highaltitude.log.20130327

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[02:55] Nick change: azend_ -> azend
[02:56] <KT5TK_QRL> ping nigelvh
[03:03] <heathkid> anyone going to Dayton this year that wants to help on a high-profile HAB launch?
[03:04] <heathkid> APRS of course here in the US
[03:04] <heathkid> trying to get RTTY and CW as well... but not as easy as I though
[03:04] <heathkid> thought
[03:04] <heathkid> on the same board
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[03:41] <bubbu> I need help!
[03:42] <bubbu> near space photography ... Toronto, ON
[03:56] <KT5TK_QRL> What kind of help?
[04:04] <bubbu> mostly with regulations...
[04:04] <bubbu> and tracking of the balloon ...
[04:04] <bubbu> want to know successful methods for tracking .. and ways "around" regulations ..
[04:05] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: is Canadian
[04:09] <bubbu> thanks
[04:09] <bubbu> re: tracking, advice?
[04:10] <JamieCH> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide has a lot of advice on it
[04:10] <JamieCH> Most people here use a radiometrix ntx2 on the balloon, with one of the listed transcievers on the ground
[04:11] <KT5TK_QRL> Are you familiar with APRS trackers?
[04:11] <JamieCH> But that's largely because the UK is limited to 10mw transmitting power from the air on unlicensed bands (amateur radio licenses can't be used from the air), so you may find different Canadian regulations offer a better solution
[04:12] <KT5TK_QRL> In the US and Canada most often APRS is used for tracking balloons
[04:13] <KT5TK_QRL> If you have a HAM license that's the way to go
[04:13] <bubbu> I have a Radio Operator's License, will that do?
[04:13] <KT5TK_QRL> You mean you have an Amateur callsign?
[04:14] <bubbu> not familar with APRS, but I will learn
[04:14] <bubbu> I'm a pilot, I have a Ministry of Transport approved Radio Operator's License
[04:14] <KT5TK_QRL> OK, that's not what you need for APRS
[04:14] <bubbu> we are sending a balloon up with a class I teach in June sometime, just a little confused about tracking.
[04:15] <KT5TK_QRL> Then you probably need to use some license free transmitter
[04:15] <KT5TK_QRL> Do you know a Ham who can help you?
[04:16] <bubbu> neg, need to contact someone in Ontario ,Canada who has done it in accordance with Ministry of Transport regs
[04:17] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes, well you can always use license free trackers, but you'll not have many listeners that can help you tracking
[04:17] <KT5TK_QRL> Essentially you'll be the only person who's tracking it
[04:17] <bubbu> what do you recommend that's cost effectice?
[04:17] <bubbu> effective*
[04:17] <bubbu> but easy to track?
[04:18] <KT5TK_QRL> Go check out the ukhas tracking guide ^
[04:18] <KT5TK_QRL> In the UK everybody needs license free transmitters
[04:19] <KT5TK_QRL> So that's the way for you to go then
[04:19] <KT5TK_QRL> One of the UK guys sells a license free tracker transmitter
[04:20] <KT5TK_QRL> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2 This is a simplistic approach to get things going
[04:21] <KT5TK_QRL> You need a microcontroller (e.g. Arduino)
[04:21] <KT5TK_QRL> and a transmitter (e.g. a NTX2 module)
[04:22] <KT5TK_QRL> On the receive side you need a SSB receiver
[04:24] <bubbu> pros and cons of android open tracker software
[04:25] <KT5TK_QRL> These are the license free frequencies that you can use without a license: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISM_band
[04:25] <KT5TK_QRL> You don't want a cellphone as tracking transmitter
[04:25] <KT5TK_QRL> because it won't fork above 20000 ft
[04:26] <KT5TK_QRL> won't work
[04:26] <bubbu> is there any way we can skype\
[04:27] <KT5TK_QRL> yes, but on this irc there may be more people that can help you
[04:27] <bubbu> i'll be honest i'm new to al this, all the help I can get the better
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[04:28] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes, stay on this channel. Here are many experienced guys who can help you around the clock
[04:28] <bubbu> any toronto, canadians
[04:28] <KT5TK_QRL> when are you planning to launch?
[04:29] <bubbu> mid june, enough time?
[04:29] <KT5TK_QRL> I'm pretty sure yes, but maybe just not at the moment
[04:29] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes, that time frame should work
[04:30] <KT5TK_QRL> Again, start to study the UKHAS pages.
[04:30] <KT5TK_QRL> Get an arduino and start playing with it
[04:30] <KT5TK_QRL> first blink some LEDs
[04:31] <KT5TK_QRL> Then connect a transmitter
[04:31] <KT5TK_QRL> and finally a special high altitude GPS
[04:31] <bubbu> rgr
[04:31] <KT5TK_QRL> Note that most GPS receivers only work up to 60,000 ft
[04:32] <KT5TK_QRL> So you need a special one.
[04:32] <KT5TK_QRL> But you'll find that in the UKHAS wiki
[04:32] <bubbu> i'll check it out thanks! :)
[04:33] <KT5TK_QRL> Come back whenever you have questions.
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[04:34] <bubbu> thanks :) any recommendation for someone specfically in canada
[04:34] <bubbu> specificallt
[04:36] <KT5TK_QRL> Just trying to find some info about license free frequencies in Canada
[04:37] <bubbu> thanks so much :)
[04:45] <KT5TK_QRL> Note that in IARU Region 2 (where Canada belongs to) 433.050 MHz .. 434.790 MHz may not be allowed. Therefore you'll need to use for example 902.000 MHz ... 928.000 MHz.
[04:45] <KT5TK_QRL> Instead of a NTX2 module you could use a TX3H-914 module
[04:45] <KT5TK_QRL> http://www.lemosint.com/radiometrix/radiometrix_details.php?itemID=204
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[05:12] <KT5TK_QRL> bubu has left, but just for the record the Canadian regulations: http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01054.html
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[05:59] <arko> how cow
[05:59] <arko> our hab is waayyyy underweight
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[06:14] <arko> holy cow*
[06:33] <eroomde> fly some experimental lead
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[06:44] <arko> hehe
[06:45] <arko> not sure what to add
[06:45] <arko> after so much testing
[06:56] <eroomde> more batts?
[06:56] <eroomde> camera?
[06:56] <eroomde> smoke flare?
[06:56] <eroomde> mysterious smoking box lands in Edwards airforce base
[07:00] <daveake> Use some Dreamliner batteries; that should achieve most of those aims
[07:02] <kokey> so where did buzz end up yesterday?
[07:02] <daveake> On the ground next to a felled tree
[07:02] <kokey> nice one
[07:03] <daveake> Not my doing :-). This was Ali's (M0PSI) flight. I just helped at the launch and supplied Buzz (one of Upu's boards with my s/w) as a backup tracker
[07:03] <kokey> especially considering all the trees around
[07:18] <arko> eroomde: im thinking about it
[07:18] <arko> no flares though :P
[07:18] <arko> last thing i need is to be in federal jail
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[07:25] <arko> man im tired
[07:25] <arko> working on hab all day
[07:25] <arko> excited and concerned
[07:26] <arko> just because i can't stop worrying until it launches
[07:27] <daveake> The worrying doesn't stop then :p
[07:27] <eroomde> turn to drink
[07:28] <arko> haha
[07:28] <arko> we were joking of taking shots when we took the backup beacon measurements
[07:29] <arko> we have a cherping beacon
[07:29] <arko> directional antennas and stuff
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[07:31] <M0TVU> Good morning
[07:32] <M0TVU> I have more questions about CRC if anyone canhelp
[07:33] <eroomde> thar be a saying on the high seas of IRC
[07:33] <eroomde> don't ask to ask, just ask
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[07:35] <fsphil> oh it's morning. wonderful
[07:35] <M0TVU> lol
[07:35] <M0TVU> Snowinghere
[07:35] <M0TVU> That's a new word now
[07:36] <M0TVU> fsphil - Do you know the inner working of how crc is calculated?
[07:39] <fsphil> I just used that example from avr-libc posted yesterday
[07:40] <fsphil> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__util__crc.html#gaca726c22a1900f9bad52594c8846115f
[07:41] <M0TVU> Oh ok. I need to write my own function to do it. I have seen the wikki and it's making a lot of sense now. I can't see anywhere whay the poly-thingy is. This is sthe number that you XOR against i believe
[07:42] <eroomde> binary operations written as polynomials always seemed a bit silly to me
[07:42] <eroomde> takes something quite simple and encodes in non-obviously in mathematical notation
[07:42] <UpuWork> morning
[07:42] <eroomde> i find a lot of maths to be like that
[07:43] <eroomde> right gtg
[07:44] <M0TVU> brb loo
[07:44] <arko> i got like 350g left on this hab
[07:44] <arko> ship me something before friday and i can fly it
[07:45] <x-f> how come you have the minimum weight limit for your HAB?
[07:46] <arko> target weight
[07:47] <arko> just because all the calculations have been done assuming that
[07:49] <costyn> arko: what other calculations do you have except for burst altitude?
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[07:49] <arko> rate of decent
[07:50] <arko> with parachute etc
[07:50] <arko> the hourly is running this
[07:50] <arko> with 3 different instances
[07:50] <costyn> it's funny, most people end up with a heavier payload than initially expected, but you have it the other way around :)
[07:50] <costyn> ah
[07:50] <arko> :) propa engineering
[07:50] <arko> i gave all the folks strict weight restrictions
[07:50] <arko> kept track of mass
[07:50] <arko> and the mind set
[07:51] <costyn> so what is your total payload weight so far?
[07:51] <arko> 3.14 pounds
[07:51] <arko> best weight ever
[07:51] <costyn> what's that in rest of the world measurement?
[07:52] <daveake> enormous :p
[07:52] <costyn> ok ok :)
[07:52] <arko> 1424g
[07:52] <arko> sorry, i use grams too
[07:52] <costyn> that's quite weighty yes
[07:52] <arko> but i like the number
[07:52] <arko> i always think of Upu's picture
[07:52] <arko> that PC with motherboards and heatsinks
[07:52] <daveake> that's unhealthy
[07:52] <daveake> ah
[07:52] <arko> american flag
[07:52] <arko> love it
[07:53] <costyn> 'murica!
[07:53] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/Funny/pico.jpg
[07:53] <arko> <3 Upu
[07:53] <costyn> awesome
[07:53] <arko> hahaha
[07:53] <arko> heater
[07:53] <costyn> I had forgotten about that
[07:53] <daveake> and the video of it landing? :)
[07:54] <UpuWork> hang on
[07:54] <UpuWork> http://i.imgur.com/36s5f.gif
[07:54] <costyn> LOL!
[07:54] <arko> hahahaha
[07:54] <daveake> love seeing that one :)
[07:55] <arko> that's amazing
[07:55] <UpuWork> this isn't OT
[07:55] <UpuWork> but I just found this photo shop my engineers did of my dog :
[07:55] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/Funny/SuperCharlie.jpg
[07:55] <arko> wat
[07:55] <costyn> nice
[07:56] <arko> ok, i ned to get home to sleep
[07:56] <UpuWork> night
[07:56] <arko> probably going to need coffee
[07:56] <costyn> arko: nighty night
[07:56] <arko> night guys
[07:56] <arko> :)
[07:56] <kokey> he's got a bit of a sin city face
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[08:05] <Maxell> UpuWork: lol, overweight
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[08:09] <costyn> Maxell: we've had some laughs in the past where teams from the USA have put massive payloads under HABs just for an APRS tracker
[08:10] <Maxell> But USA is huge. You *must*a APRS there, I guess.
[08:11] <costyn> Maxell: yep, but you can make an APRS tracker within 100g. Upu made one
[08:11] <Maxell> Everything is bigger in EMERICA
[08:12] <UpuWork> haha
[08:12] <UpuWork> it was 15g
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[08:12] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/ATLAS-PAVA/IMG_1069.JPG
[08:12] <UpuWork> 16.34g
[08:13] <costyn> although this one seems sensible, if a crazy price http://www.bigredbee.com/zc139/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=182
[08:13] <UpuWork> wow
[08:13] <UpuWork> I'll sell you 2 PAVA for that :)
[08:14] <costyn> what... why wouldyou need up to 250kft?
[08:14] <costyn> 16mw version suitable for tracking up to 60,000' AGL, 100mw version suitable for tracking up to 250,000' AGL.
[08:14] <UpuWork> not pointing out the NEO-6 maxes at 160k feet
[08:15] <costyn> :)
[08:15] <costyn> all LIES then :)
[08:15] <costyn> 250kft is 76 km... wut
[08:15] <Maxell> http://www.bigredbee.com/zc139/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=192&zenid=opaurg260t561ubtsd3l0or7a3
[08:15] <costyn> Maxell: wtf
[08:15] <UpuWork> lol
[08:16] <UpuWork> its snowing outside and Radio 6 are playing Summer Time..
[08:18] <Maxell> Oh, about the coin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_coin_%28United_States%29
[08:18] <daveake> Smooth 70's are playing "I Don't Like Mondays"
[08:18] <daveake> too late guys
[08:19] <daveake> We had snow in June in 1975
[08:19] <gonzo_> any updates on a launch today?
[08:19] <fsphil> The sun is out there this-morning, and it's not sub-zero temperatures
[08:19] <fsphil> could it be .... spring?
[08:20] <Willdude123> No, it can't be. I need to get a tracker before Dave's launch, which will be whenever spring comes.
[08:21] <mfa298> No doubt for sharp/blast we'll hear at the absolute last minute if we're lucky
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[08:22] <fsphil> that the flight trying to use .net?
[08:22] <mfa298> yep
[08:22] <Maxell> .net?
[08:22] <mfa298> gadgeteer board
[08:22] <number10> dont worry Willdude123 there are launches all the time (most of them Daves) so if you miss one
[08:22] <Maxell> ah, yeah that prototype thing
[08:23] <mfa298> probably even bigger/heavier than the bigredbee
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[08:24] <mfa298> although last time they just flew the backup payload and a test payload (that was going to piggy back) as they couldn't make the gadgeteer work
[08:24] Nick change: Morseman_ -> Morseman
[08:27] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Launch announcement: WASP-1, UK, 26th March"
[08:27] <fsphil> Where they sponsored by MS? I could imagine there would be pressure to fly it if they where
[08:27] <mfa298> quite possibly
[08:29] <fsphil> ah so that's where the tie ended up
[08:30] <daveake> MS sponsor their department AIUI
[08:37] <UpuWork> morning Willdude123
[08:37] <UpuWork> what did the parents say ?
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[08:43] <eroomde> back
[08:43] <eroomde> sack and crack
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[08:43] <eroomde> needless.
[08:44] <eroomde> ask the guys at the cowgirl creamery in SF what they would recommend to fly
[08:44] <eroomde> as a cheese
[08:44] <eroomde> they might be up for that kind of thing
[08:44] <eroomde> i had about an hour long chat at the counter with the chap there
[08:44] <eroomde> oh sorry that was all meant to be for arko in another window
[08:44] <eroomde> re: flying cheese
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[08:44] <eroomde> arko: ^
[08:45] <fsphil> still on-topic I guess
[08:46] <eroomde> it's all about exploring the milky whey, right?
[08:46] <fsphil> this is starting to grate
[08:47] <eroomde> it's rennet's course
[08:47] <mfa298> good idea as long as the flight doesn't go sour
[08:48] <fsphil> you'd be crackers to fly cheese on a balloon
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[08:49] <eroomde> couldn't a-gruyere more
[08:49] <WillDuckworth> what have i stumbled into?!
[08:50] <costyn> flying cheese would surely be gouda for HAB promotion
[08:50] <number10> this is all whey above me
[08:50] <daveake> You need to fly caerphilly
[08:51] <eroomde> still, ton's landing in the middle of nowhere is better than a light payload landing in a populated area
[08:51] <costyn> just have to wait for the right cheddar, without too much snow and such
[08:51] <eroomde> [ouch]
[08:57] <costyn> was just looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cheeses... now I'm hungry
[08:58] <costyn> unbelievable that all these cheeses are different from eachother
[08:58] <eroomde> yes, it's wonderful
[08:59] <eroomde> wine and cheese have enough variation and history that they can be a legitimate hobby
[08:59] <eroomde> aswell as delicious
[09:01] <costyn> yes, quite
[09:04] <Brace> mmmm
[09:04] <Brace> port and a good cheese board
[09:05] <eroomde> and maybe conversation
[09:05] <eroomde> a distant 3rd
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[09:06] <M0TVU> I'm back and could do with some CRC help still
[09:06] <gonzo_> cue, john cleese
[09:06] <Maxell> CRC? like checksum?
[09:07] <M0TVU> yuuup
[09:07] <gonzo_> I was referimng to lists of cheeses!
[09:09] <number10> M0TVU: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computation_of_CRC
[09:10] <M0TVU> done all that to death - I can't get my equation to work out. I'm not sure I have the correct polynomial
[09:10] <Randomskk> hi M0TVU
[09:10] <Randomskk> doing it yourself with your own code?
[09:10] <M0TVU> Yes
[09:10] <Randomskk> got that code anywhere?
[09:11] <Randomskk> alternatively
[09:11] <M0TVU> er.... yes written on a piece of paper next to me
[09:11] <Randomskk> what polynomial, what initial value?
[09:11] <M0TVU> :-)
[09:11] <M0TVU> That is the question?
[09:11] <Randomskk> you should be using 0x11021 as the polynomial and 0xFFFF as the starting value
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[09:12] <jonsowman> I assume you meant 0x1021 ?
[09:12] <Randomskk> you assume wrong
[09:12] <jonsowman> interesting
[09:12] <Randomskk> it is curious
[09:12] <M0TVU> 1021 doesn't work that's what I just ran - i'll try 11021
[09:13] <M0TVU> is that to make it odd -
[09:13] <M0TVU> because as you run through 1021 it never zero's the bits
[09:13] <Randomskk> I don't think any common crc algorithms use 0x1021
[09:13] <Randomskk> give it a go. and you're starting with 0xffff?
[09:13] <M0TVU> yes
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[09:13] <Randomskk> out of interest what platform are you on? for AVRs this is all nicely done in avr-libc
[09:14] <M0TVU> Pic micro
[09:14] <Randomskk> ah okay
[09:14] <M0TVU> It's more fun .... - lol
[09:14] <number10> my one does - I must be odd :(
[09:14] <number10> also my one is on a pic so ... well odd
[09:14] <Randomskk> number10: curious
[09:14] <Randomskk> this is probably down to your definition of the polynomial and how it gets used
[09:15] <number10> yes
[09:15] <M0TVU> Can I use the google group to post code etc?
[09:15] <Randomskk> M0TVU: you shouldn't be using the bit-reversed form of crc16 either
[09:15] <Randomskk> M0TVU: you could, but I'd use www.pastie.org
[09:16] <number10> the code fragment in the wiki article uses 1021
[09:16] <Randomskk> number10: I was looking for that fragment, where is it?
[09:16] <eroomde> all the worlds knowledge of electronics is spread randomly among the applications section for analog devices op-amp datasheets
[09:16] <Randomskk> aha
[09:16] <eroomde> sections of*
[09:16] <Randomskk> I knew I'd done this myself before
[09:16] <Randomskk> https://github.com/adamgreig/wombat/blob/master/code/sentence.c
[09:16] <Randomskk> see the function crc_update at the top
[09:17] <Randomskk> it's just plain C
[09:17] <number10> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computation_of_CRC section // x^16+x^12+x^5+1 = (1) 0001 0000 0010 0001 = 0x1021
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[09:17] <Randomskk> number10: note the (1) at the start
[09:17] <number10> oh yes - only quicly glanced
[09:17] <Randomskk> so e.g. in my code, I check for the leading 1 in the if clause and use that to decide whether to XOR it or not
[09:18] <Randomskk> M0TVU: but anyway yea, https://github.com/adamgreig/wombat/blob/master/code/sentence.c#L9-L30 is a working C implementation that might clear it up
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[09:18] <number10> thats about what I do
[09:18] <costyn> Randomskk: faboulous http://goo.gl/ku1QY
[09:19] <Randomskk> costyn: I was looking directly into a solar eclipse ;)
[09:19] <costyn> sure
[09:19] <costyn> :P
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[09:19] <Randomskk> it had just started
[09:19] <Randomskk> lol
[09:19] <eroomde> someone has put a toiroid of cloth around your neck
[09:19] <Randomskk> why else would I be wearing three pairs of sunglasses
[09:20] <Randomskk> eroomde: mostly that was so I could quickly cover my mouth and nose
[09:20] <eroomde> you can't trust those eclipses
[09:20] <Randomskk> a combination of dust, dirt, sand and pleasant smells
[09:22] <Randomskk> http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEmono/TSE2009/TSE2009iau/TSE2009-fig01.GIF
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[09:23] <gonzo_> M0TVU, I have a simple C routine for rthe CRC on my PIC code. Will digi it our
[09:24] <gonzo_> out
[09:24] <costyn> Randomskk: this is the only thing that came to mind http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0sxosvTpy1rqfhi2o1_400.gif
[09:24] <Randomskk> costyn: I can only aspire to that level of cool
[09:24] <costyn> :)
[09:25] <_markh_> Morning all, I'm just finishing off my flight s/w. Is there a 'norm' for how often I should TX my data or should I just loop from one TX to the next?
[09:25] <costyn> _markh_: pretty much
[09:26] <costyn> _markh_: you can leave a pause of a second or two between strings, but not strictly necessary
[09:27] <gonzo_> M0TVU, http://pastebin.com/QBGj3H7k
[09:27] <_markh_> OK, great. I was wondering also, we have a few instrumentswe 3want to use. Can I have two different sentences - and how do I identify them to habhub?
[09:28] <Randomskk> yes - the genpayload wizard lets you Just Do That
[09:28] <Randomskk> http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload/
[09:28] <HixWork> speaking of habitat, is there a list of payload callsigns to see what is taken / not taken
[09:29] <_markh_> I looked there, but as I hadnt yet defined my flight data I coouldn;t use the wizard to see what it could do :)
[09:29] <number10> you can see a lot of them in fldigi -config all payloads
[09:29] <costyn> is there a reason old payload docs are still in the db? it's getting cluttered fast
[09:29] <HixWork> ah oki number10
[09:29] <HixWork> ta
[09:30] <costyn> it would be nice to have an archive if it's necessary to have the old ones available. I'm assuming mostly one is interested in the last version of their payload doc
[09:30] <Randomskk> costyn: there is a reason, but we do also have plans to archive/end-of-life old versions of each payload
[09:30] <costyn> Randomskk: ok good
[09:31] <Randomskk> the archive thing in its entirety is a piece of work though, so it'l probably not happen until this summer vacation at best. on the plus side, the flight system means it's mostly only a problem when you're testing your own payload
[09:31] <_markh_> Where do folk buy their helium from? And is there a reason (technical/commercial) why they don't use hydrogen?
[09:31] <Randomskk> some people do use hydrogen
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[09:31] <Randomskk> there is some contention as to how safe it is
[09:31] <Randomskk> and some people have legal reasons for not being able to use it
[09:32] <HixWork> _markh_, http://balloonhelium.co.uk/main/pricing
[09:32] <_markh_> Randomskk: To do with storage?
[09:32] <M0TVU> Randomskk can I send you an email please?
[09:32] <_markh_> HixWork: Thanks
[09:33] <Randomskk> M0TVU: you may, but if it's just source code I'd put it on pastie.org and link to it here
[09:33] <Randomskk> (adam@adamgreig.com though)
[09:33] <fsphil> to do with it igniting
[09:33] <costyn> _markh_: basically all safety aspects of hydrogen and it's flammability/explosiveness
[09:33] <M0TVU> It's an excel spreadshet
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[09:33] <M0TVU> showing the bit patterns
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[09:33] <Randomskk> interesting. go for it, I'll see what help I can be
[09:34] <M0TVU> Ok thanks
[09:34] <Randomskk> it's been a while since I thought much about crc at a bit level though
[09:34] <costyn> HixWork: those helium prices are so reasonable.
[09:34] <fsphil> this is why I use C :)
[09:34] <HixWork> seem to be costyn
[09:35] <costyn> HixWork: I paid 130 GBP for my 3 m^2 (incl reg hire) and the guy wanted the cylinder back a few days later. so no 28 days hire
[09:35] <costyn> HixWork: and I had to pick it up and bring it back myself too
[09:37] <HixWork> bummer.
[09:37] <HixWork> I've got a free supply ;p
[09:39] <_markh_> I like the idea of hydrogen, as it's not a finite resource. I wonder if we can make enough of our own by electroysis... :)
[09:39] <M0TVU> email on it's way randomskk
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[09:43] <Randomskk> M0TVU: got it
[09:43] <Randomskk> but, what's the purpose of the spreadsheet? I assume you're implementing this in code?
[09:45] <Randomskk> M0TVU: certainly 0x7899 is correct for 'M'
[09:45] <Randomskk> I'm not clear that you're using 0xFFFF as the start value for your CRC in the spreadsheet
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[09:45] <costyn> _markh_: nope, we've done the calculations; electrolysis DIY is silly
[09:46] <costyn> _markh_: far to costly and very dangerous besides
[09:46] <costyn> *too
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[09:50] <_markh_> Really? If it were generated outdoors on the launch site and pumped into a balloon would it be that dangerous?
[09:50] <Randomskk> pumping hydrogen sounds fun
[09:50] <mfa298> i think there have been people that created hydrogen via chemical reaction
[09:51] <mfa298> i suspect electrolysis might be a bit slow
[09:51] <Randomskk> it's a bit hard to say. you'd be right in observing that you require oxygen for hydrogen to explode
[09:51] <M0TVU> The spreadsheet just shows the xor of the character and the polynomial
[09:51] <fsphil> it is anytime I've done it
[09:51] <gonzo_> for £50 a bottle of H2, is it really worth it?
[09:51] <Randomskk> but you would also be correct in observing that the air is full of oxygen ;P
[09:52] <Randomskk> and yea it's ghastly slow
[09:52] <_markh_> But where can you buy H2 for £50
[09:52] <Randomskk> and takes a tonne of electricity
[09:52] <gonzo_> does electricity come in metric weights?
[09:53] <_markh_> Randomskk: You could ensure an air-free route from cell to balloon
[09:53] <Randomskk> _markh_: you would definitely ensure that
[09:53] <gonzo_> suppose if you want imperial measurements you need old round pin plugs?
[09:53] <Randomskk> but one failure mode is oxygen generation at the hydrogen terminal for instance
[09:54] <M0TVU> Can you talk me through (email) the procedure of the code - I am just taking the character and xor'ing it with the polynomial for the length of the character (8 bits) im not sure where the initial ffff value applies
[09:54] <Randomskk> gonzo_: oh you can just do the conversion, it's 12,000 BTU per metric tonne of electricity
[09:55] <kokey> how many shillings is that?
[09:55] <gonzo_> a pound of electricity and a quater of jelly babies please, me shop keeper
[09:55] <gonzo_> mr
[09:56] <Randomskk> it sounds more authentic if you say 'me' :P
[09:56] <gonzo_> aghhhh, that it be, that it be
[09:56] <kokey> I've been looking around at electrolysis systems
[09:57] <kokey> e.g. to say get a small wind turbine that slowly generates some hydrogen
[09:57] <gonzo_> I think BOC H2 bottles are about £50? Plus vat probably and a monthly hire on theb bottle
[09:57] <kokey> prices are still a bit out of whack and none of the systems are that straightforward
[09:58] <kokey> in the end it just makes sense to buy the hydrogen through the normal channels
[09:58] <gonzo_> you would need some sort of pumping system for H2 unless you are ggoing to store it at atmospheric pressure
[09:58] <kokey> unless you happen to end up with the gear yourself, then why not
[09:58] <kokey> and somewhere to set it up
[09:58] <gonzo_> I wonder if compressing itt would take more power than generating it
[09:59] <kokey> I think it's all pretty inefficient, but if you have plenty of time and let the wind do the work it might make sense in some situations
[10:00] <gonzo_> suppose you cluld store it in a balloon, if you had space
[10:00] <kokey> a solar panel and a balloon
[10:00] <costyn> some sort of bladder would be useful. something that can have a zero air-volume when empty
[10:00] <kokey> you think most launches are later than planned, well this would be a whole new level of that
[10:00] <costyn> kokey: haha
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[10:01] <Randomskk> M0TVU: the best way to explain unfortunately doesn't really work in your spreadsheet model
[10:02] <fsphil> well it's often a year between my launches, would work well for me :)
[10:02] <Randomskk> you can't see it as "just" taking the CRC of a letter
[10:02] <gonzo_> wonder if there are any circumstanses where an inflight top up (prob by chemical means) would have any use?
[10:02] <Randomskk> rather, the CRC is like a state machine, evolving with each input
[10:02] <kokey> anyway with fracking for gas there will be no shortage of H2, but certainly of He
[10:02] <Randomskk> and using 0xFFFF as an initial value basically means that the status of the CRC output before you start giving it input is 0xFFFF
[10:02] <fsphil> gonzo_: chemicals would be heavier than the gas produced, so prolly not
[10:03] <gonzo_> I did suspect that.
[10:03] <fsphil> easier just to drop ballast or vent gas
[10:03] <fsphil> one option, if it could be made light enough, is to compress some gas
[10:03] <gonzo_> and the usual req seems to be losing ballast
[10:03] <fsphil> then release it into the balloon
[10:03] <costyn> fsphil: paintball CO2 cartridge?
[10:03] <fsphil> possibly
[10:03] <gonzo_> that don't hold much
[10:03] <Randomskk> M0TVU: essentially I'd recommend implementing it first then playing with that implementation to see how it works
[10:04] <fsphil> a pinhole floater with a way to top up the gas would be sweet
[10:04] <costyn> when would you want extra gas in your balloon though?
[10:04] <Randomskk> but the implementation in software is always going to be a bit different from that in hardware, and your spreadsheet is like a hardware implementation
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[10:04] <M0TVU> Taking the spreadsheet model - I XOR the letter M with the polynomial is this the correct process?
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[10:04] Nick change: Jan -> Guest23603
[10:04] <costyn> M0TVU: still happy to be using PIC? ;)
[10:05] <M0TVU> Absolutely. I'll know exactly how my code works when comleted
[10:05] <costyn> true
[10:05] <gonzo_> costyn, that was sort of in my init question. I was not dure if there was even a situation where you woyld want to
[10:05] <gonzo_> sure
[10:06] <gonzo_> I like PICs
[10:06] <fsphil> pinhole or zero pressure, though I guess they're the same
[10:06] <gonzo_> the stack is a bit limited, but you manage that in your coding
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[10:07] <M0TVU> Ihave learned loads since starting this project. The CRC is just another tempory hurdle
[10:09] <Randomskk> M0TVU: it looks broadly correct though I don't think you should actually be using the leading 1 in the divisor each time, and consequently you have missed the final 1 in the very first computation
[10:10] <Randomskk> I'm also not convinced that doing it this way will make the software any clearer nor illuminate why CRCs work so well
[10:10] <Randomskk> but yea
[10:10] <Randomskk> your technique appears essentially correct
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[10:10] <Randomskk> try doing it with 0xFFFF4D instead of just 0x4D (0x4D=77=M)
[10:10] <Randomskk> which should have the effect of using 0xFFFF as a start value
[10:11] <Randomskk> (not entirely sure that it does actually have that effect - might actually be using the crc of 0xFFFF as the start value)
[10:12] <Randomskk> alternatively
[10:12] <Randomskk> start with a 'result' of 0xFFFF, XOR it with 0x004D, then do your bit shifts with the polynomial
[10:13] <Randomskk> in other words, do what you're doing now, but instead of using 0x004D0000 to start, use 0xFFB20000
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[10:16] <M0TVU> Ok i'll give it a go and see what happens
[10:18] <Randomskk> hmm. perhaps try 0xB2FF0000 instead actually
[10:18] <Randomskk> well it might work out to a similar thing
[10:19] <Randomskk> I'd look at that C code and see if you can work out why it's doing the same thing (or not)
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[10:20] <Randomskk> it takes a byte of data and a 2byte current CRC value, XORs the current value with the zero-padded data, then goes through shifting the result up one bit each time, XORing with the polynomial with the top bit is a 1
[10:20] <fsphil> the CRC of nothing is 0xFFFF
[10:21] <fsphil> for this crc
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[10:21] <Randomskk> fsphil: only when you correctly start at 0xFFFF
[10:21] <Randomskk> if you just use the polynomial and update with 0x00, you'll have 0x0000 as your state
[10:21] <Randomskk> the crc has to be initialised to 0xFFFF first for the polynomial we use
[10:21] <Randomskk> for the algorithm we use*
[10:22] <fsphil> that's kinda what I meant but you put it better :)
[10:22] <eroomde> this is interesting
[10:22] <eroomde> http://www.xcor.com/press-releases/2013/13-03-26_XCOR-lynx-propulsion-milestone.html
[10:23] <eroomde> compared to turbopumps, this piston pump sounds like a wet fart before ignition, but it's still cool
[10:26] <fsphil> he can shout really loud
[10:26] <fsphil> but yes wet fart
[10:26] <costyn> fsphil: hehe
[10:27] <fsphil> sounds great running though
[10:27] <eroomde> yes there's a nice bass rumble
[10:27] <eroomde> i do like that they have about 1000x the power desnity of jet engines
[10:28] <eroomde> it's quite a primal apreciation
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[10:50] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "[UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[10:50] <M0TVU> can anyone tell me what this C syntax does please - if (crc & 1) - is it ANDing the value in CRC with 1?
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[10:51] <Randomskk> M0TVU: really it's a condition on the LSB of crc being set
[10:51] <number10> HixWork: this is probably a better list of flightnames that have been used http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:launch_list
[10:51] <Randomskk> but yes
[10:51] <Randomskk> it's ANDing `crc` with `1`, then seeing if the result is non-zero
[10:51] <Randomskk> (but it doesn't update the value of crc)
[10:53] <M0TVU> col
[10:53] <M0TVU> cool even
[10:55] <Spoz> hm I better get my flight for the weekend up
[10:55] <Spoz> now that I have verified that I do in fact have half a tank of helium left
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[10:59] <eroomde> interface boards just arrived
[10:59] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k264khfsu36i1ui/2013-03-27%2010.57.46.jpg
[11:01] <eroomde> I need mr RS to hurry up and deliver some bits for it
[11:02] <griffonbot> Received email: Jon Sowman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[11:08] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "[UKHAS] Re: Launch announcement: WASP-1, UK, 26th March"
[11:13] <Gadget-Mac> Don't suppose UpuWork / Upu_ is around ?
[11:13] <UpuWork> I am
[11:14] <Gadget-Mac> Are you able to get RFM23B's ? Seems RS have discontinued them :(
[11:15] <UpuWork> is that the 868Mhz one ?
[11:15] <eroomde> rage - 'in stick' turning out to be 'not in stock afterall', but they only tell you once you've plced your order
[11:15] <eroomde> looking at you, farnell
[11:15] <eroomde> in stock*
[11:15] <UpuWork> oh welcome to RS
[11:15] <Gadget-Mac> UpuWork: Yes, would be 868Mhz
[11:16] <UpuWork> how many do you need ?
[11:16] <Gadget-Mac> A couple.
[11:16] <UpuWork> I should be able to get some yes
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[11:16] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[11:16] <UpuWork> I need to do an order with Hope within the week
[11:16] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jonsowman!jonsowman@kryten.hexoc.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk
[11:16] #highaltitude: mode change '-o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[11:17] <UpuWork> mail me what you want exactly
[11:17] <Gadget-Mac> Oh thats interesting.
[11:17] <UpuWork> pm'd you my mail address
[11:17] <Gadget-Mac> Are the modules actually tuned for each band ?
[11:18] <jonsowman> output harmonic filter is different I imagine
[11:23] <UpuWork> yes
[11:24] <Gadget-Mac> Really, both 23B and 22B are listed as having a continuous freq range.
[11:25] <UpuWork> just the output filter
[11:26] <Gadget-Mac> Ah, yes just found the 'Ordering info' bit
[11:26] <Gadget-Mac> Difference between 23B and 22B is output power
[11:28] <UpuWork> mail me Gadget-Mac going to mail Hope now
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[11:34] <cuddykid> where's our resident raspberry pi expert gone!
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[11:36] <mfa298> cuddykid: whats your issue. If your lucky someone else might have an idea.
[11:37] <cuddykid> just wondering what the best webcam and pi board to order is :)
[11:37] <cuddykid> going to give this ssdv a shot
[11:37] <fsphil> model a is easier on power
[11:37] <fsphil> and really you probably don't need ethernet at 30km :)
[11:37] <cuddykid> lol
[11:37] <jonsowman> are you sure?
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[11:37] <fsphil> well unless you're using an ethernet camera
[11:38] <cuddykid> here's the man - daveake
[11:38] <daveake> oh oh
[11:38] Action: daveake flees
[11:38] <cuddykid> daveake: planning to do some ssdv using pi
[11:38] <cuddykid> lol
[11:38] Action: fsphil flees
[11:38] <cuddykid> oh no
[11:38] <daveake> That's so 2011
[11:38] <jonsowman> do it on an avr
[11:38] <daveake> er
[11:38] <daveake> 2012
[11:38] <jonsowman> save everyone including yourself
[11:38] <fsphil> doing it on avr is so 2011 :)
[11:39] <daveake> I'm sure a PC104 could do it
[11:39] <fsphil> totally
[11:39] <mfa298> or gadgeteer
[11:39] <craag> mfa298: no
[11:39] <Brace> 30,000m of ethernet cable
[11:39] <Brace> stretching into the sky
[11:39] <Brace> I can see it now
[11:39] <daveake> Brace that would weigh approx 1 tonne
[11:39] <mfa298> craag: sorry I should probably have included a :p on that
[11:40] <daveake> :)
[11:40] <cuddykid> well, I planning to use a pi for the other goodness it can bring to the party like the mobile dongle reporting back location
[11:40] <Brace> daveake: sounds like a man who's worked that out already
[11:40] <craag> mfa298: No worries, I was just waiting for someone to say it :)
[11:40] <fsphil> well the Pi is still vastly cheaper
[11:40] <fsphil> than using avr
[11:40] <mfa298> you'de need a lot of bidges in that eithernet cable as well
[11:41] <fsphil> we'd need a new standard. cat6km
[11:41] <cuddykid> daveake: what webcam do you recommend - I know that you have access to the latest and greatest now :P but not all of us do :(
[11:41] <daveake> Brace I calculated it so I could joke about it in a talk
[11:41] <daveake> However, I suggest you cast your eyes over the top-most comment at http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=OnmRudVVq_U
[11:41] <fsphil> there's no guarantee the Pi cam will be all that good
[11:41] <Brace> heh :D
[11:41] <daveake> cuddykid Logitech C270 works well
[11:41] <mfa298> probably better with some dark fibre but that gets expensive
[11:42] <gonzo_> one of the guys at the local radio club has been tatting with his Pi and recons he has sdr software and fldigi running on it
[11:42] <mfa298> and the pi doesn't have optical networing as an option :(
[11:42] <gonzo_> didn't think it had the power
[11:42] <fsphil> wonder how long it would take to transmit an image using smoke signals
[11:42] <gonzo_> make a nice mobile groundstation
[11:42] <mfa298> gonzo_: I'd seen some reports of fldigi working for some modes
[11:42] <cuddykid> daveake: cheers
[11:42] <eroomde> gonzo_: yes indeed
[11:42] <fsphil> gonzo_: at the same time?
[11:42] <mfa298> not sure if it's all modes that work though
[11:43] <eroomde> there was talk a few years ago of a deployable ground station
[11:43] <fsphil> I was able to run fldigi but at basically 100% cpu
[11:43] <eroomde> old yaesu + small laptop, antenna, car battery
[11:43] <fsphil> however 70% of that seemed to be in Xorg
[11:43] <eroomde> and just deposit it on the top of a convenient big hill
[11:43] <gonzo_> well, I assume so. Without the sdr, fldigi would not have anything to listen to!
[11:43] <eroomde> and somehow have it get sentences back to you (txt message or whatever)
[11:43] <fsphil> I used a usb sound dongle and plugged it into my ft817
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[11:45] <fsphil> graphics on the pi is just soooo slow
[11:45] <Gadget-Mac> eroomde: I wondered about having a deployable teathered balloon, and a nice USB dongle under it.
[11:45] <fsphil> quadcopter!
[11:45] <cuddykid> hexacopter!
[11:45] <Gadget-Mac> Flight duration issues I'd image there ;)
[11:45] <fsphil> although little beats a really long telescopic pole
[11:46] <eroomde> i hate tethered balloons
[11:46] <fsphil> it wouldn't need to go that high, you could tether it with a power cable
[11:46] <eroomde> bad experiences
[11:46] <Gadget-Mac> Oh ?
[11:46] <gonzo_> as opposed the the usual way of teathering a hab in powercables?!
[11:46] <cuddykid> daveake: with regard to the pi - there's no vreg on board, so need to supply a clean 5v supply?
[11:47] <daveake> A chap at the Bristol maker faire came up to me and said he'd done a 2km tethered balloon
[11:47] <eroomde> Gadget-Mac: they're not aerodyanmically stable
[11:47] <daveake> with an SLR ...
[11:47] <daveake> ... and managed to let go of the line
[11:47] <eroomde> so they bounce around and twist and turn tremendously
[11:47] <costyn> daveake: aargh
[11:47] <fsphil> eek
[11:47] <Gadget-Mac> eroomde: ok, Kite then ;)
[11:47] <cuddykid> imagine trying to get permission from DM for a 2km tethered
[11:47] <Spoz> hey guys, I've submitted a flight document for this weekend the 30th, is anyone here able to approve it?
[11:47] <daveake> quite cuddykid
[11:47] <daveake> I suspect that didn't happen
[11:47] <costyn> Spoz: go to #habhub for that
[11:48] <cuddykid> Spoz: quote the doc id
[11:48] <daveake> cuddykid You ned regulated 5V yes because of the USB webcam
[11:48] <daveake> You can get SMPS modules on fleabay for just over £1 each
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[11:50] <Spoz> ah
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[11:51] <cuddykid> daveake: this kind of thing? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LM2596-Voltage-Regulator-board-4-5V-to-40V-in-1-2V-to-37V-out-UK-STOCK-/190814696793?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&var=&hash=item2c6d713559
[11:51] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE__ -> Geoff-G8DHE
[11:52] <cuddykid> I could just get a 5V reg and solder up a little circuit
[11:52] <daveake> of course
[11:53] <daveake> and yes that one
[11:53] <daveake> You can get them much cheaper too!
[11:53] <cuddykid> cheaper than £1.99?!
[11:54] <daveake> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LM2596-Step-Down-Adjustable-DC-DC-Power-Supply-Module-New-/170734419936?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item27c0907fe0
[11:57] <costyn> daveake: what does it mean when it says "we don't offer patterns choice"... are they talking about a color scheme?
[11:57] <daveake> no idea
[11:57] <cuddykid> ah, brilliant, thanks daveake :)
[11:57] <daveake> I used 2 last time - one for the 5V rail one for 3.3V
[11:57] <costyn> cuddykid: depending on how fast you want it, ordering from the UK seller will be a lot faster
[11:58] <DrLuke> http://i.imgur.com/mbOgFFR.jpg - Kerbal Space Program is frickin awesome :)
[11:58] <daveake> Don't forget to adjust the voltage before you connect to the Pi :)
[11:58] <cuddykid> yeah, noticed it's from HK, but no rush as the pi has a 2 week lead time anyway, and the flight won't be until june :)
[11:58] <cuddykid> haha, yes, must remember that daveake
[11:58] <costyn> cuddykid: ok... from HK it'll take around 3 weeks
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[11:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> differing board layouts and no pins as per the first item
[11:59] <costyn> still ordering from HK and China is brilliant. Cheap as dirt and no shipping and you can find nearly anything on ebay
[11:59] <costyn> I love it
[12:00] <cuddykid> yep, it's great
[12:02] <cuddykid> hm, everywhere seems to have 2-3 week lead times on the pi's
[12:03] <costyn> cuddykid: even ebay? :P
[12:03] <cuddykid> actually on ebay - only £3 more in stock uk
[12:03] <cuddykid> costyn: beat me to it
[12:03] <costyn> :)
[12:05] <WillDuckworth> hey cuddykid - i have a spare if you want?
[12:07] <cuddykid> Hiya WillDuckworth - oh, perfect! What model is it?
[12:08] <WillDuckworth> the original version - have ssdv going on it too
[12:08] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth: does it have 2 usb ports?
[12:08] <WillDuckworth> yep
[12:09] <cuddykid> oh nice
[12:09] <cuddykid> what webcam are you using?
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[12:14] <WillDuckworth> Logitech C270
[12:14] <WillDuckworth> special offer
[12:15] <WillDuckworth> needs to be supported for the linux module which i can't remember at the mo
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[12:16] <cuddykid> ah yes, that's the one daveake recommended - going to get one on order
[12:16] <daveake> V4L2
[12:17] <daveake> The webcam installs as /dev/video0 and you get stills from it with fswebcam (other programs are available)
[12:20] <WillDuckworth> fswebcam works well - good skills fsphil :)
[12:21] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth: got this hexacopter built :) had a few small flights so far - last one had quite a crash landing!
[12:22] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hkt7724gg6jaiod/Hex%20Flight.mov
[12:23] <WillDuckworth> oooh exciting
[12:25] <Gadget-Mac> cuddykid: thats cool
[12:25] <_markh_> Can anyone steer me toward some info on antenna design for the payload. We're using 435MHz...
[12:25] <cuddykid> so far, broken 2 props and 1 leg
[12:28] <fsphil> other programs are availble, but they're not as good :)
[12:29] <daveake> indeed!
[12:30] <gonzo_> _markh_, an upside down 1/4 wave groundplane is standard for most HAB tx
[12:31] <cuddykid> nice work fsphil :)
[12:32] <costyn> _markh_: http://imgur.com/a/8JY4w#5 you can see the ground-plane which are the 4 radials. The active element still has to be attached but goes in the center
[12:33] <_markh_> gonzo_: thanks. Do you know where I can look up the dimensions to make one
[12:33] <_markh_> costyn: looking now....
[12:33] <cuddykid> daveake: do you have ntxs hooked up directly to pi?
[12:33] <costyn> _markh_: the active element should be 16.4cm long, radials can be about that length too, not that important as long as they're as long or longer
[12:34] <daveake> cuddykid Same circuit as usual except it goes to the Pi serial Tx pin
[12:34] <_markh_> and are the radials just connected to the coax screen?
[12:34] <daveake> yes
[12:34] <griffonbot> Received email: Ali al-Azzawi "[UKHAS] Re: Launch announcement: WASP-1, UK, 26th March"
[12:34] <cuddykid> daveake: excellent - think I'll do that then instead of trying to interface with rfm based flight pcb
[12:35] <costyn> _markh_: yes
[12:35] <daveake> cuddykid Yeah it's the simplest. On my next Pi flight I've got an Arduino in there, so I could use an rfm but I'm not.
[12:36] <gonzo_> if you are using coax, measure the length of the active element from where the coax braid finishes. So incluse any length of the coaz inner that is showing
[12:36] <cuddykid> daveake: my problem is going to be antennas - there's now going to be 3 radios on board :P .. 1 of which running on a stub antenna, but other 2 probably 1/4 waves
[12:36] <_markh_> Looks simple enough. Could the active be flexible (perhaops weighted slighly to keep it straight) so as to avoid breakage on landing?
[12:37] <mattbrejza> cuddykid: all 434?
[12:37] <costyn> _markh_: just use a drinking straw to keep it striaght
[12:37] <cuddykid> mattbrejza: yeah, variants - so .3, .5ish, .650
[12:37] <costyn> _markh_: it's recommended to not make it too strong so it crummples on landing instead impaling someone or something
[12:37] <mattbrejza> did you want moar bandwidth?
[12:38] <_markh_> Will do. Thanks very much.
[12:38] <cuddykid> well, things are going to hopefully separate mid-flight so one part needs it's own tracking system - then the main payload will have ssdv radio + usual tracking radio
[12:38] <mattbrejza> oh i see
[12:38] <mattbrejza> you could always combine ssdv and telemetry
[12:39] <cuddykid> could do yeah
[12:39] <mattbrejza> or have the telemetry payload be 5m up on the string
[12:40] <mattbrejza> in the end even if its a bit too close than it should be theres enough headroom in terms of SNR that things just seem to work
[12:40] <mattbrejza> unless the antenna isnt pluggd in
[12:41] <mattbrejza> or the driven falls off during flight...
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[12:48] <_markh_> costyn: Why is the active element 16.4cm? I thought a 1/4 wave of 435Mhz would be 17.2cm...
[12:49] <griffonbot> Received email: Mark Jessop "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[12:49] <costyn> _markh_: 16.4 is for 434, if you are using something different, calculate it here http://www.csgnetwork.com/antennagpcalc.html
[12:49] <costyn> _markh_: for 435 I still get 16.4cm
[12:50] <Spoz> this might be a good time to ask, what sort of transmission line do you use for a monopole?
[12:50] <Spoz> Ive got some 50 ohm coax
[12:51] <Spoz> can I just leave a l/4 wire on the end?
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[12:51] <Spoz> and attach suitable ground wires
[12:51] <_markh_> costyn:so I see... I just worked out 1/4 of the wavelength which http://www.onlineconversion.com/frequency_wavelength.htm reckons is 172mm
[12:51] <_markh_> is the 1/4 designation approximate>
[12:52] <costyn> _markh_: not sure what's going on there, but I trust that 1/4-wave calculator :)
[12:53] <craag> Hmm, it is 17.2 cm according to my calculations
[12:54] <jonsowman> 17.28 in fact
[12:54] <costyn> derp?
[12:54] <craag> But as long as it's +-0.5cm I'm sure it's fine.
[12:54] <jonsowman> 300/(434*4) metres
[12:54] <costyn> I tried another calculator which also said 16.4cm
[12:55] <costyn> well I stand corrected I guess
[12:56] <Spoz> anyone know about the transmission line?
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[12:56] <costyn> Spoz: are yu making a 1/4 wave antenna too?
[12:56] <Spoz> yep
[12:56] <Spoz> two in fact
[12:56] <costyn> Spoz: well just read what we've been chatting about :)
[12:56] <costyn> Spoz: to answer your question, yes
[12:56] <Spoz> the one for the payload is fine, I can just solder it straight to the transmitter
[12:56] <Spoz> but for the car I need to connect the radio to the antenna which is 3m away
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[12:57] <costyn> Spoz: ah, ok
[12:57] <Spoz> ahh I didnt realise this discussion had been going for so long
[12:57] <_markh_> I guess the question is whether 1/4 antenna with groundplane is best at exactly 1/4 or whetehr the GP makes a difference to the optimal length
[12:57] <costyn> Spoz: are you making your own antenna for on the ground?
[12:58] <Spoz> yes
[12:58] <Spoz> I used a dipole last time but it didnt work very well when we were directly below
[12:58] <Spoz> and Im guessing I cant just tilt the dipole 90 degrees so its parallel to the ground
[12:58] <Spoz> so I wanted to make a monopole
[12:58] <costyn> Spoz: you'd best be off by getting a 70cm magmount antenna
[12:59] <Spoz> I tried, cant get one on short notice
[12:59] <gonzo_> youi can just tilt a dipole
[12:59] <costyn> Spoz: then you can just pop it on the roof of your car (which uses the roof as a ground-plane)
[12:59] <Spoz> launch is on saturday
[12:59] <costyn> ah
[12:59] <Spoz> oh you can gonzo?
[12:59] <gonzo_> monopole will probably (depending on the design) be no different
[12:59] <Spoz> our chase vehicle is a ute (pickup truck? not sure what you guys call it)
[12:59] <Spoz> so Im not sure the best way to mount things
[12:59] <Spoz> dipole on the roof pointing backwards?
[13:00] <gonzo_> mag mount is least intrusive
[13:00] <Spoz> as I said we had it vertical last time and we only got reception when we were far away
[13:00] <fsphil> I used a little vertical mag mount
[13:00] <fsphil> it worked even while I was under the payload
[13:00] <Spoz> ok, ive looked and cant get one before saturday
[13:00] <fsphil> though it did weaken a bit
[13:00] <fsphil> still decoded fine
[13:00] <Spoz> hence wanting to build something, it doesnt have to be a monopole
[13:00] <Spoz> but we plan to be under the payload the entire time
[13:00] <costyn> Spoz: but in theory you can just make your ground antenna the same way as your 1/4-wave payload antenna
[13:01] <Spoz> yeah thats what I was going to do
[13:01] <gonzo_> a 1/4 wave groundplane on the car works. If you tilt it back at 45deg you can get bettwr coverage above too
[13:01] <fsphil> yea
[13:01] <Spoz> 1/4 wave mono?
[13:01] <fsphil> stick the mag mount on a vertical surface
[13:01] <Spoz> I dont have a mag mount! :p
[13:01] <costyn> fsphil: he doesn't have a magmount :) and no time to get one :)
[13:01] <fsphil> ah yes
[13:01] <costyn> fsphil: so has to make his own
[13:01] <mattbrejza> could build 5/8ths instead
[13:01] <gonzo_> drill a hole!
[13:01] <Spoz> poor planning on my part I know
[13:02] <Spoz> but this is the situation I find myself in
[13:02] <gonzo_> any local hams you could borrowe from?
[13:02] <mattbrejza> the antenna we used last time was 3 6/8 wave, that didnt work so well when underneith it
[13:02] <Spoz> I don't know any
[13:02] <Spoz> Ive got all the materials here to build something
[13:02] <Spoz> I just dont know what I should build
[13:02] <Spoz> I have a yagi if all else fails
[13:02] <Spoz> just a bit hard to mount to the car
[13:03] <Spoz> maybe I should just use that...
[13:03] <jonsowman> _markh_, costyn, craag - sorry, got distracted. the reason for the discrepancy is a fudge for the velocity factor
[13:03] <mattbrejza> you might be suprised that the whip on top of the radio will probably work for most of it
[13:03] <Spoz> hmm
[13:03] <mattbrejza> if you have a jagi i wouldnt be too worried, it can always sit in kinda the right direction on a seat or something
[13:04] <Spoz> hehe
[13:04] <Spoz> yeah fair enough
[13:04] <costyn> jonsowman: can you elaborate?
[13:04] <jonsowman> if you use a 95% VF you get 16.4cm
[13:04] <Spoz> maybe I'll make a little monopole anyway just so I can be spoiled for choice
[13:05] <jonsowman> costyn: the speed of light is lower in the material than in free space
[13:05] <jonsowman> for insulated copper wire of a typical diameter used for antennas, the velocity factor is about 95%
[13:05] <craag> jonsowman: Darn, yes.
[13:06] <costyn> jonsowman: ok, so the 16.4 is the correct length?
[13:06] <jonsowman> well, if you trust that approximation
[13:06] <costyn> right
[13:06] <jonsowman> it's fine really for HAB stuff
[13:06] <fsphil> it'll be close enough to not make any difference
[13:06] <jonsowman> even using 17.2mm wouldn't be an issue
[13:06] <fsphil> the quality of your connections will be more important
[13:07] <jonsowman> but that's the reason for all the calculators saing 16.4mm
[13:07] <eroomde> cm*
[13:07] <jonsowman> orry
[13:07] <jonsowman> *sorry
[13:07] <jonsowman> yes, cm
[13:08] <costyn> ok, thanks, good to know :)
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[13:15] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Launch Annoucement - HABEX2 - 1700UTC March 30th,
[13:20] <craag> These vaisala sondes.. do they have a proper gps receiver, or just the one that passes down the samples?
[13:21] <costyn> craag: the latter
[13:21] <fsphil> iirc they only retransmit the phases
[13:21] <costyn> afaik
[13:21] <craag> ah ok
[13:21] <fsphil> the calculation is done on the ground
[13:21] <fsphil> which is a rather cute trick
[13:21] <craag> THat's what I thought, cheers.
[13:22] <_markh_> jonsowman: Thanks for that. I'll be using 16.4 then.
[13:22] <jonsowman> _markh_: yeah, that'll do fine
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[13:31] <costyn> off-topic, but since we love word-jokes here, small video I made last night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJEb3xkxTQI
[13:32] <jonsowman> hahaha
[13:32] <number10> :)
[13:33] <costyn> the area they're jumping on is a fragment of old hwoyee 1600
[13:34] <number10> I bet that doesnt smell to good
[13:34] <costyn> been sitting in my shed for a while, so it has had time to air. doesn't really stink any more
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[13:35] <fsphil> very good costyn
[13:35] <costyn> fsphil: thanks :)
[13:36] <costyn> we played around with cornstarch non-newtonian fluid for the rest of the evening. man that stuff is weird
[13:36] <costyn> the harder you stir, the harder it becomes to stir
[13:36] <fsphil> try putting it in a speaker and playing loud tones?
[13:37] <costyn> yep
[13:37] <costyn> thats what the rubber sheet was for
[13:38] <costyn> it took quite a bit of tweaking to get the consistency of the oobleck, the frequency and amplitude right
[13:38] <gonzo_> and lots of beers
[13:39] <jonsowman> I'm glad so much effort is much into such important projects
[13:39] <jonsowman> *put
[13:39] Action: jonsowman makes a note not to type and speak at the same time
[13:39] <costyn> gonzo_: not sure what's wrong with my hackerspace, but hardly anyone drinks beer. everyone is addicted to this weird German caffeinated tea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club-Mate
[13:40] <Darkside> yessssss
[13:40] <Darkside> club mate ftw
[13:40] <costyn> Darkside: not you too...
[13:40] <eroomde> club mate is an international hackspace thing
[13:40] <Darkside> it is 'the' hackerspace drink
[13:40] <eroomde> they have it at london hs too
[13:40] <Darkside> we even have it in australia
[13:40] <Darkside> shipped in from europe
[13:40] <fsphil> never heard of it
[13:40] <Darkside> costs about twice as much as it does in europe..
[13:41] <costyn> I still have to try the cola, but the stuff itself is pretty nasty
[13:41] <fsphil> though I've yet to visit a hackerspace
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[13:41] <gonzo_> if I drink tea, I'll take a teapot
[13:41] <bubbu> Is there anyone in the Toronto, ON Canada area that has experience with high altitude balloon flights?
[13:41] <fsphil> next time I'm in london I'll have to get a look
[13:41] <gonzo_> (and a strainer)
[13:41] <costyn> gonzo_: yep me too
[13:42] <costyn> bubbu: I don't think we've had any Canadians here before
[13:42] <costyn> bubbu: you from there?
[13:42] <gonzo_> is there a more appt chan we can suggest?
[13:44] <eroomde> wrong
[13:44] <eroomde> natrium42 is canadian
[13:44] <eroomde> was
[13:44] <eroomde> lives in SF now
[13:44] <fsphil> he was canadian but is better now?
[13:44] <eroomde> russian
[13:44] <eroomde> lived in canadia
[13:44] <costyn> fsphil: lol
[13:45] <Brace> club mate? not heard of that for years
[13:45] <eroomde> palo alto*
[13:45] <x-f> there was Canadawest - http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:canadawest, but he hasn't visited this chan in a while now
[13:45] <Brace> a mates dad (who was an electrical engineer) was massively into club mate, somekind of post war thing
[13:45] <x-f> for a while*
[13:45] <fsphil> yea it's oddly quiet in .ca - it's almost an ideal country for HAB'ing
[13:46] <number10> apart from all those lakes and trees
[13:46] <fsphil> every country has those
[13:46] <number10> dont forget the bears
[13:46] <fsphil> ok fair point on the bears
[13:47] <jonsowman> maybe we should add bear locations to the predictor
[13:47] <gonzo_> I'll stick with UK and beers
[13:47] <gonzo_> and beer locations
[13:47] <gonzo_> (and chippies, for dave)
[13:47] <number10> wasnt there bear tracks seen on one of the european launches recently
[13:49] <Brace> while it's not quite the same area, what about North USA, there's got to be some habbers there?
[13:49] <fsphil> might be worth asking on the GPSL mailing list
[13:50] <fsphil> it's mostly US but there may be some canadians on it
[13:50] <costyn> bubbu seems not to have noticed we're paying attention :)
[13:51] <Geoff-G8DHE_> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Club-Mate
[13:51] <kokey> I think we should extend UKHAS to EMEAHAS
[13:52] <costyn> hehe
[13:52] <kokey> at least we're all roughly in the same time zone
[13:53] <kokey> unfortunately the windows won't let us track across the whole region
[13:53] <kokey> windows.. hah, I mean winds
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[14:03] <M0TVU> Hello again ....
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[14:03] <M0TVU> Is there anyone here that could takea look at my CRC code - Pic Basic
[14:03] <Darkside> urgh
[14:03] <Darkside> only a few people work in BASIC here
[14:04] <M0TVU> The procedure is the sam as any language
[14:04] <M0TVU> same
[14:04] <Darkside> still
[14:05] <Darkside> a lot of us just pull in the crc16 routines from the standard libraries
[14:05] <Geoff-G8DHE_> grab some strings from the server and pass them to it does it generate the correct result ?
[14:05] <M0TVU> I know. very few really know how it works
[14:06] <M0TVU> Geoff - I am testing against a crc checker at the moment and my code doesn't give the same answer :-(
[14:07] <M0TVU> http://pastie.org/7137725
[14:07] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Is it the right CRC type CRC16-CCITT
[14:07] <M0TVU> I believe so
[14:07] <M0TVU> I am using all the stuff as outlind in the protocol doc
[14:07] <M0TVU> I think
[14:09] <gonzo_> I've found a few online crc generator pages that lie
[14:10] <gonzo_> caused me lots of confusion
[14:12] <M0TVU> Well i think the character M = 7899 however I get 7843
[14:14] <fsphil> M0TVU: remember the CRC calculation doesn't include the initial $ chararacters
[14:14] <fsphil> characters*
[14:14] <fsphil> that catches a lot of people out
[14:14] <gonzo_> I did look at writing my own routine from scratch, but ended up just taking some reasonably optimised C code and copying it
[14:14] <fsphil> yea me too
[14:15] <gonzo_> it's all BETWEEN the $ and * isn't it?
[14:15] <fsphil> yea, between but not including
[14:15] <gonzo_> many people here are using libs, but I've spent so much time fighting libraries that are crap, or don't do quite what I want, I just write my own stuff from scratch
[14:16] <gonzo_> so I bet few here have dug down into the crc algorythm to the depts you are
[14:17] <HixWork> the divider on the NTX2 wiki that uses 3 resistors to set the voltages for space and mark. What is its real name?
[14:17] <HixWork> All the info I see on votage dividers shoe 2 resistors
[14:18] <HixWork> I can't do anything at work, so may as well read up on theories
[14:18] <Darkside> analyze it yourself
[14:19] <Darkside> shouldn't be too hard to figure out
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> http://js1k.com/2013-spring/demo/1451 on the topic of optimal code
[14:20] <M0TVU> It's something to do withthe polynomial - The code seems right I think it's just starting from the wrong point - I have 0xffff as a start so there must be something else.
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[14:20] <SpeedEvil> and flying things.
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> in just 1k
[14:20] <fsphil> the js1k mine tunnel demo is amazing
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[14:25] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Yes I also make "M" =7899 using http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/info/crc-calculation.html and feeding it some strings from actual flights http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/_design/ept/_list/csv/payload_telemetry/flight_payload_time?include_docs=true&startkey=[%226af658367701af55f8907a5b5e9964fb%22,%226af658367701af55f8907a5b5e928f03%22]&endkey=[%226af658367701af55f8907a5b5e9964fb%22,%226af658367701af55f8907a5b5e928f03%22,
[14:25] <Geoff-G8DHE_> it calculates the correct ones as well.
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[14:25] <costyn> fsphil: link?
[14:25] <Randomskk> fsphil: loads of them are mindblowing
[14:26] <Randomskk> I spent like an hour last night on that instead of habitat-rockblock
[14:27] <fsphil> costyn: http://js1k.com/2013-spring/demo/1459
[14:27] <costyn> fsphil: that is nuts
[14:28] <griffonbot> Received email: Dave B "Re: [UKHAS] Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[14:29] <Randomskk> be sure to click at the top to see the actaul JS running it
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[14:36] <costyn> Randomskk: incredible :)
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[14:46] <kokey> heh, I just remembered my arduino code is obviously not at sea, it's on my laptop
[14:56] <fsphil> just as well, it might have gotten pirated
[14:57] <gonzo_> or watered down
[14:58] <gonzo_> (another wave of puns?)
[14:58] <number10> is it written in C
[14:59] <HixWork> I'm getting aboard with these pirate puns
[14:59] <fsphil> there aar not many more
[15:01] <gonzo_> the tread is still quite bouyant
[15:01] <mfa298> im stumped with finding more puns
[15:02] <fsphil> keep this up and eroomde will make us walk the plank
[15:02] <gonzo_> that was a sentence with a hook on it
[15:02] <gonzo_> it's not a patch on other threads
[15:02] <costyn> can't be avast many more of these...
[15:03] <HixWork> someone needs a kick in the booty
[15:03] <gonzo_> I'll start to b-lubber
[15:03] <costyn> this channel sure is a treasure trove of pun threads
[15:03] <gonzo_> It's all plain sailing from now on
[15:03] <HixWork> its a cri-seas
[15:04] <jonsowman> good afternoon everyo... *leaves*
[15:04] <gonzo_> the puns are just starting to acnnon into eachother
[15:05] <HixWork> its all running aground
[15:05] <gonzo_> leaves? Is he branching out then?
[15:05] <HixWork> i think its gone a little bit overboard
[15:05] <gonzo_> (no not another, honest!)
[15:05] <costyn> HixWork: :)
[15:05] <gonzo_> just h-anchoring after a new line in puns
[15:06] <HixWork> i cant fathom this out at all
[15:06] <costyn> HixWork: you k-not?
[15:06] <costyn> (weak)
[15:06] <eroomde> Parcelforce are tw*ts
[15:06] <HixWork> heh
[15:06] <eroomde> oh wait, that's not a pun
[15:06] <HixWork> yup
[15:06] <HixWork> Royal Fail - though they should walk the plank
[15:07] <costyn> eroomde: twat was it then?
[15:07] <gonzo_> we are not tide to this subject
[15:07] <HixWork> I feel like a bit of a pirate, Ive spent quite a while at C
[15:08] <HixWork> but not really getitng far with it
[15:08] Action: HixWork gets coat - leaves
[15:08] <gonzo_> Just parsing some datasheets, look at all these interesting dev-high-seas there are....
[15:09] <gonzo_> (groan)
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[15:09] <costyn> gonzo_: you plundering them for interesting data?
[15:09] <gonzo_> Yep, there may be the odd gem in there
[15:09] <jonsowman> /kick everyone
[15:10] <gonzo_> hehe, ok I'm done
[15:10] <HixWork> wonder how many puns have been amast in one sitting
[15:10] <gonzo_> (not had a good pun run for days)
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[15:12] <mfa298> good punnage and no daveake, have the tides turned ?
[15:12] <HixWork> I agree with eroomde Parcelforce really should ship faster
[15:13] <gonzo_> If he were here, we would be scuppered! A((, i said I'd do no more....)
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[15:14] <HixWork> you said it was trove-r
[15:14] <HixWork> yau are ovbiously hooked on it
[15:15] <HixWork> this should really be on #sealevel
[15:19] <costyn> HixWork: make it stop! :P
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[15:23] <HixWork> I've bailed out costyn
[15:24] <costyn> aargh
[15:24] <costyn> or should I say 'aaarrr'
[15:28] <cuddykid> ping WillDuckworth
[15:30] <WillDuckworth> hi
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[15:32] Nick change: joph_ -> joph
[15:39] <eroomde> unix has made me feel slightly better about life
[15:40] <eroomde> after parcelforce ruined it
[15:40] <fsphil> it doesn't always have that effect
[15:40] <eroomde> i used ubuntu's built-in photo thing to import all the photos from my long-retired iphone 3gs, just so i had them nearer to hand
[15:40] <eroomde> it buried them in some retardly nested folder structure
[15:40] <costyn> eroomde: sounds like an Apple product
[15:40] <eroomde> like 4 levels deep on year/months/day/time or something
[15:41] <eroomde> find . -type f -print0 | xargs -0 -I%%% cp %%% .
[15:41] <eroomde> boom
[15:41] <eroomde> unix to the rescue
[15:41] <eroomde> nice and flat, how i like it
[15:41] <costyn> i love find
[15:41] <eroomde> took a couple of attempts to get the incantation right
[15:44] <costyn> I like using -exec instead of | xargs
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[15:44] <costyn> -exec cp {} .
[15:45] <costyn> oh wait that would've not done antyhing :)
[15:46] <costyn> no wait.. that would work. find . -type f -exec cp {} . \; should copy the files from in the directories to the current dir
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[15:49] <SpeedEvil> costyn: not smashing files witrh the same name can be good though
[15:49] <eroomde> yes
[15:49] <eroomde> that would be a danger
[15:49] <eroomde> but not in this case thankfully
[15:50] <costyn> SpeedEvil: then use cp -i
[15:50] <costyn> as a warning
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> or just mv to md5sum,jpg
[15:50] <mfa298> I think the -exec would have done the same as the xargs (although I don't know xargs that well)
[15:51] <mfa298> -exec your just telling find to run the external command cp
[15:52] <SpeedEvil> xargs can be handy, as it let's you preproxess
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> something like find . -print0|awk -v RS='/000' '{print $0 "length($1)/}' |xargs -0 -n2 mv
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> can be very useful
[16:13] <DanielRichman> though in this case both xargs and -exec would execute cp once for each file, when executing something simpler xargs will do a few hundred in one go (so faster)
[16:23] <arko> morning
[16:25] <eroomde> afternoon
[16:25] <eroomde> or Zulu Felicitations
[16:25] <eroomde> which everyone should really standardise on as a timezone-agnostic greeting
[16:26] <arko> haha
[16:26] <jonsowman> :\
[16:26] <arko> i think zulu should be redefined to the coolest country
[16:26] <arko> that way we get it
[16:27] #highaltitude: mode change '+o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[16:29] <gonzo_> the phrase just sounds rude to me
[16:29] <arko> Zulu Felicitation?
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[16:32] <mfa298> Surely in here it should be Happy ISHing as that's the usual lauch timezone
[16:33] <mfa298> or Good ISHing
[16:33] <arko> this is me right now: http://i.imgur.com/cFl8dkY.gif
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[16:34] <Willdude123> Afternoon guys.
[16:34] <arko> we're on spacenear.us/tracker
[16:34] <arko> now :)
[16:34] <jonsowman> :D
[16:34] <eroomde> greetings Willdude123
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[16:35] <Willdude123> Woah, why the op status Ed? :)
[16:36] <eroomde> incase ParcelForce join the channel
[16:36] #highaltitude: mode change '-o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[16:36] <Willdude123> ParcelForce?
[16:36] <eroomde> delivery company
[16:37] <mfa298> Often called ParcelFarce by their (unlucky) customers
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[16:39] <Willdude123> Why'd they join the channel?
[16:40] <mfa298> I think eroomde is annoyed by them due to their poor ability to deliver parcels
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[16:41] <mfa298> and for different annoyances it looks like MS have failed nicely at interface design, On Win8 Pro Ctrl-Alt <left Arrow> is the hot key to exit a Hyper-V VM and also the hotkey to rotate the screen to portrait mode :(
[16:41] Action: mfa298 probably shouldnt be so surprised
[17:00] <Willdude123> Any launches soon?
[17:00] <arko> im launching saturday
[17:02] <mfa298> Willdude123: it might be worth joining the mailing list or at least watching the google group then you'll hear about launches
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[17:02] <mfa298> http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas
[17:03] <mfa298> there might be another launch in the next couple of days but the group doing it only said they might sometime this week
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[17:08] Nick change: Morseman_ -> Morseman
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[17:13] <arko> woot! if anyone is in LA in late May, I'll be giving a talk at Layerone
[17:13] <arko> :)
[17:14] <number10> what about?
[17:14] <eroomde> i won't be
[17:15] <arko> hab's env testing
[17:15] <arko> over the summer i'm going to improve the talk and do more things to give an even better talk at ukhas :)
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[17:16] <craag> Is there a date set for ukhas yet?
[17:18] <arko> i was going to talk to Upu after april 1st
[17:18] <arko> once my hab is done and school boots up again
[17:19] <craag> Cool
[17:19] <craag> Good luck with saturday!
[17:21] <arko> :) thanks
[17:21] <Upu_> ehy arko
[17:21] <Upu_> yeah sorted
[17:21] Nick change: Upu_ -> Upu
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[17:41] <arko> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YGTW555Gu4 how do you not dance to that?
[17:41] <arko> damn, wrong channel
[17:42] Action: Upu pats arko
[17:42] <arko> the statement still stands
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[18:03] <Morseman> Why would you want to?
[18:04] <arko> do what?
[18:04] <Morseman> Dance to that
[18:04] <arko> vOv
[18:04] <Morseman> OK - off swimming back later
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[18:05] <arko> WHY WOULD YOU SWIM!?
[18:05] <Upu> haha
[18:07] <arko> i've had too much coffee and waiting for this meeting to be over is killing me
[18:07] <arko> im not even suppose to be here >_>
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[18:21] <griffonbot> Received email: Ali al-Azzawi "[UKHAS] Re: Launch announcement: WASP-1, UK, 26th March"
[18:21] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "[UKHAS] Re: Launch announcement: WASP-1, UK, 26th March"
[18:22] <griffonbot> Received email: Tomasz Brol "Re: [UKHAS] Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[18:22] <griffonbot> Received email: Christopher Atherton "Re: [UKHAS] Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[18:24] <eroomde> lucky you gonzo_
[18:26] <Randomskk> no good deed...
[18:26] <mattbrejza> just get the 200 for free and sell for £10 a pop (free + p/p and handling)
[18:26] <mattbrejza> rest on ebay
[18:27] <mattbrejza> that still seems like a lot of effort
[18:28] <craag> mattbrejza: Yeah we (g3kmi) were talking about something like that.
[18:28] <craag> But 200 of them..
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[18:29] <mattbrejza> its not far for you to go pick up
[18:29] <mattbrejza> and if you say the cost is a donation to the club then seems justified
[18:29] <craag> true
[18:30] <jonsowman> can you use them in ISM bands?
[18:30] <jonsowman> as in, can you tune them to 434?
[18:30] <craag> jonsowman: According to Darkside, probably not.
[18:31] <craag> He could only get the newer ones to go upto 420 I think.
[18:31] <jonsowman> hmm ok
[18:31] <jonsowman> so we couldn't actually fly them legally
[18:31] <craag> no
[18:31] <jonsowman> maybe that should be made clearer on the list
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[18:33] <chrisstubbs> Ahh man, the GPS output is next to useless too apparently :(
[18:33] <chrisstubbs> would have liked to have a play with those
[18:34] <craag> chrisstubbs: Yeah, that was the clincher for us. Pretty much the only useful bits are the sensors and the GPS antenna.
[18:35] <chrisstubbs> At 403MHz are these things designed for US use?
[18:36] <mfa298> I think they're used in the UK/Europe but the met office etc would have access to that bit of spectrum
[18:36] <craag> I believe there's a band at 403MHz designated for MET office.
[18:36] <jonsowman> indeed there is
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[18:38] <chrisstubbs> Ah, shame i cant think of any other uses for them
[18:38] <jonsowman> paperweights
[18:38] <chrisstubbs> lol
[18:38] <Willdude123> Evening guys.
[18:38] <jonsowman> evening
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[18:40] <mfa298> there's a huge pdf at http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/spectrum/spectrum-information/UKFAT_2013.pdf with various bits of spectrum users
[18:40] <mfa298> just a small 280 pages worth
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[18:40] <jonsowman> 401  406 MHz
[18:40] <jonsowman> FIXED
[18:40] <jonsowman> METEOROLOGICAL-AIDS
[18:41] <chrisstubbs> Neat :)
[18:41] <eroomde> the good kind
[18:41] <jonsowman> lol
[18:41] <jonsowman> they can't spell though
[18:41] <jonsowman> oh no that is right, ignore
[18:41] <jonsowman> i can't spell
[18:41] <jonsowman> :D
[18:42] <mfa298> there's a few sets of frequencies covering METEOROLOGICAL-AIDS
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[18:42] <jonsowman> yeah
[18:42] <jonsowman> 9kHz
[18:44] <mfa298> looks to be a few pages in there covering 400-410
[18:45] <mfa298> there might be a better guide somewhere, I've got a really old paper list of spectrum users somewhere which I think listed who the primary and secondary users are as well.
[18:46] <mfa298> but that will be very out of date (I think it was published by the RA)
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[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:31] <Maxell> Oh hai
[19:31] <fsphil> it's him! quick, hide hide
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander> XD
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[19:44] <HixPad> What do people think about filling the void in the ntx2 with a potting compound as an effort to raise the shc of the device as a whole before insulation?
[19:47] <Upu> not entirely necessary
[19:47] <Upu> just close insulation and avoid any air flow over the radio
[19:47] <HixPad> Wouldn't it be beneficial though
[19:48] <HixPad> Negating weight
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[20:11] <Randomskk> and guess who has volunteered to take all the viasala sondes and distribute them
[20:12] <Randomskk> well I won't leave you in suspense
[20:12] <Randomskk> but for those not at their mail clients
[20:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Chris Stubbs "[UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[20:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Ali al-Azzawi "[UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[20:12] <Randomskk> here's three names to pick from
[20:12] <Darkside> urgh
[20:13] <Darkside> ther eis a very limited use case for them
[20:13] <Darkside> and turning them on is a breach of some radiocomms act
[20:13] <mfa298> that's only two names to choose from
[20:13] <mfa298> and I'd have guessed it was someone else
[20:13] <Randomskk> wait patiently
[20:13] <Upu> internet face palm
[20:14] <Randomskk> maybe griffonbot got the third email and just gave up
[20:14] <Upu> even Griffonbot is wtf
[20:14] <number10> :)
[20:14] <mfa298> just checked my email and my guess looks to have been correct
[20:14] <Randomskk> try to contain your surprise and delight
[20:14] <Darkside> but yeah, there is a seriously limited use case for the sondes
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside's blog is hosted in Japan, Flagfox says xD
[20:14] <Darkside> the gps isnt useful
[20:15] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: that is correct
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:15] <fsphil> hai
[20:15] <Darkside> the helical antenna is built into the PCB, so extrcting it is difficuly
[20:15] <Darkside> the 403mhz transmitter can't be re-tuned up without major work
[20:15] <fsphil> oh dear
[20:15] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "[UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[20:16] <griffonbot> Received email: gonzo_ "[UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[20:16] <Randomskk> there you go.
[20:16] <Randomskk> it was held up.
[20:16] <Darkside> if it was the RS92SGP's theres at least a possibility of getting somethin ginteresting
[20:16] <fsphil> so basically all we can do is launch them without batteries? :)
[20:16] <Darkside> the only possibly useful thing on the RS80s is the sensors
[20:16] <Darkside> if you can figure out how to use the temp sensor, that would be good
[20:16] <gonzo_> Yep, I don't want any
[20:16] <Darkside> as those babies measure down to -90 or so
[20:16] <KT5TK_QRL> maybe put a transverter on a Viasala Sonde?
[20:17] <Darkside> KT5TK_QRL: not worth it
[20:17] <Darkside> seriously
[20:17] <fsphil> you can't change what it transmits
[20:17] <fsphil> so it's not much use
[20:17] <chrisstubbs> would just the batteries be useful?
[20:17] <KT5TK_QRL> You're probably right
[20:17] <chrisstubbs> or do they get heavy with the water
[20:17] <Darkside> if its those water activsted ones, no
[20:17] <Darkside> well
[20:17] <Darkside> maybe
[20:17] <gonzo_> do they have batts as part of the kit?
[20:17] <Darkside> the water activated batteries are kind of cool
[20:17] <Darkside> you get about 15v out of them iirc
[20:17] <fsphil> they are a bit
[20:18] <gonzo_> they could activate an AR tx when they fall in the sea!
[20:18] <KT5TK_QRL> Maybe we could produce better weather by sending up modded Viasala Sondes ;)
[20:18] <Darkside> but yeah, the sensor board is th einteresting part
[20:18] <Darkside> i think its the same as is on the RS92
[20:18] <Randomskk> consign them to the trash already
[20:18] <Darkside> so it connects via a header
[20:18] <Darkside> take them off, work out how to read them
[20:18] <Darkside> and you have a nice accurate temp sensor
[20:18] <Darkside> that doesn't have much thermal mass
[20:19] <Darkside> i've seen vaisala sondes report temps of -85 degrees C
[20:19] <Darkside> around the tropopause
[20:19] <number10> Do I have a spelling mistake in an email script, as all those Vaisala emails have ended up in the trash box.. you know me with spelling.. maybe it has been detected as viagra
[20:19] <Darkside> i've done a RS80
[20:20] <Darkside> i just cant remember what sensor board it has
[20:20] <Darkside> the gps is similar to the RS92, just an older system
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[20:21] <griffonbot> Received email: Elmar PD3EM "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[20:22] <Randomskk> oh my god guys
[20:22] <Randomskk> brace
[20:22] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
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[20:22] <Randomskk> why does this keep happening to just some threads
[20:23] <Darkside> good lord
[20:23] <Darkside> he made sense
[20:23] <Darkside> escept for the MBED stuff, though its more sane than a PC104
[20:23] <Darkside> you know, i'm not even sure the RS80s transmit digital
[20:23] Action: mfa298 suspects the next email will either kill the tread or keep it going for ages
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[20:24] Nick change: mattltm_ -> mattltm
[20:24] <Darkside> its possible they transmit the old analog tones, but also mix in the gps signal into the WFM transmission
[20:24] <Darkside> not sure though
[20:25] <Darkside> oh wait nvm
[20:25] <Darkside> its 1200 baud FSK
[20:26] <Darkside> you can decode the data with sondemonitor
[20:26] <Darkside> but unless you can move it into the amateur band, its illegal to fly
[20:26] <gonzo_> I have a feeling that they are GSMK, at a reasonable rate and they send the gps as a raw time offset format, that you need to run calcs on the ground
[20:26] <Darkside> adn even then its illegal to fly in the UK anyway
[20:26] <Darkside> yes
[20:26] <Darkside> they sent down doppler measurements or somesuch
[20:26] <gonzo_> ah, yes poss 1200, or poss 2400 I've heard somewhere
[20:27] <Darkside> 2400 for the RS92s
[20:27] <Darkside> 1200 for the RS80s
[20:27] <Darkside> according to the datasheets
[20:27] <gonzo_> poss heard from you then!
[20:27] <Darkside> http://www.darkerview.com/darkview/uploads/Electronics/CD12-44-09292-DM.jpg
[20:27] <fsphil> they fly the RS92s from the site near here
[20:27] <Darkside> that transmitter looks very very similar to the one used in the analog sondes
[20:27] <Darkside> as in, the ones they launch here
[20:28] <Darkside> we were able to move those up to 420MHz, *just*
[20:28] <gonzo_> been a long time since I heard analogue ones
[20:28] <Darkside> it was outputting about -10dBm though
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[20:30] <DrLuke> free sondes?
[20:30] <DrLuke> How do I sign up for one
[20:30] <gonzo_> go to essex with a van
[20:31] <DrLuke> haha
[20:31] <DrLuke> Might need a swimming van then :)
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[20:33] <Darkside> j
[20:33] <griffonbot> Received email: Mark Jessop "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[20:33] <Darkside> k
[20:33] <Darkside> theres my reply
[20:34] <Randomskk> quite restrained
[20:34] <Darkside> factual
[20:35] <Darkside> http://www.hobeco.net/pdf/RS80_GPS.pdf
[20:35] <Darkside> look at the sensor specs
[20:35] <Darkside> they are *Really* good
[20:35] <Darkside> i just haven't figured out how to use the sensor board
[20:35] <Upu> you're correct the sensors are good
[20:35] <arko> EROOMDE: PM
[20:35] <Upu> the rest is junk
[20:35] <Upu> well hard to hack junk
[20:35] <Darkside> yes
[20:35] <Darkside> not worth the bother
[20:35] <Darkside> the sensors, however
[20:35] <Darkside> very much worth it
[20:36] <Darkside> and if there are 200 of them..
[20:36] <Darkside> will be a bitch to desolder them all
[20:36] <Darkside> well, desolder the module
[20:36] <Upu> if someone gets one send me a few I'm not replying :)
[20:36] <Darkside> lol
[20:36] <Darkside> oliver emailed me direct withthe same email
[20:48] <DrLuke> I'd also like one please
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[20:49] <M0TVU> Evening all
[20:49] <DrLuke> hey
[20:49] <M0TVU> Coding help needed if possible
[20:49] <fsphil> don't use cobol
[20:49] <DrLuke> Does anybody know what the transmitter looks like on the inside?
[20:50] <fsphil> hope that's helpful :)
[20:50] <DrLuke> haha
[20:50] <DrLuke> or brainfuck
[20:50] <DrLuke> or OOGA OOGA
[20:50] <DrLuke> or whatever it's called
[20:50] Action: fsphil is playing with python
[20:50] <DrLuke> I love python
[20:50] <DrLuke> simple and effective
[20:50] <gonzo_> playing with your python?!
[20:50] <fsphil> no not mine
[20:51] <fsphil> everyones
[20:51] <DrLuke> let's not go down that road ;P
[20:51] <fsphil> it's open source
[20:51] <DrLuke> oooh!
[20:51] <gonzo_> that does not make it better!
[20:51] <chrisstubbs> M0TVU, go ahead
[20:51] <fsphil> I still want to put { } around everything
[20:52] <fsphil> and end lines with ;
[20:52] <DrLuke> yeah M0TVU: don't ask to ask, just ask
[20:52] <M0TVU> I loved cobol
[20:52] <DrLuke> but then it turned 1980?
[20:53] <M0TVU> Oooh Burrows B80 machines
[20:53] <M0TVU> Anyway - Take a look at this - http://pastie.org/7142435
[20:53] <M0TVU> I dont do C
[20:53] <M0TVU> So pic basic it is ....
[20:54] <gonzo_> yuk
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[20:54] <M0TVU> Yeah I know before anyone says anything.
[20:54] <gonzo_> is it compiled or interpreted?
[20:54] <fsphil> you don't need that variable "tmp"
[20:54] <M0TVU> and it makes a difference because?
[20:55] <gonzo_> speed
[20:55] <fsphil> for bt = 0 to 8
[20:55] <fsphil> shouldn't that be
[20:55] <fsphil> for bt = 0 to 7
[20:55] <DrLuke> off by 1 errors are the most common programming errors
[20:55] <Randomskk> l17, you should XOR with (ch << 8)
[20:55] <Randomskk> l18 might be to 7, hard to say, depends on interpreter
[20:55] <fsphil> yea
[20:55] <Randomskk> l19 should AND with 0x8000 not 1
[20:56] <Randomskk> (then check if tmp is equal to 0x8000)
[20:56] <Randomskk> maybe your interpreter lets you say "If crc And 0x8000 = 0x8000", but then again maybe it doesn't support hex constants
[20:56] <M0TVU> this was the original c code
[20:56] <M0TVU> http://pastie.org/7142475
[20:57] <Randomskk> where was that from?
[20:57] <fsphil> who loops lik ethat
[20:57] <fsphil> who types like that .. me
[20:57] <M0TVU> It was sent to me from here
[20:58] <fsphil> this is the one you need: http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__util__crc.html#gaca726c22a1900f9bad52594c8846115f
[20:58] <Randomskk> (at the very bottom of fsphil's link)
[20:59] <M0TVU> It means nothing to me - gobbly gook
[21:00] <M0TVU> Why don't people comment code anymore - bring back cobol
[21:00] <fsphil> it's quite simple
[21:00] <fsphil> << is a bit shift to the left
[21:00] <M0TVU> if you know the syntax
[21:00] <fsphil> ^ is ...
[21:00] <fsphil> er
[21:00] <Randomskk> you always have to know the syntax
[21:00] <Randomskk> ^ is XOR
[21:00] <fsphil> xor :)
[21:00] <M0TVU> crc = crc ^ ((uint16_t)data << 8);
[21:01] <M0TVU> crc = crc xor and then ......
[21:01] <Randomskk> (uint16_t) is a cast to a 16 bit type
[21:01] <Randomskk> as data is 8bit
[21:01] <fsphil> whatever is in data is shifted left 8 bits
[21:01] <Randomskk> it's just a jump to the left
[21:01] <fsphil> 0x14 would become 0x1400
[21:01] <fsphil> you could also * 0x100
[21:02] <fsphil> as long as your variable is an unsigned 16-bit integer
[21:02] <M0TVU> randomskk can you add you comments to the paste and paste it back please
[21:02] <fsphil> not sure how basic would handle that overflowing
[21:02] <fsphil> you may need to AND 0xFF it before
[21:03] <M0TVU> It's not a problem I can shift left right and control bits as necessary
[21:03] <fsphil> and the rest is just xor'ing
[21:04] <fsphil> so you're not a million miles away already
[21:05] <M0TVU> Its real close in the calculation but of course it might as well be a million miles away
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[21:05] <gonzo_> the code I pasted earlier may be more understandable, as I don't do 16bit op's on the pic
[21:05] <gonzo_> like to keep things simple if a little verbose
[21:05] <M0TVU> I must have missed that gonzo
[21:06] <gonzo_> hang on, I'll find it
[21:07] <Randomskk> M0TVU: http://pastie.org/7142584
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[21:08] <M0TVU> I'll have a play with that one ...
[21:08] <M0TVU> Thank you
[21:09] <JonOd> I need Upu.
[21:09] <gonzo_> hmmm, looks like I did go for 16bit maths! Forgot all about that. Must have been feeling brave
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[21:09] <gonzo_> http://pastebin.com/Bxb8URRQ
[21:09] <Upu> interestig
[21:09] <Randomskk> gonzo_: I don't think you can really do it without that...
[21:09] <gonzo_> but it's simple code
[21:09] <gonzo_> I thought I would have domne it verbose using 8bit values
[21:09] <fsphil> you seem to have done it without branching
[21:10] <Randomskk> you'd have to do it with two 8bit values and shifting between them and it'd be really awful
[21:10] <Randomskk> I can't think of any good ways to do that
[21:10] <gonzo_> that was prob why it was doen with a word
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[21:10] <Randomskk> you've tested that code and it works?
[21:10] Nick change: Wlll_ -> WIlSld
[21:10] <gonzo_> anyway, that code is called for each byte
[21:10] <gonzo_> Flown 3 times
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[21:10] <fsphil> why don't you return the result, but put it into a global?
[21:11] <Randomskk> what does PIC do when you XOR a 16 bit and an 8 bit variable?
[21:11] <gonzo_> you preset _wCrc to 0xFFFF at the start and call the fn for each byte.
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[21:11] <Willdude123> Hi.
[21:11] <arko> hello
[21:11] <fsphil> ello
[21:11] <Upu> hey Will
[21:12] <gonzo_> I prefer to keep the stack use as small as poss
[21:12] <gonzo_> as the pic does not really have a stack
[21:12] <fsphil> fair point
[21:12] <Willdude123> Anything interesting happen in the 3 minutes or so that I left?
[21:12] <gonzo_> I like to manage the vars manually
[21:12] <Willdude123> Cause I'm that addicted to HAB. :)
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[21:12] <Randomskk> gonzo_: it looks like line 6 could be replaced with just wCrcNew = _wCrc >> 8;
[21:13] <Randomskk> wait
[21:13] <Randomskk> no
[21:13] <Randomskk> never mind
[21:13] <M0TVU> ok this line - crc = crc ^ ((uint16_t)data << 8);
[21:13] <Randomskk> M0TVU: pretend it just says crc ^= data << 8;
[21:13] <M0TVU> is the data shifted and then xor'd
[21:13] <Randomskk> yes
[21:13] <fsphil> yep
[21:13] <Randomskk> brackets indicate precedence
[21:14] <M0TVU> so its saying crc = crc shift data left and xor it
[21:14] <gonzo_> just checked, at the end I just use the _wCrc value directly (no buggering about needed)
[21:14] <Randomskk> crc = shift data left and xor it with crc
[21:14] <M0TVU> cool that makes more sense
[21:15] <fsphil> just wait until you try crc32 :)
[21:15] <M0TVU> pmsl
[21:15] <fsphil> thankfully crc-16 is enough
[21:15] <gonzo_> Randomskk, that line 6 assumes that the shift will wrap around. I poss could not be bothered to check
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[21:16] <gonzo_> so went verbose again
[21:16] <gonzo_> it makes it easier when you have to go digging into the resulting asm
[21:17] <Randomskk> yea, I just program in normal C on AVRs and never have to dig into the asm or worry myself about stack usage
[21:17] <Randomskk> it's nice
[21:17] <Randomskk> here's a nickel, get yourself a better microcontroller ;)
[21:17] <Randomskk> your crc code is neat though
[21:17] <fsphil> that it is
[21:17] <Randomskk> a nice example of how the underlying operations can be redone in what wikipedia calls, uhm
[21:18] <fsphil> nickel?
[21:18] <Randomskk> "faster (and arguably more obfuscated[2])"
[21:18] <gonzo_> I recall having to tease it out to make it more readable
[21:18] <gonzo_> I've been using PICs for a long time.
[21:18] <Randomskk> fsphil: dilbert reference, http://static.flickr.com/87/240803829_9212773615_o.png
[21:19] <gonzo_> even on the 386 intel I still have to go to asm to be sure what is really happening
[21:19] <Randomskk> even on the 386, goodness :P
[21:19] <fsphil> hah
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[21:19] <M0TVU> the << 8
[21:19] <Randomskk> sometimes for laughs I remember when I used compilers instead of interpreters and JITs
[21:19] <M0TVU> shift left 8 bits?
[21:19] <fsphil> yes
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[21:19] <Randomskk> yea, it's just a jump to the left
[21:19] <ibanezmatt13> Good evening :)
[21:20] <gonzo_> and with very limited ram on a processor, I still try and keep stack useage to a minimum. As there are no warnings of a stack overflow.
[21:20] <fsphil> I'm still all compilers here
[21:20] <gonzo_> I also carefully structure the code so I know the levels of nesting of functions at all times
[21:20] <fsphil> I'm trying to write ssdv in python for a laugh
[21:21] <gonzo_> that dates back to the early PIC 12's when you had a 3 level stack
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[21:21] <Randomskk> gonzo_: how do you feel about kids these days with their gigabytes of ram and gigahertz-a-penny CPUs and wanton use of JITs and dynamic weak typing and duck typing and monkey patching and dependency injection and so forth?
[21:22] <fsphil> gonzo_: do you have a lawn I shouldn't be on?
[21:22] <gonzo_> that is red rag to a bull to me. Pass the soap box!
[21:22] <gonzo_> hehe
[21:22] <Randomskk> I programmed a pic 12 once
[21:22] <gonzo_> no you are not having your ball back
[21:22] <Randomskk> never again
[21:22] <fsphil> lol
[21:23] <gonzo_> my first work when I got out of uni was doing safety critical stuff
[21:23] <chrisstubbs> Only ever done PIC in assembly and flowcode. Since ive been using arduino i never want to go back :P
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[21:27] <ibanezmatt13> just a quickie, during a HAB flight, do you run everything on one program or can you run multiple computer programs? Which do you normally do?
[21:28] <arko> i have redudancy
[21:29] <arko> i have my laptop running everything and a ultrabook
[21:29] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: and then a step to the right
[21:29] <arko> both running same stuff, with alternate programs
[21:29] <craag> He means on a pi payload.
[21:29] <arko> alternative*
[21:29] <Randomskk> with your hand on your hips!
[21:29] <ibanezmatt13> ok, thanks
[21:29] <gonzo_> and bring the knees in tight
[21:30] <ibanezmatt13> craag: I've been looking a little more at that code. It seems to be making a little more sense now
[21:30] <Randomskk> but it's the pelvic thrust!
[21:30] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: I was waiting for someone to do that for so long :P
[21:30] <craag> ibanezmatt13: I just meant it as an example of using the serial on the pi to talk to a gps.
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[21:30] <ibanezmatt13> is that hardware serial? or software serial?
[21:30] <craag> The rest of it you can ignore, it's all APRS encoding.
[21:31] <DanielRichman> :-)
[21:31] <fsphil> APRS makes babies cry
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[21:31] <ibanezmatt13> so which part of the code is for the GPS, where does the APRS begin?
[21:31] <craag> Hardware serial, the Pi has a hardware UART, so you just send it the text you want output, it sorts out the 1s and 0s.
[21:31] <fsphil> I'm pretty sure I saw it throwing stuff at a kitten too
[21:31] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: we put a performance of that on the cusf12 list, it was amazing
[21:32] <Randomskk> one person performed it wearing just a fig leaf, which was.. memorable
[21:32] <fsphil> !
[21:32] <fsphil> the dark side of CUSF?
[21:32] <Randomskk> CUSH is cambridge university scavenger hunt ;)
[21:33] <craag> ibanezmatt13: The lines you want to look at are the Serial.write, Serial.readline() and related.
[21:33] <DanielRichman> you appeared to have typo'd
[21:33] <Randomskk> lol
[21:33] <Randomskk> oh man
[21:33] <Randomskk> I always do that
[21:33] <ibanezmatt13> craag: thanks, I think that's why I was confused. It's as you said, much easier than I at first thought, thanks
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[21:34] Action: fsphil goes back to trying to program python like C
[21:35] <ibanezmatt13> So I understand that after I say serial.Serial('/dev/ttyAMA0', 9600), I then say serial.write(in here I know I can put a letter by like 'a' however, if I want to write a variable called a, do I just put serial.write(a)
[21:35] <M0TVU> What should the initial value of crc be?
[21:35] <craag> ibanezmatt13: yep
[21:35] <ibanezmatt13> excellent
[21:35] <fsphil> M0TVU: 0xFFFF
[21:35] <craag> ibanezmatt13: Are you using it to talk to a GPS, or an NTX2 transmitter?
[21:35] <M0TVU> It never AND's
[21:36] <ibanezmatt13> in the instance i just used, an NTX2. However, the GPS can't be much harder, can it?
[21:36] <fsphil> the only AND is when testing the high bit
[21:36] <craag> ibanezmatt13: In that case you'll want to change the 9600 down to 300.
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[21:36] <craag> So that you can receive the transmission with dl-fldigi,
[21:37] <ibanezmatt13> of course, yes.
[21:37] <Willdude123> How do you do SSDV with a Raspi?
[21:37] <Randomskk> ahaha
[21:37] <fsphil> one step at a time :)
[21:37] <Randomskk> I still have the video from one of the teams' time warp video
[21:37] <ibanezmatt13> when you say serial.write("$PUBX, 40..............") is that something to do with requesting a certain type of data from the GPS?
[21:38] <craag> ibanezmatt13: Yep, just ignore that for now
[21:38] <Willdude123> fsphil:You can't just write images to serial can you
[21:38] <Willdude123> ?
[21:38] <fsphil> you could but you'd need to receive all of it at the otherend
[21:38] <craag> Send "$$payload,...." to transmit to dl-fldigi.
[21:38] <fsphil> jpeg isn't very tolerant of missing or incorrect bytes
[21:39] <fsphil> well it depends where the error is
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[21:39] <ibanezmatt13> so when I get my GPS module, all I need to do is set up the serial with the command I used before, then do serial.write($PUBX..whatever)
[21:39] <ibanezmatt13> then what will that return
[21:39] <ibanezmatt13> something i can put into a string?
[21:39] <fsphil> the GPS module will transmit strings automatically without you sending anything to it
[21:39] <craag> ibanezmatt13: You'll want to look at the ublox MAX6 datasheet.
[21:39] <ibanezmatt13> ok, I'll take a look
[21:40] <craag> It'll send NMEA strings automatically without you having to do anything.
[21:40] <craag> The easiest thing would be to jsut receive those with readline() and parse the gps data out of them.
[21:40] <ibanezmatt13> so is there no need to use the PUBX ones?
[21:40] <arko> is there anything special you need to do to get it to work above 60,000ft?
[21:40] <fsphil> you'll need to send it some data to put it into avaiation mode
[21:40] <fsphil> but you can worry about that later
[21:41] <craag> ibanezmatt13: No I'd suggest don't use PUBX, I've stopped using it since writing that :)
[21:41] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil: thanks, from what I've seen that doesn't look easy
[21:41] <fsphil> it's not too bad
[21:41] <ibanezmatt13> craag: i'll stick to basics then. probably best
[21:41] <fsphil> although it's not obvious at first glance
[21:42] <ibanezmatt13> to me it just looks like sending a load of letters to it like, 0x3b, 8xg3 or something like that
[21:42] <fsphil> it's a binary packet, rather than a string of text
[21:42] <fsphil> so yea it'll be a series of numbers
[21:42] <fsphil> but similar idea
[21:42] <ibanezmatt13> is it the same packet for all UBlox gpss
[21:42] <fsphil> seems to be
[21:42] <fsphil> the 5 and 6 anyway
[21:42] <ibanezmatt13> thats good, one less thing to worry about :)
[21:43] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I'll be using the 6 i think
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[21:44] <ibanezmatt13> so in my code, will I not have to use a class or anything like that?
[21:44] <ibanezmatt13> for the gps and the radio?
[21:45] <craag> ibanezmatt13: That's just code structure, you can choose to if you want, but if you're not familiar with it then don't.
[21:46] <ibanezmatt13> ok, probably best. I'll stick to basics and as I gain experience I'll dip into more advanced programming
[21:46] <craag> I just did it for multi-threading because there's a UI bit in there iirc.
[21:46] <griffonbot> Received email: Ali al-Azzawi "[UKHAS] Re: Launch announcement: WASP-1, UK, 26th March"
[21:46] <fsphil> I seem to have made a python class .. though it doesn't do much yet
[21:46] <ibanezmatt13> when I send this up in July, how shall I go about sending my telemetry so that everyone can track my flight?
[21:47] <ibanezmatt13> I will have to write some code for that as well, yes?
[21:48] <craag> ibanezmatt13: Yes. Are you planning to send up an arduino based tracker as well, or jsut hte pi?
[21:48] <ibanezmatt13> just the pi for now
[21:48] <griffonbot> Received email: Ali al-Azzawi "[UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[21:48] <craag> A backup tracker would probably be a good idea.
[21:49] <gonzo_> it's worth asking to see if anyone is local who has a proven tracket to piggy back.
[21:49] <gonzo_> snap
[21:49] <ibanezmatt13> what shall i use for a backup tracker, another pi?
[21:49] <craag> no!
[21:49] <craag> A proven tracker as gonzo_ says.
[21:50] <ibanezmatt13> I'm lost. Do I need to buy two GPS modules?
[21:50] <craag> We might be able to lend you one for a backup
[21:50] <craag> For now, get your pi to transmit the GPS position to dl-fldigi for tracking.
[21:51] <ibanezmatt13> wow, that would be extremely helpful. Yeah, for now, I'll stick to the basics and take it step by step. My excitement is pulling me too far ahead ;)
[21:51] <gonzo_> a complete separate tracker is best. So you have a chance of recovering it if (when) something goes wrong on the Pi
[21:52] <_ed> ha snap ibanezmatt13 i know what you mean! how far along are you?
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[21:52] <gonzo_> ibanezmatt13, where are you located?
[21:52] <ibanezmatt13> well, I am writing all my notes up so that the moment i finish my school exams, I can buy everything and get going very quickly. I live in Wigan, near Manchester in NW England
[21:54] <_ed> nice, do you have a time frame in mind of when you might do it?
[21:54] <Willdude123> Maybe a GSM tracker?
[21:55] <ibanezmatt13> probably mid to late july. I could get going now but i've gotta get through my exams first unfortunately.
[21:55] <ibanezmatt13> I'll be on it full time in early july
[21:55] <craag> Cool
[21:55] <craag> Don't rush it.
[21:55] <craag> Especially the coding (been there, done that)
[21:55] <ibanezmatt13> I won't, don't worry
[21:55] <fsphil> yea. if you're still coding the morning of launch, you've done it wrong :)
[21:56] <fsphil> (I've done it wrong a few times now)
[21:56] <ibanezmatt13> that wouldn't be good :)
[21:56] <craag> fsphil: If only you'd told me that on the day :P
[21:56] <gonzo_> gsm will not work over a few 1000ft. They can work when they land, but only if they get a signal. And if they land on the ground (rather than get caught in a tree) the probability of getting GSM signal is reduced.
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[21:56] <fsphil> it's not
[21:56] <chrisstubbs> reserved some nylon cordage from homebase, will run some stress/strain tests and see if water causes any problems tommorow
[21:57] <chrisstubbs> is nylon prefered over normal string as it does not absorb as much water?
[21:57] <ibanezmatt13> i'm gonna have to sign out now guys. Thank you again very much for the help and I'll talk again soon. Good night :)
[21:57] <Randomskk> haha I've coded through the night and into the morning of the launch before
[21:57] <Randomskk> that was fun
[21:57] <fsphil> nite ibanezmatt13
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[21:57] <fsphil> the worst was coding as they where filling the balloon
[21:57] <Randomskk> chrisstubbs: it's just strong
[21:58] <Randomskk> fsphil: haha. or after!
[21:58] <Randomskk> payload attached and all
[21:58] <Randomskk> still downloading code
[21:58] <mfa298> craag: you mean coding in 48hrs was a rush? I thought that was standard coding practice :p
[21:58] <fsphil> lol nope, not been that late .. yet
[21:58] <gonzo_> coding against the clock is of, the failure is not having testing time
[21:58] <craag> mfa298: It had to be 36 hours to get the launch done.
[21:58] <gonzo_> ok
[21:58] <chrisstubbs> Randomskk, ah okay. I was worried about how much weight the thing would take on when it hit the humidity of the clouds
[21:59] <craag> Of course, that 36 hours having minimal sleep was what really killed the flight.
[21:59] <fsphil> sleep is important
[22:00] <fsphil> although I rarely get much before a flight
[22:00] <craag> Yep, helps you not to undercalculate lift on a pico by 10g...
[22:00] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
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[22:02] <M0TVU> Does anyone have a crc function that they could run for me? - Just pass it the letter M and tell me what happens at each phase
[22:03] <M0TVU> like this http://pastie.org/7143098
[22:03] <fsphil> did you try gonzo_'s?
[22:04] <M0TVU> I did but it seems to give wrong answer. I'm sure it's because the process is wrong
[22:04] <M0TVU> My process not his
[22:05] <M0TVU> I have done what is said in his comments but not working :-(
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[22:06] <M0TVU> My CRC for the lettter M works out as 42796
[22:06] <M0TVU> decimal
[22:06] <chrisstubbs> Howdy Hix
[22:07] <Elijah_> motvu, there are some fairly nice sites online that will let you run various CRC algorithms for testing purposes
[22:08] <M0TVU> I'm using this one http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/info/crc-calculation.html
[22:08] <fsphil> M0TVU: you're shifting the crc right by 8
[22:08] <fsphil> you need to shift the data not the crc
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[22:08] <M0TVU> ooops
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[22:10] <fsphil> not sure what's going on in line 20
[22:12] <fsphil> crc ^= data << 8
[22:12] <fsphil> you need to shift the data left 8 bits
[22:12] <fsphil> and xor the result with crc
[22:12] <gonzo_> Elijah_, there are some buggy sites out there though. I've been tripped by them
[22:13] <fsphil> the lammertbies.nl one is nice
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[22:19] <M0TVU> Ok that should make more sense http://pastie.org/7143237
[22:19] <Willdude123_> Evening.
[22:20] <Willdude123_> My IRC client is messed up.
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[22:22] <fsphil> that seems fine M0TVU
[22:22] <fsphil> but
[22:22] <fsphil> data is an 8-bit register, so shifting it left 8-bits might overflow
[22:22] <fsphil> in that bit you can re-use the tmp variable I guess
[22:22] <M0TVU> this gives the result for M as 54209
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[22:23] <fsphil> also check your loop is only running 8 times
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[22:23] <fsphil> I suspect it's running 9 times
[22:23] <fsphil> those are the only two things I can see wrong atm
[22:23] <M0TVU> Setting Data as a word gives 61746
[22:24] <M0TVU> GOT IT!!!!!!!
[22:24] <M0TVU> WOO HOOOOOO
[22:25] <fsphil> sweet
[22:25] <M0TVU> 30873 which equals 0x7899
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[22:25] <M0TVU> Over the moon
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[22:25] <M0TVU> Thanks guys it's very much appreciated
[22:25] <fsphil> np. interesting to see how things work in PIC land :)
[22:26] <fsphil> what was it in the end?
[22:26] <M0TVU> I have to know what its doing. I can't just cut & paste code. I have never done a CRC before and learned a lot from doing this one
[22:26] <fsphil> that you changed?
[22:26] <M0TVU> Changed the loop and set the data variable as a word
[22:26] <fsphil> a cleaner alternative might be to keep data as a byte
[22:27] <fsphil> put put the result of shifting it into tmp
[22:27] <fsphil> but put*
[22:27] <M0TVU> im going to try that next. I spotted that possibility
[22:27] <M0TVU> At least it's up and running.... Well for 1 character anyway - lol
[22:27] <fsphil> haha
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[22:28] <fsphil> just remember not to reset crc to 0xffff for each new byte
[22:28] <fsphil> and the rest should work nicely
[22:28] <M0TVU> Everything else works great - The RTTY is sweet and the GPS translation was a doddle
[22:29] <M0TVU> I have tested all that - I just couldn't get the dl-fgxcxzx wossit to work as I had no checksum it always stayed red
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[22:30] <M0TVU> Well i'd better go and see if the wife has left any furniture - Been in the shack all night
[22:30] <M0TVU> Once again thanks everyone!
[22:30] <fsphil> uh-oh!
[22:30] <fsphil> g'nite
[22:30] <M0TVU> nite
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[22:40] <KT5TK_QRL> Woot! My Si4464 finally transmits "something"
[22:41] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[22:42] <Upu> hey Thomas was going to ask how you were getting on with that
[22:42] <KT5TK_QRL> Don't have a dummy load here in my office, so it completely floods the RTL_SDR
[22:43] <KT5TK_QRL> I can switch it on for a few minutes so that you can see it
[22:43] <Upu> is it transmitting data ?
[22:43] <KT5TK_QRL> http://websdr.tkrahn.com:8901/
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[22:43] <KT5TK_QRL> No just cw
[22:43] <Upu> I don't have java :/
[22:43] <KT5TK_QRL> but that's good enough for now
[22:43] <KT5TK_QRL> since I modulate the vcxo
[22:44] <Upu> sounds good
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[22:44] <KT5TK_QRL> sorry, that's how the websdr works and I can't modify it
[22:44] <Upu> yeah thats ok
[22:44] <Upu> I just uninstall Java
[22:45] <Willdude123> Hi Upu
[22:45] <fsphil> I've started doing the same
[22:45] <Upu> ah wb Willdude123
[22:45] <craag> KT5TK_QRL: I thought the websdr software didn't work with rtlsdrs?
[22:45] <KT5TK_QRL> I'll send a screenshot. give me some minutes
[22:45] <KT5TK_QRL> It does since a few weeks
[22:46] <Willdude123> Websdr looks cool.
[22:46] <craag> Ah ok! I'm putting one up at the uni club here, and the sticking point has been the price of a funcube dongle.
[22:47] <craag> I'll have to pester Pieter to send me the new version.
[22:47] <fsphil> hehe python. sum(a list of numbers) just works
[22:47] <KT5TK_QRL> It's supposed to transmit 1 s CW beeps every 4 seconds
[22:48] <Willdude123> Are there no 434mhz capable ones in UK?
[22:49] <KT5TK_QRL> Not yet, but probably soon
[22:49] <craag> Willdude123: one, mine :)
[22:49] <Willdude123> Heh.
[22:50] <craag> http://websdr.thecraag.com:8901/ - Don't change the freq, testing FIZZLE atm.
[22:50] <Willdude123> If it works on the raspberry pi, I'll make one probably.
[22:50] <chrisstubbs> If my server was fast enough i would set one up, but its really struggling now with hourly and the other crap running on there
[22:51] <Willdude123> Does it work with dl-fldigi?
[22:51] <craag> It was quite a challenge getting a copy of the software tbh.
[22:52] <craag> Willdude123: It gives you the SSB-demodulated audio, you then need to pipe that into dl-fldigi.
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[22:52] <Willdude123> Aah.
[22:52] <Willdude123> Cool.
[22:55] <mfa298> If your interested in the sorts of things you could hear with something like the FunCube Dongle then some of the websdrs can be worth a listen. You get to hear what other radios can hear.
[22:55] <KT5TK_QRL> http://websdr.tkrahn.com:8901/Screenshot.png
[22:56] <craag> heh rtl-sdr overloaded a bit :)
[22:56] <KT5TK_QRL> Supposed to be on 144.390 MHz
[22:56] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes its 2 ft away
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[22:56] <KT5TK_QRL> from the 100 mW Si4464
[22:57] <KT5TK_QRL> All is connected to my computer, so I can't move it away atm
[22:57] <craag> Yeah, even my pro plus doesn't cope too well with 100mW on 869MHz.
[22:57] <KT5TK_QRL> I'll switch the transmitter off now
[22:58] <Upu> why don't you reduce the power in s/w ?
[22:58] <KT5TK_QRL> The whole reason for this experiment was to show that something comes out of the Si4464
[22:59] <KT5TK_QRL> I didn't get to that point yet
[22:59] <Upu> ah ok
[22:59] <Upu> does it default to 100mW ?
[22:59] <KT5TK_QRL> Seems so.
[22:59] <Upu> interesting
[23:00] <KT5TK_QRL> It actually has an automatic antenna tuner built in it seems
[23:01] <KT5TK_QRL> Will need to bring a dummy load to my office tomorrow so that I can keep experimenting
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[23:01] <KT5TK_QRL> I just got it working a few minutes ago
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[23:04] <KT5TK_QRL> In case someone is interested in this very rough test program: http://pastebin.com/F3JvgtWQ
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[23:09] <KT5TK_QRL> The hardware problem I've had before was that I connected the VCXO directly to the Si4464 Xtal input. This didn't work. nigelvh and I found out that if we have a series capacitor of 100 pF to block DC it finally works
[23:11] <Upu> Will pick your brains on that another day as its still on my list, however bed calls now night
[23:12] <KT5TK_QRL> Yes, it's late for you guys. Talk to you later.
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[23:22] <griffonbot> Received email: Frits PE2G "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Viasala Sondes free to a good home"
[23:23] <mattbrejza> clicking the first link in that email comes with the warning that sounds will start playing
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[23:26] <KT5TK_QRL> That's what a websdr is supposed to do
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[00:00] --- Thu Mar 28 2013