highaltitude.log.20130116

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[00:27] <griffonbot> Received email: "[UKHAS] Spare seat?"
[00:28] <griffonbot> Received email: Mark Jessop "Re: [UKHAS] Spare seat?"
[00:36] <mattbrejza> as soon as i saw 'send one of them to space' i instantly knew what Darkside 's response was before i glanced down
[00:36] <mattbrejza> also 1.30 reply, not bad
[00:43] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Spare seat?"
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[07:03] <arko> blag
[07:11] <eroomde> morning
[07:13] <arko> morning eroomde
[07:13] <eroomde> arko: what are you blagging?
[07:13] <arko> not actual blagging
[07:13] <arko> but more blerg
[07:13] <arko> im hyped on caffine
[07:13] <arko> caffeine
[07:14] <eroomde> ah right
[07:14] <eroomde> what time is it there?
[07:14] <arko> 11:15
[07:14] <arko> pm
[07:14] <arko> you?
[07:15] <eroomde> 7:15
[07:15] <eroomde> am
[07:15] <eroomde> woo for the jetlag i'm about to have
[07:16] <arko> when does you flight leave?
[07:16] <eroomde> 1300
[07:16] <eroomde> arrives 1600
[07:16] <arko> wait what
[07:16] <arko> today?
[07:16] <eroomde> oh
[07:16] <eroomde> snday
[07:16] <eroomde> lol
[07:16] <arko> this sunday?
[07:16] <eroomde> sunday*
[07:16] <eroomde> yes
[07:16] <arko> awesome
[07:16] <arko> you will be awake when i will :P
[07:16] <arko> hah
[07:17] <arko> i feel jet lagged with this new school work schedule
[07:17] <eroomde> school does that
[07:17] <arko> i keep doing 6am-12pm during the week and 11am-3am during the weekend
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[07:17] <arko> hah
[07:17] <eroomde> it's a terrible imposition that you can't spend 2 hours having breakfast
[07:17] <arko> dude, i miss breakfast
[07:17] <arko> my favorite meal
[07:18] <eroomde> i love it
[07:18] <eroomde> i am having it right now
[07:18] Action: arko dreams of pancakes
[07:18] Action: arko is now jealous
[07:18] <eroomde> it's me, black coffee, toast, guadrian website/irc and radio 4
[07:18] <eroomde> next to a warm radiator
[07:18] <arko> haha, is it a british thing to do radio 4?
[07:18] <eroomde> (temp <0C here)
[07:18] <eroomde> not universally but it is very british yes
[07:18] <arko> heh we are 1C right now
[07:19] <eroomde> you know where you are with radio 4
[07:19] <eroomde> it's unchanging
[07:19] <arko> my favorite part about tuesday nights is heading home from the hackerspace at 2am
[07:19] <arko> listening to npr
[07:19] <arko> which is broadcasting bbc
[07:20] <eroomde> ah cool!
[07:20] <arko> *feelin british*
[07:20] <eroomde> so what would that be then?
[07:20] <eroomde> start-the-week?
[07:20] <eroomde> woman's hour?
[07:20] <arko> yep
[07:20] <arko> i dunno
[07:20] <eroomde> woman's hour is amazing
[07:20] <arko> its the morning news
[07:20] <arko> world news?
[07:20] <eroomde> it's like an appendix, but the risk of removing it is considered not worth it
[07:20] <arko> i forget
[07:21] <eroomde> today, incest, a political interview about the grooming of young girls, and how to make mayonaise live in the studio!
[07:21] <arko> hahaha
[07:21] <eroomde> occassionally they have 'Man's Hour' is a spoof for charity
[07:22] <eroomde> usually presented by something like a top gear presenter or former tabloid editor
[07:22] <arko> hahaha
[07:22] <arko> dude
[07:22] <arko> thats awesome
[07:22] <arko> clarkson
[07:23] <arko> today, boobs, sex, bacon, and hammond finds a hat
[07:23] <eroomde> i'd listen
[07:24] <arko> word
[07:26] <eroomde> thanks
[07:26] <eroomde> maybe i can pick your brains re that email
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[07:26] <eroomde> do you know of a decent sim only pay-as-you-go that will give me a decent data and voice for about a month?
[07:26] <arko> hahahahahahaha
[07:26] <arko> in the us?
[07:26] <arko> hahahahaha
[07:26] <eroomde> my phone is unlocked and given i'm there for 4 weeks i thought it might be worth getting a local sim
[07:27] <arko> our data plans are a joke
[07:27] <eroomde> well, i don;t need to go mad really
[07:27] <eroomde> can lay off youtube
[07:27] <arko> heh
[07:27] <eroomde> but email and gmaps and stuff would be useful
[07:27] <arko> well
[07:27] <arko> yes
[07:27] <arko> one sec
[07:27] <eroomde> i don't mind spending more than I would in the uk, as it's a holiday expensive
[07:27] <arko> T-Mobile is the best deal
[07:27] <eroomde> maybe up to like $60?
[07:28] <arko> about
[07:28] <arko> if you pop in the sim yeah
[07:28] <arko> with a phone it's more
[07:28] <eroomde> yeah
[07:28] <eroomde> sim-only is all i want
[07:28] <eroomde> and no paperwork
[07:28] <arko> btw, AT&T has bought all the subways in NY
[07:28] <arko> cell coverage wise
[07:28] <arko> fyi
[07:28] <arko> i think, at least my friend from ny said that
[07:28] <eroomde> ah right
[07:28] <eroomde> that's good to know
[07:28] <arko> yeah
[07:29] <arko> at&t and verizon get the best service out here
[07:29] <arko> t-mobile does cost less, but for a reason :P
[07:29] <eroomde> although given i'm in no hurry to be anywhere, snow permitting, i was hoping to walk overground everywhere
[07:29] <arko> you should be fine
[07:29] <eroomde> i'm assuming given i'll be in major cities mostly that i should be ok
[07:29] <eroomde> oh
[07:30] <eroomde> the lady who runs our deli at work has asked me to get a tortilla press of about 10-12" diameter
[07:30] <arko> yeah
[07:30] <eroomde> do you instantly say 'oh yes you can get that anywhere' or do i need to seek something out more specialist?
[07:30] <arko> nah man
[07:30] <arko> sears or something
[07:30] <arko> fat americans, we have like 48"
[07:30] <arko> some of them are like the size of tv's
[07:31] <arko> joking aside, you can probably pick one up at Sears, Walmart, Costco
[07:31] <arko> or just amazon it :P
[07:31] <eroomde> cool
[07:31] <arko> that is the funniest request i've heard
[07:31] <eroomde> i thought it was a bit odd too
[07:31] <arko> "oh going to the US? get me a tortilla press plz"
[07:32] <arko> "hello sir, is that torilla press you're carry on?"
[07:32] <arko> your*
[07:33] <eroomde> but it's not really something you can buy over here
[07:33] <arko> really?
[07:33] <eroomde> nope
[07:33] <arko> hmm
[07:33] <arko> even over amazon?
[07:33] <eroomde> hence her request
[07:34] <eroomde> amazon uk comes up with nowt
[07:34] <arko> wow
[07:35] <arko> you arent kidding
[07:35] <arko> http://www.amazon.com/Chef-Inch-Tortilla-Maker-Bread/dp/B002HFQWH6/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1358321684&sr=8-9&keywords=tortilla+press
[07:35] <arko> or steal one from Chipotle
[07:36] <arko> http://www.webstaurantstore.com/doughxpress-txm-15-manual-tortilla-press-15-x-15-220v/325TXM15%20%20%20%20220.html?utm_source=Amazon
[07:36] <arko> haha! 220V too
[07:36] <eroomde> lol
[07:36] <eroomde> not gonna get that back in my luggage
[07:36] <arko> carryon
[07:37] <arko> no biggy
[07:38] <eroomde> only 6kg allowance, annoyingly
[07:38] <arko> damn that sucks
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[07:41] <arko> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2013-020#1
[07:41] <arko> DRILL BABY DRILL
[07:42] <arko> can't wait
[07:42] <eroomde> nice
[07:44] <eroomde> what's the drilling rate?
[07:44] <arko> rpm or depth?
[07:45] <arko> i actually dont know either, but it's not a standard drill
[07:45] <arko> its an impact drill
[07:46] <arko> 1800 bpm
[07:47] <eroomde> quite impacty
[07:47] <arko> yes
[07:47] <arko> it's very noisy
[07:48] <eroomde> there is presumably some kind of fatigue life limits on the drill that are a bit shorter than the rest of the rover?
[07:48] <arko> yeah
[07:49] <arko> http://www.businessinsider.com/curiosity-rovers-drill-will-break-eventually-2012-12
[07:52] <eroomde> ouch
[07:53] <arko> yeah....
[07:53] <fsphil> yea bit of a shame that
[07:54] <fsphil> the next one needs a more powerful laser. none of this pansy drill stuff
[07:54] <arko> make clean
[07:54] <arko> ah balls
[07:54] <arko> keep doing that :/
[07:55] <fsphil> I always do that before going to work
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[08:06] <arko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OawY6sUAn3g&feature=youtu.be
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[08:41] <Spoz> So the Air Force found out about my balloon plans and they arent too happy
[08:41] <fsphil> why?
[08:41] <oh7lzb> Where, and how?
[08:41] <Spoz> they reminded me the penalty for having or operating a camera in or over a restricted military area is imprisonment
[08:42] <Spoz> and the air traffic controller for the non-restricted airspace told me that if we lose the balloon he has to shut down the airspace
[08:42] <Spoz> and guess who pays for that
[08:42] <fsphil> that's a bit stupid
[08:42] <Spoz> mm
[08:43] <fsphil> ask them how they handle met sondes
[08:43] <Spoz> so I'll fit a radar reflector, and perhaps a cutdown mechanism that will trigger if the balloon goes into a certain coordinate range
[08:43] <Spoz> I did, they said they have reliable position information
[08:43] <fsphil> not always
[08:43] <Spoz> and they didnt have a lot of faith in me calling them to tell them where the balloon is every 10-15 mins
[08:43] <Spoz> but said it would help
[08:43] <UpuWork> tell them to look at the map
[08:44] <Spoz> yeah problem is I dont know how reliable that will be... I'll tell them that for sure, but if something fails I dont want to be liable for anything
[08:44] <oh7lzb> Do they actually get met sonde info?
[08:44] <Spoz> legally they cant stop us launching it
[08:44] <Spoz> yes
[08:45] <Spoz> casa was talking to the airspace managers on my behalf
[08:45] <Spoz> and relayed this back to me
[08:45] <Spoz> so it looks like we're going for a camping trip this weekend
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[08:59] <Spoz> how accurate is the cusf landing predictor 3 days out
[08:59] <UpuWork> somewhere between "meh" and "ish"
[08:59] <Spoz> ok
[08:59] <UpuWork> how accurate is the weather forcast 3 days in advance
[09:00] <Spoz> the synoptic is usually not too far off here
[09:04] <eroomde> usually depends on the entropy of the weather
[09:04] <eroomde> so if it's all stormy, a lot can change between T-72hrs and T-0
[09:04] <eroomde> but if it's still and clear and will remain so for a few days, it's usually better
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[09:06] <Spoz> its unstable further north, looks like just a bit of rain for the weekend
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[10:40] <SpeedEvil> in these chilly days, don't forget to think of the less fortunate.
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACraqnQoIsg
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[10:45] <Laurenceb> omg techno trips
[10:49] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6t-EjrtD3U
[10:49] <SpeedEvil> was the link I meant to post
[10:49] <SpeedEvil> oops
[10:55] <Spoz> I cant seem to find any guide as to how big a radar reflector should be
[11:01] <fsphil> probably quite massive
[11:01] <Spoz> hm
[11:01] <Spoz> well radar is 1060hz
[11:01] <Spoz> oh hang on, no it isnt
[11:01] <Spoz> Im thinking of ssr
[11:01] <Spoz> and mhz
[11:01] <Spoz> its microwave
[11:02] <Spoz> so wavelength isnt an issue but it's luminosity might be
[11:03] <craag> Most photos of the american hab flights looked about 30-50cm across I think.
[11:03] <fsphil> even that's probably not big enough
[11:03] <craag> Yeah..
[11:04] <craag> I guess you'll have to ask them how big they want it to be.
[11:04] <Spoz> hmmm
[11:04] <Spoz> a corner reflector should be pretty good
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[11:19] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "Re: [UKHAS] Spare seat?"
[11:23] <UpuWork> oh yay
[11:24] <mattbrejza> i was under the impression he hasnt launched before>#
[11:24] <WillDuckworth> does CHris come on here?
[11:24] <mattbrejza> ># = ?
[11:25] <UpuWork> he hasn't launched
[11:25] <UpuWork> he gives out bad advice
[11:27] <costyn> :)
[11:28] <cuddykid> lol
[11:28] <jonsowman> hmm
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[11:29] <cuddykid> he's had 1 unsuccessful launch iirc - I think it was too windy and it crashed into a tree or wall and burst
[11:30] <daveake> expert then :/
[11:30] <cuddykid> yeah :/
[11:31] <WillDuckworth> the initial response to the poor chap wasn't exactly helpful
[11:31] <daveake> You expect anything better from an Aussie? :p
[11:31] <fsphil> it was correct
[11:32] <mattbrejza> btw are there any pro-tips you have for getting launch permission?
[11:32] <mattbrejza> we have the forms and a proposed launch site
[11:33] <daveake> Change your name to "David"
[11:33] <cuddykid> be persistent, but nice to DM :)
[11:33] <mattbrejza> im not doing it, but the person who is seems like theyll be nice to him
[11:34] <daveake> Yeah, I think for the first launch call him up a couple of workdays before the launch, just to check it's all going through ok
[11:35] <mattbrejza> the site has been used befor ei think, so thall help
[11:35] <daveake> yup
[11:35] <daveake> Worth mentioning that in the email
[11:35] <daveake> I always add "same launch site as usual" to the email, so he knows he has less work to do
[11:35] <cuddykid> yeah, he likes when all the details are the same
[11:35] <eroomde> i sent him a diff file ones
[11:35] <eroomde> once*
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[11:36] <daveake> :)
[11:36] <eroomde> change this telephone number on line 4 to this telephone number. thange this date to this date. Change this name to this name
[11:36] <eroomde> thanks bye
[11:37] <daveake> I think he dislikes long periods. I've done one of 9 consecutive days, and he did ask for confirmation before he did the work. Mind yoiu, I don't like those either - the calls from pilots get a bit much
[11:37] <mattbrejza> mind you last time it was used the launch was somewhat unconventional, so its not quite the same
[11:37] <mattbrejza> if only the weather would behave
[11:38] <mattbrejza> well if it all goes tits up, we'll have to ask cusf nicely
[11:38] <daveake> We need a new revamped application system. Simple web form, prefilled in from last time. And with a section "What type of weather would you like?" ... "A: Warm, sunny, no clouds, calm"
[11:39] <mattbrejza> wind: N/E/S ...
[11:39] <daveake> Landing site: empty field, not muddy, next to a road, ample parking, no trees
[11:39] <mattbrejza> next to pub
[11:39] <mattbrejza> good 3G signal
[11:39] <fsphil> he got sick of me re-applying due to bad conditions when I was first launching, suggested I apply for a month
[11:39] <daveake> of course :)
[11:40] <daveake> hah
[11:40] <cuddykid> I usually do 3 weekends worth
[11:40] <cuddykid> then he checks after the first weekend if I need it for subsequent weekends
[11:41] <daveake> yes, ditto (will usually I ask for 2)
[11:41] <mattbrejza> i think we wanted a week
[11:41] <WillDuckworth> yeah - same
[11:42] <mattbrejza> students having nothing better to do etc
[11:42] <daveake> lol
[11:42] <daveake> I always let him know how it went. Sometimes add pix. All in the name of keeping a friendly relationship :)
[11:42] <eroomde> i tried that once
[11:42] <cuddykid> ditto (without the pic)
[11:42] <mattbrejza> does he respond to your pics and launch info?
[11:43] <eroomde> but tbh i think our permenent notam has grandfather status and it's the easiest solution to just keep it
[11:43] <eroomde> for him
[11:43] <eroomde> so i tried not to go overboard lest we attract too much attention
[11:43] <GMT> ever considered inviting him along to a launch?
[11:43] <cuddykid> you must have had hell getting that!
[11:43] <eroomde> yep several people have offered to him
[11:43] <eroomde> he's not really interested
[11:43] <eroomde> cuddykid: nope
[11:43] <eroomde> it seemed like the easiest thing at the time
[11:44] <eroomde> after he'd screwed us and steve up back in the v early days not being able to get us a notam intime, we said can we find a better way and he just went for a rolling 6 month notam
[11:44] <cuddykid> good good
[11:44] <jonsowman> he won't do them nowadays though
[11:44] <daveake> I think he was invited to the conf in 2011 but wasn't interested
[11:45] <mattbrejza> i dont think he wanted to spend his weekends doing work
[11:45] <daveake> mattbrejza He has responded but only once or twice
[11:45] <daveake> Think I only sent pix once
[11:45] <daveake> I do make a point of thanking him for his help
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[11:46] <mattbrejza> i suppose hes not gonna repond to 'thanks a lot'
[11:46] <mattbrejza> jonsowman: didnt you mention at one point you could get a NoV for a site and get a NOTAM when you wanted it? :/
[11:46] <jonsowman> we did discuss that with DM at one point
[11:46] <jonsowman> and by 'we' I do not mean me
[11:47] <jonsowman> I'm not sure what resulted really, Adam might
[11:47] <mattbrejza> doesnt seem worth it for what will probably be two launches this year
[11:48] <eroomde> a thought:
[11:48] <jonsowman> for soton you mean?
[11:49] <eroomde> Linear Tech do thermoelectric energy harvesting ICs that will give you 5V from as low as 20mV
[11:50] <eroomde> you could make a peltier energy harvester for a payload
[11:50] <eroomde> one plate facing down at the ~270K earth
[11:50] <eroomde> the other face facing up into the ~10K space
[11:50] <jonsowman> hmm, neat
[11:50] <eroomde> so you could get power at night
[11:50] <eroomde> to complement solar in the day
[11:51] <jonsowman> yes
[11:52] <eroomde> i wonder what kind of power you could get
[11:52] <jonsowman> in fact in the daytime you might get the reverse effect due to sunlight on the top surface
[11:52] <jonsowman> at reasonable altitude anyway
[11:52] <eroomde> maybe enough to keep a gps ticking in lower power mode with a logging microcontroller
[11:52] <eroomde> yes perhaps
[11:53] <eroomde> i think you'd have to keep the two surfaces highly insulated
[11:53] <jonsowman> maybe with a ublox 7 that needs stupidly small amounts of current
[11:53] <jonsowman> yes
[11:53] <eroomde> some kind of array of alumised myler sheets as in the james webb telescope
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[11:53] <eroomde> so the top plate can only see deep space
[11:54] <jonsowman> seems plausible
[11:55] <mattbrejza> interesting
[11:55] <mattbrejza> jonsowman: yea ment soton
[11:55] <jonsowman> mm probably not worth it
[11:56] <eroomde> UpuWork / jcoxon
[11:56] <eroomde> http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3105
[11:56] <eroomde> all the hard work of conditioning a solar cell and getting max power out of it all done in a wee chip
[11:57] <jonsowman> crazy
[11:57] <WillDuckworth> v interesting
[12:01] <fsphil> ah cool, does MPP
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> neat
[12:02] <eroomde> indeed, that's the killer feature
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[13:07] <Spoz> Is there any reason to choose ascii7 or ascii8?
[13:07] <Spoz> as the rtty encoding?
[13:08] <Darkside> well
[13:08] <Darkside> ascii7 is less bits to send :P
[13:08] <Darkside> that MSB is always going to be 0 anyway
[13:09] <Spoz> yeah true
[13:17] <Spoz> So you use 300 baud... do you reckon I should stick with that?
[13:17] <Spoz> or slow it down
[13:17] <mattbrejza> 50 baud keeps people at distance happy
[13:18] <mattbrejza> but 300 gives you most data
[13:18] <Spoz> I dont need much data I guess
[13:18] <mattbrejza> and potentially a lower position bvefore it lands
[13:18] <Darkside> i'd use 50 baud for your first launch
[13:18] <Spoz> ok cool
[13:18] <Spoz> it sounds better anyway :p
[13:18] <Darkside> if you don't have problems, then use 300 next time
[13:18] <Spoz> blipblbipblip
[13:18] <Spoz> sure
[13:19] <mattbrejza> you can always sent both, but that also annoys people
[13:19] <Spoz> yeah
[13:19] <mattbrejza> and if youll miss some
[13:19] <Spoz> 50 is fine
[13:19] <mattbrejza> but then you send more anyway
[13:19] <mattbrejza> maybe consider 300 if you had loads of data
[13:21] <Spoz> So am I right in thinking I only transmit each packet once
[13:21] <Spoz> rather than keep sending until a new one is available
[13:21] <mattbrejza> yea
[13:21] <Spoz> ok easy
[13:21] <mattbrejza> well gps updates at 1Hz so youll always have new data
[13:21] <mattbrejza> if it looses lock then transmit last lock + time
[13:21] <Spoz> yeah
[13:22] <mattbrejza> rather than nothing - if it lands and looses lock youll want to know where it was 100m ago
[13:22] <Spoz> yeah
[13:24] <Darkside> polled mode is nice for this
[13:24] <Darkside> you just poll teh gps for data at the start of your loop
[13:24] <Darkside> poll gps, construct string, transmit, repeat
[13:25] <Spoz> ah I was trying to work out what was going on there
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[13:25] <Spoz> all makes sense now
[13:25] <Darkside> i just turn off all the regular NMEA sentences
[13:25] <Spoz> yep
[13:25] <Darkside> so i don't have to deal with asynchrous data
[13:25] <Spoz> I was doing the same thing
[13:25] <Darkside> i should probably switch to UBX binary at some point
[13:26] <Darkside> but atm i CBF changing the micronut code, as it works
[13:26] <mattbrejza> do you have some nice interrupt driven code that dates back to lassens?
[13:26] <Darkside> i don't, no
[13:26] <Darkside> i never used lassens
[13:26] <Darkside> i started with a FSA03 :-)
[13:26] <mattbrejza> well lassens or whatever
[13:26] <Darkside> i do have interrupt driven code for serial comms though
[13:27] <Darkside> its annoying to do in arduino
[13:27] <Darkside> serial
[13:27] <Darkside> serialEvent is not a proper interrupt service handler
[13:27] <mattbrejza> more so than raw AVR?
[13:27] <Darkside> it just gets called in between loops
[13:27] <mattbrejza> oh
[13:27] <Darkside> well, arduino implements a serial ISR
[13:27] <Darkside> in which it does its own thing (copying data to a ring buffer)
[13:27] <mattbrejza> why not just use the 'normal' isr?
[13:27] <Darkside> that's all well and good
[13:27] <Darkside> i did
[13:27] <mattbrejza> ah
[13:28] <Darkside> i wrote a patch for arduino's serial stuff
[13:28] <Darkside> that added a setCallback function, where i could set a pointer to a callback function
[13:28] <mattbrejza> i just use AVRs and AVRs
[13:28] <Darkside> if the pointer isn't null, instead of doing all the ring buffer shit, it runs that function instead
[13:28] <Darkside> works like a charm
[13:28] <Darkside> and should have been in arduino from the very beginning
[13:28] <Darkside> serialEvent is a cop out
[13:29] <daveake> +1
[13:29] <mattbrejza> real men program in assembler...
[13:29] <Darkside> mattbrejza: butterflies
[13:29] <mattbrejza> not that i have
[13:29] <mattbrejza> ?
[13:29] <Darkside> XKCD reference
[13:29] <mattbrejza> oh
[13:29] <Darkside> anyway, i do like the arduino environment
[13:30] <mattbrejza> http://xkcd.com/378/ ah
[13:30] <Darkside> it's good for projects that don't need to be debugged
[13:30] <Darkside> well, don't need to be debugged to the point of looking at registers and memory
[13:30] <mattbrejza> well you have to use debugWire to debug rather than ISP?
[13:30] <Darkside> eh?
[13:30] <Darkside> most of my boards are programmed via ISP anyway
[13:31] <Darkside> i don't see the point of putting another serial header on my pcbs if i already have an ISP header for programming
[13:31] <Darkside> and the arduino 'IDE' (not really what it is) can program sketches via an ISP
[13:31] <mattbrejza> i thought to debug an AVR you needed to use debugwire
[13:31] <mattbrejza> i didnt think you could debug via ISP
[13:31] <Darkside> dunno
[13:32] <mattbrejza> i would put a MSP430 on a new board now tbh
[13:32] <Darkside> well, if you're used to it
[13:32] <Darkside> and you will be now
[13:32] <mattbrejza> its not too different from a AVR tbh
[13:32] <mattbrejza> its not the step up that ARM is
[13:32] <Darkside> yeah
[13:32] <Darkside> most of the code would be portable
[13:33] <Darkside> it's just the hardware interaction
[13:33] <eroomde> i'm doing something with the xmegas
[13:33] <eroomde> they're really very nice
[13:33] <mattbrejza> yaea but TI are good for examples
[13:33] <Darkside> yeah i've used them eroomde
[13:33] <mattbrejza> so not hard
[13:33] <Darkside> my first tracker was on an xmega
[13:33] <Darkside> i 'ported' tinyGPS to C
[13:33] <Darkside> :P
[13:33] <eroomde> i'm v impressed with them so far. the peripherals are well thought out and the documentation is excellent
[13:33] <Darkside> win 23
[13:34] <Darkside> heh
[13:34] <Darkside> but yeah, i had a look at ARM cortex stuff
[13:34] <Darkside> it certainly is a step up
[13:34] <Randomskk> the peripherals on something like an stm32 are lovely. but also you get 32bit and a ton of flash and ram.
[13:34] <Randomskk> still the xmegas are really neat.
[13:35] <Randomskk> just I don't think I'd bother using them any more when an stm32 is so cheap
[13:35] <Darkside> it was cool that you coudl wire up a SDRAM chip
[13:35] <Darkside> and gain a shit-ton of RAM
[13:35] <mattbrejza> you can do that iwth the 644s?
[13:35] <Darkside> and it'd just extend the memory space
[13:35] <Darkside> dunno
[13:35] <mattbrejza> or 664 :/
[13:35] <eroomde> yeah, they are good. the annoyances for me are: 1) slightly less robust toolchain (tho am being unfair comparing all cortex with avr when i should really just pick one cortex vendor) and the separate core manuals and peripheral manuals
[13:35] <eroomde> which can make figuring out what to do at the interfaces, eg something like non-trivial DMA, quite annoying
[13:36] <Darkside> mm the DMA on the xmega could be useful
[13:36] <eroomde> and there's just loads of stuff in the datasheet and seemingly less in the way of pedagogical app notes
[13:36] <Darkside> dunno what i'd do with it
[13:36] <eroomde> i'm using it for motor control
[13:36] <Darkside> maybe use it for sampling ADCs to ram?
[13:36] <eroomde> to handle all the quadrature encoder stuff
[13:36] <Darkside> oh yeah, thats what the xmegas have
[13:36] <eroomde> you could do it for that just fine too
[13:36] <Darkside> quadrature decoders
[13:36] <eroomde> anything boring and repetitive
[13:36] <Darkside> friend of mine made a motor control board using one
[13:37] <Darkside> i forget exactly what it was for
[13:37] <Darkside> but it was designed to go into some existing unit
[13:40] <zyp> eroomde, cortex toolchain being less robust?
[13:40] <Randomskk> avr toolchain is super easy. cortex toolchain is definitely more of a faff
[13:40] <zyp> nah
[13:41] <Randomskk> well. an open source command line one is anyway
[13:41] <zyp> nah
[13:41] <Randomskk> not that bad, these days, but still more faff
[13:41] <Randomskk> I said 'more'
[13:41] <Randomskk> and stand by it :P
[13:41] <zyp> https://launchpad.net/gcc-arm-embedded/ <- just grab this, it works.
[13:42] <Randomskk> still gotta make linker scripts, the build process is more involved, there's nothing quite like avr-libc
[13:42] <Randomskk> they're just more complicated chips and it shows
[13:42] <eroomde> i stand by it too
[13:42] <zyp> well, that part is true, considering linker scripts depend on memory layout which varies between vendors
[13:42] <Randomskk> having said all that
[13:42] <eroomde> there's no cortexdude either
[13:43] <Randomskk> it's definitely _hugely_ easier than it used to be
[13:43] <eroomde> as in 'here is a hex file just shut up and put it on'
[13:43] <Randomskk> especially with stuff like libopencm3 providing most of what you need in a linker script and makefile and library, and summon-arm-toolchain and gcc-arm-embedded providing most of the actual toolchain binaries
[13:43] <zyp> eroomde, except openocd?
[13:43] <Randomskk> openocd is a bit pants
[13:43] <Randomskk> config scripts for that are a mess
[13:43] <eroomde> openocd is not that, last time u used it
[13:43] <Darkside> "a bit pants"
[13:43] <eroomde> it wasn;t shut-up-and-put-it-on
[13:43] <zyp> :p
[13:43] <Darkside> you just went full british
[13:44] <Randomskk> I am full british
[13:44] <Randomskk> 100% of the time
[13:44] <zyp> well, true enough
[13:44] <Darkside> i realise that
[13:44] <zyp> I dislike openocd myself
[13:44] <Darkside> i could go full australian
[13:44] <eroomde> it was likes make a sever in this terminal window, then lets open up another terminal window and telnet into it, then let's manuall send commnds
[13:44] <Darkside> but i'd get kicked for swearing
[13:44] <Randomskk> zyp: but stuff like the black magic probe works with gdb and does make it all just work
[13:44] <zyp> yeah
[13:44] <Randomskk> <3 my bmp
[13:44] <zyp> that's what I use myself
[13:45] <eroomde> that's specifically my complaint about the lack of a cortexdude, i say that because openocd is a pain in the arse my comparison
[13:45] <Randomskk> yea.
[13:45] <Randomskk> get a black magic probe, bypass openocd entirely
[13:45] <eroomde> i might
[13:45] <Randomskk> it's a jtag dongle that appears as a serial port
[13:45] <Randomskk> then you just tell gdb to use that serial port
[13:45] <Randomskk> and bam! gdb can program, debug, etc
[13:45] <zyp> eroomde, a bunch of the newer stm32s ship with a built-in dfu bootloader that works with dfu-util without any hassle
[13:45] <Randomskk> oh really?
[13:46] <Randomskk> I thought they all used that dfu that ST made that was incompatible with dfu-util
[13:46] <Randomskk> just to be annoying
[13:46] <zyp> true
[13:46] <zyp> but dfu-util supports that.
[13:46] <Randomskk> ah nice :P
[13:46] <Randomskk> still gotta have a button to toggle BOOT0 between bootloader and flash though, which seems silly
[13:47] <zyp> you can also invoke it from software if you want
[13:47] <Randomskk> hm I guess. never tried that
[13:47] <zyp> just jump to the bootloader memory area
[13:47] <Randomskk> just jump-- yea
[13:47] <eroomde> regardless, even using gdb to flash a chip is more annoying than it might be. it's still not 'here is a hex file now do your thing'
[13:47] <Randomskk> I guess that'd work nicely
[13:47] <Darkside> man
[13:47] <eroomde> it's targetting then attaching and so on
[13:47] <Darkside> i have an idea for a geocache now
[13:47] <Darkside> based on the DLX bytecode idea
[13:47] <zyp> eroomde, I still disagree
[13:47] <Darkside> AVR bytecode
[13:48] <Darkside> which spits the cache coords out the serial port
[13:48] <zyp> having gotten used to work from gdb, I wouldn't trade it for anything else
[13:48] <Randomskk> eroomde: nah using gdb is basically one thing on the command line to program
[13:48] <Randomskk> but does need something like bmp which is not as cheap as a usbtinyisp or something
[13:48] <Randomskk> dfu-util is also "here's a hex file, now go"
[13:48] <eroomde> that would be the thing
[13:48] <Randomskk> you could have a good argument against there now being like five different ways to program the chips, none ubiquitous
[13:49] <zyp> Randomskk, they can be made cheap
[13:49] <Randomskk> but they're not
[13:49] <zyp> I recently assembled a batch of my own
[13:49] <zyp> with some modified connectors
[13:49] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/n71NA.JPG
[13:50] <Randomskk> oh nice
[13:50] <Randomskk> though I think the bmp mini has the same 2x5 connector :P
[13:50] <Randomskk> what're the pads at the end for?
[13:50] <zyp> old-style 20-pin
[13:50] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/vV9Bt.JPG
[13:50] <Randomskk> ooh
[13:50] <Randomskk> yes
[13:50] <Randomskk> that's neat.
[13:51] <Randomskk> wait
[13:51] <Randomskk> your target has female 2x10 headers?
[13:51] <Randomskk> why not give the target 2x10 male headers then have your PCB slot between them?
[13:51] <zyp> target has male headers, my pcb has female
[13:52] <Randomskk> oh I see
[13:52] <Randomskk> can't you get away with not soldering the female headers on?
[13:52] <zyp> I wouldn't trust that
[13:52] <Randomskk> kinda unreliable I guess
[13:52] <Randomskk> nice bmps anyway
[13:52] <zyp> anyway, on my own boards I just use the 1.27mm 2x5 connector
[13:53] <zyp> and then I use a bunch of other boards with neither, hooked up with flywires, so it's nice to have a clearly labeled seperate header for that too
[13:53] <Randomskk> yea. the 2x5 is nice
[13:53] <Randomskk> but indeed, they look neat.
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[13:53] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/UWX2Z.JPG <- like the stellaris launchpad
[13:54] <Randomskk> I see we have the same 2x5 -> 2x10 adapter board too :P
[13:56] <zyp> I got so tired of the ribbon cables that I just soldered it directly to the bmp :p
[13:56] <Randomskk> hehe
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[14:02] <Darkside> hmm
[14:02] <Darkside> Randomskk: eroomde
[14:02] <Darkside> signal processing people
[14:02] <Darkside> trying to recall something i spoke with a sig-processing lecturer about a while back
[14:02] <Darkside> cost functions for a modulation scheme optimisation problem i'm working
[14:03] <Darkside> it was working out occupied channel bandwidth, but it didn't involve a FFT
[14:03] <Darkside> as the results from using a FFT were quite noisy
[14:03] <Darkside> i can't remember much more than that.. any ideas?
[14:03] <Randomskk> nothing comes to mind. a technique for analysing a real life channel or theoretical?
[14:04] <Darkside> analysing a generated signl
[14:04] <Darkside> baseband signal
[14:04] <Darkside> so could be used to analyse a real signal too
[14:04] <Darkside> i'd ask the lecturer, but he's on holidays
[14:07] <eroomde> erm, well, 'not FFT' might be a bit cheeky in this context as it sort of is depending on how you look at it, but there's a whole range of Periodogram-based techniques
[14:07] <eroomde> for estimating spectrum densities of signals
[14:08] <Randomskk> heh
[14:08] <Darkside> mm
[14:08] <eroomde> There's Bartlett's Method and Welch's Method as two examples of periodogram stuff, which are often referred to on their own
[14:08] <Darkside> i'm pretty much after a XdB bandwidth measure
[14:09] <Darkside> so, what is the 6db bandwidth of the signal, or what is the 10dB bandwidth
[14:09] <eroomde> hmmm
[14:09] <Randomskk> Darkside: http://www-sigproc.eng.cam.ac.uk/~sss40/4f7material/powerSpecEstimation.pdf http://www-sigproc.eng.cam.ac.uk/~sss40/4f7material/periodogram.pdf http://www-sigproc.eng.cam.ac.uk/~sss40/4f7material/improvingPeriodo.pdf
[14:09] <Randomskk> covers what eroomde's describing
[14:09] <eroomde> Carson's Rule?
[14:09] <eroomde> that was for estimating FM bandiwdths iirc
[14:09] <Randomskk> though calling it a not-fft method is indeed cheeky :P
[14:09] <eroomde> i'm sort of plumbing the depths of my recollections here
[14:09] <Randomskk> yea, carson's is for fm bandwidths but it's just a rule of thumb?
[14:10] <Randomskk> given a certain data rate
[14:10] <Randomskk> or, no, frequency deviation
[14:10] <eroomde> ah, sumeet's notes
[14:10] <eroomde> why you prose when you can express it all stmbolically
[14:10] <Randomskk> quite
[14:12] <Darkside> oh eyah
[14:12] <Darkside> i got an ingress invite
[14:12] <Darkside> havent had a chance to play with it though
[14:12] <Randomskk> :D
[14:12] <eroomde> i have no idea what that means
[14:12] <Darkside> alternate reality game
[14:12] <Randomskk> yea once I finish this report i might go wonder around cambridge a bit
[14:13] <Darkside> i havent gone through the tutorials yet
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[14:13] <Darkside> and it's going to be 42 degrees outside tomorrow
[14:13] <Randomskk> eroomde: https://xkcd.com/1143/
[14:13] <Darkside> so i probably won't be collecting XM or hacking any portals tomorrow
[14:13] <Darkside> wait
[14:13] <Darkside> that's an ingress reference?
[14:13] <Randomskk> yes :P
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[14:13] <Darkside> so they are portals?
[14:14] <Randomskk> yes
[14:14] <eroomde> i am not sure i want to know what this is either
[14:14] <Darkside> lol
[14:14] <Darkside> it is google's way of getting good location data
[14:14] <Darkside> while making oyu think you are playing a game
[14:14] <Randomskk> what useful data do you think they're getting from it?
[14:14] <Darkside> dunno
[14:15] <zyp> I also got an ingress invite today
[14:15] <Darkside> gps tracks?
[14:15] <eroomde> find the users without girlfriends, maybe
[14:15] <eroomde> sorry i was briefly channeling Laurenceb
[14:15] <Darkside> burn
[14:15] <Randomskk> not sure how gps tracks are really helpful. the best theory I heard was it shows what routes people take to walk between landmarks but I'm a bit dubious
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[14:24] <Darkside> night all
[14:24] <Spoz> night
[14:26] <Laurenceb> eroomde: you mean find all the users?
[14:30] <eroomde> boom
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[14:53] <Laurenceb> this was a bad idea....
[14:53] <Laurenceb> 1:00:09 Rendering line 78 of 800, 687 supersamples
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[16:00] <anerDev> hi guys !
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[16:18] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOdz7Ig_dCg law and order - Irish style
[16:18] <lz1dev> word?
[16:22] <costyn> SpeedEvil: lol
[16:32] <Laurenceb> eroomde: did you know reaction engines are wasting their time?
[16:32] <Laurenceb> http://www.nebula-aerospace.com/ clearly have it all sussed
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[17:28] <griffonbot> Received email: chris hillcox "Re: [UKHAS] STS-2 Launch Announcement"
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[17:49] <griffonbot> Received email: Radim Mutina "Re: [UKHAS] STS-2 Launch Announcement"
[17:53] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] STS-2 Launch Announcement"
[17:59] <griffonbot> Received email: Radim Mutina "Re: [UKHAS] STS-2 Launch Announcement"
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[19:27] <chrisstubbs> Evening all
[19:28] <chrisstubbs> how is progress with tinyGPS Hix?
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[19:29] <fsphil> evening
[19:30] <arko> evening
[19:33] <Hix> hello.. Not had a chance to connect any hardware as yet. But I've been arsing around with code that at least compiles.
[19:33] <arko> http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/15/runbo-x5-x3-x1/
[19:34] <Hix> I really need to get my board done so i have a compact solution I can transport aroind with me as opposed to the breadboard with wires and bits everywhere.
[19:35] <chrisstubbs> Yeah i have bed memories of my breadboard tracker sliding off my dashboard every time i went round a roundabout testing it :P
[19:36] <fsphil> a phone with a built-in 70cm radio
[19:36] <arko> encase it in epoxy
[19:36] <Hix> Mitch has challenged nme tol get it 50x50 or less so I can whack it in something pretty easily, should be ok
[19:36] <fsphil> that's kinda cool and nerdy
[19:36] <arko> seroiusly cool
[19:36] <arko> yeah
[19:36] <arko> perfect for habs
[19:36] <fsphil> I wonder if the onboard software has access to it
[19:36] <fsphil> it's bound to
[19:36] <arko> im sure they will supply an api
[19:36] <fsphil> we could sent packet through it
[19:36] <Hix> I was thinking along lines of potting compound for ToughTracker
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[19:39] <chrisstubbs> would be nice to have it so rugged you can just drop it without a parachute
[19:39] <Hix> Unix Eagle would be helpful
[19:39] <chrisstubbs> hope it dosent fall on anything too expensive though
[19:40] <Hix> Think thats a bit of a no-no after west london....
[19:41] <chrisstubbs> what happened there?
[19:41] <Hix> oh wow there is a linux dist for it. Chrisstubbs, someonme launched a pico with no chute and it came down in london
[19:41] <Hix> to be fair I've always seen it as a no-no
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[19:44] <chrisstubbs> Yeah makes sense!
[19:46] <Hix> afk
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[19:51] <Upu> evening jcoxon
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[19:51] <jcoxon> hey up??
[19:51] <jcoxon> oops
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[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> hallo
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> *hello
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[21:48] <Gadget-Mac> Throwing a question into the mix, has anyone ever flown a gieger counter ?
[21:48] <Randomskk> yes
[21:50] <Gadget-Mac> Any idea what the data was like ?
[21:51] <Randomskk> I think jonsowman has graphs. basically radiation went up with altitude
[21:51] <meatmanek> probably increasing with an exponential decay towards some maximum value as you approach space
[21:52] <jonsowman> sec
[21:52] <jonsowman> http://www.hexoc.com/pages/apex/apex-ii/launch-2-data.php
[21:52] <jonsowman> the one labelled IRD Counts
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> and this one Gadget-Mac http://mightyohm.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3333
[21:52] <jonsowman> they broke at some altitude and recovered that
[21:52] <Gadget-Mac> Cool, thanks guys
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[21:59] <mattbrejza> jonsowman: i see noones been bothered to make better graphs yet :P
[21:59] <jonsowman> haha
[21:59] <jonsowman> correct
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> i suspect their radiation curve might be correct
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> as you are passing more of the atmosphere up there
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> but its all weird and non linear with multiple scattering events
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[22:22] <NickB1> http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5038/radiationfalcon05052015.jpg
[22:23] <NickB1> was a mightyohm geiger counter
[22:23] <NickB1> did cut out above 20km
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> hey NickB1 !
[22:26] <NickB1> evening Lunar
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> how are you today?
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[23:20] <mrShrimp> Hi everyone! I heard a while back (perhaps it was on this chat) that when building a quarter wave ground plane antenna it doesn't make a crucial difference if the radials are at 90 degrees instead of 45 degrees. I want to hear a second opinion, because I keep hearing that the downwards angle of the radials does affect the antenna impedance quite a bit (as shown here: http://www.comportco.com/~w5alt/antennas/notes/ant-notes.p
[23:21] <Randomskk> so
[23:21] <Randomskk> the angle of the radials to the driven element does affect the impedance a lot
[23:21] <Randomskk> to get a 50 ohm match you want the radials to be 135 degrees away from the driven element (so the whole thing, cable first, looks a bit like ====>-)
[23:21] <Randomskk> but
[23:21] <Randomskk> the impedance won't make much difference to your radio system
[23:21] <Randomskk> and frankly it'l work just fine at 90 degrees.
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[23:29] <mrShrimp> Ok, thanks. It will fit more easily into the payload with 90 degree angles, and as long as it works well enough it is good enough for me. I am just worried that the impedance mismatch will affect the transmitter. I suppose I could try and tilt the radials as much as I can while still fitting the other components in the box.
[23:29] <mrShrimp> Or I could just put the antenna outside of the payload
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[23:31] <Randomskk> some people put the antenna outside
[23:31] <Randomskk> I've launched many payloads with the radials at 90 degrees that all worked fine
[23:32] <Randomskk> I've also launched many with them at 135 degrees and that was good too
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[23:35] <mrShrimp> Did either cause a noticable difference?
[23:37] <Randomskk> not really, no
[23:39] <mrShrimp> Ok, I guess it's 90 degrees for me then. Thanks again!
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[00:00] --- Thu Jan 17 2013