highaltitude.log.20130507

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[01:34] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
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[04:20] <arko> dang it.. Hilary Hahn is performing here at Disney Hall tomorrow and i forgot to buy tickets >_<
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[05:14] <arko> http://candies.aniwey.net/
[05:17] <arko> game gets better when you execute javascipt on your own
[05:17] <arko> http://i.imgur.com/MVwAbxN.png
[05:19] <nigelvh> I want candies!
[05:19] <arko> easy
[05:20] <arko> run
[05:20] <arko> javascript:candies.setNbrOwned(90000000000);void(0);
[05:20] <arko> boom candies
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[05:22] <nigelvh> How do I not die when I eat 899999992162 candies?
[05:23] <arko> try not to eat them all
[05:23] <nigelvh> Why not?
[05:23] <arko> thats a lot of candies
[05:23] <nigelvh> So?
[05:23] <nigelvh> If that many candies hasn't killed me, I must nearly be invincible.
[05:24] <arko> yes
[05:24] <nigelvh> Also, I used a pile of the candies to get a candy diamond sword, so I'm killinz shit.
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[05:26] <nigelvh> Also there appears to be something like a heat seeking arrow which is annoying.
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[06:03] <griffonbot> @steamfire: I think I finally have a 1976 Standard Atmosphere GScript library for Google Sheets, now to figure out how to share it cleanly... #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/steamfire/status/331650443304386560]
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[07:57] <Futurity> Morning, I'm thinking of kicking off the investigation into insurance and was wondering where on the WIKI would be the best place to link to a new page on Insurance?
[07:58] <Futurity> http://ukhas.org.uk/
[07:58] <Futurity> Would linking from here be ok to start with? http://ukhas.org.uk/frontpage:general
[07:58] <Futurity> I can always move it later on
[07:59] <jonsowman> that's fine Futurity
[08:00] <Futurity> Thanks, time to learn the wiki formatting ;)
[08:01] <jonsowman> it's not too bad once you get used to it
[08:01] <jonsowman> like anything I suppose
[08:02] <Futurity> Yes
[08:02] <Futurity> If I can do html and javascript, i'm sure it'll be no problem
[08:03] <Futurity> this investigation into insurance may go nowhere, but at least after I've tried, I'll know for sure
[08:03] <jonsowman> and documented it, just as importantly
[08:06] <Futurity> Exactly, that way anyone picking this up in the future can continue on with it, hence the wiki page
[08:08] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Flight Announcements - Elsworth launch fest
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[08:20] <Futurity> I've just created a very basic page on Insurance (sorry for the lack of formatting, but I'd rather make a start and get something up there);
[08:20] <Futurity> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:insurance
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[08:21] <Futurity> If anyone is around, please can you have a quick read (its very short) and let me know if there are any mistakes or missing sections that need adding
[08:22] <jonsowman> only thing I'd point out is that list discussions have happened and last time it got a bit silly and ended up being moderated iirc
[08:23] <jonsowman> so read the archives before emailing again
[08:23] <jonsowman> I imagine a new discussion will descend into the pros/cons/blah blah
[08:23] <mattbrejza> lol the last one...
[08:24] <jonsowman> in fact I actually advise against emailing the list again. if you really have to, make it very specific rather than just "does anyone have any thoughts"
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[08:29] <Futurity> jonsowman: very good point
[08:30] <Futurity> Do you have a link to the archives handy?
[08:30] <jonsowman> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/ukhas
[08:30] <jonsowman> search for "insurance" should find the massive thread from a few months ago
[08:30] <Futurity> and yes, makes sense that if I have to email the list, it needs to be for something very specific, like accident reports
[08:31] <jonsowman> thanks on behalf of the moderation team ;)
[08:31] <Futurity> No problem. Glad that I asked on here first ;)
[08:33] <mfa298> emailing the list might make more sense when you've got some real idea of what's possible (after talking to some brokers). I think last time a lot of discussion was based on what people thought rather than based on fact.
[08:34] <Futurity> i agree. I'll see how much information I can gather from the archives first and discuss on here before making any postings to the mailing list
[08:34] <Futurity> After reading the first post, I'm wondering how much i can and cant include on the wiki from users posts
[08:35] <jonsowman> the list archives are public
[08:35] <Futurity> I guess if I don't mention any names then that would be ok?
[08:35] <Futurity> I see, so you feel its fine to include parts of postings within the Wiki (quotes)
[08:35] <jonsowman> yes, I don't think that's an issue
[08:35] <mfa298> you could always summarise the posts and provide links back to the archive
[08:35] <jonsowman> anyone who searched google for the same terms would find the list archives anyway
[08:36] <Futurity> we can always remove it if someone asks
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[10:06] Nick change: nick____ -> nick_
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[10:22] <Babs> Morning sports fans. Has anyone spoke to DM in the last few days? I called him about an application a few times over the past week but it has gone straight to VM.
[10:23] <eroomde> maybe 'just don;t pick up' is the new coping strategy
[10:23] <Babs> When I spoke to him before he said "yes, these balloons have become very popular over the past two years"
[10:23] <Babs> EDIT: it has trebled his wokload
[10:24] <Babs> *workload. I don't think he's having jumbo portions of chinese food or anything
[10:24] <cuddykid> lol
[10:24] <cuddykid> might have trebled his wokload to cope with the trebled workload
[10:25] <Babs> cuddykid - saw your glider design. is that for the eroomde autonomous X-prize thing?
[10:25] <Babs> lol
[10:25] <cuddykid> Babs: not x-prize, just an attempt at getting an autonomous glider to fly back from burst
[10:26] <Babs> Looks awesome. I'll put up a bar of Dairy Milk if you get it working. It's not all about the £10m prizes you know.
[10:27] <Babs> Will you have to get any further permissions?
[10:28] <cuddykid> :)
[10:28] <cuddykid> well, we can't legally fly it in the UK
[10:28] <cuddykid> CAA unfortunately won't use common sense and class it as any other UAV incl military drones etc
[10:29] <Babs> There's no upside for them I guess. No one gives them a pat on the back if it works, if it beheads a local politician they get hauled before the commons select committee.
[10:30] <Babs> I've wondered whether you could use a controlled chute
[10:31] <Babs> it classifies as a parachute (tick), there is no mention of not controlling the parachute in the regs (tick)
[10:31] <fsphil> that's the plan I have for using a parafoil
[10:31] <fsphil> it's just a really wide chute
[10:32] <fsphil> that said I haven't even gotten it in the air yet, so it'll be a looong time before I get to try it :)
[10:33] <Babs> What is the shortest distance Isle of Man to the UK fsphil?
[10:33] <Babs> or Isle of Man Ireland
[10:33] <fsphil> it's closest to scotland
[10:34] <gonzo__> is an uncontrolled glider allowed then?
[10:34] <fsphil> about the same distance from england to ni
[10:34] <cuddykid> I did have a think about a controlled chute but it's more complicated to get working and control
[10:34] <Babs> UNless you are able to carry heroin, tracksuits or prescription painkillers in the payload no one in Scotland would be interested
[10:34] <cuddykid> gonzo__: yep
[10:35] <cuddykid> probably end up flying it in spain or somewhere else where they permit it
[10:36] <gonzo__> so uncontroled is ok, and can go and land anywhere. one controled that will land in a defiled area, not allowed. Does start to feel like someone at CAA hasn't though this through
[10:37] <cuddykid> well, I think the idea is that if it's controlled it can be used for bad purposes
[10:37] <fsphil> controlled would imply it's useful for transportation - they may be worried about people getting bad stuff in
[10:37] <fsphil> never mind that we're launching and landing in the same country
[10:37] <cuddykid> I'm not even sure they'd be able to detect the glider (just over 1m wingspan) on their radar..
[10:40] <cuddykid> oh yes, I was given the option of containing it inside the salford danger area
[10:40] <Babs> cuddykid - Make it stealth!
[10:40] <cuddykid> ;)
[10:41] <gonzo__> from mem, the unofficial min radar target area req for atc to see iot is about 2M^2. And needs to be reflectiove. So I suspect even full size gliders don't show up
[10:41] <Babs> I heard that the Americans got the stealth design from a Russian academic's paper on the radar reflectivity of diamond structures.
[10:41] <Babs> Someone in Moscow must have got hauled over the coals for that one.
[10:41] <Laurenceb> yo eroomde
[10:42] <gonzo__> they are talking about making transponders mandatory on piloted gliders soon. A headache for the glider boys.
[10:42] <gonzo__> expense and some serious battery reqs for long flights
[10:42] <Laurenceb> i was suffering from insomnia....
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[10:42] <Laurenceb> so i did a redesign of that "MARD" thing
[10:42] <Laurenceb> ... with no moving parts
[10:43] <Babs> Boeing have got a bunch of lithium ion batteries going cheap apparently.
[10:43] <Laurenceb> lol
[10:44] Action: Laurenceb starts drawing diagram...
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[11:01] <SpeedEvil> on that sort of topic.
[11:02] <SpeedEvil> I realised there is a source of very, very cheap lead acid batteries.
[11:02] <SpeedEvil> scrap batteries, about to be sold as scrap
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> about £200/ton.
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> offer moderately more than this if you can go through a pile.
[11:03] <Laurenceb> nice
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> yes,you will need to cope with failing batteries in your setup.
[11:04] <SpeedEvil> but you can just drop those off with the next pickup.
[11:04] Action: SpeedEvil is idly wondering about running on 100% night rate electricity.
[11:05] <griffonbot> Received email: "[UKHAS] iHAB-10 Launch Announcement"
[11:06] Action: Laurenceb is still drawing increasingly complex diagram
[11:07] <gonzo__> we should invest in a submarine power cable to .au
[11:07] <Darkside> wat
[11:07] <gonzo__> then we can use their electricity when it's night rate and vici versa
[11:07] <Darkside> lol
[11:07] <Darkside> i think the losses might be a bit high
[11:08] <gonzo__> hhe, yep, but what a good fiddle
[11:09] Action: SpeedEvil did the numbers to work out how much current it would take to generate the magnetic field of earth.
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> it's surprisingly modest
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> a few years output of aluminium, and a couple of power stations
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure what would happen in reality if you tried it.
[11:11] <SpeedEvil> (was wondering in context of giving the moon a magnetosphere.
[11:12] <gonzo__> concentrate the cosmic wind down to a small area. Wonder what you coukld do with it?
[11:12] <gonzo__> you could magnetorque the the moon's attitude
[11:12] <Darkside> >_>
[11:13] <Darkside> dude
[11:13] <fsphil> could the moon maintain an atmosphere with a similar pressure to the earths?
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> not for geologic times
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> but for a good long while
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> there is basically no volatile gas on the moon though
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> no nitrogen, water, ...
[11:14] <fsphil> well possibly some water ice
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> (in quantities enough to put 75 tons/m^2 of gas there)
[11:14] <fsphil> yea it won't be that much
[11:15] <SpeedEvil> you can get oxygen in quantity.
[11:15] <SpeedEvil> but then there is no carbon
[11:15] <SpeedEvil> if you could move a sizeable fraction of the atmosphere from Venus, it might almost work.
[11:16] <fsphil> probably easier to do it on mars
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> true
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> shade Venus, and you end up with a co2 ocean with atmosphere above
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> on which in principle you could al,most live in shirt sleeve conditions on the ocean on rafts
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> (with breath masks)
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> I did not do the numbers enough to work out if you can get photosyntherically useful amounts of light down without heating it up
[11:19] <fsphil> venus's slow rotation would be a pain
[11:20] <gonzo__> the working days would drag!
[11:22] <Laurenceb> done
[11:23] <Laurenceb> heres where i lose all patent rights
[11:23] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/FgB4ra1.png
[11:23] <Laurenceb> involves a nutty hot heat exchanger
[11:23] <Laurenceb> but no moving parts other than valves
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[11:31] <Laurenceb> unfortunately for me.. USAF research lab is working on same idea
[11:31] <Laurenceb> so no patents
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> this is to avoid tank pressurants?
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> catalysts are annoying
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering about using kerosene with entrained encapsulated permanganate
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> just get dyson to sponsor you
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> also, I wonder about carbon in the water
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> also - 'steam regulator valve' isnt that liquid?
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> oh, right
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> also, h202 plus kerosene isn't as low as 850c once it's gone through a catalyst
[12:05] <Laurenceb> its only h2o2 through the cat
[12:05] <Laurenceb> also my temperatures are wrong
[12:05] <Laurenceb> looked up the data and done full thermodynamics now
[12:05] <Laurenceb> fuel gets a bit toasty
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> 'steam regulator valve, - fuel plus oxidisrr goes through that into the steam catalyst
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> alcohol may help a little
[12:07] <Laurenceb> no only h2o2, thats why its blue
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> ah
[12:08] <Laurenceb> apparently jet engine design spec is <205C fuel max temp
[12:10] <Laurenceb> mil stuff is 263C
[12:11] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/pFBf9kA.png
[12:11] <Laurenceb> with proper thermodynamics and data
[12:11] <Laurenceb> doh s/380C/280C
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[12:14] <Laurenceb> but the gas outlet isnt silly hot, so might be useful...
[12:14] <Laurenceb> there is another way to do this idea....
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[12:14] <Laurenceb> supercritical H2O2 heated via exchanger in the combustion chamber
[12:15] <Laurenceb> but that gets nutty as it has to circulate fast to avoid decomposing
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> from memory, I was just raining at a syringe driver filled with h2o2, to a catalyst and thence a heat exchanger against the fuel for pressurwnt
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> but this was a very silly minimalist rocket.
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> with control made out of an assymetric rotating nozzle extension (or tab in the exhaust) that simply rotated constantly if there was no need for correction
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> s/raining/aiming/
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[13:14] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[13:25] <Laurenceb> hmm this gets more interesting...
[13:25] <Laurenceb> so if you use H2O2/ethanol is will work just using giffard injectors
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[13:44] <Laurenceb> http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2010-7057
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[13:47] <SpeedEvil> interesting
[13:47] Action: SpeedEvil bookmarks.
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[13:51] <Laurenceb> they stole my ideas :-/
[13:51] <Laurenceb> "pre-stole"
[13:51] <Laurenceb> also its stupidly simple
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[13:54] <SpeedEvil> i was especially annoyed to come across a patent for a pistonless catalyst driven pump a week after I found a sheet of a4 written a decade before grant that outlined the same content.
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> you should never ever be able to patent a solution that a non-exceptional engineer can come up with in half an hour faced by the sake problem.
[13:56] <SpeedEvil> same problem.
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[13:59] <Laurenceb> figure 6 is interesting
[14:02] Action: SpeedEvil gets back to cleaning out his greenhouse.
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[14:43] <cuddykid> daveake: how does your acetylene hose connect up to the filler tube? Currently my set up for helium is just plenty of gaffer tape, but it would be better to create some sort of bung I think
[14:44] <daveake> I fill the tube with expanding foam
[14:44] <cuddykid> great idea
[14:45] <cuddykid> I've got a 10m length of acetylene - I think I'll cut it in 1/2 as 10m is a rather long length
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[15:34] <chrisstubbs> Afternoon
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[15:35] <chrisstubbs> Upu about?
[15:35] <UpuWork> depends if its complex
[15:36] <chrisstubbs> Ah still at work, no probs
[15:36] <chrisstubbs> was going to see if your free to go over my PCB
[15:36] <UpuWork> yup will be home shortly
[15:36] <UpuWork> later on :)
[15:36] <chrisstubbs> no worries, whenever suits you
[15:44] <griffonbot> @steamfire: Saturate the helium with alcohol in a clear balloon at high altitude, would you have a giant radiation detecting cloud chamber? #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/steamfire/status/331796731438186497]
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[15:56] <Babs> Pop quiz: Assuming that the helium in a balloon is enough to leave the whole package (balloon, parachute, string etc.) neutrally buoyant, does the additional amount of lift required to get the thing up at an acceptable rate vary with package, or should it always be at a certain value (which I assume is about 800g)?
[15:57] <Babs> I'm assuming that other than air resistance of a larger vs. a smaller balloon as it travels upwards (which I am going to ignore), it shouldn't really vary
[15:58] <Babs> sorry, will rephrase, "does the additional amount of lift required to get the thing up at an acceptable rate vary with payload weight"
[16:04] <chrisstubbs> Babs, i wouldnt have thought so. but you might want a second opinion on that one
[16:04] <chrisstubbs> negating air resistance it should all just be free lift
[16:04] <Babs> Thanks Chrisstubbs. Do you usually work around the 800g level over neutral buoyancy?
[16:05] <chrisstubbs> my last payload was like 450g and we went for 1200g lift
[16:05] <chrisstubbs> so about that yeah
[16:06] <Babs> Just for good order, how long to burs on that basis?
[16:07] <Babs> *burst
[16:07] <chrisstubbs> 50-60 mins
[16:07] <chrisstubbs> for my 300g balloon
[16:07] <chrisstubbs> Babs, http://habhub.org/calc/
[16:10] <Babs> Thanks, 32km is my friend on that one I think. Cheers.
[16:11] <Babs> 33000 lists possible floater. I'm not sure whether that refers to atmospheric or lavatorial. Either way I'm not taking that chance.
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[16:15] <mfa298> Babs: I think with some of the larger balloons (e.g. 1600 if the ascent is too slow there's a chance of it floating rather than bursting) which I'm guessing is what you're getting there.
[16:18] <Babs> thanks mfa298 - the config i have should get me north of 5.5m/s ascent rate which looks north of the 5m/s that most seem to aim for (only because target altitude is lower than everyone else at 32km) so I am guessing that that looks acceptable. It is crazy how much the ascent rate drops off to get to a given altitude beyond this point.
[16:20] <arko> morning
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[16:22] <chrisstubbs> hey arko
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[16:23] <mfa298> Babs: I think the risk of float was for something like 2-3 m/s so I'd guess 5.5 should be ok
[16:23] <arko> wassup
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[16:24] <chrisstubbs> just been setting up a qwebirc server
[16:24] <chrisstubbs> looks to be working :)
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[16:25] <eroomde> Babs: it's because the atmosphere drops off in a similarly crazy way
[16:27] <Babs> Thanks mfa298. Eroomde - yes. It's weird though, you know it happens but when you see the numbers it's still a little mindblowing. I remember James May talking about the Veyron going through the equivalent of treacle at 250mph as air resistance goes rapidly up at that speed and being similarly mindblown
[16:27] <eroomde> don;t learn science from james may :)
[16:28] <eroomde> i suspect he's talking poopynonesense
[16:28] <Babs> Plus I guess there is some effect there of the diameter of the balloon rapidly approaching the elastic to plastic deformation crossover point where it becomes really really difficult to inflate it anymore (albeit I don't know whether the calculator takes that into account)
[16:28] <eroomde> that would be massive
[16:28] <eroomde> that's what you get near burst
[16:29] <eroomde> anyone launching with a dimater that's flirting with the elastic limit will probbaly only make it to 1km anyway
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[16:31] <Babs> I'm dead intrigued by the sky anchor idea. Time to recover my lecture notes from my mother's loft and get down to some serious maths for the first time in 17 years.
[16:32] <Babs> and get the fiance to make me a perfectly spherical net to hold the anchor balloon in.
[16:33] <eroomde> it sounds intriguiing
[16:33] <eroomde> and i think superpressure balloons are easier to make at small sizes
[16:33] <Laurenceb> eroomde: ever come across giffard injectors for rocketry?
[16:33] <eroomde> they're just straight spheres rather than pumpkins (when minimising a max accelptable material strength criterion)
[16:34] <eroomde> Laurenceb: not to my knoweldge
[16:34] <eroomde> i might know them by a different name
[16:34] <Laurenceb> i was thinking it looks quite an interesting topic
[16:34] <Babs> (I think) the maths should be pretty easy and probably limited to solving a set of simultaneous equations once the variance of atmospheric density (presumably the wrong term) with altitude is known
[16:35] <Laurenceb> also: www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/273836.pdf
[16:35] <eroomde> might be the right term but my background is stats so it has a specific meaning to me
[16:36] <eroomde> speaking of variance, Laurenceb got the receiver working with a vector kalman filter
[16:36] <eroomde> i.e. all the predicted phases and freqs use knowledge of where all the sats are in the sky relative to each other
[16:36] <eroomde> it's halved the standard dev ellipses again
[16:36] <Laurenceb> nice
[16:37] <eroomde> can more or less get the ellipse to fit on a single desk for 1khz samples
[16:37] Action: Laurenceb is getting obsessed with giffard injectors
[16:37] <Laurenceb> thats impressive
[16:37] <eroomde> pdf downloading
[16:38] <Laurenceb> i came up with this: http://i.imgur.com/pFBf9kA.png
[16:38] <Laurenceb> then i read http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2010-7057
[16:38] <Laurenceb> i fail
[16:38] <Babs> Using stats to make more accurate results with more limited hardware is a long neglected art in these days of super accurate measurement hardware
[16:39] <cuddykid> RocketBoy: ping
[16:39] <Babs> The victorians were great at that kind of thing.
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: wow ( GPS)
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[16:42] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[16:51] <eroomde> Babs: i agree. it's why i got into this area
[16:51] <eroomde> the future is cheaper hardware and smarter processing
[16:51] <eroomde> I think
[16:51] <W0OTM> Howdy
[16:51] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: that's the 1-standard-deviation ellipse
[16:52] <eroomde> not quite at the stage of *everything* fitting on the desk just yet :)
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[17:04] <W0OTM> my new APRS platter. https://twitter.com/W0OTM/status/331816599122235392/photo/1
[17:05] <W0OTM> and cross band repeater https://twitter.com/W0OTM/status/331816777518551040/photo/1
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[17:08] <Babs> W0OTM - nice artistic flourish on the APRS milled polystyrene bit. Engineering can be beautiful.
[17:09] <eroomde> also 'platter' is a delicious worth for a tray of electronics
[17:09] <eroomde> word*
[17:10] <eroomde> babs is getting polystyrene envy
[17:10] <eroomde> + an altoids tin
[17:10] <eroomde> glorious
[17:14] <Babs> eroomde - truth :-(
[17:21] <arko> i need to get a nicer mill
[17:21] <Babs> I don't even have a mill.
[17:22] <Babs> I now have mill envy too.
[17:24] <eroomde> i have a cnc bridgeport
[17:24] <eroomde> i say I, the 4 of us at work do
[17:24] <eroomde> and the cnc controller is a bit susceptible to cosmic ray events
[17:24] <eroomde> and it uses an older dialect of G-code that modern packages don;t speak often
[17:25] <arko> :O
[17:25] <eroomde> and basically we want to replace all that
[17:25] <arko> woah
[17:25] <arko> cnc bridgeport
[17:25] <arko> those are solid
[17:25] <Babs> I have a spiral freezer :-(
[17:25] <arko> i wish i had the space for one to begin with
[17:26] <BrainDamage> this is rather offtopic, but I think you guys should be able to appreciate http://www.wimp.com/curtacalculator/
[17:26] <Babs> Although if everyone ever gives up milling and instead want to freeze stuff continuously on a 45 minute running band, I'm your man.
[17:26] <arko> BrainDamage: those are great
[17:26] <arko> you can get a used one for under a grand if you are lucky
[17:27] <arko> on my list of calculators to add to my slide rule/calculator collection
[17:28] <arko> one day..
[17:29] <eroomde> Babs: what' thast used for normally?
[17:30] <Babs> eroomde http://www.pagespr.co.uk/Images/Vulganus_Arctic_spiral_freezer___croissant.jpg
[17:31] <eroomde> that was so scify intil the last word
[17:31] <eroomde> VULGANUS
[17:31] <eroomde> ARCTIC
[17:31] <eroomde> SPIRAL
[17:31] <eroomde> FREEZER
[17:31] <eroomde> MICHAEL BAY
[17:31] <eroomde> .... croissant
[17:31] <arko> LENS FLARE
[17:31] <Babs> (that isn't ours, but it basically takes product off a production line and freezes it down within 45 minutes on a continuous band. The clever thing is a) fitting it in a relatively small footprint (the line moves at about a half metre a second so the whole thing is about a km long, but it fits in a 7m by 7m footprint
[17:32] <eroomde> wow
[17:32] <Babs> and b) its a single continuous belt
[17:32] <eroomde> so these are so you can send them frozen and unbaked out to presumably supermarkets to cook them on-site :)
[17:32] <eroomde> s/:)/?
[17:33] <Babs> wow - until it goes wrong, and then it messes you up. 10 pies a second not getting cooled rapidly builds up.
[17:34] <arko> http://www.advancedfreezer.com/images/iqfportablespiral_rev.jpg
[17:34] <arko> looks like a hard drive from the 1950's
[17:34] <arko> curious how they make that belt
[17:34] <Babs> Ours are actually baked and then chilled down. So I really should say that ours is a spiral chiller. In the cake factory some are frozen so we have a spiral freezer. the only difference is how much you turn the dial down to.
[17:35] <Babs> arko - have you ever been to a hotel where they have one of those continuous toasters? bread in the bottom, goes to the back and then drops down kindofthing?
[17:35] <eroomde> have have made croissants a couple of times
[17:35] <arko> something out of How it's Made
[17:35] <eroomde> the efford/reward ratio is probably not quite worth it
[17:36] <arko> Babs yeah
[17:36] <arko> oh so it's chained?
[17:36] <Babs> its exactly the same, only with the linkages a bit smarter so the bands can be folded.
[17:36] <Babs> and a metre wide a km long.
[17:36] <Babs> chained. exactly.
[17:36] <arko> wont it be 2km then?
[17:36] <arko> since it wraps
[17:37] <arko> hmm ok, that explains how they would do the curving
[17:37] <arko> a single sheet belt would need to be curved by design/cutout
[17:37] <Babs> or ours is/are anyway. some people do plastic bits that fit together but I don't know the advantages/disadvantages of each.
[17:38] <Babs> Yes, its not a single sheet belt
[17:38] <arko> heh yeah, that would be a big pain to manufacture
[17:38] <Babs> the thing will always bust, twist or break, so making it modular makes it a lot easier to repair (like a bicycle chain)
[17:38] <arko> :P
[17:38] <arko> yeah
[17:38] <arko> makes sense
[17:38] <eroomde> have a pic of my croissants
[17:39] <arko> learn something everyday heh
[17:39] <Babs> Still, I'd rather have a CNC machine.
[17:39] <arko> agreed
[17:39] <arko> im sure i would enjoy a spiral cooler for like a day, sending random food i make down
[17:39] <arko> taking it to work and reheating
[17:39] <arko> but that wouldn't be as cool as a cnc
[17:40] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/pQsDMkT.jpg
[17:40] <eroomde> diy droissants ^
[17:40] <arko> wow
[17:41] <arko> those look good, just made em?
[17:41] <eroomde> be prepared to stay up late the night before when they don;t rise as fast as they should
[17:41] <eroomde> no made them a bit ago
[17:41] <arko> ah
[17:41] <eroomde> using the recipe from Tartine in SF
[17:42] <eroomde> and then I went to tartine to try one of theirs
[17:42] <eroomde> and it was good
[17:42] <Babs> I reckon everything is fascinating if you are engineering minded. Don't even get me started on how they make the muffins with the liquid inserts. Right, my bike calls, I'm going home to cry over my hand cut polystyrene. See you all later.
[17:42] <Babs> eroomde - nice!
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bBX8j_3eHI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> related
[17:43] <arko> damn it eroomde
[17:43] <arko> now i need to drive to SF
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> truly awesome YouTube channel
[17:44] <arko> those cakes look so good
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> including diy ct scanner
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[17:44] <arko> dude, Ben is going to give himself cancer
[17:44] <arko> if he hasn't already
[17:44] <arko> homemade xray's and what not
[17:45] <eroomde> tartine was amazing
[17:45] <eroomde> their ham and cheese toastie was A Thign Of Things
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> brave sir Robin screening is the best sort
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> 1/r^2
[17:45] <arko> i went to the website and closed it.. because i know i would get in my car after class and head there
[17:45] <arko> SpeedEvil: he's pretty smart
[17:45] <eroomde> watch ^
[17:46] <arko> was this an artisan video?
[17:46] <eroomde> yes
[17:46] <arko> haha
[17:46] <arko> dude, every night before going to sleep now i watch a few on that subreddit
[17:46] <arko> look what youve done
[17:46] <eroomde> :)
[17:46] <eroomde> right, dinner time
[17:47] <eroomde> i have a meeting with the cheese board
[17:47] <eroomde> let no man get in the way
[17:47] <arko> carry on
[17:47] <eroomde> bbl
[17:47] <arko> laters
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[17:49] <fsphil> cheese board. suspect my mental image of that is not accurate
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[17:50] <arko> bunch of cheeses in a conference room?
[17:51] <arko> discussing quartely earning
[17:51] <arko> s
[17:51] <fsphil> that'll be the british cheese board
[17:51] <fsphil> "The British Cheese Board is the voice of British cheese"
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: does treating the top and bottom half (say) of l1 differently - as independent channels - make sense?
[17:51] <fsphil> and they say "eat me!"
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> to work out iono error
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[17:52] <arko> god save the cheese
[17:56] <mfa298> vaguelly related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7rzSslub6U
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[17:58] <arko> damn it, now i want bread
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OLDMLEfhmQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[17:59] <fsphil> not cheese?
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[18:00] <SpeedEvil> not at all related
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[18:15] <chrisstubbs> http://bit.ly/10mbG2h thats a neat idea
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> patented, and really expensive
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> I'm going with 'don't touch the spinning blade'.
[18:17] <chrisstubbs> yeah :P
[18:17] <chrisstubbs> shame they dont make one for drills
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> also, staying out of the plane of rotation is a really good idea too
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> this is why visiting the equator is risky.
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> stuff might come flying off.
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[18:21] <chrisstubbs> Does anyone on here know Mike McRoberts?
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[18:47] <Laurenceb_> sup
[18:51] <x-f> nm, u?
[18:56] <x-f> SamSilver, hi. kokey was looking for you or your contact info - he's in RSA and planning to do a launch down there
[18:58] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: well they're all the same carrier freq in theory
[18:58] <eroomde> so i'm not sure what half means in the context
[19:01] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: so do you think injectors could be useful?
[19:01] <eroomde> ah right yes
[19:01] <eroomde> i couldn;t quite see what i was meant to be seeing
[19:02] <eroomde> they accelerated the gases then slowed them down again
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> that pdf with the "gas jet pump" was something even more insane
[19:02] <eroomde> + some kind of mixing region in the high speed bit
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> yeah, the 1958 pdf was something ive never come across
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> looked insane but it seemed to work
[19:02] <Laurenceb_> injectors were used on steam trains for decades
[19:03] <Laurenceb_> so they are more "normal"
[19:03] <eroomde> but i'm not sure why they're good?
[19:03] <eroomde> i.e. why is this good for rockets vs something else?
[19:03] <Laurenceb_> no moving parts
[19:03] <Laurenceb_> very low mass possible
[19:03] <Laurenceb_> like crazy low mass, hardly any mass at all
[19:03] <eroomde> very few injectors are moving or heavy though
[19:04] <eroomde> half of them are just holes drilled into the combustion chamber
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> this is in place of a turbopump
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> it pressurizes as well
[19:04] <eroomde> how?
[19:05] <eroomde> well, i see it slows down a flow just before the injector bit
[19:05] <eroomde> but there does it get its energy from?
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[19:06] <Laurenceb_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injector#Initial_scepticism
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> from thermal energy of the steam
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> its kind of cool
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> direct thermal to mechanical with no moving parts or vented gas
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: if you separate out the components of the l1 signal spectrally
[19:07] <Laurenceb_> the hard bit is getting the steam for it...
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: then measure skew due to iono
[19:09] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: wut
[19:09] <eroomde> oh ok so u assume a steam source eg h2o2 decomp
[19:09] <Laurenceb_> you mean look at the shape of the correlation peak?
[19:09] <Laurenceb_> thats done already on all good commercial stuff
[19:09] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: so u mean try and measure a low doppler and high doppler within the receiver bandpass?
[19:10] <eroomde> to get your two freqs to measure elecetrical path length
[19:10] <eroomde> ?
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: yeah but you need _pure_ steam
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> or it all dies horribly
[19:10] <eroomde> low doppler sat, high doppler sat *
[19:10] <Laurenceb_> that first paper i linked tried another route - boiling H2O2 and fuel
[19:11] <Laurenceb_> which is kind of insane...
[19:11] <Laurenceb_> but their numbers indicated it would work - im not convinced their paper is well explained tho
[19:11] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: imagine taking two channels, and one satellite signal. filter off the top and bottom frequency components of that signal, and feed into the two channels. this let's you measure the skew
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[19:30] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:31] <Upu> evening
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[19:33] <jcoxon> exam done
[19:33] <jcoxon> 6 hours
[19:33] <nigelvh> damn
[19:34] <jcoxon> high chance i'll be doing that again
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[19:37] <fsphil> eek
[19:37] <fsphil> 6 hour exam?
[19:38] <jcoxon> well 2x3hours
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[19:39] <mfa298> even 2x3 hours is nasty in one day.
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[19:41] <jcoxon> the nice thing is won't know hte result for a month
[19:41] <jcoxon> so can't worry about it
[19:45] <eroomde> like death on a smaller scale
[19:45] <jcoxon> hey eroomde
[19:46] <fsphil> death and exams
[19:48] <SamSilver> I am keen to help. Please forward my email addy david.mccash@gmail.com I have 2000g balloon, a proper parachute and two trackers and a beacon as well as two cameras
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[19:49] <eroomde> with death?
[19:49] <SamSilver> oops wrong box
[19:49] <SamSilver> was ment for pm
[19:50] <jcoxon> hehe, good to know though SamSilver
[19:53] <SamSilver> my death kit was an offer to help kokey
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[19:53] <SamSilver> g night
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[20:01] <mfa298> death or exams, Can I take cake instead ?
[20:04] <eroomde> death by cake
[20:04] <nigelvh> I dunno, I think there are potentially better ways to die.
[20:05] <nigelvh> Perhaps death by snu snu
[20:05] <mattbrejza> quick qn - decent gerber viewer/editor?
[20:05] <mattbrejza> (i want to combine two boards)
[20:05] <eroomde> gerbv for viewing
[20:06] <mattbrejza> yea ive heard of that one
[20:06] <mattbrejza> i seem not being able to find one last time
[20:09] <jcoxon> anyone tempted with a saturday launch
[20:11] <jcoxon> got an interesting flight path
[20:11] <jcoxon> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/1477_trj001.gif
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[20:13] <mfa298> that looks like a "how many countries can it be recieved from without going over them" route
[20:13] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:13] <jcoxon> my experience is often they turn later then the prediction says
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[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[20:40] <chrisstubbs> jcoxon, if i can get a 200g balloon to float with a 60g payload :P
[20:41] <chrisstubbs> also the signal will be awful
[20:41] <jcoxon> chrisstubbs, that would be a first :-p
[20:41] <jcoxon> 60g - any insulation?
[20:41] <chrisstubbs> yeah
[20:42] <chrisstubbs> 3x aaa's
[20:42] <jcoxon> whats the mimum it could be?
[20:42] <chrisstubbs> i think it was 60g at least
[20:42] <jcoxon> minimum*
[20:42] <jcoxon> as if it was 40g we could pico it
[20:42] <chrisstubbs> well its a 3.3v board
[20:42] <chrisstubbs> so 2 AAA's at minimum i guess
[20:43] <jcoxon> step up?
[20:43] <chrisstubbs> and i would have to crank the RFM22B up to 100mw to get 10mw ERP out
[20:43] <jcoxon> eek
[20:43] <chrisstubbs> its a bit of a bad design :P
[20:43] <jcoxon> perhaps it doesn't suit a pico
[20:43] <chrisstubbs> lol
[20:43] <chrisstubbs> i need to send that board to an epic grave sooner or later
[20:47] <jcoxon> we could fly dual balloon
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[20:48] <chrisstubbs> i was going to strap it to a spare 200g balloon and empty a disposable helium can into it
[20:50] <jcoxon> chrisstubbs, well i'm probably going to launch from suffolk on saturday
[20:50] <jcoxon> if the weather holds
[20:50] <chrisstubbs> oo cool :)
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[22:46] <heathkid> okay, trying UI-View32 now... anyone know how to set up the Digi routes?
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[00:00] --- Wed May 8 2013