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[03:37] <heathkid> am I here?
[03:39] <nigelvh> I'm fairly certain the answer is maybe
[03:39] <arko> thats a deep question
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[04:05] <heathkid> hmm
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[06:41] <Upu> there is a first
[06:41] <Upu> spambot defacement of website by someone using IPv6
[06:49] <kokey> interesting
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[08:11] <cuddykid> morning al
[08:11] <cuddykid> all even
[08:12] <jonsowman> good morning
[08:12] <daveake> all odd more like
[08:12] <daveake> morning
[08:13] <cuddykid> :)
[08:14] <cuddykid> predictions have slightly improved for wed
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[08:43] <fsphil> great apod today: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130311.html
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[09:58] Nick change: daveake1 -> daveake
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[10:15] <anerDev> hi guys !
[10:15] <anerDev> 0D
[10:15] <anerDev> =D
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[10:34] <eroomde> hi anerDev
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[10:58] <griffonbot> Received email: MikeB "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Launch Announcement - Horizon 2 - 23rd March -
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[11:40] <cuddykid> launch not happening now on Wed
[11:45] <WillDuckworth> shame - what's up?
[11:47] <daveake> wind? snow?
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> light blizzard here
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[11:48] <gonzo___> light dusting during the night
[11:58] <fsphil> more here too
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> http://www.yr.no/place/United_Kingdom/Scotland/Markinch/hour_by_hour.html
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> bit chilly too.
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> I'd hopes of no more frost this year
[12:01] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth / daveake: company changed their mind and now want to send up a 3D printed object that will take a few weeks to produce! Typical - so, just delayed by a few weeks
[12:02] <cuddykid> I have a few flights planned for April too, so there could be quite a few from my way
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[12:02] <anerDev> guys !
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> hey
[12:03] <anerDev> Can I use tha copper wire into classic antenna wire for tv
[12:03] <anerDev> for make the diy yagi antenna ?
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> sure
[12:03] <anerDev> is < than 2 mm
[12:03] <anerDev> the tutorial say " Elements and the vibrator are made of 2-mm copper wire (# 12 AWG)."
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> though you should probably try for a sentence that we can understand first,
[12:04] <gonzo___> !
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> smaller is not a significant issue
[12:04] <anerDev> ah okok, I will try ! =D
[12:04] <mfa298> any wire will work for an antenna, the main issue you might have is how well it keeps its shape
[12:04] <gonzo___> and a sentence that does not include the word 'vibrator'
[12:05] <anerDev> in this page http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide the "yagi design calculator" link don't work
[12:05] <anerDev> go to this page http://www.information.com/?redir=frame&uid=www513dc6b76fe493.70717147
[12:06] <gonzo___> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=k7mem+dl6wu+calculator&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.k7mem.com%2FElectronic_Notebook%2Fantennas%2Fyagi_vhf.html&ei=wcg9UdnsCueL7AaZl4CACA&usg=AFQjCNEZTYtmLX_W8UdEBCncurN1Hf2P2Q
[12:06] <gonzo___> oops
[12:06] <fsphil> google's useless urls
[12:07] <gonzo___> www.k7mem.com/Electronic_Notebook/antennas/yagi_vhf.html
[12:07] <gonzo___> the lag here means it's gone before I realise the error
[12:08] <gonzo___> that is a very good design site and the dl6wu antennas are excelent for diy
[12:09] <fsphil> it used to be you could right click and copy the url
[12:09] Action: SpeedEvil sighs
[12:09] <SpeedEvil> it's impossible to get a usable link out of Google chrome e
[12:09] <SpeedEvil> for PDFs at least
[12:10] <anerDev> thank you guys !
[12:11] <anerDev> but someone should fix the link on the wiki
[12:13] <mfa298> that sounds like someone volunteering
[12:13] <fsphil> it did
[12:16] <anerDev> I'm using this tool, is fantastic
[12:16] <anerDev> +but for 433 Mhz yagi, the optimal boom lenght
[12:16] <anerDev> what's the optimal boom lenght ?
[12:17] <gonzo___> as long as you can manage
[12:18] <anerDev> one moment
[12:19] <gonzo___> thoyugh for HAB work, there is probably a limit, where you have enough gain to get good signals until it is over the horizon.
[12:19] <gonzo___> but as we experiment with higher data rates, then the extra gain will become useful
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> gonzo___: more than 6000km, and it sticks out a bit
[12:20] <anerDev> http://d.pr/i/3AuQ it say "Warning: The specified Boom Length of 1000 Millimeters is to Small. Boom Length should be greater than 2.2 Wavelengths."
[12:21] <mfa298> I suspect there's also a limit for DIY - partially based on skills/understanding and availalble test kit.
[12:22] <mfa298> anerDev: for 433MHz the wavelength is around 70cms (300/433) so two wavelengths is 140cm
[12:22] <anerDev> then the optimal boom leght is 140 cm ! =D
[12:23] <gonzo___> a lot of people get poor results when diy'ing designs from books etc. As a lot are very optimised gigh gain designs. That means that they are narrow band, and very sensitive to the dimensions.
[12:24] <anerDev> mfa298 now there isn't the above error ! http://d.pr/i/XvV5
[12:24] <anerDev> with boom leght 160 cm
[12:24] <mfa298> anerDev: that just means that 140cm is the minimum for that design/calculator.
[12:24] <gonzo___> The dl6wu desighs are quite wide band, so they tollerate little innacuracies, or changed in dimensions. So you have a far better chance of getting something that works
[12:24] <anerDev> mfa298 ahhh ok ok, thank you !
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[12:24] <anerDev> but I have a doubt about a field
[12:24] <anerDev> "Boom Diameter"
[12:25] <anerDev> if I have square boom
[12:25] <mfa298> a lot comes down to what other criteria you want a yagi to have (bandwidth, size etc)
[12:25] <anerDev> I put the side lenght ?
[12:25] <cuddykid> oh no, my radio control kit has departed from china apparently bound for the US .. rather than the UK!
[12:26] <fsphil> probably just a tracking error
[12:26] <cuddykid> hopefully
[12:26] <gonzo___> the boom diam is probably the sane as the square sectrion wiidth
[12:27] <gonzo___> as it will only be seeing the boom in one dimension
[12:27] <gonzo___> that 2.2wavelength limit is not that critical
[12:27] <gonzo___> it just means that the calcs will not be ideal. But 1mtr length will still get you a useable antenna
[12:28] <gonzo___> and 10ele 'feels' like a good size for HAB work
[12:28] <Laurenceb> http://www.silabs.com/products/mcu/Pages/low-power-32-bit-microcontroller-badger-board.aspx
[12:28] <Laurenceb> oh noes
[12:28] <Laurenceb> its called badger
[12:29] <anerDev> thank u gonzo___
[12:29] <Randomskk> lol badger
[12:30] <Laurenceb> that cortex is crazy low power
[12:30] <Laurenceb> annihilates msp430
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[12:32] <mfa298> I suspect that with a non metalic boom specified it's diameter has less impact anyway.
[12:34] <gonzo___> if you run the yagi calculator for different boom lengths, you can find that (above a certain length) adding elements does not change the dimensions of the preceding elements. mMeaning, you can make a yagi with removeable extra elements, which you can just slot on when required
[12:35] <fsphil> I've never understood why adding extra elements to a yagi increases the gain
[12:35] <gonzo___> you want to keep the boom as small as possible, if metalic. As the centre section of the elemebnts is whetre the max current will be
[12:35] <eroomde> it's like a higher Q oscillator fsphil, sort of
[12:35] <eroomde> hmm maybe that's a bad analogy
[12:36] <gonzo___> it's more metal in the field. Each re-readiating the signal back down to the driven element
[12:36] <eroomde> yeah, each of them re-radiate in a way according to their shape
[12:37] <eroomde> a bunch of parallel elements concentetrates that energy more out to the side
[12:37] <gonzo___> for 434meg I#s suggest a boom of 1/2"
[12:38] <mfa298> I keep thinking I ought to dig out my RAE notes as I'm sure they'd make more sense now.
[12:39] <gonzo___> the position of the element, will affect the phase. Also the length will do the same. An element shorter than 1/2wl will be slightly capacitive. So you will get a phase shift due to that capacitance
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[12:39] <gonzo___> so some yagi's have equal length elements and change the spacing, to get the correct interaction for constructine and descructive interference.
[12:40] <gonzo___> others will have equal spacing elemenets, but change the element lengths
[12:40] <gonzo___> some do a mix
[12:41] <gonzo___> (have a look on the BATC streamer archives, for Dud Charman's Antenna Circus)
[12:41] <gonzo___> will exoplain all, very graphically
[12:42] <fsphil> sounds violent
[12:44] <gonzo___> (sounds like it should start with Liberty Bell!)
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[13:07] <HixWork> anerDev, http://goo.gl/Gr1Wp it's pretty big download ~380MB but its the full ARRL Antenna handbook
[13:07] <HixWork> should give you everything you need
[13:12] Nick change: UpuWork_ -> UpuWork
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[13:33] <anerDev> thank u HixWork ! =DD
[13:40] <eroomde> =D is the new XD
[13:40] <eroomde> i suspect
[13:40] <HixWork> you're welcome anerDev
[13:41] <HixWork> thought he was saying i dont havde double D's, which is reassuring :)
[13:42] <griffonbot> Received email: John Tanner "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Downlink code help"
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[13:47] <S_Mark> Saw this on twitter. http://hackaday.com/2013/03/10/launching-a-glider-from-space/ anyone in the UK done this (is it even legal in the uk?)
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[13:51] <HixWork> not from what I've been reading S_Mark
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[13:52] <S_Mark> Do you know what the main issue is? Read somewhere the pilot has to be within a certain distance from the glider?
[13:53] <S_Mark> Could we get away with this with an ardupilot or similar, a la James May
[13:53] <eroomde> that probably would only make it harder
[13:54] <eroomde> when i say probably, that implies some uncertainty, which is incorrect
[13:54] <eroomde> it would definitely make it harder
[13:54] <HixWork> I asked about that specific program and the pilot had to be in visual range for the whole flight
[13:55] <HixWork> I believe rocketboy was involved in the tech side of it
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[13:56] <Laurenceb> he didnt make it autonomous
[13:56] <Laurenceb> so.. FAIL
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[13:56] <Laurenceb> [660;750;810;870;950]
[13:56] <Laurenceb> oop[s
[13:57] <S_Mark> Ah ok. Would be nice to pilot the payload back down though. What is cuddykid aiming to achieve with his HABE glider?
[13:57] <eroomde> autonomous flyback, i think
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[13:57] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:58] <Laurenceb> maybe i should try again
[13:58] <Laurenceb> and learn to tie knots this time round...
[13:58] <S_Mark> how does the CAA feel about this? Is this not drone territory
[13:58] <Laurenceb> shhhhh
[13:58] <eroomde> i suspect you'd upset them by asking them
[13:59] <kokey> remote: bb/acl: kokey is allowed. accepted payload.
[13:59] <eroomde> someone would have to official give permission and then be culpable
[13:59] <kokey> that's from git, but makes me think of HAB
[13:59] <Laurenceb> a big great conventional glider wouldnt go down well
[13:59] <eroomde> i posted exactly that the other day
[13:59] <Laurenceb> with us or them :P
[13:59] <eroomde> except s/kokey/edmoor
[13:59] <eroomde> from a push
[13:59] <S_Mark> no lol
[13:59] <eroomde> i was amused by the 'edmoore is allowed'
[14:00] <kokey> haha
[14:00] <eroomde> and wonder what the consequences will be on the day that i'm not allowed
[14:01] <S_Mark> Laurenceb, you say try again, have you attempted autonomous flyback?
[14:01] <HixWork> S_Mark, http://goo.gl/sHxkm 16:22 onwards
[14:01] <Laurenceb> S_Mark
[14:01] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:02] <Laurenceb> with a rogallo back in 2009
[14:02] <S_Mark> how did it go?
[14:02] <Laurenceb> when i actually built hab stuff...
[14:02] <Laurenceb> fairly well.. apart from the actual fly back to base bit
[14:03] <S_Mark> thanks HixWork
[14:03] <S_Mark> ah ok lol
[14:04] <eroomde> details Laurenceb
[14:06] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:06] <Laurenceb> well it was in stable flight all the way down
[14:06] <Laurenceb> and some of the flight it was under full control
[14:06] <Laurenceb> so i guess it went quite well
[14:07] <eroomde> well, it was passively stable right?
[14:07] <Laurenceb> just ended up going in ~200m radius arcs
[14:07] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:07] <eroomde> worth trying again
[14:07] <Laurenceb> yeah certainly
[14:07] <eroomde> lots of snow has just arrived
[14:07] <Laurenceb> ive done tens of hill launches with return to base
[14:08] <Laurenceb> where base == waypoint
[14:08] <Laurenceb> knot came undone in the winch servo on the actual flight
[14:09] <Laurenceb> i didnt belive it until i tried replicating on the ground
[14:09] <Laurenceb> but ~30minutes heavy vibration will untie even tight knots in nylon line
[14:09] <Laurenceb> you need to cover them in CA
[14:10] <HixWork> figure of eight rewoven, they never come undone, especially if you are tied to one and take a fall :)
[14:10] <Laurenceb> vibration where the load on the knot allows the line to intermittently go slack is the worst
[14:11] <eroomde> never use CA on anything structural with nylon
[14:11] <eroomde> never
[14:11] <eroomde> horrible
[14:11] <eroomde> wash your mouth out
[14:11] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:11] <Laurenceb> i havent actually tried that.. was just thinking
[14:12] <eroomde> also, knots?
[14:12] <eroomde> this is going to be all 3 yorkshiremen
[14:12] <S_Mark> any pics or website of this Laurenceb ?
[14:12] <eroomde> but for chute rigging, knots are bad, mmm'kay
[14:12] <Laurenceb> i used a couple of knots to stop the line slipping on the winch servo
[14:12] <eroomde> unless you have to use braid, in which you you have to use knots, use tubular stuff and do chinese finger terminations
[14:13] <eroomde> there is a total whiteout outside
[14:13] <eroomde> all of a sudden
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[14:13] <HixWork> We've had that intermittently all day on the Thames Effluent
[14:13] <Laurenceb> S_Mark: http://ukhas.org.uk/_detail/projects:imgp0191.jpg?id=projects%3Aparafoil_avr
[14:13] <HixWork> with a coupling biting northerly
[14:14] <eroomde> very biting
[14:14] <Laurenceb> thats prior to the radio going in
[14:15] <fsphil> suns out here after the light fall of snow earlier
[14:15] <fsphil> it looks like summer, but it's about 4c or something silly
[14:15] <eroomde> got a 5kW space heater in the office
[14:16] <eroomde> it's just about matching the 5kW heat transfer rate across the single-pane windows in the office
[14:16] <HixWork> heh
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[14:16] <HixWork> is that some good old WW2 Mod architechture eroomde ?
[14:16] <Laurenceb> S_Mark: http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:ukhas_glider_project:airframe
[14:17] <eroomde> HixWork: you betcha
[14:19] <HixWork> nice. Can't beat the MOD for some cold building action, I think that's why they stuck with woolen uniforms for so long :)
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[14:20] <eroomde> in the workshop we have a 30kW oil-fired space heater
[14:20] <eroomde> it's a beast
[14:20] <eroomde> but it's also currently not working
[14:20] <gonzo___> they just like the itchy sensation. Keeps the grunts on their toes
[14:20] <eroomde> so we have an 18kW electric fan heater as a backup
[14:21] <HixWork> gonzo___, hehe
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[14:23] <Laurenceb> 18Kw O_o
[14:23] <Laurenceb> must draw a few amps
[14:23] <HixWork> Is it possible to remove the MAX6 without hot air and without borking it?
[14:23] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:23] <Laurenceb> but you need the right temperature
[14:23] <Laurenceb> and to be fast
[14:23] <Laurenceb> and the right head
[14:24] <HixWork> las t time i tried it took an age to get it off and took some pads with it
[14:24] <eroomde> it would be a big pain with hout air, or some sort of way of heating a relatively large area, i fear
[14:24] <Laurenceb> id try 232C and low air flow with a large head
[14:24] <Laurenceb> then place the head right over the max6
[14:24] <eroomde> in your shoes i would visit ebay and treat myself to a chinese hot air gun
[14:24] Action: Laurenceb has a blackjack bk6000
[14:24] <mattbrejza> and a RCD
[14:24] <Laurenceb> sometimes im naughty
[14:25] <Laurenceb> and use scalpel blades as leavers
[14:25] <HixWork> http://i.imgur.com/i3RShuy.jpg
[14:25] <HixWork> is the last attempt
[14:25] <Laurenceb> if you do it right it'll pop off without taking pads with it
[14:25] <Laurenceb> as scalpel blades are pretty light
[14:25] <HixWork> don't have hot air at the mo though
[14:25] <Laurenceb> but they do tend to attract solder
[14:26] <Laurenceb> eeek
[14:27] <HixWork> I'm going to solder it onto a pcb when it arrives and test it to see if it's completely borked, maybe a bit of solder flow under will heal the gaps
[14:28] <HixWork> ive got 10 boards so worth a go as i don't need that many. the GPS is broken out too so i can test with just a board and 3v3 input
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[14:32] Action: HixWork looks at the above and thinks of Bob Marley's Exodus
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[14:41] <HixWork> would soldering a TO-220 3v3 reg to the casing of NTX2 help to keep some heat in it?
[14:42] <eroomde> if there was a decent amount of power being dissipated through it, perhaps yep
[14:42] <eroomde> but just insulated the ntx2 can help a lot
[14:43] <eroomde> one flight about 6 years ago we encased the ntx2 in a sausage of radiator insulator (foil-back foam) such that it because the size of a decent cumberland sausage, then put some heatshrink over the outside
[14:43] <kokey> interesing about the Sleepy::loseSomeTime(1000); // Instead of delay(1000);
[14:43] <eroomde> and the carrier was solid as a rocket on the flight, and got many apreciative comments from the ukhas trackers at the time
[14:44] <eroomde> which is to say, steve and james
[14:44] <HixWork> I'm planning on filling the housing with polystyrene and then making a little polystyrene box with a coutout to slide over the whole NTX2
[14:44] <eroomde> i think radiative insulation (foil) is a valuable addition too
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[14:45] <HixWork> hmm cover the lot in that too, some gold engine bay heatshield would have been good, but left McLaren now :/
[14:46] <HixWork> isn't kapton tape pretty good for that too?
[14:46] <eroomde> alumised kapton
[14:46] <eroomde> the gold stuff is alumised kapton
[14:46] <eroomde> the silver stuff is alumised mylar
[14:47] <eroomde> but the alumised mylar works fine
[14:47] <HixWork> probably outrageously expensive too
[14:47] <eroomde> the safety blankets you get at camping shops or that ket handed out at the end of parathons
[14:47] <eroomde> yes it is quite pricey
[14:47] <eroomde> vs thermal blankets
[14:47] <HixWork> though I have a friend at EADS-Astrium, might ask for some offcuts of insulation
[14:48] <HixWork> parathons eroomde :)
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[14:49] <eroomde> parathons!
[14:49] <eroomde> now there's an idea
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[14:49] <SpeedEvil> radiative insulation is of limited use
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> the t^4 term means the thermal loss drops quite niticably at 50c below ambient
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> actually, no, it's only half
[14:51] <HixWork> would neoprene as in wetsuit [is that closed cell] be better than polys
[14:51] <SpeedEvil> not really, OK'a quite heavy
[14:51] <eroomde> no idea
[14:51] <SpeedEvil> it's
[14:51] <eroomde> if you've got a polystyrene box, i'd just put a layer of alumised something or other on the inside and outside
[14:51] <HixWork> weight isn't a massive issue SpeedEvil
[14:51] <eroomde> and call it a day
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> at altitude, convection is very limited, but radiation and conduction are mostly unaffected
[14:52] <HixWork> so the better sealed, the more stable the temp?
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> broadly, yes.
[14:52] <kokey> is the CUSF predictor useful outside of europe?
[14:52] <eroomde> yes
[14:52] <eroomde> the whole world
[14:52] <eroomde> ever
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> kokey: globally OK
[14:53] <HixWork> heh
[14:53] <kokey> excellent
[14:53] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about rounding or other errors at -180w and the poles
[14:53] <UpuWork> HixWork https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Images/HAB/NTX2%20Insulation
[14:53] <UpuWork> no drift
[14:54] Action: SpeedEvil needs to make an insulation measuring probe.
[14:54] <kokey> nice, looking like launching around Cape Town should work well
[14:54] <UpuWork> hang on
[14:54] <kokey> wind tends to travel inland
[14:54] <eroomde> failed link?
[14:54] <UpuWork> let me imgur it
[14:55] <UpuWork> http://imgur.com/a/80swd
[14:55] <UpuWork> that
[14:56] <HixWork> yup, that's what i was thinking, though with a pent-roof as a nod to snoopy
[14:56] <HixWork> XD
[14:57] <eroomde> =DD
[14:57] <eroomde> !
[14:57] <HixWork> I'm sooo last week
[14:58] <eroomde> yea
[14:59] <fsphil> don't think that would be enough unsulation
[14:59] <fsphil> er
[14:59] <fsphil> insulation
[15:00] <HixWork> but i like that word, it can stay :)
[15:03] <fsphil> I suppose unsulation would be some kind of heatsink
[15:04] <daveake> I'm on an undiet
[15:05] <fsphil> unbelievable
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[15:06] Nick change: danielsaul -> Guest1832
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[15:17] <Laurenceb> http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j373/elliotech/japanesarefucked.gif
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[15:22] <HixWork> i can see whats coming here
[15:23] Nick change: ghoti_ -> ghoti
[15:24] <eroomde> Laurenceb: polite final request to stop posting that kind of thing into the channel
[15:24] <eroomde> emphasis on the 'final' bit
[15:25] <eroomde> everyone has asked friendlily and not so friendlily enough times now
[15:25] <eroomde> audition everything you write into the little irc box against the question 'would this be the kind of thing you'd see of 4chan' and if the answer is yes, don;t post it
[15:27] <eroomde> i'm doing this here rather than via PM so that it's unambiguous that you've been warned if people wonder why you get kicked
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[16:52] <arko> morning
[16:52] <jonsowman> nearly
[16:52] <jonsowman> :P
[16:52] <HixWork> G'Day
[16:53] <arko> back at work after dst stucks
[16:53] <arko> sucks*
[16:55] <HixWork> DAT as in Daylight Savings Time?
[16:55] <HixWork> or DST :/
[16:55] <HixWork> otherwise that'd just be weird
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[16:56] <arko> daylight saviings
[16:57] <HixWork> so US has gone forward already? WE don't shift for a couple more weeks
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[17:01] <fsphil> BST, British Summer Time. that's so optimistic :)
[17:01] <jonsowman> british slightlylesswintery time
[17:02] <arko> woah
[17:02] <arko> we just had an earthquake
[17:02] <arko> that was fun
[17:02] <jonsowman> :o
[17:02] <arko> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eventpage/ci15296265#summary
[17:02] <arko> too short though
[17:02] <jonsowman> that's cool
[17:02] <fsphil> or did someone just say no to Chuck Norris?
[17:02] <arko> yes
[17:02] <arko> or he went jogging
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[17:03] <fsphil> I live on probably the most geographically stable part of the planet
[17:04] <fsphil> it's very dull
[17:04] <fsphil> in a good way
[17:05] <arko> we get fun earthquakes now and then
[17:05] <eroomde> none while i was there
[17:05] <arko> and are told we are going to die when the "big one" hits
[17:05] <eroomde> disappointingly
[17:05] <arko> eroomde: sorry dude
[17:05] <fsphil> I'd love to experience a small quake
[17:05] <arko> maybe im messed up in the head, but i love earthquakes
[17:05] <arko> fsphil: THE EARTH MOVES
[17:05] <arko> it's awesome
[17:05] <fsphil> indeed
[17:06] <arko> except the northridge earthquake a few years ago
[17:06] <arko> that was terrifiying as all hell
[17:07] <mattbrejza> if you wanted to experience a quake go to the natural history museum and stand on the earthquake simulator
[17:07] <arko> i was a kid too, so that didn't help
[17:07] <mattbrejza> probably tyhe same
[17:07] <arko> for a physical simulation
[17:07] <arko> but when it's your room thats shaking it's a bit unreal
[17:07] <fsphil> I'll definitely be going there before the conf
[17:08] <eroomde> i get an email from dropbox saying i should consider upgrading because i've run out of space
[17:09] <eroomde> huh? I'm using like 3GB out of 50GB
[17:09] <arko> hah nice
[17:09] <HixWork> 50? Paid for?
[17:09] <arko> did you get a samsung device and score that 50?
[17:09] <eroomde> ah... I build the datalogger host application and left it running overnight in my ropbox file
[17:09] <NigeyS> arko, your quake has actually triggered a tsunami warning to :|
[17:09] <eroomde> HixWork / arko : yes free with samsung device
[17:10] <arko> NigeyS aw lame
[17:10] <HixWork> ahh, thought I was doing well on 10
[17:10] <arko> eroomde: nice! me too! when i got my tablet and then got an additional 20 when my school ranked up on dropbox signups
[17:11] <fsphil> think I'm still on whatever the default is
[17:12] <Zuph> I had to upgrade to paid :( Trying to get owncloud to work, but it isn't.
[17:13] <eroomde> it's quite useful
[17:13] <eroomde> i just use it for everything nerdy now
[17:15] <HixWork> you can get 5GB from sugarsynch too fsphil
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[17:15] <HixWork> or maybe its sugarsync not sure
[17:15] <HixWork> but an extra 5GB anyhow
[17:16] <HixWork> and there's google drive too, though no need for that yet
[17:17] <arko> if you are at a uni you can score some moew gb
[17:19] <jonsowman> 18.6GB :D
[17:19] <jonsowman> CU did quite well in the 'space race'
[17:20] <HixWork> If you are at Uni you can also ask a professor to try and score you a free Saleae USB Logic Analyzer - apparently they give them out..... sadly I am not
[17:20] <HixWork> bummer
[17:20] <HixWork> http://www.saleae.com/professors
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[17:22] <eroomde> they are good
[17:23] <HixWork> but free is even better, my budget has been hammered lately, bought far too much stuff
[17:23] <eroomde> yes indeed
[17:24] <eroomde> i'd get the 16 if you're close to pulling the trigger on one
[17:24] <eroomde> better buffering and can operate at 1.8V
[17:24] <HixWork> shhhhhhhhh
[17:24] <eroomde> and 1.8V is the new black round here
[17:24] <HixWork> I can't hear you
[17:24] <HixWork> la la la la la
[17:25] <arko> oh man the 16 rocks
[17:26] <daveake> Plus you gt 8 extra probes for when you lose the 8 you need
[17:27] Nick change: Guest44918 -> nigelvh
[17:28] <eroomde> that's also true
[17:28] <eroomde> nd the software is so nice
[17:28] <eroomde> really it's the most useful bit of test equipment after a scope for electronics development, especially where microcontrollers are involved
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[17:29] <eroomde> hey HixWork, I just took a random still-life picture for you
[17:29] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/XP0xwjw.jpg
[17:29] <HixWork> don't make me do a laurenceb on you :P
[17:30] <arko> damn its like loading images in the 90's
[17:30] <jonsowman> lol
[17:30] <arko> what did you shoot this with?
[17:30] <eroomde> leica M240
[17:30] <arko> what
[17:30] <arko> no
[17:31] <arko> seriously?
[17:31] <HixWork> your white balance os out ;p
[17:31] <eroomde> i am pulling your leg
[17:31] <eroomde> my x100
[17:31] <eroomde> hand held, high ISO
[17:31] <arko> ok i thought so
[17:31] <HixWork> farewell merry folk, time to make good my escape
[17:31] <arko> haha
[17:31] <eroomde> with the salae?
[17:32] <HixWork> from the werkhaus
[17:32] <HixWork> bbl
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[17:32] <arko> eroomde: see the new test spacex did?
[17:32] <eroomde> yes
[17:33] <arko> pretty cool stuff
[17:33] <arko> wonder what the next step is
[17:34] <eroomde> higher longer faster
[17:34] <arko> probably moving around i assume
[17:34] <eroomde> maybe relight supersonically
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[17:34] <arko> ohhh
[17:34] <eroomde> play with control transonically
[17:34] <arko> so much to do
[17:35] <eroomde> tonnes
[17:35] <arko> can't wait to see a full test with reentry
[17:37] <arko> you get your boards sent out?
[17:37] <eroomde> no, doesn't have to be till midweek now
[17:37] <eroomde> james thought the deadline was a week sooner than it actually was
[17:37] <arko> ah!
[17:37] <arko> thats right, you mentioned this, getting some extra time to sleep on it
[17:38] <eroomde> this is her currently
[17:38] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/b7ZDQU9.png
[17:38] <eroomde> i'm working on another one now
[17:38] <eroomde> then i'll have a review of them with james before sending them off
[17:39] <arko> is that a buck regulator that's creating the 15/-15 ?
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[17:39] <eroomde> sort of
[17:39] <eroomde> but not really
[17:39] <eroomde> it's got transformers too
[17:39] <arko> oh ok
[17:39] <eroomde> as it needs to be galvanically isolated
[17:39] <arko> oh good
[17:40] <eroomde> it's a little all-in-one dc/dc converter from traco
[17:40] <arko> i was wondering about noise
[17:40] <eroomde> well there's an LC filtering output stage to its left too
[17:40] <eroomde> as you can see
[17:40] <arko> yeah
[17:40] <eroomde> and the switching freq anyway is happily in the high CMRR region for the instrumentation amps
[17:41] <arko> and it's shielded well as a device i assume
[17:41] <arko> oh sweet
[17:41] <arko> very clean layout btw
[17:41] <eroomde> yep
[17:41] <eroomde> http://uk.farnell.com/tracopower/thd-12-2423wi/converter-dc-dc-12w-15v-0-4a/dp/1284260?Ntt=THD12-2423WI
[17:42] <eroomde> same series as i used for the smart igniter controller: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/8364771362/in/photostream
[17:42] <eroomde> the silver brick
[17:42] <arko> wow, that's costly
[17:42] <eroomde> compared to passive sure
[17:42] <eroomde> but not bad money for what it does and the board area it takes up
[17:43] <eroomde> and my time
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[17:43] <arko> im not too familiar with power reg prices :P
[17:44] <eroomde> well, this being a development project for a customer, the actual hardware cost is basically noise
[17:44] <eroomde> at least for the PCBs
[17:44] <eroomde> 32 decent quality pressure sensors are a bit spendy
[17:44] <arko> i can imagine
[17:45] <eroomde> i do commend those little potted DC/DC units to your attention though, especially if you need isolation
[17:45] <eroomde> they're great
[17:46] <arko> you recommended them a while back when i was designing my hab board
[17:46] <arko> then i realized i dont need so much power
[17:46] <eroomde> also not so useful for a hab
[17:46] <eroomde> as what do you need isolating from?
[17:47] <eroomde> although they *are* mega useful or things like pyrotechnics
[17:47] <eroomde> as you wont get a current path back through a chassis to the battery
[17:47] <eroomde> assuming you have some metalwork in the chassis, which you might
[17:47] <eroomde> certainly for rockets
[17:47] <eroomde> well, quite plausibly for rockets at any rate
[17:48] <arko> oh wow
[17:48] <arko> that's some nice isolation
[17:48] <eroomde> indeed
[17:48] <eroomde> well, that's why it's desirable
[17:48] <arko> i think at the time i was looking for efficient and wide voltage range
[17:48] <arko> but it seems these are gold for iso
[17:48] <eroomde> in our case it's because you have things like metal pressure transducers screwing into metal plumbing fittings on metal rockets
[17:49] Action: arko bookmarks
[17:49] <eroomde> the whole rocket engine is conductive
[17:49] <eroomde> so you really want isolation between all the datalogging bits and valve actuator bits and so on, or you're going to get the ground-loop scenario from hell
[17:49] <arko> oh god
[17:49] <arko> yeah
[17:50] <eroomde> and also where you do have isolation, have capacitative coupling between input ground plane and output ground plane (with a decent 2kVcap) so you don't end up sending RF (or at least psu switching freq) crud between things
[17:50] <eroomde> that's actually recommended in the example groundplane layout provided in the app notes for those converters
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[17:51] <arko> interesting, what freq is that?
[17:51] <eroomde> whenever you hear about problems and delays with retrofitting new avionics into Chinooks or whatever it was recently, it's almost always ground loops and lots of AC on signal lines and so on
[17:51] <arko> the switching,i thought it was usually in kHz
[17:51] <eroomde> just because they don't do things like this
[17:51] <eroomde> it is KhZ
[17:52] <arko> won't you need a fairly long trace to get radiation
[17:52] <arko> ?
[17:52] <eroomde> but khz is enough to not take direct loops back to ground
[17:52] <eroomde> no not really
[17:52] <eroomde> eg
[17:52] <eroomde> http://www.maximintegrated.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5450
[17:52] <eroomde> have a look at the simulation results
[17:53] <arko> wow!
[17:53] <arko> dude, this is great
[17:53] <eroomde> that's a good read, that app note
[17:53] <arko> i glance over, im bookmarking to read tonight
[17:53] <arko> thanks
[17:53] <arko> :)
[17:54] <eroomde> np
[17:54] <arko> this is the sort of stuff i really need to learn more about
[17:54] <eroomde> yeah
[17:55] <eroomde> doing it for real teaches you all this stuff the hard way
[17:55] <arko> im getting into the rf world more and more, but it feels like a very very deep pool
[17:55] <arko> heh i bet
[17:55] <eroomde> well, i think 99% of what you'd ever need is in that app note really
[17:55] <arko> makes sense
[17:55] <eroomde> + a few old seadog tails about how you found 15HZ AC on the fuel level indicator line
[17:55] <eroomde> tales*
[17:56] <arko> http://wiki.032.la/images/thumb/Drone_newboard.PNG/600px-Drone_newboard.PNG
[17:56] <arko> i designed that a few years ago
[17:56] <arko> two bucks and they were damn noisy
[17:56] <eroomde> i found out earlier that if you don't want to do an actual capacitor between ground plane 1 and ground plane 2
[17:56] <eroomde> where they are nominally isolated
[17:56] <arko> the acc/gyro were right next to them, turns out you do learn the hard way :P
[17:57] <eroomde> you can overlap them by a bit of different layers in the pcb
[17:57] <eroomde> and thus basically make your own capacitor using the pcb board as the dialectric
[17:57] <arko> yah!
[17:57] <arko> i found thats also how you get higher gain smd antennas
[17:57] <arko> and less loss on traces leading to connectors
[17:57] <eroomde> yeah, when doing your own switching regs, definitely follow the recommended grounding layout!
[17:58] <arko> make it 4 layers and use the fr4 as a dielectric
[17:58] <arko> eroomde: that was a fun lesson to learn :P
[17:58] <arko> gyro kept spitting out garbage
[17:58] <arko> placed the same chip on a breakout far from noise, it worked fine
[17:59] <arko> good times
[17:59] <eroomde> here is the smps i did for that igniter controller
[17:59] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/vNpPH94.png
[17:59] <eroomde> you can see it lives on its own little island
[18:00] <eroomde> and the rest of the board's gnd connects right next to the GND side of the final output cap
[18:00] <eroomde> and the gnds on %V line connects on the left side of the final output cap
[18:00] <eroomde> and that stops the crap leaking out from the rest of the swithcing circuit
[18:00] <arko> oh wow
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[18:01] <eroomde> er
[18:01] <eroomde> the board's 5V line commes off the from the left of the output cap
[18:01] <eroomde> typing fail sorry
[18:01] <eroomde> commes
[18:01] <eroomde> sigh
[18:01] <arko> i figured
[18:01] <arko> input from the right?
[18:02] <eroomde> yep
[18:02] <arko> big trace goes in, small trace goes out :P
[18:02] <eroomde> big trace is mostly to feed the dc dc brick to the north of the smps
[18:02] <arko> i need to step up my game now, this is some clean work
[18:02] <eroomde> you can see it carries on on the bottom copper
[18:02] <arko> yeah
[18:03] <eroomde> that dcdc brick in the case provides a 3.3V, 15W supply to the glow plug
[18:03] <eroomde> which is sued in the igniter
[18:03] <eroomde> used*
[18:03] <arko> oh ok, im like, i didnt know it could take legal action
[18:04] <eroomde> hence the isolation, as you don't want some of that current returning to ground via, say, the shield in the twisted pair cable from a pressure sensor somewhere else on the engine
[18:04] <arko> man, those are some harsh conditions for electronics, no wonder there is so much isolation concern
[18:04] <eroomde> that would be \badness 10000
[18:04] <arko> right
[18:04] <eroomde> er
[18:04] <eroomde> ratsnest 2 airwires
[18:04] <eroomde> bottom left of the png
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[18:05] <arko> uh oh
[18:05] <eroomde> hmm....
[18:05] <eroomde> well they obviously weren't important as the board works!
[18:05] <arko> are they mini ones?
[18:05] <eroomde> yes probably
[18:05] <arko> like some trace that is routed
[18:05] <eroomde> intrapad
[18:05] <arko> but it's like 1 mil away from the center of the pad
[18:05] <arko> yeah
[18:05] <arko> hate that
[18:05] <arko> those scare me
[18:05] <arko> i just hid all layers
[18:06] <arko> except airwire
[18:06] <arko> and go hunting
[18:06] <eroomde> yep
[18:07] <eroomde> ps that layout was basically just directly lifted from the recommended layout in the IC's datasheet
[18:07] <eroomde> i'm not conjouring woowoo from ancients
[18:07] <eroomde> but the principle is to keep that inductor/cap/diode current loop nice and tight
[18:07] <arko> yeah, it's better than trying to figure it out and testing you know?
[18:07] <arko> some engineers figured it out, and threw it in the datasheet
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[18:08] <eroomde> zackly
[18:08] <arko> ain't nobody got time to reinvent the wheel
[18:08] <eroomde> true dat
[18:08] <arko> back to work with me
[18:09] <arko> got a lot on the plate today
[18:09] <nick_> Inventing the wheel would be quite easy now I've seen a few.
[18:09] <eroomde> foodwise or stuffwise?
[18:09] <arko> heh, wish it was food
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[18:11] <eroomde> i once went to visit the technician in the department who apparently knew lots about emc design
[18:11] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/1n1A0.gif
[18:11] <arko> hahaha!!
[18:11] <arko> love that gif
[18:12] <arko> eroomde: that actually what our section does at jpl
[18:12] <arko> some of the most knowledgeable people about emc testing
[18:12] <arko> it's all env (temp/pressure/etc) and emc
[18:12] <eroomde> it does become proper woo
[18:12] <arko> msl was a huge pain
[18:13] <eroomde> can imagine it's fiercely complicated
[18:13] <arko> tons of sensitive instruments
[18:13] <eroomde> even gyroc has galvanic isolation on every digital comms line between boards in different bits, aswell as on power
[18:13] <eroomde> and that's nothing compared to msl
[18:13] <arko> heh
[18:13] <arko> yeah, those guys are gods
[18:13] <eroomde> the ADUM chips from analog are absolutely wonderful
[18:13] <arko> i have no clue how they did it
[18:13] <eroomde> i commend them with my life
[18:14] <arko> im going to be interviewing a lot of them before ukhas
[18:14] <arko> gonna try to learn as much as possible this next school quarter since it's a lighter school load
[18:14] <arko> then give a talk about it
[18:14] <arko> emc&env
[18:15] <arko> btw, if you have questions, just email me
[18:15] <eroomde> hard real world stuff
[18:15] <arko> once i get it ITAR approved you will know :P
[18:15] <eroomde> lol
[18:15] <eroomde> so like next year some time
[18:15] <arko> that's optimistic haha
[18:15] <arko> but seriously, email me with any questions
[18:15] <eroomde> ty
[18:15] <eroomde> i will
[18:16] <arko> literally asking msl design analysis and env testing team questions :)
[18:16] <arko> most of whom are now on the 2020 rover
[18:16] <arko> sadly, i actually need to get that info approved for release
[18:17] <griffonbot> Received email: Kevin Glinka "[UKHAS] Re: OERNEN-II University of Osnabruck (Germany) launch"
[18:19] <eroomde> interesting
[18:20] <gonzo___> amsat na use the route of publishing everything, so it's in the public domain, and they can then talk to people like amsat dl (who designed the stuff that the US guys are working on. Silly eh!(
[18:20] <griffonbot> @stratodean: Our GPS and radio tracker is in the food freezer for testing. #excusemepeas #ukhas [http://twitter.com/stratodean/status/311179746870456320]
[18:23] <eroomde> we need arko's pressure-cooker emc chamber
[18:23] <eroomde> freezers are not thermal representative
[18:23] <arko> heh
[18:23] <eroomde> env chamber*
[18:23] <arko> could be emc one day :)
[18:24] <eroomde> how are you gonna cool it?
[18:24] <arko> im sad that i wont have time to do a pressure test for HABEX2
[18:24] <arko> dry ice
[18:24] <arko> im going to get dry ice, put some towels on it, put the electronics inside, then wrap it again
[18:24] <arko> have temp probes too
[18:24] <arko> to monitor
[18:24] <arko> all the parts are on their way
[18:24] <eroomde> dry ice outside the pressure cooker or inside?
[18:24] <arko> no pressure cooker this time
[18:25] <arko> but next time, on the outside
[18:25] <eroomde> if you drop the pressure with it inside it might all just sublime away and prevent you getting the right pressure
[18:25] <eroomde> ah right
[18:25] <arko> otherwise i get a very dangerous situation ;)
[18:27] <arko> i will do testing for habex2.5
[18:28] <arko> the pico i will be doing
[18:28] <eroomde> good idea
[18:28] <arko> this time will only be cold just due to time constrant, since i haven't finished the chamber
[18:28] <arko> lots of parts to still find/buy
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[18:35] <eroomde> there are lots of youtube vids on hampson-linde air liquifiers
[18:35] <eroomde> a small pump and some copper tubing and you'd be laughing
[18:36] <eroomde> could make a copper coil jacket round the edge of the pressure cooker and get the wall temperatures down as low as you'd like
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[18:37] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:38] <eroomde> heL_Lo
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> launch video http://youtu.be/1dm2Ykfuq7Q
[18:40] <eroomde> nice vid
[18:40] <eroomde> very smooth and pretty launch
[18:42] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:42] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
[18:42] <eroomde> it sounds like a pretty textbook flight really
[18:42] <eroomde> and the cutdown worked exactly as intended
[18:43] <eroomde> you've got a lot right first time that a lot of people don't
[18:43] <griffonbot> Received email: Kevin Glinka "[UKHAS] Re: OERNEN-II University of Osnabruck (Germany) launch"
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:44] <mattbrejza> you also picked a wind free day
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> probably that was due to testing
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> the day was luck
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> I mean if I look out right now there is a snowstorm
[18:45] <eroomde> that makes things harder
[18:45] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:45] <Willdude123> Hi.
[18:45] <eroomde> hi Willdude123
[18:46] <Willdude123> Anyone know where to get an iRobot Create in the UK?
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[19:00] <eroomde> Willdude123: maybe ask on #sparkfun
[19:02] <arko> i wonder if it's some rule iRobot has about shipping out to the uk. Looks like most of the regular sources, including iRobot, don't ship international
[19:07] <eroomde> they wouldn't talk to me at a careers fare at MIT
[19:07] <eroomde> just because I spoke english properly
[19:07] <eroomde> (no offence arko)
[19:08] <arko> none taken
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[19:16] <arko> aww man i just realized i wont see one of my good friends until later in the year :( he moved to sunderland
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander> arko, check this http://youtu.be/1dm2Ykfuq7Q
[19:17] <arko> saw that
[19:17] <arko> very nice launch
[19:17] <arko> hah
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander> and http://www.physik.uni-osnabrueck.de/
[19:18] <arko> heh, i can somewhat understand this german
[19:18] Action: arko attempts to read too many german tech papers
[19:18] <arko> it's easy to understand when half the words are the same
[19:19] <arko> "Stratosphäre" wonder that word means :P
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:19] <arko> congrats on that btw
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
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[19:22] <arko> btw, you guys should realllly change the word for speed limit
[19:22] <arko> i can't imagine ever finishing reading that word before reading the actual number following
[19:22] <eroomde> surprised they even have one
[19:23] <arko> LOL
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[19:26] <anerDev> guys !
[19:26] <arko> awww yeahhh
[19:26] <arko> just got my technora
[19:26] <arko> this hab rope ain't snapping
[19:27] <arko> can't wait to do breaking strength tests
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> arko, ?
[19:29] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: technora
[19:29] <eroomde> like a fedora
[19:29] <eroomde> but with a tethered balloon
[19:29] <arko> Höchstgeschwindigkeitsbegrenzung
[19:30] <arko> technora, for that little mars rover touch ;)
[19:30] <arko> it's also one of my favorite materials
[19:30] <eroomde> so if you want to take your hat off to a passing young lady, you simply release the string holding it down to your head
[19:30] <arko> along with vectran
[19:30] <eroomde> the only problem is that they're single use
[19:30] <arko> what is?
[19:30] <eroomde> so if there are lots of young ladies around it can be expensive
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> arko, no one says that word
[19:30] <arko> haha
[19:30] <arko> Lunar : im teasing :P
[19:31] <anerDev> fsphil there is
[19:31] <anerDev> ?
[19:31] <anerDev> or SpeedEvil
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[19:33] <chrisstubbs> looks like all of yesterdays gps lock problems were just caused by my window. it worked fine just on my desk in the summer months
[19:34] <chrisstubbs> maybe cold glass blocks GPS
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[19:34] <chrisstubbs> put it out on the roof and it got a fix after about a min. and changed to flight mode successfuly :)
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[19:45] <craag> chrisstubbs: Good to hear!
[19:50] <chrisstubbs> my ds1820 mostly returns -999
[19:50] <chrisstubbs> gets the right temp every now and again
[19:51] <chrisstubbs> but im not worried as long as the tracker works
[19:51] <daveake> Well it is cold at the mo
[19:51] <bertrik> 1-wire bus problem?
[19:51] <chrisstubbs> daveake lol it returnd 1 degC earlier from the garden
[19:51] <chrisstubbs> most likley bertrik, i think the -999 is coded into the library i used for if there is an error
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[19:56] <mfa298> chrisstubbs: I think certain types of glass (or possibly the gas in double glazing) can have an impact on radio signals
[19:58] <chrisstubbs> mfa298 what gets me is it worked fine indoors a few months ago. Oh well, i guess GPS is unpredictable like that
[19:58] <chrisstubbs> Willdude123, planning a project with the irobot or just something to mess about with?
[19:59] <mfa298> various weather conditions can impact radio as well. It could just be you had a weak (but good enough) signal a few months ago and it's now just the other side of good enough
[20:02] <chrisstubbs> mfa298 the snow probably didnt help!
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[20:14] <Ciemon> Evening all.
[20:15] <Upu> evening
[20:16] <Ciemon> I wonder if there are any plans to put together "the simplest payload possible" for beginners
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[20:16] <Upu> well
[20:16] <Upu> NTX2 + Arduino + GPS is usually about as simple as it gets
[20:17] <Ciemon> I ask because from what I've read here, and from what I'm trying to learn, and from watching Sierra004 fight with his project it really isn't simple
[20:17] <Upu> well its not *that* complex
[20:18] <Upu> I think the hardest bit is reading the GPS and turning that into something you can transmit
[20:18] <Upu> the radio is just a modification of the blinking LED program
[20:18] <Upu> have you seen the Wiki on connecting the NTX2 to the Arduino ?
[20:18] <Upu> *other microcontrollers are available..
[20:18] <Ciemon> Yes
[20:19] <Upu> thats the part I believed would be the most complex when I started this
[20:19] <Upu> and it wasn't
[20:19] <Ciemon> Do you have a background in electronics or software?
[20:19] <Upu> well I work in IT
[20:20] <Upu> so no not really
[20:20] <Ciemon> That's encouraging :)
[20:20] <Upu> it took me a while to get my head round it
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[20:20] <chrisstubbs> Upu were you into radio/electronics before you started habbing?
[20:21] <Upu> negative
[20:21] <Upu> well ok fairness
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[20:21] <Upu> I have a degree in Electrical (note not Electronic) engineering which I've never used
[20:21] <Ciemon> I've been playing with radios for decades, but this is completely different
[20:21] <Upu> I did a year working at ICI Wilton Research Center programming and interfacing Lab robots
[20:21] <Upu> which is really all the experience I have
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[20:22] <Ciemon> I guess I wondered if there was merit in some sort of pico-payload kit that just works. That would help people to learn and get a pico in the air.
[20:23] <chrisstubbs> cool :)
[20:23] <Ciemon> Just thinking out loud
[20:23] <Upu> well no see I want people to understand whats happening
[20:23] <Upu> make their own
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[20:23] <Upu> it would be fairly trival to make a "Habduino"
[20:23] <Upu> but then people would just throw it in a box, not understand the implications, never make it on here and probably end up doing something dumb
[20:23] <Ciemon> It's trivial if you get it :D
[20:24] <Upu> took me a year
[20:25] <chrisstubbs> Ciemon its worth learning, and you can get as much support as you need on here. Extremley helpful having a group of people that know how these things work
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> yeah and it took me five years :)
[20:25] <Ciemon> Oh I know :)
[20:26] <Ciemon> LL.. that's dedication, have you got the next flight planned yet?
[20:27] <Lunar_Lander> not yet :)
[20:28] <mfa298> to some extent the people who already have programming experience may not have much of a head start as embedded programming is fairly different to more normal programming
[20:29] <mfa298> I think the C knowledge I'm using for this stuff was covered in a C for Engineers course at Uni
[20:34] <Sierra004> Still trying to get basic GPS to RTTY working. Pretty sure my code is fine. Can anyone point out any glaring errors with this setup? http://i.imgur.com/89MGnm2.gif I get really weird sort of distorted/ patchy RTTY when I get a lock, however if I pull the 5v out of my GPS it comes through really clear until the GPS shuts down. Any Ideas?
[20:38] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[20:38] <Upu> Sierra004
[20:38] <Upu> you're using software serial
[20:38] <Upu> which is probably mucking up the timing of the RTTY
[20:38] <Sierra004> Oh really?
[20:38] <Upu> just before you transmit call cli();
[20:38] <Upu> when finished call sei();
[20:39] Action: NigeyS bans software serial
[20:39] <NigeyS> there we go, fixed :P
[20:39] Action: Upu slams the hammer down
[20:39] <Upu> motion passed
[20:39] <NigeyS> yey!
[20:39] <Sierra004> I have a hardware serial module on the way
[20:40] <NigeyS> upu you are right about the ublox and cyclic not being very ... consistent, it's all over the place
[20:40] <Sierra004> I saw on the ublox guide it said that software serial was really iffy
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[20:41] <Sierra004> but some people seem to have no issues with it if you start changing buffer sizes
[20:41] <Upu> it may work
[20:41] <Upu> personally I'd stick with hardware
[20:41] <Upu> which you can do with your board
[20:42] <Upu> just stick 2 1k resistors on the RX&TX lines
[20:42] <Upu> 1 sec
[20:42] <Sierra004> I think I may have seen that, yeah
[20:42] <Upu> http://www.billporter.info/how-to-add-multiple-uart-connections/
[20:43] <Sierra004> Ok so on the code end I'm just changing Software serial(4,5) to (0,1)
[20:44] <Upu> no loose all references to software serial
[20:44] <Upu> just call
[20:44] <Sierra004> oh right
[20:44] <Upu> Serial.being(9600);
[20:44] <daveake> No you need to remove all mentions
[20:44] <Upu> begin..
[20:44] <daveake> then you need to shred all backups that mention it
[20:44] <daveake> then burm them
[20:44] <daveake> burn
[20:44] <Upu> burm them all!
[20:44] <arko_-> eroomde: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Yt5L5TlGM
[20:44] <arko_-> i see what you mean by next step
[20:45] <Sierra004> Right ok thanks, I'll check that out.
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[20:49] <Sierra004> So running my uBlox Tx, and Rx through 1k's to pins 0 and 1, then ditching software serial?
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[20:50] <daveake> ditch, bin, burn, detonate, remove,e xtract, kill
[20:51] Action: chrisstubbs hides
[20:51] <Sierra004> Ok, Hardware like that is correct though?
[20:52] <daveake> yes, use the hardware as intended :)
[20:52] <daveake> btw your other possible issue is using more than the 50mA available on the Arduino 3.3V line.
[20:53] <Sierra004> Is that the same with the 5v?
[20:53] <daveake> Dunno look it up
[20:53] <daveake> I only use one Ardunio - the mini pro - and that has a much higher 3.3V limit and doesn't have 5V
[20:54] <arko_-> eroomde: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8-mKS0rBL_A#t=126s
[20:54] Nick change: arko_- -> arko
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[20:57] <Sierra004> looks like 150mA to 300mA
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[21:12] <chrisstubbs> Sierra004 that _should_ be enough. It might be worth hooking a multimeter up in series with the power supply if possible
[21:12] <chrisstubbs> to check if you are close to that figure
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[21:18] <Sierra004> gps is pulling 60-40mA, NTX2 is pulling 15-30mA
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[21:19] <chrisstubbs> Sounds about normal to me. looks like the problem is just down to softwareserial then
[21:19] <Sierra004> Going to give that a go shortly
[21:20] <Sierra004> thank you
[21:22] <chrisstubbs> Just to add to how much GPS confuses me. I turned my 808 cam on and put it in the payload, only for the number of satelites to go up!
[21:24] <gonzo___> the constelations are changing constantly
[21:24] <gonzo___> poss just a coincidence
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[21:25] <chrisstubbs> gonzo___ i would hope so! think i will still ton-foil sheild it just incase but there dosent appear to be any problems
[21:25] <chrisstubbs> im sure that will all change come launch day
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[21:59] <SpeedEvil> one problem with that form of shielding.
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> it needs a rather bigger balloon to cope with ton foil.
[22:01] <arko> is it worth purchasing a helium tank?
[22:01] <griffonbot> @daveake: Video showing a #raspberry_pi sending images via a pair of radio transmitters for my next Pi In The Sky flight http://t.co/1M24dIrOxP #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/daveake/status/311235516521664512]
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[22:05] <Upu> thats how you comply with the law whilst innovating :)
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[22:06] <daveake> 20mW without breaking a single law :)
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[22:06] <Upu> what Dave just posted on Twitter
[22:06] <nosebleedkt> my new flight system
[22:06] <nosebleedkt> https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/69241_609016409112407_804574152_n.jpg
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> yay!
[22:07] <nosebleedkt> :P
[22:07] <Upu> custom board nosebleedkt ?
[22:07] <nosebleedkt> yes
[22:07] <nosebleedkt> seeedstudio
[22:07] <Upu> dual TX ?
[22:08] <nosebleedkt> 4
[22:08] <nosebleedkt> :D
[22:08] <nosebleedkt> 4 uarts
[22:08] <Upu> 4 radios ?
[22:08] <Darkside> whats the silver module?
[22:08] <nosebleedkt> 1 uart for GSM shield. 1 uart for GPS. 2 uarts for TTL CAMS.
[22:08] <Upu> no I meant the radios
[22:08] <nosebleedkt> 3 Radios. GSM, 433Mhz, 144Mhz
[22:08] <Upu> ok
[22:09] <Darkside> what 2m module is that?
[22:09] <Upu> and the µC ?
[22:09] <nosebleedkt> ATmega1280
[22:09] <griffonbot> @PD3EM: RT @daveake: Video showing a #raspberry_pi sending images via a pair of radio transmitters for my next Pi In The Sky flight http://t.co/ ... [http://twitter.com/PD3EM/status/311237435277336576]
[22:09] <nosebleedkt> Darkside, for live image transmission 500mw
[22:09] <nosebleedkt> :P
[22:09] <Darkside> nosebleedkt: what module is it..
[22:09] <nosebleedkt> chipset?
[22:09] <bertrik> nice
[22:09] <Darkside> link
[22:09] <Darkside> whatever
[22:09] <nosebleedkt> wait
[22:10] <Darkside> i'm after a 2m FM module
[22:10] <nosebleedkt> http://www.uctronics.com/wireless-transceiver-module-p-831.html
[22:10] <Upu> 70cms
[22:10] <nosebleedkt> and there is a sparkun library for it
[22:11] <nosebleedkt> it has the same chipset
[22:11] <Darkside> i don't care if it has a library
[22:11] <nosebleedkt> SPI
[22:11] <Darkside> ]that doesnt look like a 2m module
[22:11] <nosebleedkt> lol
[22:11] <Darkside> it says that it's a 70cm module
[22:11] <nosebleedkt> you have the link :D
[22:11] <Darkside> oh
[22:11] <nosebleedkt> whatever :)
[22:12] <Darkside> so that one is the 70cm one, and the 2m one is the radiometrix module?
[22:12] <Darkside> yes, i see
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[22:12] <Darkside> you have a TX1H
[22:12] <Darkside> 300mW APRS i'm guessing
[22:12] <Lunar_Lander> hi Darkside
[22:12] <Upu> TX1H is 100mW
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[22:12] <nosebleedkt> yes
[22:13] <Darkside> Upu: oh yeah
[22:13] <Upu> looks good nosebleedkt
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[22:13] <Upu> what GPS chipset ?
[22:14] <Darkside> NEO-6M
[22:14] <Darkside> http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/images/product/GPS%20bee_01.jpg
[22:14] <nosebleedkt> havent tested a lot yet
[22:14] <Darkside> bit off using a breaout for it
[22:14] <Darkside> why not just put a NEO-6 module on the PCB?
[22:14] <Upu> oh yes
[22:14] <Darkside> same with the BMP085
[22:15] <Darkside> why have all this stacking when it can just go on the PCB
[22:15] <nosebleedkt> my friend just solder it and i upload a little program to test it
[22:15] <nosebleedkt> Darkside, reuse
[22:15] <nosebleedkt> if something is broken i dont have to desolder all the time
[22:15] <nosebleedkt> and i make lots of breaks :)_
[22:16] <Darkside> make less breaks?
[22:16] <nosebleedkt> Me noob ^^
[22:16] <Darkside> well you managed to make a pcb design
[22:17] <nosebleedkt> im good at designing not at electronics :p
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[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside, btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dm2Ykfuq7Q&list=UUwLbAytnYpEVbryZurOL8cg&index=1 :)
[22:27] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt9zSfinwFA
[22:28] <eroomde> ^
[22:28] <Darkside> i never get tired of that video
[22:28] <Darkside> it is excellent
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[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> well the problem is
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[22:31] <eroomde> you
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> the original video is flipped
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> so I have turned it around and it unfortunately looks like this
[22:31] <arko> eroomde: see those tests?
[22:31] <eroomde> neinderpunken?
[22:31] <arko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8-mKS0rBL_A#t=126s
[22:32] <arko> and
[22:32] <arko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Yt5L5TlGM
[22:32] <arko> Darkside: i love mario and fafa
[22:32] <chrisstubbs> those things are incredible!
[22:34] <fsphil> impressive
[22:34] <eroomde> oh i have seen those
[22:34] <eroomde> i saw the relight one when i visited masten
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[22:34] <arko> my friend recorded that first video
[22:34] <eroomde> ahowoffs )
[22:34] <arko> wow, i bet you my friend knows him
[22:35] <eroomde> knows who?
[22:36] <arko> [15:35:23] <@arko> tacitus: do you know one of those mohave guys with the name masten?
[22:36] <arko> [15:36:18] <tacitus> not personally
[22:36] <arko> aww
[22:37] <arko> another friend of mine who is going to be helping with the hab
[22:37] <arko> smart dude
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[22:37] <eroomde> david masten
[22:37] <eroomde> met him briefly
[22:37] <eroomde> but the tour was by reuben garcia
[22:37] <arko> ah cool
[22:37] <arko> right, the sf guy?
[22:38] <arko> with the plane
[22:38] <eroomde> nowt to do with sf as far as i know
[22:38] <eroomde> he's masten cto
[22:38] <arko> oh snap
[22:38] <arko> nvm
[22:42] <arko> aww <tacitus> just saw them at that one launch
[22:42] <arko> small world heh
[22:42] <eroomde> it is
[22:42] <arko> ugg, working out the logicistics of recovering in the desert is a bitch
[22:42] <eroomde> they are an inspiring lot
[22:43] <eroomde> a really pretty modest operation
[22:43] <eroomde> doing awesome things
[22:43] <eroomde> helicopter
[22:43] <eroomde> easy
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> arko: though at least no trees.
[22:43] <arko> heh, it's hot with no roads
[22:43] <arko> and very very big
[22:44] <arko> haha, i wish we had a heli
[22:44] <arko> might have to
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[22:45] <eroomde> light aeroplane tho
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[22:47] <arko> i wish
[22:47] <arko> too expensive
[22:47] <eroomde> phone a friend?
[22:49] <arko> haha
[22:49] <arko> helicopter friends no longer have helis
[22:49] <arko> both of them
[22:49] <arko> same reasons too
[22:49] <arko> wives didn't like it
[22:50] <arko> pshh
[22:50] <arko> always ruining fun
[22:54] <arko> airplane friend says it's too expensive
[22:54] <arko> $100/hr just for rental
[22:54] <arko> yikes
[22:54] <arko> at that rate we can just launch two and hope for one of them to land closer :P
[22:55] <arko> Darkside: how do you guys recover if it's somewhere with no roads?
[22:55] <arko> what time do you launch and when do you recover?
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[22:55] <Darkside> arko: usually launch 10am or so
[22:55] <Darkside> recovery a bit befor elunchtime
[22:55] <Darkside> if its somewhere with no roads, it's usually in a farmers field
[22:55] <arko> cool
[22:55] <Darkside> so we go find the farmer
[22:56] <Darkside> and get permission to enter the field
[22:56] <Darkside> either with cars, or byw alking
[22:56] <arko> mojave has no life :(
[22:56] <arko> that makes sense
[22:56] <Darkside> if we can't find the farmer, we usually walk in
[22:56] <arko> i wish we had farmland to do that
[22:56] <daveake> arko Try not to land in Indian country then :)
[22:56] <arko> heh
[22:57] <arko> kk, i'll do my best
[23:03] <griffonbot> @daveake: Yes, my next #raspberry_pi tracker will fly inside a foam raspberry. Well, it had to be done .... #UKHAS http://t.co/dKpe96ETIi [http://twitter.com/daveake/status/311250949152849920]
[23:03] <arko> http://www.bakersfieldhelicoptercharters.com/index.php
[23:03] <arko> eroomde: perhaps this
[23:03] <fsphil> it's all gone a bit Pi shaped
[23:03] <arko> heh, time to get out a credit card
[23:03] <mfa298> fsphil: :D
[23:04] <daveake> :)
[23:06] <chrisstubbs> laters guys :)
[23:06] <mfa298> I think I'm going to work out how to use all 6 input channels on one soundcard with dl-fldigi. Otherwise it's going to get a bit mad with lots of soundcards with some of these payloads
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[23:24] <griffonbot> Received email: Adam Dunville "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Downlink code help"
[23:25] <jonsowman> "Newbies gonna noob" ?
[23:25] <daveake> Newbies gonna ignore explicit advice?
[23:25] <jonsowman> probably
[23:25] <Sierra004> no I was suggesting I'm the noob
[23:25] <Sierra004> not you!
[23:26] <daveake> Well you had the advice re s/w serial
[23:26] <daveake> Plenty of people have been bitten by it beforee you
[23:26] <Sierra004> I just feel like a total moron because you are all fireing good advice at me and I'm just being thick
[23:27] <daveake> Just swap s/w serial to real salt of the earth reliable h/w serial
[23:27] <arko> do you guys recommend against soundcard decoding with a ham radio vs. ezcap?
[23:28] <daveake> no
[23:28] <eroomde> probably recomment for the ham radio over the ezcap
[23:28] <daveake> yes
[23:28] <eroomde> maybe
[23:28] <arko> ok
[23:28] <arko> i figured
[23:28] <Sierra004> daveake: Would that mean a complete change of code I assume?
[23:28] <arko> i've had much better luck with audio cards
[23:28] <arko> and a ham with a great antenna
[23:28] <arko> these ezcaps love noise
[23:29] <eroomde> yes, ezcaps are a happy recent novelty
[23:29] <arko> i have it on a usb extention
[23:29] <daveake> Nope. Just replace the s/w serial calls with "Serial.xxx"
[23:29] <eroomde> but ham rig when it counts
[23:29] <arko> cool
[23:29] <arko> thanks
[23:29] <daveake> And move the wires of course
[23:29] <mfa298> definetly the ham rig into a soundcard.
[23:29] <Sierra004> Seriously?
[23:29] <arko> good to know the experience of others matches my experiences
[23:29] <daveake> Yes
[23:29] <Sierra004> I must have spent the last hour making it really complicated for myself
[23:30] <arko> http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/prog/wilderness/wa/map_wa.html
[23:30] <arko> looks like most of our landing zone is ok
[23:30] <arko> http://i.imgur.com/SxVmGyi.png
[23:30] <arko> getting mighty close to launch day :|
[23:30] <daveake> The downside of h/w serial is that you can't program via USB if the h/w serial is connected to a GPS. Coulpe of ways round that best of which is to get an AVRISP programmer
[23:30] <fsphil> my ft817 can tolerate a lot more nearby noise than the SDR dongles
[23:31] <daveake> Other way is to temporarily disconnect the GPS Tx line with a switch
[23:31] <Sierra004> Connecting tx and rx of the gps to 0 and 1 through 1k's like you mentioned earlier?
[23:31] <daveake> Oh, Upu mentioned that, not me. I've not used that option myself.
[23:31] <mfa298> most of my radios can pick up a lot more than the rtl-sdr does on it's own (I've not got a hab amp to try with that)
[23:32] <eroomde> but that's fine, using the 1ks
[23:32] <Darkside> hey eroomde
[23:32] <Darkside> i have something i want to run by you
[23:32] <eroomde> especially if flirting with shortage
[23:32] <Sierra004> oh ok, thank you both
[23:32] <Darkside> eroomde: i'm working on an atmospheric noise simulator
[23:32] <eroomde> to borrow the sexual analogy inspired by the last line of your email, "'m confused by the act of using the Arduino's own UART. "
[23:32] <fsphil> fcd+habamp is more sensitive than ft817 on its own
[23:32] <fsphil> but I've not yet tried ft817+habamp
[23:32] <eroomde> I'm*
[23:33] <Darkside> which simulates the HF noise caused by lightning strikes
[23:33] <Sierra004> I'm beginning to wish I had done this as a hobby thing instead of for my disertation
[23:33] <eroomde> cool
[23:33] <eroomde> Sierra004: i have been there
[23:33] <Darkside> eroomde: my current assumption is that i can simulate burst noise as white noise, with a time-varying amplitude
[23:34] <Sierra004> Been doing this for 11 hours-ish today
[23:34] <mfa298> considering for the flight of pico I was getting it until it hit the horizon / fresnel zone I'm not sure if it's worth adding more onto the 817
[23:34] <Darkside> as in a narrow bandwidth (like a HF channel) the impulse noise caused by a lightning strike looks white
[23:34] <fsphil> yea
[23:34] <eroomde> sounds fair
[23:34] <Darkside> cool
[23:35] <Darkside> i found a good paper which did some work on modelling the inter-strike time distribution
[23:35] <Darkside> ended up being a poisson-like process, which a fitted intensity function
[23:35] <fsphil> lightning has a weird quietening effect on FM signals
[23:35] <eroomde> could try poisson on the distribution of the whiteness
[23:35] <eroomde> if that's not too fishy
[23:35] <Darkside> the same intensity function form works for the burst-duration
[23:36] <eroomde> oh
[23:36] <eroomde> you just said all that
[23:36] <eroomde> i was talking rather than listening
[23:36] <eroomde> i do that
[23:36] <Darkside> so i can generate a dataset of when burst events are suppoed to happen
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[23:36] <Darkside> what i'm working on now is how to shape the burst event
[23:37] <Darkside> lemme upload a wave file, hold on
[23:37] <Darkside> i take it you have matlab/octave handy?
[23:37] <eroomde> no
[23:37] <eroomde> it's bed time
[23:37] <Darkside> blah
[23:37] <eroomde> nfw i'm getting into sigproc now
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[23:37] <eroomde> i am reading evgeny morozov be rude about someone
[23:37] <eroomde> then going to bed
[23:37] <Darkside> grr i'll generate the bloody rms plot then
[23:37] <Darkside> lol
[23:39] <eroomde> i've seen an rms plot
[23:40] <eroomde> he draw squiggles on unitelligable and change 2D axes to demonsrate perniciousness of copyright vs time
[23:40] <eroomde> chaning*
[23:40] <eroomde> changing*
[23:40] <eroomde> and was generally a bit aspie
[23:40] <Darkside> http://imgur.com/a/R6KK5
[23:45] <Sierra004> Annnd now its just humming
[23:45] <Sierra004> probably way to late to be messing with this right now
[23:45] <fsphil> I do some of my best work in the am
[23:45] <daveake> hum as in mains hum?
[23:46] <Randomskk> fsphil: right! 1am-5am is my peak hours for productivity
[23:46] <Sierra004> through the radio
[23:46] <Randomskk> lectures at 10 mean I never get anything done
[23:46] <fsphil> Randomskk: indeed, although I have a wall at 00:30, if I get past that I'm fine
[23:46] <Randomskk> yea I can't typically start til 1
[23:47] <Sierra004> My pin 13 is constantly high.. slightly
[23:47] <daveake> Pin 13 isn't the best choice as it has an LED to drive
[23:48] <Sierra004> I did think about that, I think the reason I chose it was so that I could see it doing things
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[23:48] <daveake> Aside from that, you need to figure out if the code that's supposed to be moving that pin low/high is being run or not
[23:48] <daveake> e.g. it might be stuck waiting for GPS data
[23:49] <Sierra004> When I occasionally get a lock through my skylight it does start doing things
[23:50] <Sierra004> but its all nasty
[23:50] <Sierra004> perhaps using the 1 pin method is just a bad idea unless used for testing
[23:51] <daveake> No the 1-pin idea is just fine that's not the problem
[23:51] <fsphil> 1-pin is easier
[23:51] <fsphil> less to go wrong
[23:51] <Sierra004> ok
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[23:52] <Sierra004> oh I haven't defined my pins
[23:52] <daveake> which pins?
[23:52] <Sierra004> 0, 1
[23:52] <Sierra004> for gps
[23:52] <daveake> you don't
[23:53] <Sierra004> ok
[23:53] <daveake> Those are the h/w uart
[23:53] <Sierra004> ok I'll note that down
[23:53] <daveake> You can't choose any other pins for that on that processor they're fixed
[23:54] <daveake> You just do Serial.begin etc
[23:54] <Sierra004> instead of .write?
[23:54] <Sierra004> .print sorry
[23:54] <daveake> Er, no, begin() opens the port for use. See http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/serial
[23:55] <daveake> That shows all the functions you need ... i.e. open the port, send, receive
[23:55] <Sierra004> oops I had it beginning twice at 9600 and once at 4800
[23:55] <daveake> And those replace the s/w serial equivalents
[23:56] <Sierra004> ok thank you
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[23:57] <HANoob> Sorry if this was covered in the HAB Supplies Wiki but I haven't been able to find it anywhere. Is there example code for using the ntx2 with the level converter board and arduino? I'm having a lot of issues getting it send the gps coords.
[23:58] <Sierra004> What GPS are you using? Sounds like you have the same problem as me
[23:59] <HANoob> I'm using the ublox max6 breakout
[23:59] <Sierra004> lol same as me
[23:59] <Sierra004> I've been crying all over this channel trying to get it to work
[00:00] --- Tue Mar 12 2013