highaltitude.log.20130425

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[05:14] <heathkid> anyone interested in a 12g HAB APRS tracker?
[05:14] <heathkid> it's *tiny*
[05:17] <nigelvh> I wouldn't be apposed to seeing it.
[05:17] <nigelvh> opposed*
[05:27] <heathkid> it should be available in a couple weeks
[05:27] <heathkid> just a little more testing to do
[05:28] <heathkid> I expect a launch in the next few days or so
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[05:30] <heathkid> from my testing here on the ground... I've never seen anything like it! Well... no one has yet.
[05:32] <nigelvh> Ok.
[05:34] <heathkid> nigelvh: stay tuned for updates....
[05:36] <Upu> is it one you've made yourself ?
[05:36] <Upu> or is the one Andy did ?
[05:36] <nigelvh> I will. I'll be pleased to hear more about it. So far all I've heard is that it's amazing but no real info. So I look forward to seeing more about it.
[05:37] <nigelvh> Anyway, time for me to hit the hay. Have a nice evening all.
[05:37] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/PCB%20Pictures/1.jpg ?
[05:40] <heathkid> nope... not that one
[05:40] <heathkid> we've been working on it for a while
[05:41] <heathkid> nite all...
[05:43] <KF7FER> So Upu... did I make it before the annual leave?
[05:44] <KF7FER> and well <sigh>
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[05:45] <Upu> yes Brad
[05:45] <Upu> still in today :)
[05:45] <Upu> oh btw
[05:45] <Upu> PM
[05:46] <KF7FER> whoo hoo! better lucky than good
[05:46] <Upu> I look forward to seeing it heathkid :)
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[06:05] <eroomde> morning
[06:13] <eroomde> arko: you up?
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[06:28] <arko> Yep
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[06:28] <arko> Just got home, chillin on the couch drinking tea
[06:29] <arko> We had rain today.. very rare
[06:29] <arko> Want to watch something engineering/sciency :/
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[06:31] <eroomde> whatcha watching?
[06:31] <arko> Netflix menu screen
[06:31] <eroomde> wrote kalman filter tracking for a gps sat tracking yesterday
[06:32] <arko> :O
[06:32] <arko> Woah
[06:32] <eroomde> it Just Worked (tm)
[06:32] <arko> Whats in the model?
[06:32] <eroomde> after i had spent a bit of time working out measurement noise covarience and stuff
[06:32] <eroomde> so the model per sat is
[06:32] <eroomde> code phase, rate of change of code phase, carrier phase, carrier freq, carrier doppler
[06:32] <eroomde> so 5 states
[06:32] <arko> Wow
[06:33] <arko> Thats a lot of states
[06:33] <eroomde> heh, that's the easy one! soon it will be all the sats together
[06:33] <eroomde> because you know their psoition relative to each other so you have a prior on arrival times
[06:33] <eroomde> that'll be like 50 states
[06:33] <arko> Yeah, but cookie cut that filter
[06:33] <arko> Like an imu is 3 states usually
[06:33] <arko> Per axis
[06:33] <eroomde> well, the filter has to be more complex because there will be cross term in the state transition matrix between all the sats
[06:34] <arko> 2 per axis even
[06:34] <eroomde> but yes, kalman() will still just take whatever matrices it's given
[06:34] <arko> Ohhh
[06:34] <arko> What lang did you dev on?
[06:35] <eroomde> but yeah, so we previously had PLL based tracking loops, and 1s of data produced 1000 position solutions (these a raw, before any filtering) and they had a varience of about 22m, 9m, 5m
[06:35] <eroomde> alt, lat, lon
[06:35] <eroomde> and then after the first stab at this kalman filter it was 11m, 3m, 2m
[06:35] <eroomde> boom
[06:36] <arko> Wow
[06:36] <eroomde> it was very pleasing
[06:36] <arko> Dude thata epic
[06:36] <eroomde> and that's without any actual position filtering - i.e. it has no idea of it's dynamics
[06:36] <eroomde> it is just trying to track the phases
[06:37] <arko> Damn it, this is the kinda stuff id want to discuss in detail over coffww
[06:37] <arko> Coffee
[06:37] <eroomde> it'll be way way better when you get positioney kalman filters
[06:37] <arko> Hmm
[06:37] <eroomde> i'm writing a little function to draw elliposoids in google earth
[06:37] <eroomde> of the variences and stuff, to make it easier to visulaise than a cloud of points
[06:37] <arko> Woah! Visualize!
[06:38] <eroomde> visuliase all the things
[06:38] <arko> Where do you think the largest covariance is?
[06:38] <eroomde> alt
[06:38] <eroomde> i know it's alt
[06:38] <arko> Really?
[06:38] <eroomde> yup
[06:39] <eroomde> that's the hardest to estimate because all the sats are above you
[06:39] <arko> Hmm
[06:39] <arko> Makes sense
[06:39] <eroomde> whereas for say longitude, you have sats to your west and to your east, which gives you a geometrically nicer way of doing the triangulation
[06:40] <eroomde> i don;t mean triangulation, i mean another word which has just escaped me
[06:40] <eroomde> trilateration
[06:40] <eroomde> that's the one
[06:40] <eroomde> as it's just time based
[06:40] <eroomde> but yeah it was cool yesterday
[06:41] <eroomde> and there were 2 rocket firings
[06:41] <eroomde> it was a good day
[06:41] <arko> :D exicting
[06:41] <eroomde> going to the uk maker faire tomorrow
[06:41] <arko> Man write it up, im uber interested
[06:42] <arko> Oh sweet
[06:42] <arko> Where at?
[06:42] <eroomde> i will
[06:42] <eroomde> newcastle
[06:42] <eroomde> up in the dark north
[06:42] <arko> Mmm beer
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[06:43] <arko> Sheesh
[06:43] <arko> Womder if they call you guys the light south
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[06:43] <eroomde> i need to finish off the pcb to plug into the fpga board
[06:43] <eroomde> they call us the soft south
[06:43] <eroomde> or southern fairies
[06:43] <eroomde> pronounced soothern
[06:44] <eroomde> unless you're in newcastle. you can't write how that's pronounced
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[06:46] <eroomde> this is a geordie accent arko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY4TT3VtR8o
[06:46] <eroomde> geordie = newcastle
[06:50] <arko> Lol
[06:50] <arko> Crazy kids yiu
[06:50] <arko> You
[06:51] <fsphil> guy two doors up from here talks like that
[06:58] <UpuWork> hey KF7FER
[06:58] <UpuWork> still here ?
[06:59] <arko> eroomde: know the Rocket Mavricks?
[06:59] <eroomde> yes
[07:00] <eroomde> tho only as some VCs with big fireworks
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[07:00] <eroomde> which might be a slightly unfair mischaracterisation
[07:00] <arko> Yeah
[07:00] <arko> Just watched a youtube on phonesat tests they did
[07:01] <eroomde> linky?
[07:02] <arko> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSyWDqgNRmo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[07:04] <eroomde> heh, i know a few of the people in this video
[07:05] <arko> :)
[07:05] <arko> I need to get familar with mohave people
[07:05] <arko> Id totally drive out there to help
[07:05] <eroomde> oh and there's oliver de peyer
[07:05] <eroomde> everyone's favourite astrobiologist
[07:07] <arko> No idea who thatbis
[07:07] <arko> That is
[07:08] <eroomde> ukhas notorious
[07:08] <eroomde> the one who uses pc104 boards to turn a relay on
[07:08] <daveake> then the relay controls a valve heater
[07:09] <arko> Heater?
[07:09] <daveake> we're mocking, however he has some strange ideas
[07:09] <daveake> and a valve-powered tracker was one of them
[07:09] <arko> O_o
[07:09] <eroomde> right off to work
[07:10] <arko> Laters~
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[07:22] <vk3yt> /msg NickServ identify testing
[07:22] Nick change: vk3yt -> Guest40453
[07:24] Nick change: Guest40453 -> vt3yt
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[07:35] <fsphil> not a good password that
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[07:38] <jonsowman> lol
[07:39] <UpuWork> yeah should be testing123 at least
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[07:47] <eroomde> back
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[08:00] <vk3yt> Hi admins, could you please approve our flights for this Sunday?
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[08:01] <vk3yt> PSB-2 6008b213e7d8c6aa45ea4ea176f61444
[08:02] <vk3yt> PSB-2A 6008b213e7d8c6aa45ea4ea176f6d38c
[08:02] <HixWork> you may be better on #habhub
[08:02] <vk3yt> Oh thanks HixWork
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[08:26] <forrestv> eroomde, what kind of gps are you using that gives you those raw measurements?
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[08:38] <fsphil> ednav
[08:38] <HixWork> :)
[09:05] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] MONDO launch"
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[09:23] <WILLdude> Morning guys.
[09:27] <WILLdude> How can I start writing the parsing code for this? http://pastie.org/7715174
[09:28] <x-f> that code sets up the uBlox, what do you want to parse there?
[09:29] <WILLdude> The GPGGA sentences, that are being sent.
[09:29] <costyn> WILLdude: you can use TinyGPS library, which will do it for you
[09:29] <WILLdude> I'd like to split the data into lat, long, etc.
[09:30] <WILLdude> costyn: I'd kinda prefer to do it myself.
[09:30] <WILLdude> costyn: It's more educational.
[09:30] <costyn> but i'ts not really 'tiny' and doing it yourself is a great learning experience
[09:30] <WILLdude> But I'll try tinygps I guess.
[09:30] <daveake> DIY
[09:30] <costyn> WILLdude: I'd start by reading up on articles on parsing strings in C
[09:30] <WILLdude> Yeah, good idea dave.
[09:31] <WILLdude> costyn: It doesn't look like there's many.
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[09:32] <costyn> indeed... seems to be mostly forum posts on people asking how to do stuff
[09:33] <costyn> WILLdude: you could try reading through the TinyGPS source code and seeing if you understand whats going on there
[09:33] <craag> WILLdude: Take a look at this: http://playground.arduino.cc/Tutorials/GPS
[09:33] <WILLdude> Eek.
[09:33] <WILLdude> http://playground.arduino.cc/Tutorials/GPS
[09:34] <costyn> craag: that looks useful if not the most readable code
[09:35] <craag> Yeah it's not very readable, but gives a start on how to parse the strings.
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[09:36] <MickMondo> Hi,,, Can someone approve my flight for this Saturday ( 27th ) .. its for ( Mondo Test )
[09:36] <costyn> MickMondo: ask on #hahub
[09:36] <costyn> MickMondo: ask on #hahhub (sorry)
[09:36] <costyn> aargh
[09:36] <costyn> MickMondo: ask on #habhub (sorry)
[09:36] <costyn> :)
[09:37] <MickMondo> OK cheers
[09:37] <MickMondo> It does say to get on here and ask for approval
[09:38] <costyn> WILLdude: http://www.tyleringram.com/blog/using-strchr-to-parse-a-delimited-string-in-c this looks useful as well
[09:38] <MickMondo> All the docs done
[09:38] <costyn> MickMondo: yea but #habhub is less busy (so your request doesn't get lost in the chatter) and all the guys that can approve it are on there
[09:39] <MickMondo> Ah makes sence ..
[09:39] <craag> Still no announcement or anything from the SHARP guys.
[09:39] <WILLdude> costyn: Urgh, that looks complicated.
[09:39] <MickMondo> Ok I'll go back on there... cheers MC
[09:39] <craag> Hopefully we won't have a last-minute freq clash like last time :(
[09:39] <costyn> WILLdude: nobody said it was going to be easy :)
[09:39] <HixWork> if it helps me get shot of TinyGPS it's all good :)
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[09:40] <WILLdude> Hmm.
[09:40] <WILLdude> TinyGPS might be a better option.
[09:41] <costyn> WILLdude: since it generally parses strings which have , separators, it's harder to understand than the other tutoial
[09:41] <WILLdude> It does look really complicated.
[09:41] <costyn> yea with the pointers and stuff.. if you've never dealt with them before it's a bit daunting
[09:42] <WILLdude> Maybe I won't do it now.
[09:42] <costyn> well don't give up already :)
[09:43] <WILLdude> I have a really busy day today, it's my grandma's funeral so I could do without unecessary stress.
[09:45] <Brace> WILLdude: sorry to here that, my Gran died recently and it's pretty sucky
[09:45] <Brace> probably a day to sit back, relax (as best you can), think of your gran and get off the damn PC!
[09:45] <forrestv> some pretty cheap radio modems, i think: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261204814867
[09:46] <craag> WILLdude: Not today then. A good thing I find to do for code I'm trying to understand is print it out, get a pen, walk away from the computer to somewhere else and start writing next to bits of code what it is you think they do.
[09:46] <WILLdude> Well, I don't really mind that much. I think it's probably because if she didn't die, she'd have sufferred a lot more.
[09:46] <craag> If you get stuck, walk away, do something else, and come back to it later.
[09:47] <fsphil> python has no switch()-style statement :(
[09:47] <WILLdude> At least I'm off school :)
[09:47] <Brace> also, even if it's not fussing you that much, I can assure you (that even if they aren't showing it) your parents are pretty gutted at the moment
[09:47] <WILLdude> Kinda, but they have the same view on it as me really.
[09:48] <griffonbot> Received email: MickMondo "[UKHAS] MONDO launch - Sat 27th"
[09:48] <WILLdude> I'm just listening to damn good music.
[09:48] <WILLdude> That was my grandma's way of coping.
[09:49] <WILLdude> Anyway.
[09:50] <WILLdude> Don't think any of the weekend launches are near me.
[09:51] Action: craag whispers WILLdude: There may be a SHARP launch on saturday, possibly landing quite close to you.
[09:52] <WILLdude> Where from?
[09:53] <craag> gloucestershire
[09:53] <WILLdude> Can someone do me a massive favour and mirror uTorrent mor me?
[09:53] <WILLdude> craag: Is there a prediction>
[09:54] <craag> WILLdude: Not that I know of. Gimme a mo and I'll run one now.
[09:55] <fsphil> knowing SHARP, it could end up anywhere :)
[09:55] <craag> Or it could end up at the launch site like it did last time :P
[10:07] <craag> WILLdude: Darn, either the wind has reduced or they've changed the launch parameters. My simulations are landing around Gloucester/Cirencester
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[10:07] <craag> Still should be easily trackable from your qth.
[10:07] <fsphil> this far ahead the predictions can be quite variable
[10:07] <craag> mm, I'll keep an eye on it.
[10:08] <craag> Should really get the hourly set up on this box
[10:08] <craag> WILLdude: http://www.suws.org.uk/predict/#!/uuid=fc88866cba74795801d15e0f48596a5401ad4d78
[10:09] <daveake> They could chase that on a pushbike
[10:10] <Babs> It's good that wind patterns are back to normal
[10:15] <fsphil> slowly
[10:19] <Babs> fsphil: It's......good......that.....wind.....patterns.....are......back.......to......normal
[10:24] <fsphil> better
[10:24] <fsphil> I read that in Shatner's voice
[10:25] <eroomde> reading csv files into number arrays without specificing the delimeter = batman error
[10:26] <griffonbot> Received email: Mike Willis "RE: [UKHAS] MONDO launch - Sat 27th"
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[10:28] <daveake> I'm a doctor not a weatherman
[10:28] <Babs> Forget about Star Trek, TJ Hooker was his greatest achievement
[10:29] <HixWork> CAD server is fubar - I am a very very bored individual
[10:29] <_markh_> I hope this isn't a dumb question, but when building my tracker, is there any good reason why I can't feed my sensor boards 3V directly from the battery rather than using the Arduino pro Mini 3.3v regulated output?
[10:29] <daveake> Battery voltage isn't constant*
[10:29] <daveake> *understatement
[10:30] <_markh_> Sure, but the docs say that the sensor accepts 1.8 - 3.6v
[10:30] <daveake> This would need to apply to the entire circuit
[10:30] <daveake> Which is possible
[10:31] <daveake> You'd need to change the xtal to run the AVR slower
[10:31] <HixWork> isn't it 4MHz below 3v3?
[10:31] <daveake> The radio won't run that low
[10:31] <daveake> believe so
[10:31] <HixWork> and delay doesn't work at 4MHz?
[10:32] <_markh_> I thought the Pro Mini was 8Mhz
[10:32] <daveake> delay is for losers anyway :p
[10:32] <HixWork> heh
[10:32] <HixWork> Pro Mini is 8MHz at 3v3 but below i believe it'll fail
[10:32] <daveake> The 3V mini pro is 8MHz yes, but it won't be getting 3V3 from your battery
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[10:34] <daveake> Battery voltage drops with use of course and temperature. An energizer lithium starts at 1.8V and ends about 0.9V when cold and nearly empty. That's a fair old range. You need your circuit to work across the entire range, so 1.8 to 3.6V for 2 lithums. Doable, but check everything to make sure it will work
[10:35] <_markh_> OK. So I might be better feeding the Pro Mini using 3 x 1.5v and then using the Arduino output to drive the sensors?
[10:35] <daveake> And if idoes all work at 1.8V, why not use a buck converter for more efficiency?
[10:36] <daveake> yes that's what I do
[10:36] <daveake> The NTX2 has its own reg so that can connect to the Arduino 3.3V line or your batteries directly. Either works
[10:37] <_markh_> I'm using an RFM12
[10:37] <daveake> OK
[10:38] <_markh_> I don't think it has a regulator but claims to be happy with 1.8v
[10:38] <daveake> haha. Those things are a bit sensitive to power glitches.
[10:40] <_markh_> I think I'll go with the Arduino powering the devices. I think it can supply 300Ma
[10:40] <_markh_> ma
[10:40] <griffonbot> Received email: Chris Stubbs "[UKHAS] Launch announcement - NSE2 - Sunday 28th April 2013 - 9AM"
[10:41] <x-f> mA
[10:41] <_markh_> Yep - I know .... :)
[10:41] <x-f> i thought the energizers are considered practicaly empty, when they get below 1.5V
[10:42] <daveake> nowhere near
[10:42] <daveake> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf
[10:42] <daveake> And that's at room temp - they drop when cold
[10:43] <daveake> So 1.5 at room temp is about halfway
[10:43] <daveake> for low drain. For higher drain and/or low temp they get below 1.5 quite quickly
[10:44] <x-f> hmm.. thanks, will have to reconsider my power management
[10:45] <gonzo__> anyone know off hand, what the performance of the NTX2 is, below the spec'ed 2.9v?
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[11:40] <cm13g09> craag: was that predict for a SHARP launch?
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[12:03] <WILLdude> Wow.
[12:04] <WILLdude> I'm listening to American Pie on repeat and suddenly my family loves me again.
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[12:15] <craag> cm13g09: yep
[12:15] <craag> May change significantly between now and then though
[12:16] <craag> plus I have no communication from them, so don't know what's happening really.
[12:16] <mattbrejza> did you hear what tha launch issues turned out to be last time?
[12:17] <mattbrejza> (was dodgy ribbon cable connectors between modules)
[12:17] <craag> yeah
[12:18] <craag> because someone had been unplugging them by pulling on the cable rather than the connector
[12:18] <mattbrejza> and the cables didnt have that strain relief clip?
[12:18] <craag> don't think so
[12:19] <craag> They've got so many, it probably wouldn't have made it off the ground with them :P
[12:21] <fsphil> hopefully they learn from their mistakes
[12:21] <craag> They do appear to.
[12:22] <craag> Except they're leaving the announcement til late, again, and it looks like they're going to have a frequency clash, again.
[12:23] <mfa298> from what I've seen of their tweets and website it looks like they're better at announcing they won't be launching than that they might be launching
[12:25] <craag> Yeah they're just waiting until things are definite before announcing. A definite no-launch can happen a week before, a definite go-launch is only the afternoon before.
[12:25] <cm13g09> lol
[12:26] Action: cm13g09 has a roadworks problem....
[12:26] <craag> cm13g09: Car trapped in now?
[12:26] <cm13g09> craag: no....
[12:26] <mfa298> shame they don't notify when they're hoping to launch in advance
[12:26] <cm13g09> small matter of a headache
[12:27] <cm13g09> and the whole house vibrating....
[12:28] <cm13g09> and I need to make some phone calls....
[12:28] <cm13g09> from my old number
[12:28] <craag> mfa298: Yeah they could be a lot more communicative. I hope they've contacted ESRB, just off-list.
[12:29] <mfa298> interesting, looking at the list of notams the only thing I can see in that general area is an air display
[12:29] <craag> :|
[12:30] <craag> Might not be approved til tomorrow.
[12:30] <mfa298> true
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[12:31] <mfa298> air display is on sunday but isn't that far from the path in your prediction
[12:32] <mfa298> FLYPAST BY BATTLE OF BRITAIN MEMORIAL FLIGHT ACFT WI 3NM RADIUS
[12:32] <mfa298> 515827N 0015600W (BROADWAY, WORCESTERSHIRE). OTHER AIRSPACE USERS
[12:32] <mfa298> ARE REQUESTED TO AVOID THIS AREA DURING THE STATED TIMES.
[12:32] <mfa298> 13-04-0069/AS 7
[12:32] <craag> If it's on sunday that should be fine.
[12:32] <craag> Even sharp's interpretation of ISH doesn't stretch that far... (i hope)
[12:33] <cm13g09> lol
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[12:33] <cm13g09> craag: is this SUPPOSED to be Saturday?
[12:33] <craag> cm13g09: afaik yes.
[12:33] <cm13g09> ah right
[12:33] <kokey> launching a lot of picos around farnborough 14-20 July
[12:33] <kokey> I'm sure nothing will go wrong
[12:33] <mfa298> I think last years team went for some sundays when the saturdays hadn't been that successful
[12:34] <cm13g09> kokey: Farnborough Air Show?
[12:34] <cm13g09> (at a guess)
[12:34] <mfa298> although you'de hope that as part of their approval they might get warned about sunday
[12:35] <russss> Farnborough only happens on even-numbered years
[12:35] <russss> it's the Paris air show this year
[12:35] <cm13g09> russss: I couldn't remember
[12:35] <cm13g09> I just wondered what kokey was referring to if anything, or just making a statement
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[13:11] <eroomde_> arko: yo
[13:11] <eroomde_> http://i.imgur.com/nHLgRSj.jpg
[13:11] <eroomde_> green is 1s of data (1000 samples) with PLL tracking, red ellipsoid is the same data but with extended kalman filter tracking
[13:12] <eroomde_> the ellipsoids are 1-standard deviation, i should explain
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[13:16] <fsphil> where you outside to take that data?
[13:16] <Babs> eroomde - what are you tracking/predicting with that data?
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[13:18] <eroomde> Babs: have built a gps receiver
[13:19] <eroomde> fsphil: the antenna was on a black and decker workmate just outside the window of that shed
[13:19] <eroomde> the kalman mean is pretty much bang on
[13:19] <eroomde> to within 50cm or so
[13:19] <Babs> cool! And the ellipsoids represent the mean of radii of positions, that kind of thing?
[13:21] <eroomde> one standard deviation
[13:21] <eroomde> so 65% of all 1ms position estimates fall within that ellipse
[13:21] <eroomde> the bigger ellipse is using conventional techniques (phase locked loops) to track the gps carrier and code phases (the thing you use to decode position)
[13:22] <Babs> Nice. What's the total weight inc. power supply? It would be cool to fly it.
[13:22] <eroomde> and red ellipsoid is using kalman filters - a kind of bayesian/ML appraoch to filtering - to do the same thing
[13:22] <eroomde> and its performance is much much better
[13:22] <eroomde> well atm it's just a radio front end which captures raw gps signals with a fast ADC
[13:22] <eroomde> then the processing is done on my pc
[13:22] <eroomde> in python
[13:24] <Babs> its still probably lighter than babshab
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[13:30] <eroomde> sorry was away
[13:30] <eroomde> so the reason foe doing this is the conventional gps units just do loads of dodgy averaging
[13:30] <eroomde> and only give you 1-10Hz positions
[13:30] <eroomde> and make all sorts of assumptions about your dynamics in the way they do the averaging
[13:30] <eroomde> + cocom limits
[13:30] <eroomde> it's all a bit unsatisfactory
[13:31] <eroomde> so the purpose of this is to make something that will work at 50g and mach 5 and at 50km and so on
[13:34] <eroomde> and the really nice thing is if you do it all yourself you can use inertial sensors to help you improve your position estimate (i.e. knwing your actual acceleration helps you make more sensors of the point cloud being firehosed out of the gps at 1khz)
[13:34] <eroomde> i'm hoping to have something flyable soon
[13:34] <eroomde> might try and squueze the processing onto a beaglebone
[13:34] <Babs> unless they are trying to achieve a compromise between power consumption, price etc for the consumer market
[13:34] <eroomde> oh yes for sure
[13:34] <Babs> You would think the maths side of it would be pretty easy for them to improve on (if there is indeed a better way)
[13:34] <eroomde> this is for rocket s and stuff
[13:35] <eroomde> there is no need to know your position at 1khz for a satnav
[13:35] <eroomde> well, it's quite computational
[13:35] <eroomde> you couldn't do this in a wee arm chip that they usually use in consumer GPS units
[13:36] <eroomde> what i'm quite interested in is just saving all the raw radio adc and inertial sensor samples during, say, a rocket boost phase
[13:36] <eroomde> then processing them afterwards where you can do a really fine (unconstrained by realtime requirements) reconstruction
[13:37] <Babs> aerospace is excellent for that kind of "make it the best it can be approach". i bid for a company once that makes all of the actuators for the A380 by hand.
[13:37] <Babs> a thing the size of a mini doughnut which has a 200 page manual of specs on how to build it
[13:37] <Babs> beautiful things once they are built though
[13:38] <Babs> but quite costly
[13:38] <Babs> even the 4mm of tape used to tape down the end of the copper wire had to be specified and tested
[13:39] <Babs> but thats why airliners don't drop out of the sky much I guess
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[13:42] <eroomde> i suspect they could get away with less
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[13:42] <eroomde> but the machine has to feed itself
[13:43] <eroomde> but yes, this is definitely for research.
[13:44] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "Re: [UKHAS] MONDO launch - Sat 27th"
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[13:48] <eroomde> Babs: I should say the motivating factor for a diy gps is that commercial ones don't work on rockets (acceleration limits) and an amateur solution to rocket tracking is therefore pretty difficult
[13:49] <eroomde> it's a solved problem if you have military money and contacts for military GPS
[13:49] <eroomde> but you end up with your name on lots of lists if you go down that route
[13:51] <nick_> What lists do you get on for providing the wrong people with missile tracking GPS?
[13:51] <nick_> (where `wrong' may be ill defined)
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[13:54] <eroomde> i'm not sure
[13:54] <eroomde> i will try not to
[14:08] <Laurenceb> http://www.tarduino.cc/2013/04/ipad-3-retina-display-adapter-to.html
[14:14] <costyn> Laurenceb: the guy that writes that blog sure has a chip on his shoulder :)
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[14:23] <HixWork> Wow them panels are really bot as expensive as I thought they would be
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[14:38] <Steffanx> costyn you DONT want to know who wrote that post, really you dont
[14:40] <Laurenceb> Steffanx: shall i invite him to this channel?
[14:40] <Steffanx> You can, but .. then you still don't know WHO he is and what is is responsible for.
[14:41] <Laurenceb> the leader of the GNAA
[14:42] <Steffanx> known for the last measure ..
[14:44] <costyn> Laurenceb: lol
[14:45] <costyn> Steffanx: I believe you :)
[14:45] <Steffanx> Good. :)
[14:45] <Laurenceb> http://www.zazzle.co.uk/i_3_gnaa_tee_shirts-235832104581736654
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[15:04] <griffonbot> Received email: Richard "[UKHAS] Re: MONDO launch - Sat 27th"
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[16:54] <eroomde> arko: be awake foo
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[17:07] <arko> I am
[17:08] <eroomde> cool
[17:08] <eroomde> sec
[17:08] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9q3fxkqgsfqd2nw/beforeafter.png
[17:08] <eroomde> green is pll
[17:08] <eroomde> orange is kalman
[17:09] <eroomde> lines are 1-standard-deviation elipses
[17:09] <arko> Woah!!
[17:10] <arko> Nice work man! Im jealous, must be very rewarding :)
[17:10] <eroomde> well, frustrating too
[17:10] <eroomde> need to get the new data gathering board fired up
[17:10] <arko> Not to mention, you probably have some room left to improve
[17:10] <eroomde> oh totally
[17:10] <eroomde> it'll get much better once doing vectored kalman among all the sats
[17:11] <eroomde> and also upping the sample rate will help
[17:11] <arko> Ahh
[17:11] <arko> Then differential gps :P
[17:11] <eroomde> because you're basically trying to identify the time of a rising edge of a pulse sent by the sat, and when sampling at 16.368MHz that's 60ns between samples
[17:12] <eroomde> so you only know it's *somewhere* in that 60ns window
[17:12] <eroomde> which is however many meters at the speed of light
[17:12] <eroomde> 40 or something
[17:12] <arko> Whats the theortical/best case error?
[17:13] <eroomde> 18m even
[17:13] <eroomde> not sure
[17:13] <arko> C code is designed to have a given amount of error right?
[17:13] <cuddykid> damn you raspberry pi - not appearing on network
[17:13] <eroomde> the kalman filter predicts the rising edge to a much finer resolution
[17:13] <arko> Like you cant ever get millimeters
[17:13] <eroomde> but obviously there's measurement noise of up to half that sample time window
[17:13] <eroomde> you can get mm yes
[17:14] <eroomde> with differential
[17:14] <eroomde> but no not without, i suspect
[17:14] <arko> Sure yeah, but not single
[17:14] <eroomde> well, you could...
[17:14] <eroomde> hmm
[17:14] <eroomde> yeah not a single freq receiver
[17:14] <arko> Rly?
[17:14] <arko> Really?*
[17:14] <eroomde> basically trying to reduce the spread varience atm without doing information destorying things like lpf
[17:15] <arko> Why would you lpf?
[17:15] <eroomde> and absolute position is difficult to tell with the ionospheric fudeg factors and google earth imagery not being necessarily the best
[17:15] <eroomde> we have about 6 miles away a hilltop station whose location is very precisely defined
[17:15] <eroomde> so we'll go there and grab datasets when the gathering is sorted
[17:16] <arko> Nice!
[17:16] <eroomde> then we need to fly the damn thing
[17:16] <eroomde> speaking of which, might be at ldrs or balls this year or next
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[17:17] <arko> Ldrs?
[17:17] <arko> Ah crap, brb for a bit
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[17:24] <eroomde> arko: Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships
[17:24] <eroomde> it's tripoli's annual launch festival
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[17:40] <arko> Neat!
[17:41] <eroomde> hoping to built the boosted dart for someone's alt record attemp, which should hit about 50g
[17:41] <eroomde> which would put the gps through its paces
[17:41] <arko> Woah
[17:42] <arko> Wonder if the boards traces will experience doppler shift :p
[17:43] <eroomde> mmm, the red shift will stop the optoisolators from working
[17:45] <eroomde> relativity fail
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[17:56] <WILLdude> Hi guys.
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[18:35] <WILLdude> An ebay feedback message just called me AAA. Duh, I'm a man.
[18:38] <WILLdude> Well I thought it was funny.
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[19:29] <griffonbot> Received email: Geoff Mather "[UKHAS] Re: STRATODEAN Launch 10am 21/04/13 from Coleford, Forest of
[19:29] <griffonbot> Received email: Andrew Myatt "[UKHAS] AURA - 20th April"
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[20:01] <arko> AAA?
[20:05] <cuddykid> got webcam streaming from the pi working - plan is to stream the initial ascent over 3G :)
[20:08] <cuddykid> fsphil: is there anyway to allow ffmpeg and fswebcam access to /dev/video0 at the same time?
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[20:13] <fsphil> not easily
[20:14] <fsphil> you could probably hack ffmpeg to output jpegs at regular intervals
[20:15] <bertrik> maybe you can with gstreamer
[20:19] <fsphil> yea that would probably manage it, though could be a bit heavy for the Pi
[20:20] <cuddykid> other way around would be to keep pinging google and soon as it stops responding - no more signal - close down ffmpeg and startup the ssdv stuff
[20:20] <cuddykid> and vice versa on the descent
[20:21] <fsphil> that's probably safer
[20:21] <SpeedEvil> there is a webcam splitter tool
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[20:21] <SpeedEvil> I forget the name
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[21:44] <chrisstubbs> Evening
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[21:50] <chrisstubbs> would adding a fin to a payload stop it from spinning so much?
[21:50] <chrisstubbs> or would the wind make it spin more?
[21:51] <lz1dev> have considered adding something on the line before the payload
[21:52] <lz1dev> that would act like a bearing
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[21:54] <chrisstubbs> like the bearing thing on a fishing line?
[21:54] <chrisstubbs> cant think of the name
[21:57] <Upu> Daveake has some
[21:57] <Upu> I cna't remember the name either
[21:57] <chrisstubbs> My dad has some, just no idea what they are called haha
[21:58] <chrisstubbs> do they work well?
[21:58] <Upu> hard to tell really
[21:58] <Upu> most payloads have some sort of spin
[21:59] <eroomde> if you get two payloads with the same spin then launch them separately, they can communicate betwen each other faster than the speed of light
[21:59] <Babs> lz1dev http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/8589745881/in/set-72157632733154985
[22:00] <Dan-K2VOL> ha
[22:00] <Upu> fishing line swivel
[22:00] <chrisstubbs> yeah thats the one
[22:00] <Babs> eroomde - entanglement of the quantum rather than the string kind
[22:00] <Upu> or be super clever like Babs
[22:00] <Dan-K2VOL> Adding a long horizontal boom has been very effective way of reducing rotation rate
[22:00] <Babs> Upu - it hasn't flown yet
[22:00] <chrisstubbs> that think does look awesome
[22:00] <chrisstubbs> *thing
[22:01] <Babs> ground clever does not necessarily equal airborne clever
[22:01] <Upu> http://www.anglingactive.co.uk/esp-hi-performance-carp-swivels.html?gclid=CKu0hcHo5rYCFZQ92wodGjkAmw
[22:01] <Upu> absolutely :)
[22:01] <eroomde> i have had some deep thought about string theory when untangling payloads
[22:01] <lz1dev> Babs: argh!
[22:01] <lz1dev> you beat me to it
[22:02] <chrisstubbs> looks like im going to be building the payload the day before launch :P this can only go well
[22:02] <chrisstubbs> well the box is done, and CHDK now works so i supposed its pretty much there
[22:02] <Babs> I had a big panic a couple of weeks ago that the thing would be that efficient at eliminating rotation that I might end up with 1,203 photos pointing directly at the sun
[22:02] <eroomde> launch time ISH is when you think about a software feature freeze
[22:03] <Babs> Actually when you put it under load it isn't as friction-minimising as the video
[22:03] <Babs> although still not bad
[22:03] <lz1dev> Upu: i've been wondering, is there a phrase for habers to wish luck, like break a leg
[22:04] <eroomde> land in a tree
[22:04] <eroomde> break an airliner
[22:04] <eroomde> cause a pileup
[22:04] <cuddykid> smash someones roof
[22:05] <Babs> someone capturing a failed parachute capsule going through a load of greenhouses would garner maximum hab points
[22:05] <Upu> burst early
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[22:06] <Upu> night
[22:06] <lz1dev> gn
[22:06] <Babs> btw all - the guy at balloonhelium.co.uk was really rude and off with me on the phone today
[22:06] <Babs> I thought
[22:06] <chrisstubbs> arse, prediction has moved to completley the opposite direction
[22:07] <cuddykid> I'm not using them again after they didn't refund a 1/2 empty cylinder
[22:07] <Babs> no one talks at me with that voice
[22:07] <eroomde> what did he say?
[22:07] <Babs> *does comedy drum thing*
[22:07] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid, wtf?
[22:07] <cuddykid> usually, they're fine with me on the phone - it's always this one woman
[22:07] <chrisstubbs> yeah she sounds nice
[22:07] <cuddykid> in fact, surprised you said there's a man, I thought it was just that woman running the callcenter by herself :P
[22:08] <staylo> it's always a man, the helium levels are higher than normal sometimes
[22:09] <Babs> I thought I'd finish the evening with a helium joke noonetalkstomeinthathighpitchedvoice, and instead I've started up a whole other thread
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[22:09] <cuddykid> yes, we're a bit slow on here tonight
[22:09] <Babs> Laurenceb, you've just missed a corking helium related joke #notreally
[22:09] <eroomde> i been computering all day
[22:10] <eroomde> had to stay in the office too as the site was on lockdown as the other company that has test bays was testing some nasties
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> ive been failing all day
[22:10] <eroomde> and i was a bit restless
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> hydrazine?
[22:10] <eroomde> but alas they have their sirens and procedures
[22:10] <eroomde> MON and hydrazine yup
[22:10] <Dan-K2VOL> I found video of the Texas drone law hearing: http://www.house.state.tx.us/video-audio/committee-broadcasts/committee-archives/player/?session=83&committee=220&ram=13032610220
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> niceee
[22:11] <Dan-K2VOL> the drone bill 912 starts at 6:46
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> <Dan-K2VOL>: tl;dr
[22:11] <eroomde> the mon is the unpleasant bit
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> conclusion?
[22:11] <eroomde> nasty brown clouds
[22:11] <Dan-K2VOL> still watching
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> lol
[22:12] Action: Laurenceb_ is trying to do spectroscopy in scattering materials
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> this is not fun
[22:12] <Dan-K2VOL> Hilariously the justification of the bill starts with the admission that the person proposing the bill knows very little about technology
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> mainly as theoretical basis for how to do it is a massive mess
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> as is my matlab code
[22:13] Action: Laurenceb_ head->table
[22:14] <eroomde> i spent three hours not realisng i already knew how to do something
[22:14] <eroomde> writing crap code that become just one line when i remembered i already knew
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[22:15] <eroomde> and stupid bugs like initialisng a new array with new = zeros(old.size) instead of zeros(old.shape)
[22:15] <eroomde> and thinking the resultant bug was something else
[22:15] <eroomde> and and and
[22:15] <eroomde> very slow brain day
[22:16] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid, so what was the deal with balloonhelium?
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> epic disagreements my PhD supervisor :-/
[22:16] <Babs> In researching my next project I popped "Sky anchor" into google and it came up with loads of pictures of Kay Burley (and that isn't a joke)
[22:16] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: they tried getting out of it using various ts&cs
[22:16] <eroomde> it's a dangerous hobby
[22:17] <eroomde> '12 inch rocket tubes' was a memorable eye-opener
[22:17] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: told them - wasn't good enough, ordered many times from them, shouldn't treat customers like this
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> he is not convinced by my work
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> :-/
[22:17] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: then they 'checked' with the local BOC depot and said it was a full cylinder.. I beg to differ!
[22:18] <chrisstubbs> they seem to make a rubbish job of filling them, doen one launch already and mine still weighs more than the advertised weight
[22:18] <Babs> eroomde - I see what you mean. *undertakes not to connect work laptop to work internet for a while*
[22:19] <Babs> (In all seriousness) I got my last cylinders from balloonhelium, are they still the best place to go?
[22:19] <Babs> notwithstanding the silly voice etc. etc.
[22:19] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid, jokes on them when Helium runs out, or costs so much nobody uses it anymore
[22:19] <Laurenceb_> people are still using helium?
[22:19] <Laurenceb_> thought everyone had moved to H2
[22:19] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: yeah
[22:20] <eroomde> we always used boc but circumstances were different at a uni i guess. but if you can cope with a bit more upfront paperwork, it might be worth it
[22:20] <eroomde> BOC or Air Products
[22:20] <cuddykid> I'm in the process of moving to H2 now - net launch will be H2
[22:20] <eroomde> i think they are easier on bottle rental
[22:20] <Babs> cool. thanks.
[22:21] <cuddykid> BOC used to be about £20 more than balloon helium - but I don't think there's much in it now
[22:21] <chrisstubbs> I better go, Night!
[22:21] <Babs> eroomde - once you've got your self made GPS working, you should be separating water to generate your hydrogen to become fully self sufficent
[22:21] <eroomde> it part of the master plan
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[22:22] <eroomde> actually i was thinking methanse as the performance is also good but the density is much higher
[22:22] <eroomde> methane*
[22:22] <eroomde> i'll have to find a way to make it
[22:23] <Babs> That would be awesome. Connect collecting bottles up to a herd of cows the night before, go back the next morning and launch.
[22:25] <eroomde> did some methane/o2 firings earlier this year
[22:25] <eroomde> they were pretty
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[22:26] <bambi> hello anyone here?
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> cows also emit hudrogen
[22:27] <Babs> From wikipedia: "It has the advantage of not leaking through balloon walls as rapidly as the small-moleculed hydrogen and helium". Anyways, I have an 0800 meeting tomorrow so am out of here. Night y'all
[22:29] <eroomde> nn
[22:29] <eroomde> me too
[22:29] <eroomde> leaving rather than meeting
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[22:33] <arko> blah long day is long
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[00:00] --- Fri Apr 26 2013