highaltitude.log.20121205

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[00:29] <astrodog> How long since K6RPT-12 launched?
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[00:30] <Darkside> you'd think it would have been in range of something by now
[00:30] <arko> it's just doing donuts in the atlantic
[00:30] <arko> trollin at high altitudes
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[01:03] <Dan-K2VOL> hey darkside
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[01:05] <arko> ok
[01:06] <arko> so im going to get a high speed camera and do parachute tests for different orientations and configurations
[01:06] <arko> like parachute tied to balloon rope
[01:06] <arko> 1/3 - 2/3
[01:06] <arko> then balloon tied to top of parachute
[01:06] <arko> do some drop tests and see what happens
[01:07] <arko> i will post results
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[01:17] <heathkid> interesting storm pattern over the north atlantic
[01:21] <astrodog> How long has K6RPT-12 been up? (Curious as to how long its batteries will hold out)
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[01:55] <SpeedEvil> astrodog: someone said it should do 60 whores earlier
[01:55] <SpeedEvil> hours
[01:55] <astrodog> Whores is much funnier.
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[02:52] <astrodog> Is anyone listening for K6RPT-12 in N. Africa?
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[03:18] <heathkid> I'm not
[03:20] <heathkid> I missed it going over Chicago / Northern Indiana... I "might" have been able to hear it from here (Central Indiana)
[03:22] <heathkid> it was traveling at over 200 MPH at the time too
[03:22] <SpeedEvil> wrote
[03:22] <SpeedEvil> wow
[03:23] <heathkid> I "think" the fastest it got was right at about 220 MPH
[03:23] <heathkid> I may be wrong (maybe faster?)
[03:23] <heathkid> I know I saw 219
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[03:27] <heathkid> but it was right at about 200 MPH as it crossed Lake Michigan
[03:27] <heathkid> at around 110k feet
[03:28] <heathkid> I didn't think the jetstream went up that high and didn't think the winds at over 100k ft. were that fast...
[03:28] <heathkid> learning a lot
[03:28] <heathkid> mainly that I don't know anything! :)
[03:31] <heathkid> polar jet and a subtropical jetstreams only go up to about 52k feet (wikipedia)
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[03:33] <heathkid> highest speed measured was 247 mph
[03:33] <heathkid> for a jetstream
[03:33] <heathkid> so that balloon is moving along pretty darn good!
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[03:45] <heathkid> at least it was...
[03:45] <heathkid> awesome!!!! someone picked up the signal in Spain!
[03:46] <heathkid> 2012-12-05 03:40:30z
[03:46] <heathkid> 74 MPH 145° alt 4167 ft
[03:46] <heathkid> V199 CNSP-18 CNSP-Inc.com700
[03:47] <arko> ITS BACK
[03:47] <arko> IT"S BACK
[03:47] <arko> WOOO!!!
[03:47] <arko> holy crap
[03:47] <arko> that was insane
[03:47] <heathkid> hope it doesn't get stuck on a pyramid!
[03:47] <arko> or shot down by Libyans
[03:47] <heathkid> no kidding!
[03:48] <arko> 4000ft though?
[03:48] <arko> sounds like it's on it's way down
[03:48] <heathkid> thank you EA7FQB!
[03:52] <heathkid> hopefully it makes it a few hundred more miles...
[03:52] <heathkid> should be heating up again now
[03:52] <heathkid> when is sunrise in NE Africa?
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[03:54] <heathkid> oh
[03:55] <SpeedEvil> woo. and hoo.
[03:55] <heathkid> right now it's UTC 0
[03:56] <SpeedEvil> where is that?
[03:56] <SpeedEvil> oh
[03:56] <SpeedEvil> nv,
[03:56] <SpeedEvil> m
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[03:56] <heathkid> Casablanca
[03:56] <astrodog> Woah.
[03:56] <SpeedEvil> might it mean 40000ft?
[03:57] <astrodog> Alt is corrected.
[03:57] <astrodog> 110k
[03:57] <SpeedEvil> is there a link to tracker ?
[03:57] <astrodog> It's trying for the loop.
[03:57] <astrodog> http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a%2FK6RPT-12&timerange=3600
[03:57] <heathkid> 2012-12-05 03:52:30z - 2012-12-05 03:56:30z
[03:57] <heathkid> 74 MPH 102° alt 109373 ft
[03:57] <heathkid> V188 CNSP-18 CNSP-Inc.com700
[03:58] <arko> wow
[03:58] <heathkid> why is what I'm looking at so much higher?
[03:58] <arko> yeah thats grat
[03:58] <astrodog> Yeah... the Atlantic ridge completely collapsed on it.
[03:58] <heathkid> I'm tracking here: http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FK6RPT-12&timerange=3600
[03:58] <heathkid> major altitude adjustment!
[03:59] <heathkid> heading straight towards Casablanca!
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[04:00] <astrodog> The 4k is probably one of it's bad locations.
[04:00] <heathkid> about 200 miles to go for transatlantic!
[04:01] <heathkid> how do these guys do this???
[04:01] <heathkid> blows my mind!
[04:02] <heathkid> and although it's slowed... it's still at over 100k ft. (*wow*)
[04:02] <heathkid> how am I supposed to get any sleep NOW??????
[04:03] <heathkid> :P
[04:03] <heathkid> EST sucks!
[04:03] <heathkid> have to be at work in 8 hours (with over an hour drive to get there)
[04:03] <heathkid> but I want to watch this
[04:06] <heathkid> at this rate... it very well may land in Libya
[04:07] <heathkid> or yet another southern California launch to splash down in the Mediterranean Sea
[04:08] <heathkid> is there some magical link from California to the Mediterranean?
[04:16] <astrodog> Kinda. :P
[04:18] <astrodog> Were the Azores listening?
[04:21] <arko> this is so amazing
[04:22] <arko> how do they control altitude
[04:28] <SpeedEvil> not
[04:28] <SpeedEvil> it's a latex balloon
[04:30] <heathkid> is there a project website for this launch?
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[04:30] <heathkid> I'd love to see some pics
[04:31] <arko> ohhhh
[04:31] <arko> wow i feel stupid now
[04:31] <arko> heathkid: http://www.californianearspaceproject.com/
[04:37] <meatmanek> nice, they picked up k6rpt-12 again?
[04:38] <arko> yeah
[04:38] <arko> so crazy
[04:40] <heathkid> not crazy... awesome!
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[04:44] <heathkid> thanks arko for the link
[04:57] <x-f> oh, wow
[04:57] <x-f> it really made it to the Morocco!
[04:58] <x-f> morning all
[05:03] <x-f> http://twitter.com/K6RPT/status/276180658257276928
[05:03] <x-f> hmm
[05:03] <x-f> "Li-Ion batteries"?
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[05:05] <bgelb_> slowing down
[05:05] <astrodog> It's in the doldrums, isn't it?
[05:06] <astrodog> Do they have a way to download past telemetry?
[05:08] <KT5TK> astrodog: No unfortunately not. It's a simple APRS tracker
[05:08] <astrodog> Also... has anyone... er, told Morrocco that there's a floating radio beacon meandering towards them? :P
[05:09] <bgelb_> i just emailed the Algerian Radio Amateurs
[05:10] <bgelb_> hopefully coverage from spain will keep up for a while
[05:10] <astrodog> What's the regulatory framework for APRS in Morocco? Heh.
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[05:19] <meatmanek> it probably falls under morrocan amateur radio
[05:20] <meatmanek> generally speaking, you can do amateur radio in other countries, so long as you follow their rules
[05:21] <meatmanek> but at the same time, it doesn't really matter
[05:21] <bgelb_> still mystified why it was not heard in azores
[05:25] <astrodog> bgelb: Was Azores listening?
[05:28] <bgelb_> yea
[05:28] <bgelb_> they might have missed the original acquisition, as it would have been early AM
[05:28] <astrodog> bgel: Weird.
[05:28] <bgelb_> but I heard from them this morning (PST)
[05:28] <bgelb_> they were listening all day
[05:28] <bgelb_> would have been in range for quite a while
[05:28] <astrodog> Maybe their batteries got too cold, and the whole thing died for a bit?
[05:29] <bgelb_> could be.. but it was daytime
[05:30] <bgelb_> I think.
[05:31] <astrodog> That's bizzare. If you draw a circle around the Azores that's within a reasonable detection distance... the possible routes are weird.
[05:32] <bgelb_> yea
[05:32] <bgelb_> itd have to go pretty far out of the way
[05:32] <bgelb_> the crossing took longer than I expected too
[05:33] <bgelb_> though I guess it has slowed quite a bit from its originally mach speed
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[05:45] <johnboiles> oh whoa hey congrats! Morocco it is!
[05:48] <johnboiles> I didn't realize wind patterns were so variable at 115148 ft
[05:50] <johnboiles> i look forward to seeing where K6RPT-12 goes next!
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[05:51] <oh7lzb> It's alive!
[05:52] <johnboiles> neat!
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[06:13] <daveake> Morning
[06:14] <daveake> K6RPT-12 turned up then. Excellent. I wonder if it'll make it past Libya :p
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[06:16] <KT5TK> First it'll be interesting what effect the landfall will have on the altitude.
[06:16] <arko> morning
[06:17] <KT5TK> then I hope that the sun won't heat it up too much
[06:17] <astrodog> I still don't get what route it took, if it skipped over the Azores.
[06:18] <arko> i wonder what the rules are for sending payloads over other counties airspaces
[06:18] <astrodog> arko: Does the other country have an extradition treaty?
[06:18] <astrodog> If not... they're fairly simple.
[06:19] <Upu> off to libya
[06:19] <Upu> haha
[06:19] <x-f> afaik, you need a permission from the other country CAA, if it is not a meteo sonde
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[06:20] <astrodog> x-f: So... what happens with K6RPT-12?
[06:20] <astrodog> Personally, I'm hoping they decide to shoot it down. It'd be a wonderfully exciting end.
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[06:21] <x-f> astrodog, nothing, nobody will care :)
[06:25] <astrodog> I could see Iran announcing it as another drone kill.
[06:25] <astrodog> :P
[06:25] <KT5TK> It's heading directly towards the only big forest I see in Morocco. Tree landing?
[06:25] <astrodog> Ha.
[06:25] <astrodog> That'd be pretty damn funny. Manage to land in... pretty much the only forested area in Northern Africa.
[06:26] <astrodog> Actually... what about that lake?
[06:26] <astrodog> Water landing!
[06:28] <x-f> that lake in Algeria?
[06:28] <astrodog> I was thinking of Morrocco, but Algeria'd be fun too.
[06:29] <aj> lake victoria?
[06:29] <astrodog> Anyone modeled it past Morrocco? The predictor did pretty well so far.
[06:29] <x-f> could be about time to burst after sunrise
[06:29] <Upu> likely to drag down over algeria
[06:30] <astrodog> Upu: I wish they had recorded telemetry... the path to Morrocco over the Atlantic would be... really useful to know. :\
[06:31] <Upu> Again I'd love to run the predictor but it does not like me
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[06:31] <astrodog> We could try craag's link.
[06:31] <astrodog> He's got a functional one up. One sec.
[06:33] <radim_OM2AMR> unbe;ievable, still lives...
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[06:34] <Upu> his seems to work
[06:34] <Upu> Wonder what APRS coverage is like in Algeria
[06:34] <Upu> damn they should have switched frequenies
[06:34] <astrodog> Upu: Interesting.
[06:34] <astrodog> GFS has a huge hole.
[06:35] <radim_OM2AMR> although battery is under 1A0, they said should be weaker
[06:35] <Upu> damn these crappy ads on aprs.fi, there is this what can only be descibed as a swamp donkey starring at me from the cornder of the screen
[06:35] <astrodog> It has them crossing around the middle of Algeria.
[06:35] <astrodog> Ha.
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[06:35] <Upu> I'll click it anyway so oh7lzb gets some money
[06:36] <astrodog> So... if we run it all the way out.
[06:36] <astrodog> It hits greece.
[06:36] <radim_OM2AMR> I'm asking myself, if that altitude is real, if so, it's ubelievable then
[06:36] <astrodog> It hits greece in... wow, 4 hours.
[06:37] <lz1dev> wow
[06:37] <lz1dev> k6rpt-12 made it
[06:37] <lz1dev> :D
[06:37] <astrodog> Some incredible winds over the desert/med if it can keep going.
[06:38] <KT5TK> Beach Voley Ball
[06:38] <astrodog> Be kinda funny if they drop another one in the med.
[06:47] <daveake> Over land again now
[06:47] <x-f> battery is down to 3.96V
[06:48] <astrodog> Anyone have it in Africa?
[06:48] <astrodog> (BTW... assuming the predictor is correct, and it doesn't pop...
[06:48] <astrodog> It will actually overfly Iran.
[06:48] <astrodog> :P
[06:54] <arko> oh crap it got shot down!
[06:54] <arko> :P
[06:55] <astrodog> Ha.
[06:55] <astrodog> Still having the annoying telemetry issue.
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[06:55] <astrodog> In the next hour or two, it should speed up quite a bit.
[06:55] <lz1dev> morning jcoxon
[06:56] <jcoxon> :-)
[06:56] <jcoxon> k6rpt do it again
[06:56] <jcoxon> they have a gift
[06:57] <arko> SICK RECOVERY
[06:58] <radim_OM2AMR> another nice example why to put two or three more "Stirks" into the Hwoyee balloon to avoid floating :-D
[06:58] <astrodog> I still want to know how the Azores missed it.
[06:58] <jcoxon> might not have been listening
[06:59] <radim_OM2AMR> Azores listening maybe on 144.8 MHz
[06:59] <jcoxon> or that the tx could have gone quiet there
[06:59] <jcoxon> its having a few difficulties already
[06:59] <jcoxon> with the gps issues
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[07:00] <x-f> however it was in daylight when it passed Azores
[07:00] <astrodog> Also...
[07:00] <astrodog> Go predictor: https://www.thecraag.com/predict/#!/uuid=69f7c60c3c5f73f28a5ca71862ea4b621a351f8d
[07:00] <x-f> it is in the dark now and transmitting
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[07:04] <jcoxon> if i wasn't working for the next few days i'd so go and get it...
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[07:05] <x-f> here's the updated graph - http://x-f.lv/x-files/pics/k6rpt-12.png
[07:05] <astrodog> How much longer do they think the battery has left?
[07:06] <jcoxon> i think the balloon might fail next sunrise
[07:06] <jcoxon> (well a few hours after sunrise)
[07:07] <astrodog> If it survives another cycle... the thing will be past Turkey, according to the predictor.
[07:07] <x-f> CNSP expect to have power for 60+ hours, it is now 53 hours in the air
[07:08] <astrodog> x-f: Hell, that gets it to greece if the balloon holds out.
[07:08] <astrodog> It should speed up quite a bit shortly.
[07:08] <x-f> then nosebleedkt will pick it up for you, jcoxon :)
[07:10] <astrodog> Already up to 103.
[07:11] <astrodog> Er, hell. One of those crap fixes. :P
[07:14] <x-f> now they show 42 to 46 m, up from 35-37, maybe they are related to the date
[07:16] <lz1dev> bufferoverflows
[07:17] <arko> so i have a question here
[07:17] <arko> why do so many payloads lose GPS signals
[07:17] <astrodog> arko: This one isn't losing it, but a bunch of things can screw that up.
[07:17] <arko> oh no
[07:17] <arko> i know
[07:18] <arko> but it seems like a lot of these habs loose gps
[07:18] <nayr> oah crap its back
[07:18] <arko> lose*
[07:18] <nayr> horray
[07:18] <arko> :)
[07:18] <nayr> go off to watch batman and look what happens
[07:18] <nayr> it just got waaay slow huh?
[07:21] <eroomde> morning all
[07:21] <astrodog> Morning.
[07:21] <arko> hey!
[07:21] <arko> did you see K6RPT is back?
[07:21] <eroomde> today is quite an important day for us
[07:21] <arko> oh?
[07:21] <eroomde> oh no?
[07:21] <eroomde> awesome
[07:21] <arko> http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FK6RPT-12&timerange=604800
[07:21] <eroomde> where is it now?
[07:21] <arko> it's cray
[07:22] <arko> whats special about today
[07:22] <eroomde> nice
[07:22] <eroomde> they've done it again
[07:22] <arko> seriously awesome
[07:22] <eroomde> important rather than special
[07:22] <eroomde> the autumn budget in the UK
[07:23] <eroomde> there might (hopefully) be something about skylon
[07:24] <arko> nice
[07:24] <arko> good luck
[07:24] <eroomde> thanks
[07:24] <eroomde> i still seem to bear wearing a shirt and tie
[07:24] <arko> i'd like to see reaction get some more funding
[07:25] <arko> i like the companies attitude
[07:25] <arko> we finally publically announced "Curiosity 2" today
[07:25] <arko> 2020
[07:25] #highaltitude: mode change '-o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[07:25] <eroomde> i'd like to see us get more fundinf too
[07:25] <eroomde> yeah i saw!
[07:25] <eroomde> awesome
[07:25] <arko> :)
[07:26] <eroomde> so, same chassis and different instruments?
[07:26] <arko> we had to keep quite
[07:26] <arko> same chassis
[07:26] <arko> some different instrumentation
[07:26] <arko> we started using the charge number, and im like, ok so it's offical ay?
[07:26] <arko> hah
[07:27] <eroomde> they joy of being open
[07:27] <eroomde> the*
[07:27] <eroomde> in ESA you might have been charging to a project for 3 years but they still haven't actually decided if it's ossicial or not. or if they want to talk about it
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[07:29] <eroomde> arko: do you know what kind of instruments will be on it yet?
[07:29] <eroomde> you should really have caled them curious and curioser
[07:29] <arko> not sure thats public yet
[07:29] <eroomde> a la Alice in Wonderland
[07:29] <astrodog> eroomde: Or land them on something called "The Cat".
[07:29] <astrodog> :P
[07:29] <arko> it's up in the air because of budgetting really
[07:30] <eroomde> yah i know that feeling
[07:30] <eroomde> although i hope to know it less after christmas
[07:31] <arko> totally true about the charging
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[07:33] <arko> so does anyone have an explaination about why so many of these habs lose gps and before burst or osmething and never transmit again?
[07:33] <arko> was it the 60,000ft limit?
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[07:34] <astrodog> arko: Lots of things can go wrong...
[07:34] <astrodog> Cold, lost lock, etc.
[07:34] <radim_OM2AMR> arko, it should be wrong COCOM implementation in it, or receiver jamming for example
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[07:38] <arko> i just dont get why it would lose lock if you are practically line of sight to so many satellites
[07:38] <astrodog> arko: Cold makes water condense... shorts out and detunes the antenna.
[07:38] <astrodog> Cold breaks the electronics directly.
[07:39] <astrodog> Hot breaks the electronics directly.
[07:39] <arko> good answers
[07:39] <x-f> most may have radio antenna problems after burst
[07:40] <radim_OM2AMR> another reason could be GPS power restart, when GPS without backup battery will wait for lock about minute or more
[07:41] <eroomde> the only time i've seen it on a float we put it down to cold soak
[07:41] <arko> ok, so im going to epoxy (not actually epoxy) the board
[07:41] <arko> prevent cold liquids from changing anything
[07:41] <eroomde> but equally where one puts some effort into insulation and perhaps a confirmal coating, i've never seen a problem
[07:41] <eroomde> i just use acylic spray
[07:41] <eroomde> a couple of coats
[07:41] <eroomde> job's a good'n
[07:42] <eroomde> potting is a bit final :)
[07:42] <arko> sounds good to me
[07:44] <bgelb> def rising in altitude
[07:44] <bgelb> creeping up a few hundred ft
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[07:46] <arko> is it possible that they will go around the world?
[07:46] <astrodog> Anyone know what their estimated burst height is?
[07:46] <astrodog> arko: Technically possible? Sure. Incredibly unlikely, though. The balloon is degrading.
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[07:47] <arko> someone needs to design a better balloon :P
[07:47] <astrodog> We, however, will not hear from it past a day, at most. *grin*
[07:47] <radim_OM2AMR> astrodog - it's hwoyee woo-doo :-)
[07:47] <astrodog> They have...
[07:47] <astrodog> But what happens when the battery dies?
[07:47] <astrodog> :P
[07:47] <arko> well for around the world could you do solar?
[07:48] <radim_OM2AMR> silence on 144.390 will begin
[07:48] <astrodog> arko: Sure.
[07:48] <fsphil> oh it's back!
[07:49] <fsphil> I wasn't expecting that
[07:49] <x-f> battery up to 4.36V now
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[07:50] <arko> "Last Path: Seriously Bad Path"
[07:50] <arko> haha
[07:52] <mfa298> that balloon must have slowed down a lot if it's only just made europe/africa
[07:58] <astrodog> It has... it should speed up now, though.
[07:59] <eroomde> arko: i like nice error messages like that
[07:59] <eroomde> at work we often say '\badness 10000'
[08:00] <eroomde> in honour of the rather forcefull LaTeX error message
[08:02] <bgelb> hmmm
[08:02] <bgelb> slightly off position...
[08:02] <eroomde> oh hello bgelb
[08:02] <Darkside> overflow error?
[08:03] <bgelb> burst, or gps freak out...
[08:03] <Darkside> thats not going to be a burst
[08:03] <bgelb> i heard 109373ft was an error code or something?
[08:03] <Darkside> that looks like a coding error
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[08:04] <arko> woah
[08:04] <astrodog> Falling?
[08:04] <Darkside> gps error
[08:04] <arko> haha, i love how it looks like it a jet
[08:04] <nosebleedkt> Hello people
[08:04] <astrodog> Dark: Huh.
[08:05] <nosebleedkt> Darkside, my friends here find it difficult what you did :D
[08:06] <lz1dev> wait
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[08:06] <lz1dev> not that way balloon :(
[08:08] <astrodog> Ha.
[08:09] <daveake> Well that's one way of avoiding Libya
[08:09] <oh7lzb> Quite a warp.
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[08:10] <johnboiles> whoa
[08:10] <lz1dev> did it cross the prime meridian ?
[08:10] <astrodog> It did that a bit ago.
[08:10] <astrodog> Di...
[08:10] <johnboiles> wormhole
[08:10] <eroomde> bbc news commenter: "While it's an Autumn Budget, it will have a distinctly wintery feel"
[08:10] <eroomde> splendid.
[08:11] <oh7lzb> This time it's stuck there.
[08:11] <astrodog> They just lost telemetry... kind of.
[08:11] <astrodog> West has become North.
[08:12] <lz1dev> nosebleedkt: snowing at your qth?
[08:12] <nosebleedkt> hi
[08:12] <nosebleedkt> eeh
[08:12] <nosebleedkt> no
[08:12] <nosebleedkt> just stupid cold
[08:12] <nosebleedkt> gets my nose bleeding when driving my moto :D
[08:13] <nosebleedkt> which part of BG are you located?
[08:13] <lz1dev> snowing hard around here
[08:14] <astrodog> Huh.
[08:14] <astrodog> So what does it do now? :P
[08:15] <bgelb> wonder why gps is so finnicky all flight
[08:15] <bgelb> would think it would have quite good reception
[08:16] <astrodog> So...
[08:16] <astrodog> The only way to track it now, is to see who has it in range?
[08:16] <astrodog> Heh.
[08:16] <bgelb> maybe local osc very sensitive to temp
[08:17] <bgelb> battery voltage going up... so doesn't seem like power loss
[08:17] <astrodog> bgelb: It's been wonky even before it sat in the cold.
[08:17] <bgelb> yea...
[08:17] <bgelb> i mean
[08:17] <bgelb> its still cold tho
[08:17] <bgelb> just not as cold
[08:17] <bgelb> *shrug*
[08:17] <bgelb> seems like it should have solid lock
[08:17] <bgelb> maybe antenna is busted
[08:18] <bgelb> receivers are sensitive enough these days you could have busted antenna and still basically work
[08:18] <astrodog> This does make ED7ZAE look impressive as hell.
[08:18] <bgelb> heh
[08:18] <astrodog> Do they have *any* other telemetry source, or is this it?
[08:18] <daveake> It's a standard tracker but the GPS was changed (from Lassen to UBlox). It's possible that the code that parses the NMEA strings has a bug that is triggered by a difference between the strings sent by the 2 devices.
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[08:19] <daveake> Lock issues don't IME produce the errors we're seeing
[08:19] <bgelb> hope so... not a ringing endorsement for ublox if its really a lock issue
[08:20] <daveake> We've flown a lot of ublox modules here and they've been excellent
[08:20] <lz1dev> indeed
[08:20] <astrodog> Is there a way to query aprs.fi for all stations in range?
[08:21] <astrodog> (That "hear" it, anyway.)
[08:21] <lz1dev> its still transmittiong
[08:21] <astrodog> lz: Yeah. I'm thinking of how to track it by which stations hear it, rather than telemetry.
[08:22] <lz1dev> you can just look at the path
[08:22] <oh7lzb> Hover mouse cursor on top of the station / point on aprs.fi, and it draws a line to the receiver.
[08:22] <astrodog> lz: Say, 3 hours from now. When we don't know what it's done.
[08:23] <astrodog> Is there a way to get a list of all stations that are recieving it?
[08:23] <lz1dev> i think aprs.fi drops repeated packets
[08:23] <oh7lzb> The wide2-1 gives aprs.fi a strong hint that the the packet has been digipeated already by some digipeater, so it doesn't give credit to the receivers as hearing it directly.
[08:23] <lz1dev> so you won't be able to see all the stations recieving it
[08:24] <oh7lzb> Actually, the APRS-IS server network which passes the packets from the receiving stations (igates) to aprs.fi already removes duplicate packets happening within 30 seconds.
[08:24] <oh7lzb> So aprs.fi does not get to see all the received duplicate copies any way.
[08:24] <astrodog> Any other source of the same information that might work? Trying to track it with 1 station isn't going to be particularly precise... but a few of them might get close.
[08:25] <oh7lzb> astrodog: Nope.
[08:25] <lz1dev> oh7lzb: ah, :)
[08:25] <lz1dev> makes sense
[08:25] <astrodog> oh7: Gotcha. Huh.
[08:26] <oh7lzb> I'm sort of working to obtain the duplicate packets. I wrote a new open-source APRS-IS server software together with oh2mqk, it was released in September, and is now running on about 1/3rd of the APRS-IS servers. At some point it'll allow us to collect the duplicate packets to a central place.
[08:26] <oh7lzb> It's high-performance enough to do that.
[08:26] <lz1dev> V200
[08:26] <lz1dev> only battery reading is changing
[08:26] <oh7lzb> http://he.fi/aprsc/ https://github.com/hessu/aprsc
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[08:27] <cm13g09> woah - it turned up then!
[08:27] <astrodog> oh7: Gotcha. Out of curiousity... what's the rate?
[08:28] <oh7lzb> Which rate?
[08:28] <astrodog> How many packets are we talking about, including dupes?
[08:29] <oh7lzb> Uniques: depends on the averaging time, there are sharp spikes in it (stupid gps/ntp-synchronized transmitters transmitting every 5 or 10 minutes ON THE MINUTE)
[08:30] <oh7lzb> but about 40...50 packets / second only for 1-minute averages
[08:30] <astrodog> What's the peak, during a spike?
[08:30] <oh7lzb> there can be 60-80 packets/sec spikes over a few seconds I think.
[08:30] <oh7lzb> Not a lot!
[08:31] <oh7lzb> Duplicates are removed on any server, so if they are collected at some place, it'll be hundreds of packets per second.
[08:32] <astrodog> Ah.
[08:32] <astrodog> Still need a kqueue implementation? (Looking at the README.sources)
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[08:33] <oh7lzb> Almost every packet is repeated 2 to 4 times on the radio channel by digipeater (that doesn't happen for the stations directly connected to the Internet). And then 1 to 4 igates here those packets.
[08:33] <oh7lzb> It could be 3*2 duplicates for 3 digipeat copies which are heard by 2 igates.
[08:34] <astrodog> Gotcha.
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[08:35] <oh7lzb> astrodog: Yeah, it hasn't been done yet. "Need" is relative - with current small amounts of users and traffic, aprsc takes < 1% CPU on a typical server. 10% on Raspberry Pi with 150 users. :)
[08:35] <astrodog> Gotcha.
[08:36] <astrodog> Lemme know when it'd be useful, and I'll bang one out.
[08:37] <oh7lzb> kqueue would be cool, but will only be really necessary with hundreds or thousands of clients. With epoll on Linux I've been benchmarking aprsc with 30k and 40k users on a single server while the whole network only has 6000-7000 clients total with ~100 servers.
[08:38] <astrodog> I think the biggest thing kqueue could do is with some ULE sysctl tweaking, you could relay a bit faster. Not sure how much the few ms or so is worth, though.
[08:38] <astrodog> (That would, actually, give you an interesting way to track things... the finegrained time difference between stations)
[08:39] <oh7lzb> astrodog: http://fifth.aprs.net:14501/ - here is one aprsc server's status screen, you can click on the blue things to display graphs of them.
[08:40] <oh7lzb> Actually aprsc buffers data a little bit internally, quite intentionally, in the 0...30 ms range per packet, to reduce CPU load and coalesce writes (multiple packets will go in the same write and outgoing TCP packet)
[08:41] <oh7lzb> or 0...50 ms, I don't remember.
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[08:42] <oh7lzb> We're chatting about this stuff on #aprs of ircnet, in case you're interested. A bit off-topic here, sorry about that.
[08:42] <astrodog> Huh. The battery voltage is recovering nicely.
[08:42] <astrodog> Maybe the GPS reciever died?
[08:42] <costyn> oh7lzb: not much else going on, don't worry about it, most of us find it interesting
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[08:46] <astrodog> "@Stratofox_Team 109,373' is an error code for micro-controller reset, and the subsequent no GPS lock."
[08:46] <astrodog> Huh. Why'd they pick an alt that's actually in the flight envelope? Heh.
[08:50] <fsphil> *facepalm*
[08:50] <costyn> heh
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[08:53] <g0hww> is k6rpt-12 really heading for antarctica or is that a glitch?
[08:54] <Darkside> glitch
[08:54] <g0hww> ok
[08:54] <costyn> would've been quite a feat
[08:54] <g0hww> was a bit of a shock seeing that
[08:54] <daveake> Surprised it didn't go to 0,0
[08:55] <lz1dev> location changed a bit
[08:55] <costyn> how come they didn't have this problem last time? i assume they used the same aprs tracker?
[08:56] <astrodog> dave: It seems to have gone to a location related to its old one.
[08:56] <astrodog> Hey, it's back.
[08:56] <lz1dev> K6RPT-12>APBL10,WIDE2-1,qAR,ED7ZAE:!3427.73N/00418.98WO068/055/A=118394V200
[08:56] <astrodog> 2012-12-05 08:52:30 UTC: K6RPT-12>APBL10,WIDE2-1,qAR,ED7ZAE:!3450.46N/00409.83WO095/047/A=000147V200 CNSP-18 CNSP-Inc.com<0xff>700 [Location changes too fast (>500 km/h)]
[08:56] <astrodog> 2012-12-05 08:54:30 UTC: K6RPT-12>APBL10,WIDE2-1,qAR,ED7ZAE:!3427.73N/00418.98WO068/055/A=118394V200 CNSP-18 CNSP-Inc.com<0xff>700 [Location changes too fast (>500 km/h)]
[08:57] <oh7lzb> It'll catch up on the third packet
[08:57] <astrodog> We're at 3 misses, so far.
[08:57] <astrodog> Er, sorry. I'm retarded. :P
[08:57] <oh7lzb> Or something.
[08:58] <astrodog> oh: Now it's having that other telemetry problem, though. That's fun.
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[08:59] <astrodog> Also fun to know... if you put an APRS radio on a jet... it'll be invisible to aprs.fi's maps!
[08:59] <astrodog> :P
[08:59] <oh7lzb> Maybe they have a hardware issue, the GPS bugs in the cold, causing the firmware bugs to become visible too. Or something.
[08:59] <oh7lzb> astrodog: Not true. It works fine! There are a couple of commercial airline pilots using APRS tracker at times :)
[08:59] <astrodog> oh: It looks like they're overflowing something to me.
[09:00] <oh7lzb> The error message is misleading - the speed limit is not a fixed 500 km/h limit any more.
[09:00] <astrodog> Ah.
[09:01] <KT5TK> GPS back
[09:01] <oh7lzb> It adjusts - if you keep up a high speed, it'll accept that. The limit kicks in if you suddenly speed up (like, your car jumps 800 km/h from Helsinki to Siberia due to a bad GPS fix).
[09:01] <costyn> oh7lzb: clever
[09:01] <oh7lzb> Still wobbly it seems. :)
[09:02] <oh7lzb> costyn: It adjusts a little bit too slow for the swedish guy's 747 freighter, but it only misses a few packets after take-off. :)
[09:02] <costyn> hehe
[09:02] <costyn> oh7lzb: are the blue and green circles the same as on spacenear.us?
[09:02] <oh7lzb> I should remove the 500 km/h text from the error message.
[09:02] <astrodog> 118kft... still going up, too.
[09:02] <oh7lzb> costyn: Yes, they are, copied with pride.
[09:03] <costyn> so it should be in range of ground stations for a while
[09:03] <astrodog> oh7lzb, I don't suppose there's an easy way to export the lat/long/speed/alt fixes more than a few times a day? Heh.
[09:04] <oh7lzb> astrodog: Sorry, no. Maybe the limit is a bit too ... hm, strict. But I don't want people to use that as an API. Getting the real stuff from the APRS-IS is easy enough with the existing parsers and bits anyway.
[09:05] <oh7lzb> And there is an API to get the most recent position, if you really want to poll with HTTP.
[09:06] <astrodog> May have to get that set up... running this stuff through PostgreSQL/PostGIS is interesting.
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[09:07] <astrodog> Huh. Dropped again?
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[09:08] <astrodog> Says 75k now.
[09:08] <Majed> hi all
[09:08] <astrodog> 101 before that.
[09:08] <astrodog> Popped?
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[09:09] <Majed> does anyone have experience in using GoPro Hero 2 on flights?
[09:09] <astrodog> 11 mph? Heh.
[09:09] <nayr> yeah slowed down alot
[09:10] <Darkside> 44m alt?
[09:10] <Darkside> lol
[09:10] <Majed> costyn?
[09:10] <nayr> not quite that much
[09:10] <astrodog> Dark: That's its usual GPS screwyness.
[09:10] <nayr> gps still obviously glitchin out
[09:10] <Darkside> Majed: we use HD Hero 2s
[09:10] <astrodog> 55k alt
[09:10] <oh7lzb> I did an unusual one-time hack and disabled the speed check completely for K6RPT-12 now.
[09:10] <astrodog> It's done.
[09:11] <Darkside> oh7lzb: wait, you're the aprs.fi guy?
[09:11] <nayr> its coming down
[09:11] <Darkside> add support for DF reports! :D
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[09:11] <Majed> hi Darkside.. i am wondering how to install the Gopro in payload such that to avoid fogging
[09:11] Action: Darkside wants to be able to DF stuff
[09:11] <Darkside> Majed: don't use the waterproof cover
[09:11] <Darkside> the gopro needs to be open to the elements
[09:11] <oh7lzb> Wasn't the DF spec somehow retarded?
[09:11] <Majed> what elemens?
[09:11] <Darkside> oh7lzb: nah, its just somethign in the comments
[09:12] <costyn> Majed: hi, sorry bit busy at the moment
[09:12] <Majed> no probs costyn
[09:12] <Darkside> oh7lzb: 3451.13S/13952.62E\\000/000/270/999
[09:12] <Darkside> well, no double backslash there
[09:12] <astrodog> When will Spain lose signal?
[09:12] <Darkside> thats from pythonc ode
[09:12] <Majed> Darkside: what exposed to what elements?
[09:12] <nayr> 46k
[09:12] <Darkside> Majed: as in you can't have the gopro in a sealed case
[09:12] <nayr> wont be long id think
[09:13] <nayr> it lost 10k feet in 2mins
[09:13] <Majed> Darkside: why ios that?
[09:13] <Darkside> oh7lzb: basically, if the symbol is a DF station, attempt to interpret the fields after the speed and tracel bearing as a DF direction bearing and quality indicator
[09:13] <Darkside> its in the APRS 1.0.1 spec
[09:13] <Darkside> Majed: else it fogs
[09:14] <Darkside> oh7lzb: http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=VK5QI-10
[09:14] <Darkside> that was me testing
[09:14] <Majed> Darkside: the weather in my country is dry i.e humidity is almost nil
[09:14] <Darkside> Majed: doesnt matter
[09:14] <Darkside> it could still fog
[09:15] <Darkside> if you have a skeleton case for the gopro, use that
[09:15] <Majed> Darkside: not using the waterproof cover would guarantee no fogging?
[09:15] <Darkside> pretty much
[09:15] <Darkside> the skeleton case works well for this
[09:15] <Majed> Darkside: what is a skeleton case?
[09:15] <astrodog> Looks like we've lost K6RPT-12 for good. Heh.
[09:15] <astrodog> Someone wanna go get it? :P
[09:16] <nayr> i'll hop in my vw bus
[09:16] <nayr> i'll be there in about 6 years
[09:16] <costyn> I know a guy in Beni Mellal, but that's quite a ways away
[09:16] <costyn> and someone else in Marrakesh, but that's even further :)
[09:16] <astrodog> costyn: Hell, we could all pitch in for gas. :P
[09:17] <nayr> it'd be aweosme if someone recovers and returns it
[09:17] <Majed> Darkside: what is a skeleton case?
[09:17] <Darkside> Majed: its one of the gopro case types
[09:18] <costyn> astrodog: hehe... seeing as we "lost" it at quite an altitude, finding it is going to be impossible; the area it might've landed is quite big
[09:18] <Darkside> http://gopro.com/camera-accessories/hd-skeleton-housing/
[09:18] <Majed> Darkside: is it the standard none-waterproof case?
[09:18] <Darkside> i think so
[09:18] <astrodog> cost: If they move fast, it might still be transmitting.
[09:18] <astrodog> *grin*
[09:18] <Darkside> Majed: if the case has holes in the side, then thats it
[09:18] <Majed> why use it
[09:18] <Darkside> so it doesn't fog!
[09:18] <astrodog> It'll fog otherwis...
[09:18] <nayr> 25k feet
[09:18] <astrodog> Hey!
[09:18] <Majed> ok
[09:18] <astrodog> There it is.
[09:18] <Majed> i see
[09:18] <costyn> Darkside: :D
[09:18] <costyn> def going down
[09:19] <costyn> some bedouin is going to find it and be all like WTF
[09:19] <astrodog> Maybe 1 more update?
[09:19] <nayr> looks like farmland
[09:19] <nayr> too bad no africa stations nearby
[09:20] <nayr> wonder how long it'll transmit on ground
[09:20] <astrodog> nayr: If you farm on the moon, anyway.
[09:20] <astrodog> :P
[09:20] <Majed> Darkside: i have read somewhere that filling the the waterproof case with helium when closing it prevents fogging as helium is not humid
[09:20] <costyn> Majed: but there's no point in using the waterproof case
[09:20] <costyn> Majed: no added value
[09:20] <nayr> 19k
[09:20] <astrodog> It passed over an oil field.
[09:21] <Majed> costyn: i thought the waterproof case protects the camera from harsh enviornmet up there
[09:21] <costyn> Majed: it's just very dry and very cold, the case isn't going to help against the cold
[09:21] <nayr> too bad it dont detect going down and start picking up transmissions
[09:21] <nayr> every 30s or so
[09:21] <Majed> as long as it is tested by you guys, i'll not use the case
[09:21] <KT5TK> trees!
[09:22] <Darkside> Majed: we never fly the waterproof case
[09:22] <Darkside> and its worked every time
[09:22] <costyn> Majed: as long as you don't use the GoPro battery, but yuou already know right?
[09:22] <astrodog> 13k
[09:22] <nayr> yep
[09:22] <nayr> its falling pretty rapidly
[09:23] <astrodog> Go EA7FQB for keeping it.
[09:23] <nayr> 20mins
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[09:23] <nayr> hell yeah
[09:23] <astrodog> Huh. How fast is it falling, exactly?
[09:23] <Majed> Costyn: yes... by the way, could you drop me the link to that external 6xAA battery external charger
[09:23] <nayr> 3-4k feet every 2 mins
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[09:23] <astrodog> nayr: That'll hurt if it lands on some poor sap.
[09:24] <nayr> over a town now
[09:24] <Majed> Darkside: so i should just fit the GoPro with out any casing in the payload and that is it right?
[09:24] <Darkside> Majed: that works fine
[09:24] <costyn> Majed: found it in the irc logs: http://www.soundbasemegastore.com/field-portable-recorders/28672-tascam-bp6aa-external-battery-box-6xaa-for-any-usb-device.html
[09:24] <nayr> there's at least people nearby
[09:24] <costyn> Majed: but that's just an example, one with 4 AAs might work too
[09:24] <nayr> mebe it'll land on a highway :)
[09:24] <costyn> nayr: highway???
[09:24] <Majed> costyn: do i need an adapter too?
[09:25] <costyn> Majed: I don't know
[09:25] <nayr> dirt road
[09:25] <astrodog> It looks like, at best, it'll hit an orchard.
[09:25] <astrodog> :P
[09:25] <costyn> Majed: you need to try to do some research and figure stuff out. see what connectors are where and what matches up
[09:25] <Majed> costyn: am not sure... not an expert in electronics
[09:26] <Majed> costyn: ok
[09:26] <costyn> Majed: well, you need to become one if you want to do this
[09:26] <nayr> last packet was missed, dunno how far we can expect to follow it
[09:26] <costyn> not an expert, but at least try to understand some of the stuff
[09:26] <Majed> costyn: riger that
[09:26] <Majed> costyn: roger that
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[09:26] <nayr> he's beyond line of sight
[09:26] <astrodog> nayr: If we get another one... something is wrong.
[09:26] <costyn> astrodog: heheh yea
[09:26] <nayr> yeah its proabibly hitting ground very soon
[09:27] <astrodog> nayr: Remember, it's under a chute
[09:27] <astrodog> So its decent should slow as it goes.
[09:27] <nayr> ah
[09:28] <astrodog> If it weren't, it'd have hit the ground by now.
[09:28] <astrodog> *grin*
[09:28] <costyn> oh well, that's it I guess
[09:28] <nayr> proabibly has
[09:28] <astrodog> Seems to be.
[09:28] <oh7lzb> Lunch time. That was a fun ride.
[09:28] <nayr> glad to hear from it again
[09:29] <nayr> good float
[09:29] <astrodog> At least it checked in before it died.
[09:29] <astrodog> :P
[09:29] <costyn> wonder if the owners were awake to see it go down
[09:29] <astrodog> cost: Judging from their twitter feed... no.
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[09:29] <nayr> yeah and landed on dry ground to boot
[09:29] <costyn> astrodog: ah
[09:30] <astrodog> https://twitter.com/K6RPT
[09:30] <astrodog> Dropped an hour ago.
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[09:31] <astrodog> On the ground in the next few minutes. Looks like there's at least some chance someone will stumble across it.
[09:31] <costyn> prety impressive flight for a Hwoyee
[09:31] <costyn> astrodog: sure, but they're not likely to speak English (if there's any text on the outside)
[09:32] <astrodog> I doubt they thought to add arabic and friends.
[09:32] <costyn> unlikely
[09:32] <astrodog> Africa was... not the target, AFAIK.
[09:32] <astrodog> :P
[09:32] <astrodog> Though, French.
[09:32] <costyn> that would've been useful
[09:32] <astrodog> Might mean someone can muddle through it.
[09:33] <costyn> sure, quite a lot of Moroccans speak French
[09:33] <costyn> although the ones in the boonies probably not
[09:33] <astrodog> Guess we'll know in a few days.
[09:34] <astrodog> With that, I'm off to sleep.
[09:34] <costyn> astrodog: cya
[09:34] <astrodog> It's 3:30 AM here. :P
[09:34] <costyn> ouch
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[10:20] <x-f> http://twitter.com/Stratofox_Team/status/275781200143069186
[10:21] <x-f> they knew about that "error code" for a year and didn't bother to fix it..?
[10:23] <oh7lzb> Not the best tracker.
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[10:25] <oh7lzb> Darkside: I might look into the DF stuff later when I finish my pseudo-doppler DF receiver project. It's half done. :)
[10:25] <mfa298> sounds like they missed the step after: test, find bug,...
[10:27] <mfa298> i suppose technically they did: test, find bug, ???, profit
[10:28] <oh7lzb> Darkside: Though, I probably don't want to announce on APRS when I'm DFing something like a jamming transmitter.
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[10:30] <Darkside> oh7lzb: heh
[10:30] <Darkside> it'd just be nice if it was implemented on there
[10:31] <oh7lzb> Yeah. Like a lot of other things. :)
[10:31] <Darkside> it can't be *that* hard, right? :P
[10:31] <Darkside> while you're at it, give me ponies
[10:33] <oh7lzb> https://twitter.com/K6RPT/status/276212615913566208 - that one gives me a little itch to do a longpoll server and take it down to < 1 second ;)
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[10:34] <Darkside> heh
[10:34] <Darkside> clientside JS to monitor APRS-Is?
[10:34] <oh7lzb> I have already done a 1st-person near-real-time 3D view from a moving vehicle (well, plane, mostly) using the Google Earth plugin. It's rather cool. Too bad APRS data comes in too rarely to make it animate smoothly.
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[10:35] <Darkside> oh7lzb: hehe
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[10:36] <oh7lzb> Not APRS-IS directly, but aprs.fi's parsed data feed. I have a bunch of data sources implemented already (AIS, ADS-B, Tetra, aprs.fi's own internal API).
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[10:36] <Darkside> anyway, teh DF stuff was just some fun i was playing with
[10:36] <oh7lzb> I'd just push the parsed data as JSON strings to a longpoll server cluster which the JS would hang on to with HTTP.
[10:36] <Darkside> our in-car DF systems communicate over a in-car network, and pass APRS compatible packets via USB
[10:36] <Darkside> UDP*
[10:37] <Darkside> with the idea that lateron we could send those packets out via APRS, and have car-to-car bearing updates
[10:37] <lz1dev> oh7lzb: just use the aprs data as key frames and animated between them
[10:37] <oh7lzb> The HTTP response takes 0 to 30 seconds and comes back immediately if a new position comes in. Or after 30 seconds it says "no data, ask again"
[10:37] <Darkside> so multiple cars can work together to home in on a target
[10:37] <oh7lzb> lz1dev: That's what it does, but APRS packets do not come in often enough to animate nicely.
[10:38] <oh7lzb> With ADS-B it feels like flying. I'm going to put it in X-Plane soon, already compiled a working sample plugin for it. :)
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[10:56] <jarod> http://x264.nl/dump/planeplotter.jpg with my dvb-t antenna
[10:56] <jarod> :O
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[11:01] <costyn> jarod: nice, waar in NL zit je?
[11:01] <jarod> Amsterdam
[11:01] <costyn> jarod: I work there, live in the Hague
[11:02] Action: SpeedEvil wishes there were something better than plane
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> aerodynamic simuilatioon wise.
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[11:03] <lz1dev> alien spacecraft ?
[11:06] <SpeedEvil> no, it treats a plane as a summation of the forces on isolated aerofoils
[11:06] <SpeedEvil> plus hacks
[11:07] <SpeedEvil> this is the only easily tractable way to do it, that doesn't need fea, but is quite inaccurate in some cases
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> and woo!
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> transatlantic!
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[11:21] <hibby> SpeedEvil: openfoam for cfd funtiemz?
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[11:22] <hibby> i know that some of my aero/mech eng colleagues in t'university were quite fond of it.
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[11:34] <d0wnl0rd> just had a look at k6rpt-12: a really impressive achievement!
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[12:04] <Upu> was that a false altitude reading or was K6RPT going down ?
[12:06] <mattbrejza> id say down
[12:07] <Upu> not a bad innings
[12:07] <mattbrejza> very similar to the other one too
[12:07] <Upu> they really need to get it to switch frequencies
[12:08] <mattbrejza> well as they didnt make that part of hte electronics they need to moan at the bloke who does the tracker
[12:08] <mattbrejza> and ofr him to fix that bug
[12:08] <Upu> commercial tracker
[12:08] <Darkside> bigredbee
[12:08] <Upu> should do it themselves really
[12:08] <Upu> buggy and doesn't lend itself to this use
[12:08] <mattbrejza> commerical tracker in the same way your breakout boards are a commerical gps solution?
[12:09] <mattbrejza> (as in a bloke in a shed)
[12:09] <Upu> lol
[12:09] <Darkside> no, this is a commercial aprs tracker
[12:09] <Darkside> well
[12:09] <Darkside> yes :P
[12:09] <Upu> its a commercial one in a box
[12:09] <Upu> but hey fair point
[12:09] <Upu> if it comes in a box = commercial :)
[12:09] <mattbrejza> oh thats where the divide sits
[12:09] <Upu> indeed
[12:09] <Upu> shouldn't be too hard to sort out though
[12:10] <Upu> their TX is frequency agile
[12:10] <costyn> commercial = turn it on, it works?
[12:10] <Upu> ok lets say prebuilt tracker
[12:10] <costyn> Upu: RFM frequency agile too right?
[12:10] <Upu> yes but not on 2 meters costyn
[12:10] <costyn> ah
[12:11] <Upu> so whats with the odd bugs anyway did we work out whats happening ?
[12:12] <costyn> microcontroller rebooted, GPS didn't have a lock for a while; so then it showed it was above the South Atlantic
[12:12] <costyn> GPS recoverd, but soon after there was burst unfortunately
[12:13] <mattbrejza> and also the general gps bug that put the point 10-50km out
[12:13] <mattbrejza> which was probably a parsing/conversion error
[12:13] <costyn> and it is funny how it seems the distance it covered is almost the same as last time.
[12:13] <Upu> sorry mattbrejza I honestly thought BigRed were a commercial enterprise but yes point noted :
[12:13] <Upu> http://www.bigredbee.com/images/IMG_2133-1.JPG
[12:14] <costyn> Upu: seriously, we should find someone in CA to launch your APRS tracker and do our own transatlantic flight :)
[12:14] <mattbrejza> i was judging man in shed based on website and logo design
[12:14] <costyn> mattbrejza: yea "commercial" is a term used loosely here
[12:14] <Upu> well I've offered to supply one to CNSP on 3 occasions now they've yet to respond to my mails or tweets
[12:14] <costyn> Upu: well that just means we need to find someone else :)
[12:14] <fsphil> I will bravely volunteer to accept travel to Cali
[12:14] <Upu> yep
[12:14] <Upu> lol
[12:15] <costyn> Upu: maybe you need to try twitter, they seem to respond to those
[12:15] <Upu> no I tried
[12:15] <Upu> I've asked questions about the payload
[12:15] <costyn> oh
[12:15] <Upu> what with their website advertising openess and stuff
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[12:15] <Upu> and never had a response
[12:16] <costyn> strange
[12:16] <Upu> ANyway so what I'm going to do is send them a balloon transatlantic and cut it away over Rons house with a note saying "Seriously , call me"
[12:16] <costyn> don't understand why they wouldn't jump at the opportunity to get their hands on a better tracker
[12:16] <costyn> Upu: haha
[12:16] <Upu> no idea
[12:16] <gonzo___> hab half-brick
[12:16] <Upu> They could get an Iridium too
[12:16] <mattbrejza> and hf
[12:16] <costyn> Darkside: n
[12:16] <costyn> erm
[12:17] <Upu> no response
[12:17] <costyn> whatever happened to Dan's project?
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[12:17] <Upu> its on going
[12:17] <costyn> (can't remember the name)
[12:17] <Upu> that will stay aloft for months
[12:17] <costyn> woa
[12:17] <Upu> so Iridium and solar
[12:17] <costyn> what kind of balloon?
[12:18] <Upu> the trick is keeping the batteries above 0'C so they can be charged
[12:18] <costyn> not trivial
[12:18] <Upu> no
[12:18] <Upu> but its doable
[12:19] <Upu> but yeah I'd dearly love to get CNSP on here
[12:20] <Upu> they have alot to share and vice versa
[12:21] <costyn> they do have a knack for getting their balloons to float nicely
[12:21] <Upu> 1600g Hwoyee 1-2m/s ascent
[12:22] <costyn> what other knowledge do they have we dont?
[12:22] <Upu> they have an awesome filler system
[12:22] <Upu> which I've asked for details on
[12:23] <Upu> "To provide leadership for the ballooning community via presentations, and internet sharing of new information." from their site
[12:23] <Upu> never got a response
[12:23] <Upu> http://www.californianearspaceproject.com/images/CNSP-17/05L.jpg
[12:23] <costyn> heh... perhaps only to fellow 'Muricans
[12:23] <Upu> sharing of new information*
[12:23] <Upu> *as long as you aren't one of those pesky foreign types
[12:23] <costyn> yea
[12:24] <costyn> how do they measure necklift with that rig?
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[12:24] <Upu> its on a balance or something
[12:24] <Upu> hence why I'd like details
[12:24] <costyn> aah yea
[12:24] <Upu> http://www.californianearspaceproject.com/images/CNSP-17/06L.jpg
[12:24] <Upu> see the scale ?
[12:25] <costyn> interseting
[12:25] <costyn> some sort of sliding pvc pipes I guess
[12:26] <costyn> or a section that harmonica's out as the balloon gains lift
[12:26] <costyn> shouldn't be too hard to reverse engineer?
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[12:26] <Upu> nope probably not
[12:27] <Upu> anyway watch this space I know James is planning on a floater before the year is out
[12:27] <costyn> jcoxon?
[12:27] <Upu> yep
[12:28] <oh7lzb> Cool.
[12:28] <Upu> might be a pico I don't know
[12:28] <Upu> normally does one on Christmas Eve jcoxon ?
[12:31] <number10> I may launch my one over christmas - but maybe a simker
[12:31] <number10> sinker
[12:33] <fsphil> been over a year since my last launch
[12:33] <fsphil> must bug the caa again
[12:34] <fsphil> can do a new years launch
[12:34] <Upu> just give him a fixed date
[12:34] <fsphil> I'm gonna give him a single weekend
[12:34] <fsphil> and launch regardless
[12:34] <fsphil> make the payload disposable
[12:34] <fsphil> actually I'll send that in right now before I forget
[12:35] <costyn> fsphil: good luck
[12:35] <fsphil> thanks :)
[12:35] <fsphil> wonder if I can just launch it from home
[12:35] <fsphil> yeaaaa
[12:36] <fsphil> there's a field out the back
[12:36] <costyn> fsphil: you just noticed it?
[12:36] <fsphil> it's a bit overgrown costyn
[12:36] <fsphil> and the local kids are annoying
[12:36] <fsphil> but they're less likely to be out in the cold
[12:36] <costyn> overgrown? http://www.flickr.com/photos/incrediblehow/5980798516/lightbox/
[12:37] <fsphil> about half that
[12:37] <costyn> heh
[12:38] <fsphil> the 29th should be good
[12:42] <fsphil> do you guys send it direct to DM or use the aops address?
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[12:50] <fsphil> sent
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[13:24] <cuddykid> just saw that the CNSP launch made it over - fantastic
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[13:32] <x-f> isn't natrium42 from the West coast of US?
[13:32] <x-f> or arko, or both
[13:32] <x-f> KT5TK sure is
[13:33] <x-f> here's the video of K6RTP-12 filling - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5QUGMAgkVg
[13:34] <x-f> it's half an hour, haven't watched it yet
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[13:37] <craag> You can see their filling/lift measuring kitin action at 17:14
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[13:39] <costyn> craag: 360p? almost seems asif they're trying to obfuscate it on purpose
[13:40] <costyn> although they seem to explain how it works during the video
[13:40] <craag> Maybe, you can see enough of the principle though.
[13:40] <craag> Oh ok, I must admit I haven't watched most of it, just skipped through until they started filling..
[13:41] <costyn> craag: starts at 3:48
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[13:42] <costyn> Upu: at 4:10 you can see how the rig works
[13:42] <costyn> (with the pivot/balance)
[13:42] <costyn> even simpler than I thought :)
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[13:45] <cuddykid> simple yet clever
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[13:50] <costyn> If I were a HAB recidivist I'd build it because it's so cool, but as it stands I wouldn't get enough use of out it.
[13:52] <x-f> why not? you could be the first one to land a balloon in Japan, for example :)
[13:53] <x-f> or send it to (the) Darkside
[13:54] <costyn> x-f: Before I can use APRS I have to get my amateur license
[13:54] <x-f> a minor an non-stopping issue
[13:54] <x-f> and*
[13:56] <x-f> i'm thinking about getting an amateur licence myself
[13:56] <x-f> but then i saw the topics thei cover in the exam, and my enthusiasm kind of.. died
[13:56] <x-f> they*
[13:57] <costyn> heh
[14:01] <costyn> x-f: just looked at the example exam. yea... not doing that
[14:01] <x-f> :)
[14:03] <x-f> i won't cancel this idea completely tho
[14:03] <x-f> it must me possible to do
[14:03] <x-f> there are radio amateurs among us!
[14:03] <gonzo___> it's not that bad
[14:04] <mfa298> most of the UK license stuff is easy.
[14:04] <costyn> x-f: sure, but there's bits in there I know nothinga bout.. like they show a non-trivial circuit and ask to identify the 2 transistors in there. if theyre NPN or PNP. no idea
[14:04] <mfa298> it's all multi guess
[14:05] <WillDuckworth> not sure if anyone else in the UK has noticed that it looks like we can use 458.5 to 459.5 MHz for General Use (including airborne) @ 100mW for Telemetry & Telecommand
[14:06] <x-f> mfa298, costyn, i read that you've passed the exam, if 60% answers are correct
[14:07] <costyn> x-f: heh
[14:07] <mfa298> its something like that.
[14:07] <mfa298> was a while ago I did it.
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[14:16] <mattbrejza> WillDuckworth: source?
[14:17] <ant_thomas> Hi, Not quite a high altitude question, but I came across the wiki/site and thought people here might have some suggestions. Looking to put up a tethered balloon camera of some sort. The tether is Cat5e ethernet cable which carries network and power to the camera system (Raspberry Pi + Webcam) this part already works great and is currently living outdoors as a timelapse webcam. What I would like is advice on how to float the
[14:18] <ant_thomas> Any recommendations on balloon types, how long it will be able to last before deflating etc
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[14:19] <cuddykid> ooo, interesting WillDuckworth
[14:19] <ant_thomas> If it's of no interest to anyone on here, then not to worry!
[14:19] <RocketBoy> depends on the balloon - if latex probbly about a day or so
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[14:19] <cuddykid> ant_thomas: how long is it staying up for?
[14:19] <RocketBoy> if a proper blloon for tethering - pvc cigar shape then a lot longer
[14:19] <Gadget-Mac> Afternoon all
[14:21] <ant_thomas> I've read things like "Hi Float" can push that towards a week
[14:22] <eroomde> if you have a budget, check out helikites
[14:22] <eroomde> they are solid as a rock even in storms
[14:22] <eroomde> whereas a latex weatherballoon will be having a tantrum and throwing itself about even in 5mph winds
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[14:32] <SpeedEvil> I recommend an envelope made from 1mm thick steel.
[14:32] <SpeedEvil> this does mean it needs to be 25m in diameter. but that's a small price to pay.
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[14:42] <GW8RAK> How's this for a clever use of a 555 timer http://555designs.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/555-design-contest-entry-direct.html
[14:43] <UpuWork> heh we got batc.tv up to 80% CPU usage on Saturday
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[14:46] <x-f> stress test -> passed
[14:46] <x-f> we had fun there on Saturday :)
[14:46] <UpuWork> 300 users
[14:47] <x-f> chatty El Reg folks, traffic watch, 5EEE number plate
[14:47] <UpuWork> 5EEE ?
[14:48] <x-f> there was one small white car with such a number plate
[14:48] <x-f> it got famous
[14:48] <UpuWork> lol
[14:48] <UpuWork> didn't see that
[14:48] <x-f> it was in front of you in the jam!
[14:48] <UpuWork> lol
[14:48] <griffonbot> Received email: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=A0=3A_Re=3A_=5BUKHAS=5D_K6RPT=2D12_Transatlantic_floater?="
[14:48] <UpuWork> I was looking out of the window for balloons :)
[14:49] <x-f> fair enough :)
[14:49] <x-f> but thanks for the coverage for both days, it was fun
[14:50] <UpuWork> nps
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[15:11] <WillDuckworth> for info, found details relating to that licence exempt stuff here: http://www.ukrcc.org/info.html
[15:11] <WillDuckworth> and
[15:11] <WillDuckworth> http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/information/licence-exempt-radio-use/licence-exempt-devices/ofw311
[15:12] <WillDuckworth> and somewhere else i can't find right now
[15:12] <WillDuckworth> but think on caa rather than ofcom
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[15:18] <WillDuckworth> and in here i think it was: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap658.pdf
[15:18] <gonzo___> take care with the interpretations of those guidelines. The RC frequencies are for ground based ctrl of models. TXing from the air is different
[15:19] <gonzo___> when they refer to air or general use, they are refering to the type of model that you are controling
[15:19] <Gadget-Mac> I think item 8 on the ofcom page confirms that from the model is limited to 10mW
[15:20] <WillDuckworth> ah - good spot
[15:21] <gonzo___> there are other freqs that can be used airborne, but mostly limited to 10mw (think 868meg allows 100mw, but with a 10% duty cycle)
[15:21] <WillDuckworth> yep - clocked that one
[15:22] <gonzo___> 434meg is still our best option. There may be quieter bands out there, but for availability of RX kit, 70cm wins
[15:22] <Gadget-Mac> Agreed.
[15:23] <gonzo___> 2.6GHz is alaowed too, but again 10mW. We are going to fly a pico with just a tv cam in a few weeks, just for the hell of it
[15:23] <gonzo___> 2.4GHz
[15:24] <Gadget-Mac> I did wonder about flying a Pi with SDR on a kite as an RX station.
[15:24] <WillDuckworth> think i've got 2.4GHz yagi somewhere
[15:25] <gonzo___> Be careful, most wlan yagi are a pile of poo
[15:27] <cuddykid> hiya WillDuckworth :) - any launches planned soon?
[15:29] <gonzo___> Gadget-Mac, what freq receiving?
[15:29] <Gadget-Mac> Well, anything that one of those USB dongles will do :)
[15:30] <Gadget-Mac> Biggest weight would be a battery / cat 5 cable
[15:30] <WillDuckworth> cuddykid - new baby has taken over the world..... still working on a rpi & pico stylee
[15:30] <WillDuckworth> you?
[15:31] <gonzo___> for HF some pleple fly a wire antenna on a kite and run the radio on the end of it, from the ground
[15:31] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth: ah :) - sounds good! Uni coursework/exams have taken over my HABing atm, but hoping to get a few launches done Feb time
[15:31] <Gadget-Mac> cuddykid: which uni ?
[15:32] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth: got a fair amount of interest in this: http://acudworth.co.uk/lab so hoping to launch that around feb - going to be a big (3-5kg) payload
[15:32] <cuddykid> Gadget-Mac: notts
[15:32] <Gadget-Mac> cuddykid: Cool.
[15:32] <griffonbot> Received email: Marco (projectBLAST) "[UKHAS] Re: Launch Announcement: University of Southampton Project
[15:32] <Gadget-Mac> Might need to get in touch with you.
[15:33] <cuddykid> ridiculous amounts of CS java coursework (almost finished though :D )
[15:33] <cuddykid> Gadget-Mac: no probs :)
[15:33] <Gadget-Mac> cuddykid: We're hoping to get a cubesat scale ground station @Leicester :)
[15:34] <cuddykid> oh nice!
[15:34] <Gadget-Mac> With a view to using it for HAB work as well :)
[15:35] <cuddykid> there's a big tall (18 stories) building - for electronic engineering on campus, would be ideal for a listening station for HAB
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[15:38] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Sea 3 - UKHAS 0"
[15:39] <Gadget-Mac> cuddykid: couple of big buildings at leicester as well which would be useful
[15:41] <WillDuckworth> I was at Leic Gadget-Mac - but sound like they've pulled their space chuff together recently
[15:41] <WillDuckworth> :)
[15:42] <cuddykid> Gadget-Mac: excellent
[15:42] <Gadget-Mac> WillDuckworth: Not sure I get what you mean
[15:43] <WillDuckworth> they didn't have as good a reputation when I was there- compared to now
[15:43] <Gadget-Mac> Really, when was that ?
[15:44] <WillDuckworth> 2001/02 - they were ok but have def improved :)
[15:44] <Gadget-Mac> Interesting, what dept ?
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[15:45] <Gadget-Mac> They've had an instrument in space every year since 1960.
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[15:48] <fsphil> nice, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20612140
[15:48] <Gadget-Mac> cuddykid: http://goo.gl/maps/nmZI9 Would love to get something on the middle building in this streetview
[15:50] <eroomde> The Commission, working closely with ESA, will carry out a detailed cost benefit and risk analysis of the different options, with a view to maximising synergies between the different actors including the GSA."
[15:50] <eroomde> These options would preserve the current essential features of ESA (i.e. optional programmes subscribed by Member States) while giving ESA key EU features  such as qualified majority decision-making or accountability vis-à-vis the European Parliament.
[15:51] <eroomde> people who think that is both acceptable thought and acceptable english are the reason i left esa
[15:52] <fsphil> I stopped reading at synergies
[15:52] <russss> hah
[15:53] <cuddykid> Gadget-Mac: looks v like the building on notts campus - would be a good location
[15:53] <eroomde> seriously how can there exist people that think more european parliament is a good thing
[15:53] <eroomde> there's never been a larger concentration of oxygen-stealing worthless c*ntiness in the hisotry of civilisation
[15:53] <eroomde> in my humble opinion
[15:58] <WillDuckworth> always humble ed
[15:59] <eroomde> i try
[16:02] <Laurenceb> eroomde is Nigel Farage ?
[16:02] <Laurenceb> i was going to say some eu funded stuff is worthwhile, like iter
[16:03] <Laurenceb> but then again maybe even that is a massive waste of money
[16:04] <Laurenceb> http://f4e.europa.eu/Downloads/Gallery/ITER-site-2012/June_1_light-290620121200-Large.jpg
[16:04] <Laurenceb> looks somewhat optimistic
[16:05] <eroomde> it's fine to take their money
[16:05] <eroomde> but when the people in the middle think they ought to have more power, that's when you shoot them
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[16:13] <nigelvh> Sounding a lot more like american government...
[16:17] <eroomde> i rather do don't
[16:17] <eroomde> don't I*
[16:17] <eroomde> i've just seen the amount of money that gets wasted first hand
[16:17] <eroomde> it's very upsetting
[16:17] <nigelvh> I suppose a redeeming quality of american government is that they spend too much time arguing to get much bad done.
[16:18] <nigelvh> Though yes, the money wasting is unfortunate.
[16:22] <fsphil> the american government seems to be a bit mental to me, as an outside observer
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[16:23] <nigelvh> As an american citizen I share that sentiment.
[16:23] <fsphil> perhaps not mental, but unsustainable
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[16:23] <nigelvh> I just worry what it's going to finally come to for this crap to break down.
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[16:27] <nigelvh> On a happier note, I've got my next revision of my transmitter pretty close to complete.
[16:27] <nigelvh> https://k7nvh.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Iris_V1_1_BRD.png
[16:28] <eroomde> nice work!
[16:28] <eroomde> looks v pretty
[16:28] <nigelvh> Thanks, hopefully the changes I've made end up working well.
[16:29] <nigelvh> There's still a little bit to do. I want to adjust some of the trace sizes in the RF sections, probably add a few more gnd vias, and probably a few labels.
[16:30] <nigelvh> Anyway, in this orientation it's 1.6" tall by 2.25" wide.
[16:30] <nigelvh> (Not including the SMA)
[16:32] <nigelvh> I spent a good bit of time re-arranging pins and parts to ease routing. I think it came out a lot better than the first version: https://k7nvh.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Iris_BRD_NoPour.png
[16:32] <fsphil> I love the hardware you're all making
[16:32] <nigelvh> (Pours not shown)
[16:32] <fsphil> it's really quite professional
[16:32] <nigelvh> Thanks!
[16:33] <eroomde> yeah rearranging the pins makes a big difference
[16:33] <eroomde> i've been doing the same for something i'm working on right now
[16:33] <eroomde> just to make the fanout from the atmega a bit easier
[16:33] <eroomde> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/58776840/ignitertron.png
[16:33] <eroomde> she's not finished yet
[16:34] <nigelvh> Yeah, I think they could have made the pinout of the atmega easier. Like not putting +V and GND connections in the middle of IO banks.
[16:34] <eroomde> oh god totally
[16:34] <eroomde> forcing you to put decoupling caps in really awkward places
[16:34] <nigelvh> What's the big block at the top?
[16:35] <eroomde> dc dc converter
[16:35] <nigelvh> Ah, one of them.
[16:35] <eroomde> puts at isolated 3.3V out at quite a few amps
[16:35] <eroomde> it's for a glow plug
[16:35] <nigelvh> Ah
[16:35] <eroomde> and it needs to be isolated from the rest of the rocket so that the control system doesn't use the rocket as a resturn path
[16:35] <nigelvh> Makes sense.
[16:35] <eroomde> so it's one of those big silver cans
[16:36] <eroomde> http://au.element14.com/productimages/farnell/standard/1893673-40.jpg
[16:36] <eroomde> this thing
[16:36] <nigelvh> I don't think I have a photo presently, but it reminds me of my rocket ground launch thingy.
[16:37] <nigelvh> It's just a pad box with a few relays to ignite motors
[16:37] <eroomde> yeah
[16:37] <nigelvh> Made it for the university class I volunteer with.
[16:37] <eroomde> this is to sequence the igniter fro the biprop engines
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[16:37] <eroomde> we have a standard igniter, glow plug and gaseous feed of o2 and h2
[16:37] <eroomde> which fires a hot jet into the chamber
[16:37] <eroomde> but sometimes the glowplugs fail
[16:37] <Gadget-Mac> eroomde, nigelvh Nice PCB's buys
[16:38] <Gadget-Mac> guys even
[16:38] <eroomde> so this board will chech the current through the glow plug to ensure it's healthy before sequencing the o2 and h2 valves
[16:38] <nigelvh> Yeah, the only fancy part of mine was just having it be wireless, so one box sat at the pad, and one box at GC.
[16:38] <eroomde> then it has a thermocouple interface circuit to detect the hot gas jet is on
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> NP: ludicrois - got glows.
[16:38] <eroomde> then it provides an isolated 24V 'go to go!' signal back to the rest of the engine control sequencer, which will then fire up the main propellent valves and so on
[16:39] <nigelvh> Fancy
[16:39] <eroomde> well, we've needlessly dumped a few kg of expensive propellent over the last few months
[16:39] <eroomde> when the sequencer just does the timing but the glow plug has failed
[16:39] <nigelvh> That would cause a pause for thought.
[16:39] <eroomde> it introduces the main (5kg/s) flow into the chamber without a good igniter
[16:40] <eroomde> thus just dumping it unburned to the atmosphere
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> best case
[16:40] <eroomde> so this should kill the sequence before that happens hopefully
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> mm... expensive? I thought you were using lox/keep
[16:40] <eroomde> also this is the iron bird v1 of something i want to minturise and put in a flight igniter
[16:40] <eroomde> for a restartable biprop we're working on
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> or have I become confused
[16:41] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: nope, we're not using that
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> kero.
[16:41] <eroomde> we use all sorts
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> ah
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> peanut butter and red fuming nitric acid.
[16:41] <eroomde> right now we're testing combinations that could be synthesised on mars
[16:41] <eroomde> which has some slightly more exotic stuff
[16:41] <nigelvh> Ooooh
[16:41] <eroomde> but even things like n2o are like £300 a bottle
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> mars bars and RFNA then
[16:42] <eroomde> i will suggest that to the PI
[16:42] <eroomde> i suspect it will leave him R and F
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[16:43] <SpeedEvil> I guess mars has nitrogen, unlike the moon
[16:43] <nigelvh> BTW eroomde, looks like a couple of the vias near the ICSP header are larger than the others. A particular reason?
[16:46] <eroomde> yes
[16:46] <eroomde> i haven't gone round with the sizing tool yet to fix them up :)
[16:46] <eroomde> like i say, still work-in-prog :)
[16:47] <nigelvh> Ah
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[16:48] <eroomde> there's still a bit of a birds nest in places
[16:48] <WillDuckworth> what program is that eroomde?
[16:48] <eroomde> but she'll get there
[16:48] <eroomde> will send it off tomorrow
[16:48] <eroomde> eagle
[16:49] <nigelvh> Doesn't look too thick
[16:49] <nigelvh> I've had much nastier messes of wires...
[16:50] <Laurenceb> nigelvh: interesting board
[16:50] <Laurenceb> is that some ism band ic?
[16:50] <nigelvh> I assume you're looking at the first one I send and not the second?
[16:51] <Laurenceb> oh, discrete pll?
[16:51] <nigelvh> Yes, bottom center is the ADF7012
[16:51] <nigelvh> It's a PLL/modulator thingy
[16:51] <Laurenceb> then discrete transistor power amp?
[16:51] <nigelvh> I don't use its modulation functionality though
[16:51] <nigelvh> and yep, separate PA
[16:51] <Laurenceb> nice work, standard design?
[16:51] <nigelvh> I get about 250-300mW out
[16:52] <Laurenceb> eeek
[16:52] <Laurenceb> is that a stripline feedback i see?
[16:52] <nigelvh> What do you mean by standard design?
[16:52] <nigelvh> And yes, I shamelessly stole that stripline idea from KT5TK's PecanNut
[16:52] <Laurenceb> did you copy the design and BOM from some HAM stuff?
[16:53] <Laurenceb> ah - for power feedback?
[16:53] <nigelvh> Yes (to the power feedback)
[16:53] <nigelvh> The design was mostly just from datasheet example circuits, but I did a lot of collaborating with KT5TK
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[16:58] <nigelvh> I saw KT5TK's PecanNut and thought he had made some good part choices, so I used the same 3.3V regulator, and the same PLL with different component choices, and the RF sense stripline with a component change as well for increased sensitivity.
[16:58] <nigelvh> The boost converter is based on the example circuit in the datasheet. The matching for the PA is from the datasheet (with some artistic liberties)
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[16:59] <nigelvh> The atmega is an atmega and we've all used those.
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[17:04] Action: Laurenceb hasnt used atmega for 2 years
[17:04] <nigelvh> Well, even if it hasn't been recently, you made my point.
[17:05] <Laurenceb> :P
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[17:14] <RocketBoy> ha - never used one
[17:15] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[17:16] <nigelvh> Howdy Lunar
[17:16] <nigelvh> And well aren't you special RocketBoy
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[17:18] <RocketBoy> not that I noticed
[17:18] <nigelvh> Come on dude! I gave you a free pass there!
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[17:26] <arko> morning
[17:26] <arko> man looks like that balloon landed in morocco ay?
[17:26] <nigelvh> That is what it appears.
[17:26] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
[17:26] <arko> awesome
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[17:30] <DrLuke> lol
[17:31] <DrLuke> it would be most amazing if someone managed to actually retrieve it
[17:31] <nigelvh> That would be pretty awesome.
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[17:49] <costyn> CNSP twitter still hasn't updated
[17:50] <costyn> would think 9 hours would be enough
[17:50] <costyn> of "downtime" to recuperate; I'd be too anxious to be able to sleep much I'd think
[17:51] <costyn> ping UpuWork
[17:54] <Upu> hello
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[17:55] <costyn> Upu: did you see the video x-f posted of the CNSP launch?
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[17:55] <Upu> err no missed it
[17:55] <costyn> Upu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5QUGMAgkVg at 4:10 you can see how the filler system works
[17:56] <Upu> thanks
[17:56] <costyn> really very simple
[17:56] <costyn> shouldn't be more than an afternoon to knock that up
[17:57] <Upu> I'l check it out later
[17:58] <costyn> these get smaller all the time https://dx.com/p/fk-a8r-mini-latitude-longitude-gps-locator-tracker-monitor-850-900-1800-1900mhz-168496
[17:59] <costyn> (and cheaper)
[18:00] <mattbrejza> 'GPS Accuracy: 100~1000 meters'
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[18:22] <astrodog> That's... odd.
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[18:23] <astrodog> 1000 meters is a long way.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> you can save significant CPU power if you only decode integer chips
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> ~90m or so resolution
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[18:33] Action: SpeedEvil wishes he had a bufget.
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[18:34] <SpeedEvil> imagine a thousand quadcopters taking off, and forming a virtual Christmas tree 50m tall...
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[18:37] <lz1dev> or just one with a sceleton of chrismas tree
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[18:53] <johnboiles> do you guys ever get these transatlantic balloons back?
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> it depends
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> if some one returns then
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> m
[18:54] <johnboiles> right, how often does that happen?
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> or if someone in the area agrees to recover
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> this is the second ever
[18:55] <johnboiles> ah gotcha
[18:55] <mattbrejza> (first one got wet)
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> the first went into the middle of the med
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> no realistic hope of recovery
[18:55] <johnboiles> right
[18:55] <johnboiles> does the balloon ultimately pop from UV exposure?
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> yes
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[18:56] <SpeedEvil> that may take a week or more though
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[18:56] <johnboiles> any thoughts plans on how to do a round-the-world weather balloon?
[18:57] <Upu> mylar balloons can stay up for months
[18:57] <johnboiles> neat
[18:59] <johnboiles> so in this case, we believe the balloon popped over morocco? or enough helium leaked through the latex to make it start to come down?
[19:00] <Upu> probably burst
[19:00] <johnboiles> if it's the former i wonder if you could just double wrap and get a little longer life
[19:00] <Upu> nah doesn't work like that
[19:01] <johnboiles> maybe put sunscreen on it :)
[19:02] <Upu> you'd need alot :)
[19:02] <Upu> and it would probably feeze
[19:02] <Upu> freeze
[19:02] <Upu> and cause a premature failure
[19:04] <johnboiles> so how many of you were involved with K6RPT-12
[19:04] <johnboiles> you're in the bay right (i see you launched from san jose), i'd love to meet up with you guys
[19:06] <arko> i dont think anyone here was directly
[19:07] <johnboiles> gotcha
[19:07] <costyn> johnboiles: nope, nobody from CNSP here. we've been trying to contact them with little succes
[19:12] <x-f> costyn, i don't think that device from DX has a GPS at all, to me it looks like it uses GSM network to estimate its location
[19:13] <costyn> x-f: could be, it's too cheap to have a proper gps in it
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[19:30] <meatmanek> hi johnboiles
[19:32] <johnboiles> hi meatmanek
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[19:56] <hburger> hi!
[19:58] <hburger> not sure if you remember me, but a few months back I pestered you lot with balloon questions quite frequently, for my student-led near space balloon project for my school :)
[19:58] <hburger> just thought you'd like to see the photos we got back in May when we launched
[19:58] <number10> sure
[19:58] <hburger> http://www.flickr.com/photos/roborovskihamsters/sets/72157629758884970/
[19:59] <hburger> thanks for all the help you gave us to make our launch a success
[20:01] <number10> there are some nice pictures there - still looking - did you get a bit of condensation on some?
[20:01] <costyn> hburger: nice pics
[20:01] <costyn> hburger: nice when you've got that many hands you can just hold the ballon down
[20:01] <costyn> although there's more risk of damange
[20:01] <hburger> thanks costyn
[20:02] <arko> woah nice pcitures
[20:02] <fsphil> are those telescopes in the background?
[20:02] <hburger> yup, herstmonceux science observatory
[20:03] <fsphil> nice panorama
[20:03] <arko> hmm yet anothoer launch where the balloon it tied to the top of the parachute
[20:03] <hburger> haha, right costyn - i made them wear latex gloves to decrease chance of ripping at least a bit
[20:03] <arko> so weird
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[20:04] <hburger> i included the photos of the curtain ring and washer in the parachute for you guys to look at actually
[20:04] <costyn> hburger: nice colors, did you saturate them afterwards or was it a camera setting?
[20:04] <fsphil> nice easy landing too
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[20:04] <costyn> hburger: I was thinking more of someone accidentally scuffing their shoe into the latex :)
[20:04] <hburger> so luck with the landing :) a few miles away from Lille
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[20:04] <hburger> a little bit saturated, nothing too much though
[20:05] <costyn> hburger: how did you track? did you use radio trackign?
[20:05] <fsphil> bit of condensation after launch, nice that it clears
[20:05] <hburger> i made a diary/report of the project which I'm quite proud of :) http://www.scribd.com/doc/110643718/STRATOS-Project-Diary
[20:06] <hburger> i tracked with a cheap commercial gps tracker which texts you the coordinates (as shown in the report)
[20:06] <hburger> 1000 photos came out completely blurred - will rethink the UV filter if we do it again
[20:07] <number10> the name is very good
[20:07] <fsphil> yea the general advice is not to use any filters at all
[20:07] <fsphil> leaving the camera exposed seems the best way to avoid condensation
[20:07] <hburger> damn, should have seen that advice earlier, haha, i thought the advice *was* to use a filter
[20:07] <fsphil> nope, they almost always fog up :)
[20:08] <hburger> ah well, gives us some good points for the evaluation :)
[20:08] <fsphil> well, not always
[20:08] <Upu> I tried a heated UV filter
[20:08] <costyn> hburger: nice report, nice layout & all
[20:08] <Upu> failed
[20:08] <hburger> we showed our project at the regional STEMfest (science/technology/engineering/maths), against 40 other school's science projects
[20:08] <fsphil> yea the writeup is excellent
[20:09] <hburger> and we won two awards! one gets us through to the national finals in march
[20:09] <fsphil> did you know it was going to land in france before you launched?
[20:09] <Upu> comgratulations :)
[20:09] <fsphil> nice!
[20:09] <Upu> congratulations even
[20:09] <fsphil> we should totally do hab awards
[20:09] <hburger> so that'll be awesome. I'm doing a talk about the project to the local astronomical society tomorrow in fact, which is what reminded me to let you know how our launch went :)
[20:10] <Upu> give us a shout next time so we can help you track it in real time on the map and predict where it might land :)
[20:10] <hburger> yup, the predictor showed france, though the actual landing site was about 60km west
[20:11] <hburger> must have entered wrong descent speed calculation in the predictor - the equipment drifted far more than it predicted
[20:12] <hburger> upu, we would have, but on our limited budget (came to £300 altogether), we couldn't afford the radio tracking :(
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[20:12] <Upu> sure you could
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> hburger, may I make a big objection
[20:12] <Upu> firstly I'm sure you could borrow a radio
[20:12] <fsphil> something could have been arranged
[20:12] <Upu> or use an SDR
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> hburger, Herstmonceux is surely not an astrological observatory
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> but astronomical
[20:13] <Upu> speak to us next time :)
[20:13] <Upu> Lunar is the channels official spell checker
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> no, more like fact checker
[20:13] <Upu> I suspect thats a spelling error Lunar
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[20:14] <fsphil> nobody said astrological
[20:14] <fsphil> or do I need new eyes?
[20:14] <nigelvh> I didn't see astrological
[20:15] <Upu> its in the report
[20:15] <Upu> page 8
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:15] <nigelvh> Ah
[20:15] <fsphil> I do need new eyes
[20:15] <nigelvh> I was just looking here.
[20:15] <Upu> but small errors aside very impressed with the report
[20:15] <hburger> woops, I see it
[20:15] <fsphil> I'll let you proof read my next report Lunar_Lander
[20:15] <Upu> documented better than just about, well everyone
[20:16] <Upu> but hburger
[20:16] <Upu> don't use silica sachets, use them but remove before launch
[20:16] <fsphil> yea they slightly work in reverse during ascent
[20:16] <Upu> as the pressure decreases the boiling temperature of water reduces and all the mositure in them comes out
[20:16] <Upu> and consenses somewhere cold like lenses and stuff
[20:17] <Upu> handwarmers also
[20:17] <hburger> ooh okay, noted!
[20:17] <Upu> leave on the ground just insulated really well
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> yeah the report is cool
[20:17] <hburger> when i opened the payload i could feel the heat/condensation rise from it
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> but may I point out one funny thing?
[20:17] <Upu> fill the box with those "cheezy puffs" things they use to pack stuff with
[20:17] <meatmanek> johnboiles ^
[20:17] <fsphil> I just dumped a box full of those
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> the Social Media guy made the worst logo proposal according to the text
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:17] <hburger> the feeling of seeing those photos on the camera, realising our project was a success, was really great :)
[20:18] <Upu> yep good feeling isn't it :)
[20:18] <hburger> i can see why you guys do it regularly!
[20:18] <fsphil> haha
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> hburger, do you have resources for Flight 2?
[20:18] <fsphil> that feeling is 5 times better if the recovery was difficult...
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> you mean like
[20:18] <Lunar_Lander> trees?
[20:19] <meatmanek> hah, trees
[20:19] <hburger> i've left that school now actually, so I'm not sure if another flight's being planned (i'll be involved if it is)
[20:19] <meatmanek> trees would have been pleasant
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:19] <Upu> well if you do another one let us know we'll help you make a tracker
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> I am asking because if I read the report correctly the balloon had no sensors, right?
[20:19] <astrodog> Upu: Has anyone tried a CO2 bath?
[20:19] <nigelvh> I did a camera on my first payload and didn't bother with any filters or heat packets or silica and it worked great.
[20:20] <Upu> people flush the container with He astrodog
[20:20] <Upu> we've not tried it with H2
[20:20] <astrodog> Lunar: Temp/battery
[20:20] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:20] <fsphil> I'm not sure I'd risk flushing with H2
[20:20] <meatmanek> what's the idea of flushing the container with helium?
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[20:20] <meatmanek> this is the payload container?
[20:20] <Upu> sorry I was being sily
[20:20] <hburger> (apparently some of the younger yeargroups have been coming up with some scientific experiments for them to do with a flight - radiation detectors and stuff)
[20:20] <astrodog> Upu: Wondering if dry ice would do it. Send it up with the payload, and it'll displace air. :P
[20:20] <Upu> don't flush with H2
[20:20] <Upu> interesting idea astrodog
[20:21] <hburger> oh, and we had a data logger for altitude/temperature all ready
[20:21] <Upu> generally just expose the lense to "outside" and all is good
[20:21] <astrodog> Upu: Liquid CO2 would also work, if you wanted to do a sealed thing... but who wants to build for 800 PSI?
[20:21] <nigelvh> Yeah, I just cut a hole in the box and stuck the camera lens out, worked fine.
[20:21] <fsphil> dry ice, if it lasted to the landing, would make for a great effect
[20:21] <Upu> lol
[20:21] <fsphil> especially if the payload had flashing lights
[20:21] <astrodog> (Venting it would, actually, give you an incredibly well controlled temp.)
[20:21] <arko> Darkside: was it you who i was discussing parachute arrangement?
[20:21] <Upu> "they have arrived"
[20:22] <arko> or was it fsphil?
[20:22] <Lunar_Lander> btw don't the iron handwarmers use air after all?
[20:22] <fsphil> I think it was me
[20:22] <hburger> but the person who was responsible for the arduino data logger was silly and didn't bother putting it back together after he dismantled it after an aborted launch. needless to say i was angry >:(
[20:22] <meatmanek> Lunar_Lander yeah they generate heat by oxidizing
[20:22] <nigelvh> Lunar, yes.
[20:22] <navrac> yep i wasthinking that airactivatedhandwarmswhen theres no air
[20:22] <Lunar_Lander> hburger, yeah
[20:22] <astrodog> You can feed them H2O2, though.
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> what arduino did you have?
[20:23] <hburger> i'm not sure on the specs, sorry
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> ah was it a small or a big arduino?
[20:23] <hburger> small
[20:24] <astrodog> Upu: The liquid CO2 bath might be interesting... depending on how fast you lost the fluid.
[20:24] <astrodog> It'd give you completely predictable temps, until you ran out.
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> ok, probably a Uno then
[20:24] <hburger> but the washer idea for hanging the parachute on (in the report) worked well I think. have people done this before? I couldn't find how people usually attach the parachute to the rope, see, so we improvised
[20:24] <arko> fsphil i figured out why it's a bad idea to tie the parachute separately
[20:24] <fsphil> aye?
[20:24] <arko> head winds
[20:24] <arko> it will inflate the parachute
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> hburger, we once had a flight in Poland where someone drilled holes in a CD and then pulled the rises through
[20:25] <arko> and push it around X-Y more
[20:25] <fsphil> I've seen that happen arko, well heard -- you can hear it in the signal sometimes
[20:25] <arko> where the other way the parachute only inflates when going down
[20:25] <arko> yeah
[20:25] <arko> im going to do some tests when my parachutes arrive
[20:25] <fsphil> the other flaw is any wind on the ground will cause havoc
[20:25] <arko> different deployment methods
[20:26] <arko> yeah
[20:26] <fsphil> the chute on my last launch inflated and kept dragging the balloon down
[20:26] <arko> oh no
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> hburger, sorry for the barking earlier
[20:26] <arko> yeah
[20:26] <arko> this makes sense now
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> I'm just a physicist to be
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:26] <fsphil> although, attached at the top it might still inflate before launch
[20:27] <fsphil> depends how it's been tied
[20:27] <fsphil> hmm
[20:27] <fsphil> what we really need is a way to pack the chute until descent
[20:28] <nigelvh> Powder charges
[20:28] <Upu> Well I looked at that
[20:28] <Upu> using a small charge to fire the chute out
[20:28] <Upu> mainly an emergency shoot if the payload was coming down too quick
[20:29] <fsphil> that's not a bad idea
[20:29] <Upu> when someone was on about launching an EOS1D
[20:29] <fsphil> that's a bad idea :)
[20:29] <Upu> chute even
[20:29] <nigelvh> Just a cylinder with a small charge at the bottom, a blanket to protect the chute, the chute, and tape over the top.
[20:29] <Upu> just in a tube with one of the cutdown pyros at the end of it
[20:29] <nigelvh> It's very similar to what they do for rockets.
[20:30] <Upu> yep
[20:30] <nigelvh> Just instead of tape, there's a nosecone.
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> hburger, may I comment on the thing that some parent put ties on the parachute lines before going to the launch field?
[20:30] <meatmanek> are there pre-made cutdown pyros you can buy?
[20:31] <nigelvh> I'd just use rocketry e-matches and a little bit of black powder.
[20:32] <astrodog> Upu: In digging around, I saw a setup where the backup chute was actually in an A-class model rocket. (The idea being it'll pop the chute while not at terminal velocity if things go wrong.)
[20:32] <astrodog> Dunno if it ever got launched, though.
[20:32] <Upu> interesting however not sure we are allowed to do that
[20:32] <g0hww> a curiosity style lander would be neat, but scary
[20:33] <arko> that's my dream
[20:33] <arko> oh man
[20:33] <arko> i've always wanted to do an MER style landing
[20:33] <arko> airbags
[20:33] <arko> etc
[20:34] <Upu> you know I'm sure there is enough skill in this room to do that
[20:34] <arko> on earth that is
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[20:34] <arko> LETS DO THIS
[20:34] <fsphil> The MER airbag landing was seriously cool
[20:34] <astrodog> Upu: Might save me a DSLR. :P
[20:34] <g0hww> yeah, getting a balloon to mars would be difficult
[20:34] <Upu> lol
[20:34] <fsphil> I had that same "this is madness" moment about that when I first heard about the sky crane
[20:35] <nigelvh> Yeah
[20:35] <Upu> it won my coolest idea of the decade
[20:35] <arko> seriously
[20:35] <nigelvh> They used a rocket powered crane to lower a car onto another planet
[20:35] <fsphil> was it MER or Pathfinder that had the pyramid shaped lander?
[20:35] <nigelvh> How much cooler does it get?
[20:35] <arko> the team here is truely prillient
[20:35] <fsphil> so no matter what way it landed, it opened correctly
[20:35] <g0hww> especially with the track record of martian missions being pretty poor, they had some balls
[20:35] <Upu> I would have loved to be at that meeting
[20:35] <arko> it was tetrahydral
[20:35] <fsphil> I knew there was a proper word for it :)
[20:35] <arko> fsphil with pathfinder and opportunity it was base pedal down :P
[20:36] <astrodog> Upu: "So... stay with me... skycrane! We have a rocket... with a winch... no, stop laughing... the winch lowers it down..."
[20:36] <fsphil> I know!
[20:36] <fsphil> they never got to test it
[20:36] <fsphil> ah wait, Spirit landed sideways?
[20:36] <arko> EDL team is crazy smart though
[20:36] <arko> yeah
[20:36] <Upu> skycrane, nuclear power and to cap it off a frikken laser
[20:36] <arko> Spirit landed on pedal 2 i think
[20:36] <fsphil> I bet UKHAS together could make a great mars lander. we just need transportation
[20:37] <nigelvh> Yes, we can't forget the rock vaporizing laser on the nuclear powered rover lowered by a rocket propelled crane onto another planet.
[20:37] <fsphil> I do worry that we're giving Marvin ideas
[20:38] <hburger> haha, go ahead and comment, lunar_lander :)
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[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> hello GW8RAK
[20:39] <GW8RAK> Hi Lunar_Lander.
[20:40] <fsphil> curiosity will probably still be operating when that other rover lands in 2020
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> hburger, there was a german/french Direct-To-Home TV Satellite project called TV-SAT and TDS
[20:40] <Upu> Don't forget Oppy
[20:40] <nigelvh> With somewhat reduced power.
[20:40] <x-f> was jgrahamc serious about landing a rover in Iceland from a HAB?
[20:40] <fsphil> I seriously doubt Oppy will surive that long. but if it does, wow
[20:40] <fsphil> I'm building a rover at the moment :)
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> when TV-SAT 1 was prepared for launch, a technician removed a safety bolt from one of the solar panels and replaced it with the inflight model and put the safety bolt in the packaging of the inflight one
[20:41] <nigelvh> Oppy has the issues with it's wheel and arm joint, but seems to be otherwise healthy.
[20:41] <fsphil> with an RFM22B
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> then the shift was over and the new team came in
[20:41] <fsphil> which in theory could be relayed by radio from another HAB
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> and the technician then took the safety bolt out of the packaging and installed it back on the satellite
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> when TV-SAT 1 was launched, the solar panel was stuck in the closed position
[20:43] <meatmanek> woops.
[20:43] <fsphil> even satellite engineers are human :)
[20:45] <fsphil> I wonder if they'll ever try the Mars Microphone again
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> was there a reason they never did that again?
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[20:51] <fsphil> phoenix had one, but they didn't want to risk turning it on
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil, btw MER and Pathfinder both were pyramidal and landed on airbags
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> but on MER it was just a platform for the rover to drive off
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[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> what was risky on turning it on?
[20:53] <fsphil> there was a flaw in the descent camera
[20:53] <fsphil> which the microphone was attached to
[20:53] <fsphil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_%28spacecraft%29#Mars_Descent_Imager
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> at least the MARDI of Curiosity worked
[20:55] <fsphil> yep. had no mic sadly
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:55] <fsphil> would've been very nice to have heard the landing
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> actually at the german scienceblogs (IIRC) someone asked why they wont send (rough citation) "AN ONE EURO microphone that you can get at Saturn?"
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> (Saturn is a big electronics store in germany)
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[20:59] <fsphil> it would still cost lots to make hardware, launch and operate it
[21:00] <fsphil> and I suppose it's got little scientific value
[21:01] <x-f> all work and no play..
[21:01] <fsphil> we need a JPL insider to suggest a mic on the next lander :)
[21:02] <x-f> i think we have one already here, who works on Curiosity2
[21:05] <x-f> or maybe i've misunderstood him.
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[21:37] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0410/04noaanreport/
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> different safety bolt issue
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> sorry the image is somehow funny
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[22:01] <Upu> no parachute on CNSP...
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[22:04] <fsphil> that's a bit, bad
[22:04] <Upu> I just watched the video and couldn't see one
[22:04] <fsphil> maybe it was inside the balloon
[22:04] <Upu> nah
[22:04] <Upu> don't think so
[22:04] <Upu> I'll go back and have a look
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[22:06] <Upu> nope I don't see a parachute
[22:07] <arko> fsphil: trust me, this has been brought up a thousand times
[22:07] <arko> mics
[22:07] <fsphil> I don't doubt it arko
[22:08] <arko> x-f: correct
[22:08] <arko> we started "Curiosity 2" about a month or so ago
[22:12] <fsphil> Mars Science Armoured Tank
[22:12] <arko> hehe
[22:12] <fsphil> I wonder if it'll get there before Exomars
[22:13] <arko> i think the weirdest thing is going to be seeing msl in the spacecraft assembly facility again
[22:13] <arko> i got use to thinking that it's over
[22:13] <arko> and that it's on mars to never see again
[22:14] <fsphil> are they going for the same chassis?
[22:14] <arko> http://www.flickr.com/photos/arkorobotics/5794056369/in/photostream/
[22:14] <arko> yes
[22:14] <arko> <3 miss her
[22:15] <arko> it's sad, the saf is an empty clean room now
[22:15] <fsphil> she's back home :)
[22:15] <arko> indeed
[22:15] <fsphil> that's a very big room
[22:16] <arko> you aren't even looking at the half of it
[22:17] <arko> http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/images/PIA14126_SAF_MSL_20110512.jpg
[22:17] <arko> i was in that little box to the left
[22:17] <arko> very large clean room
[22:17] <fsphil> it's a lot busier there
[22:17] <arko> yeah
[22:17] <arko> i dont think i have any pictures of it empty
[22:18] <fsphil> the logos on the wall, all the mission assembled there?
[22:19] <arko> http://www.flickr.com/photos/missioncontrol/2037033852/lightbox/
[22:19] <arko> best i can do with "empty"
[22:19] <arko> yes
[22:19] <arko> thats everything that was built there
[22:19] <arko> it's probably the most famous and important building in jpl
[22:19] <arko> the vending machines in the back are full of tools
[22:19] <fsphil> was just gonna say, there's a lot of history gone through that room
[22:19] <arko> it's so cool
[22:19] <arko> yep
[22:20] <arko> Voyager was built in there
[22:21] <arko> http://www.tecca.com/pictures/jpl-nasa-open-house-misson-to-mars-in-pictures/3/
[22:21] <arko> more empty
[22:21] <arko> looks like that now
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[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> arko, do you really work at JPL?
[22:23] <fsphil> very cool. I see they do open days, will have to add that to my todo list
[22:23] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Daniels "[UKHAS] Certification"
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[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> so that is where they made Viking, Pathfinder, Galileo and so on?
[22:24] <arko> oh
[22:24] <arko> my
[22:24] <arko> god
[22:24] <arko> http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/image/images/assembly/unknwn49.gif
[22:24] <arko> i've never seen this picture thats amazing
[22:24] <arko> Lunar_Lander yes sir
[22:24] <arko> fsphil: yeah open house is sometime in May usually
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> AWESOME!
[22:25] <arko> Lunar_Lander: yes to both questions actually
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> the same windows!
[22:25] <arko> yeah!
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> and what is that Curiosity 2 thing?
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> do they really make another billion dollar rover?
[22:25] <griffonbot> Received email: Anthony Stirk "Re: [UKHAS] Certification"
[22:25] <arko> http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/image/images/assembly/unknownk.gif
[22:25] <arko> wow
[22:25] <arko> HiBay I looks so different
[22:25] <arko> yet the same
[22:26] <arko> yes, the current plan is to do a second mission with the same chassis and a few slightly different instruments
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[22:27] <arko> http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/image/images/assembly/unknown6.gif
[22:27] <arko> hahaha
[22:27] <arko> the magnetic coil!!
[22:27] <arko> this archive is amazing
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unnamed_2020_Mars_rover_mission
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> oh wait
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> in the second photo where you see the RTG
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> the thing below the struts
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[22:28] <griffonbot> Received email: CHRIS INWOOD "[UKHAS] Runtime_errorHTTP 403 when using the High Altitude Balloon variant"
[22:28] <arko> yeah
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> in the BBC series "The Planets" they showed that thing to be in golden foil
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> and that there was something in red below
[22:28] <arko> also yes, second MSL mission
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> looked almost like a lander or so
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> (of course Voyager didn't have one)
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> but what is it?
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> the interface to the last stage of the Titan?
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[22:28] <arko> which one?
[22:28] <__red__> hey guys
[22:29] <arko> supp
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> second picture, the shiny block under the struts
[22:29] <__red__> We just did our first launch and recovery a few weeks ago. About to plan payload #2 after lessons learned.
[22:29] <arko> interface
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:29] <__red__> APRS was useless for us in the final 6 miles due to dropping in an area with no digipeter coverage
[22:29] <arko> __red__: what was the failure?
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> and that Titan had five stages IIRC
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:30] <__red__> we needed a helicopter to sirvey the area to find it
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> had an extra stage for voyager
[22:30] <arko> yeah
[22:30] <arko> pretty crazy
[22:30] <arko> you weren't decoding yourself?
[22:31] <__red__> so, thinking of doing a CW beacon on 10m which will also send the GPS co-ords
[22:31] <__red__> arko: No, we focussed entirely on getting the balloon in the air. We barely planned for recovery :-)
[22:31] <__red__> arko: Mistake #1 :-)
[22:31] <arko> >_< doh
[22:31] <arko> hahaha
[22:31] <__red__> we did "Hey, that sounds like a good idea" to launch in 14 days.
[22:32] <__red__> with no-one there that had done it before
[22:32] <__red__> we're lucky :-P
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[22:32] <__red__> like I said, without the helicopter support we would have been hosed.
[22:33] <arko> how did you get a helicopter!?
[22:33] <arko> damn i need to hit up my pilot friends
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[22:34] <__red__> our local TV station approached us (a hackerspace) via twitter and simply said: "Wanna do a nearspace balloon? Launch in 2 weeks"
[22:34] <__red__> so we stole (borrowed) their traffic copter during the day ;-)
[22:35] <jcoxon> __red__, hehe
[22:35] <__red__> the TV coverage should be good
[22:35] <arko> __red__: are you guys reaction?
[22:35] <__red__> they filmed *everything*
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[22:36] <__red__> so, I kinda have a question
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[22:36] <__red__> looking for which band to use for CW telemetry
[22:36] <__red__> want a good strong groundwave so I'd obviously lean towards top-band
[22:36] <__red__> (160m)
[22:37] <__red__> but, the fcc regs appear to suggest that telemetry / one way comms are allowed only on 10m and higher
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> where are ypj?
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> oh
[22:37] <__red__> NC, USA
[22:37] <arko> red what hackerspace?
[22:37] <__red__> so looking for advice
[22:37] <__red__> Hackerspace Charlotte
[22:37] <__red__> hsclt.org
[22:37] <arko> oh cool
[22:37] <arko> i'm from Nullspace Labs in downtown Los Angeles
[22:38] <arko> we know a few of the folks in DC at Unallocated
[22:38] <arko> heard of the Charlotte space :)
[22:39] <__red__> arko: You should have heard of us, you're the reason we exist :-P
[22:39] <arko> we are?
[22:39] <__red__> yeah
[22:39] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Daniels "RE: [UKHAS] Certification"
[22:39] <arko> how?
[22:39] <__red__> 2 years ago I visited, went "That's fucking cool" and formed one here.
[22:39] <__red__> <-- noidd
[22:39] <arko> no way!
[22:39] <__red__> yeah
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[22:40] <arko> wait
[22:40] <arko> noid?
[22:40] <arko> you know noid?
[22:40] <__red__> noidd
[22:40] <arko> oh!
[22:40] <__red__> two d
[22:40] <__red__> different
[22:40] <arko> dude!!!
[22:40] <arko> small world
[22:40] <__red__> yeah
[22:40] <arko> nsl was a baby back then
[22:40] <arko> haha
[22:40] <__red__> malware night
[22:40] <arko> LOL
[22:40] <__red__> and people building proxmark on the back
[22:41] <__red__> chatting out back with a few folks
[22:41] <arko> frank2 spend all his time getting people installed
[22:41] <arko> dude, proxmark
[22:41] <arko> man
[22:41] <arko> this is taking me back
[22:41] <griffonbot> Received email: Alexei Karpenko "Re: [UKHAS] Runtime_errorHTTP 403 when using the High Altitude
[22:41] <arko> yeah we built those, and did a second run recently
[22:41] <__red__> so, I came back to Charlotte and set up a meetup.com meeting for 30 days out
[22:41] <arko> boards only
[22:41] <__red__> 60 people showed up
[22:41] <arko> :)
[22:41] <arko> so happy to hear this
[22:41] <__red__> around 40 people came back the next week and the week after
[22:42] <__red__> we had a space rented and a corp within 30 days.
[22:42] <arko> fantastic
[22:42] <__red__> the we won the element 14 hackerspace challenge
[22:42] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "Re: [UKHAS] Certification"
[22:42] <__red__> got a world record for the world's largest qr code
[22:42] <__red__> http://qr.hsclt.org/
[22:42] <arko> haha
[22:43] <arko> nice!
[22:43] <__red__> so yeah, see what you guys started :-)
[22:43] <arko> nah man, you guys rock for starting it his
[22:43] <arko> this*
[22:43] <arko> thats awesome
[22:45] <__red__> so we've done 3d printers, quadcopters
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[22:45] <__red__> we did the US's first Raspberry Pi in a middle-school
[22:46] <__red__> and now nearspaxe
[22:46] <__red__> which is starting to get some people interested in ham stuff
[22:47] <arko> nice
[22:47] <arko> quadcopters are fun
[22:48] <arko> we are doing a hab pretty soon ourselves
[22:48] <arko> the payload is being tested and the design is being revised
[22:48] <arko> getting chase vehicles geared up and trained, etc
[22:48] <arko> good times
[22:49] <__red__> yeah, can't underestimate the chase
[22:49] <__red__> we had one person with APRS gear in their vehicle
[22:49] <__red__> and they had to leave the chase area 20 mins early
[22:49] <__red__> next day, no signal
[22:51] <arko> aww man
[22:51] <arko> when we launched our first one, a year later i went looking for it on google maps
[22:51] <arko> no luck :(
[22:51] <__red__> was hoping to find an aprs decoder whihc we could plug HT's into
[22:51] <__red__> android
[22:51] <arko> still dream about the day that someone will call who found it
[22:51] <__red__> do you know roughly where it dropped?
[22:51] <arko> aprs decoders suck anyway
[22:51] <arko> Kingman, AZ
[22:52] <__red__> that;'s a long recovery for you guys
[22:52] <arko> yeah
[22:52] <arko> this time around we are much much more prepared
[22:53] <__red__> so, cheap aprs receivers and displays - open to suggestions
[22:56] <__red__> so, could I put my CW telemetry on 1.995Mhz for example...
[22:56] <__red__> who freaking knows
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[22:58] <__red__> it appears it's legal as long as it's a 2 way communication
[22:58] <__red__> so my balloon calls CQ and I respond :-P
[22:58] Action: __red__ shrugs
[22:58] <jcoxon> hehe
[22:58] <jcoxon> how big is the antenna...
[22:58] <__red__> http://www.ncvec.org/page.php?id=136
[23:01] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Daniels "RE: [UKHAS] Certification"
[23:04] <arko> __red__: we are planning on the byonics tracker as our primary radio (the one that can't fail) http://www.byonics.com/mt-rtg
[23:04] <__red__> well, for 160m I'd do a 330ft long whip :-)
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[23:05] <__red__> 10W is a lot of juice
[23:05] <__red__> we did 300mW :-P
[23:05] <__red__> and got complaints that we were congesting the aprs network
[23:05] <g0hww> how about a WSPR beacon?
[23:05] <__red__> my response was not popular
[23:06] <g0hww> my 5W signal was heard on the other side of the planet
[23:06] <g0hww> mind you, freq stability might be an issue
[23:06] <arko> haha
[23:06] <arko> what was your response?
[23:09] <__red__> It was in the air for two hours. So you couldn't track your friend who has aprs in his pizza delivery truck. Get over it
[23:09] <__red__> <-- asshole
[23:09] <__red__> it seems
[23:09] <g0hww> actually, wspr wouldn't be any good, due to the precision of the location report
[23:10] <__red__> so they ask that I not broadcast aprs when I'm in the air
[23:10] <__red__> or tickle a flag which says "don't digipeat" more accurately
[23:10] <__red__> so I'll likely do that next time
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[23:13] <nigelvh> What were your wide settings?
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[23:13] <__red__> wide settings?
[23:13] <nigelvh> Your APRS path
[23:13] <__red__> no clue
[23:13] <__red__> which was probably the problem
[23:14] <eroomde> all these american problems
[23:14] <__red__> didn't understand fully what the effect of the settings were on the wider network
[23:14] <nigelvh> Yeah, if the tracker was set up for something like a car, then it's far too wide for a balloon
[23:14] <eroomde> how wide to set your aprs so only 4235 people hear it instead of 67905
[23:14] <eroomde> so unfair
[23:15] <nigelvh> Generally the absoloute max you'd set your path to for something in flight is WIDE2-1 which limits to ONE digipeat, and not through fill in digis, only the main ones.
[23:16] <arko> __red__ hahaha nice
[23:16] <__red__> I don't know what it was set to. That's something to certainly work out the next time we do this
[23:17] <eroomde> if you want some fun or boredom as your taste defines, the gpsl mailing list around 2008
[23:17] <eroomde> v long debate about aprs settings
[23:17] <eroomde> i enjoyed it so much i almost unsubscribed
[23:22] <nigelvh> Yeah, it's a controversial topic. (Somewhat reasonably so. Adding hops adds exponentially to the load on the network.)
[23:23] <__red__> See, and there are two ways to look at that
[23:23] <__red__> 1) Purist.
[23:23] <__red__> 2) Pragmatist.
[23:24] <__red__> if you add up the amount of time that a balloon is broadcasting aprs over a section of the network, can't 30m -> 1hr of congestion be tolorated to increase the likelyhood of getting tracking data from something like a balloon?
[23:24] <nigelvh> Also, I wouldn't consider your balloon as an automatically controlled digital station.
[23:25] <__red__> nigelvh: yeah - unfortunatley it doesn't fit the criteria
[23:25] <__red__> nigelvh: either a beacon or telemetry
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[23:25] <__red__> which, if my reading of the rules read's correctly... means 10m and up only
[23:25] <nigelvh> I would consider the balloon a ground station (within 50km of earth) and transmitting telemetry under automatic control
[23:26] <nigelvh> As for the network tolerating congestion to increase likelyhood of getting tracking data, You're actually doing the opposite.
[23:27] <nigelvh> When you have a wide path, you're occupying more repeaters for greater lengths of time, which means that they're not going to be available to hear your next packet.
[23:27] <arko> anyone know a good source for 2CR5 battery holders?
[23:27] <nigelvh> Second, if it hits ANY repeater, even only one, generally there's an iGate available
[23:27] <__red__> this is all information I wish I knew
[23:28] <nigelvh> So, the best option is to set for a single hop. It minimizes load on the network, and time that the repeaters are busy, but maximizes you getting igated.
[23:28] <__red__> apfs.fi complained about a bad path for about 10 mins
[23:29] <nigelvh> Yeah, if APRS.fi finds you've got a rather wide path, then yes, it will complain.
[23:30] <arko> APRS SUCKS
[23:30] <nigelvh> It will particularly complain if you've set a wide path, but you're being igated off the first hop.
[23:30] <jonsowman> lol arko
[23:30] <nigelvh> That means you're just wasting resources.
[23:30] <arko> i need to buy aprssucks.com
[23:30] <__red__> arko: alternatives?
[23:30] <arko> rtty
[23:31] <arko> but you need your own ground stations
[23:31] <nigelvh> Yes
[23:31] <jcoxon> yeah but thats more fun...
[23:31] <arko> us people are lame
[23:31] <__red__> man, I worked rtty 20 years ago :-)
[23:31] <nigelvh> That's the issue. In the UK, there's a lot of available ground stations
[23:31] <arko> haha
[23:31] <jcoxon> and you can do cool stuff like ssdv
[23:31] <gonzo___> groundstations just appear. Just sow the seeds
[23:31] <nigelvh> In the US, APRS allows the same idea.
[23:31] <__red__> seriously, a PC XT, speaker in the front. Holding the microphone up to the PC speaker with USB
[23:31] <arko> personally, i would enjoy an angry letter from aprs people
[23:31] <arko> im cranking my hab to 35W
[23:31] <arko> i want new york to hear that im up in the air
[23:32] <gonzo___> I still have my mechanical teleprinter
[23:32] <__red__> 1993ish
[23:32] <arko> this is what happens why you design a poor system then expect people to play along
[23:32] <jonsowman> arko: australia will hear you at that rate
[23:32] <__red__> gonzo___: I loved mine, but I never managed to get it working with the TA
[23:32] <arko> people will try
[23:32] <arko> but some fool is going to launch something that doesn't comply
[23:32] <arko> then people bicker
[23:32] <arko> it's the same arguement with hacker
[23:32] <__red__> arko: You're applying your work criteria to amateur comms
[23:33] <arko> if shtuff doesn't work, fix it and improve
[23:33] <__red__> arko: they still use AX25 dude
[23:33] <arko> it's sad :(
[23:33] <arko> anyway
[23:33] <gonzo___> I ran my prototype HAB tracking TX on the teletype just for the fun of ot
[23:33] <arko> im turning of "rage mode" now
[23:33] <jonsowman> :)
[23:33] <__red__> I would love to do rtty
[23:33] <arko> same
[23:33] <__red__> wru rtty receiver on a droid phone
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[23:33] <arko> sadly i have to do aprs because everyone has the gear
[23:33] <__red__> that would rock
[23:33] <arko> and the coverage aint bad here
[23:33] <__red__> RYRYRYRYRYRYRY
[23:33] <__red__> ;-)
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[23:33] <nigelvh> I've used RTTY in the past, but as mentioned, it requires a certain investment of someone's time to track it.
[23:33] <arko> eroomde: any ideas on 2CR5 holders
[23:34] <arko> ?
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[23:34] <__red__> someone has to have written an audio RTTY decoder
[23:34] <jonsowman> fldigi forex?
[23:34] <gonzo___> in the UK we are limited to 10mW eirp for airborne tx
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[23:35] <gonzo___> so rtty works for us
[23:35] <eroomde> arko: without googling, have u checked that bulgin range?
[23:36] <gonzo___> quiet a good rtty groundstation network grown up in recent years
[23:36] <arko> yep
[23:36] <arko> first guys i cheked
[23:36] <arko> its cool, i can google too
[23:36] <arko> i was hoping you knew something other than bulgin
[23:36] <arko> thats all
[23:36] <nigelvh> I will freely admit I'm jealous of your ground station network
[23:36] <__red__> gonzo___: that's pretty cool
[23:36] <__red__> what about psk?
[23:36] <nigelvh> When I'm out launching it's just me and who I bring along
[23:36] <__red__> isn't that super-efficient with power?
[23:36] <nigelvh> Unless I use APRS
[23:37] <gonzo___> just on a tangent..... Anyone know what the thread spec is on the valve of these disposable He bottles?
[23:37] <nigelvh> Anyway, home time, I'll chat with you all later.
[23:38] <gonzo___> most of us are using off the shelf licence exempt TX modules which only allow FM
[23:38] <gonzo___> so we key them for a small deviation and rx them in SSB
[23:38] <gonzo___> psk would need a different approach on the TX
[23:40] <__red__> oh, so not even doing ham bands?
[23:41] <__red__> ISM frequencies?
[23:41] <gonzo___> we have an ism allocation in the middle of the 70cm band. So we can TX licence exemot, but still use std ham kit on rx
[23:42] <gonzo___> the AR licence here does not permit airborne operation
[23:42] <__red__> gonzo___: I used to be GW0TJO, a long time ago
[23:43] <gonzo___> so we are stuck with licence exempt. And even then we are stuck with 10mW, even where those allocations allow more.
[23:43] <__red__> at one point they allowed /AM operation
[23:44] <__red__> maybe you can get a license variation
[23:44] <gonzo___> Ah, g0nzo here.
[23:44] <__red__> has anyone tried to apply?
[23:44] <gonzo___> believe someone is enquiring at the mo
[23:45] <gonzo___> though you would be supprise how far 10mW goes. It's limited by the horison, rather than distance
[23:46] <__red__> I need to learn math
[23:46] <__red__> so, here is my math requirement
[23:46] <__red__> Given two Lat / Long / Altitudes. What's the Alt / Az I need to point
[23:46] <__red__> doing it with just Lat + Long is easy
[23:47] <__red__> Adding altitude makes it significantly harder
[23:48] <gonzo___> it gets more difficult with the size of the long depending on your lat.
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[23:48] <__red__> I'm only thinking a couple of hundred miles
[23:49] <gonzo___> though would the calcs be just the flat plane, than an additional elevation calc
[23:49] <__red__> think parabolic dish + groundstation for UHF
[23:49] <gonzo___> big dish
[23:49] <__red__> with a couple of hundred miles I may be able to ignore the curvature of the earth
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[23:51] <gonzo___> well, we find that with a HAB at an altitude of 40km, the range of the horizon still gives strong sigs. So much so, that even a colinear omni will work
[23:51] <gonzo___> even with out 10mW
[23:52] <__red__> I think you've just given me the answer I need
[23:52] <__red__> looks like I'll be writing some code this evening - thanks :-D
[23:53] <arko> is a dipole a bad idea for habs?
[23:53] <__red__> arko: I don't think so - what polorization?
[23:53] <__red__> also, what band
[23:53] <arko> 2 meter
[23:53] <arko> not sure on polorization
[23:54] <gonzo___> we are stuck with 70cm
[23:54] <__red__> you almost certainly want to go vertical
[23:54] <gonzo___> usually vertical pol, as it's more difficuly to make omni horisontal antennas
[23:55] <__red__> So, with a dipole your feed point is at the center
[23:55] <__red__> and your point of radiation is at the center
[23:55] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[23:55] <gonzo___> popular here is an inverted 1/4wave groundplane (the driven element pointing down below the balloon)
[23:55] <__red__> gonzo___: That's what I would do
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[23:56] <__red__> 5/8 whip hanging down. Radial groundplane at the feedpoint
[23:56] <__red__> then the transmission lobes will be omnidirectional but biased towards the ground
[23:57] <arko> hmm
[23:57] <gonzo___> a 1/4wave will have less gain. so less of a null in the downwards direction
[23:57] <arko> doesn't a dipole "donut"? so along the antennas axis and out is no signal
[23:57] <__red__> This, but upside down: http://www.moonraker.com.au/techni/9pt5mrp.jpg
[23:57] <__red__> yes
[23:58] <gonzo___> I thought 5/8thswould have more of a lobe towards the horizon?
[23:58] <arko> so you want the long antenna parallel to the ground
[23:58] <arko> --------
[23:58] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[23:58] <arko> not
[23:58] <arko> |
[23:58] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[23:58] <__red__> so all your RF is going http://www.moonraker.com.au/techni/multi-waverp.jpg
[23:58] <arko> ---------
[23:58] <arko> dipoles suck
[23:59] <arko> :/
[23:59] <__red__> arko: except when your antenna points at your ground station, you get no signal
[23:59] <__red__> with a horizontal dipole you'd get a vertical doughnut
[23:59] <gonzo___> you don't want ant real lobes. Almost isotropic, with a bias downwards is ideal. And lobes tend to result in bad flutter. especially after balloon burst
[00:00] --- Thu Dec 6 2012