highaltitude.log.20130330

[00:00] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:00] <Lunar_Lander> I would have guessed New Zealand from your nick
[00:00] <Lunar_Lander> but you are not the guy who did a FPV glider flight?
[00:03] <kiwi_> My nick is a diversion.. a bit like yours maybe ;)
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[00:04] <kiwi_> Ah no that's another Swede
[00:04] <kiwi_> I think he's mostly in the US now
[00:07] Nick change: MichaelC -> MichaelC|Sleep
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[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> kiwi_, that is cool
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> maybe you saw my balloon on March 5
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> I called it OERNEN-II
[00:25] <kiwi_> Hehe
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> after S.A. Andrée''s balloon
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[00:26] <kiwi_> There was a Andree Memorial hot air balloon meet i February. I was there.
[00:26] <kiwi_> Did your balloon pass Sweden?
[00:27] <Lunar_Lander> no, it was just a short range here in germany
[00:27] <Lunar_Lander> Andree had great ideas
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[00:27] <kiwi_> I'm not too familiar with that I'm afraid
[00:27] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[00:28] <Lunar_Lander> ah I think the main problem was that the Örnen leaked too much
[00:28] <Lunar_Lander> and that he didn't fix that up enough
[00:28] <kiwi_> He wanted to fly a balloon to the north pole, yes?
[00:28] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:30] <kiwi_> It's not the first idea for a excusion that springs to mind
[00:31] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[00:32] <kiwi_> "excursion"
[00:32] <kiwi_> I mean, who would have thought of doing such a thing
[00:32] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:32] <Lunar_Lander> yeah there were two or three proposals in the 19th century
[00:32] <Lunar_Lander> but far before him
[00:32] <Lunar_Lander> and too big
[00:33] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. one was like a three balloon cluster
[00:33] <Lunar_Lander> IIRC each with a crewmember
[00:33] <Lunar_Lander> great balloon ideas from Scandinavia :)
[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> Andree doing the polar balloon
[00:34] <kiwi_> You gotta admire the spirit
[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> and Väisälä building the Finnish Radiosonde
[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[00:34] <kiwi_> And then me doing pico radiosondes ;)
[00:35] <Lunar_Lander> yea :) and that other guy with his glider :)
[00:35] <Lunar_Lander> and we had a HAB in Denmark
[00:35] <Lunar_Lander> hmmmm
[00:36] Action: Lunar_Lander looks to norway and iceland
[00:36] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[00:36] <kiwi_> I don't know any Danish HAB, but they do have a spacecraft
[00:36] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[00:36] <Lunar_Lander> the Danish HAB was done by Trevor and Brian
[00:36] <Lunar_Lander> OZ1SKY
[00:36] <Lunar_Lander> he hasn't been on here for a week
[00:36] <Lunar_Lander> hope he comes back soon
[00:37] <chrisstubbs> his callsign is fantastic
[00:37] <chrisstubbs> anyway im off, night!
[00:38] <kiwi_> Do you have any HAB skills that could compete with Vaisala? I'd like to bring them down...
[00:38] <Lunar_Lander> xD no sorry
[00:38] <Lunar_Lander> night chrisstubbs
[00:38] <kiwi_> night
[00:38] <Lunar_Lander> but I would love to make a better temperature sensor than the DS18B20
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[00:39] <kiwi_> Better as in can do higher altitudes?
[00:39] <Lunar_Lander> lower thermal mass, lower the lag of it
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[00:40] <kiwi_> I've looked into the problem myself. I use a small thermistor.
[00:41] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:42] <kiwi_> Do you have any info on the response time of DS18B20? It seems very popular but has big mass as you say
[00:42] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:43] <Lunar_Lander> not really, sorry
[00:43] <Lunar_Lander> we once did a test which was a bit poor I think
[00:43] <Lunar_Lander> we had it in a wather bath which was stirred
[00:43] <Lunar_Lander> and the water was at about 0°C and we heated it to 50°C
[00:44] <Lunar_Lander> and we had like the same program running as on the balloon, so we had to wait for the 50 baud strings to come over the radio, then read the reference thermometer and then write down the temperature from the string
[00:44] <Lunar_Lander> I think the DS18B20 always was about 1°C colder than the reference
[00:44] <kiwi_> Ok not terribly effective
[00:45] <kiwi_> Hard to compare air with water
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> thermocouple can be lots lots faster
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> as in sub second
[00:46] <kiwi_> Really? Surely they have mass too?
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> you can make them with .05mm wire
[00:47] <kiwi_> Sounds perfect, do you have a link where I can get that?
[00:56] <kiwi_> I'm off, catch you later
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[01:05] <Lunar_Lander> SpeedEvil, guess you need to have some sort of circuit to get the data out of those?
[01:09] Nick change: keithp` -> keithp
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[03:43] <Snow_White> Evening everyone
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[04:02] <arko> Weeeee
[04:02] <arko> http://www.imgur.com/giCmysk.jpeg
[04:03] <arko> Best part of the desert is owning property and lighting off fireworks
[04:10] <eroomde> why is i awake
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[04:14] <arko> Haha what time is it there?
[04:34] <eroomde> 4:14
[04:34] <eroomde> 4:34*
[04:34] <eroomde> gonna try and sleep now
[04:40] <arko> good luck
[04:41] <eroomde> i think it was dominoes + wine
[04:41] <eroomde> dryed the shit out of me
[04:41] <eroomde> woke up at 2.30 shrizzled and gasping for water
[04:41] <eroomde> shrivvled*
[04:41] <eroomde> right, bed
[04:41] <eroomde> gluck arko
[04:44] <arko> thanks dude
[04:44] <arko> setup tent, gonna sleep soon
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[08:11] <Willdude123> When I bui
[08:12] <Willdude123> When I build a tracker with a 1/4 wave antenna, would it actually increase the range of the DL network?
[08:19] Action: Ciemon wonders what the DL network is?
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[08:28] <Upu> distributed listener
[08:28] <Upu> range probably not coverage absolutely
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[08:29] <ibanezmatt13> Good Morning :)
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[08:32] <ibanezmatt13> I have made a dummy program which imitates the reading of a GPS module and the writing to a radio transmitter by reading a text file, parsing it and writing to a different one. https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5275874 however, the last function doesn't work because i need to make the variables global
[08:32] <ibanezmatt13> how do i make the variables global to both functions?
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[08:36] <ibanezmatt13> https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5275874
[08:36] <Ciemon> Thanks Upu. Willdude123 the more Effective Radiated Power (ERP) you can get out of a payload combined with more height will help the signals to go farther.
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[08:40] <ibanezmatt13> how do you make variables known to more than one function in python?
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[08:43] <Willdude123> ibanezmatt13: Try using one as a param to go into the other.
[08:43] <Willdude123> Well, as a function input.
[08:43] <ibanezmatt13> i've done it. I've defined them as globals in the first function which seems to have carried them over to the next
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> In fact, that's a better way of doing it, I'll use a function input
[08:44] <Willdude123> Yeah.
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> so do i just do, send_gps(lat, lon, alt, lock):
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> do they still need to be globals?
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[08:47] <ibanezmatt13> i did, send_gps(lat, lon, alt, lock): and it said that it takes 4 arguments, none given?
[08:50] <ibanezmatt13> https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5275874 the send gps part didn't work
[08:50] <ibanezmatt13> it said, send_gps takes 4 arguments, 0 given
[08:53] <fsphil> the error is correct :)
[08:53] <fsphil> think about it
[08:54] <fsphil> you've declared the function with 4 arguments. but you're calling it with none
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[08:58] <ibanezmatt13> what do you mean?
[08:58] <ibanezmatt13> oh i see!
[08:58] <ibanezmatt13> thanks
[08:59] <fsphil> but yea, try to avoid globals
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[09:01] <ibanezmatt13> it only works if I use globals. Not sure how else i should do it https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5275874
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[09:02] <daveake> If you gogle for "why global variables are bad" you'll get over 3 million hits
[09:03] <ibanezmatt13> ok, is there an alternative method?
[09:03] <fsphil> you've already done it
[09:03] <fsphil> do it again :)
[09:03] <fsphil> a function can return values
[09:04] <ibanezmatt13> what shall i do again?
[09:04] <fsphil> python has a neat trick for returning multiple values
[09:05] <ibanezmatt13> really? what's it called
[09:05] <fsphil> I thought you where passing values in, but for this you need to pass them out
[09:05] <ibanezmatt13> well i need to pass them into the last function but then i need to pass them out yeah
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[09:06] <fsphil> hmmm that's not how I did it
[09:06] <fsphil> I've lost that link
[09:07] <ibanezmatt13> :\
[09:07] <fsphil> return first_name, last_name
[09:07] <fsphil> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/423710/return-more-than-one-value-from-a-function-in-python
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[09:10] <WB8ELK> Can someone activate a flight for SpaceNear for me today? - UAH Balloonsat WB8ELK
[09:10] <ibanezmatt13> thanks for that link fsphil. I'll take a look and see if I can sort it. Thanks :)
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[09:33] <Spoz> only got a minute but our launch today did not go well :(
[09:33] <Spoz> drove 3 hours out there only to lose the balloon and the helium
[09:33] <Spoz> gust of wind caught it at one point and put a small hole in the neck
[09:34] <Spoz> and we couldnt let it float so had to try to tie above the hole, and in doing so burst the balloon.... so disappointing
[09:34] <daveake> ouch :(
[09:34] <number10> thats a shame
[09:34] <Spoz> yeah, everything else worked perfectly
[09:34] <Spoz> the streaming video was solid and we even had internet to update the tracker
[09:35] <Spoz> pretty heartbroken right now :(
[09:35] <daveake> Ah well only one thing to do
[09:35] <Spoz> yep
[09:35] <Spoz> Its all ready to go, just need another balloon, more helium and some more fuel for the car
[09:35] <daveake> I launched a Pico straight into a tree. After 30 minutes of internally sobbing I knew the only solution was to make another one
[09:35] <Spoz> hehe
[09:36] <Spoz> did you drive 700km to do it?
[09:36] <Spoz> :P
[09:36] <daveake> Walked 200m :)
[09:36] <Spoz> hehe
[09:36] <Spoz> you got off easy :p
[09:36] <daveake> yup
[09:36] <daveake> Next time take spare balloon and more gas?
[09:36] <Spoz> yeah
[09:37] <number10> well it wasnt that easy for him... he had to suffer a few tree jokes from some wicked people here
[09:37] <daveake> I have a rule which is "at least 2 of everything"
[09:37] <Spoz> haha
[09:37] <Spoz> anyway I gotta go
[09:37] <Spoz> thought Id let you know in case you were watching the tracker wondering what we were up t
[09:37] <Spoz> to
[09:37] <daveake> yeah those kept me motivated as I built another tracker :)
[09:37] <Spoz> time to go drown my sorrows with beer and chinese food - seeya later
[09:38] <daveake> bb
[09:40] <Morseman> Better luck next time Spoz
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[09:42] <anerDev> hey hey guys !
[09:45] <Morseman> Any launches planned for this weekend in UK?
[09:46] <number10> dont think so
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[09:51] <Darkside> hey UK people
[09:51] <Darkside> dr who starts tonight your time, right?
[09:51] <anerDev> guys, you think that this is good camera for record http://dx.com/p/ultra-thin-card-style-rechargeable-2mp-digital-video-camera-camcorder-with-tf-slot-white-106628
[09:52] <fsphil> Darkside: yep
[09:52] <daveake> In 8 hours
[09:52] <daveake> 8.5 maybe
[09:52] <fsphil> don't tell me you've already seen it? :)
[09:52] <Darkside> no
[09:52] <Darkside> it wont be on until tomorrow night here
[09:53] <Darkside> though ill download it tomorrow morning
[09:53] <fsphil> ah
[09:54] <anerDev> guys !
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[10:09] <costyn> anerDev: might work might not... batteries could fail because of cold
[10:09] <anerDev> :/
[10:09] <anerDev> and what's the camera can I use ??
[10:09] <Darkside> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2013-03-30_Whyalla-Adelaide/index.html - Typical south-australian countryside
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[10:10] <costyn> anerDev: do you want video or photos?
[10:10] <fsphil> random dead animals on fences normal?
[10:10] <anerDev> video !
[10:10] <Darkside> fsphil: foxes
[10:10] <Darkside> feral foxes
[10:11] <costyn> anerDev: not sure, most people want photos. But I flew a gopro on my last flight, but that is expensive. You will have to try. if you aren't sure if they will work/keep working, use 2 video cameras
[10:12] <anerDev> uhmm now I buy and I test in the "cold box"
[10:12] <anerDev> this is nice because the weight is 29 g !
[10:12] <anerDev> and have 2 MP of resolution
[10:13] <anerDev> sorry 720 x 480
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[10:13] <anerDev> and another question, if I buy a 1200 g helium baloon, what's the raccomandation payload weight ?
[10:14] <anerDev> for example 1200 g - >600 g max ? optimal
[10:15] <costyn> anerDev: you can play with the variables here http://habhub.org/calc/
[10:15] <costyn> anerDev: less weight is better
[10:15] <daveake> Recommended is "as light as possible" :).
[10:15] <costyn> anerDev: less weight means you reach a higher altitude
[10:15] <anerDev> thnak u guys !
[10:15] <daveake> But you can certainly fly 1kg to a decent altitude with that
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[10:17] <anerDev> perfect! and the cirguit can I put in a polystyrene box ?
[10:17] <costyn> yes
[10:18] <anerDev> thank u !
[10:18] <costyn> anerDev: I made my own box: http://imgur.com/a/8JY4w#2 this is XPS it's also a form of polystyrern
[10:18] <anerDev> what's XPS ?
[10:18] <anerDev> ahh ok ok I remember !!
[10:19] <anerDev> and where can I buy ballon and parachute ?
[10:19] <costyn> anerDev: http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[10:20] <costyn> anerDev: xps = extruded poly styrene
[10:20] <anerDev> Hwoyee 1200g there isn't !!!
[10:21] <costyn> anerDev: you can mail Steve to ask when he expects it to be in stock again
[10:22] <costyn> anerDev: ah it says it's back in stock in May
[10:22] <anerDev> is a problem ://
[10:22] <anerDev> but wha't components used in your payload ?
[10:22] <costyn> anerDev: I would recommend using a hwoyee 1000
[10:22] <anerDev> gps and ?
[10:23] <anerDev> ook
[10:23] <anerDev> and for the parachute 2ft or 3ft ??
[10:23] <costyn> gps, temperature, and 2 camera's... the go pro isn't in this picture
[10:23] <costyn> not sure about parachute sizing... dpeends on weight of your payload
[10:24] <anerDev> http://imgur.com/a/8JY4w#79
[10:24] <anerDev> uahuahhuauha epic !!
[10:24] <anerDev> I'm using
[10:24] <anerDev> Arduino mega, gps/gsm shield, sd shield, connecotr shield
[10:24] <number10> anerDev: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:parachute_sizing_chart
[10:24] <anerDev> sensor shield, allarm home build shield
[10:24] <anerDev> ! is very big !
[10:25] <anerDev> thank u number10
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[10:26] <costyn> anerDev: what's the weight? 1200 grams?
[10:26] <anerDev> no no
[10:27] <anerDev> for now, without battery
[10:27] <anerDev> 300 g
[10:27] <costyn> that's very light still
[10:27] <anerDev> one moment
[10:27] <costyn> so maybe with total 500g you can still reach 30KM with 1000g hwoyee
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[10:32] <costyn> anerDev: my box there was already 450g or so
[10:33] <anerDev> i send you a photo
[10:33] <costyn> anerDev: you can upload it to imgur.com and put the link here
[10:34] <anerDev> yes
[10:39] <anerDev> this is the circuit
[10:39] <anerDev> http://imgur.com/42gRpZW
[10:39] <anerDev> http://imgur.com/8fEMXPg
[10:40] <anerDev> and this is the circuit in the plastic box, for the test http://imgur.com/8fEMXPg
[10:40] <costyn> that's a lotta shields! :)
[10:40] <anerDev> the total weight is 620 g
[10:40] <costyn> with batteries?
[10:40] <daveake> wow
[10:40] <anerDev> but the plastig box weight is
[10:40] <anerDev> 150-200g !
[10:41] <daveake> And I thought my Pi payload was a bit OTT
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[10:42] <costyn> this is american style :)
[10:42] <daveake> I kinda doubt it'd pass the "stair test"
[10:43] <anerDev> I think yes ! daveake
[10:43] <anerDev> but tomorrow I will put this on an airplane
[10:43] <anerDev> and the how the circuit work
[10:43] <anerDev> no, there isn't the battery !
[10:44] <anerDev> all circuit need 12 V and the current
[10:44] <anerDev> that absorb is 200 mA
[10:44] <daveake> 12V? I guess I should be surprised
[10:44] <anerDev> 12 V need the gps/gsm shield
[10:46] <mfa298> that also looks like a fairly long bit of random wire going from the nxt2 to the bnc socket
[10:47] <daveake> omigod didn't spot that
[10:47] <daveake> I thought I'd seen everything in the 1st pic
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[10:48] <mfa298> i had to look at both pics to work out what it was
[10:48] <fsphil> wait, what?
[10:48] <anerDev> daveake I change the cable from the ntx2 to bnc
[10:48] <anerDev> I put 50Ohm impedence cable RJ58
[10:48] <daveake> There is no "BNC" cable
[10:48] <daveake> Yes that's ok
[10:48] <anerDev> lamda 1/4
[10:49] <daveake> Or RG174 which is a lot thinner and is what I use inside payloads
[10:49] <anerDev> there is bnc connecotr
[10:49] <daveake> Yes BNC is a connector not a cable
[10:49] <anerDev> the shop where I buy haven't for now rg174
[10:49] <daveake> Well it would save some wait but obviously that's not a priority :)
[10:49] <daveake> weight
[10:49] <anerDev> the shield with the 2 ne555 create a acustic beep
[10:50] <anerDev> yes !
[10:50] <anerDev> but I'm making a good work ?
[10:50] <daveake> For a beep you can get a piezo buzzer with everything built in - just apply DC
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[10:51] <mfa298> I'm not sure that cutting the cable to a 1/4 wave is necessary (and I'm trying to work out if it might cause issues)
[10:52] <fsphil> all those boards look very fragile
[10:52] <anerDev> my teacher tell me this !
[10:52] <anerDev> fsphil O.0
[10:52] <anerDev> why ??
[10:53] <fsphil> they might not be. just make sure they can't come apart during flight
[10:53] <daveake> anerDev flights can be violent - they spin after the balloon bursts and they can hit the ground fairly hard. Your tracker as it stands is going to fall apart
[10:54] <daveake> Maybe use some cable ties or, better, put it in a very tight fitting box
[10:55] <anerDev> this is my idea, on emoment i draw
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[11:00] <anerDev> http://imgur.com/gallery/JtFzJ9C
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[11:02] <anerDev> daveake fsphil watch ?
[11:04] <fsphil> you probably want the gps on top
[11:04] <fsphil> brb
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[11:05] <anerDev> good idea !
[11:05] <anerDev> but I'm working good ?
[11:06] <anerDev> the shield and other parts ? Because this is my first time !
[11:06] <daveake> I wouldn't out the camera near the aerial
[11:06] <anerDev> first balloon
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[11:06] <anerDev> sideways ?
[11:07] <daveake> You don't want any metal between the aerial and the ground
[11:07] <daveake> It'll affect the signal
[11:08] <anerDev> I don't undestand this the aerial and the ground
[11:08] <anerDev> ! :7
[11:08] <daveake> On the WASP flight during the week I added a small tracker as a backup, and the only place was near the camera. The signal dropped out for some listeners as the payload rotated. It still worked but wasn't ideal.
[11:08] <daveake> The aerial needs a clear sight of the listeners on the ground
[11:09] <daveake> Also (and I'm not an expert on this bit) any large pieces of metal (like a camera) near the aerial will detune it.
[11:09] <daveake> You may have noticed that everyone puts their aerials below the payload box, in free air.
[11:09] <daveake> As for the shield arrangement? No, I wouldn't do it like that. Too much chance of it breaking.
[11:10] <daveake> Anyway, off out, seeya later
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[11:10] <anerDev> ahhhh ok ok !!
[11:10] <anerDev> I will put the camera in the side and not in the bottom
[11:10] <anerDev> bye bye daveake
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[11:15] <jcoxon> can i clear the tracker?
[11:18] <chrisstubbs> you can clear cheapo, that was my testing yesterday :)
[11:18] <Upu> sure jcoxon
[11:18] <Upu> needs setting up for Arko
[11:19] <kiwi_> Hi chris
[11:21] <chrisstubbs> morning, just
[11:22] <kiwi_> The tracker works fine now?
[11:24] <chrisstubbs> ugh, snowing again!
[11:25] <chrisstubbs> my tracker? or spacenear.us?
[11:26] <x-f> yeah, snowing again :/
[11:26] <kiwi_> chrisstubbs: yes you were testing your tracker, no?
[11:27] <chrisstubbs> ah yeah its working perfect now :) http://chris-stubbs.co.uk/wp/?p=177
[11:29] <kiwi_> that's swell
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[11:29] <fsphil> etching is a lot of hassle
[11:31] <kiwi_> I just order PCBs from CHina
[11:31] <fsphil> though I guess with practice it can be done quickly and easily
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[11:31] Nick change: cuddykid_ -> cuddykid
[11:32] <chrisstubbs> fsphil, yeah it can be fustrating
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[11:33] <chrisstubbs> but the blank boards are 36p each
[11:33] <fsphil> yea definitly cheaper
[11:34] <fsphil> unless like me you make lots of mistakes :)
[11:34] <chrisstubbs> i quite enjoy etching them, but i think pro boards would be a lot better for SMD
[11:34] <S_Mark> Is it common to be inundated with phone calls once you have your NOTAM? I have all sorts of people ringing, one from the local airfield which is fair enough, but had one guy trying to take our launch location because theirs always land in the sea!?
[11:34] <fsphil> S_Mark: from pilots yea
[11:34] <fsphil> but that last one is a bit odd
[11:35] <fsphil> just tell them to file for a notam further inland
[11:35] <fsphil> and use the predictor :)
[11:35] <S_Mark> Yeah said that to him, they should move lol
[11:36] <fsphil> at least they know to get a notam
[11:36] <fsphil> I actually had no calls this time for my notam
[11:36] <fsphil> it ends tomorrow
[11:37] <S_Mark> Is there a website that lists notams - with their dates. I can only find ones that have the notams but no dates
[11:38] <fsphil> http://notaminfo.com/nationalmap
[11:38] <S_Mark> Ah great thanks
[11:38] <fsphil> clicking on one should show the dates
[11:38] <fsphil> I made sure to add a note to mine saying weekend only
[11:39] <fsphil> saves getting calls during the week when there was no chance of me launching
[11:39] <fsphil> central england is covered in them
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[11:43] <kiwi_> I don't see why it's necessary to write airspace info in all caps.
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[12:24] <S_Mark> Is anyone able to delete payload documents from genpayload on habitat?
[12:24] <S_Mark> Or is there a way to do it yourself?
[12:24] <jonsowman> there's no need S_Mark
[12:24] <jonsowman> just make another one and habitat will use the newer
[12:25] <S_Mark> OK, just thought about doing a bit of tidying from the previous tests, no worries, will make a new one soon.
[12:26] <jonsowman> nah it's fine :)
[12:26] <jonsowman> just leave them all there, it'll cope
[12:27] <jonsowman> there's already nearly 600,000 docs in the database, a few more isn't gonna change much ;)
[12:27] <cuddykid> there's quite a lot of "free balloon ascent" notams
[12:28] <cuddykid> counted 5 so far (incl cam ones)
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[12:28] <cuddykid> *6
[12:29] <S_Mark> I have one, the start of our window is this weekend, but not launching yet.
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[12:33] <bubbu> hey guys, does anyone recommend a good GPS module, microcontroller and radio to put in the payload?
[12:33] <bubbu> easy to set up for beginners?
[12:33] <jonsowman> bubbu: arduinos are the most common by far
[12:34] <jonsowman> and are great for beginners
[12:34] <jonsowman> but also evry capable for when you want to do more complex things
[12:34] <jonsowman> *very
[12:34] <jonsowman> as for GPS and radio, the uBlox 6s are widely used, as are the NTX2 radios, both of which are supplied by our friendly Upu at http://ava.upuaut.net/store/
[12:35] <jonsowman> arduino, ntx2 and ublox6 is a very 'standard' payload so there are lots of code examples, and many people on here who can help you
[12:36] <bubbu> Is there a resource that explains the set up for beginners?
[12:37] <jonsowman> have a look through http://ukhas.org.uk/frontpage:guides#electronics
[12:43] <bubbu> is a microprocessor a flight computer?
[12:43] <bubbu> are they the same thing depending on the type of microprocessor?
[12:44] <jonsowman> a flight computer is a system, often built around a microprocessor, that carries out all the flight functionality
[12:44] <jonsowman> the microprocessor is technically just the IC itself
[12:44] <bubbu> IC?
[12:44] <jonsowman> the physical chip
[12:44] <jonsowman> (integrated circuit)
[12:44] <bubbu> gotcha
[12:45] <bubbu> This isn't as simple as plug GPS module to microprocessor, plug microprocessor to radio is it?
[12:45] <jonsowman> there is also the software to write
[12:45] <bubbu> ah.. please explain
[12:45] <jonsowman> the microprocessor needs to be configured to do what you want, so you write a program and load it in
[12:46] <jonsowman> and that program tells the microprocessor what to do
[12:46] <bubbu> okay!
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[12:46] <bubbu> and all three - radio, microprocessor and GPS module connected to one power source?
[12:46] <jonsowman> so in the simple case, that program roughly amounts to * get data from gps, * format data into a suitable format, * send data to the radio
[12:46] <jonsowman> typically yes, everything can be connected to one power source
[12:47] <jonsowman> unless you have a specific reason not to do so
[12:47] <bubbu> okay - I am meeting with a local radio club on Tuesday with their executive committee. I am asking them to help us with tracking as my group and I are very. What kinds of specific things should I be asking them to do?
[12:47] <bubbu> very new*
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[12:48] <jonsowman> bubbu: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[12:48] <jonsowman> is a rough outline of how to track balloons on the 70cm ISM band transmitting RTTY
[12:50] <jonsowman> there is a particular format we use for telemetry, which if you use it, will allow you make use of our distributed tracking system
[12:50] <jonsowman> tracker: http://spacenear.us/tracker
[12:50] <jonsowman> telemetry format details: http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[12:51] <jonsowman> many people around the country listen to flights (voluntarily), and everyone uploads data to the central tracker which you see at that link
[12:51] <bubbu> but getting the help of a radio club would benefit us with tracking, no?
[12:51] <jonsowman> it's a very useful system and makes for reliable and easy tracking of payloads
[12:51] <jonsowman> bubbu: oh certainly, the more people that track, the better!
[12:51] <jonsowman> they can also upload their data to the tracker system
[12:52] <bubbu> back to the microprocessor, arduino, I see many boards on their product page.
[12:53] <jonsowman> yep, there are lots
[12:53] <jonsowman> the most widely used is the Uno
[12:53] <kiwi_> If I may throw in a question, how are the strings uploaded to the tracker? Do people parse them manually and type in?
[12:53] <jonsowman> kiwi_: have a read of http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[12:54] <jonsowman> all will become clear :)
[12:54] <kiwi_> thx
[12:55] <jonsowman> bubbu: the Uno has a system operating voltage of 5V, which is compatible with the NTX2, and you can buy a 5V compatible GPS breakout board (http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=68)
[12:55] <bubbu> ntx2 is the radio?
[12:55] <jonsowman> correct
[12:56] <jonsowman> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_63&product_id=62
[12:56] <bubbu> wil lthis work in Canada? (pardon my lack of knowledge)
[12:56] <bubbu> or better yet, is it legel here? I read somewhere some GPS's not allowed above certain altitude
[12:56] <jonsowman> bubbu: it will certainly work, but I'm unsure of the frequency allocations
[12:57] <bubbu> ntx2 has to be soldered on?
[12:57] <bubbu> and that's a radio!?
[12:58] <bubbu> i'm picturing something with an antenna and hand held lol
[12:58] <jonsowman> you could solder it directly to your stripboard or pcb, or you could put it on wires
[12:58] <jonsowman> that's up to you
[12:59] <bubbu> the GPS module is someting that just plugs into the board?
[12:59] <jonsowman> it talks to the arduino via a serial link
[13:00] <jonsowman> normal RS232 stuff, nothing fancy
[13:00] <bubbu> got it
[13:00] <jonsowman> bubbu: your point about GPS altitude, it's important to use a GPS that does not have the altitude limit
[13:00] <jonsowman> the ones on HAB supplies are such units
[13:01] <bubbu> questions - these guys that do it with cell phones, they can only track up to a certain altitude and have to wait until the payload is within range before they can determine it's location>
[13:02] <jonsowman> yes, the reason we don't normally advise cell phones is that 1) coverage drops off by 5km altitude (if you're lucky) and 2) you're not guaranteed to land in an area with signal
[13:04] <bubbu> okay .. jonsowman to be honest, I know NOTHING about radios. But this stuff intrigues the hell out of me. What's a good starting point in general for someone with ZERO experience
[13:06] <jonsowman> well, are you wanting to know more about radio in general, or specifically the systems we use on HABs?
[13:06] <bubbu> specifically in HABS
[13:06] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Watch a few flights on the Tracker, get yourself an SDR (Software Defned Radio) Dongle and track a few flights, read this IRC search and peruse the Wiki, after a few weeks you will have a good idea on what you need to do!
[13:07] <fsphil> tracking other peoples flights is always good practice
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[13:07] <fsphil> and less pressure on you :)
[13:07] <bubbu> but from what I've been reading, the use of radios, digis etc makes HAB easier as opposed to the cheap DIY cell phone method. I'm a school teacher and I see so much potential with this in education - I"d like to have a good starting point. The website you gave me has a lot of technical terminology I am not familar with.
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[13:08] <jonsowman> bubbu: definitely learn by doing stuff
[13:08] <N5VEI> Hello all. Is there anyone who can activate a flight on spacenear tracker?
[13:08] <jonsowman> grab yourself the basics for a HAB payload and try transmitting things!
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[13:08] <jonsowman> no problem N5VEI, what's the flight doc id?
[13:08] <bubbu> basics? such as a radio?
[13:08] <N5VEI> b37032531366b45ee29ec4f2d37be4c3
[13:09] <jonsowman> bubbu: if you can borrow a radio capable of SSB from your local radio club, that will make things a bit easier to start with
[13:09] <jonsowman> you can buy one, but even the cheapest are not-that-cheap
[13:09] <jonsowman> N5VEI: that's a payload config, not a flight doc - they don't need approval
[13:09] <jonsowman> it should work straight off
[13:09] <mattbrejza> starting at £75 on ebay bubbu
[13:10] <jonsowman> bubbu: the alternative is an SDR (software defined radio) but these are a tad more complex
[13:10] <bubbu> do I need a license to operate a SSB ?
[13:10] <N5VEI> ok. I was trying to get my fldigi to load a config but did not see our flight. It has been a while and all this is new since my last flight
[13:11] <jonsowman> bubbu: you do not need a license to receive
[13:11] <jonsowman> which is what you'll be doing
[13:11] <bubbu> got it
[13:11] <jonsowman> bubbu: however, doing amateur radio licenses is a great way to learn about radio
[13:11] <jonsowman> your local radio club will be able to help with that, certainly
[13:11] <jonsowman> i would recommend it as a thing worth doing
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[13:12] <bubbu> okay
[13:12] <bubbu> BAOFENG UV-3R (Mark II) UPGRADE 136-174/400-470Mhz Dual Freq Display how's that?
[13:12] <N5VEI> What do I need to do to activte the flight so that FLdigi can load the config? Or where do I get the flight info. I am logged into the config site right now.
[13:12] <jonsowman> bubbu: it needs to be SSB capable, which that one is not
[13:13] <mattbrejza> N5VEI: xor checksum is highly advised against
[13:13] <jonsowman> bubbu: even though it is an FM transmitter, we listen on AM (SSB) in order to generate tones that can be fed into a computer soundcard, and then decoded by fldigi
[13:13] <bubbu> okay! that makes sense
[13:13] <N5VEI> XOR sum... you lost me. Is that in our config?
[13:13] <jonsowman> bubbu: if that makes sense, you're ahead of a lot of people ;)
[13:13] <bubbu> so stuff like aprs - what does that work on>?
[13:14] <kiwi_> Hi bubbu, I wonder about that education aspect. What do you want to teach with a HAB?
[13:14] <jonsowman> bubbu: APRS uses AFSK instead of FSK
[13:14] <bubbu> okay - what's AFSK and FSK
[13:14] <jonsowman> that's probably not much help to you - the internet will show you the difference
[13:14] <mattbrejza> yea the doc says xor N5VEI
[13:14] <N5VEI> ok. Our flight stuff is under KC5NXD
[13:14] <jonsowman> bubbu: suffice to say here that AFSK is more difficult to generate, so we use plain FSK from our payloads
[13:15] <mattbrejza> eithr way to select a payload that isnt an active flight, you need to go into the menu somewhere and select your payload from a list of testing payloads
[13:15] <jonsowman> and then we make it appear like AFSK by listening on AM instead of FM
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[13:16] <bubbu> kiwi_ - with HAB, opening up possibilities for these kids, working on the desigh process and low cost options for space exploration. Mainly to create dreamers and promote STEM careers. Looking through the Arduino website, I saw a DIY UAV. This has already got me excited.
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[13:16] <jonsowman> bubbu: sounds great, there are lots of projects running in or with schools
[13:16] <jonsowman> getting pretty pictures from near-space is always pretty exciting
[13:17] <kiwi_> bubbu, what age are the kids?
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[13:17] <jonsowman> bubbu: I've been doing this for 4-5 years now, and pictures like this are still fantastic http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3740112703/in/set-72157621752577188/
[13:18] <N5VEI> ok... creating a flight profile now. This is a new thing to me. Sorry about that
[13:18] <bubbu> elementary school kids
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[13:18] <bubbu> K-8
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[13:18] <bubbu> incredible pcs!
[13:18] <bubbu> pics
[13:18] <kiwi_> jonsowman: very pretty pics
[13:19] <mattbrejza> N5VEI: only create a flight profile for when you need one, also fldigi will only show up flights when the flight is due to take place
[13:19] <jonsowman> :)
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[13:19] <jonsowman> bubbu: if you sign up the UKHAS mailing list, you'll get an email when there's a launch. then you can be in here and watch the tracker and see how it all works
[13:19] <jonsowman> http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas
[13:20] <bubbu> the space tracker via web?
[13:20] <kiwi_> I would like my solution to be used by schools. It's so light-weight it doesn't need a NOTAM in some countries. But it's not adapted to those extreme altitudes.
[13:20] <mattbrejza> N5VEI: in fldigi click the 'browse all' button, clock on the all payloads (tetsing) tab, and find your payload in there
[13:20] <jonsowman> bubbu: that is just a mailing list, it's not too high volume so it won't fill your inbox
[13:20] <bubbu> kiwi_ - what' your solution?
[13:21] <bubbu> awesome thakns
[13:21] <kiwi_> Here: http://kiwiembedded.com/windsond/
[13:22] <N5VEI> I will do that in FLDigi. I created the flight profile since the flight is coming up. the number is b37032531366b45ee29ec4f2d39d1a33
[13:22] <bubbu> how do I make use of APRS for tracking?
[13:23] <jonsowman> bubbu: we don't use APRS in the UK since we are not permitted to use amateur radio kit from airborne systems
[13:23] <jonsowman> it is permitted in the USA
[13:23] <jonsowman> I'm unsure about Canada
[13:23] <jonsowman> so that is the first thing to check
[13:23] <bubbu> It is permitted here from what I have read.
[13:23] <bubbu> amateur radio kit - is this an all in one?
[13:23] <jonsowman> ok, in which case you could go down that route if you so wished
[13:24] <jonsowman> bubbu: I'm afraid I'm not really up to date on APRS systems
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[13:24] <Geoff-G8DHE_> But you will need an AR licence of course to use it on the AR bands
[13:24] <bubbu> no worries! :)
[13:24] <jonsowman> but I think there are all in one APRS trackers
[13:24] <Geoff-G8DHE_> There are but not the sort of weight you would like to fly!
[13:24] <bubbu> hey geoff - that's where I would recruit the help of a local radio club? lol
[13:25] <bubbu> all in one aprs tracker must be pricey i'm assuming
[13:25] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Its a good starting point, certainly make contact and get an understanding
[13:25] <jonsowman> bubbu: in fact, several groups in the US have switched to using the UK's ISM band stuff since it's reliable, often cheaper, and often lighter
[13:25] <jonsowman> so that's still an option for you
[13:25] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Exactly
[13:26] <jonsowman> APRS is not necessarily the best solution
[13:26] <jonsowman> but you do indeed have it as an option
[13:26] <bubbu> what's an ISM band
[13:26] <jonsowman> they are license exempt
[13:26] <jonsowman> (industry, scientific and medical)
[13:26] <bubbu> we're looking really for simplicity
[13:26] <jonsowman> the kind of thing that garage doors and car plips use
[13:26] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Also you may find that GPS systems for most APRS again hit the height /flying limits
[13:27] <jonsowman> bubbu: we only use 10mW of transmit power (legal limit), but we can hear payloads from 750+km away
[13:27] <bubbu> is the tracking real time?
[13:27] <jonsowman> the power limit is not as big a deal as it first appears
[13:27] <jonsowman> bubbu: it is indeed
[13:27] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Have you watched the http://spacenear.us/tracker page ?
[13:28] <jonsowman> bubbu: the other thing to point out is the flight predictor: http://habhub.org/predict
[13:28] <bubbu> hmm .. okay .. with ISM, how would a radio club help with tracking>?
[13:28] <bubbu> checking spacenear now
[13:28] <jonsowman> bubbu: amateur radios can be tuned to ISM bands
[13:28] <bubbu> got it
[13:28] <Geoff-G8DHE_> You need lots of receiving stations along the path to help receive the data, the mor the better, one can do it but signals fade etc so more receivers help
[13:29] <jonsowman> bubbu: if you're lucky, the club might have a directional antenna on a rotator system that you can use
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[13:30] <bubbu> so how does receiving stations work with ISM - how is this information translated into a website such as spacenar
[13:30] <bubbu> spacenear*
[13:30] <jonsowman> the signal is demodulated and turned into audio by the radio
[13:30] <Geoff-G8DHE_> The receiveied data is decoded and then sent back to the website and plotted
[13:31] <kiwi_> bubbu: If you're looking for simplicity, do you need so high altitude? There are some issues to consider for that.
[13:31] <jonsowman> this is fed into a computer soundcard and we have a soundcard modem called dl-fldigi which decodes the data into the telemetry sentence that was transmitted
[13:31] <bubbu> ahh! hence laptop and data stick
[13:31] <jonsowman> dl-fldigi will then upload the data to the central tracking system
[13:31] <Geoff-G8DHE_> There is a program DL-fldigi which does it virtually automatically
[13:31] <jonsowman> (called 'habitat', if you see that word mentioned)
[13:31] <bubbu> what issues kiwi
[13:32] <bubbu> so basically, it's GPS signal -> radio wave -> fldigi translates -> telemetry?
[13:32] <Geoff-G8DHE_> http://www.ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[13:33] <kiwi_> You need sensitive receiver or several receivers, protect electronics against extreme temperature, long way to go to recover the payload
[13:33] <jonsowman> bubbu: broadly speaking, you've got it
[13:33] <Darkside> kiwi_: yes, but its not that hard
[13:33] <N5VEI> mattbrejza I see the browse all, but I when I click on the payload callsign and save... nothing happens. It does not show on the active flights. I have a few people around here oading the FLDigi HAB and hope to do some testing before the mission in 2 weeks
[13:33] <Darkside> and you don't always need to go a long way
[13:34] <Darkside> kiwi_: if you study the launch predictions, and only launch when the predictions are good, then you may not have to drive far at all
[13:34] <Darkside> kiwi_: as for extreme cold, a foam box works wonders
[13:34] <Darkside> also, the coldest part of the flight is at about 12km altitude, the tropopause
[13:34] <Darkside> above that the payloads start getting warmer
[13:35] <kiwi_> Ok, just seems that people spend a long time preparing and maybe bubbu doesn't need that
[13:36] <Darkside> you need the same preparation for a low altitude flight as a high altitude flight
[13:36] <Darkside> if you want to get the payload back that is
[13:36] <bubbu> We're hoping to launch in June
[13:36] <bubbu> will that give us enough time?
[13:37] <jonsowman> payloads have been constructed in less time, certainly
[13:37] <N5VEI> jonsowman you still here
[13:37] <jonsowman> I am indeed N5VEI
[13:37] <jonsowman> what's up?
[13:37] <N5VEI> ok. I created a flight profile for the launch in 2 weeks. I have that number now
[13:38] <jonsowman> sure, you don't need that approved for testing on spacenear though
[13:38] <jonsowman> it should show up as long as there's a valid payload config
[13:39] <N5VEI> Well I was hoping to have it up so that the locals could see the active flights so they could get everything setup. I could not get the flight to load from the "browse all" in the old stuff
[13:39] <N5VEI> Flight profile is: b37032531366b45ee29ec4f2d39d1a33
[13:39] <jonsowman> sure, I can approve it anyway
[13:39] <jonsowman> hold on
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[13:39] <jonsowman> N5VEI: ok that's done
[13:39] <chrisstubbs> N5VEI, are you launching in the UK in 2 weeks?
[13:40] <N5VEI> no... launching in the US. Using one of Wb8ELK's transmitters. I hope I am doing this right. This is what he said to do to get the info on the tracker and get the profile going
[13:41] <chrisstubbs> Ah ok cool, just i am planning to launch in 2 weeks too and didnt want a frequency clash :)
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[13:42] <N5VEI> We are launching april 13th at 1500 utc (9am local) and using 14.104 mhz
[13:42] <mattbrejza> N5VEI: its there now, you might just need to hit refresh in the dl client menu
[13:43] <N5VEI> Thank you
[13:43] <chrisstubbs> awesome, gool luck with the flight!
[13:43] <N5VEI> Thanks
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[13:45] <bubbu> the radio receivers for SSB are a bit pricey on ukhas
[13:45] <bubbu> anything a little less?
[13:46] <jonsowman> you may well be able to borrow one from your radio club
[13:46] <bubbu> ahh .. SDR dongle?
[13:46] <jonsowman> also an option
[13:46] <jonsowman> bit harder to use
[13:46] <jonsowman> but definitely cheap
[13:46] <jonsowman> :)
[13:46] <mfa298> the sdr dongles will certainly work for testing and some people have used them for tracking real flights
[13:47] <bubbu> "WARNING : It is unlikely you will be able to use these devices for tracking a real flight unless you have a very good antenna. However for bench testing payloads they are more than adequate."
[13:47] <mfa298> something like the FunCube Dongle is a nice middle ground between the rtl-sdr and an amateur rig with ssb
[13:47] <bubbu> " isn't recommended for actual tracking and recovery of your own payload. "
[13:49] <mfa298> if you're going for an rtl-sdr and can use a similar frequency as the uk ISM band then the habamp will help a lot
[13:49] <S_Mark> Here is the dongle setup that I am going to be using for our flight very soon. I have used this to track other balloons with no problems at all
[13:49] <mfa298> some of the radio side is probably worth talking to the local radio club about as they will have a better idea of the Canadian regulations than most people here do
[13:50] <S_Mark> http://www.stratodean.co.uk/2013/01/the-receiver-and-antenna.html
[13:50] <chrisstubbs> Hi Mark
[13:51] <chrisstubbs> amusing parachute test video
[13:52] <S_Mark> Hey Chris
[13:52] <S_Mark> Tracker looks good
[13:52] <S_Mark> Haha just a bit of messing around
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[13:54] <bubbu> mfa, if using the ISM it seems like you don't need a license, would that apply to most places around the world?
[13:55] <mfa298> I think ISM tends to be license exempt but the frequencies may vary between countries
[13:55] <mfa298> ISM is designed for low power devices/
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[13:55] <jonsowman> from a random google result: "On the other hand the ISM band 433.05-434.79 MHz. is not available in Canada."
[13:55] <mfa298> you migt also find that not all ISM frequencies can be used airborne
[13:56] <chrisstubbs> S_Mark, messy soldering, but it works
[13:56] <bubbu> "SM band 433.05-434.79 MHz. is not available in Canada. Therefore, ISM devices operating in this frequency range may not interfere with amateur radio in Canada."
[13:56] <bubbu> Thanks Jon, I'm assuming that's what you use in the UK
[13:56] <jonsowman> yeah, 70cm -> 434MHz (ish)
[13:57] <bubbu> okay, so information on the UKHAs website is not applicable to canada?
[13:57] <jonsowman> radio people tend to refer to bands by their wavelength rather than their frequency
[13:57] <jonsowman> so you'll often hear "2m band" for the 144MHz area
[13:58] <bubbu> okay
[13:58] <bubbu> https://www.rac.ca/en/rac/services/bandplans/allband.php
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[13:59] <jonsowman> so there is an amateur band in that area
[14:00] <Geoff-G8DHE_> You may find that as in the USA amateur radio can be flown Canda in which case the same equipment could be used
[14:00] <Geoff-G8DHE_> *in Canada
[14:01] <bubbu> 430mhz - 450mhz .. is that ISM?
[14:01] <Darkside> no
[14:01] <mfa298> bubbu: that link is for amateur radio frequencies which will require a license
[14:01] <bubbu> got it
[14:01] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Its globally an Amateur radio band, but the ISM allocations which share some of the frequeinces are not
[14:01] <mfa298> and you would need to see if AR kit can be flown (and what license level is needed)
[14:02] <bubbu> okay
[14:02] <mfa298> I just found http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/vwapj/rss210e.pdf/$FILE/rss210e.pdf which looks like it has some of the license exampt stuff in it
[14:05] <bubbu> found a ready to go kit
[14:05] <bubbu> http://www.byonics.com/mt-rtg
[14:06] <Darkside> thats APRS
[14:06] <Darkside> which needs an amateur license
[14:07] <mfa298> Darkside: more correctly it's 2m Amateur Radio which will require an Amateur Radio
[14:07] <mfa298> require an Amateur License
[14:08] <mfa298> but if you can get the radio club on board and it's ok to use AR kit airborne in canada then you might be able to do it with the help of the club
[14:08] <bubbu> yup
[14:08] <bubbu> thanks mfa, looks like i'll need outside help unless I get an amateur radio license myself
[14:09] <Geoff-G8DHE_> also need to make sure that the GPS will work at the required altitudes
[14:09] <bubbu> Geoff you from US?
[14:09] <Geoff-G8DHE_> No UK
[14:09] <Geoff-G8DHE_> hence the G callsign
[14:10] <bubbu> first on checklist - HAM radio for Dummies LOL
[14:10] <mfa298> bubbu: that's where the UK system can work if you can find a suitable ISM frequency as it doesn't require a license
[14:10] <mfa298> but there is a bit more effort in putting the tracker together
[14:10] <bubbu> how are ISM frequencies created? Why is it not done in Canada?
[14:11] <bubbu> bloody Canadians.
[14:11] <bubbu> wish my parents immigrated to the UK
[14:11] <Geoff-G8DHE_> They are created but the world is split into the 3 regions Europe, Americas etc. they have different allocations apart from some global agreements
[14:11] <mfa298> ISM is just a class of device. There may well be ISM bands but they are different to the UK
[14:11] <bubbu> got it
[14:12] <mfa298> the PDF I linked earlier looks to have at least some of the license exempt frequencies in it
[14:12] <Geoff-G8DHE_> You will have ISM but need to look them up, lots of them are global but not all
[14:12] <Geoff-G8DHE_> they don't seem to have 70cms ISM only for RFID devices which are global
[14:12] <mfa298> and you might find that some ISM frequencies cannot be used airborne.
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[14:14] <arko> Up:
[14:14] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[14:14] <arko> Upu:
[14:14] <chrisstubbs> and away!
[14:14] <Upu> yo
[14:14] <arko> Damn autocorrect
[14:14] <arko> We are at the launch sitr
[14:14] <arko> Site
[14:14] <Geoff-G8DHE_> That Byonics APRS only works to 18Km, most balloons got to 30+Km other than Pico flights
[14:14] <arko> Soon to start transmitting
[14:14] <arko> Probably in 1hour
[14:14] <bubbu> essentially the components I would have normally set up for an ISM situation are the same as APRS? You have a GPS receiver, signal gets interpreted into a radio wave?
[14:14] <Upu> ok script running
[14:15] <Upu> est burst ?
[14:15] <Geoff-G8DHE_> bubbu yes that right different modulation methods
[14:15] <arko> 10am launch
[14:15] <arko> 11:30burst
[14:15] <bubbu> oaky
[14:15] <arko> 12:30 land
[14:15] <arko> Err 1700utc launch
[14:16] <arko> 1830utc burst
[14:16] <arko> 1930utc land
[14:16] <arko> Heh
[14:16] <arko> Idamn it
[14:16] <arko> Phone
[14:16] <Upu> altitude :)
[14:16] <arko> Derp
[14:16] <arko> 31km expected
[14:17] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Something also to consider is that at the end of the flight, the aerial may be aganst the earth, so when direction finding the payload over the last few feet you need a continous signal to direction find!
[14:17] <Upu> and launh locaton ?
[14:17] <Upu> I'll work it out
[14:17] <arko> Twentynine palms
[14:17] <arko> Ca
[14:17] <arko> wiki.032.la/nsl/HABEX2
[14:17] <arko> For infoz
[14:17] <Geoff-G8DHE_> group over here recently sent a data burst lasting 0.1 seconds every 4 seconds they would never have DF'ed it they had to hope that they would be able to see the payload from a distance
[14:18] <bubbu> what's DF'ed
[14:18] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Direction Finding DF
[14:19] <arko> Upu: need anything else? We are going to start prep and testing
[14:19] <arko> Unpacking first
[14:19] <Geoff-G8DHE_> whilst you might have the Lat/Long it will have an error also when in bushes you can't see the payload hence need to use Radio Direction Finding methods
[14:20] <chrisstubbs> good luck arko
[14:20] <arko> Thanks!
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[14:23] <S_Mark> good luck arko, what's the weather like in CA?
[14:23] <arko> Its a little cool now
[14:23] <arko> But seeing how we are in the desert
[14:24] <arko> Its gonna get hot very soon
[14:29] <Upu> ping Babs can you put dl-fldigi in offline mode whilst live flight pls thx
[14:29] <Upu> 34.1371, -116.053
[14:29] <Upu> ignore
[14:32] <Upu> should all be good Arbition
[14:33] <Upu> err arko
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[14:34] <bubbu> anyne from US
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[14:54] <nbookham> Hi everyone! I'm trying to track BABSHAB but I'm not having much luck. Can someone help me?
[14:55] <Geoff-G8DHE__> What is the problem ?
[14:55] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE__ -> Geoff-G8DHE
[14:56] <nbookham> I'm not getting any RTTY data
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[14:56] <nbookham> My radio is tuned to 434.0750
[14:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> So what is the receive setup
[14:56] <nbookham> Errr, I'm not to sure. I'm a total noob at this.
[14:56] <nbookham> *too
[14:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> OK What is the radio that is tuned to 434.075
[14:57] <Upu> nbookham its not in the air
[14:57] <nbookham> Has it landed?
[14:57] <Upu> no its not up it just testing data
[14:57] <nbookham> Doh!
[14:58] <Upu> I think he might be climbing to the top of a hill with it today
[14:58] <nbookham> Are there any live balloons?
[14:58] <Upu> only one in America
[14:58] <Upu> next weekend
[14:58] <Upu> is looking promising
[14:58] <nbookham> Do you know when Dave Akerman will be flying?
[14:59] <Upu> Possibly next weekend
[14:59] <Upu> jsut depends on weather and predictions
[14:59] <Upu> are you subscribed to the mailing list ?
[14:59] <nbookham> Awesome. I met him once and he got me interested in HABing
[14:59] <Upu> launch announcements are generally made there
[14:59] <nbookham> No, I'm not on the list.
[15:00] <Upu> I would join it
[15:00] <nbookham> cheers
[15:01] <bubbu> anyone have experience with RTrak-HAB
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[15:01] <nbookham> If a ballon gets launched, is there any setup or specific frequemcy if should tune to?
[15:01] <Upu> yikes those are expensive
[15:01] <Geoff-G8DHE> It will be stated in the announcment what the frequency and protocol should be
[15:02] <Upu> looks like a decent board bubbu if a tad on the expensive side
[15:02] <Geoff-G8DHE> If you look at the Top Left windw in the Tracker it will list known launches with the freq. protocol etc.
[15:02] <bubbu> cheapest method Upu would be to obviously build myself?
[15:03] <Upu> by a mile
[15:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> Bear in mind you don't always get the payload back .....
[15:03] <Upu> or try a Trackuino
[15:03] <nbookham> @geoff Thanks. In dl-fldigi if I select browse all, and the ballon is flying, will my client be setup automatically?
[15:03] <Upu> if you're going to stick with APRS
[15:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> If you click Auto Config yes
[15:03] <Upu> http://www.trackuino.org/
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[15:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> At least for the protocol not the actual radio freuency unless its controlling the rig
[15:04] <Upu> afk a few
[15:04] <nbookham> OK, this is making much more sense! Thanks :D
[15:04] <bubbu> for me?
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[15:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> <nbookham> Bear in mind that the radio freq. is approx. they drift with temperature in lots of cases so always tune/watch the waterfall around the channel.
[15:07] <nbookham> Thanks
[15:08] <nbookham> BTW, I've left the callsign empty. Do I need to set one or get a licence?
[15:09] <mfa298> nbookham: for what the UK does you dont need a license
[15:09] <mfa298> also you don't need a license to listen to Amateur radio stuff just to transmit on amateur radio
[15:10] <nbookham> OK, so shall I leave the callsign blank?
[15:10] <mfa298> you probably want to put something in the callsign box so you appear on the map but it could just be your irc nick or similar
[15:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> Could use your "nbookham" then others can associate the "callsign" with the IRC at leat
[15:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> *least
[15:10] <mfa298> if you want to appear on the map you need to set callsign and lat/long/alt in the dl-fldigi settings
[15:11] <nbookham> Ok
[15:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> There are aso TWO Location Tabs set up both!
[15:11] <nbookham> What's QTH and Locator?
[15:11] <mfa298> QTH is home location
[15:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> QTH is Abbreviation for address
[15:12] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[15:12] <mfa298> don't worry about locator (unless you want to work out what it is)
[15:12] <Elwell> Q for ham people - what db do you put your info in - qrz.com / hamqth.com / other?
[15:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> Locator is normally the amateur radio locator system
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[15:13] <Elwell> see http://f6fvy.free.fr/qthLocator for locator
[15:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> or http://www.levinecentral.com/ham/grid_square.php
[15:13] <nbookham> Is the software already set up to use spacenear.us?
[15:14] <Willdude123> Can people get on to willdover.co.uk ? It seems down to me.
[15:14] <bubbu> is trackuini based on aprs?
[15:14] <bubbu> Trackuino*
[15:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> Need to set your Lat/Long in the DL Config | Location tab
[15:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> Staionery Location
[15:14] <chris_99> you guys may be interested in this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-DVR-808-16-V2-Car-Key-Chain-Micro-Camera-Real-HD-720P-Pocket-Camcorder-/150860529062?pt=US_Surveillance_Digital_Video_Recorders_Cards&hash=item231ffcfda6
[15:14] <chris_99> apparently they're used in model rocketry
[15:15] <chris_99> (£26.99)
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[15:16] <jcoxon> ping Upu
[15:16] <jcoxon> WB8ELK is in the air
[15:16] <jcoxon> on spacenear.us
[15:18] <nbookham> Ok, thanks, this should be easy because of my Geocaching skills :D
[15:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> You will appear as an Aerial mast on th tracker when connected
[15:21] <nbookham> Lets have a look...
[15:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah Ha Petersfield
[15:23] <nbookham> Yep, that's me!
[15:23] <nbookham> Does Dave use SSDV to send his images back?
[15:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes he does
[15:23] <Elwell> RevSpace got lat/lon in the wrong order?
[15:24] <Elwell> its off somalia
[15:24] <nbookham> =D
[15:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> lol
[15:24] <nbookham> I've done that before when entering coords into my GPS
[15:25] <Elwell> we all have. or forget a -
[15:26] <nbookham> yep
[15:27] <nbookham> Going back to Dave, if I just opened up the RX window would it just work?
[15:28] <griffonbot> Received email: Anders Petersson "[UKHAS] Presenting Windsond"
[15:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> WB8ELK Flightpath http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WB8ELK/
[15:29] <Elwell> out of 1017 photons aimed at the reflector, only one will be received back on Earth every few seconds -- flip the lottery has better odds
[15:29] <Elwell> thats 10^17
[15:29] <nbookham> :)
[15:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> SSDV you need to turn on the SSDV Tab stuff
[15:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> and Open the window to watch
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[15:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> DL-Client | General turn on the Enable then save also View select SSDV
[15:31] <nbookham> cheers
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[15:33] <nbookham> All I have is a save images checkbox
[15:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> Do you not have addresses in the other fields
[15:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> By default you shoud have an URL to send the data, then specify a location on your machine to save images locally, then tick the box
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[15:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> <nbookham> screendumps of the SSDV setup http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/index.php?ind=2
[15:41] <nbookham> cheers
[15:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Climbing nicely http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WB8ELK/index.php?ind=2
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[15:46] Nick change: cuddykid_ -> cuddykid
[15:50] <fsphil> SSDV packets will be detected automatically, even if you don't have the SSDV RX window opened
[15:50] <fsphil> but you do need the callsign field filled in with something before it uploads
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[15:53] <nbookham> ok
[15:53] <nbookham> cheers
[15:53] <wb5rmg-Alan> following WB8ELK/UAH ballonsat on 144.35FM/RTTY
[15:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> <fsphil> What keys/shortcuts are there for saving the waterfall image ?
[15:54] <wb5rmg-Alan> upgraded today to dl-fldigi_3.21.50
[15:54] <fsphil> Geoff-G8DHE: don't believe there are any. there is an option to periodically save the waterfall as a PNG image
[15:55] <fsphil> under DL Client
[15:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah its just a timed option is it I'll play!
[15:55] <fsphil> I believe so yea
[15:55] <fsphil> it was added as part of a system to remote control fldigi over the web
[15:55] <wb5rmg-Alan> I capture waterfall images with the built-in screen grabber from MS-OneNote
[15:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup that's what I have done in the past, but saw the config the other day and was looking for a key to activate it ;-)
[15:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Crossing the lake http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WB8ELK/index.php?ind=3
[16:00] <Upu> news
[16:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> braking
[16:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> or even breaking
[16:02] <wb5rmg-Alan> seems odd, the text port display is lagging a few minutes behind the real-time ?
[16:02] <fsphil> that's a known bug wb5rmg-Alan
[16:02] <fsphil> right click on the display and clear it
[16:02] <fsphil> it should restore it for a while
[16:03] <wb5rmg-Alan> OK, glad its not just me . . /;^)
[16:03] <wb5rmg-Alan> much more bettah !
[16:04] <fsphil> yea it's quite annoying. it'll be fixed in the next version
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[16:08] <wb5rmg-Alan> I was accustomed to seeing my inputs on the robertharrison page, I see some new scheme now : habitat.habhub ?
[16:08] <wb5rmg-Alan> Is there some way to monitor/check input streams ?
[16:09] <wb5rmg-Alan> It appears to no longer spot these receivers on the map ?
[16:09] <fsphil> your data should be uploading to the map as before
[16:09] <fsphil> but it doesn't use rob's server anymore
[16:09] <wb5rmg-Alan> roger, it does show up as a receiver on the map display..
[16:09] <fsphil> the data is uploaded to a system called habitat now
[16:10] <fsphil> http://habitat.habhub.org/
[16:11] <wb5rmg-Alan> If you are listening (watching) in here Bill, I have not heard a peep on 433.996
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[16:11] <fsphil> bill is here > WB8ELK
[16:11] <fsphil> though possibly busy
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[16:14] <jcoxon> wb5rmg-Alan, http://habitat.habhub.org/logtail/
[16:15] <jcoxon> thats a rolling stream of dta
[16:17] <wb5rmg-Alan> yessir, found it - pretty cool. live filters could be handy, but this is good !
[16:17] <fsphil> it's quite a bit more verbose than the old system :)
[16:18] <wb5rmg-Alan> I have been away for a little while, and just upgraded from r114. You've come a long way - Looks Good .!.
[16:18] <jcoxon> wb5rmg-Alan, we should suggest that...
[16:18] <jcoxon> wb5rmg-Alan, lots of work on the server side
[16:19] <jcoxon> its now much more flexible
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[16:23] <wb5rmg-Alan> cute little pie-charts too. At first I thought it might have decoded telemetry graphs of stuff like battery, ascent rate... that would make it too easy
[16:27] <jcoxon> yeah there is an api
[16:28] <lz1dev> wb5rmg-Alan: http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/
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[16:37] <brian__> hello all
[16:38] <eroomde> hello brian__
[16:39] <brian__> not much chatting in here?!
[16:39] <kiwi_> Hi Brian
[16:39] <DanielRichman> we try to avoid chatting in here; we're scared of awakening the eroomde
[16:39] <brian__> anyone watching WB8ELK today?
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[16:40] <brian__> ooooo kn
[16:40] <fsphil> sssh DanielRichman
[16:40] <eroomde> easter saturday here too
[16:40] <eroomde> more people probably doing family stuff
[16:40] <brian__> first time here for me
[16:40] <lz1dev> fsphil: trying to secure shell into DanielRichman huh?
[16:40] <eroomde> i am tired and have a headache, which I have just diagnosed as not yet having had coffee today (going to family home breaks routine)
[16:40] <eroomde> about to medicate and see wat happens
[16:41] <fsphil> I've one of those too. they're no fun
[16:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> WB8ELK http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WB8ELK/index.php
[16:42] <brian__> nice Geooff
[16:42] <brian__> how did you do that?
[16:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Use the Google Earth interface to the tracker, see the lower right corner and click it
[16:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> You get a much nicer feel for what's happining!
[16:44] <eroomde> fsphil: sucks doesn;t it
[16:45] <brian__> i see
[16:45] <brian__> PanoTolls.org Wiki?
[16:46] <brian__> *Tools
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[16:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> Helmut Dersch Pano Tools developments
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[16:49] <wb5rmg-Alan> hi brian_ I'm tracking wb8elk live
[16:50] <brian__> cool
[16:50] <wb5rmg-Alan> brian_ ? where are you ?
[16:50] <arko> Delaying launch by 45 mins
[16:50] <eroomde> what's up arko?
[16:50] <arko> Upu:^
[16:51] <fsphil> you got internet ok out there?
[16:51] <arko> One of the radios broke (backup one)
[16:51] <arko> Yep
[16:51] <arko> I'm shocked
[16:51] <arko> Better internet than cell internet at home
[16:51] <arko> Full bars
[16:51] <eroomde> that's annoying
[16:51] <eroomde> bravo or charlie?
[16:51] <Upu> hi Arko
[16:51] <Upu> no probs
[16:51] <arko> Charlie
[16:52] <Willdude123> Are hams required to memorize the phonetic alphabet?
[16:52] <arko> Building and programming a new one on the spot
[16:52] <eroomde> i've seen charlie break a few people in its time
[16:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> Born with it in the mind before speech
[16:52] <Upu> yes Willdude123
[16:52] <Morseman> Willdude123 Many seem to make their own versions up anyway!
[16:52] <eroomde> Willdude123: firm requirement. useful with callcentres too
[16:52] <Willdude123> I know 3 or so letters.
[16:53] <Willdude123> I had to do that with a crappy microsoft support person.
[16:53] <Willdude123> I think I actually said "D for err err D"
[16:54] <Morseman> Here you go Willdude123 http://west-penwith.org.uk/misc/rhyme.htm
[16:54] <eroomde> as Morseman says, there seem to be personal styles
[16:54] <fsphil> I can't say victor without it sounding like ficktor. so I usually say victoria
[16:54] <Morseman> The one that gets me is, on a perfectly clear FM frequency, people who refer to the "QRMary"
[16:54] <eroomde> i do feel much better for having just had a coffee
[16:54] <eroomde> good
[16:55] <eroomde> equilibrium restored
[16:55] <fsphil> someone somewhere just got a bad headache though eroomde
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[16:55] <eroomde> they'll rise again, i'm sure
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[16:57] <eroomde> + paul and mary baking
[16:57] <kiwi_> I'm checking out the habhub mobile tracker. The faint red line, is that predicted course?
[17:03] <eroomde> kiwi_: I like the windsond btw
[17:03] <kiwi_> Thanks!
[17:07] <kiwi_> I'm adding code now to make the sond detect what frequency the ground station is on. The devil is in the details.
[17:09] <Hix> who's balloon is WB8ELK?
[17:09] <Hix> arko due at 17:00 Zulu no?
[17:09] <brian__> UAH
[17:10] <Hix> i spent the morning lookig for some steppers for my telescope mount. It has turned into a day of designing a completely overspecced GEM mount in CAD
[17:10] <Hix> That i know i will never make :/
[17:11] <eroomde> fun though
[17:11] <Hix> I should have done something constructive
[17:11] <wb5rmg-Alan> brian_ are yall tracking it from the ham shack, with the sat antennas ?
[17:11] <Hix> though If I could afford to make the GEm it would be sewwt
[17:11] <Hix> or sweet take your pick
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[17:13] <wb5rmg-Alan> brian_ OK, I see now - you were answering the who's balloon question.
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[17:14] <wb5rmg-Alan> brian_ I thought you were answering my previous Q, re: where you are...
[17:14] <bubbu> hey guys, does anyone have exp. with tinytrack>
[17:14] <wb5rmg-Alan> brian_ are you at UAH ?
[17:15] <wb5rmg-Alan> hmm, maybe you are really brian__, not brian_
[17:15] <brian__> no
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[17:16] <brian__> im tracking from home this tim
[17:16] <brian__> time
[17:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> <bubbu> The GPS2 unit only works to 18Km how high do you expect to fly ?
[17:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ok he's burst
[17:17] <kiwi_> WB8ELK started descending
[17:17] <bubbu> looking to get GPS4
[17:17] <kiwi_> You beat me to it
[17:17] <bubbu> can i get a link to see wb8elk ?
[17:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> Can you afford to loose it all on the first flight ?
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[17:18] <bubbu> hmm .. not really.
[17:18] <kiwi_> bubbu: http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/
[17:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> Not all flights return home....... some land in lakes / Sea etc some are lost
[17:18] <bubbu> a lot of people watching over my shoulders on this one
[17:19] <bubbu> for sure, no gaurantees
[17:19] <JamieCH> Avoiding the sea should be relatively possible, with use of the predictor? I'm guessing
[17:19] <wb5rmg-Alan> brian__ Oh, are you the tdm station ?
[17:19] <bubbu> we'll be picking a suitable location with prediction
[17:19] <bubbu> try to reduce that risk as much as possible.
[17:19] <brian__> yes
[17:19] <eroomde> bubbu: where are you based?
[17:19] <bubbu> Toronto, ON
[17:20] <eroomde> ah righty
[17:20] <eroomde> well at least you have space
[17:20] <bubbu> we have lots of it
[17:20] <bubbu> The TinyTracker with GPS4 .. good combo?
[17:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> Don't you have some lakes nearby ?
[17:20] <bubbu> lake ontario, but that's south east of us.. we'll be way north
[17:21] <wb5rmg-Alan> brian__ do you track ELK/UAH often ? I've been away from this for a few months now...
[17:21] <bubbu> no significant mountains or anything like that either, lots of farm land
[17:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> <bubbu> Are you watching the current flight ?
[17:21] <bubbu> yuyp
[17:22] <eroomde> i don't have much exzperience with aprs as i'm in the UK bubbu, buti think they're flown a bit in north america and I've not heard complaints
[17:22] <eroomde> so could be a good solution for you
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[17:22] <brian__> yea, usely i try to be out tracking mobile but when i cant do that i do it from home
[17:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> Crossing the lake http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WB8ELK/index.php?ind=6
[17:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> Rather its coming down!
[17:24] <wb5rmg-Alan> brian__ cool, you know Shane then, do you go with him sometimes ?
[17:25] <wb5rmg-Alan> looks like Todd - AL0I picked up a few posits around burst-time, in Boone NC. Are you in here Todd ?
[17:26] <brian__> o yea i know Shane, I did when i first started this. now i have a moblie setup of my own.
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[17:28] <wb5rmg-Alan> there are two additional UAH balloons following the ELK beacon, the 2nd nearing burst, if it hasn't already
[17:30] <Upu> is the other one on APRS ?
[17:30] <brian__> wb5rmg-Alan check this video out i just uploaded
[17:30] <eroomde> people seem to reserve an especially unnatural intonation for when they give church readings (carol service from kings on tv in bg)
[17:30] <wb5rmg-Alan> the last ELK posit I have copied well was # 306 ; I'm using the FM/RTTY on 2m
[17:30] <brian__> i cant hear it any more
[17:31] <wb5rmg-Alan> brian__ I hear it in the noise, but no copy
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[17:32] <wb5rmg-Alan> Upu both following balloons are on APRS UAH007 & UAH010
[17:33] <brian__> following all 3
[17:33] <Upu> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[17:33] <Upu> done
[17:33] <wb5rmg-Alan> the first balloon had 2 trackers; UAH-1 and wb8elk-12
[17:34] <brian__> yea
[17:39] <JamieCH> I'm curious, how many people have tried flying with hydrogen? There seem to be very mixed opinions about its safety, from the disaster theories to saying there's little risk at all (e.g. http://apollo67.com/hydrogen-balloon-test-complete-233/)
[17:39] <Upu> use it all the time its fine
[17:39] <Upu> better than He for everything apart from safety
[17:39] <wb5rmg-Alan> close to landing ... I'm sure that if there is a tree nearby, it will find it . . . /;^)
[17:40] <lz1dev> tree seeking payload
[17:40] <JamieCH> Never had any problems with fire/explosion, Upu?
[17:40] <Upu> no just take sensible precautions
[17:40] <JamieCH> And also, ooi, what does Hydrogen cost you? I couldn't find any prices quoted online
[17:40] <Upu> about 1/6 as much as He ish
[17:41] <eroomde> worth taking the risk of disappearing in a fireball for that kind of price saving
[17:41] <Upu> contary to popular misconception it doesn't just explode immediately
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[17:41] <JamieCH> Wow, okay. A lot cheaper
[17:41] <Upu> you have to mix it with air in the right amounts and ignite it
[17:41] <mattbrejza> 9m3 of H is only £30?
[17:41] <Upu> £50
[17:41] <Upu> I wouldn't get complaicent
[17:41] <cuddykid> daveake: are you running raspian on your pis?
[17:42] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:hydrogen?s[]=hydrogen
[17:42] <JamieCH> Sensible precautions = nothing that sparks, no smoking, ground the filling equipment, don't launch near power lines etc (not that that would be a great idea for He either), anything else major?
[17:42] <mattbrejza> is there some VAT in between there...
[17:42] <mattbrejza> and hire maybe too
[17:42] <Upu> and I would use He first few times
[17:42] <Upu> I think with the VAT and hire its about £80 ?
[17:42] <eroomde> btw i think one could make a good hydrogen mass flow meter for quite cheap
[17:42] <Upu> for 9m3
[17:43] <daveake> cuddykid yes
[17:43] <eroomde> so you could just program in a desired amount of He and have the meter (+ valve) put that right mass of hydrogen in
[17:43] <Upu> the expensive regulator you have to buy is paid off after first flight
[17:43] <eroomde> no more plastics bags pull of old crap
[17:43] <eroomde> full*
[17:43] <Upu> milk cartons with water eroomde pls
[17:43] <cuddykid> daveake: and upload code via ssh? I don't have a monitor to plug it into so looks like ssh is my only option
[17:43] <eroomde> my humblest apologies
[17:44] <daveake> Yeah I use ssh then edit with vi
[17:44] <daveake> ftp for backup
[17:44] <cuddykid> nice cheers :)
[17:44] <daveake> Other methods are available :)
[17:44] <cuddykid> I'll boot it up later :D
[17:44] <daveake> The Adafruit WebIDE looks interesting
[17:44] <cuddykid> and daveake - if I do go ahead with a launch this week - looks like it will be sometime between tues & thurs
[17:45] <Upu> at the end of the day H2 is explosive so take your own sensible precautions
[17:45] <cuddykid> so avoiding next weekend
[17:45] <daveake> wednesday then lol
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[17:45] <JamieCH> Yeah, I was just curious if there were any other major precautions you took Upu
[17:45] <cuddykid> (inclusive) lol
[17:45] <daveake> :)
[17:45] <eroomde> Upu: but basically, there exist some really nice simple ways of doing mass flow meters. you need a section of tube, in the tubew you have to put a very specific orifice plate. there is a BS manual that defines exactly what size and shape of orifice plate you need (basically the dimater of the hole) and then you need 2 pressure sensors, one upstream and one downstream of this plate (the manual will tell you how far). Then if you build that, they provide
[17:45] <eroomde> it's how we do it for hydrogen on our engines
[17:46] <eroomde> I suspect with some careful sourcing of parts you could make a home kit for about £100 in parts
[17:46] <wb5rmg-Alan> looks like 1st UAH/ELK payload is on the ground (tree?) near intersection of Boone Ford Rd, and Pendley Rd
[17:46] <Upu> as long as the maths works
[17:46] <eroomde> especially if you don;t mind shutting the gas on and off manually when it tells you, rather than using an electric valve
[17:47] <eroomde> well yes, but most engineering relies on the maths working :)
[17:47] <brian__> yep, see yall later
[17:47] <daveake> Just look at the balloon. Be at one with the fill. :p
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[17:48] <eroomde> if only
[17:49] <Upu> so are there any more wb5rmg-Alan than this lot : http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[17:50] <Upu> I think I've imported most of them
[17:50] <mattbrejza> hey eroomde know any 'nice' ways for choosing PI values for the loop filter in a reciever's bit synchroniser?
[17:50] <mattbrejza> so far i have 'seems to work '
[17:50] Action: SpeedEvil realises another reason to use natural gas.
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> convenient accurate meter.
[17:52] <wb5rmg-Alan> I believe that there were only three flights today from UAH Space Hardware Club http://space.uah.edu/space.php
[17:52] <lz1dev> D/fq 20
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[17:53] <eroomde> mattbrejza: no i hate it really
[17:53] <eroomde> all these tracking problems scream kalman filter to me
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=181060391225&index=1&nav=SEARCH&nid=36811797135
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[17:53] <eroomde> i had no fun choosing PI values for the tracking PLLS in the gps receiver
[17:54] <wb5rmg-Alan> it appears that Jason - KG4WSV has the other two flights APRS re-coded into the spacenear.us map. COOL .!.
[17:54] <eroomde> just fiddled around
[17:54] <mattbrejza> i suppose state space would sort the problem out nicely, but cba, it kinda works
[17:54] <mattbrejza> and much better than v1 thats currently in use
[17:54] <JamieCH> ermoode: implementing a kalman filter on a little microcontroller would not be much fun
[17:54] <JamieCH> Maybe some kind of simple complementary filter?
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> JamieCH: little micros that are $1 today have 32 bit processors and go at tens of meg
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> (or can)
[17:55] <mattbrejza> i would have thought the kalman filter a micro would be the least bad thing if youre trying to implement a soft gps
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[17:55] <mattbrejza> *in a
[17:55] <JamieCH> I've looked at kalman filters a few times, but they just make my head hurt =(
[17:55] <eroomde> JamieCH: it's easy enough really. depending on the tracking problem it might just be 2 states
[17:55] <JamieCH> Even if they are theoretically ideal
[17:56] <eroomde> there's nothing particularly computational tough about small ones
[17:56] <eroomde> computationally*
[17:57] <eroomde> obviously most linear algebra operations don;t scale very gracefully with their dimension. but who cares for small n
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[17:57] <mattbrejza> a lot of these quads use arduinos for their control
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> it's a step up from picbasic
[18:00] <Willdude123> On windows, with dl-fldigi I do playback, but I don't get two clear red lines.
[18:00] <Willdude123> It's kinda mixed in the middle with red and yellow.
[18:01] <eroomde> it might be noise
[18:01] <Willdude123> I could decode it on ubuntu though.
[18:01] <eroomde> the singnal to noise ratio is lower, the energy is less concentrated at the two frequencies
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[18:02] <Willdude123> But it's got to be to do with the fact I'm using windows.
[18:03] <eroomde> quite poss
[18:03] <eroomde> your soundcard on the windows pc might be noiser
[18:04] <eroomde> noisier*
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[18:05] <mfa298> if you're using the playback feature in dl-fldigi we found recently that it's fixed sample rate, it's quite possible it's different on windows/linux.
[18:05] <mfa298> you might find it better using something else to playback the file and pipe the audio through to dl-fldigi
[18:06] <mfa298> (use something like stereo mix if your soundcard supports it or virtual audio cable)
[18:06] <mfa298> doing it that way means you can also hear the data stream
[18:08] <kiwi_> What happened to WB8ELK, did it land?
[18:13] <wb5rmg-Alan> the first one is down, possibly recovered already; the 2nd may also be down by now, the 3rd is on the way down..
[18:14] <kiwi_> Thanks
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[18:17] <bubbu> Hey guys .. to transmit from a MicroTrak 8000F/A, all I need is an antenna and GPS capable of working up to altitude w/ power source on board? WIth radio, tnc and computer on ground?
[18:20] <mfa298> and an amateur radio license
[18:21] ibanezmatt13 (568c0e73@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.140.14.115) joined #highaltitude.
[18:21] <ibanezmatt13> Hi. does anybody know of any good software I can use to write my python programs. I'm bored of the standard Python shell
[18:22] <arko> launch in 2 minutes
[18:22] <eroomde> vim
[18:22] <arko> WOOOOOO
[18:22] <eroomde> warning: your life will change forever
[18:22] <ibanezmatt13> arko: really!
[18:22] <ibanezmatt13> eroomde: i thought vim was for c
[18:22] <eroomde> no
[18:22] <mfa298> vim is just a text editor
[18:22] <eroomde> vim is the text editor
[18:22] <mfa298> works for anything
[18:22] <eroomde> it does anything
[18:22] <mfa298> +1 for vim
[18:23] <ibanezmatt13> I've heard of a few, would you say vim was the best?
[18:23] <bubbu> mfa, and an amateur radio license. What's the difference then between getting a TinyTrak4 as opposed to a MicroTrak 8000F/A
[18:23] <bubbu> sorry, TinyTrak3
[18:23] <eroomde> you might be baffled initially. go and find a tutorial on vim. but stick with it, it's the best thing out there
[18:23] <ibanezmatt13> ok, thanks
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[18:23] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13: there are religious wars about vim vs emacs
[18:23] <eroomde> all the others are noise
[18:23] <eroomde> there is no war here, everyone knows vim is better
[18:24] <mfa298> bubbu: I dont know those devices so cant comment on them
[18:24] <mfa298> but pretty much any APRS tracker like that uses amateur radio frequencies so you need an amateur radio license to use them for transmitting
[18:25] <arko> its off!!!!
[18:25] <mfa298> eroomde: during a similar conversation a couple of days ago someone actually admited to using emacs!
[18:26] <eroomde> congrats arko!
[18:26] <eroomde> mfa298: sacre bleu!
[18:27] <bubbu> how is it all powered? Does the power source connect to the microtrak?
[18:28] <arko> woooo
[18:28] <arko> packets look good
[18:29] Action: kiwi_ is using Emacs right now
[18:29] <kiwi_> Will I be banned now?
[18:31] <eroomde> yes sorry
[18:33] <kiwi_> Everyone at university used Emacs, and it stuck with me
[18:34] <eroomde> it's quite a decision to make really
[18:35] <eroomde> i guess being ambidextrous would be best
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[18:35] <bubbu> any U.S. HAB's here?
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[18:38] <eroomde> bubbu: arko is up in the air right now with habex
[18:38] <bubbu> link?
[18:38] <arko> spacenear.us/tracker
[18:38] <wb5rmg-Alan> if it is something you can't fix with vi, it shouldn't be running ... Jus Sayn ... /;^)
[18:40] <kiwi_> I think the trick with flamewars is not avoid getting into them... I'm not commenting ;)
[18:40] <arko> wow man
[18:40] <arko> this is crazy!
[18:40] <kiwi_> But I will say as much as vi should've stayed in the 70's :P
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[18:42] <wb5rmg-Alan> Looks like all three UAH/WB8ELK balloon packages are down, within a few miles of each other.
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[18:43] <wb5rmg-Alan> That's OK, some folks say "I" should have stayed in the 70z too .!. /;^)
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[18:47] <wb5rmg-Alan> I just wish I could use Morse Code as well as I use vi : da_da_di_di_dit di-di-di-da-dah /;^)
[18:48] <eroomde> just automate it
[18:48] <eroomde> ggmrsG
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[18:57] <BrainDamage> write a plugin for vi that transatex text to morse code
[18:59] <kiwi_> ./--/.-/-.-./... -../---/./... -/..../.-/-
[19:00] <kiwi_> That's Emacs M-x morse-region ;) I guess I should stop now...
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[19:01] <mfa298> it would be more useful to have that as a translator for irssi
[19:03] <lz1dev> http://scripts.irssi.org/html/mangle.pl.html
[19:03] <wb5rmg-Alan> anyone can send morse code, even without a keyboard..
[19:05] <wb5rmg-Alan> BUT, I'm envious of the ops that can copy 30wpm, in their head... /;^)
[19:06] <wb5rmg-Alan> OK, sat here too long already, gotta do run some errands. Later folks... Thanks /;^)
[19:06] <kiwi_> Bye
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[19:16] <WB8ELK> All UAH flights launched from Huntsville Alabama have landed about 100 miles east near Calhoun Georgia. The first balloon landed near a construction worker remodeling a house. The other two are in trees. Used my Iridium modem payload to locate balloon 2.
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[19:33] <arko> wtf early burst?
[19:35] <arko> AWWW
[19:35] <arko> whattt
[19:35] <arko> it burst at 21000m
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[19:38] <chrisstubbs> arko are all those balloon yours?
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[19:42] <cuddykid> arko: what balloon?
[19:43] <cuddykid> chrisstubbs: no, only N6ARA
[19:43] <cuddykid> interesting landing site!
[19:45] <cuddykid> seems to be rather different than the rolling hills around chipping norton :P
[19:46] <Tomcat> recall being a VE a few yeras ago and seeing one candidate do Block caps at 20WPM I just admire the guy de G4MYS KE4IRF
[19:51] <kiwi_> WB8ELK: Congratulations to the flights! And recoveries...
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[20:00] <arko> ah man
[20:00] <arko> this sucks
[20:00] <arko> balloon burst early
[20:00] <arko> and now it's going to land between two mountina
[20:00] <arko> mountains*
[20:00] <Randomskk> interesting
[20:01] <Randomskk> what was your pre launch handling procedure? all wearing gloves, kept it off the ground, etc? no watches?
[20:03] <arko> yep!
[20:03] <arko> but i think we over filled
[20:04] <nbookham> gotta go
[20:04] <nbookham> bye!
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[20:04] <Randomskk> that would do it. ascent rate too high?
[20:06] <Upu> wow
[20:06] <Upu> Arko nice landing
[20:06] <Upu> *spot
[20:07] Lunar_Lander (~gd-compto@p5488B9C5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:08] <Willdude123> Evening.
[20:14] <kiwi_> hi
[20:14] <chrisstubbs> evening lunar
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> hi
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> kiwi_, thanks again for Mike's teardown of the RS-92 radiosonde
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> did you see his request at the end?
[20:15] <kiwi_> Found any useful info there?
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> where he drew the radiosonde he was given by his uncle
[20:15] <kiwi_> Yes I saw that. Someone in the comments answered. I didn't look closer at it.
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah a Kew MK IIB
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> but I almost immediately thought of an old Vaisala
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> RS12 or so
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> because Vaisala also used the windmill to rotate a contact finger inside
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> and that hooked up the TX to the sensors and two reference capacitors in turn
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> shifting the TX wavelength
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> and the british used inductors instead of caps
[20:17] <kiwi_> Odd solution but I guess it was all analogue
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> the idea behind the caps was to eliminate any mechanical transducers, any friction and so on
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> no sorry
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> the inductors
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> the paper about the invention of the Kew states that specifically
[20:18] <kiwi_> So the vertical air drag drove it
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> and the Kew had built an Ozone and an atmospheric electricity package built for it
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> they just had to think of a way to actuate the inductive transducers
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[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> and for the RS-92, there is an Ozone Box and a radioactivity sensor
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[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> you probably read the comment by Vaisala themselves saying that
[20:20] <kiwi_> That would be cool to measure.
[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> and there is a professor at reading who makes sensors to splice into the Vaisala
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> but he doesn't use the normal port I think
[20:21] <kiwi_> What sort of sensors?
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> he made his own data acquisition system and so
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> *on
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> for example he made a 3D magnetometer to measure sonde tumbling and thus turbulence
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> or a charge sensor
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> electrometer, ion counter
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> latest was a light sensor
[20:22] <kiwi_> What's the light sensor for?
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> from the paper it looks like that he wanted to see where the clouds end exactly
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> because the hygrometer can lag behind a bit if saturated
[20:23] <kiwi_> I thought of including a light sensor in Windsond.. maybe I should.
[20:24] <kiwi_> Do you have a link to all of this?
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[20:27] <Lunar_Lander> one moment
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.met.rdg.ac.uk/~swshargi/
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> if you are at uni, that helps
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> because then you probably have access to review of scientific instruments
[20:29] <LokisSword> Hi guys, if the time/date stamp is current on a balloon on the spacenearus tracker, does that indicate that someone is receiving live telemetry from it?
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[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> you mean like in the box to the right?
[20:30] <LokisSword> Yup
[20:30] <lz1dev> it should be
[20:31] <Upu> generally yes LokisSword which balloon are you referring too ?
[20:31] <Upu> some of them are using APRS import scripts at the moment
[20:31] <kiwi_> Lunar_Landers: Thanks! I'll check it out. Did you find any good temperature sensor?
[20:31] <kiwi_> Lunar_Lander, that is
[20:31] <LokisSword> BABSHAB, its about 7km from me horizontally, but altitude is low I just realised. I was just testing my RTL-SDR
[20:32] <Upu> and you can receive it ?
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> kiwi_, not yet
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> I don't know if I should ask Vaisala if they have specs
[20:32] <LokisSword> Upu - I can see a couple of very broken signals
[20:32] <Upu> oh interesting
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> because I would think they try to keep it secret as they are like the best at the WMO comparisons
[20:33] <Upu> M6HBA is uploading telemetry from it yes
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> and I think they want to stay that way
[20:34] <kiwi_> LunarLander: They probably won't tell but no harm in asking.
[20:34] <kiwi_> I have a real problem typing a simple nickname, it seems
[20:35] <kiwi_> I contacted these people: http://www.svelsensors.net/bead-thermistors.html
[20:35] <kiwi_> The specs looks promising. I hope they'll send me some samples.
[20:36] <griffonbot> @stratodean: Not your average reminder #fishfingerphotoshoot #icecreampaparazzi #ukhas http://t.co/bZiSGz3cLz [http://twitter.com/stratodean/status/318099552706101248]
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> cool kiwi_
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> well yea Vaisala was very friendly with their company history book
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> they sent me one free of charge upon asking
[20:38] <griffonbot> @VirtualRisk: RT @stratodean: Not your average reminder #fishfingerphotoshoot #icecreampaparazzi #ukhas http://t.co/bZiSGz3cLz [http://twitter.com/VirtualRisk/status/318099929878913024]
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> kiwi_, btw, when I want to adress you, I write K and I and then hit TAB twice
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:39] <kiwi_> Lunar_Lander: Ohh you're right so convenient
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:44] <kiwi_> Lunar_Lander: Let me know if you get any info off Vaisala or find other useful sensors, please. I'm at anders@kiwiembedded.com.
[20:44] <Lunar_Lander> OK, :)
[20:46] <chrisstubbs> label printer tape is a rip off
[20:46] <kiwi_> I'll contact Giles Harrison to see if they want an alternative to Vaisala
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> he is friendly
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> and should respond quickly :)
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[20:47] <kiwi_> Oh you know him?
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> OK but I got a question for everyone
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> but don't shoot me
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> PIC or AVR?
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:48] <kiwi_> I thought you were going to ask Emacs or vs...
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> kiwi_, yeah I did ask a few questions about his developments here adnt here
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> the guy at EEVBlog says PIC is better in his opinion but if you are a real engineer, you don't just look at PIC and AVR
[20:49] <kiwi_> Hard to compare, they are both big ranges to MCUs. I haven't used PIC yet but I'd say they are both good.
[20:50] <chrisstubbs> PICs are often used in products as i think they are slightly cheaper
[20:50] <chrisstubbs> however for hobby use i think AVR is far better
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:50] <kiwi_> With all Arduino stuff going on, probably
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> my question would of course be
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> is PIC available in DIP?
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> for example
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> I do know these PIC arduinos
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> ChipKIT I think
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> I think they have like 85 I/O compared to about 60 on the arduino mega
[20:51] <chrisstubbs> yeah i have a draw of PIC DIP packages
[20:51] <kiwi_> Ok but Arduino is more popular = more sample code and add-ons.
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:52] <chrisstubbs> i only ever did pic programming in flowcode
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> I think ChipKIT was an attempt to jump on the arduino train
[20:52] <LokisSword> Is there any where with some sample rrty at 50 baud as audio? Just so I can get me ear in to what I should be listening for?
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> because it looked similar
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> and I think the IDE for it allowed arduino code
[20:52] <chrisstubbs> and "chip factory"
[20:53] <kiwi_> Everyone is jumping on the Arduino bandwagon, lots of variants out there
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> all these "uino"
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> trackuino is a specific balloon board I think
[20:53] <kiwi_> That's right
[20:54] <kiwi_> Also other brands are making their own, equivalent versions
[20:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> Object movies from this afternoons flights http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/N6ARA/ and http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/WB8ELK/
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[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> what I think there is
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> if someone asks "how can I learn uCs?"
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> then no one would say "ah buy a motorola soandso" or so
[20:59] <kiwi_> What would they say?
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[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> PIC or AVR
[21:03] <kiwi_> Ah yes :)
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:04] <kiwi_> I want to get into STM32. Much more powerful, just a little more expensive. No DIP but there are breakouts.
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[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:05] <kiwi_> So that's my recommendation :) No need for 8-bits any more.
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[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[21:17] <Viss> arko: yo
[21:17] <Viss> arko: what kind of telemetry do you have on that beast?
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[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> that guy at EEVblog ranted about the PICKit3 programmer
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> and microchip made a video answer for it :D
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> where someone called D. Head gets promoted for making the 3 worse than 2
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[21:44] <eroomde> arko:
[21:44] <eroomde> how's it going?
[21:48] <griffonbot> Received email: Geoff Mather "[UKHAS] Re: Launch Annoucement - HABEX2 - 1700UTC March 30th, 2013 -
[21:57] <Willdude123> Evening.
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[22:03] <ibanezmatt13> Good evening :) Just out of curiosity, after i've gained some experience, is it possible to do a night launch. Perhaps it would show the world lit up?
[22:04] <mfa298> there have been a few early morning / evening launches
[22:04] <chrisstubbs> ibanezmatt13, yes! someone has done it. no idea who though :P
[22:04] <ibanezmatt13> reckon it's a good idea?
[22:04] <mfa298> I think the main issue is with recovery, trying to find the payload in the dark can get more tricky
[22:05] <ibanezmatt13> it can, but the plus side is, there's less chance of somebody nicking it! :)
[22:05] <ibanezmatt13> could have two cameras, a normal hd camera and a night vision camera..
[22:06] <mfa298> I think the chances of someone nicking the payload is fairly small compared to the risk of landing in a tree / water
[22:06] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, good point
[22:07] <ibanezmatt13> i downloaded a trial of the wings ide for python. I tried the infamous 'vim' but I just can't get used to it. I prefer seeing my code in colour like on Github. Vim seemed, well a bit bland to be honest
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[22:08] <mfa298> and if it lands somewhere obvious and the person wanted to take bits they'll do it whenever it lands if they see it
[22:08] <mfa298> vim does highlighting and all sorts of other useful stuff (auto indent)
[22:08] <mfa298> you just need to put the right settings in
[22:09] <ibanezmatt13> really, how do i configure it for python?
[22:09] <Randomskk> :syntax on
[22:09] <mfa298> if you're using a gui you could also try gvim which will give you more normal menus as well
[22:09] <Randomskk> you can also edit your .vimrc file
[22:09] <Randomskk> gvim isn't a bad option though I prefer straight vim :P
[22:10] <ibanezmatt13> do i get gvim from same place?
[22:10] <Randomskk> probably
[22:10] <ibanezmatt13> i'm on my windows pc currently, not pi
[22:10] <Randomskk> what operating systme are you on?
[22:10] <ibanezmatt13> win 8
[22:10] <Randomskk> vim is nice on linux
[22:10] <Randomskk> but like
[22:10] <ibanezmatt13> I'll get it for linux on the pi as well
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[22:10] <Randomskk> on windows you might get along better with notepad++
[22:10] <Randomskk> or sublime text 2 (does that run on windows? maybe not)
[22:10] <ibanezmatt13> never heard of it
[22:10] <Randomskk> (the real answer is that you should be using linux on your desktop :P)
[22:11] <ibanezmatt13> nah :)
[22:11] <mfa298> the only place I run gvim these days is windows (but then most unix boxes I use don't have a gui installed)
[22:12] <ibanezmatt13> so gvim, notepad++ and sublime text 2? which would you recomend?
[22:12] <mfa298> of those I've only used gvim so can't comment on the others.
[22:13] <mfa298> but I've had years of learning vim so the others may not gain me much
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[22:13] <ibanezmatt13> i'll try vim first
[22:14] <Louge> What is status of balloon?
[22:14] <ibanezmatt13> the vim installation has installed several different executables on my desktop. Which one shall i run?
[22:15] <mfa298> is that from the gvim installer ?
[22:15] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[22:16] <ibanezmatt13> i've opened it up but I'm not sure how to find that auto indent part?
[22:17] <mfa298> gice me a min, I'm just installing it on win8 - new laptop so I'm still finding the software i need
[22:17] <mfa298> s/gice/give/
[22:17] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[22:19] <mfa298> looks like you get three icons for it, You probably don't want the Read Only version
[22:19] <ibanezmatt13> go for the standard vim version, not sure what 'easy' does
[22:19] <mfa298> I'm not sure if there's a difference between Easy or just Gvim 7.3
[22:20] <ibanezmatt13> i just went for vim7.3
[22:20] <mfa298> that's the one I'd have suggested (I'm not sure what "Easy" gives you)
[22:20] <ibanezmatt13> easy sounds too, well, easy
[22:21] <mfa298> In terms of settings if you use commands to set things most are found as
[22:21] <mfa298> :set <command>
[22:21] <mfa298> e.g. :set autoindent
[22:21] <ibanezmatt13> is there one for setting language python
[22:21] <mfa298> the : is part of the command
[22:22] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[22:22] <mfa298> I can usually be quiet clever so if it knows it's a python file it will probably do the right thing
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[22:22] <ibanezmatt13> so if i start typing python, will it autoindent for python?
[22:22] <mfa298> if it's a new file you'll probably have to set the type in the syntax menu
[22:23] <mfa298> there's probably a command like :syntax=python or :set syntax
[22:23] <ibanezmatt13> I'll experiment with it, thanks for the help
[22:23] <ibanezmatt13> :0
[22:23] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[22:23] <mfa298> there's a huge manualfor it as well (look under help or :help)
[22:23] <ibanezmatt13> ok, :)
[22:24] <mfa298> Probably one of the biggest learning steps is learning about the various modes (command mode and edit mode being the usual ones)
[22:25] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I'll just have a go and see if i can get used to it
[22:26] <mfa298> it's something you'll never stop learning and once you're used to it you'll get annoyed if you're ever stuck with notepad / nano
[22:26] <mfa298> or the likes of visual studio
[22:27] <mfa298> (so much of the code I've done in visual studio keeps getting :wq in it)
[22:28] <ibanezmatt13> https://gist.github.com/ibanezmatt13/5275874 with this code, I have globalised certain variables. will it work without them globals or do i have to keep them?
[22:30] <mfa298> I can't help there. Python doesn't have enough { and } for me
[22:30] <ibanezmatt13> that's why i hate c. { and ;
[22:31] <ibanezmatt13> and things like void?
[22:31] <mfa298> nothing wrong with any of those.
[22:31] <ibanezmatt13> I just find python so much easier
[22:31] <fsphil> I'm with mfa298 :)
[22:32] <fsphil> although I am enjoying learning python
[22:32] <Randomskk> python <3
[22:32] <Randomskk> C is good too
[22:32] <fsphil> it's nice to write things like, if len(packet) not in [ 224, 256 ]
[22:32] <ibanezmatt13> it's easier to understand simply what a program is doing. C, in my opinion, is if you want to REALLY know what is going on, as in, every small step. I have never been able to get used to it
[22:32] <fsphil> and it just works
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[22:33] <fsphil> you can't change a character in a string though
[22:33] <fsphil> which seems an odd restriction
[22:33] <mfa298> some of that just comes down to breaking the code down to suitable blocks
[22:34] <ibanezmatt13> well, can't you convert it into a list of characters, choose the element of the list you want to change, then restring the list?
[22:34] <fsphil> yep. but that's ugly
[22:34] <mfa298> my Uni 3rd year project was in c++ and did some matrix calcs and the main function was very readable
[22:34] <ibanezmatt13> i'll probably end up learning c when i start getting more into these HAB projects
[22:36] <ibanezmatt13> well, gonna have to get off to sleep now. Thanks again for the help. Good night :)
[22:36] <fsphil> there's no i++ in python either :)
[22:36] <mfa298> even just getting used to the curly brackets and semi colons is useful as you find the same syntax in so many different things.
[22:36] <Randomskk> fsphil: fwiw, use (224,256) rather than [224,256]
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[22:36] <Randomskk> the former is a tuple not a list, which is like fixed-length and uses less memory and cpu and stuff
[22:36] <Randomskk> but
[22:36] <Randomskk> more to the point
[22:36] <Randomskk> expresses your intent better
[22:36] <Randomskk> a fixed (and ordered) group of numbers
[22:37] <kiwi_> Randomskk: Does Python optimize the list version?
[22:37] <Randomskk> maybe
[22:37] <kiwi_> Meant to say "doesn't"
[22:37] <Randomskk> not really important
[22:37] <fsphil> python's many versions of an array is a bit confusing too
[22:37] <Randomskk> I don't imagine either of those make any significant difference in runtime
[22:37] <Randomskk> it's more about your intent
[22:37] <Randomskk> fsphil: (a,b,c) is a tuple, they are immutable
[22:37] <Randomskk> [a, b, c] is a list, they are mutable
[22:38] <fsphil> is that the only difference?
[22:38] <Randomskk> that's about it until you start talking about narray or numpy or something, but they're purely numerical bits
[22:38] <Randomskk> yes, mutability is the difference between tuples and lists
[22:39] <Randomskk> (also means tuples may be used as dictionary keys)
[22:39] <kiwi_> I'd say the list expresses the intent in this case
[22:39] <Randomskk> kiwi_: the intent is immutability
[22:39] <Darkside> kiwi_: you're the windsonde person?
[22:39] <kiwi_> Darkside: yes that's me
[22:39] <Darkside> cool
[22:40] <Darkside> i had been working on something similar
[22:40] <Darkside> though the intend with mine was to have the sondes be disposable
[22:40] <kiwi_> Thanks. I never understood the point of "e" in "sonde" though
[22:40] <Darkside> i could never get the cost down
[22:40] <kiwi_> Darkside: Ah interesting! I've considered that a lot but the cost of radio and GPS is prohibitive.
[22:41] <kiwi_> What you said
[22:41] <Darkside> exactly
[22:41] <kiwi_> A non-recoverable version wouldn't save a lot on components
[22:41] <Darkside> it depends what you need
[22:41] <Darkside> in my case all they really wanted to know was where the inversion layer was
[22:41] <Darkside> (glider pilots)
[22:42] <Darkside> so their main requirements were altitude, temp and humidity
[22:42] <Darkside> wind speed and direction they could get by other means
[22:42] <Darkside> we have a vetical wind profiler radar here, which gets wind speed data all the time
[22:42] <kiwi_> Ah interesting. I've been in contact with some glider pilots. Do you know someone who might want to test?
[22:42] <Darkside> sure do
[22:42] <Darkside> however
[22:43] <Darkside> recovery sucks here
[22:43] <kiwi_> Right, some airports have some wind profiler. Would save on the GPS
[22:43] <Darkside> in some respects anyway
[22:43] <Darkside> however you replace gps cost with humidity sensor and barometer cost
[22:43] <kiwi_> Right, that's about the same cost
[22:44] <Darkside> yeah
[22:44] <Darkside> humidity is a big one though
[22:44] <Darkside> well
[22:44] <Darkside> by that i mean it is reqired
[22:44] <Darkside> as they need to know the dew poinv variation with altitude
[22:44] <Darkside> that lets them work out where clouds will form
[22:44] <kiwi_> Understood.
[22:45] <Darkside> are you using the 434mhz RFM22B?
[22:45] <kiwi_> There are very cheap capacitive hygrometers but you need something to measure capacitance. I looked a bit for that but gave up.
[22:45] <Darkside> hooking that up to usb is a bad idea
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[22:46] <kiwi_> Yes, 434 RFM22B.
[22:46] <Darkside> increases the receiver noise floor something shocking
[22:46] <kiwi_> Ah interesting.
[22:46] <Darkside> its why thw 3drobotics guys don't sell their HM-TRP 434mhz usb dongle anymore
[22:46] <Darkside> they only sell a 915MHz one
[22:46] <kiwi_> But I use a 3.3V voltage regulator, shouldn't that be alright?
[22:47] <Darkside> noise still gets through
[22:47] <Darkside> radiated i guess
[22:47] <Darkside> its why i gave up on trying to receive packets from my balloons cutdown payload with anything other than rtty
[22:48] <kiwi_> Hm. Works alright for me..
[22:48] <Darkside> the uplink is still RFM22B packets, though at a low bitrate (500baud)
[22:48] <Darkside> see if you can measure the radio noise floot on the RFM22B
[22:48] <Darkside> floor*
[22:49] <Darkside> i'd be interested in knowing that
[22:49] <kiwi_> I can measure noise level as reported by RFM22. I plan to make a spectrum analyser view for it. Others have done that.
[22:49] <Darkside> and yeah on the humidity sensors
[22:49] <Darkside> there are cheap ones
[22:50] <Darkside> but you need extra circuitry to measure the capacitance of them
[22:50] <kiwi_> Humidity, exactly
[22:50] <Darkside> i've had a play with the DHT11 digital onces
[22:50] <Darkside> their accuracy is shit
[22:50] <Darkside> 5% or something
[22:51] <kiwi_> Yes, 5% according to datasheet
[22:52] <Darkside> mm
[22:52] <Darkside> anyway, time for me to get up
[22:52] <kiwi_> Have you experimented with different speed settings?
[22:52] <Darkside> 9am :P
[22:52] <Darkside> no
[22:53] <Darkside> wait, on what
[22:53] <Darkside> rfm22b?
[22:53] <kiwi_> Hehe
[22:53] <kiwi_> Open to interpretation ;) No, RFM22B
[22:53] <Darkside> i kept it as low as i could for reliability on the uplink
[22:53] <Darkside> i never had to get much data through
[22:53] <kiwi_> Anyway, if you need to go I'd like to hear more some other time.
[22:54] <Darkside> yeah
[22:54] <kiwi_> Oh, can you get me in contact with the glider pilots?
[22:54] <Darkside> i'm in australia
[22:54] <Darkside> and i've had long discussions with them about this
[22:55] <Darkside> they basically wanted on-demand temp traces for about $50 a pop
[22:55] <Darkside> i told the they're dreaming
[22:55] <Darkside> also my local gliding club is in a crap area
[22:55] <kiwi_> That's a bit low... double the price might work.
[22:55] <Darkside> the sondes will likely land either in water, or in a military base
[22:56] <kiwi_> Recoup the cost by doing espionage
[22:56] <Darkside> on the plus side we *can* launch without a NOTAM if the payload is light enough, which yours and mine are
[22:56] <kiwi_> Right. Do you have a link to your stuff?
[22:57] <Darkside> im just talking about my normal HAB payload
[22:57] <Darkside> which is about 15g
[22:57] <Darkside> i think
[22:57] <Darkside> Upu's is smaller
[22:57] <Darkside> but they don't have humidity or decent temp sensors
[22:57] <Upu> nope
[22:57] <kiwi_> 15g total payload? That's close to my weight
[22:58] <Darkside> i think its something like that
[22:58] <Darkside> loaded pcb is about 5g or so
[22:58] <Upu> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/PCB%20Pictures/pAVA/img013.jpg
[22:58] <Darkside> then you add a lithium AAA
[22:58] <Upu> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/PCB%20Pictures/pAVA/img014.jpg
[22:59] <Darkside> but yeah, thats just gps + micro + radio
[22:59] <kiwi_> Ah right, I've seen pAVA sometime. Neat.
[23:00] <Darkside> but yeah, you need a decent, low thermal mass temp sensor
[23:00] <Darkside> and a humidity sensor thats not expensive
[23:00] <Darkside> temp sensor is easy enough
[23:00] <Darkside> but all up you're still looking at a BOM of about AUD$40 or so
[23:00] <Darkside> probably more
[23:01] <Darkside> then you factor in gas and recovery time
[23:01] <Darkside> and fuel for recovery
[23:01] <Darkside> and the costs go up
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[23:03] <chrisstubbs> blimey upu i didnt realise quite how small that thing is
[23:04] <kiwi_> I hope to get economy of scale, but yes it's hard to come down to one-time-use prices.
[23:04] <kiwi_> How well does the chip GPS antenna do? Seen any glitches?
[23:04] <Upu> the p is for pico :)
[23:04] <Upu> none at all
[23:04] <chrisstubbs> yeah i am so impressed by that chip antenna
[23:04] <chrisstubbs> 8 sats yesterday INDOORS
[23:04] <Upu> they may be slightly more susceptible to interferece
[23:05] <Upu> man spelling sorry
[23:05] <Upu> interference
[23:05] <Upu> but overall there is little difference at altitude
[23:05] <kiwi_> Ok thanks.
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> hey Darkside
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> kiwi_, I like the EEVblog guy
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[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> "One Hobbyist, one Maker, one Hacker, can change the World!"
[23:07] <kiwi_> Lunar_Lander: I know :) Just get used to the voice.
[23:07] <Upu> is that the guy witht he very annoying squeeky voice ?
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:07] <eroomde> i like his identical intonation for every sentence
[23:07] <kiwi_> People tell him he's annoying but he doesn't care
[23:07] <eroomde> like kim kardashian
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> when I think of it
[23:08] <Darkside> he's australian
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> how was it back theN?=
[23:08] <Darkside> we don't give a crap
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> *then
[23:08] <kiwi_> Oh, another EE engineer I suppse ;)
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[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> Bill Brown flew the first camera HAB
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> but the first real amateur HAB was in Finland
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> back in 1967
[23:09] <eroomde> would someone not in the UK fancy downloading and then sharing this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3odtwGRpOd0
[23:09] <eroomde> blocked in the UK and would like a downloaded copy anyway
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, it's not worth it
[23:10] <Darkside> crap quality
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> there is a message at the start
[23:10] <Darkside> and 10 min of black
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> it says that the first 10 minutes have no video signal
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:10] <eroomde> oh
[23:10] <eroomde> well, similar somewhere else?
[23:11] <Upu> I can get it eroomde
[23:11] <eroomde> that would be splendid
[23:11] <eroomde> missed it on iplayer
[23:11] <Upu> pm
[23:12] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside, I like Dave
[23:12] <Lunar_Lander> and I don't mind his voice :)
[23:12] <number10> oops just deleted that
[23:12] <Lunar_Lander> actually I like how he made Microchip to make an answer video concerning the PickIt3
[23:13] <kiwi_> He was ruthless
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> "We got these old LEDs, they'd save about 1 penny per unit but they could not work"
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> "Are you kidding me? We won't lose that 1 penny, so use these LEDs"
[23:16] <Spoz> morning
[23:17] <kiwi_> evening..
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> actually
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> do you still get these 200-in-1 experiment boxes?
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> in germany, you got Kosmos
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> and the Kosmos electro boxes are like annoying
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> you get a cool experiment panel sort of and like a knob with a potentiometer and stuff
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> but like the resistors are supposed to go into a storage row at the top
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> now you can open up the panel for more storage and the battery box
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> but then the resistors are almost prone to fall out
[23:20] <chrisstubbs> yeah maplin used to do a simalar thing in the UK
[23:20] <chrisstubbs> with spring terminals for all the components
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> I think it is the same
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> Kosmos had these metal clamps with four holes in each
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> and they were like arranged that a transistor would plug into the corners of four of these
[23:21] <chrisstubbs> i still have my one of these: http://amzn.to/ZumO6T
[23:22] <chrisstubbs> hours of fun connecting wires together to build a morse transmitter with about 3ft range :P
[23:22] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[23:22] <Lunar_Lander> yeah that is almost like the kit that he showed
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> I once got a detector radio kit from Kosmost
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> -t
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> and I was like so stupid
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> there was a cardboard roll and the coil was wound around it and secured by two red tape strips
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> I carefully removed the tape without consulting the manual
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> and the coil was screwed up
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[23:24] <chrisstubbs> aha
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[23:24] <chrisstubbs> did the kit by any chance use a strip of terminal block for all the connections?
[23:24] <chrisstubbs> and sat is a horrible orange vacuum formed base
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> like screw terminal?
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> no
[23:25] <chrisstubbs> yeah
[23:25] <chrisstubbs> oh my that was a bad project, got a transistor radio kit and guess what... no transistors in the box!
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[23:25] <chrisstubbs> capacitors missing too
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> Kosmos went nuts now though
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> they made a science box for girls
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> and they themed it around unicorns or shit like that
[23:26] <chrisstubbs> "science box" makes me think of schrodingers cat
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:26] <chrisstubbs> girls would love that
[23:27] <Lunar_Lander> XD yeah glados did too
[23:27] <Lunar_Lander> if you played Portal 2
[23:27] <chrisstubbs> "yayyy kitty" / "AHHHH! dead kitty"
[23:27] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:27] <fsphil> and it's their fault for looking
[23:27] <fsphil> the cat was fine until then, maybe
[23:29] <chrisstubbs> :O http://glados.biringa.com/ scroll to the bottom and see how it works
[23:29] <chrisstubbs> also check out the wait time!
[23:30] <Lunar_Lander> ROFL!
[23:30] <Lunar_Lander> well
[23:30] <chrisstubbs> oh man, i feel sorry for the guy that coded this.
[23:30] <Lunar_Lander> at Lake Constace at the HAM RADIO fair they use to fly a speaking HAB
[23:31] <chrisstubbs> haha cool
[23:31] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. I think it composes spoken messages like "Altitude: Eightthousand Sevenhundred Twenty-Six meters"
[23:31] <Lunar_Lander> that seems to be complex enoughg
[23:31] <Lunar_Lander> -g
[23:32] <Lunar_Lander> yeah look how people like use services like that
[23:32] <chrisstubbs> sounds like a job for the pi
[23:32] <Lunar_Lander> one guy had "hello alex" spoken
[23:32] <Lunar_Lander> in the recent messages list
[23:33] <Lunar_Lander> man
[23:33] <Lunar_Lander> if I would like stand in line for 10 months
[23:33] <Lunar_Lander> and then I had like one wish or some crap like that
[23:33] <chrisstubbs> im doing it
[23:33] <Lunar_Lander> I wouldn't waste it
[23:33] <chrisstubbs> it will be a nice curprise
[23:33] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:37] <chrisstubbs> What have you been up to today lunar?
[23:38] <Lunar_Lander> nothing much, went to town
[23:38] <Lunar_Lander> had to buy some stuff for easter
[23:38] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. like food
[23:38] <Lunar_Lander> and you?
[23:38] <fsphil> chocolate?
[23:39] <chrisstubbs> schokolade
[23:39] <chrisstubbs> pretty much the only thing i remember from german class at school
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[23:40] <Lunar_Lander> yeah that too
[23:40] <Lunar_Lander> and soup
[23:41] <chrisstubbs> well i went out and got a big set of plastic drawers to keep my components in http://flic.kr/p/e7nWKd http://flic.kr/p/e7hiox
[23:41] <chrisstubbs> hence the label printer running out of tape
[23:41] <fsphil> I've the exact same set chrisstubbs
[23:42] <chrisstubbs> maplin?
[23:42] <fsphil> cpc, though identical
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander> is your printer from Brother also?
[23:42] <chrisstubbs> ahh good old CPC
[23:42] <chrisstubbs> yeah p-touch 65
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:43] <chrisstubbs> i was going to get 2 but they only had 1 in stock. but i think 1 is enough for now
[23:43] <chrisstubbs> cheeky robot arm in the background
[23:43] <fsphil> did spot that
[23:43] <fsphil> it's near the parts drawer -- you can guess my first thought
[23:43] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:43] <Lunar_Lander> Canadarm Mini
[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> https://secure.flickr.com/photos/68579973@N02/8601080536/in/photostream/
[23:44] <chrisstubbs> domlin wrote a software hook for that a while ago in vb.NET and i set it up with the Wiimote library
[23:44] <fsphil> Belgiumarm?
[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> that reminds me of iHAB-2 by W0OTM
[23:44] <chrisstubbs> oh my it was awful
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[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> he had like a PCB which was just copper
[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> and he said it was called Manhattan style or so
[23:45] <fsphil> yea a popular method in the ham world
[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, why belgium?
[23:45] <fsphil> it looks really ugly
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[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> because it is black and yellow?
[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:45] <fsphil> fsphil: smaller than Canada, has some french
[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> I think on TV they still use videotapes
[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> and the tapes are loaded by robot arms of sorts also
[23:46] <chrisstubbs> the idea of the robotic parts bin has got my brain going
[23:46] <chrisstubbs> thanks fsphil
[23:46] <fsphil> np :)
[23:46] <chrisstubbs> going to need a rasberry pi, wifi card, database of components...
[23:47] <chrisstubbs> select the component from the web browser and it pulls the draw out and empties it onto the floor
[23:47] <fsphil> I need to do something similar. I've no idea what's in half the drawers here, and often end up buying more of something I might already have 100 of
[23:47] <chrisstubbs> yeah thats exactly my reason
[23:47] <chrisstubbs> i had a draw labeled "resistors" before
[23:47] <chrisstubbs> but now each value has its own section
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[23:48] <chrisstubbs> i didnt realise how many breadboards I had until today. Whenever i build a project and dont want to take it apart i just buy a new one :P
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[23:48] <fsphil> hehe, I've only two
[23:49] <kiwi_> That's the problem with hardware. Software doesn't work like that.
[23:49] <bubbu> hey guys, Q: I'm having difficulty understanding how much helium goes in a balloon to get to altitude with a designated weight for payload. Advice?
[23:49] <fsphil> have you been using the calculator bubbu?
[23:49] <mattbrejza> theres a calculator on habhub.org
[23:49] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/calc/
[23:50] <bubbu> yes, based on the calculation my balloon needs 124.4 ft3 of helium. How do you calcuate how much free lift you need?
[23:50] <Randomskk> that calculator
[23:51] <Randomskk> also tells you free lift
[23:51] <bubbu> neck lift - paylod?
[23:51] <bubbu> payload*
[23:51] <Randomskk> yea I guess
[23:51] <Randomskk> neck lift tends to be more useful
[23:51] <Randomskk> when filling
[23:51] <bubbu> what is neck lift? lift of payload and free lift?
[23:51] <Randomskk> neck lift is the amount of lift in the balloon basically
[23:52] <Randomskk> without a payload
[23:52] <Randomskk> it's what you measure as the lift while filling
[23:52] <bubbu> okay, so essentially my free lift is neck lift subtracted from gross?
[23:53] <Randomskk> uhm
[23:53] <Randomskk> what do you mean by free lift
[23:53] <bubbu> free lift = lift required to take balloon up to altitude?
[23:53] <Randomskk> that's not really a helpful definition here
[23:53] <bubbu> so my definition is wrong
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[23:53] <bubbu> so what exactly is free lift
[23:53] <Randomskk> not sure what your definition is
[23:54] <Randomskk> basically
[23:54] <Randomskk> give that calculator your payload mass and balloon size, plus a target altitude or ascent rate
[23:54] <Randomskk> it will tell you the quantity of helium and the neck lift
[23:54] <Randomskk> the neck lift is the amount of lift you measure at the neck of the balloon while filling
[23:54] <bubbu> without payload
[23:54] <Randomskk> so it's the total lift minus the weight of the balloon
[23:54] <Randomskk> well yea, you don't attach the payload until after filling
[23:55] <bubbu> ok
[23:55] <Randomskk> then the payload weight uses up some of that neck lift, and what's left (neck lift - payload weight) gives you what we typically call the free lift
[23:55] <Randomskk> which is the amount of lift available to loft the balloon, and needs to be >0 for the balloon to go up
[23:55] <Randomskk> but isn't really a very useful figure compared to neck lift and ascent rate
[23:56] <bubbu> what isn't a useful figure?
[23:56] <chrisstubbs> Lunar_Lander, yeah its home etched. Looks a bit tidier covered in foam http://flic.kr/p/e7o7wA
[23:56] <bubbu> in what cases does a balloon become a "floater"
[23:58] <chrisstubbs> in foil balloons they reach a limit where they do not stretch anymore, and the gas density inside = gas density outside
[23:58] <chrisstubbs> and they float there
[23:59] <Lunar_Lander> chrisstubbs, cool!
[00:00] --- Sun Mar 31 2013