highaltitude.log.20121227

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[00:09] <DrLuke> upu: datasheet and library links for the sarantel antenna in your shop lead to nowhere
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[00:33] <arko> Darkside: you around?
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[00:41] <arko> aww :( http://www.theverge.com/2012/12/26/3805538/landsat-5-longest-running-usgs-observational-satellite-shutting-down
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[03:45] <Darkside> arko: am now
[03:59] <arko> hey!
[03:59] <arko> so i was gonna ask
[03:59] <arko> before launching you use the habhub predictor right?
[04:00] <arko> what kind of a radius would you give it's accuracy?
[04:00] <arko> in general
[04:00] <arko> i know it's not 100ft and not 100miles
[04:00] <Darkside> well
[04:00] <Darkside> if the launch goes as planned, correct ascent rate, descent rte, and burst at hte right time
[04:00] <Darkside> (which is a lot easier with a cutdown)
[04:01] <Darkside> then a prediction run right before launch can be accurate to about 20km
[04:01] <Darkside> sometimes less
[04:01] <Darkside> thats what we've seen anyway
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[04:46] <arko> 20km radius? damn
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[04:47] <Darkside> arko: we still use the live predictions in the car though
[04:47] <arko> yeah, i noticed last time
[04:47] <Darkside> but the prediction made at launch is a good nindicator of where we should be driving to
[04:47] <arko> does that work with aprs in the us?
[04:47] <Darkside> dont think so
[04:47] <arko> ok that makes sense
[04:47] <Dan-K2VOL1> you can use BallTrack in the car with aprs if you have it all set up right
[04:47] <Darkside> you'd have to wrote your own code to take data from either a TNC or APRS-IS and plot it, draw predictions, etc
[04:48] <Darkside> Dan-K2VOL1: i guess your system does that?
[04:48] <Dan-K2VOL1> http://www.eoss.org/balsoft.htm
[04:48] <Dan-K2VOL1> no
[04:48] <Dan-K2VOL1> well, I mean balltrack isn't mine
[04:48] <Darkside> oh
[04:48] <Dan-K2VOL1> the version that will decode from your TNC is Balloon Track for windows
[04:49] <Darkside> any idea how his predictions compare to the CUSF predictor?
[04:49] <Dan-K2VOL1> it will try to make a prediction based on the ascent winds observed by the balloon itself
[04:49] <Darkside> ooh
[04:49] <Darkside> ok
[04:49] <Darkside> thats useful
[04:49] <Dan-K2VOL1> yeah, it's all offline
[04:49] <Darkside> the CUSF predictor won't do that
[04:49] <Darkside> it just uses the wind data, which isn't always valid as it comes into land
[04:50] <Darkside> we usually just use wind data from, you know, looking outside the car as it comes into land
[04:50] <Darkside> would be useful to be able to make a GFS file from the ascent data
[04:51] <Darkside> like, fake up a GFS file for a certain area, just using the data from the ascent phase of the flight
[04:51] <Dan-K2VOL1> yeah just a single radiosonde windplot
[04:51] <Dan-K2VOL1> good only for the local area
[04:52] <Darkside> depend on the distance the balloon lands away, it would probably be good enough for that too
[04:53] <Darkside> i woner how hard it would be to generate a GFS file..
[04:57] <Elijah_> We've used that a few times, it's pretty close
[04:58] <Elijah_> (the balltracker that updates based on observed wind)
[04:58] <Darkside> hmm
[04:58] <Dan-K2VOL1> yeah I'll second that
[04:58] <Darkside> it looks like i should be able to generate the dat files the CUSF predictor uses pretty easily
[04:58] <Darkside> liiks really simple actually
[04:58] <Elijah_> we also have an onboard prediction that runs using a similar idea
[04:58] <Elijah_> sends the predicted landing down after burst under a different SSID
[04:59] <Dan-K2VOL1> I've seen that on APRS a few times too
[04:59] <Elijah_> It's nice when you're out chasing and just have a D710
[04:59] <Elijah_> or the like
[05:00] <Darkside> well, i think i could easilt write something that generates a dat file from the ascent data
[05:00] <Dan-K2VOL1> nice darkside
[05:00] <Darkside> seriously, the format the CUSF predictor uses is very very simple
[05:01] <Darkside> a bit of preamble, then lines of triplets: geopotential height [gpm], u-component wind [m/s], v-component wind [m/s]
[05:01] <Elijah_> interesting
[05:01] <Elijah_> how does he predict the descent rate after burst, do you know?
[05:02] <Elijah_> since that seems to be what limits the acurracy on ours, getting that descent rate profile right
[05:02] <Dan-K2VOL1> that's always been manually entered in everything I've seen, you can find calculators based on parachute size
[05:02] <Darkside> theres some simple profile that works
[05:02] <Darkside> given a descent rate at a certain altitude, you can work out the descent rate at groun dlevel
[05:02] <Darkside> and the profile for it
[05:02] <Elijah_> Yeah
[05:02] <Elijah_> Any particular one you guys like?
[05:03] <Darkside> uhm
[05:03] <Elijah_> Currently is uses a 4rth order poly best-fit to a descent profile. Trouble is that changes based on the parachute we're flying and how much weight is on it
[05:03] <Darkside> yeah
[05:03] <Darkside> this is just using a density profile
[05:04] <Darkside> hell this one is simple
[05:04] <Darkside> sqrt((density/1.22)*v^2)
[05:04] <Darkside> density being the density at the altitude where the velocity v is valid
[05:04] <Elijah_> Hmmm, I guess that seems like it might work, although the velocity is much faster at the top
[05:05] <Darkside> public static double seaLevelDescentRate(double v, int h) {
[05:05] <Darkside> double rho = getDensity(h);
[05:05] <Darkside> return Math.sqrt((rho / 1.22) * Math.pow(v, 2));
[05:05] <Darkside> }
[05:05] <Elijah_> aah yeah
[05:05] <Darkside> the getDensity function is scary
[05:05] <Elijah_> hehe
[05:05] <Elijah_> where are you finding this at?
[05:05] <Darkside> this is code another guy in our group wrote
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[05:05] <Darkside> i think he got the atmosphere model from somewhere else
[05:05] <Darkside> but i'm not sure
[05:06] <Elijah_> aah ok
[05:06] <Dan-K2VOL1> the 1976 standard atmosphere is a good reference
[05:06] <Elijah_> I'd be interested in seeing that if you don't mind sharing, been trying to think of a way to make this more acurrate
[05:06] <Darkside> Elijah_: i'd have to check with terry
[05:06] <Elijah_> sure
[05:06] <Darkside> it's his code, and it isn't open source
[05:07] <Darkside> our offline predictor is our secret sauce :P
[05:07] <Darkside> which isn't really that secret
[05:07] <Elijah_> lol
[05:07] <Elijah_> Yeah
[05:07] <Darkside> but works incredibly well for us
[05:07] <Darkside> it's how we;ve been able to get so many videos of the balloons landing
[05:07] <Darkside> paylosds*
[05:07] <Elijah_> We've tried to keep our stuff GPL as much as possible, mostly limited by people taking the time to actually post it online
[05:08] <Darkside> this code has limited use to people outside australia
[05:08] <Darkside> as it's tied into a mapping program called OziPlotter
[05:08] <Elijah_> Yeah, I love it when you can be close enough to observe the landing
[05:08] <Darkside> which, as the name suggests, is designed to work with australian topographic maps :P
[05:09] <Darkside> it is windows only rhough, which sucks a bit
[05:09] <Elijah_> I don't want a turnkey solution, just interested in improving our onboard prediction calculator ;-)
[05:09] <Elijah_> hehe
[05:10] <Elijah_> Some of the guys here just use aprs.fi, which actually works pretty well as long as there's 3G
[05:10] <Darkside> we really need it as we have the problem of going out of 3G range a lot
[05:11] <Elijah_> Yeah, that's an issue here in the mountains too
[05:11] <Darkside> also we only use APRS as a backup
[05:11] <Elijah_> The best thing I've seen for offline maps is UIview with the pmap setup
[05:11] <Darkside> our primary is the 70cm RTTY telemetry
[05:11] <Elijah_> Right, I forget that
[05:11] <Darkside> in general we only use APRS so we can use our handhelds to direct us to the payload once it's landed
[05:11] <Darkside> <3 my TH-D72
[05:12] <Darkside> but we really only fly APRS if we have expensive payloads
[05:12] <Darkside> where a backup is required
[05:12] <Elijah_> Yes, those are pretty awesome
[05:12] <Elijah_> I see
[05:12] <Darkside> in general though, the 70cm telemetry worjks great, and we can just use a 3 element yagi and a Icom IC-R10 to DF to it once it's landed
[05:13] <Elijah_> Do you fly multiple RTTY beacons?
[05:14] <Elijah_> we usually fly at least 2 APRS beacons
[05:14] <Darkside> kid of
[05:14] <Darkside> our cutdown units also transmit RTTY, but don't have position information
[05:14] <Darkside> just the battery voltage of the cutdown unit, and temerature
[05:14] <Elijah_> oh... and you just DF that if necessary?
[05:14] <Darkside> yeah, we could as a backup
[05:15] <Darkside> i can command the cutdown to go into a morse code mode
[05:15] <Darkside> which is easier to DF
[05:15] <Darkside> we've only had a telemetry payload fail once, and that was on the ground before launch
[05:15] <Elijah_> How often do they transmit?
[05:15] <Darkside> the cutdown payload transmits a 300 baud RTTY burst every 20 seconds or so
[05:16] <Darkside> the telemetry payloads transmits continuously
[05:16] <Dan-K2VOL1> Elijah, I have the standard atmosphere document if you'd like it
[05:16] <Elijah_> oh ok, gotcha
[05:16] <Elijah_> dan, that'd be an interesting read if you don't mind
[05:16] <Elijah_> can you email?
[05:16] <Elijah_> or if it's on a site somewhere that works too
[05:16] <Dan-K2VOL1> I'll post a link, just a sec
[05:16] <Elijah_> k
[05:16] <Elijah_> Darkside, what do you use for antennas?
[05:17] <Elijah_> The few failures we've had are usually related to antennas breaking
[05:17] <Darkside> 1/4 wave with wire groundplane
[05:17] <Darkside> the main element is usually made of some kind of springy material
[05:17] <Darkside> some were spring steel, some are wire ropw
[05:17] <Darkside> rope*
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[05:17] <Elijah_> I'd be interested to see how you mechanically construct those, we've flown those a lot but they always seem to break after a few flights
[05:18] <Darkside> this is for 70cm btw
[05:18] <Darkside> for APRS we use a different technique
[05:18] <Elijah_> How does the center element attach to the RF connector?
[05:18] <Darkside> still a ground plane antenna, but for the main element we use SMA handheld antennas
[05:18] <Elijah_> just soldered? Or some kind of strain relief?
[05:18] <Darkside> the nice flexible ones
[05:19] <Elijah_> aah
[05:19] <Darkside> theres a bit of strain relief i believe
[05:19] <Darkside> hmm i have a picture of the duplxer board somewhere..
[05:19] <Darkside> hold on
[05:19] <Elijah_> k
[05:20] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/5KpxV.jpg
[05:20] <Darkside> that was just a test
[05:20] <Darkside> but you can get the idea from that
[05:20] <Elijah_> interesting... on a PCboard right?
[05:20] <Darkside> pcb with a SMA socket in the centre, which the main radiating antenna connects to
[05:20] <Darkside> 4 pads for ground plane wires
[05:21] <Darkside> or rods, depending on what you want to do
[05:21] <Darkside> on the other side is a 2m/70cm duplexer, with 2 input ports
[05:21] <Dan-K2VOL1> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/181066/StandardAtmosphere/1976%20NOAA%20US%20Standard%20Atmosphere%201976.pdf
[05:21] <Dan-K2VOL1> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/181066/StandardAtmosphere/2005%20Virginia%20Tech%20Standard%20Atmosphere.pdf
[05:21] <Elijah_> right.... and that survives landings OK?
[05:21] <Dan-K2VOL1> the first one is the original standard publication
[05:21] <Dan-K2VOL1> the second link is a powerpoint explaining it :-)
[05:21] <Darkside> Elijah_: yeah, on nwer payloads that is build into the foam a bit more
[05:21] <Darkside> the whip antenna bends nicely
[05:21] <Elijah_> Yeah, I have one similar to that on my VX-3
[05:21] <Darkside> the ground plane rods can get a bit bent, but you use something you can bend back if needed
[05:22] <Darkside> we did destroy one by dragging it through a tree
[05:22] <Elijah_> Dan: thanks, downloading
[05:22] <Darkside> well, destroyed th eground plane anyway
[05:22] <Darkside> the whip was fine, the payload was fine
[05:22] <Elijah_> Yeah, that's fairly severe punishment though
[05:22] <Darkside> but the ground rods got pulled off the pcb
[05:22] <Darkside> yeah
[05:22] <Elijah_> What do you use for ground rods, music wire or something?
[05:23] <Darkside> depends
[05:23] <Darkside> some are brass rod
[05:23] <Darkside> some are just single core wire
[05:23] <Elijah_> aah ok
[05:23] <Darkside> brass rod for the aprs ones
[05:23] <Elijah_> brass rod seems like a good idea, be fairly bendable and easy to solder
[05:23] <Darkside> and we don't use a full 1/4 wave
[05:23] <Darkside> thats just ridiculous
[05:24] <Darkside> i did that once
[05:24] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/6mkrn.jpg
[05:24] <Elijah_> don't use a 1/4 wave on the ground plane rods?
[05:24] <Darkside> well, a 1/4 wave ground plane for 2m is pretty damn big
[05:24] <Darkside> and prone to damage
[05:24] <Elijah_> yeah, for sure ;-)
[05:25] <Darkside> i think our ground rods are more like 20-30cm length
[05:25] <Elijah_> we tried that too, recently went to a jpole design and that seems a little more resilient so far
[05:25] <Darkside> yeah
[05:25] <Darkside> jpole is good
[05:25] <Darkside> can just hang it below the payload
[05:25] <Darkside> or above
[05:25] <Darkside> ribbon cable slim jims are good
[05:25] <Darkside> we use them on our crossband repeater
[05:26] <Elijah_> aah ok
[05:26] <Elijah_> The jpole is on our crossband, it seems to work OK
[05:27] <Elijah_> Long distance contacts have reported it fades a little as the packages are spinning though
[05:27] <Darkside> trying to find a pic of one of our aprs payloads
[05:27] <Darkside> they are very small
[05:27] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/pMNZN.jpg
[05:27] <Darkside> can kind of see it there
[05:27] <Darkside> on the far left
[05:28] <Darkside> http://vimeo.com/40771342#at=0
[05:28] <Darkside> that video has a bit of footage of the payloads near the end
[05:28] <Darkside> gives you a better idea of the size anyway
[05:29] <Elijah_> let me see...
[05:29] <Elijah_> nice
[05:29] <Darkside> we have a good filmographer on our team :P
[05:30] <Darkside> our videos usually turn out quite well
[05:30] <Elijah_> hehe, 'tis a good thing ;-)
[05:30] <Elijah_> I like that they're very lightweight, our lightest are still 14 oz or so
[05:31] <Darkside> mm, teh aprs payload is <80g or so
[05:31] <arko> dude awesome video
[05:31] <Darkside> Upu is working on something even lighter
[05:31] <Darkside> but yeah, our aprs payloads are a kind of fixed design
[05:32] <Darkside> MicroNut board, and a modification of the trackuino software to add in some support for telemetry packets and a few other things we use
[05:32] <Darkside> like changing the APRS path from ascent to descent
[05:32] <Darkside> effectively WIDE2-2 below 10km and WIDE1-1 above
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[05:34] <Darkside> arko: lots more where that came from
[05:34] <Darkside> check out the guys channel
[05:37] <Elijah_> that's a good idea
[05:37] <Elijah_> (changing the digi path)
[05:37] <Dan-K2VOL1> speak any french guys?
[05:38] <Elijah_> Ours downlink on nonstandard frequencies and then ground-based digipeaters bring the packets across to the APRS network
[05:40] <Darkside> Elijah_: the balloon gets into the digis bettwe than our cars do :P
[05:41] <Darkside> we've been toying with the idea of a flying digipeater
[05:41] <Darkside> for comms between cars
[05:41] <Darkside> but havent bothered yet
[05:41] <Darkside> instead we have a flying parrot repeater
[05:41] <Darkside> thats useful for coordination if we need to split up over long distances
[05:42] <Darkside> but usually the chase teams are within 2m simplex range, or at the very worst, 160m HF range
[05:42] <Elijah_> Yeah, we were trying to avoid stepping on other stations though, the APRS network in the phoenix area is pretty busy
[05:42] <Darkside> yeah, its not busy here :-)
[05:44] <Elijah_> http://i56.tinypic.com/ezmyi0.jpg
[05:44] <Elijah_> one of our older trackers built around a tinytrack
[05:44] <Darkside> oh god
[05:44] <Darkside> maxon modules
[05:44] <Darkside> HEAVY
[05:45] <Elijah_> hehe, yeah
[05:45] <Elijah_> what do you guys use for radios in your crossband?
[05:45] <Darkside> motorola GP328's
[05:45] <Darkside> stripped down
[05:45] <Elijah_> The maxons are nice and heavy duty though
[05:46] <Elijah_> pretty much indestructible
[05:46] <Darkside> yeah but you just don't need that much power for airborne APRS!
[05:46] <Elijah_> s/i/a/
[05:46] <Darkside> we use 300mW..
[05:46] <Elijah_> yeah
[05:46] <Darkside> we've had ducting paths of about 900km with 300mW..
[05:47] <Darkside> you've probable seen this: http://rfhead.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/aprs_payloads.jpg
[05:48] <Darkside> but thats our aprs tracker units
[05:49] <arko> wow
[05:49] <Elijah_> aah yeah
[05:49] <Elijah_> nice and small though
[05:49] <arko> darkside: which one are you in the video?
[05:49] <Darkside> arko: uhm
[05:49] <Elijah_> what RF module is on there?
[05:49] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ST8_0978.jpg
[05:49] <Darkside> arko: 4th from left
[05:50] <Darkside> google shirt
[05:50] <arko> oh!
[05:50] <Darkside> Elijah_: Radiometrix HX1
[05:50] <arko> good to know, saw your guys talk at linuxcon
[05:50] <Elijah_> aah ok
[05:50] <Elijah_> nice
[05:50] <Darkside> arko: heh
[05:51] <Elijah_> brb
[05:51] <arko> i love the idea of a cutdown
[05:51] <Darkside> we don't do a launch without one now
[05:51] <arko> just seems like a lot of work for the second launch attempt
[05:51] <Darkside> we might not fire it, but it's good to have it there anyway
[05:51] <arko> makes sense
[05:51] <Dan-K2VOL1> yeah
[05:52] <Darkside> and we've found the uplink to be reliable
[05:52] <Darkside> we migh tnot always be able to ping it with 500mw, particularly if we're below the payload
[05:52] <Darkside> but we can always dial up the power, or use a yagi
[05:53] <arko> nice
[05:53] <arko> do you send it some string?
[05:53] <Darkside> yeah
[05:53] <Darkside> theres a sequence of commands to arm it, then to turn on the nichrome for a certain amout of time
[05:53] <arko> the radiometrix decodes back?
[05:53] <Darkside> and i can adjust the burn time
[05:53] <arko> i didnt realize that
[05:53] <Darkside> we don't use radiometrix on the cutdowns
[05:54] <Darkside> we use RFM22Bs
[05:54] <arko> wow
[05:54] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/?page_id=2332
[05:54] <Darkside> video on this page
[05:54] <arko> that's pretty awesome
[05:54] <arko> yeah, just watched that
[05:55] <Darkside> hehe
[05:55] <Darkside> i use 500 baud GFSK uplink packets
[05:55] <Darkside> which fit in a 3khz bandwidth - so i can transmit them from a normal amateur radio
[05:55] <Darkside> in sideband mode
[05:55] <Darkside> that lets me boost the power quite significantly
[05:55] <Darkside> so i basically play recorded packets
[05:56] <Darkside> eventually i want to be able to generate packets on the fly
[05:56] <Darkside> i've been working on a 'boom box' - a box that contains one of the payloads, talking to my laptop over USB serial
[05:56] <Darkside> and a 5W amplifier
[05:56] <arko> wow
[05:57] <arko> 5W
[05:57] <Darkside> this is on the ground
[05:57] <arko> oh ok
[05:58] <Darkside> damn, cant find the pic o fit
[05:58] <Darkside> it has a huge red button, marked 'boom'
[05:58] <Darkside> that triggers the unit to send a packet
[05:58] <Darkside> :P
[06:00] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/BXJQr.jpg
[06:00] <Darkside> there it is
[06:00] <arko> Darkside: you look like a friend of mine
[06:00] <arko> https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/105401119527734619979/albums/5623830043728044337/5789244927042169954
[06:00] <arko> dude
[06:00] <arko> that box
[06:00] <arko> hahaa
[06:00] <Darkside> its intentionally over the top
[06:01] <Darkside> usb cable comes in on the left, that plugs into my laptop
[06:01] <arko> haha
[06:01] <Darkside> which lets me set the uplinked packets contents
[06:01] <arko> i dig it
[06:01] <Darkside> then i 'arm' it, which turns on the PA
[06:01] <Darkside> then press boom to send the packet
[06:01] <Darkside> eventually i'll have some dials to choose a number of predefined packets
[06:01] <Darkside> so i don't have to have it tied to a computer
[06:01] <arko> hab in style
[06:01] <Darkside> you have seen our chase cars, right? :P
[06:02] <Darkside> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2012-10-07_Horus_29/
[06:02] <arko> yeah
[06:02] <arko> last one
[06:02] <arko> i was on irc with you
[06:02] <Darkside> heh
[06:03] <Darkside> horus 30... ahh yeah that was the tubesat launch
[06:03] <Darkside> man, i still need to write that one up
[06:03] <arko> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2012-10-07_Horus_29/Pages/10.html
[06:03] <Darkside> fff
[06:03] <arko> jesus
[06:03] <Darkside> shit, and horus 29
[06:03] <arko> that car looks like steven hawkings wheelchair
[06:03] <Darkside> lol
[06:03] <Darkside> which one
[06:03] <Darkside> the landcruiser?
[06:03] <arko> yeah
[06:03] <Darkside> the one i'm sitting in
[06:03] <Darkside> hehe
[06:03] <arko> yes
[06:03] <arko> crazy
[06:04] <Darkside> i'm the navigator / radio operator for that car
[06:04] <Darkside> its good fun
[06:04] <arko> http://pipe2.darklomax.org/pics/2012-10-07_Horus_29/Pages/12.html
[06:04] <Darkside> yu[p
[06:04] <arko> thats awesome
[06:04] <Darkside> that car is the best eqipped of the lot
[06:04] <Darkside> though the hilux is getting close
[06:05] <Darkside> the rav4 i a bit behind
[06:05] <arko> which gps antenna is that, on the mini board
[06:05] <Darkside> it doesn't have HF
[06:05] <Darkside> erm
[06:05] <Darkside> Sarantel one
[06:05] <Darkside> cant remember the model number, bit it's EOL
[06:05] <arko> damn it
[06:05] <arko> it's always EOL
[06:05] <Darkside> theres a newer one which is similar
[06:05] <Darkside> and is less prone to breaking
[06:06] <Darkside> we've found those sarantel antennas have a habit of not working after you drop them
[06:06] <Darkside> well, without padding :-)
[06:06] <arko> nice
[06:06] <arko> im working on my own version of exactly what you've got
[06:06] <arko> just for lulz
[06:06] <Darkside> lol
[06:06] <Dan-K2VOL1> night all
[06:06] <Darkside> a few people have done that :P
[06:06] <Darkside> Upu was th efirst
[06:06] <Darkside> night Dan-K2VOL1
[06:06] <arko> nigh Dan
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[06:07] <Darkside> i kept on giving Upu shit about his designs so he'd make them better :-)
[06:07] <arko> lol
[06:07] <Darkside> his most recent boards are very good
[06:07] <arko> i told you man, i would buy one
[06:07] <arko> even though it's open source, im like meh
[06:07] <Darkside> they aren't for sale
[06:07] <arko> i like to learn
[06:07] <Darkside> the micronut board isn't open source
[06:07] <arko> yeah i get that
[06:07] <Darkside> ;P
[06:08] <Darkside> i don't think any of the teeny trackers are open source
[06:08] <arko> hmm
[06:08] <Darkside> we'd prefer it if the barrier to entry was a bit higher than just being able to buy a lightweight trackert
[06:08] <arko> ?
[06:09] <Darkside> we'd prefer it if people designed their own trackers
[06:09] <Darkside> it gives whoever is launching more time to think about safety concerns
[06:09] <heathkid> heh
[06:09] <Darkside> theres a lot of people who might just try and stick an iphone on a balloon or something
[06:09] <Darkside> A) they probably wont get their payload back
[06:09] <heathkid> the "barrier to entry" is higher than you might think even *with* a tracker, balloon, and parachute...
[06:10] <Darkside> heh
[06:10] <arko> mm
[06:10] <arko> makes sense
[06:10] <heathkid> you've been doing this a while
[06:10] <heathkid> I'm still working on my first launch
[06:10] <Darkside> that we have
[06:10] <Darkside> we've spent a good 3 years getting to the point where we are now
[06:10] <Darkside> we're at the point where we can reliably launch, track and recover a payload
[06:10] <arko> heh, i believe it
[06:10] <Darkside> and usually get there before landing
[06:11] <Darkside> now we plan on getting into the more interesting payloads
[06:11] <Darkside> ATV, packet repeaters, whatnot
[06:11] <heathkid> I don't want it to take 3 years of experience to recover even my first payload
[06:12] <heathkid> so a LOT of reading, research, planning, etc.
[06:12] <Darkside> ATV on 70cm is osmething we've wanted to do for a while
[06:12] <heathkid> and just lurking here a lot (learn tons!)
[06:12] <Darkside> yep :P
[06:14] <Darkside> oh good, terry has done the hard part of the horus 29 writeup :-)
[06:14] <Darkside> (collatind all the launch data)
[06:14] <Darkside> now i need to write shit about it
[06:14] <Darkside> why did we do that launch anyway..
[06:15] <Darkside> i think it was just as a bit of fun
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[06:37] <Elijah_> back
[06:37] <Elijah_> for a few anyways, getting late here :P
[06:51] <Upu> morning
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[07:04] <x-f> monday morning
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[08:38] <arko> oh man scotch is awesome
[08:38] <arko> hard day of work, go to pub down the street
[08:38] <arko> drink
[08:39] <arko> stumble back to home
[08:39] <arko> irc
[08:39] <arko> woo!
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[08:43] <x-f> relevant hostname
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[08:48] <nosebleedkt> hi all
[08:48] <nosebleedkt> quick noob question
[08:48] <number10> morning
[08:48] <daveake> morning
[08:48] <nosebleedkt> i know the solution just forgot it
[08:48] <nosebleedkt> :)
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[08:48] <nosebleedkt> I have a 5v powered board
[08:48] <nosebleedkt> I feed my GPS with regulated 3v3
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[08:49] <nosebleedkt> however for tx/rx with AVR
[08:49] <nosebleedkt> do I need to place those resistors?
[08:49] <daveake> GPS Tx --> AVR Rx is direct
[08:49] <nosebleedkt> yes because AVR understand 3v3 as 1
[08:49] <nosebleedkt> but 5v on GPS Rx ?
[08:49] <daveake> AVR --> R1 --> GPS Rx --> R2 --> 0V
[08:50] <nosebleedkt> ok
[08:50] <nosebleedkt> R1 R2 10k ?
[08:50] <daveake> IIRC R1 = 3k3, R2 - 4k7
[08:50] <daveake> Well do the maths :)
[08:50] <nosebleedkt> dunno :P
[08:50] <nosebleedkt> but its ok i will find those values
[08:50] <nosebleedkt> i just wanted the circuitry
[08:51] <daveake> Well Vout = Vin * R2 / (R1+R2)
[08:51] <daveake> And you want Vout to be 3.3V with VIn 5V
[08:52] <nosebleedkt> thanks i'll do it later
[08:52] <nosebleedkt> need to go dentist,rip off 2 teeth :D
[08:52] <daveake> ouch
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[09:37] <kokey> heh, wish the office was always this quiet
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[09:43] <x-f> PE2G, i saw your webpage a while back when we talked - you're pro of tracking and recovering radiosondes, an impressively long list you have!
[09:47] <PE2G> Thanks. Alas, too sstrong upper winds since many days. All sondes land out of reach...
[09:50] <Darkside> what kind of sondes? RS92s?
[09:50] <PE2G> Yes, mainly, Sometimes a DFM-06
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[09:53] <Darkside> cool, these all digital sondes, with GPs?
[09:54] <PE2G> The DFM-06 has a built in GPS chip, the RS92 doesn't
[09:54] <Darkside> some of the RS92s do
[09:54] <Darkside> RS92SGPW
[09:55] <Darkside> but yeah, we mostly have analog sonde launches where i am (Adelaide, Australia)
[09:55] <Darkside> they're good fun to chase though
[09:55] <Darkside> good DFing practice
[09:56] <PE2G> Yes, but the actual GPS signal processing is done by the software on the ground : (SondeMonitor)
[09:56] <Darkside> yes
[09:56] <Darkside> we had a spate of vaisala digisonde launches here when they were testing a new wind-finding radar
[09:57] <Darkside> i ended up writing some software to tie sondemonitor into our existing balloon payload prediction system
[09:57] <Darkside> so i could get live predictions of the landing location
[09:57] <Darkside> i think we ended up recovering 10 sondes within a few days
[09:57] <PE2G> Great!
[09:58] <Darkside> was good fun
[09:58] <Darkside> they havebn't launched any more since then..
[09:58] <Darkside> the analog sonde launchs have been scaled back too.. only one launch a day now, at 0Z
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[09:58] <Darkside> well, 2315Z, but for 0Z
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[10:00] <PE2G> Here in the NL two sondes a day by De Bilt and one from De Kooy
[10:02] <PE2G> De Bilt 00Z and 12Z, De Kooy 06Z
[10:03] <bertrik> PE2G: can you receive and decode those?
[10:03] <PE2G> Yes, using SondeMonitor
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[10:07] <x-f> here they launch them at 00Z and only on even dates
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[10:10] <PE2G> X-f, which freq are they using?
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[10:11] <x-f> PE2G, 403.00 MHz
[10:12] <PE2G> Will try to receive it via a GlobalTuner
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[10:13] <x-f> PE2G, i'm in Latvia, just to be clear
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[10:13] <PE2G> No GlobalTuners there?
[10:14] <x-f> closest is in Helsinki
[10:15] <PE2G> Well, then we need strong southerly winds :-)
[10:15] <x-f> but you can try to listen for the one launched from North of Estonia on 06z every day, should be on 403 too
[10:15] <x-f> the other day i saw a faint line of it on the waterfall, but was unable to decode it
[10:15] <x-f> i didn't use a GT tho
[10:16] <PE2G> The problem is that you need a GT for a longer time, so SondeMonitor can calibrate.
[10:16] <x-f> PE2G, 12z, not 06z, sorry
[10:17] <PE2G> It needs at least a couple of minutes to calibrate, depeneding on signal quality
[10:18] <PE2G> OK, 12Z
[10:20] <PE2G> The downside of the RS92 is that you need (very) good signal to decode it.
[10:20] <PE2G> The DFM-06 is far easier.
[10:21] <x-f> yeah, last time i got the calibration data up to 96% and it was gone already
[10:22] <PE2G> Yes, that's the problem with a weak signal
[10:23] <x-f> it was snowing, that could have affected it
[10:23] <PE2G> Yes, possibly
[10:25] <PE2G> At the FRAPI project www.frapi.eu they use used DFM-06s to track theur balloons
[10:26] <Darkside> hehe
[10:26] <Darkside> for tracking the RS92's, we have a RS92 base receiver :P
[10:26] <Darkside> well, the antenna and amplifier from it
[10:26] <Darkside> and band-pass filters
[10:26] <Darkside> works awesomely
[10:27] <PE2G> That is Vaisala equipment?
[10:30] <PE2G> The Digicora?
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[11:03] <PE2G> De Bilt (NL) will start an ozone sonde at around 11:30Z.
[11:03] <PE2G> I'll put it on APRS, http://aprs.fi c/s PE2G-11
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[11:38] <x-f> ooh, it's on!
[11:40] <PE2G> Yeah, it's working :-)
[11:42] <bertrik> What frequency?
[11:42] <PE2G> 403.900
[11:43] <PE2G> Predicted landing sout of Osnabrück, Germany
[11:44] <x-f> Lunar_Lander is somewhere over there, iirc
[11:45] <bertrik> I think I can hear something at that frequency at about 1 Hz repetition rate
[11:46] <PE2G> Yes , it sends a frame every 1 sec.
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[11:48] <bertrik> What kind of modulation is it?
[11:48] <bertrik> Looks like a DSB signal in between two carriers to me
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[11:49] <PE2G> Modulation GFSK
[11:49] <PE2G> http://www.vaisala.com/Vaisala%20Documents/Brochures%20and%20Datasheets/RS92SGP-Datasheet-B210358EN-E-LoRes.pdf
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[11:50] <PE2G> But you can use NFM
[11:53] <PE2G> This particular one is an ozone sonde. RS92 + ozone sensor
[11:53] <PE2G> http://www.vaisala.com/Vaisala%20Documents/Brochures%20and%20Datasheets/Ozone%20Sounding%20with%20RS92-SGP%20Radiosonde%20Datasheet%20in%20English.pdf
[11:54] <bertrik> PE2G: thanks for all the info! pretty cool that I can actually receive it :)
[11:55] <PE2G> Where are you?
[11:55] <bertrik> Gouda
[11:56] <PE2G> It will climb to ~32 km if all goes well, so reception will become even better
[11:57] <bertrik> I don't really have line-of-sight, the signal is fading right now
[11:57] <PE2G> Stay tuned, when its's high enough you may regain signal
[11:59] <PE2G> Or simply follow it on APRS :-)
[12:01] <PE2G> Distance to my location is 82 km, it's coming into my direction
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[12:22] <griffonbot> Received email: anerDev "[UKHAS] Re: ddmm.mmmm to dd.dddd online or with excel"
[12:22] <Randomskk> sigh
[12:23] <mattbrejza> thats still going...
[12:24] <bertrik> PE2G: indeed, it seems to be getting clearer now, but still very noisy
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[12:26] <PE2G> bertrik: Ok that's what I expected. For decoding you need a fairly good signal though
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[12:39] <PE2G> Temp -80 deg C expected at 23-24 km altitude. Let's see...
[12:39] <Randomskk> -80C ?!
[12:40] <PE2G> Yes indeed. We're already at -74 C now at 19 km
[12:41] <Randomskk> uhm
[12:41] <Randomskk> blimey. that's exceptionally cold.
[12:41] <Randomskk> why is it so cold?
[12:41] <Darkside> thats normal
[12:42] <PE2G> A layer of air originating form polar regions?
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[12:42] <Darkside> this is being measured with a very thin wire temp sensor
[12:42] <Darkside> with basically no thermal mass
[12:42] <Darkside> unlike our horribly huge DS18B20s
[12:42] <Randomskk> yea, fe
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[12:57] <PE2G> It touched -80C at around 24500 m
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[12:59] <PE2G> http://gyazo.com/f1f2f5b0d426601fe91a9db8f1b69948
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[13:01] <fsphil> aah you're tracking sondes
[13:01] <fsphil> not done that in ages
[13:02] <x-f> http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=9&call=a%2FPE2G-11&timerange=3600&tail=3600
[13:03] <PE2G> Reception-wise the sonde is now entering a difficult area
[13:03] <fsphil> how are you decoding the data PE2G?
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[13:03] <PE2G> I hope I'll keep radio contact
[13:04] <PE2G> Using SondeMonitor : http://www.coaa.co.uk/sondemonitor.htm
[13:04] <x-f> PE2G, do you arm the GPS just like the manual says - connect your own GPS, download the almanac and use that?
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[13:04] <bertrik> I can barely see the 4.8 kHz lines anymore now
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[13:05] <fsphil> I had a sonde on spacenear once, but the gps positions where very inaccurate
[13:05] <fsphil> it was jumping about all over the place
[13:05] <fsphil> how are you reading the coordinates from sondemonitor?
[13:05] <PE2G> x-f: no, I use ephemerides; RINEX brdc files
[13:07] <PE2G> fsphil: you mean how I upload positions tp APRS?
[13:07] <bertrik> wow, the thing is moving at nearly 200 km/h now
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[13:07] <fsphil> yea. in my program I got the coordinates from a log file soundmonitor was writing
[13:07] <fsphil> I basically tailed the log
[13:07] <fsphil> but the position would jump about quite a bit
[13:08] <x-f> ah, so you download them - i tried with the almanac from GPS and the positions were like 100 km off
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[13:09] <fsphil> 29.5km, that's great
[13:09] <fsphil> my local sondes rarely get about 24km
[13:09] <fsphil> above*
[13:10] <x-f> fsphil, this is an ozone sonde
[13:10] <PE2G> x-f: RINEX brdc files give you residuals <50 m.
[13:10] <fsphil> ah ha
[13:10] <PE2G> Burst
[13:11] <fsphil> almost exactly 30km
[13:11] <fsphil> just tracking, or are you going to try recovering it?
[13:11] <PE2G> De Bilt wants it at 32 km or higher....
[13:12] <PE2G> Just tracking, too far away for me.
[13:12] <bertrik> can't see anything of it anymore on the waterfall display
[13:13] <PE2G> And I send the raw data to De Bilt, so they have some kind of antenna diversity
[13:14] <bertrik> Do these sondes have any kind of parachute?
[13:14] <fsphil> I know a system like that :)
[13:14] <fsphil> the ones I've seen do bertrik
[13:15] <x-f> that answers my next question - does the met-offices have some sort of tracking network
[13:15] <PE2G> It has a parachute and it seems to work
[13:16] <PE2G> No, just their own Digicora, which stops decoding after the burst BTW.
[13:17] <fsphil> yea the launch site is the only receiver isn't it?
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[13:17] <PE2G> Yes.
[13:17] <x-f> ah so
[13:17] <fsphil> there's a launch site not far from me, must see if I can visit it sometime :)
[13:17] <PE2G> And me.
[13:18] <PE2G> I continue decoding after the burst and send the data to them.
[13:20] <fsphil> most of the sondes launched here this week would land in scotland
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[13:24] <PE2G> -14 m/s at 15500 m. A fine parachute.
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[13:28] <PE2G> Signal is deteriorating, as expected in that direction
[13:29] <bertrik> PE2G: are there other people like you, who track these things and submit it back to KNMI?
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[13:29] <PE2G> I know about 3 in the Netherlands
[13:36] <PE2G> A noisy undecodable signal mow.
[13:44] <PE2G> I lost it completely now.
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[15:20] <nigelvh> Morning all
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[16:42] <anerDev> Hi folks !!
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[16:55] <cuddykid> Hi anerDev
[16:58] <anerDev> question
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[16:59] <anerDev> the differente between this module ?19.79
[16:59] <anerDev> Ex Tax: ?16.49
[16:59] <anerDev> NTX2 434.075Mhz Radio Module
[16:59] <anerDev> and this NTX2 434.650Mhz Radio Module ?
[17:00] <mclane> to which offer are you referring?
[17:02] <anerDev> in the Hab store there is 2 NTX2 module
[17:03] <anerDev> one have the 434.075 MHz and other have 434.650 MHz frequency !
[17:03] <anerDev> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=ntx2
[17:03] <anerDev> but, there are different between this model ?
[17:03] <anerDev> the best is 434.075 MHz or 434.650 MHz ?
[17:03] <mclane> no, the only difference is the frequency
[17:05] <mclane> I use the .650 MHz model since it is far away from the thermometers, remote controls etc. in the ISM band
[17:05] <mclane> which operate typically around 433.92 MHz
[17:17] <cuddykid> anerDev: either one will be fine
[17:18] <anerDev> ah ok ok
[17:19] <anerDev> i will buy .650 for my weather ballon !
[17:19] <anerDev> =
[17:19] <anerDev> D
[17:23] <arko> guten tag
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[17:31] <SP9UOB> mclane: Im choose 437.600 (Satellite band) - but i live in Poland, so no stupid regulations about airborne HAM's :-)
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[18:20] <eroomde> arko: yo
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[18:27] <arko> sup dude
[18:27] <arko> btw, do you have a date on lunching with tom?
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[18:31] <eroomde> arko: not yet
[18:32] <arko> cool cool, let me know so i can ditch work or school properly :P
[18:32] <eroomde> he said yes to that week but asked me to ping him nearer the time to set a specific day, as he wasn't sure what his schedule looked like 3 months out
[18:32] <eroomde> what's the temp in cal in jan/feb usually?
[18:33] <arko> right
[18:33] <arko> mmm
[18:33] <arko> 7C - 22C
[18:33] <arko> could be 4C - 24C at maximums
[18:33] <arko> usually
[18:33] <arko> thats just a range
[18:34] <arko> i wear tshirt and shorts
[18:34] <arko> im fine
[18:34] <arko> we get rain, but not super heavy
[18:34] <eroomde> grand
[18:34] <eroomde> will make a nice change from arctic ny and chicago
[18:34] <arko> we dont get "winter"
[18:34] <arko> yeah, ny is crazy
[18:35] <eroomde> i have a big down jacket
[18:35] <eroomde> will survive
[18:35] <fsphil> we haven't really had winter here yet. some ice but nothing major
[18:35] <arko> it hasn't hit 0C here
[18:36] <arko> it's like 7C outside right now
[18:36] <fsphil> christmas day was sunny and mild
[18:37] <eroomde> wet here
[18:37] <eroomde> it's always wet
[18:37] <eroomde> wet wet wet
[18:38] <eroomde> my house at risk of flooding again
[18:38] <arko> yikes
[18:38] <fsphil> yea saw the warnings on the weather, it's madness
[18:39] <PE2G> For those who have followed the Dutch ozone sonde on APRS: it was found by a farmer near Herford, Germany
[18:39] <bertrik> cool
[18:40] <PE2G> http://gyazo.com/545f20f3994805e925bf67fac3333615
[18:40] <arko> nice!
[18:40] <PE2G> It has been collected by a German HAM
[18:41] <PE2G> Landed exactly here: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.12207+08.76339
[18:42] <arko> what the heck, CCC is going on in hamburg right now?
[18:42] <arko> sorry, on the subject of germany
[18:43] <PE2G> Distance travelled 245 km, burst at ~31000 m.
[18:43] <arko> wow
[18:43] <arko> that must have been a lot of wind
[18:43] <arko> what was your ascent/decent rate?
[18:43] <fsphil> one of mine managed 500km :)
[18:43] <fsphil> although not intentionally
[18:44] <PE2G> What happened?
[18:45] <fsphil> ran out of helium, the balloon was underfilled
[18:45] <arko> yikes
[18:45] <PE2G> An unintentional floater?
[18:45] <fsphil> well, running out would be more accurate. the filling rate had slowed, and there was a snow shower heading towards us so we decided to just get it launched
[18:46] <fsphil> it only floated for about a minute
[18:46] <fsphil> it was just really windy
[18:46] <fsphil> basically launched it in a winter storm :)
[18:46] <fsphil> my notes say it was an average speed of 126km/h
[18:47] <fsphil> travelled 544km
[18:47] <fsphil> landed in the north sea
[18:47] <PE2G> Never found?
[18:48] <fsphil> nope. was just over a year ago now so not likely
[18:48] <fsphil> it was pretty far out from the coast
[18:48] <fsphil> I was kinda hoping it would have floated and made it to holland
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[18:49] <mclane> PE2G: what kind of software did you use for the tracking / ddecode?
[18:49] <PE2G> SondeMonitor by COAA
[18:50] <mclane> that runs on Windows I assume - anything for linux available?
[18:50] <fsphil> it can be run on linux via wine
[18:50] <fsphil> but there isn't any native linux decoders
[18:51] <PE2G> Its Win only. I don't know any other decoders for RS92s, apart from the Vaisala software
[18:51] <mclane> ok thanks, will try that
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[19:36] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:37] <arko> hallo
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[19:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> hi
[19:39] <Randomskk> any OS X users around?
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[19:41] <x-f> i am, on Snow Leopard (32bit)
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> I got an announcement
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> connected my cutdown to 3 energizer ultimate lithium AA cells
[19:42] <Randomskk> x-f: could you do me a favour and check if a dl-fldigi build runs okay?
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> wire is dark red and cuts through the cord well
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> yay :D
[19:42] <Randomskk> just need to download the .zip and run the app that's inside, check it loads etc
[19:42] <x-f> Randomskk, sure
[19:42] <Randomskk> ta http://habhub.org/files/dl-fldigi/dl-fldigi-DL3.1-macosx-2abd6a7-d955180.zip
[19:43] <x-f> Lunar_Lander, decided not to use LiPo for cutdown?
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> no, decided to go with Darkside's advice
[19:44] <x-f> Randomskk, it's a 64bit version, i can't run it
[19:44] <Randomskk> is that what it says?
[19:44] <Randomskk> what os x is snow leopard again? 10.?
[19:44] <Randomskk> it should run anyway
[19:45] <x-f> 10.6.8, i have a 32bit CPU (CoreDuo)
[19:45] <Randomskk> that shouldn't matter
[19:45] <Randomskk> does it not work? what's the error message?
[19:45] <Randomskk> does http://habhub.org/files/dl-fldigi/old/8714c31/dl-fldigi-DL3.0-macosx-8714c31-d829548.zip work?
[19:45] <x-f> "You cant open the application dl-fldigi.app because its not supported on this type of Mac."
[19:46] <Randomskk> I see
[19:46] <Randomskk> does that old one ^ work?
[19:46] <x-f> nope
[19:46] <x-f> i use the "leopard" version from the wiki
[19:46] <Randomskk> I see
[19:47] <Randomskk> that one actually works?
[19:47] <Randomskk> the one marked "10.5.8"?
[19:47] <x-f> yes
[19:47] <x-f> i crashes randomly and so, but otherwise it works
[19:47] <Randomskk> huh. I wouldn't expect it to load on >10.5
[19:47] <Randomskk> :/
[19:47] <Randomskk> well.
[19:48] <Randomskk> I see.
[19:48] <Randomskk> any other OS X users around? :P
[19:48] <x-f> sorry :)
[19:48] <Lunar_Lander> I got ubuntu
[19:48] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[19:48] <Randomskk> we were just about to retire that build
[19:48] <Randomskk> why are you on 32 bit 10.6?
[19:48] <x-f> i have a 1st gen MacBook
[19:49] <x-f> and after seven years.. it still works, no real reason to upgrade
[19:49] <x-f> i realise i will be forced to do so soon tho
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[19:59] <jcoxon> http://habhub.org/files/dl-fldigi/old/8714c31/dl-fldigi-DL3.0-macosx-2abd6a7.dmg
[20:00] <jcoxon> http://habhub.org/files/dl-fldigi/old/8714c31/dl-fldigi-DL3.0-macosx-10.5.8-2abd6a7.dmg
[20:00] <jcoxon> x-f, try this:
[20:00] <jcoxon> http://habhub.org/files/dl-fldigi/old/8714c31/dl-fldigi-DL3.1-macosx-10.5.8-2abd6a7.dmg
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[20:03] <fsphil> I've got a PPC Mac if you wanna test that? ;)
[20:05] <x-f> jcoxon, 404 not found
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[20:06] <Randomskk> x-f: http://habhub.org/files/dl-fldigi/old/8714c31/dl-fldigi-DL3.0-macosx-10.5.8-8714c31.dmg ?
[20:07] <Randomskk> wait
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[20:07] <Randomskk> x-f: try http://habhub.org/files/dl-fldigi/dl-fldigi-DL3.1-macosx-10.5.8-2abd6a7.dmg
[20:08] <x-f> it works
[20:08] <Randomskk> that last one?
[20:08] <Randomskk> DL3.1?
[20:08] <x-f> yes
[20:08] <Randomskk> cool
[20:09] <x-f> said, there's a newer version available
[20:09] <Randomskk> interesting
[20:09] <fsphil> my fedora build was saying that
[20:09] <fsphil> although it's not latest
[20:11] <DanielRichman> the update message is done on git commit and I haven't told it what the new ones are yet
[20:12] <DanielRichman> there's no current < newest going on becuase you... well you could do that to git commits with a bit of effort, but we don't
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[20:14] <jcoxon> i'm suprised it worked
[20:18] <x-f> Christmas miracle
[20:18] <x-f> i still have it open, hasn't crashed yet :)
[20:19] <jcoxon> well it shouldt crash
[20:19] <jcoxon> i've run it 24hrs +
[20:19] <x-f> that is great news!
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[20:20] <fsphil> appears to be working here too
[20:21] <fsphil> no active payloads but I suspect that's not a bug :)
[20:21] <Randomskk> well
[20:21] <Randomskk> it's not unexpected
[20:22] <x-f> thanks, guys!
[20:23] <x-f> i see BONZO3, NANU and SP9UOB on the active flights list
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> MSE update download is very slow
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> don't know what happened at microsoft
[20:23] <fsphil> oops, my coordinates are still in Sydney
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> wow!
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> it just jumped from 50 KB/s to 1 MB/s
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[21:23] <arko> fsphil: around?
[21:23] <fsphil> mostly arko
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[21:24] <arko> so i dont know who runs ukhas but i think i would like to do a talk about "environmental testing on HAB hardware"
[21:24] <arko> mission reliability, etc
[21:24] <Lunar_Lander> something like an altitude chamber?
[21:24] <arko> i got approval from work, as long as they review slide
[21:24] <arko> Lunar yeah
[21:24] <arko> and how to do it on the cheap
[21:24] <fsphil> that sounds great. the confs are usually organised by jcoxon and Upu
[21:24] <arko> how to come up with requirements
[21:25] <arko> thermal, vac, and emc
[21:25] <arko> cool
[21:25] <fsphil> I'm hoping to have a decent mic for 2013
[21:25] <arko> i'll be in the uk around late august, early sept
[21:25] <arko> hahaha, that would be cool
[21:26] <fsphil> and yay I don't have to talk :)
[21:26] <jcoxon> fsphil, ummmm
[21:26] <jcoxon> i'm sure we'll find you a talk again
[21:26] <fsphil> lol
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[21:26] <fsphil> I'm available for practical demonstrations. I can hold payloads pretty well
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:27] <arko> lol
[21:28] <arko> when/where can i submit talks?
[21:28] <eroomde> there's an official form
[21:28] <eroomde> well, 3
[21:28] <eroomde> one has to be submitted and undersigned by three existing members by at least 4 months before
[21:28] <arko> then you need approval with 5 signatures
[21:28] <eroomde> no just three
[21:29] <arko> then you must preform the chicken dance
[21:29] <arko> backwards
[21:29] <eroomde> we try and keep beurocracy to a minimium, you see
[21:29] <arko> :) good
[21:29] <fsphil> there was a secret entrance to the last conference
[21:29] <arko> im use to defcon, etc with talks
[21:29] <eroomde> then 2 months in advance it's time for the second form, named form 3 (to confuse foreigners)
[21:29] <arko> hahaha
[21:29] <jcoxon> arko, i'll put you on my list
[21:29] <arko> silly uk folks
[21:29] <jcoxon> ukhas 2013 will be probably in september
[21:29] <arko> kwel
[21:30] <arko> awesome
[21:30] <fsphil> ukhas 2012 even had a security guy
[21:30] <arko> i'll try my best to book accordingly
[21:30] <eroomde> that requires a copy of your pastport and a test for britishness including photographic evidence that you've eaten eggs and bacon and black pudding for breakfast every morning for the preceding month from a queen'd diamond jubilee commemorative plate
[21:30] <arko> lol
[21:30] <fsphil> and tea. lots of tea
[21:30] <jcoxon> eroomde, from teh back page of a glossy from the sunday times
[21:30] <arko> i do like tea
[21:31] <arko> and written conscent from the queen
[21:31] <arko> this process needs a wiki
[21:31] <eroomde> then two weeks before you get sat down for 3 hours with norman tebit and make a small administritive fee to the ed moore hobby fund
[21:31] <eroomde> $500 usd
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> I got a 20 pence coin, is that OK too=
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[21:31] <eroomde> as a downpayment
[21:32] <arko> i got like 15 quid on me
[21:32] <eroomde> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Royal-Worcester-Diamond-Jubilee-Mug/dp/B007IT06F0/ref=pd_sim_kh_3
[21:32] <eroomde> for your tea
[21:32] <arko> haha
[21:32] <arko> perfect pricing
[21:32] <eroomde> here is the plate
[21:32] <eroomde> http://www.thepresentshop.co.uk/images/shop/product_images/16795/Royal_Crest_Bone_China_Queens_Diamond_Jubilee_Plate_LP18047.jpg
[21:32] <eroomde> it's very tasteful
[21:33] <eroomde> if you don't find that tasteful enough there's always this
[21:33] <eroomde> http://www.brilliantbrighton.com/wp-content/uploads/Jubilee-plate-%C2%A315-%E2%82%AC18.jpg
[21:34] <eroomde> and only available from the most elegent and tasteful suppliers, there's this
[21:34] <eroomde> http://www.danburymint.co.uk/images/product_images/L_QJP.JPG
[21:34] <fsphil> so yea, apart from that it's a doddle
[21:34] <arko> wat
[21:34] <arko> i want a toilet bowl with that artwork
[21:34] <fsphil> royal flush?
[21:34] <eroomde> also please bring one of these to the conf itself
[21:34] <eroomde> http://teddingtontown.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/photo_dexters_jubileecake.jpg
[21:36] <arko> fsphil: you get a gold star for the day
[21:36] <arko> eroomde: i might actually
[21:36] <fsphil> I'll bring some jaffa cakes
[21:36] <eroomde> we should have tea and cake at the next one
[21:36] <eroomde> to stave off death at 4pm
[21:38] <jcoxon> hehe
[21:38] <jcoxon> that is always an issue
[21:38] <eroomde> my auntie got my cousin's bf a tasteful jubilee plate
[21:38] <eroomde> he is italian and they live in rome and are expecting a child in may
[21:38] <eroomde> so the family assault to maintain englishness has begin
[21:39] <eroomde> begun*
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[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:40] <arko> haha
[21:41] <OZ1SKY_Brian> gn all
[21:41] <arko> does the uk have a lot of businesses open late?
[21:41] <arko> gn
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[21:41] <eroomde> arko: not really, unless in city centres
[21:42] <arko> i've heard
[21:42] <arko> heard germany and austria are the same
[21:42] <arko> here we have coffee shops open till like midnight
[21:42] <arko> etc
[21:42] <eroomde> s/coffeeshop/pub
[21:43] <jcoxon> in london there are places
[21:43] <jcoxon> just need to know where
[21:43] <arko> ah
[21:43] <arko> "pubs" here are open till like 2am which is max (by law)
[21:43] <arko> most at least
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> its appropriate as the top says F 2 R
[21:44] <eroomde> most pubs here stop serving at 11
[21:44] <eroomde> but bars in towns are usually on club hours
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[21:46] <eroomde> changed his mind
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> arko, when I was little it was a big thing that the stores began to extend their opening times to 8 pm
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> today some food stores are open until midnight
[21:49] <arko> heh
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> but the electronics store in town is open until 6 pm and has a lunch break from 1 to 3
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> and on saturdays he closes at 1 pm
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> i dont know what the world is coming to !!!
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> sometimes i just want to stop it and get off!!!
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> btw I bought one of these labelling machines by brother
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> the first thing I printed was "Hello World!"
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:50] <fsphil> I dunno, all the people who have gotten off have came back
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> no not you jimmy
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> btw do you know the problem I am facing with my pyld?
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> (is that the proper acronym for payload btw?)
[21:51] <zyp> is there really a point in shortening a seven-letter word to four letters?
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> not really
[21:52] <zyp> so why?
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> yea, right
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> the thing is
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> the humidity sensor just gives 99% all the time
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[21:52] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: stop sweating so much when you're working on it
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> lol
[21:53] <zyp> either the sensor is bad or your circuit reading it is bad
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> I unplugged it and left the pin floating
[21:53] <Hiena> Lunar_Lander: hairdryer for the rescue.
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> that gave 42
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> well the lab couldn't been that humid
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> it was actually also cold in there
[21:54] <Hiena> Gently blow it with the dryer for a minute or two. It should change the reading.
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:54] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: what is the actual output of the sensor?
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> the raw one?
[21:55] <eroomde> i.e. is it, for example, an 8 bit number sent over spi?
[21:55] <eroomde> yeah
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> ah it is analogue
[21:55] <eroomde> ok, so you have it plugged into an a2d pin on your atmega chip?
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:55] <eroomde> cool
[21:55] <Hiena> If your workshop humid and cold the sensor tend to collect droplets inside and shows 99% reading.
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> (it worked before btw)
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:55] <eroomde> and what is the equation you use to turn the 10 bit number from the adc into a humiditiy percentage?
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[21:56] <eroomde> it worked before? ok. so assuming you've not changed anything, that implies the chip might have broken
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> try setting it on fire
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> the reading is multiplied by 2.56/1024 to get the voltage
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> that will remove the moisture
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[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> and the datasheet had a equation to convert the output voltage to humidity, I solved for that and then got a equation for that which is in the program
[21:57] <Hiena> If i have to deal such sensors, usually i bag them with a freshly baked silica-gel pockets. It's deals with the problem.
[21:57] <eroomde> ok, so what is the voltage that corresponds to 99% humidity?
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> 2.56
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> wait
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> that is 100%
[21:58] <arko> Lunar_Lander, be careful, some humidity sensors have hysteresis
[21:58] <eroomde> yeah. stop telling them jokes
[21:59] <arko> haha
[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> 2.55 V
[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> one sec
[21:59] <fsphil> that's not funny enough yet
[22:00] <eroomde> well, either it is actually wet or the chip has failed high
[22:00] <daveake> Has potential tho
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[22:00] <eroomde> assuming your assertion that nothing has changed since it was working is correct
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> the only thing I did was that I took the little piece of stripboard that was on top of the payload box, desoldered the socket and soldered the breakout directly to the board
[22:01] <eroomde> and your 'nothing has changed since x' assertions have been known to be wrong before, LL, on a few occassions, leading to some wild goose chaces, so think hard about whether or not you've changed anything
[22:01] <eroomde> lol
[22:01] <eroomde> ok
[22:01] <eroomde> so you've attacked it with a soldwring iron
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:01] <Hiena> ...
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[22:01] <daveake> I'm surprised how vague the definition of "nothing" is for a physisist
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> sorry
[22:02] <eroomde> LL - i would say that there is a good chance you might have damaged it with the desoldering and resoldering
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[22:02] <eroomde> i have broken pressure/humidity chips that way before too
[22:02] <eroomde> they are quite delicate
[22:02] <arko> do you know what it's based on?
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> you mean the sensing element?
[22:02] <eroomde> yeah, which chip is it?
[22:02] <arko> those membranes can easly break
[22:02] <jcoxon> this constant ground wind is tedious
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> I'd have to check the datasheet
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> a HIH-4030
[22:03] <arko> yeah the sensing element
[22:03] <Lunar_Lander> one moment
[22:03] <arko> if it's nafion you're screwed
[22:03] <arko> <--- first job was designing humidity sensors
[22:03] <Hiena> daveake: Did you ever dealt with family matter? "Honey, did you do anything with the (some electric device)?" "Nothing..."
[22:03] <arko> i have burnt my fair share
[22:03] <eroomde> nafion sounds like something CERN scientists might use to describe spurious results
[22:03] <Lunar_Lander> "The RH sensor uses a laser trimmed, thermoset polymer capacitive sensing element with on-chip integrated signal conditioning."
[22:03] <arko> it's an awesome material though
[22:03] <arko> oh ok
[22:04] <arko> you probably pulled if off cal
[22:04] <daveake> Hiena - I have customers
[22:04] <daveake> they're very inventive
[22:04] <Hiena> Ahhh...Explain a lot....
[22:04] <daveake> and economical with information
[22:04] <Lunar_Lander> there is no further text in the datasheet
[22:04] <arko> do you have the load resistor?
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> no
[22:05] <arko> you should have a load resistor
[22:05] Action: Hiena nods
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[22:06] <arko> check page 7
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> reason is that we first tried the 80 kOhm resistor in the datasheet
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[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> but we run it at 3.3V
[22:06] <arko> oh
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> and then daveake helped me calculate that the sensor is a 400 kOhm resistor
[22:06] <arko> it's not a 3.3v sensor though
[22:06] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:06] <daveake> did I?
[22:06] <daveake> oh shit
[22:06] <arko> 4 – 5.8 Vdc
[22:07] <eroomde> did it work on 3.3V before?
[22:07] <arko> or am i missing some info
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> arko, yes, I was led by that Nate of sparkfun wrote that he tested it at 3.3V
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> yes, I ran it since august on that voltage
[22:07] <eroomde> that Nate
[22:07] <eroomde> he so crazy
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> yea I think he is the boss or so
[22:08] <arko> hmm
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[22:08] <arko> did he have an adjusted curve?
[22:09] <Hiena> Is this HIH-4030-003?
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[22:09] <Laurenceb_> ooh nice
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> http://www.sparkfun.com/news/1033
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> they have MYDATAs
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> we run a whole floor of those
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> no, it is a -001
[22:10] <arko> mm
[22:11] <arko> why not use the HIH-5030
[22:11] <arko> or 5040
[22:11] <arko> those are 2.7 and up
[22:11] <arko> http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/product_sheet__hih-5030_and_hih-5031_series_humidity_sensors.pdf
[22:12] <Hiena> Lunar_Lander: Did you try to run the sensor on 5V
[22:12] <arko> beat me to it, was about to ask
[22:12] <arko> lol
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> yes, earlier on
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> arko, yea I considered that but there are no breakouts
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> and Honeywell rejected a sample request
[22:13] <arko> it's the same footprint
[22:13] <eroomde> giggle./window 12
[22:13] <arko> just unsolder the 4030
[22:13] <eroomde> er
[22:13] <eroomde> wow
[22:13] <arko> ?
[22:13] <arko> what are we giggling?
[22:14] Action: arko wiggles
[22:16] <eroomde> wrong window
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> ./window12 directs it to the correct window?
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> so eroomde doesnt really have any windows
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> its just one terminal right?
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> he's that 1337
[22:17] <arko> he's in the matrix
[22:17] <Hiena> Or, just using C64.
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> he IS the matrix
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> or that, yes
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> http://faildesk.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/hackers-desktop.gif
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> ^eroomdes desktop
[22:18] <arko> lol
[22:19] <Hiena> But that case LOAD WINDOW12 would be more appropirate.
[22:20] <arko> man i had such a bitch of time installing debian last night
[22:20] <arko> realized i should have net installed
[22:20] <arko> >_<
[22:21] <eroomde> i might try debian soon
[22:21] <Randomskk> ooi why?
[22:21] <eroomde> well, will stick with ubuntu lts actually for a while
[22:21] <eroomde> until it becomes a hindrence, if it does
[22:21] <eroomde> but it looks like ubuntu is going to become annoying
[22:21] <Randomskk> ubuntu lts generally makes me happy these days
[22:22] <arko> debian is annoying
[22:22] <arko> ubuntu is so much more friendly
[22:22] <Hiena> Do or do not... there is no try
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> I think the future will be the HIH-60xx series arko
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> I2C humidity+temperature
[22:22] <arko> whats the datasheet say?
[22:22] <arko> oh wonderful
[22:22] <arko> that makes it easy
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> that is a 2.7-5.5V sensor
[22:22] <arko> perfect
[22:23] <arko> you can't undervolt a capacitive sensor, you may get some data out, but it wont work very well
[22:23] <arko> trust the all mighty datasheet :)
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> there is just one thing
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> on the BMP085 people wrote in the example code what its I2C adress is
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> when I just browse through the datasheet I can't find the I2C adress of the HIH-6021
[22:25] <Hiena> Ubuntu is a resource hog. All bells and whistles, but annoying, when it comes to work.
[22:25] <Randomskk> Hiena: ??
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[22:26] <Randomskk> maybe you mean the default desktop is
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> I just found this
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> "21 = I2C, address 0x27"
[22:26] <Randomskk> but as an actual OS it's fine
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:26] <Randomskk> unity (the desktop environment) is awful
[22:26] <Randomskk> I hate it
[22:26] <Randomskk> but happily it's super easy to use something sensible
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[22:26] <Randomskk> like, say, awesome
[22:26] <Randomskk> which is well named ;D
[22:26] <eroomde> 22:24 < Lunar_Lander> there is just one thing
[22:26] <eroomde> http://bit.ly/TswI9F
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> is this dangerous?
[22:28] <eroomde> it's your middle name Lunar_Lander
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> XD!
[22:28] <eroomde> especially when you have a soldering iron and an electronics problem
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:29] <Laurenceb_> i just use 10.04LTS
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[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> I think 0x27 is a generic address for the HIH-60xx series
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> as I get it
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb_, as it doesn't have unity?
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[22:31] <Hiena> Randomskk: the actual OS is same as any other Linux. The core utils same to the last bit, only the ubuntu "retard protection" rules different.
[22:31] <Randomskk> that's not true
[22:31] <Randomskk> different repositories with different available software
[22:31] <Randomskk> and different choices made in putting it together
[22:31] <Randomskk> make it a very different thing to run than, say, gentoo or opensuse
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[22:33] <Hiena> Why? What is the different between the BSD cat, Ubuntu cat or Redora cat command? What is the different between the Ubuntu apt-get and the Debian apt-get?
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> I don't like that ubuntu doesn't update the repositories well
[22:34] <Randomskk> there's no difference between cat (or I'd hope not! it's been like this since early UNIX)
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> there is for example the medival (how do you write it?) Teamspeak 2
[22:34] <Randomskk> but almost the defining difference between ubuntu apt and debian apt is what repository you point it at
[22:34] <griffonbot> Received email: Daniel Richman "[UKHAS] Predictor update"
[22:34] <Randomskk> and having apt is a huge difference compared to gentoo or opensuse who use different systems entirely
[22:35] <Randomskk> Lunar_Lander: if you think ubuntu is bad try gentoo. though in the case of teamspeak I don't believe that's ubuntu's fault so much as teamspeak's licensing
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:35] <Randomskk> try debian* I meant to say
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> no I like my ubuntu
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> I even think that unity is nice
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> I dislike openSuse because it is a bit strange
[22:35] <Randomskk> Hiena: have you actually administrated multiple different linuxes? it's quickly apparent that they are different in a lot of ways
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> but I can't explain why
[22:35] <Hiena> More or less they package different way and thats all. What is in the package, what makes the OS tick, not the packing material.
[22:35] <Randomskk> heck ubuntu has upstart and other things are using that new systemwhatever and stuff
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> Randomskk, but I successfully use ubuntu and Lubuntu on the lab laptop which is from 2003
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> and it runs well
[22:36] <Randomskk> Hiena: there are differences even beyond the packaging mechanism, but there are differences in the contents and versions and frequency of updates of those packages
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> (I mean I have ubuntu here and lubuntu in the lab)
[22:36] <Randomskk> plus there are differences in what third parties support -- a lot of people build packages for ubuntu but not for other OSs
[22:36] <Randomskk> but there are further differences in choices made for the kernels and support systems, like upstart
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> Randomskk, yes, KDE is what I find a bit strange in opensuse
[22:36] <Randomskk> KDE is nice enough
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:37] <Randomskk> but I mean, you can use GNOME or anything else in opensuse
[22:37] <Randomskk> it doesn't make you use KDE
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> K3b is better then Brasero
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:37] <Randomskk> in the same way that I don't use unity or gnome in ubuntu
[22:37] <Randomskk> you can use k3b in ubuntu, anyway
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> thus I have it
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> brasero kills CDs
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> for some reason
[22:37] <Hiena> Randomskk: Yes. All of them is a different shoes filled with manure. You could try them all days long, but it will be the same shit.
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> what was the other one again
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> the one that Xubuntu has?
[22:38] <Randomskk> Hiena: what do you use?
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> Lubuntu has LXDE right?
[22:38] <Randomskk> calling them shit is personal opinion and if that's what you think then whatever, but in my experience they work very well and I'm happy
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> Xfce
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> what about that?
[22:38] <Randomskk> Lunar_Lander: it's another. there are loads. enlightenment just released too.
[22:38] <Randomskk> I use awesome
[22:38] <Randomskk> it's nice
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> at uni at the computer ubuntu tells me about 12.10
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> here I got no messages about that
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> both run 12.04
[22:39] <Hiena> Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, and TinyCore on the old laptops, and guess some HDD floatin around the hous with some LFS.
[22:40] <Randomskk> and you don't like any of them?
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> but I don't want to update to that or Ubuntu 13
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> as I would lose LTS, right?
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[22:41] <Hiena> Not at all. I use the OS-es, not dating with them.
[22:41] <Randomskk> well sure
[22:41] <Randomskk> do you dislike them?
[22:44] <Hiena> Due the about 80% of them same, they are more or less. Did the carpenter dislikes the hammer, after hit his thumb? Well, i hitting my thumbs more than 15 years...
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[22:46] <Hiena> Heh, once i tried more than 20 open source OS on a same notebook. The task was quite simple: Install on it, start the wifi, and play some streaming music.
[22:49] <Hiena> Most of them failed, due they had common base. Most Linux failed due the udev. The BSDs and the exotic ones (AROS) failed due the lack of hw support.
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[23:36] <arko> http://i.imgur.com/rY1Ld.gif
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[00:00] --- Fri Dec 28 2012