highaltitude.log.20130204

[00:05] <kai__> anyone using anything other than aprs for tracking?
[00:05] <fsphil> most uk flights use rtty on 70cm kai__
[00:06] <kai__> ah
[00:06] <lz1dev> and some go for phones with gps
[00:06] <lz1dev> or portable gps trackers
[00:06] <fsphil> indeed, and spot satellite beacon
[00:06] <kai__> right on
[00:07] <lz1dev> alternatively, there have been plans to train a monkey to do star navigation
[00:07] <lz1dev> however there is a problem of downlinking the position
[00:07] <kai__> so for rtty you just use a "aprs like" protocol?
[00:07] <lz1dev> shouting is not viable
[00:07] <kai__> lol
[00:07] <Randomskk> kai__: not really. we transmit ascii strings using 7/8bit ascii and rs232 signalling
[00:08] <kai__> how are you mapping it?
[00:08] <Randomskk> like $$WOMBAT,123,12:53:34,51.0234,-0.23143,18450*ABCD
[00:08] <Randomskk> http://spacenear.us/tracker
[00:08] <Randomskk> http://habhub.org/mt
[00:08] <Randomskk> http://ukhas.org.uk has details
[00:08] <Randomskk> we have an entire distributed listener network and telemetry system
[00:08] <Randomskk> http://habitat.habhub.org
[00:09] <fsphil> hmmm... mt still not working for me
[00:09] <Randomskk> fsphil: browser?
[00:09] <fsphil> firefox
[00:09] <Randomskk> try chrome?
[00:09] <lz1dev> latest firefox?
[00:09] <fsphil> latest yep
[00:09] <lz1dev> do you get a black bar under the logo ?
[00:09] <Randomskk> working in latest firefox here
[00:09] <fsphil> it worked before
[00:09] <nigelvh> have we identified that kai__ is from the UK?
[00:09] <fsphil> just the logo lz1dev
[00:09] <Randomskk> though I did have to tell it to allow mt to store local data
[00:10] <lz1dev> fsphil: try to refresh a couple of times
[00:10] <lz1dev> if you still get just the logo
[00:10] <fsphil> already did lz1dev
[00:10] <Randomskk> fsphil: did you let it store local data?
[00:10] <lz1dev> check error log ctrl+shift+j
[00:10] <lz1dev> i believe
[00:10] <kai__> so it's similar to aprs.fi only with another format?
[00:10] <fsphil> it's not asking Randomskk
[00:11] <fsphil> no errors
[00:11] <lz1dev> strange
[00:11] <lz1dev> perhaps the applicationCache api is disabled somehow
[00:11] <fsphil> I'll try clearing the cache
[00:11] <lz1dev> kai__: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2?s[]=rtty
[00:12] <kai__> nigelvh: kai__ is not
[00:12] <nigelvh> kai__ where are you located?
[00:13] <lz1dev> fsphil: can you check about:config
[00:13] <kai__> USA, Arizona
[00:13] <fsphil> lz1dev: there was an option in the cache settings, to allow storage. it was unticked
[00:13] <fsphil> working now
[00:13] <lz1dev> ah
[00:13] <fsphil> no idea how that got changed
[00:13] <lz1dev> not sure if its enabled by default
[00:13] <fsphil> it had worked though
[00:14] <Randomskk> I don't think it needed it before
[00:14] <fsphil> ah right
[00:14] <lz1dev> yeah
[00:14] <nigelvh> kai__, the UK guys have a VERY NICE network of listener stations that we really don't have here in the US. Many US guys are using APRS, however, the RTTY method that the UK guys use is a very good and reliable method.
[00:14] <lz1dev> applicationCache throws events, which load the app
[00:14] <lz1dev> if there are no events, app wont load
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[00:14] <Randomskk> if you are in the US, putting a decently powerful ham radio on and transmitting APRS is pretty good though ;)
[00:14] <Randomskk> we have 10mW to play with so APRS isn't really an option
[00:15] <Randomskk> (and we cannot operate under amateur radio licenses in the air)
[00:15] <nigelvh> kai__ I have done flights using APRS and transmitting with about 300mW and it was worked well for me.
[00:15] <lz1dev> agreed, i think aprs is all around a better choice for the US
[00:16] <kai__> nigelvh: ok, the UK seems to be set up for balloon tracking
[00:17] <nigelvh> kai__, the downside to APRS is that the data rates are much faster, so you need MUCH higher signal margins to get clean data. RTTY is generally used at slower speeds and will provide a more reliable link. However, with that option, you only have yourself as the reciever. Here in the US, APRS gives us a simulated tracking network
[00:18] <kai__> nigelvh: APRS is widely used here too
[00:18] <kai__> nigelvh
[00:19] <nigelvh> (I'm in Washington)
[00:19] <kai__> ok
[00:19] <nigelvh> I'm very jealous of the UK group's number of trackers.
[00:19] <kai__> lol
[00:19] <nigelvh> APRS gets us closer to that ideal
[00:19] <fsphil> it's becoming a european network now
[00:19] <fsphil> there are probably more stations in poland now :)
[00:19] <nigelvh> kai__, are you a HAM?
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[00:20] <lz1dev> yeah, there were quite a few station during the poland flight
[00:20] <lz1dev> stations*
[00:20] <kai__> nigelvh: yes, KI9L formerly KJ6KUV
[00:21] <nigelvh> Ok, then you'll be set in that regard. If you choose to use APRS, please be careful about your path settings. At ABSOLOUTE MAXIMUM use a path of WIDE2-1. Ideally you'd use no path at all.
[00:22] <nigelvh> When the balloon is in the air you'll be able to reach LOTS of stations and if you have a wide path you'll hammer the network.
[00:23] <kai__> nigelvh:that would be bad
[00:24] <nigelvh> Yes.
[00:24] <nigelvh> Where I fly, There's only one or two digipeaters, and rather few igate stations so I tend to use a WIDE2-1 path, but if there were more around, I would use no path.
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[00:27] <kai__> nigelvh:that sounds better than having my packets bouncing from 100 stations all at once
[00:27] <nigelvh> Yes
[00:30] <kai__> nigelvh:are you using a byonics tracker?
[00:31] <nigelvh> No, I've custom built my APRS trackers.
[00:32] <kai__> nigelvh:From PICs or the like?
[00:33] <nigelvh> Yes, I tend to use the ATmega chips, but it's a similar prospect.
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[00:38] <Hix> any ideas as to how to get eagle to not separate groundplane from linking vias?
[00:39] <nigelvh> You need to use the NAME function to name the vias the same as the ground planes
[00:39] <nigelvh> For example I name my ground plands GND so I also name those vias GND
[00:39] <Hix> ahhh yes, nice thx
[00:41] <Hix> BUT no group option for name? not all individually surely?
[00:42] <nigelvh> Generally I name one, then use the copy function to create all the rest of the vias from that one.
[00:42] <Hix> ahhhh too late, start them all again then :/
[00:42] <Hix> god Eagle is pants
[00:42] <Hix> and people pay for it....
[00:42] <nigelvh> Or deal with naming each one.
[00:43] <Hix> quicker to do em again you way
[00:43] <nigelvh> Eagle has limitations yes, but it does work.
[00:43] <Hix> *your
[00:43] <nigelvh> Also cheaper than some other commercial options
[00:43] <Lunar_Lander> but Eagle seems to have more parts ready than KiCAD
[00:43] <Hix> but a license for the comercial version is £££
[00:43] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. the sparkfun librar
[00:43] <Lunar_Lander> +y
[00:44] <Hix> yeah, but I'm guessing that'll change
[00:44] <Hix> hackvana seems to be plugging kicad atm
[00:44] <Hix> starting to see why
[00:44] <nigelvh> The commercial version of eagle is expensive, but it's still a LOT cheaper than some other commercial tools
[00:44] <Hix> whish Catia did PCB
[00:45] <Hix> wish even
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[00:47] <Lunar_Lander> like Altium=
[00:47] <Lunar_Lander> ?
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[00:52] <Lunar_Lander> good night! :)
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[01:13] <Hix> good job I went over the vias, there were orphaned areas of groundplane that weren't linked
[01:13] <Hix> hiding airwires on GND was a bad move, pleasedi unhid em
[01:13] <nigelvh> See, eagle being stupid helped you.
[01:13] <Hix> :D
[01:14] <Hix> yup - stupid ^2
[01:14] <Hix> but now its chinese new year so 2 week delay on boards :(
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[01:15] <nigelvh> Depends on how cheap you want the boards. I use a fab house in california if I care about time.
[01:16] <Hix> I just lost my job so cheap is my friend, plus US always seems to attract duty into UK
[01:16] <nigelvh> Alright, well then cheap is what you've got.
[01:16] <Hix> time off work and no board to build and test, damn you fate
[01:18] <nigelvh> Depends on how long you're off work
[01:20] <Hix> hopefully not long. Pretty much guarantee i'll start on of before they arrive, sods law
[01:20] <Hix> on the plus side - time to learn C
[01:20] <nigelvh> C is good
[01:21] <Hix> unless you are me :)
[01:21] <Hix> in which case, it's a black art.
[01:22] <nigelvh> A black art full of magic
[01:22] <Hix> smoke
[01:23] <Hix> my mantra is "one day it'll just click"
[01:23] <nigelvh> Are you working with arduino at all?
[01:23] <Hix> yes
[01:23] <nigelvh> Arduino makes it really easy.
[01:24] <nigelvh> Arduino is mostly just a big pile of libraries that take the complicated out of digitalWrite(PIN, HIGH);
[01:24] <Hix> my problem is I get very easily bored with the simple bits and want to get deep too soon
[01:25] <nigelvh> That can easily happen
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[02:22] <Hix> time for zzzs bye
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[03:59] <arko> http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/03/university-of-cambridge-chip-moves-data-in-3d/
[03:59] <arko> nice work CU
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[05:03] <kc9doa> ?
[05:03] <kc9doa> quit
[05:03] <nigelvh> You need a / before your command.
[05:03] <kc9doa> thanks
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[08:27] <fsphil> morning alls
[08:28] <arko> MORNING!
[08:28] <arko> www.facebook.com/TimeMachineRestoration
[08:28] <arko> she's DONE!
[08:28] <arko> D
[08:28] <arko> O
[08:28] <arko> N
[08:28] <arko> E
[08:28] <arko> WOOOO!!!
[08:28] <arko> back to drinnking and celebrating
[08:28] <fsphil> heavy!!
[08:28] <arko> :P indeed
[08:30] <fsphil> any pics?
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[08:31] <fsphil> that facebook page doesn't have many
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[08:34] <costyn> howdy
[08:35] <fsphil> g'morn costyn
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[08:43] <arko> fsphil: coming soon :)
[08:43] <arko> waiting for an "offical" photo release
[08:43] <arko> we spent a lot of time perfecting
[08:43] <arko> you wouldn
[08:43] <arko> 't
[08:43] <arko> believe how damn accurate it is
[08:44] <fsphil> looking forward to it!
[08:44] <arko> :)
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[08:44] <fsphil> I know they're suppose to be very unreliable and dangerous cars, but I'd still love one :)
[08:47] <arko> yep!
[08:47] <arko> it's fiberglass with sheetmetal glued on
[08:47] <arko> it's terrifying!
[08:47] <fsphil> eek
[08:47] <fsphil> when your knees are the crumple zone
[08:47] <arko> yep!
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[10:05] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "[UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
[10:05] <fsphil> well that's that settled
[10:07] <lz1dev> conclusion?
[10:07] <mattbrejza> i wonder what the next survey will be
[10:08] <lz1dev> something exciting, i hope
[10:11] <UpuWork> colour of string
[10:12] <Hix> legth of payload train?
[10:12] <fsphil> duct tape width
[10:13] <Hix> optimum launch temp pressure humidity
[10:13] <Darkside> actually that one can be important
[10:13] <Darkside> the payload train..
[10:13] <Darkside> more spacing between payloads anyway, particularly when it comes to multiple radio transmitters
[10:13] <Darkside> s/transmitters/transceivers/
[10:13] <costyn> heh
[10:13] <lz1dev> payload colour that would least upset migrating birds
[10:14] <lz1dev> or plane pilots
[10:14] <costyn> heh
[10:14] <UpuWork> [10:13] <Hix> optimum launch temp pressure humidity
[10:15] <UpuWork> don't be silly Hix thats actually possibly useful scientific information
[10:15] <UpuWork> Does underwear colour affect overall balloon performance
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[10:15] <costyn> it does if the underwear is sitting on the balloon
[10:15] <UpuWork> point taken
[10:16] <lz1dev> so, wear no underware, for optimum performance?
[10:16] <Darkside> yep
[10:17] <Darkside> launch in the nuddy
[10:17] <Darkside> especially when it's snowing
[10:17] <UpuWork> I think neither of us live in countries that have the weather for launching in the buff
[10:17] <costyn> please leave the web tv-streams off if you decide to launch like this
[10:17] <Hix> surely commando is optimum for running in windy launches
[10:18] <Darkside> UpuWork: hmm, we have had launches where it would be possible
[10:18] <Darkside> wouldn't recommend it tho
[10:18] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "[UKHAS] Re: Where to buy"
[10:19] <Darkside> urgh
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[10:25] Nick change: Penfold_ -> Penfold
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[10:34] <costyn> so what do you guys think about these pocket-size digital oscilloscopes?
[10:34] <costyn> (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10244 for example)
[10:35] <Darkside> the DSO nano has limited use for me
[10:35] <Darkside> DSO quad has a better sample rate, so it better for me
[10:35] <mattbrejza> only really suitable for audio stuff really
[10:35] <mattbrejza> would have trouble with digital signals above 100kHz also
[10:36] <Darkside> DSO quad is a lot better
[10:36] <Darkside> 75MHZ sample rate or something
[10:36] <mattbrejza> yea tahts nicer
[10:36] <mattbrejza> i think my 60MHz/500MSPS cost £300 or so
[10:37] <Darkside> rigol do some good cheap DSOs now
[10:37] <fsphil> I love my rigol
[10:37] <fsphil> I don't use half it's features though, or even understand them
[10:37] <fsphil> -'
[10:38] <mattbrejza> all i need now is a VNA :P
[10:38] <Darkside> hehe
[10:38] <fsphil> Vagal nerve activity?
[10:38] <fsphil> oh, Virus Neutralizing antibody
[10:38] <mattbrejza> although theres a lab next room over with those, but i think i need to ask someone very nicely (different research group)
[10:39] Action: Darkside has one in his office
[10:39] <Darkside> a bit out of cal though
[10:39] <Darkside> something like 1.5dB out or so
[10:39] <mattbrejza> well surely relative amplidtude is done with the calkit every use?
[10:39] <fsphil> what do they measure?
[10:39] <mattbrejza> and for absolute power your supposed to cal with a power meter every time too
[10:40] <mattbrejza> the everything fsphil
[10:40] <mattbrejza> (RF related)
[10:40] <Darkside> mattbrejza: yeah you'd think so, right?
[10:40] <Darkside> but i connect a through cable, cal it, and i see 1.5dB *gain* after i cal it
[10:40] <mattbrejza> the one i used talked to a power meter, did a sweep and then cal'ed
[10:40] <Darkside> (transmission measurements this is)
[10:40] <mattbrejza> oh i see
[10:41] <mattbrejza> call with a 1.5dB attenuator :P
[10:41] <Darkside> so something is fucked
[10:41] <mattbrejza> *cal
[10:41] <Darkside> lol
[10:41] Action: Darkside goes back to coding
[10:41] <mattbrejza> ah yes gpib was how you connect stuff togeher
[10:42] <mattbrejza> dinosaur interface
[10:42] <Darkside> aahh yes, GPIB
[10:42] <Darkside> yep
[10:42] <mattbrejza> 60s
[10:42] <Darkside> big centronix connector
[10:43] <mattbrejza> NI charge you a decent amount for a usb->gpib card mind you
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[10:47] <UpuWork> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ICOM-IC-R10-Portable-Wideband-Receivers-/281060423320?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_SpecialistRadioEquipment_SM&hash=item417081b698
[10:47] <Darkside> jez
[10:47] <Darkside> jeez
[10:48] <Darkside> that'll go a lot higher
[10:48] <costyn> thanks for the comments guys
[10:48] <UpuWork> yup
[10:48] <costyn> i was distracted for a bit
[10:48] <Darkside> make sure you watch it UpuWork
[10:48] <Darkside> nab it if you can
[10:48] <UpuWork> I have one already :)
[10:48] <Darkside> get another
[10:48] <UpuWork> I use it all the time
[10:48] <Darkside> a friend of mine has 5
[10:48] <UpuWork> lol
[10:49] <mattbrejza> UpuWork: stop posting radios im going after to a wider audience :P
[10:49] <UpuWork> lol
[10:49] <UpuWork> how much did that one with the dodgy battery clip go for in the end
[10:49] <mattbrejza> 80 i think
[10:49] <mattbrejza> 82
[10:50] <UpuWork> thats a bargin
[10:50] <UpuWork> I paid £100 for mine
[10:50] <mattbrejza> i would have bid a bit more but ebay had signed me out, and this was as i realised there was 1min to go ¬.¬
[10:50] <mattbrejza> not that i was putting much more on
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[11:38] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
[11:38] <costyn> why do linear regs not have an inbuilt cap? or would it make the reg too big?
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[11:39] <mattbrejza> on chip caps are limited to 100s pF to a few nF or so
[11:40] <mattbrejza> so cost really
[11:40] <costyn> ok
[11:40] <mattbrejza> you could embed a cap in the package
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[11:46] <gonzo_> the values depend on the application.
[11:47] <costyn> gonzo_: so thats why you get to choose your own cap?
[11:47] <gonzo_> they could put in the min values to keep the chips from oscillating, but I suspect that would lead to people just never adding any extra caps when req
[11:47] <mattbrejza> that was a out of thin air figure, but silicon isnt known of its high capacitance properties
[11:48] <gonzo_> also for most applications I expect you need more than the basic min cap values. So that would mean paying extra for the in chip caps then having to still put your own onboard
[11:48] <costyn> makes sense now :)
[11:48] <gonzo_> costyn, quite probably
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[11:49] <fsphil> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/04/hello_kitty_flight/
[11:50] <fsphil> gopro horizon, but still very impressive pics
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[11:52] <daveake> "We could be wrong, but we reckon we caught a quick glimpse of a hydrogen cylinder at the start of the vid. HAB high-flier and LOHAN team member Dave Akerman would certainly approve" LOL
[11:53] <costyn> wow... that burst pic :)
[11:53] <fsphil> in an exclusive interview, fsphil asks daveake if he does infact approve
[11:53] <costyn> daveake: :D
[11:53] <UpuWork> haha
[11:53] <UpuWork> name check you to get it higher on Google :)
[11:53] <daveake> lol
[11:53] <fsphil> they just missed a lake!
[11:55] <UpuWork> interesting no insulatino
[11:55] <Maxell> Really cute
[11:56] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
[11:56] <mattbrejza> anyone done one of those risk accessment 'Risk - likelihood - severity' forms for H2 launches?
[11:57] <Darkside> haha
[11:57] <Darkside> risk: lowish
[11:57] <Darkside> severity: high
[11:57] <jonsowman> 3*1=3 => OK!
[11:57] <jonsowman> wonderful
[11:58] <Darkside> statistically, someone is going to screw up
[11:58] <Darkside> what happens after that, i don't know
[11:58] <daveake> whoomph
[11:58] <gonzo_> a balloon of justb h2 is not that dangerous
[11:58] <mattbrejza> i mean its no more dangerous then natural gas...?
[11:58] <daveake> It's the molten latex you'd want to stay clear of
[11:58] <mattbrejza> and its outside...
[11:58] <gonzo_> more floof than womph
[11:58] <jonsowman> quote that in the RA
[11:59] <fsphil> the H2 in the balloon isn't that bad, it's if you have a leak
[11:59] <gonzo_> there are some corking h2-O2 balloon explosions on youtube
[11:59] <mattbrejza> just have no exposed skin..? that might be the only way to keep the H&S people happy?
[11:59] <gonzo_> one massive foil balloon full of mix, not far from people. just to show that there is no limit to human stupidity
[12:00] <gonzo_> the met boys have a flame hood, and that's about it
[12:00] <mfa298> for a H2/O2 explosion I wonder if the primary risk would be more from the shockwave then the fire.
[12:01] <mattbrejza> you wouldnt get an explosion anyway
[12:01] <mattbrejza> but a fireball isnt seen as a safe thing, even if its not too bad
[12:01] <gonzo_> H&S prople can be kkept at bay. The risk assessment of getting tthumped will keep them busy
[12:03] <daveake> I've not done any H2 launches where a RA was needed. In both cases where an RA was done, they just opted for He
[12:04] <mattbrejza> hmm
[12:04] <mattbrejza> we're fine for He. but im just thinking ahead
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[12:21] <daveake> The way He is going, that's wise
[12:24] <mattbrejza> tbh a very unlikely, high severity is still in the green zone :P
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[12:25] <gonzo_> glad I've never had to waste life doing RA's
[12:26] <mattbrejza> tbh once youve done it once its done
[12:26] <gonzo_> "yeh, it'll be fine. We;ve never killanyone yet. Light the fuse..."
[12:26] <gonzo_> usually followed bu "ah.... RUN.... That was close..."
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[12:27] <mattbrejza> anyone want to try to light a filled H2 balloon to see what will happen?
[12:27] <daveake> It's on YT :)
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[12:27] <mattbrejza> a little one?
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[12:27] <mattbrejza> or a 1600g one?
[12:28] <gonzo_> seen YT of pure H2, quite unimpressive
[12:28] Nick change: DrLuke__ -> DrLuke
[12:28] <daveake> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQvpK9cl0No
[12:28] <Maxell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pliwui7cUuQ
[12:29] <gonzo_> there's a series of them at some US uni, where they have a fuse and let them float off. Which is asking for trouble
[12:29] <gonzo_> those floaty ones were H2 O2 mix
[12:31] <mattbrejza> hmm so a few buring bits of latex
[12:32] <mattbrejza> probably best not to fill with lots of people hands out
[12:32] <fsphil> now there's a demo we could do for the conf
[12:33] <mattbrejza> how not to fill a H2 balloon and what can go wrong?
[12:34] <fsphil> what happens when it does go wrong
[12:34] <mattbrejza> with people holding it at the time?
[12:34] <gonzo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMB2VR0087w
[12:34] <fsphil> well i imagined it behind a wall and a remote trigger
[12:34] <fsphil> but if you insist :)
[12:34] <gonzo_> think that was the stupid big foil balloon one
[12:35] <mattbrejza> when you do these RA risk-mitigation things, is the severity of the risk before or after the mitigation?
[12:36] <fsphil> america!
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[12:39] <mfa298> i think before mitigation but probably depends on the RA, I don't think there's any official standard for RAs
[12:42] <mattbrejza> tbh all you need to say is one person near the balloon, wear a full face mask (perhaps ott but itll keep them happy)
[12:42] <daveake> Others upwind
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[12:42] <fsphil> no lighters
[12:43] <fsphil> there's always one idiot
[12:43] <mfa298> if there's likely to be some air/o2 in the mix I'd add ear protection.
[12:43] <mattbrejza> well make sure there isnt
[12:43] <mattbrejza> does H2/O2 in the right mix go up without any ignition source?
[12:43] <mattbrejza> or can do anyway
[12:44] <fsphil> it doesn't need much
[12:45] <mfa298> I think you need a spark (or similar) but it burns very quickly but has a loud bang (see the link gonzo_ provided)
[12:45] <mattbrejza> yea certianlly dont intend to do that
[12:46] <gonzo_> there are warnings that the energy to ignite H2 is low. So the friction in opening the gas rishing out of the valve can be enough to ignite it
[12:46] <fsphil> yea that was probably the ideal mixture of oxygen and hydrogen
[12:46] <gonzo_> so no snifting of the bottle (cracking the valve to clear the coupling before putting the regulator on)
[12:47] <mattbrejza> so you could open the valve and be greeted by a jet of flame?
[12:48] <costyn> mattbrejza: invisible jet of flame
[12:48] <gonzo_> I had the regulator pressure relief valve blow on my H2 bottle a while ago. No problems. Though I did have the bottle valve only a little opekn and some string on it so that a tug would shut it from a safe distance
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[12:48] <gonzo_> mattbrejza, I believe that is a poss
[12:49] <mattbrejza> pressure relief valve ? that on the regulator?
[12:49] <gonzo_> but not sure if the pnormal ressure/friction of h2 from a regulator would be enoyugh to ignite
[12:50] <gonzo_> mattbrejza, yep, on the regulator. I had it up to 7bar output when it went.
[12:50] <gonzo_> (replaced with a higher pressure reg now)
[12:50] <mattbrejza> so that opens continously and you have to rush to close hte bottle?
[12:51] <mattbrejza> whilst avoiding any potential fireball?
[12:52] <gonzo_> had a string on the bottle valve key going down ariound the table leg so that a tug on the string in any direction would close the bottle. Sort of dead mans handle
[12:52] <gonzo_> when it went I had one hand of the valve anyway so snapped shut
[12:52] <mattbrejza> this isnt gonna look good on a RA form
[12:53] <gonzo_> thiswas not a usual situation. Itr was a gonzo-buggering-aboput situation
[12:53] <mattbrejza> i suppose if your in the middle of a field you can just not be near it until that valve shuts off
[12:54] <gonzo_> follow the instructions for the bottle and reg at notmal hab pressures and all should be fine
[12:54] <mattbrejza> lol we'll just use He while we can
[12:55] <mattbrejza> but it doesnt seem to bad, whether H&S will agree...
[12:56] <gonzo_> justcrip some std H2 bottle handling scripts from somewhere
[12:56] <mattbrejza> and then add face protection for the person near the balloon
[12:56] <mattbrejza> sorte
[12:56] <mattbrejza> d
[12:57] <gonzo_> sounds sensible
[12:57] <gonzo_> poss a longer hose between hab and bottle if you want to be extra safe. So man on bottle can manage that side of things from a safer distance
[13:00] <mattbrejza> yea
[13:00] <mattbrejza> other thing is cylinder transport/storage
[13:00] <mattbrejza> but then we cant transport H2 in the same compartment as a passenger anyway
[13:00] <mattbrejza> *He
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[13:02] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "Re: [UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
[13:07] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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[14:24] <Rob9877> Hello - anyone on here?
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[14:25] <mfa298> well there probably were if he'd waited more than a minute
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[14:26] <Rov9877> Looking to get some info for use of APRS for HAB tracking. Anyone used these with any success?
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[14:26] <mfa298> Rov9877: where are you located ?
[14:26] <Rov9877> UK
[14:27] <mfa298> APRS isn't the best in the UK for HAB.
[14:27] <Rov9877> Ok- any reason?
[14:27] <mfa298> very limited power and frequencies
[14:28] <Rov9877> ok - understand - having a look about it's suggested that 10mW is good if LOS is good - we're looking to launch our 1st HAB
[14:28] <mfa298> the main thing that's used is 10mW on 434Mhz
[14:28] <Rov9877> but really want to get it back
[14:28] <Rov9877> yeah - that's what I've read on UKHAS
[14:29] <mfa298> most people use rtty instead in the UK
[14:29] <Rov9877> I've seen this: Micro-Trak RTG FA High Altitude Combo that's available - but from the states
[14:30] <mfa298> what's legal in the states isn't necessarily legal in the UK
[14:30] <fsphil> you can't use amateur radio frequencies in the UK, so the main advantage (lots of stations receiving on 144.800) is gone
[14:30] <jonsowman> I wouldn't say no if you wanted to wire the house with ethernet cabling but I appreciate that's a lot of work!
[14:30] <Rov9877> I've seen possible use of SSB for tracking - and using a yagi to find it
[14:30] <Rov9877> yeah - I get you
[14:30] <fsphil> you could do aprs on 434mhz ISM, but the low power make it basically useless
[14:30] <jonsowman> wrong window.
[14:31] <Rov9877> but we're looking to get a HD camera in the payload and wanted to make sure we get the footage back
[14:31] <Rov9877> ok
[14:31] <fsphil> rtty FSK on 70cm is your best bet
[14:31] <fsphil> that and some kind of backup
[14:31] <fsphil> either a GSM tracker or satellite beacon thingy
[14:31] <Rov9877> Ok - thanks - lastly what's the rules on having a radar reflactor?
[14:31] <Rov9877> reflector even
[14:31] <fsphil> you don't need one
[14:31] <daveake> don't need one
[14:32] <Rov9877> ok - thx
[14:32] <Rov9877> Seen it in some UK notes but not seen if it was mandatory
[14:32] <daveake> Not even useful unless it's huge
[14:32] <fsphil> if you launch with the rtty radio tracker, you can be sure we'll help track it
[14:32] <daveake> whereabouts in the UK Rov9877?
[14:32] <Rov9877> Good to know there's a decent community out there to help the new comers
[14:33] <daveake> dunno about decent :p
[14:33] <Rov9877> North west - near Chester
[14:33] <Rov9877> so far so good tho Daveaka
[14:33] <Rov9877> Thanks for the help so far
[14:33] <Maxell> fsphil: RTTY is very robust
[14:34] <Rov9877> really appreciate it
[14:34] <fsphil> indeed Maxell
[14:34] <fsphil> I'm always amazed at the range 10mw can get
[14:34] <Maxell> Why are there no Hams at 60 cmband?
[14:34] <griffonbot> @adamcudworth: about ready to submit the iPhone version of HABHUB app to the App Store - last testing phases #ukhas [http://twitter.com/adamcudworth/status/298439501607469057]
[14:34] <fsphil> there is no 60cm band in the uk?
[14:35] <gonzo_> 60cm? what frequecny?
[14:35] <Rov9877> @Griffonbot - any Android version available at all?
[14:36] <mfa298> 60cms is around 500Mhz does anyone have an amateur band there ?
[14:36] <UpuWork> [14:27] <mfa298> APRS isn't the best in the UK for HAB.
[14:36] <UpuWork> [14:27] <Rov9877> Ok- any reason?
[14:36] <UpuWork> [14:27] <mfa298> very limited power and frequencies
[14:36] <UpuWork> its illegal :)
[14:36] <Randomskk> technically you could use the aprs protocol
[14:36] <fsphil> APRS itself isn't
[14:36] <UpuWork> true
[14:36] <mfa298> If you ran APRS at 10mW on 434 it's probably legal, but zero benefit
[14:36] <Randomskk> aprs itself isn't illegal, but transmitting at a useful power and on the commonly used frequency is
[14:36] <gonzo_> I assumed 60cm was a typo
[14:36] <fsphil> I guess so
[14:36] <mattbrejza> you could transmit aprs as FSK rather than AFSK also
[14:37] <fsphil> and there are plenty of hams on the 70cm band
[14:37] <UpuWork> sorry clarification as fsphil said
[14:37] <fsphil> enough that someone complained about me using 434.650 :)
[14:37] <mfa298> and I've come accross one balloon in the UK that ran APRS on 70cms (The Mass Effect 3 Lanuch last year)
[14:37] <UpuWork> uff "MicroTrak"
[14:38] <gonzo_> and your reply way??
[14:38] <mattbrejza> fsphil: a ham?
[14:38] <Randomskk> mfa298: and they had a handful of SPOTs to help anyway :P
[14:38] <fsphil> mattbrejza: yea, repeater operator
[14:38] <UpuWork> Rob and I once got told off for doing SSTV on the err band allocated for SSTV
[14:38] <fsphil> afaik nothing actually happened
[14:38] <mattbrejza> did you trigger the repeater?
[14:38] <fsphil> nope
[14:38] <Randomskk> well yes but hams
[14:38] <gonzo_> may still be possible to get an experimental permit to fly an APRS TX. But would tend to be a one off permissuion
[14:38] <mattbrejza> shame
[14:38] <jonsowman> fsphil: what were they even complaining about?!
[14:39] <mfa298> Randomskk: true, and very few people tracking it because it was APRS
[14:39] <fsphil> the potential that I might have jonsowman
[14:39] <fsphil> I replied about the low power, lack of ctcss tone, etc.
[14:39] <Randomskk> hams complain about everything
[14:39] <UpuWork> lol
[14:39] <Randomskk> I might make a payload that keys up as many transmitters as possible
[14:39] <UpuWork> haha
[14:39] <mattbrejza> i wasnt aware watching out for repeaters was a requirement of ir2030... :P
[14:39] <Randomskk> play all the CTCSS tones in rapid sequence at 10mW
[14:39] <jonsowman> ridiculous
[14:39] <jonsowman> Randomskk: let's do it
[14:39] <fsphil> it did raise an interesting question
[14:39] <jonsowman> that'll shut them up
[14:39] <Randomskk> channel hopping over all of 434's license exempt band
[14:39] <Randomskk> in fact wombat has the hardware to do that
[14:39] <Randomskk> lol
[14:39] <Maxell> gonzo_: yeah, it was. 70cm ;)
[14:39] <UpuWork> secondary users
[14:39] <fsphil> it wouldn't be illegal for me to transmit on 434.650 with the CTCSS tone to open a repeater
[14:40] <fsphil> but it would be illeagal for the repeater operator to relay my signal
[14:40] <mfa298> pretty sure the amateur allocation on 70cms is secondary anyway
[14:40] <UpuWork> it is
[14:40] <Maxell> lol fsphil that mad
[14:40] <UpuWork> but
[14:40] <jonsowman> yes but not to repeater operators
[14:40] <Randomskk> it's not like I'd transmit anything anyway
[14:40] <Randomskk> just key them up
[14:40] <jonsowman> haha
[14:40] <UpuWork> so is the license exempt
[14:40] <gonzo_> just had a similar chat in another chan.... About hams moaning about the 446meg handheld radios that also did the LPD frequencies
[14:40] <fsphil> so having a repeater input on an ISM frequency is a bit silly really
[14:40] <Randomskk> very silly
[14:40] <Randomskk> some repeaters don't even have ctss!
[14:40] <Randomskk> ctcss
[14:41] <Randomskk> those tend to be the ones whining about habs
[14:41] <jonsowman> wonder why
[14:41] <jonsowman> maybe we could make use of them
[14:41] <mfa298> I think the newer repeaters have their inputs higher up now so outside the ISM band
[14:41] <fsphil> I was doing 300 baud too -- that makes my signal even less likely to open anything
[14:41] <UpuWork> anyway so yes Rov9877 use license exempt 434Mhz and you'll get an instant network of recievers which is probably better than the passive APRS network
[14:41] <jonsowman> get wombat to transmit on that frequency and then it'll be easy to pick up via the repeater
[14:41] <gonzo_> Maxell, there is a 70cm allocation in the UK. 432-440MHz. it is used but not much
[14:42] <Maxell> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/70-Zentimeter-Band#Bandplan
[14:42] <Randomskk> jonsowman: perfect, give them something to actually complain about :P
[14:42] <fsphil> I do hear some activity on 70cm
[14:42] <fsphil> during contests and the like
[14:43] <jonsowman> Randomskk: yep
[14:43] <jonsowman> GB3PY is fairly active in cam
[14:43] <jonsowman> hams talking about the traffic and sandwiches and things
[14:43] <gonzo_> I'm not on a hill, so I hear very little on 2mtrs or 70cm, that is not air/space borne
[14:43] <UpuWork> GB3YW is just a load of moaning truckers on the M62
[14:44] <gonzo_> 4mtrs is more active than any other VHF bands near me
[14:45] <fsphil> I've nothing for 4m
[14:45] <fsphil> unless the 817 can be modified for it
[14:46] <mfa298> I think 70cms might be a bit more active here at the moment but that's because the local 2m and 70cms repeaters are off but there's another fairly local 70cs repeater still on.
[14:46] <mfa298> fsphil: I dont think there's any easy 817 mod for 4m. Id looked into it a while back.
[14:47] <fsphil> there probably isn't much local activity anyway
[14:48] <mfa298> I keep meaning to play with 4m - although I need to find a mic that works with the 4m radio I've got (ex PMR but no mic came with it)
[14:48] <mfa298> I'd looked at transverters as well but they get quite costly (and very few on ebay)
[14:51] <fsphil> transverters seem complicated
[14:51] <Randomskk> especially at any useful power
[14:51] <fsphil> I'm not sure why people would prefer 4m over 6m
[14:52] <mfa298> agreed, the only real advantage of them is they can be multimode.
[14:52] <fsphil> 6m is a large band, and it's bascially empty
[14:52] <gonzo_> 4mtrs was historically just uk. So you had to build/convert radio to be on there. Tended to get a better class fo person
[14:53] <fsphil> I've heard some scandanavian stations on 6m once, but that's about it
[14:53] <gonzo_> mfa298, what's the radio you have?
[14:53] <mfa298> I think 4m has been more popular with some as it was very much an experimenters band as there was no comercial kit available.
[14:53] <fsphil> scandinavian*
[14:53] <mfa298> gonzo_: a zycomm
[14:54] <mfa298> it's a fairly standard din connector but i think the pins are different to a couple of mics I had with the same connector.
[14:56] <mfa298> I probably need to spend some time with a screwdriver, good light and lots of paper to trace out the connections
[14:56] <gonzo_> google is your friend there
[14:57] <gonzo_> don't know the set. I have philips fm1200's And that have a reall odd mic connector. Wondered if that was your prob
[14:58] <gonzo_> there are more eu countries getting 4mtrs now as the band one TV is being closed down
[14:58] <mfa298> I couldn't find out much about it when I've tried before. I tried contacting the company as well but never heard back, might try calling them sometime.
[14:58] <gonzo_> making it a more interesting band.
[14:59] <Maxell> 4 meters in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k_7TpscVh8
[14:59] <Maxell> It's jarod's setup.
[15:00] <mfa298> just grabbed it out the box, Zycomm FM5016, I think it's a less common conversion. Now it's out the box I might have to have more of a play with it
[15:00] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
[15:01] <jonsowman> it was only a matter of time before "chuck it down the stairs"
[15:01] <daveake> :)
[15:01] <fsphil> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/audio/terriblesecret
[15:02] <daveake> "this may be a destructive test"
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[15:04] <gonzo_> hmmm, yep, never heard iof that radio
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[15:08] <Laurenceb> http://regmedia.co.uk/2013/02/04/hello_kitty_3.jpg
[15:08] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:08] <Randomskk> to be fair
[15:08] <Randomskk> that's a great photo
[15:10] <x-f> whoa
[15:10] <x-f> appears to be legitimate
[15:11] <Cadair> Hi, Have any of you got a recommendation for (analogue) temperature and pressure sensors?
[15:11] <Cadair> Laurenceb, :O
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[15:20] <gonzo_> microchip do some nice temp sensors. 3/5v supply and give a linearised analogue voltage out
[15:20] <gonzo_> don't have the part no's to hand
[15:20] <Cadair> hey gonzo_ The problem I have had so far is minimum temperature.
[15:27] <gonzo_> thine the ones I had are good to -40
[15:27] <gonzo_> catch me later this eve and I'll have a look what I used
[15:28] <Cadair> Is it practical to measure external temperature?
[15:28] <Cadair> thanks :)
[15:30] <eroomde> TMP36 is simple and reasonably accurate for that class of easy to use temp sensor
[15:31] <eroomde> pressure is trickier
[15:31] <Cadair> cool thanks, what kind of range is the temp (external and internal) likely to get down to?
[15:37] <eroomde> outside can get down to -55 to -60
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> interesting fact
[15:38] <eroomde> beyond semiconductor operating temperatures, so you have to do something else if you want to measure that cold
[15:38] <eroomde> internal, depends
[15:38] <eroomde> but usually significantly warmer
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> pull the USB/Ethernet chip off a pi, and it goes from 350 to 100ma
[15:38] <eroomde> some well insulated payloads stay at 20C the entire flight
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> there are a couple of zero ohm jumpers to feed through USB
[15:44] <Cadair> SpeedEvil, Interesting, also you get a 350ma draw off the pi? We haven't tested ours yet but your wiki says 500ma?
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> it's about 350 idle
[15:45] <Cadair> eroomde, I have found a couple of -55 rated temp sensors. Perhaps I will get one of those and just accept the fact that it will cap at the top.
[15:45] <Cadair> SpeedEvil, Interesting.
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[15:49] <Laurenceb> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1085541682/bladerf-usb-30-software-defined-radio
[15:49] <Laurenceb> doing nicely
[15:49] <Laurenceb> ill take 3 :P
[15:49] <Randomskk> hehe
[15:50] <Cadair> that looks awesome
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[15:55] <gonzo_> MCP9701
[15:55] <gonzo_> only good down to -40 though
[15:56] <gonzo_> really intended for temp monitoring inside equipment, but cheap and easy to interfacwe to
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[16:00] <dharnke> i wanted to ask what impedance should a transmitting antenna be in the application of high altitude balloons
[16:00] <UpuWork> 50 ohms
[16:00] <UpuWork> should match your transmitter
[16:00] <UpuWork> but thats usually 50
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[16:04] <dharnke> also wanted to know, when connecting sma to ntx2, how should i connect it
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[16:04] <UpuWork> teh RF GND can be connected to the GND of the circuit if thats what you're asking
[16:04] <UpuWork> teh=the
[16:05] <UpuWork> but center pin to RFOUT on the NTX2, RFGND to GND
[16:05] <dharnke> centre pin of sma
[16:06] <UpuWork> yes
[16:06] <UpuWork> = RF OUT
[16:06] <dharnke> RFGND to which GND in what circuit
[16:06] <eroomde> Randomskk: do you have your precision drawn diagram to hand?
[16:06] <eroomde> explaining ntx2 - sma layout?
[16:06] <Randomskk> ah yes
[16:07] <eroomde> i probably wouldn't connect rfgnd to circuit gnd personally
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[16:07] <Randomskk> http://randomskk.net/u/rfout.png
[16:07] <eroomde> the ntx2 does that internally
[16:07] <UpuWork> lol
[16:07] <UpuWork> thats awesome
[16:07] <Randomskk> should have labelled it really
[16:07] <Randomskk> anyway the ntx2 is at the top and the SMA connector at the bottom
[16:07] <dharnke> oh brilliant, thanks for that
[16:08] <Randomskk> some SMA connectors are edge mount so only have two shield pins per layer, but do the same thing
[16:08] <UpuWork> I figured as it did it internally it wouldn't make any difference if I did it externally too
[16:08] <Randomskk> UpuWork: that's not quite how radio works though :P
[16:08] <eroomde> depends on what else is near it on the circuit
[16:08] <UpuWork> guess so
[16:08] <Randomskk> and the method of connection might be coupled
[16:08] <UpuWork> I've never had an issue
[16:08] <Randomskk> like through an inductor or capacitor
[16:08] <Randomskk> how would you know? :P
[16:08] <UpuWork> maybe I got lucky
[16:08] <UpuWork> well they have worked
[16:08] <Randomskk> dharnke: specifically note how the actual trace is "protected" by the ground trace all around
[16:08] <eroomde> good enough = good enough
[16:08] <Randomskk> well indeed
[16:09] <Randomskk> ferret 1 had RFOUT shorted to RFGND
[16:09] <Randomskk> actually shorted
[16:09] <Randomskk> it still worked
[16:09] <Randomskk> "good enough"
[16:09] <UpuWork> I shall review my designs forthwidth
[16:09] <UpuWork> Ignore my advice dharnke
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[16:10] <gonzo_> you could couple via a cap no probs. Aboev a few 10's of pF the cap will look like an RF short cct anyway
[16:10] <Randomskk> sorry running between oven and room a bit
[16:10] <gonzo_> at 434mhz anyway
[16:11] <UpuWork> RF22B wouldn't make any difference I think
[16:11] <UpuWork> NTX2 may
[16:12] <Randomskk> I doubt it'd make a serious difference. but it's unlikely to make anything better so probably not worth doing
[16:12] <Randomskk> I've done it before
[16:12] <Randomskk> here is the damming ferret photo
[16:12] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/4414038838/
[16:12] <Randomskk> that braid was all over the place
[16:12] <Randomskk> actual shorts
[16:12] <UpuWork> did it work ?
[16:12] <Randomskk> fantastic
[16:12] <Randomskk> yes perfectly
[16:12] <Randomskk> picked up all over the country
[16:12] <UpuWork> RF is woo woo anyway
[16:12] <Randomskk> yes it is
[16:12] <Randomskk> indeed
[16:14] <dharnke> upuWork for a 1/4 wave antenna, how would you calculate the impedance
[16:15] <jonsowman> there's a question
[16:19] <mattbrejza> starting with maxwells equations?
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[16:22] <Randomskk> dharnke: you put the radials at 135 degrees from the driven element and the result is approximately 50 ohms
[16:22] <Randomskk> then you get a strong drink and forget all about wanting to know how to calculate the impedance
[16:23] <jonsowman> worked for me in 3B12
[16:23] <jonsowman> *3B1
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[16:23] <Randomskk> I recall strong drinks and wanting to forget all about impedances
[16:23] <jonsowman> definitely
[16:24] <Randomskk> jonsowman: someone hung the oven gloves on the tea towel hooks. it took me literally more than an hour to find them :|
[16:24] <jonsowman> ahah who did that
[16:24] <jonsowman> :\
[16:24] <Randomskk> on the hook closest to the garden door, too
[16:24] <Randomskk> why would you do that
[16:24] <gonzo_> or the simple answer, though not fun enough to require an anathetic......
[16:24] <Randomskk> D:
[16:24] <Randomskk> plural you, that is
[16:24] <Randomskk> gonzo_: simulate it?
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[16:24] <jonsowman> /t Randomskk's baking party
[16:24] <Randomskk> the answer is always simulate it
[16:24] <mattbrejza> and thats why you should never tidy away...
[16:24] <gonzo_> wavelength = 300/freq in mhz
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[16:25] <Randomskk> that won't tell you the impedance at a given frequency of a general antenna design
[16:25] <Randomskk> or even a general 1/4 wave
[16:26] <gonzo_> for a 1/4wavelength antenna, just take a quarter iof the wavelength, and shorted it by 5%
[16:27] <Randomskk> impedance still depends on the angle the radials form with the driven element
[16:27] <gonzo_> nope, but if the Z is within 50% eather way yiou are near enough
[16:27] <Randomskk> and the surrounding environment, feed cable, connector, payload material, the rest of the universe, etc
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[16:27] <Randomskk> yes but if you want near enough you go for 16cm and bend them a bit and call it a day :P
[16:28] <dharnke> ok, what if i have a different type of antenna with a higher impedance (140ohm)
[16:28] <jonsowman> put it on a shelf and make a 50 ohm one
[16:28] <gonzo_> bending the ground plane radials will lower the impeadence towards 50R, but it also tilts the angle of radiation. I think up ?? (or down for an upside down HAB ant)
[16:29] <mattbrejza> jonsowman: remember us deciding to tune all ours once upon a time?
[16:29] <jonsowman> mattbrejza: :|
[16:29] <gonzo_> yep the complication and extra weight of trying to match 140R into 50R will not be worth the hassle
[16:29] <jonsowman> at least we just used an ATU and a pair of wire clippers
[16:29] <dharnke> i see
[16:30] <gonzo_> what were youb thinking of with 140R?? An axial mode helix?
[16:32] <SAIDias> Howdy
[16:32] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[16:32] <W0OTM> oops
[16:36] <dharnke> gonzo_ exactly
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[16:37] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[16:40] Nick change: UpuWork_ -> UpuWork
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[16:42] <Laurenceb> http://a3.img.mobypicture.com/97474f25c80adad525b4bc0aaf48f294_view.jpg
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[16:46] <gonzo_> you can make an impeadenct transformer for a helux by making a stripline on the first quater turn of the helix section. But really not worth the hastle and weight for a hab
[16:47] <gonzo_> and the radiation patern would not be much use unless you can get directly under the hab woth the RX
[16:48] <gonzo_> the upside down quater wave is about optimal for pattern and simplicity
[16:48] <eroomde> theoretically possible if the chase vehicle is a tank or a helicopter
[16:49] <gonzo_> and ATC/rivers woudl thwart those
[16:49] <W0OTM> Would a small 4" nub antenna on an HT (maybe even mounted sideways) inside a foam box be good enough for UHF/VHF telemetry?
[16:49] <fsphil> with enough power it should be fine
[16:49] <W0OTM> How important is the orientation of the antenna for UHV/VHF?
[16:50] <gonzo_> they are in effect just a loaded 1/4 wage groundplane
[16:50] <gonzo_> and would be heavier than a bit of wire
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[16:51] <W0OTM> I want to fly 2 Beufang HTs as a cross band repeater. Both HTs are laying on their side in the box. I don't really want to install external antennas for them
[16:52] <dharnke> sorry what do you mean by making a stripline on the first 1/4 turn,
[16:52] <gonzo_> that's a different requirement. TYou also have to consider the crosstalk of the antennas
[16:52] <W0OTM> Also, I have APRS 144.39Mhz transmitter, and I want to have the cross band repeater XMT on 147.600Mhz (UHF uplink)
[16:53] <gonzo_> dharnke, yep. Have a look at some of the MASAT pages for designs of S band helicals
[16:53] <gonzo_> but at 70cm, the whole helix idea starts to geta b bit big
[16:54] <gonzo_> you start getting problems of desense of the uhf rx from the 3rd harmonic of the 2mtr tx
[16:55] <gonzo_> it may be possible to get some isolation of the two antennas by putting a gp for one band on the bottom of the HAB and another on the top, pointing up and down
[16:55] <W0OTM> hmm
[16:57] <dharnke> ok thanks, might just go with 1/4 wave, but if helix is possible then i would prefer it
[16:57] <gonzo_> or with your first idea, with the ants pointing out eithe side, adding some GP wires or tape to turn the existing ants into GP, while still on the radios
[16:57] <dharnke> how about receiving data with a helix
[16:58] <gonzo_> helix would be fine for rx. Though not the most compact antenna for the gain
[16:59] <gonzo_> also if you have a helix on tx, remember that the first side lobe will have a polarisation of the oposite sense to the main lobe. Very bad if you are rxing with a helix also
[17:00] <gonzo_> W0OTM, having the antennas pointing sideways out of the payload will also have the effect of the polarisation changing as the payload rotates. Pointing up and down at least has the balloon/gravity as a datum
[17:00] <gonzo_> to keep the antennas stable
[17:01] <gonzo_> (satelites have this prob, so you get deep fading as they tumble)
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[17:06] <W0OTM> I figured the tumbling fade was worsened by the higher alt of satellites
[17:07] <W0OTM> I figured HABs wouldn't have that same problem since we are so much closer
[17:11] <W0OTM> gonzo_: like this? pic.twitter.com/mOOvSDHG
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[17:15] <mfa298> having different polarisation on the tx and rx (for a given frequency) can be around a 20dB loss. It might be worth considering what polarisation the ground stations will be using.
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[17:19] <arko> good morning
[17:23] <W0OTM> mfa298: so you would much rather have the HTs installed vertically in the box
[17:25] <mfa298> might work better if the ground stations are likely to be vertically polarised. It would also help with the fading issues as you'd have a more omni coverage.
[17:26] <mfa298> was there a particular reason for not wanting external antennas. I'm just wondering if making some short sma patchleads so you can mount the antennas on the box would be a better design
[17:27] <W0OTM> I already have an external VHF antenna for APRS. Just don't want the added weight
[17:28] <W0OTM> if using the duckie will have enough gain, then I don't want the extra complexity of external antennas
[17:29] <mfa298> you could probably use the antennas from the HTs just have then on a short piece of coax so you can have them external.
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[17:29] <W0OTM> since the box is foam, whats the difference inside or outside? what am I gaining?
[17:30] <mfa298> probably only some flexibiltiy in how to mount the radios (and possibly allow you to have a smaller box)
[17:31] <W0OTM> I think I will look into mounting the HTs vertically in the box. Im not even convinced the separation "inside" the box is that crucial, the box aint that big anyways :)
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[17:33] <W0OTM> pic.twitter.com/2VOYDXAM
[17:33] <mfa298> the comment from gonzo about the tx desensing the rx still holds true so you might want one upside down
[17:35] <W0OTM> pic.twitter.com/82MpOr0Y
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[17:38] <mfa298> hopefully that might be slighlty better.
[17:39] <mfa298> probably worth some tests to see how well the rx works with the tx going next to it.
[17:44] <W0OTM> will do
[17:44] <gonzo_> that was what I meant
[17:45] <gonzo_> with some wires as gp elements to try and add some isolation
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[17:55] <mfa298> looking again, ideally you probably want the 70cm radio higher (if possible) so the antennas mostly have free air around them rather tham radiating into the other chassis.
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[18:00] <peterbjornx> hello
[18:01] <jonsowman> hi
[18:01] <peterbjornx> anyone here know how to build a 400-410mhz receiving preamp for receiving weather probes?
[18:07] <Upu> I think Darkside's HABAmp may cover that
[18:07] <craag> If you take the SAW filter out.
[18:08] <mfa298> I looked up the SAW filter and it looks like 400-410 is out of the range
[18:08] <mfa298> but if you could put a different SAW filter on it could work
[18:08] <Upu> http://rfhead.net/?p=484
[18:08] <Upu> yes would need another saw filter
[18:08] <Upu> if EPCOS do one that would be a straight swap
[18:09] <peterbjornx> is there any easy way to do it with recycled parts?
[18:09] <craag> Something like G4DDK's PGA preamp would be a good wideband preamp if you don't find a replacement SAW filter for the habamp.
[18:09] <Upu> http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/B39401B3742H110/495-3923-2-ND/1858962
[18:09] <peterbjornx> i have tons of radio parts lying arouin
[18:09] <peterbjornx> *around
[18:09] <Upu> maybe a little too tight
[18:10] <Upu> anyway bbl dog needs a walk
[18:12] <craag> peterbjornx: You can try googling around and see if there are standard preamp designs for any of your parts.
[18:12] <craag> But it is a lot less effort to purchase a unit or kit with PCB, that someone has already done testing on and determined optimum values and layout.
[18:15] <peterbjornx> ok, i hope i can rig something together cause i'd really like to catch tonights probe flight
[18:16] <peterbjornx> my scanner has trouble receiving the one i have lying around from 20m, no way im going to get km's of range
[18:20] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
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[18:36] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
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[18:45] <fsphil> aaah nice to get home after a long monday
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> can I ask you on a popular topic?
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. you = everyone in here
[18:48] <fsphil> don't ask to ask :p
[18:48] <Lunar_Lander> well
[18:48] <Lunar_Lander> what do you think about big bang theory?
[18:48] <Lunar_Lander> does the show insult scientists?
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> the cosmic microwave background is a fairly conclusive proof.
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> no, the CBS show
[18:49] <fsphil> sheldon doesn't like babylon 5. that's pretty bad right there
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> reason I am asking is that I just read this http://butmyopinionisright.tumblr.com/post/31079561065/the-problem-with-the-big-bang-theory
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[18:51] <griffonbot> Received email: Joe "Re: [UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> not watched it
[18:54] <fsphil> I miss Stargate :(
[18:54] <mfa298> thats a long blog post.
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[18:55] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:55] <mfa298> I only recently started watching TBBT and I've enjoyed it. But having watched most of it over the course of a month or two I might not be in the best place to comment
[18:56] <fsphil> interesting comment on the mailing list, that they have rules on density in the USA
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[18:58] <fsphil> pico flights with thin insulation would be quite dense
[18:58] <costyn> fsphil: same here in Netherlands actually
[18:58] <costyn> fsphil: although I've never been sure on how to interpret the figure they give
[18:58] <x-f> here too, 12 g/cm^2, IIRC
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[18:59] <costyn> 13 gr/cm² for us... ok so that would be basically the area of the smallest side of the payload divided by the weight
[19:00] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
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[19:02] <peterbjornx> fsphil, i miss it too
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[19:02] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: I've watched it pretty regularly, I enjoy the show. I have never thought it to be insulting to scientist, but I've yet to read the link you posted
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:03] <Lunar_Lander> I also didn't think of it like the person on the blog says
[19:03] <peterbjornx> costyn, you are the guy i spoke to at revspace, aren't you?
[19:03] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] Polystyrene foam thickness survey."
[19:04] <mfa298> peterbjornx: I can understand why SG-1 had reached the end, but Universe was starting to look promising.
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[19:05] <peterbjornx> mfa, it was, they shouldnt have killed atlantis this soon either
[19:05] <costyn> peterbjornx: yea, indeed
[19:05] <peterbjornx> i just got on my schools CanSat team
[19:05] <peterbjornx> o, have to leave
[19:05] <peterbjornx> brb when at tkkrlab
[19:05] <arko> new curiosity self-portrait http://i.imgur.com/ST4XThe.jpg
[19:05] <peterbjornx> (+/- 1h)
[19:05] <mfa298> would have been good for atlantis to continue for a while - although at least it got a reasonable ending.
[19:06] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: reading the article now, yes, it has a lot of cheap humor directed at the main characters, but there's also a lot more smart humor in it, where they reference things that only fellow nerds would recognize
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[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[19:06] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: much like many kids cartoons contain references to adult things which only an adult would catch, making it amusing to adults and kids alike
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> like Spongebob?
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:07] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: yea
[19:07] <costyn> Lunar_Lander: anyways, the article does have a point of course
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> yes
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[19:11] <costyn> and Penny is not spared in the ridicule. she's often portrayed as a dumb hick :)
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:14] <Babs> Did they design Curiosity to look like Johnny-5 from short circuit in its self-portrait deliberately? It would be an epic in-joke
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[19:17] <fsphil> reminds me of http://imgur.com/gallery/rYdOJ
[19:17] <arko> Babs.. maybe :P
[19:17] <arko> but no
[19:18] <arko> sadly
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[19:27] <arko> woah
[19:27] <arko> math nerds.. go here: http://blog.matthen.com/post/42112703604/the-smooth-motion-of-rotating-circles-can-be-used
[19:28] <arko> visualizing fourier
[19:28] <costyn> fsphil: :D
[19:28] <fsphil> I can't not see it like that now
[19:29] <costyn> hehe
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[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> hi radim_OM2AMR
[19:55] <radim_OM2AMR> hi Lunar_Lander :-)
[19:56] <radim_OM2AMR> anything new with your payload development ?
[19:57] Upu (~Upu@2a00:14f0:e028:0:e4ba:db9:88f5:50f4) left irc:
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> yeah today I assembled the whole package and for the first time the board was supported by the steel wires in the box that we put up
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> that worked well
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> also, the upright GPS antenna is no problem with the lid
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> the whole thing weighs
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> 614 g
[19:59] <fsphil> is the antenna supported by anything?
[19:59] <fsphil> you don't want it shaking
[19:59] <radim_OM2AMR> that's nice, have you a photo ?
[19:59] <mclane> yea would be interested to see
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[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> the problem was that the camera was below the board
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> as I assembled it as it would be on the flight
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> but I can try to resemble it tomorrow and take a photo
[20:03] <fsphil> what is it about wet dogs that make them want to get as near to delicate electronics as possible
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> the antenna isn't supported yet save for the end of the coax cable sticking in the styrofoam wall
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> have to see how to improve that
[20:04] <radim_OM2AMR> try to make picture with the cell phone
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> my Nokia 3310 has no camera
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> one moment
[20:04] <radim_OM2AMR> oh, the best phone ever ! One week battery life...
[20:05] <fsphil> nokias new phones are a bit rubbish
[20:05] <fsphil> I loved my old nokia
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> yea :)
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> ubuntu shows its flaw
[20:06] <fsphil> +s
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> on long uptimes, it doesn't read SD cards anymore
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[20:49] <MrCraig> I just posted my flight docs, can I please request their aproval? 178066a751cc09ecddbb0af3aebc19fd
[20:53] <fsphil> might be quicker to ask in #habhub
[20:53] <MrCraig> thanks fsphil - I'm in no hurry, but will post there also.
[20:54] <MrCraig> I'm guessing the other channel was setup for the development effort
[20:54] <fsphil> yep
[20:54] <fsphil> but generally for anything to do with the system
[20:55] <MrCraig> well that's cool.
[20:56] <MrCraig> Think I'm going to try out the embedded tracker
[20:56] <MrCraig> looks interesting
[20:57] <fsphil> it's very nicely put together
[20:57] <MrCraig> Yup. I am sufficiently impressed
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[21:06] <lz1dev> lol
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[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> radim_OM2AMR, how is your balloon work?
[21:13] <Laurenceb_> http://www.dailyfailcenter.com/sites/default/files/fail/67e7fe2ed05b.jpg
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[21:13] <lz1dev> you want one ?
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[21:27] <chrisstubbs> MrCraig i have my colinear up at the top of the hill here in essex now so i will give tracking a go on saturday, good luck!
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[21:29] <MrCraig> chrisstubbs - I really appreciate it. I'll be tracking without a yagi (because fetching it was a logistical problem) so having a tracker at the top of a hill near-by might be precisely what's needed when it gets below the tree line.
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[21:30] <chrisstubbs> can you send me a prediction, i will check i have line of sight :)
[21:30] <fsphil> ooh saturday launch
[21:31] <MrCraig> sure - maidstone was the last one I ran, but will run another now...
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[21:32] <chrisstubbs> I should have LOS while it goes overhead past chelmsford/london but this is the first trial of the new antenna! so i will have to see what happens
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[21:35] <MrCraig> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=c21a774a51675dbf42aabdc64ba11c646d7069f6 <-- erm, oops
[21:35] <chrisstubbs> yeah i ran that a second ago :(
[21:35] <jcoxon> MrCraig, pah too early for saturday
[21:35] <chrisstubbs> cut a hole in the chute? ;)
[21:36] <fsphil> OT: https://twitter.com/Earth_Pics/status/298533953709694976/photo/1
[21:36] <MrCraig> well - the descent rate I calculated based on the previous flight data, average over just four data points. It's the same payload. The earlier predictions had better results with a faster descent rate. I'll do a better sample and see how it looks
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[21:55] <mfa298> those predictions move west (and wetter) if you launch at a more sensible time, but as jcoxon said it can change a lot over the next days.
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[22:08] <mattbrejza> anyone had any expereince with yupiteru scanners? ( daveake ? )
[22:08] <daveake> yup
[22:08] <daveake> Not bad at all
[22:08] <mattbrejza> awesome
[22:08] <mattbrejza> one more on the list to look out for
[22:09] <mattbrejza> thanks
[22:09] <daveake> Cheapest of the options. The AOR is better built - nicer plastic, bigger buttons etc
[22:09] <daveake> And the ICOM is smaller and has an attenuator
[22:09] <daveake> But any of the 3 will work fine
[22:09] <mattbrejza> yea im not trying to beat anyone on distance records
[22:09] <daveake> The Yupi should be the cheapest
[22:09] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I got a Stabo one which is said to be the same construction
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> it works well in the lab
[22:10] <mattbrejza> also these scanners have a massive range which is nice
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I can listen to the radio while working with it
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:10] <mattbrejza> the ft817 wont do WFM on anything other than ~100, these will
[22:11] <daveake> They're quicker to tune in too; especially handy if you have multiple payloads to switch between
[22:11] <fsphil> do you need WFM anywhere else?
[22:11] <mattbrejza> 137
[22:11] <mattbrejza> wx sats
[22:12] <mattbrejza> only example i can think of
[22:12] <fsphil> good point
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[22:16] <mfa298> I'm wondering if the 9600baud data output on the 817 would give you a better rx for weather sats,
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[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> and commercial radio
[22:17] <mfa298> been a while since I've checked the manual so I might be wrong on that, plus I don't really know enough about wx sats (I just had a quick read of the amsat page)
[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> if I tune in on a station and use FM I get quite a lot of noise
[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> which only disappears on WFM
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[22:21] <fsphil> good reason for that
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> to get more bandwidth?
[22:27] <fsphil> you get clipping, or overmodulation, if the bandwidth is too low for the signal
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:28] <fsphil> it would sound fine during quiet bits
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> but when the music is on it would be afwul?
[22:30] <fsphil> yea, the deviation would be larger than the demodulator can handle
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[22:53] <jarod> has anyone here ever had windows xp doesnt seem to have enough memory to open any program?
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[22:55] <peterbjornx> didnt receive any signals from weather balloons :(
[22:57] <arko> :(
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> jarod, happens sometimes on my old T23 ThinkPad
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> or it happened when I still had Sophos Antivirus
[22:58] <mattbrejza> people still run xp...?
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> I got ubuntu, win 7 and win xp
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> the latter on the lab and chase car laptop
[22:59] <fsphil> we still have win98 machines in the office
[22:59] <mattbrejza> oo special hab laptop
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[23:00] <mattbrejza> fsphil: do they run special machinary or test gear?
[23:00] <mattbrejza> ive come across a NT spec analyser
[23:00] <mattbrejza> first time id used that OS
[23:00] <fsphil> yea they drive a machine
[23:00] <fsphil> sadly, as I'd love to get rid of them
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> I saw almost every windows since 3.11
[23:00] <mattbrejza> xp seems to be a popular test gear OS
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[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> I didn't see NT 4.0, and didn't see Millennium
[23:01] <mattbrejza> i dont think youre missing much
[23:01] <fsphil> the less said about winme the better
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> but 3.11, 95, 98, 98 SE, 2000, XP, Vista, 7
[23:01] <mattbrejza> however if youre bored you could try istalling windows 1.0 and use the upgrade option to go thru all OSes
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[23:01] <mattbrejza> or just watch the youtube video
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> and I didn't get to work on Win 8 yet
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> is it called "Chain of Fools"?
[23:03] <mfa298> the only places you ever wanted to see winme was on the shelf in the shop or prefferably the bin
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> lol "The commercial of Windows 1.0. Steve Ballmer telling about all the features of the OS ... cruchaga ... Ballmer Windows Ridiculous ..."
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[23:04] <fsphil> he's always been an angry monkey
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[23:05] <mattbrejza> Lunar_Lander: w8 is just a squarer version of w7 with a full screen start meni
[23:05] <mattbrejza> u
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> "after a short time reminiscing Steve Ballmer, it was time to move to Windows 2.0"
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> XD
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[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> well
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> this was a journey through history
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> from 1985 to today
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[00:00] --- Tue Feb 5 2013