highaltitude.log.20130523

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[03:21] <KF7FER> So anybody powering their MAX-6 off? I'm seeing some terrible "hot start" times (60s) despite powering VBAT
[03:24] <KF7FER> I run the MAX-6 for 5 minutes after it gets a fix, then try and sleep the 328 for 32s.. and I miss my 60s timeslot
[03:26] <nigelvh> How long have you left it on in general. It can take up to fifteen minutes to aquire the full almanac, so if you turn it off, even if you have it battery backed up, if the almanac isn't complete, it can't do a warm start.
[03:31] <KF7FER> really? It's 5mins total
[03:31] <KF7FER> so I will have to try and up the initial delay a bit, thanks!
[03:31] <KF7FER> a bit=15 mins :-)
[03:32] <KF7FER> I must assume, like all things gps, that the time varies quite a bit? sometimes the code works perfectly
[03:39] <nigelvh> Yeah. The full almanac takes a bit to transmit, and they only do it every so often, so 15 minutes is what is said to be the safe bet to make sure you've gotten the full almanac.
[03:39] <KF7FER> running a new test now. and before, by "5mins total" I really meant 5 mins _after_ it first got a fix and then waited until it's timeslot came around
[03:39] <nigelvh> (This is speaking for GPS as a system in general, I can't speak much to the specifics of the uBlox.)
[03:39] <KF7FER> thanks nigelvh, I appreciate it
[03:40] <KF7FER> safe is good
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[03:43] <KF7FER> I'd kind of suspected a problem in general as my "iffy" SkyTraq GPS would always hot start within 2 seconds when hooked up to my D710. But it was powered by the car battery and ran a bit longer than 5mins before power off
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[04:26] <KF7FER> so I let the MAX-6 run for 15mins before a sleep and it's better, but still takes 5-20s to hot start. Delay a bit longer before power off?
[04:36] <nigelvh> 5-20 seconds seems pretty reasonable to acquire.
[04:36] <nigelvh> Especially if you're inside.
[04:36] <KF7FER> well I'm outdoors but it's raining and well I'm kinda obstructed
[04:37] <nigelvh> Yeah
[04:37] <nigelvh> If your gps in the car acquires faster, I might venture to guess it never really turns off.
[04:37] <nigelvh> If 2 seconds is an accurate description.
[04:38] <KF7FER> might not. I did have to jump start my truck every so often ;-)
[04:38] <nigelvh> But 5-20 seconds is entirely reasonable
[04:38] <KF7FER> ok, thanks. will have to adjust my sleep to suit.
[04:39] <KF7FER> I'm really close right now
[04:39] <KF7FER> I was sleeping for 32s +/- 10% and about 10% of the time I missed my slot
[04:40] <KF7FER> 10% means once
[04:40] <KF7FER> with an 80s sleep and 40s to recover I'm 100%
[04:41] <KF7FER> 80s +/- 10% ;-)
[04:42] <nigelvh> Sounds pretty reasonable
[04:43] <KF7FER> really? I'm disappointed, I thought I'd get a fix within 10s or so of power up. Unreasonable expectations?
[04:43] <KF7FER> so better in the field (field=HAB payload)
[04:44] <nigelvh> Cold starts take a while. 5-20 seconds is pretty good.
[04:45] <KF7FER> ok. I can't complain really. I'm going to reduce the transmit rate to 1x every 120s at altitude so that should solve my problem really
[04:45] <nigelvh> Yeah, it says with ideal conditions a warm start could take up to 26 seconds.
[04:45] <KF7FER> ideal you say? nasty
[04:45] <KF7FER> I'm really close to that worst case
[04:45] <KF7FER> maybe 30
[04:46] <nigelvh> Taken from the datasheet: http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/MAX-6_DataSheet_%28GPS.G6-HW-10106%29.pdf
[04:46] <KF7FER> heh. I was going to say I guess I need to read the datasheet closer ;-)
[04:47] <nigelvh> If you've got something like a chip antenna, or poor satellite visibility, or whatnot, it could take longer.
[04:47] <KF7FER> chip antenna? $5 for the win!
[04:47] <KF7FER> you don't live near the west coast of the US do you? I owe you a beer and I'd hate to have to give it to you ;-)
[04:48] <KF7FER> really I'd pay to sit down and have a beer or two
[04:48] <KF7FER> but I'd do pretty much anything for a good beer
[04:48] <nigelvh> I'm in Seattle
[04:48] <KF7FER> coming to SeaPac?
[04:48] <nigelvh> When is it?
[04:49] <KF7FER> the weekend of 5/31
[04:49] <KF7FER> in Seaside, Oregon. Home of rain and rust
[04:49] <nigelvh> Nope, that's my launch day.
[04:49] <nigelvh> 6/1
[04:49] <KF7FER> :-/
[04:49] <nigelvh> I'll be over in Moses Lake launching 3 balloons.
[04:49] <KF7FER> not afraid of getting hit by a 747?
[04:50] <KF7FER> Moses lake - been there, wiped the bugs of my windshield
[04:50] <nigelvh> We launch from the airport there and coordinate with the tower.
[04:50] <KF7FER> cool!
[04:50] <KF7FER> a long drive from Pdx (but I have done it, my ex had a friend that lived there)
[04:52] <nigelvh> Yeah, we've got some interesting flights this year. Two of them are student flights with basic payloads like UV sensors and temp/pressure sensors, etc. Then we've got the third flight for a research payload with a plasma thruster we're testing.
[04:52] <nigelvh> (The flights are with the University of Washington)
[04:57] <KF7FER> nice. My daughter wanted to go to UW but ended up at WSU Vancouver then going to ASU
[04:58] <KF7FER> three kids and not one hardcore geek. I'd failed as a dad :-/
[04:58] <KF7FER> I've even
[04:59] <nigelvh> Nah, everyone's their own person. Nobody in my family was really into electronics, computers sure, but electronics was mine.
[04:59] <nigelvh> Just because they're not "hardcore geeks" doesn't mean they ain't got smarts.
[05:00] <KF7FER> certainly. They are smart enough that's for sure. I was just thinking that every kid in school would know tons about computers - way more than me - but now it's just a tool they just use.
[05:01] <nigelvh> Yep. Just like the typewriter. Did most people using those know how to build them? Nope.
[05:01] <KF7FER> of course if I was just hoping I'd have a geek "just like dad" my oldest is a geek - just in a different way
[05:01] <KF7FER> no doubt. I should have known better. The computer is now a tool, like it should be
[05:03] <KF7FER> you know the datasheet mentions hot start at 1s
[05:03] <nigelvh> Really though, with the modern microprocessor kits like arduino, it's really easy to get into. I never did anything significant with electronics until fairly late on. But I could do some programming, and I got an arduino and it let me make programming "physical"
[05:03] <nigelvh> Hot start means not shutting it off.
[05:03] <nigelvh> IE, Loss of signal, and regaining it.
[05:03] <KF7FER> really? seems like cheating to say that
[05:04] <KF7FER> and well I couldn't solder two wires for a long time. I'm much better now ;-)
[05:04] <nigelvh> Still an important characteristic.
[05:07] <KF7FER> seems like more often than not it gets a fix pretty quickly
[05:08] <KF7FER> and wow does time to first fix vary wildly - from 45s to 6mins!
[05:14] <KF7FER> oh I see now... "warm start w/o aiding 26s"
[05:14] <KF7FER> I am such an idiot
[05:15] <KF7FER> so warm vs hot
[05:17] <nigelvh> Yep
[05:18] <KF7FER> learn something every day (at least I hope)
[05:18] <Upu> morning all
[05:19] <arko> morning Upu
[05:19] <KF7FER> I was just cursing Upu's name in vain over problems with the MAX-6 but I see the problem is my failure to read the datasheet correctly
[05:20] <Upu> lol
[05:20] <Upu> which bit ?
[05:20] <KF7FER> warm starts
[05:20] <KF7FER> is taking me 20s or so to warm start after I power it down
[05:20] <KF7FER> I thought it only took 1s or so ;-)
[05:20] <Upu> so did I tbh
[05:21] <Upu> never used them
[05:21] <Upu> so they take 20s ?
[05:21] <KF7FER> sometimes yes
[05:21] <KF7FER> 10% of the time
[05:22] <KF7FER> but I'm deep sleeping the 328 and powering down the MAX-6
[05:22] <KF7FER> I keep VBAT alive but still
[05:23] <Upu> do yuo use the RFM22B in anything ?
[05:24] <KF7FER> not right now, still using the HX1
[05:24] <Upu> ok had confirmation the crystal on it is only stable to -20
[05:25] <Upu> back in 5
[05:25] <KF7FER> k
[05:25] <nigelvh> Good to know upu
[05:29] <Upu> we've had a number fail on long duration flights
[05:29] <nigelvh> And they probably don't keep themselves warm enough
[05:30] <Upu> yup indeed
[05:30] <Upu> quite telling the one on AVA came back into life when the HX1 board shorted out and got really hot
[05:31] <nigelvh> I wonder how much heat it would take to just keep the xtal warm.
[05:31] <nigelvh> Say with a resistor.
[05:32] <nigelvh> Or if you swapped the xtal if it would work better.
[05:32] <Upu> swap it with a TCXO is the best bet
[05:33] <Upu> should be just a straight swap I think
[05:33] <Upu> will have a look today
[05:33] <nigelvh> Certainly the more power efficient option.
[05:36] <KF7FER> So I've been complaining about the MAX-6 being slow to recover from a warm start but lately if I sleep for 24s (+/- 10%) I get a fix in 5s
[05:37] <KF7FER> after a 15mins before I start sleeping
[05:37] <KF7FER> 15min delay that is
[05:38] <Upu> interesting never tried it actually
[05:38] <KF7FER> trying to improve my battery life
[05:38] <KF7FER> is really cool to see the board sleep and come back to life
[05:38] <nigelvh> BTW Upu, have you played with the orientation of your chip antennas? Do they work best in any orientation besides "flat facing up"
[05:39] <Upu> they seem to work in any orientation
[05:40] <nigelvh> That's what I was figuring.
[05:40] <Upu> Steve did a whole flight with one upside down by accident
[05:40] <KF7FER> maybe it's just my bad design but they seem to be nearly as good as the Sarantel antennas
[05:40] <nigelvh> Mine seem to have a hard time aquiring inside.
[05:41] <nigelvh> Once they get it, seems stable, but takes a bit.
[05:41] <Upu> yeah they aren't great inside
[05:41] <KF7FER> mine work nearly as good in my house as outside. Maybe that's a comment on the quality of my 1930's house?
[05:42] <Upu> lol
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[06:00] <ibanezmatt13> Good Morning :)
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[06:23] <nigelvh> Still around Upu?
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[06:24] <KT5TK> Hi nigelvh
[06:24] <nigelvh> Evening KT5TK
[06:24] <nigelvh> How's things?
[06:25] <KT5TK> I also tested my first chip antenna today
[06:25] <KT5TK> KT5TK-3
[06:25] <nigelvh> Yeah?
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[06:25] <nigelvh> Looks pretty decent.
[06:25] <KT5TK> Seems to be ok outside
[06:26] <UpuWork> here now nigelvh
[06:26] <UpuWork> just about to do some soldering
[06:26] <nigelvh> Point of curiosity, from the wiki on your store, the example code for setting flight mode, how was that generated?
[06:26] <KT5TK> I have found out that you mustn't be close to a computer monitor with the GPS receiver
[06:26] <nigelvh> I'm looking at the protocol spec doc and what I'm seeing looks different.
[06:27] <UpuWork> nigelvh u-blox u-center
[06:27] <nigelvh> hmm
[06:27] <UpuWork> you can use the messages view to show what command is sent to the GPS
[06:27] <nigelvh> I'll have to try that.
[06:28] <nigelvh> KT5TK, here's six of mine with chip antennas on my desk. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Nlm4uCvSU
[06:28] <KT5TK> Ha nice. The LEDs are the heaviest components on the PCB :)
[06:29] <Upu> nigelvh http://i.imgur.com/rmvsWl6.png
[06:29] <Upu> ok afk
[06:29] <Upu> remember is CFG-NAV5 btw
[06:29] <nigelvh> Yeah, that's the one I'm looking at.
[06:30] <nigelvh> Thanks.
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[06:39] <nigelvh> Sorry I can't stick around KT5TK, but I have to hit the hay. Have a good evening!
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[06:44] <KT5TK> NP so do I. gn!
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[08:02] <griffonbot> Received email: SP9UOB "[UKHAS] SEBA-3 launch annoucement, 25-05-2013 @10:00 UTC Jaworzno near WieluD/ Poand (SOLAR/ATV/HF)"
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[08:10] <x-f> five payloads, one balloon!
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[08:34] <Ugi> Are the rules different out in Poland? I thought those frequencies and powers were outside what was permitted. Must be some balloon - surely you'd need quite a lot of battery to keep up >1W transmission for any lenght of time!
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[08:35] <eroomde> people fly raspberry pis...
[08:35] <eroomde> raspberry pi's
[08:35] <Ugi> Are they very current heavy?
[08:36] <eroomde> quite yes
[08:36] <eroomde> about 2.5W
[08:37] <daveake> model A is 0.6W
[08:37] <daveake> which is still heavy :p
[08:37] <Ugi> That does sound a lot! I guess they are pretty high spec'd
[08:37] <daveake> more than you need for a tracker, yes
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[08:38] <Ugi> Some people seem to be streaming video with them, which seems pretty fancy!
[08:39] <daveake> Yep. Well, if you've got the power, you might as well use some of it
[08:40] <daveake> One of mine did video over 3G on the ground, then stills over radio during flight, then switched back after landing
[08:41] <chrisstubbs> I'm going to have a crack at using the temperature sensor onboard the RFM22B to offset the frequency tonight
[08:44] <Ugi> There are a whole lot of things in that I would like to understand! I take it RFM' is an alternative to NXT2
[08:45] <Ugi> And that the frequency drifts with temperature.
[08:46] <daveake> yes it's an alternative. cheaper and "frequency agile" which means you can program what frequency to use. Also it's a transceiver so that clever people can transmit to the tracker.
[08:46] <Ugi> 3G video at lower altitudes would be fab! I need more spare time! Anyone got Friday's lottery numbers?
[08:46] <daveake> However it appears to have a problem working at low temperatures
[08:47] <Ugi> I guess -50'C is beyond it's expected environments.
[08:47] <chrisstubbs> daveake: "clever people" aha
[08:47] <daveake> -20 is the min for that.
[08:47] <daveake> Almost all transmitters have a frequency that varies with temperature. It's generally not a problem so long as payloads are well insulated. Or you can temperature-control the transmitter
[08:48] <chrisstubbs> I'm going to take a module into work and thermally cycle it in a LN2 chamber
[08:48] <chrisstubbs> see what goes wrong
[08:48] <Ugi> at -273? Pretty much everything, I would have thought!
[08:48] <Ugi> sorry -173
[08:49] <chrisstubbs> Lol not quite that cold perhaps
[08:49] <Ugi> or was it -196? I forget. Whatever, it's pretty damned cold
[08:49] <chrisstubbs> you can set a temperature profile and step it down
[08:50] <Ugi> I see. Sounds handy. What type of work do you do that has one of those?
[08:50] <daveake> Ice cream vendor
[08:51] <Ugi> On-the-spot icecream! Must be a market
[08:51] <Ugi> I made LN2 ice-cream with my daughter's after-school club one time. It worked great.
[08:53] <eroomde> we used to fly bananas
[08:53] <eroomde> they came back black and freeze-dried
[08:53] <Ugi> Are you serious?
[08:53] <Ugi> If so, I might try strawberries
[08:56] <eroomde> i am serious
[08:56] <eroomde> and port
[08:56] <eroomde> (space port - hah...)
[08:56] <eroomde> just little mini-bar bottles
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[09:00] <kokey> so
[09:00] <kokey> my flight leaves johannesburg tonight, and lands in london tomorrow morning
[09:00] <kokey> and I'm not going to be on it
[09:00] <kokey> and it's non refundable
[09:01] <kokey> thanks UK home office for having a 'delay' with my visa application again and making me lose money and miss a wedding
[09:02] <kokey> last year I was trapped in the UK for 7 months while they were having a 'technical issue' with my visa
[09:03] <eroomde> which place do you want to live in?
[09:04] <kokey> I'm living in south africa now
[09:04] <kokey> I probably want to be what Afrikaans people used to call the English in South Africa
[09:04] <kokey> a 'soutpiel'
[09:04] <kokey> which means a salty willy, because one leg is in the UK and one in South Africa
[09:05] <eroomde> a salty willy
[09:05] <eroomde> wow
[09:06] <kokey> anyway, we're expecting, and our son is going to have an English mom and South African dad
[09:06] <kokey> and grandparents in both countries
[09:06] <Ugi> freeze-dried port? Or you are on the port?
[09:06] <Ugi> sorry - missed a few lines there. Page stopped scrolling for some reason.
[09:07] <eroomde> the port was nice once thawed
[09:09] <Ugi> This is a good plan - I must think about what small but tasty foods can be sent up and will come down changed but improved/edible.
[09:11] <Ugi> I was thinking about sending a valved bottle (like an empty water-bottle) to show that the air got sucked out at high altitudes.
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[09:14] <SpeedEvil> ice cream
[09:15] <SpeedEvil> a thinnish layer should freeze dry
[09:15] <SpeedEvil> in general for freeze drying, you need to heat the food as well as low pressure
[09:16] <SpeedEvil> sunlight should work well
[09:16] <gonzo_> I'm supprised that bobble wrap survives at alt
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[09:24] <GW8RAK> Apparently marsh mallows photograph well as the pressure decreases.
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[09:30] <Ugi> I wondered that about the expanded polystyrene - why does it not blow up 100x like the balloon does? It's supposed to be "closed cell"
[09:30] <eroomde> probably rigid enoug that the gas just permeates
[09:30] <eroomde> however i have seen them crush a bit on descent
[09:30] <eroomde> especially if covered in tape
[09:31] <eroomde> i think they fall so quickly that they don;t have time to pressure-equalise
[09:31] <eroomde> and so crush
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[09:45] <x-f> Upu's APRS payload failed due to expanding polystyrene - it pushed the boards apart
[09:45] <UpuWork> well sort of
[09:45] <UpuWork> actually didn't cause failure
[09:45] <Ugi> Ah - another thing to think about then!
[09:47] <SpeedEvil> has anyone flown a beagle?
[09:48] <Brace> no but there's a guy talking about flying some hamsters
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[09:49] <Brace> can't find the link tho
[09:50] <Brace> beagles are pretty heavy as well, not sure you'd get a ballon big enough
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[09:50] <x-f> lol
[09:50] <Brace> there's got to be a pun in that as well, just can't think of any... :/
[09:53] <gonzo_> pft, we could be dogged with a pun thread
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[09:57] Action: Laurenceb is playing with enthalpy diagrams
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[09:57] <Laurenceb> so.. a slush LOX giffard injector works
[09:57] Action: mfa298 hopes this pun session get's kept on a short lead
[09:58] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: lox slush?
[09:58] <Laurenceb> yeah
[09:58] <Laurenceb> not too hard to make
[09:58] <Laurenceb> then the lox doesnt boil in the injector
[09:58] <SpeedEvil> how does that work?
[09:58] <SpeedEvil> ah
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> what temperature is a lox slushy?
[09:59] <Laurenceb> ~50K
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> and is it pumpable.
[09:59] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:00] <Laurenceb> LH2 slush has been used previously
[10:00] <Laurenceb> but LOX slush is way easier
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[10:00] <Laurenceb> then combustion chamber/preburner gas for running the injector
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> O3 - if it seems too easy
[10:01] <SpeedEvil> is this just to avoid an oxygen turbopump?
[10:01] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:01] <Laurenceb> so no turbopumps at all
[10:01] <SpeedEvil> sounds interesting.
[10:02] <Laurenceb> unfortunately if you use propane with it, the propane will freeze with a common bulkhead
[10:02] <SpeedEvil> ethane?
[10:02] <SpeedEvil> or do I mean methane
[10:02] <SpeedEvil> propane is 3c?
[10:02] <Laurenceb> methane has higher melting point
[10:02] <Laurenceb> for some reason
[10:02] <jonsowman> :D
[10:03] <jonsowman> wrong window.
[10:03] <daveake> Got my callsign now
[10:03] <Laurenceb> i wonder if there is a fuel that works
[10:03] <jonsowman> what did you go for?
[10:03] <daveake> M6RPI
[10:03] <jonsowman> lol
[10:03] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: other than h2 I assume?
[10:03] <daveake> I tried M6HAB, DPA, BUZ
[10:03] <daveake> all gone
[10:04] <daveake> and PIE
[10:04] <SpeedEvil> fly?
[10:04] <daveake> No someone has that
[10:04] <jonsowman> i wanted my name or some derivative
[10:04] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: yeah
[10:04] <jonsowman> ended up with M6JSA 2E0JSW M0JSN
[10:05] <Randomskk> I did similar but in retrospect should have gone with my name more
[10:05] <Randomskk> M6AGG, 2E0SKK, M0RND
[10:05] <Randomskk> actually I'm quite happy with M0RND
[10:05] <Laurenceb> you are dead?
[10:05] <jonsowman> lol
[10:05] <jonsowman> very good
[10:05] <Randomskk> >_>
[10:05] <daveake> :)
[10:05] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I guess a teeny bit of aerogel, could work
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[10:06] <mfa298> I didn't get a choice (or at least it was harder to choose) when I got my license.
[10:06] <Laurenceb> heh
[10:06] <Laurenceb> any insulation would work
[10:06] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: heat flow in from the atmosphere is going to be nasty
[10:06] <mfa298> but on the plus side I didn't have to do three sets of exams for a Full
[10:06] <Laurenceb> but it makes things more complex
[10:06] <gonzo_> whey i got my call you could reserve, but you had to wait for it to be issued in sequence
[10:06] <SpeedEvil> quite
[10:06] <LazyLeopard> Curiously, I managed to get the same suffix for each of M6, 2E0 and M0
[10:06] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: its not too bad
[10:06] <Laurenceb> you just want to avoid all the ice melting
[10:06] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I guess it depends on the pad time
[10:07] <Laurenceb> the subcooling works for the injector
[10:07] <Laurenceb> youd recirculate to a low pressure LN2 chiller
[10:07] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: this wasn't something for hab launch then?
[10:07] <Laurenceb> no, i was playing around looking for ultra low complexity rocket designs
[10:07] <SpeedEvil> ah
[10:08] <Laurenceb> can't get much simpler than an injector for pumping
[10:08] <SpeedEvil> add a couple of really simple stages, and you can get away with pressure fed cheap fibregflas pretty much
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> ssto is conceptually simpler in some ways, sure.
[10:09] <Laurenceb> not with cryogenic propellants
[10:09] <Laurenceb> - fibreglass
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> true
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> I was meaning with h2o2/keep
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> kero
[10:10] <Laurenceb> but thats arguably more complex
[10:10] <Laurenceb> as you need to concentrate it
[10:10] <Laurenceb> and its more dangerous
[10:11] <SpeedEvil> yeah, this was based around being able to buy it
[10:11] <daveake> LazyLeopard That's got to be pretty rare! I think Upu managed the same.
[10:11] <SpeedEvil> there was a vendor that would ship you drums
[10:12] <fsphil_> I got *VIM for all three
[10:13] <Laurenceb> well... im never going to build any of this anyways
[10:13] <Laurenceb> but spun rockoon is easily done
[10:13] <SpeedEvil> gwaaaaan
[10:13] <SpeedEvil> I'll chuck in a tenner
[10:14] <Laurenceb> i guess you could demo the concept using LN2 slush + N2 gas
[10:14] <Laurenceb> using a vacuum pump to chill the LN2 to slush
[10:15] <Laurenceb> then the rest would just be some nylon rod + lathe
[10:15] <SpeedEvil> 3d print it, and kick starter
[10:15] <Laurenceb> lolz
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[10:18] <Laurenceb> i probably have all the parts already...
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[12:35] <gonzo_> wondering... When you put in the ascent rate on the path predict sw, is that the assumed rate for the whole ascent?
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[12:44] <daveake> yes
[12:45] <gonzo_> as there is thinning air and the expanding balloon increasing the drag. I assume that these roughly cancel out then?
[12:45] <daveake> which is mostly true. Obviously floaters aren't like that, nor are underfilled balloons (e.g. a large balloon with tiny payload) as those tend to start off slow till the envelope becomes more aerodynamic
[12:45] <gonzo_> GA, btw
[12:46] <daveake> Yeah mostly it all cancels out
[12:46] <daveake> H2 is a bit different and seems to accelerate
[12:46] <gonzo_> thanks. Just trying to understand (in a hand waving manner) the flight dynamics
[12:47] <daveake> Yeah, mostly, the different factors cancel out and it's a straight line
[12:47] <daveake> Sometimes you can tell it's about to burst as the rate slows down briefly
[12:48] <gonzo_> that would be reaching the elastic limit and the expansion becoming non linear?
[12:48] <daveake> Don't ask me for any maths I just do the arn waving :)
[12:48] <daveake> yep
[12:48] <daveake> arm
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[12:49] <gonzo_> tis good enough for me!
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[12:55] <kokey> ok looks like I might have my visa tomorrow
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[14:16] <SpeedEvil> when the name
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> balloon reaches the elastic limit, the differential pressure inside and out rises
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> there is then an increased density caused by this pressure rise.
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> if the balloon is strong enough to withstand being raised to an altitude at which the density increase due to the pressure rise equals the lift - it floats
[14:19] <craag> The way I thought of it is that the balloon always compresses the gas within it slightly. Float happens when it compresses it enough for it to be the same density as the air outside.
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> you can sort of ignore the compression that is strictly proportional to volume
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> as it just acts like an extra weight
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> hence the nice linear rise often observed.
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> float only happens when it becomes nonlinear
[14:23] <craag> And the balloon will start compressing the gas non-linearly when the material goes beyond it's elastic limit?
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> yes
[14:24] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> you can model it as becoming rigid
[14:24] <craag> Or when your foil balloon reaches max capacity :)
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> which is clearly wrong, but...
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> for foil, it,s close to right
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[16:05] <griffonbot> @willdude567: #UKHAS is cool. [http://twitter.com/willdude567/status/337600172450258944]
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[16:31] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "[UKHAS] Launch Announcement: XABEN50"
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[16:46] <Maxell> cool, but not for HABs http://www.iridium.com/About/IridiumNEXT/HostedPayloads.aspx
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> Why not?
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> A 433MHz receiver array.
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> I'll chip in a tenner.
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[17:30] <Spiruel> Hello - if I was to measure UV radiation using a sensor that was not omni directional, would using a ping pong ball cut in half be good enough to act as a diffuser for the UV light?
[17:30] <Spiruel> I hope that makes sense ^^
[17:31] <chris_99> hmm, that'd absorb some of the UV radiation though i would have thought?
[17:32] <chris_99> i guess it depends whether ping pong balls are transparent to UV too
[17:32] <Spiruel> I'm trying to see how well the plastic blocks uv, really hard to find useful info from the web
[17:32] <Spiruel> If I used transparent ping pong balls, would that be feasible?
[17:32] <chris_99> then it wouldn't diffuse at all though
[17:33] <chris_99> don't a lot of things absorb uv though, like glass does, doesn't it
[17:34] <Spiruel> yup
[17:34] <Spiruel> thanks for that anyway, got to go
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[17:38] <Maxell> SpeedEvil: no way downfacing antennas radiate enough for a sat to pick it up :P
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[17:41] <SpeedEvil> haha
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> I think you overestimate the perfection of the radiation pattern
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[17:47] <ibanezmatt13> Good Evening :)
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[17:48] <Maxell> SpeedEvil: yeah, and it's not hard to make it "perfect" for sats
[17:48] <Maxell> put it upside down :P
[17:50] <bertrik> We are considering measuring UV from a balloon too. I was thinking that probably the best way is to have two sensors with differing response spectrum and compare them, so not relying on the absolute value.
[17:51] <mfa298> is that upside down as compared to the normal upside down that's usually used for hab
[17:52] <eroomde> bertrik: that sounds quite cool
[17:52] <bertrik> eroomde: is there any experience with UV in this group?
[17:52] <eroomde> or just one photodiode exposed to the sky and another with a UV filter
[17:53] <bertrik> I hope to see the effect of the ozone layer in the measurements
[17:53] <eroomde> or amp the difference between a covered diode and an exposed diode or or or
[17:53] <eroomde> you can diectly detect ozone too
[17:53] <eroomde> would be interesting to see if they correlate
[17:54] <bertrik> yes
[17:55] <bertrik> we briefly looked at a direct ozone sensor, but IIRC it required a header drawing nearly 1W
[17:55] <bertrik> *heater
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[17:55] <eroomde> mmm quite possibly, i must admit ignorance as to how they work
[17:56] <chris_99> co2 could be interesting to look at too
[17:57] <eroomde> indeed
[17:58] <chris_99> oh they use a lot of power too
[17:58] <chris_99> 1200mW
[17:58] <eroomde> half a pi :)
[17:58] <chris_99> heh
[18:00] <chris_99> oh + it's an annoying voltage too, 6V
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[18:03] <eroomde> 6V is annoying?
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[18:11] <mattbrejza> bertrik: a UV LED will act as a UV photodiode
[18:12] <bertrik> mattbrejza: I saw some UV "sensors" on ebay that looked suspiciously like UV leds
[18:12] <mattbrejza> farnell have UV photodiodes for £30
[18:12] <mattbrejza> but UV LEDs will work too, just less sensitive
[18:13] <mattbrejza> and you dont need a UV filter (thanks to physics)
[18:13] <chris_99> heh, i'm confused why i said that now eroomde, i just thought it's not 5V
[18:13] <mattbrejza> also youll never guess what im making http://i.imgur.com/0vVyo9o.jpg
[18:13] <chris_99> are LiPo batteries ok @ low temperatures?
[18:14] <chris_99> ooh nice mattbrejza!
[18:14] <mattbrejza> providing you dont try to charge theyre not too bad
[18:14] <bertrik> mattbrejza: radiation detector?
[18:14] <mattbrejza> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixie_tube (not quite)
[18:15] <bertrik> mattbrejza: I found this one on ebay, inexpensive http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180846474255
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[18:16] <bertrik> the idea of eroomde to just use two and apply a UV filter (piece of glass?) to one seems appealing
[18:16] <chris_99> would you need to calibrate it though
[18:16] <mattbrejza> a UV photodiode/LED wont need a filter though
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[18:19] <bertrik> mattbrejza: why not? the idea is to use two to compare the outputs, to cancel for things like temperature / not looking in the same direction all the time / etc
[18:20] <mattbrejza> well you could have another detector to measure general light i suppose
[18:20] <mattbrejza> temperature wont have much of an effect
[18:20] <chris_99> how about this for a battery, 10,000mAh
[18:20] <chris_99> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/8065129-3-7V-10000mah-Lithium-polymer-Battery-For-iPad-3-Tablet-PCs-PDA-Digital-Products-Free/898993377.html
[18:20] <mattbrejza> are UV filters easy to get?
[18:21] <bertrik> ordinary glass filters UV, but I haven't looked up the exact absorption spectrum
[18:22] <mattbrejza> i would probably just go for one, and make sure FOV is high
[18:23] <mfa298> mattbrejza: if that's the next version of the chase car app I think you'll need a few more nixie tubes
[18:24] <mattbrejza> i have enough for altitude at lesat
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[18:30] <chrisstubbs> chris_99, 10,000mAh chinese capacity
[18:30] <chris_99> hmm, i'm tempted to get one just to play with
[18:31] <mattbrejza> dont come crying to us if it catches fire in your face
[18:32] <chrisstubbs> ^^ lol, yeah you will need a suitable charger
[18:32] <chrisstubbs> then it still might blow up
[18:32] <craag> daveake: Just wondering, what sort of time are you planning to launch on Sunday?
[18:33] <chris_99> haha, mattbrejza
[18:33] <craag> I'm planning a uni radio club outing and we'd like to combine that with some pi-tracking :)
[18:34] <daveake> sort of midday ish, roughly
[18:34] <craag> ok cheers!
[18:34] <daveake> 3-hour flight
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[18:36] <Babs> Does anyone on here have the ability to control the wind?
[18:37] <Babs> I can control my own wind but that is about it
[18:38] <daveake> You can? I've not mastered that all the time
[18:39] <Babs> In polite company I can
[18:39] <daveake> Impressive
[18:39] <eroomde> interestingly, the used to do large balloon launches on aircraft carriers
[18:39] <eroomde> for exactly this reason
[18:40] <eroomde> they sail along the wind vector so there is no net wind on the deck
[18:40] <eroomde> so you just need an aircraft carrier Babs
[18:41] <Babs> you could have told me 3 days ago eroomde. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22600299
[18:42] <chrisstubbs> 2.9 million is pretty cheap
[18:42] <eroomde> it probably costs that per hour to run though
[18:42] <Babs> Yes, apart from Amazon rip you off for next day delivery and I need it by Saturday chrisstubbs
[18:43] <chrisstubbs> Suppose you could pick it up
[18:43] <Babs> *Babs balances cost of 3D printing and cost of running aircraft carrier
[18:43] <Babs> *Babs books tickets to Bay of Biscay
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[18:44] <Babs> All I can say is that the air pressure in the Bristol Channel over the weekend is going to be huge
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[18:44] <Babs> As all wind directions appear to end there
[18:44] <bertrik> is that a good or bad thin?
[18:45] <Babs> If you are launching a boat under the bottom of your balloon bertrik, it is an excellent thing
[18:45] <Babs> *thin
[18:45] <Babs> However....
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[18:49] <chrisstubbs> Babs send us a prediction?
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[18:49] Nick change: [1]Geoff-G8DHE -> Geoff-G8DHE
[18:49] <chrisstubbs> or are you on upu's hourly?
[18:50] <Babs> is there an easy way or just imgur chrisstubbs?
[18:50] <chrisstubbs> should juat be able to paste the url
[18:50] <chrisstubbs> with the UUID
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[18:55] <Babs> Primary location, Saturday http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=d9256e5d338c9ac115a0ec8a4529154a17f5428f
[18:56] <Babs> Secondary location, Saturday http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=edbdc2629c98d58db64d57cbce43fe6e8a2359ba
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[18:57] <Babs> Primary location, Sunday http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=4e06737ed92fcce2383fea5ae7101763887ed068
[18:57] <Babs> Secondary location, Sunday http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=cd431c5a55d1bbe850940e32ca420a2815e21064
[18:57] <Babs> Secondary location Sunday it is then
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[18:59] Nick change: [1]Geoff-G8DHE -> Geoff-G8DHE
[18:59] <jonsowman> that does look somewhat safer
[19:00] <chrisstubbs> yeah that one looks the best
[19:00] <Babs> I agree, and DM is away so I think its too late to get another approval from a different location
[19:00] <chrisstubbs> looks like its landing right next to stratodeans location
[19:00] <Babs> Royal pain though, it means a 0430 start
[19:01] <chrisstubbs> that is very early :(
[19:01] <jonsowman> worth it
[19:01] <Babs> Its pretty much where i landed last year
[19:03] <Babs> I think so jonsowman. The other option is to go over to go over to the fens and ask you guys at Churchill nicely.
[19:03] <jonsowman> this weekend?
[19:03] <Babs> But there are more important things in life than losing your dignity over a balloon ;-)
[19:04] <jonsowman> can do a Sunday churchill launch if you like
[19:04] <jonsowman> are you literally just wanting to turn up and let go?
[19:04] <jonsowman> you're bringing everything?
[19:04] <Babs> Unless it is Suicide Sunday in which case I am all over a visit to Cambridge
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[19:04] <jonsowman> haha no it's not
[19:04] <jonsowman> that's not for a while yet
[19:04] <jonsowman> though I should probably get the noose ready
[19:05] <Babs> Hi jonsowman - yes, got everything. Would be in and out in and hour I reckon.
[19:05] <jonsowman> haha, want a bet? ;)
[19:05] <jonsowman> but yes we can do that, I can be free
[19:05] <Babs> Its a great offer, I appreciate it
[19:05] <jonsowman> might even find a couple of other helping hands
[19:05] <jonsowman> is it just yourself?
[19:06] <Babs> Let me check out whether that Sunday forecast changes, if it does and all roads lead to the english
[19:06] <Babs> *bristol
[19:06] <Babs> channel I would love to take you up on it
[19:06] <jonsowman> what time would you be wanting to launch/
[19:06] <jonsowman> ?
[19:07] <Babs> Should know by tomorrow I reckon, but don't put off anything for the potential that the wind doesn't change, it being a bank holiday, finals and mods prep time etc.
[19:07] <jonsowman> it's ok, I'm finished with exams
[19:07] <jonsowman> hence offering
[19:07] <Babs> We'd start off reasonably early, so maybe launch 10 ish I reckon, it takes us back towards Bicester which is near where my mate lives so quite handy
[19:08] <jonsowman> okay
[19:08] <jonsowman> could you let me know if it's a possible by tomorrow midday?
[19:08] <jonsowman> predictions won't change much in the last 48 hours typically anyway
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[19:08] <Babs> Good work. I was doing mine in the middle of Euro '96
[19:08] <jonsowman> but I need to let Churchill know that we may be onsite
[19:08] <Babs> That was a bad/good time
[19:08] <Spiruel> Hello, another quick question (sorry). Are there any disadvantages in getting a larger balloon, excluding the increased cost/more gas required?
[19:09] <Babs> Cheers jonsowman, will be on tomorrow and let you know. I appreciate it.
[19:09] <jonsowman> no problem Babs
[19:09] <jonsowman> I'm always idling in here
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[19:11] <MickMondo> Hi all, anyone on here to approve a launch ..?
[19:11] <jonsowman> yep, paste me the document id
[19:11] <MickMondo> 768b422b617ed1585c8aeb4ae395acb4
[19:11] <jonsowman> lovely, sec
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[19:12] <MickMondo> Oh by the way thanks for your help the other day, sorted the problem out cheers..
[19:12] <jonsowman> you're very welcome, glad to hear it :)
[19:12] <jonsowman> MickMondo: approved
[19:12] <MickMondo> thank you...
[19:12] <jonsowman> no worries
[19:13] <Spiruel> Does anybody know if a larger balloon has any disadvantages, excluding the increased cost?
[19:13] <MickMondo> filling it..
[19:13] <jonsowman> Spiruel: harder to fill, will reach a higher altitude for the same ascent rate so will drift further
[19:14] <MickMondo> Are you lifting a heavy payload or do you want high alt
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[19:15] <anerDev> hi guys ! =D
[19:15] <MickMondo> Hi
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[19:16] <Babs> jonsowman, harder to fill because of larger neck diameter or something?
[19:16] <Babs> I did a 1200g before, its a 2000g this w/e
[19:16] <jonsowman> it's just bigger, harder to hold and the wind grabs it more
[19:17] <Spiruel> jonsnowman: many thanks
[19:17] <Spiruel> trying to work out the weight of our payload
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[19:17] <Spiruel> its either 400g or 500g but it's hard to tell before everything is constructed and together
[19:17] <jonsowman> when it's at that annoying midpoint of "not quite buoyant enough to hold itself up", bigger balloons are noticeably more wriggly
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[19:18] <Babs> ahhh ok. I've got three peeps, a bunch of latex gloves, a 6mx4m tarpaulin and a blanket to keep it down. *crosses fingers*
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[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:18] <chrisstubbs> ohai Lunar_Lander
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[19:19] MickMondo (MickMondo@188.30.46.161.threembb.co.uk) left irc:
[19:20] <chrisstubbs> Not bad, hooking up yet another rfm board!
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[19:21] <chrisstubbs> and you?
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> ah quite OK, thanks
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[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> my opamp oscillator works now
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[19:26] <anerDev> guys, for power your circuit use you the AA battery ?
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> often
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> sometimes AAA
[19:27] [1]Geoff-G8DHE (~Geoff-G8D@93-97-160-198.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[19:28] <anerDev> oh many volt and a need normally ?
[19:28] <anerDev> *how
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[19:31] <griffonbot> Received email: MickMondo "[UKHAS] Planned Launch - Saturday"
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[19:35] <SpeedEvil> it varies according to power use
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> from about 1 AAA cell to 12 As
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> also how long the flight is expected to last matters
[19:40] <anerDev> my circuit need 12V 250mAh
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> where are you?
[19:41] <anerDev> in Italy
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[19:44] <malgar> anerDev: i'm italian too
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[20:01] <Tommo> arghhh
[20:01] <chrisstubbs> lmao reading the comments in jcoxon's RFM22.cpp edit
[20:04] <eroomde> link
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[20:05] <chrisstubbs> http://pastebin.com/Tm9i3hWP
[20:06] <Steffanx> I never understood why people use floating point for that
[20:06] <Steffanx> ( for the freq. calculation )
[20:07] <chrisstubbs> It all seemed pretty legit up to like 126
[20:07] <chrisstubbs> *line
[20:07] <fsphil> swearing actually makes the code compile better
[20:08] <arko> Lol
[20:08] <Steffanx> define: better
[20:08] <Steffanx> smaller code? Faster code? 'Better' code?
[20:08] <fsphil> not worse?
[20:08] <arko> You can just see him getting angry and giving up explaining somethings as you read down
[20:08] <jonsowman> fsphil: haha, pretty much
[20:09] <Tommo> what!!
[20:10] <Tommo> fuck it, going with 3e-club.ru's settings
[20:10] <Tommo> line 126
[20:10] <eroomde> // set crystal oscillator cap to 12.5pf (but I don't know what this means)
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> crystal trim capacitor
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> some are tunable. this changes the frequency a little.
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> also, if your PCB has 8pf, not 6 in your last design
[20:12] <eroomde> *I* know what it means SpeedEvil
[20:12] <eroomde> i was just amused
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> oh
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[20:12] <eroomde> it's a comment from the source code
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> sorry. I'm mostly asleep
[20:13] <nigelvh> I once worked on a project with a guy who named all his variables swear words. $ass = ($fuck + $shit) + 2.586;
[20:14] <fsphil> that must have compiled really well
[20:15] <nigelvh> fuck undefined in this context.
[20:15] <eroomde> my colleague on his phd had to collaborate with a chinese girl. they were doing research into combustion instability simulation
[20:15] <eroomde> he fired up the code to help her debug
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[20:15] <eroomde> the first variable was called 'a'
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[20:15] <eroomde> the second, 'aa'
[20:15] <eroomde> third, 'aaa'
[20:15] <eroomde> and so on
[20:16] Action: Laurenceb_ is getting annoyed by code today too
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> sometimes when i turn on my stm32 board, i get ripple on adc
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> sometimes... its clean
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> wtf
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[20:16] <Laurenceb_> i think its something aliasing down
[20:16] <eroomde> v odd
[20:17] <eroomde> can you correlate it with any other tings?
[20:17] <fsphil> feedback?
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> nope
[20:17] <eroomde> a vauum cleaner of desk lamp?
[20:17] <eroomde> or*
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> tried outside with everything in a box
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> its still random
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> but only after startup
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> - at startup
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> im guessing the flash is non deterministic
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> and interrupts are nesting in my hardware config code and doing something
[20:18] <nigelvh> Woo, nesting interrupts are the best!
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> NVIC ftw
[20:18] <eroomde> when they have hatchlings you're in real trouble
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> or not.. in my case
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[20:19] <Laurenceb_> its a complex OFDM thingy.. i really dont want to have to debug the entire dsp chain
[20:19] <eroomde> that sounds unfun
[20:19] <Laurenceb_> the constellation goes ripply...
[20:19] <eroomde> we had our rohde and scwarz guy come round today
[20:20] <eroomde> their shit is amazing
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> at 11.89hz..
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> remind me
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> names ring a bell
[20:20] <nigelvh> I almost got a nice rhode and scwarz signal generator on ebay a while back.
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> ah
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> lol
[20:21] <nigelvh> I think it was up to 6GHz, had been surplussed and went for like $300
[20:21] <eroomde> siggens that do sin (yup), square (yup), traingle/saw/pwn(uhuh), am and fm mod input (sure), gsm, wifi, wimax, LTE, HSDPA (holy shit!), realtime gps, galileo, glonass, all with miltipath, can input rinex files (JEEEEEESUS)
[20:21] <eroomde> it was just a god box
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> heh mental
[20:22] <nigelvh> Also required being god to be able to afford it.
[20:22] <eroomde> i'm hoping to borrow it
[20:22] <eroomde> well, not crazy by their standards
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[20:22] <eroomde> would be about $50k
[20:22] <eroomde> a lot of their stuff is house prices
[20:22] <nigelvh> Yeah
[20:22] <nigelvh> That's why I buy stuff a few generations old that's a LOT cheaper.
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> think i just need a frequency counter..
[20:23] Action: Laurenceb_ hits ebay
[20:23] <eroomde> nigelvh: yes same
[20:23] <fsphil> is it worth having a signal generator?
[20:23] <nigelvh> I just picked up an HP 8756B on ebay
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[20:23] <eroomde> a lot of our stuff is previous gens hp/agilent
[20:23] <eroomde> some very hold
[20:23] <fsphil> at my very beginner level I've never seen much need for one
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> so my constellations are output at 62.00396825Hz
[20:24] <eroomde> fsphil: yes i think so
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> and i have something running at 100hz
[20:24] <eroomde> especially for analog
[20:24] <fsphil> just to see how a circuit handles certain frequencies?
[20:24] <eroomde> yes exactly
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> and 192 cycles/constellation conversion
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> giving 11904.76hz carrier
[20:24] <eroomde> mathematically, you can completely describe a linear system by sying how it responds to sinusoidal inputs at different freqs
[20:24] <fsphil> I guess it would have to be used with a spectroscope at the other end
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[20:24] <Laurenceb_> any way to get a ~11.9hz ripple?
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> from the 100hz task
[20:25] <eroomde> we have just got quite a nice scope
[20:25] <eroomde> because they're worth it i think
[20:25] <nigelvh> At some point I need to get a DSO.
[20:25] <nigelvh> My analog one works well, but it's hard to catch things.
[20:26] <eroomde> and we have a calibrated agilent 6.5 digit multimeter so we can actually declare our rocket instrumentation is tracably calibrated to 0.1% or whatever
[20:26] <eroomde> yeah, the storage thing is brilliant
[20:27] <nigelvh> When my sig gen arrives I'll clock it from my GPSDO and then I'll have REALLY accurate freqeuency generation.
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[20:27] <eroomde> and memories on modern scopes are like 8 million points
[20:27] <eroomde> you can just keep on zooming in
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[20:28] <eroomde> i think we got a PSM1700 today
[20:28] <eroomde> quite a niche little thing
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> we got Tektronix
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> but I don't know which model
[20:29] <nigelvh> Shiny
[20:29] <eroomde> but nice for taking transfer functions of things. we can use it to tune the controllers for everything from linear actuators to switchmode power supplies to audio amps
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[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> but we also got CRT scopes from Philips
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> with the blue screen and green beams
[20:31] <eroomde> fsphil: dave jones (eevblog) has a couple of videos on basic siggens
[20:31] <eroomde> what to look for
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> somewhere we have a Fluke II RMS multimeter or so
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> but it is gone
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> maybe somewhere else because we opened a new lab
[20:33] <eroomde> new labs are a good way for stuff to go missing
[20:34] <eroomde> we got a second bench in our electronics lab today
[20:34] <eroomde> well, built one
[20:34] <eroomde> it's so nice - twice the sace!
[20:34] <eroomde> space*
[20:34] <eroomde> a lot of the measurement equipment on the shelf now has a proper home
[20:36] <Tommo> machines that go ping?
[20:36] <eroomde> yes
[20:36] <eroomde> and beep
[20:36] <eroomde> and ROOOAAARRRR
[20:36] <nigelvh> And whirr?
[20:36] <eroomde> which is a psu with a fan that was designed by Michael Bay
[20:36] <eroomde> i need to replace it with a modern quiet PC one
[20:37] <WILLdude> Hello
[20:37] <nigelvh> Afternoon
[20:37] ibanezmatt13 (56ad7d8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.173.125.140) joined #highaltitude.
[20:38] <ibanezmatt13> Evening all :) May I ask what the "ping" function does on this chat server?
[20:38] <Upu> short hand for
[20:38] <Upu> I would like your immediate attention please
[20:38] <eroomde> ping Upu
[20:38] <Upu> like that
[20:38] <eroomde> ...
[20:38] <Upu> it makes my client make a ping sound
[20:38] <eroomde> ping Upu
[20:38] <Upu> and that line is highlighted in red
[20:39] <Upu> also it makes my chat client blink in the task bar
[20:39] <eroomde> ping Upu
[20:39] <nigelvh> It only makes that sound because your name is in it.
[20:39] <nigelvh> Upu
[20:39] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[20:39] <ibanezmatt13> I see, and is Upu Anthony or is that UpuWork?
[20:39] <nigelvh> Upu
[20:39] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[20:39] <Upu> which amuses me no end when I'm concentrating on Eagle and stuff
[20:39] <nigelvh> Upu
[20:39] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[20:39] <eroomde> ping Upu
[20:39] <Upu> lol
[20:39] <eroomde> How are you today?
[20:39] <eroomde> tell me how you are
[20:39] <eroomde> today
[20:39] <eroomde> stop doing what you're doing
[20:39] <Upu> XD
[20:39] <eroomde> and instead tell me
[20:39] <nigelvh> PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEEE
[20:40] <ibanezmatt13> Which one is Anthony from HAB supplies? Upu, or Upuwork?
[20:40] <Upu> I love you all you're all very special
[20:40] <eroomde> Upu
[20:40] <Upu> They are all me ibanezmatt13
[20:40] <eroomde> UpuWork is someone else
[20:40] <Upu> Me is me
[20:40] <Upu> UpuWork is me at work
[20:40] <Upu> and Anthony is my real name
[20:40] <Upu> apart from on Sundays when its Marjorie
[20:40] <ibanezmatt13> Confused me for a moment, that makes sense :)
[20:41] <arko> VERY "special"
[20:41] <Tommo> Marjorie Stark now thats a picture
[20:41] <ibanezmatt13> Well Upu, we will be purchasing this weekend and we can collect on Tuesday if that's ok?
[20:41] <eroomde> you want to ask that question to UpuWork
[20:41] <eroomde> as it's about work
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> today I didn't watch out and overloaded a new regulator and a Tantalum cap
[20:42] <eroomde> i collect comission from Upu for helping his customers
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> I gave them 24 V
[20:42] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah :) Upuwork then...
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> the cap was rated 16 V and the regulator 6.5
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> crap happens
[20:42] <Upu> possibly ibanezmatt13 I'll need to let you know
[20:42] <Upu> I may not be in on Tuesday atm
[20:43] <ibanezmatt13> That's fine, feel free to email me if I don't find you on here before next week :)
[20:43] <Upu> place the order and leave your phone number on there I'll call you
[20:43] <ibanezmatt13> Sure :)
[20:43] <Upu> where are you coming from ?
[20:43] <ibanezmatt13> Wigan
[20:44] <ibanezmatt13> We fancy a trip anyway though :)
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[20:45] <Upu> lol ok
[20:45] Nick change: [1]Geoff-G8DHE -> Geoff-G8DHE
[20:47] <nigelvh> If I picked up in person from Upu those would pretty nearly be the most expensive GPS modules available on the market.
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> there are way more expensive space rated ones
[20:47] <nigelvh> To consumers?
[20:48] <SpeedEvil> hmm
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[20:49] <Upu> heh yeah that would be a long trip
[20:49] <Upu> though not as expensive as buying from ublox direct
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> http://b3ta.com/questions/thingskidssay/post1973117
[20:49] <nigelvh> Granted it's spendy because I quoted for tomorrow, but it would be a $1700 flight to London
[20:49] <nigelvh> Plus the GPS modules themselves.
[20:50] <nigelvh> A LOT spendier than getting them from uBlox direct.
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> nigelvh: have you priced 200m^3 of helium instead?
[20:51] <nigelvh> No
[20:52] <nigelvh> Also, at the price of $20 from Upu and $100 from uBlox, flying to pick them up from Upu would break even after 21 modules.
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[21:00] <ibanezmatt13> What's the best (cheapest) place to get helium these days in NW England?
[21:01] <daveake> balloonhelium.co.uk
[21:01] <ibanezmatt13> Thanks :)
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[21:03] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNQjHe1CpGQ
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> today I finished a payload board: atmega328, chip antenna GPS, microSD card, LDO regulator and three AAA batteries in a holder
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> 63.5 g
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> not sure yet if we add an NTX2, the balloon that we fly on may have a 70 cm radio
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[21:13] <Willdude123> Hello
[21:15] <Upu> sounds good Lunar_Lander any pics ?
[21:15] <Upu> Evening Will
[21:18] <Willdude123> How are you Upu?
[21:18] <Upu> tired
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, not yet and I don't know if I can take my cam to uni tomorrow
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> have a chemistry exam and I think having a camera on my belt is not that good there
[21:20] <eroomde> :)
[21:20] <Upu> possibly not
[21:20] <Willdude123> Sup ed?
[21:21] <Willdude123> How's the skylon project going?
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> will think about it, probably I can leave the cam at the office or so
[21:21] <eroomde> there's some fun stuff happening
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> also quite strange, exam is from 2-4 pm
[21:22] <eroomde> but not much of it is very public, inevitably
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> normally exam time is 10 am to noon
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[21:24] <Willdude123> So a load of stuff you can't talk about, because I might talk to a competitor?
[21:24] <gonzo_> this channel is public
[21:25] <jonsowman> and logged publically
[21:25] <eroomde> ^
[21:25] <Upu> and index by google for good measure
[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> OK I tell you something from my work then WILLdude
[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> today
[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> yes today
[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> I drank a cup of coffee!
[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:25] <Willdude123> My paternal parent works at QinetiQ and when I ask him what they do he says " I can't tell you that... Because I don't know"
[21:25] <Willdude123> Wow.
[21:26] <eroomde> Willdude123: yes i can imagine!
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> isn't that the company that wanted to launch Andy Elson into the stratosphere in 2003 but the balloon ripped?
[21:26] <eroomde> yes
[21:26] <Willdude123> Probably the American one, seperate entity.
[21:27] <Willdude123> I think
[21:27] <Tommo> The balloon ripped, thats how my eldest son was launched into the world
[21:27] <eroomde> no it was uk quinetiq
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[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:28] <Willdude123> Idiots
[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> actually Baumgartner is the first guy who made it into the stratosphere by balloon since the 60's
[21:28] <Willdude123> Alot of what they do sounds interesting though.
[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> all other attempts failed, like that french guy whose balloon flew away without the capsule
[21:29] Nick change: [1]Geoff-G8DHE -> Geoff-G8DHE_
[21:29] <qyx_> lol
[21:29] <eroomde> i saw that
[21:29] <eroomde> it was bad
[21:29] <Babs> And famous in my world for a company that was undersold by the Government in an array of dazzling incompetence http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/09/chisholm_retires/
[21:30] <eroomde> i met 'sir' john too
[21:30] <eroomde> wasn't impressed
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[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> so he does military research?
[21:30] <eroomde> he does being useless
[21:30] <Babs> You probably wouldn't be surprised to know that many of the people at the top are shows of dazzling incompetence
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[21:32] <Willdude123> QinetiQ puts my food on the table, so it's fine with me.
[21:32] <eroomde> put plenty of food on his table too
[21:32] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE -> Geoff-G8DHE__
[21:32] <Babs> Case in point: I refinanced a business in 2002 when its five year £250m loan facility was up. The doddery RBS banker who ran it told me "you know, we are going to have to see a financial model this time. I know you lot are good guys but those compliance people (at this point he does the whirling sebastian vettel finger to the brain thing) need it these days
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[21:33] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE__ -> Geoff-G8DHE_
[21:33] <eroomde> well, it's only £250m
[21:34] <Babs> tl;dr He loaned a company £250m on the basis of it being run by "good guys"
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[21:34] <Randomskk> it's how banks work. if they'd asked for £20k initially it'd probably involve far more rigour
[21:34] <Randomskk> but 250m, you must know what you're doing
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[21:34] <Randomskk> :/
[21:34] <chrisstubbs> Whoop getting a value back from the RFM's temperature sensor, shame it dosent change if i warm it/cool it
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[21:35] <Babs> eroomde, do you read?
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> german TV showed a dubbed Top Gear episode where they drove cheap cars
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> like a car from a brand called Proton
[21:35] <Babs> ie books. i'm not insulting cantabs again.
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> and they said that RBS should be forced to have these cars for their employees
[21:36] <eroomde> ones with pictures yup
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[21:38] <Babs> I thought of you when I recalled this book (there are a few pictures in it) http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Arc-Dramatic-Everest/dp/0060195185 - its basically the story of how the victorians mapped india and height of everest using basic equipment but some cool maths to eliminate their errors.
[21:38] <Babs> It reminded me of you and your ever decreasing ellipses
[21:38] <eroomde> they are beign stubborn atm
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[21:39] <eroomde> i think they will remain so until the significant bump to dual-frequency receiving
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[21:39] <Babs> i understood the first half of that sentence
[21:40] <chrisstubbs> stubbsorn?
[21:40] <eroomde> i shall read it
[21:40] <eroomde> ty :)
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[21:41] <Babs> There are some ace photos of flimsy 100 foot high platforms with theodolites weighing half a ton on them (they measured from point to point, but building platforms was the only way to get them above the treetops).
[21:42] <Babs> It would be great to travel back in time with a ublox and just tell them to put their feet up for a few years and it would get a lot easier
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[21:42] <Babs> I think they measured the curvature of the earth at the same time as a sort of analytical freebie. as you do.
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> you'd need to get some Delta rockets and GPS sats through the time machine too
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> and launch them without anybody noticing who could leak it to history books
[21:43] <Randomskk> nasa would throw a fit a hundred years later
[21:43] <eroomde> we were good at eliminiating entire regions of people in the past
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[21:43] <Randomskk> though amusingly given as gps signals are so far below the noise floor, probably no one would notice until we had radar looking for satellites
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[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> well I think in Victorian England no one looked at the sky for radio sources
[21:47] <daveake> Some wanted to, but found that they'd always left their receiver elsewhere
[21:47] <Babs> They would probably have worked out a way of seeing them with beeswax, pig iron and cigars
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> lol
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> I recently heard of a movie that plays in Victorian england about a guy who finds something like the Grim Reaper
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> what was it called again
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> Asphyx or so
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> nasaspaceflight is fun
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=13020.255
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> 123 pages of crazyness
[21:48] <Babs> The victorians could do basically anything with common household ingredients.
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> the thread title is the first joke
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[21:49] <Babs> If Macgyver was impressive in the 1980s, imagine a Victorian Macgyver. He would be off the scale in terms of ingenuity.
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> lol steering satellites using their solar panels?
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[22:30] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> talking of crazy...
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> "In January 2013 EEStor released a press release that included test results of four samples of dielectric layers tested by System Engineering and Laboratories ("SEAL"). One sample showed a permittivity of 162,291 and an energy density (dielectric layer only) of 73.90 (W.h/L)"
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> am i being stupid or is that really lame?
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> 266KJ/L
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[22:41] <chrisstubbs> Cool, my RFM temperature frequency compensation code works. I just dont think you can tune the frequency finley enough to get a smooth waterfall. very jumpy atm
[22:42] <chrisstubbs> time for sleep though, night!
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[22:46] <SpeedEvil> And note they quote W.h/L
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> presumably that's 25W.h/kg
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> Which doesn't even beat lead acid.
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[22:54] <Laurenceb_> yeah exactly
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[00:00] --- Fri May 24 2013