highaltitude.log.20130607

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[00:30] <MobileNathan> Does anyone know how to attach an external battery to a GoPro without soldering? And we also need to put the protective case on the GoPro. Any ideas?
[00:39] <MobileNathan> Can anyone see my previous message?
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[00:58] <MobileNathan> Does anyone know how to attach an external battery to a GoPro without soldering? And we also need to put the protective case on the GoPro. Any ideas?
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[01:00] <TheBeastPeacok> anyone know a good cheap parachute for a wheather baloon
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[01:58] <heathkid> http://spherachutes.com/
[01:58] <heathkid> though... I have *not* used them in a launch yet...
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[01:58] <heathkid> but they have come recommended to me...
[01:58] <heathkid> custom design and FAST shipping in the US
[01:59] <heathkid> I bought a couple because after the calculations on my payload... my 36" was WAY too big
[01:59] <MobileNathan> Thanks. That was my friend asking about the parachutes BTW, and he says thanks too.
[01:59] <heathkid> also make sure to add the HAB option
[01:59] <MobileNathan> Allrighty.
[01:59] <heathkid> again... I've *never* used them "yet"
[01:59] <heathkid> but I'm sure somone on here has
[02:00] <heathkid> and for your 600g balloon... either an 18" or 24" would be fine
[02:00] <heathkid> I bought both
[02:00] <MobileNathan> Ok, thanks for your help man.
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[02:05] <heathkid> do your research first... plan a 5m/s descent rate based on the weight of your payload
[02:06] <heathkid> ...and fingers crossed the balloon "parts" don't get tangled up... else you get a streamer
[02:07] <heathkid> remember if you do it right (to burst altitude)... you're going to drop about 70k ft. in 30 seconds or so...
[02:07] <heathkid> and hope your paraschute works
[02:07] <heathkid> if not... drag will slow it down to terminal velocity (terminal being the key word there)
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[02:08] <heathkid> I have the equipment to test my payload at a 600G half-sine pulse impact
[02:08] <heathkid> most don't
[02:09] <heathkid> I'll be testing absolutely everything
[02:09] <MobileNathan> Yeah, we don't.
[02:10] <MobileNathan> I can already tell your launch is going to go perfectly! I have a feeling there won't be one single glitch. You really got all this stuff covered, and you're testing it. Congrats man.
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[02:21] <heathkid> ...and yet I have absolutely no expectation of recovering my first. It'd be great for sure... but I'm hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.
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[02:23] <heathkid> am I the only one here now?
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[03:28] <mfa298> heathkid: you probably are, most of us are sleeping
[03:28] <mfa298> (or should be)
[03:32] <mfa298> TheBeastPeacok: for you and MobileNathan,I can't comment on powering the go pro, but the general advice is don't use the case or the anti fog strips with the go pro. they're not designed for high altitude / low pressure environments so cause more issues.
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[03:50] <nigelvh> Evening
[03:50] <arko> evening
[03:51] <nigelvh> How's things?
[03:51] <arko> good
[03:51] <arko> messing with my hackrf
[03:51] <nigelvh> "hackrf"?
[03:53] <arko> http://greatscottgadgets.com/hackrf/
[03:53] <arko> its an sdr
[03:53] <arko> in a beta program at the moment
[03:53] <arko> it should be on sale soon enough
[03:53] <arko> by the end of this year i think
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[03:55] <nigelvh> Cool
[04:03] <cardre> arko: Just reading about your hackrf and noticed I've missed the deadline. Any chance to grab one for some living 'down under'?
[04:04] <arko> wait, you were at Toorcon?
[04:04] <arko> it was a closed invite
[04:05] <cardre> oh sorry, i've kept reading and realised i'm putting my foot in my mouth...
[04:05] <cardre> so, no. But would've loved to have been!
[04:05] <arko> :)
[04:06] <cardre> it does sound like an impressive bit of kit and that's an awesome freq range
[04:12] <cardre> arko: ok, I've registered at GSG-announce to find out when they'll be available
[04:14] <arko> nice!
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[06:28] <ibanezmatt13> Good Morning :)
[06:34] <x-f> good morning
[06:36] <ibanezmatt13> Ordered some 2.54mm headers last night, they should arrive tomorrow. Then I can start making my prototype board. I should have that working at the end of the weekend, and if that works, I can make it permanent. :) Then I'll start working on the box.
[06:37] <ibanezmatt13> http://www.hindleys.com/index.php/materials/plastics-foam/sheet/styrofoam-high-density-polystyrene-foam.html is the 600x1245x25 ok or should I go for the 600x1245x50 ?
[06:39] <x-f> if it really is "high density" as the URL suggests, then 25mm is fine
[06:39] <x-f> i think
[06:39] <ibanezmatt13> I think S_Mark of Stratodean went for the 25.
[06:40] <ibanezmatt13> I'll work out how big we're making our box then I'll get some.
[06:41] <ibanezmatt13> We want to make it as small as possible. We have a backup GPRS tracker, a Pi Model A, the NTX2 GPS stripboard, and a Pi Cam. The Pi Cam weighs very little so in theory we should have a pretty light payload. I guess there doesn't need to be any free space in the box, or does there?
[06:42] <x-f> don't forget the batteries
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[06:42] <ibanezmatt13> and those, of course
[06:42] <fsphil> less open space the better
[06:43] <ibanezmatt13> http://www.daveakerman.com/?attachment_id=1155 perhaps not as good, but very little free space
[06:43] <ibanezmatt13> We wouldn't make it as good as that
[06:43] <costyn> that's lovely :)
[06:43] <costyn> what are the NTXes encased in? Shrink tubing?
[06:44] <ibanezmatt13> it really is. So if we went for something similar, minus the raspberry design, you reckon that would be ok. I'm just weary of them overheating
[06:44] <costyn> depends on how well you close the seams
[06:44] <costyn> but it's going to get cold inside at any rate
[06:45] <ibanezmatt13> alright. I'll design my box and I'll send you the draw ups in the next few days
[06:46] <ibanezmatt13> for the 3 RF pins on the NTX2, I believe you can just use a standard connector, like an SMA or something. Do those connectors have 3 pins on them and go straight into the three pins on the NTX2?
[06:47] <x-f> ibanezmatt13, follow the Ed's Rule - your payload must withstand a drop down the stairs :)
[06:47] <ibanezmatt13> haha, perhaps I shouldn't try that :)
[06:47] <x-f> no, seriously
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13> deliberately drop the final thing down the stairs... hmm
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[06:48] <x-f> it's on the wiki!
[06:48] <ibanezmatt13> alright I'll have a look. I've gotta head to school for a revision session. Have a good day :)
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[06:48] <x-f> you don't need to actually drop it, but you must be sure it had no damage if you would
[06:49] <x-f> heh.
[06:49] <x-f> he needs a permanent IRC connection
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[08:11] <costyn> yea was going to answer his ntx/sma question, but if he's gone...
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[08:23] <Babs> costyn, you could answer my question if you want ;-) I have a great one
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[08:24] <x-f> the answer is 42
[08:25] <Babs> done. thanks x-f.
[08:25] <x-f> :)
[08:25] <Babs> Actually, I have been called away from my desk, I'll ask in an hour or so
[08:25] <daveake> Someone should put that answer in the wiki
[08:25] <daveake> Would save us a lot of work, as that question comes up so often
[08:27] <costyn> daveake: how to connect the ntx to an antenna?
[08:27] <daveake> superglue
[08:28] <costyn> heh
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[08:44] <WillDuckworth> hey daveake - quick question - with your later pi flights - why did you decide to shift the transmission out to the arduino? was it purely for the higher bandwidth - or something else?
[08:44] <daveake> 2 radio channels
[08:44] <daveake> Next flight it'll be direct again. Though next flight has 2 payloads and 2 Pis :)
[08:46] <WillDuckworth> cool - thought as much, cheers
[08:46] <WillDuckworth> is the gps though i2c working ok?
[08:46] <Upu> hey WillDuckworth
[08:47] <Upu> your module is sat here
[08:47] <Upu> if you want to collect it :)
[08:47] <WillDuckworth> he he
[08:48] <cuddykid> morning WillDuckworth
[08:48] <WillDuckworth> morning
[08:48] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth: got 2 H2 cylinders lying on the drive :)
[08:49] <daveake> Yes i2c GPS works well
[08:49] <daveake> Bitbanging tho - the Pi i2c driver doesn't work with the ublox. Well it didn't then - might be fixed by now
[08:50] <WillDuckworth> good to know - thanks
[08:51] <Upu> think I might back this SD up
[08:52] <Upu> 24 hours is a significant investment in time
[08:52] <WillDuckworth> what ya working on Upu?
[08:53] <Upu> wrong channel actually but a Stratum 1 NTP server based on a Pi
[08:53] <Upu> but recompiling the kernel
[08:53] <Upu> 12 hours in and still going
[08:54] <cuddykid> oh yes, definitely back up! The amount of times I've had my SD corrupted by the damn pi
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[08:54] <cuddykid> well, what I do for the only script I have on it, is work on it locally then scp it over
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[09:07] <DanielRichman> Upu: compiling the kernel on the Pi itself? That doesn't sound fun
[09:07] <DanielRichman> cross compile :P
[09:07] <Upu> yes
[09:07] <Upu> may hve too
[09:07] <Upu> didn't realise HOW slow it was
[09:08] <Gadget-Mac> Morning all
[09:08] <DanielRichman> are you building a realtime kernel or something?
[09:09] <Upu> add PPS support
[09:10] <DanielRichman> you should totally give it a hardware random number generator and make it serve that as well
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[09:16] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: GPS working with Pi then ?
[09:16] <Upu> yeah that bit is fine
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[09:18] <chrisstubbs> RFM22B is in the chamber :D
[09:18] <Upu> I look forward to the results :)
[09:20] <Upu> Gadget-Mac http://i.imgur.com/sAXDJZ2.png
[09:21] <Upu> typical Adafruit module though
[09:21] <Upu> its way out
[09:21] <Gadget-Mac> Now that looks familiar :)
[09:21] <Upu> Will probably switch it to a ublox at some point
[09:21] <Gadget-Mac> They work well :)
[09:21] <Upu> 3D fix but the altitude is 180 meters out
[09:21] Nick change: zarya_ -> zarya
[09:23] <Gadget-Mac> Found a nice box for mounting Pi on a Pole: http://www.rfelements.com/en/products/enclosures/stationbox-alu/
[09:26] <Upu> looks expensive :)
[09:31] <Gadget-Mac> You might be surprised.
[09:31] <Gadget-Mac> There's this as well: http://linitx.com/product/stationbox-mikro-enclosure-with-24ghz-9db-mimo-antenna/13240
[09:32] <Gadget-Mac> Although, antenna isn't much use for HAB work
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[09:48] <chrisstubbs> Looks like we may have got the module to die
[09:49] <chrisstubbs> it had come back to life and the waterfall had scrolled off by the time i could get the door code in and check on it haha, screen cap should have got it though
[09:50] <chrisstubbs> pic.twitter.com/O4AySKbYcc
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[10:03] <HixWork> Upu http://www.dashware.net/ is some software for video overlaying there's a trial but full package is only something like $49.99
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[10:09] <LeoBodnar> SOmebody said yesterday that there is a list of lightest balloon payloads somewhere. I am interested to see how we are fairing. We had 47 grammes on B-1 yesterday.
[10:11] <Randomskk> hah, that's pretty decent
[10:11] <Randomskk> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:flight_data?s[]=flight&s[]=list has some payloads
[10:11] <Randomskk> though nothing below 50g
[10:13] <Chetic> I'm reading this: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:sdr_tracker
[10:13] <cn8dn> please the file to ardunio uno for Radiometrix NTX2, gps, please Temperature thank you
[10:13] <Chetic> what kind of antenna do I need on ground to track a 30km altitude HAB payload?
[10:14] <Chetic> as in, how much would it cost?
[10:14] <craag> Chetic: Are you looking for something to set up at home, or put on a car?
[10:14] <Chetic> on a car
[10:15] <LeoBodnar> Can we make it in the lightest records table then? :-o
[10:15] <Babs> Morning all - so I have a question and (Daveake), I don't think the answer is 42
[10:15] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: what conditions are you testing?
[10:15] <Babs> I have one of these https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10736 and I have it nicely calculating yaw, pitch and roll in degrees.]
[10:15] <craag> chetic one mo, I'll dig out the one we tend to recommend
[10:16] <Chetic> appreciate it!
[10:16] <Babs> So far so, good. Now, I want to link it to my arduino uno and drive servos based on the values of yaw, pitch and roll
[10:17] <Babs> Now, if the IMU was a Ublox, there is a comms protocol in the Ublox and I just ask it for the value according to the protocol
[10:17] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid: cycling the rfm22b from +10 to -50 and back
[10:17] <Upu> LeoBodnar https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/PAVA/IMG_1260.JPG
[10:17] <cuddykid> ah nice
[10:17] <chrisstubbs> seems to be packing up when the temp is on its way back up
[10:17] <Upu> Toss up between that and SP9UOB's payloads
[10:17] <Babs> Which is the best way to get the values of the yaw, pitch and roll from the IMU into the program running on the separate arduino uno?
[10:17] <chrisstubbs> stopped at -10c just now then came back to life at +10c
[10:18] <Upu> hey chrisstubbs so RFM died @ -10 ?
[10:18] <chrisstubbs> Yeah so far
[10:18] <Upu> very interesting
[10:18] <Babs> Is it to just print to serial from the IMU at regular intervals, or is to try and request the yaw, pitch and roll from the arduino?
[10:18] <chrisstubbs> 2 more cycles left to go so will go and check up on it when it gets close again to see if its consistent
[10:19] <fsphil_> That's quite warm for it to fail
[10:19] <craag> Chetic: Something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EX-108UV-2M-70CM-DUAL-BAND-ANTENNA-AERIAL-WITH-MINI-MAG-MOUNT-BNC-CONNECTOR/111030991650?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D8206208413985315168%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D181099870122%26
[10:19] <craag> ouch sorry
[10:19] <craag> looong url
[10:19] <chrisstubbs> Upu note: the temp went down from +20 to -50 and the module was fine, soaked at -50 for 5 mins, still fine, then died at -10 when the temp was rising back up to ambient
[10:19] <Chetic> that's a hell lot cheaper than I thought craag
[10:20] <LeoBodnar> Our 47 grammes included the parachute :)
[10:20] <Chetic> craag: will it really suffice?
[10:20] <Upu> well parachute is 1g if that :)
[10:20] <Upu> Toms SEBA-2 was 38g
[10:20] <craag> Chetic: Yes
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[10:20] <craag> What receiver are you using?
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[10:21] <Chetic> I haven't decided
[10:21] <Chetic> what do you recommend?
[10:21] <Upu> its a silly record anyway as mattbrejza could win it immediately by launching his thing with a AAA battery
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[10:22] <LeoBodnar> Payload is 42 grammes
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[10:23] <craag> Chetic: Depends on your budget, rtlsdr sticks are v cheap and work ok. But a real radio like an FT790 is a lot more sensitive and a bit easier to manage when mobile.
[10:23] <Upu> is that with the GSM module or without it LeoBodnar
[10:24] <Chetic> craag: easier to manage how?
[10:25] <Chetic> I think I could spend a bit more on ground stuff that I know I won't lose :p
[10:27] <craag> Chetic: The rtlsdr sticks need extra software on the laptop to tune them, so need a faster laptop, and it relies a lot more on using a mouse in a moving car.. which personally I struggle a bit with.
[10:27] <craag> I do chase with the rtl-sdr sticks myself due to budget, and they do work fine.
[10:27] <LeoBodnar> Upu, this time we flew with unpopulated GSM area. Should have hacked the PCB off to save weight probably
[10:28] <craag> Radio is also a bit easier to carry around in the field when you're trying to find it after landing.
[10:28] <Chetic> very fair points craag
[10:29] <Upu> lol
[10:29] <Upu> no need LeoBodnar the balloon went up didn't it ? :)
[10:29] <Upu> work out why it failed, fix, launch again :)
[10:29] <Upu> I have a pico here which I'm toying with launching tomorrow morning
[10:30] <LeoBodnar> I want to make the lightest payload. I have a sub 1 gramme PIC/UHF transmitter PCB but it needs GPS module.
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[10:31] <eroomde> it's always gps that screws it up
[10:31] <LeoBodnar> Will keep an eye on it :)
[10:31] <craag> Upu: I'm designing a CC430 based tracker, the AAA battery is the bit that's far too heavy!
[10:31] <eroomde> with mass and power consumption
[10:31] <Randomskk> we clearly need to make this reverse gps thing
[10:31] <Upu> hey craag be interested to see how you get on with that
[10:31] <Upu> I have a circuit diagram
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[10:35] <Ugi> I have a new old radio with only the rubber duck ATM. Do you reckon this is worth it's weight? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300714094809
[10:35] <Ugi> Only £16.50 delivered
[10:36] <daveake> Slightly less, though with SMA plug not BNC http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antenna-433Mhz-3dbi-SMA-Plug-straight-with-Magnetic-base-with-1-5m-/290659276552?pt=UK_Computing_Boosters_Extenders_Antennas&hash=item43aca49708
[10:37] <Upu> I just get a Diamond MR-77
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[10:38] <Ugi> daveeake - that's amazing, but do they differ much in reception? Seems like they are mostly a bit of wire on a magnet
[10:38] <daveake> That's exactly what they are
[10:39] <Brace> dumb question, but if you had a really light payload and a really big balloon, would it go higher?
[10:41] <daveake> Well, all the flights at the top of the UKHAS record table were sub 100g payloads with 1600g balloons
[10:41] <Ugi> So not much to call between £5 and £20, save that the former ships from China?
[10:42] <daveake> The latter has an SMA plug however I think you can request BNC
[10:42] <Ugi> Sure, or I could fit a BNC, although Maplin probably charge as much for the plug as the antenna costs!
[10:43] <daveake> yup
[10:43] <number10> looking a bit windy for getting neck lift right :(
[10:43] <daveake> Yeah what happened to the nice weather we were supposed to be getting?
[10:43] <Brace> daveake: ? it's lovely here
[10:43] <mfa298> a magmount antenna really needs to be mounted on a metal surface (like a car) they're not so good without the metal base
[10:43] <Brace> has been all week
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[10:44] <Brace> (here is South Wales) clear blue skies, low 20s temps
[10:44] <daveake> overcast and a few drops of rain here
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[10:44] <mattbrejza> thunder and lightning here...
[10:44] <number10> its bright here but the wind is a bit high - tomorrow more cloud
[10:44] <mfa298> I think I heard a few bits of thunder down here early in the morning
[10:44] <number10> wher are yoy mattbrejza
[10:44] <number10> you
[10:45] <mattbrejza> soton
[10:45] <costyn> Babs: did you get an answer to your question? read through it, I don't know enough about it unfortunately
[10:45] <mattbrejza> ah craag you going to cc430?
[10:45] <HixWork> I've just been corrected in some calcs by my senior eng that 1Pa=0.001 kg/(mm^2 )!!!!! not (1^-6)N/(mm^2) as i so stupidly thought
[10:46] <Ugi> mfa298: sure - I was thinking for the car. Am aiming to get a real antenna put on the TV pole when we get some roof work done later this year.
[10:46] <craag> mattbrejza: I am, with the balun I see no reason not to.
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[10:46] <mattbrejza> other than QFN being a pain
[10:47] <craag> Yeah.. I've also found a TDFN regulator to raise the 'fun factor'
[10:47] <mattbrejza> tps62100?
[10:47] <craag> It'll be a challenge, but hopefully a productive one
[10:47] <craag> No, MAX1947
[10:47] <mattbrejza> ive fallen out of favour of stepups
[10:47] <mattbrejza> half the time they just dont work
[10:47] <mattbrejza> as your inductor is slightly on the shitty side
[10:47] <mattbrejza> or something else
[10:48] <craag> Yeah I've used 2xAAA and 1.8V linear regs on my recent boards (eg the 868)
[10:48] <craag> But not an option for this :/
[10:49] <Upu> I've used LTC3526 which is 2mmx2mm DFN and had no issues soldering
[10:49] <mattbrejza> that balun will give you a size advantage
[10:49] <mattbrejza> Upu: oven?
[10:49] <Upu> hand
[10:49] <mattbrejza> just a fine tip?
[10:49] <Upu> yep
[10:49] <Babs> costyn - no
[10:49] <craag> impressive
[10:50] <mattbrejza> ive done it both ways before, but for hand it helps to have longer pads
[10:50] <Upu> this is absolutey the truth
[10:50] <costyn> Babs: is there no 'best practice' in communicating between 2 arduino's?
[10:50] <mattbrejza> i think the oven way causes less stress to the device
[10:50] <mattbrejza> bbl
[10:51] <Babs> costyn - i just got there sliughtly after you
[10:51] <Babs> it is like communicating between 2 arduinos
[10:51] <costyn> Babs: I think either serial or i2c?
[10:55] <Babs> costyn - will look into it. as soon as you said communicate between two arduinos the lightbulb clicked. they are both atmega328 based so it should be the same in practice even though the IMU doesnt look like one
[10:55] <Babs> as an aside its a very cool bit of kit
[10:55] <Ugi> SPI is bi-directional and available on al AVRs: http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/SPI
[10:56] <costyn> Babs: dude... thats an expensive piece of kit!
[10:56] <Babs> costyn - it is. I treated myself :-)
[10:56] <Babs> costyn - I reckon this is the answer http://www.billporter.info/2011/05/30/easytransfer-arduino-library/
[10:57] <Babs> ?
[10:57] <Babs> put my pitch yaw and roll into the structure in the imu, then similar into the uno and done (famous last words)
[10:58] <Babs> EDIT: pitch, yaw and roll variables
[10:58] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: Thanks for the LTC3526 pointer, spooky, was just looking at how to power a 1.8v project
[10:58] <costyn> Babs: this looks good yea
[10:59] <costyn> Babs: but the serial data the unit outputs is no good?
[10:59] <costyn> Babs: I mean, why not use serial.read?
[11:01] <Babs> costyn - that might work, I am just a real beginner when it comes to code
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[11:02] <Babs> what i like about that library in particular is that it just uses sensible things like a checksum to check data integrity . things that if i ever managed to write a protocol comm myself i would never get around to
[11:02] <costyn> Babs: actually the object method might be easier
[11:03] <costyn> Babs: because you have to parse the serial data too
[11:03] <costyn> Babs: which is a pain
[11:04] <Babs> I'll look into it. damn, being called away again from my desk...
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[11:07] <costyn> Babs: can't believe they have an actual gyro in there
[11:07] <costyn> Babs: technology these days is incredible
[11:07] <Babs> I know, it must be a really small motor in there ;-)
[11:08] <costyn> and it's less than 1mm thick
[11:08] <costyn> unbelievable
[11:08] <Babs> it is seriously impressive though. If I can indeed get the data out and into the arduino, then using that arduino to drive servos to correct for the orientation and keep a camera (or any object stable) should be doable
[11:09] <Babs> have to go. thanks costyn, you've been a great help
[11:09] <costyn> Babs: ok :)
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[11:35] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: Did you do any PCB design with the LTC3526 ?
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[12:35] <Upu> yes Gadget-Mac
[12:36] <Gadget-Mac> Cool. Eagle library part ?
[12:37] <Laurenceb> https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s403x403/945779_606608346026847_194492868_n.jpg
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[12:41] <Upu> yes actually
[12:41] <Upu> but you may find the TPS61200 easier
[12:41] <Upu> just
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[12:42] <Upu> the LTC is nasty to solder
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[12:43] <Gadget-Mac> marginally cheaper as well
[12:45] <Upu> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihtmsn22198q96d/LTC3526.lbr
[12:47] <Gadget-Mac> Other than soldering and price, they seem very much a comparable device
[12:48] <HixWork> That is a fancy bit of kit Babs has bought eh?
[12:49] <x-f> Babs makes fancy payloads
[12:49] <eroomde> news at 10
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[13:09] <costyn> heh
[13:09] <costyn> is he trying to make his camera system even more stabilized?
[13:10] <costyn> Babs: looked at that EasyTransfer library again. looks very cool and useful
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[13:11] <Brace> my mate has a 6DOF sensor and we're planning on flying that
[13:11] <Brace> Babs's sensor rather beats ours :)
[13:11] <eroomde> it's sensor(s) [plural] on his isn;t it?
[13:12] <eroomde> or has he got an itnegrated gyro/accel/mag?
[13:12] <costyn> eroomde: all those yes
[13:13] <eroomde> link?
[13:13] <costyn> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10736
[13:13] <eroomde> i've come across an invensense thing
[13:13] <Laurenceb> anyone know a solvent for cyanoacrylate residue?
[13:13] <eroomde> ah we're defining sensor diferently
[13:13] <eroomde> i meant as a single unit
[13:13] <eroomde> rather than multiple sensors on a pcb
[13:14] <costyn> yea this is multiple sensors with an avr on it
[13:14] <costyn> not sure yet if thats a pro or a con :)
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[13:16] <eroomde> well i like raw
[13:17] <eroomde> because i don't trust other people to do things right
[13:17] <eroomde> i'd rather design my own PCB
[13:17] <eroomde> but... that's often not the most pragmatic thing
[13:17] <costyn> well you have different needs than most of us :)
[13:17] <eroomde> our gps receiver will now do real time on a pc104 board
[13:17] <eroomde> 1000 positions per second
[13:18] <eroomde> (because you really need that many)
[13:18] <eroomde> but still, it crossed the magic threshold to real time yesterday evening
[13:18] <eroomde> so now i'm looking at inertial sensors and how best to fuse them
[13:18] <LeoBodnar> I am using TPS62231 - it is smaller than 2x2 DFNs
[13:21] <LeoBodnar> Oops, sorry, you were talking about step-ups
[13:21] <costyn> eroomde: 1000/sec that snuts
[13:21] <LeoBodnar> I am stepping down from LiPo level to 1.8V
[13:23] <LeoBodnar> eroomde, what GPS silicon do you use?
[13:24] <HixWork> I've been talking with a very respected polar explorer and photographer about DSLR use at low temps. Seems as though Nikon D2/3/4 series are all up to the job of -70 for a few hours. So, I could be looking at a fairly hefty payload in the near future
[13:24] <HixWork> with a kin big chute
[13:24] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: custom
[13:25] <eroomde> RF front end to mix down to an intermediate freq of 4MHz, sample that with an ADC at 16MHz, and then get it onto a computer
[13:25] <LeoBodnar> Get Nikon F4 film camera with additional spool film back Hix :)
[13:26] <LeoBodnar> I see, eeroomde, the right way!
[13:26] <LeoBodnar> TCXO or OCXO for 1st LO?
[13:27] <eroomde> TCXO
[13:27] <eroomde> it's just a wee pcb
[13:27] <LeoBodnar> Is it stable enough?!
[13:27] <eroomde> one sec i have a piccy
[13:27] <eroomde> yeah!
[13:27] <LeoBodnar> Good job!
[13:27] <eroomde> but our tracking algorithms are based on nice bayesian things
[13:27] <eroomde> so they are quite robust
[13:28] <LeoBodnar> why "but"? lol
[13:28] <eroomde> well, i'm saying they could cope better with an untable LO more than say a conventional PLL based sat tracking system
[13:28] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9www6tzkm6i9e47/2013-05-24%2018.48.49.jpg
[13:29] <eroomde> basically we put the positions of each sat we can see into a big kalman filter, and we pose it as a problem to estimate when we're expecting the signal from each sat given we know where we are and the sats are
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[13:29] <eroomde> and then measure when the signal actually comes in
[13:30] <eroomde> and multiply the two distributions to get a better estimate
[13:30] <eroomde> it works a treat, the error bars are tiny compared to convenional techniques
[13:30] <Ugi> Laurenceeb: CA dissolves in hot water (slowly)
[13:30] <eroomde> 'error bars', by which i mean the 1 standard deviation ellipses for the cloud of points you get when you receive
[13:30] <LeoBodnar> Fantastic job. I wanted to try raw GPS as well for a long time. Care to hint at the 1st mixer maker?
[13:31] <eroomde> maxim
[13:31] <HixWork> LeoBodnar, I have an F4, though no back....
[13:31] <HixWork> 36Exp not up to HAB
[13:32] <costyn> eroomde: very cool... and this is going into a rocket or ... ?
[13:32] <eroomde> anything that might need it
[13:32] <eroomde> but yes, given it's me, your guess is good :)
[13:32] <LeoBodnar> You are probably sitting on a good investment Hix
[13:33] <LeoBodnar> WHo did the TCXO bodge? :)
[13:33] <Upu> I was just looking at that :)
[13:33] <eroomde> er...
[13:33] <eroomde> yes i did the footprint for it back to front
[13:33] <Upu> lol
[13:33] <eroomde> i sometimes do stupid things like that
[13:34] <Upu> those crystals are symmetric ?
[13:34] <eroomde> well actually it wasn't back to front, it was just wrong, because i misread 'VC' on the datasheet as 'VCC'
[13:34] <eroomde> i.e. voltage control rather than power
[13:34] <eroomde> so it had too much voltses going up its control jacksie
[13:35] <Upu> ok
[13:35] <eroomde> will fix for v2
[13:35] <eroomde> v2 will be dual frequency
[13:35] <eroomde> so we can get down to about 2cm position error
[13:35] <Upu> thats rather good
[13:35] <eroomde> at 1kHz :)
[13:35] <Upu> showing my nubness here
[13:36] <Upu> but I thought GPS down to that level was encrypted
[13:36] <Upu> or something
[13:36] <eroomde> the military gps frequencies are
[13:36] <eroomde> but there are now 2 civilian frequencies
[13:36] <eroomde> L1 (1575 MHz) and L2C (1228 MHz)
[13:36] <eroomde> well there are more than 2 now, but that's by-the-by
[13:36] <Upu> oh didn't realise there was a military separate one
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[13:37] <eroomde> and so in principle (and I'm sure practice) you can use both of them to properly estimate the electrical path length through the troposphere and ionosphere (which is different to euclian distance as it's not vacuum) and further you can tell which carrier phase cycle you're in
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[13:37] <eroomde> euclidian*
[13:37] <HixWork> LeoBodnar, I don't think so anymore, the arse has fallen out of 35mm http://goo.gl/jcFrN
[13:37] <WillDuckworth> the important question is--- when will they appear in HAB supplies?!?
[13:37] <Upu> lol
[13:37] <eroomde> they'll be like 20W
[13:38] <eroomde> not for picos :)
[13:38] <LeoBodnar> sad
[13:38] <eroomde> i do actually have a plan for something with 90% of that performance for a small credit-card size board consuming about 2W
[13:39] <eroomde> but that's more dev work than just porting it to a core i7 PC104 board
[13:39] <HixWork> yup - there are some awesome 35mm bodies on the scrapheap as people now believe an iphone to be the weapon of choice
[13:39] <costyn> eroomde: but aren't there laws which say you can't make gps systems this accurate as a civilian?
[13:39] <eroomde> no
[13:39] <WillDuckworth> nope
[13:39] <Upu> tbh if you could get it to within 1meter but with no limits under acceleration the amateur rocketary chaps would love you
[13:39] <eroomde> yes i know
[13:39] <eroomde> on it
[13:39] <WillDuckworth> i want
[13:39] <Upu> lol
[13:40] <eroomde> except it's a bit illegal
[13:40] <eroomde> well, CoCom uncompliant anyway
[13:40] <Upu> only if you export it
[13:40] <eroomde> and i haven't yet paid for a lawyer to tell me what the liability is
[13:40] <eroomde> i'm not so sure that's true actually
[13:40] <HixWork> I had some fanboy ridicule my D2Hs as it's only 4MP. I tried to explain that pixel count really isn't that important, but image processing [or lack of] and sensor size were
[13:40] <HixWork> fell on deaf ears
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[13:40] <costyn> eroomde: but if you can make it, surely well funded terrorists can as well. so whats the point of the gps manufacturers putting in these boundaries? and aren't there manufacturers that provide the same level of accuracy? (if not, why not?)
[13:40] <eroomde> it's a bit complicated and to do with being a NATO member state
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[13:41] <eroomde> costyn: yes that's my reasoning
[13:41] <eroomde> well, *a* gps receiver is pretty easy
[13:41] <eroomde> took a few evenings
[13:41] <LeoBodnar> you might need export licence if you are exporting them accurate GPS though
[13:41] <eroomde> that'd be good enough for your homemade naughty missile
[13:41] <HixWork> as opposed to good missile ;p
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[13:41] <costyn> LeoBodnar: but people who do lawless things aren't going to adhere to export licenses
[13:41] <eroomde> but it's been a lot of work to get the advanced tracking algorithms running smoothly
[13:42] <costyn> eroomde: so interpreting the data at a high data rate you mean?
[13:42] <Gadget-Mac> hmmm. Rocket, and <5cm acurracy..........
[13:42] <eroomde> yes partly
[13:42] <eroomde> so, when a gps receiver gives you 1Hz positions, it's actually calculating loads and loads of positions
[13:42] Action: Gadget-Mac waits for the knock on the door.
[13:42] <costyn> Gadget-Mac: my thoughts too :)
[13:42] <eroomde> and if you were to plot them all raw, they'd have a spread of maybe 100-200m
[13:43] <HixWork> eroomde works for the government if certain bots are to be believed
[13:43] <eroomde> because they just use simple tracking algos that are susceptible to noise and stuff
[13:43] <HixWork> speaking of which is he/it still about on here?
[13:43] <eroomde> so they basically average them all and spit out the average
[13:43] <eroomde> which is good to within a few meters
[13:43] <eroomde> but if you want 1000 samples per second, each and every sample has to be good
[13:43] <LeoBodnar> Have look here, if it's there then you need export licence to sell one https://www.gov.uk/uk-strategic-export-control-lists-the-consolidated-list-of-strategic-military-and-dual-use-items
[13:43] <costyn> eroomde: ok, so taking the average is what normal gpses do then?
[13:44] <eroomde> because you can't average a bunch of them (there are only 1000 pings per sattelite per second)
[13:44] <HixWork> I'll avoid that link thanks LeoBodnar :)
[13:44] <LeoBodnar> I don't think you have to bother with building and owning one but it would be a sweet commercial project
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[13:44] <eroomde> so we have to make much better tracking algorithms so each of the decoded solutions is usable
[13:44] <costyn> eroomde: cool
[13:44] <costyn> eroomde: makes sense, thanks
[13:44] <eroomde> now with the one we have now, 1000 samples sit within an ellipse about 3m in the long axis
[13:44] <costyn> HixWork: was it determined that "it" was a bot?
[13:44] <eroomde> whereas on a convential receiver that ellipse would be probably 100-200m in the long axis
[13:45] <HixWork> it was a bitter bot
[13:45] <eroomde> infact if you look at this DIY gps receiver on hackaday receontly
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> I meant to say it is not illegal to make whatever you want even if you can't export it
[13:45] <eroomde> http://www.holmea.demon.co.uk/GPS/Main.htm
[13:45] <HixWork> wow someone still uses demon
[13:46] <eroomde> take a look at the 3 graphs above the subheading 'Signal Monitor' about 2/3 of the way down
[13:46] <eroomde> north facing ledge, rooftop, east-facing etc
[13:46] <eroomde> those are 1000 raw samples from his receiver
[13:46] <eroomde> those grid squares are 100m
[13:47] <eroomde> so you can see the kinds of spreads you get with PLL tracking (which is what 99.999% of them use)
[13:47] <eroomde> 111m grid squares according to the text, sorry
[13:48] <eroomde> so you see why (aswell has just cpu overhead) most GPSes don't do much better than 1-10Hz
[13:49] <Gadget-Mac> Nice eroomde :)
[13:49] <costyn> yea
[13:50] <LeoBodnar> From THE LIST: Receiving equipment for Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS; e.g. GPS, [M11A3] GLONASS, or Galileo), having any of the following characteristics, and specially designed components therefor:
[13:50] <LeoBodnar> Designed or modified for airborne applications and having any of the following: 1. Capable of providing navigation information at speeds in excess of 600 m/s; 2. Employing decryption, designed or modified for military or governmental services, to gain access to GNSS secured signal/data; or 3. Being specially designed to employ anti-jam features (e.g. null steering antenna or electronically steerable antenna) to function in an
[13:51] <LeoBodnar> So you are OK then :) just limit speed to 600m/s and don't use anti-jam features
[13:51] <LeoBodnar> Note: 7A105.b.2. and 7A105.b.3. do not control equipment designed for commercial, civil or 'Safety of Life' (e.g., data integrity, flight safety) GNSS services.
[13:51] <eroomde> it truncated
[13:51] <eroomde> but i presume i can do whatever i want internally
[13:52] <costyn> as long as you don't sell it to shady characters on the streetcorner :P
[13:52] <Ugi> eroomde: if you averaged your samples to, say 10Hz, what sort of accuracy would you get?
[13:52] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/AstGT1p.png
[13:52] <LeoBodnar> Definitely, it's only for commercial exports of commercial items abroad.
[13:52] <eroomde> that wee ellipse is the ellipsified version of the cloud of 1000 points
[13:52] <eroomde> i.e. 1s of static data
[13:52] <costyn> wow
[13:52] <eroomde> from the window sill at work
[13:53] <costyn> very small
[13:53] <costyn> eroomde: except we now all know where you work
[13:53] <HixWork> you're just cheating at this parachute comp arent you eroomde ?
[13:53] <eroomde> you all know anyway
[13:53] <eroomde> you just have to ask :)
[13:54] <eroomde> the chute is still actually in the drawer
[13:54] <eroomde> we just got my dream project through
[13:54] <eroomde> which will keep me mega busy for most of the next year
[13:54] <Ugi> That ellips is incredible!
[13:54] <eroomde> i should have something interesting to add to the ukhas alt records table at the end of it :)
[13:55] <costyn> eroomde: but will it be considered 'amateur'? :)
[13:55] Action: HixWork thinks we should quickly change it to UK amateur High Altitude Society ;)
[13:55] <eroomde> well, i started as an amateur...
[13:56] <costyn> HixWork: you said it :)
[13:56] <HixWork> http://goo.gl/xiKE8 isn't this pretty much the same as Babs' but without the AVR?
[13:56] <HixWork> sensors look the same spec
[13:56] <HixWork> but 1/5 pricce
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[13:57] <eroomde> not my fault it turned into a job :)
[13:57] <eroomde> i do want it to have a 70cm rtty tracker
[13:57] <eroomde> fo shiggles
[13:57] <HixWork> so HAB will be used for testing and verification?
[13:57] <eroomde> possibly comms
[13:57] <costyn> HixWork: looks it... does it have the same components?
[13:57] <eroomde> i think the plan is to do some amatuer-type solid rocket launches of the avionics pod
[13:57] <HixWork> costyn ITG3200/ITG3205 ADXL345 HMC5883L
[13:57] <eroomde> and a hab flight
[13:58] <HixWork> ITG-3200 - triple-axis digital-output gyroscope
[13:58] <HixWork> ADXL345 - 13-bit resolution, ±16g, triple-axis accelerometer
[13:58] <HixWork> HMC5883L - triple-axis, digital magnetometer
[13:58] <HixWork> so yup
[13:58] <costyn> HixWork: interesting
[13:58] <costyn> HixWork: don't tell Babs :)
[13:58] <HixWork> though HMC5883L ~£5 Adxl345 ~£10
[13:59] <HixWork> this board seems cheaper than parts alone
[13:59] <HixWork> he won't care i don't think after the #£800 on RP
[13:59] <eroomde> i'm buying some of those black AD 9-axis monoliths
[13:59] <eroomde> they're a bit spendier but they come with well specified (and good) orthogonality and off-axis compensation
[13:59] <fsphil> yikes [OT]: http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&subpage_0=10
[14:00] <HixWork> Hmmm
[14:00] Action: HixWork thinks of the amusement value of a Jacko style CAD control glove - he heeee
[14:00] <HixWork> shammmmoooown
[14:01] <costyn> fsphil: woa
[14:01] <costyn> fsphil: I see I'm in the right place
[14:01] <costyn> fsphil: it's absolutely awesome weather here now
[14:01] <fsphil> or wrong :)
[14:01] <fsphil> same here -- proper summer day
[14:02] <costyn> fsphil: wot? in ireland?
[14:02] <HixWork> any idea how often that refreshes fsphil ?
[14:03] <fsphil> costyn: amazingly yes
[14:03] <x-f> i'm not in the right place :/
[14:03] <fsphil> clear blue skies
[14:03] <fsphil> really hot
[14:03] <fsphil> HixWork: 1 minute
[14:04] <HixWork> cool bookmarked for the cameraaxe - might finally be able to gague when to get it out now
[14:04] <HixWork> gauge
[14:05] <fsphil> the raw data is available if you run a detector and upload something
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[14:54] <eroomde> http://capybarasthatlooklikerafaelnadal.tumblr.com/
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[15:12] <Gadget-Mac> fsphil: Do you run a blitzortung detector ?
[15:16] <fsphil> Gadget-Mac: I have one but not got it online yet
[15:16] <Gadget-Mac> Be interested to hear how you get on.
[15:17] <Gadget-Mac> I've wondered about an open source version with a Pi to handle the web comms
[15:17] <fsphil> should be possible
[15:17] <Gadget-Mac> Yup, probably got all the right people here ;)
[15:17] <fsphil> the timing needs to be excellent
[15:18] <Gadget-Mac> ublox should cover that off nicely
[15:18] <Gadget-Mac> Would still need a uP
[15:18] <fsphil> yea
[15:19] <fsphil> though a two channel ADC could be used
[15:19] <fsphil> one channel the VLF audio, the other the gps time pulse
[15:19] <fsphil> well three channels, the VLF receiver they have uses two channels
[15:21] <Gadget-Mac> Indeed.
[15:22] <Gadget-Mac> Wonder how much uptake it would get
[15:23] <fsphil> it would probably be a good bit cheaper than the current detector they use
[15:23] <fsphil> the Pi, a small circuit for detection and a ublox
[15:23] <fsphil> heck the ublox can be on that circuit
[15:24] <fsphil> not sure how the VLF receiver would handle being on the same board as that
[15:24] <Gadget-Mac> I'd probably keep it split tbh.
[15:24] <fsphil> comes as two boards now, connected via cat5
[15:24] <fsphil> I still get a lot of noise
[15:25] <fsphil> there's a really loud signal at 15khz I never managed to track down
[15:27] <Gadget-Mac> With our resident AMP & RF experts I'm sure we could do better
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[15:33] <cuddykid> hydrogen people - fairly urgent question - just seen that a "key" is needed to open the valve of H2 cylinder..
[15:33] <cuddykid> is this something you have to get from BOC or can you just use pliers or whatnot?
[15:34] <cuddykid> ping daveake ^
[15:36] <daveake> You need a "cylinder key"
[15:36] <daveake> Any place that sells welding kit will have loads
[15:37] Nick change: stilldavid_ -> stilldavid
[15:37] <daveake> And yes we did use pliers first time :p
[15:37] <cuddykid> damn, I'll call the local boc agent now, hope they're not clsed
[15:37] <number10> take care cuddykid - remember no nylon underpants
[15:38] <cuddykid> if not, I'll hack it with pliers :P
[15:41] <HixWork> anyone on here any good with Javascript dev and looking for some freelance work in Scotland for a few weeks?
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> Just drill a small hole in the side of the cylinder.
[15:50] <Babs> Bonjour
[15:51] <Babs> I didn't tell you about the most interesting part of ordering my guidan...I mean positional board thing from the US
[15:51] <Babs> Email from Sparkfun: "Dear Mr Babington, Do you intend to sell or send this item to anyone in any of the following countries: Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, or Syria? Please let me know at your earliest convenience, and thank you for your help."
[15:52] <craag> lol
[15:52] <russss> sparkfun ballistic missile
[15:52] <russss> (Hi NSA!)
[15:53] <mfa298> it's even more fun when you have to sign such disclaimers for software upgrades for Wireless Access Points.
[15:54] <Babs> I felt like emailing the Egyptian Prime Minister with "Don't worry, you aren't on their target list for the moment, but when I cock up the soldering and need to order another one I will let you know whether anything has changed"
[15:55] <Brace> lol
[15:55] <Brace> nice
[15:58] <HixWork> Babs, found a board with the same 3 sensors on it earlier. I won't link to it in case you get upset and progrtam a ballistic to come my way
[15:59] <eroomde> mfa298: encryption is a protected technology
[15:59] <eroomde> can't export atmegas which have aes engines in them either
[16:00] <Babs> hixwork - to be fair, if I aimed it at you, given my woeful programming skills it would be more costyn or arko that should be worried
[16:00] <HixWork> heh, at least it would be stable ;p
[16:02] <Babs> was it cheaper? that board I purchased was more expensive than any other which I didn't really understand but with my mastercard ready and a thousand yard stare at 1am in the morning from trying to work out the differences, there was only going to be one result
[16:02] <mfa298> eroomde: I know, although it's always fun having to sign those agreements. I think some manufacturers go that extra mile to be annoying. (I think there were around 5 tick boxes to say you wern't going to pass the software onto a bad country)
[16:03] <HixWork> Babs approx 1.5th, no onboard AVR but all 3 of the sensors quoted on there
[16:03] <Babs> as in 20%, or 150%?
[16:04] <HixWork> 20
[16:04] <Babs> is an AVR an atmega chip?
[16:04] <HixWork> yeah
[16:04] <Babs> I am hilariously ignorant n'est pas
[16:04] <zyp> atmega is a family of AVRs
[16:04] <zyp> there are also attiny AVRs
[16:04] <Babs> as i have just bought a seocnd arduino for £24.99, I conclude that I have overpaid for the board.
[16:05] <Babs> However, i can get it to do this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuHRCnpcsDQ
[16:06] <Babs> waggling a board around and seeing it replicated on my laptop is priceless
[16:06] <HixWork> true true you can not put a price on things like that
[16:06] <HixWork> http://goo.gl/xiKE8
[16:06] <HixWork> thats it, in case you want to compare it
[16:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> Babs what sort of resolution and accuracy does the board give ?
[16:08] <Babs> I just got two futaba servos delivered as well which (assuming I can get the easy transfer working) should mean that a stable platform for a camera should be doable
[16:09] <Babs> at which point it should be simple to get a GPS location on the board to generate a bearing to a pre determined location on the ground, and then do a further servo transformation of the platform to make the camera point at the location on the ground
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[16:09] <Babs> Babs' mantra "It's all about the theory"
[16:09] <Babs> Geoff-G8DHE - don't know. I need to calibrate it and then it will be interesting to establish drift over time.
[16:10] <eroomde> you can cencel out the drift in pointing with magnetics
[16:10] <Babs> I heard estimations on here on weds of 1/2 degree an hour, but that depends on how sophisticated the filter is
[16:10] <eroomde> which is nice
[16:10] <Babs> eroomde - do you do mind melds?
[16:11] <eroomde> for a very favourable rate
[16:12] <Babs> I'm not sure I can offer in much of electronic wizardry, but I have seen some entertaining stuff in some less salubrious london establishments
[16:12] <eroomde> of which there are a few
[16:12] <HixWork> heh
[16:12] <Babs> eroomde - it has a magnometer too
[16:12] <HixWork> the Griffin in Clerkenwell, such a choice establishment
[16:13] <eroomde> Babs: then in theory you can cancel out all your integration drift
[16:13] <eroomde> and in practice too infact
[16:13] <Babs> I presume the general theory is "use the accelerometer and gyro to generate the orientation data the majority of the time, and then periodically check it against a compass" ?
[16:13] <eroomde> you just need a simple kalman filter and job's a good'n
[16:13] <Babs> hixwork - that place is disgusting
[16:13] <HixWork> "simple"
[16:14] <eroomde> well, you could do it that way but it's a bit heuristic
[16:14] <Babs> apparently
[16:14] <HixWork> Babs - so I;ve heard
[16:14] <eroomde> compared to a kalman filter which is mathematically neat and provably the optimal way of doing it (assuming certain assumptions)
[16:14] <Babs> eroomde has his thesaurus open this afternoon
[16:14] <eroomde> i was being polite
[16:15] <Babs> heuristic = work it out Babs
[16:15] <Babs> I'm going to use that one in meetings
[16:16] <eroomde> the kalman filter says 'this gyro measures truth + offset + noise'
[16:16] <eroomde> and therefore when you integrate it the offset accululates
[16:16] <Babs> My current favourite one is "Let me see whether I can help you to understand this"
[16:16] <eroomde> but you track and estimate the ossfet in your kalman filter
[16:16] <eroomde> and subtract it
[16:16] <eroomde> and you track it by comparing the gyro output with a magnetometer or accelerometer
[16:16] <eroomde> dpedning on wuether it's roll, pitch or yaw
[16:17] <eroomde> in shorthand, you track the sensor biases in the state vector aswell as all the usual stuff like attitude
[16:17] <eroomde> it sounds much more complicated in ascii than it actually is
[16:17] <Babs> *eroomde makes his case for being nav expert on Eclipse 2017*
[16:17] <Babs> and wins
[16:18] <Babs> "You had me at accululate"
[16:18] <eroomde> we can fly our combined gps/ins
[16:18] <eroomde> i'm good at typing
[16:18] <Babs> cool. i'm in.
[16:19] <eroomde> it will be gravy
[16:19] <HixWork> bisto damping
[16:20] <eroomde> knorr way
[16:20] <Babs> that will require beefing up my coding skills
[16:20] <HixWork> thought you had a bachelors
[16:20] <Babs> *pauses*
[16:20] <cuddykid> managed to get a cylinder key :D got there just as they were closing
[16:20] <Babs> I think we need a cowman filter
[16:21] <eroomde> should have paused a bit longer
[16:21] <eroomde> we presented kalman with a t-shirt when he gave a seminar to our group
[16:21] <eroomde> keep kalman carry on
[16:21] <eroomde> he didn;t really get it
[16:21] <eroomde> he seemed a bit asperatron
[16:22] <eroomde> aspergatron*
[16:22] <Babs> are you going to do your talk on kalman at the conference eroomde?
[16:22] <eroomde> and a bit of a mathomo generally (no offence babs)
[16:22] <eroomde> mathmo*
[16:22] <cuddykid> had to chase up DM, he forgot about my request :P
[16:22] <eroomde> that might be a bit OT
[16:22] <eroomde> there was talk of a crash course in gps
[16:23] <Babs> None taken. If you had spoken to my tutor at college he wouldn't have really described me as a mathematician either
[16:23] <eroomde> they can be relied upon
[16:24] <Babs> Once I get the servos etc. hooked up and the coding working it would be interesting to sit down and work out how the filters can be improved.
[16:24] <eroomde> i remember thinking 'oh christ this is going to be a long 4 years' when our first supervision ever (tutorial) was with some chinese supervisor who said something like 'ok so welcome. if no get first then you no point be here, rearry'
[16:25] <eroomde> yes, once the hardware is built up and shaken down you can move quite fast
[16:25] <eroomde> my advice would be to instrument things well
[16:25] <eroomde> make it easy to log everything to a pc
[16:25] <eroomde> and plot graphs
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> Remotely, in case it explodes.
[16:26] <eroomde> servos tend not to
[16:26] <eroomde> lipo's tho
[16:26] <HixWork> weekend time - back later
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[16:26] <Babs> what does instrument things well mean? ie track all the variables and send them to notepad/spreadsheet?
[16:26] <eroomde> it is really isn;t it
[16:26] <eroomde> yes
[16:27] <eroomde> by instrument be able to measure lots of things
[16:27] <eroomde> be it with existing hardware or with specific test instrumentaion
[16:30] <eroomde> in this case i guess it'll be commanded service positions and gyro outputs and so on
[16:30] <eroomde> but you might want to make a test rig where you angle the inertial measurement unit on a table whose angle is measured by a potentiometer
[16:30] <Babs> cuddykid, are you launching with h2 tomorrow?
[16:30] <eroomde> so you can rocket the table on a pivot and get 'actual' angle from that potentiometer
[16:30] <eroomde> and comapre that to what the filter is outputting
[16:31] <Babs> eroomde - exactly. I need to make a rig though that I can take down rapidly to make it look as if it is something weddingy for the fiance
[16:32] <Babs> Like a Transformer Robot in Disguise, only this changes from a testing rig to an order of service/flower arrangement
[16:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> Borrow daveake wedding dress ?
[16:32] <eroomde> you'll just get her hopes up
[16:33] <cuddykid> Babs: sunday
[16:33] <Babs> But I agree. First step is to get the code working and get a horizontal stable table. The next is to more accurately measure the angle of the change, drift over time etc.
[16:33] <cuddykid> permission just arrived
[16:33] <Babs> is that first hydrogen launch?
[16:33] <cuddykid> payload hasn't been built yet
[16:33] <cuddykid> Babs: yep
[16:33] <cuddykid> got 2 cylinders as I've got a few more hopefully coming up soon
[16:34] <Babs> I'm sure it will go fine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_DfKVTjzA
[16:34] <cuddykid> haha
[16:35] <Babs> Man, I bet you were about 3 years old when that happened
[16:35] <cuddykid> 1
[16:35] <cuddykid> or 2
[16:35] <daveake> cuddykid Watch out for BOC and their random ways of charging for cylinder rental
[16:35] <eroomde> 7
[16:35] <eroomde> but i wasn't ito F1 then
[16:35] <daveake> This week their system suddenly decided to switch me to yearly rental on 2 cylinders
[16:35] <cuddykid> daveake: yeah, there are so many charges
[16:35] <cuddykid> oh
[16:36] <eroomde> we just got refunded £490 from air products
[16:36] <cuddykid> odd
[16:36] <Babs> I was in uni :-(
[16:36] <eroomde> because they overcharged us for rental
[16:36] <daveake> So I got an invoice £200 higher than it should have been
[16:36] <eroomde> that's basically christmas lunch at St John covered
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[16:36] <cuddykid> there are so many charges, climate charges, rental charges, delivery charges, cylinder charges..
[16:36] <cuddykid> ridiculous
[16:36] <daveake> Yeah their motto seems to be "charge as much as poss refund later"
[16:37] <Babs> cuddykid - i reckon 1994 was probably the last time I could have outcoded you then
[16:37] <cuddykid> I'll keep an eye on the invoice - thanks for heads up
[16:37] <daveake> Another top tip - if you order more than x cylinders in y months (sorry dunoo the actual numbers) it triggers BOC to *tell* their depot to stock H2 for you
[16:37] <cuddykid> lol
[16:37] <cuddykid> crazy!
[16:37] <cuddykid> I got it delivered this time
[16:37] <Babs> "CuddyDad, this thing won't compile" http://andrewjwildey.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/safariscreensnapz002.jpg
[16:37] <daveake> So then you can just stroll up and get some without notice
[16:38] <cuddykid> apparently, as my local BOC place is an agent rather than a depot, it would take between 6-7 weeks for it to arrive..
[16:38] <daveake> !!
[16:38] <eroomde> that's mad
[16:38] <cuddykid> I go, I need it tomorrow
[16:38] <cuddykid> ha
[16:38] <daveake> I like to go to the depot
[16:38] <cuddykid> yep, apparently, BOC don't tell them when it will be delivered, last time they waited months
[16:38] <daveake> I like the abuse I get :p
[16:39] <daveake> (he likes to take the piss)
[16:39] <cuddykid> my local is a very manly place shall we say - metal works place
[16:39] <daveake> Or it's "Sorry the cylinder didn't arrive"
[16:39] <daveake> "BUt it's that big red one over there"
[16:39] <eroomde> our boc man was keen to encourage us fragile students
[16:39] <eroomde> he'd always foist safety equipment on us for free
[16:40] <cuddykid> nice
[16:40] <eroomde> the simultaneous coolest and least cool things were safety glasses with little torches on either side
[16:40] <eroomde> simultaneously*
[16:40] <cuddykid> odd.. DM sent notam paperwork through but not showing on map
[16:40] <eroomde> might just be for tomorrow morning
[16:40] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid i think notaminfo only updates its database every few hours
[16:40] <cuddykid> I've set it to the week ahead
[16:41] <cuddykid> maybe he'll do it later
[16:41] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: good point, that will be it
[16:41] <chrisstubbs> so if it was recent may take a few hours to appear
[16:41] <cuddykid> yep
[16:41] <chrisstubbs> I have over 900 screenshots of sdr#, how can i get the frequency of the peak into excel of each without doing it all by hand :P
[16:42] <eroomde> by not using screenshots?
[16:42] <nick_> By not using excel!
[16:42] <chrisstubbs> would have been nice but didnt have any other solutions
[16:42] <chrisstubbs> lol
[16:43] <nick_> Only evil people like bankers use excel.
[16:43] <chrisstubbs> I may convert the lot into a video then overlay the excel data over it in dashware
[16:43] <Babs> chrisstubbs - mechanical turk is really useful for stuff like that
[16:43] <Babs> I use excel all of the time
[16:43] <chrisstubbs> babs lol how much money is that going to cost? :P
[16:44] <eroomde> linux
[16:44] <eroomde> is the answer to all of these questions usually
[16:44] <eroomde> where you want some automation
[16:44] <chrisstubbs> could have rewritten sdr# to find the peak and save the value of it
[16:44] <Babs> chrsstubbs - thats the cool thing, you just name your price and see whether there are any takers
[16:44] <chrisstubbs> probably not worth it for a 2.5 hour test :P
[16:45] <Babs> it is an excellent way of doing lots of small manual tasks
[16:45] <Babs> for you, 1p to do each record is probably not worth it
[16:46] <Babs> but for someone in india it works well economically
[16:46] <craag> chrisstubbs: You can record the output of sdr# you know?
[16:47] <craag> The full RF BW as well as the demodulated BW.
[16:47] <chrisstubbs> just found a plugin that does auto frequency tuning, that could have been helpful lol
[16:47] <chrisstubbs> i knew about recording the audio output
[16:47] <craag> The new dev version can record the full RF spectrum too I believe.
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTJ7AzBIJoI
[16:48] <chrisstubbs> Ah cool, well I plan on doing some more tests next week so will look into the options a bit more this time. I only had one night to put the whole test together
[16:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/index.php?ind=1
[16:51] <craag> chrisstubbs: In the recording panel at the bottom left, select 'Baseband' iirc.
[16:52] <craag> I'm in linux here so can't check atm.
[16:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> See the image above
[16:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> You can do the same in SDR-Radio
[16:53] <craag> Yeah that's the one, Geoff's image.
[16:53] <mfa298> craag: that sounds about right, I think that feature has been there for a little while
[16:53] <chrisstubbs> Ah! never noticed that one before
[16:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> SDR-Radio gives some useful additons as well!
[16:53] <craag> It's v useful for overnight test runs :)
[16:54] <craag> Geoff-G8DHE: I tried it, but it's way over-complex for what I want really.
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[16:55] <craag> The only feature missing in SDR# for me is being able to adjust the lower end of the ssb audio filter.
[16:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> After using for a flight or two I wouldn't switch back, mainly for the mutiple channels, taks a while to get used to it and the documentation is the usual poor but so many neat features when you play!
[16:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Again SDR-RAdio lets you adjust both upper and lower edhes of the filter without changing the centre freq.
[16:58] <craag> The main issue I have isn't a fault with the software, but myself only having a 15inch screen on the netbook tbh.
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[16:58] <craag> sdr# is nicely minimal on the interface :)
[16:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes that can be a pain I do agree, in the van with only a Laptop i'm stuck for screen realestate :-(
[16:59] <mfa298> sdr-radio does seem to need a bigger screen and a bit more cpu but good for multiple payloads (at least if they're within the 192Khz of the FCD Pro+)
[16:59] <Geoff-G8DHE> you can close many of the panes in SDR-Radio just leave the VFO's themselves if you want
[17:00] <mfa298> I've found re-arranging the panes helps to have a smaller useful window as well - especially if you don't need all the vfos
[17:01] <Geoff-G8DHE> See Capture3 and Capture4 above
[17:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> Right had the call foe food bbl
[17:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> Just use the Custom save/restore othwerwise it takes a while to get them all back in position later! BBL
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[17:17] <steve_____> Hi All
[17:17] <steve_____> Does anyone have a frequency for B-1
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[17:18] <mfa298> steve_____: that was a flight yesterday (unless they flew again today and I didn't notice)
[17:18] <steve_____> :(
[17:18] <mfa298> lots of flights planned for tomorrow though
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[17:18] <steve_____> you are correct - I can't read ...
[17:19] <steve_____> right well the plan was to tune in and then go eat dinner
[17:19] <steve_____> so...
[17:20] <steve_____> I shall eat dinner
[17:20] <steve_____> laters
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[17:30] -:#highaltitude- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
[17:34] <ibanezmatt13> it's strange how often the number of lost packets is half the number of received packets.
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[17:44] <HixPad> Babs: I don't see any reason you couldn't link a radio and gps and use that board as flight computer
[17:44] <HixPad> Subject to code space
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[17:48] <ibanezmatt13> do you have to use a checksum for SSDV?
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[18:09] <fsphil> it's built in ibanezmatt13
[18:09] <fsphil> why are you working on this fine day?
[18:10] <fsphil> it's not a day for payloads or raspberry pi :)
[18:10] <ibanezmatt13> I've been out all day busking with some friends in a town since 09:00 til just before. Plus, I'm doing all this outside with a glass of lemonade :)
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[18:11] <fsphil> I endorse this method
[18:11] <ibanezmatt13> got a beautiful pic of the sky tonight on ssdv.habhub.org. Shame half of it's missing
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[18:12] <fsphil> hmm, clouds
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> I don't know why I like it so much, I think those clouds make it look great.
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> Good practice anyway :)
[18:13] Lunar_Lander (~gd-compto@p5488BE94.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[18:13] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:13] <ibanezmatt13> Hi Lunar_Lander :)
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[18:14] <Lunar_Lander> hi
[18:14] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
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[18:14] <daveake> You realise I trademarked the "PIE" name for payloads? :p
[18:14] <daveake> ^^ lie
[18:14] <ibanezmatt13> haha :) Hi Dave, sorry about that. Just went for the simplest option
[18:14] <fsphil> the pie is a lie?
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[18:15] <daveake> Payloads could be named after your last meal
[18:15] <Lunar_Lander> so, FISH?
[18:15] <Lunar_Lander> or ROLL?
[18:15] <daveake> Which in a few minutes will be $LASAGNE
[18:16] <ibanezmatt13> OMMLETTE
[18:16] <fsphil> wouldn't that mean most would be $$BACON?
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> COCONUT_CREAME
[18:16] <ibanezmatt13> Could call it CHIPS1
[18:17] <ibanezmatt13> Quite appropriate would be MARSBAR1
[18:17] <fsphil> the ssdv callsign is limited to 6 characters
[18:17] <ibanezmatt13> oh right, CHIPS1 it is :)
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander> I still need a good, catchy name for my project
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> Helios already has been used by a space probe program
[18:18] <fsphil> DASHAB
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[18:18] <fsphil> probably used the wrong word there
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> I always think of like people
[18:18] <fsphil> swift was the only good name I came up with
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> like Onnes, who invented helium liquefication
[18:19] <fsphil> though I quite like storm, it never really lived up to its name
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> but again, only Superconductor people probably know who Onnes is
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> and Zephyr has been used too often for other things I think
[18:19] <ibanezmatt13> To be Onnes, you're probably better sticking with food :)
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:19] <fsphil> superconductor, is when superman conducts an orchestra
[18:20] <Hiena> Augh...
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander> like Geiger Counter counting the violin players
[18:20] <fsphil> the string theory section
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[18:22] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil, look at the horror of not using functions... https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5694404
[18:22] <fsphil> I'm horrified
[18:22] <ibanezmatt13> you should be
[18:23] <ibanezmatt13> I am too
[18:23] <daveake> My geiger counter failed to count any violin players. Then I noticed that there was no conductor.
[18:23] <ibanezmatt13> It just seems to be flaming impossible to get it to work with functions, no matter how much I try
[18:24] <Hiena> ibanezmatt13: Nice. Guess you gain a several ms on the jumps... ;)
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[18:25] <ibanezmatt13> jumps? :)
[18:25] <fsphil> conductors are better when live
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[18:26] <eroomde> $KETTLECHIPS
[18:26] <fsphil> there is a very small overhead to functions
[18:26] <Lunar_Lander> lol
[18:26] <Lunar_Lander> hi GW8RAK
[18:26] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: at the bottom of the code,why do you open the serial, send a string, close it and then do the same thing again ?
[18:26] <fsphil> tip: don't rub eyes while wearing suncream
[18:27] <ibanezmatt13> err, copying and pasting :) I'll change it to flush()
[18:27] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil, good tip
[18:28] <mfa298> for doing funtions the best thing is probably try creating one function and move some code into it. Don't try to do the whole lot in one
[18:28] <GW8RAK> Hi Lunar_Lander
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[18:29] <ibanezmatt13> mfa298, I'll try and start to get functions working tomorrow, otherwise I'll probably jump out of my window :)
[18:29] <fsphil> I would maybe write a little function that returns only GPGGA strings from the GPS, or times out after a while
[18:29] <fsphil> be a nice easy way to start
[18:29] <daveake> +1
[18:30] <mfa298> the other simple function to write might be one to send a string to the ntx2
[18:30] <ibanezmatt13> I'm just gonna note this down. So I need a function to read GPS. Should I have two different functions for sending packets and telemetry to the NTX2, or just one?
[18:30] <Hiena> Well, the function calls usually requires several memory operations and jumps, which takes time. In the tightly timed codes, you could avoid that overhead simply not using them. And this is quite funny, due you use python...
[18:30] <fsphil> same one would do
[18:30] <fsphil> the ssdv packets are just strings to python
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[18:31] <ibanezmatt13> ok, Hiena, yes Python
[18:31] <fsphil> howdy LeoBodnar
[18:32] <mfa298> the key to functions is that they make the code re-useable. If you look at what you do to send a telemetry string and a ssdv packet you're doing exactly the same (just different data)
[18:32] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I'll have a go at that tomorrow :) Thanks
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[18:33] <mfa298> Hiena: although for a small function the compiler (at least for C code) will optimise out the function call, but it does make the code more readable - which is often worthwhile.
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[18:36] <LeoBodnar> evening all! just settling in after day's work :)
[18:36] <eroomde> mine aussi
[18:36] <eroomde> plans cancelled
[18:36] <eroomde> which i actually don;t object to in the least
[18:36] <eroomde> quite up for pizza and 37 episodes of some tv show
[18:36] <LeoBodnar> what is the smallest photo camera that can talk SPI or parallel bus?
[18:38] <LeoBodnar> i.e. bare image sensor would do but it probably needs tight timing and variety of voltages from my memory
[18:38] <eroomde> the tiny jpeg cameras that people like sparkfun sell are usable
[18:38] <eroomde> i think phil has both used them and knows a lot about them
[18:38] <fsphil> they're alllright, but expensive
[18:38] <fsphil> they're both uart
[18:39] <fsphil> there's also this, but I've not seen anywhere local selling them: http://www.electronics123.com/s.nl/it.A/id.3011/.f
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: can you deal with cameras that must be read out in 1/60th of a second?
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> or so
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> lots of older parallel mobile cameras do this
[18:40] <fsphil> yea you could also use a cmos sensor directly, they just dump parallel video data
[18:40] <fsphil> usually the settings controlled via spi
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[18:40] <fsphil> if you've got dma and enough memory that would work
[18:41] <Lunar_Lander> hi OZ1SKY_Brian
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> more normal cameras'tend to be more annoying and require more stuff to drive
[18:41] <LeoBodnar> Yes, but I want to keep the mcu side lean and tight dsPIC33 is max I want to use
[18:41] <fsphil> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10061
[18:41] <LeoBodnar> dsPIC33 can do DMA sampling off parallel port
[18:41] <fsphil> I've not flown one of these yet
[18:42] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi Lunar_Lander
[18:42] <fsphil> the one I've used has been discontinued, http://proto-pic.co.uk/ucam-ttl-by-4d-systems/
[18:42] <fsphil> and where stupid prices
[18:43] <cuddykid> split superglue on my finger
[18:44] <LeoBodnar> thanks, I will have a look. I am not afraid of using direct CCD imagers but it's difficult to get them at single qtys for prototyping
[18:44] <cuddykid> now it's gone white lol
[18:44] <fsphil> yes
[18:44] <cuddykid> any tips on how to get set superglue of skin?!
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: naah, easy
[18:44] <LeoBodnar> Good job you are not stuck to the keyboardddddd
[18:44] <fsphil> you'd also need to do any jpeg compression yourself if you didn't want to store it raw
[18:44] <fsphil> cuddykid: nail varnish remover
[18:45] <cuddykid> oh yes
[18:45] <cuddykid> wonder if we have any
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: Simple parallel imagers, and CCDs have basically the same constraints.
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> You need to read all the image out in one 'shutter time'
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> What amount of RAM do you have in the processor?
[18:46] <fsphil> what about some kind of fifo frame buffer?
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> Fifos tend to be as expensive as micros that can handle it :)
[18:47] <fsphil> ah
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> the RAM could be 80 GB in size
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:47] <fsphil> I got a 1MB SRAM chip to have a play with
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: yeah - but then you need a counter.
[18:47] <fsphil> sorry, 1Mbit
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> And it all gets bloody annoying
[18:48] <LeoBodnar> I can use external 16 bit SRAM, I had this done before. From memory around 64MBytes or more if banked.
[18:49] <fsphil> nice
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: Can you deal with 6 megabytes/second or so of image data coming in?
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> If you can, older small mobile parallell cameras will work
[18:50] <ibanezmatt13> As for powering the components, the Pi is of course powered from the batteries at 5v, so for the NTX2 and GPS, would the NTX2 be powered from the batteries regulated 5v, and the GPS off the Pi's 3.3v?
[18:50] <LeoBodnar> Yes, via parallel port DMA reads.
[18:51] <fsphil> the ntx2 has its own regulator
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[18:51] <fsphil> you could power that from the battery
[18:51] <ibanezmatt13> So say 9V would be fine for NTX2?
[18:51] <fsphil> I'd be wary about powering things from the Pi
[18:51] <fsphil> that might be a bit much
[18:51] <fsphil> check the datasheet
[18:52] <ibanezmatt13> I don't think the GPS has a regulator, in which case, wouldn't it have to be powered off Pi?
[18:52] <fsphil> the Pi 3v3 regulator is not great
[18:52] <fsphil> you could use a separate one
[18:52] <ibanezmatt13> could I parrallel two regs from the batteries?
[18:52] <ibanezmatt13> a 5v and a 3.3v
[18:53] <fsphil> yup. but 9v to 3.3v will get quite toasty
[18:53] <fsphil> well depends on current use
[18:53] <LeoBodnar> I have used these http://uk.farnell.com/renesas/r1lv1616rsa-5si-b0/sram-16mbit-3v-55ns-48tsop/dp/2068168 16Mbit ones but they are quite pricey
[18:53] <ibanezmatt13> I think I'll use two regulators then to be safe, they don't weigh much. So the Pi won't power anything then, only the Pi Cam?
[18:54] <daveake_> Run the NTX2 from the 5V line
[18:54] <daveake_> Run the GPS from the Pi 3.3V line
[18:54] <daveake_> You'll be fine
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[18:55] <daveake_> Looks like he shorted it out
[18:55] <fsphil> the default pi 3.3v reg is fine?
[18:55] <fsphil> well, fine enough?
[18:55] <daveake_> the latter :)
[18:56] <LeoBodnar> Why parallel bus? How about raw CCD imagers that output analogue signal? Is it too vintage these days? I haven't looked at imaging sensors for about 15 years lol
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[18:56] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/OVM7690-R20A/884-1019-1-ND/2123272
[18:56] <daveake_> Best bet is to replace the 3.3V reg altogether, but not sure I should recommend he tries that
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> CCD imagers are not available in small packages in general.
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> That camera isn't the smallest available - it's about a 2.5mm cube
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> but it's fairly close
[18:59] <LeoBodnar> This is just completely random pick from Sony line
[19:00] <SpeedEvil> Hah. I thought initially this was a $1.80 imager - 160*120
[19:00] <SpeedEvil> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/EKL3104/255-3037-ND/2442808
[19:00] <LeoBodnar> http://www.1stvision.com/cameras/sensor_specs/icx687ala_aqa.pdf this one
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> Why did you say small - that's huge?
[19:01] <LeoBodnar> Thanks SpeedEvil, I did not know they are making these!
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[19:02] <LeoBodnar> My sense of scale was calibrated in 90's :)
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> More sanely - what are you trying to make.
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> And what to take pictures of.
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> The above phone cam will be poor fro anything other than reasonably lit scenes.
[19:04] <LeoBodnar> Just have a few pinhole type cameras on a tiny payload. 40-50 grammes in total.
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> daveake_, did you read my comment about the atmega executing code one time and refusing the other?
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[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> that was yesterday
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[19:06] <eroomde> it will be in his printed records somewhere
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> lol
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> anyways, got that today as well, uploaded a blink sketch and then the former code again and it ran
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> I doubt an atmega can lock up from previous code?
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> as the programming cycle erases the memory
[19:07] <LeoBodnar> OVM7690 datasheet is missing. Is it one of those where you sign NDA first?
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yes - there are documents out there
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> For at least some similar parts
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: I'd be looking for something similar, and then a micro with enough RAM to buffer a frame, before throwing it onto SD.
[19:11] <SpeedEvil> Six chip selects, and you're done.
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[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> can you exceed the max. writing speed of an SD with a micro or is there no need to worry?
[19:12] <LeoBodnar> do you have a link to OVM7690 data or was it just an example of product type?
[19:12] <eroomde> you can
[19:13] <eroomde> i think the limit with the spi interface is a few kb/s
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander> because I was looking to make the GPS a bit speedier, with the current EURUS based code you need at least 4 seconds between lines
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander> I thought about trying TinyGPS and using the NMEA
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: It was an example
[19:16] <fsphil> are there microcontrollers with megabyte memories?
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[19:17] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: Not really - though looking on digikey, I found lots of stm* with 192K, and some freescale parts with 640K/1M
[19:17] <LeoBodnar> PIC24FJ256DA106 has 256K on board and external 16 bit bus for SRAM
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/STM32F407IGH6/497-11765-ND/2754209 - 192K
[19:18] <fsphil> the biggest xmega chip has 32kbytesw
[19:18] <fsphil> -w
[19:18] <LeoBodnar> Sorry, 96KB RAM!
[19:19] <LeoBodnar> I usually use it with external RAM
[19:19] <fsphil> the xmega can use external ram too I think
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/R5S72625W144FP%23U0/R5S72625W144FP%23U0-ND/2299776
[19:19] <eroomde> it can
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> I guess has 1M
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> Huge chip is huge
[19:20] <fsphil> well I suppose any IC can use external ram through the gpio pins
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: I had a design to do that, that was quite neat.
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> Using a sdram and a camera like the above.
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[19:21] <SpeedEvil> You setup the address, and enable the right lines, then just strobe the clock 4096 times to read into a DRAM page.
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> Then just reset the address, and repeat
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> Go over the captured image 16 lines at a time later, to crunch to jpeg
[19:22] <kt5tk-m> ping Upu
[19:22] <fsphil> nice
[19:22] <SpeedEvil> Especially fun as you can do it with stupidly low pin numbers, because the camera and ram share the bus
[19:22] <fsphil> you'd have to re-read some parts of the image for that?
[19:22] <Upu> hey KT5TK
[19:22] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: yes
[19:23] <kt5tk-m> We'll launch KT5TK-4 in 2 hours
[19:23] <Upu> oh ok I'll get you on the map
[19:23] <kt5tk-m> Thanks
[19:23] <fsphil> oooh you read widthx16 each time SpeedEvil?
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[19:23] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: Or whatever the width of the RAM/camera is
[19:24] <fsphil> makes sense
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> I meant that you need to process 16 lines in a buffer for the chrominance of JPEG later
[19:24] <fsphil> yep, unless you did a jpeg without subsampling
[19:24] <fsphil> would just need 8 lines
[19:25] <Upu> ok you're up KT5TK
[19:25] <kt5tk-m> Thanks
[19:26] <LeoBodnar> I wish these had any documentation http://www.aliexpress.com/item/For-iphone-4g-front-camera-with-flex-by-free-shipping-100-original-5pcs-lot/500879164.html they are OVT I think
[19:28] <SpeedEvil> For this sort of stuff, you tend to need to google around and find people trying stuff
[19:28] <SpeedEvil> Reading chinese can be a help :/
[19:29] <fsphil> I'm amazed the chinese can read chinese
[19:30] <Upu> ping tiouk_com
[19:30] <Upu> who is TITAN-ONE ?
[19:32] <eroomde> a 2-stage ICBM at the end of the 50s
[19:33] <Upu> yeees
[19:33] <Upu> not that one :)
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[19:34] <eroomde> a large mexican
[19:34] <eroomde> (titan-juan)
[19:34] <daveake_> yes I got that :)
[19:34] <fsphil> what came before TITAN-TWO
[19:34] <eroomde> you would
[19:34] <Upu> thanks I was just saying that back to myself at a variety of speeds to try work it out
[19:36] <LeoBodnar> Are TITAN guys the same who launched BACONs last weekend?
[19:36] <fsphil> mmmm
[19:36] <fsphil> I have to admit to being confused by who's launching what recently
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> Surely Gaea would be the first of the titans?
[19:37] <LeoBodnar> That was stuck in pedestrian nav mode and fell into water?
[19:38] <fsphil> balcon
[19:38] <fsphil> I kept thinking it was bacon too
[19:38] <LeoBodnar> yes BALCON
[19:38] <fsphil> not sure
[19:38] <eroomde> who flew bacon?
[19:38] <LeoBodnar> BALCON-1 and BALCON-1A
[19:39] <mfa298> That was Jess and someone else wasn't it ?
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[19:41] <Upu> so anyone else other than Radim and number10 launching tomorrow ?
[19:41] <Upu> cuddykid ?
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[19:42] <Upu> ping tiouk_com if you could switch to offline whilst we have a live flight on I'd appreciate it
[19:42] <cuddykid> hi Upu - I'm launching sunday
[19:42] <Upu> ok ta
[19:43] <cuddykid> around midday
[19:43] <cuddykid> 434.3 probs
[19:44] <eroomde> all of it
[19:44] <LeoBodnar> I remember spacenear.us/tracker had a list at left top corner that showed tx frequencies for active flights. How do listeners find TX details otherwise?
[19:44] <eroomde> the mailing list
[19:44] <eroomde> or here
[19:44] <Upu> mailing list generally
[19:44] <Upu> the box is entirely reliant on someone doing it
[19:45] <jonsowman> the calendar has details too
[19:45] <LeoBodnar> OK, I thought it was useful to have it.
[19:45] <jonsowman> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62498867/Screenshot%20from%202013-06-07%2020%3A45%3A14.png
[19:45] <eroomde> or you can launch something then come on here and say
[19:45] <Upu> lol
[19:46] <eroomde> 'OH MY GOD I JUST LAUNCHED A BALLOON! YOLO WHAT'S A NOTAM?'
[19:46] <Upu> lol
[19:46] <HixPad> Anyone seen this http://m.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jun/07/uk-gathering-secret-intelligence-nsa-prism ?
[19:46] <jonsowman> never would I have thought I would hear "yolo" from you eroomde
[19:46] <Upu> no for the record Ed I banned WILLdude from using it
[19:46] <eroomde> i was in character
[19:46] <Upu> on channel
[19:46] <jonsowman> :)
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[19:54] <fsphil> you only launch once
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[19:58] <Jess--> Titan-One is mine (not my choice of name)
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[19:58] <Jess--> Lessons have certainly bean learnt from the Balcan Launch
[19:58] <eroomde> i prefered the large mexican
[19:59] <Jess--> planning to launch on Sunday from thorpe camp in lincs
[19:59] <Upu> fixed the issues ?
[20:00] <Jess--> shift / Delete seems to have fixed the code
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[20:01] <Jess--> new tracker is based (very closely) on Craag2
[20:02] <eroomde> why do all royal correspondants speak with the same stupid voice?
[20:02] <Jess--> main changes are lower frequency / baud rate
[20:02] <craag> Jess--: :)
[20:02] <Jess--> Hi Craag
[20:03] <craag> Hi, good to hear it's useful.
[20:04] <craag> Of course it's pretty much just wiki / j_coxon's / u_pu's code put together :-P
[20:05] <craag> Just make sure you get the right pin for the RFM22 SDN if you're using that..
[20:05] <Jess--> it's certainly useful. titan one will be flying with very little changed, two will be flying with additional temp / pressure sensors
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[20:07] <Jess--> we have notam in place for the next 4 sundays (one with restrictions on launching before 6pm) aiming for 3 launches
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, do you have a minute?
[20:07] <Upu> for you lunar always
[20:07] <Upu> how can I help ?
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> NTX2 related
[20:08] <craag> Jess--: Nice! Where are you launching from?
[20:09] <Jess--> thorpe camp
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[20:10] <Jess--> lat/long for thorpe camp 53.120572 -0.185427
[20:10] <craag> Ah up in lincolnshire.
[20:11] <Jess--> very surprised to get it due to the proximity of Conningsby
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[20:26] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AWnkkk2Nn0M
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[20:37] <chrisstubbs> Crude SDR# screenshot --> frequency program seems to be working :) http://i.imgur.com/BdNBcaN.jpg
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: was that the drunkbat signal?
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[20:45] <eroomde> does anyone have a timesonline subscription?
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[20:51] <ibanezmatt13> Pi Model A, on its way :)
[20:51] <tiouk_com> Upu sorry thought I had earlier.
[20:52] <Upu> hey tiouk_com nps
[20:52] <Upu> just restricted it whilst live flight on no biggie
[20:56] <ibanezmatt13> Still subject to change but we're looking at a launch date of Sunday 14th July at Cambridge, but don't hold me to that :)
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[21:09] <ibanezmatt13> I've started working on putting functions in my program.
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[21:30] <claudi> is there anybody there?
[21:30] <Jess--> I'm here
[21:30] <Jess--> and I'm sure many others are too
[21:30] <claudi> I thought nobody was here :D
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[21:32] <claudi> Where can I find a list of next balloon launches? I'd like to test the HAB tracker
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[21:33] <Jess--> http://habitat.habhub.org/calendar/
[21:34] <mfa298> launches are usually also announced on the mailinst list http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas
[21:34] <mfa298> claudi: there's often people around, but there isn't always conversation happening
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[21:36] <claudi> Thanks for your replies... The /calendar resource seems to be compatible only with iCalendar (MAC OS?) Can I open this file with another program running on Windows? Maybe Google calendar?
[21:36] <claudi> (BTW, sorry for my English; it's not my native language)
[21:37] <mfa298> you can import it into google calendar and recent versions of outlook
[21:37] <chrisstubbs> claudi, search google for "add icl to google calendar"
[21:37] <mfa298> ical is a fairly open standard that several things support
[21:37] <chrisstubbs> I wonder if that counts as googling google?
[21:38] <mfa298> you don't want to google google, the world might implode if that happens
[21:38] <claudi> Thank you so much
[21:38] <claudi> haha, sure... Googling google is just a recursion
[21:39] <mfa298> that reminds me, googling recursion is always good
[21:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> Simple calendar app for Windows http://wlcalendargadget.codeplex.com/ point it at as many calendars as you want
[21:41] <chrisstubbs> How have I never seen that one before!
[21:41] <claudi> BTW, sorry for not having introduced myself... My name's Claudi, I'm from Barcelona
[21:41] <chrisstubbs> Welcome
[21:41] <claudi> It's been a long long time since I used a chat like this. Gosh, I'm really old.
[21:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> It comes back to you after a while claudi !
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[21:44] <claudi> I guess most of you are from Great Britain, aren't you?
[21:44] <arko> AMERICA
[21:44] <arko> im sorry
[21:44] <arko> MURICA
[21:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> I am but normally a good selection of the Earth is covered
[21:44] <mfa298> there's a fair number of UK folks but there are a good range of people over europe
[21:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> Australia just whait for the right timezone to appear!
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> hi arko
[21:45] <arko> aloha
[21:45] <claudi> Haha, " a good selection of Earth"
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Scotland here
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> But there are regulars from Australia, Poland, USA, canada, ...
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> germany
[21:46] <claudi> Hi Scott... I once went to Scotland for holidays. That's a really beautiful land
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> the netherlands
[21:46] <arko> SCOTLANDDD
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> we once had a guy from South Africa
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> but I haven't seen him for a long time
[21:47] <claudi> (I visited GB too)
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> where is claudi from?
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> Is the boat guy still around - I'm blanking on his name.
[21:47] <mfa298> there's been a couple of people from South Africa but I think ones in the UK at the moment
[21:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> The SA guy is travelling at the moment I think he popped over to UK for a wedding last wek I think!
[21:48] <eroomde> kokey
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> err
[21:48] <claudi> (I like to say I'm from Catalonia, but officially I'm from Spain :D)
[21:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> Thats him
[21:48] <eroomde> but there was another chap
[21:48] <eroomde> Spiff?
[21:48] <mfa298> I think there was another SA guy as well
[21:48] <x-f> SamSilver
[21:48] Action: LazyLeopard at least once went into HAB online mode in dl-fldigi while operating from Kenya.
[21:48] <eroomde> SamualSpiff?
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> yeah sam it was
[21:48] <eroomde> samsilver
[21:48] <eroomde> that was it
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> claudi, cool
[21:49] <eroomde> wonder where i got spiff from
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> I think one of the first HABs I read about was a spanish teacher and four students launching a HAB there
[21:49] <x-f> Stratosphera?
[21:50] <claudi> Yes, they were from Girona, AFAIK. I'm actually from Barcelona (just below Girona)
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> x-f, no Stratospera is from Italy
[21:51] <x-f> ah, right
[21:51] <claudi> The Catalan project was called meteotek, I think
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[21:53] <claudi> Well, some months ago I decided to build my own balloon, and I've been digging into UKHAS stuff
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[21:54] <claudi> It's really interesting.
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[21:55] <claudi> My main hobby is astronomy and I'm looking for taking a pic of Earth from the stratosphere.
[21:56] <claudi> (I actually have a webpage about astronomy.. www.astres.cat)
[21:57] <chrisstubbs> Mwahahaa at last... after hours of VB and excel macros to mess data about so it lines up I have my first graph from todays testing :)
[22:00] <chrisstubbs> chris-stubbs.co.uk/hab/rfm22btempcyclingchart.pdf
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> lurn 2 gnuplot
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> but nice plot
[22:01] <chrisstubbs> thanks :P having all the frequency data as images was interesting
[22:01] <chrisstubbs> if gnuplot could handle that i would be impressed
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> eek
[22:02] <Geoff-G8DHE> Can you plot Freq. against load temp ?
[22:02] <chrisstubbs> yeah sure, the new escel makes no sense to me so will take a few mins
[22:02] <chrisstubbs> *excel
[22:03] <chrisstubbs> will do some dewpoint calculations as i think thats what was making the frequency drop
[22:03] <chrisstubbs> module had no problems at -50
[22:03] <mfa298> if gnuplot wont handle it learn to matlab
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> or octave
[22:04] <mfa298> although matlab costs ££
[22:04] <chrisstubbs> heard of matlab before but never used it. does sound powerful
[22:04] <Laurenceb_> gnu octave is almost as capable
[22:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> Dewpoint ? Surely you would see jumps as condensation appeared rather than drift ?
[22:04] <mfa298> matlab is very powerful - but has the price tag to match
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t96m2ynKw0
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> also its gnu so thats good right
[22:05] <chrisstubbs> Geoff-G8DHE, note where the frequency drops to 0
[22:05] <chrisstubbs> thats where the module cut out
[22:06] <chrisstubbs> there may have been a better way of showing that
[22:06] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah I thought you were concerned with drift!
[22:06] <chrisstubbs> Oh no thats expected without TXCO etc :)
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[22:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes that makes some sense, unless its the xtal cutting out at a given temp.
[22:07] <mfa298> Laurenceb_: great top comment on that - "This isÿ the correct way to do a Gentoo stage 1 installation"
[22:08] <chrisstubbs> Geoff-G8DHE, it seemed to cut out between -10 and 10 (on the positive ramp) so that made me think of dewpoint
[22:09] <Geoff-G8DHE> was this in free air, as after one cycle most of the moisture would have condensed out but not evaporated in the time
[22:10] <chrisstubbs> Just uploading some setup photos
[22:18] <chrisstubbs> Geoff-G8DHE, http://chris-stubbs.co.uk/hab/tempfreq.pdf Is that what you were after?
[22:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes thats what I was thinking of to start with, reasonably linear with hystersis, but the cut out yes odd, perhaps condensation could be the cause ?
[22:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> give the board a squirt of WD40 ;-)
[22:20] <chrisstubbs> I am going to try and re run the test in a helium jig
[22:20] <chrisstubbs> and try and get a overnight -50 soak, or even lower depending on how dead i want my board after :P
[22:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> lol
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[22:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> if that works in the heluim rig then all you will have to do is mount the Tx in the balloon !
[22:21] <chrisstubbs> wow
[22:21] <chrisstubbs> that would make things easy :P
[22:22] <chrisstubbs> Test photos: http://bit.ly/15UbGqg
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> I am still amazed that my freezer will hit -50
[22:23] <chrisstubbs> thermocouple on the back was for decorative purposes only
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> - if I press the 'boost' button and leave it 4 days
[22:24] <chrisstubbs> the aux T/C card on the chamber was destroyed :P
[22:24] <chrisstubbs> SpeedEvil, woah that is pretty low
[22:24] <chrisstubbs> this thing uses a big od compressor with an LN2 boost
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.appliancesonline.co.uk/product/RCNAA300P-Hotpoint-Chest-Freezer-White-26018.aspx?cm_mmc=Google%20PPC-_-PLA-_-Hotpoint-_-RCNAA300P_WH&WT.z_PT=MDA&WT.z_MT=Search&WT.z_RTM=PLA&WT.z_APT=chest%20freezers&WT.z_BR=Hotpoint&WT.z_FT=Free%20Standing&WT.z_PC=RCNAA300P_WH&WT.mc_id=1&gclid=CMmG4rL-0rcCFVMbtAodeFQAjw
[22:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> The dewpoint would have to be quite high around 15 degrees which seems odd ?
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> Getting to -80 with a small peltier should be easy
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> I keep meaning to make a little freeze-drier. Lightly insulated compartnemtn with a small heater, and a fan to act as a cold plate
[22:27] <claudi> Sure, my astrocams use peltiers that achieve a pretty low temperature to cold the CCD
[22:32] <chrisstubbs> Geoff-G8DHE, just trying a dewpoint plot
[22:33] <chrisstubbs> not sure if it will be worthwhile, but still :P
[22:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> Worth trying! The cycle time makes me wonder if it will all have evaporated ready to condense again on the next cycle?
[22:34] <chrisstubbs> Hmmmm
[22:34] <chrisstubbs> Will try with the helium jig next week depending how much other work is on
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> chrisstubbs, btw the sugru did not work anymore
[22:37] <chrisstubbs> Lunar_Lander, ahh man :(
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> when I cut the pack, it seems to have cured at the edges
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> at least it looked like it
[22:37] <chrisstubbs> I wonder what percentage of that stuff goes off before people use it
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[22:41] <Lunar_Lander> then I applied it to the board
[22:41] <Lunar_Lander> but it did not cure or stick
[22:41] <Lunar_Lander> so it was over with
[22:43] <chrisstubbs> darn
[22:43] <chrisstubbs> back to glue and tape!
[22:43] <chrisstubbs> excel has been misbehaving but i got there in the end: http://chris-stubbs.co.uk/hab/dewpoint.pdf
[22:43] <chrisstubbs> Getting a little crowded
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> humidity boards http://s.gullipics.com/image/k/5/0/5yvhji-kri360-rga1/IMG0196.jpeg
[22:44] <chrisstubbs> ahh cool
[22:44] <chrisstubbs> yeah those pads look a bit close together in the middle!
[22:45] <qyx_> they seem to be connected
[22:45] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:45] <Lunar_Lander> http://s.gullipics.com/image/j/t/e/5yvhji-kri37p-ue6c/IMG0197.jpeg
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[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> have to scratch them apart with a knife
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[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> also now I know the secret
[22:55] <Lunar_Lander> you don't have to drill out the "ring" formed by the contacts but actually use that for targetting a drill of the correct landing pattern diameter
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[23:46] <Laurenceb_> https://www.sparkfun.com/
[23:46] <Laurenceb_> what the heck
[23:47] <Randomskk> open source hardware at its finest
[23:47] <Laurenceb_> not sure if troll
[23:47] <Randomskk> fairly epic troll
[23:48] <Randomskk> but what if they're sincere...
[23:48] <Randomskk> it's either fantastic satire on the whole oshw thing
[23:48] <Randomskk> or.. well.
[23:48] <Laurenceb_> "This is perhaps the coolest application of OSHW ever."
[23:48] <Randomskk> on the internet you never can tell between sarcasm and extremism
[23:48] <Laurenceb_> poes law
[23:48] <arko> haha
[23:49] <Randomskk> poes law indeed
[23:49] <Randomskk> http://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/Tools/SFE_Spork_v1.pdf
[23:49] <Randomskk> "good luck concentrator"
[23:50] <Laurenceb_> Titanium <- nice
[23:51] <Laurenceb_> thats quite cheap if its real
[23:51] <Randomskk> lol
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[00:00] --- Sat Jun 8 2013