highaltitude.log.20130112

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[00:48] <Laurenceb_> anyone here used povray?
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[00:52] <Maxell> Hmm, uh-oh. http://i.imgur.com/2ht1o.png
[00:52] <Maxell> Somehow this stick spreads it out?
[00:52] <Maxell> I'm not sure whats going on.
[00:52] <Maxell> oh derp, let me try my other antenna
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[00:53] <Maxell> Nope, still the same problem.
[00:53] <Darkside> what problem?
[00:54] <Darkside> the 'spreading' on the watefall display is notmal
[00:54] <Darkside> you just don't have the shift quite right
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[00:55] <Maxell> shoulnt those red lines go trough the yellow signal stripes
[00:55] <Darkside> you have the shift slightly off
[00:55] <Darkside> it means the resistor values you used on the NTX2 are slightly out of spec
[00:55] <Darkside> which is fine
[00:55] <Darkside> you can set the shift manually in dl-fldigi
[00:56] <Darkside> configure -> Modems -> RTTY and set the carrier shift to custom
[00:56] <Darkside> then modify it until it's right
[00:56] <Maxell> Darkside: ok, so the test payload just dies
[00:56] <Maxell> died
[00:56] <Maxell> it has been working before just fine
[00:57] <Maxell> Few weeks ago https://revspace.nl/images/6/67/Finaltestonpi.png
[00:58] <Maxell> Oh, let me try the other dvbt-stick.
[01:00] <Spoz> hey Darkside
[01:00] <Darkside> oh hey Spoz
[01:00] <Darkside> did you end up ordering that alinco?
[01:00] <Spoz> yeah it will be here on monday
[01:00] <Darkside> awesome
[01:00] <Spoz> Im pretty excited to get it :) cant wait to use it for other stuff too
[01:00] <Darkside> it should work well
[01:00] <Darkside> yeah
[01:01] <Spoz> yeah it looks like it
[01:01] <Darkside> now you just need to get a NTX2 :-)
[01:01] <Spoz> Id love to get into amateur radio when I find myself with some free time
[01:01] <Spoz> I ordered one of those too
[01:01] <Spoz> will also be here on monday
[01:01] <Darkside> from RFMA?
[01:01] <Spoz> yeah
[01:01] <Darkside> cool
[01:01] <Darkside> yeah, maurice is a bit of a douche, but his shipping is fast
[01:01] <Spoz> oh theyre in tas hey
[01:01] <Darkside> yep, launceston
[01:01] <Spoz> crap it might not get here till tues or weds then
[01:02] <Spoz> if they send regular post
[01:02] <Darkside> he usually uses express
[01:02] <Spoz> yeah actually he did say overnight to qld
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[01:02] <Spoz> anyway in the meantime I need to revise my code for habitat format
[01:02] <Spoz> ukhas format*
[01:02] <Darkside> yeah
[01:03] <Spoz> you suggest parsing it on the arduino?
[01:03] <Darkside> well, i just use TinyGPS
[01:03] <Spoz> oh ok
[01:03] <Spoz> and its been reliable?
[01:03] <Darkside> though the version of tinygps i use has mods to handle the Ublox PUBX string
[01:03] <Darkside> yeah
[01:04] <Spoz> Im reading the ublox manual now
[01:04] <Spoz> my arduino code currently filters out all the sentences I dont want
[01:04] <Darkside> there's a bunch of code on the wiki to do this too
[01:04] <Spoz> the mediatek one has a stupid pmtk packet you cant turn off
[01:04] <Darkside> Spoz: PM me your email
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[01:12] <Maxell> Darkside: Ah, I see now. dl-fldigi was somehow set to 425 shift, not 450. That fixed it.
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[01:32] <Spoz> By the way, I couldn't find a 434mhz dipole on short notice. Since I don't have a lot of time I'm going to borrow a 434mhz yagi from a friend instead
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[01:42] <Maxell> Hmm, dl-fldigi tells me there is an update. When I check the PPA, it tells me "dl-fldigi is already the newest version."
[01:44] <Darkside> Spoz: bit hard to use a yagi in a moving car
[01:44] <Darkside> but it'll work well when stationary
[01:44] <Spoz> I'll see how I go for time, building one wouldnt take too long but tuning it will be a few hours
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[01:49] <craag> If this is for rx, it doesn't need to be tuned exactly.
[01:50] <Darkside> Spoz: the yagi will be fine for when yo're stationary
[01:51] <Darkside> for moving, i'd use a magbase anenna
[01:51] <mfa298> Spoz: I think i saw in the scrollback you were looking at a handheld reciever, if so you might find its not as sensitive as som larger recievers
[01:51] <Darkside> mfa298: the one he's bought will be fine
[01:52] <Darkside> i've got a friend with one, they're plenty sensitive enough
[01:52] <Spoz> mm
[01:52] <Spoz> Id still like to think our digital modems will work fine
[01:53] <Spoz> based on tests they are promising
[01:53] <mfa298> ive got a kenwood hand that does multimode recieve and its no where as good as an 817/ts2000
[01:53] <mfa298> it works well enough just not as good as some things
[01:54] <Spoz> you could say that about anything :P
[01:54] <Spoz> half of my decision to buy a handheld was that I can use it for other things
[01:54] <mfa298> mines mostly a handy transciever so the multi mode rx might be more of an afterthought
[01:56] <mfa298> i'm tempted to try a habamp on the front of my hany as that could make it a really nice setup
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[02:59] <Spoz> anyone know how to get tinygps to work? I've got my gpgga string in a character array, and I use a for loop to encode each character to tinygps, then I send it a '\r' and a '\n' and it never returns true
[02:59] <nigelvh> I believe tinygps requires two GPS strings, The GPGGA and one other (I don't recall offhand.)
[02:59] <Spoz> oh the rmc too
[03:00] <nigelvh> Yeah, till you get both it won't work.
[03:00] <Spoz> damn it
[03:02] <KT5TK_QRL> $GPRMC is usually needed as well
[03:03] <Spoz> thanks guys, I never would have found that from the documentation
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[03:18] <Spoz> hooray!
[03:24] <nigelvh> Got it working?
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[03:25] <Spoz> kinda, I did for a bit
[03:26] <Spoz> im trying to output two different packet types at the same time which is complicating things
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[03:27] <nigelvh> APRS packets? or GPS data?
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[03:27] <Spoz> well, the story is that I built a standalone tracker using digital modems and a packet that I just invented
[03:27] <Spoz> and now Im trying to add an analog transmitter to it, outputting UKHAS packets
[03:27] <Spoz> while keeping my existing one in place
[03:27] <Spoz> because the website that interprets it is already tehre
[03:28] <nigelvh> I see, All things considered, RTTY is pretty easy.
[03:28] <Spoz> yeah
[03:28] <Spoz> its just that I didnt do any nmea parsing on my computer before
[03:28] <Spoz> so I need to add that functionality without breaking the original code
[03:28] <nigelvh> Yes, that will be needed.
[03:28] <nigelvh> At least to use transmit time efficiently.
[03:29] <Spoz> yeah
[03:29] <Spoz> and the launch is in a week! eep!
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[03:32] <nigelvh> Wouldn't be the first time I'd been doing code changes a week before.
[03:32] <Spoz> hehe
[03:32] <Spoz> its just never that easy
[03:33] <Spoz> for example, right now Ive got this problem where Im writing the nmea sentence into a character array
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[03:33] <Spoz> and every 3 or 4 times, it fails to overwrite the last character of the identifier... eg, last sentence was gpgga, next sentence ends up in the array as gprma instead of gprmc
[03:33] <Spoz> and it only seems to be that fifth character that has the problem
[03:34] <Spoz> no idea where to even begin on that one
[03:34] <Spoz> it feels like everything I do runs into a problem like this
[03:35] <nigelvh> Couple thoughts. 1. Why are you writing the GPS data to an array. Just feed the data straight into tinygps and use the variables it gives to feed everything. 2. Run a loop to overwrite the array with nulls before reading a new sentence.
[03:35] <Spoz> good idea about the nulls
[03:35] <Spoz> to answer 1. it's because my original code just takes the array and outputs it to the serial modem, no processing or anything
[03:35] <Spoz> and I want to retain that
[03:37] <nigelvh> That's your choice, but I always recommend minimizing the "junk" needed to be sent. Sending entire GPS sentences if you don't really need to is a waste and gives more stuff to accumulate errors in transmission.
[03:37] <Spoz> I agree but if I change that aspect of my flight computer code then I have to re-code everything from my python script to my website
[03:37] <Spoz> and I really dont want to/dont have time to do that
[03:37] <nigelvh> That's a reasonable issue.
[03:38] <Spoz> the digital modems have built in error detection and correction
[03:38] <Spoz> so I wasnt too worried about sending 20% more data than I had to
[03:38] <nigelvh> How fast are the digital modems transmitting.
[03:38] <nigelvh> ?
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[03:39] <Spoz> 26 kbaud
[03:39] <nigelvh> You're going to want to slow that WAAAY down.
[03:39] <nigelvh> To get anything near that speed you need HUGE signal to noise ratios
[03:39] <Spoz> yeah well thats easy enough
[03:39] <nigelvh> If you can, drop to like 1200 baud.
[03:40] <Spoz> the guy who built the modem reckons there's very little improvement going below 26
[03:40] <Spoz> I didnt really get into why that is but I can ask him on monday
[03:41] <nigelvh> There may be inherent parts of these modems that slower won't help, but it's simply physics that to stuff more data in, you need better signal to noise ratios.
[03:41] <Spoz> I can slow it to 4kbit/s
[03:41] <nigelvh> That would certainly be better.
[03:44] <nigelvh> Anyway, I'm headed off to dinner. Good luck with your programming!
[03:44] <Spoz> thanks, catch you later
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[03:52] <arko> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/isnt-petition-response-youre-looking
[03:52] <arko> hahahahahahaha
[03:52] <arko> i love this
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[08:04] <arko> man it's cold outside
[08:04] <Spoz> not here
[08:06] <SpeedEvil> 2.5 outside
[08:06] <arko> 0 where i am
[08:06] <arko> it's like never 0
[08:06] <arko> this aint some winter town!
[08:07] <Spoz> its 27C in my room right now and I am legitimately cool
[08:07] <Spoz> thats 27 with the a/c on
[08:07] <arko> austria?
[08:07] <Spoz> australia
[08:07] <arko> australia?
[08:07] <arko> ah
[08:07] <arko> dude
[08:07] <arko> wtf happen to your weather?
[08:07] <Spoz> it was 37C near here today
[08:07] <arko> 40C the other day?
[08:07] <arko> damn dude
[08:07] <Spoz> yeah weve had a few of those already this year
[08:07] <arko> you guys have spiders and that kinda weather?
[08:08] <Spoz> we broke our national average maximum temp
[08:08] <arko> snap
[08:08] <Spoz> the highest temp recorded was 52C somewhere
[08:08] <arko> O_O
[08:11] <Upu> tell you what just give us 25' and we'll call it quits
[08:11] <Spoz> would happily pipe some heat up north
[08:12] <Upu> we need it
[08:12] <Spoz> I cant believe Im actually feeling cool when I look at the temp and see 27/28
[08:12] <Spoz> Ive lived in aus for too long
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[08:13] <arko> crazy kids
[08:13] <arko> california is perfect
[08:13] <arko> we are like 18-20C all the time
[08:13] <arko> err more like 16-18
[08:14] <arko> hmm
[08:14] <arko> more like 18-20 now that i think about it, i forgot the summers
[08:15] <arko> make clean
[08:15] <arko> ah balls
[08:16] <arko> wrong window
[08:16] <Spoz> 16 is cold
[08:16] <Spoz> I put a jumper on at 21/22
[08:20] <x-f> 16 is cold? we're at -15 this morning!
[08:21] <Spoz> where I live, it usually goes below 10C only a few times a year
[08:22] <Spoz> to see 0 is extremely rare
[08:22] <x-f> where in Australia are you?
[08:22] <Spoz> brisbane
[08:23] <Spoz> it is usually pretty good but the last few years have been warm
[08:23] <Spoz> this summer is one of the hottest Ive seen
[08:25] <x-f> +50 is hot indeed
[08:25] <Darkside> brisbane has humidity too
[08:25] <Spoz> we dont get that here, that's out west
[08:25] <x-f> we had extreme heat in last summer, but it was only +35 :)
[08:25] <Spoz> hottest Ive seen here is about 42 or 43
[08:25] <Spoz> 35 is still hot but we seem to have a lot of 35 days now
[08:26] <Spoz> the humidity is the worst, Ive been to the tropics and its less humid than brisbane
[08:26] <Spoz> I'll take the weather in cairns over what we have here
[08:26] <Spoz> but darkside can keep adelaide weather
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[08:26] <Spoz> thats too dry :)
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[09:01] <jcoxon> morning all
[09:04] <Spoz> hi
[09:04] <number10> morning jcoxon
[09:06] <eroomde> arko: lol at 'I want all LEMO products ever'
[09:07] <arko> :)
[09:07] <arko> wow it's not just me
[09:07] <arko> http://habhub.org/predict/
[09:07] <arko> i was coding things up and thought i broke something
[09:07] <arko> then i checked habhub
[09:07] <arko> throws the same error
[09:08] <arko> eroomde: some of their connectors are works of art
[09:09] <eroomde> yes they are
[09:09] <eroomde> i do like them
[09:09] <eroomde> get their little colour bands you can put around the loose end
[09:09] <eroomde> then when getting custom cnc front panels, put a corresponding engraved and filled colour band around the panel connector
[09:09] <eroomde> you go up one level
[09:10] <arko> yeah
[09:11] <eroomde> the price of their K series up to 6 connectors is actually not too bad
[09:11] <eroomde> it goes exponentail after that
[09:11] <eroomde> but it's approximately comparable up to that
[09:11] <arko> yeah, gets crazy expensive very quickly
[09:11] <eroomde> i want to use them on a flight liquid rocket engine for the Kulite pressure sensors
[09:12] <eroomde> we had some stock which we are using on gyroc, and they are also outrageously nice pressure sensors
[09:12] <eroomde> absolutely tiny
[09:12] <eroomde> and again made of solid money
[09:12] <arko> lol
[09:12] <arko> truth
[09:13] <eroomde> http://www.kulite.com/docs/products/xtl-123b.c.pdf
[09:14] <arko> wow
[09:14] <arko> wonder how much that costs
[09:15] <eroomde> being automotive they might actually be a bit more affordable, those ones
[09:15] <arko> what pressure are you checking exactly?
[09:16] <eroomde> all sorts in the rocket
[09:16] <eroomde> so injector pressures, chamber pressures
[09:16] <arko> chamber pressure?
[09:17] <arko> it can live through that heat?
[09:17] <arko> and pressure?
[09:17] <eroomde> you can do mass flow by having orrofice plates of a very specific geometry and measureing the absolute upstream pressure and the deltaP across the orifice plate
[09:17] <arko> oh
[09:17] <eroomde> but it's hard to find a differential pressure sensor with such a high common mode pressure so you often use a pair of cross calibrated absolute sensors
[09:17] <arko> that makes sense
[09:17] <eroomde> yeah they can take the pressure and temp ok
[09:18] <arko> wait
[09:18] <eroomde> chamber pressures not not bonkers usually, eg our one yesterday was 50bar
[09:18] <arko> direct exposure to the chamber?
[09:18] <arko> i expect temperatures to be above 200C
[09:18] <eroomde> no you have a short length of tubing usually which alls the gases to cool
[09:19] <eroomde> the tube fills with cooler gas (v slow moving as it's sort of a dead end) and it then just transfers the chamber pressure
[09:19] <arko> brilliant
[09:19] <eroomde> if youi go bit on this photo on the left and zoon right in on the left, you might see a pressure sensor on the end of a bit of stainless tube
[09:19] <eroomde> sticking up above the nozzle
[09:19] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/8371635016/in/photostream/lightbox/
[09:20] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/5Ei1Z.jpg direct link to big
[09:20] <arko> oh wow
[09:20] <arko> not a very long tube
[09:20] <eroomde> nope
[09:20] <eroomde> don't need much
[09:21] <eroomde> it cools v quickly, and as i say it's not like the super energetic gases are rushing into it
[09:21] <arko> is that stable?
[09:21] <arko> in that it could operate continously?
[09:21] <eroomde> it fills initially with high pressure gas but that quickly cools out of the tube walls and then you just get this buffer of cooler gas
[09:21] <eroomde> yep can operate continuously
[09:21] <arko> ah got
[09:21] <eroomde> however, you don;t want to go made because a long thin tube acts analogously to an RC filter
[09:22] <eroomde> mad*
[09:22] Action: arko adds this to the new things learned today list
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[09:22] <arko> the thin tube has "capacitance"?
[09:22] <eroomde> yeah
[09:23] <eroomde> it's a big empty vessel
[09:23] <eroomde> it's completely a non issue with a setup like that
[09:23] <eroomde> but like you wouldn't want 4meters of 1mm tube
[09:23] <eroomde> http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/images_news/news_july2011/hot-fire-2_800.jpg
[09:23] <eroomde> different engine in the same rig a few years ago
[09:24] <eroomde> you can see all the silicon tubes comming off the pressure taps on the nozzle
[09:24] <arko> hmm
[09:24] <eroomde> that shows you how cool the gases are that it works
[09:24] <arko> wow yeah
[09:24] <eroomde> but that was more of a consideration because they were about 1m long to get back to the multichannel pressure sensor (32 channels)
[09:26] <eroomde> sorry, the RC effect being a consieration
[09:26] <arko> neat
[09:27] <arko> do you get resonation if the tube length is correct (in the bad way)?
[09:27] <griffonbot> Received email: Trevor Cousins "[UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
[09:27] <eroomde> yes i'm sure it's possible
[09:27] <arko> or is it just at start
[09:27] <eroomde> but i suspect well above what we're interested in looking at and our sample rates
[09:27] <eroomde> the engines themselves can be instable and resonate
[09:27] <arko> mm
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[09:28] <arko> thats some neat stuff
[09:28] <arko> i need to get sleep
[09:28] <arko> ugg
[09:29] <arko> i've been up for 22 hours >_>
[09:29] <arko> time to head home
[09:29] <arko> thanks for the 101 eroomde :P
[09:29] <eroomde> np
[09:29] <eroomde> but first
[09:30] <eroomde> http://youtu.be/Sk5S5Q3M4Ek?t=5m50s
[09:30] <eroomde> if you want to see resonance!
[09:30] <eroomde> listen to it at startup
[09:30] <eroomde> it sounds more like a foghorn that a rocket engine
[09:30] <arko> woah
[09:30] <eroomde> not to dis what copenhagen are doing, i have a lot of respect for them
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[09:31] <eroomde> but their absility to do metal fabrication slightly exceeds to ability at rocket science, so they end up learning stuff in quite a spectacular way
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[09:31] <arko> holy shit
[09:31] <arko> that was awesome
[09:31] <eroomde> that was scary
[09:31] <arko> the beginning
[09:31] <arko> yeah
[09:31] <eroomde> rocket engines are not meant to sound like that :)
[09:31] <arko> wouldnt want to ride that
[09:32] <eroomde> it probably used half its fatigue life up
[09:32] <arko> :/ yikes
[09:32] <arko> yeah copenhagen people are awesome
[09:32] <eroomde> but yes, you can get perverse resonances
[09:32] <eroomde> there's also the pogo effect where the whole rocket system starts to resonate
[09:33] <eroomde> that's super bad
[09:33] <arko> hmmm
[09:34] <arko> sounded like the frequency was like sub 18000Hz
[09:34] <arko> since you could hear it
[09:34] <eroomde> yep
[09:34] <arko> is that a harmonic of a disturbance occuring at a higher freq?
[09:34] <eroomde> nope i suspect that's the funamental
[09:34] <arko> damn
[09:34] <eroomde> they probably have lower injector pressure than they were expecting
[09:35] <eroomde> and so you squirt some fuel in, it pops then goes out
[09:35] <arko> i wish these guys did weekly video updates about things like that
[09:35] <eroomde> but the chamber pressure increases during the pop which puts a higher pressure back against the injectors
[09:35] <arko> ohhhh
[09:35] <eroomde> so they lower their rate, then icrease it again as the pop subsisdes
[09:35] <arko> and it can compensate for that fast enough ay?
[09:35] <eroomde> then it couples together in that way to resonate
[09:35] <arko> ohh
[09:36] <eroomde> yeah. the solution is usually MOAR pressure
[09:36] <arko> bad times
[09:36] <eroomde> just forces the whole system up out of that resonant area
[09:36] <arko> yeah
[09:36] <eroomde> we *might* get down that far with this little engine
[09:36] <arko> makes sense
[09:36] <eroomde> see if we cna induce resonation
[09:36] <arko> good thing to test for
[09:36] <eroomde> good to see if we can rebuild it in models
[09:37] <arko> ohhh
[09:37] <arko> thats the kinda stuff i like
[09:37] <arko> seeing models proven by tests
[09:37] <arko> :P
[09:37] <jonsowman> yes thats bad
[09:38] <arko> resonance is bad... mkay
[09:38] <arko> mmmkay
[09:39] <eroomde> sure is
[09:39] <arko> ok
[09:39] <arko> drive then sleep time
[09:39] <arko> night yall!
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[09:41] <eroomde> see ya
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[09:41] <eroomde> morning domlin
[09:41] <domlin> good morning eroomde :)
[09:41] <domlin> how are you?
[09:45] <eroomde> hi domlin
[09:45] <eroomde> i'm very very well thanks
[09:46] <eroomde> enjoying a lazy breakfast
[09:46] <domlin> a lazy one?
[09:46] <eroomde> had a great day yesterday at work, did some rocket testing and then had a go at astrophotography
[09:46] <eroomde> a lazy one yep - i fully intend to still be drinking coffee in my dressing gown at 11
[09:47] <domlin> haha, sounds good to me!
[09:47] <eroomde> i had a go at photographing the plume of our rocket which usually doesn't work - it just whites out
[09:47] <domlin> i wasn't expecting to be awake until about 12 however i had to move my car :(
[09:47] <domlin> and ah, did you have any luck?
[09:47] <eroomde> but i had a play with the exposure settings and used a polarising filter and a UV filter to try and cut out some of the crap from the plume
[09:47] <eroomde> got a nice capture in the end!
[09:48] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/5Ei1Z.jpg
[09:48] <domlin> wow!
[09:48] <eroomde> big file
[09:48] <domlin> that's fantastic
[09:48] <Spoz> nice photo!
[09:49] <Darkside> prettyyyy
[09:49] <eroomde> then had a go with my bosses telescope and the slr adaptor his gf got him for christmas
[09:49] <eroomde> I present, Io, Jupiter, Europa and Ganymede:
[09:49] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/F0Rce.jpg
[09:50] <domlin> :o
[09:50] <Darkside> awww man
[09:50] <Darkside> nice
[09:51] <eroomde> it was a bit of a happy nerding day yesterday
[09:51] <eroomde> we had 6 successfil test fires all at different parameters we wanted to test
[09:51] <eroomde> then some astronomy
[09:51] <eroomde> and got a curry and some beers delivered to power it all
[09:51] <domlin> eroomde: have you ever considered putting some chemicals in the path of that rocket plume, get some pretty colours? :P
[09:51] <eroomde> yep!
[09:51] <eroomde> we have done in the past
[09:52] <eroomde> things like H2 + O2 don't really emit much in visible light
[09:52] <eroomde> so we've added salt water which gives a nice sodium-ey yellow colour
[09:52] <eroomde> helps visualise the flow
[09:52] <domlin> aha wow :)
[09:52] <domlin> what sort of rockets do you work with?
[09:52] <eroomde> and if you see green then you know something is wrong
[09:52] <eroomde> because copper is meant to be a part of the engine, not a part of the fuel
[09:53] <eroomde> we work with all sorts, but almost all liquid bipropellents
[09:53] <eroomde> we're working on the Sabre engines for Skylon
[09:53] <eroomde> which are air breathing, hydrogen-fueled rocket engines
[09:54] <domlin> oh wow
[09:54] <eroomde> but we also research for various projects. the engine in that photo is testing proellent combinations that you could synthesize on mars
[09:54] <eroomde> the idea being for a sample return mission, where you land a little chem lab which spends a year making fuel to fill the tanks in a rocket
[09:55] <eroomde> and then launch the rocket from the surface of mars back to earth
[09:55] <eroomde> maybe via a rendevous with an orbitewr
[09:55] <domlin> :|
[09:55] <domlin> thats crazy stuff
[09:55] <domlin> i like the sound of your work :P
[09:55] <eroomde> so for example in that photo we're trying carbon monoxide and oxygen
[09:57] <domlin> and it was a successful test?
[09:58] <eroomde> yep very
[09:58] <eroomde> performed exactly on the money
[09:58] <domlin> very nice :)
[09:58] <domlin> going to be any CCD's on Skylon?
[09:59] <eroomde> CCDs?
[09:59] <eroomde> as in image sensors?
[09:59] <domlin> yeah
[09:59] <eroomde> i imagine so
[10:00] <eroomde> bit early for that level of detail though :)
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[10:00] <domlin> aha, just wondered because that's one of the things the company i work for does :)
[10:00] <eroomde> i send the jupiter picture to my dad (the camera was a present from him)
[10:01] <eroomde> 'i couldn't find the moons at first, but after trying to wipe some specs from my creen i realised i had'
[10:01] <eroomde> screen*
[10:01] <domlin> haha
[10:01] <eroomde> domlin: where do you work?
[10:01] <domlin> e2v
[10:01] <eroomde> oh wow
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[10:02] <eroomde> i have certainly heard of them
[10:02] <eroomde> THE space image sensor people
[10:02] <domlin> ha :p
[10:02] <eroomde> i would dearly love to build a space telescope
[10:03] <domlin> sounds expensive
[10:04] <eroomde> mmm
[10:04] <eroomde> well, a HAB nearspace telescope has been talked about
[10:04] <domlin> I had an idea the other day, which is essentially the opposite to HAB
[10:04] <domlin> I wondered if there had been much "deep" sea explorers made?
[10:05] <domlin> many*
[10:05] <eroomde> some guys at my uni did a project looking at that
[10:06] <eroomde> there is also a tiresome apprentice-like person who once did a hab (or got other people to do it for him before writing blog posts about the magnitude of his achievement) who is now ranting on about the mariana trencth or something
[10:07] <domlin> oh
[10:08] <daveake> Gawd I'd forgotten about him
[10:08] <domlin> just something that interested me
[10:08] <Darkside> oh dear
[10:08] <Darkside> josh?
[10:08] <eroomde> daveake: yes it's better that way
[10:08] <eroomde> yes let's not mention his name
[10:08] <daveake> Yup
[10:08] <domlin> however trying to take pictures down there could be hideously difficult :P
[10:09] <eroomde> and getting it back again
[10:09] <domlin> well I was initially thinking of having it tethered
[10:09] <domlin> then i realised that my budget would be spent on rope.
[10:09] <eroomde> :)
[10:10] <domlin> I also had an idea of a timed system to release the contents of a compressed canister of gas
[10:10] <eroomde> so in the past they made something that was filled with keroscene, or something else like that that is less dense that water
[10:10] <eroomde> and then had iron weights attached to the main vehicle with electromagnets
[10:10] <eroomde> so the iron weights made the whole thing negatively bouyant and down it went
[10:10] <domlin> aha very clever
[10:11] <eroomde> once it got to the bottom and wanted to come back up, it turned off the electromagnets
[10:11] <eroomde> and floated back up
[10:11] <eroomde> also if you got a compplete power failure or something, it failsafe's to the surface
[10:11] <domlin> very true, i like that idea
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[10:17] <daveake> Hah - https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/isnt-petition-response-youre-looking
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[10:25] <SpeedEvil> sigh
[10:25] <Spoz> so do you think I will have a problem transmitting on 434MHz (25mW), 915-928MHz (1W) and 1300MHz (1W) simultaneously?
[10:25] <Darkside> nah
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> trivial petitions tend towards supporting arguments that the process is pointless and should be ended
[10:25] <Darkside> well
[10:25] <Darkside> antenna placement on the payload is going to be fun
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> Spoz: not with appropriate antenna mixers
[10:25] <eroomde> indeed
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> oh.
[10:26] <SpeedEvil> not one antenna
[10:26] <Darkside> SpeedEvil: not on one antenna
[10:26] <eroomde> if you can put them on a large baseline, that will help
[10:26] <eroomde> eg maybe 1m apart for each of them
[10:26] <Spoz> I was thinking having the 915 and 1300 antennas (both cloverleaf/skew planar domes) at opposite ends underneath (about 200mm separation) and the 434MHz just one of those cross antennas on top of the payload
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[10:27] <Darkside> making a cross-dipole on 434mhz is a pain
[10:27] <Spoz> I forget what theyre called
[10:27] <Darkside> i'd suggest using something simple
[10:27] <Spoz> like what? just a hanging wire?
[10:27] <Darkside> you could make a ribbon-cable slim-jim which you can attach to the line above th epayload
[10:27] <Spoz> ah ok
[10:27] <Darkside> we usually use 1/4 wave monopoles over a wire ground plane
[10:27] <Darkside> but you may not be able to fit that in
[10:28] <Spoz> probably not
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[10:28] <Darkside> Spoz: http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2012-10-07_Horus_29/Pages/26.html
[10:29] <Darkside> the main element is only 16cm long
[10:29] <Spoz> yeah
[10:29] <Darkside> you may be able to fit something somewhere
[10:30] <Spoz> our payload is under 300x300x200
[10:30] <Spoz> its already squished
[10:30] <Spoz> I like the ribbon cable idea
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[10:31] <Darkside> tuning it can be a pain
[10:31] <Darkside> thats hy a 1/4 wave monopole is so nice
[10:31] <Darkside> you cut it to about the right length and it's good enough
[10:32] <Darkside> the ribbon cable antennas are a lot more fiddly
[10:32] <Darkside> also they will radiate more outwards - not downwards
[10:32] Action: eroomde really wants a clear night with saturn up to try more photography
[10:33] <eroomde> arko: lemo k series guide with info for vacuum
[10:33] <eroomde> http://www.powell.com/catalog/lemokseries.pdf
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[10:53] <fsphil> awww no Deathstar
[10:54] <Darkside> yeah
[10:54] <fsphil> eroomde: saturn's up in the morning if you're eager
[10:55] <eroomde> indeed, i'm not surei am though
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[10:55] <fsphil> venus through a telescope is neat, the cresent is easy to see
[11:01] <eroomde> this is what i would like to photograph
[11:02] <Spoz> I cant seem to find the details of this alinco x11 antenna connection anywhere... I know it's SMA, and Im assuming its SMA female on the radio to take an SMA male antenna
[11:02] <Spoz> does that sound reasonable
[11:02] <Spoz> it'd be weird for it to be the other way around but Ive never owned a radio with sma
[11:02] <eroomde> that sounds correct
[11:03] <Darkside> it'll be SMA female
[11:03] <eroomde> it used to be easy, the wifi routers messed everything up
[11:03] <Darkside> some chinese radios have a SMA male, but not that one
[11:03] <eroomde> with their gender swapping annoyances
[11:03] <Spoz> ok cool, I just need to buy the BNC adapter before the radio will arrive
[11:03] <Spoz> so that helps
[11:03] <Spoz> yeah rp-sma is the biggest cockup ever
[11:03] <Darkside> but it stops you putting non-ISM band specced antennas on ISM equipment, right?
[11:04] <Spoz> whoever allowed that to happen should be stabbed repeatedly with RPSMA female connectors
[11:04] <Spoz> yes but thats when you design a new connector
[11:04] <Spoz> not screw up everyone who was already happily using sma
[11:04] <Darkside> when you design a new connector you end up with something stupid like RP-TNC or whatever the linksys WRT's used
[11:05] <Spoz> I dont know what an rptnc connector is, and that's a good thing
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[11:09] <Spoz> I guess Im just annoyed that I keep forgetting and have to google-images to find out what I actually want
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[11:44] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[11:44] <Lunar_Lander> yay SKYHAB worked
[11:49] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re : Re: [UKHAS] nice day in Denmark with SKYHAB !"
[11:54] <griffonbot> Received email: MikeB "[UKHAS] Altimeter"
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[12:10] <griffonbot> Received email: Costyn van Dongen "Re: [UKHAS] Altimeter"
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[12:13] <fsphil> that altimeter would be great for a pico
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[12:23] <chrisstubbs> Has anybody made a decent DIY colinear or dipole for 434?
[12:24] <Laurenceb_> anyone here used povray?
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[12:24] <Laurenceb_> i need some help with use of materials
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[12:31] <mfa298> chrisstubbs: there are a few simple designs for dipoles out there.
[12:31] <mfa298> I don't have anything thats written up to hand.
[12:31] <chrisstubbs> Yeah ive been having a look, just wanted to see if there is a tried and tested method!
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[12:33] <mfa298> I use a 2m dipole for HAB tracking as it's a fairly good match for 70cms (434MHz)
[12:34] <mfa298> the dipole is made from a short length of 34mm drain pipe and some threaded rod, using suitable nuts and bolts to fix it.
[12:34] <Darkside> just becayse it's a match doesn't mean it will receive well
[12:34] <Darkside> but you can usually receive HAB flights on a 1/4 wave
[12:34] <Darkside> so meh
[12:35] <mfa298> but it should be easy to change the design for 70cms.
[12:35] <Darkside> sure
[12:35] <Darkside> it's not like making a dipole is particularly hard
[12:35] <mfa298> in this case it's around 3rd harmonic so it should be relativly decent - In my case it's what I had available and it worked.
[12:36] <domlin> does anyone have a little guide for a dipole?
[12:36] <mfa298> I might try and write this one up at some point as it's a relativly cheap and easy design.
[12:36] <Spoz> I found one earlier today called the bazooka dipole
[12:36] <Spoz> looked very easy
[12:37] <mfa298> Darkside: the not being hard to make was the point I was trying to get accross.
[12:37] <Spoz> http://www.hamuniverse.com/vertbazooka.html
[12:37] <Darkside> for RX i'd just use a 1/4 wave monopole
[12:38] <Darkside> easy easier
[12:38] <Darkside> way easier*
[12:39] <mfa298> I suspect a long wire would probably work fairly well as well
[12:39] <Darkside> er
[12:39] <mfa298> and for 70cms long wire isn't that long
[12:39] <Darkside> i'd use a tuned antenna
[12:39] <domlin> that looks good Spoz, do you know what the 7500/frequency is looking for? mhz/hz?
[12:39] <Darkside> like... a 1/4 wave monopole
[12:39] <Darkside> a 16.2cm bit of wire , sticking out from some kind of ground plane
[12:39] <Darkside> be it some more wire radials, or a sheet of metal
[12:39] <Darkside> nothing simpler
[12:40] <mfa298> yep for preference I'd do something tuned as well
[12:41] <domlin> chrisstubbs is currently on the phone to Maplin to find out what the velocity factor of their coax is
[12:42] <domlin> i think they may tell him to go away
[12:43] <mfa298> pretty sure it tells you on the listing for most of their coax
[12:44] <domlin> it didnt but its RG58 so i think its .66
[12:44] <mfa298> probably around .6 to .7
[12:44] <Darkside> .66 is normal
[12:44] <mfa298> .66 is what id use with no other number to use
[12:45] <Hix> anyone got any ideas as to why my RTTY sounds so ill today? http://widerimage.co.uk/docs/SickRTTY.wma
[12:45] <mfa298> although i wonder if rg58 is rigid enough.
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[12:46] <mfa298> also you don't want particularly long lengths of it as its quite lossy at 70cms (a few metres is ok)
[12:46] <domlin> thats exactly what we just thought :( non solid core
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[12:49] <fsphil> hmm.. I can't play .wma files
[12:49] <fsphil> oh I can
[12:49] <fsphil> Hix: sounds like your toggling the EN pin
[12:50] <fsphil> and turning the radio off and on
[12:50] <domlin> brilliant, maplin don't sell RG8U apparently
[12:51] <Spoz> domlin, heres another type with dimensions for 70cm http://www.southgatearc.org/techtips/bazooka.htm
[12:51] <Hix> I soldered a header onto the NTX2 to make it a bit more resilient on the breadboard, could I have screwed it with the heat?
[12:51] <Hix> oops, sorry fsphil didn't see your folllow up
[12:52] <Spoz> and he goes into the calculations here http://www.iw5edi.com/ham-radio/?the-vertical-bazooka-antenna,18
[12:53] <domlin> apparently RG213U is the same as RG8U, but it's still not solid core, is that an issue?
[12:53] <Hix> I'm using Upu code from the wiki on pin 5 - not sure how I could be doing what you described
[12:53] <fsphil> how is the EN pin connected at the moment?
[12:53] <chrisg7ogx> http://www.nevadaradio.co.uk/search/?search=RG213U
[12:53] <fsphil> it's also possible that the shift is so high the other tone is outside the bandpass of your radio
[12:55] <domlin> okay got a bit to think about now, will pop out and get some rg213 and see what happens
[12:56] <Hix> en to vcc
[12:56] <domlin> thanks Spoz, and chrisg7ogx
[12:57] <mfa298> domlin: Rg213 should be reasonable. just make sure the inner is twisted together.
[12:58] <domlin> okay lovely, thanks mfa298. just phoned maplins again and the woman said it was solid core... we then asked why the website said it had 7 cores at 0.75mm2 each :P
[12:58] <mfa298> the 213 I've got is stranded
[12:59] <domlin> yeah the one we will get will be too
[13:00] <mfa298> the only thing I've got thats solid core is some westflex 103 and that's a pain to do much with.
[13:01] <fsphil> Hix: tune around and check if there's another tone
[13:04] <Hix> seems like there was a duff resistor, changed the three or them and now getting decodes.
[13:04] <fsphil> nice
[13:06] <Hix> thought I'd cooked the NTX2 for a while there. Now to burn bootlaoder onto my atmega so i have a HAB breadboard with no arduino attached
[13:06] <Hix> b.t.w is an ATMega168 enough to runa basic tracker code? 16Kb
[13:07] <Hix> I had one in the box so decided to use it
[13:08] <fsphil> how much ram?
[13:08] <fsphil> 16kb is more than enough flash
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[13:08] <Hix> ok, so it's good for the task
[13:10] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
[13:10] <Hix> why would you switch between ASCII-7 / ASCII-8 and what difference does 1 or 2 stop bits make?
[13:13] <fsphil> if you're only doing text, 7 will save you a teeny bit of space
[13:14] <fsphil> and fldigi's decoder is happier with 2 stop bits
[13:16] <griffonbot> Received email: Geoff Mather "[UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
[13:17] <Hix> so you'd only use 8 bit if you wanted the extended charachters?
[13:17] <fsphil> yea, or where sending binary data like images
[13:18] <Hix> ok. stick to 7 then. :)
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[13:18] <domlin> haha guys I think you'll like this.
[13:18] <domlin> me and chrisstubbs had been testing the payload on the roof of his house, and also testing the 808 camera
[13:18] <domlin> and this happened
[13:18] <domlin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PEZrlYx4gQ
[13:19] <fsphil> you've not had a drop-the-payload-out-the-window moment then? :)
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[13:21] <chrisstubbs> not quite yet! lucky the GPS didnt snap off! will probably build some polystyrene insulation today after we pop to the radio shop
[13:24] <fsphil> good plan :)
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[13:26] <Upu> that why I glue them on these days :)
[13:27] <Upu> but video noted if it comes back faulty :)
[13:27] <fsphil> hah
[13:30] <domlin> lol
[13:30] <domlin> still works dont worry :p
[13:31] <domlin> right off to get some coax and maybe a radio
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[13:46] <eroomde> heh, it's doing the rounds
[13:46] <eroomde> http://www.rocketeers.co.uk/node
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[13:58] <d0wnl0rd> Not sure, whether someone might be interested in our cutdown mechanism tests: http://www.pirnay.com/index.php/en/m-konstruktion/mnu-cutdown-en
[13:58] <d0wnl0rd> Video over here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwjFr2MrUpM
[13:59] <d0wnl0rd> Based on this idea: http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=143 but with easier aquirable materials
[13:59] <Darkside> heh
[13:59] <Darkside> i just use nichrome wire
[14:00] <Darkside> hell of a lot easier
[14:01] <Darkside> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2012-10-07_Horus_29/Pages/19.html
[14:01] <eroomde> i prefer pyros
[14:01] <Darkside> i'm pretty sure aren't allowed to fly pyros here
[14:01] <eroomde> sucks to be you
[14:01] <Darkside> or at least it's legally dubious enough that we don't do it
[14:01] <Darkside> and tbh the nichrome work well enough
[14:02] <Darkside> we haven't had it fail to cutdown yet
[14:02] <Darkside> (mainly because we always run tests before every launh)
[14:03] <d0wnl0rd> Honestly I tried nichrome - it was extremely fragile, so i looked for something foolproof not needing a lot of power
[14:03] <eroomde> that's why i prefer it to
[14:03] <Darkside> depends on the how you rig up the nichrome
[14:03] <eroomde> too
[14:03] <eroomde> i'd be happy to fly it through a thunderstorm
[14:03] <Darkside> yeeeeah
[14:03] <eroomde> where it was covered in ice and being thrown around
[14:03] <Darkside> we generally try to avoid thunderstorms ::P
[14:03] <Darkside> but we are in australila
[14:03] <Darkside> australia*
[14:03] <eroomde> i want to launch something right into one
[14:04] <Darkside> so we don'y have that problem as much
[14:04] <Darkside> hehe
[14:04] <Darkside> that'd be cool
[14:04] <eroomde> my new payload is ip67 by design
[14:04] <eroomde> so i'd be happy to risk it :)
[14:04] <Darkside> anyway, the nichrome setup we use doesn't put any strain on the nichrome wire
[14:04] <Darkside> but still cuts reliably
[14:05] <d0wnl0rd> Care to share your construction?
[14:05] <Darkside> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2012-10-07_Horus_29/Pages/9.html
[14:05] <Darkside> i linked another pic before
[14:05] <Darkside> but you can get the idea from that pic
[14:06] <Darkside> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2012-10-07_Horus_29/Pages/19.html
[14:06] <Darkside> theres the other pic
[14:06] <Darkside> you can see the nichrome wire in that one
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[14:06] <Darkside> uh oh
[14:06] <eroomde> big jpegs in html pages are annoying
[14:06] <eroomde> broswer autoresize doesn't work
[14:06] <Darkside> yeah sorry eroomde
[14:06] <Darkside> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2012-10-07_Horus_29/Images/19.jpg
[14:06] <Darkside> how about that
[14:06] <eroomde> splendid!
[14:07] <Darkside> anyway, the nichrome cuts the string in the middle of that loop
[14:07] <eroomde> that was more a general comment about the internet
[14:07] <Darkside> and the string can pull out either way
[14:07] <d0wnl0rd> So you put up a triangel attaching the nichrome on the base?
[14:07] <Darkside> yeah
[14:07] <Hix> how fatal is connecting vbck to vcc on ublox6?
[14:07] <Darkside> Hix: not at all
[14:07] <Darkside> it needs to be connected to either a power source or ground
[14:07] <Hix> phew :D
[14:08] <Darkside> if you leave it floating weird things can happen
[14:08] <Hix> ok
[14:08] <Darkside> d0wnl0rd: we've flown that arrangement 7 times now
[14:08] <Darkside> and we always do a test on the ground, before every flight, to make sure the whole thing is working end-to-end
[14:09] <d0wnl0rd> Darkside: I'll give it a try as well, but with all test (on ground) w've made with our pyros we had never an issue (and they are waterproof too)
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[14:09] <Darkside> tbh i don't think water is going to have *that* much of an effect on this..
[14:09] <Darkside> the resistance of the water is going to be a hell of a lot higher than the resistance of the nichrome wire
[14:10] <d0wnl0rd> I'll give an update after our next flight (early spring)
[14:10] <Darkside> i think the 'worst' conditions the nichrome has been fired in was -30 degrees, with the payloads travelling at about 300kph
[14:11] <Darkside> 10.5km altitude
[14:12] <d0wnl0rd> Darkside: What's your algorithm to initiate cutdown? I am checking GPS altitude and if lose more than a specific amount of height per second in two consecutive loops I'll fire...
[14:12] <Darkside> we command it from the ground
[14:15] <d0wnl0rd> Who's receiving: HX1 or NTX2?
[14:15] <Darkside> neither
[14:15] <Darkside> RFM22B
[14:16] <d0wnl0rd> So this a secondary device just for reception of the command - cause I#ve been looking at your flight logs and primarily see Radiometrix
[14:17] <Darkside> look for the osiris payload
[14:19] <d0wnl0rd> okay found your code - will investigate later, thx a lot
[14:19] <Darkside> er
[14:19] <Darkside> code?
[14:20] <Darkside> oh it's on google code
[14:20] <Darkside> jeex that's old code
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[14:22] <d0wnl0rd> Anything more recent?
[14:23] <Darkside> nothing online, no
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[14:23] <Darkside> the only difference is some parsing of the received data
[14:23] <Darkside> you can do that yourself
[14:24] <Darkside> also note that uplinking using another RFM22B isn't reliable
[14:24] <domlin-Xperia> Hey guys. Just a quick one, in the radio shop, Yuesa ft817, any good?
[14:24] <Darkside> yes
[14:24] <Darkside> they work nicely
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[14:25] <d0wnl0rd> Okay no problems, let's see whether we are relying on interaction or on algorithms...
[14:26] <Darkside> i prefer to command the cutdown from the ground, but that's just my person preference
[14:26] <Darkside> and i know i can provide enough uplink power to communicate with the payload
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[14:26] <Darkside> in the absolute worst case, i can uplink with about 50W of pwoer
[14:27] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
[14:27] <Darkside> and i have other people on standby that can do a hell of a lot more
[14:27] <d0wnl0rd> As we are no radio amateurs, our mileage may vary...
[14:27] <Darkside> yeah
[14:27] <Darkside> you won't be able to reliably uplink
[14:27] <craag> Can you link the google code for rfm rx? I'm very interested in taking a look.
[14:27] <Darkside> craag: the code on there isn't that good
[14:27] <Darkside> it's very very old
[14:28] <Darkside> hmm hand on, there is a newer but of code in there
[14:28] <Darkside> bit*
[14:28] <Darkside> http://code.google.com/p/project-horus/source/browse/trunk/cutdown/Code/OsirisPayload/OsirisPayload.ino
[14:28] <d0wnl0rd> Thts the reason - and we are located in the south-eastern part of germany with winds blowing primarily eastwards. So if we are unlucky (or lucky depends on how you see it) we might end up in slowakia
[14:29] <craag> Darkside: Thanks!
[14:29] <Darkside> craag: you really want at least 500mW of uplink power for it to work reliably
[14:30] <Darkside> or a lot of gain
[14:30] <Darkside> i'm uslly commanding the cutdown while mobile, so we have to go for power over gain
[14:30] <craag> What mode do you use for the uplink with this?
[14:31] <Darkside> i either use a similar board, with a 5W linear amp
[14:31] <Darkside> oh
[14:31] <Darkside> yeah, i modified the RF22 library
[14:31] <Darkside> added a 500 baud GFSK mode
[14:31] <craag> Ah just found that.
[14:31] <Darkside> which is only about 1KHZ wide
[14:31] <chrisg7ogx> ft 817 personally reccomend...http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1184
[14:32] <Darkside> craag: and given that it's only 1KHz wide, i can record and playback packets using a standard SSB transceiver
[14:32] <craag> Is this the system you demo-ed at the conference this year?
[14:32] <Darkside> yes
[14:32] <craag> Darn... haven't got SSB 70cm tx
[14:32] <Darkside> and the sytem we've been flying for a long time now
[14:32] <Darkside> we don't fly without a cutdown anymore
[14:33] <craag> Ok cool, thanks! I'll re-watch your talk.
[14:33] <mfa298> craag: you'll just have to join the ft-817 club
[14:33] <Darkside> nah
[14:33] <Darkside> FT-817 only does 5W :p
[14:33] <craag> mfa298: I've been considering, but really want to save up for a 706mkiig
[14:33] <Darkside> craag: get a IC-7000
[14:34] <Darkside> unless you can get a 706MKIIG for cheap
[14:34] <mfa298> Darkside: but it's easy to add a linear amp to it.
[14:34] <Darkside> mfa298: sure
[14:34] <Darkside> but it's nice to have 50W out of the box
[14:34] <craag> Darkside: I'd love to, they're awesome rigs.
[14:35] <Darkside> also i'm not a big fan of yaesus
[14:35] <craag> Just the old problem of cash.
[14:35] <Darkside> craag: you should be able to get a secondhand 706MKIIG
[14:35] <Darkside> and they are great radios
[14:35] <Darkside> 2 of our chase cars use them for primary telemetry
[14:35] <Darkside> the other car uses a Icom IC-R7000 :P
[14:35] <craag> I'm keeping an eye out, would be great to have HF mobile too!
[14:35] <Darkside> which is a clunker of a radio
[14:36] <craag> Oh wow
[14:36] <craag> yeah
[14:36] <Darkside> works a treat though
[14:36] <Darkside> the most sensitive receiver we have
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[14:36] <Darkside> HF mobile is fun
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[14:37] <Darkside> You can sometimes pick up secondhanc Codan 9350's for a few hundred
[14:37] <Darkside> they are excellent HF mobile antennas
[14:37] <craag> Lol, that would look ridiculous on my corsa.
[14:38] <craag> As would any hf antenna really.
[14:38] <Darkside> haha
[14:38] <Darkside> yep
[14:38] <craag> 2m 5/8 already dwarfs it.
[14:38] <Darkside> heh
[14:39] <craag> Anyway thanks, I'm sure I can borrow a 70cm SSB rig when the time comes.
[14:40] <gonzo_> I used to have an 11ft tank whip on the back of the car. They had a piece of steel cord that kept the sections together. That stuck out of the end when assembled. Made it looks like a bumper car from the fair
[14:40] <gonzo_> ground
[14:40] <domlin-Xperia> What sorta price is good for a ft817?
[14:41] <Hix> am i correct in thinking that I can burn the bootloader onto an ATMega168-20PU using the Uno as ISP? If I choose arduino pro mini 3v3 8MHZ.
[14:41] <Hix> Got the chip on breadboard with 8MHz crystal off 3v3 reg and 2 22pf caps for crystal
[14:42] <gonzo_> depends on condition and the model
[14:42] <gonzo_> for HAB work, there is no benifit in having a later DSP model
[14:43] <domlin-Xperia> Good condition, and I'm not sure about model. This one is 329 but we're gonna get a whip thrown in
[14:43] <domlin-Xperia> Gbp £ that is
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[14:46] <Spoz> Hix if both are 3v3 then it should work
[14:46] <Hix> that's where things are going wrong then. Uno is 5v
[14:47] <Spoz> then I think youd need level converters to be sure
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[14:47] <Hix> or just swith the atmega168-20pu to 5v and 16MHz
[14:47] <Hix> ?
[14:48] <Spoz> looking up the schematic now
[14:49] <Spoz> datasheet*
[14:50] <Spoz> oh, it takes the whole range anyway
[14:50] <Spoz> yeah Id probably run it at 5v for the programming
[14:50] <Darkside> cripes, 1:20am
[14:51] <domlin-Xperia> Will there be much of a difference between just getting a big antenna and using the ezcap SDR, or getting a radio with am antenna?
[14:51] <Hix> I've been using this scheme http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Tutorial/BreadboardAVR.png
[14:51] <domlin-Xperia> An*
[14:51] <Spoz> yeah that will work
[14:51] <Spoz> it will run at 5v like that, just don't power the 3v3 reg youve installed
[14:52] <Darkside> domlin-Xperia: shoudl be similar, using an external radio will reduce CPU load when tracking
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[14:55] <griffonbot> Received email: Trevor Cousins "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
[14:56] <gonzo_> 325 is prob ok for a good condx 817
[14:56] <Upu> yeah just watch buying them with duff battery packs
[14:56] <Upu> as gonzo_ will tell you
[14:56] <gonzo_> hehe yep
[14:57] <gonzo_> mine was duff from new I expect
[14:57] <Upu> you can get a new one for £40 I think
[14:57] <Upu> the radio I got from Tim Zalman lasted 5 mins on batteries
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[14:57] <Upu> mines been fine though
[14:57] <gonzo_> I'd just make one. Have plenty of nicads in the gge
[14:58] <gonzo_> having to select charging through the menu is a pain.
[14:58] <Upu> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Battery-for-YAESU-FT-817-FNB-72-FNB-72x-FNB-72xe-FNB-72xh-9-6V-1500mAh-/390422478267?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones_Communication_Radio_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ae6fe3dbb
[14:58] <Upu> yeah there is a kit with replaces them with LiPos I think and a custom charger
[14:58] <gonzo_> wiyuld be better if chargeded automatically when on 12v
[14:59] <Upu> http://www.w4rt.com/FT-817-Accessories/One-Plug-Power-FT-817.htm
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[15:00] <Upu> I've seen people make a metal frame and run the from a sealed lead acid
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[15:02] <domlin-Xperia> This one doesnt come with a battery pack, does £329 sound like a decent price? Good condition, no damage etc
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[15:08] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
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[15:14] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[15:14] <Lunar_Lander> new video :)! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moK2NHj16_Q
[15:17] <gonzo_> I ordered one of those Li-ion poacks you/dave linked
[15:17] <gonzo_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270983550838
[15:17] <daveake> That was Upu actually :)
[15:18] <fsphil> why it so cold
[15:18] <gonzo_> as I have a padded pouch for the 817 I can put the pack in there np. It was originally for taking your whole car stereo out for security. Predated the ones with a removable front
[15:18] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, ?
[15:19] <gonzo_> rr dave. Will be interesting to try it
[15:19] <fsphil> it so cold Lunar_Lander
[15:20] <gonzo_> for more fixed systems I have a die cast ali box with some lipo's in and a switcher to step up to 11v or 13.8v
[15:20] <fsphil> a big metal box the size of the ft817, full of lipos. that'd last ages
[15:20] <gonzo_> works really well, but is a bit noisy at HF
[15:20] <fsphil> also probably very dangerous
[15:20] <gonzo_> that's pretty much what I have
[15:20] <gonzo_> 20AH at 7.4v
[15:21] <Lunar_Lander> outside you mean?
[15:21] <fsphil> everywhere so cold Lunar_Lander
[15:21] <gonzo_> not charging or draining at anything like a wiorrying rate
[15:21] <gonzo_> and they are in a metal box
[15:21] <Upu> apart from Australia which is far from cold fsphil
[15:22] <fsphil> it's all relative
[15:22] <gonzo_> apptly the explosion risk on lipo's is thay they swell and outgas with flamable gases
[15:22] <fsphil> gonzo_: how long does that run the ft817 for, with typical usage?
[15:23] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[15:23] <mattbrejza> its so hot all the water from that big lake next to sydney evaporated http://i.imgur.com/GBco7.jpg
[15:23] <fsphil> oh at least it'll keep you warm on a cold mountain
[15:23] <Lunar_Lander> I thought you meant the batteries in the freezer
[15:23] <fsphil> lol mattbrejza
[15:23] <fsphil> who puts batteries inaa freezer! that's just mad!
[15:23] <Lunar_Lander> me in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moK2NHj16_Q
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: Mr
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> me
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: I have a whole box of alkalines in there
[15:25] <fsphil> where you live that's probably warmer than outside
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> it's due for -8 tonight
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> it's been basically 8c for most of Dec
[15:26] <fsphil> it's been an oddly warm winter here
[15:26] <fsphil> we had some ice back in november
[15:26] <fsphil> but that's about it
[15:26] <fsphil> a frost a few mornings ago was the first in ages
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> it was waaay too cold a couple of years ago
[15:30] <fsphil> yea I remember that, fun stuff
[15:30] <fsphil> all the lakes here froze solid
[15:30] <fsphil> people where doing stupid things on them
[15:30] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
[15:31] <craag> I'm just putting together a PCB, is it ok to use 0.8mm board with ground plane one side, RF (gps, 434) track on the other?
[15:33] <craag> Ah, just found an impedance calculator.
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[15:41] <griffonbot> Received email: David Akerman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
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[16:43] <Hix> any ideas as to how you clear an avr? i.e is there some pins to conect to wipe the flash?
[16:44] <Hix> I burned the bootloader onto the 168 and uploaded blink on pin5 and now can't program the avr as pin 5 is SCK and its going high every second
[16:44] <Hix> grrrr
[16:46] <fsphil> if you're programming via the ISP, it should reset for you
[16:46] <fsphil> otherwise keep the reset pin low to stop it running
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[16:49] <Hix> im using Uno as ISP but if i keep the reset low, then it doesn't upload the new sketch
[16:49] <Hix> on the 168 reset that is
[16:51] <griffonbot> Received email: Costyn van Dongen "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
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[16:56] <fsphil> yea the bootloader only listens for a few moments
[16:56] <fsphil> you have to be quick
[16:56] <fsphil> oh right ISP
[16:57] <Upu> no bootloader then
[16:57] <Hix> but I have burned one
[16:58] <fsphil> if you've programmed via ISP, there will be none
[16:58] <Upu> yep
[16:58] <fsphil> unless it was the bootloader itself you flashed
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[16:58] <Hix> I used the burn bootloader tool from the "IDE"
[16:59] <Upu> yeah but the first time you upload a sketch via ICSP
[16:59] <Upu> boot loader is toasted
[16:59] <Upu> so if you want to use it again via USB you need to redo it
[17:00] <Upu> all the boot loader is a small sketch that lets you program the AVR via a serial port rather than the ICSP connector
[17:00] <Hix> so on the 168 on the breadboard there is no bootloader once i upload a sketch?
[17:01] <Upu> if you program it via ICSP yes that is correct
[17:01] <fsphil> wave: http://i.imgur.com/31GJO.jpg
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[17:01] <Upu> if you are going to put that back in a norma Arduino board and program via USB you will need to burn it first
[17:02] <Upu> pretty fsphil @_
[17:02] <Upu> err :)
[17:02] <Hix> nope - it's just for my breadboard to prove out my tracker hardware
[17:02] <WillDuckworth> how is pava programmed upu? nice pic fsphil
[17:02] <Upu> ICSP WillDuckworth
[17:02] <Hix> nice fsphil
[17:02] <Upu> the Arudino studio still programs the boards fine
[17:02] <Upu> Arduino
[17:02] <WillDuckworth> on that jumper - i see
[17:03] <Upu> yeah the 2x3
[17:03] <Upu> Just get one of these : https://www.olimex.com/Products/AVR/Programmers/AVR-ISP500/
[17:03] <Upu> never looked back
[17:08] <fsphil> I must get another one
[17:08] <fsphil> if this one broke I'd be stuck
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[18:12] <fsphil> just saw a point of light streaking across the sky. seemed to fast for an aircraft or satellite
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> superman
[18:13] <fsphil> but didn't leave a trail like a meteor
[18:13] <fsphil> wasn't red and blue
[18:14] Action: SpeedEvil ponders
[18:14] <fsphil> it was going faster than a speeding bullet though :)
[18:14] <fsphil> it can't have been close to me, I didn't hear anything
[18:14] <Hix> low orbit satellite?
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> I guess for satellites, they will not go much faster than a radian a second
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> that'll really be moving though
[18:15] <fsphil> it covered a third of the sky in about 2 seconds
[18:15] <fsphil> heading almost directly west
[18:15] <fsphil> well maybe three seconds
[18:15] <fsphil> really have no idea
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> at 7km/s, that is a radian per three seconds.
[18:16] <fsphil> that's fast
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> I mean that implies an altitude of
[18:16] <fsphil> yea it's the altitude I don't know
[18:17] <fsphil> it did seem to be above the haze we have here atm
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> 21km?
[18:18] <fsphil> how fast can a drone move?
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> that would be at the 'dense' layers of the atmosphere
[18:18] <fsphil> say if it was just 1km up
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> mach 1
[18:18] <fsphil> yikes
[18:19] <fsphil> so it was either something moving seriously fast in space, or something quite fast but really near me and small :)
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> so, burning up meteor, or a toy r/c thingy
[18:20] <fsphil> I've never seen a meteor without a tail
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[18:21] <fsphil> I need to make an all-sky camera :)
[18:21] <Hix> drones are slow generally unless its a missile drone
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[18:22] <Hix> but i doubt they'd be using them over poulations
[18:22] <fsphil> yea that's unlikely
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> networked all sky would be fun
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> exact positions on flying objects
[18:22] <Hix> didnt have a n.korean flag on it did it?
[18:22] <Hix> :D
[18:22] <fsphil> my eyesight isn't that good sadly :)
[18:23] <fsphil> it was however heading towards the US :)
[18:23] <fsphil> I'm going to conclude meteor
[18:23] <fsphil> perhaps a dense one that didn't break apart
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> alions!
[18:24] <Hix> I reckon so, could just have been a small piece of debris re-entering
[18:24] <fsphil> french aliens?
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> Mitchell and Webb
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwocSqmXzt8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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[18:37] <fsphil> nice
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[18:40] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> hey
[18:45] <Lunar_Lander> it really is cold outside
[18:45] <Lunar_Lander> that is not so good
[18:45] <choppyhorse> good for polar bears
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> 0.7c here
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> allegedly -8 tonight
[18:48] <fsphil> told you Lunar_Lander :)
[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[19:00] Action: Laurenceb_ is playing with povray
[19:00] <Laurenceb_> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=242610
[19:00] <Laurenceb_> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=242634
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> some sort of drug delivery thing?
[19:01] <Laurenceb_> heh
[19:01] <Laurenceb_> yes
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[19:04] <Laurenceb_> well - sensor
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> reddy stuff is flexi pcb
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[19:29] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: have you use povray before?
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> yes
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> aaaaaages ago
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/test.png
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> more recently too
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> nothing very complex though
[19:30] <Laurenceb_> cool
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> most of the time I spent using it was on a 386/29
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> 29
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> 20
[19:31] <Laurenceb_> was looking for advice on how to overlay the crackel function
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> sigh
[19:31] <Laurenceb_> as a texture
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> no clue. :-)
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> is there a #povray?
[19:31] <Laurenceb_> nmv then, ill ask on #povray
[19:31] <Laurenceb_> yes
[19:31] <Laurenceb_> i want some crinkled plastic film
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[19:34] <Laurenceb_> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=242637
[19:34] <Laurenceb_> looking hawt
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[19:34] <Laurenceb_> that takes 5minutes on my i7 box :S
[19:36] <Laurenceb_> i guess it'd look a bit nicer at about 4000x2000px then guassian blur and converted back to ~700x500px
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[20:21] <WillDuckworth> hey fsphil / daveake - with the file generated by the ssdv program in linux - what method do you use to send to the transmitter?
[20:23] <fsphil> on my atmega I just take each packet (256 bytes) and pass that to the rtty interrupt
[20:23] <daveake> On the Pi, I just send a packet at a time to the serial port
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> hi dave
[20:24] <WillDuckworth> so for each byte in 256 bytes cat/whatever to tty
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[20:24] <daveake> yes it's just a stream of bytes to send
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[20:24] <daveake> Nothing to add
[20:25] <daveake> Clever stuff already done for us :)
[20:25] <daveake> afk - food
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moK2NHj16_Q&list=UUwLbAytnYpEVbryZurOL8cg&index=1
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[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> hi jdtanner
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[20:54] <griffonbot> Received email: Trevor Cousins "[UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
[20:54] <griffonbot> Received email: Geoff Mather "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
[20:54] <griffonbot> Received email: Trevor Cousins "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
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[20:59] <griffonbot> Received email: Trevor Cousins "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hyowee 800g floater?"
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[21:05] <g7ogxchris> Is the possible Pico launch for tomorrow iffy or firming up I wonder?
[21:06] MrCraig (~IceChat9@cpe-76-185-178-112.tx.res.rr.com) joined #highaltitude.
[21:06] <MrCraig> hi all
[21:06] <Upu> its still 50/50 g7ogxchris
[21:06] <Upu> its not looking too bad at the moment
[21:08] <MrCraig> Work has me visiting the UK at the end of next week, and I'll be there for three weeks. Does anyone here have a notam site that could be available for the weekend of the 9th of Feb?
[21:08] <MrCraig> I'd need only to get a balloon and some gas to do a flight while I'm over there.
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[21:09] <daveake> Not at the mo ... I've got flights planned for the 2 weekends before that, however if one or both are postponed then it could happen
[21:10] <MrCraig> I don't attend this channel so often as I should, with work and timezones etc. If there are changes to your plans daveake, could you email me?
[21:11] <daveake> Sure
[21:12] <fsphil> pack for cold weather
[21:12] <MrCraig> Will do fsphil
[21:14] <fsphil> can we all go back with you? :)
[21:15] <MrCraig> it's not all that much warmer here fsphil, but sure: you could buy a flight out here - or - launch a new balloon initiative, a manned trans-atlantic flight.
[21:16] <MrCraig> having said that about it being the cold part of the year, I can expect it to get warm again in just a few weeks.
[21:16] <fsphil> texas gets cold?
[21:16] <MrCraig> Yes, texas has a winter with similar temps as the UK, it just happens to not last too long. They had snow on christmas day while I was in the UK
[21:16] <fsphil> ah brilliant
[21:17] <fsphil> I'd miss snow. not that we get much
[21:17] <MrCraig> Generally, it's a few degrees warmer in texas even when it's cold - but that doesn't stop it being cold :) I got off the plane after my christmas break and thought the plane had just circled terminal 5 for a while.
[21:18] <MrCraig> and we've had three out of four days of heavy rain too.
[21:18] <fsphil> interesting. it's pretty far south so that's a surprise
[21:18] <daveake> Heaviest rain I've ever seen was in Texas
[21:18] <MrCraig> Distance from sun is still further at this time of year.
[21:19] <MrCraig> The rain has been as heavy as April showers were when I was a kid (that's quite heavy) but again, it really doesn't stick around long. Torney season is headed in though.
[21:19] <fsphil> I don't think earths orbit is elliptical enough to have a big impact on temperatures
[21:20] <MrCraig> Well - Not that I trust every documentary I see, but that's what they were saying on a documentary on the bbc last year (in which they did a HAB flight too)
[21:21] <fsphil> http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/seasons.html
[21:22] <fsphil> the earth is actually closer to the sun during the northern hemisphere winter
[21:22] <MrCraig> I see - I stand corrected :) I can give you experiential data, feels cold here in winter :-p
[21:22] <MrCraig> maybe it's storm front related.
[21:26] <fsphil> we need a meteorologist!
[21:26] <MrCraig> Seems like this is the channel to expect to find one
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> the thing is that the hemisphere is inclined away from the sun during winter
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> so that the sun seems to stand above the southern tropic of capricorn on dec. 21th
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[21:28] <fsphil> texas is quite far south though
[21:28] <g7ogxchris> OK CHEERS UPU..GUESSED SO
[21:29] <Upu> at the moment its looking promising
[21:29] <MrCraig> That'd be a good reason. This documentary that I watched mentioned the inclination of the earth too, and even pointed out iceberg close to the equator in winter months.
[21:29] <Upu> I just need to check the cloud, don't want to be putting a pico with 1g of lift through a rain cloud
[21:29] <fsphil> they're at about the same latitude as the sahara desert
[21:32] Kriegerdaemon (d9e3873b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.227.135.59) joined #highaltitude.
[21:32] <Kriegerdaemon> Hello! =)
[21:32] <MrCraig> Hi Kriegerdaemon
[21:33] <Kriegerdaemon> Somebody from the Skyhab Team here?
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> no, sorry
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> Brian left some time ago
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[21:34] <g7ogxchris> WX MAP SHOWS SHOWERS FOR YOU FROM THE EAST O/N THEN A FRONT ADVANCING FROM THE NW but not predicted to get near you till 1500
[21:34] <Kriegerdaemon> Ah okay. Hm... Did you know something about the Skyhab-Balloon?
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> no, sorry
[21:35] <Kriegerdaemon> OK noprob.
[21:35] <Kriegerdaemon> =)
[21:35] <Upu> what do you want to know Kriegerdaemon ?
[21:36] <Kriegerdaemon> I would like to know the Gas Volume and the Balloon-Type
[21:36] <Upu> 800g Hwoyee balloon
[21:36] <Kriegerdaemon> ah ok
[21:36] <Upu> I think
[21:36] <Upu> using http://habhub.org/calc/
[21:36] <Kriegerdaemon> thx!
[21:36] <Upu> it was about 3000L of He
[21:36] <lz1dev> \o/
[21:37] <Upu> 2.2kg of neck lift
[21:37] <fsphil> yikes
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> Kriegerdaemon, are you from germany?
[21:38] <eroomde> not with a good solid italian name like that
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:38] <Upu> Kriegerdaemon from Trevors mail :
[21:38] <Kriegerdaemon> Yes. I'm a Member of the Skyrider project. We are beginners... =)
[21:38] <Upu> It said a neck lift of about 2500g. the package inc string was 1225 g I think. The pipe connector to the ballon was about 300g. I tied a bucket of water with a total mass of 2100g to the pipe and filled until the balloon lifted it - so it should have been lifting 2500g. e continued with the helium for maybe 2 mins just to be sure.
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
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[21:39] <Kriegerdaemon> Mamy thanks upu!
[21:39] <Upu> If you're new to this http://habhub.org/predict/ works worldwide*
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> Kriegerdaemon, I am from Osnabruck and you?
[21:40] <Upu> *except not at the moment as NOAA is broken
[21:40] <Kriegerdaemon> Bitterfeld near Leipzig.
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:41] <Kriegerdaemon> I'm working at an own burst calculation
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> had been a ballooning city between the war
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> *wars
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:41] <Kriegerdaemon> =)
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[21:42] <Upu> Kriegerdaemon some real data to stick through it : http://ukhas.org.uk/general:flight_data
[21:42] <Kriegerdaemon> Oh that's great! Thank you!
[21:42] <g7ogxchris> temp plummeting here down to +3 degrees
[21:42] <Upu> warm :)
[21:43] <g7ogxchris> i'm a southern softie
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> anthony, did you see the last episode of stargazing?
[21:43] <Upu> no I missed it Lunar but I understand fsphil's balloon wasn't on it
[21:43] <g7ogxchris> nor was fcd
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> I just wanted to say that they had bad luck
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> on the first night clouds
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> and on that third night thick fog
[21:44] <eroomde> g7ogxchris: sympathies from a fellow south coaster
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> I thought about
[21:44] <fsphil> our launch was on local news
[21:44] <g7ogxchris> lol good night all wherever you may be1
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> what is the lower frequency limit for a parabolic dish?
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> could you make a "satellite dish" for balloon reception
[21:45] <fsphil> g'nite g7ogxchris
[21:45] <nigelvh> It's -1 here.
[21:45] <fsphil> it's -sensible outside
[21:45] <Upu> night g7ogxchris, I'll make a call on launch @ 9am tomorrow
[21:45] <nigelvh> (I did the celsius conversion for you.
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[21:45] <Upu> after I've walked the dog up to the launch field and decided if its viable
[21:45] <fsphil> apprecitated nigelvh
[21:46] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: there's not a theoretical frequency limit
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[21:46] <fsphil> HF dish!
[21:46] <fsphil> man that would be BIG
[21:46] <nigelvh> Yeah it would
[21:46] <eroomde> it's more that you wantit to be a certain number of wavelengths in diameter
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:46] <nigelvh> Just use ariceibo
[21:46] <eroomde> and they become impractically large at lower frequencies therefore
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:46] <fsphil> difficult to move nigelvh
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> thus the size of Jodrell Bank for example?
[21:47] <MrCraig> I have to go get ready for an evening meal appointment. Just a quick repeat of my request in case anyone can help - I need a launch site that can be available the weekend of the 9th Feb in England. Please email me if you can help craig@craigchapman.me.uk
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> Brian Cox said several times that Jodrell Bank was the only dish able to track Sputnik
[21:48] <MrCraig> I'd also appreciate being able to use the spacenear tracker.
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> could they even turn it quick enough to follow the satellite across the sky?
[21:48] <MrCraig> take care all, have a great weekend.
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> or did they mean Lunik after all?
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[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> as explained on "The Planets" that the soviets called Lovell to help them track Lunik crashing into the moon
[21:49] <fsphil> the dish at jodrell works all the way down to VHF I believe
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[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> what I also thought about
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> sputnik was made to be received by hams
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> so many people could receive it
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[21:51] <fsphil> it was also really big
[21:51] <fsphil> there's a model at the science museum
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> and 83 kg
[21:52] <fsphil> infact everything was bigger than I expected it
[21:52] <fsphil> They had a model of Huygens, and it was huge too
[21:52] <fsphil> and a full size model of the Lunar_Lander :)
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> cool! :)
[21:52] <fsphil> it's like a two story building
[21:52] <fsphil> and they landed it on the MOON
[21:52] <fsphil> makes it a lot more impressive
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :)
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> like a House!
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> ahhhhh
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> wikipedia says
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> "While the transmissions from Sputnik itself could easily be picked up by a household radio, the Lovell Telescope was the only telescope capable of tracking Sputnik's booster rocket by radar; it first located it just before midnight on 12 October 1957."
[21:54] <fsphil> it's heavy too... 14696 kg
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[21:55] <fsphil> battery lasted 22 days. we're doing something wrong :)
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:56] <eroomde> there's a fairly beefy dish at cambridge
[21:56] <eroomde> http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4070/4674655824_aeb56dd96f_z.jpg
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> btw I wonder if there will be a book on Sir Bernhard
[21:56] <eroomde> and on the same sitw there are the unused 25 dishes from the one mile array
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> on the BBC he said that he was once threatened by the russians because Jodrell Bank was also used by the western military
[21:57] <eroomde> http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4068/4695146079_e8f9df2a05_z.jpg
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> and that he wrote it down to be released after his death
[21:57] <eroomde> we went to investigate them once to see if they could be recommissioned for hab use
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[21:57] <eroomde> but they were pretty rusted up
[21:57] <eroomde> would have been a job
[21:57] <Upu> http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/images/wallpapers/parkesduskmed.jpg
[21:58] <fsphil> parkes is overkill :p
[21:58] <Upu> say hello to my little friend
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> needs some WD-40 then eroomde
[21:58] <fsphil> haha
[21:58] <eroomde> that's my bosses favourite film
[21:58] <Upu> Its great
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> the end song is cool
[21:58] <fsphil> I keep missing it
[21:59] <fsphil> no spoilers please
[21:59] <Upu> The Dish ?
[21:59] <fsphil> yea
[21:59] <eroomde> yep
[21:59] <Upu> you've never seen it fsphil ?
[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, ah no one is singing, it's just the song that plays on the credits
[21:59] <eroomde> he used to work at chibolton observatory
[21:59] <fsphil> never have Upu
[21:59] <Upu> woah...
[21:59] <eroomde> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AbMAXpPtexQ/TgtR41HZEPI/AAAAAAAAAk0/me6NPjra1Z4/s1600/chilbolton_crop_circle_2.png
[21:59] <Upu> this situation needs to be resolved
[21:59] <eroomde> said the film was very very accurate in terms of day-to-day life
[22:00] <Upu> every time I swing the beam round I put Classic Gas on :)
[22:01] <Upu> great film
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> I have two letters from Sir Bernhard
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> and I keep them in honour
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:02] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBEbYXa6Cik
[22:04] <Upu> thats some strumming
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[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> btw the wallpaper is cool Upu
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> I have to decide all the time
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> here on this PC I got Curiosity's self portrait on mars
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> on the other PC I got the recent photo of Saturn's dark side
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> and in the lab I got the aperture science logo
[22:05] <Upu> I have 2 monitors, one has Parkes on it, one has Earthrise from Apollo 8 on it
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[22:06] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: you might like my shot of jupiter from yesterday evening
[22:06] <eroomde> did you see it?
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> no, sorry
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> can you link me to it please?
[22:06] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/F0Rce.jpg
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> nice image code btw :)
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> seems like either Europa or Callisto weren't there
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> I think Io is on the left
[22:08] <Lunar_Lander> and either Ganymede and Callisto or Europa and Ganymede
[22:09] <eroomde> l-t-r: io, europa, ganymede
[22:09] <Lunar_Lander> yeah Stellarium says Callisto was on the far left yesterday
[22:11] <eroomde> ah yes i can actually see callisto now on the raw file
[22:11] <eroomde> way out to the left
[22:12] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:12] <Lunar_Lander> and http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/images/wallpapers/atcarooslge.jpg
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[22:16] <Laurenceb_> this was a bad idea....
[22:16] Action: Laurenceb_ is trying to render crumpled transparent plastic in povray
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> some hours later....
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[22:26] <Kriegerdaemon> The Habitat Burst Calculator (http://habhub.org/calc/) is exactly the same as the CUSF Burst Calculator (http://www.cusf.co.uk/calc/). Both calculations are usind the same calculation source code in JavaScript. But this calculation method doesn't to consider air resistance. Could anyone tell me how exactly are forecasts of this calculation?
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> how do you mean?
[22:28] <Kriegerdaemon> For example: How exactly are the calculated ascent rate oder Time to burst?
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> ascent rate normally doesn't change on the way up
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> it is a complicated thing based on the gas temperature
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> I once computed the lift and the drag statically
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> and the balloon would become faster during the way up
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> but due to the temperature effects that does not happen
[22:31] <Kriegerdaemon> Ah! ok. Yes Temperatures are not to considered... And how large is the difference between calculation an observated Times? More than 30 min? What do you think?
[22:32] <Randomskk> not even close. so long as the balloon bursts at the specified diameter it will be spot on.
[22:32] <Randomskk> the ascent rates remain very constant
[22:32] <Randomskk> however it is unlikely you'll be able to fill to precisely the specified amount of helium (so the value of the ascent rate will be different, causing a different burst alt/time)
[22:32] <Randomskk> and the balloon burst diameter is fairly variable
[22:32] <Randomskk> some burst earlier than others
[22:33] <Kriegerdaemon> Okay! Thank you! =)
[22:34] <Kriegerdaemon> Thank you all for help! CU
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[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> Randomskk, that sentence is somewhere in the University of Minnesota reports
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> and I forgot where it is
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> but there is the one "legendary" sentence explaining why the ascent rate is constant
[22:35] <Spoz> so youre saying the predictions are much more accurate than 30 minutes?
[22:36] <Randomskk> for time to burst, yes
[22:36] <Randomskk> assuming you are correct in your filling and the balloons burst when expected ;)
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[22:37] <Spoz> well yes. I've never done it but I imagine it's not hard to measure the gross lift accurately
[22:37] <Randomskk> heh
[22:37] <Randomskk> try it then report back ;)
[22:37] <Spoz> hehe
[22:37] <Spoz> next weekend
[22:37] <Randomskk> (it is very hard in any amount of wind, but is otherwise fairly easy)
[22:37] <Spoz> ok
[22:38] <Spoz> ugh 35C here again today
[22:40] <nigelvh> I'm happy with my -1
[22:40] <fsphil> it didn't get above 28C when I was in qld
[22:40] <eroomde> mmm, about 2 or 3 here
[22:40] <fsphil> thankfully
[22:40] <eroomde> and a bit damp
[22:40] <eroomde> not much fun
[22:40] <Zuph> 20 here today.
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> 1.8/78% here ATM
[22:41] <fsphil> it's below zero outside here, but I'm not sure how much
[22:41] <fsphil> and foggy
[22:41] <Zuph> Shorts in January, very novel.
[22:41] <fsphil> christmas trees, in summer. man that was weird
[22:42] <eroomde> mmm
[22:42] <LazyLeopard> It's a pleasant 25C or so in Nairobi. Wish I was there...
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[22:44] <Spoz> fsphil, when were you here?
[22:45] <Spoz> and where are you from?
[22:45] <fsphil> november Spoz, from uk
[22:45] <fsphil> visited for the eclipse
[22:45] <Spoz> ah I was in cairns for the eclipse too
[22:45] <fsphil> hopefully not on the beach
[22:45] <Spoz> on the esplanade, didnt see a thing
[22:45] <Spoz> until after totality anyway
[22:45] <fsphil> aye, was there too
[22:45] <fsphil> north or south bit?
[22:46] <Spoz> erm, somewhere in the middle I guess
[22:46] <fsphil> ah not too far away
[22:46] <Spoz> heh
[22:46] <fsphil> I was just north of the middle
[22:46] <fsphil> small world
[22:46] <Spoz> it was a cool experience anyway
[22:46] <Spoz> but now I cant wait to see one properly
[22:46] <fsphil> very, loved how quick it got dark
[22:47] <Spoz> mm
[22:47] <fsphil> yea - there's one in the north atlantic soon-ish
[22:47] <fsphil> will need a boat or aircraft
[22:47] <Spoz> I might have to hang out till sydney 2026
[22:47] <Spoz> or whatever it is
[22:48] <Spoz> Id never been to cairns before, it was a good trip. Ive been wanting to go up there for a while to check out this abandoned hydro power station
[22:48] <fsphil> there is one in central USA too in a few years
[22:48] <Spoz> the eclipse was an excuse to go
[22:48] <Spoz> cool
[22:48] <fsphil> I loved it there
[22:49] <fsphil> though Sydney was cool too
[22:49] <Spoz> yeah nice place, I only wish I got to spend some time on the reef
[22:49] <fsphil> here too, I tried to book a trip out but they where full
[22:49] <fsphil> guess everyone else had the same idea
[22:51] <Spoz> yep
[22:51] <fsphil> saving to to get back!
[22:51] <fsphil> the locals recommended visiting in winter
[22:51] <Spoz> yeah
[22:52] <Spoz> Id go back but it's still very far away, there are closer places to see the reef
[22:52] <Spoz> its in the same state but 2000km away
[22:52] <fsphil> yea, my sence of scale got damaged by that visit
[22:52] <Spoz> there is actually a country closer to brisbane than cairns is, which is a weird concept for people living in aus
[22:53] <Spoz> the country is just enourmous
[22:53] <Spoz> I still dont understand how its the same distance as melbourne... must be map projection or something :p
[22:53] <fsphil> coming home I kept checking the map .... yep, still in australia
[22:53] <fsphil> that went on for hours
[22:53] <Spoz> hehe
[22:53] <fsphil> flew through a lovely thunderstorm near the coast though
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[22:54] <Spoz> mm
[22:54] <Spoz> we have been getting some good storms here lately
[22:55] <Spoz> after a decade of drought
[22:55] <fsphil> one extreme to another eh
[22:55] <Spoz> yep
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: why did you end up in Australia?
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> Spoz, where are you from?
[22:56] <Spoz> haha, it's not a prison anymore speedevil
[22:56] <fsphil> lol
[22:56] <Spoz> Im from brisbane
[22:57] <fsphil> it's true, I did it. I stole those lucky charms
[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering if it was a random holiday
[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> btw do you want a laugh?
[22:57] <fsphil> randomly timed to match the eclipse
[22:57] <Spoz> lunar ?
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[22:58] Nick change: cuddykid_ -> cuddykid
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> this is the former prime minister of Baden-Württemberg
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88OGXLFpeMw
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> in the first part he emphasizes that english will be the "working language" for everyone
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> and just listen
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[23:02] <Spoz> heh
[23:03] <fsphil> english is a tricksy language
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> "we cannot allow sad everione dus as he pleäses"
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> and "in my Homeland, Baden-Württemberg, we are all sitting in one boat"
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[23:23] <Spoz> can anyone explain what determines operating temperature for electronic devices? And how accurate the manufacturers specs are?
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[00:00] --- Sun Jan 13 2013