highaltitude.log.20130102

[00:00] <jcoxon_> hopefully not
[00:00] <jcoxon_> the repeater is parrot
[00:00] <jcoxon_> so won't clash with itself
[00:01] <jcoxon_> and hte second transmitter will be seperate in a payload
[00:01] <jcoxon_> and a different freq
[00:02] <bigcw> well I guess some bench testing will be required
[00:02] <bigcw> my immediate thought would be that the filters on a small receiver probably won't be up to much
[00:02] <bigcw> I would be concerned that the SSB transmission close by would flood the input
[00:03] <bigcw> but without trying it I've no idea how much of a problem that would be
[00:03] <bigcw> I'm sure you know a lot more about this than I do!
[00:05] <jcoxon_> no it is a concern
[00:05] <jcoxon_> and despite bench testing its a different thing in the air
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[00:06] <bigcw> so your plan is to have a 70cm voice repeater on the balloon?
[00:06] <jcoxon_> well
[00:07] <jcoxon_> its not a repeater
[00:07] <jcoxon_> its going to listen to 434.075
[00:07] <jcoxon_> and repeat it
[00:07] <bigcw> ahh on the same frequency?
[00:07] <jcoxon_> transmitting with a licence exempt radio
[00:08] <jcoxon_> bbl
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[00:10] <bigcw> well another question I have, if anyone else is here....
[00:10] <bigcw> when I first started looking at this it was all about the Radiometrix units
[00:11] <bigcw> these days it seems to be the RFM22
[00:11] <bigcw> but the latter looks quite complicated for a newbie
[00:11] <bigcw> so if you were doing your first launch again would you go radiometrix or rfm22?
[00:12] <mfa298> probably depends what you want to do. My impression is the Radiometrix is nice and simple to use.
[00:13] <mfa298> the RFM might have some advantages for some people (adjustable power, possibly more stable)
[00:13] <bigcw> my first objective is just to get a balloon up, down and recovered safely
[00:13] <bigcw> if I can do that I'll be a bit more adventurous
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[00:15] <mfa298> radiometrix NTX is pobably the easiest way to go.
[00:15] <bigcw> yes, it certainly looks a lot easier in terms of hardware/software
[00:16] <mfa298> the other reasons some people have gone for the rfm22b is that you can change frequency easily and by the looks of it its cheaper
[00:16] <bigcw> sure, I spotted both of those things
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[00:17] <bigcw> but there is only 2 frequencies (in 70cm band) that are legal, right?
[00:17] <bigcw> *are
[00:17] <mfa298> there's a range of frequencies that are allowed
[00:17] <mfa298> but there's only two ntx modules on specific frequencies
[00:18] <gonzo__> two ranges actually. But we only use the upper of them, as the lower one is limite to 1mW
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[00:18] <mfa298> IR2030 is the doc to read for whats allowed
[00:19] <bigcw> that's an ofcom doc I assume?
[00:20] <Dark3D> The NTX/HX are 5v regulated, where the RFM can run down to 1.8v.
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[00:21] <mfa298> yep that's an ofcom document
[00:21] <bigcw> I see the 5v thing as an advantage I think
[00:21] <bigcw> as I'll use Arduino, as it's what I know
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[00:21] <bigcw> so it will place nicely on a 5v power supply
[00:21] <bigcw> *play
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[00:23] <daveake> Go for NTX2 as it's simpler and more reliable.
[00:24] <Dark3D> I am looking at power savings and am wanting to build a 3.3v board, but now I need to find a different module.
[00:24] <daveake> It will run from 5V or 3.3v
[00:24] <Dark3D> really/
[00:24] <Dark3D> ?
[00:24] <daveake> Yes really
[00:25] <gonzo__> from mem, will run down to 2.9v
[00:25] <daveake> It has its own reg. 2.8V IIRC
[00:25] <bigcw> this is the radiometrix module you're talking about?
[00:25] <daveake> Yes, I said NTX2
[00:26] <Dark3D> cool. I'm looking at the data sheet and it's not very compelling about actual operating range
[00:26] <bigcw> just looking at the data sheet, it does indeed say 2.9-15v
[00:27] <daveake> I recommend 3.3V logic - makes it simple took interface to GPS etc
[00:27] <daveake> Simpler to
[00:27] <Dark3D> I stand corrected. I'm using the hx1.
[00:29] <bigcw> doesn't 3.3v make the arduino difficult?
[00:29] <bigcw> i thought they were 5v?
[00:30] <daveake> Some are 3.3V
[00:30] <bigcw> just googling
[00:31] <bigcw> I'm a bit of a newbie with 3.3v logic to be honest
[00:31] <Dark3D> 328p 1.8-5.5v
[00:31] <daveake> Everything else will be 3.3v so best to keep it a
[00:31] <bigcw> when I learnt this stuff it was either 5v TTL or 5-15v CMOS (or was it the other way around?)
[00:31] <daveake> Keep it all the same
[00:31] <bigcw> is there anything to know other than everything needs to be 3.3v?
[00:32] <daveake> No
[00:32] <daveake> If it's not all the same you'll need to deal with level translation
[00:33] <bigcw> that's about the only thing I knew about 3.3v!
[00:33] <bigcw> so as long as I have a 3.3v arduino, 3.3v gps, etc it should all work the same as the 5v I'm used to?
[00:34] <daveake> Yes
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[00:35] <bigcw> ok, thanks
[00:37] <niftylettuce> hey folks if you're interested in building your own RC Cessna check out my github repo https://github.com/niftylettuce/cessna-182-skylane-rc-plans
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[00:41] <domlin> morning all
[00:41] <Dark3D> evening
[00:42] <niftylettuce> hiya
[00:43] <domlin> just found this
[00:43] <domlin> http://www.fukung.net/v/26888/ccf81f1850169c789d207e47fbda474b.jpg
[00:43] <domlin> it confused me
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[01:02] <bigcw> is it acceptable to have the GPS aerial inside the payload?
[01:03] <bigcw> or should I be thinking about mounting it externally?
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[01:14] <Darkside> fine inside
[01:14] <Darkside> as long as you aren't wrapping the payload in foil or something
[01:15] <domlin> or lead
[01:15] <bigcw> I wasn't planning on it
[01:15] <bigcw> thanks
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[02:38] <Dark3D> Darkside you still up?
[02:40] <shenki> he had better be, it's ten past one in the afternoon ;)
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[02:42] <Darkside> urgh
[02:42] <Darkside> Dark3D: yeah
[02:44] <arko> evening
[02:48] <Dark3D> I was curious if any of you have played with any other models from Hope? like the RF61 or RF62
[02:48] <Dark3D> talking transceiver modules
[02:48] <Darkside> nah
[02:48] <Darkside> i think navrac has
[02:49] <Dark3D> Ok, thanks
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[02:55] <Dark3D> shenki: it's almost 9pm here. :/
[02:56] <shenki> Dark3D: :)
[02:56] <shenki> Dark3D: I live in the same city as Dark3D
[02:56] <shenki> err
[02:56] <Darkside> Australia mate
[02:56] <Darkside> hahhahaha
[02:56] <shenki> as Darkside
[02:56] <Darkside> dontcha love autocomplete
[02:57] <Dark3D> heh
[02:57] <shenki> yeah. who decided 3 comes before s anyway
[02:58] <Dark3D> DarkZD better?
[02:59] <shenki> :)
[03:00] <Darkside> it's even worse when people use their callsigns
[03:01] <Darkside> i'm in a channel where a few people do that, and we're all from teh same country
[03:01] <Darkside> so vk<tab> doesn't help at all
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[03:05] <Dark3D> I was going to use my callsign, but I thought I may visit some unrelated channels and it wouldn't make much sense
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[04:50] <SpeedEvil> http://www.b3tards.com/u/ee81e02fe554dafe7451/spockpost1.jpg
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[07:05] <x-f> good morning?
[07:05] <craag> morning x-f
[07:05] <arko> morning
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[07:14] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: nothing here by now :-(
[07:24] <x-f> if the prediction on spacenearus for STORM is correct, then it might be seeing sunrise in a hour
[07:25] <x-f> however fsphil expected it to go straight east, i guess
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[07:32] <hyte> What party of the tx string goes into the checksum?
[07:32] <hyte> *part
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[07:34] <Darkside> everything after the $$'s
[07:34] <craag> Everything after the last $ and before the *
[07:36] <arko> anyone here ever deal with the predictor getting stuck at "Starting to poll progress JSON"
[07:36] <fsphil> thanks for checking SP9UOB_Tom
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[07:39] <hyte> cheers
[07:48] Nick change: numbr10 -> number10
[07:52] <arko> ah!
[07:52] <arko> figured it out
[07:52] <arko> just incase someone is going through this history later looking for a solution
[07:53] <arko> i changed the line "/var/www/hab/predict/" in config.inc.php to the actual directory
[07:53] <arko> runs like a charm
[07:53] <arko> good thing i actually read the logs
[07:54] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: I can listen up to 11 UTC
[07:58] <craag> arko: There's a lot of hardcoded paths in the predictor, one of the reasons I've forked it is to take them all out!
[08:03] <hyte> i've got fldigi decoding such as "$$HYTE001,21,080050,5129.93204,-00006.60846,36.2,*32\n" and it says bad checksum but it works out correct to me(XOR), is there something i'm missing?
[08:04] <craag> It's a bad idea to use XOR checksum rather than CRC16
[08:05] <hyte> yep, but was just trying to get something that works as i'm programming in basic so no example code exists
[08:06] <craag> Basic? Ah ok, am looking for an online XOR calculator but can't seem to find one atm..
[08:06] <hyte> one min
[08:06] <hyte> http://www.hhhh.org/wiml/proj/nmeaxor.html
[08:06] <hyte> work for the example XOR sentence on the ukhas site
[08:07] <hyte> *works
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> hyte
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> unsigned short CrcXmodem( const void *dataP, size_t n )
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> {
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> unsigned char *p = (unsigned char *)dataP;
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> unsigned short crc = 0xffff;
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> unsigned char i;
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> while (n--)
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> {
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> crc ^= (unsigned short)*p++ << 8;
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> for (i = 8; i != 0; --i)
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> {
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> if ((crc & 0x8000) != 0)
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> crc = (crc << 1) ^ 0x1021;
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> else
[08:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> crc <<= 1;
[08:07] <zyp> please, use a pastebin
[08:08] <hyte> yep, I'll port it to basic in due course, XOR was much simpler to do quick
[08:08] <craag> hyte: Hmm, looks alright to me. Do you have a payload doc setup so dl-fldigi knows to use the XOR?
[08:09] <craag> (I haven't used XOR before, but I guess it has to know)
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[08:09] <zyp> I'm a bit amused by the fact that someone is using basic in 2013
[08:10] <costyn> good morning and happy new year to everybody!
[08:12] <x-f> morning and HNY, costyn!
[08:12] <hyte> yep, done that and it says XOR
[08:12] <craag> And you've selected it under testing payloads in dl-fldigi?
[08:13] <x-f> costyn, a bit late to reply now, but still - i used rtl_tcp on a remote PC, it wasn't a RPi
[08:15] <costyn> x-f: ah ok
[08:16] <x-f> costyn, i read the webpage about your tracking system and had a thought, that you could possibly not run a separate power cable to the roof, but use the ethernet cable for that, maybe with something like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200841109556 or just DIY
[08:16] <hyte> yep
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[08:16] <hyte> http://www.coridiumcorp.com/prod-specs1.html
[08:16] <costyn> x-f: yea we were thinking the same
[08:16] <costyn> x-f: we'll just do something DIY
[08:17] <costyn> x-f: nice link
[08:17] <x-f> good
[08:18] <costyn> x-f: I adjusted the wiki page. :)
[08:18] <craag> hyte: Ok.. I don't know then. I suggest you port the CRC16 code over instead, as you should do that anyway.
[08:18] <arko> craag: awesome
[08:19] <arko> yeah those harded coded things are driving me mad :)
[08:19] <arko> haha
[08:19] <hyte> ok, cheers
[08:20] <costyn> x-f: this looks to easy and cheap not to buy and use :)
[08:20] <costyn> *too
[08:20] <craag> arko: The most annoying thing is that predict.py takes the current directory as one of it's arguments, then proceeds to ignore it. I might put a pull request up to fix that.
[08:20] <x-f> costyn, hehe :)
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[08:20] <arko> cool
[08:21] <arko> yeah, looking through all this i actually noticed that
[08:21] <arko> hah
[08:21] Nick change: daveake1 -> daveake
[08:21] <arko> i just got my environment setup
[08:21] <arko> so i can code, compile and run now
[08:22] <arko> so finally going to try to help make it a little more accurate one way or another
[08:22] <arko> if you guys like it, add it in
[08:22] <arko> else
[08:22] <arko> i will dance around my laptop
[08:22] <costyn> :D
[08:22] <arko> :D
[08:22] <craag> arko: Awesome.
[08:23] <craag> hyte: Interesting device. I've been looking at the ARM M0+ for a possible payload.
[08:23] <hyte> the chip on its own withou the basic is pretty cheap if you can find it in a suitable package
[08:24] <craag> hyte: http://www.element14.com/community/community/knode/dev_platforms_kits/element14_dev_kits/kinetis_kl2_freedom_board
[08:24] <craag> A friend has got a couple of these ^^ for his phd work.
[08:24] <craag> Power profile of an AVR
[08:25] <craag> But 48MHz 32-bit processors.
[08:25] <craag> With USB OTG, I was thinking they would be ideal for ssdv.
[08:26] <craag> Board is only $13 as well, barely more than your M0!
[08:27] <hyte> wow, cheap
[08:27] <arko> ahhh!H!!!!!!!
[08:27] <arko> again with hard coded
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[08:27] <arko> "/var/www/html/cusf-standalone-predictor-master/pred_src"
[08:27] <fsphil> freedom board? sounds like something out of florida
[08:27] <craag> arko: hehe
[08:27] Action: arko explodes
[08:30] <arko> hah!
[08:31] <arko> finally
[08:31] <arko> there we go
[08:36] Nick change: Mission-Critical -> MissionCritical
[08:37] <craag> There's a small chance we might try to one-up Project SHARP by developing a similar platform with one these. Requiring 99% less battery weight.. I've yet to play around with one though.
[08:40] <craag> The 3x UARTs + USB + 2x SPI buses + 2x I2C + ADCs, DACs etc, all make it look a fun board to be a platform base.
[08:42] <fsphil> yes please don't use software driven rtty on that ;)
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[08:43] <hyte> what would be better?
[08:43] <fsphil> better timing
[08:43] <craag> No! It looks like the low-power UART should do 300 baud no problem, maybe 50 baud if the divisors allow.
[08:43] <fsphil> especially if the board runs a larger OS like linux
[08:44] <hyte> still rtty?
[08:44] <fsphil> if I remember correctly it was one of the problems sharp had, their rtty timing kept messing up
[08:44] <fsphil> yea, rtty works well for us
[08:44] <fsphil> no point changing just yet
[08:45] <hyte> k
[08:45] <costyn> fsphil: any idea what went wrong with your payload?
[08:45] <fsphil> I think it got too cold. friend of mine things it picked up condensation from the clouds
[08:46] <fsphil> it may be a combination of those
[08:46] <fsphil> the condensation would have frozen on the pcb
[08:46] <costyn> hmm too bad
[08:46] <costyn> how are you going to solve that next time?
[08:46] <fsphil> go back to using a sealed polystyrene box
[08:47] <fsphil> the boxes I usually fly have only enough room for the boards, so there isn't too much air inside
[08:47] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: is there gap between STORM transmissions?
[08:47] <fsphil> no gaps SP9UOB_Tom
[08:48] <SP9UOB_Tom> well... still nothing
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[08:48] <fsphil> it's pretty unlikely
[08:49] <fsphil> it may be over russia by now, if it's still up
[08:50] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: well... do You want to start local conflict in Europe ;-) ?
[08:50] <craag> fsphil: What balloon did you use?
[08:51] <fsphil> it was a 1600g howeyeeyefloaty
[08:51] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: or drink tea sweetened with polonium ;-)
[08:51] <fsphil> howyee is it? I can never remember
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[08:52] <SP9UOB_Tom> hwoyee
[08:52] <fsphil> oh great, vladimirek is just going to get the tea now
[08:52] <craag> Ok cool!
[08:52] <craag> So would have been a really high float.
[08:52] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: hydrogen?
[08:52] <fsphil> helium
[08:52] <fsphil> I was filling indoors
[08:53] <fsphil> didn't want to use H2 for that
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[08:53] <SP9UOB_Tom> we really need inflammable version of hydrogen ;-)
[08:54] <cm13g09> SP9UOB_Tom: It was called Helium :P
[08:54] <costyn> SP9UOB_Tom: non-flammable I think you mean?
[08:54] <costyn> SP9UOB_Tom: flammable = inflammable (stupid English)
[08:54] <cm13g09> yeah
[08:54] <SP9UOB_Tom> costyn: yes, sorry for my english
[08:54] <cm13g09> what costyn said
[08:54] <costyn> SP9UOB_Tom: no worries, just thought might be good to know :)
[08:54] <fsphil> it is a very odd bit of english that
[08:54] <SP9UOB_Tom> but helium is really expensive
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[08:55] <SP9UOB_Tom> so inflammable or non flammable ?
[08:55] <cm13g09> SP9UOB_Tom: hence the /was/ in my previous sentence
[08:55] <cm13g09> non-flammable
[08:55] <costyn> SP9UOB_Tom: inflammable means it burns, just like flammable means it burns so they mean the same thing. non-flammable means it doesn't burn
[08:56] <SP9UOB_Tom> costyn: ok thanks :-) IRC is the best way to improve my english ;-)
[08:56] <fsphil> lolz
[08:57] <costyn> strangely enough I don't think unflammable is a word, although that would make the most sense if you ask me
[08:57] <fsphil> do most people who have english as a second language learn it in school?
[08:58] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: i was learning russian aa a second language in school, but it was a long time ago
[08:58] <costyn> fsphil: I went to an American middle and high school, so I'm not your average Dutch bilingual
[08:58] <fsphil> I found most dutch people to have pretty good english
[08:59] <SP9UOB_Tom> now in poland english is second language, sometimes deutch
[08:59] <costyn> fsphil: but they do teach English to quite a good level here. Many/most Dutch people know Dutch and English, and many also a 3rd language like French or German
[08:59] <SP9UOB_Tom> german
[08:59] <fsphil> we've a fair few polish people here where I work, and they've got pretty good english too
[09:00] <fsphil> almost nobody comes out of school here with a second language
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[09:00] <SP9UOB_Tom> well, i can understand almost everything (ie movies, tech docs) but i have problems with grammar
[09:01] <fsphil> yea me too :)
[09:01] <costyn> hehe
[09:03] Action: fsphil monitors the news for any "missile tests" in russia
[09:04] <SP9UOB_Tom> That's why I'm ashamed to speak
[09:04] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: hahahah
[09:04] <fsphil> it's such a big and annoyingly placed country
[09:05] <fsphil> I wonder if neighbouring countries launch met sondes nearby, they must get a fair few of those entering their airspace
[09:05] <SP9UOB_Tom> guys from USA has much better geo-location for HABing
[09:05] <fsphil> australia would be good too, with a satellite tracker
[09:05] <fsphil> not too many countries it could get to
[09:06] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: remember THEY can find You ;-)
[09:07] <fsphil> nah, it's not got my name on it :)
[09:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: im think its not a problem for they ;-)
[09:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> them
[09:07] <SP9UOB_Tom> ;-)
[09:08] <fsphil> it could make it to china if it survives today
[09:08] <SP9UOB_Tom> anyway rubber balloon with small payload reflect almost nothing in radar frequencies
[09:08] <x-f> fsphil, launch site for our met-office is less then two hundred kilometers from the border
[09:09] <fsphil> yea it'll be pretty invisible of it's really not tx'ing
[09:09] <fsphil> the balloon itself might be visually spotted
[09:09] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: and is relatvely high
[09:10] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: yes some of polish hams saw my ballon at 32 km altitude
[09:10] <fsphil> sweet!
[09:11] <fsphil> it doesn't happen often that
[09:11] <SP9UOB_Tom> october floater
[09:11] <costyn> SP9UOB_Tom: that's cool
[09:11] <fsphil> but anyway, I'll be repeating this flight
[09:11] <fsphil> I have enough helium left
[09:11] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: aim to fly over Poland ;-)
[09:11] <fsphil> again
[09:12] <fsphil> well we'll never know I guess
[09:12] <fsphil> I'm pretty sure it made it as far as poland
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[09:25] <arko> anyone love or hate libkml?
[09:27] <eroomde> neither
[09:27] <eroomde> i want it for my armpits
[09:28] <costyn> wut
[09:29] <daveake> is it hairy then?
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[09:29] <eroomde> costyn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6IBiR9m3vY
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[10:05] <cuddykid> who's behind HABJOE?
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[10:08] <costyn> eroomde: heh
[10:11] <fsphil> few pics and video from the launch: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/fsphil/sets/72157632412409312/
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[10:12] <eroomde> nice
[10:12] <kokey> thought it was an indoor launch there for a moment
[10:12] <fsphil> indoor fill. which is brilliant
[10:13] <kokey> did it have a camera?
[10:14] <fsphil> no, just a tracker
[10:14] <fsphil> a first for me
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[10:18] <kokey> hehe
[10:18] <kokey> I better order some modules by the end of the week
[10:18] <kokey> and see if I can get a pico launch up before I skip country
[10:18] <kokey> would be nice to get a proper launch up in Cape Town
[10:21] Action: kokey checks the license exempt list for SA
[10:22] <kokey> 433-434 1mW 100% duty cycle, 10mW for under 10% duty cycle
[10:22] <kokey> oh, and another one 10mW 100% duty cycle up to 25khz channel spacing
[10:23] <kokey> ok, PMR also available
[10:24] <kokey> cool, things are a hell lot better than it used to be under apartheid days
[10:24] <kokey> back then they were scared someone might just say 'nelson mandela' over the radio
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[10:33] Nick change: daveake1 -> daveake
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[11:10] <cuddykid> fsphil: what size balloon did you fly? looks big
[11:10] <Darkside> 1600g
[11:10] <cuddykid> ah
[11:12] <fsphil> yea, I'm glad we had big doors
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[11:17] <costyn> fsphil: is that you holding it?
[11:18] <costyn> geez... indoor filling was pretty necesssary with that wind :)
[11:20] <fsphil> it is :)
[11:20] <costyn> fsphil: ah, :) always curious to see faces that belong to the names here on IRC
[11:20] <fsphil> the wind at launch wasn't too bad actually
[11:21] <fsphil> we got lucky
[11:21] <fsphil> but yes, definitely got to try again
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[11:29] <SP9UOB_Tom> fsphil: still nothing here :-(
[11:29] <fsphil> looking like the rfm22 reset itsefl
[11:29] <fsphil> itself*
[11:32] <Navrac_Play> ddi you tie the sdn pin somewhere - I had rfm resetting probs till I remembered i needed to do something with the pin rather than let it float
[11:34] Nick change: Navrac_Play -> navrac
[11:34] <malgar> how much do you pay the helium?
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[11:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> Anybody else having a problem with dl-fldigi crashing on startup ?
[11:42] <fsphil> Geoff-G8DHE: you might need to remove your old configuration files
[11:42] <fsphil> good question navrac
[11:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Could be any idea where they are saved to, it does keep coming up with the Config request and then crashes :-(
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[11:43] <fsphil> on windows they'll be in your profile
[11:43] <fsphil> which could be something like c:\documents and settings\<username>\
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[11:43] <fsphil> or c:\Users\
[11:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup most likely I'll start hunting!
[11:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah ha yes helpfully in a folder called "C:\Users\Geoff\dl-fldigi.files"
[11:44] <fsphil> if you haven't deleted it already, can you keep a copy
[11:45] <fsphil> it would be useful to know what setting is causing the crash
[11:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes I tend not to delete until causes are found ;-) So they are now "C:\Users\Geoff\dl-fldigi.files.old"
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[11:47] <SP9UOB_Tom> bye All !
[11:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup that cured the problem thanks fsphil
[11:48] <fsphil> cya SP9UOB_Tom, and thanks for listening out
[11:48] <SP9UOB_Tom> no problem, cya
[11:48] <SP9UOB_Tom> .bye
[11:48] <fsphil> Geoff-G8DHE: interesting. can you zip up the old config and email it to me?
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[11:48] <fsphil> I'll see if I can reproduce the crash with it
[11:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> Can do, it was working fine last night uptil around 19:00ish, then when I came back and started looking for "STORM" again it just wouldn't play happily. Have you an email I can send it to ?
[11:50] <fsphil> PM
[11:50] <fsphil> that's even weirder
[11:51] <fsphil> so it wasn't the upgrade that cause it
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[11:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup had me going, fldigi was fine, but either version of dl- was not, the only things I had been changing around the time was the RTTY shift settings to handle uXABEN and STORM which were chnging rapidly with volts/temp.
[11:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> Nope the upgrade I did within minutes of you announcing it the other day on the G+ forum
[11:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> OK fsphil you have email shortly
[11:57] <fsphil> thanks
[11:59] <fsphil> received
[11:59] <fsphil> I'll take a look at that over lunch
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[13:23] <griffonbot> Received email: Chris Suddell "[UKHAS] Re: Radio to receive 70cm HAB transmissions"
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[14:13] <WillDuckworth> hey upu - is pava working ok at 1.8V and 4MHz? what sort of battery life so far?!
[14:14] <UpuWork> Hi Will
[14:14] <UpuWork> y3es
[14:14] <UpuWork> oo
[14:14] <UpuWork> yes
[14:14] Geoff-G8DHE (5d61a0c6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.97.160.198) left irc:
[14:14] <griffonbot> Received email: navrac "[UKHAS] Re: Radio to receive 70cm HAB transmissions"
[14:15] <UpuWork> 1.8v 4Mhz with no power saving is about 110mA from the battery or 27 ish hours from a single AA
[14:15] <UpuWork> with power saving brings that down
[14:15] <UpuWork> 67mA so 45 hours from an AA
[14:15] <UpuWork> single cell in 11dB continous TX
[14:16] <WillDuckworth> looking good. just checking your blog - some funky stuff needed to get the arduino programmer going by the looks of it - that right?
[14:16] <UpuWork> 3.3v 8Mhz is 12 hours/20 hours for same code
[14:16] <UpuWork> well not really just a new board definition
[14:16] <UpuWork> you need to set the fuses in the AVR Studio first
[14:16] <UpuWork> then you can program it in Arduino
[14:16] <WillDuckworth> ah - right, i see
[14:17] <UpuWork> I've had it working at 1Mhz from the internal clock too 1 sec
[14:17] <UpuWork> http://pastebin.com/wK8ZMabk
[14:17] <UpuWork> Add those to boards.txt
[14:18] <UpuWork> the low, high and extended fuses are in there
[14:18] <fsphil> I had trouble getting my programmer working in arudino-- not sure what fixed it in the end
[14:18] <UpuWork> magic
[14:19] <fsphil> suspect so
[14:19] <UpuWork> setup.exe
[14:19] <daveake> It's a required skill
[14:19] <fsphil> I've a feeling this would have happened in windows too
[14:19] <UpuWork> it used to be a problem
[14:19] <WillDuckworth> good work upu
[14:19] <UpuWork> but since Arduino 1.0 they've added uploading using programmer
[14:19] <fsphil> I had the option but it didn't see my device
[14:19] <UpuWork> there are small issues with the Olimex one and you have to amend the programmers.txt slightly
[14:20] <UpuWork> but the Olimex is great works a treat
[14:20] <fsphil> I changed the comms method from usb to serial
[14:20] <fsphil> but it kept insisting on using /dev/ttyS0 instead of /dev/ttyACM0
[14:30] <Laurenceb> hi
[14:31] <Laurenceb> can anyone here help me with ubuntu?
[14:31] <Laurenceb> i have some issues....
[14:31] <Randomskk> maybe
[14:31] <Laurenceb> #ubuntu is useless
[14:31] <Laurenceb> i think i ran out of cache
[14:31] <Laurenceb> firefox ate it
[14:32] <Laurenceb> now ive got "Swap : 0k total"
[14:32] <Laurenceb> and something has gone wrong with X
[14:32] <Laurenceb> im missing top bars of windows
[14:32] <Randomskk> reboot?
[14:33] <Laurenceb> id rather not
[14:33] <Laurenceb> theres stuff on here that id like to save
[14:33] <mfa298> what's the whole of "free -m"
[14:33] <Laurenceb> total used free shared buffers cached
[14:33] <Laurenceb> Mem: 3210 1944 1266 0 7 531
[14:33] <Laurenceb> -/+ buffers/cache: 1405 1804
[14:33] <Laurenceb> Swap: 0 0 0
[14:34] <bigcw> can't you just kill firefox if that's what is eating up swap?
[14:34] <Randomskk> loads of free memory
[14:34] <Randomskk> you don't have any swap
[14:34] <mfa298> that suggestes no swap at all
[14:34] <Randomskk> you don't appear to even have a swap partition
[14:34] <Laurenceb> i killed firefox soon as i realised itd gone mad
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> indeed
[14:34] <Laurenceb> was chewing through all my meory
[14:34] <Randomskk> maybe you should get a swap partition
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> just start a window manager
[14:34] <fsphil> need to re-run your window manager
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[14:35] <SpeedEvil> twm, for example
[14:35] <Randomskk> or awesome
[14:35] <Randomskk> >_>
[14:35] <Laurenceb> i have desktop atm
[14:35] <mfa298> chances are if the machine ran out of memory it started randomly killing stuff
[14:35] <Randomskk> yes but if the tops of windows has gone your window manager has bit the dust
[14:35] <Laurenceb> but ive lots top bards of all the windows
[14:35] <fsphil> I wish twm had been called tvm
[14:35] <Laurenceb> ok
[14:35] <Laurenceb> how do i fix the swap?
[14:35] <mfa298> you might find something in dmesg or on the console about it killing stuff
[14:35] <Randomskk> man swapon
[14:35] <Laurenceb> ok
[14:36] <Randomskk> >_>
[14:36] <fsphil> if you don't already have a swap partition, you'll need to repartition
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> dd to make a large file
[14:36] <Laurenceb> i have one
[14:36] <fsphil> or use a second disk
[14:36] <Randomskk> more usefully you'll want to make sure you have a swap partition on disk and then add it to fstab
[14:36] <Laurenceb> theres a 16GB swap on here
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> mkswap /partition
[14:36] <Randomskk> add it to fstab
[14:36] <fsphil> ah yes, dd'ing a swap file is a good emergency method
[14:36] <Laurenceb> firefox ate all the ram then started on the swap
[14:36] <Randomskk> interesting
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> swapon /partition
[14:36] <Laurenceb> when it ran out bad stuff happened
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> make sure you get the right partition
[14:37] <zyp> getting more memory is a better permanent solution
[14:37] <fsphil> indeed, or worse things happen
[14:37] <zyp> with the memory prices of today, swap is obsolete
[14:37] <bigcw> agreed zyp
[14:37] <mfa298> it's always worth having swap space as it allows you to make better use of the memory
[14:38] <zyp> mfa298, do you really think the usefulness of disk cache is greater than the usefulness of the rest of your memory content in a significant manner?
[14:39] <mfa298> well I think the above just showed the usefulness of swap.
[14:39] <zyp> if so; get more memory
[14:39] <mfa298> it adds a buffer for when things go mad
[14:39] <zyp> no, it shows that he didn't have enough memory.
[14:40] <Laurenceb> swapon: /dev/sda2: read swap header failed: Invalid argument
[14:40] <zyp> mkswap first
[14:40] <Laurenceb> zyp: any amount of memory would have been too small
[14:40] <Laurenceb> ok
[14:40] <Laurenceb> firefox went bad
[14:40] <mfa298> and the OS can put stuff that's needed but not doing anything into swap giving more space for cache and active apps
[14:40] <zyp> I don't find grinding to a halt is more sane than killing aberrant processes
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[14:41] <mfa298> zyp: the usual out come of killing random processes is a requirement for reboot.
[14:41] <zyp> no
[14:41] <mfa298> the OS doesn't always kill the misbehaving process it kills random things.
[14:42] <Laurenceb> how do i uncache the cached swap?
[14:42] <mfa298> in this case it sounds like firefox was misbehaving and the OS killed parts of the window manager
[14:42] <Laurenceb> i seem to have ~500MB of cached swap
[14:42] <zyp> mfa298, what you say might be true if you hit it with something like a forkbomb, but if you have a single leaking process it will be killed
[14:42] <SpeedEvil> it will uncache as programs need it
[14:43] <Laurenceb> ok
[14:43] <Laurenceb> so i need to restart x ?
[14:43] <zyp> and if you have swap the only difference will be the system grinding to a halt while swap fills up, and then it will be killed
[14:43] <mfa298> zyp that's never happened in my experience
[14:43] <SpeedEvil> you can't explicitly uncache it, unless you add a new swap file, and then swap off the old
[14:43] <SpeedEvil> what do you want to recover?
[14:43] <Laurenceb> some octave sessions
[14:44] <zyp> Laurenceb, you must be misunderstanding something
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> starting a window manager should give you back usable windows
[14:44] <Laurenceb> they might be saved...
[14:44] <Laurenceb> wait do i kill the old one or not?
[14:44] <zyp> which old one?
[14:44] <DanielRichman> there shouldn't be a need to
[14:45] <Laurenceb> old window manager session
[14:45] <DanielRichman> by window manager we mean metacity, compiz, one of those, not the X server
[14:45] <SpeedEvil> if you have no window decorations, the wm has died
[14:45] <zyp> if you don't have window decorations, it's likely because it's already dead
[14:45] <Laurenceb> ah
[14:45] <Laurenceb> i see now
[14:45] <DanielRichman> if you type `metacity --replace &` into a console, you should hopefully get the window bars back
[14:45] <Laurenceb> any idea which manager i need? this is 10.04
[14:46] <DanielRichman> yeah go for metacity
[14:46] <zyp> probably metacity
[14:46] <fsphil> any will do until you can close what you need to and reboot
[14:46] <Laurenceb> aha fixed
[14:46] <Laurenceb> thanks
[14:48] <zyp> mfa298, keep in mind that amount of disk cache has diminishing returns
[14:48] <mfa298> that depends a lot on what the server is doing.
[14:48] <zyp> so when you keep adding memory, the value of using it as disk cache eventually becomes less than the value of using it to store inactive content, due to time of swapping it back in
[14:49] <zyp> I'm not talking about servers, I'm thinking about desktop workstations
[14:49] <mfa298> but disk cache is partly just a way of making better use of unused memory
[14:49] <mfa298> same can be true on desktops - it depends a lot on what your doing.
[14:50] <mfa298> I've mostly worked on servers so that's where I tend to see things more
[14:50] <zyp> how is adding x amount of swap better than adding x amount of more memory, in terms other than cost?
[14:51] <zyp> the added noticeability of your system grinding to a halt as memory is almost full?
[14:51] <mfa298> and the amount you can add, I think most of my physical machines are maxed out on ram
[14:52] <mfa298> the aim is not to use the swap but have it as a buffer for when things go mad
[14:52] <zyp> why not use the ram otherwise used for disk cache as a buffer?
[14:53] <zyp> maybe you'll even be able to kill the misbehaving process that way, because your windowmanager didn't just get swapped out to make room for it
[14:54] <mfa298> usually you're not going to have that larger a cache
[14:54] <zyp> how much larger is «that larger»?
[14:54] <zyp> memory is cheap nowadays
[14:55] <mfa298> motherboards and cpu's tend to have a relativly low limit on how much you can add my 2 year old i7 board (and it was a good board in the day) is maxed out at 16G
[14:55] <zyp> 16G is relatively low?
[14:56] <mfa298> depends a lot on what you're doing.
[14:56] <mfa298> I've specced desktops (workstations) with considerably more than that.
[14:57] <fsphil> I'd love half that
[14:57] <zyp> mfa298, yes, I maxed out my new workstation with 32G
[14:57] <zyp> I'm almost never over 25%
[14:58] <mfa298> I think the summary of what I've tried to say is having swap space is good, but you don't want to be using it on a regular basis.
[14:58] <zyp> I just don't find your arguments for the good-part to be very convincing
[14:59] <mfa298> the other way of putting it is have enough ram for what you're doing, but there's no harm in adding swap space as a just in case.
[15:00] <zyp> except the cost of the unused swap space, which is pretty much free on a normal hdd, but may be significant on a ssd
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[15:01] <zyp> and, as mentioned, the joy of watching your window manager get swapped out when you are trying to kill the misbehaving process :)
[15:02] <mfa298> personally I'm not sure I'd ever put swap on an ssd, partly due to the space, and also as ssd's aren't always that good at writing lots of data (assuming a standard mlc drive)
[15:03] <mfa298> if you're window manager is getting swapped out your OS is doing something very wrong - that's going to be an active process most of the time
[15:04] <mfa298> s/you're/your/
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[15:06] Nick change: ambmon -> Laurenceb_
[15:06] <Laurenceb_> hi
[15:06] <Laurenceb_> that failed badly
[15:06] <Laurenceb_> i killed the terminal window with the metacity session
[15:07] <Laurenceb_> now i can even get keyboard input
[15:07] <Laurenceb_> any idea how i can fix this?
[15:07] <Randomskk> lol
[15:08] <mfa298> if you can get to a console it might be possible to restart metacity there
[15:08] <Randomskk> ctrl+alt+f1 to get to a vtty
[15:08] <Laurenceb_> hmm good idea
[15:08] <Randomskk> then run metacity
[15:08] <zyp> you probably have to set DISPLAY first if you try that
[15:08] <mfa298> you might need to run "export DISPLAY=:0.0" first in the vtty
[15:08] <zyp> yep
[15:08] <mfa298> assumning /bin/bash or /bin/sh as the shell
[15:09] <Laurenceb_> then whats the metacity command again?
[15:09] <mfa298> might be worth sticking "nohup" in front of the metacity command as well
[15:10] <zyp> I wouldn't worry about that
[15:10] <Laurenceb_> metacity --replace &
[15:10] <Laurenceb_> i see
[15:10] <zyp> just get metacity started, sort out your work and save, then reboot
[15:10] <Laurenceb_> metacity:ERROR:core/prefs.c:2495:meta_prefs_get_workspace_name: assertion failed: (workspace_names[i] != NULL)
[15:11] <DanielRichman> did you set DISPLAY ?
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> yes
[15:11] <DanielRichman> & export it?
[15:12] <Laurenceb_> yes
[15:12] <mfa298> might also need something being done with xauthority / xauth
[15:12] <Laurenceb_> actually maybe it worked
[15:12] <Laurenceb_> it doesnt quit
[15:12] <zyp> good
[15:12] <DanielRichman> ah, cool. ctrl-alt-f7 back to your x session
[15:12] <Laurenceb_> without DISPLAY it quits
[15:12] <fsphil> makes sense
[15:12] <DanielRichman> maybe f8
[15:12] <mfa298> that makes sense
[15:12] <DanielRichman> just guess
[15:12] <zyp> go save your work then
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[15:13] <fsphil> I need to get more memory for my own
[15:13] <Laurenceb_> oops
[15:13] <fsphil> is it worth getting ECC memory?
[15:13] <Laurenceb_> everythings gone
[15:14] <mfa298> probably not worth ECC,
[15:14] <mfa298> it's expensive and you need a suitable board.
[15:14] <Randomskk> maybe I should bump to 16GB
[15:14] <fsphil> my board can do it but yea it's more expensive
[15:14] <Randomskk> I wonder if I'm using all my available slots. think so
[15:14] <Laurenceb_> dunno what happened
[15:14] <Laurenceb_> its killed all the windows
[15:15] <Laurenceb_> brb
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[15:15] <Laurenceb> rebooted
[15:15] <Laurenceb> that sucks
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[15:16] <DanielRichman> perhaps starting and stopping metacity a few times made it unhappy...?
[15:16] <Laurenceb> something like that
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[15:17] <Randomskk> meh, £80 to get 16GB RAM
[15:17] <Randomskk> maybe not yet
[15:18] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:18] <Laurenceb> looks like i didnt lose anything important...
[15:20] <mfa298> that's always a good thing
[15:20] <fsphil> who's cheap for RAM? crucial are showing £40 for 4GB
[15:21] <Randomskk> ?!
[15:21] <Randomskk> ebuyer.com
[15:21] <fsphil> it's older memory
[15:21] <Randomskk> is about £20 for a 4GB DIMM
[15:21] <Randomskk> ah
[15:21] <mfa298> for the bits I've got recently I've found crucial to be fairly good,
[15:21] <fsphil> my motherboard is 5 years old
[15:21] <mfa298> otherwise scan, ebuyer, novatech
[15:21] <fsphil> ebuyer have stupid carriage charges for here
[15:22] <mfa298> if you're on older ram it might be more expensive from most places.
[15:22] <fsphil> Free right up until the last page, then it's £15
[15:22] <fsphil> I could change the board but the CPU is still running very well
[15:24] <fsphil> no fun. largest module is 2GB, and the board has four slots
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[15:25] <griffonbot> Received email: Trevor Cousins "Re: [UKHAS] Radio to receive 70cm HAB transmissions"
[15:25] <Randomskk> 8GB is okay
[15:25] <fsphil> it has 4 atm
[15:25] <Randomskk> there's not much I do that really needs more
[15:25] <zyp> agreed
[15:25] <Randomskk> but sometimes there is :P
[15:26] <Randomskk> I'd probably benefit more from a new cpu really
[15:26] <Randomskk> this is a pretty old i5
[15:26] <zyp> even with 32G total I rarely pass 8G reserved
[15:26] <fsphil> mine's a Core 2 Quad Q6600
[15:26] <Randomskk> positively ancient :P
[15:26] <zyp> the main exception is when capturing usb traffic
[15:26] <fsphil> totally, but still very fast for me :)
[15:26] <Randomskk> zyp: sure. it's that occasional thing
[15:27] <Randomskk> processing huuuge datasets in python.
[15:27] <Randomskk> sure I could do it from/to disk and keep less in ram
[15:27] <zyp> for some reason the software only captures to a ram buffer, and it fills up fast, especially when looking at highspeed traffic
[15:27] <Randomskk> but damn is it ever easier to just do it all in memory
[15:27] <fsphil> who makes decent motherboards now then?
[15:27] <fsphil> since it's been 5 years since I got one
[15:27] <fsphil> I'm outta touch
[15:28] <zyp> I got an Asus
[15:28] <fsphil> my current one is asus
[15:28] <fsphil> hasn't give me any issues
[15:28] <fsphil> I had problems with asus support when another board failed
[15:29] <fsphil> they wanted everything shipped to holland
[15:43] <griffonbot> Received email: GMT "[UKHAS] Re: Radio to receive 70cm HAB transmissions"
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[16:28] <lz1dev> anyone here who has a tablet and a bit of time?
[16:33] <bigcw> what sort of tablet?
[16:33] <lz1dev> one with browser and internet :)
[16:36] <bigcw> i have an ipad?
[16:36] <lz1dev> excellent
[16:37] <mfa298> ive got an android tablet I can probaby try things out on
[16:41] <navrac> UPU - do you think steves delaminating is just a bit of cardboard for shipping?
[16:41] <UpuWork> I couldn't tell either tbh
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> I have n7
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[16:42] <SpeedEvil> I may be going to sleep though
[16:43] <fsphil> watching blade runner the other day, noticed the androids where model "nexus-6"
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[16:44] <fsphil> the 3g version is still sold out
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> I've sorta been pondering upgrading, and dropping the old one on eBay
[16:45] <fsphil> the nokia?
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> nexus 7 8g
[16:45] <fsphil> ah
[16:45] <fsphil> I sent mine back because of the screen flicker
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> not got that problem
[16:47] <fsphil> people seem to be running ubuntu on them. which is a bit odd
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> I have a broken one that I'm about to do that with
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> broken screen ones are inexpensive
[16:48] <fsphil> I can imagine
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> touchscreen that is
[16:51] <lz1dev> as long as its easy to replace on your own
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> I possible
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> im
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> well. if you could get the parts... but even with a dead touchscreen, it's a useful devicde
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> device
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[17:19] <arko> morning
[17:19] <x-f> evenin'
[17:20] <fsphil> hullo
[17:23] <anerDev> hello
[17:25] <fsphil> home time, yay
[17:26] <Randomskk> the best time :D
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[17:34] <arko> i need coffee..
[17:34] <arko> i still feel hungover from new year
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[17:49] <craag> Does anyone feel like taking a look at a PCB gerber and throwing some criticism my way? I haven't built one in CAD before.
[17:49] <craag> http://www.thecraag.com/files/CRAAG2v1r2draft.zip
[17:49] <arko> sure
[17:50] <craag> Thanks!
[17:51] <craag> I sent the first version to mitch at hackvana and have corrected the major issues (I think).
[17:52] <arko> crap, i cant open the gerbers on this machine
[17:52] <Upu> was it done in Eagle ?
[17:52] <zyp> I'll have a look
[17:52] <arko> i'll check it when i get home on my machine with Altium
[17:52] <craag> Upu: yes.
[17:52] <Randomskk> craag: could you upload a png?
[17:52] <Upu> can I see the original eagle files
[17:52] <Randomskk> haha
[17:53] <Randomskk> or just every single format ever
[17:53] <Randomskk> maybe a .doc would be good
[17:53] <craag> lol ok, gimme a mo
[17:53] <Randomskk> (I was joking about the .doc)
[17:54] <Randomskk> :( you have tracks not at 45 degree angles
[17:55] <Randomskk> if you turn on angle check in eagle it'l highlight them when you drc
[17:55] <Randomskk> it's not a huuuuge issue but it's a bit sloppy
[17:55] <craag> Ok, I hadn't thought that would be an issue. Difficult to machine?
[17:55] <Upu> Tracker addiction ... http://i.imgur.com/S0HpS.jpg
[17:56] <Randomskk> no, just looks sad
[17:56] <Randomskk> Upu: sure you've got enough/ :P
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[17:56] <number10> you only had one yesterday Upu - I wonder what you spent time doing today
[17:56] <Upu> it is getting a bit silly if I'm honest
[17:56] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:57] <zyp> top: http://bin.jvnv.net/f/mryyy.png bottom: http://bin.jvnv.net/f/8gGJ8.png
[17:57] <craag> PNG: http://i.imgur.com/IBCSo.png
[17:58] <number10> you have more than double the amount of trackers that you have sent balloons up so far - are you planning a balloon fest this year
[17:58] <zyp> craag, a bunch of very weird angles there
[17:58] <Upu> GPS antenna routed under module (bad) and at 90' (also not recommended)
[17:58] <Randomskk> some silk labels describing pinouts would be recommended
[17:58] <Gadget-Mac> Upu: You around for a quick pm ?
[17:59] <Upu> Yup
[17:59] <craag> zyp: Yeah, I didn't think angles would be an issue at all. I am now educated.
[17:59] <zyp> not sure they would be a real issue
[17:59] <Randomskk> ground planes a bit broken but well stitched so probably not a huge concern
[17:59] <zyp> it just isn't very esthetically pleasing :)
[17:59] <Randomskk> if you can it's nice to get all the signals on one layer so you can dedicate a whole layer to ground (as far as possible)
[18:00] <zyp> also, I would suggest tenting the vias
[18:00] <Randomskk> all my objections so far are more on making useful PCBs and best practices than any manufacturing / technical issues
[18:00] <Randomskk> silk labels are good
[18:00] <zyp> i.e. not having holes in mask over them
[18:00] <Randomskk> tenting vias is a good point. eagle can do that for you
[18:00] <zyp> yep
[18:00] <Randomskk> you might want to increase the separation between ground plane and the GPS and TX antenna traces
[18:00] <Randomskk> (or just cut back the ground plane from those areas)
[18:00] <craag> Tenting - ok I'll check that out, have heard of that before but didn't realise you set it in eagle.
[18:01] <Randomskk> and perhaps thicken up the TX antenna trace
[18:01] <zyp> craag, you set the minimum size somewhere in design rules, and then eagle would not make holes in mask for vias smaller than that size
[18:02] <craag> Randomskk: Ok, had some alignment issues with silk labels so took them out rather than trying to fix them.
[18:02] <craag> Rgr on the traces, and the GPS right-angle.
[18:02] <zyp> silk labels is not so important and tends to turn into a mess on dense boards
[18:03] <Randomskk> for components yes
[18:03] <Randomskk> but for connectors, handy
[18:03] <zyp> yes
[18:03] <mattbrejza> you might want to move the decoupling caps right up to the AVR/radio
[18:03] <mattbrejza> i can only see one near the avr
[18:04] <Upu> consider yourself peer reviewed :)
[18:04] <mattbrejza> near - as in <~1mm
[18:04] <craag> mattbrejza: Ok, thanks.
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[18:04] <craag> Hmm, gonna be tricky! I'll give it a go.
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[18:04] <craag> Upu: Indeed!
[18:04] <Upu> if you want to mail me the eagle files I'll check those out for any silly mistakes too
[18:04] <Upu> I know I've made enough
[18:04] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/eaiEM.png <- on my last board I left out all the component labels, but added labels for the non-obvious connectors
[18:04] <mattbrejza> you only need one more nearer the AVR tbh
[18:05] <Upu> thats just scary zyp
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[18:06] <Randomskk> zyp: yup. buttons, polarity on power connectors, but otherwise...
[18:06] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/wombat.png
[18:06] <Randomskk> not really much space for silk labels when you have a lot of 0402s
[18:06] <craag> mattbrejza: Ok. I made sure there was a lot of caps on the board in total, plenty more than my ugly-bug designs!
[18:07] <craag> Thanks all for taking time to look and giving advice!
[18:07] <mattbrejza> positioning is quite important, having three large ones at the bottom not near anything isnt really doing much more than just one
[18:08] <Adam012> Hi all, I'm filling out a CAA NOTAM application and have noticed that it is a little out of date. Do we need to attach a scanned OS map or will a jpg of googlemaps do?
[18:08] <craag> mattbrejza: The big ones are electrolytics, I put pads for more than I thought I'd need.
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[18:09] <mattbrejza> oh ok, i thought they were big ceramics
[18:09] <craag> Upu: Thank you very much, I'll fix most of the stuff that's been mentioned and then email you the files. :)
[18:10] <craag> Might be a few days...
[18:10] <zyp> craag, also, I don't see a board outline in any of the gerbers
[18:10] <Upu> nps
[18:11] <craag> zyp: Hmm, good point, I assumed that was a quirk of the viewers.
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[18:12] <zyp> craag, and your vias look rather huge, are you sure you don't want to reduce the size of them?
[18:12] <craag> Lol, forgot the board outline file..
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[18:12] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, do you have a moment?
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[18:13] <craag> zyp: I did think they looked big, wasn't sure if that was normal, I'll look that up, cheers.
[18:14] <zyp> Upu, it's not fun if it's not a bit scary ;)
[18:17] <craag> 'stop' vias with no drill == tented vias?
[18:17] <Randomskk> no
[18:18] <Randomskk> still definitely want drill
[18:18] <craag> ah ok
[18:18] <zyp> craag, Masks -> Limit
[18:18] <Upu> craag
[18:18] <Upu> https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qqwpvg7nn9ews3/Hackvana.dru
[18:18] <Upu> stick in dru folder
[18:18] <Upu> err
[18:19] <Upu> yes DRU
[18:19] <Upu> then do tools -> DRC
[18:19] <Upu> select that
[18:19] <Upu> then click apply
[18:19] <Upu> and cancel
[18:19] <Upu> your vias will be tented
[18:19] <zyp> why cancel? run it.
[18:19] <Upu> well run it eventually
[18:19] <zyp> :p
[18:19] <craag> Upu: Awesome, thanks!
[18:20] <Upu> but to tent the vias that sets the various options
[18:20] <Upu> its the green stuff (?) over the top of the via so its not exposed
[18:20] <zyp> I keep running DRC all the way through routing a board so I don't suddenly find that I've painted myself into a corner
[18:20] <Upu> brain has failed whats the green stuff called ? :)
[18:20] <zyp> solder stop mask
[18:20] <craag> soldermask?
[18:20] <Upu> probably
[18:20] <Upu> that stuff
[18:21] <Upu> vias below a certain diameter have that over them rather than being exposed
[18:21] <Upu> 0.5mm I think
[18:21] <Upu> Hackvana go down to 0.3mm vias
[18:21] <Upu> afk
[18:21] <Randomskk> zyp: this is why I like kicad for example
[18:21] <Randomskk> it won't let me violate DRC when making the board
[18:21] <Randomskk> you can't place tracks that violate DRC. or vias. or parts.
[18:22] <zyp> that sounds awfully restrictive
[18:22] <Randomskk> you can turn it off, obviously
[18:22] <Randomskk> but why would you?
[18:22] <Dark3D> Upu: Thank you so much for the ava.lbr. Saved me mucho time!
[18:22] <Randomskk> you're doing the same thing by constantly running the DRC to check you don't violate
[18:23] <zyp> Randomskk, yes, but I temporarily violate the rules all the time when working with the board
[18:23] <Randomskk> fe
[18:23] <zyp> when moving a group of traces one by one they are often overlapping in some way until all are moved
[18:26] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, do you have a moment?
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[18:55] <Upu> hi Lunar_Lander back for a few mins now
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[18:55] <Upu> you know I'm sure whatever your question is you could ask it on here
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> OK just wanted to say that I tried out hardcoding several latitudes/longitudes/altitudes and the program showed those OK in the radiostring
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> also now with 50 bauds, there is only a small gap between where the balloon is actually transmitting
[18:56] <Upu> ok good
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> it takes 22 seconds between string starts
[18:56] <Upu> 50 baud might be easier for remote listeners
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> and I would assume that the pause inbetween is 2 seconds
[18:56] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[18:56] <fsphil> unless you've a reason too go faster, use 50
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> also the cutdown now uses a 0.3 mm Kanthal A wire, about 5.2 cm in length (IIRC)
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> that works well
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> even gets slightly orange with fresh ultimate lithiums
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> I use three of those, they had 5.2 V on that test
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> later on I measured them to have 4.8V and when the wire was on, the voltage dropped to 3.2V
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[19:19] <fsphil> I suspect storm will be on the ground by now
[19:20] <arko> eroomde: http://i.imgur.com/KtQJq.gif
[19:20] <fsphil> if it did survive the day it's probably over china by now
[19:20] <number10> how long was battery expected to last fsphil
[19:21] <fsphil> at least four days number10
[19:21] <fsphil> even if it was transmitting it's way out of range of anyone
[19:22] <fsphil> we need stations in Kazakhstan :)
[19:22] <daveake> :)
[19:22] <number10> or need to go west
[19:22] <fsphil> indeed
[19:22] <fsphil> which I didn't think was possible until recently
[19:22] <daveake> It's probably gone then, unless it creates an international incident :)
[19:22] <fsphil> yea I suspect it'll never bee seen again
[19:22] <fsphil> -e
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[19:23] <fsphil> makes a chance from yorkshire though :)
[19:23] <number10> I have pico to launch with little insulation, not much battery life and no rfm recovery code
[19:23] <fsphil> oooh do the rfm bit
[19:23] <fsphil> it's simple
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[19:24] <number10> I did it in a hurry for xmas so its all wrapped up
[19:24] <fsphil> I don't think it would have made any difference in my case
[19:24] <fsphil> aah
[19:25] <EspacioCercano> Hello& happy 2013 everyone :)
[19:25] <fsphil> hiya EspacioCercano
[19:25] <fsphil> and this remains to be seen :)
[19:25] <arko> who do i talk to get on spacenearus for a test?
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[19:26] <fsphil> I think you just need a flight doc arko
[19:26] <arko> flight doc?
[19:27] <fsphil> http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload/
[19:27] <arko> huzah
[19:27] <fsphil> might not even need that, could just require a payload doc
[19:27] <arko> coolio
[19:27] <EspacioCercano> I'm about to do a flight test, so I was wondering& should I ask for any particular quality or purity regarding the helium to buy? I assume the one for party balloons is not good enough :)
[19:27] <fsphil> I'm not sure if spacenear requires the flight doc, something tells me it doesn't
[19:27] <RocketBoy> hey number10 - good work on picking up XABEN40 yesterday - it certainly took the heat off having to track it myself - cheers
[19:28] <daveake> arko You just need a payload doc for testing
[19:28] <daveake> Do the flight doc for the, erm, flight
[19:28] <fsphil> a testflight doc might be handy
[19:29] <fsphil> then spacenear can clear them after a few minutes automatically
[19:29] <arko> cool
[19:29] <arko> wait
[19:29] <arko> im in the US using APRS
[19:29] <arko> how does that work?
[19:29] <daveake> You need some magic then
[19:29] <fsphil> there is a script that can be run during the flight
[19:29] <daveake> There's a script to send aprs --> sacenear
[19:29] <fsphil> it needs to be setup by one of the habhub guys
[19:30] <arko> gotcha
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[19:31] <number10> thats OK RocketBoy - I just happen to have been tuned to the exact frequency by chance :)
[19:33] <daveake> An impressively early sentence you got there"
[19:33] <daveake> !
[19:34] <number10> I got 1/2 the previous - no idea how
[19:34] <number10> as I didnt have the watson up
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[19:50] <EspacioCercano> Sorry guys, not sure if you got my question& I'm about to do a flight test, so should I require any particular quality or purity level regarding the helium I'm going to buy? I assume the one used for party balloons is not good enough, because it seems to be cheaper.
[19:51] <Randomskk> the only real concern is that some party balloon gas is cut with significant (10 to 40%) air
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[19:51] <Randomskk> which will give you less lift and so potentially mess up the calculations
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[19:51] <Randomskk> however it does _work_ and might be a lot cheaper
[19:52] <EspacioCercano> hmm& I see& interesting
[19:54] <bigcw> interesting question, thanks!
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, Upu suggested to me to put several hardcoded values into the GPS code to try and test what the arduino would make of it
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> and that worked today
[19:55] <daveake> good
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> also the cutdown went on when I hardcoded 21000 m as an altitude
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> and the criterion was 20000 m
[19:56] <daveake> good
[19:57] <daveake> Did you try some values that might cause errors? Like, altitude over 32768m
[19:57] <daveake> ?
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> no, good idea
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> will do that tomorrow
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> I tried the lat/long with negative values and very small values and so on though
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[21:19] <griffonbot> Received email: Trevor Cousins "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Fogging Camera Lenses - Problem?"
[21:23] <costyn> is Trevor ever here on IRC?
[21:24] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Fogging Camera Lenses - Problem?"
[21:24] <Upu> I don't know but I just replied
[21:25] <costyn> I just grin at his responses... seems like he's in a hurry and not always getting informed and making hasty decisions
[21:27] <Randomskk> that's one way of looking at it
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[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, I also got two SAFT batteries today which I bought off ebay and now I don't know any good use for it given that the current draw is so small
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:43] <Upu> well done :)
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> lol yea
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> some 8 euros well spent
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> as well as for the 0.6 mm diameter Kanthal
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> which is hard to bend and has a low resistance per meter and is not good for the cutdown
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> but as I said, the 0.3 mm diameter one is good
[21:44] <Upu> Nichrome ?
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> yea, it's an alloy of Iron, Chrome and Aluminum
[21:44] <Upu> ok
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> I got nichrome as well but it is a 0.2 mm diameter wire
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[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> a bit too thin to work with it
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> I don't really think that it can like be kept in the screw terminal in case the cord pulls on the wire
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> on the kanthal website, look at Kanthal A
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> that is what I got
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> stupid question maybe
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> at sparkfun and so on you can easily get those JST sockets
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> where do you get the plugs that they like put on lipolys?
[21:49] <Upu> no idea try ebay
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[21:51] <mattbrejza> or farnell
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:53] <Upu> Somewhere buried on the wiki is a connectors page
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.ukhas.org.uk/guides:electrical_connectors
[21:54] <Upu> yep
[21:54] <Upu> if you do find any of those inline RC Helicopter style connectors would be interested
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[21:55] <Upu> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-Pcs-10cm-JST-Connector-Male-Plug-For-RC-BEC-Li-po-Battery-/170965408393?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item27ce551a89
[21:56] <Upu> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Sets-JST-170mm-connector-plug-For-RC-BEC-lipo-battery-UK-SELLER-A308-/320924043828?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item4ab8904a34
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> cool thanks
[21:59] <daveake> As it happens I ordered that very item yesterday
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> but he didn't deliver yet?
[22:02] <daveake> Ordered last night
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[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, yea so he probably delivers by tomorrow or fridaya
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> -a
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[22:52] <EspacioCercano> Has anyone here ever used Trackuino?
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[22:53] <lz1dev> i've build my arduino tracker
[22:53] <lz1dev> with some parts of trackuino
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[23:01] <EspacioCercano> lz1dev: did you use the Radiometrix HX1 version?
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[23:05] <Dark3D> EC: I have
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[23:10] <EspacioCercano> Dark3D: are you in Europe?
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[23:13] <Upu> Reminds me I sell the HX1 in US & OZ frequencies now
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[23:22] <lz1dev> EspacioCercano: yes, HX1
[23:22] <lz1dev> and yes, im in europe
[23:24] <EspacioCercano> lz1dev, Upu: we use a different standard frequency in Argentina, 144.930 MHz. I was wondering how the HX1 can be configured to use the right frequency.
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[23:26] <lz1dev> no
[23:27] <lz1dev> but there is a different version of the trasmitter for that frequency
[23:28] <lz1dev> wait 144,930
[23:28] <EspacioCercano> lz1dev: so there's no way to set one particular frequency?
[23:28] <lz1dev> are you sure?
[23:29] <lz1dev> i think if you peel away, the sticker
[23:29] <EspacioCercano> yes, that's the standard for Argentina
[23:29] <lz1dev> there is a potentiometer you can turn
[23:29] <lz1dev> to adjust the frequency
[23:29] <lz1dev> not sure if you get it to yours
[23:29] <EspacioCercano> well, that frequency seems to be within the range indicated on the sticker
[23:30] <lz1dev> yeh, but underneat there is the little x screw you can turn to adjust
[23:32] <lz1dev> EspacioCercano: are you sure its not 144.390 ?
[23:33] <lz1dev> just checked, its .930
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[23:37] <lz1dev> EspacioCercano: http://hexoc.com/u/ntx2-1.jpg
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[23:54] <EspacioCercano> lz1dev: it's the one with the cyan base on the right side?
[23:55] <arko> damn it
[23:55] <arko> this europe trip is getting expensive
[23:55] <arko> turns out international travel is really pricey
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[23:57] <fsphil> that it is
[23:58] <fsphil> worth it though
[23:59] <arko> im sure
[23:59] <arko> uk, germany, and austria
[00:00] --- Thu Jan 3 2013