highaltitude.log.20130508

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[02:26] <heathkid> anyone?
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[02:43] <arko> sorry dude
[02:44] <arko> soooo who wants to play "why did the balloon burst early?"
[02:44] <arko> http://imgur.com/a/Cbs69
[02:44] <arko> just took these
[02:46] <BrainDamage> that's what she said
[02:46] <arko> heyo
[02:50] <arko> http://imgur.com/a/nwQIH
[03:07] <nigelvh> How old is that balloon?
[03:07] <nigelvh> Definitely looks like there are some less than healthy parts to me.
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[03:24] <arko> well 1 month after
[03:34] <arko> damn it
[03:34] <arko> i think my HX1 is broken
[03:34] <arko> blah
[03:50] <arko> if my ground wires get too close to the HX1 antenna the HX1 reset...
[03:50] <arko> perhaps i burned out something
[03:51] <arko> seems really sensitive
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[04:23] <DoYouKnow> I never thought about it this way... my book described altimeters as following a constant pressure level and not necessarily a constant height level
[04:23] <DoYouKnow> have there been any cases where sharp discontiguities have caused issues with altimeters in the past, and do the Aircraft with GPS nowadays still rely on pressure altimeters for anything?
[04:25] <heathkid> I would
[04:26] Action: heathkid isn't a pilot but GPS altitude varies too much
[04:26] <heathkid> I usually see +/- 50 ft. over a few hundred thousand samples...
[04:27] <heathkid> that might not sound like much... but if I were a pilot... 50 feet makes a LOT of difference when landing. Right?
[04:48] <griffonbot> @steamfire: Sign up for the @Wolfram_Alpha API, I've got something coming that you're going to want to try out with the W/A API! #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/steamfire/status/331994029661233152]
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[05:18] <oh7lzb> Commercial and military aircraft also use radar altimeter for landings and ground proximity warnings.
[05:22] <DoYouKnow> ah
[05:23] <DoYouKnow> yeah, those are the signals that supposedly interfere with C-band radio astronomy
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[07:37] <eroomde> DoYouKnow: modern position and attitude determinations use a lot of things together
[07:37] <eroomde> eg eg and pressure
[07:37] <eroomde> and maybe altimeter radar
[07:38] <eroomde> they'll have clever algorithms onboard that work out the best way to combine the reads from each to get an overall altitude estimate
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[09:57] <Babs> All, I've got a bunch of stuff from these people in the past http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/
[09:57] <Babs> They are closing down and have a bunch of stuff on sale. Mostly RC but there are some batteries and components on at a 50% discount.
[09:58] <Babs> I've no connection with it so hopefully broke no rules by popping that on, just thought it might be useful for some people on here
[09:59] <daveake> Ah handy ... I'll take a look at CF rods and servos
[10:04] <Laurenceb_> oh nice
[10:04] <Laurenceb_> crazy lightweight lipo
[10:04] <eroomde> #there are some lovely tiny brushless motors there
[10:05] <Laurenceb_> well not nice
[10:05] <daveake> UHU Por there too.
[10:05] <Laurenceb_> that was a good store
[10:06] <eroomde> lightweight wheels
[10:06] <eroomde> ideal for tree landings
[10:06] <UpuWork> ping KT5TK1
[10:07] <Laurenceb_> grrr
[10:07] <Babs> i bl00dy love UHU Por
[10:07] <Laurenceb_> now i have to look through all this stuff
[10:08] <Babs> I think this may be the first time I have become a net source of help for the group rather than a net sink of help. Sadly it is on discount batteries rather than HAB expertise. Congrats the Babs.
[10:08] <Laurenceb_> http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/styro_paint.html#styro-paint
[10:09] <daveake> wot no pink?
[10:09] <Babs> sales of pink styro paint to upu was the only thing stopping it from closing down 6 months ago
[10:09] <daveake> lol
[10:10] <Laurenceb_> shame its shutting
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[10:57] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: so do you get my giffard injectors are interesting?
[10:57] <Laurenceb_> *why
[10:57] <Laurenceb_> stupid autocorrect
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[11:08] Action: Laurenceb_ bbl
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[11:21] <HixWork> ping cuddykid
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[11:37] <HixWork> If someone speaks to cuddykid can they pass on that, that RC site has Phoenix R/C Flight Simulator (USB): £ 81.65 £ 49.00 (40%)
[11:37] <HixWork> I know he was thinking about it to reduce hex rebuild costs.
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[11:43] <cuddykid> pong HixWork
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[12:19] <domlin> hola
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[12:36] <Jennyannedore> Hey there, can somebody please suggest me a good launch spot for my high altitude balloon, I'm aiming to launch on the 20/21st july. We are based in London but will travel out into the country to get a great spot. Preferably one that has a good history of accepted permission from the landowner / caa? Please help, thanks so much! Jenny
[12:36] <Darkside> aiming for such a specific date is usually not a good idea
[12:36] <Darkside> best to have a range of weekends
[12:37] <Jennyannedore> Well we were just thinking to reschedule if the weather doesnt work out...
[12:37] <Darkside> yeah
[12:38] <Jennyannedore> Which I know will require waiting for another permission slip, maybe il apply for 2 different weekend actually, thanks!
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[12:38] <mfa298> you might get some ideas from the lists of UK launches on the ukhas site.
[12:39] <mfa298> also if you havn't already you might want to play with the predictors to get an idea where it might go
[12:40] <Jennyannedore> you mean once i've decided on a location, then use the predictor?
[12:40] <Randomskk> Jennyannedore: CUSF's launch site in Cambridge generally allows people to launch, and we have a rolling NoV so no need to apply for permission yourself
[12:40] <Randomskk> 20/21st july might be tricky though as lots of people will be on holiday
[12:40] <mfa298> you could also try the predictor with a few ideas of general area to launch from to see if it's likely to work for you.
[12:40] <Randomskk> still you could email us to chat, contact@cusf.co.uk
[12:41] <Jennyannedore> That's interesting thankyou, I'll have a look at the Cam site, it'll help a lot not having to ask permission!
[12:42] <mfa298> hopefully you have some ideas of ascent/descent rates and when it will burst.
[12:42] <Jennyannedore> I will email you too, I have many many more Qs! thanks!
[12:42] <Jennyannedore> slightly seperate Q already.... I'm not sure what kind of GPS/ tracker for the flight and landing to use, can you reccommend me a good one?
[12:42] <mfa298> this is usually a good place for questions - lots of experience with all sorts of things.
[12:43] <Jennyannedore> I know you guys have been amazing already!
[12:43] <mfa298> Most UK people make a radio tracker using a ublox gps and rfm22 / NTX2 radio with an arduino (or other micro processor)
[12:44] <Jennyannedore> Ahh...feeling super amature here but that's a lot of jargon I dont recognise! Are all these things you can buy, or build?
[12:45] <mfa298> ublox is a maker of a GPS and it's known to work to at least 40km.
[12:45] <kokey> hmmm
[12:45] <mfa298> rfm22 and ntx2 are both small radio transmitters.
[12:46] <kokey> who speaks to SamSilver the most often?
[12:46] <mfa298> a micro processor ties the whole lot together with some programming code
[12:46] <Jennyannedore> Ok great I'll look into those! will they suit edge-of-space recording & tracking?
[12:46] <Darkside> argh
[12:46] <Darkside> you're not edge of space
[12:46] <Darkside> you're nowhere near
[12:46] <Darkside> space is 100km
[12:46] <Jennyannedore> Oh...
[12:47] <Darkside> a HAB will get to 40km
[12:47] <Darkside> maybe
[12:47] <kokey> we are never online at the same time, so I need to find another way to get my contact details to him
[12:47] <Darkside> current record is 44km
[12:47] <Jennyannedore> so what should I be using?
[12:47] <Darkside> oh, the arduino + radio +GPS is best
[12:47] <Darkside> im just saying, high altitude ballooning is not 'edge of space'
[12:47] <Jennyannedore> Oh, really sorry.. new at this
[12:47] <mfa298> IF you want super easy then there are things like spot trackers but they may not report at all altitudes, they can be expensive and may not work well once they've landed.
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[12:48] <Darkside> yeah
[12:48] <Darkside> GSM (mobile network) trackers dont work >4km
[12:48] <Darkside> SPOT trackers won't work if they are upside down
[12:48] <Jennyannedore> Right
[12:48] <Brace> Jennyannedore: 30k is a decent height to aim for a first flight (it's what I'm going for)
[12:50] <Babs> You can make a self righting gimbal for a SPOT transmitter to leave it pointing upwards at all times. But I agree, the arduino + radio +gps is best
[12:50] <HixWork> maths sanity check Q: 1/3(t-c) is equal to (t-c)/3 I've got massive brain fade
[12:50] <Jennyannedore> Completely see what you mean but I have to at least try and aim for edge of space, it's a work project. What i'm doing, to make it clear, is sending the magazine I work for to the edge of space, mounted and protected somehow of course, filmed by GoPro
[12:50] <Jennyannedore> Ok thanks babs, that does sound like my best chance
[12:50] <Darkside> Jennyannedore: you may want to speak to some people in here
[12:50] <Randomskk> HixWork: ambiguous equation
[12:50] <Darkside> as there are other people here that have done launches like that
[12:50] <Brace> Jennyannedore: all the 'edge of space' stuff you'll see out there is about 30km high
[12:50] <Darkside> for other various groups
[12:51] <Brace> so just tell your boss it's 'edge of space'
[12:51] <Randomskk> do you mean 1/(3(t-c)) or 1/3*(t-c)?
[12:51] <Brace> and they'll probably not know the difference
[12:51] <HixWork> 1/3*(t-c) Randomskk
[12:51] <Randomskk> HixWork: as in, one third times (t - c)?
[12:51] <Randomskk> that is the same as (t-c)/3, yes
[12:51] <x-f_> kokey, he left his email address yesterday, can i pm it to you?
[12:51] <Brace> and as folk have mentioned there are people on here, who will send your mag up if you pay them
[12:51] Nick change: x-f_ -> x-f
[12:51] <Jennyannedore> well, I took insprartion from the Toshia wooden chair ad, or the kids that sent the lego man up, would you guys consider that edge of space?
[12:51] <HixWork> i was sure, but i had inner voices telling me no no no
[12:51] <mfa298> radio + arduino + gps also allows you to get live telemetry during the whole flight and you can also include various sensor information - there's also a nice network over most of the UK to help you track it
[12:52] <Darkside> Jennyannedore: people claim it is 'edge of space', but it is at best 1/3 the way there.
[12:52] <Darkside> but you do get the nice black sky look though
[12:53] <mattbrejza> 'near space' is offen used and somewhat better
[12:53] <Brace> Jennyannedore: that's 30k
[12:53] <HixWork> cheers Randomskk
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[12:53] <Darkside> mattbrejza: but still isn't correct
[12:53] <Brace> they hit 98,268 feet, which is 29,952 meters high
[12:53] <mattbrejza> 'nearer space (than the ground)' :P
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[12:54] <Darkside> mattbrejza: above 50km i might concede that
[12:54] <HixWork> near is a relative term so it'll always have ambuguity
[12:54] <Jennyannedore> I see, I thought that was edge of space! Well I would LOVE someone on here to join my team, and id be happy to pay them, but Itd have to be a team effort as its meant to be feat done by the magazine... I have to say one of the biggest problems is going to be mounting the magazine in the right way
[12:54] <Darkside> :P
[12:54] <HixWork> like my maths questions
[12:54] <Darkside> Jennyannedore: no
[12:54] <mattbrejza> well the conditions are certainly more like space than the ground
[12:54] <Darkside> the biggest problem is making a reliable tracker from scratch
[12:54] <Brace> Jennyannedore: so yeah you could get a ballon to the same height as that ad easily
[12:54] <Darkside> launching a balloon with a gopro is easy
[12:54] <Darkside> getting it back is hard
[12:54] <kokey> x-f: yes, please
[12:55] <kokey> well unless you launch enough of them to handle a 0.1% recovery rate
[12:56] <HixWork> GoPro in housing seems to be a recipe for lens fog Jennyannedore
[12:56] <Brace> out of interest, what magazine do you work for?
[12:56] <Jennyannedore> Ok, i'm going for the radio + arduino + gps to help me track it. Any advise as the the sites where I can aquire these items?
[12:56] <Darkside> its more than just buying it Jennyannedore
[12:56] <HixWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/ for the parts Jennyannedore
[12:57] <Jennyannedore> Its a mens mag but I think they are probably wanting to keep it quiet just for now..(not my choise as you guys have been amazingly helpful and I really appreciate it!)
[12:57] <HixWork> http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/ for balloons
[12:57] <Brace> Jennyannedore: have you read this - http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[12:57] <Brace> all the links are on there
[12:57] <Jennyannedore> Ok <Darkside> what do I need to do, if its more than buying it.....
[12:57] <Darkside> Jennyannedore: i would seriously suggest talking with some of the more experienced HABbers here
[12:57] <Jennyannedore> (thankyou all for your patience)
[12:57] <Brace> and this as well http://ukhas.org.uk/frontpage:guides
[12:57] <Darkside> and considering paying costs or something for a launch
[12:57] <Darkside> as its a very big project to do in such a short timeframe
[12:58] <Jennyannedore> argh
[12:58] <Darkside> especially if you don't have much programming or hardware experience
[12:58] <Laurenceb> http://www.flyingkettle.com/steam1inf.htm
[12:58] <Darkside> many people here spend months just making the tracker and receiver system work, before even considering putting helium in a balloon
[12:59] <Brace> there's definitely folk on here who do launches for companies
[12:59] <Brace> i'm sure one of them will pop up soon enough
[12:59] <Jennyannedore> Right well I'm going to have a good read of those links, I have to go back to work now annoyingly, but I'll be back on here later, and I'll definietly need more advice if you dont mind
[13:00] <Jennyannedore> Ok Brace I will out for that!
[13:01] <mfa298> it might also be worth talking around your office as there might be someone with an interest in radio/electronics/programming who might be intereseted.
[13:04] <daveake> Jennyannedore I'll drop you an email I can help you with this
[13:05] <daveake> Been a busy morning otherwise I'd have replied to your email earlier
[13:05] <Brace> aha, the pro, Mr daveake arrives!
[13:06] <daveake> lol
[13:07] <Brace> was pretty sure you could help Jennyannedore, but didn't want to name you incase you couldn't :)
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[13:07] <daveake> :)
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[13:12] <Jennyannedore> Thanks Dave, really appreciate all your help
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[13:14] <Babs> (Zoo magazine)
[13:15] <HixWork> heh - shhh
[13:15] <HixWork> linkedin?
[13:15] <Babs> "Those balloons aren't filled with helium"
[13:15] <daveake> lol
[13:15] <mattbrejza> that IP is Bauer Publishing
[13:16] <HixWork> its all gonna go tits up with that attitude Babs
[13:16] <daveake> CIS #highaltitude
[13:17] <Randomskk> presumably Bella then?
[13:17] <Randomskk> maybe That's Life :/
[13:17] <HixWork> http://goo.gl/Q0az8
[13:17] <Laurenceb> "take a break"
[13:17] <Babs> Transmitting on 50 baudy rate
[13:19] <daveake> Plenty of pros with go
[13:20] <HixWork> plenty of free lift there
[13:20] <HixWork> or more correctly expenxive bought lift
[13:21] <HixWork> *expensive
[13:21] <daveake> "We went to the edge of space, and it was a bit nippy"
[13:21] <gonzo__> you'll need some support
[13:22] <HixWork> Our balloons are bigger than NUTS'
[13:22] <Babs> Brilliant. The first woman on here in eons and it takes 2 minutes before we descend into groupwide snickering.
[13:22] <Babs> Still, the first topless HAB launch is yet to be claimed as a record.
[13:23] <gonzo__> given the mag, is that not expected?!
[13:23] <gonzo__> (the sniggering I mena)
[13:23] <Babs> A sped up video of a HAB launch and chase to the Benny Hill music would be excellent.
[13:23] <HixWork> ha!!!
[13:23] <daveake> Babs, IIRC the last one turned out to be a bloke "in the process"
[13:24] <Babs> daveake. ?
[13:24] <gonzo__> huffing helium to get the voice right?
[13:24] <HixWork> heh
[13:24] <daveake> That and some other things yes
[13:24] <daveake> :)
[13:24] <gonzo__> the real reason for the pink pauloads!
[13:24] <daveake> hah
[13:24] <HixWork> its all gone a bit schoolboy on here hasn't it
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[13:25] <gonzo__> hate to break it to you. But the op wasn't much of a success!
[13:25] <daveake> We'll be back to normal soon.
[13:25] <HixWork> good job ive got a socks proxy after looking at their homepage
[13:25] <daveake> Oh, sorry, that is normal
[13:27] <Laurenceb> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/TurtlesAllTheWayDown2.png
[13:28] Nick change: gonzo__ -> finbar_saunders
[13:29] <HixWork> fnaar finbar_saunders
[13:29] Nick change: finbar_saunders -> gonzo_
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[14:22] Nick change: zarya_ -> zarya
[14:23] <Laurenceb> http://www.heidas.de/docs/HeiDAS_DGLRKongress2005.pdf
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[14:26] <Laurenceb> http://www.heidas.de/docs/HeiDAS_DGLR_LTA_VII_2004.pdf
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[14:37] <x-f> das ist heiß
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[15:04] <nosebleedkt> hi
[15:05] <nosebleedkt> what is the link to the live tracker page?
[15:06] <fsphil> spacenear.us
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[15:16] Nick change: DrLuke__ -> DrLuke
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[15:27] <nosebleedkt> what is the link to the live tracker page?
[15:28] <number10> spacenear.us
[15:29] <fsphil> youneedbetterinter.net
[15:38] <nosebleedkt> lol
[15:44] <nosebleedkt> fsphil,
[15:44] <HixWork> or http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/
[15:44] <HixWork> i prefer it
[15:44] <nosebleedkt> who is developing those maps ?
[15:46] <HixWork> errm pass
[15:46] <HixWork> someone from CUSF i'm gonna guess
[15:49] Action: Laurenceb is reading http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/27068
[15:53] <mfa298> the mobile-tracker one was made by lz<something>
[15:53] <mfa298> you should find details in the archives if you go back a couple of months
[16:00] <cuddykid> HixWork: you were after me earlier?
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[16:02] <HixWork> yeah, the RC store that someone mentioned that was shutting down - they had Phoenix Sim for ~45 quid
[16:03] <HixWork> you'll have to hit the logs though
[16:03] <cuddykid> nice
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[16:49] <arko> morning
[16:52] <cuddykid> expanding foam makes a horrific mess
[16:52] <arko> yes it does
[16:58] <Babs> it does't, until you think its stopped expanding, so you go and make a cup of tea and come back and it has taken over your living room
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[18:08] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:08] <fsphil> yes
[18:08] <fsphil> yes indeed
[18:08] <nigelvh> quick everyone! Hide!
[18:08] <nigelvh> How's the morning treating you Lunar?
[18:08] Action: fsphil sets mode +hidden
[18:09] Action: arko finds shelter and starts a family and a new life
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[18:09] <nigelvh> Arko's got the right idea.
[18:11] <arko> im not arko anymore
[18:11] Action: arko JoeAmerican
[18:11] <nigelvh> If you're not arko anymore, can I be arko?
[18:11] <arko> thats right
[18:11] <fsphil> ark2
[18:12] <daveake> Sparkocus
[18:12] Nick change: nigelvh -> roboarko
[18:12] <roboarko> *boop*
[18:13] <arko> >_upload(blink.pde, target:roboarko);
[18:13] <roboarko> *blink* *BLINK* *blink* *BLINK* SEGFAULT
[18:13] <arko> FFFFFFFFF
[18:13] <daveake> RoboCop: Looking for me?
[18:13] <daveake> [shoots Joe mercilessly]
[18:13] Nick change: roboarko -> nigelvh
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[18:15] <codrBlu> Can anyone point me to some examples of valid AP ERS a X. 25 frames?
[18:16] <nigelvh> http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=K7NVH-9
[18:16] <codrBlu> can anyone point me to so
[18:16] <nigelvh> Those are a bunch of mine.
[18:16] <codrBlu> stupid chat
[18:17] <codrBlu> Nigelv, does that show the FCS check bytes?
[18:17] <nigelvh> No, it doesn't
[18:18] <nigelvh> Those aren't often printable chars
[18:18] <nigelvh> If you need an example with the the raw frame bytes, give me a minute.
[18:19] <codrBlu> thx
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[18:25] <Laurenceb_> sup
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[18:27] <codrBlu> hey Lawrence.
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[18:34] <nigelvh> alright codrBlu, here's a hex dump of one of my APRS packets. http://pastebin.com/AbWNFBuK
[18:35] <nigelvh> Left is the hex value, and right is the char it would be.
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[18:35] <nigelvh> codrBlu_ did you see my message?
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[18:36] <codrBlu_> Sorry, no. Connection problems.
[18:36] <nigelvh> here's a hex dump of one of my APRS packets. http://pastebin.com/AbWNFBuK
[18:36] <nigelvh> Left is the hex value, and right is the char it would be.
[18:37] <nigelvh> In this case, the FCS bytes are DF,67
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[18:41] <arko> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3341/3503409200_b4624bd0eb_o.jpg
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[18:42] <codrBlu> thx a lot nigelv!
[18:42] <nigelvh> Does that answer the questions you had?
[18:42] <nigelvh> Also, that's pretty cool arko.
[18:43] <codrBlu> it should. I'm writing custom code to create aprs messages so that will allow me to validate my code.
[18:44] <arko> yeah pretty cool picture
[18:44] <nigelvh> Having done that, If you're just starting, I'd recommend using Trackuino.
[18:45] <codrBlu> I'm basing my code off that.
[18:46] <codrBlu> turning it into a class lib.
[18:47] <nigelvh> Good luck. AX.25 isn't the easiest to generate.
[18:47] <fsphil> not so cool if you took it during a flight
[18:48] <fsphil> there's a lot going on in there
[18:48] <codrBlu> thx. I'm enjoying the code exercise. I have everything except the FCS.
[18:49] <codrBlu> trackuino calculates the FCS on a bit basis. looking for code that does it on a byte basis.
[18:50] <nigelvh> You could just loop through the bytes and calculate on the bits.
[18:50] <codrBlu> that's what I'm doing now. wanted to compare the efficiencies.
[18:51] <fsphil> this any good codrBlu? https://github.com/ProjectSwift/swift/blob/master/ax25modem.c
[18:51] <fsphil> line 183
[18:51] <fsphil> or do you mean the CRC?
[18:52] <nigelvh> I don't calculate the FCS beforehand, I do it a bit at a time as it's being transmitted.
[18:52] <codrBlu> yeah. I'm interested in doing it beforehand
[18:55] <nigelvh> Keep in mind that the flag bytes and the FCS bytes must NOT be bit stuffed, so you need to transmit them slightly differently
[18:55] <nigelvh> So to me, it made sense to not buffer them the same way.
[18:56] <codrBlu> fspil, that is helpful. thx!
[18:56] <nigelvh> Sorry, actually the FCS must be bit stuffed, and the flags must not.
[18:56] <codrBlu> right
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, ah the laboratory has been tidied up, that's good
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[18:57] <codrBlu> Yeah, I want to pre calculate for a couple reasons. Curiosity, debugging, and I like having it done, so I'm not wasting those cycles during the transmission phase.
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[19:01] <fsphil> the crc is part of the frame, rather than something on the physical layer
[19:01] <fsphil> doing it in the interrupt seems a bit out of place
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[19:02] <nigelvh> For me, doing it bit by bit, it makes sense since we're already looping through the bits to transmit, might as well put it there instead of looping another time through.
[19:02] <codrBlu> I agree fsphil. That's why I would like to have the full frame calculated beforehand, but I totally see the other arguement.
[19:02] <fsphil> ackward if you later wanted to do fx.25
[19:02] <fsphil> which to be fair almost nobody would :)
[19:03] <codrBlu> Since I am already waiting several minutes between transmissions, I have plenty of time to waste on calculating the frame.
[19:03] <fsphil> I also did it this way with the theory I could put ssdv packets in there
[19:04] <codrBlu> What is fx.25 and ssdv?
[19:04] <nigelvh> On the other hand, I will freely admit my code isn't perfect. But it does work, and anecdotal experience indicates it may decode better than trackuino.
[19:04] <fsphil> fx.25 is ax.25+FEC
[19:04] <fsphil> ssdv is an image format
[19:05] <fsphil> putting an ssdv packet inside an ax.25 frame is just cruel
[19:06] <fsphil> I'll rephrase that
[19:06] <fsphil> putting an ssdv packet inside an aprs frame is just cruel
[19:06] <fsphil> raw ax.25 makes a bit more sense
[19:06] <nigelvh> Yes, do NOT do ssdv over APRS
[19:06] <nigelvh> That IS cruel to the network.
[19:08] <fsphil> either cruel to the network, or cruel to the user waiting on a tiny bit of image every 1 or 2 minutes
[19:08] <nigelvh> You *can* transmit faster than that, but it's not nice.
[19:08] <codrBlu> Does the existing APRS network support fx.25?
[19:09] <fsphil> sadly nobody uses it
[19:10] <nigelvh> FEC would be a good addition to APRS. Would reduce network congestion from retransmits.
[19:12] <fsphil> fx.25 frames can be decoded by a regular ax.25 modem just fine
[19:12] <fsphil> people just need to start using it
[19:12] <fsphil> I wonder if it's used on satellites - would make sense there
[19:13] <codrBlu> If I used fx.25, would it successfully plot on aprs.fi?
[19:15] <fsphil> the ax.25 packet within it should be no different
[19:16] <fsphil> you'd need a couple of stations within range to support it
[19:16] <fsphil> to get any benifit
[19:16] <fsphil> -i+e
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[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> want to hear todays learnt lesson?
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[19:27] <chrisstubbs> go on lunar ;)
[19:31] <codrBlu> I'm always up for a lesson
[19:31] <daveake> Does it involve cutdowns, melting and fires?
[19:35] <x-f> what happened?
[19:36] <fsphil> sounds like a good night out
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> DanielRichman, no
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, sorry no
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> I wanted to try the TinyGPS library
[19:39] vladimirek (~vladimire@95.105.250.72) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> and got no reply like advertised but only a line with CHARS =, SENTENCES = and something else
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> so I played the UBX program back on the chip and put it away
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> only then I saw that the VCC of the GPS was not connected
[19:47] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: haha
[19:48] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: I spent a lot of time troubleshooting my ublox, later turned out a pin I was using for - labelled GND on the chinaduino wasn't actually connected to the board ground.
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[19:50] <costyn> it's only when you start to question everything that you discover something like this :)
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[19:56] <fsphil> always test the basics :)
[19:56] <fsphil> it's easy to assume, easier to test
[19:57] <W0OTM> Howdy
[19:58] <fsphil> yoyo
[19:58] <W0OTM> Does spacenear.us tracker support APRS yet?
[19:59] <nigelvh> spacenear.us can pull APRS data from the network.
[20:00] <nigelvh> You just need to notify someone so they can set it up.
[20:00] <W0OTM> who/how do I notify?
[20:01] <nigelvh> I don't know who. When I did it, I just came on here and said "Hey, can spacenear.us track BALLOONCALLSIGN on APRS?"
[20:01] <nigelvh> And they did it.
[20:01] <W0OTM> LOL
[20:02] <W0OTM> perfect
[20:02] <eroomde> i like the bus from london to oxford
[20:03] <eroomde> lots of academis having academicy conversaions
[20:03] <eroomde> a very grand sounding very aged person
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[20:03] <Upu> hey W0OTm..
[20:03] <Upu> I can do it
[20:03] <eroomde> 'i was asked to give the closing address at the royal goegraphical society about tehran and i though 'oh good lordthat could be a bit much'
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[20:03] <Upu> just need the call sign
[20:04] <nigelvh> See? Told you W0OTM
[20:04] <eroomde> 'but then of course i remembered i was thar during the revolution and so i have a few anecdotes about burning cats and so forth'
[20:04] <Upu> he just logged off
[20:04] <nigelvh> Damn
[20:04] <SpeedEvil> was that a typo for cars eroomde ?
[20:04] <Upu> others can set it up too
[20:05] <nigelvh> I believe I recall that.
[20:05] <eroomde> there with a posh accent
[20:05] <eroomde> 'so whar do you teach then amelia I forget'
[20:05] <eroomde> 'columbia'
[20:06] <eroomde> 'that's most peculiar, i didnlt know they had universities thar'
[20:06] <SpeedEvil> hah
[20:06] <eroomde> 'columbia university... in new york'
[20:06] <eroomde> 'oh! splendid'
[20:06] <nigelvh> BTW Upu, I should expect your package to arrive soon.
[20:07] <nigelvh> Assuming the postal service doesn't lie&.
[20:07] <nigelvh> Which is probably a bad assumption...
[20:07] <Upu> cool thanks nigelvh
[20:07] <Upu> indeed :)
[20:07] <nigelvh> I'm excited to hear how it goes together and works for you.
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[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> thanks for shipping the GPS :)
[20:11] <Upu> hi Lunar
[20:11] <Upu> no problems thanks for paying me
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> you're welcome :)
[20:12] <fsphil> service with a smile
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> lab is all tidied up
[20:12] <codrBlu> Upu, I need to contact your store by phone. What are the best hours?
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> so I now got the table which was used for coding and all stuff for soldering only
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> big space
[20:12] <mfa298> a tidy lab, that doesn't sound right.
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:13] <Upu> hi codrBlu PM
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: so do you get why i think giffard injectors are interesting?
[20:13] <eroomde> I need to contact you by phone too Upu
[20:13] <eroomde> my brother has $567,087,000 dollars in a bank account
[20:14] <eroomde> i want to discuss an opportunity to make you rich if you help me release it
[20:14] <Upu> oh thank the Lord
[20:14] <nigelvh> HAHAHA
[20:14] <eroomde> I just need you bank account number and sort code, then i can transfer de monies
[20:15] <fsphil> which isn't a lie
[20:16] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUuvzgRBELM
[20:17] <arko> wow neat
[20:17] <arko> Kaymont gave me the HAB-350 for free and 50% off my next big balloon
[20:17] <arko> after submitting overwhelming evidence that the HAB-1200 they gave me was defective
[20:18] <arko> kaymontRespect++;
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[20:18] <eroomde> kaymontAltitude--;
[20:18] <arko> haha
[20:19] <arko> so i have a new technique for the balloons before launching them now
[20:19] <codrBlu> It is great to see a company like Kaymont continue to have quality and customer service even when they become the dominant supplier.
[20:19] <arko> taking lots of high res pictures and applying HDR filters
[20:19] <arko> to see if there are any defects
[20:19] <arko> http://imgur.com/a/Cbs69
[20:19] <arko> like this http://imgur.com/a/nwQIH
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/27068
[20:23] <craag> arko: That's quite cool
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> tl;dr heating peroxide is a bad idea
[20:23] <craag> Being able to see weak spots before launch.
[20:24] <arko> yep
[20:25] <codrBlu> To help me write some APRS code, I am about to write a web-based utility that helps you construct and verify raw APRS AX.25 packets. Anyone know if something like that exists already?
[20:25] <arko> i recommend taking the pictures with a blue sky background
[20:25] <arko> and lots
[20:25] <arko> different angles in hopes to find issues
[20:25] <craag> ermm blue sky background... might be a bit hard in the uk!
[20:25] <arko> maybe a few with the suns beams running through the balloon
[20:26] <arko> haha good point
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[20:31] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: kerosene, or alcohol works better IIRC
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[20:34] <Laurenceb_> yeah but if you want to pump peroxide...
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[20:34] <Laurenceb_> so that paper i linked suggesting a peroxide boiler would never work
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> all you need is an explosuonproof boiler :-)
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> explosions generate lovely pressure pulses
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2010-7057
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> ^that one, impossible to make it work irl
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> haha
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> gaah
[20:37] <Laurenceb_> but that mit guy finds explosive decomposition in the liquid phase past 150C
[20:37] Action: SpeedEvil hates non free journals.
[20:37] <Laurenceb_> or course.. he could have screwed up his experiment
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> in stainless steel
[20:37] <Laurenceb_> yeah, need to haxor into a uni network
[20:37] <Laurenceb_> he says the stainless isnt helping things
[20:38] <Laurenceb_> but the fact the explosion is self sustaining in the liquid phase suggests peroxide boilers are inherently unstable
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> you can also get vapour phase detonations
[20:38] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> yeah, htp is a tertiary high explosive
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> at room temp
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> at high temps...
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> same with nitromethane
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> and, indeed ammonium nitrate
[20:40] <SpeedEvil> I once dried some ammonium nitrate at 150c before I knew that.
[20:40] <Laurenceb_> still.. im convinced giffard injectors can do something interesting
[20:40] <Laurenceb_> lol
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[20:40] <Laurenceb_> just need lots of steam
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> http://www2.questconsult.com/thermo/enthpres.html <- useful site
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> giffard injector is just enthalpy convervation
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> fortunately nothing happened. 1kg of AN detonating would have been bad.
[20:43] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
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[20:43] <Upu> ping W0OTM a number of us can run the APRS import script
[20:43] <W0OTM> Upu: how does it work?
[20:44] <W0OTM> got an example of a previous launch?
[20:44] <Upu> we have a script
[20:44] <Upu> got something on APRS now ?
[20:45] <W0OTM> W0OTM-11
[20:45] <Upu> k 1 min
[20:46] <Upu> there you go
[20:46] <Upu> www.spacenear.us/tracker
[20:46] <Upu> and the predictions will work when enabled too
[20:47] <W0OTM> holy cow!
[20:47] <W0OTM> couple queastions
[20:47] <Upu> shoot
[20:47] <W0OTM> 1) can you add an option to view Alititude and Rate in Feet, and ft/min
[20:48] <Upu> no we moved to the metric system in 1972
[20:48] <W0OTM> you being serious/
[20:48] <W0OTM> ?
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[20:48] <Upu> sort of
[20:49] <Upu> GPS and everything else is done in metric
[20:49] <W0OTM> can you just do a simple meter to ft equation ?
[20:49] <Upu> I have no idea whats involved with converting to imperial
[20:50] <Randomskk> yea, just multiply by 3 in your head
[20:50] <Randomskk> :P
[20:50] <W0OTM> 1 meter = 3.28084ft
[20:50] <Upu> 1 meter = 1 meter :)
[20:50] <Randomskk> yea. it's about 3
[20:50] <Upu> lol
[20:50] <Randomskk> in all seriousness there's no easy way to do it on a per-payload basis really
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> anyone else remember the km/mile ratio as 300000/186000 ?
[20:50] <Randomskk> we could in theory add a user option to view it in either one
[20:51] <Randomskk> but it's not very easily done
[20:51] <Upu> I don't think its worth spending the development time on it
[20:51] <Upu> better you start learning to love metric :)
[20:51] <qyx_> i am sure that browser can report locale settings to js app
[20:51] <nigelvh> I think I'd second that, despite having grown up with american.
[20:51] <Randomskk> I don't think the browser reports metric vs imperial preferences in the locale!
[20:52] <Randomskk> it could be set as a cookie, but we'd have to have a UI for setting it and code to change the results
[20:52] <Randomskk> I mean it's not impossible
[20:52] <Randomskk> hm
[20:52] <Randomskk> or just have it change when clicked
[20:52] <W0OTM> http://www.ihabproject.com/Tracker/?vehicle=&mission_id=iHAB-5
[20:53] <W0OTM> I did it, and its not that difficult
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[20:53] <mfa298> I'm not sure if I'd want to trust what browsers report. So many things seem to assume if you're language is English you en_US (I've seen cases of web apps breaking when the language is set to something else)
[20:54] <qyx_> thats also true, i have en_US and dont live here
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, did you read how I failed on testing TinyGPS?
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[20:55] <W0OTM> also, why does it say XABEN/CHEAPO? http://spacenear.us/tracker/?filter=W0OTM-11
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[20:56] <craag> W0OTM: That's set up manually for upcoming flights, and hasn't been changed since the weekend.
[20:57] <W0OTM> why does it show up when I filtered out all but 1 call sign?
[20:57] <craag> Because it's a global setting.
[20:57] <craag> There's nothing clever/automatic about it.
[20:57] <W0OTM> why do I want to see info about XABEN if I came to the tracker looking for another flight?
[20:58] <craag> Because most of the time, we only have a couple of flights on at the time.
[20:58] <craag> So the title/info is set manually.
[20:59] <craag> ie. Typed in as a global banner.
[20:59] <W0OTM> so, really, spacenear.us isn't really geared to be used by anyone else other than UK flights?
[20:59] <craag> It will probably be changed for you before your flight.
[20:59] <mfa298> and it's usually only (manually) updated when a new flight that's going to appear on spacenear.us are announced
[21:00] <craag> Someone will update it when they get around to it.
[21:01] <W0OTM> My browser title bar is also XABEN / CHEAPO : Tracker
[21:01] <mfa298> W0OTM: i think spacenear.us is designed more for flights that use dl-fldigi and a mode that it supports (usually rtty)
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> W0OTM, it always shows the most recent flights
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> as the title
[21:01] <Upu> W0OTM its suitable for all flights
[21:01] <Upu> when you want to launch one of us will set the prediction and configure the header
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> even hellschreiber ;)?
[21:02] <Upu> actually yes Lunar_Lander
[21:02] <Upu> we have a manual input form
[21:02] <mfa298> and it's definetly used by more than just uk flights.
[21:02] <Upu> but its a shared resource so at the moment its still set up for last weekends flights
[21:03] <W0OTM> I would love to use it, but as it is, the hundreds of people that follow my flights won't understand some of the nuances that spacenear.us has
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[21:03] <craag> W0OTM: Other than the metric units, what other nuances are there?
[21:04] <Upu> interesting looks like the HX1 board from the APRS flight that Radim recovered is knackered
[21:04] <Upu> pulls 0.5A all the time
[21:04] <Upu> which explains the flat battery
[21:04] <Upu> when Radim got to it there was 60 mins run time left
[21:04] <nigelvh> Yeah, that doesn't look right.
[21:05] <Upu> its getting warm too
[21:05] <fsphil> that's a surprise
[21:05] <Upu> 18 hours run time with that battery pack at 0.5A
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[21:06] <W0OTM> craag: metric is a pretty big one
[21:07] <Upu> just tell them to times by 3
[21:07] <Upu> err
[21:07] <Upu> ish
[21:07] <W0OTM> i don't understand the insistence on not supporting imperial
[21:08] <nigelvh> Because metric is how science is measured.
[21:08] <mfa298> W0OTM: I suspect the main thing is that there are probably more important things to put effort into
[21:08] <W0OTM> Upu, for kids, teachers, and non hams, who would be viewing the tracker, thats not a practical request
[21:08] <mfa298> plus most of the modern world has moved to metric.
[21:08] <Randomskk> lemme see if there's any very easy way to do this
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[21:08] <Upu> maybe time to teach them ?
[21:08] <Upu> not being awkward we use imperial in the UK
[21:08] <W0OTM> OMG, forget it
[21:08] <Upu> we drink pints and drive miles
[21:08] <W0OTM> Not worth arguing over
[21:08] <eroomde> seriosuly tho
[21:08] <eroomde> sod imperial
[21:09] <Upu> but the nature of what we do is measured in metric
[21:09] <eroomde> learn something proper
[21:09] <Upu> imperial is dire
[21:09] <eroomde> it's science
[21:09] <Upu> they should be teaching kids at school metric not imperial its just an archaic system
[21:10] <Randomskk> that's nice and all but it's not changing because of this discussion
[21:10] <W0OTM> did the password change for the spacenear.us SFTP
[21:10] <Upu> spacenear.us has moved hosts
[21:10] <LazyLeopard> ...or at very least teaching BOTH and how to convert between them.
[21:10] <Randomskk> let me put it like this
[21:10] <W0OTM> Upu: can I have an updated version of the source code?
[21:10] <Randomskk> would anyone object to someone asking if it could be translated to french
[21:11] <Randomskk> by saying "well they should just learn english?"
[21:11] <Randomskk> :P
[21:11] <Upu> no Randomskk but its not the same is it ?
[21:11] <Upu> sure W0OTM 1 sec
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> btw the french resisted switching to english for scientific papers for a long time
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> longer than any other language
[21:11] <Randomskk> I don't think it's dissimilar. we want to communicate the ideas and concepts here, and the language they speak means they understand imperial units
[21:11] <Upu> the whole backend has changed
[21:11] <eroomde> they are quite defensive about their language
[21:11] <Upu> http://habitat.habhub.org/
[21:12] <W0OTM> Upu: thats fine, ill do whatever I need to get it working like i want
[21:12] <Randomskk> I'd rather school kids or whoever got to see the whole thing in a way they understood
[21:12] <Randomskk> than we enforce some kind of unit purity on people who aren't going to care or change
[21:12] <Upu> Also https://github.com/akarpenko/spacenear-nosql
[21:12] <W0OTM> Upu: is the APRS script included in that?
[21:12] <Upu> no the script uses the Habitat backend
[21:13] <Randomskk> ugh I forgot what a mess the spacenear.us source is :P
[21:13] <Upu> https://github.com/ukhas
[21:13] <Upu> https://github.com/ukhas/habitat-aprs
[21:14] <W0OTM> Upu: thank you
[21:15] <Randomskk> W0OTM: I'm looking and there's no very easy way to do it though
[21:15] <Randomskk> the whole thing is hard coded to assume metric everywhere
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[21:15] <Randomskk> short of changing it for everyone
[21:15] <mfa298> Randomskk: I don't have anything particularly against having options for different units / languages, the only thing I'd say is that they might be of a lower priority than other things (I'm assuming there are other required changes)
[21:15] <eroomde> it's a bit ill-reasoned to say imperial is just a matter of translation vs metric. it may not be a big deal for just displaying an altitude in meters vs feet
[21:15] <eroomde> but for science it makes it much harder to teach
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[21:16] <W0OTM> Randomskk: when I did it on the previous version, I simply did the math for what was displayed
[21:16] <Randomskk> eroomde: my views on whether the american school system should teach metric are separate from whether a software service used by people who are already only familiar with imperial should include the option
[21:16] <W0OTM> Randomskk: it was in php if I remember correctly
[21:16] <eroomde> as there are no SI units, nice equations like q = 0.5*rho*v^2 become q = 67896.575*rho*v^2
[21:16] <Randomskk> mfa298: while true, in general doing one thing doesn't really stop other things happening
[21:17] <Randomskk> but obviously it would depend on how much work it was
[21:17] <Randomskk> W0OTM: parts of it are PHP
[21:17] <mfa298> Randomskk: true, and often it's a case of how easily something can be done (as you just said as well)
[21:17] <Randomskk> but changing stuff there would essentially mean changing it to imperial for everything
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[21:17] <Randomskk> you probably want just a little bit of javascript to do it clientside per-person
[21:18] <Randomskk> equally, I'd also rather see us support imperial than the whole system become fractured or rehosted just for the sake of some units
[21:18] <W0OTM> //+ "<b>Altitude:</b> " + position.gps_alt + " m<br />"
[21:18] <W0OTM> + "<b>Altitude:</b> " + roundNumber(position.gps_alt*3.2808399,2) + " ft<br />"
[21:19] <W0OTM> it was javascript
[21:19] <Randomskk> what file are you in there?
[21:19] <Randomskk> or is that your old edit?
[21:19] <mfa298> W0OTM: the other relativly easy work around might be to just give people a set of equivalent values (such as what burst altitude is expected in ft and m then people know what they're looking for on the site and a value they understand)
[21:19] <W0OTM> + ' <b>Altitude:</b> ' + roundNumber(position.gps_alt,2) + ' m' + ascent_text + '<br />'
[21:19] <W0OTM> + ' <b>Altitude:</b> ' + roundNumber(position.gps_alt*3.2808399,2) + ' ft' + ascent_text_imperial + '<br />'
[21:20] <W0OTM> Randomskk: thats the version I edited years ago
[21:20] <W0OTM> index_tracker.php
[21:20] <Randomskk> indeed
[21:20] <Randomskk> so the code has changed a bit since
[21:20] <W0OTM> I sure it has
[21:20] <Randomskk> but also, doing that would mean every visitor sees imperial and no one sees metric
[21:20] <Randomskk> which is more what I was getting at
[21:20] <W0OTM> but I am not convinced it is THAT time consuimg
[21:20] <Randomskk> making a similar change to yours above would be fairly easy
[21:20] <W0OTM> g
[21:20] <Randomskk> but it would effect everyone
[21:21] <Randomskk> probably no more than an hour's work
[21:21] <Randomskk> which is why I am looking into it, you might note
[21:21] <W0OTM> Randomskk: thats why I thought another setting option in the Setting Tab
[21:21] <W0OTM> Randomskk: I assume thats what the settings tab was designed for
[21:21] <Randomskk> indeed
[21:22] <Randomskk> that might be a good place
[21:22] <eroomde> maybe have a victorian school mistress animation rebuke you for being a very naughty child and if you knew what was good for you you'd stay metric
[21:22] <eroomde> when you select imperial units
[21:22] <eroomde> in this tab
[21:22] <eroomde> educating people one passive-agressive-step at a time
[21:23] <W0OTM> Now, if you guy don't care about attacking all the US based HAB flights, thats fine. aprs.fi is used but ALOT of hams in the US
[21:23] <W0OTM> attracting+
[21:24] <eroomde> inwas about to say :)
[21:24] <W0OTM> I want to help you bridge that gap
[21:24] <eroomde> with transatlantic lasers
[21:24] <mfa298> If there's a proper option for imperial rather than metric then it really needs to support the various values that can be in there (temperature / speed etc) and not just altitude.
[21:24] <W0OTM> mfa298: I agree 100%
[21:25] <Randomskk> yes but I think altitude is the priority
[21:25] <W0OTM> Alt and Rate
[21:25] <eroomde> maybe make the whole thing sepia and change the fonts to 'wanted' wild-west-poster styles
[21:25] <Randomskk> eroomde: haha
[21:25] <W0OTM> Not everyone uses your predictor, and the other HAB prediction sites are all imperial
[21:26] <mfa298> altitude is probably the first one to cover as I don't think many others are usually imported from APRS
[21:27] <W0OTM> mfa298: I think once you get the tracker US (imperial) friendly, I think HAB teams will start want to use it more. and we are ALL aprs here
[21:28] <W0OTM> Randomskk: thank you for looking into it
[21:28] <W0OTM> I think having a presentation about Habitat at the GPSL this year would be a good idea
[21:29] <Randomskk> more and more annoying bits crop up
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[21:29] <Randomskk> the altitude bar chart in each payload box is an image
[21:29] <mfa298> having spacenear.us used for more APRS payloads regularly might need more work (as I doubt the likes of UPU would want to be manually running the import script for every US flight).
[21:29] <Randomskk> with "km" hardcoded
[21:30] <mfa298> Having things like imperial is a start towards that but I suspect a better method of getting aprs data into the system might be desired
[21:30] <Randomskk> mfa298: that is already on the list, admittedly
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[21:30] <Randomskk> basically you'll just make a flight doc and instead of selecting a payload doc, you select APRS callsigns
[21:30] <mfa298> Randomskk: I'm not suprised, seeing the number of APRS flights that have been imported recently.
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[21:42] <jcoxon> hehe
[21:45] <jcoxon> no launch from me for this weekend
[21:45] <craag> jcoxon: :(
[21:45] <jcoxon> too windy
[21:46] <craag> Fair enough
[21:47] <mfa298> seems like we've had summer, back to strong winds and rain now.
[21:48] <arko> is it always like that?
[21:48] <jcoxon> arko, perhaps?
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[21:50] <mfa298> regardless of the reality it's the british thing to complain about the weather and the lack of sun/rain/snow (or whatever we've not had enough of recently)
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[21:56] <Randomskk> W0OTM: altitude now available in imperial feet
[21:57] <mattbrejza> are furlongs avaliable yet?
[21:58] <Randomskk> going to add all the units of length
[21:58] <nigelvh> What about plank lengths?
[21:58] <Randomskk> did I stutter? I said all.
[21:58] <eroomde> without scientific notation
[21:58] <Randomskk> Es would just get confusing
[21:58] <jcoxon> how about how many girrafes something is
[21:58] <Randomskk> I'm sure that's now enshrined
[21:58] <Randomskk> thanks randall
[21:58] <nigelvh> As long as it's the standard giraffe
[21:59] <Randomskk> happily 1 giraffe is 5m so we're all good here
[21:59] <jcoxon> isn't a lunar_lander a unit?
[21:59] <Randomskk> of time?
[21:59] <Randomskk> one coxon kilometer per lunar_lander?
[21:59] <nigelvh> HAHAHA
[21:59] <eroomde> i think forearms are more sensible anyway
[21:59] <mattbrejza> than feet?
[21:59] <Randomskk> I was thinking of smoots
[21:59] <eroomde> yes
[22:00] <eroomde> when measureing shelves
[22:00] <Randomskk> angstroms
[22:00] <nigelvh> Tomes
[22:00] <Randomskk> also possibly just randomly select between competing definitions for units
[22:00] <Randomskk> there are _so_ many ways to measure 1ft!
[22:00] <nigelvh> MY foot
[22:01] <nigelvh> Or a lumber inch
[22:01] <eroomde> let's get adam dunville to sample ukhas's foot size
[22:01] <nigelvh> Since when has a 2x4 been actually 2x4?
[22:01] <Randomskk> frequentists would have me believe there's one true foot, if only we could estimate it well enough
[22:01] <eroomde> or was it balloonnews
[22:01] <Randomskk> but I think I'm going to swap the whole system to a bayesian approach
[22:01] <Randomskk> and give probability distributions for the altitude based just on using imperial units of measurements that give you all this uncertainty
[22:02] <nigelvh> "It's damn high!"
[22:02] <Randomskk> I say "1ft" and I could mean anything from 0.25 to 0.40 metres!"
[22:02] <Randomskk> I think the interface should probably show that
[22:02] <Randomskk> I wonder if it's normally distributed
[22:02] <eroomde> see how well the ukahs foot distribution models metric
[22:03] <eroomde> ivent the Kullbck-Leibler-Greig Habvergeance
[22:03] <nigelvh> Mine is 10 and 5/16"
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[22:04] <nigelvh> Now available in perpetuity for tab measurements.
[22:04] <Randomskk> nigelvh: but what inches?
[22:04] <nigelvh> the foot as defined by nigelvh
[22:04] <Randomskk> you can't tell me what 1ft is in inches
[22:04] <Randomskk> that's self defeating
[22:04] <nigelvh> I'll define the nigelvh inch as 2.54cm
[22:04] <Randomskk> 1' is 12" precisely
[22:04] <Randomskk> that's more like it
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> jcoxon, yea someone defined 1 Lunar = 22568 m
[22:05] <eroomde> OH WOW
[22:05] <eroomde> "Shoe size in the United Kingdom (British size) is based on the length of the last, measured in barleycorn "
[22:05] <eroomde> from wikipedia
[22:05] <Randomskk> excellent
[22:05] <eroomde> "An adult size one is then the next size up (8T in or 22.01 cm) and each size up continues the progression in barleycorns."this is incredible
[22:06] <mfa298> we need airspeed measured in units of an unladen swallow
[22:06] <Randomskk> oh good, I note that the international ft is two parts per million shorter than the US foot
[22:06] <eroomde> i need to have barleycorns for balloon alt
[22:06] <nigelvh> African or european swallow?
[22:06] <chrisstubbs> mfa298, aha
[22:06] <eroomde> WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
[22:06] <Randomskk> starting to think I might need to make it a dropdown instead of just a tickbox
[22:06] <Randomskk> one for distance and one for time
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[22:07] <Randomskk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_humorous_units_of_measurement
[22:07] <Randomskk> beard-seconds
[22:07] <nigelvh> HAHA
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: time dilation is the only sensible height measure
[22:08] <mfa298> just need to link it into wolfram alpha
[22:08] <eroomde> you have a point
[22:08] <eroomde> he has a point Randomskk
[22:08] <Randomskk> lol
[22:08] <Randomskk> their API is pay-for
[22:08] <Randomskk> or I might
[22:08] <nigelvh> Then how do you measure time?
[22:09] <nigelvh> Fortnights?
[22:09] <nigelvh> Lunar cycles?
[22:09] <nigelvh> The time it takes a pendulum with a length of 1m to swing?
[22:09] <Randomskk> today's google doodle is great
[22:10] <Randomskk> nigelvh: ... on jupiter
[22:10] <nigelvh> Now you're thinking
[22:10] <nigelvh> Or relate the megafonzie to time/space in some way.
[22:11] <chrisstubbs> can we have the rate in megaparsecs per nanosecond?
[22:12] <nigelvh> 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000....
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[22:12] <mfa298> might need a checkbox to enable the less standard units or those dropdowns might get large.
[22:13] <chrisstubbs> http://bit.ly/13iGbGa seems more sensible
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[22:13] <SpeedEvil> a back of the envelope calculation seems to say the atomic clocks on eBay are not good enough by several orders of magnitude to measure the time dilation at 40 km
[22:13] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "[UKHAS] UKHAS Conference 2013"
[22:14] <nigelvh> Just get a hydrogen maser
[22:14] <Randomskk> oooh
[22:14] <jonsowman> no ukhas conf for me this year then
[22:14] <jonsowman> :(
[22:14] <Randomskk> you away?
[22:14] <Randomskk> (hi jonsowman! how's it going?)
[22:15] <jonsowman> yeah, on holiday 4-11th sept :(
[22:15] <jonsowman> also hi :D going well thanks, how's things?
[22:15] <Randomskk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Units_of_length
[22:15] <Randomskk> hmm
[22:15] <jonsowman> how did f10 go?
[22:15] <Randomskk> not as bad as it could have been
[22:15] <Randomskk> though not great
[22:15] <Randomskk> leaving the library for the last time was good
[22:15] <jonsowman> sounds reasonably positive
[22:15] <jonsowman> haha yep
[22:16] <jonsowman> such a good feeling
[22:16] <Randomskk> had a somewhat spaced out day after it finshed
[22:16] <jonsowman> yeah
[22:16] <jonsowman> has been a good couple of days :D
[22:16] <Randomskk> nice nice
[22:16] <jonsowman> back to reality tomorrow though
[22:16] <Randomskk> today has been quiet
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[22:16] <Randomskk> catching up on sleep and reading web comics kind of thing
[22:16] <jonsowman> sounds good
[22:16] <Randomskk> need to tidy my room and begin project this evening
[22:17] <jonsowman> woo
[22:17] <Randomskk> can anyone think of any units they'd want that are not on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Units_of_length
[22:17] <Randomskk> and also on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Units_of_time
[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> actually it made me wonder that the french made the meter and kilogram definition
[22:17] <K9JKM> ... furlongs per fortnight?
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[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> and on the other hand, parts of their science were like very descriptive qualitatively but not quantitatively
[22:18] <Randomskk> K9JKM: you will note that "furlong" is on the first link and "fortnight" on the second
[22:18] <K9JKM> hwh
[22:18] <K9JKM> heh
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> maybe you heard that Gay-Lussac went up in a balloon twice in 1804 to measure magnetic deviation with altitude
[22:18] <K9JKM> Yeah, was trying find a creative way to combine them
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> his temperature records for example were severely flawed due to solar radiation
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> also, he only took a few temperature records along the way
[22:19] <fsphil> sun doesn't do much else really
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> also they were not that much aware of the physiological dangers
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[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> in 1850, two scientists planned to go to 12 km
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> fortunately, one has to say, for some reason, a net too small for the balloon was chosen
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> so the ascent had to be aborted
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[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> there was no oxygen equipment onboard
[22:26] <heathkid> finally! I have UI-View32 working properly and it's updating to aprs.fi
[22:26] <heathkid> :)
[22:26] <heathkid> whew!
[22:27] <fsphil> the P in APRS is for PAIN
[22:28] <heathkid> no kidding!
[22:28] <Randomskk> god, compiling all these units is tedious sodding work
[22:28] <jonsowman> do i even want to know what you're doing?
[22:29] <Randomskk> someone observed that spacenear.us only uses metric
[22:29] <jonsowman> lol
[22:29] <mfa298> just have to persaude people to use rtty for position information,
[22:29] <Randomskk> which might be confusing for americans who have grown up with the imperial system
[22:29] <jonsowman> i see
[22:29] <Randomskk> halfway through implementing american statutory feet, I realised that's also not really inclusive
[22:29] <Randomskk> ancient mesopotians may also need to use the tracker
[22:29] <Randomskk> and be confused by the lack of appropriate units
[22:29] <Randomskk> now I'm adding *all* the units
[22:30] <Randomskk> including arpents as used in french north america, which is 180 french feet (the Paris arpent was 220 french feet)
[22:30] <Randomskk> and a french foot is of course shorter than an english foot
[22:30] <jonsowman> that is a serious concern
[22:30] <Randomskk> all the time units too
[22:31] <Randomskk> so your rates can be appropriate
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[22:31] <jonsowman> or inappropriate, as you wish
[22:31] <Randomskk> feel free to help
[22:31] <jonsowman> as worthy a cause as i deem this to be
[22:31] <jonsowman> i'm busy doing nothing
[22:31] <jonsowman> :)
[22:31] <Randomskk> "France has a unique history of units of measurement due to radical attempts to adopt a metric system following the French Revolution."
[22:32] <jonsowman> lol
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> they went to a ten hour day at one point dissnt they?
[22:36] Action: mfa298 wonders how long until someone annouces a launch using something other than a standard format date in the gregorian calendar
[22:37] <Randomskk> ugh
[22:37] <Randomskk> a bolt is a different length depending on whether it's canvas or cloth
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[22:39] <Randomskk> cable lengths are different for international, admirality and US customary
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> SpeedEvil, yeah I think they once tried to get away from the 60 minute hour and so on
[22:41] <craag> mfa298: Or any part of the announcement: Expected burst for upcoming launch at 3.78 MBarleycorns.
[22:41] <craag> sorry Mbarleycorns
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: and don't even go into how many different sorts of thread that bolt might have
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[22:51] <Randomskk> nice, "Day's Journey"
[22:52] <Randomskk> good unit
[22:52] <jonsowman> lol
[22:53] <Randomskk> I have problems when units are defined in terms of other ambiguous units
[22:54] <Randomskk> mostly you can just use whichever of those other units would have been common at the time though
[22:54] <Randomskk> ooh, guess how big a digit is, rough guess
[22:54] <jonsowman> |<----->|
[22:54] <Randomskk> yes... except in astronomy where it's one 12th the diameter of the sun or moon
[22:54] <jonsowman> "or"
[22:54] <Randomskk> yes
[22:55] <Randomskk> or
[22:55] <jonsowman> lol
[22:55] <jonsowman> nice
[22:57] <Randomskk> "dragstrip, premiere"
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[23:34] <Randomskk> I'm getting bored
[23:34] <Randomskk> 120 units so far
[23:34] <Randomskk> 31 of them feet before I gave up on feet and moved on
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[23:49] <W0OTM> Randomskk: thank you
[23:49] <W0OTM> new option is nice
[23:50] <W0OTM> where did W0OTM-11 go?
[23:50] <Randomskk> should get rate working quickly I guess
[23:50] <Randomskk> got distracted making the new thing
[23:50] <Randomskk> I think upu stopped the script for now
[23:50] <Randomskk> just shout when you want it run
[23:50] <W0OTM> Oh ok
[23:51] <W0OTM> the aprs script I wrote went to sleep if the position hadn't changed for 5 min
[23:51] <Randomskk> it's more about keeping the tracker clear of testing data etc
[23:51] <Randomskk> rather than using server resources or anythingh
[23:51] <W0OTM> agh, gotcha
[00:00] --- Thu May 9 2013