also it reports impossible values
[20:31] <x-f> mine does the same sometimes, unfortunatelly there is no way to actually test it
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[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> the highest I got was 138 I think
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> :P
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[20:59] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening all
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[21:02] <ibanezmatt13> For testing my payload with its own power supply, what rechargable batteries would be OK for testing?
[21:02] <ibanezmatt13> I think we agreed on Duracell 2400mAh Ni-Mh but I just wanted to be sure
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> Those are probably sane
[21:02] <ibanezmatt13> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Duracell-Rechargeable-Accu-2400-Batteries/dp/B0031OE6LG/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1370984404&sr=8-8&keywords=battery+charger
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> However, don't discharge them below about 1v/cell in series, or you risk reverse charging one
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> (Which damages them, perhaps permenantly)
[21:03] <ibanezmatt13> In other words, don't run them flat?
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[21:03] <ibanezmatt13> I think they run at 1.2v
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> This isn't really a problem with an isolated cell.
[21:04] <ibanezmatt13> That's fine then, I'll be using them in parallel anyway, thanks :)
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> But, if you have 10 cells and discharge them to 5V, it's essentially certain that one or more cell will reverse.
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> Your payload is designed to run from 1.2v?
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> hi SP9UOB-Tom
[21:05] <ibanezmatt13> SpeedEvil: No I mean each battery is 1.2v, "I think"
[21:06] <ibanezmatt13> Which accumulates to more than enough when I add more
[21:06] <ibanezmatt13> Just one thing, do you know of a decent battery charger for these batteries?
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[21:13] <nigelvh> It's generally recommended not to discharge a NiMH below 0.7V per cell.
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> ibanezmatt13: Err - not quite.
[21:14] <ibanezmatt13> I'm pretty sure that won't happen. How could that happen though?
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> ibanezmatt13: Batteries vary in voltage with charge.
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> ibanezmatt13: At 100% charge, they are perhaps 1.55V. - fresh off the charger.
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> At 1%, they are maybe 0.9V
[21:15] <ibanezmatt13> I heard that they start at 1.5v but drop to about 1.2v and stay there until they're pretty much flat
[21:15] <nigelvh> Nominal on a NiMH is 1.2
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[21:15] <ibanezmatt13> If I have 6 in parallel powering my stuff, and I check the potential across the six of them, so long as that works out more than 1v per cell, I'll be ok?
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> If the batteries are matched to within 10%, that is their capacity is within 10% - then if you discharge them all to below 10% charge, some will hit 0% - and be reverse charged
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> yes
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> Much less, and you start needing to measure the voltage
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> on each cell
[21:16] <ibanezmatt13> So I should measure the potential on each cell before I connect everything up each time just to be sure?
[21:16] <nigelvh> Yes. That I agree with. A single cell cutoff of 1V is a bit more than you need.
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> Just charging them all to full in the charger is good.
[21:17] <ibanezmatt13> Ok, so I guess a standard universal charger will be fine?I
[21:17] <ibanezmatt13> I don't want to blow up my house if they go into thermal runway
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[21:19] <ibanezmatt13> I guess that will be ok: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lloytron-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B003VT70RI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1370984709&sr=8-3&keywords=battery+charger
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[21:25] <S_Mark> hello chrisstubbs
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[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> hello S_Mark
[21:31] <S_Mark> hello Lunar_Lander
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
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[21:33] <S_Mark> yeah good thank you, you?
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> me too, thanks
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> what are you up to?
[21:34] <S_Mark> nothing much this evening
[21:34] <S_Mark> need to buy them components soon
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[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> where do you buy your electronics?
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> evening dave
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> did you know you were on the german IT website Golem?
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[21:45] <nigelvh> Well isn't dave fancy. I'm on the internet too don't you know.
[21:46] <nigelvh> But NOOOOO apparently because dave likes pie he gets to be famous.
[21:46] <nigelvh> :P
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[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> hi nigelvh
[21:51] <daveake> Lunar_Lander No I can't keep track of my fame :p
[21:51] <nigelvh> Oh and now he rubs it in! I can't stand that daveake!!!
[21:52] <nigelvh> Halfway around the world isn't far enough!
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> wb S_Mark
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[22:11] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTHWBSluUjU
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[22:41] <heathkid> hello everyone
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[23:04] Nick change: Matt_soton -> mattbrejza
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[00:00] --- Wed Jun 12 2013