highaltitude.log.20130513

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[01:33] <heathkid> Upu...
[01:33] <heathkid> how do I get one of these from you? http://rfhead.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/DSC_7956.jpg
[01:33] <heathkid> oh, timestamp... too late...
[01:39] <Darkside> err
[01:39] <Darkside> heathkid: the pico boards are not for sale
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[05:40] <Upu> hey heathkid yes sorry not for sale
[05:57] <nigelvh> Morning Upu
[05:57] <Upu> hey nigelvh
[05:58] <nigelvh> Point of curiosity, the recommended bypass cap on those ublox modules is just a 0.1uF right?
[05:58] <Upu> yeah thats what I use
[05:58] <nigelvh> K
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[06:22] <KT5TK> PecanPico3 (serial # 2) is now doing all APRS: http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FKT5TK-2&timerange=3600&tail=3600
[06:22] <costyn_> jarod: Maxell has one of those mini dvb sticks. It drifts a lot until it gets to working temperature
[06:22] <KT5TK> Having a test run over night now.
[06:24] Nick change: costyn_ -> costyn
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[06:36] <Majed> hi and good morning everyone
[06:36] <Majed> has anyone used GoPro HERO3 in HAB yet?
[06:37] <costyn> Majed: hello again
[06:37] <costyn> Majed: I believe so yes
[06:37] <Majed> hi costyn nice to see you after a while
[06:37] <costyn> Majed: cuddykid
[06:37] <costyn> (the name of the guy, if I remember right)
[06:37] <costyn> (well, his nickname)
[06:37] <Majed> i am launching my second HAB and bought 2 HERO3 but it seems the battery lasts much less compared to HERO2
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[06:41] <Darkside> don't use the internal battery
[06:42] <Darkside> use an external battery pack with a 5v regulator, and have that plugged into the gopro
[06:42] <Darkside> that works fine on the HD Hero 2, should work on the Hero 3 too
[06:43] <UpuWork> extended battery pack lasts longer than the 32Gb SD
[06:43] <UpuWork> or can you use larger SD's in the new one ?
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[06:44] <UpuWork> must be able too I doubt 32Gb is going to go far @ 4k
[06:45] <nigelvh_> KT5TK, what call sign you using again?
[06:45] <fsphil> you can get 256Gb SD cards now. insane
[06:45] <KT5TK> KT5TK-2
[06:46] <nigelvh_> Nice negative altitude
[06:46] <Majed> Darkside, could you plz provide link to external baterry pack
[06:47] <KT5TK> Because I calculate the altitude from pressure
[06:47] <nigelvh_> Ah
[06:47] <nigelvh_> Makes sense
[06:47] <Darkside> Majed: there is no link, we just made one
[06:47] <nigelvh_> You using a BMP085?
[06:47] <Majed> oh, how did you make it?
[06:47] <Darkside> err
[06:47] <KT5TK> I could define a P0 for reference
[06:47] <Darkside> 6xAA holder, some kind of 5v regulator
[06:47] <Darkside> and whatever usb cable the thing needs
[06:47] <Darkside> i think the HD Hero 2's use a Mini-B plug
[06:47] <KT5TK> Yes, BMP085
[06:48] <Majed> any link to 6xAA holder?
[06:48] <Darkside> err
[06:48] <Darkside> no
[06:48] <Majed> and 5v regulator
[06:48] <Darkside> local electronics store
[06:48] <nigelvh_> Do you have all the formulas in there to calc alt? Above 17km or so the low one won't be accurate anymore.
[06:48] <nigelvh_> Generally when I calc baro alt I also list GPS alt.
[06:48] <nigelvh_> To give a comparison.
[06:49] <KT5TK> Yes, above 17k or so the error gets high. I have pressure vs. GPS altitude data though. So I will make my own formula
[06:50] <costyn> Majed: Darkside means you have to make it yourself with a bit of electronics knowledge
[06:50] <nigelvh_> Point of curiosity, is there a particular aversion to just using the GPS alt?
[06:51] <Majed> costyn: i know
[06:51] <Majed> but i do not have electronic knowledge nor the parts
[06:51] <KT5TK> No, above 1000 ft I do use GPS
[06:52] <Majed> tried it on my first launch and could not come up with someth9ing
[06:53] <nigelvh_> Hmm
[06:54] <nigelvh_> Alright, well evening time for me. Chat with you later. Congrats on getting v3 working.
[06:55] <costyn> Majed: http://www.instructables.com/id/5v-Regulator/
[06:56] <KT5TK> Tnks. I've found GPS to be pretty inaccurate for altitude near the ground because of reflections. Therefore I use the pressure sensor which I have anyways on board.
[06:56] <costyn> Majed: hook up batteries to 1 side, mini-usb to the other, and that's it
[06:56] <Majed> Costyn: always helpful
[06:56] <Majed> many thanks my friend
[06:56] <costyn> Majed: you can buy these components for very little money on ebay
[06:56] <Majed> owe you one for this, and one for my first launch :)
[06:57] <costyn> Majed: no worries... we like to help eachother out here, we all started from scratch
[06:57] <Majed> costyn: alright
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[06:57] <costyn> Majed: it's easier to get them at a local electronics shop, but I'm not sure if you have one
[06:58] <Majed> costyn: the internet is my local store :)
[06:58] <costyn> Majed: as for the mini usb, i would just take an existing usb->usb-mini cable, cut it open and find the red and black wires. easiest way to figure out which is + and -
[06:59] <Majed> will go through instructables, buy the componenets, revert back to you if questions arise :0
[06:59] <Majed> thanks costyn
[07:00] <costyn> Majed: sure... there are quite a few instructables designs for 5v regulators: http://www.instructables.com/id/Mini-Portable-5V-with-USB-A-port/
[07:12] <Majed> costyn: the gopro battery is 3.8v not 5v!!! will 5v regulator work?
[07:12] <UpuWork> it charges off 5B though Majed
[07:12] <UpuWork> 5V
[07:13] <Majed> it wont damage the battery right?
[07:13] <UpuWork> you're just supplying 5V as if its coming from a PC USB
[07:13] <Majed> alright
[07:13] <Majed> got it
[07:13] <Majed> thanks
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[07:16] <costyn> yep
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[08:17] <Majed> costyn: are u there?
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[08:20] <costyn> Majed: yes
[08:21] <Majed> i have found this on amazon
[08:21] <Majed> http://www.amazon.com/HOSSEN%C2%AE-Converter-Power-Supply-Module/dp/B00A71CMDU/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1368432491&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=12v+to+5v+regulator
[08:21] <Majed> is it suitable ?
[08:22] <costyn> Majed: yes, but it's too powerful... that is, you don't need that many amps
[08:22] <costyn> Majed: and I'm not sure if 6AA's = 12v
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[08:24] <Majed> it hink they are 12v: http://www.amazon.com/BestDealUSA-Battery-Holder-Cover-Switch/dp/B00AQQNWMQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368432455&sr=8-1&keywords=6+x+aa+battery+holder
[08:25] <Majed> costyn
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[08:27] <mfa298> 6xAA would normally be around 9v (1xAA is 1.5v)
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[08:28] <mfa298> rechargeable AA cells are usually less, and non rechargeable cells may start off slightly higher than 1.5v and drop to lower as they're used.
[08:28] <mfa298> Majed: ^^
[08:28] <Majed> lol what does that mean?
[08:29] <gonzo__> that was an odd weekend. No launches!
[08:29] <mfa298> Majed: the ^^ was to indicate the lines I wrote above were for you.
[08:29] <Majed> yeah i know
[08:30] <Majed> i was referring to your previous message
[08:30] <Majed> 6 x AA batteries would total 12 v
[08:30] <Majed> right?
[08:30] <mfa298> 6xAA is unlikely to ever be 12V as that would require each cell to be 2 V
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[08:31] <mfa298> 6xAA would normally be around 9V (6 x 1.5 = 9)
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[08:31] <gonzo__> on the subject of batts voltages, anyone know what the effects are of temp on the energiser batts (L91/92) voltage curve?
[08:31] <Majed> have a look at this, it says 12v
[08:31] <Majed> http://www.amazon.com/BestDealUSA-Battery-Holder-Cover-Switch/dp/B00AQQNWMQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368433878&sr=8-1&keywords=6+x+aa+battery+holder
[08:31] <mfa298> for 12V you need 8 cells (12 / 1.5)
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[08:32] <mfa298> It also says in the title it holds 6 cells and in the information below says it holds 4 cells.
[08:33] <Majed> i am not an expert, what does that mean?
[08:33] <gonzo__> just saw that too. A very confused ad
[08:33] <gonzo__> means the seller either has no clue, or is very careless placing the ads
[08:34] <Majed> will this voltage converter work http://www.amazon.com/HOSSEN%C2%AE-Converter-Power-Supply-Module/dp/B00A71CMDU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368434015&sr=8-1&keywords=12v+to+5v+converter
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[08:34] <mfa298> It would but you'll need more AA batteries
[08:35] <Majed> so 6xAA battery holder would render how many volts?
[08:35] <mfa298> 9V
[08:36] <Majed> so i need a 9v to 5v voltage converter right?
[08:36] <mfa298> for an alkaline battery each battery will be 1.5V
[08:36] <joph> why not using lipo?
[08:36] <mfa298> or more batteries
[08:36] <Majed> alright
[08:36] <joph> 1,6V if they're completly full
[08:36] <gonzo__> what's the application?
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[08:36] <costyn> gonzo__: powering a gopro
[08:36] <joph> lipo!
[08:36] <costyn> 5v though the usb connector
[08:36] <gonzo__> in flight?
[08:36] <Majed> power Gopro Cam
[08:37] <Majed> i need to extend record time
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[08:38] <mfa298> that convertor states impuy voltage of 8-23v so 8AA batteries would give around 12V when full, as they discharge it should stay above the required so it will keep working.
[08:38] <gonzo__> There are lots of cheap switching regulators on ebay, rated about 1amp (ish) that would be lighter and a bit more compact
[08:38] <joph> probaply 3 batterys in a row would be enough ;)
[08:39] <costyn> gonzo__: Majed has no electronics experience, so he's trying to find ready made solutions :)
[08:39] <Babs> Majed - use an itrent - it more than covers the space on the GoPro card, you can keep it inside the capsule where it will be warm and it saves on faffage of building your own, you don't need a voltage convertor and its not particularly heavy. I used one here and it worked perfectly. The card ran out after 4 hrs 30 and the thing was still going. http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/sets/72157629918448066/
[08:39] <joph> http://dx.com/p/micro-usb-rechargeable-2200mah-emergency-power-battery-black-122720
[08:39] <joph> get one of these
[08:39] <joph> should be the best solution
[08:39] <gonzo__> the ebay ones are same as the amazon one posted. Just are a bare board, rather than an epoxy potted one with wires
[08:40] <Babs> joph has the same solution by the look of it
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[08:41] <Majed> costyn: i have one of these emergency power supply
[08:41] <Majed> will test them
[08:41] <costyn> Majed: yea try in the freezer or something; or coolbox with dry ice
[08:41] <joph> should be the best solution cause they already have a good case
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[08:42] <Majed> but the problem is they are not reliable. sometimes they drain power for no reason.
[08:42] <joph> http://dx.com/p/2-x-18650-powered-backup-battery-case-w-1-led-usb-port-for-cell-phone-more-white-129750
[08:46] <Majed> Babs: you had to get a crane to reach out tot he payload. that must have been frustrating
[08:46] <Majed> lol
[08:47] <Babs> The problem is, most people don't prepare, and don't add a JCB to their pre-launch checklist. Amateurs ;-)
[08:48] <costyn> Babs: haha
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[08:48] <Babs> Seriously though, how lucky to land within 10m of a guy with a JCB with an extendable arm
[08:48] <costyn> haha
[08:48] <Gadget-Work> Upu, UpuWork around ?
[08:48] <Babs> Although by the same token, I did find the only line of trees for hundreds of metres around.
[08:48] <UpuWork> hi Gadget-Mac
[08:48] <Majed> anyways guys, got to go do my daily workout routine. need to get weight off my bellyt
[08:49] <Majed> thanks for the support
[08:49] <Majed> very usefull
[08:49] <Majed> bye
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[08:50] <Gadget-Work> UpuWork, so the ADS-B SAW filterd habamp has come to reality then :)
[08:50] <UpuWork> well soon(TM)
[08:51] <UpuWork> I made a balls up on the first PCB
[08:51] <Gadget-Work> :(
[08:51] <UpuWork> so new ones are in manufacturer now
[08:51] <UpuWork> it was a quick fix
[08:51] <Gadget-Work> Any idea on price ?
[08:51] <eroomde> bodge wires are an important part of it
[08:51] <UpuWork> well depends do you want it in a case ?
[08:51] <Gadget-Work> Whats the difference ?
[08:52] <UpuWork> eroomde was more an issue of couldn't actually solder the SAW filter on :)
[08:52] <UpuWork> About £6 or something
[08:52] <Gadget-Work> Do I get a discount for having the idea in the first place ?
[08:52] <UpuWork> no :)
[08:52] <UpuWork> Do you use ADS-B ?
[08:52] <Gadget-Work> Pah, talk about profiting from others IP
[08:52] <UpuWork> Well I do need someone to test it
[08:52] <Gadget-Work> UpuWork, Yes.
[08:53] <UpuWork> so I might send you one to play with
[08:53] <Gadget-Work> Now that would be cool :)
[08:53] <UpuWork> just need to check it all works
[08:53] <UpuWork> brb phone
[08:53] <eroomde> why the ads-b love?
[08:53] <eroomde> just to spot the near misses? :)
[08:53] <Gadget-Work> eroomde, why not
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[08:55] <fsphil> ads-b seems to be like aprs, only you can't join in
[08:55] <Babs> Question: Is it normal for my 2000g hwoyee to weight 2200g? Admittedly I haven't take it out of the bag, so there may be a few g there and with the tissue paper, but it will still be north of the 2000g and I wonder how it might affect the volume of helium I need
[08:56] <eroomde> you know, i've actually never weighed a balloon before
[08:56] <eroomde> in all ym years
[08:56] <Babs> Should I just add the delta between the actual balloon weight and the 2000g nameplate weight to compensate, or is there some tolerance pre built into the burst and ascent calcs?
[08:56] <fsphil> I weighted a 1000g balloon when posting it, and it came out as 1200g
[08:56] <fsphil> and i'm pretty sure the plastic bag didn't add the 200g
[08:57] <Babs> You can't take anything to seriously eroomde http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/7329580894/in/set-72157629918448066
[08:57] <Babs> Interesting fsphil (or as interesting as discussing balloon weights on a monday morning can be anyway)
[08:57] <eroomde> nice
[08:57] <daveake> fsphil Similar here - Weighed a 1200 and it came to 1385
[08:57] <Babs> I would have thought yours should have been 1100 on the same basis
[08:58] <daveake> I weighed a couple before that and they were very close to spec
[08:58] <gonzo__> fsphil, you should have put some he in to get it to 1000gm
[08:58] <fsphil> would've had to use a bigger box
[08:58] <Babs> I'm concentrating a lot on the ascent rate at the mo, my last one went up like a rubber dinghy
[08:59] <fsphil> sadly the royal mail don't give discounts for negative weights either
[08:59] <gonzo__> put a stamp on the balloon and release it
[09:00] <Babs> Maybe I'll just add another 100g to my nameplate payload weight and instead go all "Marilyn Lovell" when its up there "That's my balloon and you can ask it yourself, it'll be down in a couple of hours"
[09:06] <Gadget-Work> UpuWork, guess you'll need some details off me
[09:09] <oh7lzb> Launching a floater box to mail might provide a challenge to the sorting & handling robots
[09:13] <UpuWork> no rush Gadget-Mac
[09:13] <UpuWork> wait till they are back from fab
[09:13] <UpuWork> ping nigelvh
[09:14] Action: SpeedEvil has pondered a stamped addressed device that can fly into postboxes as a recovery method.
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[09:20] <Gadget-Work> UpuWork, ok. Will plan to install it in the externally mounted box
[09:23] <UpuWork> yeah PCB is designed for the Hammond box
[09:23] <Gadget-Work> Got a URL for the Pic again ?
[09:23] <UpuWork> in fairness Darkside and I have been chatting about it for months, ever since jarod turned up asking about antennas for ADS-B
[09:23] Nick change: Matt_soton -> mattbrejza
[09:23] <UpuWork> http://imgur.com/a/yyfXV
[09:23] <Gadget-Work> Need to look at best RTL dongle again, but will talk to jarod about it
[09:24] <UpuWork> its a modification of his board that lets you select what power you want via some jumpers
[09:24] <UpuWork> also we moved the amp in front of the saw
[09:24] <Gadget-Work> Sure, looks good.
[09:25] <UpuWork> only problem is the Golledge SAW filter cases are fractionally larger than the EPCOS ones
[09:25] <UpuWork> so they don't quite fix on the pads I'd done
[09:25] <SpeedEvil> saw it down.
[09:25] <UpuWork> good job we don't kick for bad jokes
[09:26] <Gadget-Work> UpuWork, ok.
[09:26] <jonsowman> don't count on it >.>
[09:26] <UpuWork> http://i.imgur.com/4VDTYlV.png
[09:26] <UpuWork> thats the new one
[09:27] <Gadget-Work> Very nice.
[09:27] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[09:27] <Gadget-Work> Glad it's finally happened.
[09:27] <SpeedEvil> why saw after amp?
[09:27] <SpeedEvil> better matching?
[09:28] <UpuWork> lowers the NF
[09:28] <UpuWork> and you gain 2db on the reciever side
[09:28] <UpuWork> apparently
[09:28] Nick change: cm13g09_ -> cm13g09
[09:28] <UpuWork> Darkside did it the other way round as he was interesting in clearing up powerful local signals i.e APRS in the car
[09:29] <Darkside> yep
[09:29] <oh7lzb> My ADS-B receiver has gone a bit deaf, have to try a rtlsdr soon.
[09:29] <UpuWork> but for a fixed base antenna use its better this way round
[09:29] <Gadget-Work> Power jumpers look good. Reduced your effort as well
[09:29] <oh7lzb> A preamp would be useful.
[09:29] <cm13g09> gah - this morning's netsplit caused my client to re-order all its channels!
[09:29] <UpuWork> so much easier to make yes
[09:29] <UpuWork> just put everything on the board
[09:30] <UpuWork> job done
[09:30] <Gadget-Work> Yup. Love it
[09:30] <UpuWork> anyway when its in, one is going to Darkside for running through the VNA
[09:30] <Gadget-Work> VNA ?
[09:30] <UpuWork> vector network analyser
[09:31] <Gadget-Work> Ah ok
[09:31] <UpuWork> should prove its doing what it is meant too at 1090Mhz
[09:32] <Gadget-Work> Always good to know
[09:42] <Gadget-Work> Can you make a version that can switch the amp out ?
[09:44] <Darkside> no
[09:44] <Darkside> not easily
[09:44] <UpuWork> you could put an RF switch in
[09:44] <Darkside> would increase the complexity
[09:44] <UpuWork> but you're going to introduce some loss
[09:44] <Darkside> it wouldn't make it suitable for transmit
[09:47] <Gadget-Work> No, but useful to allow you switch out when interested in more local transmitters
[09:48] <Darkside> unless its local as in 10m away, the extra 20db of gain wont matter
[09:49] <Darkside> thats what your receivers AGC is for
[09:50] Action: Gadget-Work orders more RTL dongles
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[10:13] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve "[UKHAS] Re: Decoding RTTY tips"
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[10:49] <griffonbot> Received email: Richard "[UKHAS] What comes with cylinders?"
[10:51] <gonzo__> an invoice and a monthly rental charge?
[10:52] <fsphil> back pain
[10:53] <costyn> bwhaha
[10:53] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] What comes with cylinders?"
[10:53] <cuddykid> sometimes no helium, or 1/2 empty
[10:53] <mattbrejza> a large invoice
[10:54] <daveake> And, when the BOC man puts a h2 cylinder 6" behind your back as you're looking the other way, brown trousers
[10:57] <gonzo__> it is when you knock it over!
[10:57] <gonzo__> that's a bicycle clips job
[10:57] <daveake> I nearly did
[10:58] <daveake> Managed to wrap my arm round it as it started to topple
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[11:13] <gonzo__> if the bottle left their yard at speed, you you still have to pay for it?
[11:13] <gonzo__> (apart from a laundry bill)
[11:14] <Laurenceb> how can i shrink an eps file?
[11:15] <Laurenceb> ive got a huge graphic that wont convert to a single pdf page :S
[11:16] <Laurenceb> convert is rasterizing it
[11:16] <Randomskk> inkscape?
[11:17] <Laurenceb> cant import it as a single page
[11:17] <Laurenceb> maybe pstoedit?
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[11:26] <Laurenceb> lol segfault
[11:26] <Laurenceb> but it worked ok
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[11:34] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] What comes with cylinders?"
[11:37] <costyn> woa... that fuel cell thing is pretty cool
[11:37] <costyn> didn't know there were consumer products using hydrogen fuel cells yet
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[11:44] <oakdenalan> Hi. Created a new payload document and flight document for payload sci1 (call sign sci-1). Hoping for a May 15th Launch weather permitting. Just asking for Approval, thanks.
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[11:49] <Randomskk> oakdenalan: do you have the document ID for that flight doc?
[11:49] <Randomskk> oakdenalan: no worries, found it
[11:49] <Randomskk> approved
[11:49] <oakdenalan> ahh thankyou very much
[11:50] <costyn> oakdenalan: where are you located?
[11:50] <oakdenalan> We will be launching from Elvington Airfield near York
[11:50] <oakdenalan> think its the largest runway in the UK
[11:50] <oakdenalan> same place where richard hammond crashed and was badly injured
[11:50] <costyn> oakdenalan: interesting
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[11:52] <oakdenalan> Think currently if we cant launch this Wednesday then we're looking at Monday 20th May
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[11:55] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] What comes with cylinders?"
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[11:57] <griffonbot> Received email: gonzo_ "Re: [UKHAS] What comes with cylinders?"
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[12:42] <Laurenceb> holy shit
[12:42] <Laurenceb> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
[12:42] <Laurenceb> attn eroomde
[12:42] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] What comes with cylinders?"
[12:42] <Laurenceb> that front end looks familiar
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[12:44] <Laurenceb> yeah based off Matjaž Vidmar
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[12:47] <SpeedEvil_> as I understand it., the pi can be setup to do DMA in
[12:47] <SpeedEvil_> so, you could do it considerably more integrated
[12:47] <SpeedEvil_> without the FPGA
[12:47] <Laurenceb> looks like slightly silly overkill in places
[12:47] <Laurenceb> maybe...
[12:48] <SpeedEvil_> in principle, gpus could be very useful for advanced decode
[12:48] <Laurenceb> i dont know if rpi is fast enough on its own
[12:48] <Laurenceb> yeah
[12:48] <SpeedEvil_> but alas not on the pi
[12:48] <Laurenceb> in theory...
[12:48] <Laurenceb> stm32f4 is borderline fast enough with some clever asm
[12:48] <Laurenceb> but rpi is arm11
[12:48] <Laurenceb> which isnt nearly as nice for that sort of stuff
[12:48] <Laurenceb> even if its much faster
[12:49] <Laurenceb> but he could just grab a skyworks or maxim frontend
[12:49] <Laurenceb> far simpler
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[12:51] <Laurenceb> i should get my doppler fitting code running...
[12:52] <Laurenceb> too much work atm :(
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[13:05] <SpeedEvil_> doesn't pi have neon?
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[13:09] <Laurenceb> http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/dsp-simd.php
[13:09] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah
[13:10] <Laurenceb> Dual 16x16 multiply-add/subtract 32x32 fractional MAC
[13:19] <Laurenceb> at 1GHz thats got to be able to do a lot
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[13:37] <Babs> More revolutionary from a regulatory point of view rather than technologically http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22511395
[13:37] <Babs> but still....
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[13:39] <prawnsalad> s
[13:39] <prawnsalad> woops
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[13:50] <gonzo__> hmmm, the UAV makes sense in military situations, but large unmanned ac in civil airspace, not sure how it's justified.
[13:50] <gonzo__> the pilot is hardly a major cost.
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[13:51] <gonzo__> and it's all about what happens if things go wrong.
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[13:55] <costyn> gonzo__: yea wonder what applications they want to use it for. I'd hardly think there would be paying passengers wanting to take a ride on a pilotless plane :)
[13:55] <costyn> gonzo__: maybe for aerosurveys or meteorological measurements
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[13:57] <gonzo__> yep, remote sensing drones is an application. But I'd not be happy with full size ac up there on their own
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[13:58] <gonzo__> when things go pear shaped, it needs someone in there to feel what the ac is doing. The feedback that a ground based pilot would not have
[13:58] <costyn> true
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[13:59] <costyn> on the other hand, would be more inclined to trust the instruments; I've seen enough documentaries where the pilot doesn't trust the instruments that were telling them the correct thing (artificial horizon) where the plane ended up crashing
[13:59] <costyn> but of course there are always multiple things going on in such a situation
[14:00] <gonzo__> disorientation in cloud is common
[14:00] <gonzo__> done it myself (just in the 2nd seat)
[14:01] <gonzo__> but they have multiple instruments, to tell you the same thing. Using differebt tech, to avoid single point failure
[14:01] <gonzo__> but pilot error will happen remote or onboard
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[14:04] <costyn> yep
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[14:28] <oakdenalan> Hi
[14:28] Nick change: wibble -> Guest9648
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[14:31] <Guest13344> Received email: Chris Stubbs "[UKHAS] Re: Solar Pico project."
[14:31] <oakdenalan> Earlier on i got a payload document and flight document approved for the http://spacenear.us/tracker/ it seems to have already started displaying using our test parse, could the 11.11 parse please be removed as the project isnt being launched till wednesday 15th May at the earliest!
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[14:32] <costyn> oakdenalan: well at least you know that bit works :)
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[14:33] <mfa298> oakdenalan: testing data gets put onto the map currently but someone will probably clear all the test payloads off before your flight.
[14:34] <mfa298> it's probably also worth emailing the flight details to the list that way you'll hopefully get listeners and someone that can will hopefully update the details on the map and make a note to clear it.
[14:34] Nick change: bfirsh_ -> bfirsh
[14:34] <oakdenalan> ahh ok excellent. So long as we aren't confusing people, will mail the list soon. thanks
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[14:35] <mfa298> I think all the other balloons on there are test payloads as well.
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[15:00] <Darkside> mazzanet: !
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[15:00] <Darkside> wat
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[15:36] <Guest13344> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Decoding RTTY tips"
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[15:40] <Guest13344> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Decoding RTTY tips"
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[15:43] <Guest13344> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Decoding RTTY tips"
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[15:43] <UpuWork> haha
[15:43] <UpuWork> I think the identity of Guest13344 isn't up for question
[15:44] <daveake> :)
[15:46] <mattbrejza> i think just a recording of the RTTY should solve this
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[16:06] <Guest13344> Received email: Alan Oakden "[UKHAS] First Launch - Sci1"
[16:07] <fsphil> op north
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[16:08] <fsphil> notam in place. nice
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[16:19] <arko> morning
[16:19] <chrisstubbs> hey arko
[16:19] <arko> sssupp
[16:20] <chrisstubbs> just hooking the ntx2 up to the pi
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[16:20] <chrisstubbs> i stupily soldered it to some stripboard instead of putting it in breadboard just tp play with, so i soldered some header onto the breadboard too
[16:21] <chrisstubbs> as i figured it was easier to remove the header than the ntx2 :P
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[16:21] <chrisstubbs> oh i soldered the header onto the stripboard not the breadboard. brain inst with it today if you cant tell
[16:22] <arko> hah
[16:23] <arko> http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/msss/00270/mhli/0270MH0254001000C0_DXXX.jpg
[16:23] <arko> check this out
[16:24] <chrisstubbs> ooh
[16:24] <chrisstubbs> is that a sample for the chemcam thing?
[16:25] <arko> well it was drilled and sampled
[16:25] <arko> this was a picture taken of the drilled hole showing the veins
[16:26] <chrisstubbs> oh wow i didnt notice the veins at first
[16:26] <arko> yeah thats the big deal
[16:26] <chrisstubbs> :P
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[16:27] <arko> now we wait for SAM and CheMin data
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[16:29] <arko> oh yeah, the dots inside the hole are chemcam
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[16:45] <Babs> Arko - do you know, (outside of all the hardware mods to get it rugged enough to operate overseas), how much higher spec are the internals of those cameras in terms of resolution etc. vs. the ones you can buy at a professional level?
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[16:45] <arko> which camera?
[16:46] <arko> MastCam (the one on it's head) or MAHLI (the one on it's hand)
[16:47] <eroomde> Randomskk: Optimal STate Estimation by Dan Simon
[16:47] <eroomde> quite good
[16:47] <eroomde> util Appendix C
[16:47] <eroomde> where he tries to prove the existence of god from a bayesian point of view
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[16:48] <eroomde> he completely goes off on one
[16:48] <arko> HAHAHA
[16:48] <eroomde> subheadings are things like 'Forgiveness and Noise Suprewssion'
[16:48] <eroomde> it's quite extraordinary
[16:48] <arko> if there was a quote bot, i would submit
[16:48] <arko> <eroomde> where he tries to prove the existence of god from a bayesian point of view
[16:48] <Randomskk> haha excellent
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[16:49] <arko> eroomde: have your read Stengel's book on optimal control and estimation?
[16:49] <arko> Kirk has a good book too
[16:49] <eroomde> nope
[16:49] <eroomde> i have kirk
[16:50] <arko> http://www.amazon.com/Optimal-Control-Theory-Introduction-Engineering/dp/0486434842/ref=pd_sim_b_5
[16:50] <arko> yeah
[16:51] Nick change: x-f_ -> x-f
[16:51] <arko> Babs: they are very low resolution compared to the market
[16:52] <arko> if i recall correctly they are like 2MP or something
[16:52] <arko> but VERY high quality CCD's
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[16:52] <arko> filters
[16:52] <arko> physical color wheel
[16:52] <Babs> Arko: Is that because they were designed 6 or 7 years ago, and the technology has moved on apace since then?
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[16:53] <arko> yes and no
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[16:54] <Babs> The best photos I have of that kind of thing are this guys http://www.michaellight.net/workFullMoon.html
[16:55] <Babs> If you've been in the Hayden planetarium on central park west they are all there
[16:56] <Babs> He got permission to get the original apollo negatives out of cold store and scan them in at a res better than the grain of the negatives (which themselves are 10cm by 10cm whoppers.
[16:56] <Babs> most of the moon photos which are round are p@nts because they are 2nd or 3rd duplicates because no one was allowed to touch the originals because of the historical significance of it all
[16:57] <arko> so tCCD's on the market are different from CCD's on spacecraft, the CCD's are special and custom made, the technology behind making a CCD that can survive really harsh radiation (without getting pixels knocked out) and huge temperature swings without requring heating is a different ball park
[16:57] <jarod> Upu-
[16:57] <jarod> http://x264.nl/dump/131.150mhz-2013-05-13-airband-discone-clean.jpg
[16:57] <jarod> no need for lna :P
[16:58] <arko> also with a zoom lens and higher quality ccd your pictures come out great at a decent 1200x1600
[16:59] <arko> if you need more, just take more pictures zoomed in, and stiched them together
[17:00] <Babs> ahhh, ok. Makes sense. And presumably the CCD developer is competing with the mast developer, the wheel developer, the rocket developer etc. for a tiny slice of the overall budget
[17:00] <arko> yeah
[17:00] <arko> the technology is different and specialize, costs and arm and leg to do anything
[17:00] <Guest13344> Received email: Henry Hallam "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Decoding RTTY tips"
[17:01] <Babs> Whereas Canon can just say."we need an 25 megapixel CCD and we know we are going to sell a million of the things, so lets put £5m aside to make it happen" in a way that the spaceflight guys can't
[17:01] <arko> onboard there are the equivalent PPC processors as the old Apple G3 powermacs
[17:01] <arko> but they are a very well known, documented, tested, and radiation hardened version that can run the custom RTOS
[17:01] <arko> also, it's not running Skyrim or Crysis or some steam game
[17:02] <arko> ;)
[17:02] <arko> doesn't need all that computing power
[17:02] <arko> also, taking todays products and getting them reeady for space takes time
[17:02] <chrisstubbs> Half the reason specialist CCD's cost that much is the testing
[17:02] <Babs> Similar to that supercomputer (I forget which one) which is running off hundreds of PS3 processors.
[17:02] <chrisstubbs> they have to build an entire camera around it
[17:03] <arko> i wish they release the board files for the msl computer
[17:03] <arko> i'd totally build one and make my own
[17:03] Action: arko talks like he's go money
[17:03] <arko> got*
[17:04] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid, quick ntx2/pi question
[17:04] <arko> OH!
[17:04] <arko> also forgot
[17:04] <cuddykid> shoot chrisstubbs :)
[17:04] <arko> exact color
[17:04] <arko> getting correct color
[17:04] <Babs> In terms of hours spent, my carbon fibre SLR cage was totally uneconomic to build for a production run of 1.
[17:04] <arko> for science
[17:04] <chrisstubbs> or anyone else that can help. It seems to keep drifting in and out of sync
[17:04] <chrisstubbs> http://i.imgur.com/sAik2CA.png
[17:04] <arko> Babs: http://msl-scicorner.jpl.nasa.gov/Instruments/Mastcam/
[17:04] <chrisstubbs> just testing at 50b becuase it crapped itself at 300
[17:04] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: have you set stop bits at 2?
[17:05] <chrisstubbs> on the pi?
[17:05] <cuddykid> yep
[17:05] <cuddykid> I had that before daveake told me to set them at 2
[17:05] <chrisstubbs> no! lets figure out how to do that
[17:05] <cuddykid> using PySerial?
[17:05] <chrisstubbs> yeah
[17:05] <cuddykid> one mo
[17:05] <Babs> Shooting in RAW. Sensible.
[17:06] <arko> well yeah
[17:06] <chrisstubbs> got rtty = serial.Serial("/dev/ttyAMA0", 50) at the mod
[17:06] <chrisstubbs> *mo
[17:06] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: ser = serial.Serial("/dev/ttyAMA0", 300, serial.EIGHTBITS, serial.PARITY_NONE, serial.STOPBITS_TWO)
[17:06] <arko> science/postpros laterz
[17:06] <chrisstubbs> cheers man
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[17:06] <cuddykid> no probs
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[17:07] <chrisstubbs> also the voltage seems to keep dropping when the pi does somthing and sends the ntx2 off frequency
[17:07] <chrisstubbs> i added some caps accross the voltage input but not help
[17:07] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: I've found that too - fortunately it's not affecting RTTY decoding though
[17:07] <cuddykid> goes all over the place when I ssh in etc :P
[17:07] <cuddykid> but decoding seems to hold fine
[17:08] <chrisstubbs> also, do you check the serial output buffer is clear before sending the next packet?
[17:08] <chrisstubbs> the serial output seems to carry o0n for ages after i terminate the python scripts
[17:08] <cuddykid> no, I just keep ramming the packets down the serial
[17:08] <cuddykid> yep, same here
[17:08] <chrisstubbs> lol
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[17:10] <chrisstubbs> the frequency drifts seem to be affecting the decoding over here
[17:10] <chrisstubbs> moar caps?
[17:10] <cuddykid> just need to figure out how to run the script properly from start up then I'm all sorted
[17:10] <cuddykid> hm
[17:11] <chrisstubbs> windows startup folder would be perfect here haha
[17:11] <chrisstubbs> did the massive delay not work?
[17:11] <cuddykid> perhaps try 300 baud? don't think I tried 50 at all
[17:11] <cuddykid> haven't tried it yet
[17:11] <chrisstubbs> might be worth a go!
[17:11] <cuddykid> last time I got started trying to figure out what was going wrong I spent a few hours tearing my hair out lol
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[17:12] <chrisstubbs> yeah will do now, the stop bits seem to be working a treat
[17:12] <cuddykid> good
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[17:12] <chrisstubbs> im constantly backing my code up to a usb drive now since my last 2 sd cards self destructed
[17:12] <cuddykid> tell me about it - I hate the unreliability of the thing
[17:13] <cuddykid> I just work on copy locally then scp updated script over to pi
[17:13] <chrisstubbs> will it blend?
[17:13] <cuddykid> hopefully
[17:13] <cuddykid> came close to blending mine
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[17:14] <cuddykid> reliability has seemed to improve after switching to an 8GB sandisk which I'm sure is a fake
[17:14] <chrisstubbs> my 4gb kingston from memorybits was stable until the case broke off in the stupid sd slot
[17:14] <chrisstubbs> how did they pick such a crappy one with no proper lock
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[17:15] <bertrik> chrisstubbs: I've had that happen twice already :)
[17:15] <cuddykid> it's ridiculous isn't it!
[17:15] <chrisstubbs> i would just cake it in solder and hot glue
[17:15] <chrisstubbs> but then i bet the card would corrupt and need a re install
[17:15] <bertrik> in my case it was just a little bit off the corner
[17:16] <chrisstubbs> bertrik, same, then the rest came off too
[17:16] <chrisstubbs> that corner is vital to having it make contact with the pins apparently
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[17:17] <Gadget-Mac> Ah jarod ping
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[17:17] <cuddykid> I am surprised they chose such a shoddy critical component
[17:17] <cuddykid> probably easier to solder or something
[17:17] <chrisstubbs> probably 0.01p cheaper
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[17:18] <KT5TK> Low-profile microSD card adapter for Raspberry Pi : http://www.adafruit.com/products/966
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[17:18] <cuddykid> yeah lol
[17:18] <chrisstubbs> suppose they have to draw the line somewhere with where to stop spending money
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[17:18] <chrisstubbs> KT5TK, thats pretty neat, but i read micro sd cards dont work as well somewhere
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[17:19] <Gadget-Mac> No problems with MicroSD cards here
[17:19] <chrisstubbs> hm may give that one a go then
[17:19] <chrisstubbs> shame i ordered a new full size sd last night :P
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[17:20] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid, 300b seems to work much better than 50b
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[17:20] <chrisstubbs> with the voltage dips
[17:20] <cuddykid> had a feeling it might do
[17:20] <Gadget-Mac> Would be nice if the next version of Pi had a proper uSD slot though
[17:20] <chrisstubbs> haha from the raspi site: Will it blend?
[17:20] <chrisstubbs> Yes. We have conducted extensive virtual simulations. No Raspberry Pis were harmed in the testing.
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[17:21] <cuddykid> I'm sure blendtec are on the job
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[17:25] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid, figured out how to wait until the buffer is empty
[17:25] <chrisstubbs> http://pyserial.sourceforge.net/pyserial_api.html#serial.Serial.flush
[17:26] <cuddykid> nice, thanks
[17:27] <cuddykid> going to mod my code as at the moment it's taking photos every ~30secs, and given the time it takes for an image to transmit (an eternity) there's a possibility a 'stale' or 5 minute old image :P might be transmitted
[17:27] <cuddykid> need to select one of the most recent
[17:27] <cuddykid> afk
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[17:32] <oSP9UOB_Tm> evening All
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[17:32] <Upu-> hi there
[17:33] <oSP9UOB_Tm> hi Upu :-)
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[17:33] <oSP9UOB_Tm> UPU: 24 grams for pico flight :-) http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pico/IMG_0123.JPG
[17:34] <oSP9UOB_Tm> http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pico/IMG_0125.JPG
[17:34] <oSP9UOB_Tm> http://sp9uob.verox.pl/pico/IMG_0127.JPG
[17:34] <Upu-> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/PAVA/IMG_1260.JPG
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[17:34] <oSP9UOB_Tm> I'm waiting for good weather
[17:34] <Upu-> you got me by 1g :)
[17:35] <eroomde> Someone should just comission an ASIC and end this once and for all
[17:35] <oSP9UOB_Tm> UPU my coax antenna is relatively heavy
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[17:36] <oSP9UOB_Tm> eroomde: but we still need power source :-)
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[17:36] <Upu-> oh the game was won by Matt ages ago
[17:36] <bertrik_> oSP9UOB_Tm: what kind of antenna design is that?
[17:37] <oSP9UOB_Tm> Upu: right, i saw - cpu with integrated RF
[17:37] <oSP9UOB_Tm> bertrik: its coax 1/2 lambda
[17:38] <oSP9UOB_Tm> bertrik: http://www.hamuniverse.com/w4bwsverticalbazooka.html
[17:39] <oSP9UOB_Tm> but it takes 3 grams. I dont have teflon coax by now
[17:40] <oSP9UOB_Tm> its better than UPU's groundplane - with 90 deg angle GP has about 18 ohm impedance
[17:40] <oSP9UOB_Tm> should have 135 deg
[17:41] <bertrik_> so with the "ground" plane folded slightly up?
[17:41] <Upu-> those will be bent up
[17:41] <Upu-> before launch
[17:42] <oSP9UOB_Tm> bertrik_: right, about 135 deg
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[17:47] <WILLdude> Hello
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[17:48] <Upu-> eveing will
[17:48] <qyx_> Upu-: how much standard party baloon lift? according to what i found it should be about 15g
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[17:48] <qyx_> *does
[17:48] <Upu-> hey qyx_ depends on the size
[17:49] <Upu-> 36" Qualatex can lift 30g with no issues
[17:49] <Upu-> not sure what the max lift is ~65g I suspect
[17:49] <qyx_> i mean rubber party ballon, about 20-30cm in diameter
[17:49] <qyx_> i found some calculator for that
[17:50] <Upu-> not sure never used those
[17:50] <qyx_> but i assume that it will burst early
[17:50] <Upu-> test it
[17:50] <WILLdude> Urgh
[17:51] <qyx_> i will see
[17:53] <jcoxon> qyx_, test it and report back, we can stick it on the wiki if you want
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[18:05] <chrisstubbs> yay! first SSDV pi image :)
[18:05] <chrisstubbs> brb dinnertime
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[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[18:45] <chrisstubbs> Evening lunar
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[18:54] <chrisstubbs> fsphil, what does [-t <percentage>] do on your ssdv encoder?
[18:58] <chrisstubbs> ah drop test, gotcha
[19:04] <fsphil> yea, was added to test the decoder
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[19:04] <chrisstubbs> ok cool
[19:05] <chrisstubbs> on fldigi ID is coming through as 0x01, is that right?
[19:07] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:07] <daveake> You need to set the ID in the call to SSDV
[19:08] <chrisstubbs> ssdv -c -c NSE -i 1 img.jpg ssdv.txt
[19:08] <chrisstubbs> is what i call
[19:08] <daveake> -i 1
[19:08] <daveake> That's why the ID is 1 :)
[19:08] <fsphil> yep
[19:08] <fsphil> you need to change that for each image
[19:08] <chrisstubbs> yeah it incements
[19:08] <fsphil> or the decoder will overwrite the old one
[19:08] <chrisstubbs> ooh image 2 is coming through
[19:09] <chrisstubbs> IT LIVES
[19:09] <daveake> There you go
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[19:09] <chrisstubbs> i just wanted to check if it should be 0x01 or just 1
[19:09] <fsphil> you once where blind but now you DV
[19:10] <fsphil> I'll probably change it in dl-fldigi to just a number
[19:10] <fsphil> rather than hexidecimal
[19:10] <fsphil> not sure why I did it that way now
[19:10] <chrisstubbs> ok, It dosent matter too much
[19:11] <cuddykid> having a nightmare with FETs again - probably brings back horrific memories for daveake
[19:11] <chrisstubbs> just wanted to make sure the imageID wasnt somehow chanign to hex in python
[19:11] <daveake> shudder
[19:11] <daveake> I never knew there were so many ways of wiring up 3 pins :p
[19:11] <cuddykid> can't believe I'm failing to simply control a higher voltage circuit (for cutdown) using a FET from the flight comp
[19:11] <fsphil> it's transmitted as a single byte in the header
[19:11] <cuddykid> neither!
[19:12] <daveake> Too high a Vth?
[19:12] <chrisstubbs> how many have you popped cuddykid? ;)
[19:12] <cuddykid> for some unknown reason, when I just have the voltmeter on the higher voltage it reads out 12.xx V as expected - working fine
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[19:13] <cuddykid> however, when I connect up the cutdown that higher voltage circuit now reads 0.1x V and slowly increases as time goes on! so strange
[19:13] <cuddykid> daveake: don't think so
[19:13] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: about 5 now :P
[19:13] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid, haha good times. I did the same just trying to drive an LED
[19:13] <cuddykid> don't understand why the voltage read out increases slowly as time goes on
[19:14] <cuddykid> need to bring back the good old relay
[19:14] <chrisstubbs> could it be to do with the input pin loating?
[19:14] <chrisstubbs> the gate pin
[19:14] <cuddykid> shouldn't be - it's either being written high or low by arduino
[19:14] <cuddykid> works fine when cutdown not hooked up to it
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander> cuddykid, what happened?
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> or wait
[19:15] <Lunar_Lander> what MOSFET do you have?
[19:15] <daveake> "written to" ... definitely an output is it?
[19:15] <cuddykid> http://hackerfriendly.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/irf540a.pdf
[19:15] <cuddykid> daveake: yeah
[19:15] <cuddykid> the old digitalWrite
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[19:16] <cuddykid> after setting the pin to output mode
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> and you got a 5V or 3.3V arduino?
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[19:16] <cuddykid> 3.3v
[19:16] <SP9UOB> 3.3v is too low for IRF 540
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> check out Fig 1
[19:16] <SP9UOB> it wont open
[19:16] <cuddykid> ah, there we go :P
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander> the lowest graph is for 4.5 V
[19:17] <cuddykid> opens with nothing but V meter connected - I guess that's to be expected though right?
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander> cuddykid, the one sold by sparkfun works at 3 V
[19:17] <daveake> I shall refer to my earlier post ... <daveake> Too high a Vth?
[19:17] <cuddykid> lol daveake -
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander> RFP30N06LE
[19:17] <cuddykid> times like these an engineering/electronics education would come in handy
[19:17] <cuddykid> cheers Lunar_Lander
[19:18] <SP9UOB> You need about 1V Ugs to full open
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[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> you're welcome
[19:18] <SP9UOB> You need about 10V Ugs to full open
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> thing is that if you open the MOSFET partially, the current encounters a big resistance inside
[19:18] <SP9UOB> ofcourse :-)
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> and that can fry it
[19:19] <SP9UOB> Lunar_Lander: IRF 540 ? First it boil the batteries ;-)
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, as it is a power mosfet right?
[19:19] <cuddykid> how come it was opening fine when just voltmeter connected? Is it because there's no load on source - drain?
[19:19] <SP9UOB> yup
[19:20] <SP9UOB> cuddykid: also no resistor from gate to gnd?
[19:20] <daveake> You don't (as LL is saying) want to use a MOSFET in the linear area. Full on or full off is OK, otherwise magic smoke may escape
[19:20] <cuddykid> ah, I see
[19:20] <cuddykid> got it
[19:20] <SP9UOB> FETs need virtually no current to open they are driven by voltage
[19:20] <cuddykid> so, a good old relay might be better? :D
[19:21] <daveake> hah
[19:21] <SP9UOB> cuddykid: static discharge from your body can open it
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[19:21] <cuddykid> but my damn arduino can't!
[19:21] <daveake> You have a higher voltage available; you just need to figure out how to apply it to the gate, under control of the AVR
[19:22] <SP9UOB> so You NEED resistor from gate to gnd (100k or more)
[19:22] <cuddykid> oh
[19:22] <SP9UOB> cuddykid: does arduino have any open-drain outputs?
[19:22] <cuddykid> need to get my head around this
[19:22] <cuddykid> SP9UOB: not sure :S
[19:23] <jcoxon> cuddykid, i used to use a transistor and then a relay
[19:23] <SP9UOB> if You have one
[19:23] <chrisstubbs> use another mosfet to open it
[19:23] <daveake> A diode can do that
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> SP9UOB, there is a mosfet-arduino example and they have a 10k pulldown between Gate and Source
[19:23] <chrisstubbs> or a transistor instead?
[19:23] <cuddykid> so, I need to use a mosfet to open a mosfet?
[19:23] <cuddykid> lol
[19:23] <SP9UOB> Lunar_Lander: i said 100k to minimize current drawn (every picowatt counts up there ;-)
[19:24] <cuddykid> jcoxon: that sounds a little more like something I can understand
[19:24] <SP9UOB> cuddykid: or bipolar - 2n2222 or so
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:26] <SP9UOB> anyway i'd prefer supercapacitor to cutdown :-)
[19:27] <SP9UOB> it can burn 1mm thick Cu tape :-)
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander> yea :)
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[19:34] <jcoxon> okay, so tonights debate topic...
[19:34] <jcoxon> so with picos wev'e got to the point of long floats
[19:34] <jcoxon> and it seems they descend on the second night
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[19:34] <jcoxon> now if we lose 1 gram of mass at that point we could rescue the flight and fly for longer
[19:34] <jcoxon> so
[19:34] <jcoxon> ideas to drop 1 gram
[19:34] <jcoxon> go:
[19:35] <chrisstubbs> release used batteries?
[19:35] <jcoxon> perhaps too much of a mass drop
[19:35] <cuddykid> well, it's pico so minimal weight
[19:35] <jcoxon> so one suggestion was wax on a resistor
[19:35] <SP9UOB> use Unobtainium - metal that is lighter than the air ;-)
[19:36] <cuddykid> how about some of Josh Taylor's magic mixture dripping through tubes ;)
[19:36] <SP9UOB> in this case we dont need a balloon at all ;-)
[19:36] <chrisstubbs> some kind of ballast liquid that could evaporate during flight?
[19:36] <jcoxon> chrisstubbs, i think it would be better to trigger the drop
[19:36] <jcoxon> picos when floating are relatively self regulating
[19:37] <jcoxon> don't want to mess around with that unless we have to
[19:37] <chrisstubbs> ok
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[19:37] <chrisstubbs> could the 1.8v picos handle the power required for a cutdown?
[19:38] <jcoxon> well
[19:38] <jcoxon> they'd struggle
[19:38] <jcoxon> perhaps a supercap
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[19:38] <jcoxon> needs to work after 30+ hours at cold temps
[19:38] <SP9UOB> but supercap is relatively heavy
[19:39] <jcoxon> not easy :-)
[19:42] <jcoxon> maybe drop something
[19:43] <codrBlu> How about 1g paper wads?
[19:43] <codrBlu> Or those biodegradeable toy gun pellets they are selling now?
[19:44] <jcoxon> i like the idea of biodegradable
[19:44] <jcoxon> i think we'll only need to drop something once
[19:44] <jcoxon> to rescue the flight for a little longer
[19:44] <codrBlu> You could attach the 1g ballast with nicrome to cut down.
[19:44] <cuddykid> surely the equipment needed to physically drop something would weigh too much for a pico?
[19:45] <codrBlu> Wrap some nicrome around some fishing line attaching the ballast?
[19:45] <chrisstubbs> the idea of a small vibration motor from a mobile phone keeps popping into my head
[19:46] <jcoxon> codrBlu, need a bit of voltage to get that to work
[19:46] <chrisstubbs> have the vibration motor keep 1g of non newtonian fluid solid
[19:46] <chrisstubbs> then turn it off and it will slowly dribble off
[19:46] <codrBlu> Wow!
[19:47] <jcoxon> i've got some nanoservos
[19:47] <SP9UOB> maybe some r-candy fuel, and just burn it
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[19:48] <SP9UOB> some low voltage rocket igniter
[19:48] <codrBlu> How many volts to trigger a model rocket fuse? Could you hang something from that?
[19:48] <codrBlu> SP9UOB, great minds think alike
[19:48] <Randomskk> they often struggle to ignite in very low pressures
[19:48] <SP9UOB> i saw one working with single AA
[19:49] <SP9UOB> Randomskk: but we are talking at about 4 km
[19:49] <SP9UOB> so pressure is not that low
[19:49] <codrBlu> Could you burn out a very low wattage resstor?
[19:51] <Randomskk> maybe microservo pulling a pin
[19:51] <Randomskk> that opens a little box
[19:51] <codrBlu> Tiny solenoid or muscle wire?
[19:52] <Randomskk> microservo is probably smaller and lower current than solenoid
[19:52] <jcoxon> codrBlu, well nanowire will definitely work
[19:52] <jcoxon> ive seen videos of it working in liq nitrogen
[19:52] <jcoxon> but they require a load of power
[19:52] <jcoxon> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8782
[19:54] <jcoxon> so the predecessors to picos tried nicrome wire onto polystyrene
[19:56] <jcoxon> http://ivoryultimate.blogspot.co.uk/
[19:56] <Laurenceb_> hot resistor?
[19:57] <codrBlu> I wonder if you used only one nanowire instead of the whole bundle, would the power requirements be lower?
[19:57] <SP9UOB> 3.5V and 410mA.
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[20:00] <jcoxon> what will be painful is launching and then waiting all that time to see if it works :-p
[20:03] <SP9UOB> hmmm, and what about 1g of nitrocelulose
[20:05] <SP9UOB> and burn.... it dont need much energy to ignite
[20:06] <jcoxon> hehe
[20:08] <jcoxon> i think i might try with my nanoservo
[20:08] <jcoxon> but strip it down
[20:08] <jcoxon> and have it movea pin or lid to release something
[20:08] <jcoxon> perhaps 1 gram of sand
[20:10] <SP9UOB> anyway burning something is more spectacular ;-) And You can go to TV News when You incidentally burn a forrest ;-)))
[20:12] <jcoxon> with the hydrogen balloon
[20:12] <SP9UOB> yeah
[20:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> How long would it take for a well insulated ice cube to melt ?
[20:14] <bertrik> how cold is it at the typical float altitude? :)
[20:14] <x-f> KT5TK used an ice cube, it was expected to slowly sublime in sunlight
[20:15] <x-f> you can check the 0deg isotherm altitude on windguru.cz
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> yay I can see the moon in the western sky :)
[20:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> Woo I can see alovely grey cloud hiding the sky .... :0
[20:17] <x-f> bertrik, generally below zero degrees it is 2300-3500 m AGL, but it varies, of course
[20:19] <bertrik> hmm, maybe not such a bad idea at all, as the balloon descends, the ice cube melts
[20:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> Well in that case this was the PICO flight path and altitude http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/PICO/Flight%20profile.JPG
[20:21] <x-f> (the word, i should have used, was "sublimate")
[20:22] <jcoxon> Geoff-G8DHE, yeah so we would trigger a drop on that last gradual descent
[20:22] <jcoxon> it wouldn't take much to pull it back
[20:22] <jcoxon> and get it to rise up to float again
[20:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> Just need to keep it frozen for an hour or so to get above the 0 degree height
[20:25] <jcoxon> my worry would be that we are talking about 1gram of lift with these flights
[20:25] <jcoxon> so if it melted/sublimed a bit we could increase the ascent rate and risk burst
[20:26] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid, are you trnasmitting normal telementry with teh SSDV data?
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[20:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> It took the PICO flight 1:00 to get to 2Kms and 1:30 to get to the initial float level of 3.5Kms
[20:29] <jcoxon> that was a weird flight
[20:30] <jcoxon> got stuck in an inversion layer for the first hour
[20:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> Need to get that flown again and see how well it repeats, maybe without the inversion layer, so it would reach float a lot quicker, but it was quite windy strange for an inversion layer to form ?
[20:31] <Upu-> AVA didn't climb for a bit
[20:31] <Upu-> was scary did not like
[20:32] <jcoxon> Geoff-G8DHE, will fly something similar again
[20:32] <jcoxon> it was good fun
[20:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> Would be interesting to see just what they can do!
[20:33] <jcoxon> there have been many pico flights
[20:33] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:picoatlas
[20:33] <jcoxon> thats my list
[20:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> They all seem to take about an hour to get to 2-2.5Kms
[20:37] <jcoxon> yeah you are aiming for 0.8m/s ascent
[20:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> Marble sized ice cubes deep frozen would easily last to that height and then only melt on the decent ..
[20:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> *descent
[20:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> Do we know what causes the descent is it gas loss or damage to the balloon ?
[20:41] <codrBlu> How about holding a tiny door closed with a tiny magnet, and then opening it by a tiny opposite pole electromagnet?
[20:42] <codrBlu> I used the word tiny 3 times to make it smaller.
[20:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Perhaps deep freeze the ice cube in liquid nitrogen first
[20:42] <SP9UOB> EUREKA! polarized relay :-)
[20:42] <SP9UOB> it need current only to change position
[20:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> It would weigh several grams in its own right, you need a magnetic path around the solenoid....?
[20:44] <SP9UOB> right :-( too heavy
[20:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ice cube is nice only extra weight is a thread to hang it on!
[20:46] <SP9UOB> night all
[20:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> CUL
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[20:47] <eroomde> 20:42 < SP9UOB> it need current only to change position
[20:47] <eroomde> like a flip-flop?
[20:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> Thats the type
[20:47] <eroomde> oh but this wants to by a physucal thing
[20:48] <eroomde> i am not keeping up
[20:48] <eroomde> i cannot both do irc and watch a video
[20:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> :-)
[20:48] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
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[20:49] <SpeedEvil> being able to properly ,multitask would be awesome
[20:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ask any Women ;-)
[20:49] <anerDev> hey hey guys !
[20:49] <anerDev> I have a logo
[20:49] <anerDev> who would like to watch ?
[20:49] <eroomde> brace
[20:49] <arko> oh neat, itunes is allowing listen to the new daft punk album
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[20:51] <eroomde> i guess we didn't shout loudly enough
[20:55] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: nope
[20:55] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: just SSDV
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[20:58] <chrisstubbs> ahh no worries sorted it now
[20:58] <chrisstubbs> was trying to get my head around the checksum again since i lost all my code :P
[20:58] <chrisstubbs> managed to find a photo of my tv screen with just enough code there to copy
[20:59] <chrisstubbs> taking photos of everything is the way forward!
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[21:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> We waiting for it!! Logo PLEASE!!
[21:00] <mfa298> a decent source code managment system is the real way forward (git or for the older people svn or cvs)
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[21:00] <mfa298> that and regular backups
[21:01] <Geoff-G8DHE> Come on you lot SHOUT when anerDev appears ;-)
[21:02] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] First Launch - Sci1"
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[21:12] <HixPad> HAB on Eden channel at the moment
[21:12] <arko> eden?
[21:13] <chrisstubbs> dont suppose you have freeview number?
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[21:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> Humm the "0" isotherm is suprising low http://www.windguru.cz/int/ ideal for Ice cubes!!
[21:14] <HixPad> Errm called Earth: earths extraordinary journey
[21:15] <HixPad> Arko it's a uk channel that shows mostly Bbc sci env docus
[21:15] <arko> ah
[21:15] <arko> o well
[21:16] <HixPad> I'll try to find it on torrent the host it
[21:18] <mfa298> chrisstubbs: looks like it's sky or virgin only, not for those of us that are unable to get virgin/sky (or are to cheap to get it)
[21:18] <HixPad> It was a flight with an upwards shot showing the balloon burst, sure rocket boy had something to do with it
[21:18] <HixPad> mfa298: I'll try to torrent it
[21:19] <chrisstubbs> ahh :( doubt it will be on sky go either
[21:20] <chrisstubbs> oooh it is!
[21:20] <mfa298> it looks like it might be on that well known universal PVR (aka TPB)
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[21:28] <HixPad> Got torrent on the go
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[21:43] <HixPad> Once it's downloaded I'll rehost as its a members only torrent site
[21:44] <HixPad> For arko if you like BBC documentaries check out www.thebox.bz though they're very anal about ratios so be careful, download soaps and host to boost your allocation
[21:44] <arko> haha
[21:44] <arko> funny thing, my friend from scotland gave me an invite
[21:45] <HixPad> Though it is a trove of great uk tv
[21:45] <HixPad> Ha, small world, though I wouldn't want to paint it
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[22:21] <fsphil> I see a Pi
[22:24] <chrisstubbs> fsphil, :)
[22:24] <chrisstubbs> my code is playing sillybuggers
[22:24] <chrisstubbs> when you disable ssdv it runs fine, then when you enable ssdv it only transmits the gps coords once
[22:25] <chrisstubbs> shame you have to wait for an entire image to send to see if it runs again after haha
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[22:25] <fsphil> send smaller images :)
[22:25] <chrisstubbs> now theres a good idea :P
[22:27] <chrisstubbs> yay it worked :)
[22:28] <chrisstubbs> must have been down to the GPS input buffer filling up while it was sending the image
[22:28] <fsphil> your image 1's have clashed
[22:28] <chrisstubbs> yeah they have, interesting
[22:29] <fsphil> it doesn't consider an image closed until there's been no new data for 5 minutes
[22:29] <fsphil> after that the same image ID opens a new image
[22:29] <chrisstubbs> Was just about to ask that
[22:29] <chrisstubbs> :)
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[22:29] <chrisstubbs> how long do the images stay on habhub for?
[22:29] <chrisstubbs> or wherever this si hosted
[22:29] <fsphil> it's setup to keep them for two weeks
[22:29] <fsphil> though they stay in the database
[22:30] <fsphil> with the idea that images from old flights can be accessed with a date in the url
[22:32] <chrisstubbs> now for the long old question
[22:33] <chrisstubbs> 300b or 600b?
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[22:38] <fsphil> 1200? :)
[22:39] <chrisstubbs> i tried it! works very well at this range
[22:39] <chrisstubbs> was daves last pi floater flight 600?
[22:39] <fsphil> I think if you had three or four stations with good antennas tracking it, 1200 would work well
[22:40] <chrisstubbs> with the track record of my last payload...
[22:40] <fsphil> pie5 was 300 baud
[22:40] <fsphil> but two channel
[22:40] <chrisstubbs> ah yes
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[22:44] <chrisstubbs> I think my next payload will have to include a cannon camera, the pi + eyetoy + ublox + ntx2 and a shiny new cheapo board
[22:45] <chrisstubbs> ah that makes me think, i tried to use fswebcam with two types of "easy cap" stick
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[22:47] <chrisstubbs> both the easycap dc60+ clone and the STK1160 showed up, you could list the inputs and capture an image from each input. but every photo it took was just black
[22:47] <fsphil> you may need to set the input channel
[22:48] <chrisstubbs> i tried from -i 0 to -i 5 with no luck
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[22:50] <chrisstubbs> http://flic.kr/p/ej4wWG
[22:50] <chrisstubbs> http://flic.kr/p/ej4xiY
[22:51] <chrisstubbs> does that mean anything to you fsphil?
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[23:02] <HixPad> www.stratosvision.com/docs/Orbit%20Earths%20Extraordinary%20Journey.pt1.avi.torrent
[23:03] <HixPad> For the HAB thing I saw earlier, only a wee bit but still worth a share
[23:04] <HixPad> About to hit the hay so report not working quickly if you want it tonight
[23:05] <fsphil> chrisstubbs: are there four composite inputs?
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[23:09] <chrisstubbs> fsphil, nope just one
[23:10] <chrisstubbs> well one composite and one svideo
[23:11] <fsphil> odd, the chip itself might have more but not wired up
[23:11] <fsphil> you might just have to try them all
[23:11] <chrisstubbs> I have, they all come back as black :(
[23:18] <chrisstubbs> Right im off, night!
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[23:22] <mazzanet> Darkside: !
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[23:40] <Willdude123> Hi
[23:52] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[23:56] <arko> thought you guys might like this http://vimeo.com/59442325
[23:58] <arko> nothing ground breaking, but i didnt know the go pro could do component out
[00:00] --- Tue May 14 2013