highaltitude.log.20121206

[00:00] <arko> so what would you recommend?
[00:00] <arko> whip?
[00:00] <__red__> a 50 ohm resistor? :-)
[00:00] <arko> haha
[00:00] <griffonbot> Received email: gonzo_ "[UKHAS] Thread pitch on disposable He bottles??"
[00:01] <gonzo___> almost universal here is the 1/4wave vertival groundplane. Upside down
[00:02] <gonzo___> elements made of stranded wire inside drinking straws is good practice. Saves skewering someone on landing
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[00:11] <gonzo___> gn all
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[00:12] <__red__> he says skewering people like it's a bad thing.
[00:16] <gonzo___> if it was selecive skewering i'd be all for it!
[00:16] <gonzo___> gn all
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[00:36] <Randomskk> CUSF's lab on chinese state TV http://news.cntv.cn/world/20121129/105822.shtml
[00:36] <Randomskk> :D
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[00:37] <Darkside> [Video] scientific exploration: Space scream could hear it?
[00:37] <Darkside> ahh, google translate
[00:38] <arko> hahahaha
[00:38] <arko> i can almost feel the website hacking me
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[03:40] <heathkid> what happened to K6RPT-12?
[03:40] <heathkid> did someone snag it and drive off with it?
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[03:43] <heathkid> also... besides a 50 ohm resistor... what actually is the best antenna for a 2m APRS HAB?
[03:43] <Darkside> we use a HT whip antenna, upside down, with a small ground plane
[03:43] <heathkid> what do you use as a ground plane?
[03:43] <Darkside> some rigid copper wire
[03:44] <heathkid> like a counterpoise?
[03:44] <Darkside> well, we have a wire ground plane at right angles to the antenna
[03:44] <heathkid> how many?
[03:44] <Darkside> 4?
[03:45] <heathkid> length?
[03:45] <Darkside> not 1/4 wavelength, thats for sure
[03:45] <Darkside> that'd be way too big
[03:45] <heathkid> :)
[03:46] <heathkid> anyone sell an antenna kit?
[03:46] <heathkid> for HAB?
[03:46] <heathkid> 2M APRS....
[03:47] <heathkid> lol....
[03:47] Action: heathkid thinks Darkside is thinking... hmm... worth of parts... sell on eBay for
[03:47] <Darkside> nup
[03:47] <Darkside> too busy for that
[03:48] <heathkid> hppf
[03:48] <heathkid> darn keyboard
[03:48] <heathkid> the keys keep moving one over
[03:49] <heathkid> guess I should just launch and see what happens
[03:49] <heathkid> I haven't figured out a way to decode APRS reliably... but maybe others can
[03:50] <heathkid> up it goes and hope others can receive it?
[03:51] <heathkid> what could go wrong? :P
[03:52] <heathkid> oh yeah... everything. *I'll attach a note."
[03:55] <heathkid> hotmelt glue a CD around a 1/4 wave rubber duck antenna upside down?
[04:02] <nigelvh> heathkid, what are you using to decode aprs?
[04:05] <heathkid> I haven't found anything that works reliably yet....
[04:05] <nigelvh> What have you tried?
[04:05] <heathkid> almost everything
[04:06] <heathkid> what should I be using?
[04:06] <nigelvh> I've had the best luck with MixW
[04:06] <nigelvh> If MixW doesn't reliably decode your packets, then I'd take a hard look at the quality of the packets to begin with.
[04:07] <heathkid> I have MixW2
[04:07] <heathkid> is it worth registering?
[04:08] <heathkid> best out there?
[04:08] <nigelvh> Best I've used
[04:08] <nigelvh> But if it's not decoding your packets reliably, then I'd take a serious look at the packets themselves
[04:08] <heathkid> hmm...
[04:08] <heathkid> true
[04:09] <nigelvh> I've seen other things get half of my packets and mixw get every stupid one of them.
[04:09] <heathkid> I'm getting about 1 out of 10
[04:09] <heathkid> maybe my antenna though... using a stubby duck
[04:10] <heathkid> only a couple inches long but only about 5 feet away
[04:10] <heathkid> using sound card for a TNC
[04:10] <nigelvh> I'd look at three main areas, 1. The timing of the tones (does the tone switch precisely at 1200hz, or is there jitter?), The tone frequency and jitter itself (Are the 1200 and 2200Hz tones clean and stable), and are the tone transitions clean (not sudden 180 degree phase shifts.)
[04:11] <heathkid> good suggestions
[04:11] <nigelvh> What are you using to generate the packets?
[04:11] <heathkid> I'll look at them
[04:11] <heathkid> hmm
[04:11] <heathkid> well
[04:12] <nigelvh> (As for the antenna, I've had no antenna on my reciever a few feed away, and a dummy load on a 250mW transmitter and get perfect reception.)
[04:12] <nigelvh> Are you using a trackuino or trackuino based code?
[04:13] <heathkid> mini-trackuino
[04:13] <heathkid> yes
[04:13] <heathkid> based on th etrackuino based code
[04:14] <nigelvh> I assume you've got a GPS hooked up?
[04:14] <heathkid> yes
[04:14] <nigelvh> Hardware or Software Serial?
[04:14] <heathkid> software
[04:14] <nigelvh> try unplugging the GPS
[04:14] <heathkid> it's soldered to the board
[04:14] <heathkid> hold on a sec
[04:14] <nigelvh> Software serial takes a lot of processor interrupts and I've found it can mess up packet generation.
[04:16] <heathkid> actually, I don't know for sure
[04:16] <heathkid> let me find it...
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[04:18] <heathkid> this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261114591451
[04:19] <heathkid> should be hardware serial
[04:20] <nigelvh> The page doesn't say, but I would hope he chose hardware serial. So, I would assume you haven't done any of the programming for this?
[04:20] <heathkid> just my callsign
[04:21] <nigelvh> So you do have the ICSP then?
[04:21] <heathkid> he's around in here...
[04:21] <heathkid> yes
[04:21] <nigelvh> Ok, well you should be able to simply look at the code and see if it's hardware or software serial.
[04:21] <heathkid> true
[04:21] <heathkid> I'll do that tomorrow... it's late here
[04:22] <nigelvh> Alrighty, Anyway, in short, I disabled software serial while packets were being sent, then re-enabled once the packet was finished. Helped a lot.
[04:22] <heathkid> I'll keep that in mind
[04:22] <nigelvh> If it's hardware serial, then I'd start looking at the three categories I mentioned before.
[04:22] <heathkid> ok
[04:23] <nigelvh> I'm not terribly fond of the trackuino code base, but it should do better than 1/10.
[04:23] <heathkid> I agree
[04:23] <heathkid> goodnight
[04:23] <nigelvh> Evening
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[04:53] <griffonbot> Received email: steamfire@gmail.com "Re: [UKHAS] Thread pitch on disposable He bottles??"
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[06:45] <Upu> heathkid the guy who makes that tracker is on here -> KF7FER
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[07:25] <eroomde> morning all
[07:26] <Darkside> \o
[07:27] <arko> morning eroomde
[07:28] <fsphil> morn
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[07:30] <jarod> hi guys
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[07:30] <jarod> i am using a 27.5cm wire for 1090mhz reception
[07:30] <eroomde> hi jarod
[07:30] <jarod> whats best? 2x wave, full wave or 5/8 wave?
[07:30] <eroomde> like a lot of questions, the answer is 'it depends'
[07:31] <eroomde> what are ou trying to receive and where is it relative to you?
[07:31] <jarod> ADS-B 1090mhz from airplanes
[07:32] <eroomde> ok, well neither will be great overhead but equally that's when aeroplanes will be at their closest so strongest signal strngth
[07:32] <eroomde> i'd be inclined to do 5/8th in that sort of sitation
[07:32] <jarod> and why would 5/8 be better than a full lenght?
[07:32] <radim_OM2AMR> jarod, try to google for some super-j-pole antenna
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[07:33] <eroomde> j-poles would be even flatter and more out to the horizon
[07:33] <jarod> can you explain to me why 5/8 can be better than full wave?
[07:34] <eroomde> perhaps not to your satisfaction
[07:34] <eroomde> but for me, it's just a good compromise
[07:34] <eroomde> in terms of radiation pattern
[07:34] <Darkside> it'll need loading though, right?
[07:34] <jarod> but can you explain?
[07:34] <Darkside> you can't just have a 5/8 wavelength length of wire
[07:34] <radim_OM2AMR> eroomde, yes, that's true, for overhead reception will be better groundplane maybe
[07:34] <Darkside> (over a ground plane)
[07:34] <eroomde> if you want to be reaching right out to the horizon, go for something with a flatter radiation patern
[07:34] <jarod> now i have a 27.5cm wire
[07:34] <jarod> i see, anything simple that can do that?
[07:35] <eroomde> ?
[07:35] <radim_OM2AMR> jarod - groundplane is the simplest
[07:35] <jarod> anything i can make from a couple of wires? :P
[07:35] <eroomde> sure a dipole
[07:35] <jarod> ah
[07:36] <jarod> i got a discone on my roof
[07:36] <radim_OM2AMR> yea exactly, 4 or 5 wires of 1/4 lambda
[07:36] <jarod> but doesn't seem to work
[07:36] <eroomde> discones are optimised for freq range more than a specific freq
[07:36] <jarod> must the wire be vertical or horizontal?
[07:36] <eroomde> vertical, very likely
[07:36] <jarod> ok i have that now
[07:36] <eroomde> because the patterns tend to be radially symmetric
[07:37] <eroomde> and i assume you want even coverage north/south/east/west
[07:37] <jarod> yup
[07:37] <eroomde> also i would guess they antennas are vertically polarised on the plane
[07:37] <eroomde> but again a guess
[07:37] <jarod> i just stuck a 27.5cm piece of electrical wire into a female-f-connector to bnc plug, lol :)
[07:38] <jarod> also an outdoor wifi antenna seems to work a bit (which is also just a wire)
[07:38] <eroomde> sure, getting a properly terminated antenna that presents a 50-ohm load to the receiver will help
[07:39] <eroomde> although it's very possible to build bad antennas that provide a 50 ohm load
[07:39] <jarod> ok, i am going to duct tape the wire horizontal and see what happens
[07:39] <eroomde> we call then radio frequencency space heaters
[07:39] <eroomde> them*
[07:39] <eroomde> it's good to have an electrical connection too
[07:39] <eroomde> eg
[07:39] <jarod> http://x264.nl/discone.jpg i wish this would just work :/
[07:39] <radim_OM2AMR> jarod, here is example of GP antenna including radiation pattern http://www.w8ji.com/ground_plane_verticals.htm
[07:39] <eroomde> http://flipthatbit.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ant.quart2_.jpg
[07:40] <eroomde> if you can make something like that you'll be doing well
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[07:40] <jarod> the pointing up wire is the core? the rest grounding?
[07:40] <radim_OM2AMR> exactly
[07:41] <jarod> i get about 60-70km reach on the wire now
[07:42] <eroomde> yes definitely don;t have the ground directly attached to the main element
[07:42] <eroomde> that would be badness
[07:42] <eroomde> directly electrically, i mean
[07:45] <jarod> seems H or V doesn't matter much
[07:45] <UpuWork> morning all
[07:46] <fsphil> much of the white stuff there UpuWork?
[07:47] <UpuWork> not much tbh
[07:47] <eroomde> not a flake here this morning
[07:47] <UpuWork> its cold though -2'C
[07:47] <eroomde> but a nice pink wash from the horizon up
[07:48] <UpuWork> roads are a little sketchy
[07:48] <eroomde> UpuWork: thank you for the logoification yesterday
[07:48] <UpuWork> oh more than welcome
[07:48] <eroomde> especially for putting up with my grumpiness about eagle's deficiencies
[07:48] <UpuWork> lol
[07:48] <UpuWork> well in fairness
[07:48] <UpuWork> I revisited that issue at least 5 times before working it out
[07:49] <eroomde> context for others: i was completely sure there must be a way to do vector graphics in eagle, so i could get a resizable company logo
[07:49] <eroomde> i went to hell and back
[07:49] <UpuWork> I've not found it
[07:49] <eroomde> i've seen some things a man shouldn't have to see
[07:49] <fsphil> you'd expect that to be simple
[07:49] <eroomde> and done some things i shall speak of to another man
[07:49] <UpuWork> I just resize in PS and just make different sized ones till I get it right
[07:49] <eroomde> fsphil: oh god don;t even start
[07:49] <eroomde> it's 2012 right
[07:49] <daveake> -6'C here
[07:49] <eroomde> what could go wrong
[07:50] <fsphil> I'm gonna start later in the week eroomde :/
[07:50] <fsphil> assuming I ever finish the schematic
[07:50] <UpuWork> One day I'm going to put a tutorial up
[07:50] <UpuWork> its started to snow here..
[07:50] <fsphil> really windy here
[07:50] <fsphil> but raining, no snow
[07:50] <daveake> Put it up before Xmas; I need a project :)
[07:50] <number10> does any one know if test payload upload to spacenear has been disable for the duration of theK6RPT flight?
[07:51] <eroomde> anyway
[07:51] <UpuWork> nope
[07:51] <eroomde> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/58776840/Screen%20Shot%202012-12-05%20at%2022.00.06.png
[07:51] <UpuWork> not intentionally
[07:51] <eroomde> it's about there now
[07:51] <jarod> oh lol
[07:51] <eroomde> just want to put some voltage probe test points in that gap in the middle
[07:51] <jarod> it seems i am receiving on the coax cable :O
[07:51] <eroomde> then send it off
[07:51] <number10> cheers UpuWork - it doesnt seem to be working - but not a problem for now
[07:51] <eroomde> jarod: ah yes
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[07:52] <eroomde> that might explain why it's not working
[07:52] <eroomde> usually if you encase an antenna in a grounded container, it affects performance a bit
[07:52] <eroomde> i think that fella faraday had a few words on the matter
[07:52] <radim_OM2AMR> morning Upu, quick question, what IC are you using for step-up power converter ?
[07:53] <UpuWork> TPS6120)DRC
[07:53] <UpuWork> TPS61200DRC
[07:53] <eroomde> can i use this topical opportunity to plug the MAX1556. it's stepdown, but outrageously high efficiency at low powers, like 95% rather than 85% at say 5mA
[07:53] <radim_OM2AMR> thank you :-)
[07:54] <Darkside> that's the variable voltage version (which i use), theres also fixed voltage versions
[07:54] <jarod> using my dvb-t antenna now
[07:54] <Darkside> which cost more per unit
[07:54] <eroomde> so if one is doing just long life rather than pico, eg you can use 2xAA in series, consider this part
[07:54] <jarod> THR: -87dB any idea what that means?
[07:54] <eroomde> the Vin range is quite low but fine for 2 or 3 AA cells ins eries
[07:55] <UpuWork> the 61200 is the variable one
[07:55] <Darkside> i've found the variable one to be cheaper
[07:55] <UpuWork> I've started using that exclusively now
[07:56] <Darkside> hehe
[07:58] <fsphil> what's the noise like?
[07:58] <eroomde> jarod: not sure i'm afriad
[07:58] <eroomde> can you provide any more context that might help us figure out what it's talking about?
[07:58] <UpuWork> apparently if you stick a ferrite on it not that bad
[07:58] <UpuWork> otherwise tragic
[07:58] <eroomde> is this a metric on the spec of some coaxial cable, for example?
[07:59] <fsphil> ah, I may pass for this board then
[07:59] <UpuWork> oh wouldn't use it for an RX board
[07:59] <fsphil> as I need to use the rfm22b as a transceiver
[07:59] <UpuWork> yeah use a linear
[08:00] <eroomde> and good filtering generally
[08:00] <fsphil> I've got a few caps on each component at the moment, and will be adding many more
[08:00] <fsphil> the motors may ruin everything though :)
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[08:00] <eroomde> decouplers everywhere, big low esr tantalums on the output, and inductors on the io lines if you're feeling pathlogical
[08:02] <eroomde> also, if doing ADCs, and ESPECIALLY if doing anything differential, do RF filtering on the inputs
[08:02] <eroomde> i can show you how
[08:02] <fsphil> I'll stick the esr caps on there
[08:02] <eroomde> but things like instrumentation amps, which have double sided inputs, are very good at rejecting common mode signals
[08:02] <eroomde> like, gain of >-100dB
[08:02] <eroomde> BUT
[08:02] <fsphil> only ADC'ing will be battery voltage monitoring
[08:02] <eroomde> only at low freqs
[08:02] <fsphil> and possibly current monitoring of the motors
[08:02] <eroomde> RF goes right in and sees the silicon on the die which just rectifies it into a voltage
[08:03] <eroomde> ok u should be ok
[08:03] <eroomde> but still do some cursory filtering on the adc inputs anyway
[08:03] <fsphil> right, will do that tonight
[08:03] <eroomde> motors are quite noisy
[08:03] <eroomde> FilterLab by microchip is great for designing active filters
[08:04] <eroomde> you can get a 2 pole active filter (i.e. low impedance output, unity gain - perfect for going into an adc) from a single opamp
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[08:05] <eroomde> it runs fine under wine if ure wondering
[08:06] <jarod> eroomde
[08:06] <eroomde> yo
[08:06] <jarod> - Automatic threshold, http://rtl1090.jetvision.de/ all it says :/
[08:07] <eroomde> ah
[08:07] <eroomde> so thr likely means threshold
[08:08] <eroomde> so it might be like a squelch or something
[08:08] <eroomde> fsphil: for interest (or not)
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[08:08] <eroomde> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/58776840/thermocouplefrontend.png
[08:08] <eroomde> this is how i've got the thermocouple on the igniter board
[08:09] <eroomde> on the left is an instrumentation amp, designed for single sided operation (eg between 0-5V rather than -5 and +5V)
[08:09] <eroomde> the right hand side with the op amp with 2 caps and 2 resistors is a 10Hz 2 pole anti-alias filter
[08:10] <eroomde> designed from just plugging the numbers into filterlab
[08:10] <eroomde> which gives you a schematic
[08:10] <eroomde> and right on the left, r23, r24, c16, c12 and c11 are the rf filter for the instrumentation amp
[08:11] <eroomde> which i can explain how it works if u find yourself in that sitation. if you don't need it now, just remember that you do need it if you find yourself amplifying tiny signals :)
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[08:20] <costyn> morning
[08:24] <UpuWork> morning costyn
[08:25] <number10> mounting the processor at 45 degrees seems to be popular
[08:27] <fsphil> thanks eroomde
[08:28] <UpuWork> just makes it fit better number10
[08:29] <number10> :) I guess so for a small pico
[08:29] <eroomde> jjit looks fun
[08:30] <eroomde> let me just run that by the 'you're not in vim anymore' cleanup script
[08:30] <eroomde> it looks fun
[08:30] <daveake> :)
[08:31] <eroomde> and yeah 45 degrees can make fanout a bit easier when you're in a tight space
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[08:31] <costyn> UpuWork: do I need to order any related parts to attach the habamp to the ezcap dongle? launches or pigtails?
[08:31] <costyn> UpuWork: (if I order from you)
[08:32] <UpuWork> err just the joiner
[08:32] <costyn> ok
[08:32] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_66&product_id=75
[08:33] <costyn> UpuWork: it's weird, I've had it twice now where on the final step of ordering from your store, it suddenly adds the items I ordered last time
[08:33] <fsphil> I do like the 45 degree cpu thing, it looks like you know what you're doing :)
[08:33] <UpuWork> odd
[08:33] <costyn> UpuWork: http://i.imgur.com/en0v4.png
[08:34] <UpuWork> not seen that costyn, cookies ?
[08:34] <costyn> UpuWork: could be
[08:34] <UpuWork> trying to get you to spend more
[08:34] <costyn> :)
[08:34] <daveake> fsphil yes it does :)
[08:34] <daveake> It says "this guy thinks outside the box"
[08:34] <daveake> or the square
[08:35] <eroomde> i thing square on would probably actually make more sense on this pcb
[08:35] <eroomde> but oh well
[08:35] <UpuWork> it means this guy managed to fit a HC49 where one should not go
[08:36] <daveake> I've mounted chips upside down before, but that was due to brain failure
[08:36] <fsphil> I'm hoping to make this pcb circular, so the orientation of the cpu probably won't matter much
[08:36] <jarod> eroomde: seems planes may use big wheel antenna?
[08:37] <eroomde> jarod: interesting
[08:37] <costyn> UpuWork: going to setup a permanent HAB listening station at our hackerspace. Any suggestions for antenna's?
[08:37] <UpuWork> just a cheapy Watson Colinear should do
[08:37] <eroomde> daveake: yeah i have def done that
[08:38] <eroomde> and designed their footprints back to front
[08:38] <UpuWork> unless you want to make something with a rotator and a Yagi
[08:38] <costyn> UpuWork: no, no yagi just yet, we'll see if it works with a colinear first
[08:38] <UpuWork> you could just make a 1/4 wave and mount it the right way up
[08:38] <costyn> a colinear wil get more gain won't it?
[08:38] <eroomde> note the xtal on the pcb middle
[08:38] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4362704812/sizes/o/in/set-72157621846323425/
[08:39] <eroomde> one of my finest moments
[08:39] <UpuWork> there is alot of stuff on that board
[08:39] <UpuWork> ARM what ?
[08:39] <eroomde> lpc2368
[08:40] <number10> my pico processor is upside-down daveake but that was because I dead bugged it
[08:40] <eroomde> it was the board that ran the parachute drop test vehicle
[08:40] <costyn> eroomde: instant association to badger badger mushroom :)
[08:40] <daveake> Deliberate then :)
[08:40] <eroomde> yes
[08:40] <eroomde> borrowed the logo from them too
[08:40] <costyn> hehe
[08:40] <eroomde> u will observe that yesterday was not my first battle with importing graphics
[08:40] <eroomde> we go way back, eagle and i
[08:41] <costyn> eroomde: aah, I see it now yes :)
[08:42] <eroomde> the problem of layout on 4 layers is vastly, vastly, easier
[08:42] <eroomde> it's so much easier to make a well designed board with 4 layers
[08:42] <eroomde> and you can get a high density of general shit
[08:43] <eroomde> not that badger 2 was a well layed out board (it wasn't)
[08:43] <eroomde> but in principle
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[08:45] <number10> badger cub was the pyro board?
[08:46] <eroomde> the baby tracker
[08:46] <eroomde> cc1110<->gps
[08:46] <eroomde> the cc1110 had a 8051 core in
[08:46] <eroomde> so need need for a separate micro
[08:46] <eroomde> pico nerds take note
[08:54] <craag> I was recommended that exact chip by a postgrad here yesterday.
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[08:56] <jarod> any one here use plane plotter?
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[08:57] <number10> slightly different approaches (OZ and US) to the end of the world nonsense - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebtj3gDaE64 http://blog.usa.gov/post/37121041300/scary-rumors-about-the-world-ending-in-2012-are-just
[08:58] <jarod> eroomde: http://x264.nl/dump/ads-b-antenna-dipole.jpg
[09:01] <jarod> anyone know if you can turn off the trailing graphic in planeplotter?
[09:02] <costyn> jarod: how well does that antenna work? :)
[09:02] <jarod> very well
[09:02] <jarod> even planes that taxi on the ground i can see :)
[09:02] <costyn> hehe
[09:03] <costyn> ah you use a DVB-T usb dongle?
[09:03] <jarod> yeah
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[09:29] <jarod> eroomde:
[09:29] <jarod> http://x264.nl/dump/ads-b-antenna-dipole1.jpg
[09:29] <jarod> http://x264.nl/dump/ads-b-antenna-dipole2.jpg
[09:29] <jarod> http://x264.nl/dump/ads-b-antenna-result.jpg
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[09:34] <jarod> http://x264.nl/dump/ads-b-antenna-planeplotter.jpg
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[09:41] <x-f> interesting
[09:44] <jarod> yup
[09:44] <jarod> works like a charm
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[09:47] <griffonbot> Received email: CHRIS INWOOD "Re: [UKHAS] Runtime_errorHTTP 403 when using the High Altitude
[09:47] <griffonbot> Received email: Neil Baker "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Insurance Working Group"
[09:48] <griffonbot> Received email: Jon Sowman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Insurance Working Group"
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[10:03] <griffonbot> Received email: CHRIS INWOOD "[UKHAS] Re: Runtime_errorHTTP 403 when using the High Altitude
[10:05] <costyn> is Alexei also a habitat dev?
[10:05] <UpuWork> He is responsible for spacenear.us
[10:05] <eroomde> he STILL HAS THE SAME PROBLEM
[10:05] <costyn> :)
[10:06] <UpuWork> lol indeed
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[10:07] <eroomde> costyn: alexei whipped up the tracker map in about 10 minutes back when the tracker and distributed listener came together one flight
[10:07] <daveake> IN SPACENEAR NO-ONE CAN HEAR YOU SHOUT
[10:08] <eroomde> he is da origin
[10:08] <UpuWork> he's working on a shiny new version
[10:08] <UpuWork> Alexei = natrium42
[10:08] <UpuWork> http://www.spacenear.us/test/
[10:08] <eroomde> the rough history, just for fun, was:
[10:08] <eroomde> nova 8 flight
[10:09] <eroomde> james listening from london but was away
[10:09] <eroomde> james therefore got a python script to dump each line from the dlfldigi log to an irc chatbot which posted it here
[10:09] <eroomde> alexei wrote a map that took some of the irtc chat bot stuff and plotted it automatically
[10:09] <costyn> UpuWork: ah thanks...never saw natrium42's real name mentioned anywhere
[10:10] <eroomde> then the python script started to actually parse the log a bit more intelligently and send the data directly to the map
[10:10] <UpuWork> one for your book Ed
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[10:10] <eroomde> then rob harisson came on the scene and offered to host a server as a central thing for anyone to send their python scriupt logs too
[10:10] <daveake> Oh yeah how's the book coming along? :)
[10:10] <eroomde> meantime fldigi started to get modded into dlfldigi to replace vanilla fldigi + python script
[10:11] <eroomde> i wrote like a couple of chapters and haven't touched it for a while
[10:11] <eroomde> i shall pull my finger out
[10:11] <costyn> UpuWork: that test looks pretty sexy, would love to have other data be able to be plotted, maybe x-f funky tool
[10:11] <daveake> then wash it
[10:11] <eroomde> and then in the last couple of years we've had habhub and upu's servers start to evolve and replace the stuff before
[10:11] <costyn> eroomde: interesting
[10:12] <daveake> That's a more delicate shade of pink, Upu
[10:12] <eroomde> costyn: isn't it!
[10:12] <eroomde> like all cool stuff, it's evolved from something quite simple
[10:12] <jonsowman> eroomde: what's the title?
[10:12] <eroomde> Burst!
[10:13] <costyn> :D
[10:13] <jonsowman> ah yes
[10:13] <daveake> :)
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[10:13] <daveake> Subtitled: Pushing the envelope
[10:13] <jonsowman> oh god
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[10:13] <eroomde> it was just going to be the history of habbing in the uk until about 2010
[10:13] <jonsowman> it's going to be a minefield of puns isn't it
[10:14] <eroomde> which is when i kind of stopped
[10:14] <eroomde> so don;t really know much after that
[10:14] <daveake> I'm sure I came up with a puntastic title for the book
[10:14] <x-f> eroomde, before nova8 trackers were alone out there, with only information what they received directly from the payload?
[10:15] <x-f> chasers might be a better word
[10:15] <UpuWork> Got a nice mail from the batc.tv guys
[10:15] <jarod> eroomde seem mah photos? :)
[10:16] <UpuWork> they are doing an article on the launch
[10:16] <daveake> That's good
[10:17] <eroomde> jarod: nope?
[10:17] <eroomde> link me up
[10:17] <eroomde> x-f: more or less
[10:17] <costyn> eroomde: posted at 09:30
[10:17] <eroomde> james and steve might listen to one of ours
[10:17] <eroomde> and communicate via mobile phone
[10:17] <eroomde> but nothing like the DL we have today
[10:18] <x-f> cool
[10:18] <eroomde> i think it was nova 7 actually not 8
[10:19] <eroomde> no it was 8
[10:19] <eroomde> definitely 8
[10:19] <x-f> year 2008
[10:20] <eroomde> but yes chases really were chases and we didn't have electricity and olive oil was something you bought from the chemists
[10:20] <x-f> "Today the team had a very early start launching NOVA 8 at 4:07am. The payload consisted of three cameras and the Badger board plus the HAPS-D (High Altitude Photo System Dawn) was also carried."
[10:20] <eroomde> that's the one
[10:22] <eroomde> that's the flight responsible for this photo http://www.nivnac.co.uk/files/HAPSD_NOVA8/HAPS-D_pan1_quarter.jpg
[10:23] <x-f> and it was important in another way too: "The aim of the flight was to test a new tracking system which combines wind speed data gathered during the ascent to update and refine the predicted landing site. This was a great success and the team were able to park and wait less than a kilometer from the final landing site."
[10:23] <eroomde> where are you getting all this stuff?
[10:23] <x-f> from the internets :)
[10:23] <x-f> http://spacefellowship.com/news/art6466/cusf-nova-8-dawn-launch-a-great-success.html
[10:25] <eroomde> oh that
[10:25] <eroomde> i remember that
[10:26] <eroomde> that was also the summer we write the flight predictor
[10:26] <eroomde> it was a productive summer
[10:26] <eroomde> wrote*
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[11:02] <nosebleedkt> hi all
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[11:07] <UpuWork> ping costyn
[11:07] <UpuWork> hi nosebleedkt
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[11:13] <NavracWork> morning everyone
[11:15] <costyn> UpuWork: hiya
[11:16] <UpuWork> hey costyn pm
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[11:42] <Armand> daveake, you around?
[11:52] <UpuWork> he might be busy Armand ask away if you want
[11:53] <Armand> Nothing to particular.. mostly wanted to praise his PIE1 project. :)
[11:53] <Armand> Very interesting reading.
[11:54] <UpuWork> he reads back .. hi daveake from the future
[11:55] <Armand> lol
[11:56] <UpuWork> afk
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[11:57] <Armand> cawfy
[12:06] <fsphil> fsphil from the future still hasn't answered me. I guess that time machine never worked
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[12:08] <Armand> Probably ignoring you. :P
[12:08] <fsphil> true, I'd ignore myself from 10 years ago
[12:08] <Armand> Well, you had a big argument in about 5 minutes.
[12:08] <Armand> So... Meh. :/
[12:14] <Armand> I need to solder the wires to my regulator. -_-
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[12:18] <fsphil> soldering is fun
[12:19] <fsphil> I used to hate it, then I found flux
[12:19] <fsphil> now my life is happy
[12:19] <costyn> fsphil: can you just use it everywhere?
[12:19] <fsphil> totally
[12:19] <costyn> fsphil: i have a bottle at home, but never broke it out
[12:20] <costyn> fsphil: but after your glowing review, I'll have a go soon
[12:20] <NavracWork> i love it till it comes to cleaning it off
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[12:23] <Armand> I only do small soldering work.. in the case, thin gauge wire to a small, low voltage, variable regulator.
[12:24] <daveake> Armand I'm around. And round. Sorry was afk
[12:24] <Armand> 12v -> 5.25v
[12:24] <Armand> Quite alright. :)
[12:25] <daveake> Hi UpuWork in the past :)
[12:25] <Armand> I was enjoying reading up on your PIE projects. :)
[12:25] <daveake> Ah yes
[12:25] <fsphil> time travel!!1
[12:26] <Armand> I'm interested in Pi projects, especially including video/pictures.
[12:26] <daveake> (I've done this before, but ....)
[12:26] <daveake> Yay it works!!
[12:26] <daveake> Just a mo I'm going to try out this time machine I've built....
[12:26] <Armand> The only Pi I have right now is a webserver, but.. :D
[12:26] <Armand> Is it a clock? :P
[12:26] <daveake> yeah the live images were great
[12:26] <Armand> Very good, in fact.
[12:27] <Armand> I'm thinking more about a spy-copter.. with video streaming (via 3G, if possible.)
[12:28] <daveake> Yeah we should do a launch with live video streaming from a chopper to batc
[12:28] <Armand> :)
[12:28] <daveake> Just keep the rotors away from the latex :)
[12:29] <Armand> I was thinking about waiting until they have webcam working via DSI.
[12:29] <x-f> a rescue chopper with live video if someone lands in the water again!
[12:29] <Armand> Good idea. O.o
[12:29] <daveake> s/if/when/
[12:29] <x-f> yeah
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[12:35] <Armand> We've drawn up some basic designs using a slightly larger RC 'copter.. using a 12v deep-cycle battery.
[12:35] <Armand> It will all be custom build, probably and aluminium frame.
[12:35] <Armand> *built
[12:37] <radim_OM2AMR> anyone tried or think about using live HAB video with 1.2 GHz FPV ?
[12:37] <fsphil> that's a heavy battery
[12:37] <fsphil> Darkside and Co where looking at doing video
[12:38] <Armand> fsphil, the 7Ah lumps I use for my solar Pi are 2.5KG each.
[12:38] <fsphil> yea that's fairly weighty :)
[12:39] <Armand> We have a guy who's good with flight mechanics, so.. it's all in hand. ^_^
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[12:41] <radim_OM2AMR> thanks fsphil, ping Darkside :-)
[12:42] <fsphil> we only have 2.4ghz ism for video here in the uk
[12:42] <fsphil> and I suspect that would never work that well
[12:42] <Armand> fsphil, He's going to over-spec on the lift capacity, so we've got plenty of room there for the weight.
[12:43] <Armand> As nothing is set in stone, metal or silicon yet.. we've got lots to think about for tech and alternatives. :)
[12:44] <radim_OM2AMR> fsphil, 2.4 G band is unusable here in Slovakia also, due to a lot of wifi devices, that's why I'm thinking about other frequencies
[12:44] <fsphil> here too, although one good thing about 2.4ghz is that you can get away from the noise quite easily
[12:45] <radim_OM2AMR> you mean good PA ?
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[12:46] <gonzo___> rural locations are reasonably quiet at 2.4gig and with careful antenna design you can reduce the pickup
[12:47] <gonzo___> the 2.4GHZ for airborne is limited to 10mW again, even though you can use 100mW for ground based tx
[12:47] <radim_OM2AMR> gonzo_true, but it means narrow beam antenna with proper rotator
[12:47] <gonzo___> it's pretty easy to make a helix at 2.4 and hand held is doable
[12:48] <gonzo___> though you won't get loo much range
[12:48] <Armand> afk, walking the dog. -_-
[12:48] <gonzo___> we are looking to do a pico with a wireless cam, poss on te 15th
[12:49] <gonzo___> but treating it as just a bit of fun. Don't expect to bet more than line of sight (meaning, visual sight of the balloon). So probably just get the launch video
[12:49] <radim_OM2AMR> gonzo__, helix - that's probably good for airplane models, but for HAB tens miles away...
[12:50] <radim_OM2AMR> I found such FPV radios http://www.sunsky-online.com/product/default!view.do?subject.id=13087
[12:50] <gonzo___> the thought was, put a dipole and simple reflector on the hab, pointing down, then try and stay under it with the chase car and tv rx
[12:51] <radim_OM2AMR> I know, about 1Watts of power, but good for me, that this one will transmit in amateur band
[12:51] <gonzo___> airborne AR not allowed in uk
[12:52] <radim_OM2AMR> I know :-( strange law from OFCOM
[12:52] <gonzo___> very envious of those who can
[12:53] <gonzo___> 1.3ghz would not be a good choice in UK anyway. As there are radars in the band
[12:53] <costyn> radim_OM2AMR: 800mW, what kind of range do you get with that line-of-sight?
[12:53] <costyn> radim_OM2AMR: I guess it also depends on antenna, but with the ones supplied?
[12:54] <radim_OM2AMR> costyn, I read about 30 miles from plane models, so from hab should be more
[12:54] <radim_OM2AMR> of course not with that stock antennas, huge yagi on the ground
[12:54] <costyn> sure
[12:55] <radim_OM2AMR> or something with circular polarization due to payload moves
[12:55] <NavracWork> I've built a satellite dish with a helical feed for this
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[12:56] <NavracWork> just using some cheap 2.4ghz modules - seems to work but im not planning on trying it anger till next year now
[12:56] <gonzo___> those sunsky cams are expensive! eBay HK ones are cheaper
[12:57] <radim_OM2AMR> NavracWork, good idea, as I told, maybe some circular polarized ant, so helix is a good choice
[12:57] <gonzo___> I planned a dipole for the TX, and a helix on the ground. So that should get rud of some of the spin fading
[12:57] <NavracWork> yep circular suffersd less with the rotation etc
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[12:58] <NavracWork> I've got a small helix for the payload - just 2.5 turns - enough to give circular polarisation but not a tight beam
[12:58] <gonzo___> or if you are going to rx it from a distance, rather than from below, then the inverted 1/4wave GP is still an option
[12:59] <NavracWork> although the fpv'ers swear by the butterfly type antennas, although i havent built one yet
[12:59] <gonzo___> don't rely on wlan antennas for the RX site though, they are usually pretty poor. Make your own
[12:59] <gonzo___> butterfly? id that a Bi-quad?
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> 1.2m dish
[12:59] <NavracWork> i do - however i have a load of assorted good quality wlan ones lying about. cheap ones are cheap but the pacific wireless and cisco stuff is ok
[13:00] <gonzo___> http://www.frars.org.uk/cgi-bin/render.pl?pageid=1064
[13:00] <NavracWork> cloverleaf - thats what they call them
[13:01] <gonzo___> I( did start putting together the bits for a car mounted 1.2m dish.
[13:01] <gonzo___> but was for higher uwave bands
[13:01] <NavracWork> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1388264
[13:02] <gonzo___> the bbq grill ones are poor. The larger pressed galvo mesh ones are not bad. Used them for long (30km) wlan paths, with std 100mw cards
[13:02] <NavracWork> mines mounted on an old telescope base with x andy motors , but havent got round to controlling the motors yet, time is a bit of a precious commodity at the moment
[13:03] <gonzo___> have a look at the LVB interface. (amsat uk sell themm)
[13:03] <NavracWork> i prefer the pressed mesh , but the bbq ones are ok if you buy a decent make
[13:03] <gonzo___> found that the bbq ones leak rf badly. You have to line them wioth mesh to get anythuing useabl
[13:04] <gonzo___> lunch calls. Laters all
[13:09] <Armand> We need a simulator, really.. to test the power and weight capacity.
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[13:28] <eroomde> i love the local deli. yesterday sandy was making a batch of bluck pudding cotch eggs for a hunt, i commented how nice they looked
[13:28] <eroomde> when i went in there for lunch today
[13:28] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/w760t1f1p1oxx5y/2012-12-06%2012.34.39.jpg
[13:29] <Armand> Sounds nice. :D
[13:29] <fsphil> We claim this Egg in the name of Ed
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[13:30] <eroomde> black pudding scotch eggs*
[13:30] <fsphil> I do like a scotch egg, but black pudding?
[13:30] <fsphil> nooo
[13:30] <fsphil> crime against egg-kind
[13:30] <eroomde> it's AMAZING
[13:30] <UpuWork> lol
[13:30] <UpuWork> Eds Egg
[13:31] <fsphil> be awful if you didn't buy it
[13:31] <Laurenceb> lol
[13:31] <Laurenceb> "sorry too expensive"
[13:32] <Laurenceb> http://s4.b3ta.com/host/creative/67887/1354573473/KateandWilliambaby.gif
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> doesn't work
[13:36] <gonzo___> thought that was his brother?
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[13:36] <gonzo___> a lad whois following in his grandfathers steps of huge gaffs
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[13:37] <Armand> Ohh, you mean the Nazi? lol
[13:38] <Armand> Harry is an idiot.
[13:39] <Laurenceb> _only_ harry?!
[13:39] <Armand> Well... that's up for debate... ;)
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[13:39] <Armand> I'm quite anti-royal.. regardless of *who* lol
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[13:46] <gonzo___> good old Phil the Greek, he's worth every penny, just for entertainment value
[13:47] <Armand> Indeed..
[13:47] <Armand> Especially if someone is throwing spears at him. :P
[13:50] Nick change: WillDuckworth_ -> WillDuckworth
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[14:54] Action: nick_ just got some hints that his balloon project is funded
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[14:57] <SpeedEvil> woo!
[15:01] <nick_> Which would be cool.
[15:01] <nick_> Nothing official though, the committee just met yesterday.
[15:02] <Armand> that's awesome. :)
[15:02] <Armand> How much funding are you looking at?
[15:02] <daveake> And does it take into account inflation?
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[15:02] <nick_> £10k
[15:02] <Armand> O_O
[15:02] <Armand> Damn... How long have you been waiting on that?
[15:03] <nick_> I applied in September
[15:03] <Armand> That's really good..
[15:03] <oh7lzb> Cool. Quite a balloon coming up!
[15:03] <nick_> That will cover making some cosmic ray detectors to use in schools and sticking them on some balloon flights.
[15:03] <Armand> I need to do some fund-raising myself, but I only need £200-300 at the moment.
[15:04] <Armand> Well, you're definitely going a lot more advanced than anything I wish to do. :)
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> 10k...
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[15:06] <costyn> nick_: I think you're no longer in the realm of amateur HAB :)
[15:07] <nick_> Well, it will be semi professional detectors, amateur hab
[15:10] <radim_OM2AMR> 10k = 15 to 20 amateur HAB flights :-) congrats!
[15:12] <mattbrejza> does that include a wage for you...?
[15:12] <nick_> It's more like 5-6 flights
[15:13] <nick_> A decent chunk of the money gets spent on making the detectors, buying parts for the detectors and my time.
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[16:18] <WillDuckworth> anyone here see the rockblock presentation at the conference? i had to go by then. Any good?
[16:19] <craag> Looked great to me. I believe one flew on the theregister flight last week, it seemed to stop reporting after a while though.
[16:20] <WillDuckworth> they look good - specially for floater flights
[16:20] <WillDuckworth> how's your pi in the sky craag?
[16:21] <craag> I gave up on that after Dave beat me to it.
[16:21] <WillDuckworth> shame
[16:21] <craag> Done a couple of picos since and now looking at a non-pico long duration float project.
[16:23] <craag> I'm still using the Pi, just for more down-to-earth projects.
[16:24] <WillDuckworth> cool
[16:25] <daveake> re the Rockblock - it did the same sometimes in testing. Power issue. Upu is doing some tests to see if it was just my unit or not.
[16:26] <UpuWork> I am
[16:26] <UpuWork> this weekend
[16:26] <daveake> If it's an issue, it can be avoided by not letting the supercap discharge too much.
[16:26] <daveake> So one way or another it'll not be an issue anymore.
[16:27] <daveake> Might even buy one myself :-)
[16:27] <daveake> Want to get it working with the Pi
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[16:28] <mattbrejza> whats the reason for the supercap :/ ?
[16:28] <daveake> Oh, and the integration with spacenear is currently via a Python script running on a Pi at my home, but soon that'll get moved to the Habitat server
[16:29] <Armand> craag, I'm using a single Pi as a webserver at the moment.. still working on the solar part though.
[16:29] <daveake> They want it to be able to run from USB, including the USB on a Pi. The modem can use 2W (IIRC) when transmitting
[16:29] <daveake> So they limit the USB incoming current to IIRC 90mA
[16:30] <WillDuckworth> sounds like a plan daveake upu
[16:30] <daveake> However, in my tracker the 5V was from a 1A regulator, so it /shouldn't/ have been a problem
[16:30] <daveake> <ssssh>Mine may have got wet in the rain one night during testing </ssssh>
[16:31] <mattbrejza> oh i see, supercaps not really needed for hab use then (assuming nice lithuims)
[16:31] <daveake> No shouldn't be needed
[16:31] <UpuWork> well
[16:32] <UpuWork> its 2A on TX
[16:32] <UpuWork> for a burst
[16:32] <daveake> Oh thought it was 2W
[16:32] <UpuWork> no 2A
[16:32] <daveake> 2A for how long?
[16:32] <UpuWork> not sure
[16:32] <mattbrejza> 2A is fine for a lithuim..?
[16:32] <daveake> IOW would a regular electrolytic be ok
[16:32] <UpuWork> not long I suspect
[16:32] <UpuWork> yeah but not for USB
[16:32] <daveake> Not via a 1A reg :D
[16:32] <UpuWork> yeah the reg is 1A on a Mega
[16:32] <UpuWork> so does need to be there
[16:33] <daveake> 2A on a cold lithium might be pushing it
[16:33] <WillDuckworth> with a pi aswell....
[16:33] <mattbrejza> 3A continuous, 5A pulse from a AA
[16:34] <daveake> At what temp?
[16:34] <mattbrejza> yea i know, RT probs
[16:35] <mattbrejza> thats a 2s pulse btw
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[16:35] <mattbrejza> and yea, prowering from same reg as your processor is not advised
[16:36] <daveake> Sure. Probably a bit much for your average cheapo battery clip too. Some of those use really thin wire
[16:36] <daveake> I'd want a decent size cap on there really. Might as well leave the supercap on :D
[16:36] <mattbrejza> i suppose if youre making a generic module the super caps are advised rather than assuming everyone knows how to power it properly
[16:37] <WillDuckworth> gtg
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[16:37] <daveake> yup
[16:38] <daveake> I'm almost tempted to do a floater with Iridium and see how far away it can still be sending back telemetry and some lowres SSDV
[16:38] <daveake> Not a cheap flight mind ... probably lose the Iridium for a start
[16:38] <mattbrejza> ssdv over iriduim?
[16:38] <daveake> little pix :)
[16:39] <mattbrejza> even so thats a lot of £££ on data?
[16:39] <daveake> UpuWork how much per 50-byte message is it?
[16:39] <mattbrejza> although i have no idea how much exactly, £10 on data isnt an issue bearing in mind other costs
[16:39] <daveake> Quite
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[16:40] <fsphil> you'd get images after landing again
[16:41] <daveake> OK it's £20 for 200 credits
[16:41] <daveake> Which is 10k bytes
[16:41] <daveake> So yeah £10/image
[16:41] <daveake> Think that's the figure I mentioned at the conf
[16:42] <daveake> But getting say 1 back from over Russia would be cool
[16:42] <daveake> Use the upload to request an image download
[16:43] <daveake> "Please send image max 5kbytes thanks"
[16:43] <fsphil> you could increase the compression level
[16:43] <daveake> yup
[16:43] <fsphil> at least get a thumbnail back to see if it's worth sending the full image
[16:44] <daveake> Yep
[16:44] <daveake> The patent pending image selection algorithm does quite well though :)
[16:44] <fsphil> it does
[16:44] <fsphil> could probably strip down the protocol a bit too, save some bits
[16:44] <daveake> Well ... no need for error correction
[16:45] <fsphil> or most of the headers
[16:45] <fsphil> as you can request it send missing bits again
[16:45] <daveake> This is getting more interesting :)
[16:46] <mattbrejza> you only get charged for successfully transmitted messages?
[16:46] <daveake> yes
[16:46] <daveake> You get a status back ... if it failed just leave the message in the modem's buffer and try again
[16:47] <mattbrejza> ok
[16:47] <daveake> So should be able to rely on the tracker to make sure all parts of the image get sent
[16:47] <UpuWork> sorry was on the phone
[16:48] <UpuWork> nothing if I just ask them nicely
[16:48] <UpuWork> however I don't think sending images is a good idea
[16:48] <daveake> Messages get forwarded as URL POSTs (can also do emails), so some Python can pick those and poke the data in to Phil's server
[16:48] <daveake> I think getting a photo or two from a far-away floater would be very cool
[16:49] <mattbrejza> but would also need a rpi and camera that you otherwise wouldnt need
[16:49] <daveake> Not suggesting sending images generally
[16:49] <daveake> yes
[16:50] <daveake> Price-wise the PI and camera are cheap items. They do need a fair few electrons tho
[16:50] <fsphil> this is where I need to stop delaying and figure out how to use those cheap cameras
[16:50] <NavracWork> http://imgur.com/8BR5f
[16:51] <daveake> lol
[16:51] <daveake> Don't ever use yodel
[16:52] <NavracWork> lost in transit for 3 days between depots, and been out for delivery for two, apparently i wasnt in when I was.
[16:52] <NavracWork> so far in the past 2 months they've failed to deliver 2 out of 4 parcels
[16:53] <NavracWork> my favourite is we wont investigate till its 5 days late and if you want to claim you have to make the claim withi 7 days of posting in writing
[16:54] <NavracWork> so basically 'tough'
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[17:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Tomasz Brol "Re: [UKHAS] Certification"
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[18:06] <Ben__> Guys, do you need a radio transmitter if you've got GPS? Trying to understand how the tracking works. Radio receivers seem really expensive
[18:12] <nick_> Ben__: you need to transmit the location you find from GPS back to the ground via a radio transmitter
[18:13] <nick_> Some receivers are quite pricey, but there are also some cheap devices designed for getting TV on your pc that you can use, I think
[18:13] <nick_> Someone who actually knows what they are talking about will hopefully explain it, or the wiki probably does too
[18:13] <Ben__> Which is the cheapest general solution that works? I mean, I don't know if it has to be a certain type of radio or not
[18:13] <Ben__> it explains the dl-fldigi method
[18:14] <Ben__> not sure if there's a cheaper method, it mentioned a dongle but said it wasn't massively reliable
[18:14] <nick_> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[18:14] <nick_> Yeah, there are a few issues with the SDR dongle, but I think it's workable
[18:15] <Ben__> that's what I'm currently reading, it seems to be either expensive receiver or SDR dongle with reliability issues
[18:15] <Ben__> Can you not do something with 2.4GHz?
[18:16] <Ben__> or the old model aircraft radios?
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[18:16] <jdtanner> What are the reliability issues that you talk about?
[18:16] <jdtanner> Mine works fine
[18:16] <Gadget-Mac> Ben__: In the UK there are restrictions on what frequencies can be used, and what power
[18:16] <Ben__> I know for a fact 2.4GHz can be used
[18:17] <Ben__> it's used for model aircraft and paired electronically so there's no interference
[18:17] <Gadget-Mac> Not many people have 2.4GHz receivers though.
[18:17] <Ben__> I do
[18:17] <Ben__> Question is would it work
[18:17] <bertrik> I guess the transmit antenna would need to be huge on 27 MHz and you'd get obstruction issues at 2.4 ghz
[18:17] <Ben__> jdtanner, does your SDR work consistently?
[18:17] <jdtanner> Yeah, for hours&no problems with it
[18:18] <Ben__> hmm
[18:18] <Ben__> I guess that'd work then
[18:18] <nick_> jdtanner: do you have the habamp thing?
[18:18] <Ben__> Just concerned about losing the damn thing ;)
[18:18] <jdtanner> Yep, but I've not actually hooked it up yet
[18:18] <russss> 2.4GHz is a noisy band
[18:18] <nick_> Ben__: it's quite likelyt that a number of other habbers will help tracking your flight, some with fancy radio sets.
[18:19] <russss> + higher FSPL
[18:19] <Ben__> possibly, nick
[18:19] <Gadget-Mac> Larger geographical distribution of receiving stations as well
[18:20] <nick_> jdtanner: are you running it with Windows?
[18:20] <Gadget-Mac> Ben__: They will, just drop in here during the next HAB flight, it's very much a community effort
[18:20] <nick_> Maybe I should ask santa for one of these dongles
[18:20] <jdtanner> Why not just get yourself a dongle and see if it meets your needs&if not, you've got a dab dongle :) Nope, using it on a Mac&but my colleague uses his on Windows without any problems.
[18:21] <jdtanner> In fact, I've used mine with a Windows 7 virtual machine under OSX without any problems as well :)
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[18:21] Action: nick_ is running linux, I wasn't sure if there's code available
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[18:21] <Gadget-Mac> nick_: There is
[18:22] <nick_> aha
[18:22] <nick_> It looks like the link on the SDR page is a little deceptive
[18:23] <nick_> Since the "Mac" version is really OS, so I should be able to get it running
[18:23] <nick_> cool
[18:23] Action: nick_ runs off to go make some stuff
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[18:25] <Ben__> WIll this work? It doesn't transmit, but we don't need it to
[18:25] <Ben__> http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/widerxvr/ar8000.html
[18:33] <daveake> Yes, those are great
[18:33] <Ben__> just a case of tracking on down then
[18:33] <Ben__> I've just found a list of open bandwidths on the ukhas wiki that'll help
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[18:39] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:30] <johnboiles> were any of you at SFNewTech last night? Someone mentioned K6rpt-12 and I didn't get their name
[19:33] <johnboiles> whoa, speaking of, what is k6rpt12 doing in algeria?
[19:34] <johnboiles> surely that's a gps glitch right?
[19:34] <fsphil> looks like someone playing with aprs
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[20:44] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Daniels "RE: [UKHAS] Certification"
[20:45] <jdtanner> Evening all
[20:45] <jdtanner> (cliched Police phrase&sorry)
[20:45] <jdtanner> ;)
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[20:49] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Certification"
[20:49] <Upu> evening jdtanner
[20:50] <jdtanner> Quiet in here tonight
[20:51] <Upu> indeed
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> yea it is indeed a fine evening
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> very cold over here though
[20:54] <jdtanner> Whilst it is quiet: if you were using stripboard, would you solder battery leads straight to the borad, or would you use a terminal block?
[20:54] <jdtanner> I'm having an internal argument with myself about the merits of both methods ;)
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> well I think the leads tend to brake off :(
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> that was my experience
[20:57] <jdtanner> Yep&that is my experience as well. However, given how much things get chucked about during descent&I wasn't sure which would be mechanically more stable.
[20:58] <fsphil> I used a 2.54mm header
[20:58] <fsphil> polarised
[20:58] <fsphil> the same kind that PC fans use
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[21:00] <jdtanner> Ooh, that is something I'd thought about as well&but again I wasn;t sure of the mechanical stability
[21:01] <fsphil> some have a little groove that locks them in
[21:01] <jdtanner> Don;t suppose you have a part number?
[21:01] <jdtanner> that would be ideal
[21:01] <fsphil> trying to find them now
[21:02] <jdtanner> brill, cheers :)
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, something like
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> how do you say
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> molex but with just two leads?
[21:03] <daveake> Cheaper to dig into a spares box for some old fans :-)
[21:03] <daveake> Good idea btw fsphil :)
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> what do you do with them?
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> you plug them onto the board somehow?
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> how do you ensure they don't unplug?
[21:03] <jdtanner> Very true&but my spares box was emptied accidentally last time we moved house :(
[21:04] <daveake> damn
[21:04] <daveake> My house *is* a spares box
[21:04] <jdtanner> Lunar_Lander: have you eve tried to undo one of them buggers
[21:04] <jdtanner> ;)
[21:05] <jdtanner> Our house is rather too small to have a part of it dedicated to spares unfortunately&I've got one corner of a undies drawer ;)
[21:05] <griffonbot> Received email: Daniel Richman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Runtime_errorHTTP 403 when using the High Altitude
[21:05] <daveake> According to the mugshot photo, only 25% of my local radio club is beared, and nearly 10% are women
[21:05] <daveake> Amazing
[21:06] <daveake> bearded*
[21:06] <Lunar_Lander> jdtanner, no, never before actually
[21:06] <daveake> And the two groups are mutually exclusive
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[21:06] <jdtanner> Pop open a computer case and try and remove one&you'll probably break a finger ;)
[21:06] <jdtanner> daveake: lol
[21:07] <fsphil> I think the header was molex part 22-27-2021
[21:07] <jdtanner> Sounds a bit like a few astrophysics departments I've worked in
[21:07] <jdtanner> except the two groups weren't exclusive
[21:07] <jdtanner> ;)
[21:07] <daveake> :D
[21:08] <fsphil> but I see they're not exactly the same as the pc fan headers
[21:08] <fsphil> close enough
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> jdtanner, xD OK, that sounds good
[21:09] <jdtanner> yep&very good idea. I might see if anyone has a computer for sale in the local rag and cannibalise it ;)
[21:09] <fsphil> finally a use for 486 motherboards :)
[21:10] <jdtanner> Exactly&although they are all so tight up here that I doubt I;ll get a bargain ;)
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[21:11] <fsphil> the regular headers, like used for the LEDs and reset buttons, work too but they are not as secure
[21:12] <daveake> Indeed. And the polarized type prevent an error that you /know/ is going to happen sooner or later
[21:12] <jdtanner> I think the fan-style connecters is the way forward&either that or a terminal block and a hot glue gun ;)
[21:12] <jdtanner> very true!
[21:13] <daveake> I have a battery-powered glue gun in my launch kit :)
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[21:13] <daveake> As modeled here http://regmedia.co.uk/2012/12/03/spears_team.jpg
[21:13] <Upu> Dave
[21:14] <Upu> warn the ladies before you post that pls
[21:14] <daveake> Not sure what you were about to do with that spanner :)
[21:14] <daveake> ladies? we have ladies?
[21:14] <jdtanner> Guys&I've just eaten
[21:14] <jdtanner> ;)
[21:14] <Upu> I was making kinda "RRRRoar" sound just as he took the pic
[21:15] <Armand> Oooh dear, daveake.... lol
[21:16] <daveake> <evil>I should make something that makes a *BANG* noise and hide it behind Neil next time he uses pyros </evil>
[21:16] <Armand> Jimmy "Gluegun" Bond.. ?
[21:16] <daveake> For the best bond
[21:16] <Armand> ;)
[21:16] <daveake> No, Mr Bond, I expect you to glue your fingers together
[21:16] <Armand> Haha
[21:17] Action: SpeedEvil wonders what Uhu has to say on this.
[21:17] Action: Armand straps a 'No more nails' bomb to SpeedEvil
[21:20] <fsphil> If you've seen anyone in this picture, please do not approach them
[21:21] <Armand> I live in West Drayton.. I don't meet get to people with more than 3 braincells. :P
[21:21] <Armand> *get to meet.. O_o
[21:22] <Armand> typo-edit-fail.
[21:23] <daveake> They are habitual criminals
[21:23] <Armand> Mostly, yes.
[21:24] <Armand> I feel like a metaphorical tree in a corn field here. O_o
[21:25] <daveake> Pun fail
[21:25] <Armand> I think I missed that... ?
[21:25] <griffonbot> Received email: CHRIS INWOOD "[UKHAS] Re: Runtime_errorHTTP 403 when using the High Altitude
[21:25] <daveake> HABitual
[21:25] <Armand> Oohhh
[21:25] <Armand> -_-
[21:25] <daveake> I hate having to explain jokes :p
[21:25] <Armand> Sorry. :P
[21:25] Action: Armand facepalms
[21:25] <daveake> np
[21:25] <Upu> ITS OK DAVE
[21:25] <daveake> :)
[21:25] <fsphil> put down the glue gun dave!
[21:25] <Armand> .... and the plastic bag..
[21:27] <fsphil> so I asked the CAA to email me as soon as possible if there where any problems. so far, silence :)
[21:27] <daveake> hah
[21:28] <daveake> There are no problems
[21:28] <daveake> No notams either
[21:28] <Upu> Phil
[21:28] <Upu> just say "Dake Akerman sent me"
[21:28] <daveake> That's worked before
[21:28] <daveake> :)
[21:28] <Upu> generally does the trick
[21:28] <fsphil> I'll try that on the follow up email ... "Dave Akerman has asked me to check up on the progress ..."
[21:29] <daveake> Or "This is for a flight with Dave Akerman"
[21:29] <daveake> ^^ always works
[21:29] <Upu> or "I have had a long and varied career where I have picked up a variety of skills which makes me a nightmare for people like you"
[21:30] <fsphil> "I will find you"
[21:30] <Upu> phew thankfully someones seen it
[21:31] <Upu> was worried I'd like like a loon for a moment there
[21:31] <jdtanner> I really fancy saying that to one of our customers at work
[21:31] <daveake> lol
[21:31] <daveake> Nah I was just trying to think of a witty reply
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[21:31] <fsphil> lol
[21:31] <jdtanner> probably wouldn;t go down well with the IPCC
[21:31] <jdtanner> ;)
[21:36] <jdtanner> Guys, we are finding that getting NOTAMs for our site is proving to be very easy&David Miller is being a proper gent given how disorganised we are. In fact, he seems to be happy to have launches from the site whenever...
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> woo!
[21:36] <jdtanner> which leads me to think that there is a possibility of a northern launch site for those of us that get a nosebleed going sarf of watford
[21:37] Action: SpeedEvil notes he is in scotland.
[21:38] <jdtanner> Being in the National Park it would be limited to a maximum of 28 days per year due to planning constraints.
[21:38] <jdtanner> Still south for you then SpeedEvil ;)
[21:38] <fsphil> south of me too
[21:38] <fsphil> you're well placed for me to land there :)
[21:38] <jdtanner> Anyway, I'm chucking this out there for discussion :) I can arrange a big hook for your balloon fsphil ;)
[21:39] <fsphil> sweet
[21:39] <fsphil> the trouble with national parks, is they tend to not have many radio towers
[21:39] <fsphil> which is silly really
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> picks are 'just' limited to a sphere enclosing them having a maximum diameter of 2m?
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> picos
[21:39] <fsphil> 2m in any direction
[21:39] <daveake> Which would be a sphere :)
[21:39] <fsphil> so yea
[21:39] <fsphil> shush
[21:40] <jdtanner> lol fsphil&indeed!
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[21:45] <fsphil> can I get you expert folk to glance over this, see if there's any obvious mistakes: http://i.imgur.com/g8lfG.png
[21:45] <jdtanner> Anyhoo, I'll keep you updated as to what Mr Miller says
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[21:45] <Ben__> that would happen to be an arduino board would it?
[21:45] <Ben__> or arduino derived?
[21:45] <fsphil> no relation to arduino at all
[21:46] <Ben__> ah
[21:46] <Ben__> I saw atmega and wondered
[21:46] <fsphil> it's a little pcb for a robot
[21:46] <fsphil> jdtanner: if I've still not launched by next summer, I might visit :)
[21:46] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Daniels "RE: [UKHAS] Certification"
[21:46] <fsphil> I'll be in scotland at some point, and it's not a huge distance away
[21:50] <Ben__> to anyone who's launched, how far do you normally have the craft drift before it lands?
[21:50] <daveake> 10 - 5000 miles
[21:50] <fsphil> if you want it back, as little as possible
[21:50] <Gadget-Mac> fsphil: first glance that schematic looks ok
[21:50] <daveake> ditto
[21:51] <fsphil> phew
[21:51] <Upu> yep same here fsphil
[21:51] <Ben__> 5000 miles?!
[21:51] <Ben__> I hope that was intentional
[21:51] <Upu> do an ERC on it
[21:51] <fsphil> just noticed I haven't connected the vbatt_sense nets to the avr
[21:51] <daveake> Summer tends to be better. Closest I've had landed 10 miles away. Furthest was about 250 miles
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[21:52] <SP9UOB> hi all
[21:52] <fsphil> howdy SP9UOB
[21:52] <Upu> evening
[21:52] <Ben__> daaamn, if it lands 250 miles off I'm not gonna get it back >.>
[21:52] <SP9UOB> is something wrong with http://spacenear.us/tracker/ ?
[21:52] <Ben__> is there a way of predicting jet streams and the like so it won't get blown far?
[21:52] <Upu> negative all working here
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[21:52] <fsphil> I do try to land within 30km
[21:52] <daveake> Yes there's a predictor
[21:52] <fsphil> although I've had one land about 500km away
[21:52] <Upu> Ben__ http://www.habhub.org/predict
[21:52] <SP9UOB> Upu: i see only K6RPt-12
[21:52] <Upu> yep thats normal
[21:52] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Certification"
[21:53] <Upu> thats what its showing atm
[21:53] <Ben__> ah, thanks Upu
[21:53] <SP9UOB> and not mine telemetry
[21:53] <Ben__> I'll have to launch when it's a small distance... anyone ever dropped in someone's garden? xD
[21:53] <daveake> yes
[21:53] <Upu> checking..
[21:53] <fsphil> hmm
[21:53] <SP9UOB> "_sentence": "$$SP9UOB,20,21:52:34,5016.64114,01839.206399,251*2FCC\n",
[21:53] <fsphil> your data is parsing correctly
[21:54] <SP9UOB> fsphil: i know, but not showing on the map
[21:54] <Upu> it is
[21:54] <Upu> appears we have an issue
[21:54] <fsphil> wait I bet habitat is still pushing to the other spacenear server
[21:54] <SP9UOB> fsphil: :-)
[21:54] <Upu> can you fix it ?
[21:55] <Ben__> last question for today, regarding parachute deployment, do you guys use an acceleromater to detect when the balloon pops then deploy straight away or delay it?
[21:55] <Upu> Ben__ just launch with it already deployed
[21:55] <fsphil> I'll have a look
[21:55] <Upu> check out the launch video we did last weekend
[21:55] <Upu> daveake got a link ?
[21:55] <Ben__> so basically it's deployed from *pop* then
[21:55] <Ben__> Upu, got a link? :)
[21:55] <Ben__> As a complete novice it'd be good to have a look ^^'
[21:56] <SP9UOB> fsphil: anyway - i cant bet - hazard is illegal in Poland ;-)
[21:56] <daveake> justamo
[21:56] <Upu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2jcnJmj0l9I
[21:56] <Upu> got it
[21:56] <daveake> http://youtu.be/2jcnJmj0l9I
[21:56] <daveake> ah
[21:57] <daveake> 5kg of lift there
[21:57] <Ben__> is it really necessary to have the cord that long? 0.o
[21:57] <SP9UOB> anyway i just made RFM02 to work with small RTTY shift, just by pulling reference crystal by varactor diode :-)
[21:58] <daveake> And it was a good job I bought a BIG reel of cord, considering how much Upu measured out :p
[21:58] <Upu> lol
[21:58] <Upu> I blame Neil
[21:58] <Upu> I have no idea what happened there tbh
[21:58] <Ben__> biggest cord ever
[21:59] <daveake> Long is good for stability (camera/signal) and for ensuring that even if the chute lands at the top of a tree, the payload's probably on the ground :)
[21:59] <Ben__> good point
[21:59] <Upu> yes thats what it was on purpose and everything
[21:59] <Ben__> it affects stability?
[21:59] <daveake> OTOH more chance of draping over a power line or house or road
[21:59] <daveake> yes
[21:59] <Ben__> *takes notes*
[21:59] <Ben__> didn't know that
[22:00] <Ben__> what's LOHAN stand for, Upu? :)
[22:00] <Upu> low orbit helium assisted navigator
[22:00] <Ben__> aha, cool
[22:00] <Upu> absolutely not one word in there is true
[22:00] <daveake> Lots Of Hydrogen And Numpties
[22:00] <Ben__> I got KESTREL to fit ours, dead chuffed
[22:01] <Ben__> lol
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[22:03] <Ben__> assuming you got that one back?
[22:04] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Aerospace "Re: [UKHAS] Certification"
[22:06] <Upu> no its in the english channel if you want it
[22:06] <Ben__> :O
[22:06] <Ben__> where did you launch it?
[22:06] <Upu> seriously if you find it keep the GoPro , the Iridium the Arduino Mega and all the other stuff just let us have the SD back
[22:06] <Ben__> I live nowhere near the coast :P
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[22:07] <Ben__> Wow, if I was to launch from where I live tomorrow at midday, it'd end up in the channel off the coast of dover 0.o
[22:07] <Upu> welcome to our world
[22:07] <Ben__> surely it'd ascend faster than 5ms^-1
[22:07] <daveake> The SD will be the only item resembling its original shape and composition
[22:07] <daveake> 5m/s is at landing
[22:08] <Ben__> I've got that predictor up
[22:08] <Ben__> what's the general ascende speed?
[22:08] <daveake> It'll be 50+m/s at peak
[22:08] <Ben__> obviously we're going to test this sorta thing but still
[22:08] <Ben__> right
[22:08] <daveake> 5m/s
[22:08] <Ben__> 5m/s max?
[22:08] <daveake> It's pretty much constant on the way up
[22:08] <Ben__> i'd've thought it'd climb faster
[22:08] <daveake> For an "average" flight the defaults are good
[22:09] <daveake> Balloon gets bigger = more resistance
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> daveake: aren't go pros waterproof?
[22:09] <daveake> All balanaces out, pretty much
[22:09] <daveake> Only in the case
[22:09] <Ben__> suppose
[22:09] <Ben__> surely bigger balloon with smaler payload and the pressure difference pulls more?
[22:09] <Ben__> it's not exactly at the terminal velocity @ 5m/s surely
[22:09] <daveake> For helium it pretty much is a straight line. H2 tends to accelerate.
[22:10] <Ben__> mhm
[22:10] <daveake> We *aim* for 5m/s, generally. So a lighter payload will get less gas
[22:10] <Ben__> right, oj
[22:10] <Ben__> ok*
[22:10] <Ben__> I"m assuming during the summer it tends to be less windy
[22:10] <daveake> Last weekend we aimed for 6.5m/s, to avoid the sea. Oh well.
[22:10] <daveake> Yes
[22:10] <Ben__> ah
[22:11] <Ben__> guess it doesn't help to be running test predctions in the middle of winter then
[22:11] <Ben__> how accurate's the predictor usually?
[22:11] <daveake> Winter can be fine; we got caught out by some dodgy data
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[22:11] <daveake> The predictor is very good. usually the errors are mostly that the ascent/descent/burst figures aren't what you told it
[22:12] <Ben__> I wouldn't risk winter with the thing predicting me travelling the breadth of england to have a chance of recovering it
[22:13] <daveake> No, summer is much easier. Less risk of hitting the sea. Less distance to travel. More chance of getting to the landing area early.
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> hello Ben, welcome
[22:13] <Ben__> Hey Lunar
[22:13] <Ben__> thanks ^^
[22:13] <fsphil> winter launch: http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/hab/hadie4-track.png :)
[22:13] <Ben__> I'm more or less as far in land as you can get so if I'm hitting the sea you can tell I shouldn't be launching xD
[22:14] <Ben__> lmao
[22:14] <Ben__> we did consider putting return instructions in french on it in case of us hitting a jetstream :P
[22:15] <fsphil> it's worth doing
[22:15] <daveake> It's a good job I launched Buzz2 when I did. I aimed for and hit Belgium. These days I can't even hit my own country :p
[22:15] <Ben__> ya
[22:15] <Ben__> ahaha
[22:15] <Ben__> why woujld you intentionally hit belgium xD
[22:15] <fsphil> they deserved it
[22:15] <daveake> Does that need answering?
[22:15] <Ben__> we considered spanish, danish and german then decided if we were hiting inland europe we were doing something wrong
[22:15] <Ben__> lololol
[22:15] <daveake> Fancied a day out :)
[22:16] <daveake> Next time I'll try and hit Lu.... er, germany
[22:16] <fsphil> xD
[22:16] <daveake> I meant Luxembourg ;-)
[22:16] <Ben__> if you can make russia you get a cookie
[22:16] <daveake> (no I didn't)
[22:16] <fsphil> one flight quite probably did reach russia
[22:17] <Armand> Should I guess that most in here are Brits ?
[22:17] <fsphil> but it went out of range so we don't know where it landed
[22:17] <daveake> most yes
[22:17] <Armand> Good. ;) lol
[22:17] <daveake> plenty of others though
[22:17] <Ben__> I'm a brit
[22:17] <Ben__> well, irish, but in britain
[22:17] <Ben__> anyway, I've gotta run
[22:17] <Ben__> later guys :D
[22:17] <Armand> That's ok.. all countries are welcome in nation-bashing. :P
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[23:07] <fsphil> does 100nF == 0.1uF?
[23:07] <bertrik> yes
[23:08] <fsphil> thanks. I had a mixture and just realised they're all the same
[23:08] <bertrik> there are different kinds of capacitors with different kinds of applications
[23:08] <jdtanner> Google does the conversion & i find it pretty cool :) https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=100+nanofahrads+in+microfahrads&oq=100+nanofahrads+in+microfahrads&aqs=chrome.0.57.8294&sugexp=chrome,mod=11&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&spell=1&q=100+nanofarads+in+microfarads&sa=X&ei=ayXBULD0BOeX0QXpg4GAAw&ved=0CC4QvwUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=4287d246fed99c6b&bpcl=39650382&biw=1174&bih=659
[23:09] <fsphil> these are all for isolation
[23:09] <fsphil> if that's the correct erm
[23:09] <fsphil> term*
[23:09] <fsphil> (for putting on a VCC pin on an IC)
[23:10] <fsphil> or is that decoupling
[23:10] <bertrik> yeah decoupling I think
[23:11] <Lunar_Lander> or
[23:11] <Lunar_Lander> https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=100+nF
[23:11] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:12] <fsphil> ah wolfram
[23:12] <fsphil> keep forgetting that's there
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[23:29] <lz1dev> wolfram is rearly useful
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[23:33] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:33] <Lunar_Lander> I like it
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[23:46] <Laurenceb_> really or rarely?
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[00:00] --- Fri Dec 7 2012