highaltitude.log.20121221

[00:01] <gonzo___> still here
[00:01] <gonzo___> though my tumble dryer did stop. Could that be the start of the apocolypse, or just that the timer ran out?
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[00:07] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[00:09] <arko> does anyone know which timezone the world is suppose to end on?
[00:09] <arko> Lunar_Lander: hellos
[00:09] <Lunar_Lander> ah it won't end
[00:09] <arko> damn it
[00:12] <gonzo___> gmt of course, as we invested time
[00:12] <gonzo___> invented
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> I got a real problem though with my cutdown
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> at 3.7V I simply can't get the wire to glow nicely
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> I hooked up the lab power supply to my MOSFET circuit and tried it out
[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> then, I tried 7.4V which would be double lipoly voltage
[00:14] <Darkside> Lunar_Lander: you need more than 3.7v for sure
[00:14] <Darkside> i use 2 AA lithiums
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> the wire lighted up very nicely but the supply said it was giving out some 6 amps
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, next I took two AA lithiums and a battery holder and tried that
[00:15] <gonzo___> wire too thick then
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> but the wire again didn't really do something
[00:15] <Darkside> yes, as i said - use 2x AA lithiums, and use a bit of wire about 4cm long
[00:15] <Darkside> depends on the wire
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> wait
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> let me thinkg
[00:15] <Darkside> the wire i use is quite thin
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> I got a NiCr
[00:15] <Lunar_Lander> and that one is about 0.2 mm in diameter I think
[00:16] <Darkside> thats probably too thin
[00:16] <Darkside> mine is about 0.5mm i think
[00:16] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[00:16] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:16] <Lunar_Lander> yea and my test bit was like only 1 cm in length
[00:16] <Darkside> and it doesn't really have to glow red hot
[00:16] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:16] <Darkside> just has to get hot enough to melt the string
[00:16] <Lunar_Lander> but when it was only slightly red I laid a piece of the balloon cord on it to see what happens
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> it didn't really do anything
[00:17] <Darkside> hrm
[00:17] <Darkside> might be your cord then
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[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:17] <Darkside> maybe try something a bit thinner for the cutdown bit?
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> I got the cord with the US military surplus balloon
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> and I got the cord that RocketBoy sells
[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[00:20] <I2Cfail> http://i.imgur.com/nlnnf.gif
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> thing was that I wanted to try out the cutdown criteria
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> on the flight I want to use the GPS altitude, but here I wanted to use the barometric altitude as I wanted to try out the cutdown at low pressure also
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> so I wired all that up and put it in the decompressable centrifuge and nothing happened with the lipoly
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> and that was yesterday
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> so I sat down today and ran those other test
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> +s
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> but what come
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> *comes through is that it can power a LED over a 470 ohm resistor
[00:21] <Lunar_Lander> but these are a mere 7 mA
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[00:54] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: polythene has a nice controlled melt
[00:55] <Lunar_Lander> as a cord?
[00:57] <SpeedEvil> meltable segment
[00:57] <KT5TK_QRL1> Ready for the next Pico launch: http://kt5tk.tkrahn.com/download/PecanPico/completely_functional_PecanPico_below_18g.jpg
[00:57] <SpeedEvil> though uhmwpe is a decent string
[00:57] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[00:58] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[01:00] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[01:00] <Lunar_Lander> KT5TK_QRL1, cool
[01:01] <KT5TK_QRL1> Many similar components to your board...
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[01:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[02:46] <jakr> why do multistage rockets work betten than a one stage rocket?
[02:46] <jakr> Yo
[02:51] <Darkside> most people here will be asleep
[02:51] <Darkside> the rocket people in particular
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[03:39] <SpeedEvil> jakr: in short, less dead weight
[03:40] <SpeedEvil> if your last stage is 5% of the weight of your first, then the tanks/... of the first stage are enormously heavy in comparison.
[03:43] <SpeedEvil> viewing it another way
[03:43] <SpeedEvil> your fuel decreases over time
[03:44] <SpeedEvil> if you don't stage, then all your structure remains constant, and is an increasing fraction of the overall mass
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[05:51] <arko> evening
[05:52] <SpeedEvil> mooning
[05:52] <SpeedEvil> morning
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[07:38] <nosebleedkt> hi all there
[07:45] <x-f> hi, over there
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[08:10] <arko> the world didnt end
[08:10] <arko> aww
[08:11] <arko> i got bored an did a circuit analysis in under an hour http://wiki.032.la/images/HABEX_Radio_Alpha_Circuit_Analysis.pdf
[08:11] <arko> that was fun
[08:11] <arko> these aprs radios arent all that bad
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[08:13] <nosebleedkt> If you receive this message, the world is still alive!
[08:13] <costyn> nosebleedkt: yay
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[08:18] <x-f> i read that the end of the world be 8 am GMT
[08:18] <x-f> would be*
[08:18] <arko> we have it down to the hour?
[08:18] <fsphil> 8:23 and 15 seconds to be precise*
[08:18] <fsphil> (*made up)
[08:19] <x-f> fsphil knows the details!
[08:19] <fsphil> (*no more so than any of the rest)
[08:19] <arko> beat me to it
[08:19] <arko> hah
[08:21] <fsphil> hmmm... new humble bundle, and steam for linux. I might actually play some games over the holiday
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[08:25] Action: nosebleedkt gets holiday from today up to 2/1/13
[08:28] <radim_OM2AMR> arko 1W for APRS is too much :-D 300 mW from HX-1 is enough for 400km distance from HAB
[08:28] <radim_OM2AMR> anyway, great analysis :-)
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[08:34] <costyn> arko: you worked on MSL?
[08:36] <costyn> arko: was just looking through your website, pretty cool stuff :)
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[08:59] <fsphil> hehe, https://twitter.com/Design_For_Life/status/282044987053572096/photo/1
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[09:01] <jcoxon> Good day for a pico...
[09:02] <costyn> fsphil: :D
[09:02] <x-f> seems legit
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[09:20] <gonzo___> looks like it hwere too. Though not sure where the winds are going
[09:21] <gonzo___> so close to the sea, it halves the number of usebable HAB days
[09:21] <g7ogxchris> anabatic katabatic lol
[09:26] <gonzo___> Was actually thinking more of the average winds over the country. So half of the directions are wet
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[09:45] <fsphil> nice and calm here today
[09:45] <fsphil> still wet though
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[09:47] <eroomde> calm here too
[09:47] <eroomde> i suspect i shall give up somewhere around lunchtime
[09:48] <fsphil> no floods over in ox?
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[09:52] <x-f> i see the sun! after weeks of clouds and snow, i see the sun!
[09:53] <daveake> That's the hole made by the asteroid predicted by the Mayans
[09:54] <x-f> don't care, got light
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[09:55] <eroomde> split!
[09:55] <eroomde> kapow micheal bay
[09:55] <x-f> so it's an asteroid after all? no Planet X / Nibiru?
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[10:08] <UpuWork> x-f http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJjQMwEjC1I
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[10:14] <daveake> hah
[10:14] <daveake> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zBqRLK_ESs
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[10:19] <fsphil> hehe, that Neil Tyson video won't play... WE'RE DOOMED
[10:19] <x-f> UpuWork, i was kidding :|
[10:19] <fsphil> hmm.. the brian cox one won't play either
[10:21] <daveake> This one work? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw9K0tI9mxc
[10:21] <fsphil> nope
[10:22] <fsphil> odd
[10:22] <daveake> spooky
[10:22] <fsphil> a sign?
[10:23] <x-f> new world order
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[10:29] <daveake> It's started ... https://twitter.com/Design_For_Life/status/282044987053572096/photo/1
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[10:36] <UpuWork> no sound ?
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[10:42] <x-f> -9 degrees, i was expecting the end to be a bit.. warmer
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[10:43] <x-f> -20 next night
[10:43] Action: x-f sighs.
[10:44] <fsphil> lucky you
[10:44] <fsphil> it's oddly warm here for this time of ear
[10:44] <fsphil> year*
[10:45] <x-f> i can say the same - lucky you :)
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[10:50] <gonzo___> 'ear 'ear
[10:50] <fsphil> and a happy new ear
[10:50] <gonzo___> sounda good
[10:50] <gonzo___> s
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[11:03] <SpeedEvil> it is 5.2c here
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[12:42] <anerDev> hi
[12:42] <anerDev> I have a question
[12:43] <daveake> go on
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> hi
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> I have a flavour,
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[13:00] <Navrac_Work> I have a keyboard
[13:01] <fsphil> I was wondering how you did that
[13:01] <Navrac_Work> well i might have had a microsoft surface - in which case it would explain the 15 mins it took to write it
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[13:50] <WillDuckworth> hey Upu - any joy on those alternative transmitter crystals?
[13:51] <UpuWork> hi Will 1 sec phone
[13:52] <UpuWork> Yeah we got them working
[13:52] <UpuWork> but they are expensive
[13:53] <UpuWork> £30 on top of the cost of the NTX2
[13:53] <WillDuckworth> blimey - any noticable stability improvements?
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[13:54] <UpuWork> Mick Cain has the only one we've done
[13:54] <UpuWork> not had any feedback
[13:55] <WillDuckworth> ok - will be interesting
[13:55] <UpuWork> its an expensive way to get it
[13:55] <UpuWork> just insulate well and any drift is managable
[13:56] <WillDuckworth> yeah - found that on the last flight - it was pretty stable
[13:56] <WillDuckworth> just trying to keep it minimal - trying alternative antenna designs too
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[14:23] <griffonbot> Received email: gonzo_ "[UKHAS] Re: Bonzo - pico launch Sat 22nd Dec"
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[14:38] <daveake> https://twitter.com/kabooooooooom
[14:39] <lz1dev> lol
[14:41] <costyn> haah
[14:42] <UpuWork> If anyones interested I now carry the US and Oz versions of the HX1 for APRS
[14:45] Nick change: iamdanw_ -> iamdanw
[15:00] <Laurenceb> http://billioncountdown.com/
[15:00] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:02] <x-f> that is not something our civilization should be proud of
[15:02] <Laurenceb> the mayans were right
[15:03] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/dRxLv.jpg
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[15:05] <costyn> Laurenceb: relevant
[15:06] <x-f> http://i.imgur.com/XL9H8.gif
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[15:07] <costyn> x-f: haha
[15:07] <costyn> x-f: perfect reactiongif
[15:08] <costyn> 3 minutes until the end of the world
[15:08] <costyn> according to that counter
[15:09] <x-f> work day is over, i'll be outside by then
[15:10] <costyn> the countdown clock and the actual views on youtube are quite mismatched
[15:11] <zyp> because the actual view counter aren't updated live
[15:11] <zyp> isn't*
[15:11] <costyn> no, but every 4 hours or so
[15:11] <craag> It just updated. Another 15 minutes apparently.
[15:12] <costyn> kinda lame, should be polled more often as it gets closer to the number
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[15:28] <costyn> Laurenceb: getting a porn dating site now on that gangnam countdown site
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[15:31] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:31] <costyn> Laurenceb: someone's cashing in on getting a lot of views
[15:32] <Randomskk> haha epic troll
[15:32] <Randomskk> that url is all over the place
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[15:46] <nigelvh> Morning all
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[15:58] <fsphil> afternoon nigelvh
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[16:43] <eroomde> arko: yo
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[17:03] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
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[17:35] <arko> morning eroomde
[17:35] <arko> wass up
[17:35] <nigelvh> The christmas spirit
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[17:57] <eroomde> arko nigelvh : yes
[17:57] <eroomde> the christmas spirit
[17:58] <eroomde> home tomorrow
[17:58] <arko> 4 day weekend!!!
[17:58] <arko> woo!!
[17:58] <arko> sorry, im excited
[17:58] <eroomde> 2 week holiday
[17:58] <eroomde> woo!
[17:58] <eroomde> off now till jan 4th
[17:58] <arko> DAMN
[17:58] <arko> they make us work to hard here :(
[17:59] <eroomde> government funded hey :p
[17:59] <eroomde> then i have a small 4 week holiday from jan 21st
[17:59] <eroomde> i will forget what work is, i suspect
[17:59] <arko> i think the gov funded joke doesn't apply to all nasa people
[18:00] <arko> oh yeah, you're going to be here soo
[18:00] <arko> n
[18:00] <eroomde> yep
[18:00] <eroomde> am looking forward to it
[18:02] <arko> :)
[18:03] <eroomde> do you have the concept of 'boxing day' (dec 26th) in the US?
[18:06] <nigelvh> Not as a holiday, no
[18:07] <nigelvh> Many places give you the 24th off, pretty much everywhere gives the 25th, but that's it.
[18:07] <arko> no we dont
[18:08] <arko> nigelvh is right though
[18:08] <arko> most people take their vacation hours around now
[18:08] <nigelvh> Also most places get the 1st off too
[18:08] <arko> yeah
[18:09] <nigelvh> The US in general has far fewer holidays, and workers earn fewer vacation days than elsewhere.
[18:09] <arko> we suck :(
[18:10] <arko> but we have nasa
[18:10] <arko> so we dont suck
[18:10] <arko> and good food
[18:10] <nigelvh> For example, I earn 14 vacation days a year. And have to be with the company I'm at for five years before I start earning even a little bit more.
[18:11] <arko> and jeans, and cigars, and american flags, and cowboys, and we killed/took all the land from the indians which were really natives of the land before, blah blah
[18:11] <eroomde> but jeans though
[18:12] <eroomde> yeah the holiday situation is something i don;t think i'd enjoy
[18:12] <eroomde> i like my 6 weeks
[18:12] <eroomde> i often don;t take all 6
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[18:12] <nigelvh> I might not take all of it if I had three times as much vacation time.
[18:12] <eroomde> bit i like to be able to have a substantial 2 or 3 week holiday away somewhere, and then do things like christmas/new year and a few long weekends here and there
[18:12] <eroomde> but*
[18:13] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:13] <eroomde> evening jcoxon
[18:14] <nigelvh> Why cant the world be more like star trek, Just work for the betterment of society.
[18:14] <nigelvh> I think we'll be a lot closer once we get replicators.
[18:15] <nigelvh> Once goods are free, there's less need for money
[18:15] <nick_> Goods can't be free because resources are scarce.
[18:15] <nigelvh> Unless you have replicators
[18:15] <nick_> Replicators don't make things for free, do they?
[18:16] <nigelvh> As I recall, it's an energy->matter conversion
[18:16] <nick_> Presumably you have to provide some raw materials, energy, they take time, etc
[18:17] <nigelvh> Sun provides nearly limitless energy, replicators make everything else, seems reasonable to me.
[18:17] <nigelvh> Sun/fusion
[18:18] <nick_> Fusion won't ever be free
[18:18] <nick_> The Sun does provide a decent amount of energy though
[18:18] <nick_> But of course harvesting it takes resources
[18:18] <nigelvh> Which you can make with replicators.
[18:21] <jcoxon> oooo its sp9uob launch tomorrow
[18:21] <nigelvh> Fancy
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[18:39] <x-f> jcoxon, he didn't get the permission yet, afaik
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[18:46] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:47] <jcoxon> x-f, oh
[18:47] <jcoxon> thats not cool
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[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> today I tried the cutdown once more and I think the 0.2 mm wire is just too thin
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> as Darkside said yesterday
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> and as he uses 0.5 mm wire
[18:50] <arko> what material is the wire?
[18:50] <arko> nichrome?
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> today I received about 2km of 0.08mm tungsten wire
[18:50] <arko> ah
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> mine is nichrome
[18:50] <arko> oh cool
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> and darkside's too I think
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> would work well as cutdowns I guess
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> eBay is evil.
[18:51] <arko> interesting thing about nichrome, you can't export it israel
[18:51] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: what makes you think it's too thin?
[18:51] <arko> at least from the usa
[18:51] <eroomde> what is the power dissipation through the surface of the wire per square metre?
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> 'but it's only 10 quid more to get more than you will use in a lifetime
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> darkside said his wire is 0.5 mm in diameter and 4 cm long and he uses that with two energizers
[18:52] <Lunar_Lander> for my wire the wire would have to be shortened to 6 mm
[18:52] <eroomde> well, let's not do woowoo and hand waving
[18:52] <eroomde> let's working it out with numbers
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> woo woo is fun!
[18:52] <Lunar_Lander> yes, that I did
[18:52] <eroomde> you want about 90kW/m^2
[18:52] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[18:53] <eroomde> to reliably melt through nylon without getting too hot from ametalurgy point of view
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> that means it will glow red?
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> and not like bright orange or so
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> hmm. .1mm square wire therefore 30w ish per m.
[18:54] <arko> nichrome glows?
[18:54] <arko> at melting
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> yes
[18:54] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: no you don;t want anything glowing
[18:54] <arko> or, at least, the start of melting
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> bright orange
[18:54] <arko> anything glows
[18:54] <arko> oh neat
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> so hot enough to melt but not glowing
[18:54] <eroomde> yeah
[18:55] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[18:56] <arko> what device are you using to activate the cutdown? do you have telemetry you send it over? separate device?
[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> the idea is that my arduino activates this MOSFET https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10213
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> and then the current from the cutdown battery can flow into the wire
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> and I thought of hardcoding criteria in
[18:58] <nigelvh> If you're hardcoding it, make sure you plan the logic well
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> and test it!
[18:59] <arko> what remotely starts it?
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[19:00] <nigelvh> For example Lunar_Lander, if you have a cutdown based on a GPS position, make sure your code can handle losing GPS lock without cutting down before you actually wanted to.
[19:00] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[19:00] <Lunar_Lander> for example an idea is to set a max. altitude
[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> arko, please ask again
[19:01] <nigelvh> As in "don't cut down if above X meters?"
[19:01] <arko> ohhhh
[19:01] <arko> i thought it was an "oh shit abort" cut off
[19:01] <arko> something that takes a signal from someone on the ground and cuts it
[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> no, like "cut down if above X"
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> no, as no one of us (yet) has a ham license (using the NTX2) we can't do any uplinks
[19:02] <nigelvh> Keep in mind you may not reach X, so if your goal is to test the cutdown, then consider your choice there carefully.
[19:02] <nick_> Why would you want to cut down at a certain altitude?
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:02] <arko> overfill
[19:03] <Lunar_Lander> it was the idea of my team to limit the flight to 20 km on the first ascent
[19:03] <nigelvh> Is there a reason to?
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[19:03] <arko> worth the extra 11km to get nice pictures :)
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[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> and what if the balloon fails to burst?
[19:06] <nigelvh> Is there a reason you want to limit height?
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> ah they thought that it would be a good idea to limit the altitude on the first one and I agreed as that sounded good
[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> like limiting the drift distance and so on
[19:07] <nigelvh> The question is why?
[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> like limiting the drift distance and so on
[19:08] <nigelvh> If you want to limit the drift distance, set a GPS limit.
[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:08] <nigelvh> This is for a school project right?
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> university
[19:10] <nigelvh> Your team and your report are going to look really good if you have the reasoning and decisions well thought out and defeneded. If you're worried about recovery, set a GEO-fence in an area you know you could have a good chance of recovering in. If you're looking for data at a specific altitude, find a way to make it hang there longer. Cutting down when you could go higher and get more data "because it sounds like a go
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[19:12] <nigelvh> Make sure you're making the right choices for the right reasons, and can explain those reasons, and the reason why your choice is the best solution.
[19:13] <nigelvh> (Disclaimer: I volunteer with a university ballooning program, and often have students say that want to do something "because it's cool" or "because it sounds like a good idea." As an instructor, we don't feel like you're getting much out of that.
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander> sometimes I think I am not a good physicist
[19:15] <nigelvh> Being a good physicist is entirely separate. Instructors want to see the thought process behind your decisions. Even if your decision ends up failing or being the wrong one, the fact that you thought it through, examined the options, and choose what you thought was the best at the time is more important.
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:20] <nigelvh> I don't mean to harp on you, or say your choices are wrong. Just make sure you can explain why you made them.
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> thank you
[19:24] <arko> http://www.batteryshowdown.com/results-lo.html
[19:24] <arko> really cool
[19:24] <nigelvh> I'm not sure saying "You're welcome" for lecturing you is appropriate, but the critical thinking behind these decisions is important, and will help you a lot.
[19:24] <arko> if no one here hasn't seen it already
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander> that is true
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> "Cutting down when you could go higher and get more data "because it sounds like a g"
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> the sentence ends there at my place here
[19:26] <nigelvh> The rest of that was "Cutting down when you could go higher and get more data "because it sounds like a good idea" isn't very impressive.
[19:27] <nigelvh> I must have typed too long.
[19:27] <eroomde> arko: good data thanks
[19:27] <arko> :)
[19:27] <arko> http://www.batteryshowdown.com/index.html
[19:27] <arko> they also did high drain
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> no problem
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> may I ask what ideas people have of which they say "because it's cool"?
[19:29] <nigelvh> We often have students wanting to fly cameras. We're not opposed to cameras, but because the class is aimed at getting students involved in science, we want there to be a reason why a camera would help them get better data.
[19:29] <eroomde> blowing up bits of moulding fruit with french bangers
[19:29] <eroomde> firecrackers in american
[19:29] <eroomde> going home with some girl you just met
[19:29] <eroomde> lager
[19:30] <eroomde> sliding around on olished wooden floors in thick wool socks
[19:30] <eroomde> air guitar while driving
[19:30] <eroomde> black soldermask with gold plating
[19:31] <Lunar_Lander> ROFL
[19:31] <eroomde> a leica M9 with 35mm sumicron lens
[19:31] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, that is true
[19:33] <eroomde> the dominos pizza i might now go and have
[19:33] <eroomde> with some of the aforementioned lager
[19:33] <eroomde> and maybe watch a film
[19:33] <eroomde> the perfect not-another-christmas-party-please evening
[19:34] <nigelvh> In summary, our class is aimed at the student groups coming up with a proposal for the science they want to do, and how they'd do it, and how much it would cost. We either approve their plan, or ask them to improve it. After which they build it, and it's tested in the thermal chamber to show it's good a decent chance of working, then we fly it.
[19:34] <arko> eroomde: lol wut
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, that sounds good, and I would like to professionalize our system too
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> like we do a pressure test and today I did one more cold soak test
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> but like to have a real schedule for stuff
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> also mostly I do the stuff on my own
[19:35] <bertrik> what's a cold soak test good for?
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> on Thursdays one of my team mates comes and we work several hours in the evening
[19:35] <nigelvh> Weak solder joints often show themselves when thermal cycled.
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> on wednesdays the other two do some stuff for half an hour
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> exactly
[19:36] <eroomde> arko: just switching to holiday mode
[19:36] <eroomde> it's been a long time since i had one
[19:36] <arko> haha
[19:37] <eroomde> i've not had more than a single day off in a row for months i don't think
[19:37] <eroomde> i seem to always end up in the office on one or the other of the weekend days
[19:37] <nigelvh> Anyway, it's lunch time for me, so I'll be back in a while.
[19:38] <eroomde> the big bang theory
[19:38] <eroomde> i don;t get what's funny
[19:39] <arko> the tv show?
[19:39] <eroomde> yes
[19:39] <eroomde> i have watched a few episodes now
[19:39] <eroomde> but
[19:39] <eroomde> ...
[19:39] <arko> it's very sad
[19:40] <eroomde> lots of comedy does uk -> US
[19:40] <eroomde> i would like a us -> uk bing bang theory maybe
[19:40] <eroomde> a bit darker and less goofy
[19:41] <eroomde> i.e. the inverse of the usual atlantic transform
[19:41] <arko> i remember a few jokes being funny only because it was like the first time an interal and derivative were mentioned in a tv show
[19:41] <arko> then it became a soap
[19:41] <arko> its all about relationships
[19:41] <arko> misrespresenting what "nerds" do
[19:41] <eroomde> i want to find some more comedy
[19:41] <arko> it's a joke
[19:41] <eroomde> oh oh!
[19:41] <eroomde> i missed peep show on sunday
[19:41] <eroomde> result
[19:42] <arko> i like the IT Crowd
[19:42] <arko> some are weak, but i like most of them
[19:42] <eroomde> i like your coffee cup collection
[19:42] <arko> thanks
[19:42] <arko> two days of finishing code
[19:42] <arko> heh
[19:43] <arko> apparently something im working on is going to become an ISO standard
[19:43] <arko> O_O SOON
[19:43] <eroomde> this is what we consumed in one evening at work
[19:43] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vzzeuxd07exr0w2/2012-12-18%2015.46.11.jpg
[19:43] <arko> I HATE YOU
[19:43] <eroomde> not so much work got done, i must admit
[19:43] <arko> why cant we have wine :(
[19:43] <eroomde> but not bad for a company of 4 people :)
[19:44] <eroomde> you can;t have any wine!??!?
[19:44] <arko> hire me and lets make it 5
[19:44] <eroomde> how is one meant to function
[19:44] <eroomde> engineering without wine?
[19:44] <arko> dude, gov property
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[19:44] <arko> they barely let the msl team have champagen
[19:44] <arko> when it lande
[19:44] <arko> d
[19:44] <eroomde> we actually got up to 12 with +1s and a couple of close friends of the company
[19:44] <arko> did the others other than the core EDL team get any? nope
[19:44] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5ft4apwj4ghonv/2012-12-19%2012.56.39.jpg
[19:45] <arko> we had to watch them drink on lab
[19:45] <arko> festive
[19:45] <eroomde> note the hovering rocket christmas tree in the background
[19:45] <arko> i like the setting
[19:45] <arko> haha
[19:45] <eroomde> yeah it's in the middle of our workshop
[19:45] <arko> hahahaha, christmas lights
[19:45] <arko> <-- jelly
[19:45] <eroomde> the only space we had that would hole a table(s) that size
[19:45] <eroomde> also the flower vases, noite
[19:46] <eroomde> note*
[19:46] <eroomde> one is a calbration nozzle for the lapcat rocket engines
[19:46] <arko> nice mill
[19:46] <eroomde> the other is a v large conical flask
[19:46] <eroomde> that's betty bridgeport
[19:46] <arko> i just noticed
[19:46] <eroomde> she is lovely
[19:46] <eroomde> except her cnc control system is prone to cosmic rays
[19:46] <eroomde> there's a lathe to her left
[19:46] <arko> bridgeports for life
[19:46] <g7ogxchris> someone's taken the trouble to lay table nice
[19:46] <eroomde> and chopsaw, bandsaw, general metal bashing area
[19:47] <eroomde> g7ogxchris: yep
[19:47] <eroomde> i like to do these thigns properly
[19:47] <eroomde> but once a year afterall :)
[19:47] <g7ogxchris> makes all the differance
[19:47] <eroomde> the ceiling to baubales actually looked really nice in the eve
[19:48] <g7ogxchris> bonzo launch posponed ;@{
[19:48] <eroomde> when it was only underlit by candles
[19:49] <eroomde> arko: but seriously
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[19:49] <eroomde> you get to 7pm
[19:49] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about the smallest possible neutrally bouyany ballloo
[19:49] <SpeedEvil> balloon
[19:49] <eroomde> you've been thinking really hard about something
[19:49] <eroomde> your colleague is also still there
[19:49] <eroomde> you need a glass of red and a chat just to start bouncing ideas
[19:50] <eroomde> lots of good ideas have come from those sessions
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> soft music, subdued lighting.
[19:51] <eroomde> that comes later
[19:51] <eroomde> this is feet up and within seated drawing range of the whiteboard
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> it only goes really wrong when you wake up in the morning cuddled next to them on a pile of parachutes.
[19:52] <arko> eroomde: reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIv96reVlAE
[19:52] <arko> The Inebriati
[19:53] <arko> we have too many laws about drinking while working
[19:53] <arko> so it becomes a liability blah blah
[19:53] <arko> its stupid
[19:54] <Upu> arko
[19:54] <Upu> can you do me a favour as you're based on the other side of the pond
[19:54] <arko> yes? maybe?
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> hello upu
[19:55] <Upu> Can you see this web site ? www.special-risks.com
[19:55] <Upu> its an insurance broker
[19:55] <eroomde> very nearly two drinks is precisely right
[19:56] <arko> yep!
[19:56] <arko> Upu: yes
[19:56] <Upu> thanks
[19:57] <arko> i usually use proxys
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[19:57] <arko> good way to test
[19:57] <eroomde> Upu: my mechanical pencil has been despatched
[19:57] <arko> such as right now
[19:57] <eroomde> i am excited
[19:57] <Upu> excellent eroomde
[19:57] <arko> proxy out to that site
[19:57] <Upu> solid brass
[19:57] <arko> from within the us
[19:57] <Upu> ok thx arko
[19:57] <arko> yep
[19:58] <arko> eroomde: heard of jetpens?
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[19:59] <eroomde> nope?
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[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, btw you said 90 kW/m² earlier
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> but then the calculation stopped
[20:00] <eroomde> what calculation?
[20:01] <eroomde> you just have to work out the power per unit area of your hotwire
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander> for the right wire
[20:01] <eroomde> and compare it to that value
[20:01] <eroomde> the end
[20:02] <eroomde> arko: http://www.rotring.com/en/265-rapid-pro-black-mechanical-pencil-05mm-3501170949351.html
[20:02] <eroomde> this is the one i got
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:02] <eroomde> i used to have one
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander> I think my head will burst soon
[20:02] <eroomde> but it went for a walk a couple of years ago
[20:02] <eroomde> upu inspired me to repurchase
[20:02] <arko> eroomde: http://www.jetpens.com/
[20:02] <Upu> gorgeous bit of engineering
[20:02] <Upu> solid brass
[20:02] <Upu> last forever*
[20:02] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: it's easy. you're doing physics, you'll have no problem
[20:02] <arko> eroomde: AWESOME!
[20:02] <Upu> *unless you drop it and bend the nib
[20:02] <eroomde> 1) the hot wire has a surface area that you can calculate, right
[20:03] <arko> I have that one!
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:03] <eroomde> it has a diamater, it has a length, so you can calculate the surface area
[20:03] <Upu> Mine is 20 years old
[20:03] <eroomde> also, the hot wire dissipates an amount of power
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:03] <eroomde> you can measure the resistence of your hotwire
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:03] <eroomde> if you know the voltage across it, P = V^2 / R
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> and then we know the power via that
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> sorry
[20:03] <eroomde> so, you can figure out the power going through it in W and the area in m^2
[20:03] <eroomde> divide one number by the other
[20:04] <eroomde> and you've got your heat flux
[20:04] <eroomde> Upu: i shall make a special effort to keep hold of this one
[20:04] <arko> you're going to love that pencil
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:04] <eroomde> then maybe you can send me a card after 20 years
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> sorry
[20:04] <eroomde> like centegenarioans get a card from the queen
[20:04] <Upu> lol
[20:04] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: no need to apologise
[20:05] <eroomde> i'm not telling you off
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[20:05] <eroomde> right, pizza and cobra quest
[20:05] <eroomde> bbiab
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[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, please write if you are back
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> and I hope your lunch is good :)
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, hope your pizza is good
[20:17] <natrium42> good day, sir Lunar_Lander
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:18] <natrium42> what is the news?
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[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> ah the balloon is almost done but the cutdown not
[20:21] <nigelvh> Back from lunch now.
[20:22] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> I wanted to ask what like happens if someone joins the balloon group
[20:23] <nigelvh> What do you mean?
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> is it like that he/she brings an experiment proposal and that is discussed then or so?
[20:24] <nigelvh> Well, it's a class, so at the start of the quarter, the students are broken into groups, then the group comes up with a proposal.
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> what happens next?
[20:26] <nigelvh> Then the proposal is presented to the instructors, and the instructors either accept the proposal, or make requests for changes.
[20:27] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:27] <Lunar_Lander> and given that a proposal is OK, you said it is built and thermally tested
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[20:28] <natrium42> lol http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/05/greeks-say-they-are-hardest-working-european-nation?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/eoy/advent21
[20:29] <eroomde> mission accomplished
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> is that correct as I said it nigelvh ?
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, cool
[20:29] <nigelvh> Yeah, once the proposal is OK'd, the schematics get drawn up and looked over by the instructors, then parts are purchased, then they're assembled, then they're tested to make sure they work, then they're thermally tested, then they're flown.
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, to verify once more, we look for at least 90 kW per m²?
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, yea
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> who finances that?
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> the university?
[20:30] <nigelvh> There's a course fee that's assessed as part of tuition when you join the class, so that pays for the parts, the balloons, the helium, and the vehicle costs to get the students to the launch site.
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:31] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: about that yes
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> and is the data then compiled and reports written?
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, thanks
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[20:32] <eroomde> that's the figure i go for in the hotwires for slicing open helium blimps (to stop them flying into airpsace if they unmoor - a product we sell)
[20:32] <nigelvh> Yes, at the end, the data is compiled and the students write reports on what their data means, or if their experiment failed, the report is on why it failed.
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:32] <eroomde> and have used it for nylon string just fine too
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> sounds good
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, yeah, that sounds good as well
[20:32] <eroomde> nigelvh: it sounds like a v good scheme
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> is there a website of the group as such?
[20:33] <nigelvh> Not publicly accessible
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[20:33] <nigelvh> There's a university site, but it's password protected.
[20:34] <nigelvh> Also, as a note, the course has telemetry packages which handle the radio stuff. The student payloads only need to output a voltage on a wire we connect to the class provided telemetry package.
[20:34] <nigelvh> Asking the students to program a microcontroller/radio system is too much.
[20:34] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[20:35] <nigelvh> Most student payloads consist of some batteries, a sensor, and an op-amp.
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> so there is a mainframe that you provide
[20:35] <nigelvh> Yes
[20:35] <eroomde> there are many ways to f-up an op amp circuit
[20:35] <eroomde> i guess you have seen
[20:35] <eroomde> the ingenuity of students
[20:35] <nigelvh> Yes, yes there are. Especially when the students choose really high impedance sensors so you need rather sensitive op-amps.
[20:36] <eroomde> mmm
[20:36] <eroomde> the one i saw the other day was someone had put the 8-pin chip holder into the veryboard backwards
[20:36] <eroomde> and some other person in their team made the logical assumption that people put chip holders in the right way round
[20:36] <nigelvh> That does happen
[20:37] <eroomde> and thus badness
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> like there was a fight?
[20:37] <nigelvh> Before the students get to building their payloads we do have a number of canned labs to help them learn the basics of electronics
[20:38] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: no
[20:38] <nigelvh> We teach them about resistors and capacitors, Ohm's law, RC circuits, 555's, Op-Amps, then they get to their payloads.
[20:38] <eroomde> it rarely gets physical
[20:38] <eroomde> harhar
[20:39] <eroomde> just lots of woe in the debugging, people assuming the opamp is correct and it must be a mistake somewhere else
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[20:39] <nigelvh> The instructors get VERY good at diagnosing errors, because every group makes a few.
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[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:40] <joph> nigelvh, how long do you teach them? :D
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> that sounds good to have that training program
[20:41] <joph> we would add a camera :D
[20:41] <nigelvh> The class runs over the course of a university quarter.
[20:41] <eroomde> instructing really is the best way of learning
[20:41] <nigelvh> The first part of the class is teaching them the basics of electronics.
[20:41] <joph> witch a tele lens :D
[20:41] <eroomde> you get so good at being analytical
[20:41] <eroomde> the following sentence will sound outrageously nerdy, i apologise, but
[20:42] <joph> nigelvh, aren't they technical students how already know the basics?
[20:42] <eroomde> today at lunch i had to share this awesome algorithm i found for calculating prime numbers efficiently, over lunch with my two colleagues
[20:42] <eroomde> and in whiteboarding it made several realisations about subtleties i had missed up to that point
[20:42] <eroomde> and yes whiteboard is a verb
[20:42] <nigelvh> Nope, we take students from all majors. We teach them what resistors and capacitors are, all the way through 555's and op-amps, then they design and build their payloads.
[20:42] <joph> i see
[20:43] <joph> is it kind of an extra course?
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[20:43] <nigelvh> Most majors don't require it no. It ends up being an elective for most students.
[20:43] <joph> first semester or older students?
[20:44] <nigelvh> Anyone
[20:44] <joph> i see
[20:44] <joph> probably a economics student wouldn't join it ;)
[20:44] <Lunar_Lander> and may I ask what sorts of ideas people have?
[20:44] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:45] <nigelvh> We have students from all majors, art students, music, math, the sciences of course, etc.
[20:45] <joph> art students at a balloon project?
[20:45] <joph> more painting than electronic :P
[20:46] <nigelvh> Some students do enjoy decorating their payloads, but the course is about the science goals, so they have to build something to measure something.
[20:47] <joph> measuring the velocity of the fall of some parts from the payload *g*
[20:47] <eroomde> when we did outreach stuff which school children, like teddies in space, we never said 'this is physics'
[20:47] <eroomde> 'and now this is chemistry'
[20:47] <eroomde> 'and now for some maths'
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> and biology!
[20:48] <eroomde> never put a label on it as that just puts large chunks of people off
[20:48] <eroomde> instead it's just a question of encouraging people to understand a problem and use tools they know to solve it
[20:48] <nigelvh> We often have students do simple things like measuring light intensity in different wavelength regions, or temperature/pressure, or a geiger counter, we've had students attempt to measure wind direction and speed, we've had students try to do gas sensors, some more advanced students have tried to measure how RF propogates, etc.
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> etc is interesting
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:49] <nigelvh> Speed of sound at altitude
[20:49] <eroomde> but this was 11 and 12 year olds
[20:49] <joph> so you are a professor?
[20:49] <nigelvh> No, I volunteer my time with the class to help the students
[20:49] <joph> i see
[20:49] <eroomde> well, raising this nice polich lager in your direction nigelvh
[20:49] <eroomde> good stuff
[20:50] <eroomde> polish*
[20:50] <joph> some kind of scientific assistant
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[20:50] <nigelvh> So the professor will do lectures and talk about the stuff, and then various assistants/volunteers will come in for the lab sections to work directly with student groups to help/guide them.
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> how many experiments are there per balloon?
[20:57] <nigelvh> Generally 5 or 6, and we generally do 2 balloons. The rules here in the US limit the weight to below 11 pounds, and we generally get pretty close.
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> xD sky truck!
[20:58] <nigelvh> Alright, I've got a meeting here at work. Back in a while
[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[21:01] <eroomde> "why can't dobby move into the flat so we can all have a lovely time... just sitting indoors with some strong cheddar."
[21:01] <eroomde> i am mark from peep show
[21:08] <eroomde> oh holy fuck
[21:08] <eroomde> my friend is in peep show
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[21:32] <nigelvh> Back
[21:33] <eroomde> wb
[21:34] <nigelvh> Thanks
[21:34] <nigelvh> Meeting was successful. We had chocolates.
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> wb nigelvh
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> nigelvh, so your project sounds good
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> I also tried to do some outreach
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> but that was back about
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> more than one year
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> so that was far too early I think
[21:35] <eroomde> balloon-related?
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> there was a physics teacher who had been at my old high-school
[21:35] <eroomde> mmm. helps to have done a couple of launches so you stumble upon the inevitable mistakes
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> now she leads the "student's research center" here at the city
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> and some of the kids there like participate in RoboCup and so on
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> and I had a talk there to get people interested
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[21:43] <arko> mmm sushi
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander_> eroomde, did you get what I wrote?
[21:43] <arko> it's funny to eat around the lab, all the resturants are full of coworkers
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander_> xD
[21:44] <lz1dev> hey, the world is still here
[21:44] <lz1dev> habbing can continue as normal
[21:44] <arko> srsly
[21:44] <nigelvh> It's not nighttime over here yet. Quit ruining the suprise!
[21:44] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander_: which bit?
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander_> about that wire I ran a calculation on
[21:45] <lz1dev> nigelvh: sorry for ruining your end world schedule
[21:45] <nigelvh> I will (probably) never forgive you.
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[21:46] <lz1dev> I'll take the odds on that
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander_> I just see on zeusbot that it didn't get through
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander_> <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, I did a calculation for a 0.6 mm diameter wire which is 5 cm long
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander_> <Lunar_Lander> and has a specific resistance of 1.45 ohm*mm²/m
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander_> <Lunar_Lander> that gives 0.249 Ohms, and 36 Watts
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander_> and 36 W/188 mm²=190 kW/m²
[21:47] <eroomde> cool
[21:47] <eroomde> so that should be definitely plenty
[21:47] <eroomde> you could probably drop it down a bit
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander_> so that wire is good?
[21:48] <eroomde> sounds like it yep
[21:48] <eroomde> should be comfortably enough
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander_> OK
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander_> so I could like set that up and then have it try to melt a cord?
[21:50] <eroomde> yep
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander_> ok
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[22:01] <Lunar_Lander_> 6 cm is good too
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander_> but 8 cm gives 75 kW/m²
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[22:08] <Lunar_Lander_> eroomde, I just calculated that it will draw about 8 amperes
[22:08] <Lunar_Lander_> the mosfet is rated as "60 V, 30 A"
[22:08] <Lunar_Lander_> so it should be able to handle that?
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[22:09] <eroomde> i'm assuming i don't need to answer that
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[22:12] <Lunar_Lander_> yea I was just asking for the logs
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[22:18] <Lunar_Lander_> eroomde, I just ran the calculations for the setup at university
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander_> for that I would get 144 kW/m²
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander_> that is strange
[22:22] <eroomde> did it not work?
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander_> no
[22:23] <eroomde> nylon string?
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander_> I didn't test it on any cords I just looked at it (as I was expecting it to glow, but that was before you said it doesn't need to glow)
[22:24] <eroomde> right
[22:24] <eroomde> perhaps you should test it...
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander_> yes
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander_> btw one more question
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander_> the 90 kW/m² figure
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander_> where does it come from?
[22:29] <eroomde> me testing
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander_> thanks
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[22:45] <arko> i'd be nice to leave work early today
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[22:48] <Lunar_Lander_> yea
[22:52] <fsphil> I managed to sneak out early
[22:52] <Lunar_Lander_> xD
[22:52] <arko> i finished everything needed this morning
[22:52] <I2Cfail> http://pastebin.com/C10ZQbpx
[22:52] <arko> so now im looking at whats next and thinking "meh"
[22:54] <fsphil> yea there's no point starting something just before a holiday
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[00:00] --- Sat Dec 22 2012