highaltitude.log.20130529

[00:05] <nigelvh_> Cutting down soon?
[00:07] <BadClown> i should be sleeping, as I get up to work in 5 hrs... and I'm wathing a flying baloon :]
[00:08] <nigelvh_> On the internet
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[00:13] <BadClown> is it sending live images to some server ?
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[00:21] <Darkside> cut
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[00:30] <arko> oh look an airport
[00:30] <arko> Darkside: $20 if you land on the runway
[00:30] <arko> $40 if you get a helicopter pad
[00:31] <Darkside> haha
[00:34] <arko> are you close to the landing site?
[00:36] <Darkside> yes
[00:36] <Darkside> look on the map
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[00:53] <Darkside> right under the landing site
[00:53] <Darkside> lol
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[01:08] <nigelvh> Darkside, still on?
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[01:20] <Darkside> all recovered
[01:20] <Darkside> eas easy
[01:20] <Darkside> i got a picture of it landing
[01:20] <shenki> Darkside: nice
[01:20] <shenki> it was landing on your heads :)
[01:20] <shenki> we watched it come down on the tracker here
[01:21] <shenki> Darkside: were you on any repeaters?
[01:21] <Darkside> nah
[01:21] <Darkside> out of range of RMB here
[01:21] <shenki> too far away?
[01:21] <shenki> yeah
[01:21] <Darkside> we're heading back now, just going through coonalpyn
[01:21] <shenki> cool
[01:21] <Darkside> well, past it now
[01:22] <Darkside> going to upload some pics in a bit
[01:22] <shenki> tell drowe that vk5fmoo is home until 2, if he wants to retrieve his headphones
[01:22] <Darkside> k
[01:22] <shenki> also, my 817 cat cable arrived today
[01:23] <Darkside> nice
[01:36] <Darkside> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2013-05-29_Horus_32/
[01:36] <arko> WICKED
[01:36] <arko> ive always wanted to see a hab land
[01:36] <nigelvh> Nice dude
[01:38] <Darkside> we saw it when it was at about 500m
[01:38] <Darkside> then we chased it down
[01:38] <Darkside> and saw it land in a field
[01:38] <arko> epic
[01:40] <Darkside> thanks
[01:41] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
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[06:34] <ibanezmatt13> Good morning :)
[06:37] <x-f> good morning
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[06:39] <ibanezmatt13> So do you reckon this is any good for tracking? http://radioworld.ca/mr77sma-p-11109.html
[06:41] <craag> ibanezmatt13: Looks great, just make sure it's got the right connector for you.
[06:42] <ibanezmatt13> The SMA isn't the right connector, but I heard that I could get an SMA->BNC adapter for my reciever?
[06:42] <craag> Erm, from canada though?
[06:42] <ibanezmatt13> I can't ind it in the UK
[06:42] <ibanezmatt13> Unless there's a similar one
[06:42] <craag> there will be..
[06:43] <ibanezmatt13> Do they have to be a certain height?
[06:43] <fsphil> cpc have that antenna for a lot less
[06:44] <fsphil> http://cpc.farnell.com/watson/wsm-270/wsm-270-mini-mag-antenna/dp/IT44456
[06:45] <ibanezmatt13> thanks fsphil. That looks great
[06:45] <ibanezmatt13> and it has a BNC connector!
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[06:50] <ibanezmatt13> Just out of curiosity, say there was a launch today, what would be my chances of being able to track it from my bedroom? Would the waves get through the walls of the house or is it not that stong?
[06:56] <craag> ibanezmatt13: It would certainly be weaker through walls than it would be through a window.
[06:57] <craag> An upstairs windowsill facing the direction of the balloon is the best place for a quick setup.
[06:57] <ibanezmatt13> I thought so. What about if I was on a road? Would it get through trees and things like that?
[06:58] <craag> Trees are no problem, stuff like hills will block it though!
[06:59] <ibanezmatt13> My Grandma's house has easy roof access and it's in quite a high level area. I could set the antenna up on the roof and have the cable run into the loft where I could have a laptop perhaps?
[07:00] <craag> Sounds a good plan. Having the antenna in the loft with a cable down to the sofa would also work!
[07:00] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah :)
[07:00] <craag> Most roofs won't block it much.
[07:00] <craag> It's bricks, metal and earth that does.
[07:01] <ibanezmatt13> Well I'll do that for tracking other flights. But for tracking my own I'll need to be in a car moving with it, and that's where the magnetic mount comes in :)
[07:01] <craag> Yep
[07:02] <ibanezmatt13> By the way, I've written this code with some help, but I think looking at it, it could be more organised; what do you think? https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5663226
[07:03] <ibanezmatt13> The code searches through images for the best file, returns the name of that file and passes it onto another function, some files are moved about, SSDV is used to break down the image and the packets are passed to the serial (WHICH WORKS!)
[07:03] <craag> erm looks quite organised to me!
[07:03] <ibanezmatt13> I had an LED flickering as it was connected to the serial port. Thank you :)
[07:04] <craag> Some more professional programmers may have other views. But it's a lot more organised than most of my code ;)
[07:04] <ibanezmatt13> The only problem is, I can't work out where I will introduce the GPS part. I want the GPS to send data every 30 seconds regardless of anything else. If the packets take several minutes, I need ideally to send a GPS string in between each packet. Where will that go?
[07:05] <cm13g09> craag: Get back to revision... you have an exam this morning :P
[07:05] <ibanezmatt13> I should have really put a few comments in too
[07:05] <craag> cm13g09: :(
[07:05] <ibanezmatt13> Do you?
[07:05] <craag> yeah...
[07:05] <cm13g09> it's OK, 3hr 30 and it'll all be over
[07:05] <craag> cm13g09: :D
[07:05] <ibanezmatt13> What exam?
[07:06] <craag> Advanced COmputer Architecture..
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[07:06] <ibanezmatt13> Degree level I presume?
[07:06] <craag> yep
[07:06] <cm13g09> AKA Advanced Denis (since we get more anecdotes about the lecturer....)
[07:06] <ibanezmatt13> :) What university is this?
[07:06] <craag> *more anecdotes than real notes
[07:06] <cm13g09> Southampton
[07:06] <craag> Southampton Uni
[07:07] <ibanezmatt13> Ah right. Sound rather complex
[07:07] <cm13g09> ibanezmatt13: it is!
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[07:07] <ibanezmatt13> well good luck! :)
[07:07] <cm13g09> thanks - we may, or may not need it
[07:07] <cm13g09> it depends if he's set an exam that looks like one the fourth years had last week
[07:08] <craag> ibanezmatt13: I'd say in the end of your "while packets != '':" at a guess, but I should probably grab some breakfast and get back to Pentium4s
[07:08] <craag> cm13g09: oh?
[07:08] <ibanezmatt13> Definitely! :) But thanks anyway
[07:08] <cm13g09> (That was a Cryptography exam last week that suffered from the "Here's a multiple of two primes, here's some encrypted text, decrypt it."
[07:08] <craag> ouch...
[07:08] <cm13g09> yup
[07:09] <cm13g09> it's 50/50 if it'll be like that or not :P
[07:09] <cm13g09> the primes were sufficiently good that it was only just doable on a calculator.....
[07:09] <craag> yeah.. i overheard him talking in labs on friday, apparently they didn't have time to proofread the paper before they had to print it, so I quote "Hopefully it'll go ok for you"
[07:10] <cm13g09> mm
[07:10] <cm13g09> that's Denis for ya ;)
[07:10] <craag> anyway, brekkie time
[07:10] <cm13g09> craag: it is 3 of 5 today isn't it?
[07:10] <cm13g09> with calculators?
[07:10] <craag> erm I think so.
[07:11] <cm13g09> yes
[07:11] <cm13g09> 3 of 5, with calculators
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[07:11] <craag> kl
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[07:13] <fiftymore> btw there are no two actual Primes (that's an online myth due to various ip clumsy cloning exploits) ;)
[07:14] <fiftymore> that said, iLove this story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1729_%28number%29
[07:17] <fsphil> sunday prediction for here is quite amazing: http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=42f44f79149f3676ada627ad9d9278da85287ec1
[07:17] <arko> do it!
[07:18] <fsphil> it's up to the mysterious shadowy agency known as the CAA
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[07:18] <arko> hah
[07:18] <arko> wow, i just streetviewed it
[07:18] <arko> very pretty and green
[07:19] <fsphil> I think it's worth getting the tank of He for it
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[07:22] <fsphil> cool, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22699004
[07:23] <arko> you guys have earthquakes?
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[07:23] <number10> not very often
[07:24] <fsphil> they seem to happen mostly in the middle, between scotland and england
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[08:04] <costyn> fsphil: that prediction is really cool :)
[08:05] <costyn> fsphil: range 9.6 lol
[08:05] <fsphil> no doubt it will change before then :)
[08:06] <costyn> fsphil: do you have your own hourly predictor as well?
[08:07] <x-f> fsphil, what are you going to fly? only 2 m/s ascent?
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[08:09] <fsphil> x-f: rpi + cam
[08:10] <fsphil> costyn: yep :) http://hourly.sanslogic.co.uk/
[08:10] <fsphil> those the parameters for that are not for that flight
[08:10] <fsphil> I must update that
[08:10] <x-f> almost two Lunars at one Babs up
[08:11] <eroomde> I do not understand this language
[08:11] <fsphil> 2 lunars altitude at a babs ascent rate :)
[08:12] <eroomde> I C
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[08:15] <daveake> Update the "UKHAS terms" page fsphil :)
[08:15] <fsphil> 1 babsian
[08:16] <fsphil> babsians per second
[08:16] <fsphil> a normal flight needs an ascent rate of 2.5 babs
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[08:17] <fsphil> my boss has left a 'mobile repeater' in to be fixed
[08:18] <fsphil> probably totally illegal, but if you had one of these and aimed the output antenna straight up :)
[08:19] <eroomde> what about babs descent rate!?
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[08:23] <fsphil> kilobabs
[08:24] <HixWork> babbingtonnes
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[08:25] <eroomde> nowt wrong with being heavy
[08:26] <HixWork> nope - just read your email eroomde. I agree, just a case of ensuring descent is controlled
[08:27] <ibanezmatt13> I've written a letter to a company called Air Products. They have a big place near me and they do Helium. I believe it's a massive company owned by an American. I've written a letter offering them to sponsor my balloon attempt by donating a helium cylinder. I have nothing to loose really, and they'd probably benefit from the PR.
[08:29] <eroomde> they will say no
[08:29] <eroomde> that's like asking tesco to give you food
[08:29] <eroomde> because you are worthy
[08:29] <eroomde> worth a try anyway
[08:30] <fiftymore> oh i'd go for that
[08:30] <eroomde> and yes they are big, about as big as BOC
[08:30] <eroomde> we use them instead of BOC as their depot is just down the road
[08:30] <fiftymore> they may want the balloon shaped like hotdogs @ tesco ultimately
[08:30] <HixWork> Didcot?
[08:30] <fiftymore> but
[08:30] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, worth a try i suppose. :)
[08:30] <eroomde> we got free helium from BOC
[08:30] <eroomde> but that is a university arrangement
[08:31] <ibanezmatt13> I'm just trying to find a way to get cheap helium in im honest :)
[08:31] <fiftymore> this looks the virgin domain commercially. trust me when i comment this. however unfounded the comment on commercial potential may later seem
[08:31] <HixWork> there's a link on the wiki in the balloon data section
[08:31] <HixWork> cheapest I can find
[08:31] <eroomde> vigin domain?
[08:31] <eroomde> virgin*
[08:31] <fiftymore> hmm do what you want to do
[08:32] <fiftymore> don't think about money. money won't result in happiness beyond a point either way
[08:32] <eroomde> i think it's helium he wants
[08:32] <eroomde> rather than money
[08:32] <fiftymore> if a design doesn't seem cheap enough, focus on how to make it even cheaper. these are the true emotional rewards to life
[08:33] <fiftymore> perhaps helium is too expensive and there is another alternative which is cheaper, for instance
[08:33] <ibanezmatt13> :) Will do, have to catch a train now . Thanks. I considered Hydrogen but I thought it would probably blow up if I did it :p
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[08:34] <eroomde> are you a fortune cookie?
[08:34] <fiftymore> i don't want to get inventive here because that is bigbucks and other vied-over stuff..but buoyancy is ultimately defined how, in the rw
[08:35] <fiftymore> eroomde, i don't think tesco wants a charred dog quite that way..to "answer" your "question"
[08:36] <eroomde> I am lost
[08:36] <HixWork> confusing it is
[08:39] <daveake> I need a new fish
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[08:40] <eroomde> fiftymore: i'm not sure being inventive requires big bucks?
[08:42] <fiftymore> eroomde, sometimes the more cut-off the technology from funding, the more desperately creative it may get :)
[08:44] <eroomde> i agree with that
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[09:09] <fiftymore> high altitude folk are awesome to 'see'. if there's another technology this all migrates to after that try and apprise me rather than it relying on more random .. :)
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[09:10] <fiftymore> i did once talk to someone who'd done a gondola design they said, for a balloon measuring the ozone hole at that time. random thing, a musician i knew was roomates with someone working in a climate lab or something
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[09:12] <eroomde> that would be an interesting experiment
[09:14] <fiftymore> doing the ozone hole composition as one might do bitcoin music streaming to the web was it? ;)
[09:17] <eroomde> Are you sure you're not a markov chain?
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[09:25] <kokey> I made it to the UK
[09:25] <eroomde> congrats
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[09:25] <eroomde> we laid on the weather especially
[09:26] <kokey> got notified that my passport and visa has been approved on Friday morning, rushed over to collect it
[09:26] <kokey> had half an hour to book flights and pack, then rushed to the airport
[09:26] <fsphil> weather is actually pretty fantastic here today
[09:26] <fsphil> typically stuck in an office
[09:26] <kokey> flew from Johannesburg to London overnight on Friday night, landed at Heathrow, took a taxi to South London, got my car and drove to Manchester
[09:26] <kokey> had to take some naps at services along the way
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[09:34] <gonzo_> work trip?
[09:35] <kokey> nope, social visit
[09:35] <kokey> went to a wedding over the weekend and now visiting my girlfriend's folks in Leicestershire
[09:36] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] BABSHAB launch - Great Tew, Saturday 25th May-Monday 27th
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[09:38] <fsphil> hehe, love that link
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[09:50] <eroomde> yo Babs
[09:51] <Babs> yo eroomde. How are your ellipses this morning? In growth or in decline?
[09:52] <x-f> Babs, very nice write-up of your flight
[09:53] <Babs> Thanks x-f. I think I need one of these *does finger quote marks* "websites". Would probably be a better way of communicating information than my google group / flickr posts
[09:54] <eroomde> i ain't not be touching it
[09:54] <eroomde> i'm doing electronics
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[09:56] <Babs> I would love to be doing electronics. Sadly, I am mainly analysing egg prices this morning (they are going down faster than BABSHAB with a tangled 'chute, in case you are curious).
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> Babs: down?
[09:56] <eroomde> good for us
[09:56] <costyn> Babs: interesting line of work
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> I guess they had shot up
[09:56] <costyn> Babs: nice writeup btw on your flight, informative
[09:56] <eroomde> yes i liked it too
[09:56] <eroomde> but odd about the scent rate
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> yup!
[09:57] <costyn> Babs: that GoPro footage from the apex, I thought it was a photograph when I first looked at it, so little did it move
[09:57] <costyn> very odd about the ascent rate, and yet still a fairly normal burst altitude
[09:57] <Martin-D> hi all :)
[09:58] <costyn> hehe... RocketBoy is a bit jaded by all us amateurs :)
[09:58] <Babs> Egg prices never stay up for long. As soon as they go up, everyone piles in to grow more chickens. As they take 30 days to maturity, the price rapidly comes back down again. The beef cycle takes longer, as although people do the same thing, it takes longer to grow a cow.
[09:58] <Babs> (Babs egg fact for the day)
[09:58] <costyn> getting your own high altitude pictures is good fun, but I guess not for seasoned pro's like himself
[09:59] <Babs> SpeedEvil - yes, down
[09:59] <costyn> Babs: thats very intersting... never thought of it that way
[09:59] <Brace> Babs: that's good, I buy a lot of eggs :D
[09:59] <Brace> bad for a mate tho, he's a chicken farmer
[09:59] <costyn> Babs: and are eggs usually confined to one country, or are they shipped internationally too?
[09:59] <Babs> costyn - thanks! still haven't worked out what was going on with my balloon rate of ascent although, assuming I didn't change the laws of physics, either the necessary lift was wrong or I underfilled.
[10:00] <Babs> I would imagine my incompetence would drive the latter ;-)
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> costyn: mostly national, in general.
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> at least in the uk
[10:00] <costyn> Babs: well, considering any of the earlier mentioned 'seasoned pro's haven't weighed in with their analysis/comments I'd say it's likely not something straightforward
[10:00] <eroomde> i sort of agree with Rocketboy tho (as you can tell from my email)
[10:01] <eroomde> it's not really about amatuer or not
[10:01] <eroomde> and everyone wants to have a first couple of sigh-seeing flights
[10:01] <eroomde> but...
[10:01] <costyn> eroomde: well it just seems like everyone is just sending up payloads to do pictures, but that's mostly firsttimers. Upu and Dave have been doing alternative experiments
[10:02] <eroomde> well i dunno
[10:02] <costyn> on our next one we're trying something different for our camera platform, to try & stabilize it. We'll see how it goes. Also sending up a "science" payload measuring electromagentic fields and other assorted parameters
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[10:03] <Laurenceb> http://astroengine.com/2012/01/29/put-the-weather-balloon-back-in-the-box/
[10:03] <Laurenceb> hehe
[10:03] <Laurenceb> trololololol
[10:03] <Babs> brb - call
[10:04] <eroomde> payloads used to be a lot more mechical and have things and bits and bobs and all sorts of crazy. maybe i'm just romanticising
[10:04] <eroomde> but the ambition increase per flight for the next flight seemed much higher
[10:05] <Laurenceb> you kind of are
[10:05] <costyn> Laurenceb: hehe... nicely put, in that article
[10:05] <Laurenceb> we need to do something interesting again
[10:05] <Laurenceb> whats this "stabilized platform" thing?
[10:05] <Laurenceb> did it work?
[10:05] <costyn> Laurenceb: very much yes
[10:05] <Laurenceb> documentation?
[10:05] <Laurenceb> is there a page about it?
[10:06] <costyn> Laurenceb: ones ec
[10:06] <eroomde> it's really beutiful
[10:06] <eroomde> it's back like what it used to be (but beautifuller)
[10:07] <costyn> Laurenceb: http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/sets/72157632733154985/
[10:07] <Laurenceb> oh wow
[10:07] <Laurenceb> nice work
[10:07] <eroomde> it really is
[10:08] <costyn> yea very cool
[10:08] <Laurenceb> http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/8461544439/in/set-72157632733154985
[10:08] <Laurenceb> sheeeet
[10:08] <costyn> Babs: you didn't end up using the cutdowns I guess?
[10:08] <eroomde> what i mean by crazier back in the day per step is things like
[10:08] <costyn> Laurenceb: all 3d printed :)
[10:08] <eroomde> nova 1 showed we could do it
[10:08] <Brace> I like what Dave / El Reg are doing personally, dropping planes from a HAB sounds like good fun :D
[10:09] <eroomde> nova 2 was about 6 cameras and trying out rtty for the first time
[10:09] <eroomde> nova 3 looked like the ISS
[10:09] <eroomde> it was about 2m in every direction and was full of trusses and experiments and a rocket launch tube and crappy webcams that didn;t like the cold and stuff
[10:09] <eroomde> i sadly can't find a picture of it
[10:09] <Laurenceb> so how does it stabilize?
[10:09] <eroomde> but here is an example picture from it
[10:09] <Laurenceb> three reaction wheels on the top?
[10:09] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3740959192/in/set-72157621752771172
[10:10] <costyn> Laurenceb: there's several movies included, try them
[10:10] <eroomde> that was nova 4 - reflight of same but with a live rocket
[10:10] <costyn> this is just nuts: http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/8622543326/in/set-72157632733154985
[10:10] <eroomde> i adore that ^
[10:10] <eroomde> it's mechanical and beautiful
[10:11] <costyn> Babs: did you make everything in a CAD package beforehand?
[10:11] <Laurenceb> CNC milled foam?
[10:11] <costyn> or waterjet cut
[10:12] <eroomde> if he's away, i beleive the foam is hand done
[10:12] <eroomde> and the white stuff is 3d printed
[10:12] <eroomde> here is nova 4 cad model
[10:12] <eroomde> http://www.cusf.co.uk/images/FEAModel.jpg
[10:12] <eroomde> rocket launch tube in the middle, 3 deployable chute-mortars in the spars
[10:12] <eroomde> and the top was a breadboard for avionics which doubled as an airbrake if the chutes failed
[10:12] <Laurenceb> do the gyros spin at constant speed?
[10:13] <Laurenceb> or variable?
[10:13] <eroomde> yes i beleive they do - they are for passively damping
[10:13] <Laurenceb> i see
[10:13] <eroomde> again i'm just going on what i've heard from babs as he seems to be away
[10:13] <Laurenceb> seems to work well
[10:13] <costyn> yep, they spin... seems they stopped spinngin when the batteries got too cold
[10:13] <costyn> but started up again on the way down
[10:13] <Laurenceb> heh
[10:15] <eroomde> i would be interested, if babs doesn't ind sharing, in a rough cost of the 3d printing
[10:15] <eroomde> it seems like an excellent way of doing things for an actively stabilised payload
[10:16] <Laurenceb> http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/8685754749/in/set-72157632733154985/
[10:16] <Laurenceb> those 9v connectors, what are they for?
[10:16] <Laurenceb> testing the motors?
[10:18] <x-f> for batteries, they were outside
[10:20] <Laurenceb> wtf
[10:21] <Laurenceb> no wonder it failed
[10:21] <Laurenceb> wasnt that CF tube?!
[10:21] <Babs> OK, I'm back, taking things in turn
[10:21] <Laurenceb> just stick power cables down the tube
[10:21] <Laurenceb> im just trolling your design skills Babs
[10:21] <x-f> it was by design, i believe
[10:22] <Babs> Costyn - yes, was really pleased with the stability. I think it was part the gimbal (it stabilises quite quickly on the launch video) and part that it wasn't particularly windy on the way up. Still, I have 30 mins of video up there where it is barely moving or rotating
[10:22] <costyn> Babs: cool
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[10:23] <HixWork> Babs, what did oyu desgin it in? Interested to have a look at the model
[10:24] <HixWork> oh btw CS4 wouldn't open the RAW files :/
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[10:24] <eroomde> for reference here's a video from nova 9 which was without any stabilisation effort (just my usually pernicketiness about wrigging) http://vimeo.com/1626665
[10:24] <HixWork> maybe i need an update for Canon
[10:24] <Babs> On the eggs front, they can be shipped internationally, but new EU regs about minimum size of hatcheries caused some issues. Basically, the UK adhered to them (hence the prices rose because cost of keeping chickens increased) but East Europe didn't. So even though they were cheaper, they couldn't be imported because the UK processors were scared of breaching the law indirectly
[10:24] <eroomde> hell of a difference on burst!
[10:24] <Babs> (enough on eggs)
[10:24] <HixWork> eroomde, was that model pic you posted done in I-DEAS?
[10:25] <ibanezmatt13> Does anybody know of some good software which I can use to draw up schematics for my payload?
[10:25] <eroomde> nfi
[10:25] <eroomde> but i just found a video of it launching!
[10:25] <eroomde> http://vimeo.com/5686559
[10:25] <eroomde> that was 3-4kg
[10:27] <HixWork> ibanezmatt13, EagleCADfrom cadsoft is popular here, free too
[10:27] <Babs> http://astroengine.com/2012/01/29/put-the-weather-balloon-back-in-the-box/ - that told me....
[10:27] <eroomde> no that doesn't apply to you Babs
[10:28] <eroomde> yours is the good shit
[10:28] <ibanezmatt13> HixWork: Thanks :)
[10:28] <HixWork> nps
[10:28] <fiftymore> didn't see all that on pricing of eggs but i'm sure the price of eggs has more to do with what
[10:29] <eroomde> that payload is the awesomest balloon-payload i've seen for about 3/4 years
[10:29] <fiftymore> the keeping of (egg-laying) chickens here has been discussed by the way. why go through the whole grocer chain for all that really
[10:29] <eroomde> 3 or 4 rather than 9 months
[10:30] <Babs> costyn - no. I didn't get chance to test it unfortunately, so I didn't fly it for fear of it not going up and then activating on the ground on some poor unsuspecting member of the public. I'm conscious that the CAA are currently allowing all of this on the basis of a bit of trusting amateurs (not being derogatory using that term, just that it is a hobby for most)
[10:30] <HixWork> ibanezmatt13, http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=16338 & http://amtek.wordpress.com/2010/10/24/eagle-tutorial/ should get you going
[10:30] <ibanezmatt13> cheers :)
[10:30] <Babs> and it only needs one member of the public to be hurt, the Daily Mail gets hold of it and quickly the barrier for launching is raised too high and spoils everyones fun
[10:30] <Babs> but i do have the cutdowns made and the coding done, it just needs to be testing
[10:31] <fiftymore> it's the pros dropping missiles on iraq which aren't trustworthy now..The Amateurs doing balloons and whatever the public would trust unless suspecting they'd had that other input
[10:31] <fiftymore> g w is apparently headed for the warcrimes docket
[10:31] <Babs> another call, brb
[10:32] <fiftymore> poor gw
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[10:32] <fiftymore> canceling that swiss trip now too
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[10:32] <fsphil> wednesdays are weird on #ha
[10:33] <lz1dev> how so ?
[10:33] <fiftymore> what's weird about the world wanting g.w. in the docket for his aviation-enabled warcrimes?
[10:34] <fiftymore> We don't understand which parts of this are not straight-out of high altitude technology
[10:34] <eroomde> it's OT
[10:34] <eroomde> as is a great deal of your brief visit here so far
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[10:34] <gonzo_> must be something in the air (or not, as the case may be)
[10:34] <fiftymore> what's odd are when the regulars
[10:34] <fiftymore> outweigh the newbies
[10:34] <fiftymore> on their claims
[10:35] <eroomde> one of the universe's inexplicable things
[10:35] <gonzo_> what counrty are you from fiftymore?
[10:35] <fsphil> I think my fish is broke too daveake
[10:35] <GW8RAK> lol
[10:36] <fiftymore> gonzo_ what world were the warcriminals murdering over a 1,000,000 iraqis exploiting high altitude tech from, is the better question, is it not?
[10:37] <gonzo_> ?
[10:37] <fiftymore> why create so many bodies when trying to float such a false wmd balloon?
[10:37] <fsphil> maybe in #politics
[10:37] <Babs> Nova 3 is awesome. the photos look like something from Vostok 1
[10:37] <eroomde> fiftymore: this channel is about hobby weather-balloon launches and similar things, regardless of how you intepret the channel name
[10:37] <fiftymore> why'd they mass murder all those iraqis, using high altitude tech
[10:37] <gonzo_> Did I miss a few paragraphs there?
[10:37] <HixWork> "My nipples explode with delight!"
[10:37] <HixWork> :)
[10:37] <eroomde> gonzo_: no
[10:37] <lz1dev> fsphil: i see what you mean
[10:37] <eroomde> Babs: it had a nice stanley-knide aesthetic
[10:37] <fiftymore> okay eroomde so it's about such hobbies yes We all see that, thanks for the reminder of what you're about
[10:38] <Babs> costyn - yes, all done in google sketchup. It used to be free but I'm not sure now. It was one of those projects that google have got bored with because it didn't make any money and let go.
[10:38] <fiftymore> good for intention
[10:38] <eroomde> fiftymore: it's more than I'm gently suggesting you stay more on topic
[10:38] <fiftymore> i do love the world's best gondola work naturally
[10:38] <Babs> There are a bunch of video tutorials which show you how to make basic things like cones, cubes etc. and then its just a case of going from there
[10:39] <fiftymore> eroomde, you're a government operative who doesn't know the difference between being gentle and raping citizens' chat, face it
[10:39] <fiftymore> you mall for money don't you?
[10:39] <fiftymore> .
[10:39] <HixWork> Babs, can you export to any other 3D formats? STL IGES?
[10:39] <fiftymore> or is that maul?
[10:39] <Babs> I have a technical drawing GCSE (I'm sure its not called technical drawing anymore) and that is it so no special training is needed, just a bit of messing around with sketchup to work out what is going on.
[10:39] <daveake> Is there somewhere I can go which has more HAB and less bollox?
[10:40] <eroomde> yes you know where :)
[10:40] <gonzo_> someone do it please
[10:40] <fsphil> I'm not as good at CAD as I'd like to be
[10:40] <fiftymore> the mil folks or is that fucks, have an attitude about citizens complaining about their own funding of a channel which is used for what ultimately, really?
[10:40] <HixWork> your cover is blown eroomde ;p
[10:40] <fiftymore> more weapons?
[10:40] <fiftymore> gosh oh golly
[10:40] <Babs> There is a bit of learning in terms of manufacturing tolerances (e.g. making the holes 0.3mm wider than the carbon fibre rods going in is the right tolerance for a snug fit) but no more than that
[10:41] <daveake> fiftyymore If I understood what you were on about I might suggest a better place for you to be, but instead I'll just say "not here, thanks"
[10:41] <eroomde> fiftymore: indeed, not this channel please
[10:41] <eroomde> you're welcome here if you want to talk about high altitude balloon projects
[10:41] <fiftymore> daveake, that's very nice of you to do the over-monitoring given the altitude of the chan..thanks for your gov"work" there
[10:42] <eroomde> but it's not the place for excessive politics or swearing
[10:42] <fiftymore> eroomde, i've always only commented on such projects
[10:42] <eroomde> no you haven't, sorry
[10:42] <daveake> The paranoia is strong int this one
[10:42] <fiftymore> your excessives are due to your "work"
[10:42] <fiftymore> for the so-called "government" of course
[10:42] <fiftymore> monitoring chans are they not?
[10:42] <fiftymore> yes, i have--no "sorry" there
[10:42] <HixWork> fiftymore, you are really not on the right channel for political discussion, we are all about HAB [high altitude balloons] and terrible puns
[10:42] <Brace> please tell me that someone on here has ops?
[10:42] <eroomde> are you richard vere-compton?
[10:43] <Babs> Laurenceb, costyn. All of the foam is hand cut, a lot of the art I do is with a scalpel cutting stuff up so I had a bit of practice with it
[10:43] <fiftymore> overuse of pronouns
[10:43] <fiftymore> underuse of hab tech there
[10:43] <HixWork> overuse of substances
[10:43] <fiftymore> let's continue on some very nice balloons shall We?
[10:43] <GW8RAK> What about those of us who don't work for the government, but think you are "off topic"? You are still wasting bandwidth.
[10:43] <gonzo_> it's that polystyrene cement fumes
[10:44] <fiftymore> keep the substances talk to your own balloon hits there fixsmirk
[10:44] <Babs> eroomde - its £2 per cm3. Not the cheapest although the guy I used has now bought an SLS machine which appears to have reduced the cost a bit http://www.3dprint-uk.co.uk/
[10:44] <daveake> I blame UHU
[10:44] <daveake> Or Upu
[10:44] <daveake> One of them
[10:44] <eroomde> how many cm^3 roughly in babshab?
[10:44] <HixWork> that was por daveake
[10:44] <eroomde> excluding say the gyro housings
[10:44] <daveake> :)
[10:44] <eroomde> more than joint fixings
[10:45] <Babs> I reckon I spent something like £800 on printing it out. It is totally economically unjustified, it was more a case of proving to myself I could do it and teaching myself a new skill.
[10:45] <eroomde> i guess i could work it out myself, just very interested in a super-rom
[10:45] <eroomde> you don;t have to justify hobby spending like that to anyone here :)
[10:45] <eroomde> it's a really beautiful bit of work
[10:45] <fiftymore> with all the externalities to those "costs" who would ever have justified them
[10:46] <fiftymore> nice balloon projects actually done from the ground up would be interesting to see sometime rather than all the welfare
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[10:46] <fiftymore> allo Ley
[10:46] <eroomde> fiftymore: last chance please
[10:46] <eroomde> no more political randomness
[10:46] <HixWork> My hovercraft is full of eels.
[10:46] <gonzo_> all balloons are doen from the ground up. Then back down again
[10:46] <Babs> laurenceb - the batteries were deliberately on the outside. The gyros only need to spin up at low altitudes because they aren't needed up high where there is no buffeting. I didn't know whether they would last the whole flight so the cold was a nice way of conveniently turning them off when they weren't needed
[10:47] <fiftymore> gonzo_ noticed that tech reality to the comment above eh? 2 pts
[10:47] <Babs> hixwork - google sketchup. If you tell me the best place to put the files, I'll upload them all.
[10:47] <HixWork> Babs, hmm, don't think i can read them. lemme see if i can find a translator
[10:47] <eroomde> get yourseld a "website" :)
[10:48] <eroomde> yourself*
[10:48] <fiftymore> selds sites eh
[10:48] <fiftymore> somethings
[10:48] <fiftymore> get off the ground @least!
[10:48] #highaltitude: mode change '+o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
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[10:48] <HixWork> boom
[10:48] <Babs> Nova4 won on the ascent rate
[10:48] <eroomde> that was quite fast yes
[10:48] #highaltitude: mode change '+o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[10:49] <gonzo_> And I was just about top reply with "Drop your panties, Sir William. I cannot wait until lunchtime!"
[10:49] #highaltitude: mode change '-o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[10:49] <gonzo_> wasn't that fun then
[10:49] <eroomde> no
[10:49] <jonsowman> it was not
[10:49] <eroomde> the fastest ascent rate i've ever done was by accident
[10:49] <GW8RAK> What was he on about? Mostly gibberish
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[10:49] <eroomde> the balloon broke the seal on the fell rig
[10:49] <eroomde> taking the fill pipe with it
[10:49] <eroomde> before the payload was attached
[10:50] <eroomde> that was a bad day
[10:50] <GW8RAK> How fast was fast?
[10:50] <HixWork> so , we are being monitored by the government here? Bugger
[10:50] <eroomde> it had about 18 m^3 of He in it
[10:50] <GW8RAK> no payload, so unknown
[10:50] <eroomde> indeed
[10:50] <eroomde> it was fast though!
[10:50] <eroomde> there was some experimentation a few years ago with aerodynamic balloons too
[10:50] <eroomde> basically gloried bin bags
[10:51] <eroomde> welded together into a sausage
[10:51] <eroomde> glorified*
[10:53] <eroomde> Babs: we had a go at aerodynamic damping once
[10:53] <eroomde> http://vimeo.com/3803248
[10:53] <eroomde> not quite as elegant
[10:53] <eroomde> but did the job
[10:53] <eroomde> it had 2 balloons, one agressively filled tractor balloon, the other just abou neutrally bouyant
[10:54] <costyn> eroomde: heh... was thread of being kicked enough for that asshat to leave?
[10:54] <eroomde> at a predetermined altitude (like 28km) it cut the lifty one away
[10:54] <eroomde> and spent some time just sitting with a very low vertical rate under the neutral one
[10:54] <eroomde> this was in the dark ages before howyees which floated without you having to do much :)
[10:55] <daveake> :)
[10:55] <eroomde> but you can see the payload itself is pretty stable on the way up
[10:56] <eroomde> i liked that payload. it had a sort of bayeux tapestry comet aesthetic to it
[10:56] <Brace> eroomde: thanks for exercising your ops
[10:56] <fsphil> that should be a lot less stressful on the neutral balloon
[10:56] <eroomde> i didn;t actually do anything
[10:56] <eroomde> he just dissappeared when i opped
[10:56] <Brace> he knew what was coming I guess....
[10:56] <fsphil> wonder if that would float longer
[10:57] <eroomde> not sure. i think we had a radius-based cutdown
[10:57] <eroomde> it was flying henry's first attempt at a star tracker
[10:57] <eroomde> so we wanted high alts and low angular rates
[10:57] <HixWork> Babs :/ no translate for Sketchup to CAD
[10:57] <fsphil> I tried imaging stars with the Pi cam recently, but just caused it to crash
[10:58] <eroomde> he'd like to come and meet us but he know's he'll crash our Pi
[10:58] <HixWork> groan
[10:58] <fsphil> Piman
[10:58] <eroomde> i'll get my coat
[10:58] <HixWork> heh
[10:58] <daveake> lol
[10:58] <HixWork> is that your government issue coat eroomde ;p
[10:58] <eroomde> my cover has been blown
[10:59] <HixWork> are you red fox?
[11:00] <Babs> hixwork - it all needs converting from sketchup to stl before printing anyway, the sketchup files will enable you to modify the designs, the stl to print them (there is an add-in to sketchup to enable you to do the file convert)
[11:01] <HixWork> oh ok STL i can read, just interested in having a nose through the design if that's ok?
[11:01] <costyn> HixWork: was that a Trigger happy TV reference? :)
[11:02] <HixWork> i believe that is where i saw it yes costyn
[11:02] <Babs> eroomde - don't know , never totted it up. i know the cage was 252g all in, but that included the carbon fibre.
[11:02] <Babs> So the cage is maybe 150g
[11:02] <costyn> HixWork: I miss that... I have a bunch of episodes downloaded somewhere
[11:03] <fsphil> aaah trigger happy
[11:03] <Babs> the gimbal probably 150g (although I could totally make it lighter if it wasn't supporting the gyros)
[11:03] <HixWork> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=t_vULnoDRfo
[11:03] <fsphil> the giant nokia phone in the library. classic
[11:04] <eroomde> i think we should shamelessly use the babs construction technique for the Elcipse-HAB
[11:04] <eroomde> Eclipse even
[11:04] <Babs> eroomde - was that twin balloon a sky anchor config? I am intrigued by trying that out once I dig my maths lecture notes out and work out the buoyancy calcs
[11:05] <fsphil> stability is one thing, aiming is a lot trickier
[11:06] <eroomde> Babs: yes that's the idea
[11:06] <Babs> what is eclipse? (the HAB project, rather than the sun/moon/earth alignment thing)
[11:06] <eroomde> there is a total solar eclipse in 2017
[11:06] <fsphil> they are one and the same
[11:06] <eroomde> over the midwest of the US
[11:06] <eroomde> we want to get a hab up
[11:06] <Babs> I totally want to do a sky anchor launch
[11:06] <Laurenceb> wtf is a sky anchor?
[11:06] <eroomde> i'd recommend it
[11:06] <eroomde> or you could try venting He too
[11:06] <HixWork> is that like a sky hook?
[11:07] <Babs> I just have to work out how to incorporate some 3D printing, carbon fibre and 2kg of polystyrene so I don't get take out of my comfort zone
[11:07] <eroomde> Babs: so the plan is to build a high quality camera platform (like babshab) and take it to the US
[11:07] <eroomde> to catch the eclipse
[11:07] <eroomde> see totallity and the shadow of the moon on the earth below
[11:07] <costyn> Babs: I thought you said you had to turn the HAB-level a little lower to stay on the missus' good side :)
[11:07] <Babs> where is it in the US and what date?
[11:08] <Babs> costyn - i'm at work, she can't see my laptop
[11:08] <Laurenceb> lol
[11:08] <costyn> Babs: ha! :)
[11:08] <Babs> I mean, I totally wear the trousers in the house and everything. really.
[11:08] <costyn> Babs: sure, just keep telling yourself that :)
[11:08] <fsphil> Babs: http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/SEgoogle2001/SE2017Aug21Tgoogle.html
[11:08] <eroomde> Babs: over the midwest, i think auguest 2017
[11:09] <eroomde> forget exactly
[11:09] <fsphil> yea
[11:09] <Babs> we have a good relationship. Whenever we have a disagreement, I put my point across, she puts her point across
[11:09] <eroomde> should be the hab photo op of the decade
[11:09] <Babs> and we agree that she was correct
[11:09] <eroomde> http://www.cusf.co.uk/images/smallrocket.jpg
[11:09] <eroomde> our first even rockoon
[11:09] <eroomde> launched out of a tube in the payload
[11:10] <eroomde> undergrad construction values
[11:10] <Laurenceb> someone needs to do spin stabilised
[11:10] <Laurenceb> its not very hard
[11:10] <Laurenceb> easier than the stabilised platform :P
[11:10] <eroomde> you should
[11:11] <Laurenceb> yeah yeah
[11:11] <eroomde> as you are the one signing its praises
[11:11] <Laurenceb> heh
[11:11] <eroomde> but anyway, we were thinking about actively stabilisation and pointing for eclipsehab
[11:11] <Laurenceb> eeek
[11:11] <Laurenceb> having said that...
[11:11] <Laurenceb> the new maxim gyro ic would help
[11:15] <eroomde> we need a star camera :)
[11:16] <HixWork> Laurenceb, what is this IC you speak of?
[11:17] <Laurenceb> http://www.maximintegrated.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7982
[11:17] <HixWork> ta muchly
[11:17] <Laurenceb> mad specs
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[11:18] <HixWork> do they do free smaples Maxim?
[11:18] <HixWork> *samples
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[11:18] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:19] <HixWork> sweet
[11:19] <mattbrejza> since when did maxim do MEMS :/
[11:19] <mattbrejza> also only $1.85 should you actually want to buy
[11:20] <HixWork> hmm that's at 1k units
[11:20] <mattbrejza> yea i realise, but its still cheaper than i was expecting
[11:20] <Laurenceb> shrug
[11:20] <Laurenceb> free samples
[11:20] <Laurenceb> order of mag cheaper than invensense
[11:20] <mattbrejza> its the same price as the ds18b20s
[11:20] <Laurenceb> better spec
[11:20] <Laurenceb> lower voltage
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[11:31] <HixWork> this is pretty helpful with regards to that http://goo.gl/akrbB
[11:32] <HixWork> id the sudden silence down to everyone else reading the spec sheet too :)
[11:32] <kokey> what are good stepper motors to use with the arduino?
[11:32] <Babs> Photographing the eclipse would be awesome. Even with a BABSHAB rate of lift you would be guaranteed to keep the thing dry if you launched in the middle of nebraska
[11:32] <kokey> I need fairly fine movement, for time lapse photography
[11:33] <kokey> and I'm thinking for astrophotography and perhaps pointing lasers at satellites
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[11:33] <HixWork> kokey Pololu seem popular
[11:33] <Babs> An active spin stabilisation should be easy from an engineering point of view.
[11:34] <HixWork> and http://www.hpcgears.com/ are relatively good for hardware kokey
[11:35] <Babs> Just work on a counter rotating principle, all the electronics on the top, camera on the bottom
[11:37] <Laurenceb> HixWork: nice site, thanks
[11:37] <HixWork> nps
[11:38] <kokey> HixWork: thanks
[11:38] <HixWork> nps
[11:38] <HixWork> can you tell I'm busy at work today :)
[11:39] <HixWork> kokey, two other must read links http://www.openmoco.org/ https://sites.google.com/site/picgoto/english-manual
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[12:04] <EchoLynx> Hello. I'm a college student whose looking to launch a weather balloon. We were considering using hydrogen as a lift gas, as it's much cheaper, which would mean more launches. But it's dangerous.
[12:04] <EchoLynx> Does anybody know how to use hydrogen safely?
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[12:05] <Darkside> read the ukhas wiki
[12:05] <Darkside> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:hydrogen
[12:05] <EchoLynx> Thank you.
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[12:20] <anerDev> hi guys ! =D
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[12:27] <fsphil> afternoon
[12:27] <EchoLynx> Good morning.
[12:28] <x-f> zulu felicitations
[12:28] <fsphil> lunch time here, gonna have an old classic. spagetti on toast
[12:29] <MGAerospace> hi to all, i can not seem to get in contact with RandomSolutions. I sent an email 8 days ago and 2 days ago but he did not answer. I should make an urgent order, does anyone know how can i contact him? he has a personal email?
[12:29] <MGAerospace> thanks
[12:29] <eroomde> thank you x-f
[12:29] <eroomde> MGAerospace: he's around, he was emiling the mailing list this morning
[12:30] <eroomde> check the ukhas mailing list (it's a oogle group)
[12:30] <eroomde> google*
[12:30] <rainy> something anything
[12:30] <rainy> @least :)
[12:31] <MGAerospace> what is your name on the mailing list?
[12:31] <rainy> (nice "work" btw)
[12:31] <eroomde> ?
[12:31] <eroomde> MGAerospace: Ed Moore
[12:32] <MGAerospace> thanks eroomde!
[12:32] <eroomde> it's just eroomde backwards
[12:32] <eroomde> it seemed clever when i was 11
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[12:32] <SpeedEvil> Encryption always does.
[12:33] <Brace> eroomde: it's pretty neat and you have the best surname going!
[12:33] <eroomde> is it?
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[12:33] Action: SpeedEvil wonders what fraction of programmers reinvented ciphers from the 1500s at 11.
[12:33] <Brace> eroomde: well I have the same surname, so yeah, it's the best one ;)
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> Indeed. I loved Patrick Moore in the man with the golden telescope.
[12:33] <rainy> the best thing 'bout ncryption wouldn't be the sleazebags who tried to pay others to break what they couldn't do would it
[12:34] <eroomde> Brace: wow. we must be related
[12:34] <rainy> actual ncryption iz kinda interesting lately eh
[12:34] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: and the guy in the tux who made those computer chips
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> I actually have a couple of novels by Patrick Moore.
[12:35] <Brace> eroomde: I rather doubt it
[12:35] <Brace> it's a pretty common surname
[12:35] <eroomde> i was being silly
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> Let's just say that the field of science fiction did not suffer a great loss when he went into TV.
[12:35] <Brace> ah
[12:35] <Brace> gdgd
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> They are _baaaad_
[12:35] <rainy> novels must be cool. everyone should write at least one
[12:36] <rainy> if having the actual impulse
[12:36] <rainy> why be pressured
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> I have written three novels.
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> *(serially on IRC)
[12:36] <rainy> sounds impressive
[12:36] <rainy> got an agent yet
[12:36] <rainy> for the whole 3
[12:36] <jonsowman> rainy: what are you on about?
[12:36] <eroomde> yes the channel logs show scary amounts of writing
[12:37] <SpeedEvil> I was meaning what I'd typed into IRC.
[12:37] <rainy> spdE i was meaning rod serling material
[12:37] <rainy> meaning is meaning
[12:37] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:37] <Babs> eroomde - http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00PMuafynqrFbv/Stage-Light-Disco-Light-EAGLE-2018-.jpg
[12:37] <Babs> (stay with me)
[12:38] <rainy> it's a stay'g
[12:38] <eroomde> i'm staying with you
[12:38] <eroomde> i see where you might be going
[12:38] Action: SpeedEvil imagines Babs gimballs.
[12:38] <rainy> gov`ploy`ees have that stay'n power
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> http://nofilmschool.com/2013/05/canon-50d-hacked-raw-video-magic-lantern/
[12:38] <rainy> until the empire collapses
[12:38] <rainy> for some reason
[12:38] <Babs> flip it upside down, and replicate the design but with a camera lens where the bulb is and the rest of it BABSHAB like in polystyrene and carbon fibre
[12:39] <eroomde> yes def
[12:39] Action: SpeedEvil tries to remember what else he was meaning to link.
[12:39] <eroomde> have a look at blastexperiment.info too
[12:39] <Babs> take the GPS co-ordinates of it in space (as in time and space, rather than the bit outside Earth) and a point on the centre of the eclipse
[12:40] <Babs> use it to generate a bearing and bingo (ish), couldn't you get it to track a constant point on the ground
[12:40] <eroomde> for sure
[12:40] <eroomde> or the moon!
[12:40] <Babs> I say centre of the eclipse, I mean centre of the area of shadow on the ground
[12:40] <eroomde> i'd love to have a moderately wide angle shot of the surface of the earth with the moon
[12:40] <eroomde> in totality
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20Kpps-HightSpeed-Galvo-System-laser-galvo-scanner-NEW-/220880557463?pt=UK_ConElec_LightingLEDsStrobes_RL&hash=item336d81d597
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: need clean air
[12:41] <eroomde> Babs: i did some work on a prototype thing a few years ago
[12:41] <eroomde> especially the designed of a reaction wheel for accurate pointing
[12:41] <eroomde> your truss way of doing things is completely perfect too
[12:41] <SpeedEvil> I do wonder what clear apature the above has.
[12:41] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Saunders_Space_Adventure
[12:41] <SpeedEvil> Probably not more than a smallish fraction of a degree.
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[12:41] <SpeedEvil> But certainly fast enough!!!
[12:42] <eroomde> hell yes
[12:42] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[12:43] <eroomde> i mean a degree or two a second is the sort of rate you probably want *if* you have a nice stable payload
[12:43] <SpeedEvil> I wish I'd gotten my laser ranger up and running.
[12:43] <eroomde> like babs's
[12:43] <SpeedEvil> You'd want a trimmer if you want to keep to pixel perfection though.
[12:43] <eroomde> and indeed you'd want to be able to hold it to small fractions of a degree for a second or so
[12:43] <SpeedEvil> Though just reducing spin rate to 1/min say - has lots of plusses.
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[12:43] <SpeedEvil> Which can be done passively.
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[12:46] <Babs> It has to be possible actively. I could build the thing, but not code it.
[12:46] <SpeedEvil> Oh - sure it's possible actively.
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[12:47] <SpeedEvil> You could get pretty good results purely analogly
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> with a gyro to stabilise
[12:47] <eroomde> pretty good
[12:47] <eroomde> but it's a bit faffular
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> and magnetometer
[12:47] <eroomde> i'd like a computer in the loop
[12:47] <eroomde> then we can easily change where it points
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> But gyro+mag +acel+ gps + kalmanny goodness is clearly ideal.
[12:48] <eroomde> and it's something i like
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[12:48] <eroomde> and relax
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> The silly hack would be an analog stabilised platform pointing at magnetic north say - and a pointed thing on top
[12:49] <eroomde> that sounds like a nice way of doing it in general
[12:49] <eroomde> like mageto-torques in smallsats
[12:49] <eroomde> but with a reaction wheel in the loop
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[13:03] <HixWork> Been thinking about gyro/imu/maget, it could be really effective for doing massive panormaic stitching for HAB images
[13:03] <HixWork> do a series at say 10deg yaw increments and then at -=10 pitch imjcrements
[13:03] <HixWork> -/+
[13:03] <HixWork> increments too
[13:04] <eroomde> yep
[13:04] <eroomde> and also if the exposure is long, eg at night, you can track the movement and use it for deconvolution algorithms
[13:04] <eroomde> which can reduce/remove motion blur
[13:05] <HixWork> would it be a massive code chore?
[13:05] <HixWork> bearing in mind my inability to code preoperly as yet
[13:05] <eroomde> not massive
[13:05] <HixWork> or spell it seems
[13:05] <eroomde> well, a lot of that stuff is fairly simple mode
[13:05] <eroomde> from non-tivial maths
[13:05] <eroomde> code*
[13:10] <HixWork> I've got brain fade. for a stabilised platform to be effective are you looking for the centre of gravity or the centre of mass
[13:10] <HixWork> as in, to reduce the effort to correct
[13:11] <eroomde> they are the same thing
[13:12] <eroomde> which basicaly involved keeping everything balanced in the off state
[13:12] <eroomde> in all the axes you want to actuate around
[13:13] <HixWork> couldn't remember completely, was probably thinking of centre of pressure
[13:14] <Babs> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcPzJ7P4kRc - I can't believe someone copied my idea from 13:37 today and made it already.
[13:15] <costyn> Babs: :D
[13:16] <eroomde> such is the internet
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[13:19] <Babs> pah. He doesn't use any blue polystyrene in his design. Clearly an amateur.
[13:19] <HixWork> http://www.coventor.com/solutions/gyros/
[13:19] <HixWork> http://vlab.ee.nus.edu.sg/~bmchen/papers/asme-gyro.pdf
[13:20] <HixWork> Babs, there are some really bad and really Good platforms out there. I think nailing the physical balance of the thing and having an effective control system could wipe the floor with most of them
[13:21] <eroomde> i don;t recommend that second paper
[13:22] <HixWork> it was more of a reminder in the thread tbh
[13:22] <eroomde> ah right
[13:22] <HixWork> haven't read it yet
[13:22] <eroomde> well, i just had a scan
[13:22] <HixWork> ok..
[13:22] <HixWork> and
[13:22] <eroomde> it's designing a robust controller
[13:22] <eroomde> so, modern control theory can be sort of split into 3 fields
[13:22] <eroomde> 1) Optimal Control
[13:23] <eroomde> 2) Robust Control
[13:23] <eroomde> 3) Adaptive Control
[13:23] <Laurenceb> 4) Adequate control
[13:23] <eroomde> Optimal control assumes a decent model of the plant (the thing you want to control) and lets you figure out the lowest energy (or lowest x where you specify x) way of getting your plant into some desired state
[13:24] <eroomde> eg 'pointing over there' or 'paper coming out of the mill with 2% moisture content' or whatever
[13:24] <eroomde> 2) Robust control is for people who like linear algebra
[13:24] <eroomde> it's basically a framework for formally proving your controller will be stable for a system whose model and inputs you can't pull know but that you can put bounds on
[13:25] <eroomde> so, 'i don't know exactly what the wind gusts will be but i know they'll be between 0 and 20 m/s' or whatever
[13:25] <eroomde> you can prove (using things like the H-infinity loop shaping technique in that paper) that your system will be stable and perform according some some criteria with that amount of uncertainty
[13:25] <eroomde> however, the performance is usually crap
[13:26] <eroomde> because it basically boils down to making a very 'loose' control that can accept a lot of uncertainty but who performance for any given situation is not really as good as that of a controller designed exactly for that situation
[13:26] <eroomde> adaptive (my fav) is the (3)rd type
[13:27] <eroomde> and that tries to learn the plant (the thing you're trying to control) as it goes along and constantly adapts the controller to give the best response
[13:27] <eroomde> eg a rocket flying into space has its dynamics change as it drains itself of fuel (its moments of inertia go down, the centre of gravity changes) and so an adaptive c ontroller would constantly try and figure this out and adapt
[13:28] <eroomde> 4) Adequate control as Laurenceb says
[13:28] <eroomde> i've heard before 'There's PID control and PhD control and usually only the first one works'
[13:29] <eroomde> so, that's sort of the landscape in control theory research atm. And I favour adaptive of the 3 techniques
[13:29] <eroomde> and that paper is about robust control, which is sort of useful if you're doing high stakes stuff and you just have to prove it'll behave in all these wierd circumstances
[13:29] <eroomde> eg a fighter jet going into stall or something
[13:30] <fsphil> we've been moore'd
[13:30] <eroomde> but we don;t really have that kinda bollocks to worry about. I suspect an optimal controller would be nice on a balloon-lofted pointy telescope/camera
[13:30] <eroomde> hmm yes that is a bit of a monologue
[13:31] <eroomde> sorry
[13:31] <Laurenceb> heh
[13:31] Action: Laurenceb is trying to do optimal control for a linear actuator pressing onto someones arm
[13:31] <Laurenceb> failing badly
[13:31] <Laurenceb> i think the model is a bit poor
[13:33] <eroomde> just train up a neural net or something
[13:33] <eroomde> (now you have two problems)
[13:35] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Microphone + servo on the decibel level
[13:35] <Laurenceb> heh?
[13:35] <SpeedEvil> Of the screams.
[13:35] <Laurenceb> lol
[13:36] <Laurenceb> my optimal linear actuator control works really well
[13:36] <Laurenceb> stupidly fast
[13:36] <Laurenceb> but the viscoelastic arm model can go unstable sometimes :(
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> This is a hardware of computer model?
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[13:37] <ibanezmatt13> I've attempted to incorporate the GPS reading and writing in my code. No idea if it's correct but it's all commented. https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5663226
[13:38] <Laurenceb> the "model" is running on f4discovery
[13:38] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/LABxIxC.png
[13:38] <Laurenceb> typical results when it goes unstable
[13:38] <Laurenceb> you can see the pressure oscillation
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[13:39] <HixWork> sorry eroomde somebody i work with appeared at me desk and wanted to talk work. then bollocks
[13:39] <HixWork> but thanks for the insights
[13:39] <HixWork> at least I know what to be cncentrating on now
[13:40] <eroomde> a lot of papers you might find in this field will be death-by-linear-algebra
[13:40] <eroomde> without being that insightful
[13:40] <HixWork> think I'll be aiming at a more high level overview initially :)
[13:41] <eroomde> mmm. well, kalman filters will blow your mind
[13:41] <HixWork> I did look based on your gps chat
[13:41] <eroomde> and they're the the standard choice for fusion mems inertial sensor data
[13:41] <HixWork> which made me get my maths textbook back out
[13:41] <eroomde> i hope you didn;t look at the wikipedia page
[13:41] Action: HixWork has forgotten more maths than he actually ever knew
[13:42] <HixWork> guilty, though i often do for the citations at the bottom rather than the articles
[13:42] <eroomde> yeah
[13:42] <eroomde> they present everything so opaquely and formally
[13:42] <eroomde> i could happily explain a kalman ilter to anyone who can do multiplication
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> Do they get a glazed look and start edging away after the first 30 seconds?
[13:43] <eroomde> so far
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> 'No, really, this is interesting!'
[13:43] <eroomde> but one day
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:43] <HixWork> this guy was pretty good, hence his high google ranking i think http://bilgin.esme.org/BitsBytes/KalmanFilterforDummies.aspx
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> I need to understand them at some point.
[13:44] <fsphil> it's bad when you don't quite follow a "for Dummies" guide
[13:44] <Laurenceb> im using one to fit my arm properties model in real time
[13:45] <HixWork> http://www.cs.unc.edu/~welch/media/pdf/kalman_intro.pdf and this had lots of references
[13:45] <Laurenceb> unfortunately it seems to doesnt model everything...
[13:45] <eroomde> that still starts with the linear algebra
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[13:45] <eroomde> that just makes it impossible
[13:45] <eroomde> much better to start with an example
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[13:48] <SpeedEvil> It feels the same way to me as starting out learning electronics by going into device physics.
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> I mean - yes - it's logical in a way.
[13:48] <eroomde> but not intuitive
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> But it doesn't actually help you one tiny tiny bit to learn how electronics might be interesting or let you gain any insight whatsorever
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> vs 'transistor is a little man with a voltmeter and a pot'
[13:49] <HixWork> https://dspace.ist.utl.pt/bitstream/2295/203912/1/Cap4-Kalman-Filter%20(export).pdf
[13:49] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: well, it's quite simple really
[13:49] <eroomde> are you happy that a gaussian multiplied by a gaussian gives you a gaussian?
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> Seems logical.
[13:50] <eroomde> with smaller variance
[13:50] <eroomde> you can do the maths and see that's the case
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> Umm...
[13:50] <eroomde> the variance of the new one is product over sum of the multiplicands
[13:50] <eroomde> like resisters in parallel
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> If you square a gassian it gets narrowerr, so I can see that
[13:50] <eroomde> yup
[13:50] <eroomde> so, the next thing is bayes rule
[13:50] <HixWork> this is more interesting than modelling SMD bits for a PCB in Catia
[13:51] <HixWork> i'm in
[13:51] <eroomde> p(a|b) = p(b|a)p(a)
[13:51] <eroomde> ignoring the normalising constant
[13:53] <eroomde> so lets say the question is 'what is the probability that i am here given the sensor readings'
[13:53] <eroomde> bayes rule says we can calulate that by saying 'what is the probability of the sensor readings given my position, multiplied by the probability of my position)
[13:53] <eroomde> '
[13:54] <eroomde> i.e. asking the question backwards, essentially
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[13:54] <eroomde> well, a kalman filter assumes your 'measurements' are gaussian (i.e. a mean and varience - eg an altimeter saying i think i am at 1000ft with a variance of 50ft'
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> So you can sort of visualise it as drawing an n-dimensional graph of probability, and the peak is your computed position?
[13:55] <eroomde> and then the probability of your position (the right hand p(a) term above) is your prior belief of where you are. eg 'i reckon i'm about 900ft'
[13:55] <anerDev> guys !
[13:55] <eroomde> bear with me for now
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> k
[13:56] <eroomde> so basically you start of with a beleif of your state
[13:56] <eroomde> 'i am here with this confidence' (a gaussian). it might be a low confidence. doesn't matter
[13:56] <anerDev> for the polystyrene box, wha't the recommended width of the side ?
[13:56] <eroomde> then you take a measurement 'my radar altimeter says 1000ft and i have a confidence of 50ft'
[13:57] <eroomde> both of these distributions are gaussian
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> anerDev: It depends on what's physically robust enough in genral. Will this be a payload with a camera?
[13:57] <eroomde> when you mutiply them together, you get another gaussian, with a new mean (the average of the input distribution means weighted by their varience) and a new varience
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> So you get a peak when you multiply at 940 feet or whatever
[13:57] <anerDev> SpeedEvil yes
[13:58] <eroomde> which is tighter (i.e. higher confidence) than the variences of the input distributions
[13:58] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: yes exactly
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> I think I see it.
[13:58] <eroomde> the new peak is your new mean
[13:58] <eroomde> so, now we have a new estimate of where we are
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> I guess the mind-bending bit of it is doing it in multiple dimensions at once.
[13:58] <eroomde> that becomes the 'prior' beleif p(a) of where you are the next time round in the loop when you take a new measurement
[13:59] <eroomde> so that's the 'measurement' step in a kalman filter
[13:59] <anerDev> I'm using this camera: http://dx.com/p/ultra-thin-card-style-rechargeable-2mp-digital-video-camera-camcorder-with-tf-slot-white-106628
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> anerDev: You can in principle compute it from the thermal conductivity of the box. Most payloads I've seen seem to have a wall thickness of the order of a fifth of the interior dimension.
[13:59] <eroomde> you have a prior guess where you are, you take a measurement of where you are, you combine the two to make a new guess where you are
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Seems too easy :)
[14:00] <eroomde> then there's the 'prediction' or 'update' step
[14:00] <eroomde> which is the other half
[14:00] <Laurenceb> becomes more complex when the measurements are in a different vector space
[14:00] <eroomde> let's say you're a robotic vacuum cleaner cleaning a 1-d room
[14:00] <eroomde> i.e. you are just cleaning along a line
[14:01] <anerDev> SpeedEvil for example 5cm is good ?
[14:01] <eroomde> you might say you think you are 3m from the wall with some confidence
[14:01] <eroomde> that might be because you used your ultrasound sensor to tell you were 3m from the wall +/- 20cm or whatever
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[14:01] <eroomde> now you want to move 1m
[14:02] <eroomde> you have an idea that when you turn your motors on you go at a certain speed
[14:02] <eroomde> but you're not sure exactly because of things you can't quite model like friction or battery voltage or whatever
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> anerDev: Thermal conductivity of polystyrene is 0.04W/m^2/K - a one meter cubed block will - at 25C delta - leak 1W. If you use 5cm thick, then you get 25W per meter - for 25C delta
[14:02] <eroomde> so you might say that you move on average 10cm/s with a varience of 0.5cm/s
[14:03] <eroomde> so you want to go 2m and you think your mean speed is 10cm/s, so you turn your motors on for 20s
[14:03] <eroomde> so now you *think* you have gone another 2m
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> anerDev: So a 5cm thick .15*.15*.15 box will leak 0.15 * 0.15 * 6 *25 - or 3.5W
[14:03] <eroomde> but actually it could be 1.9m or 2.1m or whatever
[14:04] <eroomde> and you *think* your starting point was 3m, but actually it might have been 2.8m or 3.2m or anything in between
[14:04] <anerDev> ok, but at 30km of altitude, the temperature inside the box can damage the components ?
[14:05] <eroomde> so actually where you are now could be anothing between (in this simple case) 2.8+1.9 = 4.7m from the wall, or 3.2+2.1 = 5.3m from the wall
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: You're basically just working out your old position and velocity and variances, summing it with the variances of your changes, and then that's your new baseline?
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[14:05] <SpeedEvil> anerDev: In general not.
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[14:06] Action: SpeedEvil rereads.
[14:06] <eroomde> so what you have done here mathematically is *convolve* your gaussian distribution on your prior position with your gaussian distribution on your moving forward, which is called 'state propagation' in the lierature
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> Seems to make a lot of sense.
[14:06] <eroomde> and when you *convolve* 2 gaussians you get another gaussian, but this time the varience is lower than th variences of the things you're convolution
[14:06] <anerDev> SpeedEvil Perfect ! I will make the box with 5cm of weight
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> anerDev: First step is to work out how many watts your payload dissipates
[14:07] <eroomde> so basically every time you move you add back in uncertainty to your estimate of where you are
[14:07] <eroomde> but then you do another measurement!
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> anerDev: If it's 1W - you're basically not going to get much heating
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[14:07] <HixWork> so in theory, every measurement should progressively gaqin accuracy over time
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> anerDev: Unless you have a very small box
[14:07] <eroomde> and that gives you a measurement as a guassian distribution, which you mutltiply with the distribution of where you think you are after the movement, and you end up with a new, tighter gaussian again, which is your new estimate of where you are
[14:08] <eroomde> HixWork: yes that's correct
[14:08] <anerDev> SpeedEvil my payload owrk at 12 V and 250 mA, the power is 12 * 0.250 = 3 W
[14:08] <eroomde> so the kalman filter is a big loop
[14:08] <eroomde> predict, measure, predict, measure, predict, measure
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> And the way even adding crappy sensors work is that even a crappy gaussian multiplied by the position estimate - improves it
[14:08] <eroomde> yes exactly
[14:08] <eroomde> and the more sensors the better
[14:08] <HixWork> and it doesn't need a metric or anything to quantify it
[14:08] <eroomde> well, you have to actually decise what your measurement noise and process noise is
[14:09] <eroomde> eg by looking at the datasheet of the sensor
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> And working out environmental effects. An accellerometer will produce less accurate height information at 3Mm than sea level
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> Funky.
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> (silly example - I'm mostly asleep at the moment)
[14:11] <eroomde> es, so anything that is a linear function of your state, you can use in a kalman filter as a measurement source
[14:11] <eroomde> so eg altitude
[14:11] <eroomde> you could use an accelerometer and a barometric pressure sensor
[14:11] <eroomde> the baro is obvious - it just relates pressure to alt by a simple model
[14:12] <eroomde> but the accelerometer can also be used because if you measure your up and down acceleration you can integrate it twice to get your up and down position
[14:12] <eroomde> but the kalman filter will, for free, track and elminiate the noise you get by integrating the accelerometer twice, by using the baro
[14:13] <cuddykid> anyone know cost of H2 cylinder from BOC?
[14:13] <cuddykid> more than £60?
[14:13] <HixWork> can you then use calibration to further improve the filter?
[14:13] <eroomde> yes
[14:13] <eroomde> well, the better you know your sensors the better
[14:13] <eroomde> and the better you know your model
[14:14] <HixWork> and the more that is calibrated the more accuracy in the whole system as the filter will learn from this
[14:14] <eroomde> so the basic principle of a kalman filter is the measure/update cycle by multiplying or convolving gaussians
[14:14] <eroomde> and they work because of the super awesome properties of gaussians that if you multiply or convolve them together you still get gaussians out
[14:15] <eroomde> whereas for other probability distributions you might get all kinds of wierd shit
[14:15] <eroomde> but a gussian is awesome because you can completely describe it with 2 numbers
[14:15] <eroomde> a mean and a varience
[14:15] <eroomde> in other words, where the peak is and how tight of loose the tails are
[14:16] <eroomde> tight or loose*
[14:16] <eroomde> that keeps the computational complexity of kalman filters right down, vs things like particle filters which are *exactly* the same predict/update idea
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: So my earlier 'plot a n-dimensional graph and find the peak' - is sort of correct - but the nice thing about gaussians is that you can skip this.
[14:16] <eroomde> but with arbitrary distributios which are some compicated you have to start sampling with 'particles'. but that's by the by
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> And go directly to the peak from the property of summed gaussians
[14:17] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: yes exactly
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:17] <eroomde> so where they become really powerful is for 2 and greater dimensional things
[14:17] <eroomde> this bit might be tricky witout diagrams but can give it a shot
[14:18] <HixWork> i was thinking that for 2 and 3D it could become a real headf*&^$
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:19] <eroomde> hmm
[14:19] <eroomde> actually
[14:19] <eroomde> this is completely perfect
[14:19] <eroomde> if you would, watch this
[14:19] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXJ5jrvDuEk&list=EC107FD47786234011
[14:20] <eroomde> watch from here to vid 60
[14:20] <HixWork> beaut, no ads too :)
[14:20] <eroomde> it's only like 15 minutes
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:20] <eroomde> this is where it gets really beautiful
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> Gah - real life interrupt.
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[14:25] <HixWork> the short sections are really annoying
[14:25] <HixWork> 0:14"
[14:25] <HixWork> pah
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[14:25] <eroomde> i think they're meant for an online course where you fill in the quizz
[14:26] <HixWork> I'll look up CS373
[14:26] <eroomde> i'd highly recommend
[14:26] <eroomde> you'll understand everything totally
[14:26] <eroomde> intuitively
[14:27] <HixWork> you recommended Udacity a few weeks back i remember
[14:27] <eroomde> yeah, i watched a few of these
[14:28] <eroomde> he seems to explain it well
[14:28] <eroomde> the insight from that section is that you can estimate things with a kalman filter that you can't directly measure
[14:29] <eroomde> eg you are only measuring your position
[14:29] <eroomde> but the kalman filter gives you an estimate of velocity from that
[14:29] <eroomde> in this case, in the literature, velocity is called a 'Hidden State'
[14:30] <eroomde> and things that measure hidden states as you progress through time (or some other dimension), of which the kalman filter is an example, are called 'Hidden Markov Models'
[14:30] <eroomde> and now we're into a happy world of sexy machine learning
[14:32] <HixWork> I like it when I can apply my mechanical brain to computing, it just makes things work better in my head
[14:32] <eroomde> but yes the udacity course would be really an excellent introduction to the theory behind an actively stabilised pointy hab payload
[14:32] <eroomde> both the inertial sensor fusion and the pointing control and everythin
[14:34] <HixWork> of course we could be missing out on a very neat trick here. VR/USM technologies used by Nikon / Canon use elements that adjust hellishly quickly as the mass being moved is much less than that of the camera and lens
[14:35] <HixWork> that could be a key to making things work more effectively?
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[14:36] <eroomde> i suspect so
[14:36] <eroomde> but i'm not quite sure how they work
[14:36] <eroomde> i think they're tuned for high freq wobble
[14:37] <eroomde> i suspect we'll want to be fighting slow steady drifts
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[14:38] <HixWork> I have an 80-200 2.8 VR if panning shots of cars it stabilizes the Y axis but still allows the X to have some movement
[14:39] <eroomde> well cleva
[14:39] <HixWork> innit
[14:39] <eroomde> i guess it is just trying to damp
[14:40] <eroomde> and wont be swayed by steady-state accelerations like panning
[14:40] <HixWork> seems to be
[14:40] <eroomde> i.e. PD controller rather than PI
[14:40] <HixWork> magnum?
[14:40] <eroomde> that's the one
[14:42] <HixWork> "normal mode tries to reduce lower angular velocity movements over a larger amplitude and timeframe"
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[14:48] <HixWork> "The frequency range of interest is about 0.3 Hz to 30 Hz Our muscles don't wiggle faster than 30 Hz, and external vibrations at higher frequencies are filtered by the combination of our bodies and the mass of the camera.
[14:49] <eroomde> nice
[14:51] <HixWork> let the camera na dthe human do the bits they dop andf just filter the rest. Interesting and smart
[14:51] <HixWork> often with devestating results, especially low light
[14:51] <eroomde> :)
[14:53] <eroomde> frequency response is the way, in control theory, we characterise a system we want to control
[14:54] <HixWork> so if someone flew an IMU we could get some really good data from it to spec the system?
[14:54] <eroomde> you can describe a system completely (in terms of how it will respond to any input) with something called a 'transfer function'
[14:55] <eroomde> which you can get by putting a sinwave in and measuring the sine wave you get out
[14:55] Action: HixWork now knows why he broke out 3A and 3D pins on his new board
[14:55] <eroomde> and the sinwave you get out will be of a different amplitude and a difference phase - i.e. it might be a bit delayed comapred to the input one
[14:56] <eroomde> and if you do this across a bunch of different frequencies, you get the transfer function
[14:56] <eroomde> so yes, an imu can measure the system response
[14:57] <HixWork> I was thinking more along the lines of flying one to collect data before doing the hardware just to get data as to what needed controlling
[14:57] <eroomde> so for example you might have something like a linear actuator
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[14:57] <eroomde> and you command it to move in and out according to a sine wave
[14:58] <eroomde> and at very low frequency sine waves it might be able to keep up preicsely
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[14:58] <eroomde> and as the sin wave input increases, it won't be able to keep up so much
[14:58] <eroomde> sine wave frequency input*
[14:58] <eroomde> eg you can't imagine a hydraluic ram keeping up with a 10hz sin wave input
[14:59] <eroomde> so the amplitude of the response drops off as you the frequency increases, usually, for most mechanical systems
[14:59] <eroomde> including humans holding cameras
[14:59] <HixWork> Not so sure - 7 post rigs for cars are very high Hz
[14:59] <HixWork> bu ti see where you are coming from
[14:59] <eroomde> sure, but they'd drop off into kHz or 10s of kHz presumably
[14:59] <HixWork> i would think
[15:00] <eroomde> that's the usual property of mechanical systems
[15:00] <eroomde> and that's usually why they can be made stable i they're not stable anyway
[15:00] <eroomde> at some point out output becomes smaller than the input
[15:01] <eroomde> and provided the phase delay is less than 180 degrees at that frequency, the system is stable
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[15:02] <eroomde> that bit is crucial because if the phase delay crosses the 180 degree point, the system basically starts doing the opposite of what you tell it, i.e. instead of negative feedback you get positive feedback
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[15:02] <eroomde> and if the gain of the system is greater than 1 at that point, this wrongess gets amplified and it goes unstable
[15:02] <eroomde> but if the gain is less than 1, this wrongness gets attenuated and it's stable
[15:03] <eroomde> so often we designed feedback controllers to change the shape of this response to put that gain-of-1 point where we want
[15:04] <eroomde> it's sort of difficult to describe over ascii
[15:04] <jonsowman> needs bode diagrams
[15:04] <eroomde> a lot of yes
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[15:06] <eroomde> HixWork: infact if you get a chnace to flick through that opamp book, this is all quite well explained there
[15:06] <eroomde> stability and bode plots and designing feedback to make things stable
[15:06] <HixWork> 4evry1
[15:06] <eroomde> yeah
[15:06] <HixWork> heh
[15:06] <HixWork> will do
[15:06] <eroomde> add it to the massive list
[15:06] <HixWork> that's a great freebie
[15:06] <eroomde> it is!
[15:07] <eroomde> it's really great
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[15:07] <HixWork> i wish someone would bring out an A4 epaper screen with a usb input
[15:07] <eroomde> yes
[15:07] <eroomde> that would be great
[15:08] <HixWork> nothing else, just a document reader
[15:08] <HixWork> you could have it with you for spec sheets etc
[15:08] <HixWork> and tutorials etc recipes, haynes manuals, you name it
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[15:32] <eroomde> test firing of a rocket just gave me a heart attack
[15:32] <eroomde> i totally zoned out of the warning siren
[15:32] <eroomde> and then a wall of sound shook the floor and my eardrums
[15:32] <eroomde> nearly went to brown alert
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[15:35] <HixWork> code brown
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[15:35] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[15:40] Nick change: Upu2 -> UpuWork
[15:40] <anerDev> My payload weight total is 950 g !
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[15:41] <eroomde> extraordinary
[15:48] <HixWork> is that a good or bad thing anerDev ?
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[16:20] <anerDev> HixWork I think yes, because yesterday wa 1,3 Kg ! lol
[16:20] <HixWork> ah, that is good then :D
[16:33] <anerDev> oh yeah !
[16:34] <anerDev> I will buy Hwoyee 1000 and Sphrachute 32 in
[16:34] <anerDev> burst at 30 km
[16:46] Jess-- (51a81682@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.168.22.130) joined #highaltitude.
[16:47] <Jess--> Upu are you around at all
[16:49] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[16:51] <Jess--> Daveake are you around?
[16:51] <daveake> I am round yes
[16:52] <Jess--> not sure if you can help, where can I get hold of a helium fill pipe at short notice?
[16:52] <daveake> B&Q
[16:53] <daveake> Just 40mm waste pipe, expanding foam filler, garden hose, duct tape
[16:53] <eroomde> useful tip with questions: ask them generally
[16:53] <eroomde> especially if they're simple
[16:53] <Jess--> what about tank fitting end
[16:53] <daveake> eroomde: do you have any advice about asking questions? :p
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[16:53] <eroomde> yes
[16:53] <nigelvh_> Ask them?
[16:53] <daveake> depends on the helium valve
[16:53] <eroomde> but we might get stuck in a recursion
[16:54] <daveake> but duct tape is good :)
[16:54] <chrisstubbs> Jess--, balloonhelium will provide you with a filler regulator
[16:54] <chrisstubbs> then you stick the garden hose over the end of that and wrap it in tape
[16:54] <jshriver> greetings
[16:55] <Babs> Are you related to Pam?
[16:55] <jshriver> when is the best time to chat here? Sorry been idling a day or two ago
[16:55] <nigelvh_> UK Daytime
[16:55] Hix (~Hix@host86-130-166-23.range86-130.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[16:55] <nigelvh_> Though there's a few of us who live in UHMEHRIKUH!
[16:55] <eroomde> but we require they announce their citizenship just like nigelvh_ did
[16:56] <Babs> announce or renounce eroomde?
[16:56] <nigelvh_> We're second class citizens here.
[16:56] <Hix> renounce :P
[16:56] <Hix> anyone got any idea what the maximum loggin rate to SD would be with a 328@8MHz?
[16:57] <nigelvh_> A speed.
[16:57] <chrisstubbs> Babs, who was that question directed at?
[16:57] <nigelvh_> In reality it's going to be pretty slow.
[16:57] <Hiena> Hix: 10-12K/s
[16:57] <nigelvh_> You're using the SD card in SPI mode which is a LOT slower than the "SD" protocol.
[16:57] <Babs> chrisstubbs, Pam?
[16:57] <chrisstubbs> yeah
[16:57] <eroomde> or lionel
[16:58] <Jess--> cheers for the help, stuck in the middle on the phone with the person who has the tank at the same time
[16:58] <Hiena> Debends on the FAT an the SPI implementation.
[16:58] <Babs> eroomde's got it
[16:58] <Hiena> -b+p
[16:58] <Hix> is that Kb or KB?
[16:58] <Hiena> Byte.
[16:58] <Babs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Shriver - I've never met another Shriver, personally or virtually
[16:59] <Babs> (I've never met Pam Shriver for that matter)
[16:59] <eroomde> the author of We Need to talk about Kevin was Lionel
[16:59] <chrisstubbs> Ahh, coincidentally my mum is called Pam haha
[16:59] <chrisstubbs> tis why i asked
[17:00] <eroomde> I saw a popular science book recently called 'We Need to talk about Kelvin'
[17:00] <Babs> Is your Mom Pam Shriver chris
[17:00] <chrisstubbs> Dont think so
[17:00] <Hix> Would it be possible to get a limited stream at 200Hz?
[17:00] <Babs> I am staying away from Mom jokes
[17:00] <eroomde> Hix: you mean write at 200 bits/s?
[17:00] <Babs> The last time I did one on here Willdude123 ripped me a new one. And deservedly so.
[17:01] <Hiena> Hix, it could be. You could get higher speed, if you drop the FAT and write the card directly.
[17:01] <Hix> eroomde: thinking about it, it would have to be more, @200Hz
[17:02] <eroomde> well 200Hz isn't a data rate so who can say?
[17:02] <eroomde> and will definitely depend on file system or not and other oveheads as hiene says
[17:03] <Hix> hmm sample rate i meant
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[17:04] <eroomde> that's not really anything to do with an sd card though? I'm confused
[17:04] <Hix> the ATMega I thought would be the limiting factor
[17:04] <eroomde> to sampling something at 200Hz?
[17:04] <Hix> yes
[17:05] <eroomde> like an adc?
[17:05] <Hiena> Depends on the format. 32 bit binary sample means 2.5kS/s at 10kB/s
[17:05] <Hix> a linear or rotary pot so yes
[17:05] <eroomde> i think you'd be fine on a basic atmega well up into 100ksps
[17:05] <eroomde> 200hz is nowt
[17:06] <Hix> oh nice
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[17:07] <Hiena> If you want some fancy human readable format with timestamp and so on, you should calculate the sample frame size at first.
[17:07] <eroomde> yes indeed
[17:07] <Hix> think it would be time since start [millis?] and output from 4 pots
[17:09] <Hiena> For 4 sensor telemetry i usually ends up around 64byte/sample, due i likes the human readable streams.
[17:10] <Hix> So thats about 12-13K/s
[17:11] <Hix> which was just over what was quoted
[17:11] <eroomde> you might be able to get a bit more through
[17:11] <Hix> how could i find out quickly?
[17:11] anerDev (anerDev@host119-55-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) left #highaltitude ("Bye !").
[17:11] <eroomde> for ref, we get about 2 MBit/s through an atmega-based datalogger at work
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[17:12] <Hix> write the datsa manually in notpad++ and save it?
[17:12] <eroomde> that's with a tcp/ip stack running on it
[17:13] <Hiena> Yup. And the TCP/ip has almost same overhead as the FAT.
[17:13] <eroomde> yu'd have to test it basically
[17:13] <eroomde> sd cards need a bit of care and feeding
[17:13] <eroomde> there are lots of days of talking to them and some are crap from a performance point of view
[17:13] <Hix> so i just types a sample string and saved it as text and i came out at 31Bytes
[17:14] <Hix> *typed
[17:16] <Hiena> Hix: some hint for consideration: Use zero padded format for every datas. It will give fixes width samples, and much easier to spot the hiccups later.
[17:16] <Hix> ok, just trying to work out if it would work first. cheers for the advice though.
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[17:25] <Hix> is CF better for logging?
[17:25] <Hix> for better read more reliable/easier
[17:26] <eroomde> it might be instructive to look at the CF interface
[17:26] <eroomde> then count the number of IO pins on your atmega :)
[17:26] <Hix> hmm point
[17:26] <Hix> arse
[17:26] <eroomde> but yes it's a bit less staeful and wierd
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> Remembering half the pins are ground.
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> (IIRC)
[17:26] <Hix> got a stack of high rate CF
[17:27] <eroomde> it's just IDE
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[17:27] <Hix> too much then
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> IIRC there was an '8 bit' mode - which might in principle be supported
[17:28] <eroomde> yes possiblah
[17:28] <eroomde> if it's an issue just look at SPI flash chips
[17:28] <eroomde> you can get them up to 64MB or whateveryou want really
[17:28] <Hix> was considering some kind of chip in SPI
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[17:51] <SpeedEvil> Or even emmc :)
[17:59] <Hix> I think SD is probably best, thought that otherwise I'd have to make it speak to the computer. At least a card can be removed and read
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[18:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> ping all :-)
[18:30] <Hix> pong SP9UOB-Tom
[18:30] <number10> hi
[18:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> hix: could You approve flight doc?
[18:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> i want to go to the launch site
[18:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> and make my Pico floating :-)
[18:31] <Hix> not me I'm afraid - no rights [or knowledge]
[18:31] <number10> I cant do that tom
[18:31] <Hix> #habhub
[18:31] <number10> when is the launch?
[18:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> 10 minutes ago ;-)
[18:32] <Hix> go there SP9UOB-Tom
[18:32] <SP9UOB-Tom> im there, but noone is answering
[18:32] <number10> does it have the same telemetry as a previous flight?
[18:32] <Hix> hmm
[18:32] <SP9UOB-Tom> yes
[18:33] <Hix> ping jcoxon
[18:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> ok, i've created doc: eea7bee2205ef34be8f0c934edbe740e
[18:33] <jcoxon> hey
[18:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> hi jcoxon, approve please :-)
[18:34] <jcoxon> i can't unfortunately
[18:34] <jcoxon> lets do some summoning
[18:34] <jcoxon> ping DanielRichman
[18:34] <SP9UOB-Tom> ok, im going to the launchsite
[18:35] <number10> where did you go on holiday jcoxon ?
[18:36] <jcoxon> Sierra Leone
[18:37] <jcoxon> shall we clear the tracker for SP9UOB-Tom
[18:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> yes please
[18:37] <number10> thats an unusual destination for hols
[18:37] <jcoxon> done
[18:37] <jcoxon> http://www.sierraleonemarathon.com/
[18:38] <jcoxon> i was on the medical race tream
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[18:38] <SP9UOB-Tom> ok, im going to the launch site
[18:38] <number10> ah a holiday++
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[18:39] <jcoxon> a working holiday
[18:39] <fsphil> holiday--?
[18:39] <number10> yes, I could have described it as a ---
[18:39] <fsphil> could go either way
[18:39] <jcoxon> i'll upload some pics
[18:40] <Hix> is that like marathon des sables jcoxon ?
[18:40] <jcoxon> well its a standard marathon
[18:40] <Hix> ok
[18:40] <jcoxon> while des sables is an ultramarathon
[18:40] <jcoxon> but the conditions in sierra leone are tough
[18:40] <Hix> just a little
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> contract as many tropical diseases as you can.
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> most wins
[18:40] <jcoxon> hehe
[18:42] <jcoxon> we should make a list of people who can authorise docs
[18:42] <Laurenceb__> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilb2XH-p1PY
[18:42] <Laurenceb__> pity about the "music"
[18:43] <number10> probably should be a few more responsible people able to do it (I discount myself)
[18:45] <anerDev> hey guys, watch my project page ! http://www.anerdev.net/project/assm/
[18:45] <anerDev> is ggood ?
[18:47] <number10> ballons do not go into space anerDev - so the name of the project should be changed
[18:48] <Laurenceb__> teehee
[18:48] <anerDev> I know
[18:48] <number10> balloons
[18:48] <number10> so maybe not so good?
[18:49] <arko> oh god why would you use that "music"
[18:49] <Laurenceb__> dat dubstep remix
[18:49] <number10> its an interesting block diagram woithout any interconnections.. sort of random pictures
[18:49] <anerDev> I will change in sky ! =D
[18:50] <Laurenceb__> teeheee
[18:50] <Laurenceb__> "ASS"
[18:52] <chrisstubbs> Is the SIM908 confirmed to work at high altitude?
[18:52] <arko> not really
[18:52] <arko> we used that for our hab
[18:52] <arko> you're out of cell reception anyway
[18:53] <arko> worked on the way down
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[18:53] <arko> http://wiki.032.la/nsl/HABEX2#Tracking_Radio_Bravo
[18:53] <Hix> chrisstubbs: are you buying GSM modules?
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[18:54] <chrisstubbs> nope, just looking at anerDev's site
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[18:54] <Hix> ah
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[19:03] <Hix> daveake: have you got approval rights for flight docs
[19:04] <daveake> nope
[19:04] <Hix> drat
[19:05] <jcoxon> does Upu?
[19:05] <Hix> think so
[19:05] <daveake> don't think so
[19:05] <Hix> double drat
[19:05] <jcoxon> I got bored of labeling photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/sets/72157633790755557/)
[19:05] <Hix> what about eroomde ?
[19:06] <Upu> I don't have approval rights no
[19:06] <daveake> don't think so
[19:06] <Upu> and in fairness letting me anywhere near the database isn't a good idea
[19:06] <Hix> heh
[19:06] <number10> i think its just cusf that have..
[19:06] <Hix> I agree jcoxon there should be a list
[19:06] <Hix> even if it is just on the #habhub header textr?
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[19:07] <Hix> hmm time to go time. bye peeps
[19:08] <craag> jcoxon: Look fantastic!
[19:08] <craag> *Looks
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[19:08] <number10> looks like you ha some chillout time jcoxon - not just a bussmans holiday
[19:08] <jcoxon> yeah we did 2 days on teh beach
[19:09] <jcoxon> and then 5 days up with the marathon
[19:09] <jcoxon> a lot of work (doesn't really suit photos) hehe
[19:09] <Upu> looks amazing
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[19:11] <jcoxon> doc is approved
[19:11] <jcoxon> thanks priyesh
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[19:32] <jcoxon> yay sp9uob on the map
[19:33] <Upu> launching tonight ?
[19:34] <jcoxon> apparently
[19:35] <Upu> cool
[19:35] <Upu> he's a launching machine
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[19:39] <jcoxon> Upu he is going for float
[19:39] <Upu> super good man
[19:39] <Upu> latex or foil ?
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[19:41] <jcoxon> foil
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[19:49] <jcoxon> launch
[19:49] <craag> up 0.3 m/s ascent
[19:49] <jcoxon> thats slow
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[19:50] <craag> Hopefully it isn't cloudy! Water vapour might stop it.
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[19:50] <x-f> his third pico
[19:51] <x-f> you taught him to have a low ascent rate :)
[19:51] <HixPad> Is this natrium42++?
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[19:52] <jcoxon> hope no inversion layers
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[19:54] <craag> we'll see :)
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[19:59] <jcoxon> so slow
[19:59] <craag> wow 0.2
[20:02] <Upu> up is up
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[20:09] <jcoxon> indeed
[20:09] <jcoxon> this should float
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[20:12] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening! :-)
[20:13] <SP9UOB-Tom> well warm stream over the lake
[20:14] <jcoxon> yay SP9UOB-Tom
[20:15] <eroomde> what is the rough heading at say 4-5km float?
[20:16] <Upu> I'll run it 1 sec
[20:16] <jcoxon> running hysplit
[20:16] <jcoxon> ...
[20:17] <anerDev> Upu, mfa298, SpeedEvil, fsphil, chrisstubbs, BrainDamage, eroomde, HixWork, x-f, daveake
[20:17] <eroomde> what
[20:17] <Laurenceb__> ...
[20:17] <jcoxon> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hysplitout/101865_trj001.gif
[20:17] <anerDev> can you give me your website ? I'm writing your names into my website for the thanks !
[20:17] <Upu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hysplitout/131866_trj001.gif
[20:17] <eroomde> interesting flight paths
[20:18] <Upu> PM'd anerDev
[20:18] <eroomde> anerDev: i don;t have a website i'm afriad! though it used to be cusf.co.uk
[20:18] <eroomde> i'm sure they'd appreciate a link :)
[20:18] <anerDev> =D
[20:18] <anerDev> mfa298, SpeedEvil, fsphil, chrisstubbs, BrainDamage, HixWork, x-f,
[20:18] <anerDev> ?
[20:19] <Upu> don't keep doing that though pls anerDev
[20:19] <anerDev> ook
[20:19] <Upu> as it causes peoples clients to blink and is annoying :)
[20:19] <eroomde> let's hope it floats a bit higher so it doesn;t go into the bit of france that F6AGV-superman can;t cover
[20:20] <anerDev> done: http://www.anerdev.net/project/assm/
[20:20] <Upu> did you do anything special on this fill SP9UOB-Tom ? Looks perfect
[20:21] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: filled veeeery carefully :-)
[20:21] <anerDev> one moment, I'm writing
[20:21] <Upu> single cell 1.8v ?
[20:21] <SP9UOB-Tom> it was ascending very slowly
[20:21] <SP9UOB-Tom> upu yes AA
[20:21] <Upu> 45 hours ?
[20:21] <SP9UOB-Tom> more than 50
[20:22] <SP9UOB-Tom> pics are awesome :-)
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[20:25] <KT5TK_QRL> What frequency is SP9UOB?
[20:25] <SP9UOB-Tom> KT5TK_QRL: 436.595 MHz
[20:25] <SP9UOB-Tom> KT5TK_QRL: 437.595 MHz
[20:25] <SP9UOB-Tom> sorry
[20:27] <KT5TK_QRL> I'll have to change thefreq of my SDR then: http://dl4mdw.no-ip.org:8901/
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[20:27] <KT5TK_QRL> Let me check if I can do this remotely
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[20:33] <anerDev> good night guys
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[20:34] <fsphil> oh nice ascent
[20:35] <SP9UOB-Tom> fsphil: thank You ;-)
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[20:40] <Babs_> hmmmmm. Perhaps the CAA had a point when they made me launch at 0700 because my launch location was a heavy air traffic area http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/8882946838/
[20:43] <fsphil> was that taken after launch?
[20:44] <KT5TK_QRL> SP9UOB: OK, got my WebSDR in Berlin QSY: http://dl4mdw.no-ip.org:8901 (switch to 70 cm). No signal yet.
[20:44] <Laurenceb__> http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/8845053028/in/photostream/
[20:44] <Laurenceb__> wow that the most stable altitude shot ive seen
[20:44] <Laurenceb__> hard to see its not a photo at first
[20:45] <fsphil> would the weight of it have helped?
[20:45] <SP9UOB-Tom> KT5TK_QRL: thanks
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[20:46] <Upu> First AVA was very stable but not through design : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8cOzkUeso4&list=UUGkq3Q2JQhN_ChjcPPwAW3A&index=54
[20:47] <Upu> but subsequent decent is better on Babs
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[20:48] <Laurenceb__> interesting that its hard to see the burst
[20:49] <Laurenceb__> just sme fragments of balloon, then several second befor emuch happens
[20:49] <Laurenceb__> encouraging for rockoon launch
[20:49] <Laurenceb__> just detect the zero G
[20:50] <Upu> definetely worked
[20:51] <Upu> definitely even
[20:53] <Laurenceb__> yeah about 2 seconds of not much after the balloon pops
[20:53] <KT5TK_QRL> Preparations for our balloon launch next Saturday: http://kt5tk.wordpress.com
[20:53] <Laurenceb__> im guessing the buffeting is mostly the balloon neck flying about as well
[20:54] <Laurenceb__> - for the next few seconds after that
[20:54] <Upu> looks interesting KT5TK
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[20:57] Nick change: bertrik_ -> bertrik
[20:58] <Laurenceb__> http://kt5tk.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/dscn2659.jpg
[20:58] <Laurenceb__> like it
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[21:00] <KT5TK_QRL> If that transverter works fine I plan to make a special PCB for it.
[21:04] <Upu> oh a habamp
[21:04] <Upu> using that in the air KT5TK ?
[21:04] <Upu> I made a new one : http://i.imgur.com/FvWS6Sn.jpg
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[21:06] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes, that's literally a habamp now
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[21:06] <Upu> so you're flying one ?
[21:06] <KT5TK_QRL> yes
[21:06] <Upu> awesome :)
[21:07] <Upu> ping Darkside Thomas is flying a HABAmp :)
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[21:07] <Upu> its something we've discussed a few times but never got round to doing
[21:07] <arko> WOAH
[21:08] <arko> want habamp
[21:08] <arko> it'd be nice to have a 144mhz one too
[21:08] Action: arko googles saw filters
[21:09] <KT5TK_QRL> The biggest problem is to get a SAW that's pin compatible.
[21:09] <KT5TK_QRL> I've looked for that, but I didn't find one
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[21:10] <KT5TK_QRL> So you really need a slightly different PCB for 2m
[21:10] <ibanezmatt13> Evening :) Are there any launches planned for the weekend?
[21:10] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes, in Texas
[21:10] <Upu> ibanezmatt13 there is one up right now
[21:10] <Upu> in Poland
[21:11] <ibanezmatt13> Wow, that's good. Is there an online tracking website where I can follow its progress?
[21:11] <Upu> I can get a 2 meter SAW but its not quite on 144
[21:11] <Upu> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[21:11] <ibanezmatt13> Thanks :) Are there any in the UK this weekend, I should have my antenna set up ready for tracking :)
[21:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Daniels "[UKHAS] Balloon flight pricing"
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[21:13] <jcoxon> float?
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[21:13] <jcoxon> if so its an awesome float altitude
[21:14] <Upu> looks that way
[21:14] <Upu> and yes wow how perfect is that
[21:14] <Upu> and its dark already so not going to drop
[21:14] <Upu> and head room for climb in the morning
[21:15] <eroomde> very nice
[21:15] <eroomde> get the pizzas ordered
[21:15] <jcoxon> however?
[21:15] <jcoxon> off we go
[21:15] <Upu> haha
[21:15] <eroomde> lol
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[21:15] <Upu> teasing
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[21:17] <arko> oh wow
[21:17] <arko> that just launched, nice
[21:17] <arko> nighttime launch though?
[21:17] <arko> whats the advantage of that?
[21:17] <eroomde> don't have to wake up early for launch
[21:17] <jcoxon> low initial float i guess
[21:17] <jcoxon> gives you room for further climb
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[21:18] <Laurenceb__> s/climb/burst
[21:18] <Laurenceb__> if you are unlucky
[21:19] <arko> neat
[21:20] <cuddykid> hi arko
[21:20] <cuddykid> pm
[21:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> Oh its climbing again
[21:21] <arko> kkool
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[21:25] <x-f> and floating again
[21:25] <arko> wow
[21:25] <arko> this is like the mavrick payload
[21:25] <arko> flying low and about to buzz the tower
[21:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> Di p? or descent ?
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[21:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> Dip!
[21:28] <SP9UOB-Tom> This will be a loooong night
[21:28] <SP9UOB-Tom> :-)
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[21:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> What are the details Tom
[21:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> Geoff-G8DHE: pico payload of 30 grams 1 AA energizer lithium/ Qualatex silver
[21:31] <arko> oh wow
[21:31] <arko> whats the power?
[21:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> it was calm at launch
[21:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> arko: +11 dbM
[21:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> dBm
[21:31] <arko> oh wow
[21:31] <arko> nice
[21:31] <arko> good luck man!
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[21:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> Looks good
[21:32] <arko> hopes for a good floater :P
[21:32] <KT5TK_QRL> Is it a RFM22?
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[21:33] <Upu> oh btw
[21:33] <arko> 1.8v is awesome
[21:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> KT5TK_QRL: yes
[21:33] <Upu> HopeRF have confirmed the crystal on the RFM22B is only rated to -20'C
[21:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> 1.8V
[21:33] <Upu> so I've started switched them out from ones rated to -40
[21:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> pic18LF26K22 and MCP1640
[21:33] <arko> btw, i think thats what killed my hab Upu
[21:33] <Upu> and two of mine
[21:33] <arko> i put an external 8Mhz crystal
[21:33] <arko> for the arduino
[21:33] <Upu> they are fine on up down
[21:33] <arko> yeah
[21:34] <Upu> but long duration the cold kills them
[21:34] <arko> looked at the digikey order, found that it was rated for -20C
[21:34] <Upu> first thing I do when selecting components is check the temp
[21:34] <arko> yeah, i thought it had it down
[21:35] <arko> stupid me didnt review the part and went with the tabs i had
[21:35] <arko> o well
[21:35] <arko> at least it came to life and will get recovered this weekend
[21:35] <arko> next round im using the internal clk
[21:36] <nigelvh__> Internal clock is about worthless dude.
[21:36] <SP9UOB-Tom> arko: PICs have failsafe clock monitor
[21:36] <arko> damn it
[21:37] <arko> i was afraid of that
[21:37] <KT5TK_QRL> Upu: I have a PecanPico3 working for you on 433 MHz. I still have problems with too much deviation for AFSK. Will look into RTTY on Sunday after our launch
[21:37] <arko> oh that would have been nice, a fail safe
[21:37] <nigelvh__> It's inaccurate enough to cause problems reading serial at 9600 baud.
[21:37] <Upu> oh awesome KT5TK I've been looking at a VCTCXO
[21:37] <Upu> annoyingly few at 1.8v
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[21:38] <KT5TK_QRL> I think a regular XO will be sufficient, but then you can't do APRS at the same time
[21:38] <Upu> probably going to be separate
[21:38] <Upu> initially anyway
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[21:39] <KT5TK_QRL> At least I had it working dual band (unintentionally) already
[21:39] <Upu> nice :)
[21:40] <Upu> LPF ? :)
[21:40] <nigelvh__> The filters would need some work there.
[21:40] <arko> SP9UOB-Tom: estimate life time?
[21:40] <Upu> 50 hours arko
[21:40] <Upu> he's euro :)
[21:40] <KT5TK_QRL> I forgot to switch the geofencing freq, so it transmitted on 144.390 MHz. With the 70cm LPF
[21:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> arko: more than 50 hrs
[21:41] <Upu> Does anyone know of an ICSP header for AVR i.e 2x3 that has pogo pins in it ?
[21:41] <arko> nice!
[21:41] <nigelvh__> Not off hand upu
[21:41] <Upu> might have to make one
[21:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: im thinking about edge connector, cheap and easy :-)
[21:41] <nigelvh__> would be a good tool.
[21:41] <Upu> yeah
[21:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> and has no weight
[21:42] <Upu> http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/05/24/adding-pogo-pins-to-your-usbtinyisp/
[21:42] <SP9UOB-Tom> at all
[21:42] <Upu> or that
[21:42] <nigelvh__> I just have pins in my programmer, and stick it in the ICSP holes.
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> hawt
[21:42] <Upu> that looks like my salvation
[21:42] <Upu> I have some pogo pins at work I'll see if they fit
[21:45] <KT5TK_QRL> http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/05/24/adding-pogo-pins-to-your-usbtinyisp/
[21:45] <Upu> surprised no one make ones
[21:46] <arko> love pogo pins
[21:47] Action: SpeedEvil ARGHZ.
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> I'm in the frustrating position of having 20 pogo pins, and needing 4.
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> The problem is that the EPE of the location of the pins is around 5m.
[21:48] <Upu> http://www.tag-connect.com/sites/default/files/node_images/TC2030-IDC-NL.jpg
[21:49] <arko> http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6098/6287668921_e74282303a_z.jpg
[21:49] <arko> thats what i use
[21:49] <arko> pretty handy
[21:49] <arko> sharp as hell though
[21:50] <SP9UOB-Tom> well it draws the stairs
[21:53] <SP9UOB-Tom> i forgot somethong
[21:53] <SP9UOB-Tom> i forgot something
[21:54] <SP9UOB-Tom> is tgere way to strech time in flight document? I hust picked launch day...
[21:54] <SP9UOB-Tom> is there way to strech time in flight document? I hust picked launch day...
[21:54] <SP9UOB-Tom> is there way to strech time in flight document? I just picked launch day...
[21:55] <Upu> hehe 1 sec
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[21:58] <Upu> being done now SP9UOB-Tom
[21:58] <Upu> [22:58] <priyesh> Upu: extended until friday @ 23:59:59
[21:59] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: thanks a lot
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[22:02] <Upu> well good luck SP9UOB-Tom calling it a night, fingers crossed its still up in the morning :)
[22:03] <Laurenceb__> you need to move relativistically
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[22:03] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: thanks :-)
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[22:05] <Babs_> ping upu
[22:06] <Upu> almost
[22:06] <Upu> hey Babs_ was just heading off
[22:07] <Upu> hey SP9UOB-Tom this is just suspended normally under the neck nothing fancy like we discussed ?
[22:07] <Jess--> I remember other members here have had problems with 808 cameras (the keyfob ones) causing gps problems.. what was the nature of the problems since I am testing one here at the min and seeing no issues with the camera 10mm from the gps antenna
[22:07] <Babs_> is the background to this page your photo http://www.joshingtalk.com/products-services ?
[22:08] <arko> holding 3688 pretty well
[22:08] <Upu> sadly yes Babs_
[22:08] <Upu> long story :)
[22:08] <Babs_> too late for a long story. I bet you're happy that he has copyright on it though ;-)
[22:09] <Laurenceb__> haha
[22:09] <Upu> where is that ?
[22:09] <Laurenceb__> "not sure if troll"
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[22:10] <Laurenceb__> actually no
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[22:10] <Laurenceb__> im having a hard time convincing myself that isn't a troll site
[22:10] <Upu> sadly he's not
[22:11] <Babs_> All content copyright of www.joshingtalk.com - its at the bottom of the page.
[22:11] <Laurenceb__> well its def in self parody territory
[22:11] <Upu> lol
[22:11] <Babs_> you can never print your own photo which he stole again
[22:11] <Upu> he's such a knob
[22:12] <Babs_> He has an agent. Pretty cool.
[22:12] <Upu> can't even be bothered
[22:12] <Babs_> Although I have visions of Ricky Gervais's agent in the Office: Christmas Specials
[22:13] <Babs_> 'Success should no longer truthfully be recognised by how much money one has, rather by how much positive change one has brought to the world.' - Josh Taylor 2012
[22:13] <arko> he's literally the second coming of richard branson from what i can tell
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[22:13] <arko> he must really be a revolutionary to have a quote of his own
[22:13] <Babs_> This stuff is brilliant. I've paused the latest series of Mad Men to review it all.
[22:13] <Upu> lol
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[22:14] <Upu> anyway bed time for me night all
[22:14] <ibanezmatt13> 10m!
[22:14] <arko> nice Upu
[22:14] <Upu> Babs_ - PM - enjoy !
[22:14] <arko> night8
[22:14] <Babs_> night upu
[22:14] <ibanezmatt13> Good night
[22:14] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: night
[22:14] <Babs_> Josh has given talks to numerous audiences of all sizes from school children as young as 5 years old
[22:14] <Babs_> I'm not sure even a 5 year old would be taken in by it
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[22:15] <eroomde> can i please be guessing wrong as to whom you're talking about
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[22:15] <arko> lets change the subject
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[22:15] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lIW6RsUt-s - reminds me of the discussion
[22:16] <ibanezmatt13> SP9UOB-Tom: What microcontroller are you using?
[22:17] <SP9UOB-Tom> ibanezmatt13:pic18LF26K22
[22:17] <SP9UOB-Tom> anyway i just love PICs :-)
[22:17] <ibanezmatt13> thanks, just curious how you are powering it with 1.4v. I thought it was a Pi or something! :)
[22:18] <SP9UOB-Tom> ibanezmatt13: MCP1640 as step-up
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[22:18] <ibanezmatt13> ah right :)
[22:19] <SP9UOB-Tom> ibanezmatt13: http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pico/pico1.jpg
[22:19] <Jess--> anyone with any info about the 808 cameras and gps problems?
[22:19] <SP9UOB-Tom> ibanezmatt13: http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pico/pico2.jpg
[22:19] <ibanezmatt13> SP9UOB-Tom: Did you build that yourself?
[22:20] <SP9UOB-Tom> ibanezmatt13: yes
[22:20] <ibanezmatt13> that's extremely impressive. I love seeing things like this :)
[22:21] <ibanezmatt13> I really think I should start learning C properly. There's so much I want to do that requires it!
[22:21] <eroomde> "With our creative thinking sessions people learn how to adapt the way they think, see and do things so they can rely on just their instincts to achieve their ambitions."
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[22:21] <eroomde> Wax On! Wax Off!
[22:21] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[22:22] <eroomde> C is the lingua franca
[22:22] <eroomde> if you speak it you can do anything
[22:22] <eroomde> everything comes back to it
[22:22] <ibanezmatt13> What is the best way to learn a programming language from scratch? Youtube, books, websites? I really need to get this lanuguage under my belt
[22:22] <eroomde> learncthehardway
[22:22] <eroomde> take it after learnpythonthehardway
[22:22] <SP9UOB-Tom> ibanezmatt13: kerninghan & Ritchie
[22:23] <eroomde> but the answer is definitely to code and type yourself
[22:23] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://zanasi.chem.unisa.it/download/C.pdf
[22:23] <SP9UOB-Tom> first try at PC, and then switch to uC
[22:24] <ibanezmatt13> I must admit, I've been re-writing all that code for my Pi today and it makes more sense re-writing it! It makes you think logically. Thanks SP9UOB-Tom
[22:24] <eroomde> http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/
[22:25] <arko> K&R <3
[22:25] <eroomde> http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/krcritique.html
[22:25] <eroomde> :p
[22:25] <chrisstubbs> Unfortunately, my cameras ran out of film before the balloon burst
[22:25] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: when you said learnthehardway, I thought you literally meant learn the hard way :)
[22:26] <arko> http://www.codecademy.com
[22:26] <chrisstubbs> haha I inserted each camera in and waited.
[22:26] <eroomde> lol no!
[22:26] <arko> i've heard this works well
[22:26] <eroomde> they're really well written books
[22:26] <arko> i havent tried it
[22:26] <arko> but my friend swears by it
[22:26] <eroomde> they're called that as they're sort of an antitdote to 'LEARN C IN 12 HOURS!!!1' books
[22:27] <ibanezmatt13> thanks, I'll take a look
[22:27] <cuddykid> done - HABE Lab iPhone tracking app 24hrs later ready to be submitted to app store :)
[22:27] <arko> dont take shortcuts would be my advice
[22:29] <eroomde> you'll be fine anyway - you did well getting up to speed with the python stuff
[22:29] <Laurenceb__> wtf channel4
[22:30] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: thanks :)
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[22:32] <ibanezmatt13_> Sorry, router failed
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[22:36] <Laurenceb__> channel surfing to channel4 is worse than visiting /b/
[22:39] <Laurenceb__> oooh
[22:39] <Laurenceb__> nice oscillations
[22:42] <griffonbot> @adamcudworth: 24hrs later - build 112 of HABE Lab iPhone tracking app submitted to App Store. Hopefully it gets approved.. #ukhas [http://twitter.com/adamcudworth/status/339874445185392640]
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[22:54] <arko> wow toms hab is doing well
[22:54] <arko> not really rising though
[22:56] <SP9UOB-Tom> the night is helping
[22:56] <SQ5KGO> for Tom it will be a long night
[22:57] <SQ5KGO> :)
[22:57] <KT5TK_QRL> arko: It's a pico. Won't go much higher than that
[22:57] <SP9UOB-Tom> KT5TK_QRL: last one was did 7 km :-)
[22:58] <KT5TK_QRL> Daytime?
[22:58] <SP9UOB-Tom> yes
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[22:58] <SQ5KGO> yes
[22:58] <nigelvh_> It's a foil
[22:58] <KT5TK_QRL> That's about the limit a pico can go.
[22:59] <KT5TK_QRL> You really want it as low as 3500m
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> Damn - that's a decent number of receivers
[22:59] <KT5TK_QRL> because you want reserve space when the sun comes out tomorrow
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> KT5TK_QRL: Quite - any higher and you end up really sacrificing lift
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> KT5TK_QRL: There is no reserve space - it will ascend till it hits the enveolpe pressure density defect level
[23:00] Action: SpeedEvil needs to come up with a better term for that
[23:01] <nigelvh_> "balloon go splode"
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:03] <KT5TK_QRL> So how exactly do you calculate the "enveolpe pressure density defect level" for a general floater?
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> Floating occurs when the average density of the balloon system is the same as the outside air.
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> This happens (from a rising balloon) when the balloon stops being elastic, and compresses the gas inside enough that the density of the overall system equals the outside air.
[23:04] <arko> ah
[23:05] <KT5TK_QRL> That's really not a secret, but how do you get to that value if you have the balloon material, weight lift gas etc.
[23:05] <arko> any pilots here?
[23:05] <arko> does eu use feet in flight?
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> For a pico - it's rather easy
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[23:06] <SpeedEvil> you work out the amount of helium in the baloon, and its volume.
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> (maximum volume)
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> you then look up a pressure chart to find out at what altitude the balloon will reach its max diameter, and become taut
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> The excess lift - say it's 2N at this point, and the balloon is 1m^3 means that if the atmosphere is 1kg/m^3, it needs to rise until the density is about 0.8
[23:07] <arko> i got my new google maps invite
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> For it to float
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> This means that the pressure inside is the difference between the two altitudes.
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> If this pressure difference exceeds the envleope strengfth, it bursts
[23:10] <KT5TK_QRL> OK, I follow til here.
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[23:14] <KT5TK_QRL> So why does the balloon ascend in the morning when everything is constant?
[23:15] <SP9UOB-Tom> KT5TK_QRL:not everything
[23:15] <SP9UOB-Tom> dentisity of the helium/hydrogen changes
[23:15] <SP9UOB-Tom> when it get warmer
[23:16] <KT5TK_QRL> Obviously not. But if temperature increases, we get a even higher volume of the balloon, don't we?
[23:18] <KT5TK_QRL> If so, the assumption that we stop at the total maximum volume before burst seems to be wrong
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> the balloon expands a little, density drops, it rises
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> reverse happens at night
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> assuming no leaks
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> eventually it leaks enough that the excess pressure - and lift - that causes it to float goes away, and it sinks
[23:20] <SpeedEvil> or the balloon UV degrades, or stretches, ...
[23:20] <KT5TK_QRL> Well, let's keep it at an ideal balloon with no leaks
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[23:42] Nick change: craag -> Phil_M0DNY
[23:42] <KT5TK_QRL> Maybe the anomaly of water vapor in the helium inside the balloon plays a role for the floating process of a mylar balloon. Note that we're around 0 C where SP9UOB is floating at the moment. The vapor <-> liquid and vapor <-> sublimated ice reaction coefficients may be just in equilibrium. Ice has a lower density than liquid water, therefore the non-linear volume vs. altitude relation.
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[00:00] --- Thu May 30 2013