[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> hi Dan-K2VOL
[00:36] <Dan-K2VOL> hey kevin
[00:36] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[00:41] <arko> i literally had a dream that the us changed to metric over night
[00:41] <arko> last night
[00:42] <arko> it was awesome
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[00:52] <KF7FER> arko: so it really was the end of the world as we know it then?
[00:53] <KF7FER> all I know is that in the 70's during grade-school I was ready for the US to switch "any minute now".... I'm almost 50 and still waiting
[00:54] <arko> lol
[00:54] <arko> it was great, everyone was cool with it
[00:54] <arko> so i instantly realized it was a dream
[00:56] <KF7FER> well I doubt imperial measurements will go quietly in any event (unfortunately)
[01:04] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[01:05] <arko> precisely
[01:07] <gonzo___> impreial units are still used over here, though usually to wind up people who can't think in differen units
[01:07] <gonzo___> t
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[01:11] <KF7FER> of course I was also promised that racism would also die and I believed - I see now how naive I was about that
[01:11] <Lunar_Lander> but I say
[01:11] <Lunar_Lander> In Time
[01:11] <Lunar_Lander> everything will be allright
[01:12] <KF7FER> gotta have hope, right?
[01:13] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:13] <Lunar_Lander> and do you know from which song I have that line
[01:13] <fsphil> they're inching towards metric
[01:13] <Lunar_Lander> or in which movie that song was in
[01:13] <KF7FER> The killers?
[01:14] <KF7FER> (just googling ;-) )
[01:14] <KF7FER> so no, not really. sorry
[01:15] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[01:15] <Lunar_Lander> Robbie Robb - In Time, featured in "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure"
[01:17] <KF7FER> wow... who would have thought that watching Bill & Ted would actually have some value. I think it's Mr. Reeve's best role
[01:17] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[01:18] <KF7FER> so Lunar how's the board going?
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[01:18] <Lunar_Lander> that is going OK, did a cold test to check for bad solder spots, but that was OK
[01:18] <KF7FER> how cold?
[01:18] <Lunar_Lander> -77°C
[01:19] <KF7FER> uh... I was going to say I'd like to do that at home but no, I don't think I can
[01:19] <KF7FER> wow
[01:19] <Lunar_Lander> yea, that was at the laboratories
[01:19] <KF7FER> the board works under power at -77?
[01:19] <KF7FER> not to mention the whole "C" thing :-)
[01:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:20] <Lunar_Lander> the thing was that the batteries (alkalines) started to fail at the end
[01:21] <KF7FER> I can imagine. That's pretty brutal. Congrats then. Is easy to make a cold solder joint _someplace_ on the board
[01:21] <Lunar_Lander> so I took the system out again and the green LED on the board which is connected directly to power was flickering and the blue LED which indicates RTTY when flashing was just on solid
[01:21] <Lunar_Lander> so I think the arduino did get not enough voltage to run the program anymore
[01:21] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[01:23] <KF7FER> I've seen some of these garden-variety AA's fail at mid 30's temps during tests, but what do I expect when I paid $12 for 48
[01:24] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:24] <Lunar_Lander> mine were also from the discounter
[01:24] <Lunar_Lander> 8 for some $2
[01:25] <KF7FER> I was shocked how much lighter the L91's are than the cheap batteries. Almost 1/2 the weight
[01:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:25] <Lunar_Lander> and I find it funny what they write on the cheap batteries
[01:25] <Lunar_Lander> on the ones I got there they wrote "SUPER ENERGY"
[01:25] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[01:26] <KF7FER> well Super is relative and all that. Perhaps super compared to well... a potato?
[01:26] <KF7FER> at least it was spelled right :-)
[01:27] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[01:27] <Lunar_Lander> but for flight I will use the Energizer Ultimate Lithium
[01:28] <Lunar_Lander> and that deserves its name :)
[01:29] Action: SpeedEvil treated himself, and has replaced all his random aa and aaas with eneloops.
[01:29] <KF7FER> no doubt - my latest tracker ran 7hrs with 2xAA generics, but just a few minutes short of 24 with the Ultimates
[01:30] <KF7FER> certainly live up to the hype
[01:31] <KF7FER> SpeedEvil: They work pretty good? never seen them before, but I hear the name being used
[01:32] <SpeedEvil> KF7FER: instead of being discharged after maybe 2 or 3 months tops, they are 50% charged after 3 years
[01:32] <Lunar_Lander> KF7FER, yes
[01:33] <KF7FER> wow! I'd pretty much given up on NiMH batteries but I guess maybe I was a bit hasty... that's pretty nice.
[01:33] <Lunar_Lander> one of my team mates bought some pretty expensive NiMHs though for bench testing
[01:33] <KF7FER> seems like old tech
[01:33] <Lunar_Lander> so that we don't need to buy any alkalines or use up lithiums for that
[01:34] <KF7FER> seems like a very cost effective solution since you can reuse
[01:34] <KF7FER> price doesn't seem too bad really
[01:36] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[01:52] <mrShrimp> Are voltage dividers or voltage regulators preferable for payload power supplies?
[01:55] <mrShrimp> ... Voltage dividers would use less components, but I would need to implement multiple loads in a sort of ladder configuration.
[01:56] <mrShrimp> Getting that to work properly has been a pain :p
[01:56] <nick_> You should use a regulator if you need a fixed voltage
[01:56] <mrShrimp> Ok
[01:57] <nick_> Voltage regulators will output a constant voltage as long as the input voltage is sufficiently higher than the nominal output voltage
[01:57] <nick_> Whereas a divider will just make the output voltage a fixed fraction of the input voltage, and so as your battery loses voltage the output voltage will drop
[01:58] <mrShrimp> Right, but I have been wondering whether I need to purchase things like a heatsink and filter capacitors as well?
[01:58] <mrShrimp> I don't think the heatsink will be necessary
[01:58] <mrShrimp> but does the voltage actually vary a lot without putting in the two capacitors?
[01:58] <nick_> You probably don't need a heat sink unless your are doing something using a large amount of power
[01:59] <nick_> You probbaly don't need capacitors either
[01:59] <mrShrimp> Ok, thanks!
[01:59] <nick_> It depends whether you have any components that suddenly increase their power comsumption or whatever
[01:59] <nick_> That said capacitors are dirt cheap and having them won't hurt (unless you connect it wrong)
[02:00] <mrShrimp> The only nearby electronic components shop is a radioshack for me :p
[02:00] <mrShrimp> which overprices everything
[02:00] <mrShrimp> and ordering online takes time, so I think I will try it without the capacitors
[02:00] <nick_> I mail order components (or steal them from work)
[02:01] <nick_> But it's worth buying a small selection of capacitors and having them around
[02:01] <mrShrimp> I probably should do that
[02:01] <nick_> In the same way that it's worth having a range of resistors around
[02:01] <mrShrimp> I bought this neat kit from sparkfun with a ton of resistors
[02:01] <mrShrimp> yep
[02:03] <KF7FER> mrShrimp: where are you?
[02:03] <nick_> When you're picking a regulator make sure to check the drop out voltage
[02:03] <mrShrimp> US
[02:03] <mrShrimp> I already bought the lm317
[02:03] <mrShrimp> from radioshack :p
[02:03] <mrShrimp> for 3 dollars!
[02:04] <nick_> That is, the minimum voltage difference between the input and output voltages that will maintain the desired voltage
[02:04] <KF7FER> nick_ has great advice, but if you can get used to the interface... digikey has great prices and decent prices for US shipping for small packages
[02:04] <nick_> And make sure that your battery supply will stay above the output voltage + drop out voltag
[02:04] <nick_> e
[02:04] <mrShrimp> The package says "Input output voltage differential: 40v"
[02:04] <mrShrimp> *40V
[02:04] <mrShrimp> Would that be the drop out voltage?
[02:04] <nick_> Do
[02:05] <nick_> It'll be something in the 0.5-2V range
[02:05] <nick_> probably
[02:05] <mrShrimp> ok, I'll check the datasheet
[02:07] <KF7FER> mrShrimp: when you can, you should check out http://www.digikey.com/. Really. It's worth the effort if your only alternative is radio shack.
[02:07] <KF7FER> hard to navigate at first but it does pay off
[02:08] <KF7FER> buy more than 3 values of resistors and you'll pay first class shipping vs radio shack
[02:08] <KF7FER> bad example but I hope you get the idea :-)
[02:09] <KF7FER> I do shop there btw - sometimes I just can't wait
[02:09] <mrShrimp> Ok, thanks! My mom works at a university nearby so she is usually able to buy cheap components from the EE store, but they are closed for the holidays now.
[02:10] <mrShrimp> That's how I usually get common components.
[02:10] <KF7FER> sometimes the easiest way is the best
[02:11] <KF7FER> so was that actually an LM317t?
[02:11] <mrShrimp> yes
[02:11] <mrShrimp> with a t
[02:11] <mrShrimp> Does that make a difference?
[02:11] <mrShrimp> I know that the LM317a is rated for lower temperatures
[02:12] <mrShrimp> but it doesn't mention the t as far as I have seen
[02:12] <mrShrimp> on the datasheet
[02:12] <KF7FER> just curious - if you search the RS site you don't get any results for "lm317" but you do for "lm317t"
[02:13] <nick_> I got a result for lm317
[02:13] <KF7FER> it's adjustable, I suspect that's why they don't report the dropout voltage on RS's site. Or maybe they just don't care
[02:13] <mrShrimp> ya
[02:13] <nick_> I found it in a data sheet
[02:13] <nick_> Or a plot of it with temp/current
[02:13] <KF7FER> We're sorry. Your search for “lm317” found 0 items.
[02:13] <KF7FER> lm324
[02:13] <mrShrimp> for 100-200 ma with balloon temperatures I should be able to get a 1.5V dropout
[02:13] <KF7FER> oops
[02:13] <KF7FER> I mean on the radio shack site
[02:13] <nick_> It's in the 1-2Vrange
[02:14] <mrShrimp> The LM317T isn't rated for -0 degrees C though
[02:14] <KF7FER> 1.5v dropout is like the dark ages
[02:14] <KF7FER> I'm used to .5v or less
[02:15] <KF7FER> at 250mA
[02:15] <nick_> What voltage is your system runnign at?
[02:15] <nick_> 0.5V?
[02:15] <mrShrimp> The transmitter runs at 3.3
[02:15] <mrShrimp> and the gps at 5
[02:15] <mrShrimp> So I was going to divide the regulated voltage at a node
[02:16] <nick_> So you need a 5V outpput voltage from your regulator
[02:16] <mrShrimp> yes
[02:16] <nick_> And thus > 6.5 V battery pack
[02:16] <mrShrimp> I have a 9v
[02:16] <mrShrimp> that I can use for testing
[02:16] <nick_> Which might be a shame
[02:16] <mrShrimp> inefficient?
[02:16] <nick_> Since 9V have crappy capacity
[02:16] <mrShrimp> ah
[02:17] <mrShrimp> I'll buy something nice for the actual flight
[02:17] <nick_> But you could go for a bunch of AA
[02:17] <KF7FER> mrShrimp: might help to buy a 6xAA battery pack... RS even has them
[02:17] <KF7FER> good idea nick :-)
[02:17] <mrShrimp> I have a 12xAA pack that outputs 12V
[02:18] <nick_> 12xAA should output 18V, no?
[02:18] <KF7FER> well unless they are well used AA's ;-)
[02:18] <mrShrimp> it's running a little low
[02:18] <mrShrimp> I am not sure that they are all in series either.
[02:19] <mrShrimp> although I don't see how it could work otherwise
[02:19] <Lunar_Lander> back on station
[02:19] <KF7FER> well I've got a 6xAA battery pack that puts out 6v but that's not what it used to do :-)
[02:19] <Lunar_Lander> I didn't read all the backscroll
[02:20] <Lunar_Lander> but if you buy a regulator like the one that sparkfun has, in the so called TO-220 package, that has a heatsink fin already
[02:20] <Lunar_Lander> but if the regulator gets hot, that surely is a short
[02:20] <Lunar_Lander> I am pulling some 110 mA while the regulator goes up to 1A
[02:20] <Lunar_Lander> so that can be noticed
[02:21] <mrShrimp> The LM317 has a heatsink fin as well.
[02:22] <mrShrimp> wait
[02:22] <mrShrimp> ok, now I understand what you were saying
[02:22] <Lunar_Lander> TO-220 is that black thing with a heatsink with a hole in it and three pins
[02:23] <mrShrimp> I thought that hole was to attach larger heatsinks
[02:23] <mrShrimp> but I guess it is a heatsink in of itself.
[02:24] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[02:25] <Lunar_Lander> KF7FER, btw I use 4xAA and that works well
[02:26] <KF7FER> me too - but not with an LM317. Do you use that?
[02:27] <KF7FER> I get 30hrs off 4xAA's
[02:28] <KF7FER> but if your dropout voltage is too high you won't get far with 4xAA's
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[02:28] <mrShrimp> I should probably buy a fixed 5V regulator
[02:28] <Lunar_Lander> I got 38h from 4 ultimate lithiums
[02:28] <mrShrimp> with a lower dropout voltage
[02:28] <Lunar_Lander> and I use the LD1117V33
[02:29] <KF7FER> ok. I was just responding to the comment that the LM317 had a dropout voltage of over 1v and if you want to run 5v with 4xAA's, that won't work
[02:29] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[02:29] <Lunar_Lander> true
[02:30] <KF7FER> mrShrimp: it's easier to do so
[02:30] <KF7FER> less parts
[02:30] <KF7FER> cheaper
[02:30] <KF7FER> not as much to solder :-)
[02:30] <mrShrimp> radioshack is out of them though D:
[02:30] <KF7FER> not in a big city then?
[02:31] <mrShrimp> well, yes
[02:31] <mrShrimp> I have yet to find some good component retailers near me though
[02:31] <mrShrimp> Maybe I should just use digikey for this one.
[02:32] <KF7FER> LOL depends. I typically have to batch up my orders to save on shipping. Compared to RS it's not hard to save money if you're patient
[02:32] <KF7FER> patient=can wait for shipping
[02:32] <KF7FER> I was just going to suggest that most larger cities have at least one electronics shop that's better stocked than RS but may not be cheaper
[02:33] <KF7FER> heck, it's cheaper for me to order from digikey than to drive to a better stocked store
[02:33] <KF7FER> given the price of gas
[02:33] <KF7FER> but sometimes it's not - if you need it today, who cares what it costs? Or even think you need it, as I often do
[02:34] <mrShrimp> That's what went through my head when I saw that they didn't have 5V but did have the LM317T
[02:34] <KF7FER> fair enough. any port in a storm I often say. Just know that you can do better later
[02:35] <KF7FER> I've done that more than I'll admit here :-)
[02:35] <KF7FER> just ask my ex-wife
[02:35] <KF7FER> bad joke sorry
[02:37] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[02:37] <KF7FER> I've noticed that RS isn't much on real datasheets
[02:38] <mrShrimp> Thanks everyone for helping me! Cue the Mulan song as I get down to business getting this regulator to work.
[02:39] <KF7FER> BTW RS has some great prototyping boards - I love http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103800&znt_campaign=Category_CMS&znt_source=CAT&znt_medium=RSCOM&znt_content=CT2032230#
[02:47] <KF7FER> Lunar_Lander: so you get 38h with your board with all the sensors and didn't it have an SD card as well?
[02:47] <Lunar_Lander> yes, an sparkfun openlog
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[02:48] <KF7FER> Nice. I think I'm done with the 5v APRS tracker running off an LDO... just not enough headroom
[02:48] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[02:50] <KF7FER> I was actually shocked to build an APRS tracker with a 5v boost converter than got nearly 24hrs off 2xAA's... I didn't think it would work. Now I can't imagine doing anything different
[02:50] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[02:50] <KF7FER> not quite as cool as the stuff that Upu is doing but for me... thanks. I think it's cool
[02:51] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[02:53] <KF7FER> so you going to launch soon?
[02:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea hopefully
[02:54] <Lunar_Lander> just have to get the cutdown wire right
[02:55] <KF7FER> using a nichrome (thanks to google for the spealing healp) wire or ?
[02:56] <KF7FER> didn't I see a video of someone using matches to provide a source?
[02:57] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[02:57] <Lunar_Lander> matches were an idea by a ph.d. student in my group but I think using just the wire to melt the cord is better
[03:00] <KF7FER> interesting. I've been wanting to implement some sort of cutdown but I've always held off hoping to implement receive functionality into the tracker first, so it could receive a cutdown command (as well as being hardcoded due to some parameter being exceeded)
[03:01] <KF7FER> but it seems that a lightweight 2m transceiver is the holy grail
[03:02] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[03:03] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[03:03] <SpeedEvil> the holy hand-grenade would work as a cut down
[03:04] <KF7FER> hard to beat the cost of those Chinese HT's for a radio, but they weight tone compared to something that RadioMetrix makes
[03:04] <KF7FER> SpeedEvil: so I have to ask - what makes a hand-grenade holy?
[03:04] <KF7FER> tone=ton in Engrish
[03:05] <Lunar_Lander> SpeedEvil, ROFL
[03:06] <KF7FER> does it smell like frankincense and myrrh?
[03:06] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[03:06] <KF7FER> just trying to be in the holiday spirit and all :-)
[03:07] <Lunar_Lander> xD yea
[03:07] <Lunar_Lander> and good night :)
[03:07] <Lunar_Lander> it's 4:07 am here
[03:07] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[03:07] <KF7FER> sure sounds like good night :-)
[03:08] <Lunar_Lander> good night :)
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[03:47] <arko> er mer gerd
[03:47] <arko> i love cadding
[03:51] <arko> http://imgur.com/a/WDznq
[03:54] <arko> http://www.flickr.com/photos/arkorobotics/sets/72157632317793340/
[03:54] <arko> err imgur looks downish from here
[04:12] <arko> eroomde: ^
[04:12] <arko> its not that impressive but im happy with it
[04:19] <arko> not complete either
[04:22] <arko> rope is a bitch in cad
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[05:00] <arko> anyone here recommend a good HAB foam chassis?
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[05:14] <SpeedEvil> arko: http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=310540525186&index=0&nav=SEARCH&nid=69153221970
[05:15] <arko> haha
[05:16] <SpeedEvil> more seriously, you can either find a small insulated suitable container, or make your own from sheet and duct tape
[05:17] <arko> i was hoping to find a source that sells strong/hard styroform boxes
[05:17] <arko> something that hold up and not break when you kick it
[05:17] <SpeedEvil> http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=271051081609&index=9&nav=SEARCH&nid=39557680704
[05:18] <arko> THAT!
[05:18] <SpeedEvil> will be fairly robust
[05:18] <SpeedEvil> I wouldn't kick it hard
[05:18] <arko> heh
[05:18] <arko> that does look better, but some how I've noticed this one material that's perfect
[05:18] <arko> i can tell by the texture
[05:19] <arko> the type of styrofoam it is
[05:19] <SpeedEvil> http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=200831359153&index=23&nav=SEARCH&nid=75423903423
[05:19] <SpeedEvil> look ideal
[05:19] <SpeedEvil> for smaller
[05:19] <SpeedEvil> mug mailers
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[06:40] <arko> http://wiki.032.la/nsl/HABEX2#Flight_Hardware
[06:40] <arko> added radar reflector and hoop
[06:41] <arko> forgot the FAA requires the reflector
[06:43] <SpeedEvil> :-)
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[07:57] <arko> crazy thought
[07:57] <arko> is there a database of aircraft radar data in the us?
[07:57] <arko> i realized the last hab i launched had a radar reflector, perhaps some radar tower picked it up
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[08:01] <KT5TK> Has anybody played with the Arduino Due yet? What are the pros and cons for using it in a tracker?
[08:02] <arko> seems over powered
[08:02] <zyp> overpriced rather
[08:03] <arko> heh, i should know that too, i designed my own due
[08:03] <arko> http://arkorobotics.com/portfolio.html
[08:03] <arko> 4th square
[08:03] <arko> never launched the website
[08:03] <KT5TK> Depends on what you want to do. I guess better than a full Raspi
[08:05] <KT5TK> Well designing my own is what I want to do. Just use the IDE for fast transfer to a new platform
[08:05] <KT5TK> It's actually not available for any price anywhere atm
[08:07] <KT5TK> arko: What are the SMA connectors on your special due for?
[08:07] <arko> zigbee and gps
[08:07] <arko> the board was loaded
[08:07] <arko> $150 was the target price
[08:07] <KT5TK> nice
[08:08] <arko> another product i just didn't see through :/
[08:08] <arko> school/work got me too busy
[08:12] <KT5TK> Essentially I was thinking of something similar. Just instead of Zigbee some sub GHz radio
[08:12] <arko> i wanted wifi
[08:12] <arko> something anyone can connect to
[08:12] <arko> figured if you want crazy range you can install your own externally
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[08:13] <KT5TK> Yeah, wifi is reasonable but not very useful on a HAB
[08:13] <arko> oh no way
[08:13] <arko> hah
[08:15] <KT5TK> We had 10 miles wifi links to a balloon earlier, the video link was quite choppy though
[08:15] <KT5TK> with wrt 54g boxes
[08:15] <KT5TK> and huge dishes on the ground
[08:16] <KT5TK> HSMM-MESH firmware
[08:17] <KT5TK> doable but not very practicable
[08:26] <arko> heh
[08:27] <arko> you should have popped a 1W amp
[08:27] <arko> on it
[08:46] <Upu> morning all
[08:48] <Darkside> morning
[08:49] <arko> morning
[08:50] <number10> morning
[08:50] <Upu> at least the clock says morning, the sky says middle of the night
[08:50] <daveake> Morning
[08:50] <Darkside> lol
[08:50] <number10> cant be that dark?
[08:50] <Darkside> 44 fracking degrees here today
[08:51] <arko> i can't wake up early :(
[08:51] <Upu> well I have the curtains open and I need the light on in this room number10
[08:51] <number10> :(
[08:52] <daveake> It's dark oop north
[08:52] <Upu> and you wouldn't want be launching balloon up here
[08:52] <hessu_> -7.6F / -22C here, brrr.
[08:52] <Upu> its very windy
[08:52] Nick change: hessu_ -> oh7lzb
[08:52] <arko> woah
[08:52] <arko> -22C where the heck are you?
[08:52] <Upu> you win oh7lzb
[08:52] <number10> thats cold
[08:52] <Upu> Mordor
[08:52] <oh7lzb> Mikkeli, Finland.
[08:52] <arko> oh that's a pretty place
[08:53] <Darkside> finland finland finland
[08:53] <oh7lzb> And this is still not northern Finland, relatively south...
[08:53] <Darkside> ther country where i want to be
[08:53] <daveake> Lol
[08:53] <Darkside> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rwc3VGvlRY
[08:53] <Upu> isn't northern finland in the arctic circle ? Or is that Norway
[08:53] <daveake> Shlip schlap
[08:53] <arko> i wonder if you can exchange your finland drivers license for a professional driving license here in the dates
[08:53] <arko> states*
[08:53] <Upu> I knew that was going to be a Monty Python sketch.. :)
[08:54] <oh7lzb> It's -30 in some parts. Yeah, northern parts of Finland, Sweden and Norway are within the arctic circle.
[08:54] <arko> yikes
[08:54] <number10> its amazing looking at google maps for Mikkeli - so many lakes
[08:54] <arko> perfect for hab electronics testing
[08:55] <arko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnYGhAXbDsM
[08:55] <arko> so cool
[08:55] <oh7lzb> The fun part is that I had promised to take missus to work in the morning. And then I got the timer setting wrong in the car's heater (diesel fuel heater). The car was pretty much -22C when we sat in.
[08:56] <Darkside> a fuel... heater
[08:56] <Darkside> wow
[08:56] <Darkside> there's a concept australians will just not get
[08:56] <oh7lzb> Would have been a nice +18C inside if I had gotten it right like usual.
[08:56] <Upu> haha
[08:56] <arko> haha darkside
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[08:57] <oh7lzb> Most cars here have either an electric or fuel-burning heater that you use to heat up at least the engine, and in some cases, the interior, before even trying to start the engine.
[08:57] <arko> i want your drivers license
[08:58] <oh7lzb> The electric ones you plug in to a 240V mains socket, there's a heater element in the engine block. Mine burns diesel in a small oil-burning heater, technically not much different to oil heaters in houses, just smaller.
[08:59] <arko> O_o
[09:00] <oh7lzb> The fuel-burning heater is nice since you don't need a mains socket to warm it up, but it's a bit heavy on the car battery, since it requires some 12V oomph while warming up to run the heater and fans.
[09:00] <oh7lzb> And the car battery is not at its performance peak at -22C.
[09:00] <arko> no insulated or heated garages?
[09:01] <oh7lzb> Many, but not everyone has one. I don't.
[09:01] <arko> ah i see
[09:02] <oh7lzb> Luckily I have winter-grade diesel in the tank now only, summer diesel will not flow through the fuel lines when it's this cold. :)
[09:04] <number10> a couple of years ago - we had a cold spell over christmas -11 (cold for here) and I dont think they put the additive in the diesel - so it waxed up
[09:10] <oh7lzb> The oil and other fluids do not quite flow and lubricate at these temperatures, and when the battery voltage goes down with the temperature, it can be difficult to get the engine started.
[09:11] <oh7lzb> Uh, it's been -28C the other night at our summer place. I have openwrt running on a d-link wifi box there, with 3 temperature sensors: http://aprs.fi/telemetry/a/OH7LZB-14
[09:12] <oh7lzb> the metallic box where the electronics is stays about 5C warmer all the time, although it's not really insulated.
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[09:22] <oh7lzb> It might be cold but it's beautiful. Just took a photo for you through the window here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/37346897/2012-12-23-110628-mli-talvi.jpg
[09:23] <x-f> winter wonderland
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[09:50] <cm13g09> oh7lzb: looks nice. All I've got as a view is a flooded river....
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[10:59] <oh7lzb> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/37346897/2012-12-23-123413-lasit.jpg
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[11:02] <jarod> nice
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[11:37] <eroomde> I CAN'T HEAR YOU
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> there has been no discussion of any launch since midnight
[11:37] <eroomde> SHOUT LOUDER
[11:38] <eroomde> none that I know of. habby xmas etc
[11:43] <Upu> lol
[11:44] <Upu> 26th I think Chris
[11:44] <fsphil> maybe the 29th too
[11:45] <fsphil> or the 31st, see if I can break habitat with a year change :)
[11:45] <Upu> thats a 1600g float ?
[11:45] <fsphil> that's the plan atm
[11:45] <Upu> super
[11:45] <Navrac_Work> ah upu - did you send me a domino sample sketch - I seem to have lost a complete directory of sketches including all my VCO code etc
[11:45] <fsphil> I keep thinking of things to add to it, but trying to resist
[11:45] <Upu> You sent it to me navrac
[11:46] <Upu> Do you have Dropbox ?
[11:46] <Navrac_Work> im sure i got a sample ino file for arduino with domino
[11:47] <Upu> I sent that yes
[11:47] <Navrac_Work> only the company one - havent worked out how to do a personal and company one on the same pc
[11:47] <Upu> k
[11:47] <Upu> http://pastebin.com/gJ8Fi8g8
[11:48] <Upu> ignore the comments at the top :)
[11:48] <Upu> I think credit to fsphil for some of that too
[11:48] <fsphil> whoops
[11:48] <fsphil> also those tables came from fldigi
[11:49] <Upu> it was just code we threw together
[11:49] <Upu> not really for release
[11:49] <Navrac_Work> thanks for that - the concept of starting again completely from scratch didnt appeal.
[11:49] <fsphil> it decoded here, with the odd bad character
[11:49] <Upu> right off out for "brunch" with our friend from London bbl
[11:49] <Navrac_Work> enjoy
[11:50] <Navrac_Work> I'm trying to build a payload today, between moving a load of logs that got delivered last night, xmas food shopping, dog walking and house cleaning and going out for the evening - its going to be tight
[11:51] <Navrac_Work> only using second hand parts
[11:57] <mattbrejza> btw Upu, advantages of dominoex?
[11:58] <Navrac_Work> probably none really as the RTTY only seems to be limited by LOS
[11:58] <Navrac_Work> so its more just doing something diferent for a change
[11:58] <Navrac_Work> (ipu's gone out)
[11:59] <mattbrejza> well if it had better performance you could cut the tx power which is nice for picos
[11:59] <mattbrejza> or up the datarate
[11:59] <mattbrejza> and yea only just noticed his bbl
[12:01] <Navrac_Work> thanks - you've reminded me why I was going to do dominoex now v- I must admit I was sitting here thinking ' i know theres a reson'
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[12:24] Nick change: Arbition -> Arrrbition
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[12:35] <New2Balloon> Hi All
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djc8FPHs45o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> (not hab related)
[12:38] <New2Balloon> for fear of sitting and waiting on ebay for weeks... Does anyone know of an FT817 for sale anywhere?
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[12:51] <fsphil> not mine :)
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[12:57] <New2Balloon> it's a nightmare... not looking for one, there's loads... now I want one, there's none! Still hopefully santa will be bring people now nice new FT5000's and they'll want to pass of their 817 to me :D
[12:58] <fsphil> good optimisim :)
[13:00] <New2Balloon> desparation...
[13:00] <cuddykid> only irritating thing about the 817 is the battery munching - never known something to eat as many batteries as it does
[13:00] <cuddykid> apart from that, it's great
[13:02] <New2Balloon> I know, I've had one before and used it with a Gel Battery in a backpack, it's a small irratation for what is a bargain priced do it all radio
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[14:14] <chrisg7ogx_> does anyone know of any launch activity today please?
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[14:21] <daveake> Well there's none mentioned on the mailing list, and none shown on spacenear, so I'd say there's none
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[15:02] <SpeedEvil> and not seen any mentioned here
[15:02] <SpeedEvil> since mod night
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[15:04] <Upu> Hey chrisg7ogx_ are you on the mailing list ?
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[15:15] <daveake> hello
[15:15] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[15:15] <daveake> hah
[15:15] <daveake> You have to be quick on the keyboard to beat me :)
[15:17] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[15:18] <number10> Lunar_Lander: fancy tracking on wednesday, if we launch any pico balloons?
[15:18] <Lunar_Lander> sorry, I left my radios at university :(
[15:18] <number10> you have a few days to pop back and get it
[15:19] <number10> :)
[15:19] <Lunar_Lander> yea but everything will be closed on the 25th and 26nd
[15:19] <Lunar_Lander> sorry
[15:19] <Lunar_Lander> 26th
[15:19] <Lunar_Lander> and I don't know if there is someone on the 24th
[15:19] <number10> 24th tomorrow you could go then
[15:19] <number10> phone ahead :)
[15:20] <number10> you will need to get some practice tarcking for your own balloon :D
[15:21] <number10> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=5c4066ab1046c9a17edfea1e9740e4129ddcbfea
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[15:23] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[15:23] <Lunar_Lander> I know for sure that no one will be there
[15:23] <Lunar_Lander> that is the main problem
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[16:36] <mclane> hi, is there a binary available for ubuntu 12.10?
[16:38] <New2Balloon> mclane, this any good?
[16:38] <New2Balloon> https://opensource.conformal.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=647
[16:39] <Laurenceb_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/16313630@N07/ <-nerd alert
[16:42] <mclane> New2Balloon: no, this is something else
[16:42] <mclane> ah, I forgot: is there a binary of dl-fldigi available for ubuntu 12.10?
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[16:43] <mclane> otherwise I need to compile myself - but I am lazy...
[16:46] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane
[16:46] <mclane> hi Lunar_Lander
[16:47] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[16:49] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[16:49] <Lunar_Lander> we once said that the batteries by SAFT are like good for low current applications
[16:50] <Lunar_Lander> are they good to power a FT-790R for example?
[16:50] <mclane> bad - I completely ruined my PC installation during upgrade and now I am installing everything new
[16:50] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[16:50] <mclane> luckiely I had a backup
[16:50] <mclane> Nevertheless, a lot of work
[16:51] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[16:51] <mclane> but apparently, I have to compile dl-fldigi by myself since mo binary for ubuntu 12.10 available
[16:51] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[16:52] <daveake> My cock-up of the day: Wired an NTX2 to a Pi, and wondered WTF I wasn't getting rtty out of it. Then I realised that my ssh session was connected to the wrong Pi, so the tracker program was on a different Pi to the NTX2 :p
[16:52] <fsphil> like that one
[16:52] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[16:53] <daveake> Only figured it out when I rebooted and noticed that putty was still connected :)
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[16:54] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[17:01] <Lunar_Lander> hi RocketBoy
[17:02] <RocketBoy> yo everyone
[17:02] <Lunar_Lander> mclane, and how is your christmas?
[17:02] <Lunar_Lander> how are you steve?
[17:02] <Laurenceb_> does daveake have a model A pi?
[17:02] <daveake> yo RocketBoy
[17:02] <daveake> Nope, no model A
[17:03] <daveake> I can wait :)
[17:03] <RocketBoy> i think daveake lives "the life of pi"
[17:03] <daveake> :)
[17:04] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[17:04] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[17:04] <Lunar_Lander> did you see that Copenhagen Suborbitals put up a video on their capsule Tycho Deep Space 1?
[17:04] <Lunar_Lander> which shows capsule testing, LES testing and the LES test flight
[17:05] <RocketBoy> has anone noticed that the CUSF hourly predictor and landing predictor give different results for the same input conditions?
[17:05] <daveake> yup
[17:06] <RocketBoy> yeah - I've noticed this for some while now
[17:06] <daveake> The CUSF guys know about it
[17:06] <RocketBoy> not sure if it used to be the case
[17:06] <daveake> Confusion reigns I believe
[17:07] <daveake> Yes it's been like it for many months, at least
[17:07] <RocketBoy> yeah - quite signifcantly different sometimes
[17:07] <RocketBoy> I'm thinking code review
[17:08] <RocketBoy> one thought was that they are using different deltas
[17:08] <Upu> DanielRichman has check the code over
[17:08] <daveake> I believe the caluclation code is exactly the same
[17:08] <Upu> they are using the same core
[17:08] <daveake> So different data then
[17:08] <Upu> but yes they do give differing results
[17:08] <DanielRichman> I *think*
[17:08] <DanielRichman> that it's a caching issue
[17:08] <Upu> I think its the "hot potato" of stuff that needs fixing
[17:09] <DanielRichman> yes, that
[17:09] <DanielRichman> is it doing it right now?
[17:09] <DanielRichman> (and or can you give me an example prediction?)
[17:09] <Upu> Did you describe the code as "disturbing" ? :)
[17:09] <DanielRichman> I can't remember. If I did I meant no disrespect. It does have some curious ... features/design choices.
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[17:10] <RocketBoy> A few of my fights have been almost spot on ascent rate, burst and descent rate this year - but were significantly out from the predictor.
[17:11] <RocketBoy> I have an example - I'll put it up
[17:11] <Upu> I just did a quick test and for Tuesday its spot on
[17:12] <Upu> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hysplitout/191051_trj001.gif
[17:13] <chrisg7ogx_> i am available to help track HF/VHF/UHF
[17:13] <Upu> I think there are 2 pico launches on Boxing Day Chris
[17:13] <Lunar_Lander> that doesn't sound good when the predictor malfunctions
[17:14] <daveake> The LOHAN flight path was completely different to the predicted path, but that's down to the data
[17:14] <Upu> its only ever advisory Lunar
[17:14] <chrisg7ogx_> great thanks by then I should be able to slip away!
[17:15] <Upu> give you a good excuse :)
[17:15] <RocketBoy> http://imagebin.org/240449 and http://imagebin.org/240448
[17:15] <chrisg7ogx_> i love the way everyone knows what is meant
[17:15] <RocketBoy> both on the same GFS - both 20k burst both 4.2m/se ascent rate 5m/sec descent rate - both churchill launch
[17:16] <DanielRichman> will have a poke around
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[17:17] <RocketBoy> could be quantum entanglement
[17:17] <RocketBoy> ;-)
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[17:18] <daveake> Eddies in the space-time continuum
[17:19] <fsphil> Is he still there?
[17:20] <daveake> Still waiting for DFS to deliver his sofa
[17:20] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[17:20] <Lunar_Lander> oh german flight safety delivers sofas?
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[17:22] <fsphil> wasn't he the only person ever to buy a sofa when DFS didn't have a sale on?
[17:22] <Lunar_Lander> btw awesome british song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buJ2DZZHHAI
[17:26] Nick change: Laurenceb_ -> IloveISO9001
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[17:28] <RocketBoy> the only advantage of having a cold is its a great excuse for a rusty nail - purely madicinal
[17:28] <RocketBoy> medicinal
[17:30] <Lunar_Lander> what do you think of the song?
[17:33] Nick change: IloveISO9001 -> Laurenceb_
[17:34] <Lunar_Lander> btw the gadget show has stupid call-in questions http://s.gullipics.com/image/o/c/2/5yvq4d-kiya7k-zndn/Bildschirmfotovom20121223183134.png
[17:35] <RocketBoy> Everything sounds/looks 10% better under the influence of rusty nails
[17:35] <Upu> meh just drink the Whisky :)
[17:35] <RocketBoy> oooo I know the awnser to that
[17:36] <daveake> It'd take a lot of rusty nails for you not to know the answer to that :)
[17:37] <RocketBoy> mmm - let me try
[17:37] <daveake> An experiment begins
[17:37] <DanielRichman> okay. there is a slight issue, which is that if I re-run the prediction (forcing it to use the 06z dataset, since there's a new one now) then it gives the same result as the hourly (i.e., magically fixed itself)
[17:37] <daveake> This is science (TM)
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[17:37] <DanielRichman> I took a copy of some files befoer doing that so I'll see if I can find something obvious that's changed
[17:39] <RocketBoy> I'll do another one
[17:39] <RocketBoy> BTW you may or may not (depending on editing) see me on the James May glider thing this evening on BBC2.
[17:40] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[17:40] <Laurenceb_> they glued wings to him?
[17:40] <Lunar_Lander> what is the name of the show?
[17:40] <RocketBoy> James Mays Toy stories christmas special I think
[17:40] <Upu> 9.30
[17:40] <Upu> BBC2
[17:41] <Upu> Will give that one a watch cheers
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[17:42] <Lunar_Lander> xD James May and Jeremy Clarkson were on the graham norton show on dec. 3
[17:42] <RocketBoy> who came off worse
[17:42] <RocketBoy> ?
[17:44] <Lunar_Lander> I don't know I only watched the end with that red chair because the the sky at night was next
[17:44] <fsphil> you get bbc one there?
[17:44] <Lunar_Lander> no I got onlinetvrecorder
[17:44] <fsphil> ah
[17:46] <fsphil> if you got a big enough satellite dish you could probably get it direct too
[17:46] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[17:47] <Lunar_Lander> via one of the ASTRA 2 satellites
[17:48] <fsphil> year an a half to go: http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/whereisnh/overview/nhov20121201_0546.jpg
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[17:51] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[17:52] <fsphil> around the same time for Rosetta too
[17:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[17:54] <fsphil> and about 6 months after that Dawn arrives at Ceres
[17:55] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:55] <Lunar_Lander> thus dawn is the first dwarf planet probe
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[17:56] <DanielRichman> I have a candidate potential cause for the predictor problem
[17:59] <RocketBoy> don't be shy
[17:59] <chrisg7ogx_> james may's toys is on BBC 2 at 2130
[18:02] <DanielRichman> RocketBoy: just trying to confirm a suspicion
[18:02] <DanielRichman> will explain more in a sec
[18:02] <RocketBoy> :-)
[18:03] <fsphil> the butler did it, in the kitchen
[18:03] <daveake> with the pipe
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[18:16] <DanielRichman> RocketBoy: ok I have figured it out
[18:17] <DanielRichman> and will now attempt an explanation
[18:17] <DanielRichman> the prediction is two steps; predict.py first gets wind data, then the C binary does the prediction.
[18:18] <DanielRichman> predict.py writes wind data into a folder called gfs
[18:18] <DanielRichman> filenames it writes contain the time of the wind data, its location, but NOT the model
[18:18] <DanielRichman> I can't remember exactly how the C binary selects files to use, but the idea is that predict.py writes anything it needs
[18:19] <DanielRichman> (overwriting any stale data in that directory)
[18:20] <DanielRichman> so for example, for your prediction, the python wrote gfs/gfs_1356512400_52.0_0.0_3.0_3.0.dat and then the C predictor said it is "Loading wind data from '/var/www/cusf-standalone-predictor/gfs//gfs_1356512400_52.0_0.0_3.0_3.0.dat"
[18:20] <DanielRichman> but:
[18:20] <DanielRichman> python says "writing gfs/gfs_1356523200_52.0_0.0_3.0_3.0.dat" C predictor says "reading gfs//gfs_1356523200_52.0_0.0_3.0_10.0.dat"
[18:20] <DanielRichman> and here's the problem
[18:21] <DanielRichman> lat long windows means that file (gfs_1356523200_52.0_0.0_3.0_10.0.dat) was created for another prediction, and the C predictor (I can't remember exactly how it decides which files to use) decided that it looked useful and opened it up
[18:21] <DanielRichman> investigation revealed that the file infact contained data from the 20th of December
[18:21] <DanielRichman> (aside: your prediction was run at 1pm today; a second prediction was run at 3pm today that overwrote that file again with data from today's 06z model. That's why when I re-ran your prediction just now, it produced the correct result)
[18:22] <DanielRichman> so this problem is pretty easy to fix
[18:23] <DanielRichman> (it's also worth noting, that in cases where the standalone and hourly predictors have disagreed, the hourly has been correct)
[18:23] <DanielRichman> (may be of interest to Randomskk jonsowman ^^)
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[18:27] <gonzo___> also for Randomskk jonsowman:
[18:28] <gonzo___> could someone assist with a flight doc for a possible pico, flying tomorrow
[18:28] <RocketBoy> yeah - that is interesting - where I have found the stand alone predictor to differ from actual actual has been closer to the hourly
[18:28] <DanielRichman> gonzo___: have you created the flight doc?
[18:28] <DanielRichman> and need it approving?
[18:29] <gonzo___> tried a few days ago. The web i'f was noit playing ball
[18:29] <DanielRichman> oh? http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload ?
[18:30] <gonzo___> yep, that's the one. Beed changed since wednesday?
[18:30] <DanielRichman> no, but I'd be interested to hear what your problem with it was
[18:31] <gonzo___> run thropugh it on PM?
[18:32] <DanielRichman> sure
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[18:52] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:12] <number10> evening jcoxon
[19:13] <number10> did you dry out your recovered payload
[19:20] <jcoxon> yup
[19:22] <number10> any plans to launch jcoxon ?
[19:25] <jcoxon> i've been on nights so haven't replaced the batteries
[19:25] <jcoxon> so not in the next few days
[19:27] <jcoxon> number10, you going to launch?
[19:29] <number10> jcoxon I have a new tracker and was thinking of doing so - a little windy though - I'll put in flight doc just incase for 26th ish
[19:31] <jcoxon> yeah really recommend mimimal ground winds
[19:31] <jcoxon> i'll bring my funcube up to suffolk
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[19:33] <number10> maybe too much with 10mph
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[19:46] <MiniMail> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afVBVLhm84k&feature=youtu.be
[19:46] <MiniMail> haha :)
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[20:14] <DanielRichman> RocketBoy: https://github.com/jonsowman/cusf-standalone-predictor/pull/97 and with that, hopefully, the issue should be fixed
[20:14] <DanielRichman> please let me know if you observe disagreement amongst the predictors again
[20:16] <RocketBoy> thanks - could this explain the issue daveake/upu had with the LOHAN flight?
[20:18] <Randomskk> think so
[20:19] <Randomskk> hm
[20:19] <Upu> well I think that was just bad data tbh
[20:19] <RocketBoy> It sounded like it to me - could have picked up an old forecast - hence the unexpected wind change
[20:19] <DanielRichman> how long ago was this?
[20:19] <Upu> that sounds feasible actually
[20:19] <Randomskk> dec 01 wasn't it?
[20:19] <DanielRichman> hmm we probably won't still have the logs from then
[20:20] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: I have a copy of the pydap-cache from then
[20:20] <Randomskk> but no logs
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[20:20] <Randomskk> should have really got the logs at the time, oops
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[20:20] Nick change: [1]Boggle -> Boggle
[20:20] <Randomskk> admittedly the pydap-cache isn't hugely helpful. the gfs folder would have been better.
[20:20] <DanielRichman> predict/preds goes back to the 8th Dec
[20:20] <Upu> the issue was we got the predictions for 18:00 at about 11:00
[20:21] <DanielRichman> we have 7 days worth of backups, so maaaybe...
[20:22] <DanielRichman> 2nd of Dec is the earliest I have
[20:22] <Upu> it was the 1st
[20:23] <Upu> as we did PAVA on the 30th
[20:23] <DanielRichman> I think that it's going to have to remain a mystery then :(
[20:25] <mattbrejza> if anyone remembers this also happened for CRAAG, although with a less wet result
[20:25] <mattbrejza> for that flight the prediction was wrong, but if you set the flight time to a few hours later in the day it was better
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[20:26] <Upu> PAVA the day before actually went where I was expecting though in fairness it was going to overshoot the prediction and end in France
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[20:29] Nick change: [1]Boggle -> Boggle
[20:31] <RocketBoy> well its a plausible explanation
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[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> <Lunar_Lander> btw
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> <Lunar_Lander> we once said that the batteries by SAFT are like good for low current applications
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> <Lunar_Lander> are they good to power a FT-790R for example?
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[20:51] <eroomde> Randomskk: ping
[20:52] <Randomskk> hi
[20:52] <eroomde> gear envy - a photographer friend and i met up for coffee. he just showed me a lens his studio have got for him
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[20:52] <eroomde> it's not really his, more he is its current guardian, somewhat in the model of a stradivarius
[20:52] <eroomde> anyway
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[20:53] <eroomde> it's a leica noctilux 50mm
[20:53] <Randomskk> !
[20:53] <Randomskk> the f/1?
[20:53] <eroomde> the write home feature is that it goes out to f/0.95
[20:53] <Randomskk> yea
[20:53] <Randomskk> mental
[20:53] <eroomde> i'm not sure quite how that's possible
[20:53] <eroomde> but, it's amazing
[20:54] <eroomde> super sharp even that wide open, and ridic depth of field
[20:55] <Randomskk> mm
[20:55] <Randomskk> really nice bit of glass
[20:55] <eroomde> i am a bit jel
[20:55] <Randomskk> I was at the airport the other day
[20:55] <eroomde> it's a beast
[20:55] <eroomde> you wouldn;t want it round your neck for too long
[20:55] <Randomskk> and there was one of those electronics shops. uhm. currys or something
[20:55] <Randomskk> anyway the computer section
[20:55] <eroomde> but it's very lovely
[20:55] <Randomskk> camera*
[20:55] <Randomskk> a _huge_ range of L glass
[20:55] <Randomskk> no lens cap or end cap
[20:55] <Randomskk> sitting on the shelves for people to, idk, pick up and put fingerprints on
[20:56] <eroomde> how odd!
[20:56] <Randomskk> right up to the intensely silly telephoto primes
[20:56] <Randomskk> the ones that run well into four digits of price
[20:56] <Randomskk> but, loads of them! and camera bodies without anything on either
[20:56] <eroomde> this lens was 5 digits of price
[20:56] <Randomskk> 1Ds and the like
[20:56] <daveake> L lens on the cheap - http://khalednoorblog.com/?p=2045 :)
[20:56] <Randomskk> eep
[20:56] <Randomskk> the other thing is it's 5 digits but it's not one of those absolute monsters
[20:57] <Randomskk> the really expensive canon L glass are basically telescopes
[20:57] <Randomskk> telescopes made of only the finest glass :P
[20:57] <eroomde> mmm
[20:57] <Randomskk> daveake: haha excellent :D
[20:58] <eroomde> i shall work up to the Mx and 35mm sumicron lens
[20:58] <eroomde> when company gets sold or something
[20:58] <eroomde> x = presumably > 9 by the time that happens
[20:58] <Randomskk> hehe
[21:03] <eroomde> i might chance the hobbit tomorrow
[21:04] <Randomskk> I am yet to see it but plan to at some point soon
[21:04] <Randomskk> going to go for the 48fps 3d experience or the normal film?
[21:04] <fsphil> good movie
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> does anybody have an idea on my battery question?
[21:04] <fsphil> sadly nowhere is showing it in 48FPS + 2D
[21:04] <RocketBoy> here is the L series my son-in-law is getting http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CANON-LENS-THERMOS-MUG-CUP-70-200mm-L-SERIES-IS-EF-GIFT-/280559067764
[21:04] <daveake> hah
[21:05] <fsphil> I find 3D annoying now
[21:05] <daveake> Saw one of those in Debenhams
[21:05] <Randomskk> wow, I've seen the mug but not the large thermos
[21:05] <eroomde> the full experience
[21:06] <daveake> Oh, sorry, think it was the mug
[21:06] <RocketBoy> he will be thrilled and then dissapointed at the same time
[21:06] <daveake> Still quite large
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[21:06] <daveake> lol
[21:06] <Randomskk> put a rock in it
[21:06] <Randomskk> to help with the weight :P
[21:06] <daveake> Just about to say that :)
[21:06] <RocketBoy> blie tack
[21:06] <fsphil> you're all bad people :p
[21:06] <RocketBoy> blue
[21:06] <daveake> For added realism and extra disappointment
[21:06] <Randomskk> or maybe fill it with something nice
[21:07] <Randomskk> :P
[21:07] <Randomskk> eroomde: I've got the changepoint demodulator down to "only" 20dB worse than a matched filter
[21:07] <Randomskk> :/
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> hah
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> brb
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[21:09] <SpeedEvil> totally frustrating when that sort of stuff happens
[21:09] <Randomskk> though my calculation of how much noise power to use to achieve a given SNR is definitely wrong
[21:09] <Randomskk> because the matched filter is doing a lot better than the theoretical BER for that SNR
[21:09] <Randomskk> oh well
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> you make an involved structure, when it turns out a plank works just as well
[21:09] <Randomskk> suspect it's to do with not compensating for the energy of a discrete sampled sinusoid properly
[21:10] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: especially when you knew the plank works but were hoping the advanced structure'd be nice :P
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> are you sure your simulated noise isn't bogus?
[21:10] <Randomskk> in theory this does have other advantages
[21:10] <Randomskk> the simulated noise power is definitely inappropriate for the stated SNR
[21:10] <Randomskk> but my matched filter and my bayesian ones are using the same input data
[21:10] <Randomskk> but the changepoint decoder needs 20dB more SNR to get the same BER
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> I mean, the noise is actually random?
[21:10] <Randomskk> I think so
[21:11] <Randomskk> numpy.random.standard_normal
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> should be good then
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[21:12] <Randomskk> I think one big problem is that going from "there was probably a transition low->high here, here and here" to an output bitstream is still painfully naive
[21:13] <Randomskk> I basically just take every transition as indication of the subsequent bit, and if there were no transitions fill in from the earlier data
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[21:13] <Randomskk> but that means it'l quite happily chug along when it gets two sequential identical transitions, which is obviously an error
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[21:14] <Randomskk> might see about demodulating this first and then doing changepoint detection in phasor space instead
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> and you don't take into account that bits happen about a bit-time apart?
[21:16] <Randomskk> in this new version, I do
[21:16] <Randomskk> previously I wasn't giving it any explicit timing information at all
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> feed the output into some sore of maximal likely hood decoder?
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> ah
[21:16] <Randomskk> this new version is given the points in the data where a transition should occur or not
[21:16] <Randomskk> i.e. it's bit synchronised. which means it's less practically useful but should perform better
[21:17] <Randomskk> and also means it's computationally several orders of magnitude faster
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> ah
[21:17] <Randomskk> I'm a) no longer calculating two transition posteriors for every single sample of data, which was horrific
[21:17] <Randomskk> but also b) not doing a wavelet analysis to find suitable peaks in the posterior density
[21:17] <Randomskk> instead I'm basically just doing the changepoint posterior at each transition instance
[21:18] <Randomskk> and then assuming random data I can work out a suitable threshold once all the posteriors are known
[21:18] <Randomskk> and then just compare against the threshold to see if any given point had a transition or not
[21:19] <Randomskk> I had some issues at first where some of the transitions had bigger likelihoods than others, even without noise, but it turns out that was because I had data going out of phase with the decoder (the number of samples per bit was not an exact number of carrier cycles)
[21:19] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[21:19] <Randomskk> once I phase synchronised it (making it even less practical) the changepoint detection was a lot better and more similar for each transition
[21:19] <Randomskk> but yea
[21:20] <Randomskk> it's a) still not a very clever way to go from transitions into a bitstream b) now requires phase and bit synchronisation, which is almost entirely one of the ways this should be better
[21:21] <Randomskk> so yea
[21:21] <Randomskk> not hugely happy with it yet
[21:22] <Randomskk> going to see if doing after demodulation to phasors helps
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[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> does anyone watch James May on BBC2?
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[22:01] <Navrac_Work> finally got back to do some work on my 'poor mans' dominoex and it worked straight away. However the RFM crashes as soon as I blow on it. Weird..
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> lol homeland
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> the endings a little dramatic
[22:02] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: no spoilers
[22:04] <Laurenceb_> heh
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[22:15] <fsphil> my satellite receiver just crashed. lost the program (I had it paused for about 20 minutes)
[22:16] <Lunar_Lander> does anyone watch James May on BBC2?
[22:18] AD7ZJ (~elijah@184-12-183-3.dr02.kgmn.az.frontiernet.net) joined #highaltitude.
[22:18] <AD7ZJ> 'afternoon all
[22:19] <fsphil> howdy AD7ZJ
[22:20] <AD7ZJ> how's it going?
[22:20] <fsphil> mostly good here. got a cold. you?
[22:21] <AD7ZJ> bummer.... that time of year I guess
[22:21] <AD7ZJ> pretty good here, enjoying a little time off work
[22:21] <fsphil> aye, nice to get some time off
[22:21] <AD7ZJ> Love high altitude ballooning, just now found there's a channel for it on freenode
[22:22] <fsphil> ah brilliant. you done many launches?
[22:23] <natrium42> hi peeps
[22:23] <natrium42> hello AD7ZJ
[22:23] <fsphil> hey mr.42, how's the world treating you?
[22:24] <AD7ZJ> hey natrium42
[22:24] <natrium42> good, back to sanity
[22:24] <natrium42> (cali -> ontario)
[22:24] <AD7ZJ> quite a few, part of ANSR. we've done 30 or so since I joined
[22:24] <natrium42> how are you fsphil?
[22:24] <natrium42> eroomde is going to visit me in january, ujelly?
[22:25] <fsphil> nah, I've met him twice now ;)
[22:25] <fsphil> not familiar with ANSR AD7ZJ
[22:25] <Darkside> natrium42: so have I
[22:25] <Darkside> and i live the other side of the world too :P
[22:26] <AD7ZJ> that's cool
[22:26] <AD7ZJ> and fsphil, ANSR is arizona near space research, so if you don't live in the US that's probably why
[22:26] <Darkside> we don't hear much about the US launches
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[22:26] <fsphil> that would be it :)
[22:27] <AD7ZJ> aah ok
[22:27] <fsphil> google got me to http://www.ansr.org/
[22:27] <AD7ZJ> Yeah, that's us
[22:29] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: so the problem the brits have is they aren't allowed to use amateur radio airborne
[22:29] <eroomde> natrium42: correct
[22:29] <Darkside> so they are stuck with ISM band limitations
[22:29] <AD7ZJ> ....really?
[22:29] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: yep
[22:29] <AD7ZJ> that would suck :-(
[22:29] <fsphil> yea
[22:29] <Darkside> yep
[22:29] <Darkside> i'm in Australia, we don't have that problem
[22:29] <fsphil> we've done some neat stuff with 10mw :)
[22:29] <AD7ZJ> We have a strong emphasis on amateur radio, that's really what makes it interesting IMO
[22:29] <eroomde> I know of ansr
[22:29] <fsphil> I imagine you have lots of open space there too AD7ZJ
[22:29] <eroomde> I used to spend a lot of time looking at everything you guys have done
[22:30] <Darkside> but yeah, the UK groups are all about minituraziation and making the most out of 10mW
[22:30] <AD7ZJ> Yeah, we usually fly down south of phoenix, in the maricopa area
[22:30] <eroomde> I also was lucky enough to exchange a few emails with KD7LMO, for which I count myself lucky
[22:30] <AD7ZJ> eroomde, neat, would be interested in seeing some of the stuff you've made :-
[22:30] <AD7ZJ> :-) *
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> hello Darkside
[22:30] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: whaaaaat
[22:30] <eroomde> AD7ZJ: i used to run the group at cambridge, cusf.co.uk
[22:30] <Darkside> i just woke up
[22:30] <AD7ZJ> Yeah, KD7LMO was awesome, we really miss him
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> who was KD7LM0?
[22:31] <AD7ZJ> eroomde, I'm surprised you can do a lot at 10 mW, I assume you have to use pretty high gain antennas to make that work?
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> or KD7LMO
[22:31] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: they don't use APRS
[22:31] <AD7ZJ> One of the original tech guys at ANSR
[22:31] <fsphil> before my time sadly
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[22:31] <Darkside> they use 50 baud RTTY
[22:31] <fsphil> 300 too*
[22:31] <Darkside> yeah :P
[22:31] <Darkside> works fine with 10mW
[22:31] <AD7ZJ> he built up a lot of our payloads, unfortunately was killed by a drunk driver some years ago
[22:31] <Darkside> RX distance record is something like 800km
[22:31] <eroomde> AD7ZJ: well, a lot of the listeners can get several hundred miles just with a 1/4 wave whip
[22:32] <AD7ZJ> Darkside, aah
[22:32] <eroomde> and yeah, the distance record is about 800km with a decent yagi
[22:32] <AD7ZJ> eroomde, interesting, that's very good. What freq?
[22:32] <fsphil> the 800km one was helped by some atmosphere woo-woo
[22:32] <eroomde> 70cm
[22:32] <AD7ZJ> I think our best is 700 something miles, tx to california
[22:33] <AD7ZJ> eroomde, aah ok
[22:33] <eroomde> yeah, the previous best record was radio LoS from 40km, about 500-600km i beleive. so 800km is a bit anaomolous
[22:33] <Darkside> eroomde: we've had recption reports but not decodes out to 900km
[22:33] <Darkside> during the horus 16 floater
[22:33] <natrium42> any upcoming launches?
[22:33] <eroomde> i can beleive it, if the atmosphere is playing along
[22:33] <AD7ZJ> we use a 70cm dowlink too, but it's 5 watts
[22:33] <Darkside> but the guy on the other end had a huge dish
[22:33] <natrium42> somebody needs to launch rudolph, the red nosed payload
[22:33] <Darkside> 5W!!!!!!!!
[22:33] <Darkside> what
[22:33] <fsphil> hehe
[22:33] <eroomde> oh, to have 5W!
[22:34] <fsphil> that's a lotta watt
[22:34] <AD7ZJ> hehe
[22:34] <Darkside> we fly APRS too, but we only use 200mW
[22:34] <eroomde> 1080p :)
[22:34] <natrium42> americans...
[22:34] <Darkside> 300mW*
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside, what I wanted to ask
[22:34] <Darkside> seriously
[22:34] <Darkside> 5W is epic overkill
[22:34] <AD7ZJ> we fly some with 10W as well....
[22:34] <fsphil> yea 5 watts would do full-frame video
[22:34] <AD7ZJ> Idk, it's nice when an antenna breaks on the descent
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside, you once said the batteries by SAFT are good for low current things
[22:34] <Darkside> lardy payloads :P
[22:34] <AD7ZJ> and you can decode on a handheld easily usually
[22:34] <natrium42> the brits use 10mW with picture downlink
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> would they be good to run the receiver?
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> i.e. a FT-790R
[22:35] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: no
[22:35] <Darkside> A) single use, B) max 25mA current draw
[22:35] <fsphil> an FT790 runs for ages on regular rechargables
[22:35] <AD7ZJ> Darkside, the byonics tinytrack?
[22:35] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: nope
[22:35] <Darkside> we make our own
[22:35] <AD7ZJ> aah ok, cool
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:35] <Darkside> ours is about 60g
[22:35] <eroomde> AD7ZJ: so what have you been up to recently?
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> 25 mA
[22:35] <AD7ZJ> eroomde, ANSR or me personally?
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> who in the world needs just 25 mA?
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[22:35] <bertrik> AD7ZJ: have you seen http://spacenear.us/tracker/ ?
[22:35] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: http://rfhead.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/aprs_payloads.jpg
[22:35] <natrium42> hi RocketBoy
[22:36] <daveake> wb RocketBoy :)
[22:36] <AD7ZJ> mA at.... what voltage?
[22:36] <daveake> Saw you in the credits
[22:36] <eroomde> both, if it's ballooney and interesting :)
[22:36] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: its for backup power systems
[22:36] <fsphil> my satellite receiver crashed and I lost the program :( have to wait for iplayer
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> AD7ZJ, those cells are at about 3.7 V
[22:36] <RocketBoy> yeah I was in shot a few times - but blink and you would have missed it
[22:36] <AD7ZJ> Lunar_Lander, aah ok
[22:36] <AD7ZJ> lemme see the links
[22:36] <daveake> Julie thinks she saw you at one point
[22:37] <fsphil> you get 100 steve points for that
[22:37] <AD7ZJ> Darkside, nice....
[22:37] <RocketBoy> yeah - mostly when is was getting sea sick on the boat
[22:37] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: theres a <40g APRS payload in the works
[22:38] <AD7ZJ> and bertrik, yeah I've seen that awhile back, kind of neat
[22:38] <daveake> yuk
[22:38] <AD7ZJ> Darkside, nice.... what sort of downlink?
[22:38] <RocketBoy> yeah - always keep the horizen in view
[22:38] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: that tracker is the main method many people here use to track their flights
[22:38] <AD7ZJ> really
[22:38] <MiniMail> Happy Xmas
[22:39] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: 2M APRS for the APRS Payload, but our primary is 70cm RTTY at 300 baud
[22:39] <AD7ZJ> We usually use aprs.fi or direct reception with kenwood d710s, or soundmodem
[22:39] <Darkside> so the spacenear.us tracker page is so other people can see what is goign on
[22:39] <Darkside> but we have offline trackign in our chase cars
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> what happens if you would try to draw more than 25 mA?
[22:39] <AD7ZJ> yeah
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> boom?
[22:39] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: voltage woud drop i guess
[22:39] <Darkside> dont use them
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:39] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: it blows up your irc client. you can;t do irc anymore
[22:39] <AD7ZJ> what kind of batt is this?
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[22:40] <AD7ZJ> lol
[22:40] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: Saft lithium trisomethingofanother
[22:40] <AD7ZJ> aah
[22:40] <Darkside> designed for backup systems
[22:40] <AD7ZJ> we use regular lipos, same thing the RC guys use
[22:40] <Darkside> that might work if you're drawing current to TX 5W
[22:40] <fsphil> I must get a lipo for my 817
[22:40] <Darkside> doesn't work when you're txing 10mW
[22:40] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside, btw I think I will go from lipo to 2x Energizer UL AA for the cut
[22:40] <Darkside> they freeze
[22:40] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: yes.
[22:41] <AD7ZJ> aah, yeah I suppose
[22:41] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: hell, we used lipos on a crossband repeater once wnd they froze
[22:41] <AD7ZJ> really?
[22:41] <Darkside> so we now only use energizer lithiums
[22:41] <AD7ZJ> we've never had an issue, although I don't think the temp inside drops below 15F or so
[22:41] <Darkside> depends how big you make your payloads
[22:41] <Darkside> our crossband repeater was only 500mW downlink
[22:42] <AD7ZJ> aah, ok
[22:42] <Darkside> good enough for cubesats, good enough for us
[22:42] <Darkside> and it worked fine over the LoS footprint
[22:42] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside, also bought me 5 m of 0.6 mm diameter Kanthal wire
[22:42] <Lunar_Lander> some 5 Ohms/meter
[22:42] <Darkside> was basically 2 motorola GP328's wired back to back
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[22:42] <AD7ZJ> we use maxon data radios in the crossband, 5 watts of TX and that seems to work fine
[22:42] <Darkside> with some additional filtering
[22:42] <Darkside> yeah, tbh 5W is overkill when you have LoS
[22:42] <AD7ZJ> nice
[22:43] <Darkside> and it raises heatsinking issues
[22:43] <AD7ZJ> Yeah, 500 mW is probably plenty
[22:43] <AD7ZJ> but if you've got it.... :-)
[22:43] <Darkside> its more we don't want the payload train to be super heavy
[22:43] <Darkside> by law we can fly a max of 4kg
[22:43] <AD7ZJ> Yeah, lighter weight is good
[22:43] <eroomde> indeed. means more people can do stuff with handhelds
[22:43] <AD7ZJ> ...really?
[22:43] <Darkside> though we usually cap that at 2kg
[22:44] <AD7ZJ> we fly 25 lbs quite regularly
[22:44] <Darkside> which is why you haven't got >35km :P
[22:44] <Darkside> and why the UK guys are pushing 45km
[22:44] <daveake> LL: 5 ohms/metre is too low.
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[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[22:44] <daveake> Well, do the maths
[22:44] <AD7ZJ> yeah, those are student flights, we usually don't get over 100,000 ft on those
[22:45] <AD7ZJ> not sure what that is in km
[22:45] <Darkside> 30km
[22:45] <Lunar_Lander> some 30 km AD7ZJ
[22:45] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:45] <AD7ZJ> aah k
[22:45] <Darkside> but yeah, our primary telemetry payloads are designed to be super light weight and reliably
[22:45] <Darkside> so we have the extra weight for other stuff
[22:45] <AD7ZJ> yeah
[22:45] <AD7ZJ> ours are usually pretty reliable, just not that light
[22:45] <Darkside> i think our combined tracker mass, if we fly both RTTY and APRS, is something like 150-200g
[22:45] <eroomde> i quite like the model of flying lots of student payloads on a big balloon
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> well eroomde gave me that 90 kW/m² figure
[22:46] <eroomde> somewhat like a spacecraft with all the instruments coming from all over
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> and I calculated that with that wire I would get that with a 6 cm piece roundabout
[22:46] <daveake> 6cm of that wire is how many amps?
[22:46] <fsphil> 6cm is a bit long for nichrome on a balloon
[22:46] <Darkside> daveake: batteries will current limit
[22:46] <daveake> I know
[22:47] <Darkside> we use about 5cm on ours fsphil
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:47] <Darkside> though a bit of that is inside the connector
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> OK going slow
[22:47] <Darkside> so maybe its more like 4cm
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> darkside once said that he uses 0.5 mm diameter 4 cm NiCr
[22:47] <fsphil> seems a fair bit
[22:47] <Darkside> not sure if its 0.5mm diameter
[22:47] <Darkside> might be thinner
[22:48] <AD7ZJ> do you guys fly cutdowns on your balloons?
[22:48] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: we do
[22:48] <eroomde> sometimes
[22:48] <AD7ZJ> as a backup or... reqd by law?
[22:48] <Darkside> backup
[22:48] <eroomde> backup
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> well I am trying to
[22:48] <AD7ZJ> how do you do it, by burning through a string?
[22:48] <Darkside> yep
[22:48] <eroomde> some people do it with hotwires
[22:48] <fsphil> a few have used explosives
[22:48] <eroomde> some use explosive links
[22:48] <Darkside> we can't fly pyros here, so nichrome wire for us australians
[22:49] <AD7ZJ> aah ok
[22:49] <AD7ZJ> we used the nichrome wire on a string before, but typically don't fly them
[22:49] <eroomde> i quite like pyros. they seem to just work
[22:49] <Darkside> astrodog: so our cutdown payload is entirely separate, and weighs in at 100g >_>
[22:49] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: *
[22:49] <fsphil> have nichrome cut-downs ever failed?
[22:49] <eroomde> yes
[22:49] <Darkside> fsphil: mine only have when the radio uplink got jammed
[22:49] <eroomde> but i suspect it's a lot to do with the mechanical quality
[22:50] <AD7ZJ> Darkside, do you trigger it via DTMF or what?
[22:50] <Darkside> AD7ZJ: actually using a different system
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[22:50] <Darkside> 500 baud FSK uplink, using a cheap ISM band radio module
[22:50] <Darkside> the point being that that module can do uplink and downlink
[22:50] <AD7ZJ> aah ok
[22:51] <AD7ZJ> so it's its own self contained unit
[22:51] <Darkside> the uplink packet fits within a 3KHz channel
[22:51] <Darkside> so you can TX the packet from a regular rig
[22:51] <AD7ZJ> aah
[22:52] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2kH0O.jpg
[22:52] <Lunar_Lander> OK what power are we aiming for?
[22:52] <Darkside> you can see how big it is there
[22:52] <Darkside> where that buzzer is, is where the nichrome would usually connect
[22:52] <Darkside> http://vimeo.com/46031355 aaaand theres a video of one of the test flights
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[22:53] <Darkside> crap, i need to get moving
[22:53] <Darkside> cya guys
[22:53] <AD7ZJ> Darkside, cool, is that one of your trackers?
[22:54] <AD7ZJ> and ok
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, do you know what makes me wonder?
[22:54] <AD7ZJ> nvm, I see that's your cutdown
[22:55] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: i really don't
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> the same wire on the lab power supply suddenly doesn't work on the mosfet circuit
[22:57] <AD7ZJ> is the mosfet driver tied to the PS's ground?
[22:58] <daveake> LL: A 5cm length of 5ohm/metre wire is, as you can quickly see, 0.25 ohms
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:58] <daveake> Your mosfet on resistance may well be about the same
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> AD7ZJ, there is a 10kOhm resistor from the gate to the source and that is to GND
[22:58] <daveake> Plus the batteries have their own resistance
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> so we have several resistors in series?
[22:59] <daveake> That's what I said
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:59] <daveake> So with a very low resistance wire, which that is, a lot of the heat generated is not in the wire
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> so we need some high resistance wirew
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> -w
[23:00] <eroomde> i might just go an drink a bottle of brandy
[23:00] <eroomde> g'night all
[23:00] <daveake> nn
[23:01] <AD7ZJ> lol
[23:01] <AD7ZJ> 'nite eroomde
[23:02] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: you need to increase your voltage
[23:02] <eroomde> P = V^2 / R
[23:02] <daveake> Note the 2
[23:02] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:02] <eroomde> increasing the resistence only lowers the power as you can plainly see
[23:02] <Lunar_Lander> double the voltage, four times the power
[23:02] <Lunar_Lander> I got those two energizer ultimate lithiums
[23:03] <eroomde> correct
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> so I need to get more voltage
[23:03] <daveake> And higher voltage means you need less current which means the losses in those series resistors are less
[23:03] <eroomde> or find a modfet with a very low on resistence
[23:03] <eroomde> and make sure you drive it fully high by ensuring than Vgs...
[23:04] <eroomde> infact, just search for 'logic level mosfet' when looking for one
[23:04] <AD7ZJ> Why have series resistors, why not just size the nichrome wire/power source in the first place?
[23:05] <eroomde> i think he means there are sources of resistence in series with the hot wire
[23:05] <eroomde> like the mosfet
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> I got this one https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10213
[23:06] <AD7ZJ> aah
[23:06] <daveake> I did
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> the datasheet says "Logic Level N-Channel Power MOSFET"
[23:06] <daveake> s/resistors/resistances/
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> Rds(ON)=09.047 Ohms
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> sorry, Rds(ON)=0.047 Ohms
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[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> is that good?
[23:08] <eroomde> that's nice and low
[23:08] <AD7ZJ> that ought to be enough to drive a nichrome heater
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> might it be an idea to go for 3 AAs?
[23:10] <AD7ZJ> I think I'd put it on a lab PS and adjust the voltage until it's hot like you want, that'll tell you how many batts you need
[23:11] Action: fsphil has asked Santa for a bench psu
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[23:12] <Lunar_Lander> yea that I did on friday
[23:12] <Lunar_Lander> I had something like 4 Volts there
[23:12] <Lunar_Lander> so three batts it is
[23:12] <fsphil> you already knew the answer :p
[23:12] <AD7ZJ> fsphil: lol nice
[23:13] <fsphil> I must get myself a few mosfets
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[23:15] <fsphil> how long has ANSR been running?
[23:17] <AD7ZJ> they've been around quite awhile, 2001 I think
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[23:17] <AD7ZJ> before GPS was available in small modules, they used just CW beacons and DF antennas
[23:17] <eroomde> you've flown gliders right?
[23:18] <eroomde> might have been eoss
[23:18] <AD7ZJ> Before I was in, I think they did
[23:18] <eroomde> one of the student payloads anyway
[23:18] <AD7ZJ> I didn't join 'till 08
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[23:18] <AD7ZJ> I know micheal was working on an autonomous plane
[23:18] <AD7ZJ> to develop into something like that
[23:21] <eroomde> nice
[23:23] <AD7ZJ> They've kind of been afraid to pursue it more though, I guess because of the FAA
[23:23] <AD7ZJ> more stupid gov regulations
[23:24] <AD7ZJ> and the NPRM they've been talking about for the past 2 years regarding RC planes and drones will probably only make that situation worse
[23:24] <Navrac_Work> fsphil are you around?#
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[23:27] <fsphil> hiya Navrac_Work
[23:27] <daveake> _Work ?
[23:27] <fsphil> that's dedication
[23:27] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[23:27] <fsphil> or... you're an elf?!
[23:27] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, btw when you were offline I think I came to the answer
[23:27] <Lunar_Lander> 3 batteries instead of 2
[23:28] <Navrac_Work> hiya, you've played with dominoex before - although fldigi can handle it off frequency well, it doesnt seem to autotune if it drifts - or am i missing something?
[23:28] <fsphil> no that's right, there's no AFC for any of the MFSK modes
[23:28] <Navrac_Work> ok pretending to work so I can do balloon stuff, but it was too long...
[23:28] <Navrac_Work> impressive low noise performance though
[23:29] <fsphil> is it decoding ok for you?
[23:29] <fsphil> I had occasional character errors
[23:29] <Navrac_Work> yep
[23:30] <Navrac_Work> very occasional errors at low signal but nothing that would indicate a fault other than low signal - ie its all random errors
[23:31] <Navrac_Work> The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog 0123456W890 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog 01234567890 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog 012345B7890 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
[23:31] <Navrac_Work> the errors look different each time
[23:31] <fsphil> it was regular on mine -- it seemed to be when there was a large step in the frequency
[23:31] <fsphil> but I didn't work on it any further
[23:32] <Navrac_Work> i think the filtering on the ntx would stop it working for large shifts
[23:32] <fsphil> that might have been it actually
[23:32] <fsphil> what are you using?
[23:32] <Navrac_Work> this is just sticking a varicap on the existing rfm crystal and a coil to take the pwm
[23:32] <fsphil> ah
[23:33] <Navrac_Work> poor mans domino....
[23:33] <fsphil> rather cunning
[23:33] <Navrac_Work> I've done it before with a decent circuit, but i wanted to try to do it with as few components as possible
[23:34] <Navrac_Work> as I wanted to knock up a payload for boxing day and was a bit short on time - this is just a conference badge board with a pot an inductor and a varicap and a 10pf cap
[23:34] <fsphil> the rfm22 has a reference circuit in the datasheet, it should be possible to make a board that includes your modification
[23:35] <fsphil> an rfm22b with an analogue input
[23:35] <Navrac_Work> upu's doing one - but the classy circuit rather than this bodge
[23:35] <eroomde> you reckon a hab launch will become a traditional boxing day thing
[23:35] <eroomde> like fox hunting
[23:35] <fsphil> I'm trying to start a new years tradition
[23:35] <Navrac_Work> would be nice - i get bored on boxing day
[23:36] <eroomde> i play
[23:36] <eroomde> and eat
[23:36] <eroomde> it's a 2 day even withthe 20 or so family
[23:37] <eroomde> so you barely have time to recorver from round one of eating before you have to fight in round 2
[23:37] <fsphil> ooch
[23:37] <fsphil> we've got two as well, first one is close family - second one is a wider gathering
[23:45] <Navrac_Work> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8583837/domino.mp3
[23:45] <Navrac_Work> I get pretty much 100% copy with this level of signal
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[23:48] <fsphil> haha, "The quack brown fox bumped over the lajy dog"
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog. the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog
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[23:51] <SpeedEvil> The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> oops
[23:51] <Navrac_Work> on RTTY with ehe same signal level i'm not getting anything
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[23:51] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if that's special cased in the recognisers
[23:51] <Navrac_Work> lol
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> ( just tried swipe, type, voice.)
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> I find typing much less taxing than swiping mentally.
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> no heavy context switches
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[23:54] <SpeedEvil> sort of on topic.
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> well, the current one.
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> swipe and virtual keyboards are both interesting decoding problems
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> lots of fun statistical decoding can be done.
[23:57] <AD7ZJ> yeah
[23:58] <Navrac_Work> ok compared to RTTY I can decode Dominoex at about -5db
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[00:00] --- Mon Dec 24 2012